Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Metro on May 03, 2015, 07:12:46 am

Title: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on May 03, 2015, 07:12:46 am

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 04, 2015, 09:26:44 am

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?


I noticed the deliberate word choice and language similarities right away, as of course...Hickman made sure that these "similarities" were not accidents at all but reflective of important parts of the plot and storylines. And yes, I had been given reason to reflect several times upon the suggestion that TChalla was the good version of Doom...and Magneto...and a few other characters...combined.

T'Challa was more than the good version of Doom as CJP initially drew similarities between Magneto and TChalla, and then went beyond that to Doom and others. RH also specifically repeated that he liked the TCHALLA/DOOM "opposite sides of the same coin" comparison.

I personally think that TChalla is smarter than Doom is. I mean TChalla the human Wakandan unaugmented in any way...not TChalla as THE BLACK PANTHER, with his ability to draw upon the undefeated unbroken 10k year old line of supergeniuses who are The Black Panthers as his inner resources, and not TChallas as THE KING OF THE DEAD, wherein he is able to automatically and consistently share the experiences of al lother Panthers as if these things happened to TChalla himself, as opposed to "merely" spiritually consulting with them as he can as THE BLACK PANTHER.

In my fanfic, I have T'Syan tell D'Ciggs that the reason that Doom was able to get the drop on TChalla is because TChalla was still fighting the inoperable aneurysm that he caught under CJP's pen,and it had progressed to the point where it compromised TChalla enough to be nearly killed by Doom, before he righted himself and manipulated Doom into what became DOOM WAR.

TChalla's return from the realm of Death due to Ororo's heroics led him directly to experimenting with not just Shadow Physics but Dark Physics, and these experiments led to him discovering and implementing the cure to his inoperable brain aneurysm. Where science couldn't operate, magic and a blend of science magic and ka could operate and triumph.


As for Secret Wars? I'm sure that it's only the beginning. Unlike many here, I don't buy that Doom Strange and Molecule Man are dead. Seems to me that The Beyonders tricked DOOM into hurling that...universe killing bomb...into The Beyonders' dimensional aperture or whatever. And this weapon killed all the universes except for two, as TChalla and Reed confirmed. The Beyonders moved themselves into the same reality that is occupied by 616 Doom Strange and Molecule Man. The other Universe is of course The Ultimate Universe.

Things are about to get real interesting.

And for the record? I don't like the mask of TChalla wherein we get to actually see his eyes. Like his mask has holes cut out for the eyes. I like the Priest era and Ledkilla habits TChalla rocked. I jsut want the Priest era habit to be BLACK with gold. The original Black Panther outfit I thought was too dull. It was cool to an extent but...too dull. I like the improvements made upon it by other artists, but the BLACK AND GOLD version of the Priest era outfit is where it's at.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on May 05, 2015, 05:03:04 pm
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2yjraeq.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on May 06, 2015, 06:00:28 am
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 06, 2015, 08:48:00 am
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.

I've seen Reed lose a lot of things but I haven't gotten Secret Wars #1 yet. Which loss of Reed's are you referring to?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on May 06, 2015, 08:53:41 am
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.

I've seen Reed lose a lot of things but I haven't gotten Secret Wars #1 yet. Which loss of Reed's are you referring to?

He watched his whole family die (as far as he knows).

This issue was jam packed, and it's great to see T'Challa as not just one of the survivors, but practically the leader of the survivors (Reed's going to be a bad place for a while).
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Booshman on May 06, 2015, 08:53:59 am
So basically Manifold chumped out Storm for Cyclops AND Lady Thor, by not letting her come aboard the arc.

Lol.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on May 06, 2015, 08:55:32 am
So basically Manifold chumped out Storm for Cyclops AND Lady Thor, by not letting her come aboard the arc.

Lol.

sh*t, nevermind those two (at least they are packing heat), she got chumped over STAR LORD!


Gatdamn.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Booshman on May 06, 2015, 08:59:43 am
So basically Manifold chumped out Storm for Cyclops AND Lady Thor, by not letting her come aboard the arc.

Lol.

sh*t, nevermind those two (at least they are packing heat), she got chumped over STAR LORD!


Gatdamn.

LOL! Somehow, I bet this is going to be "T'challa's fault", even though it was 100% Manifold's decision, with whom to save.

And "damn", this is the second time Storm's been killed in an explosion in recent history.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on May 06, 2015, 12:18:49 pm

I noticed the deliberate word choice and language similarities right away, as of course...Hickman made sure that these "similarities" were not accidents at all but reflective of important parts of the plot and storylines. And yes, I had been given reason to reflect several times upon the suggestion that TChalla was the good version of Doom...and Magneto...and a few other characters...combined.

As for Secret Wars? I'm sure that it's only the beginning. Unlike many here, I don't buy that Doom Strange and Molecule Man are dead. Seems to me that The Beyonders tricked DOOM into hurling that...universe killing bomb...into The Beyonders' dimensional aperture or whatever. And this weapon killed all the universes except for two, as TChalla and Reed confirmed. The Beyonders moved themselves into the same reality that is occupied by 616 Doom Strange and Molecule Man. The other Universe is of course The Ultimate Universe.

Trying to find a way to get SW1 (S1W?) today...
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 06, 2015, 04:53:46 pm
Frank Castle went out in a blaze of glory
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 06, 2015, 09:59:09 pm
Frank Castle went out in a blaze of glory

That's how you go out. A blaze of glory. And in that regard? I don't see anyone topping Hyperion and Thor's exit.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 06, 2015, 10:13:03 pm
So basically Manifold chumped out Storm for Cyclops AND Lady Thor, by not letting her come aboard the arc.

Lol.

sh*t, nevermind those two (at least they are packing heat), she got chumped over STAR LORD!


Gatdamn.

LOL! Somehow, I bet this is going to be "T'challa's fault", even though it was 100% Manifold's decision, with whom to save.

And "damn", this is the second time Storm's been killed in an explosion in recent history.


YOU KNOW THIS, MAN [ in my best Chris Tucker Pookie from FRIDAY voice ]!!

What? They killed Storm in ANOTHER explosion BEFORE this one? And Lordy...isn't that Storm on the cover of SW 1? I thought we'd see Storm in A-Force. Guess the getting her dead with the rest of Earth thing stopped that, huh?

And of course. It means that STORM is going to pop up somewhere in the near future, but Marvel will be able to tell the X-Racists who care about hating on TChalla that this Storm is not the previous Storm and wait to see how things shake out in the MU after the whole Battleworld and other stuff is done.

Which...although annoying...is a true statement. Cuz writers can get down how they like, especially post-Battleworld.
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.

I've seen Reed lose a lot of things but I haven't gotten Secret Wars #1 yet. Which loss of Reed's are you referring to?

He watched his whole family die (as far as he knows).

This issue was jam packed, and it's great to see T'Challa as not just one of the survivors, but practically the leader of the survivors (Reed's going to be a bad place for a while).


Hooolllyyyy CRAP!! That sucks. It's nowhere near as bad as watching your country and most of your countrymen get ashed by Thanos, but it still sucks. And it IS great to see T'Challa as not just one of the survivors, but practically teh leader of the survivors, too.

Hmmm. Didn't a certain illuminated person tell some people on this site say a month or so ago that this would happen? That T'Challa would begin his slow but certain turn up, and accelerate as CAPTAIN AMERICA CIVIL WAR comes down the pipeline, and kick into  hyperdrive with both THE AVENGERS aaaannnd his trilogy of movies? That's 2016-2018 of badder and badder badass TChalla.  Didn't this very same illuminated person state that TChalla is a virtual lock for his own ongoing again, in the near future...2016 and definitely no later than 2017...only for Mark Waid [ I believe it was ] to confirm it via that CBR post? When he pointed out all these great things for TChalla and then felt uncomfortable because some people in the room said that if he [ the White comic book author telling this story ] was African-American, they'd give him the job on the spot to write TChalla.

