Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Show Bizness => Latest Flicks => Topic started by: Emperorjones on December 19, 2015, 08:35:53 am

Title: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 19, 2015, 08:35:53 am
Okay, here is the granddaddy of 2015 movies, the one that millions-billions?-have been waiting for. I checked it out yesterday. I went early in the morning and that theater was too full. Next showing though wasn't that bad though. So if you are worried about sold out shows, I guess it might depend on where you're at (I'm in Northern Virginia) you probably can-hopefully-get in somewhere without having to deal with a ton of crowds.

My thoughts on the film (and there will be spoilers and my spoiler tags might not get them all) are as follows. I thought the film was good, well paced, full of action, likeable characters, but I don't think its the greatest Star Wars film ever, I don't think its even better than most of the prequel films, with the exception of The Phantom Menace. How I rank the films-right now and that might be subject to change if/when I watch TFA again or the rest of the saga again.

Favorites
1. The Return of the Jedi
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. The Revenge of the Sith
4. Attack of the Clones
5. A New Hope
6. The Force Awakens
7. The Phantom Menace

Best
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. The Return of the Jedi
3. The Revenge of the Sith
4. A New Hope
5. Attack of the Clones
6. The Force Awakens
7. The Phantom Menace

You know, I'm not sure where I should place A New Hope. As a kid I loved this film, but the last time I watched it really it was boring in places. Though I do think the lightsaber duel between Obi Wan and Vader, while lacking prequel or even ROTJ acrobatics had an emotional resonance and weight to it that was better than the overlong and overhyped The Duel in ROTS.

I'm still working my way through my feelings over The Force Awakens. Full disclosure, I was a fan of the often benighted and now decanonized Star Wars expanded universe. The novels and comics laid out a post-ROTJ future for the characters that I liked in many respects. So that's in the back of my mind as I consider TFA and trying to see if they did as good a job or better than what came before. I can't say they did. I feel that the EU took more chances storywise and presented better villains. But I digress...

I'm struggling with how I want to express my thoughts so I'll try to break it down like this:

The Good:

-Production values. Top notch. I wasn't going gaga over practical effects vs. green screen but still the movie looked pretty good.
-Cast: Throughout the cast was entertaining and to me John Boyega had a definite enthusiasm that radiated from his character. It was also great seeing Carrie Fisher, Harrison Ford, and some other familiar faces.
-Action: I thought the space combat scenes were handled well and the lightsaber combat. Nothing I felt spectacular but nothing I hated either.
-Characters: I liked the characters for the most part, particularly the hero characters. Though I think more so for the acting than a lot of the characters themselves.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I thought Daisy Ridley's Rey and John Boyega's Finn had some good chemistry. They clicked. And their banter evoked, which I'm sure was the intent, the classic Han and Leia banter. It will be interesting to see if their friendship blossoms into anything more. Oscar Isaac's Dameron started out the film but sat most of it out, however I thought he had Boyega had chemistry too. I wonder if down the line there might not be a triangle that develops between Dameron, Rey, and Finn? Though I don't recall Dameron and Rey sharing any scenes in TFA the story is just beginning. It was great seeing Han and Leia again. They didn't get as many scenes together as I think they needed to, but they did the most with what little they had. And it was great seeing Chewbacca, Threepio, and R2D2-who also didn't get much screen time again as well.
-Diversity: It was cool seeing women behind some of the screens for the First Order and also I think there was at least one female Stormtrooper, not counting Captain Phasma. There was also some diversity among the Resistance, with an Asian general and an Asian X-Wing pilot. Also a black X-Wing pilot. And of course the three major leads are a white woman, a black guy, and a Latino guy.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
And you have Leia as the leading general (I'm assuming of the Resistance).

The Meh:
-The story.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I felt it was too derivative of A New Hope. It followed it a bit too closely. I wanted something newer, a bit fresher. Here it was Abrams playing in cherished sandbox, reliving A New Hope instead of adding something new to the saga.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Abrams just decided to make things supersize. I mean the Death Star could destroy one planet at a time while Abrams's Starkiller Base can destroy multiple planets. Even his Star Destroyers might be bigger than the originals.
The prequels get hate, and in many respects rightfully so, but at least Lucas was trying to tell a new or different story. The prequels felt  more grand in scope than what we've been presented with so far in The Force Awakens. The prequels told a story about the fall of democracy, the rise of a dictatorship, and the personal, accompanying story of the corruption and fall of a hero.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Perhaps TFA is attempting to invert that regarding Kylo Ren's story, but so much just feels like a shadow of what came before. The First Order is powerful but isn't as powerful as the Empire. Kylo Ren is powerful but isn't as powerful as Vader or any other live-action Sith Lord, etc.

What I didn't like:

-Finn: Okay, I know this might look confusing or hypocritical but let me explain. I think they at times made Finn the comic relief too much.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They also made him a bit cowardly or he played things a bit too broadly. As a black guy who loves sci-fi and always is mindful of how black characters are portrayed there are pluses and minuses here with Finn. When I look at Star Wars alone in how black men are portrayed I think it's a step forward and backward for Finn. Forward is he's part of a new troika and might have a romance with Rey and become the predominant couple of the new saga and maybe turn out more successful than Han and Leia did. Negatives. When compared to Lando who betrayed Han, but for a good reason, and led the second successful attack on the Death Star and then Mace Windu, one of the greatest swordsman ever who took out Jango Fett like it was nothing and had Palpatine on his back (though I did think Palpatine threw that fight to sway Anakin over to his side), but at least Mace was right about not trusting Anakin all along, Finn is the lesser of those characters. Finn gets way more screen time though. Though compared to black women black men are killing it in Star Wars. I mean black actresses are mostly background characters and generally are playing alien characters. Sure there were several black female Jedi (Luminara Unduli, Stass Allie, and Adi Gallia), but none had any speaking roles in the live-action films. Unduli and Gallia did play a role in the canon Clone Wars cartoon. There was a Jedi Master Salmara from Darth Maul: Death Sentence that I wish was canon. I thought she was cool, but I digress...

What bothers me is that we learn he is a programmed soldier taken from birth or at least early on so he doesn't know his parents (child soldier or slave essentially), he doesn't have a name until Dameron gives him one, he runs from Rey and is taken down by her. If he's a programmed soldier where is his discipline or military bearing? He later reveals he works in sanitation but when we first see him he's a Stormtrooper. So do Stormtroopers also have side jobs? A large part of his character arc is he wants to run away, but his friendship for Rey convinces him to work with the Resistance to rescue her. So he's risking his life to protect a white woman-something we've seen black male characters do before. I know some might feel that race plays no part or that it's transracial or interracial and transcends race and all of that, but I don't see black males loving or putting their lives on the line for black females much, if at all, in our movies. If race doesn't matter why can't we see more of that? The positives are that Finn has the potential to be a great character. We have yet to learn who his parents are, or what role he will play in the Resistance. He did show bravery about going back to the First Order to rescue Rey and he held his own-for a little while-in lightsaber combat against Kylo Ren. So it's not all bad. Plus Boyega seems like he's having fun and it's infectious.

-Rey: Okay, you're probably thinking, well I said I liked the characters. I did, but that doesn't mean I didn't have some criticisms.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think Rey is dangerously close to Mary Sue territory. With little or no experience she successfully flies the Millennium Falcon, escaping trained TIE fighter pilots. She's so good that Han Solo offers her a job. To be fair, Finn also becomes pretty proficient with firing the cannons both on a TIE fighter and then the Falcon with no experience. And later on, while captured, she just does a Jedi Mind Trick, without any foreknowledge-of what we can tell. She later defeats Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel and its her first lightsaber fight-that we know of. I think Abrams did at least showing her wielding her staff pretty well early on. Still I think they were pushing things a bit too much. I liked Ridley as an actress so I'm almost willing to let it slide. Also its cool that the new trilogy's lead character, the Savior/Chosen One is a female, but still even Anakin and Luke had to go through some training with a lightsaber beforehand.

-Classic characters: Not a knock against them per se, but how Abrams decided to take their stories.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
They are weathered and beaten down. It was more grim than I would imagine. Han and Leia are separated, we don't know if they even got married, Luke is in exile. Basically Han and Luke ran away leaving Leia to continue the fight or to find a new one. To be fair, Obi Wan and Yoda also ran away but the prequels showed us what they up against. Still it just felt sort of downbeat that this is the future that awaits our old friends after the joyous celebration on Endor.

-Villains: For the most part all the villains were let downs.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) was this towering hologram with less than stellar rendered CGI. An he wasn't a well designed or distinctive alien. He didn't do much but issue orders from on high. We learn that he brought Kylo Ren over to the dark side. Before that, Ren was a student of Luke's. I thought they made the hologram too big. It looked ridiculous. Kylo Ren starts out interesting. He has a cool look, shows a nifty ability to stop a blaster bolt, but ultimately is a wannabe Vader. The son of Han and Leia (shades of the EU's Jacen Solo), Ben Solo turned to the dark side. One neat thing about him is that it's the light side that's calling or pulling to him, an opposite of what we've seen before. That being said, he turned out not to be that impressive. He throws tantrums and got upstaged by people who zero lightsaber experience. He was cut by both Finn and Rey. While he might be an interesting character study I wanted a more threatening villain. Maul, Vader, they were threatening and formidable, Ren starts out that way but underneath the mask he's something else. A nice inversion but doesn't make for thrilling viewing, watching a villain you can beat so relatively easily. Toward the end Snoke says he must complete Ren's training. I'm like, why hadn't he did that already? Ren will go down in infamy for killing Han Solo though. However I can't say it made him that much of a bad ass due to how that came about and since he was beaten by Rey afterward. General Hux was a clone of Tarkin. Albeit he's very young so you wonder how the hell he got that position? And comparisons have been made between Captain Phasma and Boba Fett. Hux or Phasma didn't get much screen time and Phasma got the short end of the stick, being overtaken by Finn, Han, and Chewie. She didn't even put up a fight.
-Coincidence: Things happened way too much by coincidence or happenstance in this film. You can say its the Will or Way of the Force but you could also say it was lazy writing or just aw-f**k it-they'll eat it up anyway.
-Not enough exposition: Yes I know that sounds crazy, but I wish more had been explained or Disney had done a better job with their multimedia efforts of laying the groundwork for this new era in Star Wars. A lot was left unsaid or left for the audience to puzzle over I guess, more than I think needed to be. Perhaps they are saving some for future films, or maybe other multimedia but I hope they do address some of it at least.

I wasn't observant enough to catch EU references, though they did mention the clones once, and I guess prequel fans can take heart at that.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I do think though that Jacen Solo and Ben Solo/Kylo Ren had a similar story. In the EU Jacen Solo was a Knight, one of Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order, and pretty much his heir. I think at one point Jacen had even become one with the Force. But eventually Jacen falls to the dark side, becomes Darth Caedus, the last of the Rule of Two Sith in the EU. Ben Solo superficially sounds like him. Though with Jacen we got to see him as a hero and then his fall so perhaps it was more tragic. With Ben we see him as a villain and learn of his heritage retroactively. Jacen, while supposedly one of the great duelist of the New Jedi Order, wasn't that great after he became a Sith Lord. Better than Ben Solo, but still both getting their asses handed to them by a female (Jacen's sister Jaina and Rey versus Ben) seem to go in sync as well. I wonder too if Ben Solo might not have been influenced by the EU's Ben Skywalker-the son of Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker? In the EU Jacen wanted Ben to be his apprentice and attempted to bring him over into the dark side but Ben resisted. It makes me wonder why Leia and Han would name their son Ben, as opposed to say Bail?  After her adopted father? I get that for old school Star Wars fans the name Ben evokes Kenobi and good feelings, but within that universe, seems like Leia would care more about Bail than Ben Kenobi.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: mayday on December 19, 2015, 09:26:35 am
Dead on about Finn. Great experience but a huge let down as to what I was expecting. Ho-hum....guess I can say more after everyone has seen the movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 19, 2015, 10:00:40 am
Thanks.

One thing I forgot to mention. I had noticed it while watching the film but another reviewer really brought it home for me regarding Finn.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
He is reluctant and even defiant against killing civilians on Jakku yet he shows no compunction in killing his former colleagues, Stormtroopers.  Granted he was in a lot of life or death situations with them and was attacked by one trooper and called a traitor later on by Ren. But still it seemed a bit odd to me. He was so against killing but then so willing to kill. Was he the only Stormtrooper who had a personality? That wasn't mindlessly following orders? I mean perhaps so. Since Captain Phasma (who seemed to have something of a personality herself) said that Finn was scheduled for reconditioning. Then again, what does that mean? And also we saw the nicely played and funny turn around of the two Stormtroopers to evade Kylo Ren's tantrum. It suggests some personalities and individuality behind the masks. Wouldn't Finn be a bit gun shy about killing maybe some of his former friends or colleagues?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: TripleX on December 20, 2015, 12:17:30 pm
I feel duped, that brotha was every bug eyed, frightened coon there ever was. If this is inclusion, leave me out of it. I would've been fine with Peaches on monitor duty and shots of Julius and them flying X-Wings.

Finn got his name from a white man and then stole his jacket. After that he went white girl crazy, told her a bunch of lies to get her, when he finally did, he left her out in the cold and then went through hell trying to get her back.

I'm exaggerating a little bit, but not a whole lot. I was really disappointed dude was such whack sauce he ended up comatose and about the bait and switch with Luke's lightsaber. I get the symmetry of who you thought was going to be Han and who you thought was going to be Luke, were actually reversed, but overall it didn't sit well with me.

It also pissed me off that I kept waiting on Lupita Nyong'o and she played an unrecognizable shriveled orange peel lady that could have been anybody.

Speaking of anybody, anybody that couldn't tell Rey was dude's sister and Han and Leia's daughter, had to be as slow on the uptake as Finn. That's why she was so good with machinery like Anakin and kept using the force without knowing it.

And what was up with Gene Simmons grandson Kylo Ren? He had a hell of a noggin didn't he? He took that helmet off and I was like "Pleeeeease put your helmet back on". J.J. Abrams could have quit with the close-ups, the movie was already in I-Max 3D, I did not need to get that close to that man's ugly cranium. It was a head of it's time.

Did we really need a third Death Star with an easily exploitable weakness? The First Order and Empire are both slow learners. That was one too many trips down memory lane and it was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'd already tried to overlook the outrageous coincidences that coincided with the first film, like the droid with secrets wanted by the bad guys and the fortuitous way characters kept meeting up, but the super-sized Death Star really took me out of the movie.

All that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, because I did, but it could have been so much better and more original. I walked out angry and wishing the film was based on Timothy Zahn's books, they would have made a superior sequel.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 20, 2015, 02:09:00 pm
Triple X,

My reaction wasn't as strong as yours. I thought it was a good film. But you pretty much get it about Finn. His portrayal was unsatisfying. Almost everyone's raving about this film, completely caught up in the hype of it, that I think its hard for some to look at it with a critical eye. To me there also seems to be a gleeful need to poke Lucas in the eye, to really show him how much his prequels sucked by uplifting this film to the heavens.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
And I think a lot of people are really drawing dividing lines with the character Rey and there's always the hint or charge of sexism around it. But I see Rey as a case of them replacing a super duper white guy with a super duper white female. It is diversity and progression of a sort, I suppose, but when you look at what they did-or didn't do to Finn and how they covered up Lupita, one of the most beautiful women on the planet and as far as I know the only one in the cast to have an Oscar-and if she isn't the only one, perhaps the most recent, I'm not 100% on board with that kind of 'diversity'. And there's a part of me that can't help but wonder if Rey would've  been so standoffish, 'don't grab my hand' if it wasn't Finn attempting to do so? I can see it being a good example for a feminist hero/heroine, a show of independence for the character, but the lizard part of my brain makes me wonder. Will Finn get friend zoned? And is that okay with me? Yeah and no I guess. I want black characters to be romantically and sexually active-in healthy ways-in films, but I frankly would like more intraracial relationships depicted than interracial. I think the trend is interracial and it just reinforces the idea that black- black relationships and sexuality and desirability is not desirable.

As for Kylo Ren yeah he could've kept his mask on. As soon as he took it off the menace started to fade
Spoiler (click to reveal)
and then he went out with a whimper.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
That being said I did see a side-by-side picture of him and Harrison Ford and they do have similar noses.

I'm not sure Rey is Han and Leia's kid. I'm thinking she's Luke's daughter. I mean if she was their kid why didn't they say something?
Though with this film there were a lot of questions left unanswered, confident that there would be sequels and follow up material. Not every film gets that luxury and it's not one I think even Star Wars should take lightly. I do think eventually with the plan to have a Star Wars film every year will eventually dissipate interest in the franchise. Disney is determined to have their cinematic. It might work for a while but I think people will tire of it.

I definitely agree with you about the lack of originality.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The First Order, Resistance, Ren, Snoke, all just came off like pale reflections of stuff that's come before. I wish they had taken more risks and really expanded the story, pushed it forward. But they pretty much just returned to the state of the galaxy in A New Hope without filling out the details of why that was? I mean there is a New Republic now, but how big and powerful are they and why are they funding a Resistance? Can't they put their own Republic ships in the fight? How big and powerful is the First Order? Are there other Imperial factions out there? Obviously the First Order is powerful enough to develop the Starkiller Base. Why did Ben Solo turn against Luke? Who is Snoke? And if Ben/Ren was defeated by Rey and Finn held his own for a moment against him (granted Ren was injured), but still, how did this guy defeat and kill all of Luke's students?

