Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Kimoyo on February 02, 2015, 07:56:47 am

Title: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 02, 2015, 07:56:47 am
Jonathan Hickman has accomplished what neither Klaw, nor Doom, nor PF Namor, nor any foreign power could......the complete destruction of Wakanda and The Black Panther. 

SPOILERS....




The image of T'Challa with Reed overlooking the graveyard that is Wakanda in NA #29 caused me to reflect on what it means for him to be "King of the Dead" and how we arrived at this point.  In effect, Hickman has unencumbered T'Challa of Wakanda allowing him to viscerally carry them all with him wherever he goes.  Consider with no Vibranium (a legacy from DoomWar) and now no Wakanda there is nothing to tie him to his ancestral region.

Hickman, the writer I had hopes for, gave T'Challa, via Bast, the option of regaining the Wakandan throne or playing a direct role in the salvation of his people as the KOTD.  T'Challa was promised there would be suffering and pain, but opportunity for survival.  Sure enough Wakanda suffers unprecedented loss at the hands of Namor but now has been decimated by Hickman's Cabal leaving
T'Challa ironically as King of nothing but the dead.  Given the scope of Hickman's foresight (planning) didn't this have to be the plan all along. 

Our own S.I. pointed out the media criticism of Reg's Wakanda, it's "heavy-handed" world view critical of the West, the U.S. particularly, as children beneath the technologically and ideologically advanced Wakanda.  Can it be coincidence that it's Wakanda that has now been brought low by Hickman's mighty pen? 

Retrospectively there have been many clues.  From the start of NA T'Challa loses the best and brightest of Wakanda's youth, it's future.  Subsequently, Queen Shuri, the prevailing Black Panther and what was left of her guard, Wakanda's warrior cult have been annihilated.  What is left is only that which the King of the Dead can commune with spiritually!  Culturally, without a Wakanda can there even be a Black Panther?  T'Challa while perhaps enhanced is effectively adrift, cut loose from Wakanda which some had theorized, held the character back as a mainstream participant in the MU.  Is it possible that all along, in perhaps the slickest bait and switch in comic book history, T'Challa was being repositioned more so than slowly rebuilt?

Wakanda is gone, T'Challa remains -- King of the Dead.  Long live the King, but all hail Mighty Hickman, the man who destroyed Wakanda and the Black Panther!

My two cents.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on February 02, 2015, 08:08:21 am
I get why this is a big thing,

But Hickman also destroyed Atlantis, Attilan and turned Namor and Strange into arguable villains, so it's not like he solo'd out T'Challa/Wakanda. It was pretty much mess with everyone without a title.


Actually, that's not true.  He solo'd out T'Challa in one way: T'Challa was outright told, "hey, your job is to be Wakanda's salvation after the thing worse than AvX happens". And as shown numerous times before, Hickman doesn't forget his foreshadowing.

But alas, yeah, this is the first time Wakanda has truly lost. I'd rather it be a bunch of cosmic level tyrants than Doom.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Moose100 on February 02, 2015, 12:32:55 pm
Jonathan Hickman has accomplished what neither Klaw, nor Doom, nor PF Namor, nor any foreign power could......the complete destruction of Wakanda and The Black Panther. 

SPOILERS....




The image of T'Challa with Reed overlooking the graveyard that is Wakanda in NA #29 caused me to reflect on what it means for him to be "King of the Dead" and how we arrived at this point.  In effect, Hickman has unencumbered T'Challa of Wakanda allowing him to viscerally carry them all with him wherever he goes.  Consider with no Vibranium (a legacy from DoomWar) and now no Wakanda there is nothing to tie him to his ancestral region.

Hickman, the writer I had hopes for, gave T'Challa, via Bast, the option of regaining the Wakandan throne or playing a direct role in the salvation of his people as the KOTD.  T'Challa was promised there would be suffering and pain, but opportunity for survival.  Sure enough Wakanda suffers unprecedented loss at the hands of Namor but now has been decimated by Hickman's Cabal leaving
T'Challa ironically as King of nothing but the dead.  Given the scope of Hickman's foresight (planning) didn't this have to be the plan all along. 

Our own S.I. pointed out the media criticism of Reg's Wakanda, it's "heavy-handed" world view critical of the West, the U.S. particularly, as children beneath the technologically and ideologically advanced Wakanda.  Can it be coincidence that it's Wakanda that has now been brought low by Hickman's mighty pen? 

Retrospectively there have been many clues.  From the start of NA T'Challa loses the best and brightest of Wakanda's youth, it's future.  Subsequently, Queen Shuri, the prevailing Black Panther and what was left of her guard, Wakanda's warrior cult have been annihilated.  What is left is only that which the King of the Dead can commune with spiritually!  Culturally, without a Wakanda can there even be a Black Panther?  T'Challa while perhaps enhanced is effectively adrift, cut loose from Wakanda which some had theorized, held the character back as a mainstream participant in the MU.  Is it possible that all along, in perhaps the slickest bait and switch in comic book history, T'Challa was being repositioned more so than slowly rebuilt?

Wakanda is gone, T'Challa remains -- King of the Dead.  Long live the King, but all hail Mighty Hickman, the man who destroyed Wakanda and the Black Panther!

My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

It's like he went beyond with how he destroyed it. Are there any Wakandan's left to rebuild in the first place?

T'challa has been stripped of everything.

Even the characterization in the last 18 months has him taking on this backdoor "me too" sidekick role to Reed. If he's not doing that he's watching his kingdom die.

I get that there may be hope in the final act that is is Secret Wars, that maybe he will get some retribution but the stuff leading up to this point isn't really a good look. Nor does it seem logically reversible.

Namor got everything he wanted to his satisfaction but Hickman's writing yet again shows various layers of emasculation of comic's most independent Black male character. So yeah I do have a problem up to this point.

I had faith and to some degree still do but when you look at the logic of his story how can I when it's been decimated so badly in overt and subliminal ways?

I get that Namor lost everything but as I said earlier he got want he wanted and he even said so to an extent. Tchalla is denied ANY type of satisfaction in any way.

He "killed" Namor but arguably he needed help for some reason and then when he "did" he pops up on the cover of Secret Wars #1.

Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 02, 2015, 12:55:36 pm
I get why this is a big thing,


Do you?

But Hickman also destroyed Atlantis, Attilan and turned Namor and Strange into arguable villains, so it's not like he solo'd out T'Challa/Wakanda. It was pretty much mess with everyone without a title.


Rubbish.

As T'Challa had nothing to do with the original Illuminati i the first place and actually argued against their existence, there was ZERO reason for him to have been included in Hickman's incredibly depressing saga.

I don't give a flying phuck about Atlantis or Atillan but it's worth noting that at least in the case of the Inhumans fallen city, the subsequent release of massive quantities of Terrigen Mists has led to an ongoing population explosion of Inhumans which actually creates the possibility of expanding the Inhumans mythos.

Juxtapose that against the backdrop of a totally annihilated Wakanda, slaughter of $huri, an original character created by Reginald Hudlin ad the complete dumbification of T'Challa in this whole ordid me and tell me again how Hickman ha crafted anything other than an extention on the erasure of the BP mythos started by Jonathan Maberry.


Actually, that's not true.  He solo'd out T'Challa in one way: T'Challa was outright told, "hey, your job is to be Wakanda's salvation after the thing worse than AvX happens". And as shown numerous times before, Hickman doesn't forget his foreshadowing.


And the above means what exactly?

Hickman and co always intended for Wakanda to be destroyed but it's funny how characters like Reed Richards remain virtually unscathed even as Hickman writes Richards and Doom utilizing levels of intelligence and tactical awareness normally associated with T'Challa even as the King of the Deadbeats is portrayed as the shortsighted fool who brought death and destruction into Wakanda by way of his own lies, deceit and arrogance.

But alas, yeah, this is the first time Wakanda has truly lost. I'd rather it be a bunch of cosmic level tyrants than Doom.


Wakanda truly "lost" the minute so-called BP fans chose to stay settling for scraps from Marvels table in the hope of seeing T'Challa rise to greatness forgetting that CJP, Reginald Hudlin and Dwayne McDuffy had already done this long before the likes of Maberry and Hickman came on the scene with their decimation agenda.

Fans of the milquetoast T'Challa should pat themselves on the back.

You've finally gotten the Black Panther that you truly deserve.

(http://i57.tinypic.com/28inx2q.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/5z1nd4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 02, 2015, 01:41:35 pm
CJP, Hudln, McDuffie -- "once you go black...!" 

'Wakanda annihilated, Suri slaughtered..."

Good points Sal, it does seem like their was an agenda to unravel what was done, Reg's work specifically! 

