Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:12:36 pm

Title: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:12:36 pm
Yo,Yaw,Wise Son,LovecraftyVic Vega,bluezulu,Curtis The Main Man Metcalf,and any other interested party...let us continue our discussion here and NOT pollute Jenn's thread with our talk.That's rude.Plus,Jenn ain't the Mistress of Mayhem for nothing,she'll mess around and pay a visit to us with a shottie,a MP-10,Lucia Rijker,the WNBA players,the Black GI JANE (call her GI TAMIKA,lol) and her crazy homegurl who climbed the fence to beat the holy bejabbers outta her drug-dealing boyfriend in tow.

So,get tuh postin and debating...CIVILLY.Thanx.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:31:36 pm
Just to bring us back up to speed,here's most of page 14 of Jenn's thread...

Honorary Wakandan

Posts: 1139


AKA Jimmy Matrix


      Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #195 on: Today at 07:27:36 AM » 

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Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to, but my keyboard broke last nigt (!?!) and I'm using my roommate's laptop, which makes long replies difficult.  I hope to have everything back to normal in a day or so, and will reply in greater length then.
This is a short reply?

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
The problem is that you've just cited four men from four entirely different countries seperated by vast distances in time.  What you're doing is comparing all of Europe, America and the Mediterranean to a small African nation.   None of the men you've mentioned could have made their discoveries without the discoveries of others, frequently from other cultures.  Western European scientists would have been lost without the accumulated knowledge of the Greeks, Romans, Phonecians, etc.  Newton could have never discovered his mathmatics without Arabic algebra.  It goes on and on.
This is assuming the Wakandans didn't a) Discover this for themselves, which is possible, and/or b) didn't have access to the same educational resources, through spies, or through capturing and examining explorers from the outside world.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
So, if we accept this as the case, then we're left with one inescable conclusion:  the Wakandans are not humans.  The simple fact is that no kingdom the size of Wakanda could produce so many geniuses in such a short period of time if the population was composed of normal humans.  This has nothing to do with race, but rather population size and density, and time.  People like Einstein and Newton occur only one out of every million people. 
A great many huge scientific advances come from non-geniuses discovering stuff by accident. Also, studying the history of science makes each discovery seem rather inevitable - a lot of Newton's discoveries were simultaneously discovered by other scientists. Newton did have the uncommon mind that allowed him to make connections others couldn't see, but those same discoveries would have been made eventually with or without him.
Also, you're obviously using '1 in a million' as an expression rather than a literal figure, but another little logic excercise to follow is: If Einstein or Newton had been raised in an environment that didn't give them access to mathematics and science, would they have made their discoveries? Obviously not. Using this principle, it becomes very likely that there are a great many potential geniuses out there and through history that never got the chance to use their talents. Genius is a large part luck, and I'm willing to accept that the Wakandans were lucky before I accept them being aliens.  If we presume Waknda was lucky in terms of resources and militarily strong, they could have created a society that allowed several potential geniuses to become actual geniuses, and give them the advances shown - from longbows to Kirby-weapons. And once an advance is made, it makes it more likely that the next advance will happen, and sooner.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
To achieve the level of sophistication that the Wakandans show in the 1800s, they would need a historical population much, much greater than than that of Europe, the Middle-East and America combined.  Additionally, they would need a society capable of supporting intellectuals.  This means they would need a large, industrial base of workers to provide the support structure necessary to free up the best and brightest to engage in exploration and discovery.  They would need an economy that was equivalent in scale to that of the European economy that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution.
Considering we can deal in 'plausible-fantasies', what about a communist-monarchy type society, where everyone works to the best of their abilities for the greater glory of the kingdom? Those that display intellectual gifts are channelled into those areas, and those that display more physically practical talents become workers. There is also the possibility of a certain amount of slave labour from captured invaders, but with Waknada's reputation, they'd probably be few and far between.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
Basically, if the Wakandans were as advanced as they are being portrayed, then they would have conquered the world a long, long time ago.  They would have had to, in order to fund the growth and development of their society.
To avoid using up all teir resources? Environmentally-friendly technology seem rather important to modern Wakandans, on a philosophical level, so perhaps they have always been consscious oftheir resources. If they observed the death of other great empires, they may have tried to identify what caused it (beyond 'the Gods were angered'), and tried to adapt their society to persevere.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
What Mr. Hudlin has done is create a society that defies all rational explanation, a society that simply cannot exist in the real world.  There is no possibility that we would ever find a small, isolated population group that was signifigantly more advanced than the most advanced nations in the world.
It seemed to work fine for the Atlanteans and Inhumans.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This is why Wakanda doesn't make sense.  If it's far in advance of the rest of the world, then it should be larger and more powerful than the rest of the world.
Not expanding means that thery can keep their need for resources more constant (possibly through som eform of population control - I don't think all of the previous kings were as ethical as T'Challa and his Dad), and they are more powerful than the rest of the World. They just don't feel the need to show it off.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak.  Each of those men wer born and raised in socities that had no super-technology.  Each of those men were progenitors of super-technology.  T'Challa, conversely, was born into a society that had developed super-technology hundreds of years before he was born.  T'Challa my be a genius, but he can never qualify as a super-genius, because he comes from a society where super-technology already is commonplace.  To qualify as a super-genius, one must be a progenitor of super-technology.
So, in a super-technological society, there can be no super-geniuses?

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
(Some people seem to be confused by my use of these terms.  In the Marvel Universe, a super-genius is a person who is a progenitor of super-technology.  Super-technology is, in turn, technology that does not and cannot exist in the real world: anti-grav cars (such as the one T'Challa invented and impressed Reed with in FF #52, a story Hudlin has completely ignored and destroyed), force fields, time machines, featherweight metals harder than steel, etc.)
Why has FF #52 been ignored and destroyed? T'Challa hasn't been shown meeting the FF a different way, so it still happened, so T'Challa still built the anti-grav car, so T'Challa is still a super-genius. Also, the armour T'Challa used when fighting Doom cannot be built in the real world. Light-weight metal armour that can disappear underneath cloth and spring out at a moment's notice, also with the hint of an on-board integrated electronics (OBIE ) system? Not real, my friend, otherwise we'd all have one. T'Challa = super-genius, by your own definition.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This also raises the question of why T'Challa was educated in the west.  Coming from Wakanda, it makes no sense for T'Chaka to have sent his son to the west to be educated.  That would be like Donald Trump sending his children to a one-room schoolhouse in the poorest regions of Mexico to get an education.  Why would anyone disadvantage their child so?  Wakanda is so clearly far in advanced of the West that T'Challa would get an incredibly sub-pat education there -- he would be effectively an imbecile in a society of geniuses.  Unless of course Hudlin has rewritten the past to remove that aspect of the character (which in turn destroys the integrity of a great many other tales, including things written by Kirby, MacGregor, and Priest).
I think T'Challa attended school in the West, but after being schooled in Wakanda (building the afore-mentioned armour as a child implies he was getting serious Wakandan schooling). I think in this interpretation, it was more of a cultural education - the fact that T'Chaka met with the Bilderberg group implies he was planning to break with Wakanda's isolationist traditions, and he possibly intended for T'Challa to get some schooling overseas to better understand the outside world - it was education for T'Challa as a future king, rather than as a scientist. There - Hudlin is intact, and so is Priest, Macgregor, et al.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This is basically why I wish Marvel would fire Hudlin and get him off the series.  He has absolutely no respect for the fact that the Marvel Universe is a shared universe that existed long before he was on the scene.  And he keeps making these changes that have these snowball effect that turns the entire Black Panther mythos -- and in turn parts of the Fantastic Four and Avengers mythos -- into nonsense.   There are stories in which T'Challa meets up with ex-college girlfriends, for example, that now make no sense at all because it's utterly silly to suggest that a super-advanced society would send it's children off to be educated by primitives.

The only contradictions come from the first arc which was written originally as a stand-alone mini, not fully in-continuity - a Hudlinverse, if you will. Even then, the contradictions are minor, the only one that's really hard to reconcile is at what stage T'Challa joins the Avengers, most of the others can be no-prized away. From issue #7 onwards, it's hard to find anything in BP that contradicts continuity.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
He may not have said "White fans" (though it was certainly implied),
Wait, even though you didn't have a link, I'd thought you were directly quoting. Seriously, try to find an actual direct quote or let this go. Lots of people have looked for a direct quote of Reggie calling White fans racist, from before HEF1.0 was destroyed, and it was never out there, although they all swore blind it was. As for implications, Reggie and others have stated quite plainly that some fans, White and otherwise, have issues with a strong, Black portrayal of Panther, but no one has ever said that every complaint comes from that motivation, or that every White fan is like this. Lots of people did react to this as if it was a blanket condemnation of every White person, or every person who didn't like Hudlin's Panther, but that was over-reaction, plain and simple.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
I remember it quite strongly, because it was upon reading that comment that I made my decision to never buy another Hudlin penned comic again.
All power to you, but IMHO, it's your loss.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
And as a white guy who cites "Soul on Ice" as one of the most important books he's ever read, I took a bit of offense to the fact that Hudlin was dismissing legitimate fan concerns by accusing every white guy who disagreed with him of being a closet racist.  That's irresponsible, dismiissive, and speaks volumes about Mr. Hudlin's ego

It also didn't happen. But hey, what's that really matter? 
 
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Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:36:51 pm
Quote
All in all, I think this convo is moot.  The fact remains that this is a fictional nation that doesn't exist.  And while you say that alien technology can only explain Wakandan technology you are partially right.  Wakanda is highly advanced because of an alien mineral that their nation was founded on.  That is the key element that you are missing in all of this.  Their advanced technology extends from their study of vibranium.  They have known it contains special properties since the beginning of the civilization.  You are also forgetting that the Wakandan nation is 10000 years old.  THERE IS NO HOMOSAPIEN CIVILIZATION THAT IS KNOWN TO HAVE LIVED THAT LONG IN REALITY. Thus due to the age and years of study of vibranium, Wakandans should be effing ETERNALS by now.

Okay.  I still think it's ridiculous and completely unbelievable, but whatever.  A 10,000 year old civilization more advanced than any on Earth, that is still mired in primitive tribalism, xenophobia, and isolationism?  Sorry, i just don't buy it.

You are terrible. I'm done here because you just played yourself.  First you come to this post discussing how terrible Hudlin is for destroying the character now you are saying that you can't accept the original premise of the character which you call "ridiculous and completely unbelievable" but yet it predates Hudlin.  THe "history of Wakanda is the history of vibranium," those are Jack Kirby's words.  This means that Wakanda was founded on the study, cultivation, and use of the most advanced metal in the world.  You can't believe in the existence of a machine that causes guns to blow up but you fail to realize that the fictional nation was born out of the use of a metal that does not exist. It is not suppose to make sense in a real world setting because it is a fictional metal.  Please get that through your head.  

The fact that you refuse to excuse Wakanda for what it is really brings into play the most logical reason why a Westerner can't accept an African nation being more advanced than any Western nation independent of Western knowledge.  A guiding savior that is a super-genius through the teachings of the Western world that brings the light to his dark nation is easily acceptable.  A noble chieftain who bridges his ancient highly independent and arrogant nation to the outside world bringing it within the gloabal community is totally unbelievable despite the fact that the nation itself is 10000 years old (older and longer lasting than any currently known civilization) and explicitly based on a mineral that is not only foreign to Earth but possesses qualities that no known mineral possesses.  

This is another reason why race issue comes into play.  For some reason people make unreasonable complaints about Hudlin but in reality the issue is with the character itself.  you can blame Hudlin all you want but the real issue you are having predates him.  Anyways, I'm done here because you have proven that a discussion with you is pointless.    
 
 
 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:38:12 pm
Sr. Member

Posts: 259


     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #201 on: Today at 11:34:47 AM »   

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Quote from: Yaw on Today at 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: Vic Vega on Today at 09:52:10 AM



Let me get this straight.

We're talking about the genre with teleporting dogs and flying men in spandex and you have a problem with accepting the technical superiority of an African nation-state(Wakanda)!!!

But the guy who can fly by means of tiny little wings on his ankles I assume you have no problem with.

Is the concept of African hyper-technical advancement due to a colonialism-free enviroment more bizarre that the guy who turns green when you piss him off?     

Its easier for you to believe that one man single-handedly dragged an entire pre-technological nation into the 22 Century in around 10 years than just being the advanced product of an advanced society?   

What?  Was T'Challa commisioning and designing publics works project at the age of 10?

Fantasy Africans developing lasers in the 1800? Absurd.

Flying men in Spandex? That works for you, though.

Jesus.


His comments are reflective of the underlying belief and practice of African/Black inferiority of American institutions.  This is practiced in all American insitutions and affects all races of people.  He only reacting to what he's been taught.  This is one of the reasons I don't believe a movie on Black PAnther could or would ever be successful.   Calling a fictional character "unbelievable" in a comic world is simply ridiculous.  Black superiority independent of Western intervention is too unbelievable to suspend one's belief.


Unfortunately,there is a great deal of truth in these posts,as the underlying premise that formed the indoctrination for these kinds of arguments have been taught far and wide as the gospel truth for many centuries now...so even the most well-meaning of people are affected by the insidious lies of amoral power mad imperialists. whom dominate the world society.I don't particularly think that lovecrafty is himself an advocate of racism...however,I find his arguments to be steeped in the common theme of intellectual denigration of Black people,with Wakanda as the example of such.I think the proper approach here is to provide empirical data from primary sources,or else this discussion could conceivably drag on interminably.Therefore,my next posts will be devoted to providing said empirical data. I believe that lovecrafty may very well be swayed by the presentation of this information,as he seems to be a man of reason whom is actively attempting to acquire knowledge,and has acquired knowledge already which he seeks to employ and bring to bear in the relevant discussions.I think both you,Vic,and you,Yaw,have made posts worthy of signification consideration and reflection.What shall follow will be one of my better examples of empirical data permanently resolving any and all of the questions previously asked,by all parties.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:39:09 pm
Full Member

Posts: 211


Brother Voodoo- The Foundation


    Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #202 on: Today at 11:56:47 AM » 

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Quote from: supreme illuminati on Today at 11:34:47 AM
Quote from: Yaw on Today at 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: Vic Vega on Today at 09:52:10 AM



Let me get this straight.