And for a self-confessed fan of the originals and TFA was a very heavy homage to the original films, particularly A New Hope, why did Abrams give the Big Three (Luke, Leia, and Han) such sh*tty post-ROTJ futures? Han and Luke run away. Leia becomes a hardened, or rather weathered general.

I only read the first in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, but yeah I would've liked that story or a variation on it to make it fresh more. I mean you even had Max Von Sydow there to play the crazy Jedi C'boath if they had wanted to go that route. I liked the Yuuzhan Vong stories and would've liked to see them. A different enemy-not Sith-that's outside the Force. I thought they were cool. Or even adaptations of the Legacy of the Force or Fate of the Jedi series.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Though to be fair to TFA there are shades of Legacy of the Force in this film. They might as well called Kylo Ren Jacen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Wise Son on December 21, 2015, 05:45:17 am
I saw it today, and honestly, I hadn't thought about the points people made about Finn's portrayal. I think they're fair, but I also think his character might be difficult to judge, even though the film is over. Now that Star Wars is going to be a biannual thing, it's more like a comic series than a conventional movie, even moreso than movies based on comics, like the MCU. What we just saw was the first issue, not even the complete origin story of these characters. Finn definitely has only a very basic character arc (
Spoiler (click to reveal)
running from the First Order, to facing his fear to rescue his friend
), but if they're keeping him as one of the focal characters, you'd expect (or at least hope) that the further films to come will see him leave behind the wide-eyed, clumsy stage we saw here.
None of that's guaranteed, but I'd at least hope to see him taking a bigger role in the rebellion, and maybe seeing him able to make use of his
Spoiler (click to reveal)
stormtrooper training, now that he's not being ordered to wipe out villages
. There's other good directions they could take him, and obviously bad directions, too, but I am hoping that we see a very different view of him by the close of this trilogy (although it's ongoing, I'm assuming they keep it going in patterns of 3). I couldn't help but like him, maybe because I just really like Boyega.
Also, having only recently rewatched 4-6, I was surprised by how uncool and clownish Han Solo was, compared to the super-cool rogue I always hear him talked about as, and remembered him as. It may be that Finn is intended as a repetition of that type of character, but the racial context (unintentionally?) puts a different spin on it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 21, 2015, 06:09:13 am
7/10

All of the main characters were annoying. I typically judge films based on villains and this guy and his "Skywalker" whining is far worse than Anakin and Luke combined.
Rey was like a video game character with her power up and all of sudden she is Zelda
Finn? LOL
Phasma? LOL

The best character by far is Poe.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 21, 2015, 06:52:07 am
7/10

All of the main characters were annoying. I typically judge films based on villains and this guy and his "Skywalker" whining is far worse than Anakin and Luke combined.
Rey was like a video game character with her power up and all of sudden she is Zelda
Finn? LOL
Phasma? LOL

The best character by far is Poe.

#gotem
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10347813_10153120864156829_4728587483642745357_n.jpg?oh=a63fe44b23be48200383efe7bd9168db&oe=57174271)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 07:24:20 am
Wise Son,

You make some good points about Finn. I mean the jury is out.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
We don't know how the story is going to turn out with him, where it will go. But from just what I saw I have some skepticism. It's hopeful that since he is a main character-one of the new Big Three-we will get a more fleshed out character. Though it could also be the case that Poe-since he was short changed in TFA-will get more focus next time around. I see Rey as being front and center throughout the new saga. It will be interesting to see where they go with Finn. Will he have his own story or will it all revolve around his feelings-so far unrequited for Rey?

I hadn't considered Han clownish ever, but I haven't watched the OT in a long while. And I can see Finn being inspired by Han in some respects.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Maybe that's why they were paired together. And I did like Han's advice to Finn about women.
But as you said, there's a racial context to Finn that Han doesn't have to contend with. So I'm a little leery of jokey, cowardly, black characters since we have a history of that. That being said thankfully that's not all we saw of Finn. He was also brave, compassionate, a risk taker, smart to some extent.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: CKW on December 21, 2015, 09:03:48 am
How old is Rey in this picture?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 11:36:19 am
I would say roughly 19.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rey (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rey)

Be wary of this link there will be spoilers for the film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: CKW on December 21, 2015, 11:42:00 am
The script has her saying and doing annoying things for that age or it could be that the trailers made me think the movie was headed in a certain direction.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 11:44:20 am
What direction would that be?

A New Hope started out with Luke and Leia around 18/19 years old. Arguably Luke could also be seen as annoying. He wasn't too me back then or the last time I watched it. But I can concede people saying he's whiny. Leia was way more self-assured and of course committed to a cause. An in AOTC, I would say Anakin was roughly 18/19 at that time and he also was called whiny, not to mention creepy and then psychopathic. But at the same time it didn't really bother me either.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
With Rey I also have to wonder how much social interaction she had before things kick off in TFA? She seems to be living a mostly solitary existence, on the margins of Jakku.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: CKW on December 21, 2015, 12:33:30 pm
What's the main difference between Rey's motivation in this film and Luke's motivation in the New Hope? That is the reason I thought the movie was headed down that part
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 12:56:10 pm
I haven't watched A New Hope in a long while, but I think that Luke wanted to leave Tatoonine, he wanted more adventure, he felt that something was greater out there for him. And he wanted to join the Imperial Academy if I recall correctly and be a pilot.

Whereas Rey was a scavenger on Tatoonine-like Jakku.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
She had been left there by a guardian/parent (?) and she spent a lot of the film wanting to go back or expressing a desire to go back to Jakku to wait on that guardian to return for her. She also rejected her Force calling at first, while Luke embraced his. Compared also to Anakin, Anakin also wanted to leave Tatoonine and be a Jedi. In a sense Rey's journey started off as inversion of that, but the Force has a way of making things happen I suppose.

There was a scene where Rey put on an old X-Wing pilot's helmet while on Jakku, which could indicate that she had yearnings to pilot or fly, an homage to Anakin and Luke, but she had little to no piloting experience when she and Finn had to take the Millennium Falcon to escape a First Order patrol.

That being said, I think Rey seems more powerful or at least assured in her Force abilities than Luke in A New Hope or Anakin in The Phantom Menace by the end of The Force Awakens.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 21, 2015, 03:25:24 pm
I think Ren is Luke's daughter not Han's.  I think Luke's daughter fits despite the EU version BC Leia and Han wouldn't be so forgiving of "Ben" if they believed he was responsible for their daughter's death.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 03:37:12 pm
Yes. I think that's the case. I mean they made a big deal about Luke's lightsaber (Anakin's lightsaber) belonging to Rey. So it makes more sense for her to be Luke's offspring and not Han's and Leia's.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 21, 2015, 03:43:10 pm
I think I am the only person who saw Finn differently... As a future Jedi.

Two reasons I thought Flynn is Force sensitive:  when Ren looked at him during the slaughter... He was acting like there was something more there and iirc then when the big guy said there was an awaken it was before Ren started to awaken.  I thought he was talking about Flynn.

Second reason... Somewhere I heard in the original or the prequels that only Force people can wield light sabers, even to the point that it takes the Force to turn it on.    Of course the Abrams could be ignoring that.  It would explain how he could last as long as he did against Ren.

I want to read the novelization but haven't found it yet.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2015, 05:51:10 pm
On the Wookieepedia site, which is an authority as far as I'm concerned regarding Star Wars stuff, they say Finn is non-Force sensitive. Also non-Force sensitive people like Han (TESB) and Grevious (ROTS, Clone Wars) have used lightsabers before.

I think the ebook of the novelization is out but the hardcover isn't out until January. I've heard it isn't that detailed about stuff. I did pick up the Visual Dictionary but haven't really delved into it yet. I do recommend checking out Wookieepedia if you haven't before. There's a ton of info on there about various Star Wars characters, planets, species, etc.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Rey is the Jedi and the presumptive chosen one for this saga, and maybe the real Chosen One Anakin was predicted to be. I mean Lucas said that Anakin was the Chosen One (even though Luke being the Chosen One made more sense) but Lucas isn't in charge anymore.  So Disney can do what it wants. And in TFA they already showed that Rey, with little or zero training, seems very powerful in The Force. She's doing stuff that we didn't see Luke do (like Jedi mind tricks and winning a lightsaber duel) until ROTJ already.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 22, 2015, 04:47:36 am
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-star-wars-the-rey-finn-dance-and-a-post-racial-futurepast (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-star-wars-the-rey-finn-dance-and-a-post-racial-futurepast)

Interesting take on Rey and Finn. I agreed with some, but not all of the points made.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Wise Son on December 22, 2015, 05:33:24 am
Emperor,

Good points, and there's so much we just won't know for at least 2 years. From what we did see, I think Rey and Finn are meant to be a double-act. When they were
Spoiler (click to reveal)
geeking out about their first Tie-Fighter fight
, I was beaming. It was just such a sweet and joyful moment, and wouldn't have worked with a different pair of characters. I really want to see how they develop individually and as friends (I'm one of those people who likes platonic relationships - love interests are so predictable in Hollywood movies, and I really liked the way it was avoided in Pacific Rim). For that to work, Finn has to develop and strengthen as much as her, and if they don't do that, I feel they'd be throwing away the potential of a great performance from Boyega, and great chemistry with Ridley.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 22, 2015, 09:53:07 am
Wise Son,

I definitely feel what you're saying. I mean the romance angle can be overdone and predictable, but for a big budget franchise like this it's rare they are going to not be safe, just like TFA told a relatively familiar story, with some new characters (though inspired by older ones to some extent) and a few twists here and there, but still it was familiar territory.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'm torn about a Finn/Rey romance. On the pro-side Finn and Rey have chemistry. The story felt it was moving that way, but Rey was resistant. Now we can chalk that up to many things-on one level there might be a feminist impulse to show Rey as independent, strong, and not wanting to catch feelings like that.
There could also be that desire to be platonic and do something different. However I can't help but look at through a racial lens. And while I think the media is showing more interracial relationships, I can't say we see a lot of black men-white women in sexual relationships.

I haven't seen a black man slob any white woman down like Olivia Pope gets slobbed down for example. Not on the small screen or big screen. I haven't seen Jessica Jones yet so maybe that will happen there. The most I've seen-recently at least-is James Olsen on Supergirl and how he has two white women pining for him. And Diggle on Arrow is married to a white woman. However it seems that the black man-white woman relationship is chaste and the sex is implied but rarely are you going to see a hint of that. To me Denzel, Will Smith when they are opposite white women they generally are not involved in a sexual relationship or one that we get to see much of. Granted there was Smith's Focus, but I don't think that did super great box office wise, which could be an indication of a general reluctance or unease to see black men-white women in a sexual relationship. Even in the sexually charged thriller Obsessed Idris Elba's drugged seduction by Ali Larter is something they fade out on, so you don't know what really happens between them.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
In TFA I saw Finn being way more into Rey than vice versa. He risks his life for her by joining the mission to take out Starkiller Base and he does get a chaste peck on the forehead while he's in a coma.
I sort of reminds me of Star Trek First Contact, where Patrick Stewart and Alfre Woodard just share a kiss on the cheek. That story might have played differently if Woodard's character had been white. That's where the story felt like it was going but then it got detoured.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Since they've had Finn sweating and shucking (a little) and to use Triple X's words, "white girl crazy" already in TFA why not pair him with her? It would be something different that they haven't done or seen in Star Wars before. I don't want him to just get a pat on the head.
Relationships are not a hallmark in Star Wars, but when I think of the canon stuff and also the expanded universe (EU) stuff, most of the relationships (like most of the human characters) are white. And there was this penchant for redheads in the EU that I never got.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'm not expecting a sexual relationship to happen in the new Star Wars films, but I'm okay with it being implied.

Now the opposing view. I did like how things wound up in Pacific Rim, but a part of that was because we see white male characters have sexual agency and license over all women, including women of color and I was glad to see something different.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
As for Rey and Finn they've got a lot of things going on and might not have time for romance to blossom. So far live-action Star Wars hasn't done great in the romance department. The best one developed was Han and Leia and that fell apart by TFA.
As I've written about before, and this might sound hypocritical, but do think there are too many interracial relationships being depicted. It's like the few times they do delve into a black person's romantic or sexual life on television these days their partner isn't black.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So I'm not super hype about a Rey-Finn romance, even it feels organic from what I saw in TFA. And if they aren't going to get together I don't want him to be the one holding the bag. That it's a mutual decision and not a rejection by Rey.

Hopefully to clarify what I'm saying further. I don't think black sexuality and relationships are explored enough in mainstream media. When it is intraracial it feels that it's something that's wallpaper or dysfunctional. And interracial is put on the front burner. But that doesn't mean those are always going to get explored either. However it does feel to me that the black woman-white man relationship is getting more attention.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 23, 2015, 08:39:20 am
Concerning Flynn... This review by pluggedinonline, matched my take away after watching the movie:   "Even though his (Flynn's) thoughts sometimes stray to self-preservation (which makes him a bit more like you and me), he proves time and again that hes no coward. And his bravery helps save, perhaps, a good chunk of the galaxy."

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 23, 2015, 02:38:17 pm
I'm torn about Finn. He does have admirable qualities-brave regarding his friends (Rey) at least and in breaking away from the First Order, has a sense of humor, seems down-to-Earth (or the equivalent in the Star Wars universe), compassionate where the civilians of Jakku were concerned, and I can only imagine that he feels guilt or is haunted by what he's done in service to the First Order in his past. Plus John Boyega has a kind of charm. He's a likeable, fun guy.

And Finn is the first black character (male or female) to be so prominent in the Star Wars universe. Never before have we seen a black face be on so much Star Wars merchandise. Heck, I even have a Finn action figure (though I bought it before the film came out).

So that's a cause for celebration. Yet it also makes me question, why Finn? Why now? On one level there's diversity and the needs/demands of 21st century Hollywood to appear diverse and to appeal to diverse and global audiences. They want as much money, from everyone that they can. And the Fast and Furious films have shown that a multiracial, fun cast in a fun movie equals big bucks. So there's profit but also perhaps a progressive impulse.

Okay, this all sounds good. Now let me put on my other hat....Why Finn? Why this character?

Before I got there let's look at the other two prominent black characters (again both males) in Star Wars: Mace Windu and Lando Calrissian. Finn has it over both because he's a major character while they were both supporting characters, so Finn gets a point for that.

But when you look at Mace, not even counting the now discounted expanded universe (EU) stuff he's one of the best Jedi warriors/masters in the Old Republic. He's wise enough to sit on the Jedi Council (granted this was a Jedi Council increasingly weakened by Darth Sidious and duped by him, but still he was sitting on it). He was a person that met with the Chancellor like it wasn't nothing. He gave orders. He was important in making decisions. He was a leader. In battle he took out Jango Fett, one of the most dangerous bounty hunters in Star Wars universe and he held his ground against Sidious who sliced through like four or five other Jedi Masters before he locked up with Mace. Ultimately even his suspicions about Anakin proved correct and his death was a key turning point in galactic history.

And now Lando. Despite his charm and suaveness, and his shady criminal past, he was running Cloud City and felt a responsibility to protect its denizens, even selling out his old friend Han and the others in the process. It was a betrayal but one for noble reasons. Once he realized Vader wasn't going to make good on the deal and his people were going to be at risk regardless he turned on Vader and became a member of the Rebellion. I don't think he played that important a role in rescuing Han, but at least he was there. He made amends for his mistake. And he became a leading military figure in the Rebellion and led the successful attack on the second Death Star.

Now to Finn...I've read that he's in the Leia role in this new series. I don't agree with that. And I'm not going to get into how I think Hollywood emasculates or feminizes black males. I don't know if that even reaches the level but it is interesting that some see Finn, perhaps need to see Finn in a formerly female role.

Anyway, Leia started out in A New Hope as an Imperial Senator and a Rebel leader. Her important positions and leadership abilities were there from jump. She wasn't the butt of jokes or made many, but there was some humor in her back-and-forth with Han. It took the second movie for her to soften and admit her love to Han and only because she thought she might never see him again (granted Finn hasn't said the love word yet but he's on Rey's jock seriously, going back into his Hell to rescue her). One thing all three characters do have in common are they are all sexless. There's an excuse for Mace. I don't know if the First Order regulates sex or not, but we do see Rey not giving Finn any time. And Lando didn't get Leia, though she probably wanted to.

To me Finn is more like Chewbacca. A loveable sidekick, that provides some comic relief, who was a former slave who owes a life-debt to Han. And it's strange because it reminds me when I was a kid (born in 1975) and in kindergarten some of the white kids wanted me to play Chewbacca. (I guess this was before Empire Strikes Back).

Finn's basically a runaway slave or child soldier (take your familiar milieu for a black character). Furthermore they made a cheap laugh out of him working in sanitation (hold up I thought he was a Stormtrooper?), but of course didn't care or didn't know about the demeaning history of blacks being cast as domestics for quite a long time in Hollywood. So they took this soldier and turned him into a janitor (nothing against real life janitors), but in this universe of kick ass characters, the main black guy is a comic relief, ex-janitor. So runaway slave, child soldier, and janitor. I'm a little surprised that JJ allowed that to happen. I've generally been okay with his depiction of black characters in other stuff, so how they depicted Finn felt off.

