Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Ture on April 05, 2016, 11:56:45 pm

Title: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 05, 2016, 11:56:45 pm
The WAKANDAN AND THE AFRAKAN
 Reconciliation of a Double Consciousness


(http://41.media.tumblr.com/2df76de25c918b13d7e7b8e8a2f6278c/tumblr_mqv7phbKe51qbf9kso1_1280.jpg)

W. E. B. Du Bois used the term Double-Consciousness to describe how American Afrakans look at themselves through the eyes of others particularly European Americans aka white people. He spoke of measuring one’s soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. The American Afrakan ever feels their two-ness,—an American, a Afrakn; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings; two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.

This specific malady did not infect the Wakandan. No unreconciled strivings, no warring ideals, just one dark body perfected by an insular autonomy. The Black Panther being the living embodiment of this perfection.

As the new age of the Black Panther officially starts the architects of the forthcoming iterations should be mindful of the narrative that so defines the Black Panther and his nation of Wakanda. This will require an ever fading attention on slavery, racism, civil rights, cultural oppression, poverty, homosexuality, police brutality and inter racial pairings.

This epoch if to be taken serious must center on the continental and diasporac expressions of self liberation, ethnic unification, sovereign rights, traditional and contemporary cultural expressions, natural resources and their true wealth, the family institution, community development and the unicity of Afrakan women and men. These are the hallmarks that will chart the maturity of the architect and define how well evolved their sensibilities have become. 

Thus I speak of the Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki... Ta-Nehisi Coates' New Black Panther.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 06, 2016, 09:11:44 am
Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 06, 2016, 10:57:45 am
Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.

My LCS is opening soon and my copy is already reserved. I already mused that...while I'm not loving yet another Wakandan Civil War idea...it can be an incredible engine in the right hands; and Coates is one of five writers ( CJP, RH, MCDUFFIE, COATES, GREVIOUX ) that I would off top trust to handle TChalla right in a Civil War.

I really hope Shuri TSyan TChan and Ramonda are alive. I really hope none of them are genuinely plotting against TChalla.

I predicted this when I heard Coates got this gig, and I'm gonna say it again: these first 12 issues are gonna be crazy ill.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Booshman on April 06, 2016, 01:25:52 pm
Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.

While the Wakandan internal battles theme isn't my favorite, and is trite at this point, Coates at least wrote it in a manner that made it quite palatable. I look forward to reading the 2nd issue.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 06, 2016, 02:42:57 pm
I don't buy monthlies any more; prefer to wait until the trades but I was going to buy issue one, until I saw the five dollar price tag.  Guess I will wait to the trades after all.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: CKW on April 06, 2016, 04:50:55 pm
Beyond the Trailer reviews Coates' Black Panther 1(spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY)
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Booshman on April 06, 2016, 06:58:00 pm
Beyond the Trailer reviews Coates' Black Panther 1(spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY)

It's funny, because the people in her video pretty much said that she has no idea what she's talking about, and that her review had the opposite effect on them. That was the overwhelming consensus. That the (very superficial and short-sighted) complaints she had are over the things that they actually liked.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 06, 2016, 06:58:42 pm
Is this where we post our thoughts on Issue #1 and beyond?

My thoughts....The artwork is great. Not sure about the story yet. Coates has presented a lot of problems for T'Challa to deal with, he's having to face a lot of failure so hopefully he won't be hapless and ineffectual for long. I'm not sure about the Dora Milaje part. I don't want Coates to make T'Challa into a misogynist (a charge black men are often labeled with IMO). So for me, an okay start. The jury is still out. 
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: bluezulu on April 06, 2016, 07:38:35 pm
Hello faithful, old heads, and those I have not met. I will pick this up tomorrow and give it a read. It has been a while but I am hoping that one of my favorite writers and current black thinkers can get me back in.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 06, 2016, 07:44:33 pm
Is this where we post our thoughts on Issue #1 and beyond?

My thoughts....The artwork is great. Not sure about the story yet. Coates has presented a lot of problems for T'Challa to deal with, he's having to face a lot of failure so hopefully he won't be hapless and ineffectual for long. I'm not sure about the Dora Milaje part. I don't want Coates to make T'Challa into a misogynist (a charge black men are often labeled with IMO). So for me, an okay start. The jury is still out. 

I sincerely hope this will be the thread where we discuss the all things Damisa-Sarki. We are in agreement concerning the verdict.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 06, 2016, 07:48:26 pm
Hello faithful, old heads, and those I have not met. I will pick this up tomorrow and give it a read. It has been a while but I am hoping that one of my favorite writers and current black thinkers can get me back in.

We will see. In any regard I look forward to your insights Blue.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Kimoyo on April 06, 2016, 08:51:35 pm
Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.

S P O I L E R S ! ! !

Cautious optimism...as usual I am right with you brother!  I must say the book oozes a luxurious quality.  The sumptuous art lives up to the glimpses we've been afforded thus far.  Whatever your take on the subject matter, the writing is an able compliment to the art, or vice versa?  On first read it would seem Coates and Marvel, however altruistically, are providing a view of Wakanda that may just bolster BP sales figures by appealing to an emerging, previously unsolicited demographic...female consumers - - newcomers and established fans alike.  With the Dora prominently featured up front and throughout, the Midnight Angels, Ramonda (nice to get clarification on the relationship), and...Shuri...Coates presents the women of Wakanda as three dimensional characters with presence and voice and there's a female bad as well.

The book feels rich even compared to the credible work being done in Ultimates!  Unfortunately, I'm not rich so, I hope the $4.99 price tag is an anomaly; I didn't even realize it until Kip brought it up!  Fortunately, one of my LCSs offers a discount to customers during their birthday month!  Truth be told, the rich quality and nice extras made the elevated price less bitter of a pill. 

All in all, a promising start as despite more internal Wakandan strife, we see it is clearly the result of foreign, super-powered influence and we get to see what T'Challa is attempting to do to resuscitate Wakanda and...... Shuri.  Essentially, if Coates T'Challa can turn Wakanda's current situation around, perhaps we'll have something?

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 06, 2016, 09:47:52 pm
Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.

While the Wakandan internal battles theme isn't my favorite, and is trite at this point, Coates at least wrote it in a manner that made it quite palatable. I look forward to reading the 2nd issue.

My thoughts exactly Booshman.


Coates has left no doubt he can write a comic book. Black Panther #1 was a good read. Stelfreeze's art was eye candy. The reveal at the end was satisfying to behold though it begs a major question. Still not a fan of the Wakandan on Wakandan violence as I would prefer a Wakanda against the world theme (not literally the planet but external threats). I think we have something positive to talk about once more people get to read the comic book later on today.

My LCS is opening soon and my copy is already reserved. I already mused that...while I'm not loving yet another Wakandan Civil War idea...it can be an incredible engine in the right hands; and Coates is one of five writers ( CJP, RH, MCDUFFIE, COATES, GREVIOUX ) that I would off top trust to handle TChalla right in a Civil War.

I really hope Shuri TSyan TChan and Ramonda are alive. I really hope none of them are genuinely plotting against TChalla.

I predicted this when I heard Coates got this gig, and I'm gonna say it again: these first 12 issues are gonna be crazy ill.

No spoilers from me yet, try to give others time to read the book. Looking forward to seeing what you got to say once you read it Supreme.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 06, 2016, 09:53:24 pm
ROLL CALL

Salustrade
Sinjection 1
Maxine Shaw
Seven
Mastermind
Emperorjones
4sake
Vic Vega
True Father 7
DJfunkyPuddle
Tahdigga
Daoud
Blue Zulu
Zeraze
BPStorm4ever
Curtis Metcalf
and of course Reginald Hudlin.


We got a new Black Panther series... What Ya'll Think?

PS

You too Ezyo and anyone I inadvertently missed.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 07, 2016, 02:05:06 am
Beyond the Trailer reviews Coates' Black Panther 1(spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY)

Thanks for posting. I think Randolph makes some points about the writing that I am okay with. I disagree with her dislike of the art. The art I had no problem with. I also had read one volume of her Supurbia comic and if that was the same artist she's hyping the art was not as good as Black Panther. But I think she made some good points about the writing and the lack of a main character in the first issue.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: True Father 7 on April 07, 2016, 02:31:54 am
Is this where we post our thoughts on Issue #1 and beyond?

My thoughts....The artwork is great. Not sure about the story yet. Coates has presented a lot of problems for T'Challa to deal with, he's having to face a lot of failure so hopefully he won't be hapless and ineffectual for long. I'm not sure about the Dora Milaje part. I don't want Coates to make T'Challa into a misogynist (a charge black men are often labeled with IMO). So for me, an okay start. The jury is still out.

I was so hyped for this that I blindly bought it along with all the variants and then got home read it............and was disgusted. There wasn't even an indigenous Afrikan word for gay or homosexual before you know what so to see that ish in my fav comic character's book......I guess I can still read it to my daughters and just reiterate how that type of behavior is not right and exact and produces nothing but I hate that I have to do that but that is the world we live in. Nothing against homosexuals but I am against the proliferation of homosexuality. I'm hoping Ayo and Aneka DO get killed early so that ish won't keep popping up in the book. I guess everything else was cool, kinda echo's the Panther's Prey story by McGregor and Turner with the female baddie and her love interest? And of course the reveal at the end, now's a good time to catch up on Infinity and Time Runs Out to see what Thanos did to my girl.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 07, 2016, 04:41:04 am
Is this where we post our thoughts on Issue #1 and beyond?

My thoughts....The artwork is great. Not sure about the story yet. Coates has presented a lot of problems for T'Challa to deal with, he's having to face a lot of failure so hopefully he won't be hapless and ineffectual for long. I'm not sure about the Dora Milaje part. I don't want Coates to make T'Challa into a misogynist (a charge black men are often labeled with IMO). So for me, an okay start. The jury is still out.

I was so hyped for this that I blindly bought it along with all the variants and then got home read it............and was disgusted. There wasn't even an indigenous Afrikan word for gay or homosexual before you know what so to see that ish in my fav comic character's book......I guess I can still read it to my daughters and just reiterate how that type of behavior is not right and exact and produces nothing but I hate that I have to do that but that is the world we live in. Nothing against homosexuals but I am against the proliferation of homosexuality. I'm hoping Ayo and Aneka DO get killed early so that ish won't keep popping up in the book. I guess everything else was cool, kinda echo's the Panther's Prey story by McGregor and Turner with the female baddie and her love interest? And of course the reveal at the end, now's a good time to catch up on Infinity and Time Runs Out to see what Thanos did to my girl.

After the storm the creators of 100 are facing after killing a Lesbian character, Marvel would probably change that even if it was intended.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 07, 2016, 06:51:41 am
Beyond the Trailer reviews Coates' Black Panther 1(spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ieY7-sBkY)

It's funny, because the people in her video pretty much said that she has no idea what she's talking about, and that her review had the opposite effect on them. That was the overwhelming consensus. That the (very superficial and short-sighted) complaints she had are over the things that they actually liked.

Yea tat was a painful watch, you know when its like someone is just trying to fund something to complain about? Thats how it felt there, and really just felt like she just didn't have an idea of anything about BP. Like why make a review about something you know nothing about. Also i cringed when she kept saying Coates name wrong lol.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Booshman on April 07, 2016, 11:23:28 am

Yea tat was a painful watch, you know when its like someone is just trying to fund something to complain about? Thats how it felt there, and really just felt like she just didn't have an idea of anything about BP. Like why make a review about something you know nothing about. Also i cringed when she kept saying Coates name wrong lol.

Yeah, she just came across as someone who was desperately trying to nitpick.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: True Father 7 on April 07, 2016, 12:21:28 pm
Is this where we post our thoughts on Issue #1 and beyond?

My thoughts....The artwork is great. Not sure about the story yet. Coates has presented a lot of problems for T'Challa to deal with, he's having to face a lot of failure so hopefully he won't be hapless and ineffectual for long. I'm not sure about the Dora Milaje part. I don't want Coates to make T'Challa into a misogynist (a charge black men are often labeled with IMO). So for me, an okay start. The jury is still out.

I was so hyped for this that I blindly bought it along with all the variants and then got home read it............and was disgusted. There wasn't even an indigenous Afrikan word for gay or homosexual before you know what so to see that ish in my fav comic character's book......I guess I can still read it to my daughters and just reiterate how that type of behavior is not right and exact and produces nothing but I hate that I have to do that but that is the world we live in. Nothing against homosexuals but I am against the proliferation of homosexuality. I'm hoping Ayo and Aneka DO get killed early so that ish won't keep popping up in the book. I guess everything else was cool, kinda echo's the Panther's Prey story by McGregor and Turner with the female baddie and her love interest? And of course the reveal at the end, now's a good time to catch up on Infinity and Time Runs Out to see what Thanos did to my girl.

After the storm the creators of 100 are facing after killing a Lesbian character, Marvel would probably change that even if it was intended.

100?
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 07, 2016, 03:02:17 pm
^
The 100 is a sci-fi show on The CW. But I feel what you're saying about this new development in Black Panther. I got a feeling that racism, colonialism, and imperialism will take a back seat to black male sexism and promotion of alternative lifestyles, something more trendy and in keeping with mollifying liberal, homosexual, and feminist sentiments if the book continues along this line.

I don't agree with what Randolph said in her video about the art, but I can feel what she's saying about the writing. Even Coates admits at the back of the book that he doesn't know if this will suck or not. It's his first time. So I have to wonder if you are a new reader to Panther, did this issue make you want to see more? T'Challa is beset by problems and mostly ineffectual in addressing them-right off the bat Wakanda is associated with failure, Ramonda is draconian, there was more time spent on the Dora Milaje relationship (not to mention knocking Panther in the process) than on a sexual/romantic relationship involving Panther. Did this book make Panther's actions and Panther look bad ass? Did it do enough to hook casual readers, like I'm assuming Randolph is? I would say no.

Perhaps I'm being too harsh. I've already subscribed and I'm willing to see how this goes. But I do see signs of trouble. I mean when Coates said in an earlier interview that race would not be something he would address immediately, and who knows how long, yet we get possible T'Challa (black male) sexism I was worried. I later heard about the homosexual relationship before picking up the book and started suspecting what time it was. T'Challa does not belong to us, I got to remind myself. He belongs to Marvel and they are going to use him as how they see fit.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 07, 2016, 04:10:39 pm
Here is the challenge:  it is hard to write social conscious stories in comics, because superhero Comics are their core either kid's stories or escapism.  It isn't too say it can't be done, but a) it is hard to balance both and B) keep the audience interested.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 07, 2016, 05:02:00 pm
I don't know if its that hard to write socially conscious stories in comics Kip. It depends on what you're commenting about. If its something that the assumed majority of comic book fans/readers would likely agree with, its not 'preaching'. But if its something they don't want to hear, it is preaching.

That being said, perhaps it is hard for mainstream superhero comics to be overtly socially conscious outside of mainstream norms. That being said, I think the wide embrace of homosexuality among many shaping public opinion is not as controversial as it once would have been. And Coates's had no problem writing two gay characters into this first issue and giving them quite a bit of face time. This will likely be celebrated by many-blacks, whites, in the media, and all over. So it won't be considered 'preaching'.

I don't think comics are necessarily kid stories or simply escapism. I think there are deeper themes-which I'm not always aware of but like when someone deeper than me points them out-in comics. The general perception among the largely non-comic book reading audience might consider comics kids stuff today, but heck even in the Golden Age you had Wonder Woman and her bondage issues and Batman killing criminals. And as books are now geared more directly toward teenagers and adults the stories are more complex.

I do think it is hard to have something to say yet keep the audience interested. It is a balancing act. But is it really a greater one than having nothing to say but keeping an audience interested? It's just having nothing to say is less controversial and less likely to piss some group off.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Blanks on April 07, 2016, 05:10:41 pm
I enjoyed this first issue. Granted it's on my pull list no matter what (lol), this definatly felt like Priest part 2, reading it. Shuri's state of being is perplexing because since T'Challa used the time stone to fix things, she would have never died, her current state of being is definitely a barn burner.

The two gay characters? Well, I was like "Well, saw that coming. I mean, they aren't supposed to talk to no other man anyways right? What are they supposed to do, since T'Challa doesn't do anything with his wives in training other than honoring its traditions?"
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: bluezulu on April 08, 2016, 04:16:37 am
I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: bluezulu on April 08, 2016, 04:28:51 am
I enjoyed this first issue. Granted it's on my pull list no matter what (lol), this definatly felt like Priest part 2, reading it. Shuri's state of being is perplexing because since T'Challa used the time stone to fix things, she would have never died, her current state of being is definitely a barn burner.

The two gay characters? Well, I was like "Well, saw that coming. I mean, they aren't supposed to talk to no other man anyways right? What are they supposed to do, since T'Challa doesn't do anything with his wives in training other than honoring its traditions?"

_______________________

Great point blanks. I have to agree. My only problem is that in a issue no.1 The lead character should get more of the panel time. Coates Black Panther appears to be a book about Wakanda. That is not necessarily a good or bad thing. I would love to have the stories of the mystical Wakanda told more.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 08, 2016, 05:35:46 am
I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.

I have to agree with this...it's particularly disturbing to read comments by two of the posters on here regarding approaching feminist, sexist, and homosexual issues in this comic.  Your comments largely underscores WHY Coates probably feels the need to address this as it also underscores the particular sexism and attitudes towards black people who are homosexual.  And why many black women in academia and the arts in particular are largely disappointed with black men due to black on black misogyny. 

It's LARGELY disturbing to see one poster "hope" that the two lesbian Dora Milaje are killed off early...simply because of the "ish" of them being gay.  Imagine how a lesbian comics fan might feel reading that.  You're pretty much telling her she shouldn't exist or belong in African fantasy or sci-if and at worst, she should die.  Hopefully your daughter won't turn out to be gay with such an attitude.

Coates while being fully outspoken on black issues has always been a liberally minded academic who is quite sensitive to other issues regarding other people as well and like it or not, there will probably be many black women comic fans straight and gay who will appreciate his efforts.  And I seriously doubt he'd kill them off because of that.

Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 08, 2016, 06:06:14 am
And this is why one reason I said it is hard to write socially conscious stories which (I forgot to say last time) sell well.  No community is monolithic in their views and there will always be disagreement about what is the proper portrayal of any issue.  (I wouldn't be surprised to find numbers of the LGBT community who find these characters offensive.)
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 08, 2016, 02:09:38 pm
And this is why one reason I said it is hard to write socially conscious stories which (I forgot to say last time) sell well.  No community is monolithic in their views and there will always be disagreement about what is the proper portrayal of any issue.  (I wouldn't be surprised to find numbers of the LGBT community who find these characters offensive.)

Im sure there will but they will probably be a small amount as i really feel Coates portrayed them in a respected manner and stelfreeze's art will showed the emotional connection, it was done in a way to to show the realization of their predicament. I thought it was a great scene, it wasn't sexual which is good. and it was basically two people in love knowing death awaits them and telling it to do its worst because they are already dead
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 08, 2016, 05:45:38 pm
I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.

I'm starting to think that Coates can be political or socially conscious, but not in a way that will ruffle the feathers at Marvel or with white readers.  And the idea that politics should be eschewed from a character who holds a political position I think is taking something away that makes that character and his/her world unique. Sure the political machinations should be weaved organically in a story and not always replace the action and drama, but I do think it is a part of Black Panther and should remain. As you alluded to, Coates has made his bones writing in part by writing about political issues, so especially for him not to do that I would find it odd. With Hudlin I could more easily see him not being too political during his run more so than I could for Coates.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 08, 2016, 06:08:59 pm
I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.

I have to agree with this...it's particularly disturbing to read comments by two of the posters on here regarding approaching feminist, sexist, and homosexual issues in this comic.  Your comments largely underscores WHY Coates probably feels the need to address this as it also underscores the particular sexism and attitudes towards black people who are homosexual.  And why many black women in academia and the arts in particular are largely disappointed with black men due to black on black misogyny. 

It's LARGELY disturbing to see one poster "hope" that the two lesbian Dora Milaje are killed off early...simply because of the "ish" of them being gay.  Imagine how a lesbian comics fan might feel reading that.  You're pretty much telling her she shouldn't exist or belong in African fantasy or sci-if and at worst, she should die.  Hopefully your daughter won't turn out to be gay with such an attitude.

Coates while being fully outspoken on black issues has always been a liberally minded academic who is quite sensitive to other issues regarding other people as well and like it or not, there will probably be many black women comic fans straight and gay who will appreciate his efforts.  And I seriously doubt he'd kill them off because of that.

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: CKW on April 08, 2016, 06:12:21 pm
Coates if you are reading this..tone down that voice in your head that says that this is enough. Let your imagination run wild. We have all seen and read all the sci fi advance cultures in the mainstream except for the African one. This is fresh territory and I feel like you are holding back.

Wakanda is a mysterious place and T’Challa is the Boogey Man of the Marvel Universe- villains and heroes know the price of crossing his path.

I like that Shuri is the literally the light of Wakanda, that Ramonda is both a mother and a general and the Kanye hint ‘no one man should have all that power’ but it’s not enough.

Reactionary T’Challa in Wakanda is a stretch. When the character is outside with the Ultimates I can buy him not knowing what’s happening during the course of a mission but not in his own backyard after all that has transpired.

That border country is an old foe- spies should be in its power structure so there are no surprises.

Nevertheless I wish you all the best on your stint as BP writer.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Kimoyo on April 08, 2016, 07:23:18 pm
Provocative!  Look at the discussion Coates has inspired/instigated with his very first issue!?!  Blue, it's nice to see you back in the fray!  Like you I found some of the responses on this thread disturbing.  That is not to claim any moral superiority. While not personally faced with issues of homosexuality, it is an undeniable reality and what is inconceivable to me is that it would not exist in Wakanda.  Coates, while perhaps bravely broaching the issue, cannot even claim to be the first as MacGregor's Taku was outed by the writer in the J.A. Masterworks collection for his relationship with Venomm.  This is not the ill conceived crack in Wakanda.  The greater concern to me is whether this is a sincere exposition of a truly diverse and nuanced Wakanda or a device to attract new markets?  This is only the first issue, I think we will find out?  I'm inclined to give Coates the benefit of the doubt.  I did not have problems with the dialogue.  Ramonda seemed strong and resolute, T'Challa suitably distracted.  I think this may be a tale of reclamation.  After all that has happened to Wakanda T'Challa must reclaim his country, his authority, his sister and his people, especially the Doras.  What better champion could Aneka and Ayo have right now than the King of the Dead?  They are not crack in Wakanda.  IMO, there should be a place for them in a Golden City.  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 08, 2016, 08:18:20 pm

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 08, 2016, 08:35:22 pm
Courtesy of Dboi654 over at CBR

Quote from: Dboi654;1927018
([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLACK-PANTHER-2-GREENE-CONNECTING-B-VAR-377d4.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202002-col-a7b1f.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202003-colREV-d93b1.jpg[/url])


Quote from: Dboi654;1927070
([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202004-col-e1c57.jpg[/url])


Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 08, 2016, 09:22:07 pm
Thanks for posting the panels. My concern is growing. This is just an impression, but not a final judgment since the issue hasn't come out. But what are we presented with here? T'Challa in discussion (similar to his endless bull sessions in DoomWar), and maybe about to do something, but not actually in action. However we see images of black women being roughed up by black men, until they are saved by the likely two lesbian heroes.

I'm starting to suspect that Coates's "Black Panther" series might be a Trojan Horse to really write about two black lesbian heroes. If that is the case, it will be celebrated and seen as 'bold' and 'progressive'. It will certainly make Coates even more toasted among the intelligentsia, but T'Challa will not be elevated by it. We might still be left with a series where the greatness we know that T'Challa possesses is not displayed to its fullest, if at all, so whatever success this book might achieve won't be based on fans, old and new, gaining an appreciation for Panther and his world, but perhaps more so for the two Dora Milaje lovers or whatever other vetted liberal causes that Coates will feel compelled to write about, as long as it isn't racism, colonialism, or imperialism.

As I looked at these panels, if they are preview panels, this doesn't do anything to promote T'Challa. He's talking. The Dora Milage are acting. What makes a non-Panther fan, a casual reader want to read this book? Admittedly the art remains good. 

It makes me think that perhaps there is some kind of twisted, inverted logic that happens where black characters are concerned. That all the things that are acceptable to do to them in the name of making them supposedly relevant or A-list are not done for white characters who get that push, or would not even be considered. How is making your supposedly main character a side character a good thing for that supposedly main character? This happened in DoomWar as well, and I suspect that it might be the case during Coates' run?

How is a constant state of deconstruction, with the hero losing all the time a good thing for them? I don't have a problem with characters losing sometime, but I want them to come back and be better than before. But if you're losing all the time, why would a reader want to read that? Where is the power fantasy aspect? And I think that is part of the issue too with black superheroes. It might be hard, heck, damn near impossible for white creators, white editors, etc. to imagine themselves as these characters, to empathize with them in that way, to see them as aspirational not to black people, but to them. If they were aspirational to them then maybe they would treat these characters better and let them be badasses, just like these white creators might imagine they would be or hope to be and so so with white characters. There is likely no vicarious living through black characters. Black skin and features, the black experience is too alien, too threatening. The fears of black anger, black violence, of black vengeance might be too unsettling.

So they shackle these black characters yet call it progress. Perhaps in their minds it is progress. But to me its a sign of disconnection. Where the black writers are concerned, you have those that accomodate or resist (within limits). I saw Priest as trying to accomodate but still do his own thing whereas I didn't see Hudlin accomodating (and I wonder if that was really the reason his series drew such ire). From just what little I've seen of Coates, he's right now in the accomodationist camp. That might change. The jury is still out, but right now, that's where I see him.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 08, 2016, 09:40:43 pm

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'. 
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Salustrade on April 08, 2016, 10:45:03 pm
Thanks for posting the panels. My concern is growing. This is just an impression, but not a final judgment since the issue hasn't come out. But what are we presented with here? T'Challa in discussion (similar to his endless bull sessions in DoomWar), and maybe about to do something, but not actually in action. However we see images of black women being roughed up by black men, until they are saved by the likely two lesbian heroes.

I'm starting to suspect that Coates's "Black Panther" series might be a Trojan Horse to really write about two black lesbian heroes. If that is the case, it will be celebrated and seen as 'bold' and 'progressive'. It will certainly make Coates even more toasted among the intelligentsia, but T'Challa will not be elevated by it. We might still be left with a series where the greatness we know that T'Challa possesses is not displayed to its fullest, if at all, so whatever success this book might achieve won't be based on fans, old and new, gaining an appreciation for Panther and his world, but perhaps more so for the two Dora Milaje lovers or whatever other vetted liberal causes that Coates will feel compelled to write about, as long as it isn't racism, colonialism, or imperialism.

As I looked at these panels, if they are preview panels, this doesn't do anything to promote T'Challa. He's talking. The Dora Milage are acting. What makes a non-Panther fan, a casual reader want to read this book? Admittedly the art remains good. 

It makes me think that perhaps there is some kind of twisted, inverted logic that happens where black characters are concerned. That all the things that are acceptable to do to them in the name of making them supposedly relevant or A-list are not done for white characters who get that push, or would not even be considered. How is making your supposedly main character a side character a good thing for that supposedly main character? This happened in DoomWar as well, and I suspect that it might be the case during Coates' run?

How is a constant state of deconstruction, with the hero losing all the time a good thing for them? I don't have a problem with characters losing sometime, but I want them to come back and be better than before. But if you're losing all the time, why would a reader want to read that? Where is the power fantasy aspect? And I think that is part of the issue too with black superheroes. It might be hard, heck, damn near impossible for white creators, white editors, etc. to imagine themselves as these characters, to empathize with them in that way, to see them as aspirational not to black people, but to them. If they were aspirational to them then maybe they would treat these characters better and let them be badasses, just like these white creators might imagine they would be or hope to be and so so with white characters. There is likely no vicarious living through black characters. Black skin and features, the black experience is too alien, too threatening. The fears of black anger, black violence, of black vengeance might be too unsettling.

So they shackle these black characters yet call it progress. Perhaps in their minds it is progress. But to me its a sign of disconnection. Where the black writers are concerned, you have those that accomodate or resist (within limits). I saw Priest as trying to accomodate but still do his own thing whereas I didn't see Hudlin accomodating (and I wonder if that was really the reason his series drew such ire). From just what little I've seen of Coates, he's right now in the accomodationist camp. That might change. The jury is still out, but right now, that's where I see him.

Coates is on that Trojan Horse Dick agenda.

BP mythos about to get frak'd up with no vaseline.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 08, 2016, 10:54:02 pm
I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 08, 2016, 10:55:36 pm
Some Wakandan Eye Candy

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/12961340_10153452573952344_2534556550605466560_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12967393_10153452574092344_4257212927132727195_o.jpg)

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12974399_10153452573442344_3533332927818105462_n.jpg?oh=3dd5990ab456817fc54aac972939ed35&oe=578AC4FB)
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 09, 2016, 01:20:51 am
This Better Not Be Wakanda!

(http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202003-colREV-d93b1.jpg)

Coates and/or Stelfreeze said they were going to give us a Wakanda that we would want to live in and I'll go so far as to say this kind imagery makes their comment all the more incredulous. Obvious attempt at invoking some Boko Haram ish.

(http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ta-nehisi-582x757.jpg)

Concerning the lesbian couple, Coates isn't addressing LGBT concerns, he's touting his comic book by exploiting the it victim group of the moment. McGregor paralleled this when he bought crack into Wakanda as did Gillis with the Supremacist. The LGBT community isn't the only disenfranchised group.

Far be it for one to tell a story of the Black Panther hunting and capturing the many police officers that killed innocent Afrakan youths. Why not demonstrate the superiority of a socialized medical care where all citizens receive such quality healthcare that the Wakandan life expectancy is more than double that of the world's average.

Coates could have reversed Maberry's nonsense of making the Dora Milaje into an army and have them be the two potential wives of T'Challa. After a failed marriage with an outsider the Black Panther looks inward. It is here that Coates could have explored the internal workings of polygamy and the family dynamic.

Coates could have taken on the social ills of child soldiers and highlighted that although Wakandan children are trained in the craft of war and the martial sciences they are not utilized in the same manner. He could have centered the story on two Wakandan youth trying to debrief child soldiers from a neighboring nation.

There are many social issues and their victims that can be addressed. Where are the ones that deal with the physically handicapped and mentally challenged. As it stands at the moment, Coates' Damisa-Sarki flirts with an irrelevancy that denies both T'challa and Wakanda.

Of course this is only the first issue and some previews but in the immortal words of Kieth Sweat "There's a good and a bad way to love somebody." Show the love for the Damisa-Sarki.


Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 04:58:08 am
I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.

As for Priest's take on Black Panther, I see it differently. To me Priest was attempting to appeal to white readers by using Everett K. Ross as a point of view character, an audience surrogate, a white audience surrogate. If this white character could validate Panther (with some racial humor on the side), then maybe it would make white readers see the value in the character. So as others have pointed out, Panther has a white surrogate in Ross, he has an white ex-girlfriend, he has a white brother. Now as things went on I feel that Priest flipped it on them and did put T'Challa more front and center. For the most part I had no problem with his run. I did have some issues with his writing style, especially at first. I thought it was not a good way to get new readers involved, it was too non-sequential from what I recall. Hudlin eschewed that and gave you T'Challa directly, right from jump. I don't think everything worked in Hudlin's run, but I do appreciate that he did that and that he was determined to make T'Challa be seen as respected and relevant in the Marvel universe. Not all those attempts were as smoothly inserted as they could be, but still T'Challa was a player in big events. And I liked him as a character a whole lot more than what came after him.

Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 05:09:51 am
Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Hypestyle on April 09, 2016, 07:14:32 am
I haven't read it yet.  Please tell me that crack/dope was not reintroduced to the country.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 09, 2016, 08:33:14 am
I understand the concern. But again it's only the first issue and previews, it was said on the CBR forums and I'll say it here, Coates said he didn't want to just show the light side of things. Wakanda isn't immune from human corruption, they should definitely be above it to a certain extent as they are kinda the beacon of hope for human advancement. To be honest yes j don't want this to be a promo and prop up for Ayo and Aneka, not because of their sexual orientation, but simply because this is the Black Panther mythos and they are supporting characters and as such should take the back seat to T'Challa as he is the title character.

I know why Priest did what he did as well. He was ahead if the times and had to do what he had to do to get Panther popular. Yes I had issues with his story as well as Hudlin's but both of those writers have written the best BPs to date and will always be the OGs that set the tone for how T'Challa should be and what the movie will be depicting
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Kimoyo on April 09, 2016, 09:38:26 am
I haven't read it yet.  Please tell me that crack/dope was not reintroduced to the country.

No, however I suspect Wakanda is under the influence of an adversary with Shadow King-esque power.  If so, an unsavory, uncharacteristic, even distasteful view of Wakandans is to be expected.  Shadow King stories have been some of the most uncomfortable I've ever read.  Yet, we BP fans have been so mistreated and taken for granted for such a long time, my hope is that Coates and Marvel would spare us any overly drawn out plot development and allow Wakanda its overdue, deserved measure of recovery, hopefully with T'Challa affecting Wakanda's and his own personal restoration.  References to Wakanda as a shining beacon for humanity, Coates stated desire for his work to be regarded as the best, the obvious amount of research done and several other factors give me hope that he has an end game in mind that will resonate favorably with us.  Most of us...no one before Coates, not Priest, not Hudlin, certainly not Hickman (gave him about 8 issues) got T'Challa/Wakanda perfect.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ezyo on April 09, 2016, 09:43:58 am
I haven't read it yet.  Please tell me that crack/dope was not reintroduced to the country.

No, however I suspect Wakanda is under the influence of an adversary with Shadow King-esque power.  If so, an unsavory, uncharacteristic, even distasteful view of Wakandans is to be expected.  Shadow King stories have been some of the most uncomfortable I've ever read.  Yet, we BP fans have been so mistreated and taken for granted for such a long time, my hope is that Coates and Marvel would spare us any overly drawn out plot development and allow Wakanda its overdue, deserved measure of recovery, hopefully with T'Challa affecting Wakanda's and his own personal restoration.  References to Wakanda as a shining beacon for humanity, Coates stated desire for his work to be regarded as the best, the obvious amount of research done and several other factors give me hope that he has an end game in mind that will resonate favorably with us.  Most of us...no one before Coates, not Priest, not Hudlin, certainly not Hickman (gave him about 8 issues) got T'Challa/Wakanda perfect.

Peace,

Mont

Priest and Hudlin have gotten the closest though 8)
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Kimoyo on April 09, 2016, 09:50:08 am
Agreed Brother Ezyo!

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 09, 2016, 10:07:04 am
An Entertainment Weekly review.  I can't remember when EW reviewed another comic.  (They may have, I just never seen one show up in my FB feed before.)

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/08/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panter-1-recap (http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/08/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panter-1-recap)
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Ture on April 09, 2016, 10:33:54 am
Emperorjones stay knocking it out the box. Another two superb write ups. No worries Hypestyle, they have not reintroduced crack in the pages of BP.

I understand the concern. But again it's only the first issue and previews, it was said on the CBR forums and I'll say it here, Coates said he didn't want to just show the light side of things. Wakanda isn't immune from human corruption, they should definitely be above it to a certain extent as they are kinda the beacon of hope for human advancement. To be honest yes j don't want this to be a promo and prop up for Ayo and Aneka, not because of their sexual orientation, but simply because this is the Black Panther mythos and they are supporting characters and as such should take the back seat to T'Challa as he is the title character.

I know why Priest did what he did as well. He was ahead if the times and had to do what he had to do to get Panther popular. Yes I had issues with his story as well as Hudlin's but both of those writers have written the best BPs to date and will always be the OGs that set the tone for how T'Challa should be and what the movie will be depicting



Why not just show the light side of Wakanda. How else would you demonstrate them being the most advance nation on the globe. Oh I get it they are the most technologically advanced but socially, politically and culturally they are backwardly primitive. We need to see this why?

Wakanda should most certainly be immune to the more base human corruptibles. No hunger, no unemployment, no police brutality, no poverty, no cost housing, no utilities payments, no pollution just to name a few. Wakanda should illuminate the world or at least Afraka with its free education through post doctorate and beyond, , free medical for all for life, environmentally conscious technologies, gender equality and ethnic unicity.

A creative writer would find new challenges for the Black Panther and Wakanda to face instead of reiterating the same old stereotypical societal ills. There is a lot  of positive and productive things going on in the lives of continental and diasporac Afrakans. I dare say there is much positive than negative.


"One in six black men had been incarcerated as of 2001." so why not focus on the five that have not been incarcerated. In addition, the black-female-to-black-male ratios at HBCUs are 1.75-to-1. Coppin State University is the only HBCU that has a ratio that exceeds 3-to-1 (it is 3.3-to-1, to be exact).


Not to mention...

(http://blackdemographics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2014-Marriage-Chart.jpg)


Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?


Excellent observation. The proper promotion and marketing of Shuri (especially if Lupita Nyong'o is cast for the film) would draw in female readers, Afrakan female readers, more male readers and more Afrakan male readers. Keep her beautiful aesthetic, show off her fashion and style, keep her heterosexual and involved with a Wakandan male in a romantic, sexual, loving relationship. T'Challa too needs a romantic, sexual, loving relationship with Wakandan woman... or two. Reinvest in the true purpose of the Dora Milaje, queens of the realm and mothers of the nation.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 12:13:00 pm
I understand the concern. But again it's only the first issue and previews, it was said on the CBR forums and I'll say it here, Coates said he didn't want to just show the light side of things. Wakanda isn't immune from human corruption, they should definitely be above it to a certain extent as they are kinda the beacon of hope for human advancement. To be honest yes j don't want this to be a promo and prop up for Ayo and Aneka, not because of their sexual orientation, but simply because this is the Black Panther mythos and they are supporting characters and as such should take the back seat to T'Challa as he is the title character.

I know why Priest did what he did as well. He was ahead if the times and had to do what he had to do to get Panther popular. Yes I had issues with his story as well as Hudlin's but both of those writers have written the best BPs to date and will always be the OGs that set the tone for how T'Challa should be and what the movie will be depicting


Ezyo,

You are right that we've only had the first issue and this is just a promo. So I have no clue as to what the second issue will be like, or how the series will ultimately go. I've said before that the jury is out to me.

Before Ture laid out several things that could create drama and conflict. I think we need balance. There is nothing wrong with conflict. I want that, I want challenges, but I also want my hero to be able to figure out those challenges and win well enough if not always decisively. If he/she is knocked down, I want them to get back up. I don't see this kind of hand wringing when it comes to white male characters over how 'perfect' they are. Though to Coates's credit he did mention how he didn't like how perfect he saw Wolverine as being. Though I will say this, I would be more okay with deconstructing if Black Panther had the publishing history, the media presence of a Wolverine. I know he would weather that storm and keep it coming. His legacy would be more secure. But for a black character to be deconstructed all the time while he's struggling to get on, it might make him look weak and unattractive to new readers and gets tired for old readers, the diehards. Also I think the wounds are longer lasting with black characters because after the deconstruction or humiliation who knows when they will be back again.

But what I think we've got so far is some standard stuff about black men as misogynists and from the promo likely sexually deviant beasts. We've also gotten a dithering T'Challa, and this to me is in line with how black male heterosexual characters are depicted in today's media. They are eunuchs, unless married to non-black women and even then we might not see much sex, they are supporting characters (male 'black best friends'), they rarely are decisive, and if they kick ass, they do so in service to or in league with white people. They aren't defending themselves. Just recently on Arrow, they had Diggle imprison and torture his brother for Green Arrow,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
and to show how right that decision turned out to be, when Diggle comes to the brother's defense later, the brother turns out to be a traitor.
. And of course black men are still often depicted as clowns and buffoons.

You say that the sexual orientation of Ayo and Aneka plays no role in them getting a starring spot in the promo? Can you name me any other Black Panther supporting player that has gotten a similar spot light? S'Yan? Ramonda? W'Kabi? Flea? Hunter? Their sexual orientation is likely the reason they are getting this spot light. They are important characters in this run, and quite possibly the real main characters. And they might be gateway characters to attract new readers and positive media attention to Panther. But once again, if that becomes the reason what incentive will there be to actually build up the Panther? Then the series becomes about Ayo and Aneka, sort of like how I feel Arrow has become about Felicity or Olicity. Now of course things can change, but if the project is to be about pumping up Panther and helping introduce him ahead of Civil War and his own film, the first issue has stumbled out the gate.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 12:22:59 pm
Ture,

Great charts. I'm so glad you posted it. You hear in the media about the rise in interracial marriages, but you never get the real picture. To me they drop that grenade and then blacks go at each other, when the reality is the majority of blacks are marrying other blacks. In the media though its almost a completely different picture.

I do disagree with you though about Wakanda being pictured as light. Certainly advanced, but at the same time I think its hard to get through all the miseducation for writers and creators to see a black society or country on that level and how to depict it. And that is even if they are well educated and sensitive to the plight of blacks and understand the damages of stereotyping, like I think Coates is.

That being said, I don't mind some political strife or introduction of real world issues. I don't want them to be stereotypical though. A recent promo I read for the latest Green Arrow comic has Green Arrow in 'war torn' Africa. It's amazing how often that phrase is attached to Africa. It's like the idea is already there before people even write the story. So their perceptions are already shaped going into it.

I don't disagree that a creative writer could find new challenges. I mean the internal strife thing has been done quite a bit with Panther. How about showing him rally the nation together to defeat threats or him reaching out to the rest of the continent and encountering problems there, if not in Wakanda? Like how Star Trek often depicts the Federation as damn near perfect, but there is always conflict and strife outside the Federation.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 01:10:06 pm
I picked up issue 1. My first BP related comic in a few years. I had to stop after Marvel decided to "roll back" some of the gains to the character's place in the Marvel U that Reggie established in his series. First the art in this issue was amazing. I think the new design of Wakanda and the new Tech is amazing. Black Panther used to have one of the most simple but bad ass costumes in comics. I think it would be great to go back to something like that. Coates vision for the Black Panther I am ok with overall. There were however some issues with the writing. The dialog between characters often felt disjointed except for the communication between the Lesbian Dora Milaj. On the politics of the issue. Um guys reading some of your comments it is almost like a catch 22 where some of your criticisms uphold some of the points made about sexism and the black man. Reggie was pretty political in his run. I don't think doing that again will work for Coates. That kind of is what is expected with his reparations article. I will make a subscription to the series to how it plays out.

I have to agree with this...it's particularly disturbing to read comments by two of the posters on here regarding approaching feminist, sexist, and homosexual issues in this comic.  Your comments largely underscores WHY Coates probably feels the need to address this as it also underscores the particular sexism and attitudes towards black people who are homosexual.  And why many black women in academia and the arts in particular are largely disappointed with black men due to black on black misogyny. 

It's LARGELY disturbing to see one poster "hope" that the two lesbian Dora Milaje are killed off early...simply because of the "ish" of them being gay.  Imagine how a lesbian comics fan might feel reading that.  You're pretty much telling her she shouldn't exist or belong in African fantasy or sci-if and at worst, she should die.  Hopefully your daughter won't turn out to be gay with such an attitude.

Coates while being fully outspoken on black issues has always been a liberally minded academic who is quite sensitive to other issues regarding other people as well and like it or not, there will probably be many black women comic fans straight and gay who will appreciate his efforts.  And I seriously doubt he'd kill them off because of that.

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Everything you just said in this post even further promotes the very issues I stated before along with bluezulu's and actually is even further disturbing...not to mention it also underscores even further the very problems some see as some black men only caring about their own particular issues and not the issues outside of just racism that effects their very own brothers and sisters...even WITHIN thier own black communities.

it also may show you have a very limited understanding of cross sectional issues that effect different black people.

1. the fact that you take this "black people has to be for everyone else far too much" as a concern and that you feel that "black people have to put their concerns on the back-burner to mollify our allies" is showing that black people WHO ARE LGBT (they do exist in large numbers whther you like it or not) and black feminist or womanist issues are largely invisible to you and you see these concerns as a "white" thing.  This is an issue black people within the LGBT community AND many black women feel and discuss all the time and everything in your post supports it.

Homosexual and gender issues ARE a black issue because there ARE black LGBT people existing who feel excluded and not accepted and often ESPECIALLY within their own black communities.  Funny thing is THEY feel the same way you do...that their particular issues are put on the back burner in lieu of the greater "race" struggle or even seen as "not a black thing" or a "unnatural thing they picked up from white people"  and thus should not only be ignored but condemned.  And again everything in your post proves that.

For instance:  Coates has made his bones and spent most of his career talking about race issues and racism...Reggie Hudlin and Priest before him in his own way did the same with their runs...but Coates, after only 1 issue, focuses on a lesbian couple and gender issues and suddenly there is a "concern"...never mind that those issues affects a segment of black people as well that are often ignored or "put on the back burner" themselves...by their own people.

But of course you "have an issue with the "promotion" of homosexuality (because of course LGBT people seeing themselves in a black comic can only be "promotion" and not "inclusion") ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic.  WHY? Could it be that you only care about your own concerns and fantasies and inclusion in the world?  That as a straight black man you want to see upfront and foremost in a comic about a black afrofuturistic country only those things that affect YOU and not concerns that affect black people that are not black straight men for ONCE in this comic being in the forefront? Because its giving support to something other than some dudes fragile black male ego?

This is the very issues many black women and LGBT people have discussed...that the struggle always and mainly focuses on straight black men while women and especially black people who are LGBT should just be quiet, not be represented in any meaningful way, or always be secondary.

Thankfully Coates disagrees with you and has a wider view and sensitivity to issues that affects black people other than straight black males.

2. The fact you think Coates is writing this because "homosexuality is more acceptable and it endears him to more liberals" is laughable and sad at the same time.  Dude has spent his career writing about controversial race isssues and even made a case for reparations...which even some liberal white people dont agree with.  So now all of a sudden he's writing to appease liberals?  lol...  Thats whats laughable.  What's sad is that you actually NEED to believe this because you cant accept that a straight, married black man actually is writing this because he cares about and sees this as an issue that should be addressed.  And it IS an issue within the black community as well as outside of it.  Financially yes, its possible more LGBT people and even women might pick it up ecause they see themselves included in it in a intelligent and meaningful way.  Hopefully straight black dudes wont be scared off from it because of this.

Plus, its only the first issue.  We dont know yet if "racism and colonialism" wont be touched upon too along with the issues he's already presented.  but his first run was already touted to be involving an internal Wakandan prolem.

3. Your rant about black misogyny and actually bringing up misandry, which in many ways is a much smaller to nonexistent issue in a patriarchal world and in comics, where male characters far outweigh female ones and black male characters are far greater than the almost non-existent black female ones, smacks of a disingenous defensive argument.  its like white people bringing up their own oppression whenever someone talks about white supremacy.  Its pretty much a non-argument when looking at the facts of the world.

And why is it whenever negativity within the black community and the ills SOME black men do is discussed its an overall "attack on the black man?"  What are some of us being so fragile about that we shouldnt accept some judgement, especially from our own, about ourselves? Ive been a black man probably longer than you, and whenever these things are bought up, I dont feel its an overall attack on black men and definitely dont feel we are all "lazy and shiftless" and whatever else you said.  But yes, some black men are sexist and misogynistic and in more subtle ways they arent even aware of, totally dismissive and blind to issues outside of what affects them personally.  the fact that this is sometimes ought up and discussed, especially by other black people, isnt a "broad brush" over all black men.  Again, your post underscores this.  There are many examples of black men being loving and not lazy in the world and in media.  The current president and his wife is one of the best examples of a black man and a black love around...why do I see these examples and you dont?

Now, how many positive or intriguing examples do you see of black LGBT people?

I feel you on T'Challa so far not being the front and center character of this story, but that doesnt mean its not a good story nor one that will elevate the character...and the best stories dont always involve the central character "kicking ass" to satisfy our male egos.  He's attempting to, for better or worse, deal with redefining the world around the central character. Coates already said this story would focus on the politics and standing of Wakanda as a whole and T'challa as a monarch.  its only the 1st issue.




Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 01:33:48 pm
Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 01:57:22 pm
This Better Not Be Wakanda!

([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202003-colREV-d93b1.jpg[/url])

Coates and/or Stelfreeze said they were going to give us a Wakanda that we would want to live in and I'll go so far as to say this kind imagery makes their comment all the more incredulous. Obvious attempt at invoking some Boko Haram ish.

([url]http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ta-nehisi-582x757.jpg[/url])

Concerning the lesbian couple, Coates isn't addressing LGBT concerns, he's touting his comic book by exploiting the it victim group of the moment. McGregor paralleled this when he bought crack into Wakanda as did Gillis with the Supremacist. The LGBT community isn't the only disenfranchised group.

Far be it for one to tell a story of the Black Panther hunting and capturing the many police officers that killed innocent Afrakan youths. Why not demonstrate the superiority of a socialized medical care where all citizens receive such quality healthcare that the Wakandan life expectancy is more than double that of the world's average.

Coates could have reversed Maberry's nonsense of making the Dora Milaje into an army and have them be the two potential wives of T'Challa. After a failed marriage with an outsider the Black Panther looks inward. It is here that Coates could have explored the internal workings of polygamy and the family dynamic.

Coates could have taken on the social ills of child soldiers and highlighted that although Wakandan children are trained in the craft of war and the martial sciences they are not utilized in the same manner. He could have centered the story on two Wakandan youth trying to debrief child soldiers from a neighboring nation.

There are many social issues and their victims that can be addressed. Where are the ones that deal with the physically handicapped and mentally challenged. As it stands at the moment, Coates' Damisa-Sarki flirts with an irrelevancy that denies both T'challa and Wakanda.

Of course this is only the first issue and some previews but in the immortal words of Kieth Sweat "There's a good and a bad way to love somebody." Show the love for the Damisa-Sarki.





Though I agree with some of your post, you have no idea what Coates is doing or why he is doing it.  The idea that he's just "touting the victim group of the moment" not only is a cynical insult to the trials and struggles of LGBT people, black, white, and other, themselves as basically implying their movement is "trendy", but its an insult to the writer himself as it implies he's only doing this to be trendy himself and not because its an issue he actually could care about.

And for black people or the black community, the LGBT group may not be the only disenfranchised group, but it is one that in many cases goes largely ignored or are condemned.

Police Officers killing African youths?  HUGE topic supported by most black people and many liberal whites...the "black lives matter" movement was started actually by two LGBT women.  Who made secondary their own issues as gay black women to help ring attention to the overall cause of police brutality against black people.

Yet they cant see themselves depicted in a Black Panther comic?

And stories dealing with the physically handicapped and mentally challenged would be a great thing to see, but lets not pretend thats a controversial topic or one that needs to be shown to gain acceptance by others...no one or hardly anybody has any negative or hateful feeling s towards the physically or mentally challenged and they may be ignored due to convenience which is not a good thing, but are not condemned or attacked for who they are in the larger way LGBT are.

The child soldiers thing would be excellent to see.  But again, why not tout for this being seen while NOT condemning whats being shown now?  Is it because the LGBT thing is a far more uncomfortable thing to see in a "black" comic than dealing with child soldiers?  Because both exist and both are issues with black people.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 02:11:08 pm

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 02:16:46 pm
Everything you just said in this post even further promotes the very issues I stated before along with bluezulu's and actually is even further disturbing...not to mention it also underscores even further the very problems some see as some black men only caring about their own particular issues and not the issues outside of just racism that effects their very own brothers and sisters...even WITHIN thier own black communities.

it also may show you have a very limited understanding of cross sectional issues that effect different black people.

