Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Panther Politics => Topic started by: bluezulu on January 10, 2007, 09:09:33 am

Title: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 10, 2007, 09:09:33 am
This has always tripped me out when I saw this complaint over reg's depiction of wakanda and the black panther. If only the people saying would know how ignorant it exposes them to be. Since the end of apartheid africa has undergone many a changes some positive and some negative. African American culture namely hip hop culture has taken the world by storm like nothing else. The other day on starz on demand I watched the movie Tsotsi that in african means thug and was floored. What a powerful movie. If any of you haven't seen it I recommend it. After watching the movie I say that reg has his hands full when it comes to dealing with issues of the continent of africa and in it he has a lot of westernize topics to explore. A link to the movie page.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468565/
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 10, 2007, 09:26:58 am
Yeah but we can't overlook the fact that Wakanda is a fictional nation that has never been conquered by the Western world and is portayed as culturally arrogant.  That is why counterarguments like this film don't hold water.  Personally I think Wakanda is portrayed as too American however I don't believe this is something Hudlin started.  I think this is something that has been portrayed since there have been in depth Wakandan stories.  We can look at MacGregor, Priest and Hudlin pull out details that are clearly the result of WEstern tradition.  I don't have a big problem with it because lets face it the creators and subsequent writers of Black PAnther are all Western.


By the way you should see Blood Diamond and how it shows all the child warriors listening to hiphop.  In one scene they are watching a Mac 10 video.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bmagee on January 10, 2007, 09:54:54 am
What does anybody expect from BP? I mean it was a character created by an American. It's currently written by an American. BP's character and Wakanda are an American property, not an African property.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 10, 2007, 10:37:31 am
Well exactly to both of your points. First there is no such thing as too american/western. The world pop culture follows us not the other way around in most situations. Even though Wakanda is insular and restrictive to the outside world all bp writers have shown that with tchalla that process began to change. Even during russia's most communist times the haves were able to get their black market american stuff. What did it take like 5 years for russia to get to where we africa, asia etc. is with it's western influences. And everybody needs to relax because if this book was all african and no american then who would be reading it?
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 10, 2007, 10:45:07 am
And everybody needs to relax because if this book was all african and no american then who would be reading it?

Personally I would love to read that but these whiners about "too American T'challa" really DON'T want to be reading that.  Looking at Priest's "excellent, excellent" run there are NO STORIES that would have existed without an AMERICAN INFLUENCE.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 10, 2007, 11:29:54 am
Another factor to consider is that Priest and Hudlin depict Wakanda with "westernized" influence to reach black readers on a certain level. Do you remember in the Priest run when Queen Divine Justice first came to Wakanda? Do you remember the awe and humility she felt to see an all black nation, even though it was in Africa, have all the amenities and structure she was used to seeing in European countries and in the U.S.? I really loved that part in that it reminded me of at risk, inner city kids who had never seen anything about Africa except on what TV shows show them and then they get to go on a trip to Africa and see some of the countries there that
are just as modern as the U.S.. Those kids and some African American travelers in general, seemed to be amazed, humbled and even touched on level they never knew could happen because they saw with their own eyes that black people can and do run countries that can reach the same significance as where they live.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 10, 2007, 12:55:49 pm
i'll co-sign that Evasive.
i feel you on that.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 10, 2007, 02:02:19 pm
i'll co-sign that Evasive.
i feel you on that.

i'm co-signing too,dawg...I would looove to observe that myself.And Wakanda is actually MORE ADVANCED than the USA is vis-a-vis the quality of life and standard of living and probably the omnipresence of tech as well...
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 10, 2007, 02:05:58 pm
Do you remember in the Priest run when Queen Divine Justice first came to Wakanda? Do you remember the awe and humility she felt to see an all black nation, even though it was in Africa, have all the amenities and structure she was used to seeing in European countries and in the U.S.?

That was indeed a very cool scene, and it was a standout moment for QDJ's character, but it's worth noting that the scene took place in Killmonger's village.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: D- Ruck on January 10, 2007, 02:30:07 pm
What does anybody expect from BP? I mean it was a character created by an American. It's currently written by an American. BP's character and Wakanda are an American property, not an African property.

And Americans are reading it.  This is a region of Africa that has been virtually untouched by the rest of the world, including the rest of Africa, and possessing extraordinary wealth and technology.  Wakanda is a concept complete up to those who run the comic
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 10, 2007, 03:23:19 pm
Do you remember in the Priest run when Queen Divine Justice first came to Wakanda? Do you remember the awe and humility she felt to see an all black nation, even though it was in Africa, have all the amenities and structure she was used to seeing in European countries and in the U.S.?

That was indeed a very cool scene, and it was a standout moment for QDJ's character, but it's worth noting that the scene took place in Killmonger's village.

Exactly aka Western imitation.  Essentially Killmonger's village = African Harlem
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 17, 2007, 07:28:53 am
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 17, 2007, 08:34:40 am
And yet none of you have commented on the movie that was the idea for this thread. The movie directed by an african starring africans has so many elements of american culture, that it makes the fanboy's arguments fall flat.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Ammar on January 17, 2007, 09:50:19 am
And yet none of you have commented on the movie that was the idea for this thread. The movie directed by an african starring africans has so many elements of american culture, that it makes the fanboy's arguments fall flat.

That's the thing though, they are influenced by African-American culture.

Wakanda according to continuity isn't due to their xenophobia. So they don't really have any in-comic book reason to adapt anything from any culture that's not from the realm
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Gooch on January 17, 2007, 11:49:19 am
And yet none of you have commented on the movie that was the idea for this thread. The movie directed by an african starring africans has so many elements of american culture, that it makes the fanboy's arguments fall flat.

That's the thing though, they are influenced by African-American culture.

Wakanda according to continuity isn't due to their xenophobia. So they don't really have any in-comic book reason to adapt anything from any culture that's not from the realm

except for the fact that BP was educated patially in the west,   and was also a school teacher in harlem, and somewhot opened up the country to westerners
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Ammar on January 17, 2007, 12:07:03 pm
And yet none of you have commented on the movie that was the idea for this thread. The movie directed by an african starring africans has so many elements of american culture, that it makes the fanboy's arguments fall flat.

That's the thing though, they are influenced by African-American culture.

Wakanda according to continuity isn't due to their xenophobia. So they don't really have any in-comic book reason to adapt anything from any culture that's not from the realm

except for the fact that BP was educated patially in the west,   and was also a school teacher in harlem, and somewhot opened up the country to westerners

I forgot about that, T'Challa yes (although I still don't see it being so considering T'Challa's background)

But doesn't the criticizim encompass ALL the Wakandans?
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 17, 2007, 01:22:24 pm
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron, another black person in another country would have.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 17, 2007, 02:07:14 pm
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 17, 2007, 11:20:25 pm
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 18, 2007, 02:04:37 am
Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser.
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 18, 2007, 11:53:45 am
Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser.
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.
Actually, I think  there is a scene in Wakanda, during the Wedding arc I think, were there are some women in a beauty salon discussing the news of T'Challa's upcoming marriage to Storm. I guess that is where the criticism is coming from.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 18, 2007, 03:42:29 pm
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?
-----------------------
Sorry for the jargon. Basicly she would become aroused when the staff would do her hair. The problem was that she was 10 and a sex offender and you don't want to make sex offenders sexualized if you can help it. What is worse? Nappy hair because you refuse to do it, or being retramatized by folks who should know better but don't because they can't put their own issues on hold.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: GrimSkill on January 18, 2007, 07:02:25 pm
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?
-----------------------
Sorry for the jargon. Basicly she would become aroused when the staff would do her hair. The problem was that she was 10 and a sex offender and you don't want to make sex offenders sexualized if you can help it. What is worse? Nappy hair because you refuse to do it, or being retramatized by folks who should know better but don't because they can't put their own issues on hold.

waaaaaaiiiiit,waaaaaiiiit,waaaiiit!!