Though I will also say that with Mace and Lando there was a danger about both of them that is lacking in Finn. We see him rejecting the violence of the First Order (though he has no problem later on inflicting such violence on his fellow compatriots). He doesn't have much of an edge. He's likeable, very open, funny, and very devoted to Rey. There isn't really an ideology or belief system that motivates him from what we see beyond protecting Rey and self-preservation. Granted his rejection of The First Order might be something of an ideology or belief system, or at least the beginning of it. Though we don't really see nor do I recall Finn articulating why he wanted to leave. We can infer that he was sick of the atrocities he was ordered to commit. Maybe also the regimentation, but I don't recall him actually voicing why he wanted out.

Further, with Finn we don't see any goals beyond survival, even at the end of the film (because he's not even conscious). Finn is the edgeless, safe, agreeable 21st century Negro or maybe the "New Black" that I think Hollywood likes. Lando had charm and sexuality and his own agenda. Mace could be blunt and straight kick your ass. He basically went to arrest the freaking Chancellor of the Republic and to me it was implied if he didn't go quietly then Mace would use force. And at the end Mace was prepared to assassinate him-f the courts.

To be fair Finn did play some role in taking out Starkiller Base. But at the end of the film he's in a coma and we don't know where the story with him is going to go. We can assume that Rey will get trained by Luke and Poe will continue being a dashing pilot. Finn has questionable-storyline dictated fighting ability-and he's an ex-member of the First Order. How long, if ever, can he gain the trust to become a valued member of the Resistance? Even if that's what they will do with the character. Or they might have him traipse after Rey like a lovesick puppy.

I even have to wonder if there's a kind of cheap or empty feminism at play here when Rey rebuffs Finn or seems not to be all that into him, or he is way more into her. While it might be refreshing to see that in a female character, are there any racial dynamics at play? Is it easier for a white woman to rebuff a black man for audiences? Is that preserving the sanctity of white womanhood in a way? And if one of the problems or concerns is the over representation of white men in these kinds of roles or in many roles period wouldn't Rey be more subversive or revolutionary a character if she rebuffed a white man, a white Alpha (or seemingly Alpha) male? And not a possible black Beta male?

My opinion of Finn might change by Episode VIII or the end of the trilogy. But I can't help but see how some are praising what JJ Abrams was able to do regarding the depiction of Rey and how she is a positive representation for women, though I could narrow that a bit to white women, since we only see these kinds of characters so far played by white actresses (Jennifer Lawrence, Charlize Theron, and now Daisy Ridley), and I think its dismissive to ignore racial differences among women when the white beauty standard has been a destructive thing in the lives of many non-white women.

While Rey is getting praised in some corners (and perhaps rightfully so) we don't see any article praising Finn. Because he's not that breakthrough-outside of his larger presence in marketing. It's sort of the same old, same old with him...so far.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 23, 2015, 03:16:30 pm
Some Force Awakens articles:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-11-biggest-differences-between-the-book-and-movie-v-1749329046 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-11-biggest-differences-between-the-book-and-movie-v-1749329046)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/33-questions-we-desperately-want-answered-after-star-wa-1748953034 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/33-questions-we-desperately-want-answered-after-star-wa-1748953034)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 23, 2015, 03:22:43 pm
My thought is Fynn is Han Solo.  Someone who doesn't start on the Resistance/Rebel side,  and he starts helping them for himself,  leaves when things get hot,  comes back and makes it possible to destroy the Death Star/Starkiller.  Han even provides the humor.

I think it is unfair to compare Fynn to Mace, because Mace is a fully developed character.  He doesn't change throughout the series.  Fynn however is only in the beginning of his development.   This isn't what he will be when the series ends.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 23, 2015, 04:17:59 pm
In my previous posts I said I don't know how I will feel about Finn by the end of the trilogy. That being said why can't I judge Finn comparing him to whomever? These characters, TFA itself begs to be compared to what came before because it owes so much to what did come before. It is an homage, a remix, a reboot, or whatever so its going to invite comparisons.

Mace wasn't a fully developed character in the films (not counting the discounted EU). How much screen time did he get? Finn has gotten a lot more in one film than Mace probably did in all three. Mace was a visible and important supporting character. The fact that he doesn't change makes him not a fully developed character. Now that's something that we might see Finn do more of. Then again, he did a major change in this film by leaving the First Order. I'm not sure if they will work on developing his character more. But from what we've seen already Finn has personality. Mace was generally reserved and had an edge to him. We've seen more sides to Finn than Mace already. We really didn't see Mace doubt (except for his ominous warning about the Chosen One prophecy being misread; not sure if his concern about Anakin hanging out so much with Palpatine was doubt or him just trying to talk sense to his fellow Jedi), or laugh, or cry, or even have much attachment to anyone on screen. He was tight with Yoda. He cared about the Jedi Order and democracy, he didn't trust Anakin, and that was about it. That being said, I think Mace is a better character when it comes to black characters in Star Wars than Finn. I want to be Mace or Lando, I don't want to be Finn.

But if you want to just look at Mace solely in The Phantom Menace in comparison to Finn in TFA. He sat on the Council, he judged Anakin, and he found him wanting. He played a part in seeding Anakin's distrust and anger against the Jedi that would come back to bite them big time in Episode 3. And when we are first introduced to Lando we get a little but actually a lot about him and we see him work with and then turn against the Empire. He got his character arc pretty much completed in Episode 5. I don't think Mace even had a character arc. Finn, just from TFA, had more of a character arc than Mace did in three films.

As for Finn's future development...I can easily see them just becoming more committed to the Resistance cause and perhaps falling for Rey or just going into the trusted friend zone. So his development could dead end. Doesn't mean he isn't a stalwart, trusted friend, and might even win some fights and be 'important' just not a vital character that few people want want to dress up as for Halloween unless its probably some black nerd like me starved to be some black Star Wars/sci-fi character. Finn's not as cool as Mace or Lando. Maybe he doesn't have to be, but with his ex-soldier background, the possible blood on his ledger, he could be a cool anti-hero even. Or a straight bad ass, but he's not going to be that, because that's reserved for Rey. And Poe will likely continue to be a bad ass pilot. So where does that leave Finn? A politician? A member of the Resistance bureaucracy? Or he could go back behind enemy lines to help stir up dissent and revolt among his fellow Stormtroopers. Now that might be neat.

Finn as Han Solo....hmm, I could see some parallels there. I mean Han started off as selfish and eventually joined the Rebellion, perhaps mostly to stay close to Leia, though he never said as much I don't think. Then again, staying in the Rebellion gave him a purpose and maybe kept him away from Jabba's men as well. I haven't seen the OT in a while but Han comes off never really losing his cool, sure he's thrown in all kinds of situations, but he's not sweating and huffing and puffing like Finn. And he's not the butt of jokes from what I can recall, and he trades jibes as quick as he received them.

However Finn starts off in a much different, starker place than Han in a sense. Finn was an enemy soldier to the Resistance. Being a deserter actually might not even win him many friends among the Resistance because they might think if he betrayed the First Order he might betray them. Plus I can see his loyalty being questioned a lot more than even Han Solo's would be, since Finn was an active soldier against the First Order. There might even be Resistance fighters who seek payback for First Order crimes that Finn participated in or just because he's a convenient person for them to vent or get revenge on. So he's in a different place than Han. And if they make the black guy suspect, they've went down that road before with Lando.

Finn's charming, though not roguish. He might be snarky, but more in a nerdy kind of way than a swashbuckling way. I think Poe is a little more like Han. His smart ass reply to Kylo Ren is an example in addition to his great piloting skills. I also see Poe getting more screen time the next time out. And it's guaranteed that Rey will get more screen time. And Luke is bound too. Maybe Leia as well. I definitely could see a need for more Luke, Leia, and Rey getting more screen time and Kylo Ren and likely Snoke. I see Poe and Phasma getting that screen time because they were short changed in TFA. So where might that leave Finn? I don't know. I mean to me his story might already be completed, yet they'll leave him hanging around because of Boyega's charm and diversity.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 23, 2015, 05:53:33 pm
I think I am the only person who saw Finn differently... As a future Jedi.

Two reasons I thought Flynn is Force sensitive:  when Ren looked at him during the slaughter... He was acting like there was something more there and iirc then when the big guy said there was an awaken it was before Ren started to awaken.  I thought he was talking about Flynn.

Second reason... Somewhere I heard in the original or the prequels that only Force people can wield light sabers, even to the point that it takes the Force to turn it on.    Of course the Abrams could be ignoring that.  It would explain how he could last as long as he did against Ren.

I want to read the novelization but haven't found it yet.
Nope anyone can wield a lightsaber. It just that it takes some skill to use it properly. Just like anyone can pick up a sword but if they don't know how to use it shows. BTW Han Solo used it on film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXmp1hLK0tY&ab_channel=TaekoCheng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXmp1hLK0tY&ab_channel=TaekoCheng)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 23, 2015, 07:30:35 pm
I thought this was an interesting article about Finn and the role he really served in The Force Awakens.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-20151223 (http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-20151223)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 05:40:35 am
Another reason why I think Flynn is more Han than Chewie.  You could remove Chewy from any of the movies and nothing important would change.  He is there only to help Han.  However without Flynn, everyone is dead.  He is absolutely essential to this movie. 

The problem probably if partially arising from having a female lead.   After Leia, they don't want any hint damsel in distress.  Everything is being written to avoid that.  Rey saves herself from being captured.  Then Flynn holds his own against KR long enough and provides the imputus to wake her up to fight.  It overshadowed the fact that Flynn held his own against a someone who injured or not would have cut anyone else down in seconds.  That is not a trivial feat, but it is being lost in Rey's awakening.  He has done what no one in the SW movie history has ever done. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 24, 2015, 03:15:34 pm
Regarding Finn's stand, we did see Jango Fett take on Obi-Wan. Granted Obi-Wan wasn't out to kill him and Jango had a lot more weaponry and likely was much better trained than Finn but we did see that. And General Grevious was non-Force sensitive. On the Clone Wars Cad Bane was also non-Force sensitive I believe and he took on the Jedi. In the expanded universe (EU)-discounted I know, but still non-Force sensitive Mandalorians and Yuuzhan Vong took on the Jedi and were quite formidable opponents, so Finn's stand isn't without precedent. But I do think you bring up a good point though. There hasn't been a stand like Finn's really in a live-action film. I've never questioned his bravery-in that instance. However I'm questioning his overall depiction and his future relevance.

I actually think you are overstating Finn's importance. They could've written it differently without Finn and still destroyed Starkiller Base. It wasn't like there was an insider for either Death Star to take either of those out. If they really wanted to make him integral to destroying Starkiller why not make him an engineer instead of a janitor for example? He really didn't even rescue Rey from Starkiller Base. She engineered (pun not intended) her own escape, granted Chewbacca helped her get to the Falcon. Finn was unconscious. And as it stands now, Finn's basic importance is at an end. He's superfluous now to the main action.

It will be interesting to see what happens with him next. I can't see them killing him off since they injured him so badly in TFA. Plus it might not look good on the diversity front. He's a great ambassador. Sort of reminds me of how Uhura is very prominent in the new Trek marketing or how Halle was prominent in the X-Men marketing, as Storm is in the X-Men comics, though none of them are the main characters.

But beyond that I don't see where he goes. A relationship with Rey is problematic because many are entranced with the idea of her being independent (i.e. her not needing a man or maybe damn sure not a black man), or there being a platonic relationship between them (at least between her and Finn), and we don't know how audiences would respond to that and Disney is not about to risk any money. There were reports already about how Finn's picture was minimized on the posters in China and I'm sure you're well aware of the internet meltdown over his mere appearance in Stormtrooper armor.

Basically though he's not the best at anything really in a tightly knit circle of overachievers or eventual overachievers (even Han is one of the best smugglers and pilots in the galaxy). Rey has the Force and the Millennium Falcon. She might also be a Skywalker and the heir to the Jedi. Poe is the new best pilot in the galaxy. Chewbacca is still around so he can handle the ass kicking, not to mention Luke as well. Leia is the military leader. What skills does Finn bring to the table? He's a good marksman, but it's not like any of the other people I just named aren't also crack shots (maybe not Poe, but then again, I don't know. He's lethal as hell in an X-wing or space craft though).

Even Lando, who I think is a better black character than Finn had problems. He basically isn't as good a pilot as Han and likely isn't as good a leader or administrator as Leia (though that might be debatable because in the OT I can't recall Leia actually running anything). But still I would think Lando is somewhat redundant. However Lucas found a way to make him important, as a military leader in ROTJ. It was a way to have him prominently featured and in key action scenes but also keeping him off the board in a way. We don't learn much about Lando at all in ROTJ. Even the expanded universe (EU), with budgets unlimited by their imagination, found little for Lando to do. It's curious that Han, Luke, and Leia have often been called the Big Three by some fans (totally ignoring Lando, Chewbacca, Threepio, and R2D2). It was one of the issues I had with the EU, the underuse of Lando.

Regarding a female lead. I'm glad they did that. I think it's cool. Though we have seen antecedents to Rey in the EU (Nomi Sunrider, Bastila Shan, Mara Jade Skywalker), and more recently Ahsoka Tano on Clone Wars, but never in live-action have we gotten a female character in Star Wars like her. I don't think it has to be, or should be an either/or, a zero sum game between underserved characters. I don't we should lessen Rey to elevate Finn, though I do feel that Rey at times was elevated at Finn's expense.

I also would like to see black villains in Star Wars. Not something along stereotypical lines. But David Oyelowo voices an Imperial officer (a white character) in Rebels. Why couldn't he have been black? Why can't the First Order have black officers? Why couldn't Hux have been black for example? Heck, Oyelowo could've played him easily? Why are there no live-action or canon black Sith or Sith Lords. By my count there was one black Sith, a female called Dician in the EU and she was a minor character. But it was cool to know she existed. To me, with representation black characters don't all have to be heroes. If it's a well developed villain, one that is formidable I wouldn't mind seeing more of that as well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 03:49:37 pm
Yeah, my focus on Fynn standing against KR being unique and their approach to Rey was focused on the live action movies.  Cartoons and EU trend to have a different audience and the producers of this series have dismissed the EU.  Only the movies and some (?) of cartoons are considered canon.

On a completely different topic; what where your thoughts on KR stopping an energy bolt in mid-air?

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 24, 2015, 04:43:29 pm
Before I answer that question Kip there is a new canon in Star Wars which includes all live-action movies, Clone Wars (CGI series not the microseries), Rebels, and basically all the novels and comics that have come out since 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

While I agree with you that there might be different audiences-to some extent-for this material, basically the people who are buying novels and comics and video games and watching Rebels are going to be watching the films as well. But that doesn't mean every film watcher is going to then take the next step of going beyond the films into that stuff. Similar to comic book movie watchers. I mean we read the comics and stuff while the vast majority of people who see those films don't. But that could also be said for movies adapted from books, video games, or whatever IMO.

I would argue that fandom does play a role in getting the word out, in spreading buzz, in buying all the merchandise. Just me personally I've bought comics as a run up to the movie and a Finn action figure and several books (Before the Awakening-post watching TFA, Lost Stars (can't remember now if I bought this post-TFA; probably did, Aftermath, and Lords of the Sith), also the Visual Dictionary and just today The Art of the Force Awakens and I didn't even think TFA was the next greatest thing to sliced bread. Heck some fans keep the flame's for nearly dead or dying franchises alive. I mean there are probably still Firefly fans and old school BSG fans out there (well not so many, though I am one). I hope there are Gil Gerard Buck Rogers fans out there. While Marvel's movie revenues dwarf the comics the comics still play an important role and so do fans. I have to wonder how great a gateway Rebels is and Clone Wars was in roping in new generations of Star Wars fans? Which will then go see the movies and on and on it goes.

And while the EU has been decanonized I don't think it's been completely dismissed. I mean they did mention "The New Republic", which came from the EU. Also the First Order could've been inspired by the EU's Imperial Remnant. Kylo Ren to me felt like Jacen Solo. And Rey might wind up being similar to Jaina Solo. I mean in the EU, Jacen turned dark and Jaina had to face off against him. From what I recall Luke assisted her, though from a distance.

I actually thought that it was cool when Kylo Ren did that. I was hating on him before the film. I thought his name was stupid, I thought his lightsaber was stupid. But when he first appeared I was starting to eat my words. But it only took a while and then he pulled off his mask and then he started having tantrums. And then he got his ass kicked. So it's like Ren's powers waxed and waned based on the story's dictates. That's not unique to Ren. I think Star Wars has committed that crime before with the Jedi. What did you think?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 04:59:11 pm
If I am guessing this right, rather than a fully developed villain like Vader in a storyline that is basically about the heroes journey from novice to master, we are going to see parallel journeys of both the hero and the villain. 

KR is still in apprentice stage (basically a teenager). This the temper and the loss.  Meanwhile Rey is the novice, with more raw untrained power.

I wouldn't be surpassed in the second movie KR wins the fight and someone/thing has to save her (like Luke falling away from Vader in ESB) and the final key victory in the third movie.

My only question is, will he be redeemed in the third movie?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 05:15:26 pm
As far as "That's not unique to Ren. I think Star Wars has committed that crime before with the Jedi. What did you think?"