We're talking about the genre with teleporting dogs and flying men in spandex and you have a problem with accepting the technical superiority of an African nation-state(Wakanda)!!!

But the guy who can fly by means of tiny little wings on his ankles I assume you have no problem with.

Is the concept of African hyper-technical advancement due to a colonialism-free enviroment more bizarre that the guy who turns green when you piss him off?     

Its easier for you to believe that one man single-handedly dragged an entire pre-technological nation into the 22 Century in around 10 years than just being the advanced product of an advanced society?   

What?  Was T'Challa commisioning and designing publics works project at the age of 10?

Fantasy Africans developing lasers in the 1800? Absurd.

Flying men in Spandex? That works for you, though.

Jesus.


His comments are reflective of the underlying belief and practice of African/Black inferiority of American institutions.  This is practiced in all American insitutions and affects all races of people.  He only reacting to what he's been taught.  This is one of the reasons I don't believe a movie on Black PAnther could or would ever be successful.   Calling a fictional character "unbelievable" in a comic world is simply ridiculous.  Black superiority independent of Western intervention is too unbelievable to suspend one's belief.


Unfortunately,there is a great deal of truth in these posts,as the underlying premise that formed the indoctrination for these kinds of arguments have been taught far and wide as the gospel truth for many centuries now...so even the most well-meaning of people are affected by the insidious lies of amoral power mad imperialists. whom dominate the world society.I don't particularly think that lovecrafty is himself an advocate of racism...however,I find his arguments to be steeped in the common theme of intellectual denigration of Black people,with Wakanda as the example of such.I think the proper approach here is to provide empirical data from primary sources,or else this discussion could conceivably drag on interminably.Therefore,my next posts will be devoted to providing said empirical data. I believe that lovecrafty may very well be swayed by the presentation of this information,as he seems to be a man of reason whom is actively attempting to acquire knowledge,and has acquired knowledge already which he seeks to employ and bring to bear in the relevant discussions.I think both you,Vic,and you,Yaw,have made posts worthy of signification consideration and reflection.What shall follow will be one of my better examples of empirical data permanently resolving any and all of the questions previously asked,by all parties.


But what empirical data?  There is nothing that you can post to convince him otherwise.  Using real-world theories to prove an obviously fictional premise is an argument in futility.  The fact remains that the original writers made based a fictional nation on an imaginary substance and made said nation over 6000 years older than any known society.  We are talking about a long continuous history of people that have never been conquered.  There is simply no real-world precedence there.  IF he can't accept those two bases then he simply can't accept the story for what it is.  My only issue here is that he is trying to use those premises as a reason to find fault with Hudlin's work.  He can talk about lack of continuity and his dislike for Hudlin's storytelling style all day and I won't argue with him.  However the issues that he brings up have nothing to do with Hudlin and everything to do with the character and his history.

Oh BTW, the historical inaccuracies by lovecrafty are his erroneous arguments about when the Industrial REvolution occurred in relation to the scene in BP #1 where the White men go to Wakanda to invade it but have their guns blown up in their faces.
 
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Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:40:09 pm
 
 
supreme illuminati
Sr. Member

Posts: 261


     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #207 on: Today at 02:49:53 PM »   

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Let us begin with a fact that many of us HEFfers have not specifically stated because to us this fact is a given,but to many of RH's detractors it is an issue of the most intense dispute,and that fact is: RH BP IS THE BLACK PANTHER.By Marvel's own acknowledgement and support,RH IS WRITING THE DEFINITIVE BP.Whatever has gone before,where it contradicts RH BP,RH BP takes precedence.If you have any doubt of this,then I suggest you re-read the solicitations for BP after it was transformed from the miniseries it was initially planned to be into an ongoing monthly.Prior to RH BP becoming a series,as was pointed out earlier in an excellent post by either Yaw or Wise Son,RH BP was happening in what amounted to a self-contained Hudlinverse.There have been quite plausible explanations for the existence of two Ebony Blades as well,and these explanations have been given by industry insiders.Recall that the answers to many issues of seeming contention have been answered in the series itself,and RH is constrained on various points not to give answers to certain questions or fully rebut certain previously popular erroneous conclusions due to the need to prevent spoilers.Therefore,we cannot proceed in a definite manner toward complete resolution until we consciously acknowledge what we already know to be fact already.

With those basics out of the way,allow me to directly dispel several issues of contention rather simply:

Quote from lovecrafty:
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak...

Response from Yaw:

That is fine.  I never viewed T'Challa in such a light personally.  This is probably because I read all of the old versions of the character after Priest's run.  So to say that Hudlin has made him less or that Hudlin is ignoring the FAntastic Four introduction, you are erred...

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


It is unfortunate that you have stopped reading RH BP for two reasons: One,it means that you are literally speaking in ignorance about a book when you haven't the data to substantiate your claims.THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE SHARED COMMONALITY OF HUDLIN DETRACTORS,THEY DON'T READ THE BOOK AND MAKE CLAIMS AS IF THEY DO.This isn't a diss. If you had known what you were talking about,you would NEVER HAVE SAID THIS:

Quote
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak..."

Because RH literally devotes issue #19,to disproving this by having BP outduel DOOM technologically.Furthermor,it was established that BP developed light armor while 12 years old--a preteen--and DOOM didn't perform that task until DOOM reached 15 years of age.This issue being cited is especially apropos,because DOOM makes a comment that Wakandans must be the exception to the rule about Africans,by implying that the intellectual prowess of Wakandans is an aberration...and hypothesizes that there might be a low-grade mutant strain amongst Wakandans that delivers them from the intellectual basement that most Africans are permanently assigned to.BP then counters with (a historically rigorously proven fact) the statement that Africans have been charting stars while Europeans were literal cavemen,and DOOM replies:"Oooh,hit a sore spot have I,TChalla?" DOOM's comments and argument presage your argument about Wakandans being "other than human." Therefore,we have proof of TCHALLA's super-intellect by contrast and comparison...he literally outperformed one of the men whom you claim to be a super-genius and flatly stated BP was not on par with.And this reenforces my point about being conversant with the material before you make blanket statements.

REASON NUMBER TWO THAT YOU SHOULDNT'VE STOPPED READING RH'S BP BEFORE SLAMMING IT:

In the issue #21,the Sub-Mariner clearly stated that TCHALLA's grandfather and father foresaw the future..the coming of the Cold War,Namor's attck on the surface world superheroes and the way the world would change because of it,including the conflict between superteams nad insecure human governments...and planned accordingly.

ON WAKANDA

I quote THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,pg. 146-47:

"I am saying that the Blacks not only seemed to have lost the grand vision of the future,but also (what should have been) the unforgettable lessons of the past.The pattern of Caucasion conquest had been cut out and made clear throughout 37 centuries of their history.After they had allowed the Asians ( these are the White Asians,aka Arabs.<--Supreme Illuminati's point of clarification) to infiltrate and then overrun all of Lower Egypt,the Blacks drew a firm boundary line between the Two Lands beyond which the whites were not allowed to settle.Those were the days when the Africans were not so trusting that they were not unable to perceive that the Caucasians were eternally restless unless they were the masters of every situation whatsoever.They were therefore barred from settlement in Black Upper Egypt until Narmer and Menes united Lower and Upper Egypt (thereby returning Egypt to its original Black African inhabitanats...again,my emphasis.SUPREME ILLUMINATI).If there was every a Pyrrhic victory in history,it could not have been more disastrous than that of Menes over the Asians in 3100 B.C.,because the decline of Black civilization,not only throughout Egypt but throughout Africa,can be traced to that period despite all of its monumental achievements afterwards.The termites of its destruction,slow but steady,had been sown under the laudable dream of black-white brotherhood.The long,drawn out process of penetration and eventual domination was both visible and invisible.Yet from these tiny footholds,the Asian population grew and grew until the Blacks were not only outnumbered by Asians but overwhelmed. Substantially,the same pattern was followed throughout every town,city and village throughout Egypt.

The record of the 5,000 years that ended with the European conquest of the whole continent in the nineteenth century shows that every African state remained relatively secure and independant as it maintained a strict policy of exclusion of foreigners from settlement within its borders.This same record makes it clear that whenever the policy was abandoned and Eurpeans were admitted under any pretext whatsoever,the eventual doom of that state was certain..."

It is this record--now let me emphasize that there are RECORDS of this,clearly demonstrating that the aggressors were the Asians and the Europeans,not initially the Africans--it is this same record which Wakanda was presumably aware of,and which Jenn was referring to when she pointed out that we Blacks have been our own worst enemy by basically not taking offense to and becoming offensive with those whom have displayed hostility toward Blacks wherever we reside.Well,it can be easily inferred,the Wakandans not only held to that record,but they also very rapidly reached the conclusion that they couldn't forever prevent the outside world from noting their presence at some time,so they did what more than 5000 years of their history told them they must do:


1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...and all backed by the most inarguable real world science and historical facts.

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it.



TCHALLA'S EDUCATION ABROAD


Very simply answered.He was going to be King,therefore he had to become conversant with the kinds of people whom he had to protect his world (Wakanda) against,and with whom he would be compelled to be proactive with,interactive with,and reactive to...whether friend,foe or indifferent. The international excursion under the "cover" of higher education is part and parcel of the plans of his grandfather,father and himself.Again,the fact that BP is indeed an Avenger,and the fact that the PRIEST exlanation for BP's actions hasn't been retconned is completely made obvious in the books you have failed to read,thereby exposing your literal ignorance and imploding your contentions along these issues.Again,this isn't a diss...it's a correction. This also is implied in BP#21 in his conversation with Namor...and again this leads us back to the fallacy of denigrating a writer and material that you haven't become familiar with and whom you can't properly quote when it comes to a quote that offended you in the first place and lead to your decision not to pick up his material thenceforth.

Btw,I don't think it's cooler of TCHALLA to have singlehandedly created the entirety of Wakandan advanced technology...I find that to be insulting both to Africa (Wakandans were xenophobic backward tribesmen until they sent one of their number to be educated by White folks,and lo...he returns,bearing the manna of White Man Knowledge,and then uses it as a springboard to revolutionize ignorant tribesmen...all to the awed:"ooogah boogahs!" of the backward Wakandans) and overly arrogant of the Western powers.Every other race and country can find it within themselves to advance and not be gainsayed,however fantastic the explanation (DOOM,by the way,could be looked at as continuing the line of super-intellects like TONY STARK,REED RICHARDS,THE LEADER,Einstein,Nobel,Hawkins,et al. TCHALLA would have sprung full grown from an area misrepresented as being devoid of intellectual ability,and TCHALLA would only be molded and stimulated intellectually by White genius,and would go on to be defeated by every White male superhero and most of his villains under the pens of everyone not named D-MAC,PRIEST,or RH...and you think that this is COOLER than our current version of BP,wherein TCHALLA is infinitely more respected,a major player in the MU,more powerful by utilizing the resources of an extraordinary Wakanda combined with his own supergenius,and he puts down the onehittaquitta on people like KARNAK and beheads SABERTOOTH? He slices TONY STARK out of his armor,out thinks DOOM,leads a team of Black superheroes to defeat the vamps,and  he's NOT AS COOL as the guy who gets his ass kicked and dragged away in almost every figh OF HIS OWN SERIESt,stays in the back of the Avengers' pictures,never uses in fights the very same advanced technology that you laud him for creating and which he dispenses without a thought to his super comrades,loses to every white male superhero every time they cross swords,and whom relies on outworlders to educate him when he's descended from the people who CREATED education? Okay,we have very divergent opinions here,lol).

I believe I have covered every salient issue that you have raised.Between this point and my lengthy post a few pages back,literally every question you have posted has been factually answered.Now the only questions left are: would you accept this data as true and incontrovertible? And do you have other questions that aren't the ones that you have already asked?

In closing,I have to belabor the obvious: THIS IS A COMIC BOOK THEREFORE THE WAKANDANS ARE OF COURSE "FANTASTIC" IN THE FICTITIOUS SENSE OF THAT WORD.If your requirement for a "fantastic explanation" is all  that you needed to annoint the Wakandans with in order to "credit" them,then the very fact that they exist nowhere else except on the pages of a comic book should have sufficed so thoroughly that it shouldn't've been a point of contention at any time.But real world history makes them seem a little less fantastic,when one is aware of it...
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:01:12 PM by supreme illuminati »  Report to moderator    72.197.145.21 
 
 
 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 05:46:04 pm
I await your replies with interest,Lovecrafty...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Open palm on December 19, 2006, 06:45:12 pm
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.

Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakandan culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures. Take for example, Superman. If Planet Krypton was so advanced, deemed itself to superior, why didn't they conquer Earth? Any Age version knew of its existence. Kryptonians could enjoy great powers under a yellow sun. And yet, in the Modern Age, we're to believe they stopped space travelling and isolated themselves? They even modified their DNA to make it impossible to survive outside of Krypton. It sounds like nonsense, but we were supposed to accept that. We're also expected to believe in Superman's American upbringing ensured his moral fortitude. But with American pop culture it's easier to believe it.  So thank you Ma an Pa Kent. You raised him well.

Then there is DC's Themyscira. How could we believe a group of Amazons could repel a Greek army led by Herakles, son of Zeus? In the Silver Age version how could we believe they'd have a Science Island with advanced technology? How can we believe the Modern version has a cure for cancer, but does not wish to share it? How can we believe they enjoy paradise without men? Maybe some don't buy into it, but it's never become a major debate.

We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different. 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 08:02:04 pm
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.

Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakandan culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures. Take for example, Superman. If Planet Krypton was so advanced, deemed itself to superior, why didn't they conquer Earth? Any Age version knew of its existence. Kryptonians could enjoy great powers under a yellow sun. And yet, in the Modern Age, we're to believe they stopped space travelling and isolated themselves? They even modified their DNA to make it impossible to survive outside of Krypton. It sounds like nonsense, but we were supposed to accept that. We're also expected to believe in Superman's American upbringing ensured his moral fortitude. But with American pop culture it's easier to believe it.  So thank you Ma an Pa Kent. You raised him well.

