Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Panther Politics => Topic started by: Marvelous on January 13, 2007, 01:46:59 pm

Title: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Marvelous on January 13, 2007, 01:46:59 pm
 ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 13, 2007, 03:16:13 pm
If Apollo fought the Panther while wearing his All-American, "Mom's Apple Pie" red, white, and blue huggies, then it would be no contest. Clad in those togs, Creed would be the next best thing to Captain America. The larger comic book-buying demographic would DEMAND an Apollo Creed victory over the African king from a racist, xenophobic nation who has a name reminiscent of a black American "hate group".

Of course, it's fine with the larger comic book-buying demographic when the patriotically-clad Apollo Creed can beat Rocky Balboa nearly to death and still wind up losing the fight in the end.

The Italian Stallion always trumps the Black Panther AND Apollo Creed where the larger comic book-buying demographic is concerned.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 13, 2007, 03:42:56 pm
If Apollo fought the Panther while wearing his All-American, "Mom's Apple Pie" red, white, and blue huggies, then it would be no contest. Clad in those togs, Creed would be the next best thing to Captain America. The larger comic book-buying demographic would DEMAND an Apollo Creed victory over the African king from a racist, xenophobic nation who has a name reminiscent of a black American "hate group".

Of course, it's fine with the larger comic book-buying demographic when the patriotically-clad Apollo Creed can beat Rocky Balboa nearly to death and still wind up losing the fight in the end.

The Italian Stallion always trumps the Black Panther AND Apollo Creed where the larger comic book-buying demographic is concerned.

And then of course good ole Apollo corners Rocky in his fight with Clubber,wherein Rocky out-THINKS Apollo during the fight by proving that Rocky is a BETTER copy of the fighter whom Apollo is modeled after--ALI--because Rocky uses a version of the rope-a-dope to outwit Foreman/Liston---errrr,CLUBBER LANG--and beats Clubber.Exactly how ALI beat FOREMAN.Then Apollo commits the unforgivable sin of showing he's Rocky's EQUAL at the end of the movie (the double knock out they inflicted upon each other,thus officially splitting their record at 1-1-1) so that means that APOLLO gotta die for that,and here comes IVAN DRAGO.

Don't buy the hype that Carl Weathers would've OPTED OUT OF A GUARANTEED HIGH PROFILE with the Rocky franchise if the option was there.He would've tried to hang onto the guaranteed ROCKY check,while simultaneously trying to establish his own rising profile.Too bad it really didn't work out for him...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 13, 2007, 04:57:28 pm
If Apollo fought the Panther while wearing his All-American, "Mom's Apple Pie" red, white, and blue huggies, then it would be no contest. Clad in those togs, Creed would be the next best thing to Captain America. The larger comic book-buying demographic would DEMAND an Apollo Creed victory over the African king from a racist, xenophobic nation who has a name reminiscent of a black American "hate group".

Of course, it's fine with the larger comic book-buying demographic when the patriotically-clad Apollo Creed can beat Rocky Balboa nearly to death and still wind up losing the fight in the end.

The Italian Stallion always trumps the Black Panther AND Apollo Creed where the larger comic book-buying demographic is concerned.

And then of course good ole Apollo corners Rocky in his fight with Clubber,wherein Rocky out-THINKS Apollo during the fight by proving that Rocky is a BETTER copy of the fighter whom Apollo is modeled after--ALI--because Rocky uses a version of the rope-a-dope to outwit Foreman/Liston---errrr,CLUBBER LANG--and beats Clubber.Exactly how ALI beat FOREMAN.

Now supreme, we must remember what many members of the larger comic book-buying demographic and other non-comic book-buying members of their racial grouping think when considering what you've just discussed.

Of course the "Italian Stallion" is going to be able to absorb massive punishment deep into the latter rounds of a brutal championship boxing match with the split-image of Muhammad Ali - Apollo Creed - and have the physical and mental where-with-all to outfox and surpise Creed by suddenly "digging deep inside of himself", switching to "southpaw" and unleashing a withering body attack on Creed that exposes Creed's critical physical weakness which would lead to his ultimate defeat in their ill-fated rematch. Why? Because Elvis is the "King". Larry Bird is "Simply The Best" and eminem is the "savior" of Hip Hop kulture and rap music.

Anything black folks can somehow manage to do well, there is always a white person who is able to do it even better.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 13, 2007, 05:18:48 pm
this is a dumb ass thread.

and did ali beat supes? i cant remember.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 13, 2007, 08:22:36 pm
this is a dumb ass thread.

and did ali beat supes? i cant remember.

ali got SMASHED,and that's how it SHOULD be,to be honest.

Now I wanna see SUPERMAN v the Milestone Superman...was that ICON or whatever?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on January 13, 2007, 09:01:20 pm
Ali beat Supes ass.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 13, 2007, 09:09:12 pm
Ali beat Supes ass.

Hahaha,REALLY?  I coulda sworn I remember a picture showing (the cover) where the two of them are charging one another,and then a panel (from the inside) where SUPES just laid a hella shot on Ali and sent Ali literally FLYING.Hahaha.woulda loved to have seen and read the whole thing,because I remember thinking even as a small child that ALI would get murdered by the Man of Steel...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 13, 2007, 09:18:39 pm
Waitaminute,I remember now.Supes had his superpowers REMOVED some kinda way,and because of that Ali whooped off on him,and they teamed up to beat the aliens some kind of way.Supes wasn't as beat up as it looked like he was.Then Ali fought the alien dude,and whooped off on him.Or something.Right?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on January 13, 2007, 09:20:14 pm
Waitaminute,I remember now.Supes had his superpowers REMOVED some kinda way,and because of that Ali whooped off on him,and they teamed up to beat the aliens some kind of way.Supes wasn't as beat up as it looked like he was.Then Ali fought the alien dude,and whooped off on him.Or something.Right?

Yep.  Well, Ali really did whip Supes ass, but beyond that, yeah, that's what happened.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 13, 2007, 09:33:22 pm
Waitaminute,I remember now.Supes had his superpowers REMOVED some kinda way,and because of that Ali whooped off on him,and they teamed up to beat the aliens some kind of way.Supes wasn't as beat up as it looked like he was.Then Ali fought the alien dude,and whooped off on him.Or something.Right?

Yep.  Well, Ali really did whip Supes ass, but beyond that, yeah, that's what happened.

Hahahahahaha,thanx big dawg,I appreciate that,lol.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 13, 2007, 10:23:38 pm
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sharcque on January 14, 2007, 01:23:12 am
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.

Nope.  Not here.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: bluezulu on January 14, 2007, 05:17:59 am
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.
-------------------------------
Naw I think Stallone had to show just how bad a** rocky was by beating arc types of the baddest men on the planet at the time. One was the muhammad ali type and the second was the mike tyson type although rocky III was before tyson went pro and the fight against the russion was just propaganda. So yea the guys are reaching. Instead of hate stallone was giving us props by making us shown as the ultimate to have the itallion stallion come out on top.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 09:53:57 am
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.

Nope.  Not here.

Then I just have to shake my head.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 11:09:12 am
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.

Nope.  Not here.

Then I just have to shake my head.


Dawg,you're taking it a trifle too far.For my part,there's no denying that the symbolism is powerful in the ROCKY movies,but I was poking fun at Stallone's movies.He masterfully played upon the complex psychological issues and history and allat other stuff...but at the end of the day,man...do I LIKE the movies? YES.Most of them,anyway...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 11:19:47 am
No, I'm not taking anything too far.  I'm voicing my opinion that it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving white superiority.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 11:31:54 am
No, I'm not taking anything too far.  I'm voicing my opinion that it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving white superiority.

Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!! Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 14, 2007, 11:47:39 am
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.
-------------------------------
Naw I think Stallone had to show just how bad a** rocky was by beating arc types of the baddest men on the planet at the time. One was the muhammad ali type and the second was the mike tyson type although rocky III was before tyson went pro and the fight against the russion was just propaganda. So yea the guys are reaching. Instead of hate stallone was giving us props by making us shown as the ultimate to have the itallion stallion come out on top.

I was joking. "Half-joking".

So, maybe Stallone was paying a measure of tribute to the skills and stature of Muhammad Ali and Tyson. But to me, it seems that tribute was back-handed at best and did more to satisfy the un-realized desire by many white boxing fans to see a white boxer defeat the "brash" "Louisville Lip", a black man who stood up to the U.S. government and its court system defending the principles he believed in rather than going to Vietnam to kill people who had never wronged him, for this still-racist nation who was at that time, prosecuting an unjust war. Muhammad Ali was proven to be right. Wasn't he?

The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

When jazz singer Diana Krall produces an album that is in tribute to Duke Ellington, then that is exactly what it is. As an artist and lover of jazz music, Krall has an understandable respect and admiration for those jazz greats who came before her and performs their music as a way of honoring them. Many of Diana Krall's white fans, promoters and critics on the other hand seem to want it known that it is a white woman making that jazz music. They often refer to her as the "Platinum Lady of Jazz" or something like that....so that the audience who might not have ever seen Krall before would know from the description that she is a blonde haired, blue-eyed white woman. eminem received the same treatment. He bleached his hair blonde and those promoters of his music made sure to work the fact that he was a blonde haired white rapper into as many discussions about him as they could. Krall and eminem both peform genres of music that were created by black Americans.

So, I don't necessarily believe that Stallone was paying props to Ali or Tyson by having the Italian Stallion defeat both "The Master Of Disaster" Apollo Creed or Clubber Lang, anymore than Elvis' coronation as the King of Rock and Roll is meant ot pay props to Little Richard, Chuck Berry or Fats Domino. I think Balboa's victory over Creed and Lang accomplished the same thing that eminem's defeat of the "upper class" black opponent in the movie "8 Mile" - a movie I DIDN'T and WON'T watch by the way - accomplished. That being to give white audiences a "happy ending" of white people overcoming some stiff opposition of black people.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 12:10:40 pm
Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!!

Um, no.  Why would you think so?

Quote
Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...

So what exactly was "taking it a trifle too far"?  Disagreeing with you?

Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

Quote
I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.

I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example. ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: bluezulu on January 14, 2007, 12:42:10 pm
Come on yall. I also remember the skit by Eddie Murphy that had the black guy go into the bank and get denied for the loan and then a shady white guy come in and the clerk looks to the left and then looks to the right and then without the white guy filling our any paper work, get a loan for as much as he wanted. This showed the genius of murphy as well as he was able to tell one joke and get both sides of the argument. Don't mind these two they are the two millitant midgets :) of the heffa forum. They keep us balanced and we try to keep them balanced as well. Rocky was the white/itallian man crack dream. Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible. I agree with our millitants on the board that some white guys probably took the movie too literlay but it is ironic that the tortoise and the hare fable comes true as we see the struggling white/ Russian/german/european boxer beat the lower of the totem pole black boxers not because they are straight up better but because we can actually make more money athletic wise in other endeavors. This fact more then any other support white folks notion that things are getting better for african americans when we barley have one black heavy weight. Secretly (whispering to yall) im glad. Imagine we don't have to get our brain beat out anymore to make a million. We can sing and dance to do it ;) just joking.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 14, 2007, 12:49:30 pm
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: bluezulu on January 14, 2007, 01:00:08 pm
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.
-----------------------------
I don't think we have to know mr stallone to think that he would not employ black folks and say,you know what I am really trying to show in this scene the superiority of whites, so carl can you really play up my uberness and your limited ability. Ok so let's say that stallone "got away with this in rocky I and II," is mr. t of the gold wearing chain variety who did it as a statement about slavery going to say make me the canon foder for your movies. Well maybe, we did have step n fetchet but clearly imo stallone was indirectly pointing to the uberness of the black male fighter by making the arctypes of known boxers the standerd what which rocky had to overcome. He even made a pseudo statement abou the current state of boxing . I took mason dixon to be roy jones at his prime. As both were clearly good but did not have the competition to face. All boxing fans said if only he had fill in the blank to fight. Well that is what he gave us. Last point. Can any entertainer really make it 30 years in hollywood as a racist? Stallone aint at naacp dinners but I don't think he is at the support david duke ralleys either. Come on brothers let's put this energy some where else where it is more deserved.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 01:07:01 pm
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above.

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

It's on page 1.  He confirmed that he does believe there was a message of white superiority in the ROCKY movies.

I have no doubts that there are those who took satisfaction that a white man "beat that uppity negro's ass" in ROCKY II.  I also have no doubts that there are those who were ticked off that "a honkey mfer was shown beating a brother."  

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 01:14:50 pm
Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible.

I agree with this 100%.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 14, 2007, 02:23:01 pm
Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible.

I agree with this 100%.

bluezulu, you're my moderator and one of the preeminent members of this forum. You have my respect all day long, everyday of the week.

The nazis referred to themselves as the "ultimate man" too, or something approximating that. WWII propaganda movies showing U.S. troops triumphing over the nazis served to illustrate to white America that if they just worked hard and were determined, they could "beat back the hun" and save the world. The same was true for the Russians. Remember the Soviet Red Army Hockey team and the U.S.A. Mike Eruzione-led Hockey team's so-called "Miracle On Ice"? Al Michaels nauseating call, "Do you believe in miracles??? Yes!!!!" If I never hear that again it will be too soon.

Yes, the Soviets were great. They were dominant. There is a penchant by many in this country for casting themselves as "David" to someone else's "Goliath". Recall the 1985 NCAA Basketball Championship between Rollie Massamino's Villanova team - which featured black and white players - vs John Thompson's "intimidating"  all-black Georgetown Hoya basketball team. They called it "Hoya Paranoia". The game took place years ago, but I can still remember Brent Musburger's enthusiastic call of the game that favored the underdog Villanova Wildcats. I thought that old man was going to have a sexual orgasm on t.v. after Villanova pulled off the upset of Georgetown.

I'm sure you remember the movie "Hoosiers". I never watched the movie all the way through, but I do remember that at the end, the team proved its mettle and redeemed its embattled coach by defeating an all-black high school basketball team in the climactic contest. The movie "8-Mile" was just another version of one of those stupid Rocky movies. The only difference being that the battling was done on a stage rather than in a boxing ring.

Do you remember the 1987 NBA Eastern Conference Finals, game 5 I believe it was, when Larry Bird's steal of an Isiah Thomas inbounds pass led to a Celtic victory over the Pistons and afterward when the mostly-white reporters were gushing about Bird's accomplishment, Isiah Thomas - who had heard more than enough of the praise for Bird - quipped that the reporters (and probably much of white America), must believe that black basketball players emerge from their mother's wombs dribbling basketballs. Thomas was saying that while white basketball players are often credited with being brainy and skilled players, that black players are dismissed as being "naturally gifted". That almost sounds like being called the "archtype of the ultimate man" to me. Many whites always set that standard. They go in to such contests against black opponents in athletic endeavors believing themselves to be the underdog because while they "work hard" and are "determined" they are often going against black athletes who are "naturally gifted, archtypes of the ultimate man."