Yeah, Star Wars hasn't been very consistent in power levels.  Despite Darth Vader's claims that the Force surpasses the Death Star's power, we didn't see him do much in the first movie.  In ESB, his, Luke's and Yoda power displays grew.  (If size doesn't matter, why didn't Darth knock Luke's X-Wing aside by using the Force during the first movie?). By the time we get to Prequels, the Jedi are super heroes but in episode 3 they were slaughtered like amateurs with only Yoda beating back the Clones.  Yeah I know their explanation for it but basically it is inconsistency.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 24, 2015, 05:19:20 pm
I agree with you that it looks like there will be parallel journeys for Rey and Ren. Maybe both will get training montages next film. And it's likely that Ren will defeat her next movie. Though I can't see them having him chopping off a hand or arm a la Anakin or Luke. I mean I don't know how Disney would feel about portraying violence against women. I think Lucas soft pedaled Anakin's abuse of Padme in ROTS, with the lame she 'died of a broken heart'. It was a disservice to a character that had been pretty brave and intrepid. With Anakin going dark it made sense to me that she would fight like hell to protect her kids, not give up like that.

The thing is I can't see Luke saving Rey either. I think some might feel that it's a regression, that it's sexism to have Luke save Rey after her kick ass introduction in TFA. In-universe it makes sense for Luke to intervene and kick some serious tail. He could check Ren easily. But there are larger, outside universe concerns about representation and I don't see them doing anything that would seriously imperil Rey's standing or sense of agency now. I'm not going to say she's going to be untouchable from this point on but I do wonder if she might be in danger of that. I think they are pushing for Rey to stand on her own. Just like Obi-Wan was dead by Empire and Yoda remained on Dagobah while Luke ran off to face Vader, the OT also made moves to have Luke stand on his own. And the PT did the same with Anakin. Dooku took out Obi-Wan twice, leaving him to face Anakin alone in AOTC and ROTS.

I think Ren's journey, and his struggle is going to be an ongoing issue in these new films. I'm not sure. I mean can he be redeemed for what he did? To me Han might be more revered than Obi Wan, particularly by the time of TFA versus where Obi-Wan was in ANH. I mean we barely knew Obi-Wan then, but still I felt his death. Han has been an icon for thirty years. Plus we've seen some other brutality that Ren has done, or they've alluded to it. Perhaps he has gone too far. In the EU, the
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Ren-like Jacen faced off against his sister Jaina and she killed him
. I wish they would take some inspiration from the EU and have Rey maybe strip Ren of the Force. I read that happened once in the Tale of the Jedi comics, with Nomi Sunrider versus Ulic Qel-Droma I believe.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I had wished that Jaina had done the same thing to Jacen. It would've kept him around, depowered but still dangerous.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 24, 2015, 05:22:55 pm
As far as "That's not unique to Ren. I think Star Wars has committed that crime before with the Jedi. What did you think?"

Yeah, Star Wars hasn't been very consistent in power levels.  Despite Darth Vader's claims that the Force surpasses the Death Star's power, we didn't see him do much in the first movie.  In ESB, his, Luke's and Yoda power displays grew.  (If size doesn't matter, why didn't Darth knock Luke's X-Wing aside by using the Force during the first movie?). By the time we get to Prequels, the Jedi are super heroes but in episode 3 they were slaughtered like amateurs with only Yoda beating back the Clones.  Yeah I know their explanation for it but basically it is inconsistency.

I agree with you. It made no sense when the Jedi were super powered or hyper aware in once instance and then weak in another. I mean the prequels didn't do a great job with the Jedi. They were duped by Sidious, were admittedly weakened by the dark side, etc. And it seems the general public was ready enough to assume the worst about them, that they had attempted a coup. I mean I think Mace and those other Jedi Masters were willing to assassinate Palpatine. They came, with their lightsabers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 05:35:17 pm
If Rey losses an arm, it would be only to keep the tradition going, second movie in each trilogy.  I hope not and I agree, it is harder to brutalize women on screen.  Yeah Disney might not want to use this echo.  I know they had those concerns on Supergirl.  They went ahead with the fight but they acknowledged it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 24, 2015, 05:46:35 pm
Which fight on Supergirl?

Yes, having Rey lose a body part would rhyme with the other second films in each trilogy, but that being said both Anakin and Luke lost their body parts because they were each rash in a way. Luke was little trained and driven by emotion, concern for his friends. Also Luke might have wanted revenge on the man who had killed Obi-Wan and who he thought murdered his father, or to avenge them. Anakin was better trained, but still driven by emotion and perhaps arrogance. Maybe Anakin wanted even a little payback for the crap Dooku had just put him, Padme, and Obi-Wan through.

I could see Rey maybe wanting payback for Han. The movie made sure to have Rey see Kylo Ren strike down Han. The film also gave Rey and Ren scenes together to build on the enmity. It might wind up being even more personal than Anakin v. Dooku.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I read that in the novelization Rey hears a voice that tells her to kill Ren, yet she rejects it. Now if they continue with this line of thinking in the movie that would be unfortunate. Because it shows that she can resist the dark side, and the temptation of the dark side is one of the most important struggles that faced both Anakin and Luke. We see what it's done to Ren already, to some extent, though we really don't know the why yet behind it.

About something you had said earlier. You are right that Ren is at the apprentice stage, however Ren isn't a teenager. Ren is in his late 20s, born a year after the Battle of Endor I believe. Rey is about ten years younger than Ren. So Ren has had some training by Luke (enough to either kill by himself or assist in killing Luke's other padawans) and he's had some training by Snoke. Plus he leads the Knights of Ren (though we don't know if all of them have Force powers or not), and he's pretty much the enforcer for the First Order. This guy shouldn't be getting cut by Finn or getting beaten by Rey, injured or not.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 24, 2015, 06:03:13 pm
Which fight on Supergirl?

Yes, having Rey lose a body part would rhyme with the other second films in each trilogy, but that being said both Anakin and Luke lost their body parts because they were each rash in a way. Luke was little trained and driven by emotion, concern for his friends. Also Luke might have wanted revenge on the man who had killed Obi-Wan and who he thought murdered his father, or to avenge them. Anakin better trained, but still driven by emotion and perhaps arrogance. Maybe Anakin wanted even a little payback for the crap Dooku had just put him, Padme, and Obi-Wan through.

I could see Rey maybe wanting payback for Han. The movie made sure to have Rey see Kylo Ren strike down Han. The film also gave Rey and Ren scenes together to build on the enmity. It might wind up being even more personal than Anakin v. Dooku.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I read that in the novelization Rey hears a voice that tells her to kill Ren, yet she rejects it. Now if they continue with this line of thinking in the movie that would be unfortunate. Because it shows that she can resist the dark side, and the temptation of the dark side is one of the most important struggles that faced both Anakin and Luke. We see what it's done to Ren already, to some extent, though we really don't know the why yet behind it.

About something you had said earlier. You are right that Ren is at the apprentice stage, however Ren isn't a teenager. Ren is in his late 20s, born a year after the Battle of Endor I believe. Rey is about ten years younger than Ren. So Ren has had some training by Luke (enough to either kill by himself or assist in killing Luke's other padawans) and he's had some training by Snoke. Plus he leads the Knights of Ren (though we don't know if all of them have Force powers or not), and he's pretty much the enforcer for the First Order. This guy shouldn't be getting cut by Finn or getting beaten by Rey, injured or not.

Sorry I wasn't clear;  I didn't mean KR was literally a teenager but a "teenager" in his training.  He is more than a novice/child but not yet a master/adult.  Still ruled by his emotions,  but with power and skill.

The fight on Supergirl was the pilot.  The villain punched and beat TV on her hard because at this stage of the game she didn't have a handle on fighting.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 25, 2015, 01:39:03 am
Yes, Ren by the end of the film does appear to not be trained that well. TFA even inserts a line from Snoke to highlight that, when Snoke says he must complete Ren's training. But to me that's contradicted earlier in the film by Ren stopping a blaster bolt. Even Vader never did that. No live-action Jedi did that from what I recall. Also his ability pull information from people's minds using the Force. Or stopping Rey in her tracks. I mean he was powerful in the Force and I can't see that being all just raw ability. There was some training there. It's just I think TFA wanted to have it both ways. Ren needed to be powerful enough, but yet weak enough to make Rey beating him seem legit, however I don't think they quite pull it off.

Arguably Rey was emotional and defeated Ren. Obi-Wan was emotional and defeated Maul. Anakin was emotional and defeated Dooku. Obi-Wan was emotional and defeated Anakin. In turn I'm sure Vader found ending Obi-Wan somewhat satisfying too. And Luke was emotional when he defeated Vader. It's just a thin line between the light and dark side and how those emotions might cross you over.

And when you look at canon Star Wars (which does include Clone Wars and Rebels), Ahsoka was a literal teenager and a padawan and still had lightsaber skills. I don't know how Ezra is doing on Rebels right now, since I haven't seen season two. Anakin was a teenager and padawan in AOTC and was good enough to stay somewhat in the game with Count Dooku.

On Supergirl I thought they've handled her fighting well enough, though I was underwhelmed by the winter finale. I do like that she's had to learn how to fight. And not just rely on her natural gifts. It's something they are slowly doing on Flash, more slowly than on Supergirl.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 25, 2015, 06:10:47 am
Ezra isn't doing bad but wait till you see Asoka fight... Yeah... That was great!  While the series hasn't impressed me, that fight did.

On Asoka...I thought it was a clever way to save her from the Jedi Purge.  It was the one thing I didn't like watching the Clone Wars series; the thought was always in the back of my mind that she had to die.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 25, 2015, 06:22:04 am
Read this article on Salon. I thought it was interesting.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/24/from_a_new_hope_to_no_hope_at_all_star_wars_tolkien_and_the_sinister_and_depressing_reality_of_expanded_universes/ (http://www.salon.com/2015/12/24/from_a_new_hope_to_no_hope_at_all_star_wars_tolkien_and_the_sinister_and_depressing_reality_of_expanded_universes/)


I think the writer overstates how the Expanded Universe was without hope. Yes there was nearly constant warfare post-ROTJ, and I believe the Yuuzhan Vong was more devastating than the Galactic Civil War. That being said I still think there remained some hopefulness and the heroes didn't give up. Leia and Han remained married, even if Han bugged out for a while after Chewbacca's death. Luke got married, raised a son, and yes became a widower and was tempted by the dark side and even fell in the EU but by the end he remained a great hero and the legit successor to Yoda. The New Jedi Order became almost as powerful as the original, maybe even more so in the post-ROTJ books. Granted the far flung Legacy comics did have the Sith and the Empire returning and taking over, but that didn't last.

I look at it as the nature of the business. They've got to keep introducing conflicts/wars to give our heroes something to do, to test them, so we can see their heroism again and again.

Compared to TFA I thought the Abrams future was a bit too grim with where the took Luke, Leia, and Han. It felt a bit more grim to me than what we got in the EU, even if there are similarities where Kylo Ren/Darth Caedus are concerned.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 25, 2015, 06:25:13 am
Ezra isn't doing bad but wait till you see Asoka fight... Yeah... That was great!  While the series hasn't impressed me, that fight did.

On Asoka...I thought it was a clever way to save her from the Jedi Purge.  It was the one thing I didn't like watching the Clone Wars series; the thought was always in the back of my mind that she had to die.

While watching Clone Wars that was in the back of my mind. How it was going to end for her. I liked Ahsoka but I was okay with it ending for her. Especially if it was epic and if she had to face off against Vader. But the way she left the show was pretty neat. And it made sense why Anakin or Obi Wan never spoke about her in ROTS.

In the Lords of the Sith novel (which takes place eight years after ROTS) Vader does think of her. But it felt odd to me. His remembered calling her Snips. Just felt strange coming from Vader, in a novel  I guess. It worked better on a cartoon.

I wasn't that impressed with Ezra from Season 1, nor Kanan for that matter. However the Kanan comic, I've liked what I read of it, so I might give him another chance.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 25, 2015, 06:31:56 am
Yeah... I never thought EU was hopeless.  Some like Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy was some of best SW I ever read.  But I ended up stopping when I found it becoming repetitive.  (I may not have stopped too soon, but by then I missed too much.)

Though, eventually I did come back to Dark Horse's Legends series.  I really liked that.

But yeah, JJA's SW was more hopeless than anything I read in the EU.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 25, 2015, 06:37:25 am

I wasn't that impressed with Ezra from Season 1, nor Kanan for that matter. However the Kanan comic, I've liked what I read of it, so I might give him another chance.

The only reason I kept watching season 2 was Asoka and maybe habit.  It's on the DVR.  The only great moment was the Asoka fight; other than that... Eh... It's nowhere near as interesting as Clone Wars was.  None of the new charters are interesting.  Nice to hear the comic is better.  May check it out. Doesn't Kanan also have a novel?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 25, 2015, 06:55:42 am
Yes there is a novel. Called A New Dawn I believe. You can buy it single or pick it up in a combo with the novel Tarkin. I thought the combo wasn't a bad deal. Even though I had picked up A New Dawn already. I haven't read it yet.

I've only read roughly the first arc of the Kanan: The Last Padawan comic. I thought it was supposed to be limited, but Marvel kept it going. I like the post-ROTS/Dark Times setting. And while it's not canon, I recommend the Dark Times comics. I think Marvel is collecting them in their Epic Collections so it will be cheaper than picking up the individual Dark Horse graphic novels, but in any event I think Dark Times comics explored that part of history well. I also recommend James Luceno's novel Dark Lord (which follows ROTS).

I do like Clone Wars more than Rebels. I didn't gravitate really to any of the characters, though some have potential. The Inquisitor was a decent antagonist and I liked what happened to him in the Season 1 finale. As for Season 2 I think bringing Vader into it is way too soon so I'm curious to see how that's going to work out. Also the other Inquisitors, I'm curious about them. And I'm definitely curious about Ahsoka. I did get to see the one scene where she senses Anakin. I thought that was awesome.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 25, 2015, 06:58:24 am
Yeah... I never thought EU was hopeless.  Some like Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy was some of best SW I ever read.  But I ended up stopping when I found it becoming repetitive.  (I may not have stopped too soon, but by then I missed too much.)

Though, eventually I did come back to Dark Horse's Legends series.  I really liked that.

But yeah, JJA's SW was more hopeless than anything I read in the EU.

I've only read the first book in Zahn's trilogy. Though I do have the others. Just haven't put the effort into reading them. I really got into the Star Wars EU novelverse during the New Jedi Order series with the Yuuzhan Vong and just went from there. To me the Vong War was the highlight. The subsequent major novel series-The Legacy of the Force and The Fate of the Jedi-each had their own problems. That being said there were things I enjoyed in both and I chalk some of the failures up to misguided or poor execution.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: TripleX on December 26, 2015, 02:12:42 am
Triple X,

My reaction wasn't as strong as yours. I thought it was a good film. But you pretty much get it about Finn. His portrayal was unsatisfying. Almost everyone's raving about this film, completely caught up in the hype of it, that I think its hard for some to look at it with a critical eye. To me there also seems to be a gleeful need to poke Lucas in the eye, to really show him how much his prequels sucked by uplifting this film to the heavens.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
And I think a lot of people are really drawing dividing lines with the character Rey and there's always the hint or charge of sexism around it. But I see Rey as a case of them replacing a super duper white guy with a super duper white female. It is diversity and progression of a sort, I suppose, but when you look at what they did-or didn't do to Finn and how they covered up Lupita, one of the most beautiful women on the planet and as far as I know the only one in the cast to have an Oscar-and if she isn't the only one, perhaps the most recent, I'm not 100% on board with that kind of 'diversity'. And there's a part of me that can't help but wonder if Rey would've  been so standoffish, 'don't grab my hand' if it wasn't Finn attempting to do so? I can see it being a good example for a feminist hero/heroine, a show of independence for the character, but the lizard part of my brain makes me wonder. Will Finn get friend zoned? And is that okay with me? Yeah and no I guess. I want black characters to be romantically and sexually active-in healthy ways-in films, but I frankly would like more intraracial relationships depicted than interracial. I think the trend is interracial and it just reinforces the idea that black- black relationships and sexuality and desirability is not desirable.

As for Kylo Ren yeah he could've kept his mask on. As soon as he took it off the menace started to fade
Spoiler (click to reveal)
and then he went out with a whimper.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
That being said I did see a side-by-side picture of him and Harrison Ford and they do have similar noses.

I'm not sure Rey is Han and Leia's kid. I'm thinking she's Luke's daughter. I mean if she was their kid why didn't they say something?
Though with this film there were a lot of questions left unanswered, confident that there would be sequels and follow up material. Not every film gets that luxury and it's not one I think even Star Wars should take lightly. I do think eventually with the plan to have a Star Wars film every year will eventually dissipate interest in the franchise. Disney is determined to have their cinematic. It might work for a while but I think people will tire of it.

I definitely agree with you about the lack of originality.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The First Order, Resistance, Ren, Snoke, all just came off like pale reflections of stuff that's come before. I wish they had taken more risks and really expanded the story, pushed it forward. But they pretty much just returned to the state of the galaxy in A New Hope without filling out the details of why that was? I mean there is a New Republic now, but how big and powerful are they and why are they funding a Resistance? Can't they put their own Republic ships in the fight? How big and powerful is the First Order? Are there other Imperial factions out there? Obviously the First Order is powerful enough to develop the Starkiller Base. Why did Ben Solo turn against Luke? Who is Snoke? And if Ben/Ren was defeated by Rey and Finn held his own for a moment against him (granted Ren was injured), but still, how did this guy defeat and kill all of Luke's students?