A 10 year old Girl was getting sexually aroused because some one was doing her hair? And the People who were doing her hair would not stop because they hated to see her walk around with her hair not done?

....Damn,Bluzulu I could not write something like that if I tried  :o :o :o
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 18, 2007, 08:19:36 pm
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV (http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=30.msg1112#msg1112).
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 18, 2007, 08:37:10 pm
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV ([url]http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=30.msg1112#msg1112[/url]).


Nice link,Loren.What Reg said was:
Oh no, I"m mindfully bashing here.

Not liking black pop culture has nothing to do with race. There are quite a few black people who don't like hip hop in general, and even more who don't like the current direction of hip hop culture. 

As for Shuri, as I said, a young woman in the technologically advanced culture in the world has cable.  "

To me this makes perfect sense.In Japan,there have been horrifically violent movies and anime for decades.For decades (until just very recently,after 60 plus years of massive U.S.A. influence due to the aftermatch of WW2) they haven't had the problems with crime that the USA has.Amsterdam has legalized drugs...and eliminated the epidemic that sweeps the streets of the USA.Both of these places have hiphop...yet,I doubt very seriously that they have Crips,Bloods,La Emme,Jamaican Posse,Skinheads and the like all warring with each other and staking out territory on the streets on a scale anything like that of the USA.So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.
"
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 18, 2007, 08:43:22 pm
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV ([url]http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=30.msg1112#msg1112[/url]).


Many Africans that I know use slang. In fact, people from other countries period that  I personally know and have met, use American slang . Some I would suspect do get it from TV, but others have picked it up from people they come in contact with. I'm sure I don't have to go into the whole discussion of how HIP hop has spread across the world through media and person to person interaction. Kids from other countries use American slang in English and even in their own language. Language period spreads from region to region, country to country and morphs itself into peoples everyday use. It's been that way since the first human spoke. I look at the statement Pantherfan made in the thread your link leads to:

I remember listening to Paul Mooney's comedy album and he said that Black Americans are instrumental in music, clothing, gesture and language. It's not far fetched for Africans or any other group wanting to emulate current trends in pop culture."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is far fetched that modern Wakandans would use American Slang. Now the Africans who were try to attack Wakanda in the past in the "Who is the Panther Arc" that dialogue I didn't think made sense. I could agree with that point.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 18, 2007, 09:00:58 pm
So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.


If we were talking about another country, I'd probably agree.  And it's never been my opinion that Wakanda should be "negatively influenced" by Western culture.  They're certainly above that.

But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet): ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 18, 2007, 09:17:42 pm
Apparently RH has a different perspective vis-a-vis how Wakandans view specifically the issue of cable and certain aspects of "slang" than does PRIEST. And since PRIEST on several instances enthusiastically supported RH publicly,I would hypothesize that PRIEST finds nothing wrong with RH's script.Or at least not anything significant enough to have doubts about.

On another issue...and as probably one of the highest profile PRIEST BP lovers on this site...I cannot understand how alleged PRIEST supporters could love PRIEST BP and yet think so little of PRIEST'S opinions that they not only don't support RH BP after PRIEST gave it a blessing,but turned around and decry RH BP and the writing quality even after PRIEST called RH a quality writer.I simply conclude that this matter of preference is one of STYLE,not necessarily a distinction of quality.Holyfield beat Tyson,yet Tyson's STYLE made him a higher profile fighter than HOLYFIELD...specifically TYSON's violent and explosive knockouts.But both are amongst thel last people you wanna see on the opposite side of you when they were in their fighting prime.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 18, 2007, 09:49:18 pm
So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.


If we were talking about another country, I'd probably agree.  And it's never been my opinion that Wakanda should be "negatively influenced" by Western culture.  They're certainly above that.

But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet[/url]): ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.


As I said in my original post, Wakandans do sound and act too AMerican but this isn't something that was started by  Hudlin.  Priest Wakandans may not have sounded American but they sure did look it.  Clothes, jail cells, exercise equipment, guns, etc. all represented a Western influence imo.  Queen Divine Justice wearing karate gi while training in Wakanda.  I know she didn't bring that in luggage.  The look of the Dora Milaje. Come on now, seriously.

This is why I find arguments of Hudlin making Wakandans "too American" to be ridiculous.  Since they have been created they have always been influenced by Americans.  It would take alot of time and effort to truly create an African nation that has not been influenced by the West in no way shape or form.  That is something that no author has taken the time to really explore.  Despite the overall poor depiction of Wakanda in the move Ultimate Avengers 2 and the reliance on alien technology, I thought they were heading in the right direction.  Needless to saythey get an overall  D+.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2007, 11:53:20 pm
But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet[/url]): ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.


That was Priest's version.  This is Hudlin's version. 

The Wakandans sound "American" because they are written by Americans for an American audience.  What, should Hudlin create a Wakandan language and script all of their dialogue in that language and put english translations at the bottom of the page?  They use Americanized slang.  So what?  All languages have slang.  Again, what do you expect the writer to do, make up some just for authenticity's sake?  Or would it be better if they all used that stilted, contraction-free speak so popular in older comics and bad Star Trek series (and in Priest's version coincidently). 

I never saw the Wakandans as absorbing American culture.  I took it as Hudlin attempting to humanize the Wakandans and make them easier to relate to.  Hudlin is a screenwriter.  He writes conversationally, the way people actually speak.  That's one thing that annoyed the hell out of me with Priest's run(well, two things with Ross being #1 ;D).  He determined to make Tchalla and the Wakandans as foreign to African-Americans as possible (but then turns around and gives them overly westernized looks).  I hate that sh*t.  Like there isnt enough division between us as a people...
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 19, 2007, 01:19:57 am
I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue. 

I just don't get this at all. They aren't talking English, they're speaking Hausa, translated into English for the comic. Would you feel easier if everything the Wakandans said had those <> marks either side of them?
And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV ([url]http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=30.msg1112#msg1112[/url]).

It's an interesting point. Reggie has started bringing up the uneasiness that some feel in Wakanda about the weakening of their isolationist policies under T'Challa. I think Reggie's point would be made stronger if he explicitly stated it in the comic rather than just on the board, but he only touched on it explicitly for the first time in the most recent issue, but it would be interesting to see the a generational conflict between younger Wakandans with more outside-world awareness an the older, more isolationist and xenophobic Wakandans. Also, I agree with Reggie, if T'Challa travelled and learnt abroad for cultural awareness, his sister most likely would at least have satellite TV. ;)
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 19, 2007, 01:28:06 am
[ Or would it be better if they all used that stilted, contraction-free speak so popular in older comics and bad Star Trek series (and in Priest's version coincidently). 
Exactly, I think some people would be happier if the Wakandans were spouting stuff like, "My friend, I swear by the honourable hair of a thousand silver-back Gorillas that Queen Ororo is more beautious than sunrise over the serengeti!"
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: voodoochild on January 19, 2007, 08:16:25 am
[ Or would it be better if they all used that stilted, contraction-free speak so popular in older comics and bad Star Trek series (and in Priest's version coincidently). 
Exactly, I think some people would be happier if the Wakandans were spouting stuff like, "My friend, I swear by the honourable hair of a thousand silver-back Gorillas that Queen Ororo is more beautious than sunrise over the serengeti!"
:D :D :D :D
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 19, 2007, 07:13:12 pm
I just don't get this at all. They aren't talking English, they're speaking Hausa, translated into English for the comic.

Hey, I'm not the only one who sees it.  Just look at some of the other responses to my post:

Quote from: Evasive1
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is far fetched that modern Wakandans would use American Slang.

Quote from: Yaw
As I said in my original post, Wakandans do sound and act too AMerican but this isn't something that was started by  Hudlin.

Quote from: voodoochild
The Wakandans sound "American" because they are written by Americans for an American audience... They use Americanized slang.