What? Michael Jordan didn't have to work hard to become the best ever?
Muhammad Ali didn't have to work hard to become "The Greatest Of All Time"?

That's what many white people would have us believe.

Did you happen to watch the movie "Friday Night Lights"? The Dallas Carter High School football team - all-black naturally - were portrayed as big, powerful, athletic, arrogant, naturally-gifted bruisers who probably didn't have to work hard at all to be as great as they were. They were black athletes after all. Conversely, here's poor, "hard-working" and "determined" mostly-white Odessa Permian High School bravely bucking the odds and giving it all they have to defeat the "archtype of the ultimate man" in the guise of high school football players.

I'm going to leave this alone now. As you've said, I should get back to discussing the Panther and Panther-related topics. But I for one will NEVER believe that Stallone was attempting to  portray Creed and Lang as the "archtype" of anything other than what much of white America viewed Ali and Tyson to be. One was a flashy, unbeatable big mouth and the other was an unstoppable destroyer. Stallone's intent was to thrill white audiences by allowing them to indulge in the fantasy of watching both of those types of fighters receive their comeuppance at the hands of a white, Italian club brawler.

I'm done now  ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 14, 2007, 03:41:23 pm
What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 04:28:08 pm
What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sharcque on January 14, 2007, 04:33:00 pm
Tyson wasn't even really big-time yet when Rocky III came out, was he?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sharcque on January 14, 2007, 04:42:08 pm
The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: D- Ruck on January 14, 2007, 06:27:50 pm
The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.

Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 06:59:26 pm
Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!!

Um, no.  Why would you think so?

Quote
Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...

So what exactly was "taking it a trifle too far"?  Disagreeing with you?

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even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

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I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.

I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example. ;)


Look Jonathanos....

I did NOT say that I thought Stallone was a racist on page one,or anything remotely similar to your charges on page 2.On page 1,I was HALF-JOKING as I previously stated.If you took it to be something else...after I have TWICE now corrected you...then fine.Carry on and delude yourself as you please.

Your comment:"Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion." Is also entirely inaccurate.I told you what I thought about that issue already,and how I felt Stallone quite masterfully mined the wealth of perceptions and passions stirred by his ROCKY movies for his benefit and made some strong statements in the process.As I stated...I like most of the ROCKY series.I WOULD NOT like something wherein I think that the main thrust of the movie was both racist and emasculating Black men.I simultaneously DO NOT delude myself into thinking that quite a few White people would love to see a White guy overwhelm the dominant Black athlete...especially in such a manly sport as boxing.The fact that they have failed to do so partially accounts for the amazing and suddenly explosive popularity of MMA...as MMA requires more skill sets,the general perception is that a MMA guy can take a boxer,and far and away the most participants in MMA who get well paid are WHITE.Therefore,the subtle suggestion is that MMA>BOXING and WHITE MMA>BLACK BOXER.It's a testosterone thing.It's also shoddy logic,but it's an important aspect of the appeal...however unstated it is.Btw,I'm a MMA athlete and weapons practitioner,and I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

In regards to ROCKY...I repeat...in the end it's a movie series.Which I generally like.I don't know Stallone nor do I want to,frankly.I won't eschew meeting him if he wants to meet me,but I won't go out of my way to meet him or comment upon his beliefs because I am not Jean or Xavier and I suck at reading minds.
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even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above.

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

It's on page 1.  He confirmed that he does believe there was a message of white superiority in the ROCKY movies.

I have no doubts that there are those who took satisfaction that a white man "beat that uppity negro's ass" in ROCKY II.  I also have no doubts that there are those who were ticked off that "a honkey mfer was shown beating a brother."  

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.


This is NOT true.On page 1 is an obviously half-serious,tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of ROCKY.Or at least,it SHOULD have been obvious.Also on page 1 is my contention that SUPERMAN should have SMASHED Ali.I noticed you said nary a word about that.How unsurprising.
What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.


When I go in looking for something,I'll TELL you,Jonathanos.NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.I hope my position is clear on this matter.
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even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

Curtis is absolutely correct.The underlined statement he referred to is MY OWN.When I am specifically not joking,as the manner with which I treat the subject matter in that portion of the post clearly demonstrates.I hope I have made my position transparently clear even to the most mentally challenged of us whom populate the online community...and that is,once again,that I don't have the position as Jonathanos (mis)states and (mis)understands it,but as I specifically and repeatedly stated in the last two posts of mine.If I have failed,then I have failed with those individuals whom DON'T WANT to grasp my position in the first place,and frankly I don't care about their opinions,whomever they may be.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 08:10:57 pm
Look Jonathanos....

I did NOT say that I thought Stallone was a racist on page one,or anything remotely similar to your charges on page 2.On page 1,I was HALF-JOKING as I previously stated.If you took it to be something else...after I have TWICE now corrected you...then fine.Carry on and delude yourself as you please.

I didn't say that you called Stallone a racist.  You have commented on what you view as a message of white superiority in the Rocky films.  Whether you believe it was due to Stallone's beliefs or Stallone playing on the desires of others isn't something I'm concerned with.  I said that in my opinion it's ridiculous to insinuate ROCKY has anything to do with the idea of white superiority.  To which you replied (verbatim):

"You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me..."

That didn't really come across to me as "No, no, you got it all wrong."

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Your comment:"Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion." Is also entirely inaccurate.I told you what I thought about that issue already,and how I felt Stallone quite masterfully mined the wealth of perceptions and passions stirred by his ROCKY movies for his benefit and made some strong statements in the process.As I stated...I like most of the ROCKY series.I WOULD NOT like something wherein I think that the main thrust of the movie was both racist and emasculating Black men.

I don't remember claiming you said it was central, or even important, to the series.

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I simultaneously DO NOT delude myself into thinking that quite a few White people would love to see a White guy overwhelm the dominant Black athlete...especially in such a manly sport as boxing.The fact that they have failed to do so partially accounts for the amazing and suddenly explosive popularity of MMA...as MMA requires more skill sets,the general perception is that a MMA guy can take a boxer,and far and away the most participants in MMA who get well paid are WHITE.Therefore,the subtle suggestion is that MMA>BOXING and WHITE MMA>BLACK BOXER.It's a testosterone thing.It's also shoddy logic,but it's an important aspect of the appeal...however unstated it is.Btw,I'm a MMA athlete and weapons practitioner,and I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

The more people who are involved in a sport, the better.

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In regards to ROCKY...I repeat...in the end it's a movie series.Which I generally like.I don't know Stallone nor do I want to,frankly.I won't eschew meeting him if he wants to meet me,but I won't go out of my way to meet him or comment upon his beliefs because I am not Jean or Xavier and I suck at reading minds.

I did initially say that I was going to assume those posts were joking.  Sin assured me he wasn't.  I shook my head at that.  You told me I was taking it too far.  I said (paraphrased): "No, all I was doing was giving my opinion on how ridiculous it is to suggest ROCKY being in part about proving white superiority."  You then said quite a few, including yourself, disagree.  And here we are.

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This is NOT true.On page 1 is an obviously half-serious,tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of ROCKY.Or at least,it SHOULD have been obvious. Also on page 1 is my contention that SUPERMAN should have SMASHED Ali.I noticed you said nary a word about that.How unsurprising.

Not only had you recalled that Superman had his powers stripped away from him for the bout, another poster confirmed that Superman was beaten fair and square by Ali.

What was left to say?

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What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.

When I go in looking for something,I'll TELL you,Jonathanos.NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.I hope my position is clear on this matter.

Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 

I mean, first, Rocky lost the first bout even though Creed wasn't properly trained.  And second, Rocky won the rematch but only by ONE SECOND and it was outright stated that he couldn't have won had he not trained to fight right-handed.  And let's not forget that it is strongly implied in the third film that Rocky's win is also due in part to the fact Creed was no longer at his best (having lost "the eye of the tiger, the edge!").  So I can't see any reasonable way one could come away from the series believing that it had anything to do with proving white superiority.

I came away from ROCKY believing it played off of the desire of the down-on-their-lucks to believe they can rise above the obstacles that face them and thrive.  That they can reach the unreachable star, beat the unbeatable foe, right the unrightable wrong, etc. etc.

And also that you shouldn't treat your opposition lightly as Apollo did in the first and fourth films and as Rocky did in the third.

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Curtis is absolutely correct.The underlined statement he referred to is MY OWN.When I am specifically not joking,as the manner with which I treat the subject matter in that portion of the post clearly demonstrates.I hope I have made my position transparently clear even to the most mentally challenged of us whom populate the online community...and that is,once again,that I don't have the position as Jonathanos (mis)states and (mis)understands it,but as I specifically and repeatedly stated in the last two posts of mine.If I have failed,then I have failed with those individuals whom DON'T WANT to grasp my position in the first place,and frankly I don't care about their opinions,whomever they may be.


See early on.  If we misunderstood one another, no harm no foul.  I won't even take offense at the implied insult. ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 08:21:36 pm
I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.We agree on the final essential,regardless of how we reached that conclusion: We misunderstood each other. Therefore,as you indicated,no harm no foul.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 14, 2007, 08:26:11 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 
You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 08:27:40 pm
I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.

It would fail anyway. :P
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 08:31:48 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 
You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing.  I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 14, 2007, 08:34:49 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 
You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing. 
Yeah, I got that.  It is, however, what I am talking about.

I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.
Good.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 08:50:17 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 
You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

It's not just you,dawg...

I could parry much of the foregoing matter in your post,Jonathanos,and follow through with a fatal thrust,but that's not needed.

It would fail anyway. :P

many a person prior to you--and with stronger arguments than yours--have made that same statement,I'm just getting tired of planting more people than THE GRIM REAPER. In fact,THE REAPER came by just a few minutes ago to ask me not to plant you either,because if I continue doing so ole GRIMMY will be out of a job.Since I don't fancy the cowl and sickle look--that should belong to THE REAPER and THE ORDER OF THE JEDI KNIGHTS,lol--I relented.

But I may change my mind.The point that Curtis raised is not even the beginning of the infinite multiverses of whoopins that I could unleash upon many of the premises that support your conlcusion.However,as I stated before,where we disagree at we disagree at,and we have misunderstood each other.I am willing to let matters lie as they are.I am willing to drop the issue.Right now.I hope you are as well.

Or are you interested in deconstructing our differing perspectives on ROCKY? I personally don't see how it could be edifying to anybody except you and those whom share your perspectives...and that edification would be only insofar as you are willing to consider a differing perspective than yours. Being not only Black but a practitioner of the very disciplines and more that ROCKY glamorizes onscreen,I would submit that my perspective would be sharply different from yours (assuming that you are NOT Black and engaged in like activities),and illuminate--haha--issues that you have no actual window into or frame of reference for.Therefore,some form of important lack of comprehension on YOUR part is inescapable.Since I am fully aware of this aspect of a discussion on this matter that we may engage upon and at this moment unwilling to ILLUMINATE you,I suggest that we let the matter lie.If you insist upon illumination,then I will oblige.But remember that old adage about being careful what you wish for...because you just might get it.In my case,I assure you,Jonathanos,you will most certainly "get it".
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority. 
You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

Its success is a separate issue from what I'm discussing.  I agree that it very likely wouldn't have been as successful if the protagonist had not been white.

This admission by you is a nod not only to the fact that White people--like anybody else--respond best to White people whom they can relate to regardless of the venue or subject matter,but also the kind of bogeyman that Black superathletes have become in the minds of White Americans. Put another way...if the exact same story was told and the protagonist was Black,and defeated White foes,and you acknowledge that you agree that ROCKY wouldn't be as successful using this formula...then you have simultaneously acknowledged the racial morass and intense psychological interplay that race and class play in this country.That all by itself will be the beginning of your destruction in a debate,because you fail to see and grasp in a direct sense where this discussion MUST inevitably lead...which is that no matter how powerful the "against the odds,never say die" lesson of willpower and basic strength of character that ROCKY demonstrates (and he DOES do this,and he does it well) the racial element of specifically defeating BLACK boxers is what will and must torpedo your contentions as I understand them.

I understand your contention to be that ROCKY has nothing whatsoever to do with White supremacy/racism and the fragility of the psyche that this kind of "philosophy" can bring about.ROCKY's success--and your acknowledgement that the same morale and story wouldn't be as successful if ROCKY had been BLACK--is all the damning evidence needed to make my statement concrete,and yours ultimately inaccurate.

So,again,let's just let this matter lie. We disagree in certain areas...irreconcilably.In the main area we agree...that of an misunderstanding.No harm,no foul,as you stated.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 14, 2007, 08:50:52 pm

You may certainly think that if you like.  I think that it's success does have to do with the everyman overcoming the odds.  The fact that the everyman in question is white and that the foes he overcomes are black may even be incidental to the story.  However, I am convinced that it is not incidental to the movies' popularity.  I can't imagine Black Rocky having the same box office success.  But maybe that's just me.

I can't imagine "Black Rocky" having the same box office success either.

David Goyer said that when he first pitched his "Blade" movies to New Line Entertainment, they wondered if the movie wouldn't enjoy more success if a white man was cast to play the part of Blade instead of portraying the Vampire Slayer as he was originally created, as a black man. Given this mindset, I wouldn't be surprised that a "Black Rocky" movie would not be as successful at the box office.

I wonder if those fans who loved "Rocky" and "Hoosiers" also loved "Glory Road" as much. Somehow, I rather doubt it.

Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 14, 2007, 08:52:53 pm
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier? And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 14, 2007, 08:54:24 pm
If you say so, SI...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 14, 2007, 08:55:59 pm
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier. And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...


hahaha,you and those "8s' of yours...

hey,wasn't SUGAR RAY ROBINSON from Philly? And B.HOP?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: voodoochild on January 15, 2007, 10:12:43 am

 I think all that noise in MMA will change as soon as the financial compensation becomes more on par with boxing...and with SHOWTIME and HBO preparing to jump on the MMA bandwagon,the paydays will soon increase...and then here come the bruthas en masse.

Yeah, not too many Brothers are going to risk their health for the pocket change they pay those MMA fighters.  Compared to boxing purses, that's like fighting for free.  I didn't know Showtime and HBO were planning on showing matches.  That's cool. 
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: voodoochild on January 15, 2007, 10:21:51 am
I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.

Box office stats would disagree. ;D

Rocky: domestic gross $117,235,147
Rocky 2: $85,182,160
Rocky 3: $124,146,897
Rocky 4: $127,873,716
Rocky 5(and here's where the wheels came off): $40,946,358

but wait...the sh*t aint over...

Rocky Balboa: $65,723,000 domestic and counting.  With a budget of 24mil, Balboa is a certified hit.

I left off the Rambo numbers because we're discussing Rocky flicks.  Stallone may not be the best actor in the world, but dude is far from stupid.  He wrote the first Rocky film and held out until the studio allowed him to play the lead.  Career made, the rest is history.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 15, 2007, 01:58:13 pm
I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.