1. the fact that you take this "black people has to be for everyone else far too much" as a concern and that you feel that "black people have to put their concerns on the back-burner to mollify our allies" is showing that black people WHO ARE LGBT (they do exist in large numbers whther you like it or not) and black feminist or womanist issues are largely invisible to you and you see these concerns as a "white" thing.  This is an issue black people within the LGBT community AND many black women feel and discuss all the time and everything in your post supports it.

First of all I never said my concern about black people being for everyone else was LGBT specific. This happens in a variety of ways, with black people taking up causes and not getting reciprocal support. What I do feel throughout this post that you are making assumptions about me and putting words in my mouth even though I have clearly tried to write out my thoughts, but that's your right to do so.

Homosexual and gender issues ARE a black issue because there ARE black LGBT people existing who feel excluded and not accepted and often ESPECIALLY within their own black communities.  Funny thing is THEY feel the same way you do...that their particular issues are put on the back burner in lieu of the greater "race" struggle or even seen as "not a black thing" or a "unnatural thing they picked up from white people"  and thus should not only be ignored but condemned.  And again everything in your post proves that.

You keep linking LGBT and gender issues like they are one and the same and they are not, or not always. Fair enough that homosexual and gender issues are black issues, but at the same time is a cop stopping and frisking you because you are gay or because you are black?

For instance:  Coates has made his bones and spent most of his career talking about race issues and racism...Reggie Hudlin and Priest before him in his own way did the same with their runs...but Coates, after only 1 issue, focuses on a lesbian couple and gender issues and suddenly there is a "concern"...never mind that those issues affects a segment of black people as well that are often ignored or "put on the back burner" themselves...by their own people.

Are LGBT issues really being put on the back burner by blacks? The most important social movement for black folks in decades is very supportive of LGBT issues, and there are countless black thought pieces in support of LGBT rights, President Obama is a supporter of LGBT issues and has been more vocal about them than he has regarding issues that affect blacks (straight or gay). Even Farrakhan defended the LGBT community at the latest Million Man March. Though for some of this mainstream support, there is a racial component here where the face of LGBT is often white so it is more acceptable to support their cause in the mainstream. I've already laid out why I am concerned about Ayo and Aneka and what it might portend going forward so I'm not going to repeat it.

But of course you "have an issue with the "promotion" of homosexuality (because of course LGBT people seeing themselves in a black comic can only be "promotion" and not "inclusion") ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic.  WHY? Could it be that you only care about your own concerns and fantasies and inclusion in the world?  That as a straight black man you want to see upfront and foremost in a comic about a black afrofuturistic country only those things that affect YOU and not concerns that affect black people that are not black straight men for ONCE in this comic being in the forefront? Because its giving support to something other than some dudes fragile black male ego?

Of course I care about my own inclusion and 'fantasies', likewise you do too, or you wouldn't be so huffy about my comments. Why wouldn't a comic book about a African kingdom, one of the few unconquered by colonialism, not talk about issues affecting or afflicting the continent? Why would they talk about homosexuality, which is a very hot topic right now, instead of long running problems, historical problems, that have often gotten short shrift in the media? I once read that Black Panther/T'Challa was inspired by the new wave of African freedom fighters and movements of the 50s and 60s, but you think that history and the continuing issues that are part of that history should be ignored or take a backseat to see a same sex couple? I very much do see promotion of homosexuality because the media is talking about it, displaying, celebrating it, and now it is a situation where it must be embraced, must be celebrated, or you are a homophobe or transphobic. I just saw that the American Idol runner up is taking hit for saying she doesn't agree with that lifestyle. Now she also said she has gay friends and is tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle, but tolerance is no longer enough.

All that being,  I'm not saying that any issues should be excluded from this Panther run or in other media, though I am concerned about what gets priority, and why. I think homosexuality is more acceptable so its getting the priority in this Panther run, so far.

I've seen the attack on the 'fragile' straight male ego before. But is there such a thing as a fragile female or rather feminist ego or homosexual male/female ego? Are the concerns of homosexuals more legitimate than straight people? Are homosexuals only allowed to express displeasure? And it not be seen as an issue of fragility?

The idea that you think that the issues of straight black men are at the forefront is troubling. There have been long fights about the lack of representation, of diversity in front of and behind the cameras in Hollywood. Where is this great representation for straight black males?Where are there voices being heard so clearly? There is an issue of representation where black voices are concerned period. This belief that straight black males have it so good while everyone else suffers is erroneous. Fair enough you might see more straight black males in media, but also you see more straight black males demonized in media.


This is the very issues many black women and LGBT people have discussed...that the struggle always and mainly focuses on straight black men while women and especially black people who are LGBT should just be quiet, not be represented in any meaningful way, or always be secondary.

I've never once said anyone should be quiet. I think there is a hostility towards straight black males from feminists that want to make all black men out to be Mister from The Color Purple. I have no problem at all with black women or LGBT people having a voice, and they do have voices. The struggle doesn't focus solely on black men, but black men do take a lot of punishment and they do need help. The idea that you should be condemning that help instead of acknowledging the problems is cause for concern. It doesn't have to be either/or, zero sum game. But I do feel that's how some feminists play it.

Thankfully Coates disagrees with you and has a wider view and sensitivity to issues that affects black people other than straight black males.

I'm just one dude, with my opinion. Don't generalize all black males because of me. And Coates is entitled to his view, I'm still supporting his work...for now, but in the future that remains to be seen.

2. The fact you think Coates is writing this because "homosexuality is more acceptable and it endears him to more liberals" is laughable and sad at the same time.  Dude has spent his career writing about controversial race isssues and even made a case for reparations...which even some liberal white people dont agree with.  So now all of a sudden he's writing to appease liberals?  lol...  Thats whats laughable.  What's sad is that you actually NEED to believe this because you cant accept that a straight, married black man actually is writing this because he cares about and sees this as an issue that should be addressed.  And it IS an issue within the black community as well as outside of it.  Financially yes, its possible more LGBT people and even women might pick it up ecause they see themselves included in it in a intelligent and meaningful way.  Hopefully straight black dudes wont be scared off from it because of this.

Coates is also writing at The Atlantic. He's a pet black intellectual. That doesn't mean I don't agree with many of his articles. I have liked his writing and that made me interested when I heard he got this gig. But I also understand that he is working for a white magazine and promotion of homosexuality won't piss them off. It will endear him to them. Are there some white liberals who disagree with him? Sure, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean there aren't others who agree with him, or agree with him enough, to continue paying him to write. And his arguments for reparations don't prevent him from supporting Senator Sanders after chastising him for not supporting them. Coates can express some displeasure but still be counted on to fold right back into a progressive tent. He's an eloquent writer, an insightful person, but one that isn't going to turn over any tables. Which I get that, The Atlantic or Marvel wouldn't hire him if he was a barn burner, but I'm not going to pretend he's this bold, radical thinker either. He's a racial interpreter for white people.

Plus, its only the first issue.  We dont know yet if "racism and colonialism" wont be touched upon too along with the issues he's already presented.  but his first run was already touted to be involving an internal Wakandan prolem.

You are right on that it is the first issue. And I've said that, more than once, that Coates said he was delaying discussing those topics. Which I do find odd since so many issues connected to Africa revolve around them. Now I am skeptical that he will actually get to them or if he does he will address them in a surface, non-controversial way like many others have also done when depicting Africa.

3. Your rant about black misogyny and actually bringing up misandry, which in many ways is a much smaller to nonexistent issue in a patriarchal world and in comics, where male characters far outweigh female ones and black male characters are far greater than the almost non-existent black female ones, smacks of a disingenous defensive argument.  its like white people bringing up their own oppression whenever someone talks about white supremacy.  Its pretty much a non-argument when looking at the facts of the world.

Rant? Was I writing in ALL CAPS? No, I saying something you dislike so you want to delegitimize it by making it seem like I'm frothing at the mouth. When I think about misandry, yes, I agree to some extent what you are saying here, regarding how powerful misandry might be in comparison to misogyny in the overall country.  Though I do think we need to decouple the white experience from the black experience. While there are more black male characters in mainstream comics, or at least prominent black male characters, it's not like its black men who are generally writing these characters. They are not true representations of black people, male or female. They are often white peoples ideas of what black people are. That being said, the most well known black character in comics for a long time was Storm. She was so well known that some fans hated that she married Panther. I read that even John Byrne felt that Storm was too good for Panther. Now in other black popular media, there is misandry. The black man ain't sh*t basically has been touted in movies for a long time now and to some extent in music.

The general power differences between white males and white females, I don't know if that is exactly replicated in the black community. And if it has been, I don't know if that is no longer the case with black women getting more degrees and having relatively better employment. So the power differentials might be different.


And why is it whenever negativity within the black community and the ills SOME black men do is discussed its an overall "attack on the black man?"  What are some of us being so fragile about that we shouldnt accept some judgement, especially from our own, about ourselves? Ive been a black man probably longer than you, and whenever these things are bought up, I dont feel its an overall attack on black men and definitely dont feel we are all "lazy and shiftless" and whatever else you said.  But yes, some black men are sexist and misogynistic and in more subtle ways they arent even aware of, totally dismissive and blind to issues outside of what affects them personally.  the fact that this is sometimes ought up and discussed, especially by other black people, isnt a "broad brush" over all black men.  Again, your post underscores this.  There are many examples of black men being loving and not lazy in the world and in media.  The current president and his wife is one of the best examples of a black man and a black love around...why do I see these examples and you dont?

Look at some of your statements in regards to me. It went away from just going after me, Emperorjones, to swiping at all black men, or rather straight black men. So I think its very easy to generalize. So is all the negativity in the black community solely coming from straight black males? Its not an issue of 'accepting' judgment, its who the judgment is coming from and for what purpose. And also the people who are judging how would they feel if the mirror is turned back on them? It seems to me you are going into this assuming that straight black men are a problem, perhaps the problem, so we need that tough love, we need the finger wagging, and so on and so on. And black men get that, from all corners, including from President Obama. I think some feminists and perhaps some others have allowed the our so-called allies, the media, and academia to poison us against each other, and that its okay to bash straight black men. For example I saw an Ebony article going after Michael B. Jordan for referring to black women as 'females'. Are you kidding me? That doesn't mean that black women aren't getting bashed or black LGBT people aren't getting bashed either, but why is it an outrage when its females and gay folks but not when its straight black males?

One of the few nice things I do have to say about President Obama is that his marriage is a great optic to counter some of the negativity regarding heterosexual intraracial relationships, but they are still too far and in between.

Now, how many positive or intriguing examples do you see of black LGBT people?

Off the top of my head, the lead character (Jamal?) on Empire. Curtis Holt on Arrow. Morris Chestnut's sister on Rosewood. Lafayette and Tara on True Blood. I don't watch much a wide variety of shows these days, but I can assume there are more or soon will be.

I feel you on T'Challa so far not being the front and center character of this story, but that doesnt mean its not a good story nor one that will elevate the character...and the best stories dont always involve the central character "kicking ass" to satisfy our male egos.  He's attempting to, for better or worse, deal with redefining the world around the central character. Coates already said this story would focus on the politics and standing of Wakanda as a whole and T'challa as a monarch.  its only the 1st issue.
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I don't know if it will be a good story. I know Coates is a good writer. I'm really feeling the art. I don't think kicking ass is purely a male thing. Look at how feminists celebrated Rey in The Force Awakens. Was her kicking ass purely a male thing. And we've seen a rise of (white) female action stars over the years in Resident Evil, Underworld, and The Hunger Games. Now we have The Force Awakens and soon to have Rogue One. I think many groups want to see someone like them kick ass, irrespective of gender.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 02:22:24 pm
Speak on it Ture,

Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.

I don't buy that the black community is so doctrinaire homophobic. Even Michael Sam has recently said that he experienced more racism in the white gay community than hostility in the black community. I think the rampant black homophobia thing is overblown. What major black thought leader today is anti-gay? Even Charles Barkley, who threw shade on Mike Brown, has come out to speak against the LGBT legislation in North Carolina.

You say Empire is getting backlash and it is, but I bet you that the rock solid support that show is getting is from black people and it is praised and celebrated throughout black media, in addition to white media as well. So if blacks were so homophobic why are they supporting the hell out of Empire?

Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 02:26:13 pm

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 02:28:00 pm
I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.



Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

well...

I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 02:32:05 pm

I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

Post of the week!!!
Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

Thanks Brother Ture,

I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.

You missed the part where I said black men being called "thugs and playas" and even "niggas" are embraced as positive things in hip hop and even largely in black american culture.  THEY called themselves this.  Its seen as something cool and embraced by rappers who are seen as heroes like Tupac, who popularized "Thug Life" and called himself a thug.  Black men call THEMSELVES "nigga" all the time.

so no, "bitches and hoes" is not the same thing.
Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 02:36:06 pm
    I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

    I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

    This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

    But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

    I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.



    Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

    well...

    I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

    I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

    Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

    Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

    Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

    Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

    A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?
    Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
    Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 02:38:40 pm

    I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

    Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

    I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

    I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

    And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

    Post of the week!!!
    Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.

    Thanks Brother Ture,

    I've just started to think more about black misandry recently. I mean black misogyny is brought up quite a bit especially when it comes to hip hop, and with mainstream gangsta rap I don't disagree that it is misogynist. But it is also misandrist. It dehumanizes both males and females, but the misandry is not as noticeable because I don't think the concept is one that a lot of people know about or perhaps even believe, and it's not something that is really talked about. Plus its male rappers primarily who are the ones who are spouting misogynist and misandrist lyrics and promoting those negative images. I also believe that mainstream rap is anti-black as well. But once again the color of a majority of rappers obfuscates seeing how anti-black mainstream rap, like the gender of many rappers hides the misandry.

    We have come to accept as truisms some very negative things about black men. We nod our heads and laugh at them when we hear the litanies. But there are some black men who speak up or encourage and chastise black men to do better in terms of their treatment of women, but there aren't really any prominent black females or black males for that matter who speak out about misandry. Now I don't necessarily blame black women for misandry, they are the front line soldiers, like many men are for misogyny. I think we've both drunk from a poisoned chalice and are taking out our pain on each other. And that pain is deep, its immediate, and its stoked by external forces as well, so its hard to look beyond the pain and see the bigger picture, to understand context. Its far easier to lash out at the people closest to you or to react to them, rejecting them because either one of them did it or looks like the people who did hurt you.

    And while hip hop and other media have created a sexist portrait of black women, they have also created a misandrist one for black men. As I alluded to before, the idea of black men being worthless is accepted, its a joke we all laugh at now because we know it's 'true'.

    Hip Hop has largely objectified women and made popular the terms "bitches" and "hoes"...we just recently celebrated a biopic about a rap group who not only largely objectified women and who were misogynistic, but the leader (Dr. Dre) is a known woman abuser who beat several women severely and beat down and ruined the the career and future prospects of another woman simply because she wrote a piece that he found less than flattering.

    The genre shows most of the black men in it as heroes who are "thugs" and "playas", an image many of us not only accepted is seen as cool.  Where is the "misandry"?

    Is there a male equivalent for "bitch" and "Hoe"?  No "dog" doesnt count and has nowhere near the same power.

    This point of view is a popular tactic called re-focusing...and its one people use when they are uncomfortable dealing with judgmental points against their own group.

    like when white people re focus discussions about racism on reverse racism.

    You are right that hip hop has objectified women. But you have also pointed out that whereas women are called bitches and hoes, men are called thugs and niggas. Men are shown to be subhuman, perhaps in a different way than women but still dehumanized. The idea that you can see one and not see the other, I cram to understand.

    I think it gets confusing because men are the main rappers, they seem powerful in these videos or songs, but all they are doing is confirming coon and brute stereotypes, its just wrapped in bling.

    You missed the part where I said black men being called "thugs and playas" and even "niggas" are embraced as positive things in hip hop and even largely in black american culture.  THEY called themselves this.  Its seen as something cool and embraced by rappers who are seen as heroes like Tupac, who popularized "Thug Life" and called himself a thug.  Black men call THEMSELVES "nigga" all the time.

    so no, "bitches and hoes" is not the same thing.

    I didn't miss your point. I referred to what you said. So some women don't call themselves bitches or hoes? They do. Some black female rappers even call themselves playas or an equivalent like Foxy Brown, Lil'Kim, Trina, and perhaps today Nicki Minaj.

    It's not the same I will admit that, but at the same time I see it as an issue of black men embracing the idea of their own dehumanization and that has been helped mightily through rap music and other media.
    Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
    Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 02:46:51 pm
    Speak on it Ture,

    Though I do take issue. I don't see the LGBT community as a whole disenfranchised. They do have the right to vote and they are wielding political power a whole lot more effectively than black people are these days. But I agree wholeheartedly about how you say that Coates is using the It group of the moment.

    And you had some really good ideas that Coates could've taken with the series instead of this trendy, and faux controversial move. It's not controversial at all if almost every celebrity in Hollywood supports LGBT rights, the President supports LGBT rights, LGBT reality stars and characters are on television. Also more LGBT characters are in comics, with at least two heading series at DC, Batwoman and Midnighter. Also Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual. Heck, Empire, the most popular show on television, has a gay character as the main character, or at least the main hero character. So there is nothing revolutionary about having a lesbian couple in a comic book. And gender bending has become celebrated, such as Jaden Smith becoming the face of a women's clothing line. There were some griping about that around the margins, but nothing major. It's almost at a point where we don't wonder who is gay, but who isn't gay.

    It's not bold at all, to be honest it feels like a sucker move. He won't take on racism (at least at first, according to him), despite having a little beef just this year over Bernie Sanders's lack of support for reparations, but yet he will go with an issue that has wide support among liberals. He isn't taking a hard road, he's just going with the flow.

    again everything said here is "gay is a white problem and not a black one"

    Every character you mentioned in your post is white...the Empire guy...ooohhh you can point out one gay black character among the many on TV and in movies.  And even he's getting a lot of backlash...by other black people.  He's not even the central character on Empire and the issues he's suffering from his own father and the community he lives in in the show is pretty much an enactment of the issues the director Lee Daniels went through himself...not because he was black but because he was gay.

    Jaden Smith's gender bending was met with a HUGE amount of bile and ugly personal attacks by black people on various social sites...not only of himself but of his parents as well.

    Whats not being got is while the "LGBT agenda" is a popular movement with white liberals, what Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing by bringing it in a black hero's comic is dealing with the issues and non-inclusion of black LGBT people within the black community itself.  The very community they should feel welcome in and included but often are either ignored or condemned.

    Again, the fact your opinion is that they should have a secondary or non-existent focus in the Black Panther's comic underscores this.

    And disenfranchisement can happen in many ways...just because one can vote and marry doesnt mean they are accepterd or included by many as a whole or on a social level.  Republicans could say the same thing about blacks...how are you disenfranchised?  You can vote, marry, go where you want, do whatever.  But that doesnt mean you dont face social injustices.  And LGBT black people face that not only from white but their own.

    I don't buy that the black community is so doctrinaire homophobic. Even Michael Sam has recently said that he experienced more racism in the white gay community than hostility in the black community. I think the rampant black homophobia thing is overblown. What major black thought leader today is anti-gay? Even Charles Barkley, who threw shade on Mike Brown, has come out to speak against the LGBT legislation in North Carolina.

    You say Empire is getting backlash and it is, but I bet you that the rock solid support that show is getting is from black people and it is praised and celebrated throughout black media, in addition to white media as well. So if blacks were so homophobic why are they supporting the hell out of Empire?

    Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

    you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

    The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

    And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

    and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

    The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.
    Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
    Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 03:03:00 pm

    Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

    you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

    The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

    And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

    and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

    The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.
    [/quote]

    Refocusing? Whatever. Maybe you just can't keep up.

    LGBT people compare homophobia to racism all the time. If I was Lee Daniels you saying that you would be nodding your head, but I digress. I never said that there wasn't homophobia in the black community. Homophobia exists in the white community and other communities as well. What I do take issue with is that the black community is portrayed as virulently homophobic.

    Regarding Michael Sam, he said he his experiences among blacks wasn't as bad as his experiences among whites. While I do agree that Michael Sam was talking about racism, still if his experiences among blacks as a out gay black man weren't so bad, I think it counters the narrative that the black community is just so much more homophobic than everyone else.

    I don't have a problem with black lesbians being a central couple in a comic book. I do have a problem with them being the central characters in a Black Panther comic book. The Black Panther (T'Challa, Shuri, or otherwise) should be the main character period. If you wanted to have Aneka and Ayo as the main characters, do a Midnight Angels comic.

    You are assuming a lot about me and reading into my posts regarding the LGBT community. But that's your right. It's easier to vilify me as an evil 'straight black male' instead. But that being said, do I consider racism a bigger issue than homophobia, yes I do. Racism affects both black gay and straight black people around the globe in a way that disastrously alters life outcomes. Black homophobia in comparison to white racism, IMO, isn't as damaging to the whole. Unfortunately some people have lost their lives because of it, but how much power does black homophobia have to determine where black people live, work, what they eat, what they drink, etc.? Racism has that power.

    Fair point about Empire and the various reasons people might support it. In any event, you do have LGBT issues or at least one character as an important part of a show that millions of black people watch and love Empire.
    Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
    Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 03:06:12 pm
      I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

      I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

      This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

      But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

      I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.



      Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

      well...

      I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

      I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

      Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

      Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

      Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

      Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

      A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?

      Shuri was never promoted enough and was pretty much a legacy type character.  Everyone knows T'Challa would be the Panther again and would be the MAIN Black Panther and she, a character that was secondary.

      I and no one can say for certain other than that she wasnt heavily promoted if women would have come to Shuri.  Her being a woman im sure some black women would have come if she also was written socially as a woman and not just someone taking on the mantle of her brother.  And though LGBT lack women may have seen some of themselves in her, they wouldnt have seen that part of them that is often not depicted in most mainstream media and is not acknowledged in their communities.

      YOU seem to be conflating LGBT and women's issues together...I never said their issues were the same across the board I merely included them as TWO SEPERATE GROUPS within the black community.  Ayo and Aneka are both WOMEN and LGBT so that is something black women and black LGBT women can see themselves in...Ive also stated the other female characters in the book are something black women as a whole can see themselves in as well.

      You particularly seem to want or need to see LGBT as something seperate from being black...Im saying overall with this book there is something for LGBT and straight black women to see in this book...and not just with Ayo and Aneka though the LGBT black women who rarely see themselves depicted in any meaningful way will see themselves especially in Ayo and Aneka

      Your last question; The fact that one has to ask that question is the problem.  Its like asking a gay black person to choose and they shouldnt have to.  BOTH often are equally important though depending on how and where theyve grown up, they may be demonized and take personally one moreso than the other.  Racism to a large extent they accept as a fact of life, but rejection and exclusion from their own people isnt always expected and is more personal.

      Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
      Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 03:20:52 pm
        I understand what your saying and truth be told. I don't want this to be a story were Ayo and Aneka are being propped up at the cost of T'Challa and Wakandan males being thrown under the bus. I think it's good to have the them doing things. But now the stories from now on should be 75% focus on T'Challa and 25% on the DM, the villains and whatever else. The first issue did a good job setting the tone. And in Priest's run it made sense for T'Challa to feel like a guest because it was to add to the mysterious feeling of no one, not ever the readers knowing what T'Challa is thinking, and readers and villains alike were surprised when he started closing trap door's. In this case we see T'Challas inner thought's and so we need to have a bigger focus, and I think we will. I don't think Ayo and Aneka are gonna become the stars of this story because it's a Black Panther story, not Wakanda or Dora Milaje. But it's still only the first issue so we will find out by issue 4 what kinda story it Is

        I'm not as optimistic as you are. While reading your post the Blade television series from Spike came to mind. It was ostensibly a Blade series, that was supposed to be about Blade, I mean he was in every episode (if I recall), right? However the series was really about a brand new, and white character, Krista Starr.  All the personal stakes were for her. Avenging a lost brother, becoming a vampire, her romance with her brother's vamp killer. Blade became a co-star (at best), but really a supporting character in the series that bore his name. Blade was the wrapper, the branding for story about Krista.

        This could very well be the case with T'Challa. I don't mind a bigger focus on the Dora Milaje as a whole, but I don't think we need a certain percentage of time given to them. I think it should be organic. And though I am concerned about how homosexuality has to be in everything now like its an edict from on high, it's not a deal breaker to me because I watch shows with homosexual characters, I've read comics with homosexual characters. So having a lesbian couple in Black Panther, among the Dora Milaje, does make sense to me like one of the above posts said. I was reading recently that Grant Morrison's Wonder Woman: Earth One book will have Wonder Woman in a lesbian relationship and possibly an interracial relationship, and those two things alone will not stop me from purchasing that book.

        But as I said before, and let me restate, I wish that more heterosexual, intraracial and positive, healthy romantic and sexual black relationships were portrayed in the media. Portraying otherwise seems to me to be saying that black men and black women can't get along, that black heterosexual love is impossible, that it encourages other kinds of relationships. Basically black men and women can't work and live together in peace and harmony, that we can't build together. So that kind of thinking weakens us as a whole.

        I also don't assume that we will get an active T'Challa in this series. Maberry kept promising big things for Storm and T'Challa in DoomWar and it never materialized. So I don't assume, I'll just see what happens.



        Something I've been thinking about, regarding A. Curry's post. When Curry said that Coates book might draw in more female readership or at least appreciate his efforts. Does Curry feel that didn't happen with Shuri? I mean Shuri was the Black Panther for quite a time. And I actually thought handled well in Maberry's initial run, the "Power" arc. Why is the promotion of a lesbian couple more inviting than the elevation of Shuri to headline a Black Panther series, and even heading the "Klaws of the Panther" miniseries?

        well...

        I must say...You really seem to have problems with this lesbian couple which is telling...especially since this point intentionally or unintentionally missed out on not only whats been shown in the comic, but what I said.

        I said women AND LGBT people might be drawn more to the comic and/or appreciate his efforts...so yes two strong female and lesbian characters might do this.  Along with the fact that other women in the book, such as Ramonda and the antagonist, seem to be and will continue to be central and strong characters as well.  This could be a draw for straight AND LGBT women.

        Shuri is not, I believe, a gay black woman.  So where would a gay black woman see herself included with her?

        Shuri I will admit also was not promoted well and also was a character, a younger sister, who took up the main MALE character's mantle.  Some women would not see her as her own character but just continuing the legacy of a male character who would always be seen as THE main black panther.

        Not to mention Shuri as of this date has always been written by men and arguably never dealt with women's issues as a social gender.  Simply putting a woman in a costume and making her kick ass just like most male heroes isnt really addressing her or writing her as a woman or even a black woman that will focus on issues specific to black women.[/list]

        Thanks for letting me know why some people might have issues with Shuri and not see her as the MAIN Black Panther (though I could see that rationale if it came from a straight black male being considered sexist and misogynist). However, that leads to another question, would some of these supporters have rallied to Shuri if she had been gay? Does she have to be black and gay to get that support? To me you are conflating LGBT and women's issues together. While there is doubtless overlap, as there are with LGBT and the "dreaded" straight black male issues, there are also differences.

        A larger question, does the gay identity supersede the black identity for some gay black people?

        Shuri was never promoted enough and was pretty much a legacy type character.  Everyone knows T'Challa would be the Panther again and would be the MAIN Black Panther and she, a character that was secondary.

        I've long had an issue with how Marvel promotes and markets black characters, or black-led books, the few and far between. I didn't know how many people did know about Shuri outside of comic fans, and even among comic readers, that was probably a smaller slice. And mainstream comics in general have been terrible in how they've handled black female characters, not to mention the minuscule representation of black female talent behind the scenes. As for the legacy character though, good point, though sometimes legacy characters do go on to supplant the originals like Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Michael Holt, and Jamie Reyes. I guess there really aren't Marvel equivalents though. It remains to be seen how long the new Thor and Wolverine will last.

        I and no one can say for certain other than that she wasnt heavily promoted if women would have come to Shuri.  Her being a woman im sure some black women would have come if she also was written socially as a woman and not just someone taking on the mantle of her brother.  And though LGBT lack women may have seen some of themselves in her, they wouldnt have seen that part of them that is often not depicted in most mainstream media and is not acknowledged in their communities.

        Yeah, I don't know either. I mean we just haven't had that experience really in mainstream comics. Even the Storm comic was written by a man. There was a Vixen miniseries a few years back, written by a white woman. But off hand, I can't think of any mainstream series written by a black woman. Felicia D. Henderson was at DC for a moment, I think she wrote a few Teen Titans stories and then she was gone.

        YOU seem to be conflating LGBT and women's issues together...I never said their issues were the same across the board I merely included them as TWO SEPERATE GROUPS within the black community.  Ayo and Aneka are both WOMEN and LGBT so that is something black women and black LGBT women can see themselves in...Ive also stated the other female characters in the book are something black women as a whole can see themselves in as well.

        I'm not conflating anything. In your writing you kept saying LGBT and women like they are together on the issues so I assumed that's what you were thinking.

        You particularly seem to want or need to see LGBT as something seperate from being black...Im saying overall with this book there is something for LGBT and straight black women to see in this book...and not just with Ayo and Aneka though the LGBT black women who rarely see themselves depicted in any meaningful way will see themselves especially in Ayo and Aneka

        I don't need to separate anything. I don't why you keep saying I need to do this. That's fine that there is something for LGBT and black women to see in this book. Though I would argue that perhaps there was something to see before that as well. But I get it, it definitely feels special when one of your own is in a book, is the star of a book, or is prominent. I feel that way myself so I get that. My issue is that I don't think this relationship should dominate the Black Panther title, making T'Challa a supporting character in a book that bears his name. Now that might not be the case, but I got a feeling it will turn out to be.

        Your last question; The fact that one has to ask that question is the problem.  Its like asking a gay black person to choose and they shouldnt have to.  BOTH often are equally important though depending on how and where theyve grown up, they may be demonized and take personally one moreso than the other.  Racism to a large extent they accept as a fact of life, but rejection and exclusion from their own people isnt always expected and is more personal.

        Thanks for sharing that insight with me.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 03:32:35 pm


        Youre obfuscating the point that there IS homophobia in the black community...i never said the black community was so "doctrinaire" homophobic or more homophobic than any other.  And why are you now comparing "racism" to "homophobia" specifically faced by black LGBT?  Were talking about what black LGBT goes through in their own communities...not the greater issue of white racism.  Your Michael Sam point has nothing to do with it.  Stop focusing on white people's racism in this instance and focus on the point about black LGBT in their own communities.

        you seem to do this "refocus" thing a lot.

        The very fact you have a problem with a black lesbian couple being center characters in a black comic book shows how some black people like you exclude lack LGBT and dont want them being seen or theyre stories told...especially in any instance over racism.

        And of course you dont think its a problem in the black community...it doesnt affect you and from your posts black LGBT people are mostly invisible to you since you seem to think its "another people's" problem...why wouldnt their trials be invisible to you also?

        and SOME black people are supporting the hell out of Empire, many despite the gay character in it who again is not even the main focus.  Many black fans of the show watch it anyway but prefer he wasnt in it or wasnt gay.

        The same way you and a few other posters on here will still buy and read this comic despite the lesbian couple in it.

        Refocusing? Whatever. Maybe you just can't keep up.

        LGBT people compare homophobia to racism all the time. If I was Lee Daniels you saying that you would be nodding your head, but I digress. I never said that there wasn't homophobia in the black community. Homophobia exists in the white community and other communities as well. What I do take issue with is that the black community is portrayed as virulently homophobic.

        Regarding Michael Sam, he said he his experiences among blacks wasn't as bad as his experiences among whites. While I do agree that Michael Sam was talking about racism, still if his experiences among blacks as a out gay black man weren't so bad, I think it counters the narrative that the black community is just so much more homophobic than everyone else.

        I don't have a problem with black lesbians being a central couple in a comic book. I do have a problem with them being the central characters in a Black Panther comic book. The Black Panther (T'Challa, Shuri, or otherwise) should be the main character period. If you wanted to have Aneka and Ayo as the main characters, do a Midnight Angels comic.

        You are assuming a lot about me and reading into my posts regarding the LGBT community. But that's your right. It's easier to vilify me as an evil 'straight black male' instead. But that being said, do I consider racism a bigger issue than homophobia, yes I do. Racism affects both black and straight black people around the globe in a way that disastrously alters life outcomes. Black homophobia in comparison to white racism, IMO, isn't as damaging to the whole. Unfortunately some people have lost their lives because of it, but how much power does black homophobia have to determine where black people live, work, what they eat, what they drink, etc.? Racism has that power.

        Fair point about Empire and the various reasons people might support it. In any event, you do have LGBT issues or at least one character as an important part of a show that millions of black people watch and love Empire.

        [/quote]

        I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

        For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

        Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

        And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

        And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

        You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

        Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

        Its funny and sad at the same time.....but going on with this is pointless because like the fans of Empire who dont necessarily approve of the one gay character, youre going to buy it anyway.

        So no harm, no foul




        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 03:56:23 pm
        I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

        So its okay that Aneka and Ayo's relationship affects you personally, or LGBT issues seem to affect you personally? But I can't talk about something that affects me (and a good deal of other black people too) personally? Black Panther to this point has not centered on LGBT issues, but has to some extent touched on issues of race, colonialism, etc. So is it that much of a stretch to assume that the latest volume would also address those topics, particularly since the writer is a person well versed on those topics? I haven't said that sexism in the black community doesn't exist, so what am I redirecting or refocusing from? What I don't want to see is the image of black men brutalizing black women without context and without a balancing of images because too often society has shown black men as brutes, denying our humanity, while also denying the humanity of black women in other ways. It is my hope that a buy as insightful as Coates doesn't pull from that well.

        For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

        I think you make a good point here about who is doing the calling and name calling. That was something I hadn't considered before. But that doesn't discount that black men/black rappers have also demonized black men. And the word 'thug' today is used by some as substitute for nigger like 'urban' is for black. President Obama even referred to the 'thugs' during the situation in Baltimore. Women rightly have protested being called those names, but some black men have also spoken out against that as well, some of them straight black men (a surprise to you I'm sure) have been critical of rap and its misogyny. I do think it is worse for a woman to be called bitch for than for a man to be called a playa, which is still a compliment, but a thug, I do see it having dehumanizing aspects. Not as damaging as bitch, but still damaging. I never said they were equal, and to accuse me of doing so is showing a dishonest streak yourself.

        Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

        Fine, focus on both. My point was that the black community is depicted too often IMO as a cauldron of homophobia and that depiction needs revision.

        And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

        Fair enough you didn't say I was evil...yet. I have no reactionary defensive victim posturing. Is that the new phrase the academia made up this week? Here we go with the 'fragile' male ego thing. What's up with not taking criticism? What criticism? And why should straight black males be criticized exactly? Who's doing the criticism and why? And can those criticizers in turn also be criticized themselves?

        And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

        Read my previous posts, I've never said homophobia was outside the black community. I think you have these talking points and you are trying to fit me within them. Now sometimes my views might fit, but other times not.

        You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

        Thanks for listing some of the terrible things that happen to LGBT people. Admittedly I don't always see the costs associated with being a member of that community. But I'm fine with it being in a separate comic. Why does it have to be in a Black Panther comic?

        Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

        I touched on this a little in a missive above, but to this point let me add. Coates himself said he talk of racism was being delayed, so its not my fevered brain that made that up. And it is one issue, but we've seen just in the preview for issue two that the Midnight Angels will be saving black women from evil black men.  Outside of the romantic relationship we don't know if other LGBT issues will even be addressed yet. We don't know what he's going to focus on in the future true and I've written that sentiment multiple times, but we already know what he has focused on. And the question is why?

        Its funny and sad at the same time.....

        I agree. Though I suspect we feel that way for different reasons.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 09, 2016, 04:54:57 pm
        I can totally keep up, and have been doing so for the last few pages...but bringing up and comparing another issue that affects YOU personally when someone is talking about an issue that affects others is CLASSIC redirecting or refocusing,  White people who dont want to deal with issues focusing on white supremacy and racism do it all the time and men who feel uncomfortable being the focus of their issues in regards to sexism bring up almost non-existent issues in a patriarchal society like misandry do the same.

        So its okay that Aneka and Ayo's relationship affects you personally, or LGBT issues seem to affect you personally? But I can't talk about something that affects me (and a good deal of other black people too) personally? Black Panther to this point has not centered on LGBT issues, but has to some extent touched on issues of race, colonialism, etc. So is it that much of a stretch to assume that the latest volume would also address those topics, particularly since the writer is a person well versed on those topics? I haven't said that sexism in the black community doesn't exist, so what am I redirecting or refocusing from? What I don't want to see is the image of black men brutalizing black women without context and without a balancing of images because too often society has shown black men as brutes, denying our humanity, while also denying the humanity of black women in other ways. It is my hope that a buy as insightful as Coates doesn't pull from that well.

        For instance, your viewpoint on hip hop and sexism...black men called THEMSELVES thugs and niggas...black women didnt give them that name....and they use it proudly and consistently.  MEN called women "bitches and hoes" and many black women called out against it...they only up unitl recently started "reclaiming" the words as some movement but those words carry a far bigger weight in society.  A woman being a "ho" is looked on far worse than a dude being a "thug" or "playa" which is seen as cool.  Thats the difference.  Trying to compare the two as equal is futile and dishonest.

        I think you make a good point here about who is doing the calling and name calling. That was something I hadn't considered before. But that doesn't discount that black men/black rappers have also demonized black men. And the word 'thug' today is used by some as substitute for nigger like 'urban' is for black. President Obama even referred to the 'thugs' during the situation in Baltimore. Women rightly have protested being called those names, but some black men have also spoken out against that as well, some of them straight black men (a surprise to you I'm sure) have been critical of rap and its misogyny. I do think it is worse for a woman to be called bitch for than for a man to be called a playa, which is still a compliment, but a thug, I do see it having dehumanizing aspects. Not as damaging as bitch, but still damaging. I never said they were equal, and to accuse me of doing so is showing a dishonest streak yourself.

        Michael Sam never said his experiences as a gay black man among blacks wasnt "so bad"...just that his experiences among whites was worse.  And im sure it was.   That doesnt mean BOTH cant be focused on.

        Fine, focus on both. My point was that the black community is depicted too often IMO as a cauldron of homophobia and that depiction needs revision.

        And no one said you were an "evil straight black male"...stop with the exaggerated and emotionally reactionary defensive victim posturing.  Again, fragile male egos cant take criticism about faults that focus on them in particular.

        Fair enough you didn't say I was evil...yet. I have no reactionary defensive victim posturing. Is that the new phrase the academia made up this week? Here we go with the 'fragile' male ego thing. What's up with not taking criticism? What criticism? And why should straight black males be criticized exactly? Who's doing the criticism and why? And can those criticizers in turn also be criticized themselves?

        And it really looks like YOU cant keep up because no one said anything about either racism or homophobia being the "bigger" issue...wasnt and never was the damn point.  Racism is an overall bigger issue but that doesnt mean that homophobia as a thing outside and inside the black community cant be addressed too.  Black people can focus on more than one thing at once...especially if that other thing affects a large segment of black people.

        Read my previous posts, I've never said homophobia was outside the black community. I think you have these talking points and you are trying to fit me within them. Now sometimes my views might fit, but other times not.

        You listed all the things racism can cause, but havent of course listed how being a gay black person can and has had black LGBT people thrown out of their parents homes, beaten up and even killed by others and their own, ostracized from their communities, their relationships not acknowledged by their families, and their images excluded from things including by a poster on here who think they dont belong in a black panther comic.  But no, "do that sh*t in a seperate comic", right?

        Thanks for listing some of the terrible things that happen to LGBT people. Admittedly I don't always see the costs associated with being a member of that community. But I'm fine with it being in a separate comic. Why does it have to be in a Black Panther comic?

        Again, Coates has spent his entire career talking about racism, the Black Panther's book has had multiple runs dealing with racism and colonialism, but the writer himself takes time to focus on this issue inside one comic thats never been used to address it and all of a sudden racism is taking a backseat to depicting LGBT people and issues.  Plus its only the first issue and we dont know WHAT he's ALSO going to focus on later.  And you dont see the or refuse to see the exclusionary attitude in that.

        I touched on this a little in a missive above, but to this point let me add. Coates himself said he talk of racism was being delayed, so its not my fevered brain that made that up. And it is one issue, but we've seen just in the preview for issue two that the Midnight Angels will be saving black women from evil black men.  Outside of the romantic relationship we don't know if other LGBT issues will even be addressed yet. We don't know what he's going to focus on in the future true and I've written that sentiment multiple times, but we already know what he has focused on. And the question is why?

        Its funny and sad at the same time.....


        See, here's the thing...Ayo and Aneka"s relationship doesnt affect ME personally because Im not gay...this assumption you keep making just because im mature enough to care about other people's issues and that im able to judge other straight black men like me and myself in our communities is the problem...you assume I MUST be gay and all these false and bitch made defensive claims of me saying "straight black man is evil" and how "its a surprise to me that straight black men call out misogyny" is telling of your overall view.  Im a straight black man who f*cks women who calls out misogyny and homophobia.  so please, miss me with the subtle guilt trip for judging straight black men bullsh*t.  youre talking to one.

        I just happen to be a progressive male that can care about more than one issue affecting black people at a time and even champion issues that dont affect me directly.  Because im f*cking human. Just like Coates obviously is. Go figure. 

        And stop bullsh*tting dude.  You HAVENT been just talking about issues that affect you personally, of course you can do that...what youve been doing is talking about issues that affect you personally and using them to compare and dismiss the ones bought up in this book.  FOH.

        I dont want to see the images of black men brutalizing women either and not sure why Coates has Wakandans doing that, but that has nothing to do with the topic weve been talking about and the reality of homophobia or sexism that exists in the black community.

        And see, I never said that Black Panther's comic SHOULDNT focus on racism and never complained when it did.  Youre the one for three pages now who has a problem with homosexuality being depicted in it or being in the forefront after one issue.  I said it could do both.  See how inclusion works?  You dont have to exclude one group to include another.

        And youve been redirecting or refocusing by bringing up one issue to compare and combat or dismiss another.  You did it with your "hey, what about misandry?" point when misogyny was bought up, and you did it with using racism when homophobia was bought up. THAT has nothing to do with you saying anything in the black community doesnt exist.  Keep up and focus on whats actually been said.

        And if you werent victim posturing why come up with the silly "evil black male" line when no one said that sh*t? And what's up with you saying...yet?  Dude, in your assumption that Im gay or maybe a woman youre trying to manipulate in a subtle way the viewpoint that because Im saying these things, I must hate and see straight black men as bad. Meanwhile I am one Again, FOH with the defensive posturing.  Thats you trying to lead others reading this into an assumption thats not even there.  And its hugely dishonorable. Pointin out issues WE have in our own communities isnt hating us or thinking were evil.

        And why shouldnt we straight black males be criticized if some of us do dumb sh*t thats sexist and homophobic? Black men, women, and others are doing the criticizing and sure, they can be criticized as well but not in an attempt to redirect the argument like youve been doing.  Take the criticism and deal with the damage some of us do in our own communities.

        And nothing in that line you answered said anything about you saying homophobia was outside the black community.  you may make fun of academia but it could help you with your reading comprehension because nowhere in that line did I say that.

        And why ask why this has to be in a Black Panther comic?  Why shouldnt it be in a Black Panther comic?  Black Panther focuses not just on Tchalla but an entire nation of people...so none of them may be LGBT and it cant be in his comic?  Would you ask that question if the focus was on a soldier in a wheelchair?  Or a blind Dora? Or a wakanda soldier with PTSD or who was a former child soldier?  Of course not. Any and all of these images or topics can be approached in a black Panther comic along with LGBT because all of it affects black people.  So again, why shouldnt it e in this comic?  There are other issues that various Black people face other than racism.

        And why?  Why cant it simply be that Coates thought this was an interesting and important topic to focus on along with other other topics he may focus on in the near future?  Why is it so hard to find a reason why a straight black male like him or even myself would actually care about these issues that dont directly affect us, but other black people we may know and love or simply have empathy for?

        Rhetorical question...I already know the answer
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 09, 2016, 05:36:08 pm
        See, here's the thing...Ayo and Aneka"s relationship doesnt affect ME personally because Im not gay...this assumption you keep making just because im mature enough to care about other people's issues and that im able to judge other straight black men like me and myself in our communities is the problem...you assume I MUST be gay and all these false and bitch made defensive claims of me saying "straight black man is evil" and how "its a surprise to me that straight black men call out misogyny" is telling of your overall view.  Im a straight black man who f*cks women who calls out misogyny and homophobia.  so please, miss me with the subtle guilt trip for judging straight black men bullsh*t.  youre talking to one.

        I wasn't sure if you were gay or not, but since you attacked me, accusing me of not supporting something because it doesn't personally affect me, and you've been riding hard on the homosexuality issue, for this instance particularly I did wonder if that was the case. Also the way you wrote about Shuri and gay black women's perspective regarding her, I wasn't sure. But find the evidence where I have made this assumption repeatedly? You can't, because I haven't. It's not an issue of straight black men calling out misogyny at all. If you read my post you would see that I said that some straight black men have done so. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I don't like misogynist lyrics in rap. I don't get the insults here coming from you.

        I just happen to be a progressive male that can care about more than one issue affecting black people at a time and even champion issues that dont affect me directly.  Because im f*cking human. Just like Coates obviously is. Go figure. 

        You're assuming things about me again, but you've been doing that from jump, so no difference there. You're a progressive male, bravo for you.


        And stop bullsh*tting dude.  You HAVENT been just talking about issues that affect you personally, of course you can do that...what youve been doing is talking about issues that affect you personally and using them to compare and dismiss the ones bought up in this book.  FOH.

        So ,wait I haven't been talking about issues that affect me personally or have I? And I haven't dismissed the issues brought up in this book. I've speculated on why those issues were put in the book first and foremost. I think you are very defensive and accusing for such an allegedly progressive person.

        I dont want to see the images of black men brutalizing women either and not sure why Coates has Wakandans doing that, but that has nothing to do with the topic weve been talking about and the reality of homophobia or sexism that exists in the black community.

        What is the topic we're talking about then? Black men brutalizing black women doesn't fit within a discussion of sexism in the black community? And how the imagery of black brutes has been used to demonize black men shouldn't be discussed? So please tell me what should I talk about? You've been good at putting words in my mouth so far, you might as well write them too.

        And see, I never said that Black Panther's comic SHOULDNT focus on racism and never complained when it did.  Youre the one for three pages now who has a problem with homosexuality being depicted in it or being in the forefront after one issue.  I said it could do both.  See how inclusion works?  You dont have to exclude one group to include another.

        You're going on about exclusion when you display an exclusionary mindset for anyone who doesn't co-sign your 'progressive' views. I didn't say they shouldn't be in the book, but you're right about my wishing they were not at the forefront. The book is supposed to about Black Panther. It's not about Aneka and Ayo. Black Panther was on the cover (s). The book has been marketed as a Black Panther book. Now it might remain so, or it might turn into something else. If the story is going to be about Aneka and Ayo Marvel and Coates need to be honest about that up front and not use Black Panther as a cover to promote Aneka and Ayo.

        And youve been redirecting or refocusing by bringing up one issue to compare and combat or dismiss another.  You did it with your "hey, what about misandry?" point when misogyny was bought up, and you did it with using racism when homophobia was bought up. THAT has nothing to do with you saying anything in the black community doesnt exist.  Keep up and focus on whats actually been said.

        Now I'm redirecting as well? In addition to refocusing. I guess I can only discuss what you want me to talk about. I brought up misandry to put things into context. I wasn't dismissing misogyny at all, like you seem to think I was.

        And if you werent victim posturing why come up with the silly "evil black male" line when no one said that sh*t? And what's up with you saying...yet?  Dude, in your assumption that Im gay or maybe a woman youre trying to manipulate in a subtle way the viewpoint that straight black men are hated and villified. Again, FOH with the bullsh*t.  Thats you trying to lead others reading this into an assumption thats not even there.  And its hugely dishonorable.

        You've been knocking straight black males from early on in your posts. I did say that the term evil was one you didn't use, however you seem to have an issue with straight black men, and perhaps feel it is your self-appointed progressive straight black male duty to set all the rest of us Neanderthals straight (not 'straight' straight of course, but in terms of making us see 'reality' or 'truth' or reality as you see it.)

        And why shouldnt we straight black males be criticized if some of us do dumb sh*t thats sexist and homophobic? Black men, women, and others are doing the criticizing and sure, they can be criticized as well but not in an attempt to redirect the argument like youve been doing.  Take the criticism and deal with the damage some of us do in our own communities.

        Once again you seem to be telling me how I can talk and what I can talk about. So you also deem what's relevant to discuss and how to discuss it? Oh well. I never said straight black males shouldn't be criticized. I've done so myself. Even regarding President Obama. Look at some my posts over the years about him on this forum for example. But I don't like the idea that straight black males are THE problem. Criticism with context, or if necessary nuance, is what I prefer. Just slamming black men, without looking at historical and economic and other factors, without looking at other groups and what they are doing-if similar-and then dropping the mic, I'm not cool with that. That's not fair. And it continues to paint the picture of black men as dangerous, threatening, etc.

        And nothing in that line you answered said anything about you saying homophobia was outside the black community.  you may make fun of academia but it could help you with your reading comprehension because nowhere in that line did I say that.

        You wrote about that regarding homophobia so I was responding to that. And academia is not an end-all-be-all. You can be an educated fool, or rather a miseducated one.

        And why ask why this has to be in a Black Panther comic?  Why shouldnt it be in a Black Panther comic?  Black Panther focuses not just on Tchalla but an entire nation of people...so none of them may be LGBT and it cant be in his comic?  Would you ask that question if the focus was on a soldier in a wheelchair?  Or a blind Dora? Or a wakanda soldier with PTSD or who was a former child soldier?  Of course not. Any and all of these images or topics can be approached in a black Panther comic along with LGBT because all of it affects black people.  So again, why shouldnt it e in this comic?  There are other issues that various Black people face other than racism.

        Assuming again. Yes I would ask that question for all those examples. The book is supposed to be about Black Panther. I'm paying my money-in fact this Black Panther is one of the first books I ever subscribed to-because I was led to believe this book will be about him, his travails and his triumphs. I want him front and center. I don't have a problem with supporting characters in comic books, even prominent supporting characters, but I do have a problem with a supporting character (s) that reduces the ostensible main character to a background or supporting role.

        Flipping the question, would you be riding so hard for this if any of those supporting characters were not LGBT? If one of the Midnight Angels was involved with one of the Hatut Zeraze for example?

        And why?  Why cant it simply be that Coates thought this was an interesting and important topic to focus on along with other other topics he may focus on in the near future?  Why is it so hard to find a reason why a straight black male like him or even myself would actually care about these issues that dont directly affect us, but other black people we may know and love or simply have empathy for?