The disagreement doesn't appear to be over the question of whether or not Hudlin's Wakanda HAS a noticeably American (or, at least, Western) flavor to it, but rather whether it SHOULD.  Even bluezulu's opening point with "Tsotsi" isn't to deflate the observation that Hudlin's Wakandans do look and sound kinda Western, but rather the "fanboys' arguments" that Wakanda should be freer of American influence.

And I think that's a much more subjective question.  I have a certain vision of Wakanda (largely mirroring Priest's), and Hudlin has another that doesn't jibe with it.  The guys who did "Ultimate Avengers 2" had a vision of Wakanda that agreed with neither of us.  And we each have our reasons why we think our vision is the best one, and reasons why we think the other guy's is misguided.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 19, 2007, 07:49:27 pm
I take your point about the differing visions of Wakanda.  However, that doesn't really address Wise Son's point about the "sounding Western" business being a consequence of the translation into English.  It could be that the Wakandans use Hausa slang that is translated into American slang for American audiences.  That would be consistent with the goals of good translation: to render ideas in a manner that a native speaker of the target language might express them.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 19, 2007, 07:59:24 pm
Yea but in the movie totsi, they were saying stuff like kiss my ass in their language with sub titles on the bottom. Remember way back when that was what jumped this whole think off, kiss my butt wakanda. What country does not have a comparable saying to kiss my butt. ::)

I bet foreigners think we are soo stupid, sitting at our little computers pontificating in our american ways on how and who they are when we never been to their country and if we did we are visitors and not from there.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 19, 2007, 08:24:49 pm
Yea but in the movie totsi, they were saying stuff like kiss my ass in their language with sub titles on the bottom. Remember way back when that was what jumped this whole think off, kiss my butt wakanda. What country does not have a comparable saying to kiss my butt. ::)

I bet foreigners think we are soo stupid, sitting at our little computers pontificating in our american ways on how and who they are when we never been to their country and if we did we are visitors and not from there.

Oh I definitely agree with that.  There is a difference between having an African actually speak English and the thematic translation of what they would have said in their own language.  The way Wakandan speech and any African speech for that matter, was presented entailed the stiff and highly structural representation of the Enlgish language.  They were written as foreigners trying to speak proper English imo.  I don't know how the editors or Quesada feels about it but I think it would go a long way if Hudlin would placed the "<>" around the words to signify what you are reading is in their own language.  Therefore a fleeing AFrican enemy to Wakanda saying "<Kiss my Butt>" will signal that the character is indeed speaking their own language and what we are reading is a representation of what they would ahve said in their own language.

It's like in the Brazilian movie City of God.  The character played by Seu Jorge was "Knockout Ned" in English but in Brazilian it was something like Galliniehro.  I can't remember the exact spellling but I recognized it as resembling "gallina" in Spanish, which means "Chicken."  WHen I looked it up on the web later I found out that his name was like Chicken Ned or maybe Rooster but the point was the filmmakers decided to change it  because the cultural meaning would be lost on an American audience.  "Knockout" was suppose to symbolize him being a badass and also a pretty boy that got all the ladies.  It works both ways in English fine.  Chicken or rooster wouldn't have the same affect although if one were to think about a rooster strutting for the hens and cockfighting, you could easily surmise the concept.  That however would have taken too much time and to explain for a movie. 

In many Central African cultures kicking or sticking your foot at someone is a sign of deep disrespect because your foot touches the dirt and other fould things on the ground.  "Kiss my foot" would be the same as "kiss my ass."  If Hudlin wrote him saying kiss my foot it would have me little sense and came off as poor writing.  THe list goes on. 

 
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 20, 2007, 07:08:10 am
I take your point about the differing visions of Wakanda.  However, that doesn't really address Wise Son's point about the "sounding Western" business being a consequence of the translation into English.  It could be that the Wakandans use Hausa slang that is translated into American slang for American audiences.  That would be consistent with the goals of good translation: to render ideas in a manner that a native speaker of the target language might express them.


I look at it the same way I look at period movies, or foreign films, or even Bible translations.  Naturally, the words have to be translated simply to be understood by the reader or viewer.  Even Old English wouldn't sound terribly familiar to our ears.  And sometimes literal translations aren't accurate ones (http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/literal.htm).

But when I eventually see "Apocalypto" or "Letters from Iwo Jima," I really hope that the dialogue isn't sprinkled with distinctively American idioms and slang.  I don't care if Gibson or Eastwood were trying to make foreigners sound more familiar; if a Mayan says "As if"," or if the Japanese in WWII carry on a conversation like they were cast members from "Friends" or "Studio 60," then that's going to pull me OUT of the film, not make it more comfortable for me.  The same goes for when an ancient Wakandan ritual has WWE-esque ringside commentators dropping quips.

Of course, all of this is flexible depending on how serious the work is.  A comedy (e.g. "Robin Hood: Men in Tights") can have all the pop culture references and anachronistic humor and dialogue it wants.  A drama (e.g. "The Passion of the Christ") should avoid it.  The ones who try to walk the line inbetween (e.g. "A Knight's Tale," which had a dance number to a modern song midway through) may connect with some people, but can easily look ridiculous and silly.

And has it been said that all Wakandans speak Hausa now?  Because back under Priest (http://www.digital-priest.com/comics/panther/cast.htm), Hausa wasn't widely spoken in Wakanda, and was used by the Dora Milaje specifically because it meant that their conversations with T'Challa would be private.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: voodoochild on January 20, 2007, 08:28:35 am
I look at it the same way I look at period movies, or foreign films, or even Bible translations.  Naturally, the words have to be translated simply to be understood by the reader or viewer.  Even Old English wouldn't sound terribly familiar to our ears.  And sometimes literal translations aren't accurate ones ([url]http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/literal.htm[/url]).


But The Black Panther is not a period/foreign/Biblical epic.  It's a modern day superhero comic book...written by Westerners for Westerners.

But when I eventually see "Apocalypto" or "Letters from Iwo Jima," I really hope that the dialogue isn't sprinkled with distinctively American idioms and slang.  I don't care if Gibson or Eastwood were trying to make foreigners sound more familiar; if a Mayan says "As if"," or if the Japanese in WWII carry on a conversation like they were cast members from "Friends" or "Studio 60," then that's going to pull me OUT of the film, not make it more comfortable for me.  The same goes for when an ancient Wakandan ritual has WWE-esque ringside commentators dropping quips.


Apocalypto and Iwo Jima are subtitled.  Is that what you would prefer in a comic book?

Of course, all of this is flexible depending on how serious the work is.  A comedy (e.g. "Robin Hood: Men in Tights") can have all the pop culture references and anachronistic humor and dialogue it wants.  A drama (e.g. "The Passion of the Christ") should avoid it.  The ones who try to walk the line inbetween (e.g. "A Knight's Tale," which had a dance number to a modern song midway through) may connect with some people, but can easily look ridiculous and silly.


More apples and oranges.

Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 20, 2007, 10:48:09 am
I look at it the same way I look at period movies, or foreign films, or even Bible translations.  Naturally, the words have to be translated simply to be understood by the reader or viewer.  Even Old English wouldn't sound terribly familiar to our ears.  And sometimes literal translations aren't accurate ones ([url]http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/literal.htm[/url]).


But The Black Panther is not a period/foreign/Biblical epic.  It's a modern day superhero comic book...written by Westerners for Westerners.

Exactly.  BP is contemporary.  The target audience is contemporary Westerners.  I would expect informal speech to be ... informal.  No matter what language it is conducted in.

And has it been said that all Wakandans speak Hausa now?  Because back under Priest ([url]http://www.digital-priest.com/comics/panther/cast.htm[/url]), Hausa wasn't widely spoken in Wakanda, and was used by the Dora Milaje specifically because it meant that their conversations with T'Challa would be private.

I presume this is an aside.  Even if the Wakandans aren't speaking Hausa, I don't think they're speaking English either.  Just out of curiosity, do you speak another language? 
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 20, 2007, 11:42:07 am
Yea but in the movie totsi, they were saying stuff like kiss my ass in their language with sub titles on the bottom. Remember way back when that was what jumped this whole think off, kiss my butt wakanda. What country does not have a comparable saying to kiss my butt. ::)

I bet foreigners think we are soo stupid, sitting at our little computers pontificating in our american ways on how and who they are when we never been to their country and if we did we are visitors and not from there.