Then there is DC's Themyscira. How could we believe a group of Amazons could repel a Greek army led by Herakles, son of Zeus? In the Silver Age version how could we believe they'd have a Science Island with advanced technology? How can we believe the Modern version has a cure for cancer, but does not wish to share it? How can we believe they enjoy paradise without men? Maybe some don't buy into it, but it's never become a major debate.

We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different. 


That is a helluva post,Open Palm...I think I can guess some of Lovecrafty's response,but it will be interesting to read his thoughts about the issue anyway.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 08:10:17 pm
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.


The excuse "It's a comic book." might have been acceptable when the average comic book reader was a ten year old kid spending his dollar allowance on comics, but the modern comic book reader -- who is generally an adult -- demands a higher level of sophistication than that.  At $3/32 pages, I think it's fair to have some expectation

Quote
Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakanda's culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.

Basically we have to accept the idea that Wakanda is full of inquisitive, daring people who aren't curious about the world outside them, aren't entrepreneurial, and that -- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture.  And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.

Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation.  The Inhumans were contacted by aliens and given alien technology and wisdom, essentially advanced by outsiders, and have only stagnated since.  The Eternals were created by the Celestials, and haven't changed at all in their whole existence.  The Atlanteans were the dominant superpower of the Atlantean Age, which means they've been around for tens of thousands of years (making the Wakandans seem young in comparison).  The Atlanteans have also been in a slow inexcorable decline for thousands of years, and are a slowly dying race.  K'un L'un is a city displaced in time, and also has a stagnant, unprogressing culture.

Quote
I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures.

I'm more or less unfamiliar with the DC universe.  I only read Marvel comics, and a few Indies.  A large part of that is that I have found DC comics that I have read, with few exceptions, to be really stupid and hard to get into (also I loathe Batman).  My response to your examples is basically "Yeah, I agree.  DC is stupid."

Quote
We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different.

Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.  Now, this is not retroactive continuity, this is a retroactive alteration. 

Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 09:14:39 pm
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: kitamu Re on December 19, 2006, 10:03:23 pm
Quote
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.


you sound european or caucasian..or more aptly a wolf in sheeps clothing..me personally I prefer the strormfront troopers to the rockefellers..it's always nice to know the ingerdeients I am cooking with ;D
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 10:11:50 pm
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.

I would strongly disagree that you have answered any of concerns conclusively.  To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your argument at all.  What historical examples did you cite?  Is the book you quoted an actual scholarly work?  Because the language in that quote is very...cranky.  Kooky?  Some quick internet research indifcates that it is not historically accurate, and is more polemic than genuine description of history.  One review of the book had this interesting comment to make: "Finally, Chancellor Williams can't bring himself to admit the simple truth as to why ancient African civilizations collapsed: they collapsed for the same reason all the others did--they overextended themselves, grew decadent, and left themselves wide open for invaders. Williams insists that the blacks were too trusting of outside forces. But the same could be said about the Romans trusting the barbarians (whom they allowed into their armies) who eventually destroyed Rome."  Other comments indicate that much of Williams research is unverifiable, and that his claims can't be checked due to poor annotation.

You're not really talking about "real world history" when you cite books like, anymore than feminists are talking about real history when they cite Mary Daly (the woman who invented the term "The Burning Times", she claims that 9 million women were killed in the 14th-16th century in Europe in witch burnings, though all other research places the number at closer to 150,000). You're talking about an agenda driven polemic, which is quite different than real history.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 10:13:33 pm
you sound european or caucasian..or more aptly a wolf in sheeps clothing..me personally I prefer the strormfront troopers to the rockefellers..it's always nice to know the ingerdeients I am cooking with ;D

I'm of Scottish descent, but I'm an American, not a European.  I don't know how one would "sound caucasian".
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 10:26:38 pm
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.

I would strongly disagree that you have answered any of concerns conclusively.  To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your argument at all.  What historical examples did you cite?  Is the book you quoted an actual scholarly work?  Because the language in that quote is very...cranky.  Kooky?  Some quick internet research indifcates that it is not historically accurate, and is more polemic than genuine description of history.  One review of the book had this interesting comment to make: "Finally, Chancellor Williams can't bring himself to admit the simple truth as to why ancient African civilizations collapsed: they collapsed for the same reason all the others did--they overextended themselves, grew decadent, and left themselves wide open for invaders. Williams insists that the blacks were too trusting of outside forces. But the same could be said about the Romans trusting the barbarians (whom they allowed into their armies) who eventually destroyed Rome."  Other comments indicate that much of Williams research is unverifiable, and that his claims can't be checked due to poor annotation.

You're not really talking about "real world history" when you cite books like, anymore than feminists are talking about real history when they cite Mary Daly (the woman who invented the term "The Burning Times", she claims that 9 million women were killed in the 14th-16th century in Europe in witch burnings, though all other research places the number at closer to 150,000). You're talking about an agenda driven polemic, which is quite different than real history.

lovecrafty,here you are being hamstrung by your honest lack of knowledge about the area of scholarship here,because every single one of CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' points are not only annotated--I have them right here in front of me--very little of it is different from the discoveries of other scholars.In fact,MUCH OF ITS EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED IN THE SCHOLARSHIP OF OTHERS WHOM DRAW EXTREMELY DUBIOUS CONCLUSIONS.The persons whom decry Chancellor's work are the same people whom have insisted that there was Caucasian influence guiding Egyptian culture,utterly ignoring these salient facts because acknowledging them would implode the widely held position of Caucasian superiority and anteriority at that time:

1) Egypt is older than every single Caucasian civilization,therefore they COULD NOT be affected by an a priori Caucasian civilization
2) Egypt was a part of the Ethiopian civilization for much of its existence,tying it permanently to Black Africa.
3) Lastly,over the last 30 years,there wasn't a single statement that Chancellor made that hasn't been verified over and over again.

Please have a care as to whom you credit for accurate scholarship,lovecrafty.DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' book was literally ahead of its time,and the detractors are simply individuals whom support the notion that CHANCELLOR said something that he didn't say.If they read the book--and just as importantly,if YOU read the book--you would see that CHANCELLOR isn't being cranky,he's simply being honest.When others invade your homeland and follow a distinct and clearly discernable pattern,it's HONEST SCHOLARSHIP if you point it out as such.I might remind you that this approach lead directly to the "divide and conquer" approach and the "priests first,guns next" approach that Europe used to conquer nonwhites the world over.Chancellor lays plenty of blame at the feet of Black leaders as my excerpt of his work shows,but he DOES NOT allow the shoddy scholarship that would opine that Whites were in Africa prior to Blacks to continue with the preposterous conclusions that they have used to pool the wool over the eyes of most of the world.This is not kooky.What would be kooky is the ridiculous belief that many Whites held and STILL hold about Egypt being in the Middle East,and the Pharoahs being anything other than Black.

The situation for Blacks in Africa is NOTHING like the situation in Rome.No Romans or Caucasians were targeted by another race as their sole source of slaves.This should be so transparently obvious that to even intimate anything like what the reviewers you quote wrote should make you INSTANTLY SUSPICIOUS OF THE REVIEWERS,NOT CHANCELLOR...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 10:28:54 pm
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

Furthermore,I don't understand your contention that "it's just a comic book" is an EXCUSE.Lovecrafty.IT...IS...JUST...A...COMIC...BOOK.There is no escaping that central fact.You can expect certain things when you purchase a comic book for 3 bucks,but what you SHOULDN'T expect is for it NOT TO BE A COMIC BOOK.That...to use your own term...would be very VERY "kooky" indeed,lol.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2006, 10:45:58 pm
I await your reply...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Wise Son on December 20, 2006, 02:59:40 am
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.
Wakanda has shown previous interest in the outside world, and it's entirely plausible that it's inquisitive and daring people were directed into the fields of espionage and surveillance of the outside world. As for expansion, as I said, you could go for a No-Prize that previous Panthers had policies of population control in place in order to remove the need for expansion - T'Challa's a good king, but I can accept that previous kings were not.
Basically we have to accept the idea that .....-- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture. 
We know that Wakanda has never been conquered, and has been isolationist for more than a thousand years, but we don't know for sure that they have no history of peaceful interaction with the outside world, and it's never been explicitly stated whether there was a specific event that caused their isolationism. It could be that something happened that was significant enough to keep them isolated for so long. For instance, we've seen that their Panther God manifests in an undeniable way (if I lived in the DC or Marvel Universe, I wouldn't be an agnostic, I just wouldn't know which of the hundreds of Gods I've seen on the news to worship), so perhaps there was an explicit, holy ban. That would surely qualify as a suitably fantastic explanation.
And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.
Well, I don't think anyone's argued against Wakanda being a utopian ideal. I guess the question you're asking is, 'is this what people would be like if they actually did live in such a utopia?'
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.
Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.
 
Which is part of the reason we've had a few depictions of their day-to-day life, with hopefully more to come. And Hudlin's version is a necessary change from the version you could give to 10-year-olds. How could a 'typical nation' resist the same tidal wave of colonialism that swept Africa? To have done so, and to have never been conquered in the past, would have required more than just being a 'nation of badasses', it would require something fantastic, a hyper-advanced culture. Considering Lee and Kirby's original was just as far-fetched, and doesn't even stand up on it's own fantastic feet, at least we have an interpretation that is internally consistent now.
Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.
As you say, the lack of interest in Wakanda's history in the past makes it far more malleable now. Also, if Hudlin makes us believe that T'Challa is worthy of being the leader of this great country, especially at a time where it faces challenges it never previously has, T'Challa's stature as a leader and as a hero is perhaps raised higher than it ever has been before. The stakes are high.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: sinjection on December 20, 2006, 05:55:51 am
Wow! It's BRIGHT in here! Well Illuminated, I'd say.  ;)

I see what I'll be doing from now until mid-to-late February '07.

Happy Holidays, everyone! That includes the "everybodies", too  :D

Be Safe!

Peace  :)
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Mastrmynd on December 20, 2006, 06:49:31 am
i love you guys.

this is some serious knowledge flyin' around!
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 09:05:32 am
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.
Wakanda has shown previous interest in the outside world, and it's entirely plausible that it's inquisitive and daring people were directed into the fields of espionage and surveillance of the outside world. As for expansion, as I said, you could go for a No-Prize that previous Panthers had policies of population control in place in order to remove the need for expansion - T'Challa's a good king, but I can accept that previous kings were not.
Basically we have to accept the idea that .....-- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture. 
We know that Wakanda has never been conquered, and has been isolationist for more than a thousand years, but we don't know for sure that they have no history of peaceful interaction with the outside world, and it's never been explicitly stated whether there was a specific event that caused their isolationism. It could be that something happened that was significant enough to keep them isolated for so long. For instance, we've seen that their Panther God manifests in an undeniable way (if I lived in the DC or Marvel Universe, I wouldn't be an agnostic, I just wouldn't know which of the hundreds of Gods I've seen on the news to worship), so perhaps there was an explicit, holy ban. That would surely qualify as a suitably fantastic explanation.
And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.
Well, I don't think anyone's argued against Wakanda being a utopian ideal. I guess the question you're asking is, 'is this what people would be like if they actually did live in such a utopia?'
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.
Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.
 
Which is part of the reason we've had a few depictions of their day-to-day life, with hopefully more to come. And Hudlin's version is a necessary change from the version you could give to 10-year-olds. How could a 'typical nation' resist the same tidal wave of colonialism that swept Africa? To have done so, and to have never been conquered in the past, would have required more than just being a 'nation of badasses', it would require something fantastic, a hyper-advanced culture. Considering Lee and Kirby's original was just as far-fetched, and doesn't even stand up on it's own fantastic feet, at least we have an interpretation that is internally consistent now.
Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.
As you say, the lack of interest in Wakanda's history in the past makes it far more malleable now. Also, if Hudlin makes us believe that T'Challa is worthy of being the leader of this great country, especially at a time where it faces challenges it never previously has, T'Challa's stature as a leader and as a hero is perhaps raised higher than it ever has been before. The stakes are high.
Wow! It's BRIGHT in here! Well Illuminated, I'd say. ;)

I see what I'll be doing from now until mid-to-late February '07.

Happy Holidays, everyone! That includes the "everybodies", too :D

Be Safe!

Peace :)


Posted by: Mastrmynd 
Insert Quote
i love you guys.

 


Much love and thanks you guys,we all appreciate it.I was beginning to think that the rest of the site would avoid this thread like the plague,lol...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 09:31:26 am
Another very interesting post by our friend lovecrafty lifted from the Vision thread sticky at the top of this page,and a SUPREMELY ILLUMINATING response.You will enjoy this one and find it to be an important facet to this discussion.Lovecrafty,if you would please respond to the posts I made on this page,the previous page,this new post right now,and Wise Son's most recent post as a whole...even if it takes several posts to do so...I would appreciate that.In this manner we may get a more accurate,more comprehensive understanding of your positions and your concerns...



Sr. Member

Posts: 280


     Re: The Vision.
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 11:55:27 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 04:32:53 AM
Quote
The fist six issues will essentially be my versions of what the BLACK PANTHER MOVIE should be. But no matter what happens with the movie, or if the movie ever happens, there will be a TPB that people can pick up and see the character done right. No matter how horrible the Joels Schumacher Batman movies are, they cannot erase the greatness of The Dark Knight Returns or Batman: Year one. Hopefully, this book will do the same for T'challa.

This right here is the sole reason I don't like Hudlin's run.  Marvel is not DC.  Marvel continuity is a fairly smooth line from the silver age to the modern age.  There has never been a reboot of the entire Marvel universe.  Marvel does not do Year One stories, because Marvel's Year One was 1962.

Look at the two stories Hudlin cites: The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One.  Both are DC titles, not Marvel titles.  DKR is set out of continuity and is not part of the official, canon Batman story.  It is essentially an Elseworld book (that came out before DC invented the Elseworlds line).  Batman: Year One followed Crises on Infinite Earths and was part of a company wide reboot of the DC line.  DC's continuity had become so confused that it needed to be rebooted.