        That very well may be the case that Coates is doing exactly what you're saying. He obviously feels strongly enough about the issue to put in the first issue of this series and from the preview will likely continue to develop Ayo and Aneka into major characters during his run. I don't find it hard at all for straight black males to 'care' about other issues, though I am disappointed that you are making an implication that I, or straight black males who might share my perspective-don't. Or that even LGBT black people 'care' more than about their own particular set of issues. To me, its assumed that LGBT people and some black women are given the benefit of the doubt, but certain straight black males seem to be the villains in your perspective, unless they are enlightened like you and Coates, excuse me, 'progressive'. You pretend to be embracing and open but you've been very exclusionary throughout most of our exchanges and dismissive especially during this latest screed.

        Rhetorical question...I already know the answer

        Thank you for answering for me. You're very good at assuming about me anyway.
        [/quote]
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 09, 2016, 11:35:27 pm
        Well....well damn!

        https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates/status/718549436499148800
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 10, 2016, 01:05:00 am
        Major props to Emperorjones for holding it down and keeping it civil.

        You're that dude.

        As usual Brothas Ture and Kimoyo keeping it 100.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 10, 2016, 02:17:53 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 10, 2016, 03:05:28 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Thanks Sal and Booshman. I tried to keep it mostly civil, even after the cursing and name calling, which I did find funny in retrospect, with bitch being a horrible misogynist word, and it is, but being 'bitch made' is perfectly acceptable to use as an insult. But once we get to the name calling stage the conversation is pretty much over as far as I'm concerned.

        I think some black folks think being for 'everyone' proves their moral superiority and that being a nice person will make them seem less threatening and will get results. That if we extend our hands, 'in love' (like Common suggested), hands will extend back to us, and we'll all hold hands together as we skip down the road of togetherness to Wonderland. What often has come back instead is not an extended hand, but a fist.

        And even the allies who aren't swinging on us, aren't rushing to our defense. They are too busy getting with the people doing the swinging or trying to. They use us when its convenient but discard us at a moment's notice once our usefulness as cannon fodder and symbols is over. And then they have the gall, or the wizardry to use figures, songs, quotes, and other Civil Rights stuff often to 'reinforce' their points.

        Now does that mean that every member of the groups of our 'allies' does that? No. It does not, but those numbers are minuscule and not something I think we should be wasting our time trying to find out. If you ride with us, you ride, but its a waste looking for the 'good' people among our allies. Wasn't it Socrates that went around with a torch looking for one honest man? Who has time for that. 
         
        People respect strength and power, they don't respect weakness and begging. They don't respect people trying to fit in. At best they pity them. And it's funny as well that some feminists would likely decry strength and power as 'masculine' but at the same time some feminists will celebrate seeing Furiosa or Rey kick ass, and what are they displaying exactly? Strength, power, agency. So its not a matter of those things as concepts being 'wrong', its who is using them, or who is displaying them. But some people, IMO, get it twisted and go whole hog, buying the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker. And if they are in fact wrong, then some of these feminists are wrong or hypocritical for praising them. But wait? Feminists, or members of the LGBT aren't wrong, ever, it seems for some folks.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 10, 2016, 04:22:27 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Thanks Sal and Booshman. I tried to keep it mostly civil, even after the cursing and name calling, which I did find funny in retrospect, with bitch being a horrible misogynist word, and it is, but being 'bitch made' is perfectly acceptable to use as an insult. But once we get to the name calling stage the conversation is pretty much over as far as I'm concerned.

        I think some black folks think being for 'everyone' proves their moral superiority and that being a nice person will make them seem less threatening and will get results. That if we extend our hands, 'in love' (like Common suggested), hands will extend back to us, and we'll all hold hands together as we skip down the road of togetherness to Wonderland. What often has come back instead is not an extended hand, but a fist.

        And even the allies who aren't swinging on us, aren't rushing to our defense. They are too busy getting with the people doing the swinging or trying to. They use us when its convenient but discard us at a moment's notice once our usefulness as cannon fodder and symbols is over. And then they have the gall, or the wizardry to use figures, songs, quotes, and other Civil Rights stuff often to 'reinforce' their points.

        Now does that mean that every member of the groups of our 'allies' does that? No. It does not, but those numbers are minuscule and not something I think we should be wasting our time trying to find out. If you ride with us, you ride, but its a waste looking for the 'good' people among our allies. Wasn't it Socrates that went around with a torch looking for one honest man? Who has time for that. 
         
        People respect strength and power, they don't respect weakness and begging. They don't respect people trying to fit in. At best they pity them. And it's funny as well that some feminists would likely decry strength and power as 'masculine' but at the same time some feminists will celebrate seeing Furiosa or Rey kick ass, and what are they displaying exactly? Strength, power, agency. So its not a matter of those things as concepts being 'wrong', its who is using them, or who is displaying them. But some people, IMO, get it twisted and go whole hog, buying the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker. And if they are in fact wrong, then some of these feminists are wrong or hypocritical for praising them. But wait? Feminists, or members of the LGBT aren't wrong, ever, it seems for some folks.

        Quoted for undiluted truth.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 10, 2016, 05:23:08 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Thanks Sal and Booshman. I tried to keep it mostly civil, even after the cursing and name calling, which I did find funny in retrospect, with bitch being a horrible misogynist word, and it is, but being 'bitch made' is perfectly acceptable to use as an insult. But once we get to the name calling stage the conversation is pretty much over as far as I'm concerned.

        I think some black folks think being for 'everyone' proves their moral superiority and that being a nice person will make them seem less threatening and will get results. That if we extend our hands, 'in love' (like Common suggested), hands will extend back to us, and we'll all hold hands together as we skip down the road of togetherness to Wonderland. What often has come back instead is not an extended hand, but a fist.

        And even the allies who aren't swinging on us, aren't rushing to our defense. They are too busy getting with the people doing the swinging or trying to. They use us when its convenient but discard us at a moment's notice once our usefulness as cannon fodder and symbols is over. And then they have the gall, or the wizardry to use figures, songs, quotes, and other Civil Rights stuff often to 'reinforce' their points.

        Now does that mean that every member of the groups of our 'allies' does that? No. It does not, but those numbers are minuscule and not something I think we should be wasting our time trying to find out. If you ride with us, you ride, but its a waste looking for the 'good' people among our allies. Wasn't it Socrates that went around with a torch looking for one honest man? Who has time for that. 
         
        People respect strength and power, they don't respect weakness and begging. They don't respect people trying to fit in. At best they pity them. And it's funny as well that some feminists would likely decry strength and power as 'masculine' but at the same time some feminists will celebrate seeing Furiosa or Rey kick ass, and what are they displaying exactly? Strength, power, agency. So its not a matter of those things as concepts being 'wrong', its who is using them, or who is displaying them. But some people, IMO, get it twisted and go whole hog, buying the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker. And if they are in fact wrong, then some of these feminists are wrong or hypocritical for praising them. But wait? Feminists, or members of the LGBT aren't wrong, ever, it seems for some folks.

        Yeah....I agree with all of this, but most notably the bold. I don't subscribe to that pathetic and capitulating "New Black" bullsh*t ideology. It's both idealistic and naive, because it relies on "hope". Which is, whether people want to admit it or not, a pretty irrational notion. Especially when it's directed at EVERYONE in the degenerate class, in group that "New Blacks" target. Which should be viewed as pure insanity, by any moderately intelligent and functioning adult. Because you're supposed to drop that "hope" nonsense, when you also stop believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

        And don't get me started on the rampant hypocrisy of feminists and the LGBT community. Which seems to take a backseat, in terms of pointing out, because it's "safer" to point at what black dudes are doing/not doing.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 10, 2016, 07:14:06 am
        I believe it was Diogenes who searched for an honest man.  Echoing Brother Sal on Brother EJ's "undiluted truth"...

        "I think some black folks think being for 'everyone' proves their moral superiority and that being a nice person will make them seem less threatening and will get results. That if we extend our hands, 'in love' (like Common suggested), hands will extend back to us, and we'll all hold hands together as we skip down the road of togetherness to Wonderland. What often has come back instead is not an extended hand, but a fist."

        We, "black folks" tried this.  History underscores the truth of our return on the "olive branch" which was no more fruitful for indigenous Americans.  The most dominant human instinct is self preservation.  Only "self" determination can insure satisfaction.  Sure the fates sometimes align and  some individual human interests can be commonly enjoyed.  Yet, as I and several other Wakandan brothers have stated and the BP runs of Priest, Hudlin...and Hickman have shown, our interests are better served by "ourselves."  Hence the "hope" for Mr. Coates and Mr. Stelfreeze.

        P.S.  What are you saying about Santa Claus Boosh!.!  8)

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 10, 2016, 09:44:32 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Sigh...same Booshman..how did I know when my personal friend who posts on here called to tell me about others posting in this discussion you would be one of them using this as an opportunity to continue your petty personal feelings towards me?...and even though I've called you out on at least on two occasions to settle this particular "beef'" in person you still have with me after these many years...you've still avoided it. 

        And how stupid are you to still think that feminism or womanism and LGBT issues are some "other" cause when many black women are involved in it and say the same thing I've been saying on here and there is a huge segment of black LGBT people? 

        Or like some on here, they're simply invisible to you or you just don't acknowledge that it's a concern for black people who are different from you too?



        In regards to your summation...I don't "gallivant" around opting black dudes should put anyone before themselves and don't believe that...there's a difference between putting someone before yourself and considering people ALONG WITH yourself.  You can do two things at once.  But of course, some negros feel threatened at the very mention of simply considering, for a moment, some other cause or someone other than themselves....even IF those people are black too.

        And you obviously have no idea what "new black" is since nowhere did I say racism doesn't exist anymore.

        You and most others on here don't consider anyone but yourselves and your own fragile male egos....and of course this page I notice is now devoid of any black women and any Black LGBT people at all...because you've pretty much made it a place where only straight black men can bitch about their own oppression with no regards to how non straight black men are oppressed in different ways...or how just because two black LGBT women are in a comic book you feel threatened that another "agenda" is taking over your own causes.

        Thankfully Coates, who has written about racism along with other issues his entire life, is more multi-functional and progressive than that.  Which is why of course he is where he is...and he's writing what he's writing.

        Continue on with this small hotep boys club...the world outside, and Coates himself, will continue on without you
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 10, 2016, 10:10:41 am
        Thanks Kimoyo for that clarification.

        As for A. Curry...here we go again with the straight black male shaming. "Fragile'? Seriously? That's the best you can do? No, people are expressing disagreement so you don't like that. But of course, you can't be wrong. You read about intersectionality in a book or heard about it in a lecture, you heard the women you 'f*cks with' talk about feminism and/or womanism so it has to be right, right? So anyone that disagrees, they are wrong, they have the problem, its because of their "fragile" male egos. None of these responses I've read in disagreement to you sound 'fragile' at all. But you have to demonize, vilify, and insult to bolster your own position.

        I don't think anyone here has put up a sign that says no LGBT or black women are allowed, and once again you are connecting the two even though you said you have not. There have been female posters here, but maybe they've left for a variety of reasons. You don't know for certain, but you are certain you have the answer, or rather the problem which is straight black males (surprise, surprise). You keep referring to 'large' numbers of LGBT people, but there are larger numbers of straight black males, relatively speaking, inside this country and definitely worldwide, but their perspectives aren't as important and suspect perhaps in your eyes.

        And it's a shame that you attack the people who disagree with you as not having any other other concerns' beyond their own. I think that's unfair and you have no evidence to back that up, but enlightened males don't need proof though. Just like you these men have families, communities, pasts, you don't know what they've gone through or do now, you don't know what they care about. But we know what you care about, because you honed right in on criticism of an LGBT storyline.

        Kimoyo pointed out how important, vital, and realistic it is to have self-determination, to highly value self-preservation, because just about every other group but blacks are doing that. If we follow your magnanimous example we would be lucky they will give us a pat on the head, or not step too hard on our heads as they ascend the ladder we're holding up for them, excuse, for everybody, because that's what it should all be about. We should be last, they should be first, it's the selfless thing to do. Some feminists and LGBT members are fighting hard as hell for the issues that matter most to them, but you see no problem with that. However if a black guy speaks up, one that isn't promoting feminism or LGBT issues, then he's selfish. I bet you don't get on forums with majority feminists and LGBT and say they 'bitch' about their oppression. You sing along with them.

        Being against racism helps all black people. Now there are divisions among black people, sure, but fighting against it is important to the whole. But Coates is 'more' progressive now than writing about racism in your words. So racism is something that isn't important as the 'real' issues, like feminism and LGBT rights. Have you ever thought that since Coates is now 'beyond' writing about racism that that was the reason he was chosen to write Black Panther? And are you going to tell me, in all honesty, that most white people would rather hear about racism and colonialism than what we've seen so far in Coates's book?

        And for your parting shot, the "Hotep" jab. I've been reading or hearing derision for the Hotep label for a while. I mean, its like you and Dr. Marc Lamont Hill are taking talking points directly from some feminists and some LGBT people.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 10, 2016, 10:31:12 am
        See, here's the thing...Ayo and Aneka"s relationship doesnt affect ME personally because Im not gay...this assumption you keep making just because im mature enough to care about other people's issues and that im able to judge other straight black men like me and myself in our communities is the problem...you assume I MUST be gay and all these false and bitch made defensive claims of me saying "straight black man is evil" and how "its a surprise to me that straight black men call out misogyny" is telling of your overall view.  Im a straight black man who f*cks women who calls out misogyny and homophobia.  so please, miss me with the subtle guilt trip for judging straight black men bullsh*t.  youre talking to one.

        I wasn't sure if you were gay or not, but since you attacked me, accusing me of not supporting something because it doesn't personally affect me, and you've been riding hard on the homosexuality issue, for this instance particularly I did wonder if that was the case. Also the way you wrote about Shuri and gay black women's perspective regarding her, I wasn't sure. But find the evidence where I have made this assumption repeatedly? You can't, because I haven't. It's not an issue of straight black men calling out misogyny at all. If you read my post you would see that I said that some straight black men have done so. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I don't like misogynist lyrics in rap. I don't get the insults here coming from you.

        I just happen to be a progressive male that can care about more than one issue affecting black people at a time and even champion issues that dont affect me directly.  Because im f*cking human. Just like Coates obviously is. Go figure. 

        You're assuming things about me again, but you've been doing that from jump, so no difference there. You're a progressive male, bravo for you.


        And stop bullsh*tting dude.  You HAVENT been just talking about issues that affect you personally, of course you can do that...what youve been doing is talking about issues that affect you personally and using them to compare and dismiss the ones bought up in this book.  FOH.

        So ,wait I haven't been talking about issues that affect me personally or have I? And I haven't dismissed the issues brought up in this book. I've speculated on why those issues were put in the book first and foremost. I think you are very defensive and accusing for such an allegedly progressive person.

        I dont want to see the images of black men brutalizing women either and not sure why Coates has Wakandans doing that, but that has nothing to do with the topic weve been talking about and the reality of homophobia or sexism that exists in the black community.

        What is the topic we're talking about then? Black men brutalizing black women doesn't fit within a discussion of sexism in the black community? And how the imagery of black brutes has been used to demonize black men shouldn't be discussed? So please tell me what should I talk about? You've been good at putting words in my mouth so far, you might as well write them too.

        And see, I never said that Black Panther's comic SHOULDNT focus on racism and never complained when it did.  Youre the one for three pages now who has a problem with homosexuality being depicted in it or being in the forefront after one issue.  I said it could do both.  See how inclusion works?  You dont have to exclude one group to include another.

        You're going on about exclusion when you display an exclusionary mindset for anyone who doesn't co-sign your 'progressive' views. I didn't say they shouldn't be in the book, but you're right about my wishing they were not at the forefront. The book is supposed to about Black Panther. It's not about Aneka and Ayo. Black Panther was on the cover (s). The book has been marketed as a Black Panther book. Now it might remain so, or it might turn into something else. If the story is going to be about Aneka and Ayo Marvel and Coates need to be honest about that up front and not use Black Panther as a cover to promote Aneka and Ayo.

        And youve been redirecting or refocusing by bringing up one issue to compare and combat or dismiss another.  You did it with your "hey, what about misandry?" point when misogyny was bought up, and you did it with using racism when homophobia was bought up. THAT has nothing to do with you saying anything in the black community doesnt exist.  Keep up and focus on whats actually been said.

        Now I'm redirecting as well? In addition to refocusing. I guess I can only discuss what you want me to talk about. I brought up misandry to put things into context. I wasn't dismissing misogyny at all, like you seem to think I was.

        And if you werent victim posturing why come up with the silly "evil black male" line when no one said that sh*t? And what's up with you saying...yet?  Dude, in your assumption that Im gay or maybe a woman youre trying to manipulate in a subtle way the viewpoint that straight black men are hated and villified. Again, FOH with the bullsh*t.  Thats you trying to lead others reading this into an assumption thats not even there.  And its hugely dishonorable.

        You've been knocking straight black males from early on in your posts. I did say that the term evil was one you didn't use, however you seem to have an issue with straight black men, and perhaps feel it is your self-appointed progressive straight black male duty to set all the rest of us Neanderthals straight (not 'straight' straight of course, but in terms of making us see 'reality' or 'truth' or reality as you see it.)

        And why shouldnt we straight black males be criticized if some of us do dumb sh*t thats sexist and homophobic? Black men, women, and others are doing the criticizing and sure, they can be criticized as well but not in an attempt to redirect the argument like youve been doing.  Take the criticism and deal with the damage some of us do in our own communities.

        Once again you seem to be telling me how I can talk and what I can talk about. So you also deem what's relevant to discuss and how to discuss it? Oh well. I never said straight black males shouldn't be criticized. I've done so myself. Even regarding President Obama. Look at some my posts over the years about him on this forum for example. But I don't like the idea that straight black males are THE problem. Criticism with context, or if necessary nuance, is what I prefer. Just slamming black men, without looking at historical and economic and other factors, without looking at other groups and what they are doing-if similar-and then dropping the mic, I'm not cool with that. That's not fair. And it continues to paint the picture of black men as dangerous, threatening, etc.

        And nothing in that line you answered said anything about you saying homophobia was outside the black community.  you may make fun of academia but it could help you with your reading comprehension because nowhere in that line did I say that.

        You wrote about that regarding homophobia so I was responding to that. And academia is not an end-all-be-all. You can be an educated fool, or rather a miseducated one.

        And why ask why this has to be in a Black Panther comic?  Why shouldnt it be in a Black Panther comic?  Black Panther focuses not just on Tchalla but an entire nation of people...so none of them may be LGBT and it cant be in his comic?  Would you ask that question if the focus was on a soldier in a wheelchair?  Or a blind Dora? Or a wakanda soldier with PTSD or who was a former child soldier?  Of course not. Any and all of these images or topics can be approached in a black Panther comic along with LGBT because all of it affects black people.  So again, why shouldnt it e in this comic?  There are other issues that various Black people face other than racism.

        Assuming again. Yes I would ask that question for all those examples. The book is supposed to be about Black Panther. I'm paying my money-in fact this Black Panther is one of the first books I ever subscribed to-because I was led to believe this book will be about him, his travails and his triumphs. I want him front and center. I don't have a problem with supporting characters in comic books, even prominent supporting characters, but I do have a problem with a supporting character (s) that reduces the ostensible main character to a background or supporting role.

        Flipping the question, would you be riding so hard for this if any of those supporting characters were not LGBT? If one of the Midnight Angels was involved with one of the Hatut Zeraze for example?

        And why?  Why cant it simply be that Coates thought this was an interesting and important topic to focus on along with other other topics he may focus on in the near future?  Why is it so hard to find a reason why a straight black male like him or even myself would actually care about these issues that dont directly affect us, but other black people we may know and love or simply have empathy for?

        That very well may be the case that Coates is doing exactly what you're saying. He obviously feels strongly enough about the issue to put in the first issue of this series and from the preview will likely continue to develop Ayo and Aneka into major characters during his run. I don't find it hard at all for straight black males to 'care' about other issues, though I am disappointed that you are making an implication that I, or straight black males who might share my perspective-don't. Or that even LGBT black people 'care' more than about their own particular set of issues. To me, its assumed that LGBT people and some black women are given the benefit of the doubt, but certain straight black males seem to be the villains in your perspective, unless they are enlightened like you and Coates, excuse me, 'progressive'. You pretend to be embracing and open but you've been very exclusionary throughout most of our exchanges and dismissive especially during this latest screed.

        Rhetorical question...I already know the answer

        Thank you for answering for me. You're very good at assuming about me anyway.
        [/quote]

        Emperor I didn't really bother to read your last post...as I told the obsessive Booshman who really only came in on this because of an obsessive thing he's had with me for years now...I came back on because my personal friend on here called to tell me about the the last few posts...and there's no need to keep going back and forth after a certain point.  It gets to be circular after awhile.

        For the most part I'm glad to have enlightened you somewhat on some issues that you yourself stated you weren't aware of...but for the most part you've made your own assumptions as well.  And my assumptions about you were born out of ways you tried to manipulate and misinterpret what was said...and the obvious projection tactics with the "evil straight black male" bullsh*t which was never said nor stated was a way of trying to lead people into thinking what I was saying was about hating on black men.  It wasn't and only the most fragile of black male egos would see criticism of some of us, especially coming from another black male and often black women and black LGBT who FIGHT FOR BLACK MEN ERRYDAY THEMSELVES  as "hating" black men or seeing them as "evil".  That was some erroneous bullsh*t.

        And let me be clear, I fully expected your argument or views would get props on this board...though once in awhile there are severe disagreements on here most of the dudes on here (mostly all straight black men, no women or even LGBT people for the most part posting...Maxine Shaw and others seem long gone and it's very apparent why) think and feel exactly like you do.  Anyone with views that don't go solely and only along with talks about racism and JUST that would hardly get any support on here...I was surprised by bluezulu's polite but excellent statement that started this actually.

        But again let's be clear, considering other things that affect black people outside of racism IS NOT putting those things ahead of racist issues its putting them alongside them.  nowhere did I say that racism isn't important to focus on, but other issues affecting black people who deal with those issues from their own community and outside of it is important too.  Coates understands this and the LGBT women who are a focus in the book doesn't take away from also focusing on racism.  But I'm nearly certain you and most others on here disagree with that.

        We are also losing support...the attitudes on here have already driven away quite a few black women and black LGBT people who have stood with us (again, a black LGBT couple like Ayo and Aneka started black lives matter) but never feel many of us stand with THEM on their particular issues...and in many ways their causes are condemned or "put on the back-burner" as you stated about your own causes.  Many times they're even virulently attacked by their own for being gay.

        Do with that info what you will...we can keep sectioning off our own causes and ignoring and excluding the causes of other black people in the same black communities while we keep getting shot in the street and losing the support of a segment of our own people...Hey, at least you're safe here pontificating and excluding black people who aren't straight and male on a message board.

        I have some issues with what Coates is writing in the first issue and the pics I've seen of future issues posted on here...but him centering on a gay Dora Milaje couple and possible other gender issues isn't one of them...THAT I applaud him for for now...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 10, 2016, 10:50:10 am
        Thanks Kimoyo for that clarification.

        As for A. Curry...here we go again with the straight black male shaming. "Fragile'? Seriously? That's the best you can do? No, people are expressing disagreement so you don't like that. But of course, you can't be wrong. You read about intersectionality in a book or heard about it in a lecture, you heard the women you 'f*cks with' talk about feminism and/or womanism so it has to be right, right? So anyone that disagrees, they are wrong, they have the problem, its because of their "fragile" male egos. None of these responses I've read in disagreement to you sound 'fragile' at all. But you have to demonize, vilify, and insult to bolster your own position.

        I don't think anyone here has put up a sign that says no LGBT or black women are allowed, and once again you are connecting the two even though you said you have not. There have been female posters here, but maybe they've left for a variety of reasons. You don't know for certain, but you are certain you have the answer, or rather the problem which is straight black males (surprise, surprise). You keep referring to 'large' numbers of LGBT people, but there are larger numbers of straight black males, relatively speaking, inside this country and definitely worldwide, but their perspectives aren't as important and suspect perhaps in your eyes.

        And it's a shame that you attack the people who disagree with you as not having any other other concerns' beyond their own. I think that's unfair and you have no evidence to back that up, but enlightened males don't need proof though. Just like you these men have families, communities, pasts, you don't know what they've gone through or do now, you don't know what they care about. But we know what you care about, because you honed right in on criticism of an LGBT storyline.

        Kimoyo pointed out how important, vital, and realistic it is to have self-determination, to highly value self-preservation, because just about every other group but blacks are doing that. If we follow your magnanimous example we would be lucky they will give us a pat on the head, or not step too hard on our heads as they ascend the ladder we're holding up for them, excuse, for everybody, because that's what it should all be about. We should be last, they should be first, it's the selfless thing to do. Some feminists and LGBT members are fighting hard as hell for the issues that matter most to them, but you see no problem with that. However if a black guy speaks up, one that isn't promoting feminism or LGBT issues, then he's selfish. I bet you don't get on forums with majority feminists and LGBT and say they 'bitch' about their oppression. You sing along with them.

        Being against racism helps all black people. Now there are divisions among black people, sure, but fighting against it is important to the whole. But Coates is 'more' progressive now than writing about racism in your words. So racism is something that isn't important as the 'real' issues, like feminism and LGBT rights. Have you ever thought that since Coates is now 'beyond' writing about racism that that was the reason he was chosen to write Black Panther? And are you going to tell me, in all honesty, that most white people would rather hear about racism and colonialism than what we've seen so far in Coates's book?

        And for your parting shot, the "Hotep" jab. I've been reading or hearing derision for the Hotep label for a while. I mean, its like you and Dr. Marc Lamont Hill are taking talking points directly from some feminists and some LGBT people.

        It's a term that fits so well for certain types of people though.  AGAIN, there are feminists and LGBT people who are BLACK.  Black feminist women who actually love black men as a whole and are in relationships with them came up with the term themselves for a segment of black people who think a certain way and try to "police" how black people should act based off of faux "Afrocentric" laws and such.


        Why do you keep talking about feminists and LGBT people like they aren't black?

        It's funny you mention Dr. Hill...he uses that word because once he posted an article being politely critical of Frances Welsing and her views on homosexuality after she died that another writer wrote and "hoteps" came on his board and did everything from call him a "fag" and "on the DL" to basically saying they were going to end his career and his life.  Most were black dudes with a few black women being critical like this as well.

        And seriously, do you have reading comprehension problems?  I said Coates is progressive because he can talk about BOTH issues, not one over the other and I said racism IS an important thing to still focus on but other issues that are often ignored in our community deserves focus as well.  Like he's doing now.

        What the f*ck don't you get about that statement and where does it say I said Coates should never write about racism again??  It's about INCLUSION, not excluding one over the other.  I'm not even saying these issues should be talked about more than racism but included more often. Damn.  I've said this several times now.  Why do you fear so much after one issue of this Coates isn't going to ever write about racism again...even in this comic??

        Sigh...and it's NOT about what "most white people want to read or hear about"...you realize your arguments center a whole lot on what white people think?  It's about what black people outside of the straight male norm wants to see.  It's about other black people being included.

        And again I'm addressing black women and LGBT people as two seperate groups that Coates has said he's addressing in the book and is obviously addressing in the first issue.   Not sure what you don't get about that as well because obviously the words "LGBT" and "gender" issues Coates used made some of you on here lose your minds.  He's obviously addressing both groups.

        And honestly black women tend to be more supportive and connect with black LGBT people moreso than black dudes...though some do.  That's possibly why as well.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 10, 2016, 11:01:59 am
        Thanks Kimoyo for that clarification.

        As for A. Curry...here we go again with the straight black male shaming. "Fragile'? Seriously? That's the best you can do? No, people are expressing disagreement so you don't like that. But of course, you can't be wrong. You read about intersectionality in a book or heard about it in a lecture, you heard the women you 'f*cks with' talk about feminism and/or womanism so it has to be right, right? So anyone that disagrees, they are wrong, they have the problem, its because of their "fragile" male egos. None of these responses I've read in disagreement to you sound 'fragile' at all. But you have to demonize, vilify, and insult to bolster your own position.

        I don't think anyone here has put up a sign that says no LGBT or black women are allowed, and once again you are connecting the two even though you said you have not. There have been female posters here, but maybe they've left for a variety of reasons. You don't know for certain, but you are certain you have the answer, or rather the problem which is straight black males (surprise, surprise). You keep referring to 'large' numbers of LGBT people, but there are larger numbers of straight black males, relatively speaking, inside this country and definitely worldwide, but their perspectives aren't as important and suspect perhaps in your eyes.

        And it's a shame that you attack the people who disagree with you as not having any other other concerns' beyond their own. I think that's unfair and you have no evidence to back that up, but enlightened males don't need proof though. Just like you these men have families, communities, pasts, you don't know what they've gone through or do now, you don't know what they care about. But we know what you care about, because you honed right in on criticism of an LGBT storyline.

        Kimoyo pointed out how important, vital, and realistic it is to have self-determination, to highly value self-preservation, because just about every other group but blacks are doing that. If we follow your magnanimous example we would be lucky they will give us a pat on the head, or not step too hard on our heads as they ascend the ladder we're holding up for them, excuse, for everybody, because that's what it should all be about. We should be last, they should be first, it's the selfless thing to do. Some feminists and LGBT members are fighting hard as hell for the issues that matter most to them, but you see no problem with that. However if a black guy speaks up, one that isn't promoting feminism or LGBT issues, then he's selfish. I bet you don't get on forums with majority feminists and LGBT and say they 'bitch' about their oppression. You sing along with them.

        Being against racism helps all black people. Now there are divisions among black people, sure, but fighting against it is important to the whole. But Coates is 'more' progressive now than writing about racism in your words. So racism is something that isn't important as the 'real' issues, like feminism and LGBT rights. Have you ever thought that since Coates is now 'beyond' writing about racism that that was the reason he was chosen to write Black Panther? And are you going to tell me, in all honesty, that most white people would rather hear about racism and colonialism than what we've seen so far in Coates's book?

        And for your parting shot, the "Hotep" jab. I've been reading or hearing derision for the Hotep label for a while. I mean, its like you and Dr. Marc Lamont Hill are taking talking points directly from some feminists and some LGBT people.


        Oh, and one last thing Emperor...to two or three of your points I skimmed over...

        1.  I wouldn't have to ride as hard for a Dora in a relationship with a Hatut Zeraze because you nor anyone else on here would have a problem with it.  You wouldn't see that as an agenda replacing your own causes or one overtaking fighting racism.  That would be entirely supported on here and not seen as something that doesn't have a place in a Black Panther book.

        Sorry but that was a silly question.

        2.  Black feminist and LGBT sites actually DO include talks about overall racism and even racism against black men in particular on them ALONG WITH issues concerning black feminism and LGBT and issues within the black community itself...so again, I don't have to include speaking on racism overall because it's already included in their posts and discussions and I have spoken on all these topics within them.  Coates is probably doing the same but after one damn issue focusing on an LGBT couple it's like the world is coming to an end.  Try sites like "For Harriet"...started by a black woman and and named after Harriet Tubman.  Racism along with the issues I'm railing for on here are discussed and posted about overall because again it's about being multi-faceted and inclusionary of various issues facing various black people.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 10, 2016, 11:32:02 am
        First off, before I get into this, I do want to thank you for the suggestion of the For Harriet website. It was not my intention to get into a row with you, but once its on, its on. I wanted to better understand where you were coming from, but I'm not going to be down with slamming either me, or other straight black men, just because.

        As for Dr. Marc Lamont Hill, what you consider 'polite' criticism was him co-signing an insulting post about Dr. Welsing. And also Dr. Hill did a video, perhaps on Huffpost Live about "Hoteps" which conveniently didn't include any members of the alleged Hoteps but feminist critics of them, which of course Dr. Hill co-signed. How is that for a free exchange of views? And you can't see how feminists and LGBT activists in turn could also do the same thing you say they say about the "Hotep" people (I said people because I would think there are female Hoteps as well, though it is often derided as a male thing), by policing black thought and behavior?

        You say I am twisting your words, manipulating the conversation, well I know you have twisted mine. You keep harping on the 'evil' black male thing, and I said pages ago by now that you didn't say that, that was my words. Yet perhaps you skimmed over that as well.

        Fragile ego male thing again? No one here has said anything about not criticizing each other, or the unenlightened straight black males. People disagree on these boards all the time. And you skimmed over what I said before about criticism of black males, and that I have done so myself. It's not criticism per se, it's the who, the why, and if it is justified? And does it go in the reverse as well? What's fragile about that? I'm not going to let you attack me, especially if it is unfair, and there is no push back. It's unrealistic to think that people are going to sit there and get bashed and not respond to it. Fragility has nothing to do with that. Fragility would be bowing to that criticism, especially if it is unwarranted or flat out wrong.

        So is it only unenlightened black males that deserve to go the wood shed? Black people are often criticized in this country, talked to the way other groups are not, and its been going on for so long and we've accepted our subordinate status in so many ways, that we accept it, we think its actually a corrective of sorts. I'm not going to add on to that criticism-if it is unwarranted-and if I do criticize I'm going to try to do it with an understanding of the social, economic, and political forces that have warped black life for half a millennium. I'm not going to bash black men because it gets me in the good graces of some feminists, intellectuals, or activists.

        Unlike you I am skeptical when it comes to mainstream media or comics saying they will discuss racism 'later'. Later often amounts to never. And its not the end of the world that Ayo and Aneka are in the book, stop exaggerating. My major issue with that is why they were at the forefront of the first issue. You seem to have skimmed over my saying I've read other comic books with gay characters. But for Black Panther I do want Black Panther to be the star, not two new characters. And if these two characters were heterosexuals, I doubt they would have been given the same spot light.

        Black feminists and LGBT members are black, no one said they aren't. But I also know that feminism and LGBT issues are transracial causes as well, and I can easily see the whites among each group putting their interests first and the blacks going along with that. Except when they don't, which is why you do have discussions about racism in both of those camps, and black feminists renamed themselves womanists as a result of that. And talking about gay issues is not as threatening to white people as it is talking about black issues because white people can more easily see themselves in gender and gay issues, whereas they can't if race is emphasized. So you're saying that black feminists and black LGBT aren't focusing on what white people think? Black feminism is an offshoot in large part from white feminism, so how can you separate the branch from the root?

        Comics are in the business of selling and how it has generally been done, by getting white readership and support. Priest attempted to do so, Hudlin went in another direction, but I would argue the post-Hudlin writers went back to trying to make Panther amenable to white readers. I don't think its a stretch for Coates to do the same, and focusing on an LGBT storyline would make white readers less uncomfortable than one about racism or colonialism. And if you couple that with T'Challa mired in failure and images of black men abusing black women all the more good. Time will tell if the increase in feminist and LGBT readership, which you think Coates has gotten, will keep the book afloat. I'm thinking that Coates new support is from white liberals who like his work at The Atlantic and became of his celebrity status.

        So are you saying straight black men don't talk about issues affecting feminism or LGBT? I'm sure there are websites that do that, even ones that focus on geek stuff, like Black Nerd Problems. But surely you won't find any black males on sites like TheGrio or TheRoot not supporting feminism or LGBT issues.

        One more thing, you talk about non straight black people wanting to be included in mainstream comics. That's fine, but you're assuming that straight black people are included which is an exaggeration at best, but which I feel is erroneous. You can probably count on one hand how many black creators are at either major comic book company right now. Coates, David F. Walker, John Semper (coming up on Cyborg), Christopher Priest (coming up on Deathstroke). I can't think of any others. And how many books exactly right now are headlined by black characters? Cyborg, Captain America, The Ultimates, We Are Robin, Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, Power Man and Iron Fist, and Black Panther.  That's pretty good compared to some years, but not a lot, so its not a situation where you have had a ton of straight black books, written by straight black men or straight black women. I think your perception of straight black male advantage of straight black male privilege in comic books is skewered.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 10, 2016, 12:59:15 pm
        First off, before I get into this, I do want to thank you for the suggestion of the For Harriet website. It was not my intention to get into a row with you, but once its on, its on. I wanted to better understand where you were coming from, but I'm not going to be down with slamming either me, or other straight black men, just because.

        As for Dr. Marc Lamont Hill, what you consider 'polite' criticism was him co-signing an insulting post about Dr. Welsing. And also Dr. Hill did a video, perhaps on Huffpost Live about "Hoteps" which conveniently didn't include any members of the alleged Hoteps but feminist critics of them, which of course Dr. Hill co-signed. How is that for a free exchange of views? And you can't see how feminists and LGBT activists in turn could also do the same thing you say they say about the "Hotep" people (I said people because I would think there are female Hoteps as well, though it is often derided as a male thing), by policing black thought and behavior?

        You say I am twisting your words, manipulating the conversation, well I know you have twisted mine. You keep harping on the 'evil' black male thing, and I said pages ago by now that you didn't say that, that was my words. Yet perhaps you skimmed over that as well.

        Fragile ego male thing again? No one here has said anything about not criticizing each other, or the unenlightened straight black males. People disagree on these boards all the time. And you skimmed over what I said before about criticism of black males, and that I have done so myself. It's not criticism per se, it's the who, the why, and if it is justified? And does it go in the reverse as well? What's fragile about that? I'm not going to let you attack me, especially if it is unfair, and there is no push back. It's unrealistic to think that people are going to sit there and get bashed and not respond to it. Fragility has nothing to do with that. Fragility would be bowing to that criticism, especially if it is unwarranted or flat out wrong.

        So is it only unenlightened black males that deserve to go the wood shed? Black people are often criticized in this country, talked to the way other groups are not, and its been going on for so long and we've accepted our subordinate status in so many ways, that we accept it, we think its actually a corrective of sorts. I'm not going to add on to that criticism-if it is unwarranted-and if I do criticize I'm going to try to do it with an understanding of the social, economic, and political forces that have warped black life for half a millennium. I'm not going to bash black men because it gets me in the good graces of some feminists, intellectuals, or activists.

        Unlike you I am skeptical when it comes to mainstream media or comics saying they will discuss racism 'later'. Later often amounts to never. And its not the end of the world that Ayo and Aneka are in the book, stop exaggerating. My major issue with that is why they were at the forefront of the first issue. You seem to have skimmed over my saying I've read other comic books with gay characters. But for Black Panther I do want Black Panther to be the star, not two new characters. And if these two characters were heterosexuals, I doubt they would have been given the same spot light.

        Black feminists and LGBT members are black, no one said they aren't. But I also know that feminism and LGBT issues are transracial causes as well, and I can easily see the whites among each group putting their interests first and the blacks going along with that. Except when they don't, which is why you do have discussions about racism in both of those camps, and black feminists renamed themselves womanists as a result of that. And talking about gay issues is not as threatening to white people as it is talking about black issues because white people can more easily see themselves in gender and gay issues, whereas they can't if race is emphasized. So you're saying that black feminists and black LGBT aren't focusing on what white people think? Black feminism is an offshoot in large part from white feminism, so how can you separate the branch from the root?

        Comics are in the business of selling and how it has generally been done, by getting white readership and support. Priest attempted to do so, Hudlin went in another direction, but I would argue the post-Hudlin writers went back to trying to make Panther amenable to white readers. I don't think its a stretch for Coates to do the same, and focusing on an LGBT storyline would make white readers less uncomfortable than one about racism or colonialism. And if you couple that with T'Challa mired in failure and images of black men abusing black women all the more good. Time will tell if the increase in feminist and LGBT readership, which you think Coates has gotten, will keep the book afloat. I'm thinking that Coates new support is from white liberals who like his work at The Atlantic and became of his celebrity status.

        So are you saying straight black men don't talk about issues affecting feminism or LGBT? I'm sure there are websites that do that, even ones that focus on geek stuff, like Black Nerd Problems. But surely you won't find any black males on sites like TheGrio or TheRoot not supporting feminism or LGBT issues.

        One more thing, you talk about non straight black people wanting to be included in mainstream comics. That's fine, but you're assuming that straight black people are included which is an exaggeration at best, but which I feel is erroneous. You can probably count on one hand how many black creators are at either major comic book company right now. Coates, David F. Walker, John Semper (coming up on Cyborg), Christopher Priest (coming up on Deathstroke). I can't think of any others. And how many books exactly right now are headlined by black characters? Cyborg, Captain America, The Ultimates, We Are Robin, Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, Power Man and Iron Fist, and Black Panther.  That's pretty good compared to some years, but not a lot, so its not a situation where you have had a ton of straight black books, written by straight black men or straight black women. I think your perception of straight black male advantage of straight black male privilege in comic books is skewered.

        1) you're welcome

        2). It's on?  Lol...is it really? 

        3) I see...so were you one of the people coming on Hill's page saying he was a fag and going to ruin his career? Lol...the article was hardly insulting it was just critical of some of her views as I actually read the whole thing...personally though she had some great views in some things she sounded like a crackpot and the article was being way nicer than I am...but of course any critical look at a community hero is going to be seen as insulting if it isn't completely praising her by certain types.  The same types that take any critical look at black people or men in particular as an attack upon them and hating them.  This and other reasons is why the term you seem fond of repeating from me is used about fragile egos.

        4) of course you think Coates support will come from white liberals because you've shown you really don't consider the other black groups of people I'm speaking about...but even if it is mostly white liberals where the added support comes from...IF...it's worth it for a segment of our people to see themselves represented in places they usually aren't.

        5) "So it's only unenlightened black males that deserve to go to the woodshed"?  Sigh...the projection is getting tiring...you keep on exaggerating this into some ugly attack on black men..."wood shed"?  Really?  And you wonder why with projected, overly sensitive reactions like this I'm using the term about fragile male egos.

        6) plenty of black men do talk about these issues since you asked, but arguably even more have reactions to it like most of the ones on here.  Look at the Marc Hill thread and the ugly comments made we spoke about earlier.  Look at that for Harriet website I told you about and look. At the comments made whenever something about LGBT black people are posted.  Hell, you should've seen the ugly comments regarding the gay black women who started black lives matter when a story was posted about their wedding. But yes, fortunately some black men do talk about and support these issues within our community.  Coates obviously is one of them.

        7) yes these issues are transracial...and many black women and LGBT will say that and fight against being overtaken by white people in this regard  along with racism as well.  Many still do this while feeling unsupported in these particular issues in their own community.  Doesn't mean their issues should be ignored or excluded or not portrayed as characters in a Black Panther comic.  We're dealing with these issues within the community, outside of it is a seperate issue.

        7) YOURE ASSUMING, yet again, that I'm assuming that straight black people are always included in comics...I don't exaggerate nothing but you yet again are making that assumption simply because I'm bringing up a struggle of a segment of black people that you're not a part of.  I'm friends with a few black comics creators that share with me stories of racism in the industry...but let's compare: you have Black Panther who is getting a big push and movie, Falcon is in the Cap movies and has taken the shield and his own comic, Cage is coming out with his own TV series, Cyborg has his own book, War Machine is in the movies...Miles Morales is getting a big push as THE Spider-Man,...I could go on but out of those...

        how many are black women or black LGBT?  Oh...none.   There ABSOLUTELY should be more black characters and black creators, no doubt.  But again, some can push for more inclusion of other types of black people ALONG WITH more black characters and people in general.  This again is what I mean by fragile male ego...you keep responding with defensive and reactionary stances as if I'm saying racism overall or the inclusion of straight black people in comics for instance shouldn't be fought for when I'm saying that SHOULD be fought and included along with these other things that affect women and non straight black people.  I've repeated this several times and you're still not getting it because you're emotionally reacting on the defensive and acting like I'm saying the things you're talking about should fall to the wayside and be excluded when I'm simply saying these things should be included.

        It's amazing you're still not getting that.

        We're done..again didn't read the whole post just skimmed it for a few reactions to answer. But this could go on all week and there are some things you're obviously not getting because you can't look past your own issues that are important to you and many others to see issues affecting others that are black too and fighting racism like you are, but other things as well.

        I'm glad you got some things out of our chat though.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 10, 2016, 01:02:11 pm
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Sigh...same Booshman..how did I know when my personal friend who posts on here called to tell me about others posting in this discussion you would be one of them using this as an opportunity to continue your petty personal feelings towards me?...and even though I've called you out on at least on two occasions to settle this particular "beef'" in person you still have with me after these many years...you've still avoided it. 

        And how stupid are you to still think that feminism or womanism and LGBT issues are some "other" cause when many black women are involved in it and say the same thing I've been saying on here and there is a huge segment of black LGBT people? 

        Or like some on here, they're simply invisible to you or you just don't acknowledge that it's a concern for black people who are different from you too?



        In regards to your summation...I don't "gallivant" around opting black dudes should put anyone before themselves and don't believe that...there's a difference between putting someone before yourself and considering people ALONG WITH yourself.  You can do two things at once.  But of course, some negros feel threatened at the very mention of simply considering, for a moment, some other cause or someone other than themselves....even IF those people are black too.

        And you obviously have no idea what "new black" is since nowhere did I say racism doesn't exist anymore.

        You and most others on here don't consider anyone but yourselves and your own fragile male egos....and of course this page I notice is now devoid of any black women and any Black LGBT people at all...because you've pretty much made it a place where only straight black men can bitch about their own oppression with no regards to how non straight black men are oppressed in different ways...or how just because two black LGBT women are in a comic book you feel threatened that another "agenda" is taking over your own causes.

        Thankfully Coates, who has written about racism along with other issues his entire life, is more multi-functional and progressive than that.  Which is why of course he is where he is...and he's writing what he's writing.

        Continue on with this small hotep boys club...the world outside, and Coates himself, will continue on without you

        Ohhh....ya....."your friend" told you about this page. Chances are you've been F5ing this page like the lonely loser you clearly are for, for a while. Hence why you've been adamant on meeting me in person "to squash our supposed beef." Which reminds me....

        Who the hell are you again, that I would meet you in person? You're hardly important enough to warrant me meeting you. You're just an internet idiot who through his own lack of self-awareness, conflates how own self-importance, with being actually "that" important. Get the f*ck over yourself.

        The reason that more women and LGBT people don't post here is the same reason that this isn't CBR or Comicvine. Because this has generally been an extremely obscure fan page. Not because of supposed "fragile egos", and your nonsense riddled implication that we're anti-women/LGBT. Which we're not. So again, you're being disingenuous; and AGAIN you're putting the onus on black dudes, instead of the people who are actually at fault for what YOU consider to be a problem.

        As for "New Black". You posting the most extreme position of them, and then propping that up as the norm, so you can disassociate yourself from them, under that condition is more dis-ingenuousness from you. Moderate "New Blacks" begrudgingly accept the existence of racism (and sometimes say it mainly/only comes from black people), tend to make excuses for everyone but black folks, put the responsibility on black people for not capitulating (which they mislabel as "working alongside people"), and then call use the dismissive and feel-good label of "Hotep" for anyone who's not 100% self-sacrificing for women and LGBT. It's a piss poor attempt at shaming.

        They, like you, are laughably transparent.

        The rest of your moronic rant I won't even bother wasting the keystrokes over, as it's just you strawmanning and engaging in hilarious personality projecting. As usual.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 10, 2016, 02:25:03 pm
        I'm not going to respond to everything AC Curry said, but a few points...

        You are right about the presence of black male characters in movies and I'll throw in television too, though you are forgetting about Storm, Catwoman, Amanda Waller, Tigress, Claire Temple, Lady Cop, and Vixen, all derived from the comics. And also Fish Mooney, created for the show Gotham. And Misty Knight will be in Luke Cage. So will I agree with you that there has been a serious dearth of roles for black females, its not the complete desert you describe. Let's keep it real here, if it's taken so freaking long to get a Wonder Woman film and she's the best known female superhero out there, do you really think that you are going to see a Monica Rambeau film before her? And the one black female superhero film that did get made, Catwoman was a disaster, so already if there is an uphill battle to get films based on female superheroes, and black female superheroes, then Catwoman's failure gave Hollywood the excuse it needed to not try again.

        But all that being said, you seem to ignore that black men are not controlling who gets movies or who gets comic book series. If they are lucky they get to work on those series, if they are lucky, but its white men who are running the show. However your ire seems directed at straight black men, like it somehow straight black men's fault that there is a dearth of black female or even LGBT roles in comics. That being said, Arrow introduced Curtis Holt, their version of Mr. Terrific, who is a married gay man in the Arrowverse.

        I've never been on Dr. Hill's page, so here you are ASSuming again. It's far easier for you to do that than to listen to what I have to say, especially if you don't agree with it. It's easier to deal with villains, that confirms your ideas about certain straight black males. I mention fragile egos because YOU keep talking about them. That's your best insult or rationale because you can't comprehend that people who disagree with you aren't troglodytes.

        Coates has white liberal support. He works at The Atlantic, not a bastion of black thought, even though he has carved out a space there. Where he works is not made up, a lot of support he gets in the white media is not made up. Is he where he is because of a groundswell of support from black feminist and black LGBT activists? Or was he put on by white folks?

        I didn't say that the lesbian Midnight Angels issues shouldn't be explored in a comic. Find the quote where I said that. But I have questioned and criticized why that subplot was given priority in the first issue of Black Panther over other things. And I speculated as to why that is. And to keep it real, I feel if this story line continues to develop and Black Panther is on the side lines then it will be an issue of Marvel/Coates using Black Panther as the brand to really have a story about two new lesbian characters. That is deceptive. It might shock you but I've read, and liked, some stories about Batwoman, a lesbian character. When I read those stories I was reading them expecting Batwoman to be front and center. If her straight sidekick had dominated the story and Batwoman was on the side line I would think that wasn't cool. That's not what I bought the book for. But once again you have to find something nefarious in that response, to reconfirm your own dark imaginings about unenlightened straight black men.

        Regarding my alleged emotionalism, I think you are getting way out of joint due to what some people say on the internet about LGBT people on Dr. Hill's or For Harriet's, just like you have on this forum. On this forum, a handful of people have responded and expressed displeasure with aspects of Coates's first issue, but you've blown it way out of proportion to an attack on black women and LGBT. Seriously, internet commenters are going to ruin Dr. Hill's career? That dude has been a go-to Negro on FOX News and now CNN. He's been on Huffington Post, he's good. But the idea that he is above criticism, if Dr. Welsing is not above criticism then the people you revere like Dr. Hill are not above criticism either.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 10, 2016, 03:06:38 pm
        Can we knock off the who has a bigger stick and get back to the topic please? Squash the beef and move on.. Or don't but mkve that to private messages, this is suppose to be about BP and what's going on with him.


        I wonder here how the terrorists organization "The people" if the woman in green is apart of that and if she has done sort of ties to T'Challas past. She looks Wakandan and there has to be something for why she is doing this. Any thoughts?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 10, 2016, 03:11:14 pm
        Can we knock off the who has a bigger stick and get back to the topic please? Squash the beef and move on.. Or don't but mkve that to private messages, this is suppose to be about BP and what's going on with him.


        I wonder here how the terrorists organization "The people" if the woman in green is apart of that and if she has done sort of ties to T'Challas past. She looks Wakandan and there has to be something for why she is doing this. Any thoughts?


        Might be the daughter of some potential asylum seekers that T'chaka turned away, decades ago.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 10, 2016, 05:03:10 pm
        What Do We Walk Away With...

        While we "enjoy" the inaugural issue of Coates' Black Panther, a few things stick out. First we witness scenes of rioting, attempted rape and possible human trafficking, misguided capitol punishment, anger, aggression and hatred. I want to give Coates the benefit of the doubt that there is some diabolical under current going on because how else does one explain Queen Mother Ramaonda's sentencing when it all on video. Not to mention Aneka humbled in a slave collar.