Oh I definitely agree with that.  There is a difference between having an African actually speak English and the thematic translation of what they would have said in their own language.  The way Wakandan speech and any African speech for that matter, was presented entailed the stiff and highly structural representation of the Enlgish language.  They were written as foreigners trying to speak proper English imo.  I don't know how the editors or Quesada feels about it but I think it would go a long way if Hudlin would placed the "<>" around the words to signify what you are reading is in their own language.  Therefore a fleeing AFrican enemy to Wakanda saying "<Kiss my Butt>" will signal that the character is indeed speaking their own language and what we are reading is a representation of what they would ahve said in their own language.

It's like in the Brazilian movie City of God.  The character played by Seu Jorge was "Knockout Ned" in English but in Brazilian it was something like Galliniehro.  I can't remember the exact spellling but I recognized it as resembling "gallina" in Spanish, which means "Chicken."  WHen I looked it up on the web later I found out that his name was like Chicken Ned or maybe Rooster but the point was the filmmakers decided to change it  because the cultural meaning would be lost on an American audience.  "Knockout" was suppose to symbolize him being a badass and also a pretty boy that got all the ladies.  It works both ways in English fine.  Chicken or rooster wouldn't have the same affect although if one were to think about a rooster strutting for the hens and cockfighting, you could easily surmise the concept.  That however would have taken too much time and to explain for a movie. 

In many Central African cultures kicking or sticking your foot at someone is a sign of deep disrespect because your foot touches the dirt and other fould things on the ground.  "Kiss my foot" would be the same as "kiss my ass."  If Hudlin wrote him saying kiss my foot it would have me little sense and came off as poor writing.  THe list goes on. 

 
---------------------------
Brother who are you and what do you do? Sometimes I am in awe of you, the way you break things down and how therough you are. You post actual scans of the points that you make in a comic discussion and you bring tangable evidence of your points. Some are lazy and don't back up what they say and you bring the fire each and every time.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 20, 2007, 11:57:46 am
I take your point about the differing visions of Wakanda.  However, that doesn't really address Wise Son's point about the "sounding Western" business being a consequence of the translation into English.  It could be that the Wakandans use Hausa slang that is translated into American slang for American audiences.  That would be consistent with the goals of good translation: to render ideas in a manner that a native speaker of the target language might express them.


I look at it the same way I look at period movies, or foreign films, or even Bible translations.  Naturally, the words have to be translated simply to be understood by the reader or viewer.  Even Old English wouldn't sound terribly familiar to our ears.  And sometimes literal translations aren't accurate ones ([url]http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/literal.htm[/url]).

But when I eventually see "Apocalypto" or "Letters from Iwo Jima," I really hope that the dialogue isn't sprinkled with distinctively American idioms and slang.  I don't care if Gibson or Eastwood were trying to make foreigners sound more familiar; if a Mayan says "As if"," or if the Japanese in WWII carry on a conversation like they were cast members from "Friends" or "Studio 60," then that's going to pull me OUT of the film, not make it more comfortable for me.  The same goes for when an ancient Wakandan ritual has WWE-esque ringside commentators dropping quips.

Of course, all of this is flexible depending on how serious the work is.  A comedy (e.g. "Robin Hood: Men in Tights") can have all the pop culture references and anachronistic humor and dialogue it wants.  A drama (e.g. "The Passion of the Christ") should avoid it.  The ones who try to walk the line inbetween (e.g. "A Knight's Tale," which had a dance number to a modern song midway through) may connect with some people, but can easily look ridiculous and silly.

And has it been said that all Wakandans speak Hausa now?  Because back under Priest ([url]http://www.digital-priest.com/comics/panther/cast.htm[/url]), Hausa wasn't widely spoken in Wakanda, and was used by the Dora Milaje specifically because it meant that their conversations with T'Challa would be private.

------------------------
Hold on to this. The above statement by you captures your major beef with Hudlin in this series. THIS IS HIS STYLE. If you care to do it, I suggest you do because the energy you put behind this, warrants you taking the extra step to go rent two movies directed by Reggie. Boomerang and BeBes kids. Also check out his contribution to the book Birth of a nation. In it you will see the same dance between deeply serious moments that are not designed to make you laugh and those that will have you rollin with laughter. It is a valid way to tell a story. Black people love it. That is why Tyler Perry has so much success. He can take very serious issues. Make you laugh about it and teach you something at the same time. The final point is that if you like this book or the writer it comes down to one simple thing taste. For the past two years we have seen a ton of arguments raised by fanboys. Trust me. The problem isn't the writer. That is why we have had such a Strong rebuttal to your statements. We watch movies and read books in the style of the black panther all the time. It was no biggie to us. Actually we were presently surprised that marvel would take such a contemporary urban (black) style to telling super hero stories. You all were shook because Reg did not tell the traditional super hero stories in the exact same super hero way. Take this info and reprocess the stories. Take Priest out of the equation. Priest is old school marvel and Reggie is a new flavor. There is nothing wrong with the two. They are just different and it comes down to taste and which one you prefer. Luckily for me I like both.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 21, 2007, 03:26:55 pm
Yaw makes great points. It comes down to how you want the Wakandan language translated? Is it somehow diminishing to Waknada to translate their speech into one version of English over another?

I never for a moment assumed that the guy in issue #1 was literally saying 'kiss my butt', just that he was using an otherwise untranslatable expression that was equivalent to the phrase. I would like to know what those complaining would offer as 'more suitable' translations.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 21, 2007, 04:47:30 pm
But The Black Panther is not a period/foreign/Biblical epic.

I know; that's why I compared BP to a them, and didn't say BP *is* one.  And I didn't say anything about Biblical epics.  I'm talking about standard Bible translations.  The differences between NIV and NASV and KJV, etc.  Some take a very literal approach, and others do like in that article I linked to.

Quote
It's a modern day superhero comic book...written by Westerners for Westerners.

Quote from: Curtis Metcalf
Exactly.  BP is contemporary.  The target audience is contemporary Westerners.  I would expect informal speech to be ... informal.  No matter what language it is conducted in.

That's why I used "Apocalypto" and "Letters from Iwo Jima" as my analogies.  Both were created by contemporary Westerners for contemporary Western audiences. 

Now up until now, I can't recall if anyone's made the argument that it mattered that the time setting of the *story* made a difference in the transliteration argument.  (Evasive1 came close, but he was arguing that Wakandans have actually adopted American slang, not that it's a scripting device.)  I'm not sure why that makes much of a difference, if the argument is that the use of slang makes a story more accessible to American audiences; you'd think an audience would need that accessibility even more in a period piece.  And if the contemporary setting is what sets it apart, then it ought not to apply to the scenes from #1, which were most definitely period.

Quote
Apocalypto and Iwo Jima are subtitled.  Is that what you would prefer in a comic book?

Comic books are already effectively subtitled.  The English translation is just inserted in the balloon rather than at the bottom of the page.  After all, you can't dub a comic book; foreign language comics always (or at least, nearly always) get translated in the word balloons themselves, not in literal subtitles inserted at the bottom of panels.

Loren
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Loren on January 21, 2007, 05:31:39 pm
Hold on to this. The above statement by you captures your major beef with Hudlin in this series.

Um, this subject has never been one of my major beefs with this series.  In fact, I've probably written more about it in this thread than I have in the last two years.  Heck, I only piped in on it because Wise specifically asked for a counterpoint.  And my other, bigger complaints cannot be chalked up to style.

Quote
If you care to do it, I suggest you do because the energy you put behind this, warrants you taking the extra step to go rent two movies directed by Reggie. Boomerang and BeBes kids.