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Emperorjones on February 02, 2015, 02:51:43 pm
You guys are really bringing up some good points and breaking it down. I had hopes for Hickman as well going into this. I think it was his depiction of T'Challa in one of the Fantastic Four books and at the start of this King of the Dead thing that I thought was intriguing. But I've been reading on, and more off, his Avengers/New Avengers run and outside of the artwork haven't been much impressed. I enjoyed Infinity, but I can't remember if T'Challa had a big role in that or not. But I like how you guys are laying out the destruction to T'Challa's legacy that has been wreaked. I can't say it's Hickman's legacy alone. I think it started with Maberry, who ironically I also supported during his "Power" arc, but came to dislike "DoomWar".

I wonder if the agenda is to remove him from all of the 'unpopular' stuff like Wakanda, to remove him from Africa, and let's be real, his blackness. To make him more 'relatable' to the mainstream. A bigger version of what Liss did. But with Liss he maintained connections to Wakanda and brought it full circle, to some extent, by the end of his run.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 02, 2015, 02:57:55 pm
CJP, Hudln, McDuffie -- "once you go black...!" 

'Wakanda annihilated, Suri slaughtered..."

Good points Sal, it does seem like their was an agenda to unravel what was done, Reg's work specifically! 

Peace,

Mont


My dear brotha Kimoyo, there's no doubt in my mind that all that has befallen the BP Mythos following the departure of Reginald Hudlin on BP scripting duties has been very deliberate from Jonathan Maberry's removal of Vibranium from Wakanda straight through to Hickman's wholesale destruction of Wakanda during AvX to the follow through genocidal slaughter of Wakandan men, women and children even as black men, women and children have been routinely killed of by the powers-that-be in the real world.

#blacklivesdon'tmattertohickman

Post Mr Hudlin, David Liss was the only writer who gave T'Challa his props and we can all see how his BP run was abruptly cancelled just as he was refocusing T'Challa back to Wakandan issues during the Kingpin of Wakanda storyline.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/n554r6.jpg)

And yet even as Hickman tramples all over the BP mythos in favour of pushing his nihilistic tale through the New Avengers, there are still so-called BP fans making excueses and caping for him both here and over there yonder on CBR birthplace of the selective banhammer protocols.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 02, 2015, 03:41:36 pm
You are the Hammer brother!  I ain't mad at you either.  That sumptuous scan is a satisfying reminder of a simpler time.  I had hope for T'Challa and Wakanda then.  I can't help but wonder if I was deluded even then?

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: JRCarter on February 02, 2015, 03:42:39 pm
At this point, our only hope may be whoever is writing the screenplay for the Black Panther movie and even then, odds seem pretty slim.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Moose100 on February 02, 2015, 03:44:26 pm
You guys are really bringing up some good points and breaking it down. I had hopes for Hickman as well going into this. I think it was his depiction of T'Challa in one of the Fantastic Four books and at the start of this King of the Dead thing that I thought was intriguing. But I've been reading on, and more off, his Avengers/New Avengers run and outside of the artwork haven't been much impressed. I enjoyed Infinity, but I can't remember if T'Challa had a big role in that or not. But I like how you guys are laying out the destruction to T'Challa's legacy that has been wreaked. I can't say it's Hickman's legacy alone. I think it started with Maberry, who ironically I also supported during his "Power" arc, but came to dislike "DoomWar".

I wonder if the agenda is to remove him from all of the 'unpopular' stuff like Wakanda, to remove him from Africa, and let's be real, his blackness. To make him more 'relatable' to the mainstream. A bigger version of what Liss did. But with Liss he maintained connections to Wakanda and brought it full circle, to some extent, by the end of his run.

It seems to me that they are. Yet Feige said that Wakanda is in the movie. A character if you will.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 02, 2015, 04:01:38 pm
You are the Hammer brother!  I ain't mad at you either.  That sumptuous scan is a satisfying reminder of a simpler time.  I had hope for T'Challa and Wakanda then.  I can't help but wonder if I was deluded even then?

Peace,

Mont


You definitely weren't deluded my brother.

However, the people who commissioned ad appreciated these.......

(http://i41.tinypic.com/1zdu8wk.jpg)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/esrggo.jpg)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/282o7n.jpg)

were/are certifiably insane.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 02, 2015, 04:44:32 pm
You guys are really bringing up some good points and breaking it down. I had hopes for Hickman as well going into this. I think it was his depiction of T'Challa in one of the Fantastic Four books and at the start of this King of the Dead thing that I thought was intriguing. But I've been reading on, and more off, his Avengers/New Avengers run and outside of the artwork haven't been much impressed. I enjoyed Infinity, but I can't remember if T'Challa had a big role in that or not. But I like how you guys are laying out the destruction to T'Challa's legacy that has been wreaked. I can't say it's Hickman's legacy alone. I think it started with Maberry, who ironically I also supported during his "Power" arc, but came to dislike "DoomWar".

I wonder if the agenda is to remove him from all of the 'unpopular' stuff like Wakanda, to remove him from Africa, and let's be real, his blackness. To make him more 'relatable' to the mainstream. A bigger version of what Liss did. But with Liss he maintained connections to Wakanda and brought it full circle, to some extent, by the end of his run.

It seems to me that they are. Yet Feige said that Wakanda is in the movie. A character if you will.

The books are well ahead of the MCU, and I think that is a good thing.  We could get a very entertaining Civil War and BP movie with Wakanda, Dora Milaje, Shuri, et al?  However, it is clear Marvel has authorized Hickman to reposition T'Challa.  He is a man without a country.  Wakanda is with him in spirit only and everything Reg has done, the marriage, Uncle Syan, Shuri...are gone! 

The difference with Liss is that he was handed down a self-exiled T'Challa in the previous attempt or dry run to reposition T'Challa as a street-level addition to the NY super community.  But as Emperor said, he still was able to be in contact with Wakanda.  His home was still there and it made sense that he would one day return.  Hickman has "fixed" that making Wakanda portable, accessible in a way that frees T'Challa of his ancestral responsibility.

Yes, that I believe was part of the agenda as it appears is defining T'Challa in a way that distances him from Reg's independent, ideologically advanced Panther who ruffled the feathers of critics and fanboys who hold more sway than HEF-fers like you and me.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on February 02, 2015, 07:27:56 pm
Battleworld:
http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/139/358/original/Battleworld_Map_Hi-Res.jpg (http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/139/358/original/Battleworld_Map_Hi-Res.jpg)

There are three classified zone, and three major places missing.  No Wakanda, no Latveria, no Atlantis.  Now, Hickman destroyed two of them, but that doesn't preclude them showing up here.  Hmmm, one of them could be Ultimate Wakanda.  Could they have destroyed mainstream Wakanda because they plan to use Ultimate Wakanda in the Post SW world?

hmm, just realized a fourth major site missing:  The Savage Land.

Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 02, 2015, 10:34:13 pm
Battleworld:
[url]http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/139/358/original/Battleworld_Map_Hi-Res.jpg[/url] ([url]http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/139/358/original/Battleworld_Map_Hi-Res.jpg[/url])

There are three classified zone, and three major places missing.  No Wakanda, no Latveria, no Atlantis.  Now, Hickman destroyed two of them, but that doesn't preclude them showing up here.  Hmmm, one of them could be Ultimate Wakanda.  Could they have destroyed mainstream Wakanda because they plan to use Ultimate Wakanda in the Post SW world?

hmm, just realized a fourth major site missing:  The Savage Land.



Brevoort said that this map ain't nowhere near complete...
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 05, 2015, 06:45:06 pm
Wow!

More fail on the part of T'Challa.

Who would have thought it.

(http://i57.tinypic.com/hrkl0j.jpg)

(http://i60.tinypic.com/15rmo3o.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/24qqoo1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 05, 2015, 08:13:01 pm
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 05, 2015, 08:22:03 pm
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 05, 2015, 08:45:54 pm
The truest thing Wakandan he's written is the shame and embarrassment exhibited by Shuri and their ancestors.  T'Challa's actions more than justify Wakanda's historical xenophobic and isolationist stance.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 05, 2015, 10:16:33 pm
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Moose100 on February 05, 2015, 11:39:50 pm
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 06, 2015, 12:56:37 am
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 06, 2015, 11:10:23 am
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.

What I don't understand my dear brother S.I. is your willingness to accept the product we are getting right now!?!  Diminished returns for the promise of a brighter future has never truly worked out well for the aspirations of minorities in the history of the world!  Yet, you seem to have bought in to whatever carrot you've been given despite the great imagination you have displayed on countless occasions? 

You cast shade on the I.Q. of the vocal minority yet when Moose adroitly summed up the anti Hickman-Panther argument in a concise few sentences you (appropriately) laud him!?! My I.Q. is just a tad above pedestrian so it may come as no surprise that I just don't get you on this?  Howewver, there are some obviously heady dudes here who agree with me.