When Frank Miller wanted to rewrite Daredevil's origins, Marvel wouldn't let him.  He managed to write Man Without Fear and tell a different, more complex and deeper version of the origin that doesn't completely contradict the original story (there are some slight differences, but nothing on the scale that Hudlin has done).  I don't see why Hudlin couldn't have achieved all of the goals he listed and still respected the work that Lee and Kirby did.  I don't see why he had to tell a new origin story that contradicts the original origin story -- which happens to still be in continuity!  He could have introduced all these ideas as retcons without signifigantly altering the original stories, and then there wouldn't be this huge problem of two conflicting stories of the same event.


Well,lovecrafty,if this is the sole reason that you dislike Hudlin's run,then I have to remonstrate with you...as you have made other statements indicating that you dislike Hudlin's run because of BP's invincibility and other things.You seem to be either shifting your justifications as to why you dislike HUDLIN's run,but you seem to always be returning to the fact that you dislike Hudlin's run.Almost as if you are searching for reasons to CONTINUE to dislike Hudlin's run as each of your own avowed reasons get shot down.

For instance,Marvel has precedence for what rewriting/rectifying origins,as cited in this very pitch that RH wrote.Didn't you read this pitch? Or did you scan it looking for a reason to cry:"Foul"? Lee/Kirby retold SILVER SURFER without the FF in the 70s.Now,that right there is the ULTIMATE sanction for RH's actions,and even if it wasn't done BP has been so horribly written that the character DESPERATELY NEEDED what RH and PRIEST have done.STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY--the most iconic of icons in the whole history of Marvel,the leaders and trendsetters and tone makers--did what you said Marvel doesn't do.How can you jsutify that in even the most minute fashion? One can argue that for quite some time,STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY WERE MARVEL PERSONIFIED.To me,that annihilates any aspersions against RH doing what Lee/Kirby did when all RH did was follow in the footsteps of these hallowed legends about 30 years later.From this perspective,slamming RH for his actions is either the epitome of literal ignorance (as in the RH haters literally don't know what they're talking about) or it smacks of racism and/or a stupidity so extreme that it is odious.

Puts me in mind of that CAPTAIN AMERICA fan who attempted to assault me at the comic book shop...
 
 Report to moderator    72.197.145.21 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 09:34:44 am
Taken from pg.13 of Jenn's thread,another post (the one I waas referring to on page one) which lovecrafty overlooked somehow or failed to respond to...



illuminati
Sr. Member

Posts: 281


     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #181 on: December 18, 2006, 08:04:11 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Jenn on December 18, 2006, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
And as a white guy who cites "Soul on Ice" as one of the most important books he's ever read...

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Sorry, y'all. I had to do it. HAD to!

AHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!


Quote from: Vic Vega on December 18, 2006, 09:39:59 AM
Good God.

I stay away from the internet for a couple of days any look what happens... 

It's my fault, Vega. Next time I come home, I'll close the gate behind me.

More fun with ol' lovecrafty here:

I'm not normally one for race-baiting, but considering who you are, I suspect that the sole reason you like this storyline is because Reggie Hudlin calls anyone who disagrees with him a racist, and that makes a crazy little bigot like you all moist.

I mean if you're going to make it so obvious that you are black, and shout "I'M BLACK!!!" from every rooftop, you should try to be more of a credit to your people.

I'm just saying, if you don't want people to see you that way, maybe you should try to develop an actual personality, rather than simply being an internet paraody of an angry black woman.

lol. Her hatred of white people is pretty obvious. She may like you, you're a "good cracker" I'm sure, but I'm willing to bet she doesn't like you or trust you nearly as much as you think..

I already have several black friends who have told me I'm more "down" than they are, so my liberal white guilt is assuaged-- just as I'm sure yours is by the fact that you get to be angry black woman's special white friend.

No, Jenn doesn't like me because she's a racist and I'm a white guy who believes in racial harmony (and consider MLK Jr. a hero, something which prompted her to call me an idiot, MLK Jr. a retard, and racial harmony bullsh*t in a previous conversation).

(Sadly, when asked for proof of this conversation, LC had to admit that he just made that part up.)

But sure, he's not here to troll at all! He is totally interested in discussion! And black people LOVE him, especially with statements like that!



EDIT: THIS POST WAS WRITTEN SUBSEQUENT TO THE POST I HAVE QUOTED AND PRIOR TO THE POSTS ON PAGE 12 THAT FOLLOW THE POST OF LOVECRAFTY'S THAT I HAVE QUOTED.UNFORTUNATELY,MY POST DIDN'T ACTUALLY POST ONSITE UNTIL NOW...

I very much look forward to continuing my conversation with you as well,lovecrafty...this is reminiscent of the talks and debates I have had with my friends whom major in history and archeology and economics,anthropology and the various related sciences...including logic. I enjoy them.

However,before we go any further,I feel constrained to strenuously recall to you that civility is a REQUIREMENT here,and that none of us--not even you or Jenn--could in any way possibly benefit from the recreation of an environment similar to that which you and Jenn both have acknowledged is prevalent whenever you two discuss issues on LiveJournal.I am not the Admin and I don't presume to speak for the Admin or moderator here--both of whom are possessed of formidable intellect and command of the language,making them far more capable of speaking for themselves than I ever could should I make the arrogant presumption to do so--but based upon what they have both strenuously stated,flaming will not be tolerated.By anyone.Our very own Mistress of Mayhem Jenn may be possessed of a flare for sarcasm,but she has not flamed you on this thread to my knowledge...she simply supplied links to some of your more controversial statements,and "rubbed it in" with her blade-like verbal thrusts.You allowed your irritation to overcome your calm and poise and reason,and you began to vent upon her by calling her a nutjob,prior to regaining your sense of equilibrium and indicating thatyou "do make an effort to learn,understand,and appreciate other people." <--That is laudable,the last part of your quote.The former is not...and I feel,sir,that regardless of your dislike of Jenn,that you could have approached the matter with more aplomb,more discipline,more logic,more taste...and that you overstepped those boundaries with your response.

Which immediately brings to mind two points which are directly applicable not only to this instance,but which could give you the tiniest modicum of appreciation of what RH has had to endure from countless fans for more than a year now:

Jenn's links to your quotes enflamed your passions to the extent that you made the posts that you have...both here and on LiveJournal.Now imagine that there are hundreds of posts aimed at you from numerous different sites,most of which come from people whom acknowledge at some point that they never actually read your quotes to begin with,and were thus responding out of the abysmal ignorance that comes from netgeeks whom are swayed by the opinions of other netgeeks.Would it not stand to reason that perhaps your irritation would increase proportionately with the ignorance and venom thus espoused? Reginald Hudlin had to deal with that for more than a year...and he usually responded with his own screen name,thus baring himself for all to see (and deliberately misquote him). Because of his public profile and some professional concerns,he is not allowed to have the freedom that these most ignorant of netgeeks have to gleefully fling about the most preposterous accusations and howls of protest that aren't ennobled by even the most minute approximation of fact and truth. I submit to you,lovecrafty,that if you came to this site partially to determine if your good name was slandered,and/or that your quotes were being twisted and taken out of context only to happily discover that your fears are unrealized,imagine how irritating it would be to arrive at a site only to have your fears and irritation magnified because the situation was many times worse than you feared it might be? I can give you my word as I have witnessed this evidence with my own eyes,and I rue the fact that the old HEF board was hacked,because there were many links on that board that proved exactly this point.Judging by the increasingly short and acidic remarks that you have made toward Jenn,your tolerance for verbally jousting with her has gotten lower and lower as the two of you continued to dance with each other...even to the extent of making the illadvised post that I have quoted above.Now imagine how short of temper you would be if there were 100s of "Jenns" out there defaming both you and your work...but at least our Jenn has the nerve to gird her verbal weaponry with facts and links.These "other" Jenn's feel no need to bother with nonessentials like facts,links,nor any form of empirical data like reading the book that they are slamming.

The above facts lead directly to my second edifying point,which is: you would get fed up with the b.s.Each and every one of us would.And you would strike back...with less and less willingness to explain to those whom have shown that their outrage ultimately has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHARACTER OR THE WRITER.These frothing fanboys were nowhere to be seen or heard when BP was regularly being treated as a third rate Affirmative Action brownie point.they came out of the woodworks with invectives and expletives when PRIEST returned him to the BP that STAN and KIRBY introduced to the world in FF#52...and they went completely and utterly mad at RH  when he had BP defeat CAPTAIN AMERICA,and then decapitate SABERTOOTH in the House of M thing.Again,I give you my word that this is the case,and although we don't know each other,I can assure you that my word and my good name is as dear to me as yours is to you...I do not lightly invoke either.And all of this is by way of simply explaining WHY our RH went to the lengths that he has with the answers he has given.After dealing with hundreds of ignoramuses whom are only vested in slamming BP because he is "too powerful" and is now defeating their favorite heroes,you start dishing out what you're getting.If ignorant fanboys start to knuckle up,you chin check them.And that's what RH did.

Reginald himself frequently is online here.If you wish to know the truth of the matter about his opinions...SIMPLY ASK THE MAN.He will respond.And then you have to ask yourself...whom would you think is the ultimate authority on what RH thinks.You or him? If he flatly denies the accuracty of your recollection,and then clarifies what he said and/or meant...would you be willing to drop your previous opinion? Or would you cling to that opinion,which would be based upon something that you don't rightly recall and which the author of the quote that you don't rightly recall not only refutes but corrects? It's something to think about...

Lovecrafty,whether or not you agree with or like Jenn,you should apologize for the content of a portion of your previous post simply because it is inappropriate,and hopefully below your usual standards of behaviour.

At which point we can continue with our conversation,as I look forward to sharing with you a few historical facts that are of the first importance and that would shed a great deal of light on the matter of Wakanda and other issues of mutual interest.I look forward to it...

Yours,

The Ever Civil,The Ever Logical...


   SUPREME ILLUMINATI
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 08:07:04 PM by supreme illuminati » 
 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 20, 2006, 12:31:54 pm
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Vic Vega on December 20, 2006, 01:04:13 pm
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 

Who didn't see this coming?
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Mastrmynd on December 20, 2006, 01:22:35 pm
this was a short topic.

so.... what do we now?

parchesi anyone?
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 20, 2006, 01:48:08 pm
Who didn't see this coming?

Don't get me wrong.  This conversation as given me a lot to think about, and has been very interesting, but at the end of the day historians who attempt to describe history as a struggle between "whites" and "blacks" are indulging in racism, and I'm not interested in that sort of history.  That sort of history is part of the systematic revision of my own people's history -- the very concept of "whiteness" was invented to delude people like mine, the Scots, into thinking that the gains of "white people" (ie. Anglo-Saxxons, not Celts) were "their" gains while Celtic culture, language, and history was destroyed.

Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.  The very concept of "black" and "white" didn't exist until 17th century (in the 16th century, the first visions of racism were an attempt to explain why Anglo-Saxxon culture had conquered and suppressed Celtic-Gaullic culture), and the attempt to portray history as a struggle between whites and blacks is simply not accurate, it's an attempt to project rather noxious modern ideas into a past where they did not exist.

The fact of the matter is that people are people, and people are all the same.  Whether they are African, European, Asian, or American (meaning first peoples, not citizens of the USA), the only meaningful differences are cultural.  Because of this, all human socities show patterns.  Socities that are progressive -- that are developing new technologies -- are expansive, domineering, conquering societies, imposing their progressive worldview on neighboring socities.  And expansive, domineering socities inevitabley become soft and complacent and collapse into decadence.  The whole of human history works like.  Just like mankind started in Africa and spread out across the world, the progressive leading edge of civilization began in Africa, move into Eurasia, and then split into two locii of civilization, one Eastern and one Western.  The Western locii moved from Ethiopia, to Egypt, to Rome, to Franco-Germany, to England, then America.  America in turn has been in a steady state of decline, and the progressive edge is moving into the "Third World".
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: kitamu Re on December 20, 2006, 02:02:40 pm
Quote
Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.

I can tell you haven't read much african hsitory. that's ok supreme will illuminate you :D
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 02:11:51 pm
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 

lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.This treatment lasted hundreds of years for Europeans,nearly a thousand years when White Arabic aggression is added to the mix.Unless you would care to dispute the authenticity of the slave trade itself,then you must concede this point.Why is this important? Because it gives a historical framework for Wakanda's actions: the xenophobia,the advanced science,the population control,the unequaled military power,and the injunction against expansion,as Wakanda would seek to prevent enemies from finding them or even thinking much about them if at all possible,and then exterminate any attempt to subjugate them with the most extreme prejudice,leaving only one person alive to tell the tale (as RH himself put it in the sticky called THE VISION at the top of this page) warning against trying to mess with the Wakandans.Again,the wisdom of this policy is evidenced not only by the singular achievement of never being conquered or compromised in their entire history,but also by instances both fictional and factual: the fictional being the events as Namor told TChalla that TChalla's grandfather and father foresaw in BP #21 (which you never read,and thus didn't know that your concerns on this matter had already been addressed within the run) which ranged from WW II to Namor's attacks on the surface world and every salient event leading to the Civil War,as well as the return of slavery to Namibia and the Sudan in the real world.There is no arguing with the rigorousness of the policy that Wakanda established for itself--EXACTLY AS STAN LEE AND KIRBY WANTED IT TO BE FAR BACK IN THE 60s WHEN THEY COULDN'T REMOTELY FORETELL THE EVENTS OF THE CURRENT DAY.So remonstrate with STAN LEE about the origins of the isolationist policy and why he created it...just be sure to point out that this same policy has been proven to be the wisest policy for Wakanda's survival and continued rapid upward development to this very day.So you may ignore with impunity the entire work of DR.CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS,and still be compelled by undeniable fact to reach the same conclusions as he did about the behaviour of the aggressors,and the behaviour of the aggressed upon.This is not a matter of "angry Black folks" or is it a matter of a scholar  spouting "racist nonsense" as you put it,nor is this an issue of afrocentrism.Isolaltionism is a very reasonable response to a situation like slavery,and this factual historical event is the ultimate sanction for such an action,as the actions of STAN LEE and KIRBY are the ultimate sanction for RH's stance.