I've seen Bebe's Kids, though it was probably 10 years ago now.  I rather enjoyed it, in fact.  (Though according to IMdB, Reggie wrote the screenplay; another guy directed it.)  I'm not sure of your point, though, since the movie was first and foremost a comedy, and I don't recall it having any scenes that were notably more serious or somber than, say, "The Lion King" (even though the film was certainly more adult).

Quote
Also check out his contribution to the book Birth of a nation. In it you will see the same dance between deeply serious moments that are not designed to make you laugh and those that will have you rollin with laughter.

I've read it, and I enjoyed it too.  Not my favorite comic, but good satire, and you're right, some very funny scenes.  (My biggest beef with it is that I wish they'd had Blackland succeed with less underhanded activity.  Building the economy on the money of drug lords and arms dealers wasn't the best foundation, and making their own conspiratorial deals to suppress world-saving technological advancements kinda undercut their moral victory, IMO.)

And as long as we're talking Reggie's pre-BP work, I was a HUGE Bernie Mac Show fan for the first three years or so.  It was appointment television.  Then Fox started jumping it around the schedule, and I lost track of it after it went on hiatus and ended up on Fridays.

Quote
It is a valid way to tell a story.

Hmm.  Mixing deeply serious moments with drop-dead hilarious comedy.  Maybe that's why I can't stand "Scrubs" or "The Office."

No, wait, that's not right.  I love "The Office," and "Scrubs" is probably my favorite sitcom ever.  Maybe you're confusing me with someone whose taste in entertainment you actually know something about. :)

Quote
Black people love it. That is why Tyler Perry has so much success. He can take very serious issues. Make you laugh about it and teach you something at the same time. The final point is that if you like this book or the writer it comes down to one simple thing taste. For the past two years we have seen a ton of arguments raised by fanboys. Trust me. The problem isn't the writer. That is why we have had such a Strong rebuttal to your statements. We watch movies and read books in the style of the black panther all the time. It was no biggie to us. Actually we were presently surprised that marvel would take such a contemporary urban (black) style to telling super hero stories.

Wow.  I make a series of posts that make no reference to race whatsoever, and you rebut by claiming that I don't appreciate the book because I'm white.  I'd be annoyed, but I've done that before and nothing good came of it.  So I'll be amused at how subtly you tried to turn the discussion into one on race, with me as the defendant.  It was a noble effort, but I'm not biting.

Quote
You all were shook because Reg did not tell the traditional super hero stories in the exact same super hero way.

Yeah, that's why I'm a huge Priest fan, since we all know Priest tells traditional superhero stories in the exact same superhero way.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 21, 2007, 09:25:32 pm
Loren.Yaw.Curtis.Everybody else.

SUPREME ILLUMINATION;


It is patently stupid to assume that a non-English speaking country is literally speaking not only English but modern American English,complete with modern slang.This should not even be a subject of discussion.They are speaking Wakandan except for when they are speaking to non-Wakandans or excpet when the DM are speaking to BP specifically and privately.Anybody who argues or suggests otherwise is thoroughly misled.So what that there isn't the specific in-story reference to this? That's like assuming that Namor is a native english speaker.A story about Namor won't always bracket his language when he's speaking to other Atlanteans,nor would we expect such a thing when the Deviants or other non-humans are speaking.Have you seen any brackets in the language used on PLANET HULK? Has anyone harped upon how absurd it is for THE HULK to just whoopsy-daisy land on an ENGLISH SPEAKING PLANET OF FRIGGIN NON-HUMANS? No? Because the whole suspension of belief thing combined with the important issue which is: ENJOY THE DAMN STORY is so prevalent as to be immediately grasped and understood without need for further clarification.

The same thing applies to RH BP...excepting for those whom are looking to couch their dislike of the series as attacks on the quality of writing.Frequently the real issue which is being couched in other terms is an issue of STYLE PREFERENCE or TASTE.Okay fine.Had that discussion.Also very frequently,the issue is magnified by the misunderstandings that arise between two racial groups with a long standing history of conflict and uneasy resolution,and the murky lens that the fanbratti use--even with the best of intentions--to perceive us.Broad misunderstandings under such conditions are mandatory,and not always of malicious intent.Assuming malice to be the source of every misunderstanding or conflict is second only to assuming that malice is nonexistent in ANY misunderstanding or conflct.

Loren,nobody was trying to turn the conversation into a conversation solely about race,with you as the much maligned but actually altruistic outsider.However,it's impossible to NOT apply race to this conversation...and those whom fail to see the connection fail to perceive the issue properly.Period.

There are "Americanisms" in RH BP and anybody else who has crafted BP as well.Even PRIEST couldn't avoid it...and his interpretation of a Wakanda not influenced by Western powers is the view of a man whom IS influenced by Western power's view of a whole country whom ISN'T.Once again,those who take umbrage with RH BP for not taking on the same or similar approach as PRIEST has are decrying the style of the writer,not the quality of the story.Remember we still have a whole year of stories to read in '07 so we don't really KNOW what's the final word on Wakandan perspectives under RH BP,although to me it's clear: RH has not altered the fact that less than 10 name characters in all of MU have ever left Wakanda,and RH had TSYAN fervently deny any desire to live in NEW YORK or anywhere else for any period of time as opposed to Wakanda...and stil lless than 10 names have left Wakanda for even BRIEF periods,excepting always of course RH TCHALLA himself.

So...language and slanguage? Translated always unless otherwise noted. Interpretation of Wakanda? Still much more to come,the jury's out...don't like the interpretation you see so far? Style preference,which is your business.The writing is still done with quality...and quality is frequently in the final analysis a SUBJECTIVE APPRAISAL,and thus too can be chalked up to style preferences,or at least likes,nonommital,or dislike.

But if you're a fan of BP...whether RH BP or not...can we at least agree that RH has engineered the much higher profile and A-list transformation of our hero? Can we not nod to and have applause for this commitment from big wigs at Marvel to BP specifically and diversification slowly but more generally...which RH is a major force for and a major indication of? If we like BP THE CHARACTER,I cannot see how we can fail to conclude that this is a permanently good thing,and at least respect this man RH for doing what nobody else could or would do in that regard.

Let's stop quibbling over these little things that we already know the answer to,and to which RH himself has taken the time to addres in his sticky thread regarding BP HATERS adn FLAMING.

Endeth ILLUMINATION
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 22, 2007, 01:11:43 am
Cheers SI.

I have to say, I'm still confused by the criticism - a hairdressers and 2 passages of speech make Hudlin's Wakanda 'too American'? Like I said, isn't there more to it than that? The beauty salon is the dumbest argument, and as for the americanisms in the translations, I can see people's points, but I can't believe it's a problem for them. Maybe they could have been written in a more formal and neutral English, but I think, as Loren has acknowledged, it comes down to a  purely stylistic choice by the writer.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 22, 2007, 06:08:49 am
Maybe they could have been written in a more formal and neutral English, but I think, as Loren has acknowledged, it comes down to a  purely stylistic choice by the writer.
I agree with that.  But going further, I think it is a good choice.  It gives the right sense of the informal language being used.  AFAIK, there is no reason to think that Wakandans would speak formally in informal situations.  I expect they would use colloquialisms in their mother language and so translating them into contemporary American colloquialisms for contemporary American audiences seems sensible.   

Also, IIRC, there is only one period scene pertinent to this translation discussion where the invading force is presumably speaking in their unidentified native language at the very beginning of BP #1.  The only colloquialism that I recall is the one foot soldier saying, "Kiss my butt,..." before perishing.  That doesn't seem unreasonable to me and anyway it's a solitary line of dialog. 

That is to say, I join Wise Son in being a bit perplexed about these criticisms.  I honestly don't understand what the objectors are talking about.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Yaw on January 22, 2007, 07:08:24 am
Loren.Yaw.Curtis.Everybody else.