I'm sure there are others who agree with you.  Nonetheless, this need not descend into some HEF-Wakandan civil war.  For my part, I don't like what Hickman has done to T'Challa, Wakanda, Namor, Strange, Stark......  I don't like the never ending, fan abusive incursion plot, I thought "Infinity" was a little better even though I didn't like the off-panel action or how T'Challa was being portrayed even then.  I especially don't like being strung along with the promise of a competent, relevant T'Challa only to see him and Wakanda lashed to a withered portrayal intended to appease a majority.

That however, is between me, those who think like me and Hickman/Marvel.  We should keep it that way.  I like and respect my dear brother S.I. who I have a lot in common with, none the least of which is an abiding affinity for T'Challa and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Blanks on February 06, 2015, 12:51:05 pm
Post Secret War, we don't know which Panther we're getting. Since there are so many different realities being merged on Battleworld, whose to say that the Panther that will be present going forward will be the deconstructed Panther we've been getting?

Since they are picking different eras as well for Battle World, The Panther we get may be pre Doomwar Panther, maybe even pre-Reggie Panther. Hell, for all we know, we could get Happy-Pants Panther back. All of these stories go back to the Age of Ultron and Wolverine breaking time. Marvel more than likely is going to take this opportunity to pick and choose the "Iconic" versions of characters to use from a certain point in their time and popularity.

Example, you didn't like the"Brand New Day" era of Spider-Man? No problem! From here on out, The Spidy we're using is plucked from the Civil War.

That said, Marvel could have given Hickman to do 'what thou will'. We may not like it, but if that is what Hickan is doing, so be it. Panther and Namor may both die after this event. It wouldn't surprise me at this point. If they do, then perhaps the Panther and cast chosen would be from an era in Panther history where it is still strong.

We can count out a married Panther/Storm union, so if the Time displaced Panther we get is from before the Marriage, I think we'd be in a place where the Panther status quo would be acceptable. All of the awesome and none of the deconstruction.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 06, 2015, 08:01:17 pm
So T'Challa's arrogance and personal agenda actually allowed Namor and the Cabal the time to thwart Reed's plan!?!

IMO, this would be a new low, trumping even the lowest of T'Challa lows.  This would literally make him the weakest link among the Illuminati.  Not even in DoomWar was T'Challa through hubris or whatever, the direct cause of a plans abject failure.  It's one thing for him to have double crossed his partners, but in doing so to cause the failure of a major objective...smdh?  He has been reduced to a joke.  A joke that, should the Cabal find their way back, the Avengers, New and all would be hard-pressed to survive.  Wow!?!

Peace,

Mont

I'm sure some will still find a way to cape for Hickman regardless. :smh:


Remember this when TChalla is stomping heads.

I'm actually quite surprised that...given the massive IQ of the people here...heads can't see beyond the big ostentatious stuff right in front of our faces.

The thing is he could be doing that LATER but NOW his showing is pretty bad. There's a difference in building up to this point that we want to see and giving him something better. later doesn't stop me from pointing out what's going on now. I like the story overall bit this is a problem.

Good points. Can't argue that.

What I don't understand my dear brother S.I. is your willingness to accept the product we are getting right now!?!  Diminished returns for the promise of a brighter future has never truly worked out well for the aspirations of minorities in the history of the world!  Yet, you seem to have bought in to whatever carrot you've been given despite the great imagination you have displayed on countless occasions? 

I see what is happening right now with BP as a very clear writing technique. It's a combination of ideas and methods that very good writers use, combined with tricks feints and dodges ON THE READER. Remember when we were sold NA as a whodunnit? I think it's more of a horror psych-suspense, character study, mystery mashup with a bit of action romance and stuff mixed in.

If I thought that Hickman would deconstruct TChalla and leave him in Suckaville? I'd throw him over right now. If I thought that Hickman would permanently reduce the quality of the franchise that is TChalla, instead of essentially give him a restart [ like the rest of the MU is getting ] that simultaneously aligns him as the badass we see in the movies [ his badassery is already guaranteed in the movies ]? I'd throw him over before Time could start. But. Hickman is doing some amazing things, and I have seen...not his end game...but the building blocks from the parts I care most about.

The "TChalla shall be a universally acknowledged true badass intro'd into the core of the MU from this point forward" part.

I know that much of TChalla's continuity will be jettisoned. I won't love that. But the overall reformation of TChalla will make him central to Marvel and give him a new platform from which writers like the present and future CJPs, RH's, McDuffies, Greviouxs, etc can truly weave a compelling, hardcore Black Panther and NOT catch static for it. That's what's best for BP. Whatever route takes us there? I'm down with it. I absolutely don't love every twist and turn. But. I keep my Eyes On The Prize. Crossing that finish line for BP? Will change the outlook for GENERATIONS of kids of color.

I've seen this kind of thing before...but I've never seen all of these elements combined and spun with such intricate gargantuan imagination scope and attention to detail in any picture book anywhere before.
[/b]

You cast shade on the I.Q. of the vocal minority yet when Moose adroitly summed up the anti Hickman-Panther argument in a concise few sentences you (appropriately) laud him!?! My I.Q. is just a tad above pedestrian so it may come as no surprise that I just don't get you on this?  Howewver, there are some obviously heady dudes here who agree with me.

I would never cast shade on the collective I.Q. of the vocal minority here. I respect yall too much even when I disagree. I also said...many times...that I don't have a problem with anyone who puts the book down for their own reasons. And like I said? There are significant areas that I differ with Hickman on. But see...I'm not caping for Hickman. I'm caping for TChalla. Biiig difference. And TChalla being reintro'd MU wide as a genuine badass, part of the Avengers, and pushed strongly for the next 5 years i nblockbuster movies with worldwide appeal and impact=good for TChalla. And TChalla the comic product will get the same thing. That=good for TChalla. Therefore anyone who scripts the path for him arriving there, and even starting the path to get there? That person=good for TChalla.

I'm sure there are others who agree with you.  Nonetheless, this need not descend into some HEF-Wakandan civil war.  For my part, I don't like what Hickman has done to T'Challa, Wakanda, Namor, Strange, Stark......  I don't like the never ending, fan abusive incursion plot, I thought "Infinity" was a little better even though I didn't like the off-panel action or how T'Challa was being portrayed even then.  I especially don't like being strung along with the promise of a competent, relevant T'Challa only to see him and Wakanda lashed to a withered portrayal intended to appease a majority.

I understand that. I'm not mad at all . Good arguments. But. The story isn't done yet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you have concluded that the story of Hickman's has already reaches beyond your willingness to invest in it. Perfectly cool with me. I understand that. But. There is a significant danger of judging the whole story by the snippet that we've read thus far. We have at least one more year...if not two...of these kinds of stories to rock. SECRET WARS...which seems to be the set up to what probably/maybe is the all action Battleworld...are each 12 issues, right? I think I'm right about that. Didn't check though, so I could be wrong. But...if so? We're looking at 2 more years of fleshing out positioning and plots being tied up to set up for even more staggering stuff.  Sooo...stopping your ride is cool. But whatever picture that is formed now purely based on the books thus far published are literally premature

Remember when all those "fans" would absolutely lose their minds when CJP first wrote TChalla as this scheming badass? Remember how they howled like madmen about TChalla's tech. Remember how they cried foul and Mary Stu and whatever else when TChalla ripped Medusa's heart out? And then...CJP would snap shut the mouse traps. And everybody would go:oooohhhhhh I get it nooowwww.

That's what's happening now.

This story MUST carry across years. Real time. Because it takes time to have the movies come out and align the comics with them. And vice versa.This time will be to TChalla's advantage because he will be regularly exposed to a much larger fanbase and he will be built up more and more as his movie debut comes on us. No, he won't be the main foucs. He shouldn't be. No it won't be the way we prefer it. In a PERFECT WORLD it SHOULD be CLOSER to how we like it, but it WON'T be. So let's not sweat that. Be disappointed. Bail on Hickman if you want to. Diss all you like. But sooner later...prolly much later, if you throw over the book and don't check in on BP after the movie drops...everyone will realize that TChalla will be better for it. And I'm right. This prediction right here? Not even hard. They already told us this is happening like that. 


That however, is between me, those who think like me and Hickman/Marvel.  We should keep it that way.  I like and respect my dear brother S.I. who I have a lot in common with, none the least of which is an abiding affinity for T'Challa and Wakanda.


I like you too and have the greatest respect for you, brother Mont. The same holds true for ALL the HEFfas. Overall, we agree way more on the crucial elements than we disagree on the minor stuff. I always strive to keep this in mind during our discussions.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Happy Pants on February 06, 2015, 08:51:24 pm
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 06, 2015, 11:47:42 pm
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on February 07, 2015, 05:31:03 am
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Since Hickman is not going to around after Secret Wars, whatever he does to BP; good or ill, is just a vapor.  Unless he has been given direction by the next writer of BP and he is writing BP to fit the new writer's plan, then really, nothing he does is going to stick. (Unless, the next writer likes it.)
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 07, 2015, 05:47:35 am
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Dude, I know I said I no longer had a desire to engage with you on this subject but....Damn!