EVen without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.

Fact: You opined in the "VISION" thread the following:

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 04:32:53 AM
Quote
The fist six issues will essentially be my versions of what the BLACK PANTHER MOVIE should be. But no matter what happens with the movie, or if the movie ever happens, there will be a TPB that people can pick up and see the character done right. No matter how horrible the Joels Schumacher Batman movies are, they cannot erase the greatness of The Dark Knight Returns or Batman: Year one. Hopefully, this book will do the same for T'challa.

This right here is the sole reason I don't like Hudlin's run.  Marvel is not DC.  Marvel continuity is a fairly smooth line from the silver age to the modern age.  There has never been a reboot of the entire Marvel universe.  Marvel does not do Year One stories, because Marvel's Year One was 1962.


I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.

So,if you're halting this discussion purely because of your objection to DR. WILLIAMS' work and your contention that this is/may evolve into a debate/discussion of afrocentrism,accept my assurances to the contrary.We can jettison any mention of DR. WILLIAMS' work for the duration of  the discussion,and we can ban any mention of afrocentrism either directly or indirectly....and you STILL have quite a bit of work to do in answering the questions posed.

Please do so.If not,then one could very well be constrained to believe that the reasons you didn't respond boil down to one:

YOU DON'T HAVE A CONCRETE FACTUAL POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If you are of the opposite mindset,then please demonstrate this by presenting your arguments along with the empirical data that reenforces your position.I,for one,would be interested to see if such a position as yours can be defended and justified with compelling fact,as opposed to articulate opinion.I acknowledge your right to have and voice the latter,but to claim that you arrived to the latter by way of the former is an entirely different position that I for one have never seen borne out by objective fact or ennobled by logic.

I look forward to your reply...

EDIT:

as I attempted to post this,I became aware that lovecrafty and Mastermynd posted before me.I shall now include lovecrafty's post in this response:

"Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.  The very concept of "black" and "white" didn't exist until 17th century (in the 16th century, the first visions of racism were an attempt to explain why Anglo-Saxxon culture had conquered and suppressed Celtic-Gaullic culture), and the attempt to portray history as a struggle between whites and blacks is simply not accurate, it's an attempt to project rather noxious modern ideas into a past where they did not exist."

This is not REMOTELY what afrocentrism is.I am going to receive my Ph.d. in Afrocentrism,so please have a care as to what scholars you cite and how you define scholarly pursuits.The ACTUAL definiton of Afrocentrism is:"centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti,etc."  The purpopse of this branch of study is to literally undo the damage of Eurocentric "scholarship" with its assumption of European divinely given dominance,and to undo the damage that this policy has done to the minds and people of everyone everywhere.When we all are aware of the fact that there is no branch of the human family that exists that has not made significant contributions to the planet,then we will have more tolerant,more realistic,more fruitful,and less conflictful interactions amongst ourselves and with each other.Period.Have a care as to whom you speak about or for,especially when you don't have the relevant facts or information.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 02:13:06 pm
Quote
Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.

I can tell you haven't read much african hsitory. that's ok supreme will illuminate you :D

you are exactly correct,kitamu Re,and thank you very much for the props...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 02:22:35 pm
The fact of the matter is that people are people, and people are all the same.  Whether they are African, European, Asian, or American (meaning first peoples, not citizens of the USA), the only meaningful differences are cultural.  Because of this, all human socities show patterns.  Socities that are progressive -- that are developing new technologies -- are expansive, domineering, conquering societies, imposing their progressive worldview on neighboring socities.  And expansive, domineering socities inevitabley become soft and complacent and collapse into decadence.  The whole of human history works like.  Just like mankind started in Africa and spread out across the world, the progressive leading edge of civilization began in Africa, move into Eurasia, and then split into two locii of civilization, one Eastern and one Western.  The Western locii moved from Ethiopia, to Egypt, to Rome, to Franco-Germany, to England, then America.  America in turn has been in a steady state of decline, and the progressive edge is moving into the "Third World"

^^^lovecrafty



This is largely true; in fact,you will be hard pressed to find a branch of science that espouses and defends this positon more powerfully than African Studies does...however,we recognize that the intellectual and moral pogrom conducted along with Europe's ascenscion in power worldwide has victimized everyone,duping and harming everyone except the European power elite,whom profit from the propaganda and indoctrination which passes as education in most of the "developed countries" on the planet.The fact taht African Studies has been spectacularly successful in shedding these strictures and shining exactly the kind of light that they do not wish upon the odious conduct,shoddy scholarship,immoral greed and endless power lust of those whom require that 99% of the world remain submissive for their personal aggrandizement.This is also well known.

More to the point...let us not digress upon the tangent of your entirely incorrect (mis)understanding of African studies.Let us remain focused upon the salient questions which can and should be answered without reference to DR.WILLIAMS' work.Please answer those questions.

I await your response.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 02:48:22 pm

 
supreme illuminati
Sr. Member

Posts: 261


     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #207 on: Today at 02:49:53 PM »   

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Let us begin with a fact that many of us HEFfers have not specifically stated because to us this fact is a given,but to many of RH's detractors it is an issue of the most intense dispute,and that fact is: RH BP IS THE BLACK PANTHER.By Marvel's own acknowledgement and support,RH IS WRITING THE DEFINITIVE BP.Whatever has gone before,where it contradicts RH BP,RH BP takes precedence.If you have any doubt of this,then I suggest you re-read the solicitations for BP after it was transformed from the miniseries it was initially planned to be into an ongoing monthly.Prior to RH BP becoming a series,as was pointed out earlier in an excellent post by either Yaw or Wise Son,RH BP was happening in what amounted to a self-contained Hudlinverse.There have been quite plausible explanations for the existence of two Ebony Blades as well,and these explanations have been given by industry insiders.Recall that the answers to many issues of seeming contention have been answered in the series itself,and RH is constrained on various points not to give answers to certain questions or fully rebut certain previously popular erroneous conclusions due to the need to prevent spoilers.Therefore,we cannot proceed in a definite manner toward complete resolution until we consciously acknowledge what we already know to be fact already.

With those basics out of the way,allow me to directly dispel several issues of contention rather simply:

Quote from lovecrafty:
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak...

Response from Yaw:

That is fine.  I never viewed T'Challa in such a light personally.  This is probably because I read all of the old versions of the character after Priest's run.  So to say that Hudlin has made him less or that Hudlin is ignoring the FAntastic Four introduction, you are erred...

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


It is unfortunate that you have stopped reading RH BP for two reasons: One,it means that you are literally speaking in ignorance about a book when you haven't the data to substantiate your claims.THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE SHARED COMMONALITY OF HUDLIN DETRACTORS,THEY DON'T READ THE BOOK AND MAKE CLAIMS AS IF THEY DO.This isn't a diss. If you had known what you were talking about,you would NEVER HAVE SAID THIS:

Quote
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak..."

Because RH literally devotes issue #20,to disproving this by having BP outduel DOOM technologically.Furthermor,it was established that BP developed light armor while 12 years old--a preteen--and DOOM didn't perform that task until DOOM reached 15 years of age.This issue being cited is especially apropos,because DOOM makes a comment that Wakandans must be the exception to the rule about Africans,by implying that the intellectual prowess of Wakandans is an aberration...and hypothesizes that there might be a low-grade mutant strain amongst Wakandans that delivers them from the intellectual basement that most Africans are permanently assigned to.BP then counters with (a historically rigorously proven fact) the statement that Africans have been charting stars while Europeans were literal cavemen,and DOOM replies:"Toucy subject,Panter..? Perhaps too much time playing "TONTO" to Captain America?" DOOM's comments and argument presage your argument about Wakandans being "other than human." Therefore,we have proof of TCHALLA's super-intellect by contrast and comparison...he literally outperformed one of the men whom you claim to be a super-genius and flatly stated BP was not on par with.And this reenforces my point about being conversant with the material before you make blanket statements.

REASON NUMBER TWO THAT YOU SHOULDNT'VE STOPPED READING RH'S BP BEFORE SLAMMING IT:

In the issue #21,the Sub-Mariner clearly stated that TCHALLA's grandfather and father foresaw the future..the coming of the Cold War,Namor's attck o nthe surface  world superheroes and the way the world would change because of it,including the conflict between superteams nad insecure human governments...and planned accordingly.

ON WAKAND

I quote THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,pg. 146-47:

"I am saying that the Blacks not only seemed to have lost the grand vision of the future,but also (what should have been) the unforgettable lessons of the past.The pattern of Caucasion conquest had been cut out and made clear throughout 37 centuries of their history.After they had allowed the Asians ( these are the White Asians,aka Arabs.<--Supreme Illuminati's point of clarification) to infiltrate and then overrun all of Lower Egypt,the Blacks drew a firm boundary line between the Two Lands beyond which the whites were not allowed to settle.Those were the days when the Africans were not so trusting that they were not unable to perceive that the Caucasians were eternally restless unless they were the masters of every situation whatsoever.They were therefore barred from settlement in Black Upper Egypt until Narmer and Menes united Lower and Upper Egypt (thereby returning Egypt to its original Black African inhabitanats...again,my emphasis.SUPREME ILLUMINATI).If there was every a Pyrrhic victory in history,it could not have been more disastrous than that of Menes over the Asians in 3100 B.C.,because the decline of Black civilization,not only throughout Egypt but throughout Africa,can be traced to that period despite all of its monumental achievements afterwards.The termites of its destruction,slow but steady,had been sown under the laudable dream of black-white brotherhood.The long,drawn out process of penetration and eventual domination was both visible and invisible.yet from these tiny footholds,the Asian population grew and grew until the Blacks were not only outnumbered by Asians but overwhelmed. Substantially,the same pattern was followed throughout every town,city and village throughout Egypt.

The record of the 5,000 years that ended with the European conquest of the whole continent in the nineteenth century shows that every African state remained relatively secure and independant as it maintained a strict policy of exclusion of foreigners from settlement within its borders.This same record makes it clear that whenever the policy was abandoned and Eurpeans were admitted under any pretext whatsoever,the eventual doom of that state was certain..."

It is this record--now let me emphasize that there are RECORDS of this,clearly demonstrating that the aggressors were the Asians and the Europeans,not initially the Africans--it is this same record which Wakanda was presumably aware of,and which Jenn was referring to when she pointed out that we Blacks have been our own worst enemy by basically not taking offense to and becoming offensive with our race enemies.Well,it can be easily inferred,the Wakandans not only held to that record,but they also very rapidly reached the conclusion that they couldn't forever prevent the outside world from noting their presence at some time,so they did what more than 5000 years of their history told them they must do:


1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...and all backed by the most inarguable real world science and historical facts.

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it.



TCHALLA'S EDUCATION ABROAD


Very simply answered.He was going to be King,therefore he had to become conversant with the kinds of people whom he had to protect the world against. It is part and parcel of the plans of his grandfather,fathe and himself.Again,the fact that BP is indeed an Avenger,and the fact that the PRIEST exlanation for BP's actions hasn't been retconned is completely made obvious in the books you have failed to read,thereby exposing your literal ignorance and imploding your contentions along these issues.Again,this isn't a diss...it's a correction. This also is implied in BP#21 in his conversation with Namor...and again this leads us back to the fallacy of denigrating a writer and material that you haven't become familiar with and whom you can't properly quote when it comes to a quote that offended you in the first place and lead to your decision not to pick up his material thenceforth.

Btw,I don't think it's cooler of TCHALLA to have singlehandedly created the entirety of Wakandan advanced technology...I find that to be insulting both to Africa (Wakandans were xenophobic backward tribesmen until they sent one of their number to be educated by White folks,and lo...he returns,bearing the manna of White Man Knowledge,and then uses it as a springboard to revolutionize ignorant tribesmen...all to the awed:"ooogah boogahs!" of the backward Wakandans) and overly arrogant of the Western powers.Every other race and country can find it within themselves to advance and not be gainsayed,however fantastic the explanation (DOOM,by the way,could be looked at as continuing the line of super-intellects like TONY STARK,REED RICHARDS,THE LEADER,Einstein,Nobel,Hawkins,et al. TCHALLA would have sprung full grown from an area devoid of intellectual ability,and TCHALLA would only be molded and stimulated intellectually by White genius,and would go on to be defeated by every White male superhero and most of his villains under the pens of everyone not named D-MAC,PRIEST,or RH...and you think that this is COOLER than our current version of BP,wherein TCHALLA is infinitely more respected,a major player in the MU,more powerful by utilizing the resources of an extraordinary Wakanda combined with his own supergenius,and he puts down the onehittaquitta on people like KARNAK and beheads SABERTOOTH? He slices TONY STARK out of his armor,out thinks DOOM,leads a team of Black superheroes to defeat the vamps,and  he's NOT AS COOL as the guy who gets his ass kicked and dragged away in almost every fight,stays in the back of the Avengers' pictures,never uses in fights the very same advanced technology that you laud him for creating,loses to every white male superhero every time they cross swords,relies on outworlders to educate him when he's descended from the people who CREATED education? Okay,we have very divergent opinions here,lol).

I believe I have covered every salient issue that you have raised.Between this point and my lengthy post a few pages back,literally every question you have posted has been factually answered.Now the only question is would you accept this data as true and incontrovertible? And do you have other questions that aren't the ones that you have already asked?

In closing,I have to belabor the obvious: THIS IS A COMIC BOOK THEREFORE THE WAKANDANS ARE OF COURSE "FANTASTIC" IN THE FICTITIOUS SENSE OF THAT WORD.If your requirement for a "fantastic explanation" is all you that you needed to annoint the Wakandans with in order to "credit" them,then the very fact that they exist nowhere else except on the pages of a comic book should have sufficed so thoroughly that it shouldn't've been a point of contention at any time.But real world history makes them seem a little less fantastic,when one is aware of it...
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:01:12 PM by supreme illuminati »  Report to moderator    72.197.145.21 
 
 
 

Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 20, 2006, 03:05:42 pm
lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.


I know how to recognize fringe theories when I see them -- generally one can look at the criticism of any work and tell whether it is fringe or not from those alone -- and Dr. Williams book is fringe theory.  this is not biases, this is simply skepticism.