And for a self-confessed fan of the originals and TFA was a very heavy homage to the original films, particularly A New Hope, why did Abrams give the Big Three (Luke, Leia, and Han) such sh*tty post-ROTJ futures? Han and Luke run away. Leia becomes a hardened, or rather weathered general.

I only read the first in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, but yeah I would've liked that story or a variation on it to make it fresh more. I mean you even had Max Von Sydow there to play the crazy Jedi C'boath if they had wanted to go that route. I liked the Yuuzhan Vong stories and would've liked to see them. A different enemy-not Sith-that's outside the Force. I thought they were cool. Or even adaptations of the Legacy of the Force or Fate of the Jedi series.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Though to be fair to TFA there are shades of Legacy of the Force in this film. They might as well called Kylo Ren Jacen.

"Unsatisfying" puts it so much nicer and succinctly than I did, thank you. I've seen it again and my thoughts on Finn haven't changed. The scene with him getting kicked out of the space hippo's watering hole was a bridge too far. It almost ruined a great movie for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2015, 05:35:02 am
I know I will probably see it again. I'm debating about whether I should take my nieces or nephew to it see it. I think it's great for my nieces to see Rey, however I don't feel good about them seeing Finn. And same with my nephew, about seeing Finn. If I wasn't so cheap I could buy the Clone Wars so my nieces could watch a great female Jedi character (one better fleshed out than Rey so far) in Ahsoka.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 28, 2015, 08:05:45 am
Finn needs his own warship.  Poe is being set up to be a buddy, so maybe hell get further flight training.  There needs to be a new class of ships created.  Weve already seen the vaguely-tweaked updates of the X-Wing fighters.  Since BB-8 seems to informally belong to Poe, Finn should also get his own astromech droid.  Also: so far, we've never seen anyone wield a black lightsaber. (hint).. make it happen.. ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2015, 12:39:39 pm
^
Mace Windu (Samuel L. Jackson) wielded a lightsaber in Episodes 2 & 3.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: TripleX on December 29, 2015, 03:33:10 pm
^
Mace Windu (Samuel L. Jackson) wielded a lightsaber in Episodes 2 & 3.

Yeah but it was purple, not black
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 29, 2015, 05:35:44 pm
Sorry I misunderstood what Hypestyle had said. I thought he meant that no black person had wielded a lightsaber before Finn. As for the black lightsaber (darksaber) you never know we might get that. It's canon, since one was in the Clone Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 29, 2015, 06:11:37 pm
Some articles about Finn:

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/12/23/for-the-love-of-fn-2187-why-finn-is-one-of-the-best-new-characters-in-star-wars/ (http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/12/23/for-the-love-of-fn-2187-why-finn-is-one-of-the-best-new-characters-in-star-wars/)

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-star-wars-the-rey-finn-dance-and-a-post-racial-futurepast (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-star-wars-the-rey-finn-dance-and-a-post-racial-futurepast)

http://hannibaltabu.tumblr.com/post/135433506509/why-i-hated-star-wars-the-force-awakens (http://hannibaltabu.tumblr.com/post/135433506509/why-i-hated-star-wars-the-force-awakens)

http://www.racialicious.com/2015/12/28/voices-the-debate-awakens-around-john-boyega-and-star-wars-finn/#more-40172 (http://www.racialicious.com/2015/12/28/voices-the-debate-awakens-around-john-boyega-and-star-wars-finn/#more-40172)

I didn't listen to Brandon Easton's full argument but from the snippet posted at Racialicious I think he's tarring black critics of Finn and not taking some legitimate concerns with that character. He himself admits that the image of black males is often denigrated, though I do think he defines that denigration in two very broad extremes-presenting a 'false choice'-in the word of Obama (or should I say President Finn, but that's for another conversation). Finn does show interest in Rey, but she didn't reciprocate (at least in this film though I doubt it will happen in the future films), so he was sexless. He was blue balled. He was friend zoned. He isn't a criminal true, then again that's also a matter of perspective. In the eyes of the First Order he is a criminal, and quite possibly in the eyes of the New Republic which I don't think officially recognizes or supports the Resistance. He isn't an actual criminal, IMO, but it is telling that Rey and BB-8 initially consider him a thief.

I'm disappointed that a guy like Easton doesn't see some of the odious racial imaging going on with Finn that I've written about before, as have others on this board.

As for Jamal Igle, he's making the Finn as Han Solo argument. I don't buy that either. Han Solo starts out with his own name, his own ship, his own agency. He doesn't get lovesick and follow Leia around or become second fiddle to her. He's also more brave than Igle gives him credit for. He has a kind of crazy, reckless bravery in the action scenes on the Death Star for example. Han isn't knocked out at the end of ANH, he helps save the day, and he gets a medal. Finn, while unconscious-highlighting his uncertain future-gets a chaste kiss on the forehead from Rey before she goes off to fulfill her destiny. Like he's a pet.

I have to wonder if some of the black Finn defenders are so into the character because he's a nerd. I've been thinking more about Finn and while I can't quite say he's an everyman, not like that the way it's been traditionally defined (white/white ethnic male, hardworking blue collar/working class, more than likely heterosexual and religious to a degree, humble, honorable, etc., etc.), Finn might be more a geek surrogate. He's awkward and a bit bumbling, at times cowardly and totally falls for a girl out of his league, though he shows flashes of charm and bravery. I have to wonder if some black nerds aren't going gaga over Finn because he's a lot like us. One of the Igle article commenters also made a good point. Han was an Alpha male, which is true. Finn is not. Finn is not a successor to Han. And Rey has taken the Luke spot. That leaves Leia and as I mentioned before, Chewbacca. And I still see him fitting more the Chewbacca role. A trusted, 'valued' sidekick, a stalwart friend. Maybe a Samwise Gamgee for Star Wars.

Igle presents another false choice, concluding that not every black hero has to be like Wesley Snipes. On the surface that's true, but when you see the dearth of black heroes in media and in particular genre stuff, yeah, I do want a competent hero that kicks ass. Despite my gripes about the overusage of the n-word in Django Unchained that final bloodbath was thrilling as heck. Igle also says he wants to see a hero stumble, fall, and get up again. It's like he's ignoring that Finn was knocked unconscious at the end of the film. There was no getting up at the end of that film for him.

I want to see black Alpha male heroes. Why can't black males kick ass and get the girl at the same time as well?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 30, 2015, 02:02:01 am
I slept on it, and I wanted to say that 'odious' might be too strong word when describing Finn's depiction. However it does feel retrograde or regressive. And even the racially/culturally insensitive characters from The Phantom Menace/prequels at least were cast as aliens. I do think it's more damaging when you have a human character that exhibits questionable (at best) behavior and actions that harken back some very odious (there's that word again) images of blacks in media.

As for Finn/Obama, they are not alike on the surface. However I think the attempt to craft a safe, non-threatening black male is what ties them together. I think of Finn as something of a space Kevin Hart as well. Though at least Kevin Hart sometimes gets the girl.

And it was unfair and inaccurate to say Finn has no agency. He does have some agency, at the beginning when he refuses to fire and then when he breaks Poe out. However it feels undeveloped and subordinate and largely in support of the non-black characters, particularly Rey.

And I wanted to return to Easton's comments, and his 'pseudo-revolutionary' charge. To me I think that's disparaging. He's trying to make opposition or criticism sound ludicrous or over-the-top, illegitimate. When what I've read so far about Finn isn't much different than other stuff about the depiction of blacks in media. Some of that can get heated. But it's not out of bounds. And I don't think it's pseudo-revolutionary. As I said before even Easton knows how sketchy the depiction of black males are, so I don't get why he's damning the 'righteous anger' of some Finn critics. If some people are angry, why shouldn't they be? And definitely if they are disappointed?

Perhaps some might think Star Wars or the size of this movie insulates Finn but from what I've seen-disappointingly-it has not. If anything it's put Finn in stark relief, made him bigger than life. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 30, 2015, 08:36:34 pm
Does anyone else besides me think Snoke is an odd choice for Supreme Leader's name?  It really isn't that awe inspiring or fearsome sounding.

(Then again, Luke doesn't sound like the name of some great Jedi Master.  It worked when he was a kid from a backwards world, but in the new series... Jedi Master Luke just falls flat.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 04, 2016, 11:33:46 am
I don't care for the name Snoke. Some of the other TFA names didn't sit well with me either when I first heard them. I liked the names Lucas came up with a lot of his characters. While Luke might sound ordinary, you add in the Skywalker. It's all good.

Back to Snoke...when I saw the character in the movie, he did look like he could be named that. However its one of the weakest dark side character names I've heard of.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Mad Coco G on January 07, 2016, 02:30:43 pm
I slept on it, and I wanted to say that 'odious' might be too strong word when describing Finn's depiction. However it does feel retrograde or regressive. And even the racially/culturally insensitive characters from The Phantom Menace/prequels at least were cast as aliens. I do think it's more damaging when you have a human character that exhibits questionable (at best) behavior and actions that harken back some very odious (there's that word again) images of blacks in media.

As for Finn/Obama, they are not alike on the surface. However I think the attempt to craft a safe, non-threatening black male is what ties them together. I think of Finn as something of a space Kevin Hart as well. Though at least Kevin Hart sometimes gets the girl.

And it was unfair and inaccurate to say Finn has no agency. He does have some agency, at the beginning when he refuses to fire and then when he breaks Poe out. However it feels undeveloped and subordinate and largely in support of the non-black characters, particularly Rey.

And I wanted to return to Easton's comments, and his 'pseudo-revolutionary' charge. To me I think that's disparaging. He's trying to make opposition or criticism sound ludicrous or over-the-top, illegitimate. When what I've read so far about Finn isn't much different than other stuff about the depiction of blacks in media. Some of that can get heated. But it's not out of bounds. And I don't think it's pseudo-revolutionary. As I said before even Easton knows how sketchy the depiction of black males are, so I don't get why he's damning the 'righteous anger' of some Finn critics. If some people are angry, why shouldn't they be? And definitely if they are disappointed?

Perhaps some might think Star Wars or the size of this movie insulates Finn but from what I've seen-disappointingly-it has not. If anything it's put Finn in stark relief, made him bigger than life.



There's been actual legit criticism of Finn? You mean calling him JarJar 2.0 is to be taken seriously? All I've seen is a Bich of folks mad they didn't get Space Shaft and bitch and moan non stop about it while staying silent on actual questionable sh*t in film/tv( these are the same folks jumping up and down over how great a showing Storm has in the trailer for Alocalypse ignoring that the same director hasn't given a sh*t about her in over a decade ).

I agree with Easton and it's just pseudo-revolutionary HOTEP bullsh*t akin to Gamergate
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 07, 2016, 05:50:35 pm
Well I guess it depends on what your definition of legit is. I've laid out my reasons to the best of my ability and provided other criticism as well. Of course that's no more "legit" than the people who have reasoning for why they like Finn or don't have a problem with him. As for Space Shaft, once again I see the critics of the Finn critics seem to go for extreme examples in an attempt to make any criticism seem ridiculous or irrational. Though when you see Finn wield a lightsaber in the trailer and on posters you might be forgiven to expect to see him be a Jedi or kick ass. And when you see him in Stormtrooper armor I also think you can be forgiven to expect that Finn might be a badass or capable soldier in a movie replete with capable people. Compared to Rey and Finn, his co-stars, Finn was the most ineffectual of the trio. Look at my posts, I know they are long, but since you replied to something I wrote, I ask that you take a look at all the things I wrote about Finn. If I had gotten Space Shaft I would be fine with that, but what I wanted was a character that wasn't subordinate or the comic relief. Someone with his own agency, that was competent, and not chasing behind Rey. I didn't really expect Finn to be the main character but I wanted him to be a better developed character.

If Finn isn't questionable, then what is about TFA? What's the truly important stuff that you are suggesting that Finn critics are ignoring? And I would argue that while I have been critical of Finn, my criticism of the film did not stop there. Finn was something I definitely honed in on because I do care about the depiction of black people in media. How is that any different than your concern about Storm's potential mishandling in the upcoming Apocalypse film? It's different in one respect in that we see the finished product with Force Awakens and have not seen Apocalypse yet. I'm a Finn critic and I'm not jumping up and down about Storm from the trailer. I don't expect we will get much out of her, like the previous films, but that will remain to be seen.

I didn't call him Jar Jar 2.0 in any of my posts. Though at least Lucas had the decency or perhaps the lack of stones to hide his racial or cultural insensitivity under CGI and make up with Jar Jar, the Nemoidians, and Watto. Finn is front and center and more than likely developed with the best of intentions and no surface ill intent.  I didn't compare Finn to Jar Jar, I compared him to the other black male characters, the prominent ones, in Star Wars, Mace Windu and Lando Calrissian,and I found Finn wanting in those comparisons. I looked at Finn as objectively as I could, and listed what I thought his positives were and his negatives. Instead of coming in here to rage or be dismissive, how about providing a 'legit' counterargument.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 08, 2016, 04:01:02 pm
A follow up critique of Force Awakens from the Shadow and Act website, this time focusing on Lupita Nyong'o's character.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-ii-othering-the-black-female-body-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens-20160106 (http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-ii-othering-the-black-female-body-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens-20160106)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 08, 2016, 07:50:15 pm
A thought hit me today regarding Flynn.  He isn't actually a Black character.  He is only Black before the actor playing him is Black.  You could have switched the actor who plays Poe with the one who plays Flynn and it would have been exactly the same storyline for both men.   Flynn, being an alien, is probably the truest Color- Blind Character. 

He isn't like Mace, because Mace is Samuel L. Jackson.  Change the actor you change the character, because Samuel L. Jackson is superimposed over the characters he plays.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 09, 2016, 04:41:38 am
It's interesting that you say that because in the Art of the Force Awakens which I bought but only skimmed through thus far, Poe was conceptually designed-at least at one point-as a black character and Sam/Finn was white. At one point, Rey was also called Kira. However I don't know when Boyega was chosen and how that impacted how the character of Finn was then developed, or not, because of that. We don't know if Finn was changed-if at all- due to Boyega's casting or the decision that they wanted a non-white and ultimately a black actor for the role, that this was a role they felt fitting for a black actor.

If Finn had been played by a white actor without any changes I don't think there would be much rancor on my part because white male actors have played a multiplicity of roles and are often the hero or the main characters, they have humanity and agency, whereas there is a whole history of how Hollywood has marginalized, stereotyped, and dehumanized black people through the use of stunted black characters. The white fool character is countered by the white hero or even the cool, intelligent white villain. Blacks historically were slaves, servants, subordinate in Hollywood roles, made into comic relief. And this is what I saw with Finn, which is unfortunate because it feels like a reversion compared to Samuel L. Jackson and Billy Dee Williams. Kip I think you make an interesting point about Jackson, which could apply to Williams as well, that these were two veteran actors. And Boyega is younger and perhaps more amendable or pliable. Boyega doesn't have the built in fan base that Jackson or Williams had.

Finn was no more alien than Rey, Poe, Han, Luke, or Leia. He is a human character. Star Wars has human characters. Now there have been black aliens, like Luminara Unduli, Stass Allie, Adi Gallia. Now you could make a b.s. argument that race doesn't matter in Star Wars, that there are no 'black' or 'white' characters in Star Wars, but these are space fantasy movies made for human audiences on Earth, where there are black and white people-whether you believe its all just a social construct or not-the racial disparities tell a much different, starker, and depressing story. And these films are conceived and made by largely white creators so their views on race are going to factor into it. Heck, Lucas and Abrams definitely use the racist Nazi regime as inspiration for their bad guys.

I don't buy the colorblind argument. Boyega was cast to make a statement, and to create an impact, evidenced by the near meltdown some fans had over seeing a black man in a Stormtrooper outfit. On the surface that statement seems positive, progressive, and forward leaning, but the actual result is more of the same in terms of the black character as a sidekick, comic relief, sexless, ineffectual (in comparison to Rey and perhaps Poe). To me Finn is the kind of black role that feels comfortable and safe within the white imagination. Let's pat ourselves on the back because we included him, I can imagine the thoughts, and look at Boyega, he's so happy to be and some black fans are so happy he's there that it reinforces the rightness of their thinking.

How would Finn be any more 'colorblind' than any other character in Star Wars-human or alien? Are you referring to Boyega's casting alone? If so, casting Billy Dee Williams was more important, and arguably gutsier on Lucas's part. I mean Abrams is a 21st century film maker in an era where diversity is a buzz word and he's contending more with a diverse, global audience than Lucas was during the original trilogy. So yeah, it's not much of a stretch or that 'brave' to cast a black man or Latino or even a white female as leading characters in Force Awakens. It was bolder for Lucas to do so in the original trilogy with Carrie Fisher and Williams.

One critic I was listening to on You Tube made a good point. He talked about the outrage over Finn as a Stormtrooper before the film but how all those critics had melted away after the film came out. I hadn't noticed that but I think he's right. They saw in TFA that there was nothing to worry about. Finn wasn't the main hero, he wasn't a black Alpha male that got the girl (white girl). He was comic relief. Their white maleness wasn't threatened at all by Finn like they imagined it was when he first appeared in that armor.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 09, 2016, 09:48:21 am
Actually we don't know if he gets the girl or not; the story isn't done.