Box office stats would disagree. ;D

Rocky: domestic gross $117,235,147
Rocky 2: $85,182,160
Rocky 3: $124,146,897
Rocky 4: $127,873,716
Rocky 5(and here's where the wheels came off): $40,946,358

but wait...the sh*t aint over...

Rocky Balboa: $65,723,000 domestic and counting.  With a budget of 24mil, Balboa is a certified hit.

I left off the Rambo numbers because we're discussing Rocky flicks.  Stallone may not be the best actor in the world, but dude is far from stupid.  He wrote the first Rocky film and held out until the studio allowed him to play the lead.  Career made, the rest is history.



I agree that Stallone is much sharper than the average person gives him credit for.He also wrote RAMBO and did the training in MA for it...something that was pretty revolutionary for American actors during that time...
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Francisco on January 15, 2007, 02:01:28 pm
Rocky does have white supremcist undertones or at least that's the way I see it. I liked the first one and the last one. The rest are crap loaded propaganda.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Marvelous on January 15, 2007, 02:12:35 pm
What the hell does the race have to do with the battle, damn fellaz.  It's 2 people fighting, stick with the damn thread topic.  And it doesn't have $#!7 to do wtih the movies.  Just put Apollo in the MU and have them fight.  "What if hes was white, what if Rocky was black doesn't have $%#& to do with it.  Try to stay on topic, dayum.

/end vent  >:(
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Francisco on January 15, 2007, 02:16:33 pm
one punch Apollo is dead T'Challa wins. ;D
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Yaw on January 15, 2007, 02:43:06 pm


I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example. ;)



you are thinking about the wrong Eddie Murphy scene.  His commentary on Rocky was in his stand-up movie, Raw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fp67geuhJM).

I think you will also find this very memorable.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Yaw on January 15, 2007, 02:59:36 pm
What the hell does the race have to do with the battle, damn fellaz.  It's 2 people fighting, stick with the damn thread topic.  And it doesn't have $#!7 to do wtih the movies.  Just put Apollo in the MU and have them fight.  "What if hes was white, what if Rocky was black doesn't have $%#& to do with it.  Try to stay on topic, dayum.

/end vent  >:(

maybe if the thread topic didn't suck so bad.  I mean Creed got killed by an idiot Russian. Tchalla beatdown 6 men solo in his draws.  No contest?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Yaw on January 15, 2007, 03:05:57 pm
With all these new members to this board in the past week and the posts made inthis thread remind me why Black folks have and need to have barbershops, street corners, pool halls etc, to commune with one another away from others outside of the community.  If it weren't for these outlets we would go insane because of the insistence on outsiders defining our reality.

Anyways back to the topic at hand...

Oh wait Apollo Creed got whooped...

NEXT!
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Hulkster on January 15, 2007, 03:12:53 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority.
 

Now couldn't you say the same about people coming away from Reggie's books thinking that it has anything to do with portraying all or most whites as racist?

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I mean, first, Rocky lost the first bout even though Creed wasn't properly trained.  And second, Rocky won the rematch but only by ONE SECOND and it was outright stated that he couldn't have won had he not trained to fight right-handed.  And let's not forget that it is strongly implied in the third film that Rocky's win is also due in part to the fact Creed was no longer at his best (having lost "the eye of the tiger, the edge!").  So I can't see any reasonable way one could come away from the series believing that it had anything to do with proving white superiority.

I agree with you here.  Add that Creed would have won if he would have stayed away in the last round as instructed instead of going for the KO and Rocky lost the first fight to Lang.  And the next two movies involve white adversaries.  So including the most recent movie, we have 3 black opponents and two white opponents..  Also, Stallone did write the script in anticipation of playing the lead role himself and the movie was inspired by an Ali fight.  He wanted an Ali type character to play the champion.

But I do think, as you guys have discussed, that the success of the movie was greatly influenced by the lead character's race and the fact that he was overcoming the then black dominated heavyweight championship.  But that has nothing to do with Stalone's motivations.

Quote
I came away from ROCKY believing it played off of the desire of the down-on-their-lucks to believe they can rise above the obstacles that face them and thrive.  That they can reach the unreachable star, beat the unbeatable foe, right the unrightable wrong, etc. etc.

Agreed.  And I believe that Stalone strongly had himself in mind when creating this character.

Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sharcque on January 15, 2007, 03:24:39 pm
What the hell does the race have to do with the battle, damn fellaz.  It's 2 people fighting, stick with the damn thread topic.  And it doesn't have $#!7 to do wtih the movies.  Just put Apollo in the MU and have them fight.  "What if hes was white, what if Rocky was black doesn't have $%#& to do with it.  Try to stay on topic, dayum.

/end vent  >:(
Why are you surprised?  It always happens.  Every single thread that's started here has undertones of white people hating black people.  Haven't you learned?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 15, 2007, 03:47:21 pm


I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example. ;)



you are thinking about the wrong Eddie Murphy scene.  His commentary on Rocky was in his stand-up movie, Raw ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fp67geuhJM[/url]).

I think you will also find this very memorable.


Personally, I find the CTA scene to be superior.

If you're referring strictly to the commentary-- Eddie Murphy may very well have come upon some people like that, but I don't think he was trying to suggest that it was due to a message the movies were trying to get across.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Jonathanos on January 15, 2007, 03:48:48 pm
Many people either don't know or won't admit when they do go in looking for something.  I think you have to be looking for it to come away from ROCKY thinking it has anything to do with satisfying many white people's desire for white superiority.
 

Now couldn't you say the same about people coming away from Reggie's books thinking that it has anything to do with portraying all or most whites as racist?


There's a poster at herochat doing a detailed thread of what he dislikes about the run and how he views it.  Some things I agree with, others I don't.

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php/topic,127072.msg2030477.html#msg2030477

Quote
Quote
I came away from ROCKY believing it played off of the desire of the down-on-their-lucks to believe they can rise above the obstacles that face them and thrive.  That they can reach the unreachable star, beat the unbeatable foe, right the unrightable wrong, etc. etc.


Agreed.  And I believe that Stalone strongly had himself in mind when creating this character.


I think this can be stated as a fact, actually.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Sam Wilson on January 15, 2007, 06:07:20 pm
Raw ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fp67geuhJM[/url]).

I think you will also find this very memorable.


did someone say raw?

(http://www.hiphop-blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/bigdaddykane.jpg)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: bluezulu on January 15, 2007, 06:19:06 pm
Yall just don't know how close I have been to 1) deleting this thread 2) closing this thread 3) renaming the topic to take any mention of the black panther out of it and moving it somewhere else. Focus mayne focus.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Yaw on January 15, 2007, 06:29:08 pm
Yall just don't know how close I have been to 1) deleting this thread 2) closing this thread 3) renaming the topic to take any mention of the black panther out of it and moving it somewhere else. Focus mayne focus.

 8)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 15, 2007, 06:43:12 pm
delete it homey.
i won't miss it.

oh shucks... 24 is back on.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 15, 2007, 07:43:08 pm
Panther absolutely and totally crushes Apollo...or he would simply ignore Apollo,walk off and let  the DM finish him off.which they would.They'd snore him with their sweet teamwork and martial skills.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: GrimSkill on January 15, 2007, 08:56:47 pm
Actualy I could see Apollo and T'Challa setting down and having a Drink Togeather (Tea of course) and talking about fighting styles.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 15, 2007, 10:14:19 pm
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier. And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...


hahaha,you and those "8s' of yours...


 :) All that damned troll noise woke me up early. Now I'll have to reach #512...and do so quickly... if I am to realize the full benefit of my #8 hibernation regimen  :D

hmmmm...Sugar Ray Robinson. Wasn't he from St. Louis or Detroit?

Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 15, 2007, 10:18:06 pm
Actualy I could see Apollo and T'Challa setting down and having a Drink Togeather (Tea of course) and talking about fighting styles.

For Apollo's sake, sitting down and drinking tea together with T'Challa while only talking about fighting styles would be as close as they get to actually fighting. Wouldn't you agree, Grim?  ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 15, 2007, 10:26:47 pm
Panther absolutely and totally crushes Apollo...or he would simply ignore Apollo,walk off and let  the DM finish him off.which they would.They'd snore him with their sweet teamwork and martial skills.

 :D!!!!

Once again, we have all been "supremely illuminated". How else could a fight between Apollo Creed *snicker* and T'Challa commence and conclude?

What the hell does the race have to do with the battle, damn fellaz.  It's 2 people fighting, stick with the damn thread topic.  And it doesn't have $#!7 to do wtih the movies.  Just put Apollo in the MU and have them fight.  "What if hes was white, what if Rocky was black doesn't have $%#& to do with it.  Try to stay on topic, dayum.

/end vent  >:(

maybe if the thread topic didn't suck so bad.  I mean Creed got killed by an idiot Russian. Tchalla beatdown 6 men solo in his draws.  No contest?

Ouch.  Sometimes, the truth hurts.  ;)

delete it homey.
i won't miss it.

oh shucks... 24 is back on.

Aw, I'll bet "it" (the thread), won't miss you either.

Shoudln't you now be working on "BLACK" and making Sunspot the leader   anyway?  :)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 16, 2007, 12:20:28 pm
SINnnnn... i thought we were boys.

u words wound me.
 :D
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Marvelous on January 16, 2007, 04:11:17 pm
SINnnnn... i thought we were boys.

u words wound me.
 :D

Shut it MM, both of you woundeded me!   :D
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 16, 2007, 08:15:59 pm
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier. And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...

Ya know,I don't remember honestly...I'm sure about B.HOP and a host of other raw dawg fighters,but...Sugar Ray? *rushes to Google* Walker Smith Jr.--who would later become Sugar Ray Robinson--was born in Ailey Georgia,and raised in Detroit and Harlem.Damn,you were waaay closer than me,dawg...


hahaha,you and those "8s' of yours...


 :) All that damned troll noise woke me up early. Now I'll have to reach #512...and do so quickly... if I am to realize the full benefit of my #8 hibernation regimen  :D

hmmmm...Sugar Ray Robinson. Wasn't he from St. Louis or Detroit?


Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 17, 2007, 07:32:33 am
this is a dumb ass thread.

and did ali beat supes? i cant remember.


ali got SMASHED,and that's how it SHOULD be,to be honest.

Now I wanna see SUPERMAN v the Milestone Superman...was that ICON or whatever?

You... you mean you haven't read this?
(http://www.mdbright.com/ICON16cover.jpeg)
I don't know if I can talk to you anymore.... ;)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 17, 2007, 08:14:18 am
this is a dumb ass thread.

and did ali beat supes? i cant remember.


ali got SMASHED,and that's how it SHOULD be,to be honest.

Now I wanna see SUPERMAN v the Milestone Superman...was that ICON or whatever?

You... you mean you haven't read this?
([url]http://www.mdbright.com/ICON16cover.jpeg[/url])
I don't know if I can talk to you anymore.... ;)



HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Man,I wanted to buy that book but...check this out...my LCS DIDN'T CARRY A SINGLE MILESTONE BOOK...even though THEY HAD EVERY OTHER DC COMIC.That's when I went looking for a new LCS
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 17, 2007, 08:58:05 am
never even knew it existed.

so...who won?
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Ammar on January 17, 2007, 09:46:26 am
I never even knew that Milestone existed. Seems DC didn't try to push it hard enough... so what was the deal with black Superman? What was his origin?

And as for racial undertones in the Rocky movies....ehh...I think it's stretching, unless the writer and/or director does indeed have a history of making.... politically suspiscious movies. Then I can see why people draw those conclusions.

And as for the fight? BP spanks him, hard.
The red/white/blue didn't save Apollo from the proud Communist...and it will definatly not help him against the--

Hey, does Wakanda even have a flag? I've never seen it
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 17, 2007, 01:12:22 pm
I never even knew that Milestone existed. Seems DC didn't try to push it hard enough... so what was the deal with black Superman? What was his origin?

And as for racial undertones in the Rocky movies....ehh...I think it's stretching, unless the writer and/or director does indeed have a history of making.... politically suspiscious movies. Then I can see why people draw those conclusions.

And as for the fight? BP spanks him, hard.
The red/white/blue didn't save Apollo from the proud Communist...and it will definatly not help him against the--

Hey, does Wakanda even have a flag? I've never seen it


You never knew Milestone existed?  :o

DC used to put adds of Milestone in the DC titles for awhile. DC pushed it to an extent (albeit not enough) as they were principle in Milestones distribution.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 17, 2007, 01:15:46 pm
i knew about it but i was poor so i couldn't and didn't collect them. i didnt have the ends to take a chance on somethin' i was unfamiliar with.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Francisco on January 17, 2007, 02:22:01 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Vic Vega on January 17, 2007, 03:01:44 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 17, 2007, 03:48:12 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.

Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 18, 2007, 12:56:20 am
never even knew it existed.

so...who won?

Man, I was trying to sort out some scans, but stuff just wasn't working. I'll summarise for now:
A creditable draw on both sides.
Superman has more raw power and speed, but Icon is a cleverer fighter who adapts his tactics. Their first punch is nearly a double-KO, adn causes a massive explosion, and both remain conscious, but dazed. They fight on, until Rift, the god-like being responsible for the whole crossover, calls an end to it, saying that neither of them is going to give in, or lose.

Think you can get it off Mile High comics. (http://www.milehighcomics.com) I rate it as one of the best crossovers ever.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 18, 2007, 01:05:51 am
ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.
Quite right on Rocket, the book is really about her, and she's a fantastic character. Holocaust was pretty much everyone's nemesis, wasn't he? He ended up with beef with the Blood Syndicate, Icon, Static, Hardware and the Shadow Cabinet (and the police, the mayor, etc.).

Icon and Static both could have done with more recurring vilains, but they did have some good ones. For Icon, the best had to be Oblivion - the fight between him and Rocket, Buck and Icon lasted about 3 issues.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 18, 2007, 01:31:31 am
Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.
Great summary, although I remember fan reaction to Icon in space being far more positive, with the Earth being put on trial and Icon defending it, adn Rocket acting as a witness... Great stories. And please, don't tell me you didn't love Buck Wild, Mercenary Man's turn as Icon ("The White Man's gravity cannot hold me down! Kwaanzaa!"). ;D Buck was brilliant every time he appeared, right up until the end. :'( But yeah, the return of the real Icon was brilliant.

Also, like you said, one of the great things about Icon adn Rocket was that they demonstrated just how African-American culture is not monolithic, and has plenty of variety and differences.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 18, 2007, 10:57:34 am
Great summary, although I remember fan reaction to Icon in space being far more positive, with the Earth being put on trial and Icon defending it, adn Rocket acting as a witness... Great stories. And please, don't tell me you didn't love Buck Wild, Mercenary Man's turn as Icon ("The White Man's gravity cannot hold me down! Kwaanzaa!"). ;D Buck was brilliant every time he appeared, right up until the end. :'( But yeah, the return of the real Icon was brilliant.

Also, like you said, one of the great things about Icon adn Rocket was that they demonstrated just how African-American culture is not monolithic, and has plenty of variety and differences.