Quote
To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.


Pffft, sorry, no, that's simply not true.  Irish Celts are genetically different from Scottish Celts precisely because of centuries of raape and enslavement by Scandanvians.  My own family arrived in America in the early 18th century because British aristocrats decided our ancestral lands would be better used for wool production and foricibly dislocated us to America as indentured servents (http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1272&id=1927552005).  The Romans made slaves of everyone they conquered, and most of the Roman expansion was northwesternly, conquering Germanic and Gaullish people.  The primary reason that the locus of civilization moved into Western Europe is because of the Roman conquest and enslavement of Western Europeans.  For the vast majority of civilized history the vast majority of people -- all people, of all "races" -- were slaves to various groups of aristocrats.

The model you're describing, of exclusive focus on blacks as a source of slaves was a very late development, a result of the development of the philosophies of racism and merchantilism.  It also ignores the attempted enslavement of native American people (this was largely unsuccessfull due to the relative differences in disease immunity in tthe two population groups.  Essentially Africans have a higher resistance to European diseases than native Americans did, so African slaves were less likely to die in droves after coming into contact with Europeans).
Quote
Because it gives a historical framework for Wakanda's actions: the xenophobia,the advanced science,the population control,the unequaled military power,and the injunction against expansion,as Wakanda would seek to prevent enemies from finding them or even thinking much about them if at all possible,and then exterminate any attempt to subjugate them with the most extreme prejudice,leaving only one person alive to tell the tale (as RH himself put it in the sticky called THE VISION at the top of this page) warning against trying to mess with the Wakandans.Again,the wisdom of this policy is evidenced not only by the singular achievement of never being conquered or compromised in their entire history,but also by instances both fictional and factual: the fictional being the events as Namor told TChalla that TChalla's grandfather and father foresaw in BP #21 (which you never read,and thus didn't know that your concerns on this matter had already been addressed within the run) which ranged from WW II to Namor's attacks on the surface world and every salient event leading to the Civil War,as well as the return of slavery to Namibia and the Sudan in the real world.There is no arguing with the rigorousness of the policy that Wakanda established for itself--EXACTLY AS STAN LEE AND KIRBY WANTED IT TO BE FAR BACK IN THE 60s WHEN THEY COULDN'T REMOTELY FORETELL THE EVENTS OF THE CURRENT DAY.So remonstrate with STAN LEE about the origins of the isolationist policy and why he created it...just be sure to point out that this same policy has been proven to be the wisest policy for Wakanda's survival and continued rapid upward development to this very day.So you may ignore with impunity the entire work of DR.CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS,and still be compelled by undeniable fact to reach the same conclusions as he did about the behaviour of the aggressors,and the behaviour of the aggressed upon.This is not a matter of "angry Black folks" or is it a matter of a scholar  spouting "racist nonsense" as you put it,nor is this an issue of afrocentrism.Isolaltionism is a very reasonable response to a situation like slavery,and this factual historical event is the ultimate sanction for such an action,as the actions of STAN LEE and KIRBY are the ultimate sanction for RH's stance.


You're still ignoring the very simple fact that an isolationist culture that seeks only to perserve it's own heritage will always be a stagnant culture, and there is simply no way that the Wakandans can be both progressive and isolationist.

Quote
Even without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.


This isn't fair, I thought we agreed to drop this.  Since the old forum is gone, there is no way to recall Mr. Hudlin's exact quotes, this argument boils down to I remember this, you remember that, and neither of us can prove anything.  I remember posting to this forum in it's original form when BP first appeared, and I remember being very upset by the dismissive and race-baiting arguments that Mr. Hudlin used to justify ignoring continuity.  And honestly, I wouldn't exactly take the word of "Muddy Boots" on what he did or did not say, because his own behavior calls his ability to be honest and self-critical into doubt.

Quote
I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.


Hudlin's Black Panther is not set in a new universe, it's set in the 616 universe, so i don't understand your point here at all.  I don't know anything about this Lee/Kirby Silver Surfer graphic novel.  I've never heard of it, never read it, and never seen it referenced anywhere but Mr. Hudlin's letter.  Also, Silver Surfer's origin never did involve the FF, so it's a rather moot point.  The fact is that T'Challa took out the FF before he took out Klaw, as a warm-up excercise (but they escaped due to the fact that T'Challa hadn't prepared for Wyatt Wingfoot).  If Mr. Hudlin wanted to completely rewrite the history of Black Panther, he should have done as Mr. Card did, and created ULTIMATE Black Panther.

Quote
So,if you're halting this discussion purely because of your objection to DR. WILLIAMS' work and your contention
This is not REMOTELY what afrocentrism is.I am going to receive my Ph.d. in Afrocentrism,so please have a care as to what scholars you cite and how you define scholarly pursuits.The ACTUAL definiton of Afrocentrism is:"centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti,etc."  The purpopse of this branch of study is to literally undo the damage of Eurocentric "scholarship" with its assumption of European divinely given dominance,and to undo the damage that this policy has done to the minds and people of everyone everywhere.When we all are aware of the fact that there is no branch of the human family that exists that has not made significant contributions to the planet,then we will have more tolerant,more realistic,more fruitful,and less conflictful interactions amongst ourselves and with each other.Period.Have a care as to whom you speak about or for,especially when you don't have the relevant facts or information.


Well I apologize.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 20, 2006, 03:27:41 pm
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.

And this here is where I get to restate my original point:  Which makes Black Panther cooler and more powerful:

"T'Challa singlehandly rasied a typical African nation to the status of 21st Centruy Superpower in a decade."

"T'Challa was born into an advanced society that owes it's advanced state to the influence of an alien rock and a supernatural entity."

I can definitely understand why some people would prefer option B, especially black people who feel a connection to this image of a powerful, mythic Africa.   I really dug the show Roar (about Scottish resistance to Roman invasion) even though it was really quite bad, and so I understand how appealing that sort of story can be. Hopefully you can also understand why someone who found the rugged individualism of the original version a powerful concept but had no personal investment in the idea of a mythic Africa would prefer Option A.

It'd even be easy to resolve the difference between the two.  Who is the Panther God?  Where did he come from?  Perhaps someday we will see Black Panther: The End and find out that T'Challa eventually transcends mere mortality and the limitations of time and space and becomes the Panther God, guding his people throughout history.

On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.  Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom.  Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it).  I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 05:32:40 pm


"Quote from: supreme illuminati on Today at 04:11:51 PM
lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.

I know how to recognize fringe theories when I see them -- generally one can look at the criticism of any work and tell whether it is fringe or not from those alone -- and Dr. Williams book is fringe theory.  this is not biases, this is simply skepticism."

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


That is NOT skepticism,it's the endorsement of the opinions of detractors of a work which you have never read.however,you have no problem with reading the criticisms of detractors and instantly crediting their words. You not only ignored the word of supporters,you REFUTED the position of supporters of Dr. Chancellor Williams' work.Being skeptical is being doubtful of the truth or veracity of a particular position by literal definition.You,lovecrafty,JOINED THE OPPOSITION to Dr.Chancellor's work and used words like "cranky,kooky," and "fringe theory" when you haven't studied the field sufficiently to have an informed opinion on the matter.The very fact that you went online to observe the opinions of detractors and ADOPTED THEIR POSITION speaks volumes of your initial inclinations to discredit anyone who challenges your positions (at least in this situation),whether your positions are factually accurate or not.In this situation,we have empirical evidence that you cannot refute,because you were exposed to the existence of this book only after I--a supporter--cited its works in support of a possible hypothesis for fictional Wakanda being isolationist but not decaying.You then went online AND FOUND DETRACTORS WHOSE POSITION YOU ADOPTED.You didn't read the book.You didn't cite the positions of supporters other than me whom may have reached different conclusions.YOU FOUND DETRACTORS WHOM YOU INSTANTLY CREDITED WITH BEING CORRECT DESPITE BEING IGNORANT OF THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DECRYING.That,lovecrafty,is concrete evidence of prior bias,if not deeply subconscious racism.That is also typical of RH's detractors...they truculently cling to the absence of facts and do not relinquish their bulldog grip even when presented with incontrovertible evidence refuting their positions.


quote surpeme illuminati
"To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.

lovecrafty's response:

"Pffft, sorry, no, that's simply not true.  Irish Celts are genetically different from Scottish Celts precisely because of centuries of raape and enslavement by Scandanvians.  My own family arrived in America in the early 18th century because British aristocrats decided our ancestral lands would be better used for wool production and foricibly dislocated us to America as indentured servents (http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1272&id=1927552005).  The Romans made slaves of everyone they conquered, and most of the Roman expansion was northwesternly, conquering Germanic and Gaullish people.  The primary reason that the locus of civilization moved into Western Europe is because of the Roman conquest and enslavement of Western Europeans.  For the vast majority of civilized history the vast majority of people -- all people, of all "races" -- were slaves to various groups of aristocrats."



The model you're describing, of exclusive focus on blacks as a source of slaves was a very late development, a result of the development of the philosophies of racism and merchantilism.  It also ignores the attempted enslavement of native American people (this was largely unsuccessfull due to the relative differences in disease immunity in tthe two population groups.  Essentially Africans have a higher resistance to European diseases than native Americans did, so African slaves were less likely to die in droves after coming into contact with Europeans)."
.
Quote


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:
Have a care to whom you speak,lovecrafty...you have stepped into an arena of combat that you are ill prepared for.The fact remains that there ARE minute genetic differences between the European Irish Celts and Scottish Celts but both have phenotypes which are significantly and obviously more Caucasian in the classic sense than are Africans of any stripe.This is one of two reasons why using persons of Caucasoid phenotype faiiled because those whom were pressed into indentured servitude could do more effectively two things that neither the various native populaces nor the African populace could do: stir up greater public sympathy from the general Caucasian masses because--regardless of the cultural differences which softened somewhat over time--the similarity of the skin of the oppressed and the oppressors could evoke public sympathy more readily,and this same similarity of skin would aid recalcitrant indentured servants in escape attempts as they could more easily blend into crowds.You are also making the enormous mistake of blending the practice of making slaves of prisoners of war--an ancient tradition that is not exclusive to race,all you have to do is be on the losing side to qualify--indentured servitude,which is defined in the following manner:"An Indentured Servant is a bonded labourer - a labourer under contract to work for an employer for a specific amount of time, about 7-8 years, to pay off a passage to a new country or home. Typically the employer provided little if any monetary pay, but was responsible for accommodation, food, other essentials, and training."  and treatment of Blacks.General slavery of the African had as its most salient feature the literal denial of the humanity of the African,and imposed NO MORAL OBLIGATION ON THE OWNER OF THE AFRICAN.Indentured servants were still regarded as human.Africans were regarded as subhuman.There can be no more fundamental a difference than this. Furthermore,your statements about slavery are historically inaccurate.European general enslavement of the African was launched because a friar named Las Casas was an advocate of the rapidly dying native people whom were very dark of skin (often times referred to as Moros--Moors,Blacks--by the Spaniards whom encountered them,and oftentimes referred to as "negritos"--little Black people--as well,so even that often used ploy of disguising many natives as not being Black themselves reenforces my argument when the truth is revealed) and rapidly dying under the brutal strain of European slavery.Las Casas pleaded with the King of Spain to spare the native populace,and hit upon the expedient of importing the more robust Africans in 1517. The horrific events of the Celts I recall to have occurred in the late 18th century,early 19th century...like 1780 something up to 1850 something I think it was.African slavery occurred solidly 200 years prior to this,and was still ongoing in various parts of the world at the time that you cite this deplorable behaviour by the Celts whom you specify.However,they are unquestionably still White and Caucasian,and thus would NEVER BE treated as Africans were and are by their contemporary Caucasian counterparts.When you show me records authenticating Celts being forced through the Middle Passages and more,then we'll have something remotely similar to what Africans have endured.To opine anything remotely contrary is not only shoddy scholarship,it's classically ignorant.

What you and the people whom you seem to have aligned yourself with continue to either be ignorant of (in your case,you literally haven't a clue of what I am about to say) or present to shield and advance your racism (everybody else whom I have encountered during these kinds of discussions) is this: Arabic slavery predated European slavery.Furthermore,the White Arabs themselves were checked and countered in the very midst of the Africans whom these Arabs were also enslaving...thus their cries of brotherhood are historically false,and are instead the cries of the conqueror being bereft of his prey and being likewise reduced to the conqueredThis slavery of their commenced prior to recorded history,and is exemplified in the stele of Pharoahs like Narmer and Menes.My mother's great great great grandfather's people are directly descended from many of the people whom resisted the Arabs in ancient Africa,and she took a picture standing next to the stele depicting the scenes that I just indicated to you that took place.Furthermore,the ancient (and first) city of Memphis that Menes erected is a literal tribute to exactly this resistance,and no matter how much you or anyone else may wish to the contrary the truth of this is etched in death defying stone.The White Asian slave raids and invasion was ameliorated only by the steadfast resistance of Africans themselves and the colossal success of "Islamized' Africans like the Almohades and the Almoravids.This ignored chapter of history is of the first importance,because it is HERE that slavery first takes on the specific characteristics of racism.Europeans simply intensified it and placed their own cultural spin on it.I do separate you from those whom deliberately advance this agenda of obfuscation by hiding these facts,however your own actions--by instantly repudiating DR. WILLIAMS without reading his works,and then endorsing those whom denounce his work--clearly brands you as a supporter of this mindset,whether it's intentional or not.

Quote by lovecrafty:

"You're still ignoring the very simple fact that an isolationist culture that seeks only to perserve it's own heritage will always be a stagnant culture, and there is simply no way that the Wakandans can be both progressive and isolationist."

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

I answered this directly several times.I am beginning to wonder if you read the entirety of my posts.Here is my response to you:"1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it."

Now,if you simply disagree,then we have reached an impasse on this issue of Wakanda's history,but NOT because I haven't given a very plausible response which squares with the history of the region,but instead because you refuse to accept that a fictional people might have benefitted from real world events and altered their behaviour accordingly.