I agree there are metaissues in casting a Black actor, but when I speak about being a Color-Blind character I am referring only to the story itself. (I think all the humans in SW are also Color-Blind characters.). I actually think that he, Rey and Poe are at also gender-blind if you allow for gay-lesbian subtext.

I can't really comment on Billy D Williams and Lando because I know Lando better than the actor who plays him.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 09, 2016, 10:02:13 am
As for the end of TFA did Finn or did he not have the girl? I carrot is held out for 'maybe next time', and you're right in the sense that the story isn't completed and none of us know, but to be honest I've heard this kind of teaser held out before and it rarely if ever pans out.

I don't think race as we see it, experience it, and grapple with it in the 20/21st centuries plays a role in how the characters onscreen address and react to each other, for the most part, however that's not such a bold revelation when a majority of those characters have been white with some non-white people in supporting roles or sprinkled in the background. Then again, some might see racial/cultural insensitivity masked behind alien characters (Jar Jar, Watto, Nemoidians) and I find Finn off putting. But within the story itself it's not like the characters recognize racial differences among humans. And I have to repeat that a majority of people crafting Star Wars are white and I do think that factors into roles in which they see or feel comfortable casting black characters, and that can be suspect.

I don't think Rey is that gender-blind within the context of the story. And we know that's not the case outside of the story, where she's become a lightning rod for feminist and anti-feminist opinion. Nor Padme or Leia were completely gender-blind, within or without their stories. I think Star Wars creators have tried to make these characters independent and strong willed, within limits perhaps for Leia and Padme. I can't say they are held back by their gender within the films, but that marginalization was already done by the creators beforehand. Like I would argue to a greater extent with Finn and to a lesser extent with Mace and Lando. When all of them faced a primary white antagonist or white Alpha male they all lost or were taken down a peg. Finn lost to TR-8R and Kylo Ren, after getting taken down by Rey. Mace lost to Anakin and Palpatine. Lando was checked by Vader and had to make amends for betraying Han, etc.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 09, 2016, 10:21:46 am
As for the end of TFA did Finn or did he not have the girl? I carrot is held out for 'maybe next time', and you're right in the sense that the story isn't completed and none of us know, but to be honest I've heard this kind of teaser held out before and it rarely if ever pans out.


I agree especially if this series parallels the original three.  With NH we expected Leia to end up with Luke.    By the third, he was a sibling.  A similar kind of thing could happen here.  Though that couldn't be the original plan since Poe was supposed to die.  (Personally I can't figure out why anyone is into Poe.  He only existed to move Flynn's story along.  Yeah, he named him, but that was moving Flynn's story forward.  I don't think he was even needed in the final battle.  He could have (should have) died in the crash.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 09, 2016, 11:25:55 am
I liked Poe. Granted he got very little screen time, but in what you saw he mouthed off to Kylo Ren and he showed off his piloting skills. He was dashing and also had good chemistry with Finn. Enough so that some people online would like to see a Finn/Poe romantic relationship develop. I hadn't thought of Poe existing to move Finn's story along. That's an interesting take. I see Finn existing in many respects to move Rey's story along.

As for Rey/Finn I think it's nothing going to happen on a romantic front. Rey's chaste forehead kiss sealed it for me. Plus Finn was way more into her than she was into him. And I also think there will be breaks on the relationship perhaps because of racial anxieties but also a concern that Rey be seen as independent and not involved in any romantic entanglements. If she is the successor of Luke, he didn't get any play in the original trilogy either. He was too busy saving the galaxy and I can see that happening with Rey as well.

Of course this is just my speculation. They could totally surprise me and create a great love story for Finn and Rey. But for me I would rather they build up Finn to make him a more capable, less comical character. I don't care about a Finn/Rey romantic relationship. But however they interact I don't want Rey to benefit and Finn made lesser because of it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 11, 2016, 05:36:58 pm
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/11/john-boyega-says-star-wars-episode-8-is-much-darker-finn-more-physical (http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/11/john-boyega-says-star-wars-episode-8-is-much-darker-finn-more-physical)

http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-iii-hiding-the-hispanic-while-the-force-awakens-20160111 (http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/hyper-tokenism-iii-hiding-the-hispanic-while-the-force-awakens-20160111)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 26, 2016, 02:25:42 pm
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-24-most-insane-theories-about-who-rey-s-parents-are-1755245668 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-24-most-insane-theories-about-who-rey-s-parents-are-1755245668)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Kimoyo on January 27, 2016, 10:54:16 am
It seemed to me that the main new characters from "The Force Awakens" were resurrected with the personalities of the the big three from "A New Hope" as follows:

Finn = Luke
Ray = Han
Poe = Leia

Viewed through this spectrum in the vein of what I feel is a new storytelling convention specific to remakes of iconic/classic tales, I don't have the problems many have voiced with regard to Finn's portrayal or more precisely, the storyteller's portrayal of Finn through Boyega.  Even so, I think there is real truth in EJ's astute observation:

"...Boyega was cast to make a statement, and to create an impact, evidenced by the near meltdown some fans had over seeing a black man in a Stormtrooper outfit. On the surface that statement seems positive, progressive, and forward leaning, but the actual result is more of the same in terms of the black character as a sidekick, comic relief, sexless, ineffectual (in comparison to Rey and perhaps Poe). To me Finn is the kind of black role that feels comfortable and safe within the white imagination. Let's pat ourselves on the back because we included him, I can imagine the thoughts, and look at Boyega, he's so happy to be and some black fans are so happy he's there that it reinforces the rightness of their thinking."

While the result for me was not that I saw Finn as comic relief et. al.  In fact I saw him as noble, heroic and full of potential.  However the story, as Kip noted is not done and it played to me as an intentional cliff hanger in which the subsequent chapters will define who and what each of theses characters will be.  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 27, 2016, 12:16:22 pm
Kimoyo,

You a good dude, but man do I have to disagree with you. You going to lay out some explanations for how you are comparing the new characters to the old.

I don't think Finn is like Luke at all. When we first meet Luke he wants to join the Imperial Academy. He doesn't like the Empire, but it's a come up for him, and he wants that opportunity. But the main thing with him is he wants adventure, he wants to get involved, and he shows a pretty fearless streak. Plus he is the main hero, or one of he main heroes that lands a decisive blow against the Empire. With Finn, his fear of the First Order is evident from jump. He's running from them and he wants to put as much space between them and him as possible. Now his feelings for Rey create tension inside him, yet not enough for him to initially leave her. But once he sees she's captured his feelings for her win out. However he's not committed to a grander cause of freedom or liberty in TFA, he's committed to Rey. While Finn does play a key role in destroying Starkiller Base he it is not as decisive as it with Luke. And whereas Luke is doing things for a higher cause, Finn is all about Rey. If Rey hadn't been captured, Finn wouldn't have risked his life on that mission. And at the end of each respective film I find I telling that Luke gets a medal and is praised while Finn in a coma.

I don't think Rey is like Han at all. Han is motivated solely by greed at first. And damn it, he shot first, showing his grasp on morality was slippery. Though we realize that he does have a personal code of honor as things progress. Rey isn't motivated by money so much as making it for subsistence survival.  Granted Han was also trying to make money to survive Jabba but I got a feeling he was sort of greedy dude and shifty. Rey was never shifty. While Han got involved for monetary reasons, Rey was sort of pulled into the action to run from the First Order. The main similarity I see between them in a general reluctance, however its for different reasons and I think Han got over his a bit quicker, though perhaps as murkily explained as Rey's change of heart. Also Rey is the main character of this new saga, like Luke was in the original trilogy. Han was a great character and got his own arc but still he was a supporting character.

I don't agree with Poe and Leia either, though the info on Poe is so scant I don't feel as confident in my case. Both Poe and Leia are committed rebels. And both can mouth off to Imperials. But so far all we've seen of Poe is his piloting skills. And thus far we can't say he possesses any of the political acumen of Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Kimoyo on January 28, 2016, 04:43:04 pm
Thanks EJ, I think you're a good dude too!  I have no problem bowing to your more informed take on these characters as I admit to being more of a Trekkie even though I grew up with both.  My take was just the impression I came away from the film with and truthfully I can see enough overlapping of the different character traits to make a case for Ray as Luke or Poe as Han, but from your description it seems like you've likened Finn with Han's characterization from the original trilogy.  I'm okay with that too.  I really don't have a problem with Boyega as Finn portraying a new take on such an iconic, beloved and enduring character.  At the end of the film I still found him to have displayed courage, nobility and a strength of conviction not always found in someone of Finn's age.  I mean when have we ever seen a storm trooper defect?  I  do admit though, you may very well know better than I.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 29, 2016, 02:07:11 am
Kimoyo,

I actually like Star Trek more than Star Wars, though I do like Star Wars a lot. Actually I think Finn is more like Chewbacca, a kind of lovable sidekick, someone in the mix, that contributes, but ultimately is not the major deciding factor. I believe earlier in the post Kip-and correct me if I'm wrong Kip-compared Han and Finn. I mean there is some similarities in terms of both being outsiders, perhaps providing a kind of gateway introduction to the universe, and maybe even being 'everyman' characters (though I think the idea of black characters being 'everyman' characters is rare to nonexistent in mainstream media; it is a role usually reserved for white men). Also both Finn and Han are reluctant in joining the fight, though for different reasons. And both have romantic interests for the main female characters of their respective movies. However Han is much cooler in how he approaches that than the sweating, huffing Finn. So I do think there are some similarities between Han and Finn, or it could be argued such, however I find them surface. Once again, I see Finn more like Chewbacca. He's a tag-a-long character. And many of the descriptions for Han and Finn could apply to Chewbacca as well. One telling thing for me is that Chewbacca gets involved because of Han, it's a personal thing, and Finn's motivation to get involved is also personal, he cares about Rey and wants to rescue her from Starkiller Base. But I mean what does Finn add ultimately to the mix? Finn isn't a Jedi or even Force sensitive (at least according to the last time I checked Wookieepedia; granted the next film could change that), he's not a bad ass warrior like the Fetts, he's a decent shot but so is just about everyone else, he doesn't own a ship, he has no particular skills (outside of janitorial skills) that we see.

It makes me think of the film Jupiter Ascending. There Mila Kunis is also a domestic who turns out to be the queen of Earth. White domestics get to be secret rulers, but Finn just gets blue balled and placed into a coma.

Don't get me wrong in the sense that I completely didn't like Finn. Boyega is likable. He did display the traits you recognized, but that being said that's not so out of the ordinary when it comes to Star Wars. I mean teens Luke, Leia, Padme, and Anakin also displayed similar traits. As did Rey in TFA. You are right that we've never seen a Stormtrooper defect but that was undercut by making him a janitor who was pressed into going to Jakku. I might be wrong, but I think that was his first mission. So was he really a Stormtrooper? He was just a guy in over his head, who couldn't hack it. Which is fine and perhaps 'realistic' but it even takes away the idea of Finn having regret, remorse, guilt, or even showing a different, darker side to him. I mean it could've been a whole history there of various missions and crap that he had done that they could've played with. It stunted a potential arc. It reminds me of Shepherd Book in Firefly/Serenity. I personally liked the idea that he had this dark past in the Alliance that he was atoning for. It added mystery and menace. TFA took that away from Finn.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Kimoyo on January 29, 2016, 05:41:17 am
I get you EJ.  I just found Finn so much younger and more inexperienced than Han.  I guess that's why I first related him to Luke.  He has so much potential for growth if the storytellers are so inclined.  Still I think he drove the action and helped move the story along much more so than Chewbacca ever did.  I'd have to relate him to one of the big 3.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 29, 2016, 05:53:45 pm
You're right in that Finn drove the action more than Chewbacca ever did. It was Finn's decision to leave the First Order which set things in motion. But at the same time he also needed to be rescued more than Chewbacca did too.

Finn is younger than Han, but Rey is also young. I think Rey is roughly the same age as Luke was in A New Hope. If you look at it by age you could say Rey=Luke, Finn=Leia, and Poe=Han. I see the similarities with Poe and Rey and the OT characters, but I don't see a similarity between Finn and Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 29, 2016, 08:04:36 pm
It's more than that; without Finn, there is no movie.

Without Finn, Poe remains a prisoner of the First Order
Without Finn, Rey probably loses BB, and would never leave the planet.
Without Finn, the Resistance would not have known how to take down the doomsday weapon.
Without Finn, Rey would have either been captured or killed by Ren, before she recovered enough to fight.

Basically without Finn, the Resistance loses.

Take Chewbacca out of the original movie and really nothing except humor changes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Kimoyo on January 29, 2016, 08:12:27 pm
You're right in that Finn drove the action more than Chewbacca ever did. It was Finn's decision to leave the First Order which set things in motion. But at the same time he also needed to be rescued more than Chewbacca did too.

Hahaha!  Actually, I think everybody needed to be rescued more than Chewbacca.  In fact, I don't remember Chewy needing rescue, maybe the trash compactor with the group in A New Hope?  Luke, on the other hand, needed quite a bit of rescue up to an including Episode Six.  Who could forget the redemption of Darth Vader saving his son n by throwing the Emperor down the chute? 

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 30, 2016, 04:52:48 am
It's more than that; without Finn, there is no movie.

Without Finn, Poe remains a prisoner of the First Order
Without Finn, Rey probably loses BB, and would never leave the planet.
Without Finn, the Resistance would not have known how to take down the doomsday weapon.
Without Finn, Rey would have either been captured or killed by Ren, before she recovered enough to fight.

Basically without Finn, the Resistance loses.

Take Chewbacca out of the original movie and really nothing except humor changes.

For Poe's rescue, yes and no. I mean they could've obviously wrote him escaping some other way. But Finn was instrumental in his escape.
Rey was handling herself pretty well against the people trying to take BB-8. Finn was going to intervene and then saw she was handling it.
I think the Resistance did have some info already on Starkiller Base, and Finn bluffed that he was more important on the base than he actually was. That being said he did point out Captain Phasma and with help, help capture her.
Yeah Finn did provide Rey to recover, so he did play a crucial role there.

But in some much of this stuff Finn bumbled and stumbled and often needed to be helped out as much or more than he helped. At least Chewbacca didn't do that. I think you are bloating Finn's importance in winning the battle. He did play an important role but I don't think it hinged on him alone.

Good point that if you removed Chewbacca from the film it wouldn't affect it like if you removed Finn. But where does Finn 'fit' in overall compared to the original characters, and he doesn't really have much of an impact or future going forward except as a supporting-albeit a very prominent supporting character-going forward. Of course my suspicions could be totally upended by the future films.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 30, 2016, 05:05:45 am
You're right in that Finn drove the action more than Chewbacca ever did. It was Finn's decision to leave the First Order which set things in motion. But at the same time he also needed to be rescued more than Chewbacca did too.

Hahaha!  Actually, I think everybody needed to be rescued more than Chewbacca.  In fact, I don't remember Chewy needing rescue, maybe the trash compactor with the group in A New Hope?  Luke, on the other hand, needed quite a bit of rescue up to an including Episode Six.  Who could forget the redemption of Darth Vader saving his son n by throwing the Emperor down the chute? 

Peace,

Mont

You are right that Luke did need rescue a lot, however Luke also got to own it to in a way that Finn has not and IMO will never get to be. He's not the main character. Rey is, which I think is part of the issue with her is that they powered her up so much in TFA it's going to be hard seeing her lose and get humbled like Anakin or Luke did in their sagas. As for Finn to me his arc could be over in TFA-from leaving the First Order to joining the Resistance. Now they could add the romantic angle with Rey, but I don't really see them doing that. For one Star Wars films don't have a great track record in that regard, except for Han and Leia and that was sort of a side story while the main character Luke remained chaste. I could see Rey remaining chaste. Granted there are some folks who want a Poe/Finn relationship out there but I don't see Disney going that route either because of fear of how it might affect their bottom line.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 30, 2016, 05:59:05 am
It's more than that; without Finn, there is no movie.

Without Finn, Poe remains a prisoner of the First Order
Without Finn, Rey probably loses BB, and would never leave the planet.
Without Finn, the Resistance would not have known how to take down the doomsday weapon.
Without Finn, Rey would have either been captured or killed by Ren, before she recovered enough to fight.

Basically without Finn, the Resistance loses.

Take Chewbacca out of the original movie and really nothing except humor changes.

For Poe's rescue, yes and no. I mean they could've obviously wrote him escaping some other way. But Finn was instrumental in his escape.
Rey was handling herself pretty well against the people trying to take BB-8. Finn was going to intervene and then saw she was handling it.
I think the Resistance did have some info already on Starkiller Base, and Finn bluffed that he was more important on the base than he actually was. That being said he did point out Captain Phasma and with help, help capture her.
Yeah Finn did provide Rey to recover, so he did play a crucial role there.

But in some much of this stuff Finn bumbled and stumbled and often needed to be helped out as much or more than he helped. At least Chewbacca didn't do that. I think you are bloating Finn's importance in winning the battle. He did play an important role but I don't think it hinged on him alone.