Let's see what else happens. We know that Hickman is with that long game style, so expect a bunch of unpredictable twists and turns over the next year and some change.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Booshman on May 07, 2015, 10:01:51 am
YOU KNOW THIS, MAN [ in my best Chris Tucker Pookie from FRIDAY voice ]!!

What? They killed Storm in ANOTHER explosion BEFORE this one? And Lordy...isn't that Storm on the cover of SW 1? I thought we'd see Storm in A-Force. Guess the getting her dead with the rest of Earth thing stopped that, huh?

And of course. It means that STORM is going to pop up somewhere in the near future, but Marvel will be able to tell the X-Racists who care about hating on TChalla that this Storm is not the previous Storm and wait to see how things shake out in the MU after the whole Battleworld and other stuff is done.

Which...although annoying...is a true statement. Cuz writers can get down how they like, especially post-Battleworld.


Yeah. She was cannon fodder used to prop up Xavier, Scott, and Eva. Bendis killed her and all the JGS in Uncanny X-Men 031. And then retconned it in the same issue, via convoluted means of changing history, with timetravel.

Shortly after Scott inherited the school, during Xavier's final will and testament reading (Storm was Xavier's second choice) he turned it down, and gave it to Storm. Where shortly after inheriting it, Storm (while hypocritically using "mutant" as an insult on the same front lawn she said "mutants need to get along!" on, in an earlier issue) and the students attacked Malloy. The wildly unstable mutant who killed Emma in a previous issue and Scott in the current time-line they're in, (it's confusing, I know) who then promptly one-shotted all of them and blew up the school.

(http://i.imgur.com/7ww8mLk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/nUFPwvM.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 07, 2015, 06:21:21 pm
Such a waste of Chris Bachalo's talents, put that man back on a Avengers or Spidey book
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 07, 2015, 06:25:14 pm
Such a waste of Chris Bachalo's talents, put that man back on a Avengers or Spidey book

Yeah I do like his artwork.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 07, 2015, 08:39:49 pm
Such a waste of Chris Bachalo's talents, put that man back on a Avengers or Spidey book

Yeah I do like his artwork.


Damn shame now he seems to be grafted to Bendis
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: JLI Jesse on May 08, 2015, 08:57:00 am
Such a waste of Chris Bachalo's talents, put that man back on a Avengers or Spidey book


Yeah I do like his artwork.



Damn shame now he seems to be grafted to Bendis


More of this Bachalo

(https://40.media.tumblr.com/131881df5b045bf9df7496be948a4812/tumblr_mytklzzNOf1s7y6fao1_500.png)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/1d1b9d3196314ff9ea4130882e73fe89/tumblr_mpmn6brCGX1r0v66bo1_500.jpg) (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b0/9f/d3/b09fd3582b545f82e1df115ba7501ac1.jpg)

Less of this Bachalo

(https://p.dreamwidth.org/c42ae5e7773f/i31.tinypic.com/vwpxd0.jpg) (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060423173900/marveldatabase/images/5/5f/Generation_X_Vol_1_31.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 08, 2015, 10:52:10 am
I like both but old Bachalo is as dead as disco
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 08, 2015, 03:14:48 pm
I like his newer stuff better.  But he was on X-Men long before Bendis came on board.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 08, 2015, 07:44:26 pm
He was but until Aaron and Bendis went X and pulled him he was switching between Avengers and Spider-Man and Spidey IMO is a far better fit for his current style
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Moose100 on May 10, 2015, 08:12:07 am

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?

Great Catch! I knew he words were familiar but didnt catch that. He said Tchalla was important despite my dissappointment. I have been hopeful hed shine in SW because he wasnt myuch in the second act. (Avengers New Avengers)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 10, 2015, 08:19:14 am

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?

Great Catch! I knew he words were familiar but didnt catch that. He said Tchalla was important despite my dissappointment. I have been hopeful hed shine in SW because he wasnt myuch in the second act. (Avengers New Avengers)

Did I read correctly that the different issues of Secret Wars will have different writers? That is Hickman isn't writing the entire series?  I thought Aaron was writing one issue.  I hope not; whenever they do that, the story reads choppy and sometimes even conflict.  (Plus, not good for BP, if other writers take over now.)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on May 10, 2015, 12:28:37 pm

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?

Great Catch! I knew he words were familiar but didnt catch that. He said Tchalla was important despite my dissappointment. I have been hopeful hed shine in SW because he wasnt myuch in the second act. (Avengers New Avengers)

Did I read correctly that the different issues of Secret Wars will have different writers? That is Hickman isn't writing the entire series?  I thought Aaron was writing one issue.  I hope not; whenever they do that, the story reads choppy and sometimes even conflict.  (Plus, not good for BP, if other writers take over now.)

All Hickman.  Everyone else is writing other stories.  Some may have little impact in the main, the vast majority will not.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 12, 2015, 04:09:26 pm
SPOILER ALERT REGARDING THE NEW THOR'S IDENTITY


She's Jane Foster. Donald Blake's ex-gf or whatever. And the act of picking up Mjolnir...the power of the hammer...is killing her. Causing her to have breast cancer.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html (http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html)

Any teasers for SW 2?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 12, 2015, 05:19:07 pm
SPOILER ALERT REGARDING THE NEW THOR'S IDENTITY


She's Jane Foster. Donald Blake's ex-gf or whatever. And the act of picking up Mjolnir...the power of the hammer...is killing her. Causing her to have breast cancer.

[url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url] ([url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url])

Any teasers for SW 2?


First Pepper Potts is Rescue
Then Betty becomes Red She-Hulk
Gwen Stacy becomes Spider-Gwen

Now Jane becomes Thor.

So Monica is going to become the new Black Panther-clone.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: JRCarter on May 12, 2015, 08:08:17 pm
SPOILER ALERT REGARDING THE NEW THOR'S IDENTITY


She's Jane Foster. Donald Blake's ex-gf or whatever. And the act of picking up Mjolnir...the power of the hammer...is killing her. Causing her to have breast cancer.

[url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url] ([url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url])

Any teasers for SW 2?


First Pepper Potts is Rescue
Then Betty becomes Red She-Hulk
Gwen Stacy becomes Spider-Gwen

Now Jane becomes Thor.

So Monica is going to become the new Black Panther-clone.


Don't give Marvel any ideas.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Mad Coco G on May 12, 2015, 08:24:03 pm
SPOILER ALERT REGARDING THE NEW THOR'S IDENTITY


She's Jane Foster. Donald Blake's ex-gf or whatever. And the act of picking up Mjolnir...the power of the hammer...is killing her. Causing her to have breast cancer.

[url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url] ([url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url])

Any teasers for SW 2?



As someone who didn't want this spoiled wtf does this have to do with Secret Wars?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KidKamikaze10 on May 13, 2015, 08:05:32 am
Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on May 13, 2015, 06:00:00 pm
Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.

Why would another Doom wankfest have T'Challa in it?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: JLI Jesse on May 13, 2015, 06:16:11 pm
Any teasers for SW 2?

I went into issue 1 with low expectations and I actually really enjoyed it. I got my hopes up for issue 2 but it was just kinda....eh. I mean, the writing was good, but it just seems like another House of M, only with Doom in charge instead of Magneto. The ending might lead to something interesting but when all is said and done, Battleworld will only be a memory.

Maybe House of M is the wrong event to compare it to...I should have compared it to Flashpoint. A series set in an altered timeline that won't really matter, but will lead to changes in the mainstream universe.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 13, 2015, 06:46:32 pm
Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.

Why would another Doom wankfest have T'Challa in it?

Isn't Doom already dead and gone?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on May 15, 2015, 06:07:06 am

Given Reed's last words in SW1, I think "Doom" in SW2 is actually Reed. The entire reconstruction is another attempt by the Beyonders at (so far) unknowable ends.