Quote of supreme illuminati
Even without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.

lovecrafty's response:
This isn't fair, I thought we agreed to drop this.  Since the old forum is gone, there is no way to recall Mr. Hudlin's exact quotes, this argument boils down to I remember this, you remember that, and neither of us can prove anything.  I remember posting to this forum in it's original form when BP first appeared, and I remember being very upset by the dismissive and race-baiting arguments that Mr. Hudlin used to justify ignoring continuity.  And honestly, I wouldn't exactly take the word of "Muddy Boots" on what he did or did not say, because his own behavior calls his ability to be honest and self-critical into doubt.


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

So,you're saying that you don't remember what Mr. Hudlin said exactly,but you hold that his INTENTIONS are still the same.I am of the opinion that when it comes to a man's intention,if we face an absence of concrete evidence,then we go to the source to determine the truth.What you're saying is that you wouldn't credit Mr. Hudlin's word even when it comes to his own intentions,something which nobody on this planet can ever know as well as he does.Okay,we disagree.Immensely.If someone told me that you are intentionally racist,and you told me that you're not and here's why,I would pay greater attention to your INTENT,even if you took unwise ACTION.Furthermore,your clarification would go a long way toward resolving the issue and dropping it,for me anyway.You are saying that you are determined to hold a grudge against RH no matter what he says or does from now on.That,lovecrafty,is evidence of precisely the kind of intractible illogic that you claim to despise.It also fits nicely with the pattern of behaviour that you have displayed so far,which is:

1. Slamming RH BP without having read the book.At what point did you stop reading the series? Whatever that point was,your subsequent conclusions have been largely refuted by the series itself. Slamming something that you have little knowledge about is generally a very ignorant thing to do,in the classical sense.

2.Slamming DR. WILLIAMS' book--which you likewise haven't read--as being "fringe theory",simply based upon the opinions of detractors,at least one of whom was so far gone as to say that DR. WILLIAMS' notes aren't annotated,when I am looking at 4 pages of annotations as I type this post.This also is indefensible ignorance,for at least the online detractors READ THE BOOK,you however couldn't be bothered with doing so prior to taking up a hardline position which you continue defend as if it's in any way defensible,plausible,ethical,moral,honest,or laudable to do so.

3.Misconstruing indentured servitude for slavery and the odious treatment of Celts as being remotely similar to the subhuman treatment of Africans.

4.An avowed willingness to hold a de facto grudge against RH no matter what he says to you,as you have stated in your

Quote supreme illuminati
I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.

lovecrafty's response
Hudlin's Black Panther is not set in a new universe, it's set in the 616 universe, so i don't understand your point here at all.  I don't know anything about this Lee/Kirby Silver Surfer graphic novel.  I've never heard of it, never read it, and never seen it referenced anywhere but Mr. Hudlin's letter.  Also, Silver Surfer's origin never did involve the FF, so it's a rather moot point.  The fact is that T'Challa took out the FF before he took out Klaw, as a warm-up excercise (but they escaped due to the fact that T'Challa hadn't prepared for Wyatt Wingfoot).  If Mr. Hudlin wanted to completely rewrite the history of Black Panther, he should have done as Mr. Card did, and created ULTIMATE Black Panther.


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:
You don't understand my point here? Well,you misquoted me in the first place.My point was to refute the fact that contend that Marvel doesn't do Year One stories,and I pointed out that they invent literally whole universes of Year One stories.Even you conceded this point with your reference to Mr. Card and ULTIMATE BLACK PANTHER.Please read my post again with this in mind and my intentions will become transparently clear.




Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 20, 2006, 05:38:37 pm
ummm,my responses to your post,lovecrafty,are unfortunately within the purple box,they are labeled under SUPREME ILLUMINATION.As I finished the post,I read your response to Wise Son,and...

quote by lovecrafty:
"On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist. You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief. I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though. Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom. Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it). I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
Quote

This post is excellent news,lovecrafty.I look forward to talking to you after you have actually read the back issues and caught up.And NO lovecrafty,I NEVER said DOOM was racist nor did I say that RH said that DOOM was racist.In fact in our PM we BOTH AGREED THAT DOOM IS "ELITIST" AND FEELS THAT ANYONE WHOM IS NOT DOOM IS BY DEFINITION INFERIOR TO HIM.You indicated that the Wakandans were other than human.I pointed out that DOOM hypothesized that Wakandans may have a low-grade mutant strain in them.Now,if you opining that Wakandans are other than human because of their achievements despite their isolationism but feel that YOU'RE NOT RACIST,how then can you conclude that DOOM WAS BEING PORTRAYED AS A RACIST WHEN HE SAID THE SAME THING YOU DID? I never implied that either of you are racist. Our point of diversion about your unwillingness to "suspend disbelief" has been bridged by Wise Son,and basically that's all I wanted. I don't care how you got there,just consider a different opinion,whether it's closer to mine or Wise Son's or W'kabi's,I don't car
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: kitamu Re on December 20, 2006, 06:16:16 pm
Quote
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

do you want a cookie

Quote
I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.

another person who hasn't read the book but wants to talk ad naeusm about something he hasn't read in over a year. what's wrong with this picture people :-\
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 21, 2006, 12:09:23 am
kitamu Re said..."do you want a cookie". ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Wise Son on December 21, 2006, 01:59:39 am
And this here is where I get to restate my original point:  Which makes Black Panther cooler and more powerful:

"T'Challa singlehandly rasied a typical African nation to the status of 21st Centruy Superpower in a decade."

"T'Challa was born into an advanced society that owes it's advanced state to the influence of an alien rock and a supernatural entity."

I can definitely understand why some people would prefer option B, especially black people who feel a connection to this image of a powerful, mythic Africa.   I really dug the show Roar (about Scottish resistance to Roman invasion) even though it was really quite bad, and so I understand how appealing that sort of story can be. Hopefully you can also understand why someone who found the rugged individualism of the original version a powerful concept but had no personal investment in the idea of a mythic Africa would prefer Option A.
I think maybe even us option B people could go for A if it ended there, but find the fact that T'Challa had to go to learn from the White Man  in order to 'civilise' his country annoying. It's also a repeating theme, one step removed from Tarzan (White baby is left in the Africa jungle and becomes the single-most powerful creature there), and carries in it's structure and repetition a pretty demoralizing subtext. If it was just that T'Challa was this awesome individual, and only went abroad to better understand the outside world's culture, it would be easier.
It'd even be easy to resolve the difference between the two.  Who is the Panther God?  Where did he come from?  Perhaps someday we will see Black Panther: The End and find out that T'Challa eventually transcends mere mortality and the limitations of time and space and becomes the Panther God, guding his people throughout history.
That could be a good idea, though I'd taken a Pratchett-type view of the Panther God - that it wouldn't be powerful if it's worshippers weren't powerful and numerous. I see the Panther God as being strong because the Wakandans worship it, rather than just being one bad-ass God. But yeah, T'Challa is having to do more than any previous Panther, maybe eventually earning a status as the greatest of them all, so God-hood would be a great climax to his personal story, while Wakanda's goes on.
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
Excellent! Everyone's a winner!  ;DYou won't regret it, especially if you stopped after the first arc. It's been a pleasure watching Reggie grow as a writer with each issue, and the Two The Hard Way and Wedding arcs really do improve issue-on-issue, as well as benefitting from brilliant art. Soul Power in The House of M is also a really fun one-off. Also, like I said, the continuity gets a lot better afterwards, as Reggie is writing the title as a proper part of the 616 universe, rather than a completely independent mini-series (as the Who Is The Black Panther arc was originally intended). Despite all the continuity complaints, I don't know that I've heard one that didn't originate from that first arc.
I'm also glad because this has been a good discussion, and your opinions on current and future issues would be interesting as well.
I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.  Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom.  Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it).  I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
Sure, read it, that's the best. FWIW, it has been discussed extensively here, and Yaw provided concrete evidence that Reggie's Doom was in-continuity and in-character. Not sure which thread it was, though, but if you skim the longer threads in the BLack Panther section, you'll probably find the scans Yaw posted.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on December 21, 2006, 05:04:35 am
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
He is a persuasive bastard, isn't he?  He is, after all, an Honorary Wakandan.  Welcome to Black Panther.  Remember, Hudlin's Black Panther is the Black Panther. ;)  Seriously, I hope you like it.

I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
This is the moral of many internet fables.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: sinjection on December 21, 2006, 05:16:18 am
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
He is a persuasive bastard, isn't he?  He is, after all, an Honorary Wakandan.  Welcome to Black Panther.  Remember, Hudlin's Black Panther is the Black Panther. ;)  Seriously, I hope you like it.

 :D lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there. I went round and round with Wise Son some time back about something I've since forgotten about, but I haven't forgotten that I was made to yeild to his persistent persuasive argument  :D
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: bluezulu on December 21, 2006, 05:43:02 am
Ok this thread relates to the black panther comic book only because of the use of wakanda, tchalla and the wakandans intelligence and technology. Sigh why can't these long hybrid political threads be moved to the politics section. You all have maintained civility and good discussion.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Open palm on December 21, 2006, 07:36:35 am
We're now running in circles here, guys.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 21, 2006, 10:38:09 am
Ayo,I made some powerful points in the post I have with the purple box on this page,and in regards to DOOM..for the third time now,let me repeat exactly what I said (which is ALSO on this page.Maybe lovecrafty should read what I actually said before carrying on about what I didn't say...exactly how he did with DR. WILLIAMS' works and up until now,RH BP.Thanx,Wise Son,for encouraging our hopefully soon-to-be-reborn BP fan,lovecrafty) with precisely my unchanged positiion on the subject:


Quote:lovecrafty
"I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though. Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom. Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it). I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.

Quote SUPREME ILLUMINATION

This post is excellent news,lovecrafty.I look forward to talking to you after you have actually read the back issues and caught up.And NO lovecrafty,I NEVER said DOOM was racist nor did I say that RH said that DOOM was racist.In fact in our PM we BOTH AGREED THAT DOOM IS "ELITIST" AND FEELS THAT ANYONE WHOM IS NOT DOOM IS BY DEFINITION INFERIOR TO HIM.You indicated that the Wakandans were other than human.I pointed out that DOOM hypothesized that Wakandans may have a low-grade mutant strain in them.Now,if you opining that Wakandans are other than human because of their achievements despite their isolationism but feel that YOU'RE NOT RACIST,how then can you conclude that DOOM WAS BEING PORTRAYED AS A RACIST WHEN HE SAID THE SAME THING YOU DID? I never implied that either of you are racist. Our point of diversion about your unwillingness to "suspend disbelief" has been bridged by Wise Son,and basically that's all I wanted. I don't care how you got there,just consider a different opinion,whether it's closer to mine or Wise Son's or W'kabi's,I don't care."
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: lovecrafty on December 21, 2006, 02:24:32 pm
I picked up the TPB of "The Bride", and issues #19-22 this morning and have finished them.  I might eventually go back and fill in the rest of the hole in my collection (#7-#13), but there was no trade for #7-9 (title?) at my LCS, and since "Bad Mutha" is about vampires (I hate vampires, I wish Marvel had left them extinct) it's not high priority (I will probably end up picking it up simply because it has both Brother Voodoo and Luke Cage, and how awesome is that?).

I'm going to write a seperate post about issue #19, which I found highly entertaining.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 21, 2006, 02:41:29 pm
I picked up the TPB of "The Bride", and issues #19-22 this morning and have finished them.  I might eventually go back and fill in the rest of the hole in my collection (#7-#13), but there was no trade for #7-9 (title?) at my LCS, and since "Bad Mutha" is about vampires (I hate vampires, I wish Marvel had left them extinct) it's not high priority (I will probably end up picking it up simply because it has both Brother Voodoo and Luke Cage, and how awesome is that?).

I'm going to write a seperate post about issue #19, which I found highly entertaining.



Whass crackin,lovecrafry? Good lookin out,dawg! I await your opinions on these issues with interest,man.And yeah,the DOOM issue with BP in the "PRIEST era" outfit was blazin blazin blazin,wasn't it? I still crack up about how STORM says to BP in #20..."you knocked him out with one blow?" And BP calmly replies:"Don't look so surprised..."

Hahaha,that's an OG for you.

I find each BP even more entertaining than the last,and I strongly strongly strongly recommend that you fill the hole in your collection,because you basically missed the whole run that would have alleviated your fears.Man,seriously...I defy you and anybody else to find a better overall introduction and characterization of LUKE CAGE than RH's LUKE CAGE in #10...and this is coming from a guy that really likes BENDIS' LUKE CAGE and would have no problem with a solo of LUKE being written by BENDIS.But realistically speaking,RH's LUKE is the best modern LUKE CAGE period point blank that's all.You'll see.I tend to go:"Oh no not another vampire story" when I see vamps too,so I understand your cynicism on that score,but know this: You'll also not regret the "Bad Mutha" arc,because the interplay of BP,LUKE,BROTHER VOODOO BLADE and PHOTON puts an entirely differrent spin on the whole thing.Plus the villains aren't wakk...they're not stupid or predictable.Their plans and personalities don't follow the typical "nefarious bloodsucker blah blah I vant to drink your blood" crapola nor do they fall into the overdone ANNE RICE mode.And they're not BLADE rip-offs.Check it out...I won't spoil it for you.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Gooch on December 21, 2006, 06:49:45 pm
Love crafty, 

your missing issues are in bp/xmen  wild kingdom
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 21, 2006, 07:46:54 pm
Love crafty, 

your missing issues are in bp/xmen  wild kingdom

Good lookin,Gooch,I liked that arc too. But yeah,TWO THE HARD WAY and BAD MUTHA were in those issues mentioned as well...least,i think so,lol.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 22, 2006, 07:59:35 pm
Ummm...I've been thinking about the heart shaped herb...and honestly,I don't like the premise that it amps BP's physical abilities.I like EJD saying that BP is not augmented physically.Maybe it can amp his spiritual connection and make him a latent host for the PANTHER GOD at some later stage,and the ritual that he underwent pledging himself to the PANTHER GOD is the real source for his spiritual connection to that entity...but I want his senses to be the result of peak human development.Same for his speed.His people have developed methods of training that greatly amplifies the number and contraction power of quick twitch fibers as well as slow twitch fibers,for instance.His connection with other animals--especially PANTHERS--is the result of his link with the PANTHER GOD.Let's say that the heart shaped herb's fabled ability to amplify one's speed,strength,senses,reflexes,and the like is simply a legend concocted to cover its true ability--amplification of one's spiritual equilibrium that calls the attention of the PANTHER GOD.It could even amplify one's connection to mystical and natural forces,making it a horrifying weapon if somebody like BARON MORDO or DORMAMMU got their hands on it,and thus its properties are hidden.I don't want BP to even NEED a SSS.That's CAP's schtick,let that be UNIQUE TO CAP,feel me? Too many people have used rip offs of the SSS for their characters and whatnot.Enough already.BP is his own man,and Wakanda is madd unique,it doesn't need any form of copyin off of ANYONE,it LEADS in these areas.