SUPREME ILLUMINATION;


It is patently stupid to assume that a non-English speaking country is literally speaking not only English but modern American English,complete with modern slang.This should not even be a subject of discussion.They are speaking Wakandan except for when they are speaking to non-Wakandans or excpet when the DM are speaking to BP specifically and privately.Anybody who argues or suggests otherwise is thoroughly misled.So what that there isn't the specific in-story reference to this? That's like assuming that Namor is a native english speaker.A story about Namor won't always bracket his language when he's speaking to other Atlanteans,nor would we expect such a thing when the Deviants or other non-humans are speaking.Have you seen any brackets in the language used on PLANET HULK? Has anyone harped upon how absurd it is for THE HULK to just whoopsy-daisy land on an ENGLISH SPEAKING PLANET OF FRIGGIN NON-HUMANS? No? Because the whole suspension of belief thing combined with the important issue which is: ENJOY THE DAMN STORY is so prevalent as to be immediately grasped and understood without need for further clarification.

It was explained in Planet Hulk.  Nano talkbots were implanted in his brain as soon as he arrived to the planet.  As I said before BP and especially Wakanda ARE too WEstern for my tastes.  However this is not the fault of Hudlin.  Every writer has been guilty of this.  OVerall I can suspend my disbelief and roll with it but seeing as this discussion forum, I'm just  discussing my issues with it. 

Personally I would like to see a version of Wakanda that goes the extra mile in representing Wakanda as a nation that is "culturally superior" to the West.  Priest intorduced this idea but he didn't really show it through Wakandan life.  Culture defines ones way of life so technology should be defined through the eyes of a given peoples culture and experiences.  Material culture from which technology emanates should reflect the fundamental culture of a people.  Priest stated that Wakandans were culturally and technologically superior ("until Klaw") but then  on the next page shows them getting WTFPWNT by Klaw and his boys.  Now one could be technologically superior but not really be a violent society or made strides in violent weaponry but Priest always shows Wakandans as being aware and knowledgeable of European weaponry and the ever present threat they represented.  Based on PRiest's statements the Klaw incident should never have went down like it did. 

That is one of the reasons I appreciated Hudlin's reimagined version.  He took Priest's ideas and made it internally consistent.  Klaw being an assassin who took T'Chaka out when T'Chaka was "out of his element" made more sense than Klaw's WTFPWNage if T'Chaka in T'Chaka's own "culturally and technologically superior" kingdom.  Nevertheless I would like to see the culturally-isolated-yet-advanced-technological factor be expressed more rigorously.  For instance, many fanboys find the talk of wakanda's possession of a cure for cancer yet not willing to share it with outsiders as morally repugnant.  T'Chaka suggested that Europeans are not spiritually developed enough to share ideas with them.  Well exploring this further could be quite interesting.  There is a "new" discipline that is beginning to receive more attention within the scientific community of the West called health psychology.  While encompassing many things, overall the idea to look at how physical health issues affect the brain and behavior and vice versa.  One of the more interesting areas generally encompassed in this discipline is psychoimmunology.  Basically psychoimmunology studies how psychological factors stimulate the brain and its subsequent effect on the immune system.  This current movement in science is something that has and continues to be considered within plenty of non-Western approaches to health.  One's physical, emotional, social and spiritual well-being have often been seen as being interwined in many societies.

Is it possible that the Wakandan cure for cancer CAN'T be taught to the West because cultural differences that would prevent total treatment and sustained remission of the disease?  Exploring this issue or representations of Wakanda that do not show to be of Western thinking are what I like to see.  I loved when Hudlin suggested the Wakandan aircraft as relying on magnetic waves as opposed to relying on environmental unfriendly oil.  While this was a Kirby vehicle, Hudlin's comment speaks to the culture of Wakanda as shown in recent years.  TEchnologically of the Wakandans seems to value sustainable forms of energy that can be reused without adverse affect to the environment since they are a people who DON'T MOVE TO OTHER LANDS AFTER THEY HAVE DESTROYED THEIR OWN.  This is why I also liked the use of an energy dagger by BP in Priest's run.  However when Wakandans are shown with guns (in Priest and Hudlin's run) Western-style clothing (every run), jail cells, etc.  I find that disconcerting.  I know its because of my educational background and interests so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the story.   
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Vic Vega on January 22, 2007, 07:30:39 am
Loren.Yaw.Curtis.Everybody else.

SUPREME ILLUMINATION;


It is patently stupid to assume that a non-English speaking country is literally speaking not only English but modern American English,complete with modern slang.This should not even be a subject of discussion.They are speaking Wakandan except for when they are speaking to non-Wakandans or excpet when the DM are speaking to BP specifically and privately.Anybody who argues or suggests otherwise is thoroughly misled.So what that there isn't the specific in-story reference to this? That's like assuming that Namor is a native english speaker.A story about Namor won't always bracket his language when he's speaking to other Atlanteans,nor would we expect such a thing when the Deviants or other non-humans are speaking.Have you seen any brackets in the language used on PLANET HULK? Has anyone harped upon how absurd it is for THE HULK to just whoopsy-daisy land on an ENGLISH SPEAKING PLANET OF FRIGGIN NON-HUMANS? No? Because the whole suspension of belief thing combined with the important issue which is: ENJOY THE DAMN STORY is so prevalent as to be immediately grasped and understood without need for further clarification.

For instance, many fanboys find the talk of wakanda's possession of a cure for cancer yet not willing to share it with outsiders as morally repugnant.  T'Chaka suggested that Europeans are not spiritually developed enough to share ideas with them.  Well exploring this further could be quite interesting.  There is a "new" discipline that is beginning to receive more attention within the scientific community of the West called health psychology.  While encompassing many things, overall the idea to look at how physical health issues affect the brain and behavior and vice versa.  One of the more interesting areas generally encompassed in this discipline is psychoimmunology.  Basically psychoimmunology studies how psychological factors stimulate the brain and its subsequent effect on the immune system.  This current movement in science is something that has and continues to be considered within plenty of non-Western approaches to health.  One's physical, emotional, social and spiritual well-being have often been seen as being interwined in many societies.

Is it possible that the Wakandan cure for cancer CAN'T be taught to the West because cultural differences that would prevent total treatment and sustained remission of the disease?  Exploring this issue or representations of Wakanda that do not show to be of Western thinking are what I like to see.  I loved when Hudlin suggested the Wakandan aircraft as relying on magnetic waves as opposed to relying on environmental unfriendly oil.  While this was a Kirby vehicle, Hudlin's comment speaks to the culture of Wakanda as shown in recent years.  TEchnologically of the Wakandans seems to value sustainable forms of energy that can be reused without adverse affect to the environment since they are a people who DON'T MOVE TO OTHER LANDS AFTER THEY HAVE DESTROYED THEIR OWN.  This is why I also liked the use of an energy dagger by BP in Priest's run.  However when Wakandans are shown with guns (in Priest and Hudlin's run) Western-style clothing (every run), jail cells, etc.  I find that disconcerting.  I know its because of my educational background and interests so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the story.   

For instance, many fanboys find the talk of wakanda's possession of a cure for cancer yet not willing to share it with outsiders as morally repugnant.

This I find to be one of the GOOFIEST critiscisms leveled against the book IMHO. No "hidden land" ever shared its high tech with the outside world. DC's Amazons never revealed the secret of the Purple Healing Ray to the outside world despite the fact that it would save millions of lives. Why are the Wakandans any diffrent?They're isolationists. That means: "@#$& everbody who isnt us."     

I think the thinking was that even if the Wakandans did release the cure for cancer to the west, they would only supress it as the Cancer Industry is a very lucrative one. See the Doctor Strange mini "the Oath" where Doc stumbles on a Cancer cure and set upon by assassins sent from the medical industry. :D I think that was the point of the line "They (the west) would only make a weapon of it, as they do everthing else." 

Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 22, 2007, 07:46:10 am
Hold on to this. The above statement by you captures your major beef with Hudlin in this series.

Um, this subject has never been one of my major beefs with this series.  In fact, I've probably written more about it in this thread than I have in the last two years.  Heck, I only piped in on it because Wise specifically asked for a counterpoint.  And my other, bigger complaints cannot be chalked up to style.