By SW4, there should be a clearer sense of both the smaller character developments and the larger crisis in the plot.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Marvelous on May 15, 2015, 01:47:51 pm
Jesse should be happy.  I'm done with Marvel.  How the F**K do you kill The Living Tribunal?!??!
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 15, 2015, 08:55:35 pm
SPOILER ALERT REGARDING THE NEW THOR'S IDENTITY


She's Jane Foster. Donald Blake's ex-gf or whatever. And the act of picking up Mjolnir...the power of the hammer...is killing her. Causing her to have breast cancer.

[url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url] ([url]http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/marvel-female-thor-secret-identity-jason-aaron.html[/url])

Any teasers for SW 2?



As someone who didn't want this spoiled wtf does this have to do with Secret Wars?


Thor Corps. The "police" on Doomworld. I thought Jane Foster aka Thor might be in Thor Corps or whatever the Thors are called on Battleworld. Beta Ray Bill is there. Storm is there. Sooo...I thought...Jane would be a good fit, too.Any info on that, yet?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 15, 2015, 09:00:53 pm
Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.

Why would another Doom wankfest have T'Challa in it?

Isn't TChalla with Reed on the life raft that TChalla designed and probably built?

Any teasers for SW 2?

I went into issue 1 with low expectations and I actually really enjoyed it. I got my hopes up for issue 2 but it was just kinda....eh. I mean, the writing was good, but it just seems like another House of M, only with Doom in charge instead of Magneto. The ending might lead to something interesting but when all is said and done, Battleworld will only be a memory.
 
Maybe House of M is the wrong event to compare it to...I should have compared it to Flashpoint. A series set in an altered timeline that won't really matter, but will lead to changes in the mainstream universe.

Flashpoint. Never heard of it or read it, but based on your post above? Good comparison.

Or. Maybe not.

Battleworld will have HUGE impact on the MU. As it is the spawning ground for the ENTIRE NEW MU. So. Unless Flashpoint restarted and expanded an entire comics universe? Flashpoint isn't really the good comparison that it may have seemed to be.

Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.



ABOUT TIME, MAN I HAVE REALLY WANTED TCHALLA TO BE IN MIGHTY AVENGERS.

[ Races off to find TChalla in Mighty Avengers ]
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: JLI Jesse on May 15, 2015, 09:06:16 pm
So. Unless Flashpoint restarted and expanded an entire comics universe? Flashpoint isn't really the good comparison that it may have seemed to be.


That's exactly what Flashpoint did.

"Flashpoint is an American comic book crossover story arc published by DC Comics. Consisting of an eponymous core limited series and a number of tie-in titles, the storyline premiered in May 2011. The core miniseries was written by Geoff Johns and penciled by Andy Kubert. In its conclusion, the series radically changes the status quo for the DC Universe leading into the publisher's 2011 relaunch, The New 52."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 16, 2015, 05:59:30 am
So. Unless Flashpoint restarted and expanded an entire comics universe? Flashpoint isn't really the good comparison that it may have seemed to be.


That's exactly what Flashpoint did.

"Flashpoint is an American comic book crossover story arc published by DC Comics. Consisting of an eponymous core limited series and a number of tie-in titles, the storyline premiered in May 2011. The core miniseries was written by Geoff Johns and penciled by Andy Kubert. In its conclusion, the series radically changes the status quo for the DC Universe leading into the publisher's 2011 relaunch, The New 52."

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29[/url])


Flashpoint reset it TWICE!

First, it created an alternate universe where everyone was different and then it recreated the universe into 52.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2015, 12:26:18 pm
So. Unless Flashpoint restarted and expanded an entire comics universe? Flashpoint isn't really the good comparison that it may have seemed to be.


That's exactly what Flashpoint did.

"Flashpoint is an American comic book crossover story arc published by DC Comics. Consisting of an eponymous core limited series and a number of tie-in titles, the storyline premiered in May 2011. The core miniseries was written by Geoff Johns and penciled by Andy Kubert. In its conclusion, the series radically changes the status quo for the DC Universe leading into the publisher's 2011 relaunch, The New 52."

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashpoint_%28comics%29[/url])


Flashpoint reset it TWICE!

First, it created an alternate universe where everyone was different and then it recreated the universe into 52.



Holy Fact Checking, Batman!

Thanks bruh.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Emperorjones on May 16, 2015, 06:41:47 pm
Regarding Flashpoint, I recommend Flashpoint: Batman. Cyborg was supposed to be the main hero of the Flashpoint universe but they really didn't do anything with him, IMO, and if I recall he didn't get his own Flashpoint series.

Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 18, 2015, 03:46:56 pm
Regarding Flashpoint, I recommend Flashpoint: Batman. Cyborg was supposed to be the main hero of the Flashpoint universe but they really didn't do anything with him, IMO, and if I recall he didn't get his own Flashpoint series.

I didn't know that Cyborg was given ANY love in the DCU.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Emperorjones on May 18, 2015, 06:24:59 pm
Well with Flashpoint it was more b.s. clapping Cyborg on the back and big upping him without really giving him much to do, IMO, or even his own side series. Though in the New 52 they have tried to raise his profile. They included him on the Justice League, sidestepping the Teen Titans. I think he played a role in Forever Evil, working with the Metal Men (that's collected in the graphic novel Forever Justice-I picked it up but haven't read it. To be real though I was hoping it was the Forever Evil story more so than Cyborg and the Metal Men; should've paid more attention before I bought it). Cyborg is finally getting his solo series, which comes out this summer, and is being written by David F. Walker, who is doing the Shaft book right now. I'm looking forward to Walker's Cyborg series.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on May 29, 2015, 09:49:25 am

The preview for SW3 was engaging - more info about the background between Strange and Doom. The unanswered question involves the absence of Owen Reese for their plot thread.

Hopefully, there will be some presentation of the BP/Reed team because their activities will be the hub of the multiversal reset.

I still think the Beyonders are some futuristic version of the 'good guys'. They will probably have to disappear/die to really open up a new status quo for Marvel.

Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on August 23, 2015, 07:39:36 am

Where do you think this story is going? With the delays, it has been hard to follow.  Still, there was an interesting glimpse of Marvel's next phase in the last few pages of SW5.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Kimoyo on August 23, 2015, 01:13:22 pm
Good question Doc!?!  Other than a somewhat cliched Reed vs Doom showdown, your guess is good as mine?

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Ezyo on August 23, 2015, 08:38:54 pm
My guess, a small fight between namor and BP, maybe Hickman might actually have T'Challa doing something without needing to have Reed there to hold his hand, or he is just going to show some more build up to Reed defeating god Doom and taking his family from him, while restoring the MU and maybe giving a slight pat on the back to T'Challa for the sidekick assist
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Blanks on August 24, 2015, 09:31:01 am
Maybe since T'Challa is the King of the Dead he can use whatever gift Stange gave him to resurrect the Beyonders only if they agree never to do another 'life/death" experiment on the Multiverse ever again.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Ezyo on August 24, 2015, 01:41:27 pm
Maybe since T'Challa is the King of the Dead he can use whatever gift Stange gave him to resurrect the Beyonders only if they agree never to do another 'life/death" experiment on the Multiverse ever again.

I dont think he has the power to resurrect anyone and if he could do it would only apply to Wakandan's. I question whether or not he is even KotD anymore after the debacle with T'Chaka
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 27, 2015, 06:20:27 pm
Remember months ago when I predicted that SW would probably expand to 9 or 10 issues? It happened. Everything else I predicted will happen, too.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Ezyo on August 30, 2015, 05:12:28 pm
Remember months ago when I predicted that SW would probably expand to 9 or 10 issues? It happened. Everything else I predicted will happen, too.

[url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url] ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url])


Sw extending doesn't necessarily mean its good. Honestly they could finish it in sw#8 by adding more page's to accommodate to finish. Adding another issue simply means more potential for spoilers from the new release issues coming out. Also there still isn't much that say's T'Challa is going to be elevated to some Supreme position no strings attached. If it happens great it will be a welcome change from what Hickman has shown, but I don't see him changing how he handle's things now when he has been making him a fool for 3 + years
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 31, 2015, 10:32:13 pm
Remember months ago when I predicted that SW would probably expand to 9 or 10 issues? It happened. Everything else I predicted will happen, too.