Good point that if you removed Chewbacca from the film it wouldn't affect it like if you removed Finn. But where does Finn 'fit' in overall compared to the original characters, and he doesn't really have much of an impact or future going forward except as a supporting-albeit a very prominent supporting character-going forward. Of course my suspicions could be totally upended by the future films.

I didn't mean to say that everything hinged on him alone.  Without Poe, he's still be stuck on the base because he wasn't a pilot.  Without Rey, he'd be stuck on the planet and so on.  He's not alone in importance, but he's important to the story.

As far as where does Fin "fit" in the comparison to the original characters--I think fans are over-doing this.  There are some comparisons--Rey and Luke are really alike--but I think trying to do a 1 for 1 match and expecting all the details to line up is going to far.  Finn changed sides; in that way, he's like Darth Vader.  He changed sides.  But comparisons should be limited.  Rey is very much like Luke, but her goal in life was to find her family; and Luke's was to get away for an adventure. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 30, 2016, 10:19:17 am
I'm not trying for a one-for-one comparison between characters, however there does seem to be strong similarities and nods to original characters. From there you can look at the arcs of the originals and speculate what might happen for TFA characters. Rey and Luke do have some similarities, and to a lesser extent Anakin and Rey, but Rey to me was way more competent in her Force abilities in TFA than either Anakin in TPM or Luke was in ANH. I do have to wonder if there is a rhyme to these stories, if there is poetry, and TFA invited those comparisons by being so 'inspired' by ANH.

Technically you are right about switching sides between Vader and Finn, but that comparison just seems so off in light of how important Vader was the entire saga versus Finn. There wouldn't be any Finn fanboys in Episodes X-infinity like there is with Kylo Ren.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 30, 2016, 02:50:28 pm
http://www.thestreet.com/story/13408065/1/despite-what-you-ve-heard-disney-s-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-racist.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO (http://www.thestreet.com/story/13408065/1/despite-what-you-ve-heard-disney-s-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-racist.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO)

http://hannibaltabu.tumblr.com/post/135433506509/why-i-hated-star-wars-the-force-awakens (http://hannibaltabu.tumblr.com/post/135433506509/why-i-hated-star-wars-the-force-awakens)

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/29/star-wars-the-force-awakens-black-lives-matters-first-science-fiction-film (http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/29/star-wars-the-force-awakens-black-lives-matters-first-science-fiction-film)

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/29/the_star_wars_kids_arent_alright_the_movie_gets_millennials_right_our_fight_isnt_with_the_man_but_with_each_other/ (http://www.salon.com/2016/01/29/the_star_wars_kids_arent_alright_the_movie_gets_millennials_right_our_fight_isnt_with_the_man_but_with_each_other/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on April 07, 2016, 12:37:39 pm
Just when you thought the show was over...

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wji-BZ0oCwg#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Marvelous on April 07, 2016, 05:11:50 pm
Just when you thought the show was over...

! No longer available ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wji-BZ0oCwg#[/url])


Can believe people are bitching about another female lead...
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on April 08, 2016, 03:25:07 am

Can believe people are bitching about another female lead...



Are they?  ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 08, 2016, 04:55:57 am

Can believe people are bitching about another female lead...



Are they?  ???

This is America; there is always going to be someone complaining about something and finding like-minded people on the internet.  We could cure all disease someone would complain about it and others would agree.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on April 08, 2016, 11:44:38 am
Or maybe that folks are "bitching" about potentially having another Katniss on screen?

Better yet, Forest Whitaker is an Academy Award winning actor with three decades of critically acclaimed major and independent motion pictures under his belt. Donnie Yen is a talented actor and GLOBAL martial arts icon whose last film was the one who knocked the last Star Wars film out of the box office top spot IN ASIA. They appear in the trailer for seconds.

Kindly point out to me the trailer for a major blockbuster where a virtually unknown actress of color was pushed to the forefront to promote it over a white Academy darling and a bona-fide white box office star.

Hey but "bitching"
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on April 08, 2016, 05:05:47 pm
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs3sVrm_W4o&nohtml5=False#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on April 08, 2016, 05:38:24 pm
Or maybe that folks are "bitching" about potentially having another Katniss on screen?

Better yet, Forest Whitaker is an Academy Award winning actor with three decades of critically acclaimed major and independent motion pictures under his belt. Donnie Yen is a talented actor and GLOBAL martial arts icon whose last film was the one who knocked the last Star Wars film out of the box office top spot IN ASIA. They appear in the trailer for seconds.

Kindly point out to me the trailer for a major blockbuster where a virtually unknown actress of color was pushed to the forefront to promote it over a white Academy darling and a bona-fide white box office star.

Hey but "bitching"

Good points.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: mayday on May 07, 2016, 10:42:02 am
I feel duped, that brotha was every bug eyed, frightened coon there ever was. If this is inclusion, leave me out of it. I would've been fine with Peaches on monitor duty and shots of Julius and them flying X-Wings.

Finn got his name from a white man and then stole his jacket. After that he went white girl crazy, told her a bunch of lies to get her, when he finally did, he left her out in the cold and then went through hell trying to get her back.

I'm exaggerating a little bit, but not a whole lot. I was really disappointed dude was such whack sauce he ended up comatose and about the bait and switch with Luke's lightsaber. I get the symmetry of who you thought was going to be Han and who you thought was going to be Luke, were actually reversed, but overall it didn't sit well with me.

It also pissed me off that I kept waiting on Lupita Nyong'o and she played an unrecognizable shriveled orange peel lady that could have been anybody.

Speaking of anybody, anybody that couldn't tell Rey was dude's sister and Han and Leia's daughter, had to be as slow on the uptake as Finn. That's why she was so good with machinery like Anakin and kept using the force without knowing it.

And what was up with Gene Simmons grandson Kylo Ren? He had a hell of a noggin didn't he? He took that helmet off and I was like "Pleeeeease put your helmet back on". J.J. Abrams could have quit with the close-ups, the movie was already in I-Max 3D, I did not need to get that close to that man's ugly cranium. It was a head of it's time.

Did we really need a third Death Star with an easily exploitable weakness? The First Order and Empire are both slow learners. That was one too many trips down memory lane and it was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'd already tried to overlook the outrageous coincidences that coincided with the first film, like the droid with secrets wanted by the bad guys and the fortuitous way characters kept meeting up, but the super-sized Death Star really took me out of the movie.

All that's not to say I didn't enjoy it, because I did, but it could have been so much better and more original. I walked out angry and wishing the film was based on Timothy Zahn's books, they would have made a superior sequel.

Bruh, my thought exactly !
Pure TRASH....
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Francisco on August 02, 2016, 11:23:11 am
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 03, 2016, 02:25:05 am
Late to the party, but you came in swinging. I think because you can identify with Finn you are ignoring the negative aspects of the character and justifying your support by declaring all criticism as whining or bitching. Well that is your right, but I think many critics, myself included, laid out their reasons why Finn was a problematic character and why, addressing many of the things you raised.

The fact is they didn't pick Michael Cera or someone else, they picked Boyega. The fact is that there is a history of having blacks in these kinds of subservient roles, but either you don't know or don't care. Or likely you're just glad  to be included, which it sounds like to me. And it's telling that you were glad Finn wasn't in control. Even if you identify with Finn as a nerd-I am a nerd also-where is the power fantasy aspect to this character that other characters and groups (particularly in Force Awakens case-white women) get to enjoy? I mean when you look at some women who might identify with or feel empowered by Rey, you get to see Rey really overcome and kick ass, largely on her own, but yet you as a nerd of color (I'm assuming here) didn't want to see the same thing with Finn?

You were happy he didn't get the girl, pretty much lost every fight, and was in a coma by the end of the film? When I think of Urkel, perhaps the number one black nerd-he provides more of a power fantasy, an aspiration. He was an uber nerd, but he never quit, and eventually he got the girl. We even saw his alter ego, perhaps one many of us believe is really inside us. With Finn we saw a sweaty, fumbling, bumbling, at times useless, slave to the Empire (yes he was a slave. He had no name, he was a number, and Hux said that many of their soldiers were taken from birth; if that doesn't sound like slavery to you, please open a history book). Yes there were some flashes of bravery (particularly when Rey was in danger) and some flashes of independence (his desire to escape helped set a lot of things in motion), but I didn't care for Finn not being good at anything. At first I thought he was going to be a bad ass Stormtrooper, but no, this was like his first mission. And in a universe of super powerful, great people, Finn has no basic skills that aren't possessed by anyone else, unless you count the being Rey (or white girl) crazy.

White people get to see people who look like them be awesome all the time on the big screen, yet you're happy with Boyega here being a janitor, being a screw up? So maybe you need to turn that "low self esteem" mirror back in your direction.

Thank goodness we are starting to see more black creators making their own work, however I don't know how much the black masses have heard about it. Hopefully we will continue getting more in the genre and that they will get more support. And I certainly hope that Finn characters are not the culmination of those efforts. And if you do include a Finn that he is part of a tapestry of various black characters so we can see various types of characters. Finn is not a character I think needs to be emulated, and that's nothing against the actor, just the limited, distorted conception of the black character in the white imagination.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Francisco on August 03, 2016, 01:07:02 pm
How many women did Han Solo banged in episode 4? How many fights did he win? I only saw him murder Guido (he shot first)
If Finn isn't a character then Han Solo isn't a character either. Helping your friends and refusing to slaughter an entire village is not been subservient. What's so wrong about been a janitor? Contrabandist and murderer would have been better? Or a child killer like Anakim? A traitor and mass murderer like Kylo Ren? Finn overcame on his own and kicked ass on his own but just like Han Solo he just happens to not be the main character. those "critics" are just low self esteemed bitches looking for whatever reason to complain. If Luke were have been black they'd be complaining that he didn't get to f*ck anybody that he was emasculated. If it had been Obi Wan, the one who happen to be black they'd be complaining that they made him a magic negro or some other bullsh*t like, he was too old in order for him not to be perceived as sexually threatening to Princess Leia. It's all bullsh*t.

Finn destroyed space ships using the laser turrets of the millennium falcon just like Luke and Han did in episode 4. He got to use a lightsaber just like Han did in episode 4 but unlike Han he got the chance to fight against a powerful force user and held his own for awhile. He changed, he had an ark. Started out as someone controlled by fear (Not a coward) and then all over the course of the movie overcame said fear and turned into a hero. But who cares? Let's focus in the fact that he wasn't the sex machine digged by all the chicks.

JJ Abrams is white and so are the owners of Disney and so is the majority of the people who goes to watch the movies at the theatre. They owe you (or me for that matter) nothing. They didn't have to hire Boyega and they didn't have to include a single black person but they did it anyway. Why do white women get to have a competent hero? Because it is white people the one putting the money to make the movie. The only properties I've seen developed by black people are stuff about Religion, people dancing or some drug dealer who wants to own his own night club. 50 cent had the chance to develop something new and he chose to make it all about some dude selling drugs. I mean where's the effing imagination? If a white producer had come up with that idea they'll have crucified him for being racist. Now he is about to rip off Marvel's Luke Cage.

And yes I'm pissed off because everywhere I go, all I can see is black people bitching while doing nothing. Youtube, facebook, message boards everywhere online is black people bitching because there are no good black characters or because their favorite character was mistreated but no one is doing anything creative. There's no logical reason that at this moment there's not a single film studio in the United States that is owned by blacks and that is producing original material by and for black people and whoever else interested. Just whine, bitch and moan

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 03, 2016, 01:43:49 pm
I've discussed this issue, at length on this forum and I am not going to revisit all those arguments I made laying out my issues with Finn. No one said Finn isn't a character. I never said that. No one here has said he isn't a character, but the question is if he is a negative or problematic character where race is concerned. I think that he is. You don't. But I do find it curious that you seek to compare Finn to Han Solo, who is pretty much the coolest character in Star Wars to in your words (and my previous speculation) a nerd like Finn. Han is an Alpha. Finn is a Beta. On the surface right off that Han/Finn comparison is sketchy and when you look at both characters and there agency and impact Finn, Han comes out much better. You might be Finn but you know you want to actually be Han.

And would I have preferred Finn be a murdering bastard-well actually yeah I would've been okay with that. If he had been a bad ass Knight of Ren or Sith apprentice that would have been fine with me. Most Sith are either highly intelligent and/or good fighters so that would have been cool to see a black Sith Lord. So far there haven't been any black Sith or dark side users in live-action. The only one I can think of is Dician in the now discounted EU/Legends. Further all these comparisons you're making to 'prove' blacks are never satisfied are missing that all those characters are white. Star Wars has a ton of white characters so you get more variation, but if you're giving us one major black character per movie, per saga, yeah, I do want to see them handled well. And compared to Lando and Mace, Finn was very wanting. I don't think everything has to be super positive. But I do want a competent, capable hero or villain, one that is sexually active (whether shown or not), one that isn't a joke or a coward, that isn't useless or unimportant, because far too long there is a whole history of those kind of portrayals and Finn fit right into that dubious continuum.

As for your rant about what black people are or aren't doing,  I've heard this refrain before. Is there some merit in it? Sure. But at the same time this broadside ignores all the things black creators are doing. Some have their work (Hudlin himself hello?) featured on these forums, so the idea that black people are not creating things is not born out by the facts. Granted many don't have the marketing, reach, societal legitimacy, and money machine that obviously many white creators have to inform people of their work or to show it to mass domestic audiences and globally. And while Abrams owes me nothing-which is true-that doesn't make him immune from criticism because he certainly would like my dollars. So if he wants my dollars he will get the criticism that comes along with that. I don't like the idea that black people should mutely accept whatever white people project about us. Do you think that the people who protested against the media portrayal of blacks back in the day, or of shows like Amos N' Andy should've just shut up and accepted what was given to them? I don't.

There are reasons for why conditions are the way they are, structural reasons, financial reasons. Racism still exists. That doesn't mean we should quit or throw in the towel but I do think we have to be honest about the history and the continuing challenges. The pull yourself up by the bootstrap thing sounds nice, unless you realize you don't have any boots. But I will say some of the issues are because of conditioning or training. We are taught to get good jobs for white corporations more so than creating and running businesses and I think in Hollywood that mentality is present there too. Still that doesn't excuse white Hollywood if they create egregious or racist images of black people from any criticism. I'm no doing hosannas because they hired Boyega. I would rather they didn't if they were going to put in a role like that. If you aren't going to do it right, don't do it all. I'm not of the mind anymore that there has to be a black person in this or that. Sure I like it when I see some representation. But I've become more cognizant that its the kind of representation too that is more important than just having a black face up in something. And while Abrams doesn't owe me anything I am disappointed with Finn also in light of how decent to well Abrams has handled over black characters in other projects of his I've watched (Alias, Undercovers, Star Trek, Mission Impossible 3), so compared to that Finn feels especially like a retrogression.

Is there a lack of imagination at times from some black creators? Yes. Is there some lowest common denominator stuff occurring? Unfortunately yes, but I get why that might be the case. Its like someone just has to have that breakout black led sci-fi hit to get imitators and so far we haven't had that. It's easier and cheaper to put out the kinds of content you mentioned and audiences have been receptive to it, almost conditioned to accept this as the only form of entertainment available so many have embraced it. Its hard to dream of the future when you are trying to pay your rent and ends meet on a daily basis. And the lowest common denominator things happen too with white Hollywood but its like when whites catch a cold, blacks catch pneumonia. I've never made a film so I have no idea all the crap people have to go through to get funding, especially before the crowdfunding era, the compromises that have to be made.

But back to an earlier point. There is content out there but you're going to have to look for it unfortunately. On You Tube I've found Costumed Vigilante Nation, an old series but it showed promise and featured a collection of  multiracial, but heavily black superheroes. There was also one episode of the Black Tiger series-which I hope they make more. A superhero series created by a black man but features an Asian lead. There's black sci-fi and fantasy, there's black indie comics. It's out there but a lot of people don't know that. There's Afrofuturism, if you look into that you will find all kinds of genre stuff with black creators or sensibility. And on and on.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Vic Vega on August 04, 2016, 07:07:40 am
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 04, 2016, 07:12:04 am
My problem with Finn was the bait and switch marketing.

Honestly... I don't care enough about star wars to be too worked up about it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Francisco on August 04, 2016, 08:13:41 am
In retrospective I think the main misconception is to think of Finn as a black character or a representation of black people as a whole. Yes he is played by a black actor but there's nothing inherently black about him. He is a fictional character who happens to be played by a black actor.

Han comes off as an alpha because even in the original trilogy he was way older than Finn. He was almost 30 at the time while Finn is 19. Change Han's skin color and age and we'll have almost the same character and almost the same complaints from the-never-satisfied-the-world-is-out-to-get-us-crowd. Why did Han had to be a smuggler? Why he shoot Greedo first, why did he got frozen in carbonite? Why didn't he escape on his own? I can see the whining no matter what character they had made black. There's not a single character in Star Wars that is perfect and that wouldn't fit in the-because-racism-narrative.

The way I see it there's enough space in fiction for rookies like Finn and badasses silent type warriors like Mace Windu.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 05, 2016, 04:34:48 pm
In retrospective I think the main misconception is to think of Finn as a black character or a representation of black people as a whole. Yes he is played by a black actor but there's nothing inherently black about him. He is a fictional character who happens to be played by a black actor.