Yeah, I don't think fans had a problem with the whole trial and fight in space either. What drew fan complaints, according to the guys at Milestone, was that after that particular arc, Augustus Freeman IV was not going to return to Earth and was going to leave the title altogether. the writers then changed their mind which all in all I think was a good idea. However, I understand what they were trying to do in the that "Icon" was not suppose to be anyone person permanently. It is an ideal or symbol to live up to. I would guess that Rocket would eventually have become Icon as the series progressed if the writers had continued with their original plan..
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Francisco on January 18, 2007, 12:23:09 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 18, 2007, 01:23:22 pm
Did you ever read Icon, Cisco?  I remember it being a lot of fun.  The political stuff is there but not in the foreground.  I really like the origin story and him being older and wiser.  Just curious whether you were reacting to the description here or the book itself.  It's cool either way.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 18, 2007, 01:53:40 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic with you comments or if your serious. If your serious then my response is to ask if you read a significant number of issues from the series? Alot of the things you say you wanted to see actually happened in that series so some of your comments are confusing. The police did not always point their guns at Icon, but his was initially what happened when he showed up on the scene depending on the circumstances. Eventually this didn't happen and he even worked with the city officials from time to time, but he still faced other problems that occurred due to him being black that Superman supposedly didn't. Thus it was important that the story show how a super hero faces racism as opposed to a civilian. Not to say that the character didn't run into issues even when he wasn't dressed up as Icon. Also half the time, he would try to explain some occurrences away as being something other than what it was. It was Rocket, more often than not, who would see what happens to him and speak out about the discrimination he alone or they together faced.

As far as Augustus being an "alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire", that was part of how he had the value system he had as opposed to Rocket. He was an alien so the character had a unique perspective to be unbiased in certain situations. Yet he had lived as a black man so he was able to understand the African American experience first hand.  Rocket was the young, impulsive kid from the 'hood element for the story who really was the main focus of the book. It was Rocket who created Icon after all. It was a kinda of coming of age story actually.

Milestone had intended Icon to present real social issues from the African American perspective along with action. in fact, all of their titles did this to a degree. That was what Milestone was using to differentiate themselves from DC and Marvel. Not saying the big Two didn't bring up social issues because they did. However, Milestone just brought those issues to light from a different perspective than the other companies. Teen pregnancy of a super hero character, racism toward individuals (not discrimination of mutants). gang violence and how it affects families and futures are some of the things Milestone wanted to express. Action was just part of the mix.If all you want is straight action then none of the Milestone comics might have been your taste. You definitely should have stuck with DC or Marvel titles. But take note that you had your fires and earthquakes (Worlds Collide arc), chemical or magical elements that turned people into super beings, love interests (he was dating the mayor for a brief time and Rocket had a "baby daddy") and he had to deal with things regular black people face just as Augustus Freeman IV. The only thing he really needed was some more super villains in addition to Holocaust and Surge. But then the series only went 42 issues. IF there had been time we all could have seen some more development of the character and stories I would think. unfortunately Milestone didn't get he chance as the series ended and their was no real wrap up. It just sorta stopped in mid-story. The positive thing is that Icon was the last title Milestone had before it went under. All the other titles had been canceled . Icon itself actually won a number of awards.

As for the thing about who is more likely to face racism,  Oprah or some other black person who is not rich? The truth is, BOTH. In fact I am surprised you use Oprah as an example as she has experience racism,even after she became famous and she has talked about those experiences. Does she run into as many as a black person on the street? Probably not, but she still has run into them ans so have alot of other wealthy blacks. That's that scenario were a black person who has "made it" thinks now that there rich, very one who deals with them sees green. Well, just ask Michael Jackson, OJ, Clarence Thomas (though he probably deserved it like OJ  :) ) and a certain president of a major entertainment company who writes comics what they think about that.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 18, 2007, 09:03:51 pm
I couldn't never get into Icon. The guys just didn't appeal to me in the same way of Superman does.
They should have made him more isnpiring and a real black guy with super powers not just an extra terrestrial that took the shape of a black man.


ICON the book was more about the growth and maturation of his sidekick Rocket than about Icon beating folks up. I think that turned some folks off who were expecting more razzle-dazzle.

Also aside from Holocaust, I don't think Icon had many compelling villians.

Icon was more than just an alien who fell to earth and took the shape of a black man. The point was to see the dynamic of a "black" alien (Icon) and what he would go through as to a "white" alien (Superman) experienced. For instance Superman shows up to save the day and everybody cheers and applauds. When Icon first starting showing up the police tried to shoot him and Rocket. He continuously had problems that were related to the black experience in which a white hero like Superman never would. That was tone point of the book aside from showing the maturity of Rocket. Another idea of the book was to have a different individual assume the role of Icon as Icon was supposed to be an ideal not specifically a person. However, when the story arc occurred where Icon was going to leave earth, apparently there was fan backlash and the writers at Milestone changed their minds and kept him the story. Good thing to because the guy who took over the mantle was a purposefully silly characterization of Luke Cage. When Icon came back to Earth he had some new gadgets and supposedly increased power. Unfortunately, you never really get to see how this pans out since the comic was canceled not long after when Milestone folded.

I also felt Icon showed the two polar opposites of how black Americans feel about our situation in the world. For example, Icon was more of a black conservative who believed that black people needed to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop blaming the "man" for all it's ills. Rocket on the other hand was supposedly from the 'hood and was more liberal about her views based on how and where she lived. In this relationship both partners learned to be more sympathetic to the others point of view.



 
I don't know man. Let's put it this way. If a black flying guy started saving people from fires and earthquakes and stuff like that I think it would be farfetched to have Cops aiming guns at him just because he's black. I know that political commentary is good and all but, I just want brainless action with huge explosions, alien invasions, demons, vampires, evil geniuses and stuff like that. They should have kept the politics out of the equation and have ICON to be the Black Superman who fights evil. Instead of century old alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire, they should have made him a late 20's lawyer, scientist or police officer who was exposed to some sort of chemical or magical element, which granted him powers beyond those of mere mortals. He should have had a girlfriend and several love interests. If he was to face racism and discrimination he should face them as a civilian not as a Superhero. I mean, who is more likely to fell victim of racism Oprah or us. At least she has her millions and lawyers to fall back on. So should've been with Icon. On his identity as Icon he would be revered by the world but when he's back on his identity as regular guy then he would be faced with the things regular black people (and people in general) had to deal with in their daily activities.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic with you comments or if your serious. If your serious then my response is to ask if you read a significant number of issues from the series? Alot of the things you say you wanted to see actually happened in that series so some of your comments are confusing. The police did not always point their guns at Icon, but his was initially what happened when he showed up on the scene depending on the circumstances. Eventually this didn't happen and he even worked with the city officials from time to time, but he still faced other problems that occurred due to him being black that Superman supposedly didn't. Thus it was important that the story show how a super hero faces racism as opposed to a civilian. Not to say that the character didn't run into issues even when he wasn't dressed up as Icon. Also half the time, he would try to explain some occurrences away as being something other than what it was. It was Rocket, more often than not, who would see what happens to him and speak out about the discrimination he alone or they together faced.