[url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url] ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url])


Sw extending doesn't necessarily mean its good. Honestly they could finish it in sw#8 by adding more page's to accommodate to finish. Adding another issue simply means more potential for spoilers from the new release issues coming out. Also there still isn't much that say's T'Challa is going to be elevated to some Supreme position no strings attached. If it happens great it will be a welcome change from what Hickman has shown, but I don't see him changing how he handle's things now when he has been making him a fool for 3 + years



If Marvel would Double Size an issue in this series? It would probably be #9, as a more sensible number to end this story on would be 10 or 12. Secret Wars has maxiseries...and I thought MAXI series with adult material in it...written all over it. But. Guess I was wrong.

As for chumping out TChalla? We'll see. Seems to me that TChalla has done pretty good feat-wise in relation to the story and the other characters once SECRET WARS had begun. From The Ark on forward. Almost every time we see TChalla on panel in this series,  he does something or receives something noteworthy.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Ezyo on September 01, 2015, 07:12:21 am
Remember months ago when I predicted that SW would probably expand to 9 or 10 issues? It happened. Everything else I predicted will happen, too.

[url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url] ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvels-secret-wars-expands-to-nine-issues[/url])


Sw extending doesn't necessarily mean its good. Honestly they could finish it in sw#8 by adding more page's to accommodate to finish. Adding another issue simply means more potential for spoilers from the new release issues coming out. Also there still isn't much that say's T'Challa is going to be elevated to some Supreme position no strings attached. If it happens great it will be a welcome change from what Hickman has shown, but I don't see him changing how he handle's things now when he has been making him a fool for 3 + years



If Marvel would Double Size an issue in this series? It would probably be #9, as a more sensible number to end this story on would be 10 or 12. Secret Wars has maxiseries...and I thought MAXI series with adult material in it...written all over it. But. Guess I was wrong.

As for chumping out TChalla? We'll see. Seems to me that TChalla has done pretty good feat-wise in relation to the story and the other characters once SECRET WARS had begun. From The Ark on forward. Almost every time we see TChalla on panel in this series,  he does something or receives something noteworthy.


The issue is that they are having to delay in order to finish the story, which means with the all new all different MU series will have a couple issues out before SW even ends, and there could easily be a possibility that SW could be delayed till 2016 as well. Only other thing that could make sense is SW ends on #8 and #9 is a big exposition as to what happened in the 8 month time span after the new #1's start. Either way, when Marvel hyped up the end of everything, its good to keep to schedule or atleast have #8 and #9 come out the same month.

As for T'Challa, he really hasn't done anything, yes there was the Ark (though it was already established that he only had the idea thanks to the Richards family) and we will see what he does with the info strange gave him, but im still not holding my breathe that now Hickman will do a 180 and let T'challa pull off good feats with no strings attached. Its probably just going to be a assist with Reed doing the heavy lifting. Thats kind already been foreshadowed when Strange told god Doom that he should be afraid of what Reed is going to do to him for stealing his life. 
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on January 17, 2016, 03:41:41 am
Reax to SW9.

Giant confrontation between T'Challa and Doom deserves a lot of discussion. The immediate killing of Namor was striking, and the ascendance of Black Panther with the Infinity Gauntlet should merit a long-term reflection (perhaps a limited series in 2017? did he design ISO-8 to stabilize the multiverse while battling Doom?). His mocking Doom with his own words to reveal the ruse was not given enough attention.

Most importantly, though, the moment to seize the reality gem and restore Wakanda should be the emphasis of the readers on this board. Again, I see it as an indication of how seriously the conversations here are taken in considering the narrative arc for T'Challa. The specific return to the moment when T'Challa discussions the future with the children and launches the foundation of the Ultimates places them precisely in the vacuum left by the Fantastic Four in the publication schedule.

Given how this new structure will shape video games, apps, movies, cartoons, and life-action dramas, it is hard to imagine T'Challa's immediate future reflecting any of the lapses in his coverage and development over the last three decades. The Black Panther is now filling the role that Ultimate Nick Fury had for Earth; T'Challa's purview, however, is wider - the solar system, perhaps the base Marvel Universe, if not the entire new Multiverse that Reed, Franklin, and Owen create.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on January 17, 2016, 04:41:04 am

part 2.

After re-reading the end of SW9, there is a sweeping and astonishing conclusion that Hickman built into the structure of the emerging narrative. Sankofa - the simultaneous vision backwards and forwards while in flight. For Hickman, this realization was the goal of the entire closing narrative of the former Marvel multiverse. The immediate impact is the end of the Richards/Doom binary that shaped the last fifty years of storytelling. Yet, as Richards states, this insight is just a seed. How the tree will grow is beyond all of our control. All that any of us can do is our small part in nurturing an open creativity (kuumba) for those who follow us.

The makers used the careful analysis of oral history to decode the next evolutionary path of humanity through their blood. Their vision and work will shape the parameters of the Prime Earth's narrative growth - or, at least, Hickman hopes so. The story of Wakanda's future is the path that humanity will follow. The ideal Africa has become the paragon template for Marvel's Prime Earth. Someone on these boards wrote awhile ago that T'Challa should, in fact, be the fictional planet's iconic human being. It was a note that appeared in the 2012 Black Panther film. Now, it has been placed in the foundation of the new Marvel multiverse - not just for T'Challa, but for Wakanda as a whole community.

Reed's closing humility about the importance of interdependence ("I had some help.") brings a humility and sense of linguistic flexibility (indicative of nomo or ma'at) that defies the existing tropes of comic book heroism. Thus, the explanation to Franklin about the new roles that they must explore, and, not inconsequentially, Doom's symbolic redemption in the final images.

It is, in short, a paradigm shift towards a holistic sense of human possibility, grounded in east and west African traditions of knowledge and language. Future writers may fail to pick up the breadcrumbs, but the work of advancing new narratives for the twenty-first century remain in our hands. We are the makers that we wish to empower.

Beyond the immediate and reflexive criticism of Hickman's narrative failings, our most promising responses are the creation of new works that rise to our standards and inspire larger audiences.

#dignitydivinity
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: True Father 7 on January 23, 2016, 05:22:58 pm
just finished watching this vid I'm attaching that nailed it. It is amazing how so much Hickman wrote came full circle with that ending in Wakanda. Made me want to read those FF, Avengers and New Avengers stories all over again. It is just amazing what he did. Secret Wars 9 one of the best comics I have read ever, wow. FF has always been my fav team in comics, Panther my fav comic character and Doom my fav villain so this series delievered on all fronts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 26, 2016, 08:02:09 pm
just finished watching this vid I'm attaching that nailed it. It is amazing how so much Hickman wrote came full circle with that ending in Wakanda. Made me want to read those FF, Avengers and New Avengers stories all over again. It is just amazing what he did. Secret Wars 9 one of the best comics I have read ever, wow. FF has always been my fav team in comics, Panther my fav comic character and Doom my fav villain so this series delievered on all fronts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI)

I read that SW9 several times. Got it a week or so after it came out.

It gets BETTER with each reading, as I pick up some subtle stuff that I missed last time around. And what Hickman did...despite the naysayers...keeps getting more and more amazing every time. Of course, Hickman didn't do what any of us would have done. But that's because he's NOT us. What he did do, however? Smashed, overall. The wrap up is crazy.

I'm also looking at some points that I still don't like. I will not ever rock with the pic of TChalla cryin like a chump. Buuut. Seems like Shuri is alive. Why? Because Shuri was alive when TChalla rolled with the "future of Wakanda".

Still though. An incredible, incredible. Unprecedented. Ride. And TChalla got his throwdown on with Doom and...I never thought I'd say this...he held his own better against GOD DOOM than regular TChalla did against Doom. With our invincible RH writing him. TChalla pulled a RH+PRIEST move. Hard and in your face uncompromising like RH. TChalla faced DOOM with The Infinity Gauntlet, knowing that the power of the Gauntlet was insufficient to best Doom, and yet still managed to hurt Doom and stretch omnipotent Doom more than anyone there could have done.