        Secondly this first issue did not serve to highlight T'Challa the Black Panther. The opening page has him taking a knee while suffering from a head wound. He is castigated by his ancestors, enemy and his adored ones. We witness T'Challa casually saying "I will kill her for this." mirroring his mother's premature and fallacious judgement. Aneka and Ayo have the only standout moments and they're brand new to the mythos of Black Panther. I guess they're being set up to fly solo in the first African Lesbian ongoing. How well will this serve as a introduction to the Black Panther.


        Thirdly, what maybe inferred about the nation of the Black Panther. The disturbing images shown in the wordless preview posted below may not be Wakanda. The men firing guns is a clue. Maybe it's Niganda or some other country. To make it Wakanda would be asinine, even if the creative team tries to explain it as due to Wakanda being a vast country (like the USA) with multiple regions and sprawling cities. For something like this to slip below T'Challa's radar would be the height of insult to everything the Black Panther is. Such an insult occurred under MCGregor's pen when crack was introduced into Wakanda.

        (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202003-colREV-d93b1.jpg)

        Regarding Shuri I postulate that maybe what she is suffering from currently maybe either post the incursions or a result of her choosing not to have her spirit inhabit her body until she repairs the rift between T'Challa and his ancestors. Shuri on the spirit side could produce some interesting stories.

        All in all what we (especially newbies) walk away with in terms of the first issue is not the most flattering presentation of Black Panther or Wakanda. I'll just have to imagine a Black Panther comic that sells over 300,000 copies with pages of Afrakan people living and functioning in the most  spiritually and technologically progressive nation on earth while utilizing and advancing traditional Afrakan culture.

        A Black Panther comic that highlights the power and intelligence of T'Challa as a capable leader and inspiration for his people and ancestors. A super hero who is a major player in the Marvel universe. A lover who has chosen two Dora Milaje (one being Okoye) for intended wives. We get to witness their complicated, mature relationship and beautiful scenes of romance as they engage in high octane adventures. Concurrent with this we see Shuri as she courts two potential husbands in the Hatut Zaraze. Talk about diversity, I'm still waiting to see this.

        And remember this could all be achieved while having them confront another nation's upheaval if such a story of despair, rioting, attempted rape and possible human trafficking, misguided capitol punishment, anger, aggression and hatred needs to be told. If one were so inclined it could easily be a European nation on whose behalf Wakanda chooses to intervene. The public reason for them invading Latveria maybe? Of course before such intervention, pages of Wakanda helping to advance the infra structure and technology of half the countries in Afraka would be appreciated. Lots of stories to tell.

        A lot of things affect the Afrakan community. Debating perspectives is admirable if true understanding is achieved. Arguing for gay rights, civil rights, women's rights, human rights, hell, animal rights is just wrong.
        Argue for Afrakan self empowerment.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 11, 2016, 12:26:39 am
        Can we knock off the who has a bigger stick and get back to the topic please? Squash the beef and move on.. Or don't but mkve that to private messages, this is suppose to be about BP and what's going on with him.


        I wonder here how the terrorists organization "The people" if the woman in green is apart of that and if she has done sort of ties to T'Challas past. She looks Wakandan and there has to be something for why she is doing this. Any thoughts?


        First off, there is no beef where I am concerned. It has been at times a heated discussion. But this has been about Black Panther (for me) and what's going on with him, or what is not because of my belief (which A. Curry likely disagrees with) that was pushed to the side to focus more on the Aneka and Ayo relationship. So that is about Black Panther, or rather the lack of Black Panther in the inaugural issue of this new series.

        I also spoke about other things, other issues I had with the first issue, but that got subsumed in the discussion, argument, over Aneka and Ayo, and the implications of that.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 07:31:29 am
        I don't even know why Emp bothered with that deflecting "Enlightened Negro" who gallivants around and constantly opts for black dudes to put everyone before themselves. While the opposite is rarely done for them, by said groups.

        Sigh...same Booshman..how did I know when my personal friend who posts on here called to tell me about others posting in this discussion you would be one of them using this as an opportunity to continue your petty personal feelings towards me?...and even though I've called you out on at least on two occasions to settle this particular "beef'" in person you still have with me after these many years...you've still avoided it. 

        And how stupid are you to still think that feminism or womanism and LGBT issues are some "other" cause when many black women are involved in it and say the same thing I've been saying on here and there is a huge segment of black LGBT people? 

        Or like some on here, they're simply invisible to you or you just don't acknowledge that it's a concern for black people who are different from you too?



        In regards to your summation...I don't "gallivant" around opting black dudes should put anyone before themselves and don't believe that...there's a difference between putting someone before yourself and considering people ALONG WITH yourself.  You can do two things at once.  But of course, some negros feel threatened at the very mention of simply considering, for a moment, some other cause or someone other than themselves....even IF those people are black too.

        And you obviously have no idea what "new black" is since nowhere did I say racism doesn't exist anymore.

        You and most others on here don't consider anyone but yourselves and your own fragile male egos....and of course this page I notice is now devoid of any black women and any Black LGBT people at all...because you've pretty much made it a place where only straight black men can bitch about their own oppression with no regards to how non straight black men are oppressed in different ways...or how just because two black LGBT women are in a comic book you feel threatened that another "agenda" is taking over your own causes.

        Thankfully Coates, who has written about racism along with other issues his entire life, is more multi-functional and progressive than that.  Which is why of course he is where he is...and he's writing what he's writing.

        Continue on with this small hotep boys club...the world outside, and Coates himself, will continue on without you

        Ohhh....ya....."your friend" told you about this page. Chances are you've been F5ing this page like the lonely loser you clearly are for, for a while. Hence why you've been adamant on meeting me in person "to squash our supposed beef." Which reminds me....

        Who the hell are you again, that I would meet you in person? You're hardly important enough to warrant me meeting you. You're just an internet idiot who through his own lack of self-awareness, conflates how own self-importance, with being actually "that" important. Get the f*ck over yourself.

        The reason that more women and LGBT people don't post here is the same reason that this isn't CBR or Comicvine. Because this has generally been an extremely obscure fan page. Not because of supposed "fragile egos", and your nonsense riddled implication that we're anti-women/LGBT. Which we're not. So again, you're being disingenuous; and AGAIN you're putting the onus on black dudes, instead of the people who are actually at fault for what YOU consider to be a problem.

        As for "New Black". You posting the most extreme position of them, and then propping that up as the norm, so you can disassociate yourself from them, under that condition is more dis-ingenuousness from you. Moderate "New Blacks" begrudgingly accept the existence of racism (and sometimes say it mainly/only comes from black people), tend to make excuses for everyone but black folks, put the responsibility on black people for not capitulating (which they mislabel as "working alongside people"), and then call use the dismissive and feel-good label of "Hotep" for anyone who's not 100% self-sacrificing for women and LGBT. It's a piss poor attempt at shaming.

        They, like you, are laughably transparent.

        The rest of your moronic rant I won't even bother wasting the keystrokes over, as it's just you strawmanning and engaging in hilarious personality projecting. As usual.

        Sigh...tell yourself whatever you need to sleep at night dude...as for my friend on here ask Ture.  We've been friends since college.  I believe he started this thread.

        And wait, you've spent time for YEARS on this page and CBR posting and arguing with multiple people and on here a good amount of the time and pretty much up MY ass all the time with your personal beef and IM the lonely one?

        The discussion was between me and emperor but as usual you needed to get in it cause I was involved...for my "rants" to be so moronic and strawman you certainly can't seem to be able to ignore them.  That's whats laughably, sadly, transparent.


        YOU need validation from other dudes like you on the internet and I'm hardly ever on here except to view discussions around what my boy posts...and nowhere on CBR...who has more of a real social life?  Negro please.  You came for me immediately the first time I posted on this forum over from CBR like I was trying to hide and sh*t.  And you just did it again.   I don't even post that often, but when I do?  There you are.

        And who am I?  I'm the dude who youve been dick riding for years and jumps on any chance to try and attack...so I must be somebody to you.  And if you've got a personal beef the way you've had for years then settle it in person and not on a message board.   Your "who are you for me to meet with" excuse sounds like a punk move for someone who keeps up a personal beef from a damn keyboard.

        And look dumbass...I never said you or anyone on here was "anti women or LGBT".  This is what i mean your egos are so defensive you wind up arguing points that were never made.  There are ways that a board could be unwelcoming just by the subject matter and people on it and points discussed without being technically "anti woman or LGBT...like dudes complaining about a lesbian couple in the first issue.  Or dudes hoping the couple die early on in the book just because they're gay.

        Your summation about why there is no longer any women or LGBT people on here is just that, a summation.  Again, whatever helps your riding my ass self sleep at night.

        Like I said, you got a personal beef? Settle it in person.  Stop riding my ass from a keyboard Like you've been doing for years whenever I choose to post.  Or keep it up, no matter, and show further how much of a punk you're being.

        Otherwise, YOU'RE  the one that needs to get the f*ck over me.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 08:20:59 am
        I'm not going to respond to everything AC Curry said, but a few points...

        You are right about the presence of black male characters in movies and I'll throw in television too, though you are forgetting about Storm, Catwoman, Amanda Waller, Tigress, Claire Temple, Lady Cop, and Vixen, all derived from the comics. And also Fish Mooney, created for the show Gotham. And Misty Knight will be in Luke Cage. So will I agree with you that there has been a serious dearth of roles for black females, its not the complete desert you describe. Let's keep it real here, if it's taken so freaking long to get a Wonder Woman film and she's the best known female superhero out there, do you really think that you are going to see a Monica Rambeau film before her? And the one black female superhero film that did get made, Catwoman was a disaster, so already if there is an uphill battle to get films based on female superheroes, and black female superheroes, then Catwoman's failure gave Hollywood the excuse it needed to not try again.

        But all that being said, you seem to ignore that black men are not controlling who gets movies or who gets comic book series. If they are lucky they get to work on those series, if they are lucky, but its white men who are running the show. However your ire seems directed at straight black men, like it somehow straight black men's fault that there is a dearth of black female or even LGBT roles in comics. That being said, Arrow introduced Curtis Holt, their version of Mr. Terrific, who is a married gay man in the Arrowverse.

        I've never been on Dr. Hill's page, so here you are ASSuming again. It's far easier for you to do that than to listen to what I have to say, especially if you don't agree with it. It's easier to deal with villains, that confirms your ideas about certain straight black males. I mention fragile egos because YOU keep talking about them. That's your best insult or rationale because you can't comprehend that people who disagree with you aren't troglodytes.

        Coates has white liberal support. He works at The Atlantic, not a bastion of black thought, even though he has carved out a space there. Where he works is not made up, a lot of support he gets in the white media is not made up. Is he where he is because of a groundswell of support from black feminist and black LGBT activists? Or was he put on by white folks?

        I didn't say that the lesbian Midnight Angels issues shouldn't be explored in a comic. Find the quote where I said that. But I have questioned and criticized why that subplot was given priority in the first issue of Black Panther over other things. And I speculated as to why that is. And to keep it real, I feel if this story line continues to develop and Black Panther is on the side lines then it will be an issue of Marvel/Coates using Black Panther as the brand to really have a story about two new lesbian characters. That is deceptive. It might shock you but I've read, and liked, some stories about Batwoman, a lesbian character. When I read those stories I was reading them expecting Batwoman to be front and center. If her straight sidekick had dominated the story and Batwoman was on the side line I would think that wasn't cool. That's not what I bought the book for. But once again you have to find something nefarious in that response, to reconfirm your own dark imaginings about unenlightened straight black men.

        Regarding my alleged emotionalism, I think you are getting way out of joint due to what some people say on the internet about LGBT people on Dr. Hill's or For Harriet's, just like you have on this forum. On this forum, a handful of people have responded and expressed displeasure with aspects of Coates's first issue, but you've blown it way out of proportion to an attack on black women and LGBT. Seriously, internet commenters are going to ruin Dr. Hill's career? That dude has been a go-to Negro on FOX News and now CNN. He's been on Huffington Post, he's good. But the idea that he is above criticism, if Dr. Welsing is not above criticism then the people you revere like Dr. Hill are not above criticism either.

        Emperor, a few points, read 'em or don't...

        1.  I never said or assumed you were on Hill's page...I ASKED if you were one of the people coming on there...it was a question.  Though since you know about the Frances Welsing fiasco it would seem that you possibly have been on there.

        2. I'm aware of who Coates has support from and where he writes.  A lot of white people support black causes and anti racism and even reparations.  Like it or not the support is needed.  But in any case he has also been supported by black people as well. In any case, my points were never about whether or not black LGBT people and feminists support him (they do, along with many other black people who aren't named Cornel West...lol) but him possibly seeing a need to include their images and prescience in narratives involving black people.  Even in a BP comic. Because they exist and don't see themselves included very often.

        3. The female characters you mentioned aren't hardly getting the push or mainstream visibility the male ones are, which is my point.  They usually are there to support the male characters.  None of those characters currently have a comic, TV show, or movie coming out based on them.  So the point is superfluous.  Your point about WW makes it racial and only supports the fact that black women characters are even MORE marginalized then there black ones and though some BM are vocal about this many ignore it or are satisfied with them being back up characters to the male ones.

        And let's not even go there about black LGBT characters. 

        And no, straight black men do not control who shows up on tv shows or in comics...never said that either.  It's about supporting those images being shown.  No right now a straight black male IS in control and showing images that are rarely shown regarding certain black people and it's being said it doesn't belong there.

        And again, no one is saying straight black males are "villains" again with the projection.  THIS is why I'm using the term fragile male egos...not because we disagree, but because you keep projecting ridiculous and exaggerated assumptions just from being criticized. And so are others on here. Happens a lot with us.

        4. It doesn't shock me that you've read Batwoman...she's white so that makes her the gay thing a white thing...and I could be wrong about that.  But you DO seem to have an issue with lesbianism among two black women being shown in a black panther comic in only the first issue. 

        And I get and can see the concern that T'challa is not the central figure in the first issue, but you mainly focused on the LGBT thing overtaking that as an agenda that doesn't belong in the comic...not just the fact that he's not the central character.  And if Coates continues this the whole run I'll see and agree with that point even more...it it's only the first issue and your comments HAVE shown you don't think here images belong in this comic...especially front of racism.  Again something Coates has always written about (despite his white liberal friends who support him) and something always addressed in a BP comic. 

        5. Did you check out "For Harriet"?

        6. I'm not getting way out of joint about anything...on Hill's FB page there was a HUGE amount of Hoteps attacking him...way more than a handful...and no, OF COURSE no one actually believed or thought they were going to ruin his career or could...I wrote that to show how ridiculous and in their feelings they were.  The vitriol was over the top and very real...and most of the posts were extremely anti gay and attacking him and the writer of the article as a fag and and a sell out...just for posting a critical viewpoint? 

        And no one said Hill was above criticism...he isn't.  Who said that?  But he wasn't being criticized...he was being virulently attacked, called every punk ass name in the book, was threatened, and so as the the original article writer.matter of fact, some went to dude's page and attacked him.  So no, that wasn't just "criticism".  Though you referring to him as a "negro" has some questionable undertones...

        And no, I never said the same thing happens on here...I merely followed up bluezulu's point and yes, found your post and one other's disturbing and that was going to be it...YOU chose to address me even though I didn't even call you out by name...so here we are.

        7. Dudes use the word "bitch" all the time to describe a soft dude...many women, even those who are feminists, use it for the same thing. calling a woman a bitch means another thing entirely and even though many have reclaimed that word long ago...there's even a quarterly feminist zine called "bitch"...but please don't try to confuse or misalign how it's being used on here.  I think you know this and know the meaning isn't the same.

        Again, we can agree to disagree but my points about your viewpoint on this stands.  From your posts before you've admitted getting SOME things out of all this, and that's good.

        Hope the rest of Coates run proves to be more entertaining for you.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: bluezulu on April 11, 2016, 10:24:16 am
        Gentlemen. I am happy and I am sure that Reggie is pleased about the increase in traffic discussing the Black Panther; however there are Forum rules. Please read them. While the HEF has always encouraged spirited conversations lets keep in mind that we are supposed to maintain civility. We have a place on the forums to talk about politics. Lets try to keep the discussion here related to the Black Panther. Personal insults simply sours the conversation.


        I think that Coates is dead on with his presentation of political issues within the comic. Priest and Hudlin both said that you cannot have a black character and  not have political overtones in the book. Coates is also in his rights to present issues related to the LGBT community. Just look at the discussion here. The continent of Africa and it's many Countries definitely have some issues related to Women's rights.

        Presenting issues related to women's rights in a warrior culture is realistic. Crack in Wakanda when they are so technology advances and educated is WACK. Coates no crack in Wakanda ! lol.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 01:01:51 pm
        Gentlemen. I am happy and I am sure that Reggie is pleased about the increase in traffic discussing the Black Panther; however there are Forum rules. Please read them. While the HEF has always encouraged spirited conversations lets keep in mind that we are supposed to maintain civility. We have a place on the forums to talk about politics. Lets try to keep the discussion here related to the Black Panther. Personal insults simply sours the conversation.


        I think that Coates is dead on with his presentation of political issues within the comic. Priest and Hudlin both said that you cannot have a black character and  not have political overtones in the book. Coates is also in his rights to present issues related to the LGBT community. Just look at the discussion here. The continent of Africa and it's many Countries definitely have some issues related to Women's rights.

        Presenting issues related to women's rights in a warrior culture is realistic. Crack in Wakanda when they are so technology advances and educated is WACK. Coates no crack in Wakanda ! lol.

        PERFECT.  AND ABSOLUTELY AGREED 100 percent.

        I am going to point out however to Emperor and Booshman that I do remember however poster Maxine Shaw,who was an outspoken black woman AND LGBT, stopped posting on here as much due to what she saw as misogyny and boys club culture on these boards.

        So it's very possible my claims about why there are no women or LGBT people posting on here has merit

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 11, 2016, 01:23:37 pm
        I have tried to keep it civil. I haven't resorted to name calling. I don't take much stock in internet flexing.

        But to A. Curry's last reply, I will say:

        I did a quick look at For Harriet, nothing thorough. Checked out an article about Hillary Clinton showing up at Black Girls Rock. I agreed with some of the writer's indignation.

        What seems is not always what is. I mentioned several things that I took issue with in the Black Panther's first issue, but you zeroed in on the LGBT issue. And I said early on that my major issue with the lesbian relationship was that it nearly superseded Black Panther himself in his first issue. I don't think that is a good way to go if you are reintroducing a character to veteran readers and more importantly introducing Black Panther to new readers. Somehow that has been lost in many of our back-and-forths. Though you did acknowledge it in this last reply.

        I also said point blank that I do want to see more healthy, intraracial heterosexual relationships among black characters in media, because there is a dearth of them. And yes I would rather see that in a Black Panther comic with T'Challa and/or Shuri than a focus on Ayo and Aneka. That being said, I don't think gay relationships should never be in comics. It's going on in real life and I can understand the desire to see gay relationships represented. I'm not saying its something that I personally endorse, but I do understand the desire to have that representation.

        I don't get the racial swipes regarding Batwoman. You agreed that LGBT issues are transracial, so shouldn't a progressive like you embrace all LGBT characters in comics? Though I didn't pick up Batwoman because she was a lesbian character. I knew that going in, but I was intrigued by the character, liked the artwork, and thought the initial books had a creepy vibe which set them apart from other Batfamily books.

        Anyway, I've said multiple times that black homosexuals are black. That being said, I don't know if homosexuality is endemic to the African experience or have seen proof that ancient Africans practiced homosexuality.

        As for black female characters I disagree that they are there solely to support (black) male characters. I think some might be often not well realized attempts at that very inclusion you cherish. And if they are there at all to support males, it is white or non-black males generally. At times we see some of these black females in romantic relationships with white men as the black male characters are often in relationships with white or non-black women. You are right that these black female characters aren't getting the push that black male characters are finally getting, but once again, that's not something black males control. That's an issue with white men and their views on the profitability of black female superheroes, and an aversion to supporting black female heroes (similar to the aversion of supporting black male heroes) in the general comic book buying public. I want to see more female heroes, and more male heroes. I've supported mainstream black female heroes when I could (Vixen's miniseries, Storm's series, Voodoo's series, a good deal of Might Avengers, along with some action figures; and I picked up Genius and Concrete Park), but the material out there is unfortunately sparse. Though not a superhero, I supported Colombiana because it was great seeing a kickass black female lead action movie.

        And while the pickings are slim, when I was doing my quick counting the other day (forgot Michonne), I'm a bit surprised that we've had that many black female characters that have made it to live-action television or movies. Definitely we need more and it would be great to get a solo film with a black female character.

        As for the 'b' word, isn't it a little sexist or exclusionary to attempt to insult me by assuming I'm soft? Is being soft a problem for you? Are soft dudes outside your bounds of inclusion? Why can't I simply have a difference of opinion and leave it at that? But I have to be soft, I have to be a 'b' in order to make you feel tough or right, or self-righteous more likely.

        I have gotten some things from our discussion. It's given me a deeper insight and that is always appreciated. I wouldn't go running victory laps if I were you, though then again, that's your right to do so. 
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 02:03:20 pm
        I have tried to keep it civil. I haven't resorted to name calling. I don't take much stock in internet flexing.

        But to A. Curry's last reply, I will say:

        I did a quick look at For Harriet, nothing thorough. Checked out an article about Hillary Clinton showing up at Black Girls Rock. I agreed with some of the writer's indignation.

        What seems is not always what is. I mentioned several things that I took issue with in the Black Panther's first issue, but you zeroed in on the LGBT issue. And I said early on that my major issue with the lesbian relationship was that it nearly superseded Black Panther himself in his first issue. I don't think that is a good way to go if you are reintroducing a character to veteran readers and more importantly introducing Black Panther to new readers. Somehow that has been lost in many of our back-and-forths. Though you did acknowledge it in this last reply.

        I also said point blank that I do want to see more healthy, intraracial heterosexual relationships among black characters in media, because there is a dearth of them. And yes I would rather see that in a Black Panther comic with T'Challa and/or Shuri than a focus on Ayo and Aneka. That being said, I don't think gay relationships should never be in comics. It's going on in real life and I can understand the desire to see gay relationships represented. I'm not saying its something that I personally endorse, but I do understand the desire to have that representation.

        I don't get the racial swipes regarding Batwoman. You agreed that LGBT issues are transracial, so shouldn't a progressive like you embrace all LGBT characters in comics? Though I didn't pick up Batwoman because she was a lesbian character. I knew that going in, but I was intrigued by the character, liked the artwork, and thought the initial books had a creepy vibe which set them apart from other Batfamily books.

        Anyway, I've said multiple times that black homosexuals are black. That being said, I don't know if homosexuality is endemic to the African experience or have seen proof that ancient Africans practiced homosexuality.

        As for black female characters I disagree that they are there solely to support (black) male characters. I think some might be often not well realized attempts at that very inclusion you cherish. And if they are there at all to support males, it is white or non-black males generally. At times we see some of these black females in romantic relationships with white men as the black male characters are often in relationships with white or non-black women. You are right that these black female characters aren't getting the push that black male characters are finally getting, but once again, that's not something black males control. That's an issue with white men and their views on the profitability of black female superheroes, and an aversion to supporting black female heroes (similar to the aversion of supporting black male heroes) in the general comic book buying public. I want to see more female heroes, and more male heroes. I've supported mainstream black female heroes when I could (Vixen's miniseries, Storm's series, Voodoo's series, a good deal of Might Avengers, along with some action figures; and I picked up Genius and Concrete Park), but the material out there is unfortunately sparse. Though not a superhero, I supported Colombiana because it was great seeing a kickass black female lead action movie.

        And while the pickings are slim, when I was doing my quick counting the other day (forgot Michonne), I'm a bit surprised that we've had that many black female characters that have made it to live-action television or movies. Definitely we need more and it would be great to get a solo film with a black female character.

        As for the 'b' word, isn't it a little sexist or exclusionary to attempt to insult me by assuming I'm soft? Is being soft a problem for you? Why can't I simply have a difference of opinion and leave it at that? But I have to be soft, I have to be a 'b' in order to make you feel tough or right, or self-righteous more likely.

        I have gotten some things from our discussion. It's given me a deeper insight and that is always appreciated. I wouldn't go running victory laps if I were you, though then again, that's your right to do so.

        Oh god.  No one's "running victory laps"...now see I try to be civil and polite and you get condescending.  SMH. Couldn't you just have left it at you got some things out of it?

        And the "b" word was used to point out that you were being overly defensive and reactionary about stuff that wasnt there and that you were exaggerating on.  You were being "soft" in that regard about the wrong things.  And no it's not sexist because that word means something different in regards to women.   

        My point about Batwoman is that YOU were probably more comfortable with her because she was white and it doesn't hit "home" for you as much as seeing two black lesbian Dora Milaje in a BP book.  I don't see how you saw that as a racial swipe.  Unless you're dying to misalign my point and what I said.

        I zeroed in on the LGBT thing because you did not just say your issue was that it nearly superseded Pantherin his own book...you said it DID NOT BELONG IN ABLACK PANTHER BOOK.  That is a direct quote. And you did talk about that one thing more than you did anything else.

        Nothing wrong with wanting to see more healthy, heterosexual relationships with black people in comics.  Also nothing wrong with seeing BOTH.

        And of course you'd rather see heterosexual relations involving Panther or Shuri...you're Herero.  Understandable.  And you should.  And maybe you will soon. But again nothing wrong with seeing this too

        You're summation about black female characters is fine...but I think we can free that they are not as prominent or getting as much of a push as black male characters.  And black LGBT IS pretty much non existent.

        You read one post on for Harriet and decided it's not that thorough?  Lol...in any case I wasn't looking for your approval or concern that it was "thorough" or not, but that black feminist sites actually do address racism issues along with feminist and LGBT issues.  Because you asked the question.











        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 11, 2016, 02:25:25 pm
        You've been condescending and insulting, so I can't always be civil. But at least I didn't curse you. Can you dish it out and not take it?

        Find the quote where I said that black lesbians don't belong in a Black Panther comic. Find the direct quote where I said that. Not your estimation or speculation, but the direct quote.

        When I respond to you, you keep saying I'm 'misaligning' or 'refocusing' or whatever. You are basically casting aspersions on me, saying I'm being underhanded, which you have done throughout these conversations. I explained to you why I liked Batwoman. Her race had nothing to do with it. I have said over and over and over I don't want the Ayo and Aneka relationship given priority over Black Panther. If they were two new heterosexual characters I would not want them given priority either.

        But let me repeat, I don't endorse homosexuality and I do believe that homosexuality is being promoted or celebrated in the media today. Jason Collins didn't get an invite to the State of the Union because of what he did on the basketball court, he got it for coming out, and that's just one example. Heck, President Obama went to Africa and lectured some Africans about LGBT rights, another example. You can call it inclusion, okay, let's call it that. But its concerted and Coates is doing that here. Of course he has the right to do so, it is a part of black life. My concern is that that will be at the forefront, because it will be more acceptable to whites, than other social, political, and economic issues that are more thornier. It's a safe route, a path of least resistance that possibly could sideline Black Panther. As I've said before, I don't know for certain. It is the first issue. But I am allowed the freedom to speculate. Unless I'm not allowed to do that either.

        I said I looked at For Harriet, but I did not look at the site thoroughly, I guess I need to spell it out more directly for you, since you are always looking for something to offend you. You accuse me of being defensive, but for a good deal of these discussions you've been hyperventilating. I should stop responding a while ago, but I did want to understand where you were coming from. I read one article, which I partly agreed with on the site. Now, am I supposed to agree with every article on For Harriet?

        Perhaps what you perceive as misaligning is you just not reading comprehensively what I'm writing. Or its getting twisted up in your own mind and self-righteous desire to cape and smite anyone who disagrees with you or you think disagrees with you.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 02:58:09 pm
        You've been condescending and insulting, so I can't always be civil. But at least I didn't curse you. Can you dish it out and not take it?

        Find the quote where I said that black lesbians don't belong in a Black Panther comic. Find the direct quote where I said that. Not your estimation or speculation, but the direct quote.

        When I respond to you, you keep saying I'm 'misaligning' or 'refocusing' or whatever. You are basically casting aspersions on me, saying I'm being underhanded, which you have done throughout these conversations. I explained to you why I liked Batwoman. Her race had nothing to do with it. I have said over and over and over I don't want the Ayo and Aneka relationship given priority over Black Panther. If they were two new heterosexual characters I would not want them given priority either.

        But let me repeat, I don't endorse homosexuality and I do believe that homosexuality is being promoted or celebrated in the media today. Jason Collins didn't get an invite to the State of the Union because of what he did on the basketball court, he got it for coming out, and that's just one example. Heck, President Obama went to Africa and lectured some Africans about LGBT rights, another example. You can call it inclusion, okay, let's call it that. But its concerted and Coates is doing that here. Of course he has the right to do so, it is a part of black life. My concern is that that will be at the forefront, because it will be more acceptable to whites, than other social, political, and economic issues that are more thornier. It's a safe route, a path of least resistance that possibly could sideline Black Panther. As I've said before, I don't know for certain. It is the first issue. But I am allowed the freedom to speculate. Unless I'm not allowed to do that either.

        I said I looked at For Harriet, but I did not look at the site thoroughly, I guess I need to spell it out more directly for you, since you are always looking for something to offend you. You accuse me of being defensive, but for a good deal of these discussions you've been hyperventilating. I should stop responding a while ago, but I did want to understand where you were coming from. I read one article, which I partly agreed with on the site. Now, am I supposed to agree with every article on For Harriet?

        Perhaps what you perceive as misaligning is you just not reading comprehensively what I'm writing. Or its getting twisted up in your own mind and self-righteous desire to cape and smite anyone who disagrees with you or you think disagrees with you.

        Im being civil now and especially after bluezulu's last post.  Can't you be the bigger man and be civil or at least do as the moderator asked?  Or are you looking for a fight with your "can you dish it out and not take it" schoolyard taunt?  Cause I think I've shown I can take it and give out even more from various posts so far.

        And I really don't see how you got me not being "progressive" enough with the whole Batwoman thing cause my post was more about you than me accepting that LGBT is transracial.  Since I'm guessing you can actually read the only other conclusion is that you might be trying to misalign my points...which is a form of redirecting.  I could be wrong though.  And you HAVE been redirecting, which isn't necessarily underhanded but a defense tactic.  Again it's akin to white people bringing up "black on black crime" when we are talking about police brutality on black people.  Bringing up "misandry" when one is talking about "misogyny" like you did is the same thing.

        And again, you're not being entirely truthful...you didn't just say that the Ayo and Aneka relationship should not take priority over Black Panther....you said and I quote "this doesn't belong in a Black Panther comic"..that again was a direct quote.  It's supported by the fact you just said that you don't endorse homosexuality...which is your choice and right.  It's my choice and right to challenge that viewpoint. You're "allowed" to do anything you want. I'm allowed to refute and speak on it.

        And of course homosexuality is being promoted and celebrated in the media...and it is concerted...though there is a segment of media and even cities that still condones it.  But there's nothing wrong with that because promoting something is a way of gaining acceptance.  A concerted effort focuses it and strengthens the cause.  And just like you "cape" for fighting racism and heterosexual black relationships...others "cape" for that AND these other issues as well.  Like Coates probably does.

        So your point?

        Sigh...dude...if you think me laughing at you looking at one article on for Harriet and finding it not thorough is me being"offended" or "hyperventilating". You've really got other issues.  I wasn't even looking for you to find it to be thorough.  I was just providing you a source for a question you asked.  And again, who said you had to look at or even agree with EVERY article on the site?  You're projecting again.

        Yeah, you should stop responding now...you're flailing about, arguing points that were never there, and obviously still looking, in your polite manner, for a fight. 

        Let it go.

        But of course, you most likely won't.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 11, 2016, 03:07:32 pm
        I wonder if some of the issues people are having with the first issue might be answered by this being Coates first comic book.  To him, this is all new territory.  Serial fiction is different than other types of writing.  If he had few more years of experience, maybe his approach would have been different.  I don't mean he would change the substance but how he presents the substance.  A more experienced comic book writer might have focused more on BP in the first issue and how Wakanda is "golden" before getting into the troubles and lives of new characters. 
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 11, 2016, 03:22:30 pm
        I wonder if some of the issues people are having with the first issue might be answered by this being Coates first comic book.  To him, this is all new territory.  Serial fiction is different than other types of writing.  If he had few more years of experience, maybe his approach would have been different.  I don't mean he would change the substance but how he presents the substance.  A more experienced comic book writer might have focused more on BP in the first issue and how Wakanda is "golden" before getting into the troubles and lives of new characters. 


        IDK KIp. Maybe. Hudlin technically didn't even have T'Challa in the first issue giving credence to your theory. However comments made about Priest's first issue having a narrator who took up too much panel space, not too mention his Pulp Fiction-esque storytelling and Priest is seasoned. People like what hey like, the trick is to get them to like what you like.

        Based on Coates first issue what is there to like? No sarcasm at all. The story, the writing, the art, the characters, layout, the politics, the fact that it sold 300,000 copies exposing the Black Panther to a vast array people ...these are a few of the things to choose from.


        The questions remains...

        What Do We Walk Away With...

        While we "enjoy" the inaugural issue of Coates' Black Panther, a few things stick out. First we witness scenes of rioting, attempted rape and possible human trafficking, misguided capitol punishment, anger, aggression and hatred. I want to give Coates the benefit of the doubt that there is some diabolical under current going on because how else does one explain Queen Mother Ramaonda's sentencing when it all on video. Not to mention Aneka humbled in a slave collar.

        Secondly this first issue did not serve to highlight T'Challa the Black Panther. The opening page has him taking a knee while suffering from a head wound. He is castigated by his ancestors, enemy and his adored ones. We witness T'Challa casually saying "I will kill her for this." mirroring his mother's premature and fallacious judgement. Aneka and Ayo have the only standout moments and they're brand new to the mythos of Black Panther. I guess they're being set up to fly solo in the first African Lesbian ongoing. How well will this serve as a introduction to the Black Panther.


        Thirdly, what maybe inferred about the nation of the Black Panther. The disturbing images shown in the wordless preview posted below may not be Wakanda. The men firing guns is a clue. Maybe it's Niganda or some other country. To make it Wakanda would be asinine, even if the creative team tries to explain it as due to Wakanda being a vast country (like the USA) with multiple regions and sprawling cities. For something like this to slip below T'Challa's radar would be the height of insult to everything the Black Panther is. Such an insult occurred under MCGregor's pen when crack was introduced into Wakanda.

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP202003-colREV-d93b1.jpg[/url])

        Regarding Shuri I postulate that maybe what she is suffering from currently maybe either post the incursions or a result of her choosing not to have her spirit inhabit her body until she repairs the rift between T'Challa and his ancestors. Shuri on the spirit side could produce some interesting stories.

        All in all what we (especially newbies) walk away with in terms of the first issue is not the most flattering presentation of Black Panther or Wakanda. I'll just have to imagine a Black Panther comic that sells over 300,000 copies with pages of Afrakan people living and functioning in the most  spiritually and technologically progressive nation on earth while utilizing and advancing traditional Afrakan culture.

        A Black Panther comic that highlights the power and intelligence of T'Challa as a capable leader and inspiration for his people and ancestors. A super hero who is a major player in the Marvel universe. A lover who has chosen two Dora Milaje (one being Okoye) for intended wives. We get to witness their complicated, mature relationship and beautiful scenes of romance as they engage in high octane adventures. Concurrent with this we see Shuri as she courts two potential husbands in the Hatut Zaraze. Talk about diversity, I'm still waiting to see this.

        And remember this could all be achieved while having them confront another nation's upheaval if such a story of despair, rioting, attempted rape and possible human trafficking, misguided capitol punishment, anger, aggression and hatred needs to be told. If one were so inclined it could easily be a European nation on whose behalf Wakanda chooses to intervene. The public reason for them invading Latveria maybe? Of course before such intervention, pages of Wakanda helping to advance the infra structure and technology of half the countries in Afraka would be appreciated. Lots of stories to tell.

        A lot of things affect the Afrakan community. Debating perspectives is admirable if true understanding is achieved. Arguing for gay rights, civil rights, women's rights, human rights, hell, animal rights is just wrong.
        Argue for Afrakan self empowerment.


        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 11, 2016, 03:38:56 pm
        Sigh...tell yourself whatever you need to sleep at night dude...as for my friend on here ask Ture.  We've been friends since college.  I believe he started this thread.

        And wait, you've spent time for YEARS on this page and CBR posting and arguing with multiple people and on here a good amount of the time and pretty much up MY ass all the time with your personal beef and IM the lonely one?

        The discussion was between me and emperor but as usual you needed to get in it cause I was involved...for my "rants" to be so moronic and strawman you certainly can't seem to be able to ignore them.  That's whats laughably, sadly, transparent.


        YOU need validation from other dudes like you on the internet and I'm hardly ever on here except to view discussions around what my boy posts...and nowhere on CBR...who has more of a real social life?  Negro please.  You came for me immediately the first time I posted on this forum over from CBR like I was trying to hide and sh*t.  And you just did it again.   I don't even post that often, but when I do?  There you are.

        And who am I?  I'm the dude who youve been dick riding for years and jumps on any chance to try and attack...so I must be somebody to you.  And if you've got a personal beef the way you've had for years then settle it in person and not on a message board.   Your "who are you for me to meet with" excuse sounds like a punk move for someone who keeps up a personal beef from a damn keyboard.

        And look dumbass...I never said you or anyone on here was "anti women or LGBT".  This is what i mean your egos are so defensive you wind up arguing points that were never made.  There are ways that a board could be unwelcoming just by the subject matter and people on it and points discussed without being technically "anti woman or LGBT...like dudes complaining about a lesbian couple in the first issue.  Or dudes hoping the couple die early on in the book just because they're gay.

        Your summation about why there is no longer any women or LGBT people on here is just that, a summation.  Again, whatever helps your riding my ass self sleep at night.

        Like I said, you got a personal beef? Settle it in person.  Stop riding my ass from a keyboard Like you've been doing for years whenever I choose to post.  Or keep it up, no matter, and show further how much of a punk you're being.

        Otherwise, YOU'RE  the one that needs to get the f*ck over me.

        So much self-victimization and personality projecting in this post, that it's hilarious. Calling your silly BS out isn't "riding your ass."  That's just a nice, "feel good", reactionary, justification that you use. One that is filled with faux outrage, and is doled out by you to cope with being unprepared over being outed as the disingenuous idiot that you are. If you're this thin skinned, on the internet that you want to act like you want to fight people over mere words, then I'm wondering how you function in a society of laws. Because despite how badly you want to prop yourself up as "enlightened", you still act as though you want to fight someone over words. Like one of the hyperviolent, low-grade, and low-functioning "Hood Niggas" that the rest of us (even the ones who live in an urban setting, but aren't idiots) are embarrassed by.

        A la, something along the lines of "Whatchu say? Meet me in da street, yo!"

        You're both pathetically unhinged and (part of the reason why I converse with you) flat out amusing to me.

        I haven't been "riding you" for years. Because I barely ever respond to you. (Don't be an idiot again, and do something like misinterpret the word "barely" to mean "never") I just respond to your more stupid/nutty of posts. While I opt to give you a break, with your lesser offenses. The fact that you ignored that, the obvious, and wanted to play the victim is telling.

        I also like how you're now using the word "projecting", against someone else, after you were appropriately labeled as doing that, by me.

        And you blatantly implied that most/enough people here were anti-women/anti-LGBT. Which is complete and utter nonsense, and in reality is just you getting angry because those who hold a different opinion than you, and know what "priorities" are, want a character's book to focus on the titular character more in the crucial beginning phase. One who actually needs to be focused on. You're doing the equivalent of getting mad at the lesser known Fatality being the focus (hypothetically speaking...she wasn't) in the beginning of the long-awaited John Stewart (the black Green Lantern) book. The book that aims to get more people to like him. And then accusing his fans of being sexist, a "Hotep", and "being a boys club" because they want a character (who gets little panel time and has been pretty isolated) in his own long-awaited book to have more focus. Which is both short-sighted and makes you a dishonest piece of crap.

        And "no" your post about Maxine (who was actually one of my favorite posters here, because she was so fantastically blunt and straight-up) doesn't really have any merit. Because as I seem to remember, she flatout left due to the back and forth spats she had with a single poster here. Using that to "cleverly" malign and/or imply something about the forum in aggregate, is just you trying to be opportunistic. By making a deliberate exaggeration of the truth.

        This is EXACTLY what I mean about you being a disingenuous idiot.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: JRCarter on April 11, 2016, 04:06:45 pm
        The Mission: Marvel's Black Panther, Wakandan Colors and the Forgotten Warrior

        http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-marvels-black-panther-wakandan-colors-and-the-forgotten-warrior (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-mission-marvels-black-panther-wakandan-colors-and-the-forgotten-warrior)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 04:12:13 pm
        Sigh...tell yourself whatever you need to sleep at night dude...as for my friend on here ask Ture.  We've been friends since college.  I believe he started this thread.

        And wait, you've spent time for YEARS on this page and CBR posting and arguing with multiple people and on here a good amount of the time and pretty much up MY ass all the time with your personal beef and IM the lonely one?

        The discussion was between me and emperor but as usual you needed to get in it cause I was involved...for my "rants" to be so moronic and strawman you certainly can't seem to be able to ignore them.  That's whats laughably, sadly, transparent.


        YOU need validation from other dudes like you on the internet and I'm hardly ever on here except to view discussions around what my boy posts...and nowhere on CBR...who has more of a real social life?  Negro please.  You came for me immediately the first time I posted on this forum over from CBR like I was trying to hide and sh*t.  And you just did it again.   I don't even post that often, but when I do?  There you are.

        And who am I?  I'm the dude who youve been dick riding for years and jumps on any chance to try and attack...so I must be somebody to you.  And if you've got a personal beef the way you've had for years then settle it in person and not on a message board.   Your "who are you for me to meet with" excuse sounds like a punk move for someone who keeps up a personal beef from a damn keyboard.

        And look dumbass...I never said you or anyone on here was "anti women or LGBT".  This is what i mean your egos are so defensive you wind up arguing points that were never made.  There are ways that a board could be unwelcoming just by the subject matter and people on it and points discussed without being technically "anti woman or LGBT...like dudes complaining about a lesbian couple in the first issue.  Or dudes hoping the couple die early on in the book just because they're gay.

        Your summation about why there is no longer any women or LGBT people on here is just that, a summation.  Again, whatever helps your riding my ass self sleep at night.

        Like I said, you got a personal beef? Settle it in person.  Stop riding my ass from a keyboard Like you've been doing for years whenever I choose to post.  Or keep it up, no matter, and show further how much of a punk you're being.

        Otherwise, YOU'RE  the one that needs to get the f*ck over me.

        So much self-victimization and personality projecting in this post, that it's hilarious. Calling your silly BS out isn't "riding your ass."  That's just a nice, "feel good", reactionary, justification that you use. One that is filled with faux outrage, and is doled out by you to cope with being unprepared over being outed as the disingenuous idiot that you are. If you're this thin skinned, on the internet that you want to act like you want to fight people over mere words, then I'm wondering how you function in a society of laws. Because despite how badly you want to prop yourself up as "enlightened", you still act as though you want to fight someone over words. Like one of the hyperviolent, low-grade, and low-functioning "Hood Niggas" that the rest of us (even the ones who live in an urban setting, but aren't idiots) are embarrassed by.

        A la, something along the lines of "Whatchu say? Meet me in da street, yo!"

        You're both pathetically unhinged and (part of the reason why I converse with you) flat out amusing to me.

        I haven't been "riding you" for years. Because I barely ever respond to you. (Don't be an idiot again, and do something like misinterpret the word "barely" to mean "never") I just respond to your more stupid/nutty of posts. While I opt to give you a break, with your lesser offenses. The fact that you ignored that, the obvious, and wanted to play the victim is telling.

        I also like how you're now using the word "projecting", against someone else, after you were appropriately labeled as doing that, by me.

        And you blatantly implied that most/enough people here were anti-women/anti-LGBT. Which is complete and utter nonsense, and in reality is just you getting angry because those who hold a different opinion than you, and know what "priorities" are, want a character's book to focus on the titular character more in the crucial beginning phase. One who actually needs to be focused on. You're doing the equivalent of getting mad at the lesser known Fatality being the focus (hypothetically speaking...she wasn't) in the beginning of the long-awaited John Stewart (the black Green Lantern) book. The book that aims to get more people to like him. And then accusing his fans of being sexist, a "Hotep", and "being a boys club" because they want a character (who gets little panel time and has been pretty isolated) in his own long-awaited book to have more focus. Which is both short-sighted and makes you a dishonest piece of crap.

        And "no" your post about Maxine (who was actually one of my favorite posters here, because she was so fantastically blunt and straight-up) doesn't really have any merit. Because as I seem to remember, she flatout left due to the back and forth spats she had with a single poster here. Using that to "cleverly" malign and/or imply something about the forum in aggregate, is just you trying to be opportunistic. By making a deliberate exaggeration of the truth.

        This is EXACTLY what I mean about you being a disingenuous idiot.

        Now see mr moderator, my resident stalker isn't playing nice.

        Sigh...

        "Implication" is a loaded word and I didn't imply anything. You use words like "imply" and "assume" and use the same misdirection and ignorant lack of comprehension skills you've been awful at for years.

         Nowhere did I say everyone on here was anti anything but of course in your delusional obsession with me you need to try and claim that.  I said two posters on here had posts that were disturbing and one definitely anti LGBT.


        I remember what Maxine Shaw said and it was confirmed by someone else on here. (My friend i named earlier...and don't go attacking him in your rants) I do remember her argument with a single poster but I do remember what she said about the board overall.  You "seem" to be misremembering.

        And you've responded to me more than barely on here and CBR...and always with the same vitriol...no one needs you to cut them a break.  You're worked up in your feelings rants over someone you consider beneath you (yet you still get upset with yourself and respond) is just as amusing.  Of course whatever's not directly involving you and what you deem important and doesn't fit your beautiful male pride would be deemed as "silly"

        I use perfect English.  And just because one can be "progressive" doesn't mean one can't be "street" when he needs to be. Nothing "unhinged" about calling someone out that's intentionally trying to bully (emphasis on trying) someone whenever he posts.  No one said they were going to kill you.  But when one uses over the top insults and words like you even the most progressive men will call someone out.  Just because I'm "progressive" doesn't mean I can't and wouldn't slap you silly.  Cause people are multi functional

        And uh...you know you didn't invent the word "projecting" right?  And emperor doesn't need some obsessive dude who rides me like you speaking up for or protecting him.  Funny thing is he and I were having an A and B convo...no one else chose to heavily stick themselves in BUT you.  Because of me of course.

        Everything else is you as usual getting you tights in a wad over me and so busily in a rage you're of course not correctly comprehending most of what's been written and deep in your bias.  The ONLY person showing thin skin is you.  I'm just saying, since you've been on this tip for years you might as well settle it in person.  But het, keyboard warriors will keep rolling.

         Move along since you can only be "hood" from a keyboard...and before you get yourself banned Booshy.

        Cause lord knows you wouldn't have anyone to talk to then.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 11, 2016, 04:38:40 pm
        More Evidence Perhaps, That This Is Not Wakanda...

        (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/Black-Panther-black-and-white-96107.jpg)

        Some of the guards have on the same attire as Tetu and those gathered at the Nigandan Boarder. Add to that the fact that the Black Panther is stealthily stalking and fighting his way in to... whatever that place is.

        Check out how the shadow behind the guard morphs into the Black Panther. Cool. I absolutely love the art the colors, lettering and design of Coates'well written Black Panther.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 11, 2016, 05:08:37 pm
        Now see mr moderator, my resident stalker isn't playing nice.

        Sigh...

        "Implication" is a loaded word and I didn't imply anything.  Nowhere did I say everyone on here was anti anything but of course in your delusional obsession with me you need to make it look like that.

        I remember what Maxine Shaw said and it was confirmed by someone else on here.  I do remember her argument with a single poster but I do remember what she said about the board overall.  Stop misremembering.

        And you've responded to me more than barely on here and CBR...and always with the same vitriol...no one needs you to cut them a break.  You're worked up in your feelings rants over someone you consider beneath you (yet you still get upset with yourself and respond) is just as amusing.

        I use perfect English.  And just because one can be "progressive" doesn't mean one can't be "street" when he needs to be.  And when one uses over the top insults and words like you even the most progressive men will call someone out.  Just because I'm "progressive" doesn't mean I can't and wouldn't slap you silly.  Cause people are multi functional.

        And uh...you know you didn't invent the word "projecting" right?  And emperor doesn't need some obsessive dude who rides me like you speaking up for or protecting him.

        Everything else is you as usual getting you tights in a wad over me.  Move along since you can only be "hood" from a keyboard...and before you get yourself banned.

        Cause lord knows you'd be lonely then.

        Oh, stop with the passive-aggressive but nonetheless still fallacious (not to mention desperate) "Appeal to Authority", because you can't handle yourself and your transparent nonsense pointed out. Get your weight up and stop trying to cry to the mods to rescue you "Mr. E-Thuggin' Forums Warrior", who "can and would slap me silly." You only get the type of response that your nonsense deserves, which is filled with what you call vitriol.

        Maxine's reasoning for her quitting was based off of her confrontation with the single person. She, unfortunately, tried to apply that logic and reasoning to the board in aggregate. Which was based off of her conversation with that single person, and wasn't really demonstrated by the other posters here. Since they weren't really commenting in a similar manner, or even talking about the contentious issue that she was discussing in thread where she left. Try posting with some integrity. Which you didn't show AT ALL when you tried to latch what Maxine said, about "Da Boyz Club up in hurr! U no like wimmenz!" to the mindset of people in this thread, because they want the titular character to be in the focus more.

        And I never said that you invented the word projecting. Stupidly strawman a bit harder, why don't you?

        But I'm done with this conversation between us, though. You're a joke, and I've more than made my point as to why you shouldn't be taken remotely serious. And because I know you have a penchant for making yourself out to be important and have no actual sense of scale/depth, "taking you serious" shouldn't be confused with me merely "replying to you period.

        But as I'm said, you're a joke, whose gotten stale. So I'm ending this back and forth between us. But don't worry. Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you. I'm not going to stand by and watch as you slander the ideology of people here, just because they're not self-sacrificing for causes that barely support THEM in return.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 11, 2016, 05:15:11 pm
        More Evidence Perhaps, That This Is Not Wakanda...

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/Black-Panther-black-and-white-96107.jpg[/url])

        Some of the guards have on the same attire as Tetu and those gathered at the Nigandan Boarder. Add to that the fact that the Black Panther is stealthily stalking and fighting his way in to... whatever that place is.

        Check out how the shadow behind the guard morphs into the Black Panther. Cool. I absolutely love the art the colors, lettering and design of Coates'well written Black Panther.



        More Shadow Physics stuff is LONG overdue. In this application, if it actually plays out in this deliberate manner, then it's even got potential to be applied in a more literal sense. Which is great. Which means that it really does equally cover both mystical and technological realms.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 11, 2016, 05:38:47 pm
        More Evidence Perhaps, That This Is Not Wakanda...

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/Black-Panther-black-and-white-96107.jpg[/url])

        Some of the guards have on the same attire as Tetu and those gathered at the Nigandan Boarder. Add to that the fact that the Black Panther is stealthily stalking and fighting his way in to... whatever that place is.