As far as Augustus being an "alien in the guise of a middle-aged black millionaire", that was part of how he had the value system he had as opposed to Rocket. He was an alien so the character had a unique perspective to be unbiased in certain situations. Yet he had lived as a black man so he was able to understand the African American experience first hand.  Rocket was the young, impulsive kid from the 'hood element for the story who really was the main focus of the book. It was Rocket who created Icon after all. It was a kinda of coming of age story actually.

mile stone had intended Icon to present real social issues from the African American perspective along with action. in fact all of their titles did this to a degree. That was what Milestone was using to differentiate themselves from DC and Marvel. Not saying the big Two didn't bring up social issues because they did. However, Milestone just brought those issues to light from a different perspective than the other companies. Teen pregnancy of a super hero character, racism toward individuals (not discrimination of mutants). gang violence and how it affects families and futures are some of the things Milestone wanted to express. Action was just part of the mix.If all you want is straight action then none of the Milestone comics might have been your taste. Yuo definitely should have stuck with DC or Marvel titles. Btu take note that you had your fires and earthquakes (Worlds Collide arc), chemical or magical elements that turned people into super beings, love interests (he was dating the mayor for a brief time and Rocket had a "baby daddy") and he had to deal with things regular black people face just as Augustus Freeman IV. the only thing he really need was some more super villians except Holocaust and Surge. Btu then the series only went 42 issues. IF the had been time we all could have seen some more development of the character and stories I would think. unfortunately Milestone didn't get he chance as the series ended and their was no real wrap up. It just sorta stopped in mid story. The positive thing is that Icon was the last title Milestone had before it went under. All the other titles had been canceled . Icon itself actually won a number of awards.

As for the thing about who is more likely to face racism,  Oprah or some other black person who is not rich? The truth is BOTH. In fact I am surprised you use Oprah as an example as she has experience racism,even after she became famous and she has talked about those experiences. Does she run into as many as a black person on the street? Probably not, but she still has run into them ans so have alot of other wealthy blacks. That's that scenario were a black person who has "made it" thinks now that there rich, very one who deals with them sees green. Well just ask Michael Jackson, OJ, Clarence Thomas (though he probably deserved it like OJ  :) ) and a certain president of a major entertainment company who writes comics what they think about that.

I read this post,and many superlatives came to mind...but I'll stick to my first thought:

"DAAAMNNN. WHO IS THIS KID?"

I'm doubly glad you're here,bruh.Sicc post.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 19, 2007, 12:50:22 am
Yeah, I don't think fans had a problem with the whole trial and fight in space either. What drew fan complaints, according to the guys at Milestone, was that after that particular arc, Augustus Freeman IV was not going to return to Earth and was going to leave the title altogether. the writers then changed their mind which all in all I think was a good idea. However, I understand what they were trying to do in the that "Icon" was not suppose to be anyone person permanently. It is an ideal or symbol to live up to. I would guess that Rocket would eventually have become Icon as the series progressed if the writers had continued with their original plan..
OK. I thought it was all part of the plan. In fact, McDuffie said that one of his future ideas was for Icon to use his pod to turn himself into a woman (not sure why, but maybe sohe could fake his death like he had so many times before, which was why he was Augustus Freeman IV), so I always thought Augustus was in for the long run. But yeah, Raquel probably would have become Icon eventually.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 19, 2007, 01:01:48 am
Evasive, I just want to co-sign what SI said, you're clearly an extremely erudite Milestone fan, and it's great to have your input here.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 19, 2007, 02:32:35 am
Evasive, I just want to co-sign what SI said, you're clearly an extremely erudite Milestone fan, and it's great to have your input here.

I didn't really realize how much I had picked up from reading that series until I started explaining it.  :)
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Francisco on January 19, 2007, 04:14:49 am
Did you ever read Icon, Cisco?  I remember it being a lot of fun.  The political stuff is there but not in the foreground.  I really like the origin story and him being older and wiser.  Just curious whether you were reacting to the description here or the book itself.  It's cool either way.


I've just read the first issue when they explain the guy's origin and was relaying on the despcriptions you guys made here but now after reading Evasive's post I realize I was talking off my butt. ;D lol

But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.

Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Wise Son on January 19, 2007, 04:21:30 am
But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.
To paraphrase Icon, he's been a black man for longer than anyone else on the planet. ;)

I get what your saying, but the book works because Icon represents the history of African Americans, from slavery to the Harlem Renaissance to standing at MLK's side and on, while Rocket represents the reality of inner-city African-Americans in modern times.

Heh, Icon's real name was Arnus, and he looked like 'Kermit the frog with a better profile'.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on January 19, 2007, 06:47:20 am
But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.
You know, I always thought that the notion of a planet full of alien white people was ridiculous.  The solution McDuffie and crew came up with seems really smart to me.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: Vic Vega on January 19, 2007, 06:53:58 am
But I'm still thinking that they should have made him a real black guy/alien. Superman is white as most of the Kriptonians we've seen then why can Icon be a black alien from a mostly black planet? I guess that if I was a comic writer and would have made Icon that way.
To paraphrase Icon, he's been a black man for longer than anyone else on the planet. ;)

I get what your saying, but the book works because Icon represents the history of African Americans, from slavery to the Harlem Renaissance to standing at MLK's side and on, while Rocket represents the reality of inner-city African-Americans in modern times.

Heh, Icon's real name was Arnus, and he looked like 'Kermit the frog with a better profile'.

The point to the character was that he had experienced slavery, Jim Crow and the Harlem Renaissance FIRSTHAND. Moreover, by the time Icon finally got back to his home planet a century later, his people has effectively cloned a replacement of him, rendering his return moot. During the time he was off-planet with Rocket he was replaced by Buck Wilde, Mercenary Man (Perhaps the funniest Luke Cage parody ever).

In retrospect, Icon was probably on of the better books published by Milestone. Milestone main failing (thru no fault of its own) was that it came out during the same time Image and Valiant did.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: D- Ruck on January 21, 2007, 07:08:13 am
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.

Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier? And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...

I dunno where it leaves them, maybe I'll have an idea when they raise their statues, lol.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: sinjection on January 21, 2007, 07:22:56 am
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.


Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier? And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...


I dunno where it leaves them, maybe I'll have an idea when they raise their statues, lol.


I hope that when they do raise a statue to "Smokin'" Joe Frazier, it will be a statue worthy of a Champion and not like that thing of Rocky Balboa some in Philadelphia call a statue. A member of Philadelphia's Art Commission didn't want that hunk of misshappen bronze anywhere near the art museum. He said, that's not a statue, "it's a prop". Which is exactly what it is  ;)

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2006/09/06/rocky-statue.html
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: D- Ruck on January 21, 2007, 07:52:09 am
Yeah, leave Rocky alone, he's the greatest sports hero in Philadelphia history, at least give them that.


Oh really? Well, where does that leave their REAL heavyweight boxing champion, "Smokin'" Joe Frazier? And what about Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker?

Uh oh...my post total adds up to the number 8. Time to hibernate, with my "Hero Member" self  :D

Will return in a few...


I dunno where it leaves them, maybe I'll have an idea when they raise their statues, lol.


I hope that when they do raise a statue to "Smokin'" Joe Frazier, it will be a statue worthy of a Champion and not like that thing of Rocky Balboa some in Philadelphia call a statue. A member of Philadelphia's Art Commission didn't want that hunk of misshappen bronze anywhere near the art museum. He said, that's not a statue, "it's a prop". Which is exactly what it is  ;)

[url]http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2006/09/06/rocky-statue.html[/url]


Yep, I agree with you totally, but as a Cowboy fan, the way Philadelphia has taken to that movie has been a cornerstone of my scorn for a long time.  It's all good though, great series of movie.
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: GrimSkill on January 22, 2007, 02:15:08 pm
yea,good movies  ;D
Title: Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
Post by: D- Ruck on January 22, 2007, 02:39:51 pm
yea,good movies  ;D

Either sarcasm, or did we just agree on something?