Han comes off as an alpha because even in the original trilogy he was way older than Finn. He was almost 30 at the time while Finn is 19. Change Han's skin color and age and we'll have almost the same character and almost the same complaints from the-never-satisfied-the-world-is-out-to-get-us-crowd. Why did Han had to be a smuggler? Why he shoot Greedo first, why did he got frozen in carbonite? Why didn't he escape on his own? I can see the whining no matter what character they had made black. There's not a single character in Star Wars that is perfect and that wouldn't fit in the-because-racism-narrative.

The way I see it there's enough space in fiction for rookies like Finn and badasses silent type warriors like Mace Windu.

I think its an issue of perspective. When you have so few characters black or non-white in these kind of films, or as prominent, then yes I think the one-or main-non-white character does take on outsize importance. With The Force Awakens Finn was the most prominent black character and there was one black female who has a backstory but I don't think she any lines and got an extended cameo during the destruction of Hosnian Prime.

I do think there was a lot 'black' about Finn, a distorted view of what black people are. His mugging, his bumbling, his incompetence, his deceit, and his love of white women (Rey), his being the comic relief, his willingness to forgo his own goals and sacrifice himself for white people. His being a janitor, a domestic, all of those are roles or ideas that have been ascribed to blacks in Hollywood. So to me whenever the decision to have Boyega play Finn I wonder if that led to other changes, or did how they eventually conceived of the character make Finn more amenable for a black actor? Even Lando with the pimp cape and the player persona, someone not particularly trustworthy, a shady-and unworthy-competitor for Leia's affections. And Samuel L. Jackson told Lucas he wanted to be in a Star Wars film so bad that he didn't care what role he played, even a slave. And Lucas thought he was hiding some old dubious stereotypes behind CGI and makeup with Jar Jar, Nemoidians, Watto, but he got called out for it.

Racism is baked into the cake of Star Wars. I'm not saying that its virulent or even always intentional, but Lucas drew on old Hollywood serials and stories, among others, and you're telling me that some of that source material was not racist? Heck, I think he even took the last big awards ceremony in the Rebel base in A New Hope from a pro-Nazi film or filmmaker. And JJ Abrams, while being a good director, doesn't seem to be that much of an originator. He's good at putting a film together but not so much with the vision or making a unique vision. He just combines old things in interesting ways at times. And TFA was just a regurgitation of A New Hope in particular.


I agree with you that there is enough room for Finn and Mace Windu, but the Finn pill would easier to swallow if you didn't have one main black character per each section of the saga thus far. If you have more than one, you can see other sides and other perspectives. Though I was better with both Mace and Lando than I was with Finn. Neither character was perfect, both had shades of gray, but so far they were more competent than Finn. I don't want a sweaty, stumbling, and bumbling black guy beside a kickass totally awesome white girl, a dashing super great Latino pilot, and a conflict, whiny, though he killed Han, white guy.

Your Han example to me illustrates that you got different varieties of white characters in the original series and throughout Star Wars, and movies/books in general. You got good, bad, in between, and you get tons of white characters.

Also, Han's age has nothing to do with his alpha male status. I'm sure you knew plenty of guys in high school or college, heck, probably earlier than that, that were alpha males. I do think Han's swagger does come from Harrison Ford, his matinee looks as well. Boyega is a good actor, but he's not a matinee looking dude. I mean they could've cast Michael B. Jordan for example and gotten perhaps a Ford or Billy Dee Williams kind of vibe, but they wanted Boyega because he was less of a sexual "threat". And some of us fanboys are eating it up, thinking they we are finally being 'represented', well I don't see it that way. It's the kind of representation that I am more concerned about.

And your hypothetical scenarios we'll never know because Han wasn't played by a black actor. The closest we got to that was Lando and he was definitely a supporting player, and they couldn't even find a role for him to play in TFA. Han did not shoot Greedo first, Lucas said it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 05, 2016, 04:39:35 pm
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.

Luke defeated the Rancor and he defeated Vader (though it is arguable that Vadr stopped fighting him) in Return of the Jedi. Further than that he is one-half of the team that took out the freaking Death Star in A New Hope. He also was instrumental in shutting down the Emperor and saving the day at the battle of Endor. Do you think Vader would have turned if not for Luke? And if Vader hadn't turned, the Emperor likely would have won because no one was prepared for his trap? Finn, despite being a janitor, was a trained soldier with far more military experience than Luke when Luke started out in A New Hope.

Beyond the fighting, the original trilogy was largely about Luke and his journey into manhood and becoming a Jedi. The new films are not about Finn. They are about Rey, so I don't think the Luke comparison works. That doesn't mean Finn won't have an arc, but the fate of the universe will not hang on Finn. If anything Finn's arc has concluded at the end of The Force Awakens, and he will just be a tag-a-long character, too valuable to get rid of due to diversity points and Boyega's infectious enthusiasm.

Finn's refusal to follow orders was brave on his part. I do think the character had flashes of bravery but to say that that refusal was greater than what Luke did? Or Han did is really overselling things. Both Luke and Han had to overcome their darker natures, impulses, as Finn has done thus far, but I would argue that definitely with Luke it was for a higher purpose than chasing a woman who isn't giving you the time of day anyway, like Finn. Finn is a simp.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Vic Vega on August 24, 2016, 08:00:52 am
Finn is a great character he was created to represent us nerds. He is not a runaway slave or a coon or whatever bullsh*t made up by low self esteemed whinners. If they had hired Michael Cera, Jesse Eisenberg or any other white nerdy looking actor, there wouldn't be any complaints. Am I crazy?? Of course there would be complaints, moaning and bitching about them not hiring enough people of color and ignoring minorities. Hell, Disney originally wanted to hire the guy from Kingsman, to play the part but JJ Abrams convinced them of hiring Boyega and the kid hitted it out of the park. I'm glad he didn't turn out to be some badass silent type warrior or a genius or some other over the top nonsense. He was like me. A normal guy in the middle of extraordinary events, overcoming fear and doing extraordinary things. I'm glad that he at no point came off as been in control, I'm glad he sweated all over the place (they were in the desert after all) I'm glad he was insecure, I'm glad he had to exert himself and learn to do things. I'm glad he was a complex character. And I'm glad he has my complexion. I'm glad that even though, they didn't have to, Disney hired a black actor to play the part. I hope one day instead of complaining, like little bitches a group of black artists/filmmakers can create something similar. Cause at the moment all I can hear and see is people bitching every time someone else does something and excuses for why they are not doing anything.

I'm not quite this mad yet, but I kinda agree to a certain extent.

Finn was meant to start out as the everyman in space they just happened to cast a Black dude to play him (Boyega beat out two other White actors for the role). Once they did that it heads brought thier role model masculinty check lists to the fray.

That Luke Skywalker never won a melee fight in 3 movies(He stopped fighting Vader, then he got worked by the Emperor til Vader saved HIM) doesn't matter to the pissed off heads. Nor does the stuff about Finn's morals(refusing to take part in war crimes is far more heroic than anything Han or Luke does in ANH) compared to Han's morals matter either.

He doesn't have enough feats of asskicking and at no time does any woman want to f*ck him so he's an embarassment.

God help the poor sap who ever tries to recast Ron Weasly as a brother the way Hermione got recast for Broadway.

Luke defeated the Rancor and he defeated Vader (though it is arguable that Vadr stopped fighting him) in Return of the Jedi. Further than that he is one-half of the team that took out the freaking Death Star in A New Hope. He also was instrumental in shutting down the Emperor and saving the day at the battle of Endor. Do you think Vader would have turned if not for Luke? And if Vader hadn't turned, the Emperor likely would have won because no one was prepared for his trap? Finn, despite being a janitor, was a trained soldier with far more military experience than Luke when Luke started out in A New Hope.

Beyond the fighting, the original trilogy was largely about Luke and his journey into manhood and becoming a Jedi. The new films are not about Finn. They are about Rey, so I don't think the Luke comparison works. That doesn't mean Finn won't have an arc, but the fate of the universe will not hang on Finn. If anything Finn's arc has concluded at the end of The Force Awakens, and he will just be a tag-a-long character, too valuable to get rid of due to diversity points and Boyega's infectious enthusiasm.

Finn's refusal to follow orders was brave on his part. I do think the character had flashes of bravery but to say that that refusal was greater than what Luke did? Or Han did is really overselling things. Both Luke and Han had to overcome their darker natures, impulses, as Finn has done thus far, but I would argue that definitely with Luke it was for a higher purpose than chasing a woman who isn't giving you the time of day anyway, like Finn. Finn is a simp.

Luke wanted off of Tatooine mainly because he was bored and wanted adventure. His moral stance against the empire was summed up in one line of dialogue. "Sure I hate the empire.." or something like that. He didn't have real stakes til his aunt and Uncle were killed.

And frankly Luke seemed way more upset about losing Ben than he did the folks that raised him.

Finn refused to take part in a war crime. Then escaped/deserted  with a POW who had been tourtured (and was gonna be killed). Not cosigning with mass murderers is heroic especially when it can get you killed yourself.

Since deserters tend to get shot out of hand if caught.

People also forget that Luke was crushing on Action Girl Leia up until the point that she was revealed to be his sister.  She doesn't show much more interest in Han either in A New Hope.

But Finn's a simp for not getting farther with Action Girl Rey in part one of this new trilogy than Luke or Han got with Action Girl Leia at the same comparable point of the Original Trilogy.

That makes no sense to me. At all.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 24, 2016, 03:19:14 pm
Luke might have liked Leia but he wasn't trailing behind her like a sick puppy, screaming her name like Finn did for Rey. And Han and Leia were just feeling each other, talking crap to each other in A New Hope (likely a sparring, flirtatious banter). I can't say that romance was that big a deal for A New Hope, whereas Finn definitely was feeling Rey in a way I don't it was shown that Luke or Han was feeling Leia in A New Hope. We know Han was a pimp in Empire with the "I know" line. Finn changed his whole plan of running away once he saw she had been captured.

If you look back throughout my long posts on this subject I said at some point that Finn did display some positive attributes, though I feel they were overshadowed by the cooning and the simping. It was brave of him to refuse to commit a war crime, it was brave for him to escape, and it was brave for him to alter his plan to help Rey in the end. That being said, I think the character was too defined by wanting to run away-it was displayed as fear way too much-and the idea of a black person sacrificing their lives for a white person in cinema is not new and something I'm not cheering about.

The film went through a checklist of negative black cinematic portrayals for Finn: slave, domestic, not really good at anything/a screw up, comic relief, eunuch. It was just too much. Give me Mace or Lando any day of the week. Or heck, don't give me a black character at all if you are just going to saddle them with tired depictions.

Luke wanted adventure sure. It was the hero's quest. He wasn't as personally connected to things going in the galaxy because he was on a backwater planet, but does that make him any less heroic? If Finn was living on Jakku and had not been a soldier of the Empire do you really think he would've gotten involved from what you saw of him in TFA? He wanted to run away, get away from it all. Finn was motivated by his conscience but also his fear and his desire for self-preservation and his unrequited feelings for Rey. Luke was motivated by a desire to do and be more than what society had set out for him. Luke was more selfless than Finn to be honest.

As for Luke feeling more upset about the loss of his uncle and aunt, there was some emotion there for what I recall, but yes, he did feel Ben's loss more-just like the audience. So I chalk that up to the direction and the pacing. They didn't dwell on Luke's grief. Or rather he turned his grief into action. I mean you say Luke was unfeeling and then you seem to have an issue with him taking his relatives' murder as motivation to get involved. Arguably he was already headed down that path but their murder pushed him over, plus it freed him from Tatoonine and his obligations there.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on November 25, 2016, 09:59:22 am
Finally got a chance to see Star Wars: The Force Awakens!

Very exciting, cinematic 'love letter' to all the fans... including George himself.

If this movie is true to form, I have a funny feeling we haven't seen the last of Han Solo. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 25, 2016, 11:15:27 am
^
I don't think it was a love letter to George Lucas. He seemed pretty glum over Disney's treatment of him. He even compared Disney to white slavers in how they treated him. I also read that Disney rejected Lucas's Episode 7 ideas. Besides that, I don't see TFA as a love letter so much as a too slavish recreation of ANH, perhaps with some ESB thrown in.

As for Han Solo, Ford might show up in flashbacks, but he's not a Jedi or Force sensitive, so it is highly unlikely he will appear as a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy. I don't think Ford liked the Han Solo role and is happy to be rid of it. That being said, money does talk. Now for the young Han Solo film I could see them using Ford as a bookend, perhaps he starts off the film remembering his past, and it goes back to the younger Han, and then they bring it back to the present with Ford again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on November 28, 2016, 04:57:03 am
^
I don't think it was a love letter to George Lucas. He seemed pretty glum over Disney's treatment of him. He even compared Disney to white slavers in how they treated him. I also read that Disney rejected Lucas's Episode 7 ideas. Besides that, I don't see TFA as a love letter so much as a too slavish recreation of ANH, perhaps with some ESB thrown in.


'Love letter' means fan created.
Haven't heard nor read anything from Mr. Lucas regarding feedback about the movie mainly because I traditionally avoid any info on a new Star Wars feature until I view the movie first-hand, however, I do understand why he may feel that way.


As for Han Solo, Ford might show up in flashbacks, but he's not a Jedi or Force sensitive, so it is highly unlikely he will appear as a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy. I don't think Ford liked the Han Solo role and is happy to be rid of it. That being said, money does talk. Now for the young Han Solo film I could see them using Ford as a bookend, perhaps he starts off the film remembering his past, and it goes back to the younger Han, and then they bring it back to the present with Ford again.


In The Force Awakens, Han Solo does admit to Finn and Ray that everything he doubt about the Force in the past was wrong, so now he's Force attuned, which means more possibilities for more character development. ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 28, 2016, 11:25:08 am
^
Force sensitive is a term used in Star Wars to mean someone who can use the Force like a Jedi or Sith; not always like they do, but someone who can wield the Force on some level. Acknowledging the existence of the Force is not the same thing as being Force sensitive. A lot of characters in Star Wars acknowledge that the Force exists but can't use it like a tool like we have seen the Jedi and Sith do.

As for love letter, I've also seen one-time Trek honchos Rick Berman and Brannon Braga say they made a 'love letter' to the fans with the finale episode of Star Trek Enterprise, so the idea of a love letter is not solely the province of fans. It can be top down. And that 'love letter' was not well received by a great number of Trek/Enterprise fans. As for TFA, JJ Abrams is an unabashed fan, and there were quite a few homages to previous Star Wars in TFA, and IMO, too many.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on November 29, 2016, 05:39:15 am
^
Force sensitive is a term used in Star Wars to mean someone who can use the Force like a Jedi or Sith; not always like they do, but someone who can wield the Force on some level. Acknowledging the existence of the Force is not the same thing as being Force sensitive. A lot of characters in Star Wars acknowledge that the Force exists but can't use it like a tool like we have seen the Jedi and Sith do.


That's exactly what Force attuned means.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 29, 2016, 02:39:40 pm
Battle,

You disputed my definition of Force sensitive and I told you what that meant. I didn't say anything about Force attuned, however the main source for Star Wars I refer to, Wookieepedia, has both, and Han is Force attuned, but he is not Force sensitive. As for the definition of what Force attunement means, it is more than acknowledging the Force exists, its having some deeper connection to the Force than the average person, but not strong enough to be Force sensitive or a Jedi or Sith or a Force user. And from live-action I've seen nothing that shows that Han Solo shows any hint of Force powers. Granted we could chalk up his amazing piloting ability and his luck to his connection to the Force, but then again, that could just be he is a very good pilot and a very lucky guy. Also his acknowledgement and belief now in the Force is too surprising since he's married into perhaps the strongest family of Force users ever. I can see how that would change his beliefs.

That being said, Han's force attunement and his daughter's speculation that he could actually be mildly Force sensitive are referenced under the "Legends" category which is no longer canon in Star Wars. Force sensitive is under both the "Legends" and "Canon" labels, and remains a canon description. The canon gatekeepers of Star Wars can change that at any time though and make Han force attuned officially or even Force sensitive if they want, but as it currently stands, I have not seen anything that proves Han is Force sensitive and I am skeptical that he is Force attuned based on the films. Granted, I have not read all of the canon comics and novels that might say otherwise, but as it stands, I'm confident that Han is not Force sensitive.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force-sensitive (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force-sensitive)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force-attunement (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force-attunement)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on December 01, 2016, 09:57:26 am
In The Force Awakens, there's a great shot of Captain Solo entering the cockpit of the Millennium Falcon for the first time in, goodness knows, how long...  All the while, I'm thinking,

"But Han, it's not really your ship...
--it's Lando's!" ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 01, 2016, 01:09:23 pm
^
We might get to see how Han got the ship from Lando in the Young Han Solo film coming up.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on December 01, 2016, 03:32:14 pm
^
We might get to see how Han got the ship from Lando in the Young Han Solo film coming up.




Fascinating!
 :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Battle on November 25, 2017, 11:03:27 am
Y'know...  with each viewing of 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', gets better and better.

Far better than 'Rogue One' which is the least exciting Star Wars movie I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 03, 2018, 06:27:00 pm
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L1QSYq2pUQ#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens reviewed (with spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 11, 2018, 05:03:50 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-reveals-an-alternate-ending-for-jj-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens-a156939 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-reveals-an-alternate-ending-for-jj-abrams-star-wars-the-force-awakens-a156939)