 And the PRIEST move? Remember when Priest replied to a Batman vs TChalla query by saying:"TChalla would let Batman win...so he could get what he REALLY wanted." Or words to that effect?

The way TChalla turned Doom's own words back on him. "...REEKS of machination..." gorgeous.

Now. Lemme look at this video link that you provided for us, True Father 7.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 26, 2016, 08:33:17 pm

part 2.

After re-reading the end of SW9, there is a sweeping and astonishing conclusion that Hickman built into the structure of the emerging narrative. Sankofa - the simultaneous vision backwards and forwards while in flight. For Hickman, this realization was the goal of the entire closing narrative of the former Marvel multiverse. The immediate impact is the end of the Richards/Doom binary that shaped the last fifty years of storytelling. Yet, as Richards states, this insight is just a seed. How the tree will grow is beyond all of our control. All that any of us can do is our small part in nurturing an open creativity (kuumba) for those who follow us.

The makers used the careful analysis of oral history to decode the next evolutionary path of humanity through their blood. Their vision and work will shape the parameters of the Prime Earth's narrative growth - or, at least, Hickman hopes so. The story of Wakanda's future is the path that humanity will follow. The ideal Africa has become the paragon template for Marvel's Prime Earth. Someone on these boards wrote awhile ago that T'Challa should, in fact, be the fictional planet's iconic human being. It was a note that appeared in the 2012 Black Panther film. Now, it has been placed in the foundation of the new Marvel multiverse - not just for T'Challa, but for Wakanda as a whole community.

Reed's closing humility about the importance of interdependence ("I had some help.") brings a humility and sense of linguistic flexibility (indicative of nomo or ma'at) that defies the existing tropes of comic book heroism. Thus, the explanation to Franklin about the new roles that they must explore, and, not inconsequentially, Doom's symbolic redemption in the final images.

It is, in short, a paradigm shift towards a holistic sense of human possibility, grounded in east and west African traditions of knowledge and language. Future writers may fail to pick up the breadcrumbs, but the work of advancing new narratives for the twenty-first century remain in our hands. We are the makers that we wish to empower.

Beyond the immediate and reflexive criticism of Hickman's narrative failings, our most promising responses are the creation of new works that rise to our standards and inspire larger audiences.

#dignitydivinity



Both parts of this post above are dead on target. Good job, brother Metro. I will definitely reply more in depth when I get time, but I want you to know that I read and appreciated each and every letter in your two posts.

Aaaannnd. Seems like TChalla DID redeem EVERYTHING about himself with that last issue. Oh yeah. None of the stuff we disliked got to trump who and what TChalla is because in the end he used the Time Gem combined with Owen Reece's enormous power to time travel and rectify all of the mistakes and struggles they were going to face. Before those problems truly arose. And establish Wakanda as the leading power of the world [ or at the very least in tandem with the rest of the world combined...and Wakanda is still ahead of them ].

In this issue, Hickman masterstroke'd all the things we liked and nuked all the things we disliked. He truly made each of these heroes "go beyond themselves" while simultaneously setting up something All New, All Different...and All Better. He redeemed TChalla and set TChalla in a place better than he has been at any other point under any other author in the history of the character. This is much better than me winning the "bet" with my brother HEFfas here. This is...The Black Panther as he should be.

NEHISI has an incredible sendoff for TChalla. Hickman's epic which of course places TChalla in the position he needs to be to start THE ULTIMATES. And ALPHA FLIGHT. And. Other dope stuff. Al Ewing, who is writing the hell out of TChalla AND the much underused overlooked undervalued Adam Brashear. Let's not forget? In STRANGE's solo...which is a very good read...we have DOCTOR Voodoo back. RH's supporting cast of Black male superheroes and all but one of the Black female superheroes are all here. On deck. Rockin.

Now. Brother Coates. Please let us know that Shuri is alive and well in your book.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: True Father 7 on January 27, 2016, 05:12:09 am
just finished watching this vid I'm attaching that nailed it. It is amazing how so much Hickman wrote came full circle with that ending in Wakanda. Made me want to read those FF, Avengers and New Avengers stories all over again. It is just amazing what he did. Secret Wars 9 one of the best comics I have read ever, wow. FF has always been my fav team in comics, Panther my fav comic character and Doom my fav villain so this series delievered on all fronts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8SoQ32iIVI)

I read that SW9 several times. Got it a week or so after it came out.

It gets BETTER with each reading, as I pick up some subtle stuff that I missed last time around. And what Hickman did...despite the naysayers...keeps getting more and more amazing every time. Of course, Hickman didn't do what any of us would have done. But that's because he's NOT us. What he did do, however? Smashed, overall. The wrap up is crazy.

I'm also looking at some points that I still don't like. I will not ever rock with the pic of TChalla cryin like a chump. Buuut. Seems like Shuri is alive. Why? Because Shuri was alive when TChalla rolled with the "future of Wakanda".

Still though. An incredible, incredible. Unprecedented. Ride. And TChalla got his throwdown on with Doom and...I never thought I'd say this...he held his own better against GOD DOOM than regular TChalla did against Doom. With our invincible RH writing him. TChalla pulled a RH+PRIEST move. Hard and in your face uncompromising like RH. TChalla faced DOOM with The Infinity Gauntlet, knowing that the power of the Gauntlet was insufficient to best Doom, and yet still managed to hurt Doom and stretch omnipotent Doom more than anyone there could have done.

 And the PRIEST move? Remember when Priest replied to a Batman vs TChalla query by saying:"TChalla would let Batman win...so he could get what he REALLY wanted." Or words to that effect?

The way TChalla turned Doom's own words back on him. "...REEKS of machination..." gorgeous.

Now. Lemme look at this video link that you provided for us, True Father 7.

I just need to get the tpb because I'm tired of taking it out of it's protective sleave to reread which I will need to do again because somehow I missed T'challa crying but yeah mean this joint was a 10 out of 10 for me
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on January 27, 2016, 12:53:38 pm
A dungpile is still a dungpile regardless of how much gold paint you throw on it.

T'Challa gets beaten like a government mule and is left torn and bloodied at Doom's feet, but just because he delays Doom long enough to give Reed the chance to hook up with the molecule Man this is cause for the usual gushing Hickman praise from some?

Hilarious and sad all at the same time.


(http://i64.tinypic.com/10wvcbp.jpg)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/zlui6e.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 28, 2016, 10:08:23 am
A dungpile is still a dungpile regardless of how much gold paint you throw on it.

T'Challa gets beaten like a government mule and is left torn and bloodied at Doom's feet, but just because he delays Doom long enough to give Reed the chance to hook up with the molecule Man this is cause for the usual gushing Hickman praise from some?

Hilarious and sad all at the same time.


([url]http://i64.tinypic.com/10wvcbp.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i65.tinypic.com/zlui6e.jpg[/url])


Disagree.


Doom was set up so that NOBODY could physically defeat him outside of Molecule Man or someone/thing of that stature. Let us not forget that even on a even footing, DOOM WAS KILLING REED RICHARDS UNTIL MM STEPPED IN. TWICE.

TChalla did better against the impossible than anyone else at any previous time [ remember TChalla allegedly falling and breaking his neck right out the gate during Age of Apocalypse or some ridiculous story ? ], and that includes Thanos and Dr. Strange. Nobody tasked DOOM except for TChalla...and he did so in PRIEST fashion, on top of that. TChalla knew that he wouldn't beat DOOM in a Powers vs Powers on DOOM's Battleworld. This was a given if we understood all the work that Hickman had DOOM do beforehand.

What TChalla did...carving out a bit of the impossible against the omnipotent DOOM...was not only even in Doom's words, "...task" Doom and hurt Doom...he already had Doom undone with his horizon to horizon armies engaging in battle. Doom knew it was TChalla's work, and Doom acknowledged that it "...reeks of machination..."