Quote
If you care to do it, I suggest you do because the energy you put behind this, warrants you taking the extra step to go rent two movies directed by Reggie. Boomerang and BeBes kids.

I've seen Bebe's Kids, though it was probably 10 years ago now.  I rather enjoyed it, in fact.  (Though according to IMdB, Reggie wrote the screenplay; another guy directed it.)  I'm not sure of your point, though, since the movie was first and foremost a comedy, and I don't recall it having any scenes that were notably more serious or somber than, say, "The Lion King" (even though the film was certainly more adult).

Quote
Also check out his contribution to the book Birth of a nation. In it you will see the same dance between deeply serious moments that are not designed to make you laugh and those that will have you rollin with laughter.

I've read it, and I enjoyed it too.  Not my favorite comic, but good satire, and you're right, some very funny scenes.  (My biggest beef with it is that I wish they'd had Blackland succeed with less underhanded activity.  Building the economy on the money of drug lords and arms dealers wasn't the best foundation, and making their own conspiratorial deals to suppress world-saving technological advancements kinda undercut their moral victory, IMO.)

And as long as we're talking Reggie's pre-BP work, I was a HUGE Bernie Mac Show fan for the first three years or so.  It was appointment television.  Then Fox started jumping it around the schedule, and I lost track of it after it went on hiatus and ended up on Fridays.

Quote
It is a valid way to tell a story.

Hmm.  Mixing deeply serious moments with drop-dead hilarious comedy.  Maybe that's why I can't stand "Scrubs" or "The Office."

No, wait, that's not right.  I love "The Office," and "Scrubs" is probably my favorite sitcom ever.  Maybe you're confusing me with someone whose taste in entertainment you actually know something about. :)

Quote
Black people love it. That is why Tyler Perry has so much success. He can take very serious issues. Make you laugh about it and teach you something at the same time. The final point is that if you like this book or the writer it comes down to one simple thing taste. For the past two years we have seen a ton of arguments raised by fanboys. Trust me. The problem isn't the writer. That is why we have had such a Strong rebuttal to your statements. We watch movies and read books in the style of the black panther all the time. It was no biggie to us. Actually we were presently surprised that marvel would take such a contemporary urban (black) style to telling super hero stories.

Wow.  I make a series of posts that make no reference to race whatsoever, and you rebut by claiming that I don't appreciate the book because I'm white.  I'd be annoyed, but I've done that before and nothing good came of it.  So I'll be amused at how subtly you tried to turn the discussion into one on race, with me as the defendant.  It was a noble effort, but I'm not biting.

Quote
You all were shook because Reg did not tell the traditional super hero stories in the exact same super hero way.

Yeah, that's why I'm a huge Priest fan, since we all know Priest tells traditional superhero stories in the exact same superhero way.
---------------------------------
Umm you can talk about race and not have it resort to charges of racism or what not? I'm black and your not. While you indirectly benefit from things about race and I am in some ways at a disadvantage because of them, I don't personally blame you for any of that. Also I don't make as much a distinction between the "three headed monsters" don't take it personal it's just impossible for me to make the separation between you jer and that guy. For all it's worth I have not been able to make a clear cut distinction between you the real person behind the computer screen and the other two gentlemen. I know that could be seen to be real disrespectful, but it's not my intention. You 3 have not contributed very much to non- comic discussion or any other threads here or any where else that I may have seen. Ok let's not have a good thread get off track. :)

So if you say that Reg story telling method is a valid approach to telling a story, then your problem is that he is not Priest. Being that he will never be Priest, you can move on and try to get into the series or not eh?
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: bluezulu on January 22, 2007, 08:43:26 am
When Americans are up in arms over stem cell research ethics, I find it highly likely that Wakandans would be hesitant to shair the cure for cancer if it involves a process that is culturally suitable for them but not for the west. Also look at our health policies and how it caters to the pharmaceutical companies and hmo's. I would not say that I in the wakandan's fictional place would not offer up a cure to the outside world but I can understand why the wakandans wouldnt.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Wise Son on January 23, 2007, 01:38:39 am
Also I don't make as much a distinction between the "three headed monsters" don't take it personal it's just impossible for me to make the separation between you jer and that guy. For all it's worth I have not been able to make a clear cut distinction between you the real person behind the computer screen and the other two gentlemen.
Well, be fair - Loren has clearly actually read the comic, and is backing up what he says with real quotes, not just 'some guy on CBR said...' Also, he was responding to something I asked, and didn't just leap in with 'HUDLIN SUX!!11!' like some of the really bad trolls do. I don't agree with Loren, but I'd rather some of the recent trouble-makers followed his example when it came to presenting contrary opiions.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Salustrade on April 17, 2007, 09:16:40 am
I look at it the same way I look at period movies, or foreign films, or even Bible translations.  Naturally, the words have to be translated simply to be understood by the reader or viewer.  Even Old English wouldn't sound terribly familiar to our ears.  And sometimes literal translations aren't accurate ones ([url]http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/literal.htm[/url]).


But The Black Panther is not a period/foreign/Biblical epic.  It's a modern day superhero comic book...written by Westerners for Westerners.

Exactly.  BP is contemporary.  The target audience is contemporary Westerners.  I would expect informal speech to be ... informal.  No matter what language it is conducted in.

And has it been said that all Wakandans speak Hausa now?  Because back under Priest ([url]http://www.digital-priest.com/comics/panther/cast.htm[/url]), Hausa wasn't widely spoken in Wakanda, and was used by the Dora Milaje specifically because it meant that their conversations with T'Challa would be private.

I presume this is an aside.  Even if the Wakandans aren't speaking Hausa, I don't think they're speaking English either.  Just out of curiosity, do you speak another language? 

^^^Out of curiousity, what does the term "westerner" actually mean to you?
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Blanks on April 21, 2007, 08:03:42 am
everyone has all made some valid points. Some I agree with, other's not. But hey, that's the whole point of a message board, eh? To debate. Eh? Eh? Am I right or am I right?

Anyhoo, for a simplier counter... I am one who misses the ol < and > in the word bubbles when the Wakandan's are talking to each other.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 22, 2007, 01:35:55 pm
Loren.Yaw.Curtis.Everybody else.

SUPREME ILLUMINATION;


It is patently stupid to assume that a non-English speaking country is literally speaking not only English but modern American English,complete with modern slang.This should not even be a subject of discussion.They are speaking Wakandan except for when they are speaking to non-Wakandans or excpet when the DM are speaking to BP specifically and privately.Anybody who argues or suggests otherwise is thoroughly misled.So what that there isn't the specific in-story reference to this? That's like assuming that Namor is a native english speaker.A story about Namor won't always bracket his language when he's speaking to other Atlanteans,nor would we expect such a thing when the Deviants or other non-humans are speaking.Have you seen any brackets in the language used on PLANET HULK? Has anyone harped upon how absurd it is for THE HULK to just whoopsy-daisy land on an ENGLISH SPEAKING PLANET OF FRIGGIN NON-HUMANS? No? Because the whole suspension of belief thing combined with the important issue which is: ENJOY THE DAMN STORY is so prevalent as to be immediately grasped and understood without need for further clarification.

It was explained in Planet Hulk.  Nano talkbots were implanted in his brain as soon as he arrived to the planet.  As I said before BP and especially Wakanda ARE too WEstern for my tastes.  However this is not the fault of Hudlin.  Every writer has been guilty of this.  OVerall I can suspend my disbelief and roll with it but seeing as this discussion forum, I'm just  discussing my issues with it. 