        Check out how the shadow behind the guard morphs into the Black Panther. Cool. I absolutely love the art the colors, lettering and design of Coates'well written Black Panther.



        More Shadow Physics stuff is LONG overdue. In this application, if it actually plays out in this deliberate manner, then it's even got potential to be applied in a more literal sense. Which is great. Which means that it really does equally cover both mystical and technological realms.


        Exactly, I always liked this scene and thought it was really well made, I almost must day it would be better left in black and white as it feels like it fits the tone much better and makes it seem more badass. I hope it's a mix of Shadow Physics but also just T'Challa being stealthy and capitalizing on how wekkbhe is at it
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 11, 2016, 05:43:21 pm
        Now see mr moderator, my resident stalker isn't playing nice.

        Sigh...

        "Implication" is a loaded word and I didn't imply anything.  Nowhere did I say everyone on here was anti anything but of course in your delusional obsession with me you need to make it look like that.

        I remember what Maxine Shaw said and it was confirmed by someone else on here.  I do remember her argument with a single poster but I do remember what she said about the board overall.  Stop misremembering.

        And you've responded to me more than barely on here and CBR...and always with the same vitriol...no one needs you to cut them a break.  You're worked up in your feelings rants over someone you consider beneath you (yet you still get upset with yourself and respond) is just as amusing.

        I use perfect English.  And just because one can be "progressive" doesn't mean one can't be "street" when he needs to be.  And when one uses over the top insults and words like you even the most progressive men will call someone out.  Just because I'm "progressive" doesn't mean I can't and wouldn't slap you silly.  Cause people are multi functional.

        And uh...you know you didn't invent the word "projecting" right?  And emperor doesn't need some obsessive dude who rides me like you speaking up for or protecting him.

        Everything else is you as usual getting you tights in a wad over me.  Move along since you can only be "hood" from a keyboard...and before you get yourself banned.

        Cause lord knows you'd be lonely then.

        Oh, stop with the passive-aggressive but nonetheless still fallacious (not to mention desperate) "Appeal to Authority", because you can't handle yourself and your transparent nonsense pointed out. Get your weight up and stop trying to cry to the mods to rescue you "Mr. E-Thuggin' Forums Warrior", who "can and would slap me silly." You only get the type of response that your nonsense deserves, which is filled with what you call vitriol.

        Maxine's reasoning for her quitting was based off of her confrontation with the single person. She, unfortunately, tried to apply that logic and reasoning to the board in aggregate. Which was based off of her conversation with that single person, and wasn't really demonstrated by the other posters here. Since they weren't really commenting in a similar manner, or even talking about the contentious issue that she was discussing in thread where she left. Try posting with some integrity. Which you didn't show AT ALL when you tried to latch what Maxine said, about "Da Boyz Club up in hurr! U no like wimmenz!" to the mindset of people in this thread, because they want the titular character to be in the focus more.

        And I never said that you invented the word projecting. Stupidly strawman a bit harder, why don't you?

        But I'm done with this conversation between us, though. You're a joke, and I've more than made my point as to why you shouldn't be taken remotely serious. And because I know you have a penchant for making yourself out to be important and have no actual sense of scale/depth, "taking you serious" shouldn't be confused with me merely "replying to you period.

        But as I'm said, you're a joke, whose gotten stale. So I'm ending this back and forth between us. But don't worry. Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you. I'm not going to stand by and watch as you slander the ideology of people here, just because they're not self-sacrificing for causes that barely support THEM in return.

        No appeal to authority...I'm trying to respect the moderator. Which is why I'm not coming at you with half of the vitriol you're displaying.  And really...am I supposed to react with your obvious attempt to put me on the defensive with your "passive aggressive appeals" assumpton that you're basically saying to impress your friends on here?  Really dude, come out the schoolyard.

        Booshy, you couldn't put me back in line if you tried...your high maintenance reactionary and in your feelings rants miss the point and comprehension of what you're reacting to half the time.  All you ever show is that you're a biased idiot with a personal beef and one that's becoming disturbing.

        So keep at it...showing off for friends on a message board is obviously the most you're able to do.

        Everything else isn't worth reading because your bias, personal issues, and vitriol makes your information and posts more than questionable inin regards to honesty as well as logical thinking

        .
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 11, 2016, 07:11:17 pm
        I agree, as usual Ture, it would appear BP has invaded Niganda.  We seldom disagree, but I do have a different take on one important point...

        "I want to give Coates the benefit of the doubt that there is some diabolical under current going on because how else does one explain Queen Mother Ramaonda's sentencing when it all on video. Not to mention Aneka humbled in a slave collar.

        Secondly this first issue did not serve to highlight T'Challa the Black Panther. The opening page has him taking a knee while suffering from a head wound. He is castigated by his ancestors, enemy and his adored ones. We witness T'Challa casually saying "I will kill her for this." mirroring his mother's premature and fallacious judgement. Aneka and Ayo have the only standout moments and they're brand new to the mythos of Black Panther."


        If Wakanda is to be a beacon of light it cannot be just technologically advanced, it needs to be culturally and intellectually advanced as well.  Ramonda's judgement was justified.  No matter how egregious the offense, and the chieftain's actions were despicable, as a Dora, Aneka could easily have subdued him and had him answer to the court for his crimes.  Allowing the Doras to act as judge, jury and executioner would set a dangerous and primitive precedent.  I do think a terminal sentence is exceedingly harsh, but that is according to my sensibilities.  I thought Ramonda was very well rendered.  You do remind me however of one problem I had with T'Challa's portrayal, which was the declaration to kill the mind controlling adversary.  Bad choice after similar declarations he's made.  T'Challa came off as impetuous.  He is no longer the boy King. He needs to be more calculating more unflappable now, not a child to be corrected by his mother.

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 11, 2016, 08:10:02 pm
        I agree, as usual Ture, it would appear BP has invaded Niganda.  We seldom disagree, but I do have a different take on one important point...

        "I want to give Coates the benefit of the doubt that there is some diabolical under current going on because how else does one explain Queen Mother Ramaonda's sentencing when it all on video. Not to mention Aneka humbled in a slave collar.

        Secondly this first issue did not serve to highlight T'Challa the Black Panther. The opening page has him taking a knee while suffering from a head wound. He is castigated by his ancestors, enemy and his adored ones. We witness T'Challa casually saying "I will kill her for this." mirroring his mother's premature and fallacious judgement. Aneka and Ayo have the only standout moments and they're brand new to the mythos of Black Panther."


        If Wakanda is to be a beacon of light it cannot be just technologically advanced, it needs to be culturally and intellectually advanced as well.  Ramonda's judgement was justified.  No matter how egregious the offense, and the chieftain's actions were despicable, as a Dora, Aneka could easily have subdued him and had him answer to the court for his crimes.  Allowing the Doras to act as judge, jury and executioner would set a dangerous and primitive precedent.  I do think a terminal sentence is exceedingly harsh, but that is according to my sensibilities.  I thought Ramonda was very well rendered.  You do remind me however of one problem I had with T'Challa's portrayal, which was the declaration to kill the mind controlling adversary.  Bad choice after similar declarations he's made.  T'Challa came off as impetuous.  He is no longer the boy King. He needs to be more calculating more unflappable now, not a child to be corrected by his mother.

        Peace,

        Mont

        True Mont it's all about sensibilities. If I may quote myself...

        Quote
        Wakanda should most certainly be immune to the more base human corruptibles. No hunger, no unemployment, no police brutality, no poverty, no cost housing, no utilities payments, no pollution just to name a few. Wakanda should illuminate the world or at least Afraka with its free education through post doctorate and beyond, , free medical for all for life, environmentally conscious technologies, gender equality and ethnic unicity.

        Wakandans should be more advanced in spirituality than they are technologically. Killing the unrighteous is what Aneka did the same as T'Challa should have done. The Black Panther is a judge in Wakanda yet the perpetrators of horrendous acts get away with murder and all they receive is a stiff talking to and a stern warning.

        Does not Queen Ramonda's terminal sentencing  set a dangerous and primitive precedent.

        Queen Ramonda herself was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and abused by Anton Petorius, who got away with it. Namor, Doom, Red Skull and Thanos all got away with their crimes against the state. Aneka's retribution was justified. Not to mention as she stated the chieftain outrages were well known. Why didn't someone check him.


        If the Damisa-Sarki does not deliver vengeance,justice and righteous retribution...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: stanleyballard on April 11, 2016, 08:28:25 pm
        Loved this premiere issue....potential is in every sub plot, page and nuance.  Comic shop in NYC reported this was the best selling issue of Black Panther ever and the writer is revered in the industry.  Hope it gets better and better with each issue.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Tanksleyd on April 12, 2016, 03:03:57 am
        The conflicted past of comics' Black Panther

        by Patrick Hamilton and Allan Austin

        Patrick Hamilton is an associate professor of English at Misericordia University. Allan Austin is a professor of history and government at Misericordia.

        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

        Comics' first black superhero - Marvel's Black Panther - is undergoing a bit of a renaissance this spring. The character, played by Chadwick Boseman, will soon join the Marvel Cinematic Universe, debuting in May's Captain America: Civil War before headlining his own film, scheduled for release in 2018.

        In addition, Ta-Nehisi Coates, the National Book Award winner and MacArthur "genius grant" recipient, will write a new Black Panther series with artist Brian Stelfreeze. The Atlantic, currently online and in its April issue, features an exclusive preview and interview with Coates regarding the series.

        This sudden ascendancy aside, Black Panther's history has more often been suggestive of the limits impinging black identity in the United States. He and Wakanda, the fictional African nation he rules, first appeared in "Fantastic Four" No. 52 (July 1966) but evoked the stereotype of the "noble savage," juxtaposing wondrous technology and primitive stereotypes. In "Avengers" No. 52 (May 1968), Black Panther joined Marvel's Avengers but kept his identity as a black man hidden from the general public of the Marvel Universe until issue No. 73.

        But perhaps most evocative of these limits was a guest appearance in "Fantastic Four" No. 119 (February 1972), where he leaps into battle suddenly calling himself "The Black Leopard!" As he explains, he's eschewed his former title due to the "political connotations" that the name Black Panther now carries in the United States. Though he claims to "neither condemn nor condone" the actions of the Black Panther organization, his writers felt behooved to tread carefully and draw a clear line between their hero and the nationalist group, as well as the black identity they asserted.

        The Black Panther's and his creators' decisions to play it safe politically resulted quite naturally from the corporate history of Marvel. The company had struggled to find its footing in an industry long dominated by DC Comics, which, after World War II, insulated its heroes from Red Scare crusaders by focusing on fantastical stories that avoided controversial topics like race.

        Marvel challenged DC's conservative approach in the early 1960s, grounding its revived superhero tales more concretely in pressing social issues like the continuing power of American racism. While Marvel's efforts were far from perfect - it looked at race intermittently and relied on stereotypes too often - writers like Stan Lee and artists, including Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, presented stories that at least occasionally promoted a liberal, multicultural agenda.

        But Marvel's engagement with social justice had limits. Lee addressed contentious subjects in noncontroversial ways, always making sure that his fare did not offend with too radical a message and thus could sell without controversy. His strategy mirrored broader social trends that encouraged "safe" conversations about race that would not offend mainstream Americans.

        Flash forward almost half a century, and we see that these same issues still inhibit black expression. The Black Lives Matter movement, for example, began on a straightforward enough note: American society must acknowledge and address continuing violence against African Americans. A backlash was immediate, with the competing All Lives Matter movement arising to limit the conversation. Its suggestion that all lives are the same in 21st-century America ignores disparate experiences created by race.

        Similarly, note the hubbub caused by Beyoncé's nod to the Black Panthers during her Super Bowl halftime show. One imagines that a tribute to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. - a comfortable subject for the mainstream - would not have generated the same kind of backlash. Again, we seem willing to address race, but only on terms that are "safe" and thus don't challenge those who are in power to really listen to the grievances of those who are not.

        These examples suggest the continued need for an honest and open national conversation about race. In the late 1990s, writer Christopher Priest and artist Mark Texeira presented a more political Black Panther series that grounded the hero in a racialized society, and the inclusion of Everett K. Ross, the series' point-of-view character, in Civil War suggests the film character's potential basis in this version. One supposes that Coates' Panther will hew more closely to this approach than to the Marvel line of "safe" liberalism in the 1960s.

        In any case, the Black Panther's vexed history mirrors the American struggle with race since the advent of the civil rights movement, and suggests our need for more honest and searching conversations about just what has changed since the movement - and what hasn't.


        The authors, who are writing a book on race and superheroes since World War II, can be reached at phamilto@misericordia.edu and aaustin@misericordia.edu.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 04:55:03 am
        Now see mr moderator, my resident stalker isn't playing nice.

        Sigh...

        "Implication" is a loaded word and I didn't imply anything.  Nowhere did I say everyone on here was anti anything but of course in your delusional obsession with me you need to make it look like that.

        I remember what Maxine Shaw said and it was confirmed by someone else on here.  I do remember her argument with a single poster but I do remember what she said about the board overall.  Stop misremembering.

        And you've responded to me more than barely on here and CBR...and always with the same vitriol...no one needs you to cut them a break.  You're worked up in your feelings rants over someone you consider beneath you (yet you still get upset with yourself and respond) is just as amusing.

        I use perfect English.  And just because one can be "progressive" doesn't mean one can't be "street" when he needs to be.  And when one uses over the top insults and words like you even the most progressive men will call someone out.  Just because I'm "progressive" doesn't mean I can't and wouldn't slap you silly.  Cause people are multi functional.

        And uh...you know you didn't invent the word "projecting" right?  And emperor doesn't need some obsessive dude who rides me like you speaking up for or protecting him.

        Everything else is you as usual getting you tights in a wad over me.  Move along since you can only be "hood" from a keyboard...and before you get yourself banned.

        Cause lord knows you'd be lonely then.

        Oh, stop with the passive-aggressive but nonetheless still fallacious (not to mention desperate) "Appeal to Authority", because you can't handle yourself and your transparent nonsense pointed out. Get your weight up and stop trying to cry to the mods to rescue you "Mr. E-Thuggin' Forums Warrior", who "can and would slap me silly." You only get the type of response that your nonsense deserves, which is filled with what you call vitriol.

        Maxine's reasoning for her quitting was based off of her confrontation with the single person. She, unfortunately, tried to apply that logic and reasoning to the board in aggregate. Which was based off of her conversation with that single person, and wasn't really demonstrated by the other posters here. Since they weren't really commenting in a similar manner, or even talking about the contentious issue that she was discussing in thread where she left. Try posting with some integrity. Which you didn't show AT ALL when you tried to latch what Maxine said, about "Da Boyz Club up in hurr! U no like wimmenz!" to the mindset of people in this thread, because they want the titular character to be in the focus more.

        And I never said that you invented the word projecting. Stupidly strawman a bit harder, why don't you?

        But I'm done with this conversation between us, though. You're a joke, and I've more than made my point as to why you shouldn't be taken remotely serious. And because I know you have a penchant for making yourself out to be important and have no actual sense of scale/depth, "taking you serious" shouldn't be confused with me merely "replying to you period.

        But as I'm said, you're a joke, whose gotten stale. So I'm ending this back and forth between us. But don't worry. Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you. I'm not going to stand by and watch as you slander the ideology of people here, just because they're not self-sacrificing for causes that barely support THEM in return.



        Booshman, let me be VERY clear about one thing In regards to you and others on here that I didn't have time to post back to yesterday regarding you in particular and your erroneous points...and my arguments...and address WHY you've been called out before and on this obsessive beef you've had for years...unfortunately this will be a bit long because there's so MANY things consistently wrong and underhanded to point about in regards to your many misleading and self congratulating posts:

        You haven't been annoying in the past or now because you actually "make a point" (you rarely do) or know what you're talking about or have any insight on anything nor have you been called out because of that.  You actually keep proving yourself limited in comprehending what's been written and what's happening in the world around you...you ARE annoying because in your biased, personal, and rhetorical rants you rarely if ever ARGUE what was actually said, intentionally misrepresent what you say you've read, are disingenuous on what's being argued, and exaggerate or intentionally misinterpret points made by those who get you riled up (especially me) so that you can pretend your "calling them out" on superfluous arguments that were never made. 

        And then have the audacity to congratulate yourself on your BS and displays of nonsensical, rhetorical points that have nothing to do with what's actually been said.

        That's what makes you annoying along with your personal beef from a keyboard that of course makes you emotionally biased in your posts and your actual intentions questionable while points are being made by you about things that were never said.  Not that you're actually making a point, refuting anything, nor effectively calling someone out on anything. 

        No one needs to "handle themselves" with you...it just gets pointless and tiring because it becomes increasingly apparent that you're more into attacking someone because of your personal beef and
        showing off to your 5 or so friends on a message board. And it seems to be all you have.

        Example: please point out to me and others where I said EXACTLY that everyone on here is anti-LGBT or woman.  Not that I "implied" it but where I said it.  Because MOST of your rants are all about you calling out "implications" and what you "think" someone is saying...just like you "seem" to remember why Maxine Shaw left and what she said, but hardly ever are you calling out what was actually said or remembering what was posted.

        I called out two posts on here, one saying that he hopes the two gay Dora die early on so he doesn't have to see them, another who said this doesn't belong in a black panther comic...to any honest and comprehensive reader this is NOT saying that they are concerned that the titular character is not in the forefront, but that they are uncomfortable with seeing this in this book...PERIOD.  Emperor to his credit DID say the latter point along with his statement, but the statement still stands that he said, for quoted, that it does not belong here.  That's two different things. 

        Nowhere in that did I directly say or even suggest that everyone on here is anti-LGBT or woman. I did suggest that many in the black community and mostly straight black men have not been as supportive at times of women's issues and LGBT issues and this isn't just me saying that but if you look at sites and read information or TALK to people outside of your norm, you'd see many black women and LGBT people saying it themselves.

        The point about black women and LGBT characters still stands since you nor anyone in all honesty can say black LGBT or women are as visible in comics and now in movies and TV as black male characters in a patriarchal business.  And no this isn't and never was said to be the fault of black men.

        The Maxine Shaw argument you are very obviously interpreting it, as you do with most things, yet again, the way you choose to see it and are comfortable with.  NOT what she actually said, and she did say it was a "sausage club" in here and mentioned misogyny. Since your point of view can't entirely be taken seriously due to your biased viewpoints and personal, non-objective beef, along with you trying to save face in front of your friends...I'll trust my own memory and that of my friend on here who remembers it correctly and without personal bias.  And no, this isn't to say she said or thought the board was "anti-woman or LGBT" and I never said that, but she said what she said and it does go into the place being a boys club.

        Also:  please stop thinking so highly of yourself in that just because YOU say something or someone is a "joke" that makes it true. Anything that you find offensive or is critical of that pride you hold onto so dearly is a "joke"... It's an opinion and one that stands on shaky ground due to your obvious bias and the fact that you have yet to actually refute anything that was actually said by me.  Everything you've mostly posted on this has been conjecture and what you "think" or wish to read into what is being said...nothing factual or technical or directly addressing the point but a misrepresented one exaggerated by you.

        And the "coon-speak" that you do to try and make light of someone's point that is entirely your misrepresented and exaggerated version of what's being actually being said is more of an embarrassment to you and black people in general than it is to me.  But continue. 

        Also, YOU pointed out me using the word "projecting" after you used it...so it's hardly a strawman argument but more a sarcastic quip pointing out the ridiculousness that you would even bring that up.  Again, reading comprehension.

        And lastly, dude, you'd know nothing about what feminist and LGBT causes include in their fights nor what they stand for since I'm betting you've never actually immersed yourself in them.  These causes involve black women and LGBT black people who have been fighting against racism and for black men for a long time, which is why I listed For Harriet as an example to Emperor. You wouldn't know that of course because like most limited, frail masculinity ego dudes of your ilk, your pride keeps you in one socio-political circle.  So please, don't speak ignorantly about what you don't know.

        So of course, the convo between us is over because it never really started and was never a convo, just more of you showing off and being a diva refuting points that were never made and making counterpoints to things you've exaggerated due to your own obsessive bias and personal beef. Emperor and I had a convo despite it getting heated...this with you, as usual, was more about your narcissistic need to look like a "community hero" in front of your friends (just like on CBR) fighting against critical viewpoints and you refuting things that aren't even there.

        And on HERE this BS might work.  In the real world, in a world of people like Coates and Lamont Hills, you'd just be a overly reactionary and bitter rhetorical stereotype who rarely makes cohesive points while arguing with things that aren't even there with yet again, a personal beef.  An obsessive bias and need to make yourself look important in front of a few peeps on a board.  Just like over at CBR.

        So please, come for me the next time or whenever I "step out of line", because you have yet to put me back in it especially when you never actually argue anything factual or what was actually said by me, only what you choose to read into, intentionally misrepresent, and exaggerate for your own narcissistic need to pat yourself on the back and possibly look cool in front of 5 dudes on a message board.  Cause whenever I choose, I'll be here and you can pleasure yourself yet again on this pathetic self flagellating obsession of yours.

        Forget meeting up, because more than ever before on this thread, you've shown yourself to be a sad and limited little man needing to show off to the small base that is here.  Hopefully some people on here find it entertaining.

        To all else, thanks for any and all attention and to Emperor, despite that I heavily disagree with much of what you said and much I think was misinterpreted and despite where it got a little ugly...I enjoyed for the most part the exchange and glad if you actually did get anything out of it.












        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 05:04:46 am
        I agree, as usual Ture, it would appear BP has invaded Niganda.  We seldom disagree, but I do have a different take on one important point...

        "I want to give Coates the benefit of the doubt that there is some diabolical under current going on because how else does one explain Queen Mother Ramaonda's sentencing when it all on video. Not to mention Aneka humbled in a slave collar.

        Secondly this first issue did not serve to highlight T'Challa the Black Panther. The opening page has him taking a knee while suffering from a head wound. He is castigated by his ancestors, enemy and his adored ones. We witness T'Challa casually saying "I will kill her for this." mirroring his mother's premature and fallacious judgement. Aneka and Ayo have the only standout moments and they're brand new to the mythos of Black Panther."


        If Wakanda is to be a beacon of light it cannot be just technologically advanced, it needs to be culturally and intellectually advanced as well.  Ramonda's judgement was justified.  No matter how egregious the offense, and the chieftain's actions were despicable, as a Dora, Aneka could easily have subdued him and had him answer to the court for his crimes.  Allowing the Doras to act as judge, jury and executioner would set a dangerous and primitive precedent.  I do think a terminal sentence is exceedingly harsh, but that is according to my sensibilities.  I thought Ramonda was very well rendered.  You do remind me however of one problem I had with T'Challa's portrayal, which was the declaration to kill the mind controlling adversary.  Bad choice after similar declarations he's made.  T'Challa came off as impetuous.  He is no longer the boy King. He needs to be more calculating more unflappable now, not a child to be corrected by his mother.

        Peace,

        Mont

        True Mont it's all about sensibilities. If I may quote myself...

        Quote
        Wakanda should most certainly be immune to the more base human corruptibles. No hunger, no unemployment, no police brutality, no poverty, no cost housing, no utilities payments, no pollution just to name a few. Wakanda should illuminate the world or at least Afraka with its free education through post doctorate and beyond, , free medical for all for life, environmentally conscious technologies, gender equality and ethnic unicity.

        Wakandans should be more advanced in spirituality than they are technologically. Killing the unrighteous is what Aneka did the same as T'Challa should have done. The Black Panther is a judge in Wakanda yet the perpetrators of horrendous acts get away with murder and all they receive is a stiff talking to and a stern warning.

        Does not Queen Ramonda's terminal sentencing  set a dangerous and primitive precedent.

        Queen Ramonda herself was kidnapped, raped repeatedly and abused by Anton Petorius, who got away with it. Namor, Doom, Red Skull and Thanos all got away with their crimes against the state. Aneka's retribution was justified. Not to mention as she stated the chieftain outrages were well known. Why didn't someone check him.


        If the Damisa-Sarki does not deliver vengeance,justice and righteous retribution...

        All good points Ture...(yes here I am finally addressing your posts)  the Ramonda scene sentencing the girl to death was disturbing and Tchalla saying he was going to kill the soul stalker girl was over the top harsh for them...I'm not sure what Coates is writing in this regard but if there is no explanation then it's a sad thing to see.  I do hope he isn't using Wakanda to make some overall statement about harsh politics in some parts of Africa when Wakanda isn't and never was like that.  But this remains to be seen.

        Also Tchalla might want to lay off who saying he's gonna kill someone for awhile after he unfortunately and most soundly never killed Namor...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Curtis Metcalf on April 12, 2016, 03:06:15 pm
        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:01:48 pm

        -Massive Snippet of Nothing-

        (No one really wants to scroll through your ranting nonsense.)


        The only person here showing off, for a small fanbase, is you. The rambling and ranting idiot, who has a penchant for writing "Posturing and Long Winded Novels of Nothing." Which is also the proof that you're the main person here who is overly emotional.

        There wasn't much to unpack in that empty block of text that you wasted the site's bandwith in typing out to and hosting, but one thing that stood out to me....and is a testament to just how phony you are...is the fact that you resort to the label of  slang as "Coon Speak". Even give you a backdoor and assume that you were referring to someone else, using that label (even if that's not your belief...although it probably is) perfectly outlines just how arrogant and demented you are. It shows just how easily unhinged you can become and how quickly you will abandon your flimsy facade of being "An Enlightened Negro", when you're confronted. Which is why I called you out as being the complete fraud that you are earlier. Because that inevitable slip up is par for the course, with morons of your ilk.

        You did the same thing not long after that when you used "diva", in relation to me, as a mocking pejorative. Which is pretty sexist. Again, "So much for your flimsy facade."

        You are a hilariously sad little man, and no matter how much you try to mask it with "Thesis Paper Length" posts of teenager level angst, your unfortunate but (unsurprisingly predictable) degenerate nature still shines through.

        The rest of your post was just you throwing canned assumptions and one-liners at a dart board, in the hopes that something would stick. Which they didn't, btw.

        You're pitiful and all you've done is drag this site down.

        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        That's exactly what it was.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Blanks on April 12, 2016, 04:13:24 pm
        Yeah, I did come here to talk about something but after spending the Last twenty minutes reading all this.... I forgot what I came here for. I think it was Black Panther related. Maybe not. I got misconstrued thoughts now; kinda like almost always after reading through a thread like this.

        Don't know if I want to march in a black pride rally or stand on the corner and protest that law that just passed here in NC that pretty much openly discriminates against gays.

        Chinese food. That's solves everything. That's what we all need. I suggest takeout for everyone.

        Supreme, if you reading this, I'm gonna text ya bro!
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:16:28 pm
        Yeah, I did come here to talk about something but after spending the Last twenty minutes reading all this.... I forgot what I came here for. I think it was Black Panther related. Maybe not. I got misconstrued thoughts now; kinda like almost always after reading through a thread like this.

        Don't know if I want to march in a black pride rally or stand on the corner and protest that law that just passed here in NC that pretty much openly discriminates against gays.

        Supreme, if you reading this, I'm gonna text ya bro!

        You can do both! LOL! You could be reading the BP comic while you sit in the car/bus/train/plane, to both events.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Blanks on April 12, 2016, 04:18:31 pm
        I try, I try. Just trying to bring a lil humor in here, lol.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:19:34 pm
        I try, I try. Just trying to bring a lil humor in here, lol.

        As am I.  :D
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Blanks on April 12, 2016, 04:24:58 pm
        On a different note, I picked up Priest's Vol 3 the same day as Issue 1. Did they drop the same day or did I just miss the release of Vol 3? I missed a few Wednesday's so my Box had well over $200 bucks worth of books to pick up....

        Not that I needed the Panther collections... Spent forever searching for those single issues....
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 04:27:31 pm
        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        No disrespect to you moderator, but the author of the line above refuted NOTHING because he didn't fully understand the argument, made assumptions and implications based on his own subjective and personal feelings about someone he doesn't like, and chose to intentionally misalign, misinterpret, and twist most of the points made due to his own unchecked rage and a very deep and personal bias he continues to hold and has held for years now.  MOST of the things he argued or raged against were never even things directly or indirectly said.

        He didn't actually argue or refute the actual points made at all,  nor presented facts or direct answers on what was actually written...but exaggerated versions of the points made that he CHOSE to see so that he could respond in the highly insulting, denigrating, name-calling and disingenuous fashion his posts obviously show.

        In other words, he was just looking for an Internet fight...and to show off.

        But please make no mistake, he refuted nothing that was actually said, just what he chose to read into.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:30:04 pm
        On a different note, I picked up Priest's Vol 3 the same day as Issue 1. Did they drop the same day or did I just miss the release of Vol 3? I missed a few Wednesday's so my Box had well over $200 bucks worth of books to pick up....

        Not that I needed the Panther collections... Spent forever searching for those single issues....

        Yeah, I lost my entire Priest collection in a flood a few years ago. (Glad I kept Kirby and McGregor's runs in the attic.) So I've been recollecting them. I lost Doom War too, but I'm not that sad about that.

        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        No disrespect to you moderator, but the author of the line above refuted NOTHING because he didn't fully understand the argument, made assumptions and implications based on his own subjective and personal feelings about someone he doesn't like, and chose to intentionally misalign, misinterpret, and twist most of the points made due to his own unchecked rage and a very deep and personal bias he continues to hold and has held for years now.  MOST of the things he argued or raged against were never even things directly or indirectly said.

        He didn't actually argue or refute the actual points made at all,  nor presented facts or direct answers on what was actually written...but exaggerated versions of the points made and hat he CHOSE to see so that he could respond in the highly insulting, denigrating, name-calling and disingenuous fashion his posts obviously show.

        In other words, he was just looking for an Internet fight...and to show off.

        But please make no mistake, he refuted thing that was actually said, just what he chose to read into.

        Yes, yes, yes.

        In true conspiracy theorist fashion, "everything that you can't argue is someone misinterpreting and exaggerating everything." You've played that card already. Didn't work, then. Won't work now.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 04:32:32 pm
        I try, I try. Just trying to bring a lil humor in here, lol.

        As am I.  :D

        No you're not...you're continuing to try and be a diva and show off...even after you said our "convo" which was never a convo in the first place but you on an emotional and biased rant arguing points that were never made, was done. 

        But I knew you couldn't resist.  Insecure people looking for validation never can.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:34:44 pm

        No you're not...you're continuing to try and be a diva and show off...even after you said our "convo" which was never a convo in the first place but you on an emotional and biased rant arguing points that were never made, was done. 

        But I knew you couldn't resist.  Insecure people looking for validation never can.

        No. I am. As is evident to my previous response to Blanks.

        But just to show for everyone that you don't actually read anything at all and are a complete moron, I also said that "when you said something stupid again, I'd be back on you". You even quoted that. But yet somehow you missed that.

        Do try to keep up.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 12, 2016, 04:37:45 pm
        You've been condescending and insulting, so I can't always be civil. But at least I didn't curse you. Can you dish it out and not take it?

        Find the quote where I said that black lesbians don't belong in a Black Panther comic. Find the direct quote where I said that. Not your estimation or speculation, but the direct quote.

        When I respond to you, you keep saying I'm 'misaligning' or 'refocusing' or whatever. You are basically casting aspersions on me, saying I'm being underhanded, which you have done throughout these conversations. I explained to you why I liked Batwoman. Her race had nothing to do with it. I have said over and over and over I don't want the Ayo and Aneka relationship given priority over Black Panther. If they were two new heterosexual characters I would not want them given priority either.

        But let me repeat, I don't endorse homosexuality and I do believe that homosexuality is being promoted or celebrated in the media today. Jason Collins didn't get an invite to the State of the Union because of what he did on the basketball court, he got it for coming out, and that's just one example. Heck, President Obama went to Africa and lectured some Africans about LGBT rights, another example. You can call it inclusion, okay, let's call it that. But its concerted and Coates is doing that here. Of course he has the right to do so, it is a part of black life. My concern is that that will be at the forefront, because it will be more acceptable to whites, than other social, political, and economic issues that are more thornier. It's a safe route, a path of least resistance that possibly could sideline Black Panther. As I've said before, I don't know for certain. It is the first issue. But I am allowed the freedom to speculate. Unless I'm not allowed to do that either.

        I said I looked at For Harriet, but I did not look at the site thoroughly, I guess I need to spell it out more directly for you, since you are always looking for something to offend you. You accuse me of being defensive, but for a good deal of these discussions you've been hyperventilating. I should stop responding a while ago, but I did want to understand where you were coming from. I read one article, which I partly agreed with on the site. Now, am I supposed to agree with every article on For Harriet?

        Perhaps what you perceive as misaligning is you just not reading comprehensively what I'm writing. Or its getting twisted up in your own mind and self-righteous desire to cape and smite anyone who disagrees with you or you think disagrees with you.

        Im being civil now and especially after bluezulu's last post.  Can't you be the bigger man and be civil or at least do as the moderator asked?  Or are you looking for a fight with your "can you dish it out and not take it" schoolyard taunt?  Cause I think I've shown I can take it and give out even more from various posts so far.

        And I really don't see how you got me not being "progressive" enough with the whole Batwoman thing cause my post was more about you than me accepting that LGBT is transracial.  Since I'm guessing you can actually read the only other conclusion is that you might be trying to misalign my points...which is a form of redirecting.  I could be wrong though.  And you HAVE been redirecting, which isn't necessarily underhanded but a defense tactic.  Again it's akin to white people bringing up "black on black crime" when we are talking about police brutality on black people.  Bringing up "misandry" when one is talking about "misogyny" like you did is the same thing.

        And again, you're not being entirely truthful...you didn't just say that the Ayo and Aneka relationship should not take priority over Black Panther....you said and I quote "this doesn't belong in a Black Panther comic"..that again was a direct quote.  It's supported by the fact you just said that you don't endorse homosexuality...which is your choice and right.  It's my choice and right to challenge that viewpoint. You're "allowed" to do anything you want. I'm allowed to refute and speak on it.

        And of course homosexuality is being promoted and celebrated in the media...and it is concerted...though there is a segment of media and even cities that still condones it.  But there's nothing wrong with that because promoting something is a way of gaining acceptance.  A concerted effort focuses it and strengthens the cause.  And just like you "cape" for fighting racism and heterosexual black relationships...others "cape" for that AND these other issues as well.  Like Coates probably does.

        So your point?

        Sigh...dude...if you think me laughing at you looking at one article on for Harriet and finding it not thorough is me being"offended" or "hyperventilating". You've really got other issues.  I wasn't even looking for you to find it to be thorough.  I was just providing you a source for a question you asked.  And again, who said you had to look at or even agree with EVERY article on the site?  You're projecting again.

        Yeah, you should stop responding now...you're flailing about, arguing points that were never there, and obviously still looking, in your polite manner, for a fight. 

        Let it go.

        But of course, you most likely won't.

        Show the direct quote where I  wrote what you accuse me of saying. It's easy to just look up what I've written, the passage where I wrote that, and show me and everyone else that I said that about Aneka and Ayo, show the quote and bust me. But you can't because I didn't say it. I didn't really read much else what you said here because you're just talking hot air now. You got caught out there, you thought you saw something perhaps and just went off, making assumptions and accusations against me, not to mention insults, over something I didn't even write. Doesn't sound very inclusive or progressive of you, now does it? Sounds like you were doing some of that reactionary defensive stuff you accused me of. Projecting much?

        And you're recommending that I should stop responding now sounds a lot like you want me to shut up, you want to silence me. Weren't you going on and on about inclusion and other voices being heard? I guess its the voices that you consider valuable or worthy should continue talk.

        But one more thing...I've been trying to figure out the best way to explain what I see as a contradiction in your whole progressive, male feminist pose. The 'b' word, as you would surely agree, has been used to denigrate women. So when a man calls another man the 'b' word he is feminizing him, which is meant to be an insult. So, by what you said to me you were attempting to feminize me, calling me 'b-made', which you elaborated on was being soft, and yet you're so down with the feminist cause. Yet when you get angry you resort to using feminizing as an insult. You don't see the contradiction in that, the hypocrisy in that? And the whole idea of seeing a 'soft' dude as lesser, yet you had an issue with 'aggressive masculinity' like a previous post. I don't know if all the ideas swirling around your head due to your books, lectures, and table talk have congealed into anything consistent in your own mind.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 04:43:35 pm

        -Massive Snippet of Nothing-

        (No one really wants to scroll through your ranting nonsense.)


        The only person here showing off, for a small fanbase, is you. The rambling and ranting idiot, who has a penchant for writing "Posturing and Long Winded Novels of Nothing." Which is also the proof that you're the main person here who is overly emotional.

        There wasn't much to unpack in that empty block of text that you wasted the site's bandwith in typing out to and hosting, but one thing that stood out to me....and is a testament to just how phony you are...is the fact that you resort to the label of  slang as "Coon Speak". Even give you a backdoor and assume that you were referring to someone else, using that label (even if that's not your belief...although it probably is) perfectly outlines just how arrogant and demented you are. It shows just how easily unhinged you can become and how quickly you will abandon your flimsy facade of being "An Enlightened Negro", when you're confronted. Which is why I called you out as being the complete fraud that you are earlier. Because that inevitable slip up is par for the course, with morons of your ilk.

        You did the same thing not long after that when you used "diva", in relation to me, as a mocking pejorative. Which is pretty sexist. Again, "So much for your flimsy facade."

        You are a hilariously sad little man, and no matter how much you try to mask it with "Thesis Paper Length" posts of teenager level angst, your unfortunate but (unsurprisingly predictable) degenerate nature still shines through.

        The rest of your post was just you throwing canned assumptions and one-liners at a dart board, in the hopes that something would stick. Which they didn't, btw.

        You're pitiful and all you've done is drag this site down.

        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        That's exactly what it was.

        Nothing sexist about the word diva (projection tactic on your part yet again) since it can be a man or a woman who is overly dramatic and seeks attention...it's about a personality not gender...see if you read more feminist stuff and actually was educated in theater you'd know that.  Chris Rock even infamously called himself a diva in an interview.  Kanye West (whom you act very much like) has been called one as well.  Learn things about present day reinterpreted words and cultural shifts involving terms

        I maintain, all of your posts before were all assumptions based on hat you think was being "Implied" and what you "seem" to remember and none of it argued or refuted the points that were actually written but what you chose, due to your personal bias and anger clouding your comprehension skills, to see.

        And I already called you a sad little man...can you not even now come up with anything original?

        Who else is still on here seeking fights and arguing points that were never actually said while still seeking to look like a hero days later and still playing tough from a keyboard?

        That would be you.  Delusionally thinking way more highly of yourself than you should.  Per usual.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 12, 2016, 04:47:55 pm
        This thread is beginning to feel like a sinking boat... Time to abandon ship and start a new thread on BP.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 04:48:24 pm

        No you're not...you're continuing to try and be a diva and show off...even after you said our "convo" which was never a convo in the first place but you on an emotional and biased rant arguing points that were never made, was done. 

        But I knew you couldn't resist.  Insecure people looking for validation never can.

        No. I am. As is evident to my previous response to Blanks.

        But just to show for everyone that you don't actually read anything at all and are a complete moron, I also said that "when you said something stupid again, I'd be back on you". You even quoted that. But yet somehow you missed that.

        Do try to keep up.

        Oh I saw that point, but I actually thought you had somewhat of a life and meant another argument and topic at another time.  And dude, with you arguing points that were never actually written, it's questionable if you CAN read...certainly not comprehend.

        Because honestly, with your apparent personal and obsessive bias you're going to claim anything in your limited eyes is "stupid" and waste more of this threads time and bandwidth instead of actually dealing with your beef as offered...all to protect some rep on a message board.

        But please, continue seeking validation and showing your insecurity while making an unhinged fool of yourself.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:54:04 pm


        Nothing sexist about the word diva (projection tactic on your part yet again) since it can be a man or a woman who is overly dramatic and seeks attention...it's about a personality not gender...see if you read more feminist stuff and actually was educated in theater you'd know that. 

        I maintain, all of your posts before were all assumptions based on hat you think was being "Implied" and what you "seem" to remember and none of it argued or refuted the points that were actually written but what you chose, due to your personal bias and anger clouding your comprehension skills, to see.

        And I already called you a sad little man...can you not even now come up with anything original?

        Who else is still on here seeking fights and arguing points that were never actually said while still seeking to look like a hero days later and still playing tough from a keyboard?

        That would be you.  Delusionally thinking way more highly of yourself than you should.  Per usual.

        Since Diva since its inception and to this day is still associated with women, by society....it is. If you knew anything about basic linguistics, you would have known that. And I was clearly mocking you by repeating your insult.  But being a perpetual slowpoke, you missed that in your need to rush to spout out more rambling and posturing nonsense.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 04:57:43 pm
        This thread is beginning to feel like a sinking boat... Time to abandon ship and start a new thread on BP.

        The unfortunate outcome of when useless "New Blacks" (who call everyone outside of their pathetically rigid and narrow ideology a "Hotep"), invade a place that is outside their comfort zone.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 05:04:11 pm


        Nothing sexist about the word diva (projection tactic on your part yet again) since it can be a man or a woman who is overly dramatic and seeks attention...it's about a personality not gender...see if you read more feminist stuff and actually was educated in theater you'd know that. 

        I maintain, all of your posts before were all assumptions based on hat you think was being "Implied" and what you "seem" to remember and none of it argued or refuted the points that were actually written but what you chose, due to your personal bias and anger clouding your comprehension skills, to see.

        And I already called you a sad little man...can you not even now come up with anything original?

        Who else is still on here seeking fights and arguing points that were never actually said while still seeking to look like a hero days later and still playing tough from a keyboard?

        That would be you.  Delusionally thinking way more highly of yourself than you should.  Per usual.

        Since Diva since its inception and to this day is still associated with women, by society....it is. If you knew anything about basic linguistics, you would have known that. And I was clearly mocking you by repeating your insult.  But being a perpetual slowpoke, you missed that in your need to rush to spout out more rambling and posturing nonsense.

        Wow...you are such a liar.  You were not mocking me by repeating  my insult, and you questioned my stance on feminism by saying using the word "diva" was sexist.  See, this is what I mean about you and how you totally are dishonest in your rants and misdirect even your own points intentionally.

        And if you knew anything about progressive language and how it's used to re interpret the original meanings of things...you'd know what I was talking about.

        But probably being some old head stuck in your limited and dated intellectual knowledge...you probably wouldn't know and actually avoid anything new.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 05:08:03 pm
        This thread is beginning to feel like a sinking boat... Time to abandon ship and start a new thread on BP.

        The unfortunate outcome of when useless "New Blacks" (who call everyone outside of their pathetically rigid and narrow ideology a "Hotep"), invade a place that is outside their comfort zone.

        You mean the unfortunate outcome of keyboard warriors who bogart their way into conversations that never addressed them in the first place because of deeply personal and emotional beefs so they can try unsuccessfully to "check" and denigrate someone they simply don't like.

        YOU started this as usual and continued even after the moderator asked you to stop...be honest for once and don't blame anyone but yourself.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 05:09:02 pm
        Wow...you are such a liar.  You were not mocking me by repeating  my insult...you questioned my stance on feminism by saying using the word "diva" was sexist.  See, this is what I mean about you and how you totally are dishonest in your rants and misdirect even your own points intentionally.

        And if you knew anything about progressive language and how it's used to re interpret he original meanings of things...you'd know what I was talking about.

        But probably being some old head stuck in your limited and dated intellectual knowledge...you probably wouldn't know and actually avoid anything new.

        Mocking you via "sad little man" has nothing to do with me pointing out that you're a phony feminist via your misuse of "diva".  How you could mix up the two is a testament to just how unequipped you are to even keep up with the conversation at hand.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 05:13:46 pm
        Wow...you are such a liar.  You were not mocking me by repeating  my insult...you questioned my stance on feminism by saying using the word "diva" was sexist.  See, this is what I mean about you and how you totally are dishonest in your rants and misdirect even your own points intentionally.

        And if you knew anything about progressive language and how it's used to re interpret he original meanings of things...you'd know what I was talking about.

        But probably being some old head stuck in your limited and dated intellectual knowledge...you probably wouldn't know and actually avoid anything new.

        Mocking you via "sad little man" has nothing to do with me pointing out that you're a phony feminist via your misuse of "diva".  How you could mix up the two is a testament to just how unequipped you are to even keep up with the conversation at hand.

        All it shows is that you have no idea how words in the English language can and have been reclaimed and re interpreted by various artists, academics, and intellectuals.  But since you don't get out much save on this board, I wouldn't expect anything else.

        And yet again, you're switching around what was actually said even by yourself to prop up your faulty points when they're called out.  It's not about being ill equipped for anything but either your dishonesty in representing what was written or your lack of comprehension.  The sad little man thing and the diva thing were two separate points I addressed...separately.

        But yes, do let's keep this up on here and ruin further this thread instead of you actually acting like a man and settling this beef in person...or at least on PM.  But of course that way, no one will see you trying to show off and "act" big.

        Because again, you're the one that came looking for this.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 12, 2016, 05:26:15 pm
        Wow...you are such a liar.  You were not mocking me by repeating  my insult...you questioned my stance on feminism by saying using the word "diva" was sexist.  See, this is what I mean about you and how you totally are dishonest in your rants and misdirect even your own points intentionally.

        And if you knew anything about progressive language and how it's used to re interpret he original meanings of things...you'd know what I was talking about.

        But probably being some old head stuck in your limited and dated intellectual knowledge...you probably wouldn't know and actually avoid anything new.

        Mocking you via "sad little man" has nothing to do with me pointing out that you're a phony feminist via your misuse of "diva".  How you could mix up the two is a testament to just how unequipped you are to even keep up with the conversation at hand.

        All it shows is that you have no idea how words in the English language can and have been reclaimed and re interpreted by various artists, academics, and intellectuals.  But since you don't get out much save on this board, I wouldn't expect anything else.

        And yet again, you're switching around what was actually said to try and prop up your faulty points when they're called out.

        But yes, do let's keep this up on here and ruin further this thread instead of you actually acting like a man and settling this beef in person...or at least on PM.

        I "have no idea how words work" but you couldn't even tell the difference between the context behind the usage of "sad little man" and "diva". And then you attempt to mask this hilarious failing of yours, with unnesscary and long winded nonsense.

        Ok.

        Yeah.

        You're officially out of gas now, and are just flailing along at this point.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 05:48:50 pm
        Wow...you are such a liar.  You were not mocking me by repeating  my insult...you questioned my stance on feminism by saying using the word "diva" was sexist.  See, this is what I mean about you and how you totally are dishonest in your rants and misdirect even your own points intentionally.

        And if you knew anything about progressive language and how it's used to re interpret he original meanings of things...you'd know what I was talking about.

        But probably being some old head stuck in your limited and dated intellectual knowledge...you probably wouldn't know and actually avoid anything new.

        Mocking you via "sad little man" has nothing to do with me pointing out that you're a phony feminist via your misuse of "diva".  How you could mix up the two is a testament to just how unequipped you are to even keep up with the conversation at hand.

        All it shows is that you have no idea how words in the English language can and have been reclaimed and re interpreted by various artists, academics, and intellectuals.  But since you don't get out much save on this board, I wouldn't expect anything else.

        And yet again, you're switching around what was actually said to try and prop up your faulty points when they're called out.

        But yes, do let's keep this up on here and ruin further this thread instead of you actually acting like a man and settling this beef in person...or at least on PM.

        I "have no idea how words work" but you couldn't even tell the difference between the context behind the usage of "sad little man" and "diva". And then you attempt to mask this hilarious failing of yours, with unnesscary and long winded nonsense.

        Ok.

        Yeah.

        You're officially out of gas now, and are just flailing along at this point.

        oh god...stop lying and projecting...really.  Like the Maxine Shaw thing you read into what you choose too, NOT what was actually stated.  And i addressed your faulty lie with one line, nothing long winded you disingenuous dumb ass.  Dont blame expanded posts because you have a reading deficiency made obvious by your comprehension skills.

        And your pedestrian understanding of feminism, thinking a word like "diva" is sexist or even denigrating to most progressive women, is pathetic.

        There was no "context" needed to tell the difference by.....both were used in seperate instances by you and I addressed them seperately.  Maybe the instances were two close together for you to comprehend that...And you being a "divo" which IS a male "diva", (same thing, and whoever even said in any case a diva was a degrading term??) because despite gender ANYONE can be overly dramatic and high maintenance, and being a sad little man were two seperate instances.  plus you merely repeated the sad little man comment that was in my very long post earlier...which you pretended not to read.  Wasnt so much "mocking" as it was you have nothing original to say and proving you did, probably eagerly, read my post.

        the truth is youre flailing and always do eventually...but your pride wont admit or let it go...this rage-filled personal beef you have with me, which always ends up with you trying to save face and overtaking a thread with unhinged insults and intentionally misdirected arguments, makes you entirely incapable of actually arguing what was actually posted and only what you in your biased and personal self-righteous anger wants to see and read into, with accusations using loaded words like "implied" and exaggerating one's points instead of directly refuting what was actually posted.

        And here you are continuing on despite even the few internet friends youre showing off for along with two moderators coming on here complaining about it...instead of personally dealing with it.  in person or on PM. All to save face, prop up your fragile ego,  and attempt to not look foolish in front of others while deep into this obsessive personal thing you have for me.

        thats exactly why youre a sad little man.  And a "diva" or "divo" at the same time.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 06:00:47 pm
        On a different note, I picked up Priest's Vol 3 the same day as Issue 1. Did they drop the same day or did I just miss the release of Vol 3? I missed a few Wednesday's so my Box had well over $200 bucks worth of books to pick up....

        Not that I needed the Panther collections... Spent forever searching for those single issues....

        Yeah, I lost my entire Priest collection in a flood a few years ago. (Glad I kept Kirby and McGregor's runs in the attic.) So I've been recollecting them. I lost Doom War too, but I'm not that sad about that.

        Quote
        Next time you step out of line and say something utterly stupid/dishonest, I'll be right back on you.

        May I suggest one slight amendment. Feel free to argue the idea all day long. If anyone sees something that you consider to be stupid/dishonest, explain, argue, demonstrate, illustrate, etc. why that is so in your view. However, let's avoid denigrating the person promulgating said idea.

        It's not a question of playing nice, it's a question of respect. If not for your fellow Heffas-in-conflict, than for the HEF community and your host. We are all guests here.

        No shade on the author of the quote above; I expect he meant it in the spirit of refuting faulty ideas. Just a reminder to all. It's all good; let's keep it that way.

        No disrespect to you moderator, but the author of the line above refuted NOTHING because he didn't fully understand the argument, made assumptions and implications based on his own subjective and personal feelings about someone he doesn't like, and chose to intentionally misalign, misinterpret, and twist most of the points made due to his own unchecked rage and a very deep and personal bias he continues to hold and has held for years now.  MOST of the things he argued or raged against were never even things directly or indirectly said.

        He didn't actually argue or refute the actual points made at all,  nor presented facts or direct answers on what was actually written...but exaggerated versions of the points made and hat he CHOSE to see so that he could respond in the highly insulting, denigrating, name-calling and disingenuous fashion his posts obviously show.

        In other words, he was just looking for an Internet fight...and to show off.

        But please make no mistake, he refuted thing that was actually said, just what he chose to read into.