This is Hickman channeling Priest. DOOM was beaten before the battle started. By TChalla. And Reed. T'Challa not only hurt and delayed Doom the way absolutely literally nobody else could [ the same Doom that off-handedly slaughtered Thanos ], he already had Doom outwitted before the battle started. That is QUINTESSENTIAL TChalla. Right when DOOM thought he had TChalla utterly defeated, humiliated, beaten, prostrate at his feet in the ultimate display of his superiority over TChalla...TChalla really had DOOM beaten. TChalla not only turned Doom's words back on Doom, he played on Doom's hubris. TChalla it was who sent Doom back to Reed by throwing Doom's own words...and a confident Panther smile...back on Doom. Letting Doom know he was getting played, and manipulating Doom exactly the way that TChalla wanted him to be manipulated.

Doom went to destroy Reed. Doom knew that TChalla had The Time Infinity Stone, but Doom also knew that he could return at his leisure and finish the job of killing TChalla after he killed Reed. Or so Doom thought. He had no clue whatsoever of what TChalla would and could do with that Time Gem Infinity Stone.

 TChalla already had Doom beat by OUTSMARTING Doom BEFORE they even fought. This is the ULTIMATE refutation of the idea that Doom is inherently smarter than TChalla. This is the ULTIMATE refutation of all the raggedy hate that TChalla has received over the years. TChalla beat the #1 bad guy in the history of Marvel...when that "bad guy" [ who is more than a little complicated himself ] not only possessed Ultimate Power, but was also killing everyone NOT named TChalla. Killing Reed ON PANEL.

TChalla is the ultimate winner. TChalla wins, even when it appeared that TChalla lost.

This is QUINTESSENTIAL TChalla, I say again.

Look no further than SW9 for the ULTIMATE expression of BP uberprep. Look no further than SW9 for the ULTIMATE expression of BP superiority and ALL the good things we love about TChalla. This man really wins even when he "LOSES". That's something that not even Captain America or anyone else in the history of Marvel. Literally. Has proven on THIS grand of a scale.

That, I must emphasize, is a trademark PRIEST move. Again. This is QUINTESSENTIAL Priest BP. It is.

We see...in a master stroke of genius...that TChalla had everything wired so cold that when the Molecule Man unleashed his gargantuan power, TChalla--instead of being at the mercy of such power, as Reed and The Maker were--used The Time Infinity Stone to ride and manipulate that power right back to the very moment of the very first issue of New Avengers wherein he rectifies his wrong. He saves the future of Wakanda [ MAKERS ], the future of Earth, the future of the multiverse, by saving The Makers [  I gotta say, as a man chasing his ph.d. in Afrikan Studies, that I gotta give Hickman props for making reference to Sundiata Keita, with his comment regarding "The Sundiata Code" ] and launching Wakanda into an ALPHA FLIGHT initiative. He learns from his disagreements with Shuri, with Namor, with Reed...and crafts a plan better than all of their previous plans combined. He shows his uberprep by pulling [ with Reed ] the greatest single uberprep move literally in Marvel publication history.

There is a reason that TChalla and Reed created a plan wherein TChalla is sent back. Not Reed. And that reason is? TChalla is still the guy who was/is the moral compass of The Illuminati. In addition to being literally the only supergenius superwarrior superking blend of The Illuminati? He's still the "purest" driving force behind them. TChalla...unlike all of the rest of them...was NOT corrupted. Even by The Inversion. He is the one who, therefore, is the most worthy to return [ having never been killed ] to monitor Earth and the multiverse directly.

So. Why wasn't TChalla overseeing the formulation of the universe, and Reed is? The biggest most glamorous job was given to Reed.

That is exactly how I would have written it. Because that takes into consideration who both characters are, and it says MORE for TChalla than it does for Reed.

Why do I say that? Because. To be frank. To keep it 100. TChalla could have done what Reed did. Reed COULD NOT have done what TChalla did.

Reed IS NOT the warrior that TChalla is, therefore Doom would have beaten Reed more quickly than he defeated TChalla [ as evidenced in their battle even when placed on equivalent "footing" when Owen Reece removed the unfair advantage that Doom had against Reed...and Doom was still literally killing Reed before MM showed up to save Reed ]. Reed could not have bought TChalla the time to do with MM and Sue what Reed did when he was there. But TChalla could buy Reed that time.

 Also, TChalla is smart enough NOT to trust The Maker being anywhere near Doom when Doom is flinging about God Doom Powers. The Maker is highly likely to steal such energies for his own perverse plans.

TChalla showed here...and only TChalla showed here...that were they on equal footing? If Doom hadn't been possessed of the God Doom Power? TChalla would have killed Doom outright in a throwdown. Why do I say that? Because Reed the nonwarrior used his knowledge against Doom to stretch Doom pretty far,and get Doom to admit in the presence of Owen Reece that he is NOT the correct answer to this destroyed universe problem. Whereas TChalla...using an Infinity Gauntlet that all knew was not sufficient to defeat God Doom...fared much better in direct combat with Victor.

On equal footing? TChalla would have beaten Doom. Doom...regardless of his powers, his supergenius...is no Black Dwarf in battle. TChalla beat Black Dwarf. TChalla would have beaten Doom.

Nobody else has shown that combination of abilities. Nobody.

There is so much that is right here. There is so much that literally trumps what literally any other character in the history of Marvel has ever done, here. Some of us need to know when to accept YES as an answer, and not let our disagreement with other important but ultimately clearly lesser things and disappointment with important but ultimately clearly lesser things overwhelm the greatness of the ending of this story. And the greatness blooming for TChalla.

For the first time post RH, it's a good time to be TChalla in Marvel.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 28, 2016, 10:34:35 am
A dungpile is still a dungpile regardless of how much gold paint you throw on it.

T'Challa gets beaten like a government mule and is left torn and bloodied at Doom's feet, but just because he delays Doom long enough to give Reed the chance to hook up with the molecule Man this is cause for the usual gushing Hickman praise from some?

Hilarious and sad all at the same time.


(http://i64.tinypic.com/10wvcbp.jpg)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/zlui6e.jpg)


Disagree.


Doom was set up so that NOBODY could physically defeat him outside of Molecule Man or someone/thing of that stature. Let us not forget that even on a even footing, DOOM WAS KILLING REED RICHARDS UNTIL MM STEPPED IN. TWICE.

TChalla did better against the impossible than anyone else at any previous time [ remember TChalla allegedly falling and breaking his neck right out the gate during Age of Apocalypse or some ridiculous story ? ], and that includes Thanos and Dr. Strange. Nobody tasked DOOM except for TChalla...and he did so in PRIEST fashion, on top of that. TChalla knew that he wouldn't beat DOOM in a Powers vs Powers on DOOM's Battleworld. This was a given if we understood all the work that Hickman had DOOM do beforehand.

What TChalla did...carving out a bit of the impossible against the omnipotent DOOM...was not only even in Doom's words, "...task" Doom and hurt Doom...he already had Doom undone with his horizon to horizon armies engaging in battle. Doom knew it was TChalla's work, and Doom acknowledged that it "...reeks of machination..."

This is Hickman channeling Priest. DOOM was beaten before the battle started. By TChalla. And Reed. T'Challa not only hurt and delayed Doom the way absolutely literally nobody else could [ the same Doom that off-handedly slaughtered Thanos ], he already had Doom outwitted before the battle started. That is QUINTESSENTIAL TChalla. Right when DOOM thought he had TChalla utterly defeated, humiliated, beaten, prostrate at his feet in the ultimate display of his superiority over TChalla...TChalla really had DOOM beaten. TChalla not only turned Doom's words back on Doom, he played on Doom's hubris. TChalla it was who sent Doom back to Reed by throwing Doom's own words...and a confident Panther smile...back on Doom. Letting Doom know he was getting played, and manipulating Doom exactly the way that TChalla wanted him to be manipulated.