The level of caping you've done for Hickman so far has now reached Rutog98 levels of delusion.

As Happy Pants and many other posters have pointed out, Hickman has written T'Challa as an obtuse traitor to the Wakandan aesthetic that kept that nation inviolate from external enemies for millenia and as te NA saga unfolds and Wakanda lays in smouldering ruins with the loss of millions of Wakandan lives and the death of Shuri, the only Black Panther worth a damn, I really find your unswerving defence of Hickman's disgraceful handling of the BP mythos in really bad taste.

Hickman has done more damage to the BP mythos than Jonathan Maberry who also claimed to be a "fan" of the character before he proceeded to rob Wakanda of Vibranium chump out T'Challa and Ororo and have Bast betray T'Challa and Wakanda by endorsing Doom's plundering of Wakanda and utter humiliation of T'Challa and Co.

There is nothing in Hickman's treatment of T'Challa that indicates an understanding of te character or his world let alone that he even has an real appreciation for the superior character work put in by actual giants such as Reginald Hudlin, CJP, McDuffie and David Liss who actually got T'Challa's characteristics down pat.

Hickman has turned T'Challa into an inneffectual joke character tat no reader in their right mind could ever take seriously but the only person in the proverbial room that doesn't seem to have gotten this memo is you. :smh:
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 07, 2015, 05:58:20 am
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Since Hickman is not going to around after Secret Wars, whatever he does to BP; good or ill, is just a vapor.  Unless he has been given direction by the next writer of BP and he is writing BP to fit the new writer's plan, then really, nothing he does is going to stick. (Unless, the next writer likes it.)

Have an of the negative things that other writers have done with T'Challa not stuck to the character like a bad smell?

Why will any of the additional deconstruction tat Hickman has heaped on T'Challa not stick?
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on February 07, 2015, 06:18:17 am
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 07, 2015, 06:49:48 am
Ok.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Happy Pants on February 07, 2015, 01:10:26 pm
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Keep hope alive.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Happy Pants on February 07, 2015, 01:14:40 pm
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Well.....if 616 BP turns mute......he could no longer make empty threats.....and run his mouth instead of pulling the kill switch on his death traps.

Sorry....I just had to go there.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 07, 2015, 04:18:15 pm
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Well.....if 616 BP turns mute......he could no longer make empty threats.....and run his mouth instead of pulling the kill switch on his death traps.

Sorry....I just had to go there.

No need to apologize for telling the truth.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 13, 2015, 10:35:31 am
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Well.....if 616 BP turns mute......he could no longer make empty threats.....and run his mouth instead of pulling the kill switch on his death traps.

Sorry....I just had to go there.

No need to apologize for telling the truth.

Indeed!  Your frustration with this wretched characterization is rightfully shared and more than understood!

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 13, 2015, 05:49:02 pm
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Well.....if 616 BP turns mute......he could no longer make empty threats.....and run his mouth instead of pulling the kill switch on his death traps.

Sorry....I just had to go there.

No need to apologize for telling the truth.

Indeed!  Your frustration with this wretched characterization is rightfully shared and more than understood!

Peace,

Mont


The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 13, 2015, 09:17:12 pm
Actually I was referring to the outcome that SI is expecting.   He feels Hickman is going to bring BP  to a superior state.   My point is,  unless the next writer is directing this outcome,  the next BP writer could  ignore that and do worse and turn him into Ultimate BP who is mute.
Well.....if 616 BP turns mute......he could no longer make empty threats.....and run his mouth instead of pulling the kill switch on his death traps.

Sorry....I just had to go there.


No need to apologize for telling the truth.


Indeed!  Your frustration with this wretched characterization is rightfully shared and more than understood!

Peace,

Mont



The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


(http://i60.tinypic.com/2yjraeq.jpg)
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Kimoyo on February 13, 2015, 10:21:25 pm
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

(http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362)

to:

(http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png)

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

(http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg)

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 19, 2015, 06:00:51 pm
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

([url]http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362[/url])

to:

([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg[/url])

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont



I cannot deny nor would I even attempt to deny that Hickman has put hammer to the anvil of TChalla. No doubt that there are major aspects in there that I'm not loving.

But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?

Right when Battleworld ends.

So. TChalla is definitely on the comeback trail.

And YES you are RIGHT that Hickman's run won't be forgotten. But I tell you this:

Despite the bad pills. Despite the disagreeable pic of TChalla shedding tears. Despite the destruction of Wakanda.

When Hickman is done? He will have done what nobody else has done for TChalla. He will have placed TChalla invincibly front and center as one of the baddest best smartest and still the most independent man in The Avengers, and the MU. And every writer across the MU and comicdom will respectanize the Essence That Is TChalla. And that foundation will allow the CJP's the RH's the Liss' of the future to write TChalla full bore no shame in his game flames WITHOUT backlash from the LCBRD because the LCBRD will now include a much larger, much more diverse audience who ALREADY knows AND accepts TChalla as essentially Marvel's Batman.

Summer. 2016. TChalla tears down all hatas forever in his movie debut with Cap. He'll be with THE AVENGERS too [ making 3 Black guys: Fury, Falcon and TChalla ], which will kick the flava for his own movie up even more notches. And then? A trilogy all about "the shrewdest man in the MU"--CJP.

And Hickman is setting the Marvel Universe up for that, right now.

Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on February 20, 2015, 01:40:24 pm
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

([url]http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362[/url])

to:

([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg[/url])

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont



I cannot deny nor would I even attempt to deny that Hickman has put hammer to the anvil of TChalla. No doubt that there are major aspects in there that I'm not loving.

But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?

Right when Battleworld ends.

So. TChalla is definitely on the comeback trail.

And YES you are RIGHT that Hickman's run won't be forgotten. But I tell you this:

Despite the bad pills. Despite the disagreeable pic of TChalla shedding tears. Despite the destruction of Wakanda.

When Hickman is done? He will have done what nobody else has done for TChalla. He will have placed TChalla invincibly front and center as one of the baddest best smartest and still the most independent man in The Avengers, and the MU. And every writer across the MU and comicdom will respectanize the Essence That Is TChalla. And that foundation will allow the CJP's the RH's the Liss' of the future to write TChalla full bore no shame in his game flames WITHOUT backlash from the LCBRD because the LCBRD will now include a much larger, much more diverse audience who ALREADY knows AND accepts TChalla as essentially Marvel's Batman.

Summer. 2016. TChalla tears down all hatas forever in his movie debut with Cap. He'll be with THE AVENGERS too [ making 3 Black guys: Fury, Falcon and TChalla ], which will kick the flava for his own movie up even more notches. And then? A trilogy all about "the shrewdest man in the MU"--CJP.

And Hickman is setting the Marvel Universe up for that, right now.


You do know the Black Panther flick's been pushed back to 2018?


(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404002216/irategamerdoesnotsuck/images/2/2f/Tumbleweed.gif)
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Francisco on April 09, 2015, 01:58:58 pm
Yeah because a more marketable character is available and it is the top dog A Lister at Marvel and the biggest cash cow in the stable of Disney's new acquisitions. I'm talking about Spiderman, baby!! T'Challa just can't compete at that level. T'Challa is not an A-lister and thanks to how the game is played he will never be. Well he may have a chance once his movie is released but then again as long as the writers keep jobbing him to prop other characters...
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 10, 2015, 06:24:29 pm
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

([url]http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362[/url])

to:

([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg[/url])

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont



I cannot deny nor would I even attempt to deny that Hickman has put hammer to the anvil of TChalla. No doubt that there are major aspects in there that I'm not loving.

But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?

Right when Battleworld ends.

So. TChalla is definitely on the comeback trail.

And YES you are RIGHT that Hickman's run won't be forgotten. But I tell you this:

Despite the bad pills. Despite the disagreeable pic of TChalla shedding tears. Despite the destruction of Wakanda.

When Hickman is done? He will have done what nobody else has done for TChalla. He will have placed TChalla invincibly front and center as one of the baddest best smartest and still the most independent man in The Avengers, and the MU. And every writer across the MU and comicdom will respectanize the Essence That Is TChalla. And that foundation will allow the CJP's the RH's the Liss' of the future to write TChalla full bore no shame in his game flames WITHOUT backlash from the LCBRD because the LCBRD will now include a much larger, much more diverse audience who ALREADY knows AND accepts TChalla as essentially Marvel's Batman.

Summer. 2016. TChalla tears down all hatas forever in his movie debut with Cap. He'll be with THE AVENGERS too [ making 3 Black guys: Fury, Falcon and TChalla ], which will kick the flava for his own movie up even more notches. And then? A trilogy all about "the shrewdest man in the MU"--CJP.

And Hickman is setting the Marvel Universe up for that, right now.