        Yes, yes, yes.

        In true conspiracy theorist fashion, "everything that you can't argue is someone misinterpreting and exaggerating everything." You've played that card already. Didn't work, then. Won't work now.

        Negro please...you havent been "arguing" youve been ranting and insulting.  Youve made very few arguments and the ones you made had little to nothing to do with what I actually said.

        for example:

        Show me EXACTLY where I said this whole board is anti-LGBT.or woman. Not what you THINK I was implying (because thats what you were arguing, which was a non point because you cant prove an implication and it was never even implied in the first place) but where I actually said it.  Because that was the crux of just one of many of your rants disguised as an argument...and it was never  even true.

        thats one example of you "refuting" points or statements that were never made...I can find others easily. 

        but dont waste your time... because you WERE refuting multiple statements that were never made...the rest was just you being your usual over the top denigrating self.  and no use wasting more of people's time or this threads pages on propping up your ego or trying to save face in front of your friends while wacking off on your years long personal beef with someone you dont even have the balls (or decency) to settle with personally or in PM.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 06:46:16 pm
        You've been condescending and insulting, so I can't always be civil. But at least I didn't curse you. Can you dish it out and not take it?

        Find the quote where I said that black lesbians don't belong in a Black Panther comic. Find the direct quote where I said that. Not your estimation or speculation, but the direct quote.

        When I respond to you, you keep saying I'm 'misaligning' or 'refocusing' or whatever. You are basically casting aspersions on me, saying I'm being underhanded, which you have done throughout these conversations. I explained to you why I liked Batwoman. Her race had nothing to do with it. I have said over and over and over I don't want the Ayo and Aneka relationship given priority over Black Panther. If they were two new heterosexual characters I would not want them given priority either.

        But let me repeat, I don't endorse homosexuality and I do believe that homosexuality is being promoted or celebrated in the media today. Jason Collins didn't get an invite to the State of the Union because of what he did on the basketball court, he got it for coming out, and that's just one example. Heck, President Obama went to Africa and lectured some Africans about LGBT rights, another example. You can call it inclusion, okay, let's call it that. But its concerted and Coates is doing that here. Of course he has the right to do so, it is a part of black life. My concern is that that will be at the forefront, because it will be more acceptable to whites, than other social, political, and economic issues that are more thornier. It's a safe route, a path of least resistance that possibly could sideline Black Panther. As I've said before, I don't know for certain. It is the first issue. But I am allowed the freedom to speculate. Unless I'm not allowed to do that either.

        I said I looked at For Harriet, but I did not look at the site thoroughly, I guess I need to spell it out more directly for you, since you are always looking for something to offend you. You accuse me of being defensive, but for a good deal of these discussions you've been hyperventilating. I should stop responding a while ago, but I did want to understand where you were coming from. I read one article, which I partly agreed with on the site. Now, am I supposed to agree with every article on For Harriet?

        Perhaps what you perceive as misaligning is you just not reading comprehensively what I'm writing. Or its getting twisted up in your own mind and self-righteous desire to cape and smite anyone who disagrees with you or you think disagrees with you.

        Im being civil now and especially after bluezulu's last post.  Can't you be the bigger man and be civil or at least do as the moderator asked?  Or are you looking for a fight with your "can you dish it out and not take it" schoolyard taunt?  Cause I think I've shown I can take it and give out even more from various posts so far.

        And I really don't see how you got me not being "progressive" enough with the whole Batwoman thing cause my post was more about you than me accepting that LGBT is transracial.  Since I'm guessing you can actually read the only other conclusion is that you might be trying to misalign my points...which is a form of redirecting.  I could be wrong though.  And you HAVE been redirecting, which isn't necessarily underhanded but a defense tactic.  Again it's akin to white people bringing up "black on black crime" when we are talking about police brutality on black people.  Bringing up "misandry" when one is talking about "misogyny" like you did is the same thing.

        And again, you're not being entirely truthful...you didn't just say that the Ayo and Aneka relationship should not take priority over Black Panther....you said and I quote "this doesn't belong in a Black Panther comic"..that again was a direct quote.  It's supported by the fact you just said that you don't endorse homosexuality...which is your choice and right.  It's my choice and right to challenge that viewpoint. You're "allowed" to do anything you want. I'm allowed to refute and speak on it.

        And of course homosexuality is being promoted and celebrated in the media...and it is concerted...though there is a segment of media and even cities that still condones it.  But there's nothing wrong with that because promoting something is a way of gaining acceptance.  A concerted effort focuses it and strengthens the cause.  And just like you "cape" for fighting racism and heterosexual black relationships...others "cape" for that AND these other issues as well.  Like Coates probably does.

        So your point?

        Sigh...dude...if you think me laughing at you looking at one article on for Harriet and finding it not thorough is me being"offended" or "hyperventilating". You've really got other issues.  I wasn't even looking for you to find it to be thorough.  I was just providing you a source for a question you asked.  And again, who said you had to look at or even agree with EVERY article on the site?  You're projecting again.

        Yeah, you should stop responding now...you're flailing about, arguing points that were never there, and obviously still looking, in your polite manner, for a fight. 

        Let it go.

        But of course, you most likely won't.

        Show the direct quote where I  wrote what you accuse me of saying. It's easy to just look up what I've written, the passage where I wrote that, and show me and everyone else that I said that about Aneka and Ayo, show the quote and bust me. But you can't because I didn't say it. I didn't really read much else what you said here because you're just talking hot air now. You got caught out there, you thought you saw something perhaps and just went off, making assumptions and accusations against me, not to mention insults, over something I didn't even write. Doesn't sound very inclusive or progressive of you, now does it? Sounds like you were doing some of that reactionary defensive stuff you accused me of. Projecting much?

        And you're recommending that I should stop responding now sounds a lot like you want me to shut up, you want to silence me. Weren't you going on and on about inclusion and other voices being heard? I guess its the voices that you consider valuable or worthy should continue talk.

        But one more thing...I've been trying to figure out the best way to explain what I see as a contradiction in your whole progressive, male feminist pose. The 'b' word, as you would surely agree, has been used to denigrate women. So when a man calls another man the 'b' word he is feminizing him, which is meant to be an insult. So, by what you said to me you were attempting to feminize me, calling me 'b-made', which you elaborated on was being soft, and yet you're so down with the feminist cause. Yet when you get angry you resort to using feminizing as an insult. You don't see the contradiction in that, the hypocrisy in that? And the whole idea of seeing a 'soft' dude as lesser, yet you had an issue with 'aggressive masculinity' like a previous post. I don't know if all the ideas swirling around your head due to your books, lectures, and table talk have congealed into anything consistent in your own mind.

        Emperor, let me be clear with you as well...

        1. are you actually saying that you did not exactly make this statement in regards to the lesbian couple in Coates book? : "this doesnt belong in a Black Panther comic".  Because its exactly what you said. Maybe you meant to write "it doesnt belong as a main topic in this book" or something like that, but im certain I read that. I could go back some pages and hope you didnt alter it, (not saying you would but anything is possible) but it is what you said.  I rarely address what I think is being implied or read into anything...I argue what was actually said and you did actually say that.  But after I post this, I will go back and attempt to find the actual quote.  But it wont be about "busting" you but actually arguing what was said.

        2.  No, no, no...I dont want to silence you emperor.  For the most part I think your posts are often fair and well presented despite some disagreements or what I see as you projecting or redirecting the yopic (misogyny/misandry) but YOU said you shouldve probably stopped answering me awhile back (you DID say that too, and again im addressing what was actually SAID) and I AGREED that maybe you should stop because you seemed in your last few posts to be flailing and at this point looking for a petty argument.  You have every right to your opinion and it should be included...heck Id say that to a KKK member.  All I said is that what you say also has the right to be argued and disagreed with. Whether i or anyone finds it disturbing or not.

        3. I got insulting not over your opinion and points, but your own projections and hyperbolic aspersions...statements like "evil straight black men" and "you'd be surprised since im a straight black man, but" were you projecting thoughts on me or reading falsely into things I never said.  And it was tiring.  Thats not an opinion, thats you using hyperbole to cast projections on me to make it look like I was saying all hetero black males were "evil" or "non-progressive" or whatever other negative term you tried to claim I was implying.  Again, being critical of us and speaking about things we could maybe be more progressive in is a far cry from me ever implying were "evil".

        But let me also add...for you who genuinely bought this up and Booshman who erroneously is using this to create yet another nonsensical point: just because someone may be "progressive" or "enlightened" in their views as both of you seem to say doesn't mean they can't get vitriolic or annoyed and even insulting or prepared to fight if they choose to.  Having progressive views doesn't mean you're the Dalai Lama...just means you have certain social views.  Which brings me to the "b" word as you call it...

        4. Ive explained this in a post to you before.  But I will do it again more thoroughly this time:

        the "b" word presently has various usages and connotations.  and as i said, it means something completely different when applied to women...it means a female dog or an overly problematic woman and THAT is denigrating to women.  Many feminist minded women have RECLAIMED the word to mean "tough woman" and is used in exclamations like "bitches get sh*t done" and so forth.  there is even a feminist magazine called "bitch"now.

        the word means something different when applied to men and women, and even scholarly women AND men use it to refer to someone weak in character or as you say "soft".  And because this is a trait a man or a woman can have but is especially denigrating to the male ego when he's being of weak character, (because most, as youre doing, always associates it with a woman...or being gay) the word is applied.  In this instance it has absolutely nothing to do with women since its never been used to desrcibe them as "weak".  So it's not "feminizing" you its meant to say in the instances I used it that you were being "weak" in character.

        But even though I still think you were casting projections with your exclamations meant to imply that I was saying things that I never said, I"ll be a decent human about it and apologize to you, whther you take it oe not.

        5. Being "aggressive" and being "assertive" is two different things...and I dont think I used that actual term, probably "toxic masculinity" which is a bit different...but maybe im wrong and will go back and see.  In any case again the term "soft"in this instance was to describe one of weaker character, not "soft" as in having empathy or emotional feelings that doesnt make someone lose focus or start defensive rants for no need.  its all in context.  And again had nothing to do with feminizing you.





        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 12, 2016, 06:51:35 pm
        Enough is enough. A. Curry and Bushman take your argument or debate to another thread as suggested or pm one another. No one is interested in the deluge of oratory warfare you guys are engaged in.

        I didn't start this thread for whatever it is you two got going on.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 12, 2016, 06:55:33 pm
        Enough is enough. A. Curry and Bushman take your argument or debate to another thread as suggested or pm one another. No one is interested in the deluge of oratory warfare you guys are engaged in.

        I didn't start this thread for whatever it is you two got going on.


        apologies bro, I suggested that and more already though.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 12, 2016, 07:06:23 pm
        Enough is enough. A. Curry and Bushman take your argument or debate to another thread as suggested or pm one another. No one is interested in the deluge of oratory warfare you guys are engaged in.

        I didn't start this thread for whatever it is you two got going on.


        AMANDALA!

        Peace (Finally),

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 12, 2016, 10:59:37 pm
        A little ginger to clean the pallet...

        GQ Magazine: Black Panther, Marvel's First Black Superhero, Is Now the Star of the Year's Most Important Comic

        Just over six months ago, Marvel Entertainment shocked the comics and literary worlds alike when it announced that author, Atlantic correspondent, and MacArthur Grant recipient Ta-Nehisi Coates would be writing a year-long Black Panther comic book series alongside acclaimed artist Brian Stelfreeze and colorist Laura Martin. It was huge news that instantly put all sorts of pressure on Black Panther to immediately perform—because while Coates has long professed his love for comics, he writes for an audience that doesn't necessarily read them.

        You'd probably be very happy with it, too. Black Panther #1 is a great start to the year-long story that Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin will tell monthly across eleven issues, and one that's every bit as thoughtful and vivid as you'd expect from the talent assembled. And for the Black Panther, Marvel's first black superhero—it's about damn time the publisher through some serious weight into restoring the character to prominence.

        However, despite having such an important, interesting role in the fiction of Marvel's comics, the comics publisher hasn't always made him a prominent part of their comics lineup. To quote Kotaku writer Evan Narcisse's excellent and comprehensive writeup of the character's history and politics, "The Black Panther has gone from being an under-utilized figure in the background of Avengers group shots to arguably being the most fearsome strategist in the Marvel Universe. His elevation to Marvel’s top tier is a fascinating meta-story." So here we are, with what might be the most highly publicized and biggest comic book series launch of the year, and Black Panther is at the center of it all.

        Black Panther #1 is everything wonderful about comics. It uses grand, symbolic figures to tangibly attack and dismantle big, important ideas. It's a comic that starts with chaos—recent events in Marvel's assorted comics have left Wakanda in disarray, and its people are restless. They're questioning their king and the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women.

        It is, cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy set in a nation almost entirely devoid of white faces, a story about a world power humbled and frustrated with their traditions and the establishments built by men who claim thrones. It is about a king who discovers his kingdom has been infected by hate, and no longer seem to want him. But do they need him?

        Black Panther is asking big questions out of the gate, questions that are eerily relevant to an American audience also in the middle of a search for new leadership almost entirely defined by a rejection of the previous one, an election cycle defined by passions running high and hateful rhetoric reaching a fever pitch. And therein lies the story Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin are out to tell: What happens when a nation of people discover that their perception of themselves is no longer true?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 12, 2016, 11:24:11 pm
        Apology accepted Sea King...

        (http://media.fyre.co/qJtONpkqQfiqUJKLWMum_Black_panther.gif)

        (http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,h_1000,w_1500/t_mp_quality/sgkrg4xgocjptxnrpaxt/dawn-of-the-justice-league-shows-us-our-first-look-at-jason-momoa-as-aquaman-jason-momoa-800037.jpg)

        see you in 2018.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Booshman on April 13, 2016, 01:22:30 am
        Enough is enough. A. Curry and Bushman take your argument or debate to another thread as suggested or pm one another. No one is interested in the deluge of oratory warfare you guys are engaged in.

        I didn't start this thread for whatever it is you two got going on.


        To be fair, I ended it a while ago.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Emperorjones on April 13, 2016, 02:17:54 am
        A.Curry,

        I skimmed your recent reply. Until you produce this quote there is nothing else to say. And I also find it disheartening that you would slip in there that I might have altered it. I think you're giving yourself an out here. If it's at the point where you we can't have basic trust and respect for one another's views or opinions, where you think 'winning' is more important than me laying out my viewpoints, speaking my truth, then what's the point? If you distrust me on that level there is no point continuing talking.

        Look, I played a part in how this thread went sideways. Even though I do think the discussion we had did fall within the realm of the new Black Panther series and the issues raised in the first issue and potentially for the series's run,  it is unfortunate that the discussion took on this tone and character. As I said from the very beginning when I tried to explain my position more thoroughly because I was concerned at your being disturbed by the comments regarding the first issue (one of those comments was from me), I didn't want to disturb you. I wanted to explain my position better and as we got into it, to get a better understanding of where you were coming from.

        To some extent I got that, but it devolved quickly and I think in part because you came into this making assumptions and accusations based on a misreading of what I said. However, I do like to debate/argue and I played a role in this as well. It got into a tit-for-tat and now for me there is no real educational value in it for me. As soon as the insults started I should've bounced, but it takes me a while to realize the futility of some endeavors and to take my behind off the debate stage.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 13, 2016, 03:20:01 am
        Enough is enough. A. Curry and Bushman take your argument or debate to another thread as suggested or pm one another. No one is interested in the deluge of oratory warfare you guys are engaged in.

        I didn't start this thread for whatever it is you two got going on.


        To be fair, I ended it a while ago.

        If he means as in just last night, when this was posted...then that's true..
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 13, 2016, 03:40:23 am
        A.Curry,

        I skimmed your recent reply. Until you produce this quote there is nothing else to say. And I also find it disheartening that you would slip in there that I might have altered it. I think you're giving yourself an out here. If it's at the point where you we can't have basic trust and respect for one another's views or opinions, where you think 'winning' is more important than me laying out my viewpoints, speaking my truth, then what's the point? If you distrust me on that level there is no point continuing talking.
        In
        Look, I played a part in how this thread went sideways. Even though I do think the discussion we had did fall within the realm of the new Black Panther series and the issues raised in the first issue and potentially for the series's run,  it is unfortunate that the discussion took on this tone and character. As I said from the very beginning when I tried to explain my position more thoroughly because I was concerned at your being disturbed by the comments regarding the first issue (one of those comments was from me), I didn't want to disturb you. I wanted to explain my position better and as we got into it, to get a better understanding of where you were coming from.

        To some extent I got that, but it devolved quickly and I think in part because you came into this making assumptions and accusations based on a misreading of what I said. However, I do like to debate/argue and I played a role in this as well. It got into a tit-for-tat and now for me there is no real educational value in it for me. As soon as the insults started I should've bounced, but it takes me a while to realize the futility of some endeavors and to take my behind off the debate stage.

        Emperor,

        No worries...I actually still found the exchange good in.most ways and as I've said, though I still found that you were intentionally or unintentionally projecting things I didn't directly say regarding ALL BM among other things into the conversation (and that, among other things is what got things more "passionate" so to speak) you were mostly fair.  In any case in your skimming you must've missed the parts where I mentioned this and apologized to you.  As for the comment I'm sure was made I haven't gone back through all the exchanges yet to find it...and I will for the sake of clarity...but your overall reasons and points for why you were uncomfortable with the Dora couple in only the 1st issue was clear.  And I did still do taken some umbrage in the insistence that you see this as an attempt to mollify liberals by Coates more so than an actual way to include images in a black narrative that we are seeing more of, but are still somewhat marginalized.  By a writer that 90 percent of the time has spoken on race, in a book that has always dealt with racism but is ripe to discuss or show other issues as well.

        But let's also be clear and fair...I've witnessed this board devolve many times and posters become insulting to each other in posts...not all the time but quite a few.  So some acting like it's always seemingly kept "civil" on here  is a fallacy.  And unlike many times when I've seen it happen on here before, you've been handed an apology and some respect by me for some of what you've said.

        You chose to engage...which is fine...in what is despite what you may think a still controversial and touchy subject regarding people that are still in many ways excluded socially in many ways in comparison to others. So some sensitivity and uncivil discussion may happen.  And even in my original post that you replied to...I never mentioned names.

        I will go through our exchanges and find if I can what you said and reply later...as for trust there is a little, but in reality there's no real reason for a huge amount of it on a message board with dudes whose faces I've never even seen.  Nothing personal.

        And NO,  you played no part in how this thread went sideways...that  was all on a personal beef one poster had with another...both of whom were called out for it by the person who created the thread...your name wasn't mentioned.





        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 13, 2016, 04:50:22 am
        Apology accepted Sea King...

        ([url]http://media.fyre.co/qJtONpkqQfiqUJKLWMum_Black_panther.gif[/url])

        ([url]http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_limit,h_1000,w_1500/t_mp_quality/sgkrg4xgocjptxnrpaxt/dawn-of-the-justice-league-shows-us-our-first-look-at-jason-momoa-as-aquaman-jason-momoa-800037.jpg[/url])

        see you in 2018.


        Not if the sea king sees you first...as he speaks in third person...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 13, 2016, 05:40:13 am
        A little ginger to clean the pallet...

        GQ Magazine: Black Panther, Marvel's First Black Superhero, Is Now the Star of the Year's Most Important Comic

        Just over six months ago, Marvel Entertainment shocked the comics and literary worlds alike when it announced that author, Atlantic correspondent, and MacArthur Grant recipient Ta-Nehisi Coates would be writing a year-long Black Panther comic book series alongside acclaimed artist Brian Stelfreeze and colorist Laura Martin. It was huge news that instantly put all sorts of pressure on Black Panther to immediately perform—because while Coates has long professed his love for comics, he writes for an audience that doesn't necessarily read them.

        You'd probably be very happy with it, too. Black Panther #1 is a great start to the year-long story that Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin will tell monthly across eleven issues, and one that's every bit as thoughtful and vivid as you'd expect from the talent assembled. And for the Black Panther, Marvel's first black superhero—it's about damn time the publisher through some serious weight into restoring the character to prominence.

        However, despite having such an important, interesting role in the fiction of Marvel's comics, the comics publisher hasn't always made him a prominent part of their comics lineup. To quote Kotaku writer Evan Narcisse's excellent and comprehensive writeup of the character's history and politics, "The Black Panther has gone from being an under-utilized figure in the background of Avengers group shots to arguably being the most fearsome strategist in the Marvel Universe. His elevation to Marvel’s top tier is a fascinating meta-story." So here we are, with what might be the most highly publicized and biggest comic book series launch of the year, and Black Panther is at the center of it all.

        Black Panther #1 is everything wonderful about comics. It uses grand, symbolic figures to tangibly attack and dismantle big, important ideas. It's a comic that starts with chaos—recent events in Marvel's assorted comics have left Wakanda in disarray, and its people are restless. They're questioning their king and the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women.

        It is, cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy set in a nation almost entirely devoid of white faces, a story about a world power humbled and frustrated with their traditions and the establishments built by men who claim thrones. It is about a king who discovers his kingdom has been infected by hate, and no longer seem to want him. But do they need him?

        Black Panther is asking big questions out of the gate, questions that are eerily relevant to an American audience also in the middle of a search for new leadership almost entirely defined by a rejection of the previous one, an election cycle defined by passions running high and hateful rhetoric reaching a fever pitch. And therein lies the story Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin are out to tell: What happens when a nation of people discover that their perception of themselves is no longer true?


        Interesting article...the line "it is cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy" is telling about some things I actually do see possibly problematic in Coates possible intentions though I'm eager to see how it plays out.  It looks however that he might be forcing political and social issues into Wakanda that were arguably not there to tell a story addressing these things.  For instance, I don't see the guy Aneka killed being able to do what he did for as LONG as it was suggested he did in Wakanda without no one doing anything...and if the Dora are trusts with guarding the king and the nation, why wouldn't they be able to kill someone for such a heinous crime without the overly harsh sentence of execution?  Coates might be trying to speak on even some harsher political and social things in certain parts of Africa, but that's not and never has been Wakanda in that regard.

        Also, "they're questioning the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women" I don't mind this at all, and depending on how he goes about addressing the gender and black female revolutionary action along with black feminist issues...it could be a great read.  However these issues shouldn't be handled or be exactly the same as they are in America and especially in certain parts of Africa...the "Boko Haram" type cells in scans shown most definitely should not be Wakanda as such a thing would never happen there...but perhaps it's a call on how Wakanda and its king should get involved in things that are happening in real world parts of Africa like this.  Maybe that's what Coates is going for and if so that would be a good thing...maybe Aneka and Ayo will serve as the impetus for this involvement as I would hope an advanced place like Wakanda WOULD do something about these things happening not far from its borders.

        As I've said to you before though...I think Coates is going to end monarchy in Wakanda to establish a democracy...just like in America or other more "democratic", so to speak, parts of the world.  The very idea of this run questioning a monarchy and unrest with its "orphan-King" underscores this.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 14, 2016, 08:11:39 am
        http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/ (http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/)

        The above link to this article on black nerd problems site may or may not have been posted on here before, surely read by some, but it's a pretty good article thats not only praising Coates first issue (surprised there isn't some criticism on sites I've seen yet, as it's good but far from perfect) but goes into what he's trying to accomplish and definitely for you Ture (and possibly others) something that has some
        points arguably worthy of criticism.

        It is of course also taking a particular view of the the Dora couple whom has obviously been a source of discussion and debate on here...
        as the following passage from the article shows and makes an arguable point about:

        "Black America, like the rest of America, has always had a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Asexual, and other Queer members. We all know the Gay Choir Director or the unmarried Butch Auntie. We have so often pushed these family members to the edges of Black society, allowing them to be erased by the very communities they call home. So for Coates and the rest of the creative team to make not only the Dora Milaje, but two Black lesbian Dora Milaje, one of the primary actors in his series is, dare I say, revolutionary? Or at least so rarely seen as to be damn near? "

        Good points though "revolutionary" might be too strong of a word...but it's pretty clear as the point has been made already that Coates is attempting to address real world issues through Wakanda...which could possibly be problematic.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 14, 2016, 08:02:48 pm
        Ta-Nehisi Coates ‏@tanehisicoates  Apr 13
        "Then you see panels like this from @colorista and you understand. The energy crackling off Ayo's iwisa sets it off."


        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf888GZW8AAYP3j.jpg)

        If Coats isn't careful Aneka and Ayo are going to steal the show.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 15, 2016, 01:39:19 pm
        More BP Stuff. From Dboi from CBR:

        Quote from: Dboi654;1943307
        Concept art by Ryan Meinerding. Hope we see this in his solo
        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf_a6n9UMAAJjWG.jpg)


        And some pics from Séb:

        Quote from: Séb;1943446
        Black Panther costume on display:

        ([url]http://i67.tinypic.com/wu08eo.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://i68.tinypic.com/2nv9q13.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://i68.tinypic.com/2dr84fk.jpg[/url])

        More here:

        [url]http://hollywoodmoviecostumesandprops.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/chadwick-bosemans-black-panther-costume.html[/url] ([url]http://hollywoodmoviecostumesandprops.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/chadwick-bosemans-black-panther-costume.html[/url])

        [/size][/b]
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 15, 2016, 03:46:00 pm
        Courtesy of Dboi & Realdealholy from CBR:

        Quote from: Dboi654;1943614
        Avengers of the New World hmmmmmm?

        ([url]http://i.imgur.com/XqOUDYe.png[/url])



        Quote from: Realdealholy;1943854


        Coates says that he’s already done the first 12 issues and signed a contract just last week to continue working on the book for years.

        [url]http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/04/love_duty_and_politics_ta_nehisi_coates_takes_on_marvel_s_black_panther.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/04/love_duty_and_politics_ta_nehisi_coates_takes_on_marvel_s_black_panther.html[/url])


        Seems like Coates is in it for the long haul. I hope he mines out some very interesting stories with Big Payouts to T'Challa. I look Forward to what he is going to do and where T'challa will stand. I really hope though that happier days aren't too distant in the future
        [/size][/b]

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 18, 2016, 09:41:58 pm
        Who Gave The Black Panther His Best Debut In An Ongoing?

        (http://www.metronews.ca/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2016/4/7/blackpanther.jpg)

        (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/panthergreatest8.jpg)

        (http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/41174-6496-46481-1-black-panther.jpg)

        (http://static3.aintitcool.com/assets2011/liss7.jpg)

        (http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/insidepulse/uploads/2013/01/new-avengers-1-cover.png)

        (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/panthericonic3.jpg)

        (http://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/bp1.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 19, 2016, 02:27:00 am
        Who Gave The Black Panther His Best Debut In An Ongoing?

        ([url]http://www.metronews.ca/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2016/4/7/blackpanther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/panthergreatest8.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/41174-6496-46481-1-black-panther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static3.aintitcool.com/assets2011/liss7.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/insidepulse/uploads/2013/01/new-avengers-1-cover.png[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/panthericonic3.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/bp1.jpg[/url])


        REGINALD HUDLIN.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 19, 2016, 08:13:33 am
        Who Gave The Black Panther His Best Debut In An Ongoing?

        ([url]http://www.metronews.ca/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2016/4/7/blackpanther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/panthergreatest8.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/41174-6496-46481-1-black-panther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static3.aintitcool.com/assets2011/liss7.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/insidepulse/uploads/2013/01/new-avengers-1-cover.png[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/panthericonic3.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/bp1.jpg[/url])


        I think Priest had the Beat debut honestly. Followed by RH, then Coates.

        What about Best cover between those?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 19, 2016, 10:19:25 am
        Coates is a grade A douchebag for this....

        BLACK PANTHER #4
        TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • BRIAN STELFREEZE (A/C)
        DEATH OF X VARIANT COVER BY TBA
        CONNECTING VARIANT COVER D BY SANFORD GREENE
        • "A NATION UNDER OUR FEET," the first arc of the new hit BLACK PANTHER series, comes to a startling conclusion!
        • Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda, further eroding any last bits of goodwill towards the royal family...
        • T'Challa struggles to unite his citizens, who are choosing to side with Zenzi and The People in growing numbers...
        • A familiar villain reveals his part in T'Challa's current ruination...and it's not who you think!
        32 PGS./Rated T ...$3.99

        (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP2016004-CATALOG-ONLY-509bb.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: bluezulu on April 19, 2016, 02:23:33 pm
        Coates is a grade A douchebag for this....

        BLACK PANTHER #4
        TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • BRIAN STELFREEZE (A/C)
        DEATH OF X VARIANT COVER BY TBA
        CONNECTING VARIANT COVER D BY SANFORD GREENE
        • "A NATION UNDER OUR FEET," the first arc of the new hit BLACK PANTHER series, comes to a startling conclusion!
        • Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda, further eroding any last bits of goodwill towards the royal family...
        • T'Challa struggles to unite his citizens, who are choosing to side with Zenzi and The People in growing numbers...
        • A familiar villain reveals his part in T'Challa's current ruination...and it's not who you think!
        32 PGS./Rated T ...$3.99

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP2016004-CATALOG-ONLY-509bb.jpg[/url])



        Meh. I have to wait and read the issues before and after instead of becoming reactionary. I mean comics are like a swinging pendulum when it comes to story telling. Fast forward in time to the future end of Coates run and when the next writer decides he needs to bring back elements of the Hudlin run or Priest run. The character of the Black Panther has been around for more than 50 years. You would need to develop algorithms to keep up with the continuity and story issues. 
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 19, 2016, 03:48:36 pm
        Coates is a grade A douchebag for this....

        BLACK PANTHER #4
        TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • BRIAN STELFREEZE (A/C)
        DEATH OF X VARIANT COVER BY TBA
        CONNECTING VARIANT COVER D BY SANFORD GREENE
        • "A NATION UNDER OUR FEET," the first arc of the new hit BLACK PANTHER series, comes to a startling conclusion!
        • Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda, further eroding any last bits of goodwill towards the royal family...
        • T'Challa struggles to unite his citizens, who are choosing to side with Zenzi and The People in growing numbers...
        • A familiar villain reveals his part in T'Challa's current ruination...and it's not who you think!
        32 PGS./Rated T ...$3.99

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP2016004-CATALOG-ONLY-509bb.jpg[/url])



        Meh. I have to wait and read the issues before and after instead of becoming reactionary. I mean comics are like a swinging pendulum when it comes to story telling. Fast forward in time to the future end of Coates run and when the next writer decides he needs to bring back elements of the Hudlin run or Priest run. The character of the Black Panther has been around for more than 50 years. You would need to develop algorithms to keep up with the continuity and story issues.


        Post Hudlin, T'Challa has had a virtually uninterupted run of deconstruction wherein practically all of the positives Mr Hudlin brought to the BP mythos have been rolled back and virtually erased.

        Forgive me for being scathingly unreceptive to Coates material as far as the BP mythos are concerned.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 19, 2016, 09:48:42 pm
        A little ginger to clean the pallet...

        GQ Magazine: Black Panther, Marvel's First Black Superhero, Is Now the Star of the Year's Most Important Comic

        Just over six months ago, Marvel Entertainment shocked the comics and literary worlds alike when it announced that author, Atlantic correspondent, and MacArthur Grant recipient Ta-Nehisi Coates would be writing a year-long Black Panther comic book series alongside acclaimed artist Brian Stelfreeze and colorist Laura Martin. It was huge news that instantly put all sorts of pressure on Black Panther to immediately perform—because while Coates has long professed his love for comics, he writes for an audience that doesn't necessarily read them.

        You'd probably be very happy with it, too. Black Panther #1 is a great start to the year-long story that Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin will tell monthly across eleven issues, and one that's every bit as thoughtful and vivid as you'd expect from the talent assembled. And for the Black Panther, Marvel's first black superhero—it's about damn time the publisher through some serious weight into restoring the character to prominence.

        However, despite having such an important, interesting role in the fiction of Marvel's comics, the comics publisher hasn't always made him a prominent part of their comics lineup. To quote Kotaku writer Evan Narcisse's excellent and comprehensive writeup of the character's history and politics, "The Black Panther has gone from being an under-utilized figure in the background of Avengers group shots to arguably being the most fearsome strategist in the Marvel Universe. His elevation to Marvel’s top tier is a fascinating meta-story." So here we are, with what might be the most highly publicized and biggest comic book series launch of the year, and Black Panther is at the center of it all.

        Black Panther #1 is everything wonderful about comics. It uses grand, symbolic figures to tangibly attack and dismantle big, important ideas. It's a comic that starts with chaos—recent events in Marvel's assorted comics have left Wakanda in disarray, and its people are restless. They're questioning their king and the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women.

        It is, cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy set in a nation almost entirely devoid of white faces, a story about a world power humbled and frustrated with their traditions and the establishments built by men who claim thrones. It is about a king who discovers his kingdom has been infected by hate, and no longer seem to want him. But do they need him?

        Black Panther is asking big questions out of the gate, questions that are eerily relevant to an American audience also in the middle of a search for new leadership almost entirely defined by a rejection of the previous one, an election cycle defined by passions running high and hateful rhetoric reaching a fever pitch. And therein lies the story Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin are out to tell: What happens when a nation of people discover that their perception of themselves is no longer true?



        Interesting article...the line "it is cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy" is telling about some things I actually do see possibly problematic in Coates possible intentions though I'm eager to see how it plays out.  It looks however that he might be forcing political and social issues into Wakanda that were arguably not there to tell a story addressing these things.  For instance, I don't see the guy Aneka killed being able to do what he did for as LONG as it was suggested he did in Wakanda without no one doing anything...and if the Dora are trusts with guarding the king and the nation, why wouldn't they be able to kill someone for such a heinous crime without the overly harsh sentence of execution?  Coates might be trying to speak on even some harsher political and social things in certain parts of Africa, but that's not and never has been Wakanda in that regard.

        Also, "they're questioning the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women" I don't mind this at all, and depending on how he goes about addressing the gender and black female revolutionary action along with black feminist issues...it could be a great read.  However these issues shouldn't be handled or be exactly the same as they are in America and especially in certain parts of Africa...the "Boko Haram" type cells in scans shown most definitely should not be Wakanda as such a thing would never happen there...but perhaps it's a call on how Wakanda and its king should get involved in things that are happening in real world parts of Africa like this.  Maybe that's what Coates is going for and if so that would be a good thing...maybe Aneka and Ayo will serve as the impetus for this involvement as I would hope an advanced place like Wakanda WOULD do something about these things happening not far from its borders.

        As I've said to you before though...I think Coates is going to end monarchy in Wakanda to establish a democracy...just like in America or other more "democratic", so to speak, parts of the world.  The very idea of this run questioning a monarchy and unrest with its "orphan-King" underscores this.


        The fodder is there to tell due in fact to the many mischaracterizations of the Black Panther presented post Hudlin. I had a thread a few years back entitled The Many Mistakes of Reginald Hudlin in which I stated all the advances and nuances, all the logical conclusions about the Black Panther and Wakanda plied by Hudlin would be seen as things that needed to be corrected,undone i.e. the unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm, the brother and sister relationship with Shuri, the cultural leanings and expressions historical insertions that dealt well with past events. Hudlin even made being a king a cool thing with perks.

        "Addressing the gender and black female revolutionary action along with black feminist issues..." are concerns Wakanda should not have. Traditional Afrakan societies exhibited gender equality simultaneously with well defined male and female roles and responsibilities.

        This penchant for most writers to have Wakanda in the thralls of revolution at every writing belies any credibility in the writers creativity in visualizing a truly advanced Afrakan nation.

        Instead of using contemporary social challenges in a failed attempt to "humanize" the populace and remove the stigma of 'utopia' that supposedly is Wakanda; why not focus on examples of their exemplary achievements in the arts and sciences, in their social and political workings, their economy, environmental conservation, deep space exploration and spirituality as it addresses how their society coexist and communes with their supreme being, deities and ancestors.
         

        [url]http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/[/url] ([url]http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/[/url])

        The above link to this article on black nerd problems site may or may not have been posted on here before, surely read by some, but it's a pretty good article thats not only praising Coates first issue (surprised there isn't some criticism on sites I've seen yet, as it's good but far from perfect) but goes into what he's trying to accomplish and definitely for you Ture (and possibly others) something that has some
        points arguably worthy of criticism.

        It is of course also taking a particular view of the the Dora couple whom has obviously been a source of discussion and debate on here...
        as the following passage from the article shows and makes an arguable point about:

        "Black America, like the rest of America, has always had a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Asexual, and other Queer members. We all know the Gay Choir Director or the unmarried Butch Auntie. We have so often pushed these family members to the edges of Black society, allowing them to be erased by the very communities they call home. So for Coates and the rest of the creative team to make not only the Dora Milaje, but two Black lesbian Dora Milaje, one of the primary actors in his series is, dare I say, revolutionary? Or at least so rarely seen as to be damn near? "

        Good points though "revolutionary" might be too strong of a word...but it's pretty clear as the point has been made already that Coates is attempting to address real world issues through Wakanda...which could possibly be problematic.



        American Afrakans like many other ethnic groups in the United States of America "has always had a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our" elders, children, fathers, mothers and our historical and cultural identity. The Afrakan family in the USA has been so beleaguered by negative imaging that some mistakenly believe that all too many so called black men want is a white woman, that all too many so called black women want is a white man or to get out of the ghetto, rap or play ball, be Hollywood housewives, drug sellers or play pimps up hoes down.

        So for Coates and the rest of the creative team have yet to show T'Challa in a stable, functional relationship with a woman he would consider marrying and having children with. dare I say, that would be revolutionary? Or at least so rarely seen as to be damn near? "
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 19, 2016, 10:06:12 pm
        Who Gave The Black Panther His Best Debut In An Ongoing?

        ([url]http://www.metronews.ca/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2016/4/7/blackpanther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/panthergreatest8.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/41174-6496-46481-1-black-panther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static3.aintitcool.com/assets2011/liss7.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/insidepulse/uploads/2013/01/new-avengers-1-cover.png[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/panthericonic3.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/bp1.jpg[/url])




        Quote
        I think Priest had the Beat debut honestly. Followed by RH, then Coates.

        What about Best cover between those?    Ezyo


        Quote
        REGINALD HUDLIN.     Salustrade


        Excellent finds Ezyo on the BP picks from that Cap 75 Anniversary mag.

        Hey Kip, which Thanos do you think trashed the Golden City?  ???

        My pick for overall debut would have to go to... Hudlin just for the share magnitude he defined Wakanda as being and for telling his inaugural story in the Black Panther's homeland. Not too mention the outright defeat of Cap. All this really hit home with the animated series.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 19, 2016, 10:19:48 pm
        Coates is a grade A douchebag for this....

        BLACK PANTHER #4
        TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • BRIAN STELFREEZE (A/C)
        DEATH OF X VARIANT COVER BY TBA
        CONNECTING VARIANT COVER D BY SANFORD GREENE
        • "A NATION UNDER OUR FEET," the first arc of the new hit BLACK PANTHER series, comes to a startling conclusion!
        • Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda, further eroding any last bits of goodwill towards the royal family...
        • T'Challa struggles to unite his citizens, who are choosing to side with Zenzi and The People in growing numbers...
        • A familiar villain reveals his part in T'Challa's current ruination...and it's not who you think!
        32 PGS./Rated T ...$3.99

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP2016004-CATALOG-ONLY-509bb.jpg[/url])



        Meh. I have to wait and read the issues before and after instead of becoming reactionary. I mean comics are like a swinging pendulum when it comes to story telling. Fast forward in time to the future end of Coates run and when the next writer decides he needs to bring back elements of the Hudlin run or Priest run. The character of the Black Panther has been around for more than 50 years. You would need to develop algorithms to keep up with the continuity and story issues.


        Post Hudlin, T'Challa has had a virtually uninterupted run of deconstruction wherein practically all of the positives Mr Hudlin brought to the BP mythos have been rolled back and virtually erased.

        Forgive me for being scathingly unreceptive to Coates material as far as the BP mythos are concerned.


        QFT!!! Chaos Bringer, you aint never lied. "Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda" come on, this is total regression. At least with Thanos you have a planet conquering, star destroying, nigh infinite cosmic powered adversary to contend with. And yes, T'Challa should have found a way to defeat him singlehandedly and save Wakanda. Poor writing about who the Black Panther is what is powering much of Coates' iteration. Again only one issue has made print so until the next one true believers...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 19, 2016, 10:37:28 pm
        Quote
        To be perfectly honest, I think the fact that the Dora's were flat out arguing that the chieftans actions were known and ignored is an indication that it's NOT exactly uncommon. It's likely not happening in the middle of the street within the golden city. But I'll wager outside of the golden city, in the more rural areas people can and do get away with a lot more.    CBR's XPac


        Quote
        None of this BS existed within the BP mythos before Coates showed up so please stop acting like any of the garbage he's importing into said mythos, has any binding weight on what's known to long term BP enthusiasts.

        As much as I disliked what Hickman did with T'Challa during his New Avengers run, there's no denying the fact that he left Wakanda in a more hopeful place at the close of Secret Wars II.

        This was firmly mirrored in Ewings work in the first issue of the new Ultimates book that clearly illustrated where Wakanda was within the global pecking order.

        Coates on the otherhand, has decided to regress Wakanda toa point that flies completely in the face of pre-established continuity while injecting his own personal viewpoints into a mythos that he has already clearly stated to hold in contempt.

        Coates doesn't believe in the concept of a Monarchy and naturally decides to run rough shod over what existed within the BP mythos before he came along.

        He holds the tradition of the Dora Milaje in disdain as see's same as being "weird" citing the ages of the Dora's as being "problematic" whilst ignoring facts relating to what obtains as the age of consent across the entirety of much of the world outside of North America.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

        And he does all of this with the presumptious arrogance of an explorer who seems to think that he's more knowledgeable about things than the actual people who are about that life.

        But then again, why would he not feel so entitled to make the pronouncements he's so fond of making in his interviews?

        Afterall, he has been commisioned by the selfsame publishers who had no problem allowing the BP mythos to be dragged through the mud and disregarded until the trend towards the financial viability of actual diversity, forced Marvel into jumping onto the progressive bandwagon.     CBR's Mr Majestic

        Again when it's said right, it's said right.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 20, 2016, 04:44:48 am
        Hey Kip, which Thanos do you think trashed the Golden City?  ???


        According to Starlin, it would be "the other guy," not his.  (It kind of makes sense since Starlin has been writing this story with Thanos, Warlock, Annihlus, that seemingly has nothing to do with Hickman's or Ultimate's storyline.)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 20, 2016, 04:50:23 am
        Coates is a grade A douchebag for this....

        BLACK PANTHER #4
        TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • BRIAN STELFREEZE (A/C)
        DEATH OF X VARIANT COVER BY TBA
        CONNECTING VARIANT COVER D BY SANFORD GREENE
        • "A NATION UNDER OUR FEET," the first arc of the new hit BLACK PANTHER series, comes to a startling conclusion!
        • Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda, further eroding any last bits of goodwill towards the royal family...
        • T'Challa struggles to unite his citizens, who are choosing to side with Zenzi and The People in growing numbers...
        • A familiar villain reveals his part in T'Challa's current ruination...and it's not who you think!
        32 PGS./Rated T ...$3.99

        ([url]http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/BLAP2016004-CATALOG-ONLY-509bb.jpg[/url])



        Meh. I have to wait and read the issues before and after instead of becoming reactionary. I mean comics are like a swinging pendulum when it comes to story telling. Fast forward in time to the future end of Coates run and when the next writer decides he needs to bring back elements of the Hudlin run or Priest run. The character of the Black Panther has been around for more than 50 years. You would need to develop algorithms to keep up with the continuity and story issues.


        Post Hudlin, T'Challa has had a virtually uninterupted run of deconstruction wherein practically all of the positives Mr Hudlin brought to the BP mythos have been rolled back and virtually erased.

        Forgive me for being scathingly unreceptive to Coates material as far as the BP mythos are concerned.


        QFT!!! Chaos Bringer, you aint never lied. "Suicide bombers terrorize the people of Wakanda" come on, this is total regression. At least with Thanos you have a planet conquering, star destroying, nigh infinite cosmic powered adversary to contend with. And yes, T'Challa should have found a way to defeat him singlehandedly and save Wakanda. Poor writing about who the Black Panther is what is powering much of Coates' iteration. Again only one issue has made print so until the next one true believers...


        I am hoping that the "suicide bombers" are going to turn out to be mind-controlled individuals, rather than real suicide bombers.  It still doesn't improve this total deconstruction for Wakanda, but it there is a super-villain behind it is better than alternative. 

        You know, eventually this deconstruction of heroes is going to end. It started in the 80s and has just continued to get worse.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 20, 2016, 06:10:51 am
        A little ginger to clean the pallet...

        GQ Magazine: Black Panther, Marvel's First Black Superhero, Is Now the Star of the Year's Most Important Comic

        Just over six months ago, Marvel Entertainment shocked the comics and literary worlds alike when it announced that author, Atlantic correspondent, and MacArthur Grant recipient Ta-Nehisi Coates would be writing a year-long Black Panther comic book series alongside acclaimed artist Brian Stelfreeze and colorist Laura Martin. It was huge news that instantly put all sorts of pressure on Black Panther to immediately perform—because while Coates has long professed his love for comics, he writes for an audience that doesn't necessarily read them.

        You'd probably be very happy with it, too. Black Panther #1 is a great start to the year-long story that Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin will tell monthly across eleven issues, and one that's every bit as thoughtful and vivid as you'd expect from the talent assembled. And for the Black Panther, Marvel's first black superhero—it's about damn time the publisher through some serious weight into restoring the character to prominence.

        However, despite having such an important, interesting role in the fiction of Marvel's comics, the comics publisher hasn't always made him a prominent part of their comics lineup. To quote Kotaku writer Evan Narcisse's excellent and comprehensive writeup of the character's history and politics, "The Black Panther has gone from being an under-utilized figure in the background of Avengers group shots to arguably being the most fearsome strategist in the Marvel Universe. His elevation to Marvel’s top tier is a fascinating meta-story." So here we are, with what might be the most highly publicized and biggest comic book series launch of the year, and Black Panther is at the center of it all.

        Black Panther #1 is everything wonderful about comics. It uses grand, symbolic figures to tangibly attack and dismantle big, important ideas. It's a comic that starts with chaos—recent events in Marvel's assorted comics have left Wakanda in disarray, and its people are restless. They're questioning their king and the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women.

        It is, cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy set in a nation almost entirely devoid of white faces, a story about a world power humbled and frustrated with their traditions and the establishments built by men who claim thrones. It is about a king who discovers his kingdom has been infected by hate, and no longer seem to want him. But do they need him?

        Black Panther is asking big questions out of the gate, questions that are eerily relevant to an American audience also in the middle of a search for new leadership almost entirely defined by a rejection of the previous one, an election cycle defined by passions running high and hateful rhetoric reaching a fever pitch. And therein lies the story Coates, Stelfreeze, and Martin are out to tell: What happens when a nation of people discover that their perception of themselves is no longer true?



        Interesting article...the line "it is cleverly, a story about America and patriarchy" is telling about some things I actually do see possibly problematic in Coates possible intentions though I'm eager to see how it plays out.  It looks however that he might be forcing political and social issues into Wakanda that were arguably not there to tell a story addressing these things.  For instance, I don't see the guy Aneka killed being able to do what he did for as LONG as it was suggested he did in Wakanda without no one doing anything...and if the Dora are trusts with guarding the king and the nation, why wouldn't they be able to kill someone for such a heinous crime without the overly harsh sentence of execution?  Coates might be trying to speak on even some harsher political and social things in certain parts of Africa, but that's not and never has been Wakanda in that regard.

        Also, "they're questioning the very idea of monarchy, and the revolution is being led by women" I don't mind this at all, and depending on how he goes about addressing the gender and black female revolutionary action along with black feminist issues...it could be a great read.  However these issues shouldn't be handled or be exactly the same as they are in America and especially in certain parts of Africa...the "Boko Haram" type cells in scans shown most definitely should not be Wakanda as such a thing would never happen there...but perhaps it's a call on how Wakanda and its king should get involved in things that are happening in real world parts of Africa like this.  Maybe that's what Coates is going for and if so that would be a good thing...maybe Aneka and Ayo will serve as the impetus for this involvement as I would hope an advanced place like Wakanda WOULD do something about these things happening not far from its borders.

        As I've said to you before though...I think Coates is going to end monarchy in Wakanda to establish a democracy...just like in America or other more "democratic", so to speak, parts of the world.  The very idea of this run questioning a monarchy and unrest with its "orphan-King" underscores this.


        The fodder is there to tell due in fact to the many mischaracterizations of the Black Panther presented post Hudlin. I had a thread a few years back entitled The Many Mistakes of Reginald Hudlin in which I stated all the advances and nuances, all the logical conclusions about the Black Panther and Wakanda plied by Hudlin would be seen as things that needed to be corrected,undone i.e. the unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm, the brother and sister relationship with Shuri, the cultural leanings and expressions historical insertions that dealt well with past events. Hudlin even made being a king a cool thing with perks.

        "Addressing the gender and black female revolutionary action along with black feminist issues..." are concerns Wakanda should not have. Traditional Afrakan societies exhibited gender equality simultaneously with well defined male and female roles and responsibilities.

        This penchant for most writers to have Wakanda in the thralls of revolution at every writing belies any credibility in the writers creativity in visualizing a truly advanced Afrakan nation.

        Instead of using contemporary social challenges in a failed attempt to "humanize" the populace and remove the stigma of 'utopia' that supposedly is Wakanda; why not focus on examples of their exemplary achievements in the arts and sciences, in their social and political workings, their economy, environmental conservation, deep space exploration and spirituality as it addresses how their society coexist and communes with their supreme being, deities and ancestors.
         

        [url]http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/[/url] ([url]http://blacknerdproblems.com/black-panther-1-the-dora-milaje-come-center-stage/[/url])

        The above link to this article on black nerd problems site may or may not have been posted on here before, surely read by some, but it's a pretty good article thats not only praising Coates first issue (surprised there isn't some criticism on sites I've seen yet, as it's good but far from perfect) but goes into what he's trying to accomplish and definitely for you Ture (and possibly others) something that has some
        points arguably worthy of criticism.

        It is of course also taking a particular view of the the Dora couple whom has obviously been a source of discussion and debate on here...
        as the following passage from the article shows and makes an arguable point about:

        "Black America, like the rest of America, has always had a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Asexual, and other Queer members. We all know the Gay Choir Director or the unmarried Butch Auntie. We have so often pushed these family members to the edges of Black society, allowing them to be erased by the very communities they call home. So for Coates and the rest of the creative team to make not only the Dora Milaje, but two Black lesbian Dora Milaje, one of the primary actors in his series is, dare I say, revolutionary? Or at least so rarely seen as to be damn near? "

        Good points though "revolutionary" might be too strong of a word...but it's pretty clear as the point has been made already that Coates is attempting to address real world issues through Wakanda...which could possibly be problematic.



        American Afrakans like many other ethnic groups in the United States of America "has always had a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our" elders, children, fathers, mothers and our historical and cultural identity. The Afrakan family in the USA has been so beleaguered by negative imaging that some mistakenly believe that all too many so called black men want is a white woman, that all too many so called black women want is a white man or to get out of the ghetto, rap or play ball, be Hollywood housewives, drug sellers or play pimps up hoes down.