Doom went to destroy Reed. Doom knew that TChalla had The Time Infinity Stone, but Doom also knew that he could return at his leisure and finish the job of killing TChalla after he killed Reed. Or so Doom thought. He had no clue whatsoever of what TChalla would and could do with that Time Gem Infinity Stone.

 TChalla already had Doom beat by OUTSMARTING Doom BEFORE they even fought. This is the ULTIMATE refutation of the idea that Doom is inherently smarter than TChalla. This is the ULTIMATE refutation of all the raggedy hate that TChalla has received over the years. TChalla beat the #1 bad guy in the history of Marvel...when that "bad guy" [ who is more than a little complicated himself ] not only possessed Ultimate Power, but was also killing everyone NOT named TChalla. Killing Reed ON PANEL.

TChalla is the ultimate winner. TChalla wins, even when it appeared that TChalla lost.

This is QUINTESSENTIAL TChalla, I say again.

Look no further than SW9 for the ULTIMATE expression of BP uberprep. Look no further than SW9 for the ULTIMATE expression of BP superiority and ALL the good things we love about TChalla. This man really wins even when he "LOSES". That's something that not even Captain America or anyone else in the history of Marvel. Literally. Has proven on THIS grand of a scale.

That, I must emphasize, is a trademark PRIEST move. Again. This is QUINTESSENTIAL Priest BP. It is.

We see...in a master stroke of genius...that TChalla had everything wired so cold that when the Molecule Man unleashed his gargantuan power, TChalla--instead of being at the mercy of such power, as Reed and The Maker were--used The Time Infinity Stone to ride and manipulate that power right back to the very moment of the very first issue of New Avengers wherein he rectifies his wrong. He saves the future of Wakanda [ MAKERS ], the future of Earth, the future of the multiverse, by saving The Makers [  I gotta say, as a man chasing his ph.d. in Afrikan Studies, that I gotta give Hickman props for making reference to Sundiata Keita, with his comment regarding "The Sundiata Code" ] and launching Wakanda into an ALPHA FLIGHT initiative. He learns from his disagreements with Shuri, with Namor, with Reed...and crafts a plan better than all of their previous plans combined. He shows his uberprep by pulling [ with Reed ] the greatest single uberprep move literally in Marvel publication history.

There is a reason that TChalla and Reed created a plan wherein TChalla is sent back. Not Reed. And that reason is? TChalla is still the guy who was/is the moral compass of The Illuminati. In addition to being literally the only supergenius superwarrior superking blend of The Illuminati? He's still the "purest" driving force behind them. TChalla...unlike all of the rest of them...was NOT corrupted. Even by The Inversion. He is the one who, therefore, is the most worthy to return [ having never been killed ] to monitor Earth and the multiverse directly.

So. Why wasn't TChalla overseeing the formulation of the universe, and Reed is? The biggest most glamorous job was given to Reed.

That is exactly how I would have written it. Because that takes into consideration who both characters are, and it says MORE for TChalla than it does for Reed.

Why do I say that? Because. To be frank. To keep it 100. TChalla could have done what Reed did. Reed COULD NOT have done what TChalla did.

Reed IS NOT the warrior that TChalla is, therefore Doom would have beaten Reed more quickly than he defeated TChalla [ as evidenced in their battle even when placed on equivalent "footing" when Owen Reece removed the unfair advantage that Doom had against Reed...and Doom was still literally killing Reed before MM showed up to save Reed ]. Reed could not have bought TChalla the time to do with MM and Sue what Reed did when he was there. But TChalla could buy Reed that time.

 Also, TChalla is smart enough NOT to trust The Maker being anywhere near Doom when Doom is flinging about God Doom Powers. The Maker is highly likely to steal such energies for his own perverse plans.

TChalla showed here...and only TChalla showed here...that were they on equal footing? If Doom hadn't been possessed of the God Doom Power? TChalla would have killed Doom outright in a throwdown. Why do I say that? Because Reed the nonwarrior used his knowledge against Doom to stretch Doom pretty far,and get Doom to admit in the presence of Owen Reece that he is NOT the correct answer to this destroyed universe problem. Whereas TChalla...using an Infinity Gauntlet that all knew was not sufficient to defeat God Doom...fared much better in direct combat with Victor.

On equal footing? TChalla would have beaten Doom. Doom...regardless of his powers, his supergenius...is no Black Dwarf in battle. TChalla beat Black Dwarf. TChalla would have beaten Doom.

Nobody else has shown that combination of abilities. Nobody.

There is so much that is right here. There is so much that literally trumps what literally any other character in the history of Marvel has ever done, here. Some of us need to know when to accept YES as an answer, and not let our disagreement with other important but ultimately clearly lesser things and disappointment with important but ultimately clearly lesser things overwhelm the greatness of the ending of this story. And the greatness blooming for TChalla.

For the first time post RH, it's a good time to be TChalla in Marvel.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on January 29, 2016, 01:14:39 pm

A dungpile is still a dungpile regardless of how much gold paint you throw on it.

T'Challa gets beaten like a government mule and is left torn and bloodied at Doom's feet, but just because he delays Doom long enough to give Reed the chance to hook up with the molecule Man this is cause for the usual gushing Hickman praise from some?

Hilarious and sad all at the same time.


([url]http://i64.tinypic.com/10wvcbp.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i65.tinypic.com/zlui6e.jpg[/url])


Disagree.


IDGAF!
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 30, 2016, 12:46:15 pm

A dungpile is still a dungpile regardless of how much gold paint you throw on it.

T'Challa gets beaten like a government mule and is left torn and bloodied at Doom's feet, but just because he delays Doom long enough to give Reed the chance to hook up with the molecule Man this is cause for the usual gushing Hickman praise from some?

Hilarious and sad all at the same time.


([url]http://i64.tinypic.com/10wvcbp.jpg[/url])

([url]http://i65.tinypic.com/zlui6e.jpg[/url])


Disagree.


IDGAF!



I didn't ask you to "GAF". It's clear that you don't "GAF". That's your right and opinion. Cool with me. But there is more than one valid way to look at this book, this series, this story.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on January 30, 2016, 01:05:26 pm

I didn't ask you to "GAF". It's clear that you don't "GAF". That's your right and opinion. Cool with me. But there is more than one valid way to look at this book, this series, this story.

To me, there's only one way to look at Hickman's portrayal of T'Challa in New Avengers/SSII.

White Supremacist as all phuck.

End of.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on January 30, 2016, 02:06:10 pm

This conversation would be better in person. Salustrade and Supreme actually talking together - might be better than the conclusion to SW4.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 30, 2016, 05:08:41 pm

I didn't ask you to "GAF". It's clear that you don't "GAF". That's your right and opinion. Cool with me. But there is more than one valid way to look at this book, this series, this story.

To me, there's only one way to look at Hickman's portrayal of T'Challa in New Avengers/SSII.

White Supremacist as all phuck.

End of.


Okay. I understand that. Just disagree.




This conversation would be better in person. Salustrade and Supreme actually talking together - might be better than the conclusion to SW4.


I absolutely agree. Lol all day, man. Well said.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Salustrade on January 30, 2016, 08:38:55 pm

This conversation would be better in person. Salustrade and Supreme actually talking together - might be better than the conclusion to SW4.


(http://i64.tinypic.com/16gk2mo.jpg)
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 31, 2016, 07:41:15 pm

This conversation would be better in person. Salustrade and Supreme actually talking together - might be better than the conclusion to SW4.


([url]http://i64.tinypic.com/16gk2mo.jpg[/url])



Hahahahahahahaha!!
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on February 04, 2016, 11:09:15 am

Does anyone ever speak to the ways Namor represents the American imperialist id?
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Kimoyo on February 04, 2016, 11:53:54 am

Does anyone ever speak to the ways Namor represents the American imperialist id?

Interesting!  I always thought of Namor as somewhat of an anti imperialist, 'I don't care how you screw up your world just keep the hell away from mine,'
not quite xenophobic, but more interested in finger-pointing and defending than leading.