You do know the Black Panther flick's been pushed back to 2018?


([url]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404002216/irategamerdoesnotsuck/images/2/2f/Tumbleweed.gif[/url])



Of course I do know that TChalla's movie has been pushed back to 2018.

That's why I pointed out that Cap's movie...which introduces TChalla...drops in 2016. That would be CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR.

That's the part where I said: "But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?"

This guy right here:

(http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzEwLzI5L2Y1L01hcnZlbEJsYWNrLmNlYjUyLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn/cec6fe58/f1d/Marvel-Black-Panther-Poster-03.jpg)



is not a sucka. You don't make hundreds of millions if not billions on a sucka. You don't introduce a sucka via CAPTAIN AMERICA:CIVIL WAR. You don't drop a trilogy costing a hundred million or so in aggregate for the trilogy...on a sucka. You do that only with major bankable properties.

BP is a major bankable property.

Heads are mad at Hickman now...and a lot of them are supposed to e. It's justifiable. But. Before the end of Battleworld? TChalla will be that major hot bankable property.

RH was the only guy who all by his lonesome had both the writing and directing skills to rock that BLACK Panther, but they hated on him [ unjustifiably imo and I will think that til my dying day ] and would let him do it.

Hickman came around and he's actually gonna get it done in the MCU and set it up for Kevin Feigle [ or whatever ole dude's name is ] on the Cinema side.

Proof? Check Marvel Phase 3.

Game over.

TChalla wins.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 11, 2015, 05:55:37 am
Will Hickman's run be remembered?  I've heard this brought up a few times.

Personally, I suspect, other than us and few other, these issues leading up to Battleworld/Secret Wars will be completely forgotten.  Battleworld/Secret Wars is what is going to be remembered.  This stuff, eh, it will be mostly forgotten. 

Hickman's writing style is long and drawn out; by the time we got to the scene where BP broke down, the art work sucked.  These aren't the books I hear people talking about, outside of places like this.

I know New Avenges isn't the worse selling of books, but the last time I looked, it was one of the worse selling Avengers title.  I know some of you can find the sales numbers.  So how has this book been selling lately? Has it improved?
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 11, 2015, 12:24:20 pm
Hickman's run will most definitely be remembered, as he is the hands down most influential writer in MCU history up to this point.

His stories relaunched the entire MU. He won't be dwarfed by Secret Wars or anything else because he authored the major stuff himself.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-ends-the-avengers-new-avengers-prepares-for-battle-in-secret-wars&sa=U&ei=T2cpVYDkO4vsoATFxoGoCA&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFD3dAel5kdLrnI0xGMl3u_nmnQmw (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-ends-the-avengers-new-avengers-prepares-for-battle-in-secret-wars&sa=U&ei=T2cpVYDkO4vsoATFxoGoCA&ved=0CAQQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFD3dAel5kdLrnI0xGMl3u_nmnQmw)

Now, various aspects and arcs of his run will be overshadowed by his subsequent stuff. New Avengers will be overshadowed by Secret Wars, and Secret Wars will probably be overshadowed by Battleworld.

TChalla is front and center on Cap's side during the all new all different Civil War. This thing here...this story here...is incredible. I remember asking how our world would not have been drastically scarred changed and damaged by the proliferation of high powered villains fighting high powered heroes long ago. And how we as a mass of regular citizens would react to such powered people. This major interplay is probably going to be explored in some way or other in the new Civil War.

Or. Maybe not. Lol.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on April 12, 2015, 03:59:08 am
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

([url]http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362[/url])

to:

([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg[/url])

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont



I cannot deny nor would I even attempt to deny that Hickman has put hammer to the anvil of TChalla. No doubt that there are major aspects in there that I'm not loving.

But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?

Right when Battleworld ends.

So. TChalla is definitely on the comeback trail.

And YES you are RIGHT that Hickman's run won't be forgotten. But I tell you this:

Despite the bad pills. Despite the disagreeable pic of TChalla shedding tears. Despite the destruction of Wakanda.

When Hickman is done? He will have done what nobody else has done for TChalla. He will have placed TChalla invincibly front and center as one of the baddest best smartest and still the most independent man in The Avengers, and the MU. And every writer across the MU and comicdom will respectanize the Essence That Is TChalla. And that foundation will allow the CJP's the RH's the Liss' of the future to write TChalla full bore no shame in his game flames WITHOUT backlash from the LCBRD because the LCBRD will now include a much larger, much more diverse audience who ALREADY knows AND accepts TChalla as essentially Marvel's Batman.

Summer. 2016. TChalla tears down all hatas forever in his movie debut with Cap. He'll be with THE AVENGERS too [ making 3 Black guys: Fury, Falcon and TChalla ], which will kick the flava for his own movie up even more notches. And then? A trilogy all about "the shrewdest man in the MU"--CJP.

And Hickman is setting the Marvel Universe up for that, right now.


You do know the Black Panther flick's been pushed back to 2018?


([url]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404002216/irategamerdoesnotsuck/images/2/2f/Tumbleweed.gif[/url])



Of course I do know that TChalla's movie has been pushed back to 2018.

That's why I pointed out that Cap's movie...which introduces TChalla...drops in 2016. That would be CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR.

That's the part where I said: "But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?"

This guy right here:

([url]http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzEwLzI5L2Y1L01hcnZlbEJsYWNrLmNlYjUyLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn/cec6fe58/f1d/Marvel-Black-Panther-Poster-03.jpg[/url])



is not a sucka. You don't make hundreds of millions if not billions on a sucka. You don't introduce a sucka via CAPTAIN AMERICA:CIVIL WAR. You don't drop a trilogy costing a hundred million or so in aggregate for the trilogy...on a sucka. You do that only with major bankable properties.

BP is a major bankable property.

Heads are mad at Hickman now...and a lot of them are supposed to e. It's justifiable. But. Before the end of Battleworld? TChalla will be that major hot bankable property.

RH was the only guy who all by his lonesome had both the writing and directing skills to rock that BLACK Panther, but they hated on him [ unjustifiably imo and I will think that til my dying day ] and would let him do it.

Hickman came around and he's actually gonna get it done in the MCU and set it up for Kevin Feigle [ or whatever ole dude's name is ] on the Cinema side.

Proof? Check Marvel Phase 3.

Game over.

TChalla wins.


The sycophancy continues.

How much is Hickman paying you?

On a much more serious note.

I would never have believed that a time would come when a writer would be praised for totally watering down and destroying the Black Panther mythos to such a degree.

It's very hard to fathom but I can only assume that some weird type of Stockholm Syndrome is to blame for this.

Christopher Priest wrote a nuanced, complicated T'Challa replete with angst, knowledge of self and technological superiority without sacrificing T'Challa's inner humanity.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2lwc5g.jpg)

(http://i57.tinypic.com/105s3n4.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2guz62w.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/10crn1z.jpg)

Reginald Hudlin gave us amore swashbuckling, supremely confident and culturally aware T'Challa who served as a bastion to other Black characters within the 616 MU.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/9u3z0z.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/20ghc7c.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/wb766v.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2uze2z9.jpg)

Dwayne McDuffy represented to the max.

(http://i58.tinypic.com/dcldy.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/20ka9l2.jpg)

Hell!

Even Geoff Johns, came correct with T'Challa when he was writing the Avengers book.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/29z5y6o.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/nzgdqc.jpg)

David liss working from a very disadvantaged position, still succeeded in writing T'Challa as a boss regardless of status and he did so without diminishing either T'Challa, Shuri or Wakanda in the process...

(http://i40.tinypic.com/anyjyw.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/20porcm.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/21ej45.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/j8z88w.jpg)

David Liss also created one of the coolest supporting characters in Sofija.....

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2qaivpc.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2rm2sz8.jpg)

who turned out to be quite interesting...

(http://i43.tinypic.com/308cmxy.jpg)

All of these writers brought something special to the Black Panther mythos but for some unfathomable reason, I'm supposed to salute Hickman for reducing T'Challa to this...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/k9apfp.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/28inx2q.jpg)


Whilst giving T'Challa's attributes to Reed Richards.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/343lm43.jpg)

Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 12, 2015, 06:41:29 am
([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])



About this scene; when the series began, Hickman said that T'challa would be the moral center of the team. This is what it means to be the moral center.  BP drew the line.  And he did it in a way that shut Reed and Tony's mouth.  This argument couldn't be made by logic because logic says he should have killed billions.  Logically Namor was right, but logic is wrong.  Being the moral center is not about the brain; it's about the heart.  And that's what is going on here.  This isn't weakness; this is ultimate strength. 

Now, that's not the say I really liked how this played out.  I think he could have gotten the same results, still through the heart, in tbetter way.  However, that may not be Hickman's doing; it might be the artist.  Depending on the method Hickman uses to write books, the artist draws the scene and then the dialogue is added.  The artist might have taken it further than the script intended it to go.  Or not. 