        So for Coates and the rest of the creative team have yet to show T'Challa in a stable, functional relationship with a woman he would consider marrying and having children with. dare I say, that would be revolutionary? Or at least so rarely seen as to be damn near? "




        1) Agree with you about the Hudlin run regarding how they pretty much "rolled back" most of what he established...though I wasn't a fan of the run regarding what I saw as a lack of sophistication in the writing and some of it being too contrived...I thought the ideas were sound. But I honestly don't think, outside of the fact that some were obviously virulently not accepting of the Storm marriage, that most of these writers know what to do in terms of writing a comic or character that is a king...let alone the king of an advanced and seen as "perfect" society that's never been conquered. Heck, Namor's most popular run by Byrne involved him NOT being a king...and though I loved David's Aquaman where he was established as king some fans didn't...and i argued with Kurt Busiek when he took on the book as he took this viewpoint that becoming king was the "end of the story" and that there was nowhere to go with it.  Strongly disagreed.  Point being, I think most writers and these companies in general don't know what to do or are comfortable with writing a king/superhero type.

        And the problem with establishing a society that's never been conquered as Hudlin did?  Is that some writers are going to be tempted to write a story where it IS actually conquered.  But they've totally gone all over the place with doing this to the point where the mythos is getting unrecognizable to most long term fans.

         It's also possible Coates is trying to avoid that misguided viewpoint of Panther being a "Mary-sue", which was never true, by injecting all of these social issues from his respectable but limited American liberal outlook along with making the character himself more "human" by making him more "flawed".  Focusing on the societal accomplishments you listed would be a great thing, but then focusing solely on these things does make it sound like a "perfect" society that most writers would want to inject conflict and drama in...though I agree there are more creative ways of doing that other than yet again another "revolution"...though this time I really think it's for a singular purpose: Coates is going to end monarchy in Wakanda

        2) I'm not sure what African Americans, like other ethnic groups, (including Africans in Africa) always having a complicated, stereotyping relationship with our community has to do with the said writers specific and focused viewpoint about our complicated relationship with black LGBT people leading to, as the writer said, being pushed to the edges of our society or "otherized" or their erasure and even and often enough virulent verbal and even physical attacks upon their person.  The relationship always being there underscores that it's still an issue...one arguably in need of addressing.  Though I did say "revolutionary" may be too strong of a word in regards to the inclusion of Aneka and Ayo

        Your viewpoint about the negative images of AA in this society is totally agreed with and THAT should be addressed as well...more hetero black on black relationships should be shown in all media especially comics though I don't feel personally as beleaguered with negative imagery as times before or even some still do.  Again we have a black on black relationship in the white house with daughters and all...and there are some in movies and TV outside of the housewives brand and pimps and hos though arguably there could be more.  Even Panther has had two highly well known relationships in his mythos...both with Black women.

        Panther having a relationship NOW would be a good thing...but it's not like other characters including Captain America and Iron Man, who arguably has UNhealthy relationships, aren't void of this as well.  I just think for most superhero characters especially ones being pushed into a list like Panther is now, writers don't think "family man" superhero type goes over as well.  It's an arguable point though.

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 20, 2016, 06:15:16 am
        Who Gave The Black Panther His Best Debut In An Ongoing?

        ([url]http://www.metronews.ca/content/dam/thestar/uploads/2016/4/7/blackpanther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/panthergreatest8.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/4/41174-6496-46481-1-black-panther.jpg[/url])

        ([url]http://static3.aintitcool.com/assets2011/liss7.jpg[/url])

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        ([url]http://worldofblackheroes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/bp1.jpg[/url])


        Best Debut and overall run so far goes to PRIEST.  for contemporary times highly enjoyed Liss as well.

        Hickman debuted in NA with him very admirably (outside of him not saving ONE of those kids) but quickly lost his way with the character.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on April 20, 2016, 06:48:01 am
        Quote
        To be perfectly honest, I think the fact that the Dora's were flat out arguing that the chieftans actions were known and ignored is an indication that it's NOT exactly uncommon. It's likely not happening in the middle of the street within the golden city. But I'll wager outside of the golden city, in the more rural areas people can and do get away with a lot more.    CBR's XPac


        Quote
        None of this BS existed within the BP mythos before Coates showed up so please stop acting like any of the garbage he's importing into said mythos, has any binding weight on what's known to long term BP enthusiasts.

        As much as I disliked what Hickman did with T'Challa during his New Avengers run, there's no denying the fact that he left Wakanda in a more hopeful place at the close of Secret Wars II.

        This was firmly mirrored in Ewings work in the first issue of the new Ultimates book that clearly illustrated where Wakanda was within the global pecking order.

        Coates on the otherhand, has decided to regress Wakanda toa point that flies completely in the face of pre-established continuity while injecting his own personal viewpoints into a mythos that he has already clearly stated to hold in contempt.

        Coates doesn't believe in the concept of a Monarchy and naturally decides to run rough shod over what existed within the BP mythos before he came along.

        He holds the tradition of the Dora Milaje in disdain as see's same as being "weird" citing the ages of the Dora's as being "problematic" whilst ignoring facts relating to what obtains as the age of consent across the entirety of much of the world outside of North America.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

        And he does all of this with the presumptious arrogance of an explorer who seems to think that he's more knowledgeable about things than the actual people who are about that life.

        But then again, why would he not feel so entitled to make the pronouncements he's so fond of making in his interviews?

        Afterall, he has been commisioned by the selfsame publishers who had no problem allowing the BP mythos to be dragged through the mud and disregarded until the trend towards the financial viability of actual diversity, forced Marvel into jumping onto the progressive bandwagon.     CBR's Mr Majestic

        Again when it's said right, it's said right.

        This was all boldly stated and mostly true.  I thought when Coates got the job that though he was high profile he was limited because he actually is an essayist specializing on sociopolitical issues and NOT a fiction or science fiction writer...so even I'd say his imagination is limited and he's writing from a perspective he's comfortable with and knows.

        2 things: arguably, just because something was not shown in a mythos before doesn't mean it couldn't be said to have been there or have happened...this is true in reality as well as comics as it happens all the time though I am uncomfortable with something like a tribal leader in Wakanda taking advantage of young women and such and no one doing anything.  THAT seems unreasonable knowing Wakanda and Tchalla.  It's also not like the monarchy or leadership in Wakanda has never been questioned before.

        Also, the Dora was approached as possibly being problematic in the PRIEST run when Nakia lost her mind and T'challa questioned Okoye to speak frankly on what she thought of the order and it's possible unfairness to them...especially since they are for him merely ceremonial and he doesn't plan on marrying them. Tchalla himself questioned whther the Dora should end as a practice or not in that issue.

        That being said, though Panther is an African fictional character he is an American property...and I can totally see some fans, especially women and black feminist minded types. being uncomfortable with two younger females being "chosen" from two seperate factions to marry a powerful man out of duty rather than love...especially if the man has no real intention of doing anything with them.  The Dora was always a concept that was ripe for re-interpretation and conflict and judgement as Priest, the one who introduced the concept, even began to show its fallacies in his run.  Though it does happen in other parts of the world (as does other things that some, even people IN those parts, see as problematic) it's something that isn't widely accepted in mainstream America.




        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 22, 2016, 09:50:57 am
        When and Where Can I Get This?!?

        (http://bandai-a.akamaihd.net/bc/img/model/b/1000103639_2.jpg)

        (http://bandai-a.akamaihd.net/bc/img/model/b/1000103639_3.jpg)

        (http://bandai-a.akamaihd.net/bc/img/model/b/1000103639_4.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 22, 2016, 10:08:48 am
        Quote
        Originally Posted by Ekie of CBR

        A throne for wakandan's means they (COATS) wants wakanda to be ruled by All wakandans. He wants wakanda to be more like America's political system. That's the only way to take that. The Dora's being sentenced by just the ruling party and tradition is another clue on how he wants to Americanize Wakanda by coming up with some kind of Jury system instead of a monarch just deciding death is the punishment. That's why the Dora's in this story are portrayed in such a glowing light with LGBT backing to boot. They are the heroes of Coats story and he is going to "Fix" wakanda through them and the "people". This is a story about how T'challa is going to deal with Coats bringing Western enlightenment to Wakanda.
        Every interview I've read has pointed to this and the first issue as well as the previews have. It's pretty obvious.

        just not with it.



        The Dora's are the Heros of this story. They murdered a child molester. In America a jury of their peers would easily not recommend the death penalty and may even give a lightened sentence for such an act. But in Wakanda....Coats has shown that there is no "rational justice system" just tradition and the tyrants aka Panther clan. So the Dora's escape to fight on the injustices of the nation.

        T'challa is supposed to take them down?


        then the lady in green clearly states that she isn't mind controlling ppl but just fuels an already lit fire. So she's also not a villain otherwise that would villianize the people's "true desires" of democracy....again Tchalla is supposed to stop her?

        T'challa is not Coats Hero.

        the Doras and the "people" are.

        I haven't put much though into the title of this series but what does a Nation UNDER our feet actually mean? Is The Panther clan holding down or back Wakanda?

        I'm sorry but this is the obvious direction. It's one thing to have Tchalla doing some OOc things by a writer. We can all agree and disagree on those things and still love the mythos, but another to completely villainize a mythos and change it in the name of real world rational and western morality/politics/judicial values.

        This WILL be a very interesting and well written story but it won't be about T'challa, Shuri, the Panther clan, or superheros overcoming the odds. It'll be about Coats ideal of what makes a nation great.

        That is about as clear as it gets. Add a touch of theChaos Bringer...

        Quote
        The mythos never needed fixing until unfans started writing it.

        a little more Ekie...

        Quote

        Exactly, Coats can "fix" it and will maybe even elevate the profile of T'challa and Wakanda to the white comic audience but to do so he feels he needs to change him into the Spiderman or Daredevil of his nation and his nation into the New York of Africa rather than it's ruler. That isn't the character this thread has been dominating CRB about for a decade.
        I don't want T'challa or Shuri to be called King/Queen unless they are actually the King or the Queen. England can keep their Elizabeth we want rulers. If this is the case them just move him back to Hells Kitchen and write about that with less acumen that Liss did so we know what we are getting into.

        Nuff said.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 22, 2016, 11:29:50 am
        I would counter with these points:

        Quote from: Double 0;1957770
        I have a question, why would a guy who is one of the most critical writers against American criminal justice system, and the system itself (including capitalism), in mainstream journalism outside of Michelle Alexander...

        Make Wakanda exactly like the system he's critical of?


        Quote from: Mike_Murdock;1958007
        There's absolutely no evidence the King decides guilt in this system either.  Nothing in that first issue contradicted the possibility of there being a jury already.*  The only thing clear is that the King's mother has the power to issue pardons.  To me, that was the implicit criticism (to the extent there was any) - someone who is accountable only to the King whose authority derives from being married to the previous King has the power of clemency without any democratic oversight.  The textual debate was whether a person who is legally guilty should be acquitted because their actions were morally justified.

        * I know this seems an odd point to harp on, but the suggestion is Coates wants to change the criminal justice system to be more like the US's system.  We don't have a clue what Coates's long-term plan is and I'm not sure everyone here is correct with the starting point.

        Obviously, we'll have to see when it comes to the political thing.  The fact that they said "throne" tells me those specific people want a different King, not a democracy.  Where we'll end up is a different question.  But we're reading a lot from so little.


        Quote from: Kasper Cole;1958405
        Another thing to keep in mind about the Dora situation is that they didn't just kill some no name person,  Aneka killed the Chieftain of another tribe.

        It was basically the equivalent of the head secret service executing a Senator.

        As Dora Milaje they're held to a higher standard than other citizens of the realm. That was the point Ramonda was trying to make.

        Changes are coming, and I don't have much faith that they'll be changes I agree with, but I also don't think Coates is going to put in a place system akin to what we have in the U.S. Like Double 0 said Coates has continually been critical of the U.S. political and legal system.


        *edit*

        I think most of my discomfort with the changes that will possibly take place is the face that the mysticism of Wakanda is seemingly being ignored or downplayed. There's so much talk of "A technologically advanced nations wouldn't allow ____" that ignores that one of the more interesting aspects of Wakanda is the contradiction of them being technologically advanced while also having a deep connection to mysticism.

        Funny enough this was illustrated quite well in AvsX when T'Challa spoke of the fact that he comes from a technologically advanced nation, but many of his abilities come from him ingesting an herb and communing with a deity.


        Will Things change? i think they will, But is Wakanda going to adopt a Western Democracy because Coates is highly critical of it and making Wakanda into something he doesn't like makes zero sense.

        One thing myself and Realdealholy from CBR discussed was a possibly of this:

        Quote from: Realdealholy;1958545
        Right, it seems like a good fit for both, considering their talents and ideologies.

        If the Monarchy system has to change, I would be alright with the diarchy system that involves the Panther cult and the council. Seems like somewhat of a win / win, at least on paper:

        -T'Challa is still King and wields the highest amount of authority in almost all sectors.

        -T'Challa gets to go play superhero while being King and doesn't have to worry much about Wakanda, as the co-ruler (Shuri, for example), the Panther chieftain and the council are running the country.

        -There are checks to T'Challa's rule via the co-ruler, the Panther Chieftain and the council in very specific issues and circumstances.

        -The Wakandan people have a voice in governing via the council and the Panther chieftain. Especially so if T'Challa and Shuri, for example, disagree on a specific issue.

        -I would add one thing: when declaring war is on the table, everyone must agree: both rulers and the strong majority of the council, which includes the Panther chieftain. Wakanda is a traditionally isolationist nation so going to war should be a big deal. Similar to how when Wakanda declared war on Atlantis, everyone was on board: the Wakandan people, the council, the military, and Shuri herself.

        Still tempering my expectations greatly, but if such a system would be a hell of a surprise.


        Quote from: Ezyo1000;1958662
        And that would be how you solve the monarch issue with out getting rid of it, doing that  would allow T'Challa to still be king without losing too much and keeping the highest authority, give people a voice through the council and Panther chieftain, allows T'Challa to take on superhero adventures without leaving the kingdom to a coup as it's covered by a Queen, a chieftain and the council all capable of leading the nation should a prior power be unable to lead, moves Wakanda to a more functional government while he is away while still keeping it unique to the mythos. Funny how discussing it here we came up with a great solution to make everyone Happy. Those branches keep the rest in check as thy can't just act however they please and cannot be challenged either. If Coates did something like this and pulled it off so that in came after a triumphant victory then I'd be like

        ([url]http://i.imgur.com/UNY3mrM.gif[/url])

        [/b][/size]
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 22, 2016, 02:51:54 pm
        What a fascinating debate!  Eerily similar in some respects to one recently left in smoldering ashes.  This instead exemplifies an anxiety clearly born from unfulfilled promises past.  A mistrust earned by Marvel and its creative agents dangling the carrot of greater prestige, respectability and competence from the rod of preference and favoritism.

        I feel the angst from Brothers Ture, Sal and others and I appreciate the calm and reason of Brother Ezyo and others.  The wait and see approach has not been fruitful for Wakandan faithful of late.  As has been pointed out, even HEF's most well received BP creators have struck a sour chord or two in telling their tales of Wakanda.  Preist caught flak for "Ross," Reg caught flak for dialog, Liss caught flak for T'Challa spurning Storm, all had their chance to tell their tale.  Both Priest and Reg introduced the idea of the monarchy being supported by a Wakandan Council.  Hopefully Coates is doing nothing more to diminish Wakandan royal rule?  Coates' 12th issue is in the can so whatever he's done is done and we'll find out over the course of the year if any faith in him was warranted.  A familiar position for us to be sure.  Perhaps, I'm destined to be an unrequited optimist -- I just don't want to believe right now, this early on, that Coates is going to chump T'Challa and Wakanda out and let us all down like some think.  I certainly don't blame any for being too jaded to have faith in him, however.  It's not like we haven't been down this road before. 

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 23, 2016, 11:24:33 pm
        Is The Woman standing Behind the Black Widow a Dora Milaje?

        (http://41.media.tumblr.com/23c5c0426cb92fe43f805afd6bc96a4a/tumblr_o5uqarYd4m1v57sc5o1_1280.jpg)

        Here is another post by Victor Freeman,  Ezyo. What do you think?

        Quote
        My opinion is pretty clear. If what being said is what Coates is doing...then he is westernizing Wakanda, PERIOD. Leave it be. There is nothing wrong with what I just wrote about their system and the government it has always used for 10,000 years canonically. I'm not interested in a watered down Monarchy or Government. I don't want to see Wakanda-America or Europeanized-Wakanda (via France or something)....or I don't care what type of government he is going to use. This fiction, so there isn't anything wrong with what Wakanda has always been. I have a hard time watching people jump through these massive hopes to explain and rationalize something that doesn't need "fixing". I love the guys writing. I was following him before he came on Panther. I buy his non-fiction books. He is a great writer, but if he does these things...I don't get why people seem to operate like this when writing certain characters. With T'challa and Wakanda is always from a point of limitation, placed in a box, regression instead of progression and neutering. These seems to be a extreme mental block with Suspension of belief.

        T'challa being KING with full powers as a KING IS one of the CENTRAL drawing points of the character. This King in name only crap...is for the birds. Again, why would there been a need for a diarchy system? Please, what you just wrote doesn't make sense. If she can still "be out there", then so can T'challa. Again, they have always had regents. There is no need to change the current system or remove one of T'challa key traits...being a King. They are already a Oligarch with a Parliament, with a Monarch as the head of the land. What you are suggesting only makes Shuri Queen, while ignoring why people keep saying Shuri should be Queen (to run Wakanda), while removing what makes T'challa unique, effectively removing it and making it in name only.

        There is nothing wrong with using Regents. Hell, you can have two Regents. One elected and one appointed (head of the council).

        But I will not co-sign making Wakanda "baby France" or something.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 24, 2016, 05:16:53 am
        This reminds me of one of the major flaws of comic book writing in modern comics, that I have read about on another board.  The writer has a story he wants to tell, so he forces the characters and situation to fit his story, rather than writing the stories that fit the character.  The character is changed to fit the story rather than the story changed to fit the character. We have seen this when writer totally change the personality of characters (Grant Morrison on the X-Men, for example).  The first Civil War was another example of this; a story that was forced and made people act in ways they shouldn't.   And I said this before and will say it again, I think Coates wants to write an "Arab Spring" storyline, so he's forcing Wakanda into the story, rather than writing Wakanda as it is. 

        Plus, I have also been told that some stories just should not be told.  Part of me hates this idea, but maybe there is truth that some stories should not be told because they damage the character too much.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 24, 2016, 09:44:25 am
        Is The Woman standing Behind the Black Widow a Dora Milaje?

        ([url]http://41.media.tumblr.com/23c5c0426cb92fe43f805afd6bc96a4a/tumblr_o5uqarYd4m1v57sc5o1_1280.jpg[/url])

        Here is another post by Victor Freeman,  Ezyo. What do you think?

        Quote
        My opinion is pretty clear. If what being said is what Coates is doing...then he is westernizing Wakanda, PERIOD. Leave it be. There is nothing wrong with what I just wrote about their system and the government it has always used for 10,000 years canonically. I'm not interested in a watered down Monarchy or Government. I don't want to see Wakanda-America or Europeanized-Wakanda (via France or something)....or I don't care what type of government he is going to use. This fiction, so there isn't anything wrong with what Wakanda has always been. I have a hard time watching people jump through these massive hopes to explain and rationalize something that doesn't need "fixing". I love the guys writing. I was following him before he came on Panther. I buy his non-fiction books. He is a great writer, but if he does these things...I don't get why people seem to operate like this when writing certain characters. With T'challa and Wakanda is always from a point of limitation, placed in a box, regression instead of progression and neutering. These seems to be a extreme mental block with Suspension of belief.

        T'challa being KING with full powers as a KING IS one of the CENTRAL drawing points of the character. This King in name only crap...is for the birds. Again, why would there been a need for a diarchy system? Please, what you just wrote doesn't make sense. If she can still "be out there", then so can T'challa. Again, they have always had regents. There is no need to change the current system or remove one of T'challa key traits...being a King. They are already a Oligarch with a Parliament, with a Monarch as the head of the land. What you are suggesting only makes Shuri Queen, while ignoring why people keep saying Shuri should be Queen (to run Wakanda), while removing what makes T'challa unique, effectively removing it and making it in name only.

        There is nothing wrong with using Regents. Hell, you can have two Regents. One elected and one appointed (head of the council).

        But I will not co-sign making Wakanda "baby France" or something.



        Yo answe your question, yes I believe it's been confirmed that she is a Dora Milaje, I think she is more of a cameo then anything though. But apparently she says something to Widow about being able to kick her ass or something.

        As for the reply, I actually did respond to it in that forum

        Quote from: Ezyo1000;1962468
        For one, i highly doubt Coates is going to turn Wakanda into a US democracy. He is very critical of the US justice system and the system itself, so why would he turn Wakanda into something he doesn't like? Also what are you confused on about the Diarchy? A Diarchy would simply mean that both Shuri and T'Challa had equal power, if T'Challa left to go out into deep space then Shuri would make the choices. In Hudlin's run Shuri was reluctant to take charge when the US ship was docked outside of Wakanda Even though she is the Princess regent. Changing it would give her more power and T'Challas would stay the same. And with that Shuri could do stuff too but given how she has been written (by Hudlin as well) she isbt one to run off with the Avenger's, she stays in Wakanda and would more likely go around kicking teeth in the region. Us it helps keep coup in check, in Priest's run the council nor Ramonda couldn't stop Achebe, and same in Hudlin's, they still happened because T'Challa is the king and he was away and the country acted like without the leader the couldn't stop anything. This would make it harder to write revolt while away stories because they can co-rule 


        [/size][/b]
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 24, 2016, 10:25:20 am
        This reminds me of one of the major flaws of comic book writing in modern comics, that I have read about on another board.  The writer has a story he wants to tell, so he forces the characters and situation to fit his story, rather than writing the stories that fit the character.  The character is changed to fit the story rather than the story changed to fit the character. We have seen this when writer totally change the personality of characters (Grant Morrison on the X-Men, for example).  The first Civil War was another example of this; a story that was forced and made people act in ways they shouldn't.   And I said this before and will say it again, I think Coates wants to write an "Arab Spring" storyline, so he's forcing Wakanda into the story, rather than writing Wakanda as it is. 

        Plus, I have also been told that some stories just should not be told.  Part of me hates this idea, but maybe there is truth that some stories should not be told because they damage the character too much.

        I completely  understand where your coming from and I agree that it's something that needs to be handled right. AvX, Doom war, ED/TRO all bhad cases as well where characters are written in a way that damages them. T'Challa and Storm wouldn't have chosen sides in AvX and would of taken a third-party  position acting in order to solve the issues. Doom war was just crap designed to say "look how great Doom is. While I make everyone else look like dog crap" and tro.. Well we all know how that happened there.

        But with Coates tun I think it's a little different because he is addressing those other issues and actually following continuity instead of ignoring what's happened prior to his run. It's not the story we wanted (I hate this premise) but it makes the most sense this time around then any other because of continuity. So if this clears everything up and allows us to get to a  point where we aren't getting coups every time he leaves then that will be good, so long as the change Coates is making isn't taking T'Challas power to a dramatically diminished position. If it must change then a Diarchy system would be a good alternative, and having a Panther chieftain as second to the King and Queen (T'Challa and Shuri) and a council to go with it. That way T'Challa has the highest authority as well as Shuri, and he can superhero around without a coup arising when he is gone. We will see what Coates has ib store. May 7th can't come faster
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 24, 2016, 10:35:28 am
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 24, 2016, 12:26:40 pm
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.

        Nothing suprises me as regards writers mangling the BP mythos post Reginald Hudlin.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 24, 2016, 02:28:54 pm
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.

        Hoping for a Diarchy with a new spin Priest's notion of Bo chieftain and King/Queen of Wakanda beig separate while giving a council that act as the voice of the people. The king and queen have the highest authority (T'Challa and Shuri) Bo chieftain (Ramonda) can make decisions but ultimately is second to the King and Queen. If they disagree she would Also acr as a mediator, and if it still couldn't be solved then it goes to the council for a vote. Any major issues requires all of them present and they must all be in agreement or atleast majority of the council in top of the king, Queen and chieftain.

        This would allow Coates to change the government to a more then just absolute ruke by one person. It outs checks and balances with out robbing T'Challa of his power. That's what I hoep for if Coates intends on changing Wakandas government
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 25, 2016, 12:07:30 pm
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.

        Hoping for a Diarchy with a new spin Priest's notion of Bo chieftain and King/Queen of Wakanda beig separate while giving a council that act as the voice of the people. The king and queen have the highest authority (T'Challa and Shuri) Bo chieftain (Ramonda) can make decisions but ultimately is second to the King and Queen. If they disagree she would Also acr as a mediator, and if it still couldn't be solved then it goes to the council for a vote. Any major issues requires all of them present and they must all be in agreement or atleast majority of the council in top of the king, Queen and chieftain.

        This would allow Coates to change the government to a more then just absolute ruke by one person. It outs checks and balances with out robbing T'Challa of his power. That's what I hoep for if Coates intends on changing Wakandas government


        Bro, everything you've described here, already existed in the BP mythos before Coates arrival.

        Dude isn't bringing anything new to said mythos other than straight up regressionist BS.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 25, 2016, 01:45:47 pm
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.

        Hoping for a Diarchy with a new spin Priest's notion of Bo chieftain and King/Queen of Wakanda beig separate while giving a council that act as the voice of the people. The king and queen have the highest authority (T'Challa and Shuri) Bo chieftain (Ramonda) can make decisions but ultimately is second to the King and Queen. If they disagree she would Also acr as a mediator, and if it still couldn't be solved then it goes to the council for a vote. Any major issues requires all of them present and they must all be in agreement or atleast majority of the council in top of the king, Queen and chieftain.

        This would allow Coates to change the government to a more then just absolute ruke by one person. It outs checks and balances with out robbing T'Challa of his power. That's what I hoep for if Coates intends on changing Wakandas government


        Bro, everything you've described here, already existed in the BP mythos before Coates arrival.

        Dude isn't bringing anything new to said mythos other than straight up regressionist BS.

        I know its already in the Mythos, Priet had it with the king and BP chieftain being two separate positions, and the Council as well as Hudlin having a council with T'Challa. But Ultimately things still came down to 1. T'Challa makes all the decisions and if he is away then its as though Wakanda can't function on its own. 2 when he is gone Coups arise since there isn't anyone on the throne to keep it in check. Having the Diarchy also allows Shuri to stay queen and not get demoted, and allows her to make sure Coups cannot arise when T'Challa is away (Hudlin had her doubting being able to do anything when the Us warships parked in front of Wakanda and it was just like "T'Challa aint here what do we do?" But she should have the power to be like "Yo US back off your out of line" and they heed the warning.

        Basically its taking Priests and Hudlin's government establishment and fleshing it out so that there are other plans in place to take care of the homefront when T"Challa is away
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 25, 2016, 02:09:55 pm
        Are you hoping it's a Diarchy or know it?  Because a Diarchy is still a form of monarchy; and from what I've seen he thinks ruling families are not a modern, culturally mature form of government.

        However, I would be surprised if he actually did end the monarchy.

        Hoping for a Diarchy with a new spin Priest's notion of Bo chieftain and King/Queen of Wakanda beig separate while giving a council that act as the voice of the people. The king and queen have the highest authority (T'Challa and Shuri) Bo chieftain (Ramonda) can make decisions but ultimately is second to the King and Queen. If they disagree she would Also acr as a mediator, and if it still couldn't be solved then it goes to the council for a vote. Any major issues requires all of them present and they must all be in agreement or atleast majority of the council in top of the king, Queen and chieftain.

        This would allow Coates to change the government to a more then just absolute ruke by one person. It outs checks and balances with out robbing T'Challa of his power. That's what I hoep for if Coates intends on changing Wakandas government


        Bro, everything you've described here, already existed in the BP mythos before Coates arrival.

        Dude isn't bringing anything new to said mythos other than straight up regressionist BS.

        I know its already in the Mythos, Priet had it with the king and BP chieftain being two separate positions, and the Council as well as Hudlin having a council with T'Challa. But Ultimately things still came down to 1. T'Challa makes all the decisions and if he is away then its as though Wakanda can't function on its own. 2 when he is gone Coups arise since there isn't anyone on the throne to keep it in check. Having the Diarchy also allows Shuri to stay queen and not get demoted, and allows her to make sure Coups cannot arise when T'Challa is away (Hudlin had her doubting being able to do anything when the Us warships parked in front of Wakanda and it was just like "T'Challa aint here what do we do?" But she should have the power to be like "Yo US back off your out of line" and they heed the warning.

        Basically its taking Priests and Hudlin's government establishment and fleshing it out so that there are other plans in place to take care of the homefront when T"Challa is away


        I don't think Coates is interested in writing this kind of story.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 25, 2016, 07:05:00 pm
        Question for the Board...

        Is such a "Diarchy" something that has ever been done well in the history of the world?  Anywhere, not just Africa, anywhere in the world?  Forgive my ignorance, I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not anyone can cite an example?  Would it, by extension, be an example of something only an exceptionally enlightened society could accept and make work?  I like to think of Wakanda as being to the rest of the world what Roddenberry's Federation would be to 21st century civilization.  Would establishing a working, successful Diarchy represent a remarkable societal achievement?

        As someone said earlier T'Challa being a King with the responsibilities of a true monarch has been one of the coolest aspects of his characterization.  Good storytelling should acknowledge and accommodate his unique responsibilities not feel obliged to remove them.  We'll see what happens?

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 25, 2016, 07:44:52 pm
        Question for the Board...

        Is such a "Diarchy" something that has ever been done well in the history of the world?  Anywhere, not just Africa, anywhere in the world?  Forgive my ignorance, I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not anyone can cite an example?  Would it, by extension, be an example of something only an exceptionally enlightened society could accept and make work?  I like to think of Wakanda as being to the rest of the world what Roddenberry's Federation would be to 21st century civilization.  Would establishing a working, successful Diarchy represent a remarkable societal achievement?

        As someone said earlier T'Challa being a King with the responsibilities of a true monarch has been one of the coolest aspects of his characterization.  Good storytelling should acknowledge and accommodate his unique responsibilities not feel obliged to remove them.  We'll see what happens?

        Peace,

        Mont

        I don't think it can; unless the two are in perfect harmony, perfect sync.  But since they aren't; someone has to make the final decision.  If it goes to a third party to make a final decision than it's not a Diarchy, but really a Triachy (if that's such a word), because anyone who can break a tie, has the authority is really equal to the others.

        The thing is, this struggle isn't unique to Wakanda.  Thor stories often deal with the conflict between Thor, prince of Asgard vs Thor the super-hero.  Most often, his job as prince suffers.  Namor, king of Atlantis vs Namor the super-hero/villain; Atlantis often suffers and there are many coupes.  "Paradise Island", has run problems with both Diana playing a hero and her mother when she became the golden aged Wonder Woman, leading to attempted coups and wars.  (Actually, this storyline with Coates is reminding me of one of these coups in Wonder Woman, including the subplot with the lesbian couple.)  Even the Inhumans where Black Bolt never plays the super-hero, still deals with civic unrest, because of his brother.  I think the only fictional society that lacks this civic unrest was the Eternals.  And their leader never played a super-hero.  (hmmm, actually, there might have been one storyline where someone attempted a coup.  But when an entire civilization merges into a single entity and shares one mind, it probably makes coups difficult.) Though there civilization has been sortof reduced to a handful. Yet, not one of them is seeing a storyline where the form of government will actually change. Maybe temporarily someone else will take the throne or something, but eventually it returns to status quo.  This is the first time we've seen a writer come and say, "monarchy bad, must do something about it."

        Aquaman is the only royalty I'm not sure about; I believe he has had to deal with coups too, but they have been rebooted so many times, I can't keep track of how those stories actually worked.

        Edited because I forget to include my point.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: True Father 7 on April 26, 2016, 07:24:17 am
        ^
        The 100 is a sci-fi show on The CW. But I feel what you're saying about this new development in Black Panther. I got a feeling that racism, colonialism, and imperialism will take a back seat to black male sexism and promotion of alternative lifestyles, something more trendy and in keeping with mollifying liberal, homosexual, and feminist sentiments if the book continues along this line.

        And it's so sad. There was so much potential and as I said before I was pretty hyped at first but I see where this is going. I was most excited for my children to read it but like the movies Dear White People and Dope I knew that they would be grossed out. Told my oldest daughter there was a lesbian couple in it and she was like no thanks. She still has her Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur and Ms Marvel. I find it funny how people feel that others should accept everything that they accept, the fact is homosexuality grosses some people out, that's just a reality and they don't want to read about those acts or be exposed to that type of imagery and they have that right. Eating boogers is a behavior as well that grosses some people out. Funny thing is you could watch Revenge of the Nerds and no one would say you have a people eating boogers phobia of those who partake in that behavior if you didn't like Booger's character but if you don't like the black gay guy you'd probably be called homophobic which is very extreme, the definition of which needs to be redefined cause I never ever ran from the Ku Klux Klan and I never ever ran from a gay man. Then again it's not like everyone wears that sexual preference on their person as a badge of honor. Anyone can be gay, which means many police officers or security guards I ran from back in my adolescence could have been but I digress

        On a more serious note, fighting for a behavior that many racist white people partake in will never supersede the fight against white supremacy which is still the MAIN enemy. Some of us aren't easily fooled. I will say this, for a first issue it has sparked a lot of conversation. I just hope Coates does not destroy all the mythos and what makes the Black Panther and Wakanda what they are. With THAT being said, like you mentioned BP does not belong to us and as comic fans we seem to forget way too often that what makes great characters is all the drama and obstacles they overcome. People knock Mcgregor's work a lot but I thought he did a fantastic job of showing T'challa's resilience and how much he overcame, so did Priest, so Hudlin's run was a breath of fresh air for me to just see T'challa as a badass that could not be f*cked with! Lol, Hudlin's run was just fun fun fun. Now it feels like we are brought back down to Earth and realize T'challa bleeds like us and we got hit upside the head with that in the early panels. Fingers crossed to see Monica Lynne come back. They went through a lot together and were once engaged. I'm sure she wouldn't have dissed the king for wack ass Logan, lol. Bring back Monica!!! Lol
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 26, 2016, 04:38:51 pm
        Son of the Black Panther
        Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
        BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
        April 26, 2016


        This article has been edited.

        ... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

        The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/f3138a980a198c1149e87039a75325f7fb239d76.jpeg?w=400&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=615)

        Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

        There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

        Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/dfe561cde59e3c086804e843a9545e10b57186d6.jpeg?w=600&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=911)

        Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/5fb844c02521d1a93a28cc00d46f8c11c359cc52.tiff?w=800&q=65&dpi=1&h=618)

        While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

        If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

        Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

        The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

        One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

        A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

        Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

        Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

        Full unedited article here
        https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 26, 2016, 04:51:48 pm
        Small preview of Stelfreeze Issue #5 cover...

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_uH7iXEAYFRWG.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 27, 2016, 02:17:30 pm
        I'm really getting sick and tired of all these articles praising Coates.

        You'd think he was reinventing the wheel as opposed to imposing his own hackneyed viewpoint upon the BP mythos.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 27, 2016, 03:19:20 pm
        I'm really getting sick and tired of all these articles praising Coates.

        You'd think he was reinventing the wheel as opposed to imposing his own hackneyed viewpoint upon the BP mythos.

        I wouldn't be surpassed for most of these articlles come from people who aren't traditional fans of BP.  At the most, he's an idea to them, not a fully developed charter.  I wonder how many have read a comic on the last ten years.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 27, 2016, 03:23:45 pm
        I'm really getting sick and tired of all these articles praising Coates.

        You'd think he was reinventing the wheel as opposed to imposing his own hackneyed viewpoint upon the BP mythos.

        I wouldn't be surpassed for most of these articlles come from people who aren't traditional fans of BP.  At the most, he's an idea to them, not a fully developed charter.  I wonder how many have read a comic on the last ten years.

        Like yourself, I too, have come to the conclusion that  most of the "professionals" praising Coates are doing so from a position far removed from that of the comic book enthusiast.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 27, 2016, 03:32:29 pm
        Small preview of Stelfreeze Issue #5 cover...

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_uH7iXEAYFRWG.jpg)

        Some people are saying it could possibly be Manifold.. If it was and he became T'Challa's Protege, i could get behind that. He seemed like an interesting enough character to atleast expand upon
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 27, 2016, 09:08:52 pm
        Small preview of Stelfreeze Issue #5 cover...

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_uH7iXEAYFRWG.jpg)

        Some people are saying it could possibly be Manifold.. If it was and he became T'Challa's Protege, i could get behind that. He seemed like an interesting enough character to atleast expand upon

        I want it to be Killmonger.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 27, 2016, 09:23:39 pm
        @Kimoyo - At this junction in the Panther's 50 year comic book career the only thing certain is the deconstruction of T'Challa and Wakanda. The use of a diarchal, triarchal, hell even an omniarchal would only service this end.

        @ Sal - that article revealed that Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man. Panther again receives sloppy seconds. I wonder if Coates were writing Spider-Man if he would have injected Spiderman's reluctance at being an unappreciated superhero? Would he have dealt with the human trafficing in New York city. Would he have written two gay men dealing with so called homophobia with violence and would he have been heralded for doing such? Well maybe Coates will pull a Priest.


        With some exceptions all these past decades we witnessed writers hedging the Black Panther's potential. Writing an inefficacious king who does not dispense justice, emprisonment or capitol punishment to those most deserving. I cite Zemo, the KKK, the Supremacists, the nation of Azania, Anton Petorius, Apartheid South Africa, Doom, Red Skull, Namor and Thanos. Get the picture.Nothing but fodder for a new writer of Coates' pedigree.

        Instead however, we must contend with a writer who finds justification in fabricating tales of a reluctant king whose nation tolerates the abuse of women and human trafficking.

        Are we going to witness yet another highjacking of the Black Panther's comic book, the usurpation of T'Challa as we did with Everett K. Ross, Kasper Cole, Shuri and now by Ayo and Aneka? First it was argued for a white narrator, then a bi-racial protagonist, next a woman, now two lesbians. Where is the argument for T'Challa the Black Panther?


        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 28, 2016, 12:05:25 pm
        @Kimoyo - At this junction in the Panther's 50 year comic book career the only thing certain is the deconstruction of T'Challa and Wakanda. The use of a diarchal, triarchal, hell even an omniarchal would only service this end.

        @ Sal - that article revealed that Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man. Panther again receives sloppy seconds. I wonder if Coates were writing Spider-Man if he would have injected Spiderman's reluctance at being an unappreciated superhero? Would he have dealt with the human trafficing in New York city. Would he have written two gay men dealing with so called homophobia with violence and would he have been heralded for doing such? Well maybe Coates will pull a Priest.


        With some exceptions all these past decades we witnessed writers hedging the Black Panther's potential. Writing an inefficacious king who does not dispense justice, emprisonment or capitol punishment to those most deserving. I cite Zemo, the KKK, the Supremacists, the nation of Azania, Anton Petorius, Apartheid South Africa, Doom, Red Skull, Namor and Thanos. Get the picture.Nothing but fodder for a new writer of Coates' pedigree.

        Instead however, we must contend with a writer who finds justification in fabricating tales of a reluctant king whose nation tolerates the abuse of women and human trafficking.

        Are we going to witness yet another highjacking of the Black Panther's comic book, the usurpation of T'Challa as we did with Everett K. Ross, Kasper Cole, Shuri and now by Ayo and Aneka? First it was argued for a white narrator, then a bi-racial protagonist, next a woman, now two lesbians. Where is the argument for T'Challa the Black Panther?


        To me, Reginald Hudlin will always remain the only writer to chronicle the Black Panther Mythos in a manner that was focused, dedicated and straight up unapologetically BLACK.

        There was ZERO ambiguity in Hudlin's take on the mythos and for that, I will always remain grateful.

        Coates is no friend to the Black Panther mythos.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Evasive 1 on April 28, 2016, 12:49:58 pm

        I might be one of the people you are referring to. It was not my intention to disturb you. I do have an issue with the promotion of homosexuality ahead of racism and colonialism in a Black Panther comic. Why did Coates delay discussing racism yet puts homosexuality front and center? I think he did so because in a way homosexuality is more acceptable to discuss and it endears him more to liberals, etc. It's a safer topic, relatively speaking. And I do think of the financial incentive as well. You don't want to be controversial, or too controversial because that might affect the bottom line.

        Black misogyny is also something that's discussed and used as a charge against black men quite a bit, but what about black misandry? (Misandry=hatred or dislike of men). Misogyny is something that should be pointed out and condemned, but it is okay to portray and accuse black men of being dogs, lazy, shiftless, trifling, abusive, criminal, and stuff in popular culture, etc. and that's seen as okay. Further there is a larger issue of showing black men as ineffectual and sexless (unless it is interracial sex, homosexual sex, or dysfunctional heterosexual sex). I'm not saying that there aren't black men who aren't abusive or sexist, but at the same time black men are painted with a broad brush and seen as unworthy for a variety of reasons.

        I do want this Black Panther series to be about T'Challa. He should be front and center. He shouldn't be a side character to two totally new characters and their romance. Personally I would rather see the promotion of more intraracial, heterosexual relationships in comics and across the media, more so than any other kind of romantic/sexual relationship where black characters are concerned.

        I did not advocate for the death of those two characters. It's not something I promote or cheer when I see it, but I also understand that homosexuality is being promoted hard in the media right now, along with interracial relationships, and for me its an issue of just rolling with it...to an extent.

        And I do have concerns that black people have to be for 'everyone' far too much. When for one, not everyone is for black people. And two, that means that often I feel black people have to put their concerns on the back burner to mollify our so-called allies or fold them into a "universal" coalition that still leaves blacks at the bottom. I am concerned that Coates might wind up doing that with T'Challa, leaving him in no better a spot than where he found him. If at the end of his run we know more about these two characters than we do about him or haven't seen him kick major ass then I think that troubling pattern will hold.

        Post of the week!!!
        Emperorjones, your clarity on these matters is letter perfect.
        Co-sign!

        And this too:

        @Kimoyo - At this junction in the Panther's 50 year comic book career the only thing certain is the deconstruction of T'Challa and Wakanda. The use of a diarchal, triarchal, hell even an omniarchal would only service this end.

        @ Sal - that article revealed that Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man. Panther again receives sloppy seconds. I wonder if Coates were writing Spider-Man if he would have injected Spiderman's reluctance at being an unappreciated superhero? Would he have dealt with the human trafficing in New York city. Would he have written two gay men dealing with so called homophobia with violence and would he have been heralded for doing such? Well maybe Coates will pull a Priest.


        With some exceptions all these past decades we witnessed writers hedging the Black Panther's potential. Writing an inefficacious king who does not dispense justice, emprisonment or capitol punishment to those most deserving. I cite Zemo, the KKK, the Supremacists, the nation of Azania, Anton Petorius, Apartheid South Africa, Doom, Red Skull, Namor and Thanos. Get the picture.Nothing but fodder for a new writer of Coates' pedigree.

        Instead however, we must contend with a writer who finds justification in fabricating tales of a reluctant king whose nation tolerates the abuse of women and human trafficking.

        Are we going to witness yet another highjacking of the Black Panther's comic book, the usurpation of T'Challa as we did with Everett K. Ross, Kasper Cole, Shuri and now by Ayo and Aneka? First it was argued for a white narrator, then a bi-racial protagonist, next a woman, now two lesbians. Where is the argument for T'Challa the Black Panther?


        To me, Reginald Hudlin will always remain the only writer to chronicle the Black Panther Mythos in a manner that was focused, dedicated and straight up unapologetically BLACK.

        There was ZERO ambiguity in Hudlin's take on the mythos and for that, I will always remain grateful.

        Coates is no friend to the Black Panther mythos.
        I was all excited for the first issue especially when I heard it sold out. But, now I'm reading these reviews and I'm no longer very hopeful for this series. Fact is, when Coates was announced as taking over and he started out praising that jack-ass that started the "deconstruction" BP with the whole Doom War fiasco, I kinda saw the writing on the wall, but was hoping I would be wrong. Well now we know. Oh, well. I guess I can still get my fix of T-Challa along with Blue Marvel in The Ultimates.

        Yeah, I know. I know.  I lurk quite a bit on this forum and every blue moon I speak up.....    ::)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 28, 2016, 01:27:42 pm
        Small preview of Stelfreeze Issue #5 cover...

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg_uH7iXEAYFRWG.jpg)

        Some people are saying it could possibly be Manifold.. If it was and he became T'Challa's Protege, i could get behind that. He seemed like an interesting enough character to atleast expand upon

        I want it to be Killmonger.

        According to Coates Twitter, it is Indeed Manifold, so he may become T'challa's Protege, and who knows, maybe then people of Wakanda won't have to worry about T'Challa leave as he can teleport right back, same the with excuse of him not being able to be in multiple teams.


        Also as its been said before. I get the reason to be pessimistic i really do, but we are literally 1 issue in with absolutely no idea on how this is gonna end up. Now im not saying trust in Coates and there are things im not too fond of, but I think he does want to write a good BP story and to do that you need a strong opening, a dramatic middle, and a satisfying ending and its gonna be tough for T'Challa but because this isn't a one and done story and Coates has signed on to write BP for a few years, you can't just have a bunch of stories of deconstruction eith no sign of clear cut victories and expect the book to do good, So yea i think this arc may be rough, but for Solo's the point is to elevate the character. So i mean to act like we know how this ends already is a bit premature..

        Jeez i feel like brother S.I. WHich btw where has he gone?? did he get put in limbo like QDJ!?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 28, 2016, 02:12:49 pm
        A thought hit me today regarding this current take on Wakanda.  To us, it is a unique nation with a unique culture, unique identity, and so on.  We might have different visions of it, but we know it doesn't have the ills of modern Africa.

        Now whether Coates is just ignorant of what its history means or he views the traditional view as simplistic, unrealistic or even childish, I don't know, but he created a this harsher more "real-world" vision of Wakanda. 
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on April 28, 2016, 03:37:17 pm
        A thought hit me today regarding this current take on Wakanda.  To us, it is a unique nation with a unique culture, unique identity, and so on.  We might have different visions of it, but we know it doesn't have the ills of modern Africa.

        Now whether Coates is just ignorant of what its history means or he views the traditional view as simplistic, unrealistic or even childish, I don't know, but he created a this harsher more "real-world" vision of Wakanda.

        Coates has ZERO regard for BP enthusiasts or the mythos that most of us have appreciated for decades.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on April 28, 2016, 06:34:25 pm
        Quote
        According to Coates Twitter, it is Indeed Manifold, so he may become T'challa's Protege, and who knows, maybe then people of Wakanda won't have to worry about T'Challa leave as he can teleport right back, same the with excuse of him not being able to be in multiple teams.


        Also as its been said before. I get the reason to be pessimistic i really do, but we are literally 1 issue in with absolutely no idea on how this is gonna end up. Now im not saying trust in Coates and there are things im not too fond of, but I think he does want to write a good BP story and to do that you need a strong opening, a dramatic middle, and a satisfying ending and its gonna be tough for T'Challa but because this isn't a one and done story and Coates has signed on to write BP for a few years, you can't just have a bunch of stories of deconstruction eith no sign of clear cut victories and expect the book to do good, So yea i think this arc may be rough, but for Solo's the point is to elevate the character. So i mean to act like we know how this ends already is a bit premature..

        Jeez i feel like brother S.I. WHich btw where has he gone?? did he get put in limbo like QDJ!?            Ezyo

        The fact that we have no idea where this will all end up is irrelevant to the testimony given by the writer, what was shown in the first issue and the recent history of the Black Panther. For some reason the Panther seems lock-stepped with lackluster showings or no showings at all. I want a Coates to deliver a Panther that is a force to reckon with. I want to look forward to future issues.

        The promotion, the merchandising, Chadwick Boseman, CA Civil War, Ryan Coogler are all on point. The comic books by Coates and Ewing have all the momentum and potential. I just want to witness that potential actualized to the benefit of T'Challa the Black Panther, Wakanda and those who have consistently appreciated what the Black Panther symbolizes and finally those whom respect his iconic status.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on April 29, 2016, 07:07:41 pm
        @Kimoyo - At this junction in the Panther's 50 year comic book career the only thing certain is the deconstruction of T'Challa and Wakanda. The use of a diarchal, triarchal, hell even an omniarchal would only service this end.

        @ Sal - that article revealed that Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man. Panther again receives sloppy seconds. I wonder if Coates were writing Spider-Man if he would have injected Spiderman's reluctance at being an unappreciated superhero? Would he have dealt with the human trafficing in New York city. Would he have written two gay men dealing with so called homophobia with violence and would he have been heralded for doing such? Well maybe Coates will pull a Priest.


        With some exceptions all these past decades we witnessed writers hedging the Black Panther's potential. Writing an inefficacious king who does not dispense justice, emprisonment or capitol punishment to those most deserving. I cite Zemo, the KKK, the Supremacists, the nation of Azania, Anton Petorius, Apartheid South Africa, Doom, Red Skull, Namor and Thanos. Get the picture.Nothing but fodder for a new writer of Coates' pedigree.

        Instead however, we must contend with a writer who finds justification in fabricating tales of a reluctant king whose nation tolerates the abuse of women and human trafficking.

        Are we going to witness yet another highjacking of the Black Panther's comic book, the usurpation of T'Challa as we did with Everett K. Ross, Kasper Cole, Shuri and now by Ayo and Aneka? First it was argued for a white narrator, then a bi-racial protagonist, next a woman, now two lesbians. Where is the argument for T'Challa the Black Panther?


        To me, Reginald Hudlin will always remain the only writer to chronicle the Black Panther Mythos in a manner that was focused, dedicated and straight up unapologetically BLACK.

        There was ZERO ambiguity in Hudlin's take on the mythos and for that, I will always remain grateful.

        Coates is no friend to the Black Panther mythos.

        Brothers, I think Kip may have been exactly right, way back when, in saying T'Challa and Wakanda's deconstruction was all but a foregone conclusion simply because of their record, unconquered and unconquerable for all of their history.  A "Superman" of societies the more visible T'Challa and Wakanda would become, the more likely someone was going to want to screw with 'em.  We all know stories require drama to be marketable.  The hope after years of mischaracterization and deconstruction is that, as with previous creators of color, a creative team that looks more like T'Challa and most of us, could at least restore some of the pride-inducing luster a life lead as a person of color would seemingly demand, right?  I don't know what's to come exactly, but I'm just not ready to assume the worst after 1 issue and a whole lot of spoilers.  After the previous 3 or 4 years, actually more, I'm willing to give Coates and Stelfreeze 4 issues to tell the first of their stories and hope they don't let us down.  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on April 30, 2016, 09:43:41 am
        @Kimoyo - At this junction in the Panther's 50 year comic book career the only thing certain is the deconstruction of T'Challa and Wakanda. The use of a diarchal, triarchal, hell even an omniarchal would only service this end.

        @ Sal - that article revealed that Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man. Panther again receives sloppy seconds. I wonder if Coates were writing Spider-Man if he would have injected Spiderman's reluctance at being an unappreciated superhero? Would he have dealt with the human trafficing in New York city. Would he have written two gay men dealing with so called homophobia with violence and would he have been heralded for doing such? Well maybe Coates will pull a Priest.