Care to expound Doc?

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: APEXABYSS on February 04, 2016, 01:35:38 pm
I kinda liked it! Reed/FF vs. Doom seemed like the obvious conclusion. They have history. Doom vs. BP/ Wakanda got history too. Problem is- BP just always looks weak & unprepared.

King Of The Dead- ties to the BP ancestors- Infinity Gauntlet- superior intelligence-
 
Hickman breaks it down on some real levels. This means he knows whats up. God Doom but not Panther God? Why do yall think I call Tchalla- TchALLAH?

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5539b16ae4b09e35ffe0d93c/t/56980e9f57eb8d70a2cca4b4/1452805792216/)

If you are waiting for an advanced/ supreme/ real futuristic/ god or demi-god Straight Outta Wakanda...
 
The Realist BP can only be found right here on the HEF. Not in comics of today or soon to be comics & films. Im glad I found you.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 04, 2016, 05:14:45 pm
I kinda liked it! Reed/FF vs. Doom seemed like the obvious conclusion. They have history. Doom vs. BP/ Wakanda got history too. Problem is- BP just always looks weak & unprepared.

King Of The Dead- ties to the BP ancestors- Infinity Gauntlet- superior intelligence-
 
Hickman breaks it down on some real levels. This means he knows whats up. God Doom but not Panther God? Why do yall think I call Tchalla- TchALLAH?

([url]http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5539b16ae4b09e35ffe0d93c/t/56980e9f57eb8d70a2cca4b4/1452805792216/[/url])

If you are waiting for an advanced/ supreme/ real futuristic/ god or demi-god Straight Outta Wakanda...
 
The Realist BP can only be found right here on the HEF. Not in comics of today or soon to be comics & films. Im glad I found you.


Exactly. And I am sure that the majority of HEF feels the same about you.


Does anyone ever speak to the ways Namor represents the American imperialist id?


Interesting!  I always thought of Namor as somewhat of an anti imperialist, 'I don't care how you screw up your world just keep the hell away from mine,'
not quite xenophobic, but more interested in finger-pointing and defending than leading.

Care to expound Doc?

Peace,

Mont


Yes, Doc. Please expound further, this is interesting. I started out with an idea closer to Kimoyo's take on Namor...combined with a strong belief that Namor is highly intelligent, should be using ber tech geared to make him even more formidable than he already, Namor should take full advantage of the legendary resources of Atlantis ( which ironically in real world history ties him closer to Afrika and thus Wakanda and TCHALLA). IMO Namor is overpacked with untapped potential despite his gazillion years in comics, because most of the stories featuring him really typecast him.

As I read more of Hickman's take on him, I saw a combination of past portrayals mixed with a dominant Hickman theme that Namor seemed to be darker if you will than T'Challa. More villainous, yet still noble and even philosophical. More villainous than TChalla, less villainous than Doom...with a contradictory but potent and consistent nobility about him. TCHALLA will do almost anything except something villainous to achieve his ends. Namor will do something villainous, if he perceives the end result to be noble...but IMO he won't go as far as Doom or Thanos would.

That's how I see Namor, foundationally. Other stuff too, but that's the bedrock of the character, IMO.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: KIP LEWIS on February 05, 2016, 04:44:17 am
Atlantis in Marvel is a mixed bag.  It definitely been shown to have higher tech then the majority of the surface world, yet at the same time, it is a scattered people.  Since WW2, they have been bombed, scattered, lost, in exile, "frozen in sleep", constant internal struggles for leadership, destroyed, etc. 

Stuff like that tends to make for an unstable base to amplify Namor's power.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: supreme illuminati on February 11, 2016, 01:34:37 am
Atlantis in Marvel is a mixed bag.  It definitely been shown to have higher tech then the majority of the surface world, yet at the same time, it is a scattered people.  Since WW2, they have been bombed, scattered, lost, in exile, "frozen in sleep", constant internal struggles for leadership, destroyed, etc. 

Stuff like that tends to make for an unstable base to amplify Namor's power.

Those are all solid points you make above, Brother Kip. And. These are the very things that needs to be addressed, in order for Namor the Sub-Mariner to get his props.

I wouldn't change a single thing from any of his past stories, but instead roll them all together and address them as a whole. The exact same way that I did with TChalla's uneven depictions. Namor would be presented as being extremely formidable without disrespecting or ignoring any of the previous canon.

On. The other hand.

If Doc Metro rolls thru and peels back some facts that show Namor to be the metaphor for not so undercover American imperialism? Yeah I'm changing lots of things in Namor's past.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on February 12, 2016, 09:19:01 am
Interesting!  I always thought of Namor as somewhat of an anti imperialist, 'I don't care how you screw up your world just keep the hell away from mine,'
not quite xenophobic, but more interested in finger-pointing and defending than leading.

Care to expound Doc?

Peace,

Mont

I was looking at the quote where he taunts T'Challa and it reminded me of Klaw in many ways. From there, I thought back to Namor's origins as part of the World War 2 mythology in the US. Where Captain America represented a sense of idealism, Namor was always on a harder edge - especially with claims to his dominion over all of the seas.

My first exposure to the character was his role in the Stern (??) Avengers alongside Hercules and Captain Marvel. His signature line, and general arrogance, always made me dislike his presentation and, especially, the deference so many writers gave him. I later read other appearances in the Defenders and eventually came across his constant attempts to seduce Sue Storm away from Reed Richards.

The overall combination of his aggressiveness, self-serving isolation, and arrogance based on his physical strength made me wonder why he hadn't destroyed other places in the ways he assailed Wakanda throughout his history.

As a literary figure, Namor seemed to represent the dark insecurity of the American men who wrote him. He was their darkness given a noble veneer. Just as politicians cloaked national expansion under the facade of democracy and freedom against the Soviet Union, Namor's "rugged individualism" was a thin coating over his desire for unchecked authority.

The statements about killing millions of Wakandans merely took the surface nobility away, revealing the depraved nature of the character that the Phoenix simply animated.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Kimoyo on February 13, 2016, 05:28:17 pm
The overall combination of his aggressiveness, self-serving isolation, and arrogance based on his physical strength made me wonder why he hadn't destroyed other places in the ways he assailed Wakanda throughout his history.

As a literary figure, Namor seemed to represent the dark insecurity of the American men who wrote him. He was their darkness given a noble veneer. Just as politicians cloaked national expansion under the facade of democracy and freedom against the Soviet Union, Namor's "rugged individualism" was a thin coating over his desire for unchecked authority.

I think your observations are on the money and in my mind, indicative of the uneven characterization of Namor over the years seemingly more dependent on writer whim than any firm editorial vision for Namor's place in the Marvel U.  He's been hero and villian, monarch and ostracized ex-patriot, rakish adventure and noble defender.  Throughout all, IMO, he demanded unchecked authority more than he desired it.  That as I see it has been the most consistent aspect of his character.  That however is not inconsistent with your analogy, in fact it may make your point more forcefully?

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Metro on February 19, 2016, 02:58:54 pm
Throughout all, IMO, he demanded unchecked authority more than he desired it.  That as I see it has been the most consistent aspect of his character.  That however is not inconsistent with your analogy, in fact it may make your point more forcefully?

The tension between his demands and desires is a point very well taken. It reminds me of Fredrickson and Roediger's accounts of white paternalism - the demand for omnipotence, but the ambivalence and insecurity in the face of its prospective achievement. Those qualities have become the hallmarks of Doom as a character, but the recent versions of Namor also reveal it.

The crisis of masculinity exposed. Maybe he will join the presidential primaries.
Title: Re: Secret Wars
Post by: Kimoyo on February 23, 2016, 09:23:06 pm
The crisis of masculinity exposed. Maybe he will join the presidential primaries.

Ha ha!  Who's that, Doom or Namor the Headless Sub-Mariner?  Make way for the autocrats and the new Totalitarian Party!

Peace,

Mont