BUT this only works depending on how the story ends.  So, I will hold my final judgments till the series ends.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Salustrade on April 12, 2015, 08:03:54 am
([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])



About this scene; when the series began, Hickman said that T'challa would be the moral center of the team. This is what it means to be the moral center.  BP drew the line.  And he did it in a way that shut Reed and Tony's mouth.  This argument couldn't be made by logic because logic says he should have killed billions.  Logically Namor was right, but logic is wrong.  Being the moral center is not about the brain; it's about the heart.  And that's what is going on here.  This isn't weakness; this is ultimate strength. 

Now, that's not the say I really liked how this played out.  I think he could have gotten the same results, still through the heart, in tbetter way.  However, that may not be Hickman's doing; it might be the artist.  Depending on the method Hickman uses to write books, the artist draws the scene and then the dialogue is added.  The artist might have taken it further than the script intended it to go.  Or not. 

BUT this only works depending on how the story ends.  So, I will hold my final judgments till the series ends.


Kip, Hickman has said a lot of things but that doesn't mean that his word is sacrosanct or even to be trusted.

Any allusions towards T'Challa as the supposedly moral centre to this particular story, fall apart when one considers the following sequence....

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vs3dpw.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2lo296t.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/4ubac1.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/w1zr08.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2zs5frt.jpg)

And to make matters worse, the "moral" T'Challa's pausing to gloat rather than act in a tactically expedient manner led to this....

(http://i57.tinypic.com/hrkl0j.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/15rmo3o.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/24qqoo1.jpg)

All of which merely amounts to T'Challa being nothing more than a chumped out character bereft of any of the attributes that were always part of his character before the likes of Maberry and Hickman arrived on the scene.

I don't need to get to the end of the "Everything Dies" saga to see how things play out for T'Challa because Hickman has done such an adept job of rubbishing the character to such a degree so far that in the end, he might as well have just killed T'Challa off as a character alongside the Black Panther mythos as a concept in much the same way as he's done with Shuri and Wakanda.

Hickman has without a doubt, been the worst thing to have happened to T'Challa and the aforementioned BP mythos post Reginald Hudlin and that's a fact that remains indisputable whichever way one wishes to slice it.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 01, 2019, 01:50:39 pm
The MU comic characters are supposed to be in alignment with the Marvel movies. You think Movie Marvel BP will be mute? Powerless? Without Wakanda? No? Okay then.

That means that the twists and turns that he's going through now and all of the largely deserved complaints and cries that it's generated on this board simply show that Hickman is doing a good job of taking TChalla thru the ringer. And all of the foregoing will make TChalla's return climb to superior glory that much more memorable.


"...Hickman is doing a good job of taking T'Challa thru the ringer."

Agreed!  Unfortunately my friend, "T'Challa's return climb to superior glory..." in comics only exists as a figment of your potent imagination.  Hanging your hopes for such a return on the forthcoming movies when they are chronologically behind the books; just introducing Ultron and Civil War story lines, doesn't logically follow. 

All we actually have is what's on the page and to that end we've gone from promise:

([url]http://imageserver.moviepilot.com/new-avengers-vol-3-cover-black-panther-welcome-to-wakanda-king-t-challa.jpeg?width=580&height=362[/url])

to:

([url]http://cdn.entertainmentfuse.com/media/2014/08/Screen-shot-2014-08-24-at-10.53.28-PM.png[/url])

and Reed is now unquestionably the lead:

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/preview/0/0/1/NEWAVN2013014-int-LR2-5-50230.jpg[/url])

(I know this isn't 616 Reed but you can insert the image of Cap confronting Reed and Sue in Avengers #40, I just couldn't find that online.)

For me, even a Priest/Hudlin level redemptive turn, which would be wonderful and welcome, would not undo any of the post-Hudlin experience which has been long, arduous and extremely disrespectful to fans of The Black Panther and Wakanda.

Peace,

Mont



I cannot deny nor would I even attempt to deny that Hickman has put hammer to the anvil of TChalla. No doubt that there are major aspects in there that I'm not loving.

But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?

Right when Battleworld ends.

So. TChalla is definitely on the comeback trail.

And YES you are RIGHT that Hickman's run won't be forgotten. But I tell you this:

Despite the bad pills. Despite the disagreeable pic of TChalla shedding tears. Despite the destruction of Wakanda.

When Hickman is done? He will have done what nobody else has done for TChalla. He will have placed TChalla invincibly front and center as one of the baddest best smartest and still the most independent man in The Avengers, and the MU. And every writer across the MU and comicdom will respectanize the Essence That Is TChalla. And that foundation will allow the CJP's the RH's the Liss' of the future to write TChalla full bore no shame in his game flames WITHOUT backlash from the LCBRD because the LCBRD will now include a much larger, much more diverse audience who ALREADY knows AND accepts TChalla as essentially Marvel's Batman.

Summer. 2016. TChalla tears down all hatas forever in his movie debut with Cap. He'll be with THE AVENGERS too [ making 3 Black guys: Fury, Falcon and TChalla ], which will kick the flava for his own movie up even more notches. And then? A trilogy all about "the shrewdest man in the MU"--CJP.

And Hickman is setting the Marvel Universe up for that, right now.


You do know the Black Panther flick's been pushed back to 2018?


([url]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404002216/irategamerdoesnotsuck/images/2/2f/Tumbleweed.gif[/url])



Of course I do know that TChalla's movie has been pushed back to 2018.

That's why I pointed out that Cap's movie...which introduces TChalla...drops in 2016. That would be CAPTAIN AMERICA: CIVIL WAR.

That's the part where I said: "But. We KNOW that Marvel Comics IS GOING TO reflect the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In the MCU? TChalla is a badass. Therefore. We KNOW that TChalla is going to be a badass BEFORE the movie with Captain America breaks out. When's Cap's Movie? Next year, right?"

This guy right here:

([url]http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzEwLzI5L2Y1L01hcnZlbEJsYWNrLmNlYjUyLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn/cec6fe58/f1d/Marvel-Black-Panther-Poster-03.jpg[/url])



is not a sucka. You don't make hundreds of millions if not billions on a sucka. You don't introduce a sucka via CAPTAIN AMERICA:CIVIL WAR. You don't drop a trilogy costing a hundred million or so in aggregate for the trilogy...on a sucka. You do that only with major bankable properties.

BP is a major bankable property.

Heads are mad at Hickman now...and a lot of them are supposed to e. It's justifiable. But. Before the end of Battleworld? TChalla will be that major hot bankable property.

RH was the only guy who all by his lonesome had both the writing and directing skills to rock that BLACK Panther, but they hated on him [ unjustifiably imo and I will think that til my dying day ] and would let him do it.

Hickman came around and he's actually gonna get it done in the MCU and set it up for Kevin Feigle [ or whatever ole dude's name is ] on the Cinema side.

Proof? Check Marvel Phase 3.

Game over.

TChalla wins.


The sycophancy continues.

How much is Hickman paying you?

On a much more serious note.

I would never have believed that a time would come when a writer would be praised for totally watering down and destroying the Black Panther mythos to such a degree.

It's very hard to fathom but I can only assume that some weird type of Stockholm Syndrome is to blame for this.

Christopher Priest wrote a nuanced, complicated T'Challa replete with angst, knowledge of self and technological superiority without sacrificing T'Challa's inner humanity.

([url]http://i62.tinypic.com/2lwc5g.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i57.tinypic.com/105s3n4.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i61.tinypic.com/2guz62w.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i61.tinypic.com/10crn1z.jpg[/url])

Reginald Hudlin gave us amore swashbuckling, supremely confident and culturally aware T'Challa who served as a bastion to other Black characters within the 616 MU.

([url]http://i41.tinypic.com/9u3z0z.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i41.tinypic.com/20ghc7c.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i59.tinypic.com/wb766v.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i59.tinypic.com/2uze2z9.jpg[/url])

Dwayne McDuffy represented to the max.

([url]http://i58.tinypic.com/dcldy.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i43.tinypic.com/20ka9l2.jpg[/url])

Hell!

Even Geoff Johns, came correct with T'Challa when he was writing the Avengers book.

([url]http://i61.tinypic.com/29z5y6o.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i62.tinypic.com/nzgdqc.jpg[/url])

David liss working from a very disadvantaged position, still succeeded in writing T'Challa as a boss regardless of status and he did so without diminishing either T'Challa, Shuri or Wakanda in the process...

([url]http://i40.tinypic.com/anyjyw.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i44.tinypic.com/20porcm.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i42.tinypic.com/21ej45.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i62.tinypic.com/j8z88w.jpg[/url])

David Liss also created one of the coolest supporting characters in Sofija.....

([url]http://i41.tinypic.com/2qaivpc.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i40.tinypic.com/2rm2sz8.jpg[/url])

who turned out to be quite interesting...