Just sayin
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Wise Son on December 24, 2006, 01:28:01 pm
:D lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there. I went round and round with Wise Son some time back about something I've since forgotten about, but I haven't forgotten that I was made to yeild to his persistent persuasive argument  :D
Hey, no one's hanging heads, like I said, everyone's a winner! Hell, look at you - from disagreeing with me (which equals wrongness) to fan of the month! I spread love and happiness wherever I go! ;)
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 25, 2006, 08:40:09 pm
:D lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there. I went round and round with Wise Son some time back about something I've since forgotten about, but I haven't forgotten that I was made to yeild to his persistent persuasive argument  :D
Hey, no one's hanging heads, like I said, everyone's a winner! Hell, look at you - from disagreeing with me (which equals wrongness) to fan of the month! I spread love and happiness wherever I go! ;)

hahaha,and that's some wisdom from Wise Son....
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Mastrmynd on December 26, 2006, 09:45:49 am
just for teh record, i never read Wild Kingdom.

i wasn't on board with the new Panther at that time.

but 3 the hard way... fan for LIFE!!
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 27, 2006, 03:18:00 pm
just for teh record, i never read Wild Kingdom.

i wasn't on board with the new Panther at that time.

but 3 the hard way... fan for LIFE!!

I LOVED 3 THE HARD WAY,man.I loved the way the brothas interacted with one another.I loved it when BP did that leap up to the Wakandan vessel,a vamp grabbed his ankle,and BP didn't even look down...he knew Blade had his back and when Blade chopped vamp ole boy's hand off at the wrist,BP just tossed it over his shoulder into a receptacle without even trippin.blazin.I liked how each character was DISTINCT,ya know? LUKE didn't sound like BLADE who didn't sound like BP who didn't sound like BROTHER VOODOO. I liked how Blade and Luke kinda clashed a bit,and how neither backed down from the other,but BOTH found common ground in the name of their overall mission,and didn't punk out while doing that.Grown man stuff,folks.Rilly doe.

And FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY Brother Voodoo isn't played like some third-rate sideshow one trick punk,but a real,bonafide magic OG.ABOUT...DAMN...TIME.No,that's waaaaay waaaaay overdue.I also liked it how BOTH Brother Voodoo AND Dr. Strange sensed THE CANNIBAL at the wedding in #18.Gyeah.

Hahaha,I loved it how CAGE wasn't trying to hear BP tellin him that SHANG-CHI was considered to be iller than LUKE'S ace home slice,IRON FIST.Looooved that.Ahhh....I could go on and on...like how I loved THE FALCON's cameo in the beginning of the search for a bride thing,I think it was in #11...and I liked the ganxta bruh's suggestion to get an all-Black team.And the older sistah's response was sooo tite I was laughing out loud:"Yeah,so they can ARREST yall drug-dealin behinds!" Dawg,that sounded like my Bigmama right there,I was straight cryin laughin.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: bluezulu on December 27, 2006, 04:17:19 pm
3 the hard way and the katrina issue it contained was one of the top comics I have ever read. It is up there with God loves Man Kills, the Hell Fire Club and Phoenix arc of the Xmen, Grendel, Power Supreme, Spider Man v/s Wolverine and the Dark Knight. Why? This book did something none of these or any other marvel book ever done for ME. That is put the heavy hitting minority heroes together on the same page, talking how I talk and in situations that are relative to ME. We got this with Mile Stone but this is Marvel. I remember reading and posting and I talked to Sam Wilson and I thought what in the hell reg got on marvel for them to let him put this out. It was that raw and cutting edge to me. It wasn't under Max or Marvel Knights or any other banner where they can run from it. They actually said we are going to let the brothers and sister have their minute and that minute is still going on 2 years in. We are all so blessed to be having this comic yall fans. Another reason I know m/f who are the opposite of me are getting so pissed off about it and if m/f can get that mad about a comic book that aint even bothering them then yep it is doing something right. ;)
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 27, 2006, 04:26:43 pm
3 the hard way and the katrina issue it contained was one of the top comics I have ever read. It is up there with God loves Man Kills, the Hell Fire Club and Phoenix arc of the Xmen, Grendel, Power Supreme, Spider Man v/s Wolverine and the Dark Knight. Why? This book did something none of these or any other marvel book ever done for ME. That is put the heavy hitting minority heroes together on the same page, talking how I talk and in situations that are relative to ME. We got this with Mile Stone but this is Marvel. I remember reading and posting and I talked to Sam Wilson and I thought what in the hell reg got on marvel for them to let him put this out. It was that raw and cutting edge to me. It wasn't under Max or Marvel Knights or any other banner where they can run from it. They actually said we are going to let the brothers and sister have their minute and that minute is still going on 2 years in. We are all so blessed to be having this comic yall fans. Another reason I know m/f who are the opposite of me are getting so pissed off about it and if m/f can get that mad about a comic book that aint even bothering them then yep it is doing something right. ;)

Those are some real,real words right there,man.I felt that issue too...it seemed like I was RIGHT THERE WITH THEM,ya know? It was almost not like I was reading the page,but HEARING THEM SPEAK AS WE WERE ALL IN THE BIG EASY TOGETHER.I know EXACTLY what you mean.I had to point out that RH really,really,REALLY got the essence of each of these brothas RIGHT.The literal VERY BEST OF EACH THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN IN A COMIC BOOK.There was so much authentic detail,like when Blade commented that silver was a soft metal and that's why he prefers other implements against the vamps than guns per se,and how Luke said the nine was his piece back in the day,and how Brother Voodoo said something about "prayer works" and BP's talk with MONICA...man,all that was REAL.I felt every bit of it.Plus I was crackin up at Sanford and Grady,lol.And Monica' pops sayin WATCHOUTNOW! was sooo on point,lol
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 08, 2007, 07:23:31 pm
I would like to bring this thread up in case our new people from Herochat and other locales have questions to ask...and hopefully our admin will allow such a thing.In fact,I KNOW this is allowable,as long as we remain civil and follow the rules of civility and comity.

Please start by reading RH's thread about BP HATERS.Much of your time will be saved if you do.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Jenn on January 08, 2007, 10:06:01 pm
lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there.

What about showing up popping sh*t like gangbusters, then running away like a lil bitch when he figured out that we weren't going to be his new Negro friends? Especially since he's still talking all that ying yang at Newsarama.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 09, 2007, 01:29:50 am
lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there.

What about showing up popping sh*t like gangbusters, then running away like a lil bitch when he figured out that we weren't going to be his new Negro friends? Especially since he's still talking all that ying yang at Newsarama.

Judging by much of the inanity that began to typify his previously more reasonable posts,Dora,I'm not even marginally surprised by his behaviour.Did you notice how intensely personally he apparently took the disagreement and discussion he and I had pertaining to the age of European Civilization,the age of Wakanda,his contentions that Europeans "probably" invented astronomy before Wakandans/Africans,and the like? Did you note that he tried to claim that Europeans created Stonehenge,whom he claimed to be made in 8000 B.C.,but when I countered with the article detailing that the oldest known European civilization was barely older than 4800 B.C.,therefore Europeans COULDN'T'VE created Stonehenge,he continued to post more and more shrill arguments that devolved into name calling and profanity? Recall he accused BP of racism and RH of same,then I provided the definition of racism via Dictionary.com and asked him to show in RH BP how BP was racist according to the definition of the term,and he stopped making that charge without once verbally acknowledging that he was empirically proven to be incorrect? I provided evidence for RH BP as NOT being racist by citing BP#18...the whole story.His arguments about DOOM were...interesting,to say the least.

Do you have a link to his most recent ridiculousness Dora,or are you basing your conclusions upon his behaviour here and your long-standing knowledge of his behaviour on other boards? I betcha you can link us to whatever it is he was saying at whatever that board is that he posts on...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 09, 2007, 01:03:00 pm
Why don't we leave bullsh*t stuff from other forums on the other forums?  Or limit it to links if you really feel you must.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 09, 2007, 01:45:43 pm
Why don't we leave bullsh*t stuff from other forums on the other forums?  Or limit it to links if you really feel you must.

true dat
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 10, 2007, 01:38:40 pm
Man! I loved this discussion! Thank you Supreme Illness and others for bringing the knowledge and slapping love....Uh...well craft down because of some of the inane things he was spouting. Can't completely blame him though. As you all I'm sure are aware he is saying the same things we have heard from other folks of different hues who don't like the idea of a complete Eurocentric foundation of civilization shook.

You all reminded me about some of the books I read in throughout college and still have in my current collection. I had to go dust off my copy of "Destruction of the Black Civilization" from Williams after you all started citing it. ;)
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 10, 2007, 01:46:01 pm
Man! I loved this discussion! Thank you Supreme Illness and others for bringing the knowledge and slapping love....Uh...well craft down because of some of the inane things he was spouting. Can't completely blame him though. As you all I'm sure are aware he is saying the same things we have heard from other folks of different hues who don't like the idea of a complete Eurocentric foundation of civilization shook.

You all reminded me about some of the books I read in throughout college and still have in my current collection. I had to go dust off my copy of "Destruction of the Black Civilization" from Williams after you all started citing it. ;)

madd props and MUCHO love for the shout out,Evasive1! I am very glad that you read this thread and left such a tite post,for real.Holla true,and believe you me there is plenty of beatins to hand out,man.How did you come to know of this site? Glad to have you,however you came through...anybody OG enough to go grab his DESTRUCTION for a discussion is a must-have here at HEF...hahaha,and I liked that "Supreme Illness" joint...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 11, 2007, 11:43:25 am
Man! I loved this discussion! Thank you Supreme Illness and others for bringing the knowledge and slapping love....Uh...well craft down because of some of the inane things he was spouting. Can't completely blame him though. As you all I'm sure are aware he is saying the same things we have heard from other folks of different hues who don't like the idea of a complete Eurocentric foundation of civilization shook.

You all reminded me about some of the books I read in throughout college and still have in my current collection. I had to go dust off my copy of "Destruction of the Black Civilization" from Williams after you all started citing it. ;)

madd props and MUCHO love for the shout out,Evasive1! I am very glad that you read this thread and left such a tite post,for real.Holla true,and believe you me there is plenty of beatins to hand out,man.How did you come to know of this site? Glad to have you,however you came through...anybody OG enough to go grab his DESTRUCTION for a discussion is a must-have here at HEF...hahaha,and I liked that "Supreme Illness" joint...

Ah, the story of my life? Or at least Panther fan to Internet board lurker/poster?

Some months ago I walked into a comic book shop on an off day from work. I hadn't done something like that since I was in high school, which is about that same time I stopped collecting comics. However, I happen to discover this book on the shelf with the title, "Who Is the Black Panther". I hadn't read BP since I was kid and I remember not being terribly impressed back then. However, I am always in search of media that portrays blacks in a positive role so I decided to pick it up and give it a a read...

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

I wanted to find out how Hudlin got involved with writing BP, let alone comics, so I started surfing the Net reading all the interviews and critiques both bad and good. This led me to read comics message boards which led me to that other BP board, the Black Panther Message Board, where I believe alot of the same folks here frequent. I was amazed at the animosity toward Hudlin and the current BP run and I was kind of getting disgusted. I tried to find other boards but I noticed some were shutting down their BP threads or were havens for anti-Hudlin folks. I eventually cam to Hudlins site to see if I could at least drop some compliments to him and give my support as I thought what he was doing with BP was needed and entertaining. Unfortunately, the site was down for awhile so I was never able to register and it was like that for awhile as I'm sure you are all aware. Luckily, I came back one last time and notice the new layout of Reggie's site so I registered, and jumped on the forums.

And here I am. A pro-Hudlin BP fan (Not saying I agree with everything Hudlin has done, but overall he has my support :) ). I even ran out and started collecting comics again starting with the Priest run of BP,which I read in it's entirety. Loved it with reservations too.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: kitamu Re on January 11, 2007, 02:44:10 pm
Quote
And here I am. A pro-Hudlin BP fan (Not saying I agree with everything Hudlin has done, but overall he has my support  ). I even ran out and started collecting comics again starting with the Priest run of BP,which I read in it's entirety. Loved it with reservations too.


Welcome aboard.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: bluezulu on January 11, 2007, 03:26:45 pm
almost my exact story but about two years later. Welcome and I am glad that you are big enough person to seek your own truth and not let someone out in cyberspace decide it for you. Knowledge is power.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: kitamu Re on January 11, 2007, 04:12:32 pm
Quote
almost my exact story but about two years later

so true, now if we can just clone two more reginald hudlins
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 11, 2007, 09:23:17 pm
Quote
almost my exact story but about two years later

so true, now if we can just clone two more reginald hudlins

hahahaha,real talk right there dawg...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: Mastrmynd on April 04, 2007, 12:02:36 pm
because a guest was reading it, i got curious.
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 24, 2007, 10:29:33 am
because a guest was reading it, i got curious.

I have actually noted a number of guests perusing this thread of late,now that you mention it,Mastr...
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: The Evasive 1 on April 24, 2007, 11:17:25 am
because a guest was reading it, i got curious.

I have actually noted a number of guests perusing this thread of late,now that you mention it,Mastr...

Is there a concern some "troll" is gathering  info for some nefarious purpose?
Title: Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 24, 2007, 11:52:38 am
I like trolls of nefarious purposes,gives me a target to aim at,lol...