Personally I would like to see a version of Wakanda that goes the extra mile in representing Wakanda as a nation that is "culturally superior" to the West.  Priest intorduced this idea but he didn't really show it through Wakandan life.  Culture defines ones way of life so technology should be defined through the eyes of a given peoples culture and experiences.  Material culture from which technology emanates should reflect the fundamental culture of a people.  Priest stated that Wakandans were culturally and technologically superior ("until Klaw") but then  on the next page shows them getting WTFPWNT by Klaw and his boys.  Now one could be technologically superior but not really be a violent society or made strides in violent weaponry but Priest always shows Wakandans as being aware and knowledgeable of European weaponry and the ever present threat they represented.  Based on PRiest's statements the Klaw incident should never have went down like it did. 

That is one of the reasons I appreciated Hudlin's reimagined version.  He took Priest's ideas and made it internally consistent.  Klaw being an assassin who took T'Chaka out when T'Chaka was "out of his element" made more sense than Klaw's WTFPWNage if T'Chaka in T'Chaka's own "culturally and technologically superior" kingdom.  Nevertheless I would like to see the culturally-isolated-yet-advanced-technological factor be expressed more rigorously.  For instance, many fanboys find the talk of wakanda's possession of a cure for cancer yet not willing to share it with outsiders as morally repugnant.  T'Chaka suggested that Europeans are not spiritually developed enough to share ideas with them.  Well exploring this further could be quite interesting.  There is a "new" discipline that is beginning to receive more attention within the scientific community of the West called health psychology.  While encompassing many things, overall the idea to look at how physical health issues affect the brain and behavior and vice versa.  One of the more interesting areas generally encompassed in this discipline is psychoimmunology.  Basically psychoimmunology studies how psychological factors stimulate the brain and its subsequent effect on the immune system.  This current movement in science is something that has and continues to be considered within plenty of non-Western approaches to health.  One's physical, emotional, social and spiritual well-being have often been seen as being interwined in many societies.

Is it possible that the Wakandan cure for cancer CAN'T be taught to the West because cultural differences that would prevent total treatment and sustained remission of the disease?  Exploring this issue or representations of Wakanda that do not show to be of Western thinking are what I like to see.  I loved when Hudlin suggested the Wakandan aircraft as relying on magnetic waves as opposed to relying on environmental unfriendly oil.  While this was a Kirby vehicle, Hudlin's comment speaks to the culture of Wakanda as shown in recent years.  TEchnologically of the Wakandans seems to value sustainable forms of energy that can be reused without adverse affect to the environment since they are a people who DON'T MOVE TO OTHER LANDS AFTER THEY HAVE DESTROYED THEIR OWN.  This is why I also liked the use of an energy dagger by BP in Priest's run.  However when Wakandans are shown with guns (in Priest and Hudlin's run) Western-style clothing (every run), jail cells, etc.  I find that disconcerting.  I know its because of my educational background and interests so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the story.  


Whatup Yaw! Thanks for explaining the situation with the talkbots bit...but that doesn't mean that the rest of the peeps on Planet Hulk shouldn't be speaking with brackets around their words.That includes Hulk himself,if he was responding to them in their native tongue (which I would tend to think he was,because they don't have talkbots translating English for them,right?)

And as for the whole issue of Wakandans being too American...remember when Brother Voodoo and BP's uncle were chatting? Can you imagine America with a Regent? Can you imagine ANYBODY LEADING THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT referring to the unification of science and magic as part of the cultural holistic perspective that Wakandans have? Hell,we don't even BELIEVE in straight up pure magic here in the USA.Even those of us who believe ardently in God and stuff and go to church regularly tend to be intensely skeptical of claims of actual magical doings by flesh and blood mortals.Wakandans take magic,science,politics,physical development and more to be a natural and vital synthesis expressing their worldview and how they see themselves.I can't think of a more distinctively non-Western perspective.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: moor on April 23, 2007, 01:28:46 pm
Couldn't all this have been avoided with a small yellow box and an asterisk stating *Loosely translated....

?

I liked comics better when they were for kids, and editors actually cared about being meticulous.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Salustrade on April 23, 2007, 05:09:56 pm
Take Priest out of the equation. Priest is old school marvel and Reggie is a new flavor. There is nothing wrong with the two. They are just different and it comes down to taste and which one you prefer. Luckily for me I like both.

^^^What exactly is "old school" Marvel?

I would never have touched a Black Panther comic book outside of the original Kirby/McGregor runs prior to Christopher Priests incredible re-interpretation of the titular character.

He layed the foundations of T'Challa as an uber-cofident African King decked totally self assured and technologically clued up.

Royally aloof but compassionate, passionate about justice and his nation States place in the world, Christopher Priests take on T'Challa/Black Panther was nothing short of mindblowing and I found myself totally blown away by the sheer brilliance of the revitalised character and his portrayal.

If Christopher Priest had not layed the new foundations down for T'Challa, there would have been nothing for Reginald Hudlin to build upon.

I don't see what "new" school has to do with anything in this regard.

If you want urban lingo look to Luke Cage for that.

T'Challa is an African King and I dont really expect him to be talking about getting jiggy with it.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 27, 2007, 10:32:20 am
Take Priest out of the equation. Priest is old school marvel and Reggie is a new flavor. There is nothing wrong with the two. They are just different and it comes down to taste and which one you prefer. Luckily for me I like both.

^^^What exactly is "old school" Marvel?

I would never have touched a Black Panther comic book outside of the original Kirby/McGregor runs prior to Christopher Priests incredible re-interpretation of the titular character.

He layed the foundations of T'Challa as an uber-cofident African King decked totally self assured and technologically clued up.

Royally aloof but compassionate, passionate about justice and his nation States place in the world, Christopher Priests take on T'Challa/Black Panther was nothing short of mindblowing and I found myself totally blown away by the sheer brilliance of the revitalised character and his portrayal.

If Christopher Priest had not layed the new foundations down for T'Challa, there would have been nothing for Reginald Hudlin to build upon.

I don't see what "new" school has to do with anything in this regard.

If you want urban lingo look to Luke Cage for that.

T'Challa is an African King and I dont really expect him to be talking about getting jiggy with it.


Hahahahahaha!! I really like this post! I love Priest too--as everyone knows--but I don't actually think that TChalla sayin "boo" means that he's too American.Africans and African-Americans have the same cultural and racial root--not to mention branches and trunk,lol--so striking cultural similarities shouldn't be viewed as shocking or unrealistic.I have cousins from Nigeria whom quote Biggie and Jay-Z.We over here have spoken of our love for African music many a time.Nobody accused us of being "too African".What exactly does that mean? And since when could being "African-American" be perceived as being "too American"? Somebody explain that to me.I could understand that if the police started  racially profiling TChalla when he and Luke and Blade,Brother Voodoo and Monica came to New Awlins,but other than that...it's going to take some work to connect the two,IMHO.

Some of us may remember that old skool film short in black and white showing African villagers doing the old skool dance called the Charleston that came out when my father was a child...and these Africans hadn't the advantage of cable.I'm thinking that the Wakandans have cable,or actually cable to the bazillionth power.I think that they may regard 99.9% of the television programming of "outworlders" to be the equivalent of THE JERRY SPRINGER SHOW and would likely never watch it...and like most of us,would never watch the crapola,but would be conversant enough with the material to know it when we see it.Sounds contradictory,but it's not.If anyone needs a further example,I will be happy to comply.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: GrimSkill on May 04, 2007, 05:22:54 pm
This is very Correct,there is no reason the Wakandan people should be thought of as not having Cable :D
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: Princesa on May 05, 2007, 06:56:14 am
I think Wakanda should have a unique look like Atlantis and sometimes it look like Cleveland. I don't think overall its been srwn too well.
Title: Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 23, 2007, 10:42:37 am
I think Wakanda should have a unique look like Atlantis and sometimes it look like Cleveland. I don't think overall its been srwn too well.

I don't think we've seen Wakanda overall in this series...but I DO think that it reflects an admixture of African culture and sensibilities.I don't know,Princesa darling...since Wakanda has been around well before Cleveland,I would venture to say that CLEVELAND LOOKS LIKE WAKANDA...which wouldn't be the FIRST time we've seen people bite our steez and not give us recognition or props as the originators of what they've copied.And copied POORLY at that.