([url]http://i43.tinypic.com/308cmxy.jpg[/url])

All of these writers brought something special to the Black Panther mythos but for some unfathomable reason, I'm supposed to salute Hickman for reducing T'Challa to this...

([url]http://i59.tinypic.com/k9apfp.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i57.tinypic.com/28inx2q.jpg[/url])


Whilst giving T'Challa's attributes to Reed Richards.

([url]http://i61.tinypic.com/343lm43.jpg[/url])




Did the supreme illuminati call it right, or did the supreme illuminati call it right? That up there? SUPREME ILLUMINATION.

Idk how this particular thread came up in a Google Search about other BP related topics, but I'm glad that it did...
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 01, 2019, 08:00:00 pm
I don't want a hero I go from pitying to outright being disturbed by.

Just about everything bad that has happened to Wakanda came from decisions T'Challa made.

JH has actually made me not like my favorite hero.

It has been mentioned earlier, but the only way out it seems is the MCU presentation getting to the core of the character which should appeal to millions, and and not a 60K white males & Uncle Tom's who think a confident & competent black hero is some perfect Mary Sue.

I like TChalla. I dislike many things that Hickman and Mayberry put him through. But I know that the end result is...badass TChalla. Forevermore. So...I'm down with that part.

Dude, I know I said I no longer had a desire to engage with you on this subject but....Damn!

The level of caping you've done for Hickman so far has now reached Rutog98 levels of delusion.

As Happy Pants and many other posters have pointed out, Hickman has written T'Challa as an obtuse traitor to the Wakandan aesthetic that kept that nation inviolate from external enemies for millenia and as te NA saga unfolds and Wakanda lays in smouldering ruins with the loss of millions of Wakandan lives and the death of Shuri, the only Black Panther worth a damn, I really find your unswerving defence of Hickman's disgraceful handling of the BP mythos in really bad taste.

Hickman has done more damage to the BP mythos than Jonathan Maberry who also claimed to be a "fan" of the character before he proceeded to rob Wakanda of Vibranium chump out T'Challa and Ororo and have Bast betray T'Challa and Wakanda by endorsing Doom's plundering of Wakanda and utter humiliation of T'Challa and Co.

There is nothing in Hickman's treatment of T'Challa that indicates an understanding of te character or his world let alone that he even has an real appreciation for the superior character work put in by actual giants such as Reginald Hudlin, CJP, McDuffie and David Liss who actually got T'Challa's characteristics down pat.

Hickman has turned T'Challa into an inneffectual joke character tat no reader in their right mind could ever take seriously but the only person in the proverbial room that doesn't seem to have gotten this memo is you. :smh:


Every letter I wrote. Every prediction I made. Spot. On. 100% right. You? Are the forever respected Salustrade for a reason. But. I have not been wrong about T'Challa's fate since CJP penned him. I'm the supreme illuminati for a reason.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: mayday on May 04, 2019, 06:57:41 am
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 05, 2019, 01:33:45 am
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 05, 2019, 05:33:51 am
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.

Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 05, 2019, 12:25:09 pm
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.



Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.

COSIGN.

We're definitely going to have some big battle scenes ahead, and we're looking at monsta throwdowns in the near future. We mess around and get us THE ULTIMATES in name and mostly in roster onscreen. With the F4 and X-Men coming to Disney? Don'tbe surprised if we see AVX or even more unexpected...AVFX: Avengers vs Fantastic 4 and X-Men. Or some kind of massive multifranchise mashup combining the teams.

You wanna see a big fight? Imagine Silver Surfer and THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY scrappin vs some major intergalactic menace...like the Skrull Empire.

Mess around and see Doom, Malekith and The Grandmaster team up...especially with The Eternals on the horizon. Wouldn't it be absolutely nuts to introduce THE STRANGER in a SILVER SURFER franchise or this here ETERNALS joint to set THE STRANGER up to be a major foe?

You know what's likely to beat all of the team vs team mashups, though? Yep. a multifranchise SECRET INVASION type storyline. That would also give us another humongous Wakanda war scene...essentially SEE WAKANDA AND DIE in the MCU.

And wouldn't it be absolutely friggin crazy to get the first Battleworld with THE BEYONDER or some such coming? And that could herald the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America or The Captain.

And we haven't even touched the kinda fun that Doctor Strange could have. Maybe reintroduce BLADE and DOCTOR VOODOO via a pair of Doctor Strange movies. And Shang Chi movies? Sounds like a good way to bring in Iron Fist, The Punisher ,and pretty much the whole DEFENDERS too.

If Shang-Chi can't do it? Remember the much overlooked and very fun ANT-MAN AND THE WASP team ups aren't going away, and they can bring in good people, too. Maybe Lunella.

If War Machine is on deck, then both Pepper Potts and ReRe Williams have a real opening here. I mean, there's lots of things that even my sleepy brain on a Sunday midafternoon can throw around. And I'm not getting paid millions todream this stuff up. The MCU heads ARE getting millions and even billions to do so. Therefore, I think we can rest assured that the future is in good hands, and we won't see Wakanda butt filleted by the movie variant of the LCBRD.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 05, 2019, 04:41:12 pm
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.



Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.

COSIGN.

We're definitely going to have some big battle scenes ahead, and we're looking at monsta throwdowns in the near future. We mess around and get us THE ULTIMATES in name and mostly in roster onscreen. With the F4 and X-Men coming to Disney? Don'tbe surprised if we see AVX or even more unexpected...AVFX: Avengers vs Fantastic 4 and X-Men. Or some kind of massive multifranchise mashup combining the teams.

You wanna see a big fight? Imagine Silver Surfer and THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY scrappin vs some major intergalactic menace...like the Skrull Empire.

Mess around and see Doom, Malekith and The Grandmaster team up...especially with The Eternals on the horizon. Wouldn't it be absolutely nuts to introduce THE STRANGER in a SILVER SURFER franchise or this here ETERNALS joint to set THE STRANGER up to be a major foe?

You know what's likely to beat all of the team vs team mashups, though? Yep. a multifranchise SECRET INVASION type storyline. That would also give us another humongous Wakanda war scene...essentially SEE WAKANDA AND DIE in the MCU.

And wouldn't it be absolutely friggin crazy to get the first Battleworld with THE BEYONDER or some such coming? And that could herald the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America or The Captain.

And we haven't even touched the kinda fun that Doctor Strange could have. Maybe reintroduce BLADE and DOCTOR VOODOO via a pair of Doctor Strange movies. And Shang Chi movies? Sounds like a good way to bring in Iron Fist, The Punisher ,and pretty much the whole DEFENDERS too.

If Shang-Chi can't do it? Remember the much overlooked and very fun ANT-MAN AND THE WASP team ups aren't going away, and they can bring in good people, too. Maybe Lunella.

If War Machine is on deck, then both Pepper Potts and ReRe Williams have a real opening here. I mean, there's lots of things that even my sleepy brain on a Sunday midafternoon can throw around. And I'm not getting paid millions todream this stuff up. The MCU heads ARE getting millions and even billions to do so. Therefore, I think we can rest assured that the future is in good hands, and we won't see Wakanda butt filleted by the movie variant of the LCBRD.

I wonder about Silver Surfer, because they seemed to have placed Captain Marvel into that role.  Thinking about Endgame; practically every scene she was in, I could see the Silver Surfer in each spot.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 05, 2019, 09:28:08 pm
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.



Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.

COSIGN.

We're definitely going to have some big battle scenes ahead, and we're looking at monsta throwdowns in the near future. We mess around and get us THE ULTIMATES in name and mostly in roster onscreen. With the F4 and X-Men coming to Disney? Don'tbe surprised if we see AVX or even more unexpected...AVFX: Avengers vs Fantastic 4 and X-Men. Or some kind of massive multifranchise mashup combining the teams.

You wanna see a big fight? Imagine Silver Surfer and THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY scrappin vs some major intergalactic menace...like the Skrull Empire.

Mess around and see Doom, Malekith and The Grandmaster team up...especially with The Eternals on the horizon. Wouldn't it be absolutely nuts to introduce THE STRANGER in a SILVER SURFER franchise or this here ETERNALS joint to set THE STRANGER up to be a major foe?

You know what's likely to beat all of the team vs team mashups, though? Yep. a multifranchise SECRET INVASION type storyline. That would also give us another humongous Wakanda war scene...essentially SEE WAKANDA AND DIE in the MCU.

And wouldn't it be absolutely friggin crazy to get the first Battleworld with THE BEYONDER or some such coming? And that could herald the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America or The Captain.

And we haven't even touched the kinda fun that Doctor Strange could have. Maybe reintroduce BLADE and DOCTOR VOODOO via a pair of Doctor Strange movies. And Shang Chi movies? Sounds like a good way to bring in Iron Fist, The Punisher ,and pretty much the whole DEFENDERS too.

If Shang-Chi can't do it? Remember the much overlooked and very fun ANT-MAN AND THE WASP team ups aren't going away, and they can bring in good people, too. Maybe Lunella.

If War Machine is on deck, then both Pepper Potts and ReRe Williams have a real opening here. I mean, there's lots of things that even my sleepy brain on a Sunday midafternoon can throw around. And I'm not getting paid millions todream this stuff up. The MCU heads ARE getting millions and even billions to do so. Therefore, I think we can rest assured that the future is in good hands, and we won't see Wakanda butt filleted by the movie variant of the LCBRD.

I wonder about Silver Surfer, because they seemed to have placed Captain Marvel into that role.  Thinking about Endgame; practically every scene she was in, I could see the Silver Surfer in each spot.


I haven't seen Endgame, but I can "see" what you mean right away. Here's of course where there are some major differences to bring up with these characters, too.

Silver Surfer brings Galactus into play. And with Galactus? Comes Annihilus, The Makers, the entire TRO cast and crew, and more.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 17, 2019, 04:17:47 pm
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.

Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.



Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.

COSIGN.

We're definitely going to have some big battle scenes ahead, and we're looking at monsta throwdowns in the near future. We mess around and get us THE ULTIMATES in name and mostly in roster onscreen. With the F4 and X-Men coming to Disney? Don'tbe surprised if we see AVX or even more unexpected...AVFX: Avengers vs Fantastic 4 and X-Men. Or some kind of massive multifranchise mashup combining the teams.

You wanna see a big fight? Imagine Silver Surfer and THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY scrappin vs some major intergalactic menace...like the Skrull Empire.

Mess around and see Doom, Malekith and The Grandmaster team up...especially with The Eternals on the horizon. Wouldn't it be absolutely nuts to introduce THE STRANGER in a SILVER SURFER franchise or this here ETERNALS joint to set THE STRANGER up to be a major foe?

You know what's likely to beat all of the team vs team mashups, though? Yep. a multifranchise SECRET INVASION type storyline. That would also give us another humongous Wakanda war scene...essentially SEE WAKANDA AND DIE in the MCU.

And wouldn't it be absolutely friggin crazy to get the first Battleworld with THE BEYONDER or some such coming? And that could herald the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America or The Captain.

And we haven't even touched the kinda fun that Doctor Strange could have. Maybe reintroduce BLADE and DOCTOR VOODOO via a pair of Doctor Strange movies. And Shang Chi movies? Sounds like a good way to bring in Iron Fist, The Punisher ,and pretty much the whole DEFENDERS too.

If Shang-Chi can't do it? Remember the much overlooked and very fun ANT-MAN AND THE WASP team ups aren't going away, and they can bring in good people, too. Maybe Lunella.

If War Machine is on deck, then both Pepper Potts and ReRe Williams have a real opening here. I mean, there's lots of things that even my sleepy brain on a Sunday midafternoon can throw around. And I'm not getting paid millions todream this stuff up. The MCU heads ARE getting millions and even billions to do so. Therefore, I think we can rest assured that the future is in good hands, and we won't see Wakanda butt filleted by the movie variant of the LCBRD.

I wonder about Silver Surfer, because they seemed to have placed Captain Marvel into that role.  Thinking about Endgame; practically every scene she was in, I could see the Silver Surfer in each spot.


I donít but thatís because Iíve always found Surfer boring except for Slott/Allredís Surfer as played by Doctor Who.
Title: Re: The Destruction of the Black Panther Jonathan Hickman's Legacy?
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 20, 2019, 05:43:18 pm
Next comes the big screen destruction of Wakanda. Much to the delight of a lot of "fine people". No surprise after after disney showed dead black kids in Avengers : Civil War.


Idk if that will happen, brutha. Wakanda seems to have survived Thanos, even though both Shuri and T'Challa were killed by The Snap. And? BP 2 is coming prolly in 2021. Soooo. I really don't think that Wakanda is or will be destroyed. Let's see how it goes.




Besides, they already destroyed Asgard.  And moved the remnant to a "shanty fishing village." (A friend's quote.)  They didn't destroy the city until they were done with new Thor movies.  Destruction of Wakanda probably wouldn't happen until we reach the final BP movie, and it might not happen then either--especially if the same creative crew that put it together writes that final story.

Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they have another "big battle."  Marvel movies do like those big battle scenes.


COSIGN.

We're definitely going to have some big battle scenes ahead, and we're looking at monsta throwdowns in the near future. We mess around and get us THE ULTIMATES in name and mostly in roster onscreen. With the F4 and X-Men coming to Disney? Don'tbe surprised if we see AVX or even more unexpected...AVFX: Avengers vs Fantastic 4 and X-Men. Or some kind of massive multifranchise mashup combining the teams.

You wanna see a big fight? Imagine Silver Surfer and THE GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY scrappin vs some major intergalactic menace...like the Skrull Empire.

Mess around and see Doom, Malekith and The Grandmaster team up...especially with The Eternals on the horizon. Wouldn't it be absolutely nuts to introduce THE STRANGER in a SILVER SURFER franchise or this here ETERNALS joint to set THE STRANGER up to be a major foe?

You know what's likely to beat all of the team vs team mashups, though? Yep. a multifranchise SECRET INVASION type storyline. That would also give us another humongous Wakanda war scene...essentially SEE WAKANDA AND DIE in the MCU.

And wouldn't it be absolutely friggin crazy to get the first Battleworld with THE BEYONDER or some such coming? And that could herald the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America or The Captain.

And we haven't even touched the kinda fun that Doctor Strange could have. Maybe reintroduce BLADE and DOCTOR VOODOO via a pair of Doctor Strange movies. And Shang Chi movies? Sounds like a good way to bring in Iron Fist, The Punisher ,and pretty much the whole DEFENDERS too.

If Shang-Chi can't do it? Remember the much overlooked and very fun ANT-MAN AND THE WASP team ups aren't going away, and they can bring in good people, too. Maybe Lunella.

If War Machine is on deck, then both Pepper Potts and ReRe Williams have a real opening here. I mean, there's lots of things that even my sleepy brain on a Sunday midafternoon can throw around. And I'm not getting paid millions todream this stuff up. The MCU heads ARE getting millions and even billions to do so. Therefore, I think we can rest assured that the future is in good hands, and we won't see Wakanda butt filleted by the movie variant of the LCBRD.


I wonder about Silver Surfer, because they seemed to have placed Captain Marvel into that role.  Thinking about Endgame; practically every scene she was in, I could see the Silver Surfer in each spot.



I donít but thatís because Iíve always found Surfer boring except for Slott/Allredís Surfer as played by Doctor Who.



Man, I read a really dope Surfer TPB from about 10 years ago that really touched on the strange mysteries of the universe and the mindbending breadth depth and array of powers at The Surfer's disposal. The few times I read about The Surfer in his own book or miniseries, imo the writers didn't really really really seem to know what to do with him. He seemed to be far too powerful for the threats thrown his way, and he seemed more inclined toward philosphical reflection and honorable action than anything else. That DOES pretty much make him boring in those earlier depictions. Or...even worse...they reduced his powers so that enemies like The Skrulls who normally wouldn't pose a great challenge to The Surfer were able to actually devise a clone that defeated The Surfer in a one on one battle. This is the same Surfer who effortlessly rebuilt Beta Ray Bill's hammer and caused amazement if not awe in...izzat  Odin The All-Father..?

(http://i.imgur.com/rEvPRZL.jpg)


This Silver Surfer that one artifically powered Skrull defeated? Cured THOUSANDS of beings AT THE SAME TIME...ON A MOLECULAR LEVEL...of an especially heinous and lethal virus. And Surfer did it with a mere THOUGHT.


(http://i.imgur.com/pHhKUpb.jpg)

This guy? Destroys an alien mother ship larger than Earth with a SINGLE cosmic bolt. Death Star Surfer style.

(http://i.imgur.com/HTuXrL5.jpg)

This Surfer? Reduces an avatar of Thanos to cosmic ash...because Thanos is evil and annoyed him.

(http://i.imgur.com/0E05Pmz.jpg)

Here is the Silver Surfer stopping the menacing, cosmically powerful Uni-Lord...then destroying an entire solar system. Effortlessly. With a single blast. After he warned Uni-Lord to put a cap on and back off all that evil stuff the Uni-Lord was on.

(http://i.imgur.com/cKgxxVn.jpg)

I would love to get a crack at The Surfer, but I would have to fall back and really think about the kinds of adventures that such a being would have. And I would fundamentally upgrade and/or alter certain things about Surfer that never really made sense to me weren't done already. For instance? Surfer should have cosmic level intelligence instantly, else his Cosmic Senses would overwhelm his less than cosmic intellect of a brain with the cosmic power levels of detail, saturation, speed, etc. that they bombard him with.