        With some exceptions all these past decades we witnessed writers hedging the Black Panther's potential. Writing an inefficacious king who does not dispense justice, emprisonment or capitol punishment to those most deserving. I cite Zemo, the KKK, the Supremacists, the nation of Azania, Anton Petorius, Apartheid South Africa, Doom, Red Skull, Namor and Thanos. Get the picture.Nothing but fodder for a new writer of Coates' pedigree.

        Instead however, we must contend with a writer who finds justification in fabricating tales of a reluctant king whose nation tolerates the abuse of women and human trafficking.

        Are we going to witness yet another highjacking of the Black Panther's comic book, the usurpation of T'Challa as we did with Everett K. Ross, Kasper Cole, Shuri and now by Ayo and Aneka? First it was argued for a white narrator, then a bi-racial protagonist, next a woman, now two lesbians. Where is the argument for T'Challa the Black Panther?


        To me, Reginald Hudlin will always remain the only writer to chronicle the Black Panther Mythos in a manner that was focused, dedicated and straight up unapologetically BLACK.

        There was ZERO ambiguity in Hudlin's take on the mythos and for that, I will always remain grateful.

        Coates is no friend to the Black Panther mythos.

        Brothers, I think Kip may have been exactly right, way back when, in saying T'Challa and Wakanda's deconstruction was all but a foregone conclusion simply because of their record, unconquered and unconquerable for all of their history.  A "Superman" of societies the more visible T'Challa and Wakanda would become, the more likely someone was going to want to screw with 'em.  We all know stories require drama to be marketable.  The hope after years of mischaracterization and deconstruction is that, as with previous creators of color, a creative team that looks more like T'Challa and most of us, could at least restore some of the pride-inducing luster a life lead as a person of color would seemingly demand, right?  I don't know what's to come exactly, but I'm just not ready to assume the worst after 1 issue and a whole lot of spoilers.  After the previous 3 or 4 years, actually more, I'm willing to give Coates and Stelfreeze 4 issues to tell the first of their stories and hope they don't let us down.  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        I'm with you on this, though I'm going to give the full arc a Chance, because I personally hate not knowing how things end, despite the crap going on. I have to know what happens to T'Challa and Wakanda, I can't just drop it halfway through, plus I worry that if I do and count it out too soon I might miss a twist and jivj myself in the pants for dipping ok out early. But that's just me
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 01, 2016, 04:08:47 am
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 01, 2016, 09:56:36 pm
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.

        I understand. And to be honest I hope I'm right and your wrong. Not because of an I told you so moment, but because if I'm right then both of us end up benefiting from it and if your Right then we all lose
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 02, 2016, 05:11:50 am
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.

        I understand. And to be honest I hope I'm right and your wrong. Not because of an I told you so moment, but because if I'm right then both of us end up benefiting from it and if your Right then we all lose

        the sad thing is, you both can be right.  For Sals point, it's not just where BP ends, it's how he gets there.  For example, I heard from an insider in the industry that the editors of Wonder Woman often get these story-pitches where the writer wants to tell the story where Wonder Woman is brutalized (you know what I mean).  Now, someone could write such a story and receive acclaim (Like Killing Joke) but that doesn't mean someone should write the story because it forever would remain with the character.  So, yeah, BP could come out of this story stronger and more prominent then ever; but that doesn't mean this should have been the way, because no matter what happens, this is Wakanda now.  It is no longer as unique as it once was.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 02, 2016, 06:16:00 am
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.

        I understand. And to be honest I hope I'm right and your wrong. Not because of an I told you so moment, but because if I'm right then both of us end up benefiting from it and if your Right then we all lose

        the sad thing is, you both can be right.  For Sals point, it's not just where BP ends, it's how he gets there.  For example, I heard from an insider in the industry that the editors of Wonder Woman often get these story-pitches where the writer wants to tell the story where Wonder Woman is brutalized (you know what I mean).  Now, someone could write such a story and receive acclaim (Like Killing Joke) but that doesn't mean someone should write the story because it forever would remain with the character.  So, yeah, BP could come out of this story stronger and more prominent then ever; but that doesn't mean this should have been the way, because no matter what happens, this is Wakanda now.  It is no longer as unique as it once was.

        I couldn't have put it better myself Kip.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 02, 2016, 07:00:27 am
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.

        I understand. And to be honest I hope I'm right and your wrong. Not because of an I told you so moment, but because if I'm right then both of us end up benefiting from it and if your Right then we all lose

        the sad thing is, you both can be right.  For Sals point, it's not just where BP ends, it's how he gets there.  For example, I heard from an insider in the industry that the editors of Wonder Woman often get these story-pitches where the writer wants to tell the story where Wonder Woman is brutalized (you know what I mean).  Now, someone could write such a story and receive acclaim (Like Killing Joke) but that doesn't mean someone should write the story because it forever would remain with the character.  So, yeah, BP could come out of this story stronger and more prominent then ever; but that doesn't mean this should have been the way, because no matter what happens, this is Wakanda now.  It is no longer as unique as it once was.

        The only reason I'm more on a wait and see what happens stance is because at the very least the story is addressing issues that have to do with continuity. I would HOPE that by the end of this, T'Challa and Wakanda come out looking like the incredible badass, don't mess with us unless you want to get burned, glory again. So that these uprising stories do not get told for a long time. I hate them. Every fan hates them, because there have been so many over bos history and its gotten old.

        So I'm hoping Coates oays attention to what hebis doing and doesn't zap away cool things from the mythos. I hope he treats BP the same way Priest and Hudlin did before him. With T'Challa and Wakanda being elevated to bee heights with solid clear cut victories
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 02, 2016, 01:45:23 pm
        I'll be keeping up with Coates material but, that doesn't mean that I'll be paying to read his debasement/derailment of the BP mythos.

        I understand. And to be honest I hope I'm right and your wrong. Not because of an I told you so moment, but because if I'm right then both of us end up benefiting from it and if your Right then we all lose

        the sad thing is, you both can be right.  For Sals point, it's not just where BP ends, it's how he gets there.  For example, I heard from an insider in the industry that the editors of Wonder Woman often get these story-pitches where the writer wants to tell the story where Wonder Woman is brutalized (you know what I mean).  Now, someone could write such a story and receive acclaim (Like Killing Joke) but that doesn't mean someone should write the story because it forever would remain with the character.  So, yeah, BP could come out of this story stronger and more prominent then ever; but that doesn't mean this should have been the way, because no matter what happens, this is Wakanda now.  It is no longer as unique as it once was.

        The only reason I'm more on a wait and see what happens stance is because at the very least the story is addressing issues that have to do with continuity. I would HOPE that by the end of this, T'Challa and Wakanda come out looking like the incredible badass, don't mess with us unless you want to get burned, glory again. So that these uprising stories do not get told for a long time. I hate them. Every fan hates them, because there have been so many over bos history and its gotten old.

        So I'm hoping Coates oays attention to what hebis doing and doesn't zap away cool things from the mythos. I hope he treats BP the same way Priest and Hudlin did before him. With T'Challa and Wakanda being elevated to bee heights with solid clear cut victories


        Based on Coates numerous statements made in multiple interviews, it's highly unlikely that channeling Priest's/Hudlin's take on T'Challa is something Coates is invested or interested in doing.

        I'm just glad that the Hickman/Coates version of T'Challa didn't make it onto the big screen via Captain America:Civil War.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 02, 2016, 07:15:53 pm
        The only reason I'm more on a wait and see what happens stance is because at the very least the story is addressing issues that have to do with continuity. I would HOPE that by the end of this, T'Challa and Wakanda come out looking like the incredible badass, don't mess with us unless you want to get burned, glory again. So that these uprising stories do not get told for a long time. I hate them. Every fan hates them, because there have been so many over bos history and its gotten old.

        Repeating stories is commonplace in comics.  How many times has Spider-man had money problems?  How many times has the Joker escaped Arkam? How many times....?  Part of the problem is we fans aren't supposed to stick around this long.  Comics were originally designed with an audience that replaces itself every five years.  So, the fact that the story repeats over and over wasn't a big deal, because to the new audience it is fresh.  (Which by the way is a factor here.  Marvel isn't aiming this book at us who have been reading BP for years; they're aiming this book at a completely new audience that has never read about an uprising in Wakanda. And let's face it, if Marvel lost 10,000 old BP fans with Coates but gained 20,000 new fans; Marvel would be happy.) The other issue is that while to us it is repetitive, to the writer, it is something brand new that he's never written before.  So, it is very possible that the next writer that comes along, will write another story with another uprising and proclaim it is new and different, because to him (or her) it is.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 02, 2016, 09:00:28 pm
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8TSIZx4aQ&lc=z12ee5bzlwu5cva3q22vyfwotzuqi14tr (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8TSIZx4aQ&lc=z12ee5bzlwu5cva3q22vyfwotzuqi14tr)

        Sorry for my absence, brethren. I have been cranking up my training. Lots of things have been poppin off round my way, and in a bit of good news...my business has been rapidly expanding. I will read this thread and get back at everyone tomorrow or the day after.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 02, 2016, 09:17:05 pm
        Quote
        I'm just glad that the Hickman/Coates version of T'Challa didn't make it onto the big screen via Captain America:Civil War. Salutrade

        Let's hope not. The one thing I do find absent in the previews, write ups and spoilers is reference to the Black Panther's great intellect. Come Friday we will all know.

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChEapmsWIAMDazy.jpg:large)

        For my tastes this iteration of the Black Panther in the pages of his own comic book would have been better served by overwriting or ignoring the incredulous circumstances credited to T'Challa by disingenuous writers. As all eyes are now on the Black Panther and Wakanda thus there is no better time to introduce them at their best. You only get one time to make a good first impression.

        A premiere that weaves its tale through a tour of Wakanda; flash back:, the Nigandan boarder region where the Black Panther is single handedly defeating a small battalion of well armed and equipped Nigandan soldiers, end of flash back; we get to visit the Crystal City in the frozen forest region where Queen Divine Justice rules with consort Vibraxis and  M'Baku being her grand vizier and mentor. We witness her ongoing debate with the White Guerrilla on regressive technology and her discomfort with such as they prepare to attend the parliament meeting.

        Next we go to N'Jadaka city where political discussion are being held in favor of N'Jadaka city being named the capitol of the Wakandas. Arguments are heard in favor of Killmonger leading the Wakandas since they were not even remotely damaged by either Namor's flood nor Thanos' attack. Killmonger himself is seen leaving to attend parliament. Flash back: T'Challa is seen tracking the spirit of the woman who instigated the boarder dispute.end of flash back.

        Finally the we enter Golden City home of the worlds greatest merger of spiritual science and technological advancement. Ruling as King of all the Wakandas is T'Challa the Black Panther,sitting center in the grand parliament; his regent and sister Shuri aka Wild Cat, the CEO of WDG; Queen mother Ramonda; T'challa's two Dora Mila, Okoye and Aneka; the Midnight Angels commander in chieftess Ayo; Hunter  the White Panther, chieftain of the Hatut Zeraze and his protege' Casper Cole the Ghost Panther; the 18 tribal counsel ministers representing the three dozen indigenous Wakandan tribes and the male and female ancestral Black Panthers are all seated around him.

        T'Challa's representative presents evidence on how the western powers exaggerated the damage and casualties caused by Namor's inundation and that Thanos has been located by the collaborative efforts of the WDG and the Ultimates. He further espouses how T'Challa himself will lead the team to capture Thanos and serve him Wakandan justice. The rep goes on to explain how T'Challa designed and had constructed the cloaked Wakandan vessel T'Chaka's A.R.C which saved the entire Wakandan populace during the collapse of the multiverse.

        Shuri explains how she was never accepted by Bast and only held office of Queen regent and not chieftess of the Panther clan. Aneka states that the female army is called the Midnight Angels and only the two queen wives to be are the Dora Milaje. Aneka then offers up her resignation to the Dora Milaje and asks to serve as a Midnight Angel.

        Killmonger makes his bid for Black Panther especially since he never legitimately lost the title. He calls for a democratic system to be installed and demands a vote take place. T'Chaka apologizes and states that even as an ancestor his son's foresight far exceeds his own. He welcomes T'Challa as King of the Dead. The other Panther ancestors declare T'Challa the greatest Black Panther of them all. Final order of business is that Wakanda's deep space satellites are tracking a Skrull armada heading to earth.

        Final flash back: T'Challa is in his subterranean techno jungle talking to Ororo. He says "all is in ready." She says "I hope so. We have sacrificed so much for so long, perhaps too much." He replies "None the less we shall do what we have to." They embrace then kiss. end of flash back.

        My idea of a fist issue.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 02, 2016, 09:27:42 pm
        Welcome back SI.

        We've Missed You.

        (http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/5993/911952-smith.jpg)

        [
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 02, 2016, 09:43:13 pm
        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChbFqiWUUAEjurp.jpg)

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChbFqhSUoAABwOT.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 03, 2016, 04:48:55 am
        Quote
        I'm just glad that the Hickman/Coates version of T'Challa didn't make it onto the big screen via Captain America:Civil War. Salutrade

        Let's hope not. The one thing I do find absent in the previews, write ups and spoilers is reference to the Black Panther's great intellect. Come Friday we will all know.


        In a show with so many characters and so much going on, I wouldn't take it as a negative if we don't see his great intellect.  This is just a taste; it's in his own movie where that and all his abilities should shine.  (I'm not saying we won't, just saying, we might not get to see all of BP's abilities in this movie.)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 03, 2016, 07:22:47 am
        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChbFqiWUUAEjurp.jpg)

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChbFqhSUoAABwOT.jpg)


        That is sooooo doooope, brutha Ture!!
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 03, 2016, 07:58:02 am
        Welcome back SI.

        We've Missed You.

        ([url]http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/5993/911952-smith.jpg[/url])

        [



        Missed you too, bruthas! Missed the HEF!!

        (https://i.imgflip.com/wos4e.jpg)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Vic Vega on May 03, 2016, 12:12:43 pm
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8TSIZx4aQ&lc=z12ee5bzlwu5cva3q22vyfwotzuqi14tr (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV8TSIZx4aQ&lc=z12ee5bzlwu5cva3q22vyfwotzuqi14tr)

        Sorry for my absence, brethren. I have been cranking up my training. Lots of things have been poppin off round my way, and in a bit of good news...my business has been rapidly expanding. I will read this thread and get back at everyone tomorrow or the day after.

        Congrats, and Welcome Back!
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 03, 2016, 12:27:02 pm
        Welcome back Honored Brother Supreme! It has been while and great to hear success in your Ventures. I look forward to great discussions in the future.


        So this is also why i am on a wait and see what happens Courtesy of the CBR forums:

        Quote from: Kasper Cole;1984248
        [Video]https://vimeo.com/165181590[/Video]

        Why does this video seem so much more positive than all the interviews I've been reading? He's saying some of the same things, but it doesn't have the "burn it all down" tone that the interviews have had.

        It's also the first time I've heard him say anything about T'Challa having a plan. Everything before now has been about how The Dora Milaje are going to save Wakanda.


        Quote from: Realdealholy;1984294
        That vid appears to be part of a video series to ease in new readers, apparently.

        [url]http://www.fastcocreate.com/3059502/marvel-kicks-off-video-series-to-ease-in-new-readers-starting-with-black-panther?utm_content=buffer4d806&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/url] ([url]http://www.fastcocreate.com/3059502/marvel-kicks-off-video-series-to-ease-in-new-readers-starting-with-black-panther?utm_content=buffer4d806&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer[/url])

        More vids to come, I guess.


        [/b][/size]
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 03, 2016, 07:21:14 pm
        Marvel Kicks Off Video Series To Ease In New Readers, Starting With Black Panther

        With superstar writer Ta-Nehisi Coates behind the comic, and a movie on the way, now’s the time to learn about the man known as T’Challa.

        (http://b.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/1280/poster/2016/05/3059502-poster-1280-black-panther-marvel-comic.jpg)

        Marvel grabbed some international headlines when it announced that its relaunched Black Panther title, following the "All-New, All-Different" reboot of its line, would be helmed by National Book Award winner and superstar Atlantic columnist Ta-Nehisi Coates. And the first issue, which was released last month, earned that attention—the debut was a confident, assured story of the inner workings of the nation of Wakanda and its superheroic leader, T’Challa.

        But if all of that sounds a little confusing—where the eff is Wakanda, and how does anybody pronounce "T’Challa"?—Marvel’s got you: To accompany each issue of the title, they’re launching a video series in which Coates explains the world of Black Panther. The first episode—which launches today—gives a basic primer: The background on the fictional African nation of Wakanda, and how its ruler doubles as a super-scientist and a superhero.

        Future installments can go further in-depth, creating a "previously on" effect that helps serve as a way in for fans intrigued by Coates’s participation—or by Chadwick Boseman’s interpretation of the character in Captain America; Civil War and the Panther’s own forthcoming solo film.


        (http://a.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-sidebar/inline/2016/05/3059502-inline-3058191-inline-i-2-check-out-an-early-look-at-marvels-black-panther-relaunch-stelfreeze.png)

        It’s an interesting prospect for comics. Stan Lee famously said that "every comic book is somebody’s first" as a reminder that these things need to be accessible, and anything that makes ongoing titles with a whole lot of history easier for new readers to pick up and get immediately is a good idea. Using some light animation, a hip hop score, and an overview from Coates himself is a clever way to market the book to people who might just be waiting for an extra push to find out what the future holds for Black Panther.

        http://www.fastcocreate.com/3059502/marvel-kicks-off-video-series-to-ease-in-new-readers-starting-with-black-panther?utm_content=buffer4d806&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.fastcocreate.com/3059502/marvel-kicks-off-video-series-to-ease-in-new-readers-starting-with-black-panther?utm_content=buffer4d806&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)


        Marvel's marketing strategy and promotion for the Black Panther is off da chain.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on May 03, 2016, 07:33:24 pm
        Welcome back Brother S.I.!  Ture, superb revisioning of events!  Love the idea of Kasper as "Ghost Panther!"  Exciting news about video series for marketing, all on the eve of "Civil War!" Exciting indeed!

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 03, 2016, 08:12:19 pm
        Welcome back Brother S.I.!  Ture, superb revisioning of events!  Love the idea of Kasper as "Ghost Panther!"  Exciting news about video series for marketing, all on the eve of "Civil War!" Exciting indeed!

        Peace,

        Mont

        Thanks Kimoyo. I know HEF is gonna have some good talks come this weekend after some of us have seen CA:CW. I see Ezyo has beat me to it, however here is a link to Marvel's promo for new readers. https://vimeo.com/165181590

        Also much respect to Ezyo and Sal for the way they conducted themselves over at CBR.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on May 03, 2016, 08:51:00 pm
        Awesome!  And BPAW May 2 - 6.  Love it!

        Thanks,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 04, 2016, 04:55:58 am
        It’s an interesting prospect for comics. Stan Lee famously said that "every comic book is somebody’s first" as a reminder that these things need to be accessible, and anything that makes ongoing titles with a whole lot of history easier for new readers to pick up and get immediately is a good idea. Using some light animation, a hip hop score, and an overview from Coates himself is a clever way to market the book to people who might just be waiting for an extra push to find out what the future holds for Black Panther.


        On one level, yeah, but on another level--you really shouldn't have to do homework to understand a comic.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 04, 2016, 01:47:57 pm
        It’s an interesting prospect for comics. Stan Lee famously said that "every comic book is somebody’s first" as a reminder that these things need to be accessible, and anything that makes ongoing titles with a whole lot of history easier for new readers to pick up and get immediately is a good idea. Using some light animation, a hip hop score, and an overview from Coates himself is a clever way to market the book to people who might just be waiting for an extra push to find out what the future holds for Black Panther.


        On one level, yeah, but on another level--you really shouldn't have to do homework to understand a comic.

        In normal cases thats true, However, since Marvel is  shared universe and a character can appearing in several different stories at once, it kinda helps if you can get a guide to show what the character has done and what not, for instance, there are some feats and scans showing them that BP has that i have never seen before and don't even know where to look to find them. Having something like that to point you in the right direction would be welcoming.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 05, 2016, 06:20:05 am
        Son of the Black Panther
        Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
        BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
        April 26, 2016


        This article has been edited.

        ... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

        The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/f3138a980a198c1149e87039a75325f7fb239d76.jpeg?w=400&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=615)

        Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

        There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

        Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/dfe561cde59e3c086804e843a9545e10b57186d6.jpeg?w=600&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=911)

        Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/5fb844c02521d1a93a28cc00d46f8c11c359cc52.tiff?w=800&q=65&dpi=1&h=618)

        While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

        If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

        Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

        The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

        One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

        A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

        Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

        Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

        Full unedited article here
        https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther


        GREAT ARTICLE TURE.

        it is disheartening a bit for myself and I'm sure others that Coates initially was interested in Spidey and not BP...hard to believe someone with his background wasn't excited at first about the prospect of working on T'Challa and Wakanda.

        As for the part "I surely will appreciate"...lol...the writer of this piece shows that Coates maybe had some motivation into writing a tale that had a focus on womanist/black feminist issues through Coates himself being criticized for not addressing how black women face racism and sexism in his initial essay work...and trying to bring about the "feminists of Wakanda" through characters like Zenzi (who I'm seeing as a radical Angela Davis archetype) and Aneka and Ayo (who represent a somewhat ignored demographic among black women and an opportunity to question the practice of the Dora...something Priest himself did in his run) provides an opportunity for that.  Though it can still be seen as questionable HOW he is going about it.

        the part about Storm still being the most prominent black female character in comics "decades after her debut" and the dearth of black women in comics prominently featured that the writer spoke on underscores my own point I made earlier on in convo with EmperorJones regarding this.  And even the black women characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on women/black womanist issues.

        People have spoken about Shuri before (can't believe the author misspelled her name) regarding how she is a strong female character, which she is, but having read some of her appearances before I don't recall her having dealt with these issues that could exist, but in a different way, of course, outside America. I could be wrong.  (The concept of the Dora Milaje, for instance, which I like, alone would raise an eyebrow to quite a few women overall, let alone feminist types)  It would likely be questionable to those looking for a woman character whom also is "woman-centered" that Shuri, for various reasons, would provide this.  It will be interesting to see how Coates handles her when he eventually brings her back.

        Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 05, 2016, 07:50:47 am
        Son of the Black Panther
        Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
        BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
        April 26, 2016


        This article has been edited.

        ... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

        The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/f3138a980a198c1149e87039a75325f7fb239d76.jpeg?w=400&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=615)

        Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

        There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

        Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/dfe561cde59e3c086804e843a9545e10b57186d6.jpeg?w=600&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=911)

        Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/5fb844c02521d1a93a28cc00d46f8c11c359cc52.tiff?w=800&q=65&dpi=1&h=618)

        While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

        If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

        Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

        The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

        One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

        A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

        Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

        Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

        Full unedited article here
        https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther


        GREAT ARTICLE TURE.

        it is disheartening a bit for myself and I'm sure others that Coates initially was interested in Spidey and not BP...hard to believe someone with his background wasn't excited at first about the prospect of working on T'Challa and Wakanda.

        As for the part "I surely will appreciate"...lol...the writer of this piece shows that Coates maybe had some motivation into writing a tale that had a focus on womanist/black feminist issues through Coates himself being criticized for not addressing how black women face racism and sexism in his initial essay work...and trying to bring about the "feminists of Wakanda" through characters like Zenzi (who I'm seeing as a radical Angela Davis archetype) and Aneka and Ayo (who represent a somewhat ignored demographic among black women and an opportunity to question the practice of the Dora...something Priest himself did in his run) provides an opportunity for that.  Though it can still be seen as questionable HOW he is going about it.

        the part about Storm still being the most prominent black female character in comics "decades after her debut" and the dearth of black women in comics prominently featured that the writer spoke on underscores my own point I made earlier on in convo with EmperorJones regarding this.  And even the black women characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on women/black womanist issues.

        People have spoken about Shuri before (can't believe the author misspelled her name) regarding how she is a strong female character, which she is, but having read some of her appearances before I don't recall her having dealt with these issues that could exist, but in a different way, of course, outside America. I could be wrong.  (The concept of the Dora Milaje, for instance, which I like, alone would raise an eyebrow to quite a few women overall, let alone feminist types)  It would likely be questionable to those looking for a woman character whom also is "woman-centered" that Shuri, for various reasons, would provide this.  It will be interesting to see how Coates handles her when he eventually brings her back.

        Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see.


        Several things real quick. This last from A.Curry: "Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see."--A. CURRY

        ...is an issue for me, too. I really don't think that we have a lot of reason to be up in arms with essentially one book in the can, and the other coming out this month. However, that comment about Coates' position regarding the legendary Queen Ginga [ miscalled frequently Nzinga; however, Ginga wrote her name as "Ginga" on lasting documents which she wrote in Portuguese with her own hand, during exchanges with the King of Portugal who never learned to speak Queen Ginga's language ] is very problematic for me. Ngolo Ginga of Ndongo and Matamba is likely my most favorite "modern" ruler...with Queen Teresa de Benguela and Ethiopian Emperor Menelik [ along with his outstanding Empress, Taytu Betul, who is probably the inspiration for the devastating victory over Ethiopia at the Battle of Adowa ]. Classic works like Dr. Chancellor Williams' DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION have made very clear that the Western mind totally misunderstands the defeat that the warriors who formed themselves into chairs for Ginga were eager to give to the Portuguese slaving idiots during the interplay of the mighty megagenius Ngolo Ginga with the Portuguese.

        The reality is that Ginga...sent to negotiate with the treacherous, racist, arrogant, haughty, puffed up Portuguese...was even then bargaining from a position of power. The Portuguese...offended to no end at the notion of having to concede anything to Afrikans [ whom they universally regarded as savages ]...refused to give Ginga a seat during negotiations. They were intent on delivering what in their culture and morals at the time was a studied insult, forcing her to stand before them as their lesser while they lounged at their leisure.

        Taking in the situation at a glance, Ginga's retinue and herself moved with a celerity that strongly implied foresight. They seemed to know that the idiot Portuguese would use that tactic...despite the fact that Ginga by herself could slay every single Portuguese man in the room with her. One of her many strong male warrior servants immediately formed himself into a seat, upon which she sat. In this way, she neutered the stupidity of the Portuguese. Ginga frequently arose from her perch upon her "human seat", not only to be sure to not tire out her loyal warriors upon whom she sat, but also because the other warriors in her retinue were eager to hand defeat to these Portuguese by ALSO being a "seat" for their Ngolo. Even if merely for a few minutes.

        The brain dead, insufferably arrogant, infinitely grasping greedy and immoral Portuguese translated this brilliant, heroic, intelligent act of Ginga and her warriors as some extreme barbarity showing how callous Gnga is. They spread the fiction that she was so horrible that she would abuse her "servants" to the extent of making them articles of furniture.

        This complaint from the Portuguese who, literally, did not look upon Afrikans as humans and who literally engaged in chattel slavery. Portuguese who literally inflicted upon Afrikans the barbarity that they falsely accused Ngolo Ginga of engaging in.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 05, 2016, 11:13:41 am
        Getting it to you guys straight over from the CBR Forums. Here is the Preview for Issue 2

        http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=1656833&postcount=2 (http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=1656833&postcount=2)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: True Father 7 on May 05, 2016, 01:36:35 pm
        Quote
        I'm just glad that the Hickman/Coates version of T'Challa didn't make it onto the big screen via Captain America:Civil War. Salutrade

        Let's hope not. The one thing I do find absent in the previews, write ups and spoilers is reference to the Black Panther's great intellect. Come Friday we will all know.

        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChEapmsWIAMDazy.jpg:large)

        I loved his characterization in the movie from his fighting style to the accent. Was very impressed by Chadwick Boseman but we don't need to get all that is great about T'challa in a Captain America movie, let's save the intellect and all that other good stuff for his own movie. I do think all BP fans will love the mid credits scene but for more about the movie can we PLEASE move it to the movie section on this board? I just posted about Civil War today
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: True Father 7 on May 05, 2016, 01:53:39 pm
        Getting it to you guys straight over from the CBR Forums. Here is the Preview for Issue 2

        [url]http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=1656833&postcount=2[/url] ([url]http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=1656833&postcount=2[/url])



        I am really not liking this series so far. Getting my Black Panther fix in Ultimates with Photon and Blue Marvel, baddest super hero team EVER!
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 05, 2016, 04:07:31 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 05, 2016, 11:19:17 pm
        That preview did absolutely nothing to dissaude my trepidation about Coates' iteration of the Black Panther. The dialogue was weak, the art not as sharp and to have such hienous acts occur on T'Challa's home turf screamed of Maberry. Is Coates is attempting to terraform Wakandan into Gotham or some analoge of a corrupt of Afrakan nation? Either way so far based on the preview it doesn't feel right. Next Wednesday tells the tale but for now let see how well BP is depicted in CACW.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 06, 2016, 05:13:04 am
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 06, 2016, 07:26:04 am
        That preview did absolutely nothing to dissaude my trepidation about Coates' iteration of the Black Panther. The dialogue was weak, the art not as sharp and to have such hienous acts occur on T'Challa's home turf screamed of Maberry. Is Coates is attempting to terraform Wakandan into Gotham or some analoge of a corrupt of Afrakan nation? Either way so far based on the preview it doesn't feel right. Next Wednesday tells the tale but for now let see how well BP is depicted in CACW.

        First i'll talk about what i liked, The introduction of some new characters in Hodari and Akili. I liked that the Hatut Zeraze might have a character with a name that can represent them and hopefully stays around past this Arc. I also like that the Hatut Zeraze are now apart of the royal family's elite force (thoguh it really makes me wonder who the warriors in red boots are and what organization they belong to.

        I also liked how Coates has continued off where Hudlin left in regards to kilmonger and that group he formed. I thought it was a wasted opportunity for there to be no follow up on what he was doing an its good to see Coates picking up where he left off. Its also good because it explains kinda where Zenzi came from as she was in that group of Kilmongers coalition and gives her more depth as a character. Kimoyo bands its just cool straight up. I know its not this huge thing but its cool the little things to show how Wakanda is so advance in their tech. Another thing is i wonder If That statement T'Challa made about being protected against psychics is going to bite him later on. I mean he has some pretty mean defense against it, and the feats to back it up so hopefully if he is surprised by her ability, its because she is just that strong of a psychic and not that he is being chumped, if that is even the case, we will see.

        What i didn't like was the Bandit compound was in Wakanda, i was hoping it would of been in Niganda because i don't really want Wakanda to have so much trafficking and rape being shown as a common place, yes they weren't royals but still, hopefully the majority of the men in this arc are not just shown as predators, abusers, rapist, against women and Children in order to prop the Doras up. as this is something i feel T'Challa wouldn't just e cool with those kinds of people in Wakanda, and I hope Coates doesn't portray it like only the Dora's care. Though i will say its giving off a netflix daredevil style showing of the Doras being akin to the Punisher so far. What they are doing is murder, but they are doing it only to the bad people who deserve it, just like in daredevil it will split people. Some will be in favor as they feel like the royal family isnt taking care of it and let it get out of hand (which is another thing altogether) and others who will be afraid as the Dora's are seen as a example of how to conduct oneself and are held at a higher standard.

        I don't think the art was bad at all, i thought it was very much on point, and the dialog from what we saw seemed fine, and im sure the writing and art will stay on point through the issue. Again i do agree that i do not like the portray of the men in the story thus far as being predators. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is getting into Mayberry territory though because how i see it, its still consistent with what Hudlin and Priest has shown in their runs in terms of revolts. This run especially the part with Nigandans and the execution pit seemed very much like something we could see happening and following up on from Hudlins run, given how he portrayed the people of Niganda is something i could see happening here.

        All in all there are some things i liked and things i didn't but Ultimately the issue will be the deciding factor
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 06, 2016, 11:29:59 am
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 07, 2016, 12:34:06 am
        That preview did absolutely nothing to dissaude my trepidation about Coates' iteration of the Black Panther. The dialogue was weak, the art not as sharp and to have such hienous acts occur on T'Challa's home turf screamed of Maberry. Is Coates is attempting to terraform Wakandan into Gotham or some analoge of a corrupt of Afrakan nation? Either way so far based on the preview it doesn't feel right. Next Wednesday tells the tale but for now let see how well BP is depicted in CACW.


        First i'll talk about what i liked, The introduction of some new characters in Hodari and Akili. I liked that the Hatut Zeraze might have a character with a name that can represent them and hopefully stays around past this Arc. I also like that the Hatut Zeraze are now apart of the royal family's elite force (thoguh it really makes me wonder who the warriors in red boots are and what organization they belong to.

        I also liked how Coates has continued off where Hudlin left in regards to kilmonger and that group he formed. I thought it was a wasted opportunity for there to be no follow up on what he was doing an its good to see Coates picking up where he left off. Its also good because it explains kinda where Zenzi came from as she was in that group of Kilmongers coalition and gives her more depth as a character. Kimoyo bands its just cool straight up. I know its not this huge thing but its cool the little things to show how Wakanda is so advance in their tech. Another thing is i wonder If That statement T'Challa made about being protected against psychics is going to bite him later on. I mean he has some pretty mean defense against it, and the feats to back it up so hopefully if he is surprised by her ability, its because she is just that strong of a psychic and not that he is being chumped, if that is even the case, we will see.

        What i didn't like was the Bandit compound was in Wakanda, i was hoping it would of been in Niganda because i don't really want Wakanda to have so much trafficking and rape being shown as a common place, yes they weren't royals but still, hopefully the majority of the men in this arc are not just shown as predators, abusers, rapist, against women and Children in order to prop the Doras up. as this is something i feel T'Challa wouldn't just e cool with those kinds of people in Wakanda, and I hope Coates doesn't portray it like only the Dora's care. Though i will say its giving off a netflix daredevil style showing of the Doras being akin to the Punisher so far. What they are doing is murder, but they are doing it only to the bad people who deserve it, just like in daredevil it will split people. Some will be in favor as they feel like the royal family isnt taking care of it and let it get out of hand (which is another thing altogether) and others who will be afraid as the Dora's are seen as a example of how to conduct oneself and are held at a higher standard.

        I don't think the art was bad at all, i thought it was very much on point, and the dialog from what we saw seemed fine, and im sure the writing and art will stay on point through the issue. Again i do agree that i do not like the portray of the men in the story thus far as being predators. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is getting into Mayberry territory though because how i see it, its still consistent with what Hudlin and Priest has shown in their runs in terms of revolts. This run especially the part with Nigandans and the execution pit seemed very much like something we could see happening and following up on from Hudlins run, given how he portrayed the people of Niganda is something i could see happening here.

        All in all there are some things i liked and things i didn't but Ultimately the issue will be the deciding factor



        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther21.jpg)
        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther22.jpg)

        Intro and graphics flawless.

        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther23.jpg)

        I really appreciate Coates giving an Afrakan name to the "Golden City" and look forward to the his naming the Necropolis. Mentionig Killmonger and his giving powers to those who will serve him was another nice touch.The Hotel Rwanda-esque pit full of bodies I could have done without. T'Challa prepped against mind control I can ride with as well as an Afrakan leader for the Hatut Zeraze. 

        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther24.jpg)

        Bandit compound where women are held hostage, sold and raped in Wakanda?!? No way I can go for that. It would have made perfect sense if this was happening in Nigandanda as a precedence was set for the possibility of such cruelty happening when Shuri was captured, held prisoner and a guard attempted to rape her.

        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther25.jpg)
        (http://buzzpreview.buzzcomics.net/2016-05/Marvel/blackpanther26.jpg)

        Are Aneka and Ayo the only ones who know how to deal withe perpetrators of such atrocities? Hell, T'Challa should be teaming up with them. What does this say about T"Challa or more accurately what is the author trying to say about the Black Panther? I want Coates to deliver and make this a standout comic book for the Black Panther especially at a time when so much attention is being shown to the character. I stand corrected on the artwork as I was viewing it on my phone, it looks just as sharp as the art in the previous issue.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Tanksleyd on May 07, 2016, 01:18:25 am
        We ******* have our way
        Why momma even hates the word...until the next joke
        But I gotta tell ya', when I come to a site for my 'Black relief', it hurts my eyes when I always see "Reparations"
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 07, 2016, 01:24:10 am
        Son of the Black Panther
        Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
        BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
        April 26, 2016


        This article has been edited.

        ... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

        The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/f3138a980a198c1149e87039a75325f7fb239d76.jpeg?w=400&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=615)

        Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

        There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

        Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/dfe561cde59e3c086804e843a9545e10b57186d6.jpeg?w=600&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=911)

        Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.

        (https://images.newrepublic.com/5fb844c02521d1a93a28cc00d46f8c11c359cc52.tiff?w=800&q=65&dpi=1&h=618)

        While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

        If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

        Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

        The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

        One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

        A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

        Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

        Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

        Full unedited article here
        https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther


        GREAT ARTICLE TURE.

        it is disheartening a bit for myself and I'm sure others that Coates initially was interested in Spidey and not BP...hard to believe someone with his background wasn't excited at first about the prospect of working on T'Challa and Wakanda.

        As for the part "I surely will appreciate"...lol...the writer of this piece shows that Coates maybe had some motivation into writing a tale that had a focus on womanist/black feminist issues through Coates himself being criticized for not addressing how black women face racism and sexism in his initial essay work...and trying to bring about the "feminists of Wakanda" through characters like Zenzi (who I'm seeing as a radical Angela Davis archetype) and Aneka and Ayo (who represent a somewhat ignored demographic among black women and an opportunity to question the practice of the Dora...something Priest himself did in his run) provides an opportunity for that.  Though it can still be seen as questionable HOW he is going about it.

        the part about Storm still being the most prominent black female character in comics "decades after her debut" and the dearth of black women in comics prominently featured that the writer spoke on underscores my own point I made earlier on in convo with EmperorJones regarding this.  And even the black women characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on women/black womanist issues.

        People have spoken about Shuri before (can't believe the author misspelled her name) regarding how she is a strong female character, which she is, but having read some of her appearances before I don't recall her having dealt with these issues that could exist, but in a different way, of course, outside America. I could be wrong.  (The concept of the Dora Milaje, for instance, which I like, alone would raise an eyebrow to quite a few women overall, let alone feminist types)  It would likely be questionable to those looking for a woman character whom also is "woman-centered" that Shuri, for various reasons, would provide this.  It will be interesting to see how Coates handles her when he eventually brings her back.

        Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see.

        The Afrakan (so called black) characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on Afrakan continental/diasporac sovereignty and unicity issues. The concern I have about  so called black women "issues" is that they are spoken of as if they are divorced from the inclusive  cultural dynamic that challenges Afrakan people regardless of ethnicity, age, socio-economic status, locale or gender.

        Shuri is not often written dealing with traditional cultural and political concerns that not only affect the continent but wherever Afrakan people exist in the world. Maberry even tried to make her in the image of someone akin to Paris Hilton. The penchant for ignoring traditional Afrakan culture is pervasive and often presupposes European and or American values as being preferable.

        For example the concept of the Dora Milaje may even be lauded by some women involved in co-wiving and sister wives relationships (a demographic of women/Afrakan women that are too often ignored, marginalized or ridiculed) as having the potential of being a triumph as such is so rarely seen in a positive light. Of course that means T'Challa would have to marry the two Dora Milaje.

        Whatever the case maybe, we will find out in the year to come.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 07, 2016, 09:38:41 am
        I gotta say brother Ture, I think what may be happening is something akin to Netflix season 2 daredevil how he acted and reacted to Frank castle aka punisher. so it will be interesting to see how this unfolds
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on May 08, 2016, 04:10:38 pm
        I think there is reason to hope Coates renders a more than palatable Black Panther/Wakanda; the attention to African language, history and custom for example, there could turn out to be quite a bit to like about his rendition.  I liked the way he said T'Challa has a plan.  However, there cannot be prolonged, unexplained out of character developments.  Coates will need to offer a plausible explanation for the actions of the chieftain Ayo killed and the actions of these rogue Wakandans of this camp in the northern region of the country and sooner rather than later.

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 09, 2016, 10:12:15 am
        That preview did absolutely nothing to dissaude my trepidation about Coates' iteration of the Black Panther. The dialogue was weak, the art not as sharp and to have such hienous acts occur on T'Challa's home turf screamed of Maberry. Is Coates is attempting to terraform Wakandan into Gotham or some analoge of a corrupt of Afrakan nation? Either way so far based on the preview it doesn't feel right. Next Wednesday tells the tale but for now let see how well BP is depicted in CACW.

        I agree with this...the dialogue really did come off as pedestrian and elementary...wonder if this could be attributed to Coates not really being a fiction or comics writer...I did have concern about him writing a comic as he is an essayist and not a novelist or comics writer.  The art did not seem as sharp to me either.

        Some stuff I read with Coates seems to suggest he may be trying to write a Wakanda post-trauma, one destabilized in various ways due to everything from Namor's flooding to the death of W'kabi and his Uncle to Doom's attack to the invasion of Thanos and the Black Order and Shuri's death.  Even so I agree showing a post-trauma Waknda that has some similarities to some other underdeveloped African nations with "L.R.A.-Boko Haram" type issues isn't the best way to go with a nation that is too socially developed to engage in such vicious and colonized acts.  But of course, these are real world issues he increasingly appears to feel compelled to address, which isn't a bad thing but again the HOW in a comic like this is still highly questionable.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: supreme illuminati on May 09, 2016, 11:39:50 am
        I think there is reason to hope Coates renders a more than palatable Black Panther/Wakanda; the attention to African language, history and custom for example, there could turn out to be quite a bit to like about his rendition.  I liked the way he said T'Challa has a plan.  However, there cannot be prolonged, unexplained out of character developments.  Coates will need to offer a plausible explanation for the actions of the chieftain Ayo killed and the actions of these rogue Wakandans of this camp in the northern region of the country and sooner rather than later.

        Peace,

        Mont


        Well said, Mont.

        However, how would you define "sooner, rather than later"? Before or by issue 4?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 09, 2016, 06:16:14 pm
        I imagine Coates may have some concerns...

        (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/0/0/1/ULTMTS2015008002s-proof-8fdd1.jpg)

        For the record... that woman is probably not a Dora Milaje, being clean shaven maybe a style that is popular in Wakanda; there is absolutely no issue with a female attendant presenting a meal to the king, as Shuri probably had male attendees serving her; just saying...

        The aesthetic quality of this picture demands an entire issue be dedicated to the uniqueness that is Wakanda.



        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on May 09, 2016, 06:47:55 pm
        I think there is reason to hope Coates renders a more than palatable Black Panther/Wakanda; the attention to African language, history and custom for example, there could turn out to be quite a bit to like about his rendition.  I liked the way he said T'Challa has a plan.  However, there cannot be prolonged, unexplained out of character developments.  Coates will need to offer a plausible explanation for the actions of the chieftain Ayo killed and the actions of these rogue Wakandans of this camp in the northern region of the country and sooner rather than later.

        Peace,

        Mont


        Well said, Mont.

        However, how would you define "sooner, rather than later"? Before or by issue 4?

        Thanks S.I.!  I miss the days when comics were by and large a series of stories concluded in a single monthly issue.  However, I appreciate the complexity of a more mature, thoughtfully developed story.  So I can get behind two and even four issue story arcs, but if it must be the latter, let's be on the way to resolving conflict such that there are monthly nuggets to enjoy on the way to a, not predictable, but somewhat intuitive and satisfying conclusion.  My two cents. 

        By the way, not to mix threads, but you know I'm dyin' to hear your assessment of T'Challa's fighting style in Civil War bruh!  Don't leave us hanging Supreme one!  8)

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 10, 2016, 04:28:41 pm
        New Entertainment Weekly article on BP coming soon.
        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiHTWvyVIAEFulk.jpg:large)

        Totally Awesome Hulk #10 cover
        (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cht8NcxWEAAINrR.jpg)

        http://youtu.be/WVqAnQe_xGw (http://youtu.be/WVqAnQe_xGw)

        courtesy of CBR's Dboi, Realdealholyand Nj06
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 10, 2016, 06:52:28 pm
        New Entertainment Weekly article on BP coming soon.
        ([url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiHTWvyVIAEFulk.jpg:large[/url])

        Totally Awesome Hulk #10 cover
        ([url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cht8NcxWEAAINrR.jpg[/url])

        [url]http://youtu.be/WVqAnQe_xGw[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/WVqAnQe_xGw[/url])

        courtesy of CBR's Dboi, Realdealholyand Nj06


        We seriously gotta get a cm to get realdealholy over here, he's been trying for awhile.

        Stelfreeze art is on point. Too, I would watch an animation based off his art akin to Hudlins run
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 11, 2016, 06:41:31 am
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 11, 2016, 12:08:07 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 11, 2016, 12:26:27 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

        I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

        Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

        I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 11, 2016, 01:30:42 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

        I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

        Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

        I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

        The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

        Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

        The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

        I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 11, 2016, 01:52:19 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

        I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

        Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

        I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

        The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

        Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

        The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

        I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

        Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

        Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

        Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.

        Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Salustrade on May 11, 2016, 03:23:49 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

        I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

        Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

        I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

        The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

        Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

        The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

        I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

        Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

        Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

        Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.


        Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.

        I was referring to some posters over on CBR.  :)
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 11, 2016, 03:37:17 pm
        When this series was announced, we knew Coates was dealing with the aftermath of recent attacks on Wakanda.  Those attacks were weakening the faith of the people in their royalty.  But those pages of the bandits camp... That is an indication that there is something rotten in Wakanda and it has been there for a long time, like for generations.  Those things don't just pop up over night.  It's not a king's failure to defend from the external, it's his failure to rule internally. 

        Coates could have written a story where the people were unhappy that their warrior-king failed to defend, without resorting to that camp.

        I wanted to follow-up my statement.  In a warrior culture, where the king holds his office by "trials by combat", it is logical that the people might start wondering about T'Challa and Shuri after their recent short-comings.  I could see very well, that some might see this as a time to challenge the king.  I could even see some people wondering if this form of government is best in this "Age of Marvels", but none of that requires what we saw.

        (And even blaming them for Thanos and the Phoenix Force attacks is really short-sighted of the people.  Thanos has obliterated entire civilizations more technologically advance than Wakanda and warrior races that number more than the entire earth with far greater ease than Wakanda gave and apparently, Wakanda survived.  Thanos is a being who could hold his own against Odin (when he wasn't even trying to hurt Odin).  The Phoenix Force (even at 1/5th power level) is even more powerful than Thanos, and Wakanda survived.  No other nation on earth could have done so.  Really, those battles are hard because they scared the nation, but they survived what no one else could have.)


        ^^^This post and the post of my esteemed HEF brethren taken in aggregate lead me to also voice concern and frankly a rather sharp dislike of the perception that Coates has of Wakanda, the nation, and her people as a whole.

        I mean...I get it. The Perfect Nation Trope absolutely sucks for a writer. In my fanfic...which also deals immediately with the afteraffect of Killmonger, in Chapter 1...I point out that Wakanda isn't perfect, by a long shot. In fact, her unmitigated superiority springs from the unique equilibrium attained and maintained by her 12 major ethnic groups.

        But THIS is HORRIBLE. I mean...that Bandit Camp? Hell no. That's Rwanda without the genocide. There is no way. None. That the people of Wakanda and the Security Forces of Wakanda would allow such a thing to exist. TChalla wouldn't even have to devote his own personal energy to such a thing, because the very formative and perpetuating factors of Wakandan civilization eliminate such outrages. The cultural and spiritual reserves of the nation permanently. And completely. Prevents such things from being even remotely possible.

        Again. I definitely like many of the things that Coates has done with TChalla. I am not worried that Coates will do TChalla specifically and personally wrong.

        I definitely do not like what Coates has done with this Bandit Camp in Wakanda, and I dislike how TChalla says that his warriors would fall prey to this mysterious woman's powers of the mind. I don't think that such a thing is plausible under these circumstances, given the fact that TChalla has already faced and defeated the likes of Somberr, Karnaj, Cruel, and a whole host of magic slinging baddies native to Wakanda.

        Furthermore, during the 4 issue arc dealing with Solomon Preyy, the story noted specifically that Wakanda has a mesh of tech, magic and perhaps psi and/or Ka as the energy powering its basic tech expression. Our own R to the H specified in his record breaking first year that Wakandans view science and magic as being expressions of the same continuum [ this was the issue dealing with The Cannibal taking and changing hosts in Wakanda ]. Brother Voodoo was talking to a Wakandan Master when this exchange happened.

        I take the combination of the above to mean that literally all of the warriors of The Golden City and to a lesser extent all of Wakanda are protected against primary psi, magic, Ka and tech attacks including involuntary compulsion to a respectable degree...and of course ALL of the Royals are FAR BETTER PROTECTED than the average citizen.

        So I fail to see how ole girl can be such a threat to everyone in Wakanda except TChalla...unless ole girl is rockin near Omega level mental powers. And even then? A Wakandan Inhibitor Field would ruin her day...and her powers. Such Fields would be erected over and/or between many areas of Wakanda, as a routine and formidable method of security used for millenia, now. Such Fields and a myriad of multilayered interlocking synergistically amplifying security measures would be long added to Wakanda's already especially formidable interior defenses. Interior defenses which, let us not forget, even Maberry wrote made Wakanda essentially invulnerable to assault from any exterior military force.

        Yes, I know that there needs to be a good in-story reason to explain why the King of Wakanda would risk himself one on one against this woman, but...that right there is a weak weak reason.

        The in-story reason should arise from especially formidable responses by a very intelligent, very prepared, very dedicated small group of [ whatever ole girl and her homie's name is ] native Wakandans headed by the primary villains in this opening arc. to Off top, I would say that ole girl was of course a native Wakandan, she was helped to escape detection by Nakia and Killmonger, was aided  wreaking havoc by her male partner, etc.

        Although it's way too soon to draw strong conclusions...it's only issue 2, and it's Beginning Writer 101 to play withthe plot construction and unspooling that Coates is playing with now...I definitely am not loving what I see of Coates' depiction of Wakanda. It's...jarring, and definitely unpleasant. I mean...the average woman of Wakanda is a warrior, too. The whole freakin society and civilization top to bottom are all formidable warriors and Olympic caliber athletes whose collective intellgence average is higher than anything we find in allegedly elite IQ groups like MENSA. Seeing this Rwanda-like repulsiveness smacks strongly of a distinct rejection of some of the seminal aspects of what makes Wakanda..."Wakanda". The Golden City. The hope, beacon, light and leader of humanity.

        While again...I am not worried about TChalla himself under Coates' pen, I expect Coates to keep doing a good job overall regarding TChalla specifically...when it comes to many matters involving Wakanda?  I expected more at this very early point in the story from a writer of Coates' caliber.


        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?


        Some people are on that Coates Koolaid to such a degree that he can write T'Challa and Wakanda into the ground, and some readers will still be hailing him as a BP writer per excellence.

        I don't know if I'd say he's on the Coates Kool-Aid...supreme seems to be concerned and has a somewhat negative view about how Coates is writing Wakanda, but separating that from how he's handling T'Challa...I'm guessing Salustrade that your viewpoint in regards to my question is that writing Wakanda in a negative light mirrors how Panther is seen as well?  Or do you think Coates is writing T'Challa specifically bad as well?

        Funny enough, I stopped by to see reactions to the latest issue...I personally found it better than the first and Panther definitely saw some action though some things regarding the issues with Wakanda is still and increasingly problematic as I'm sure most will find.  There also is definitely a "feminist" push going through centering around the two Dora, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got there own series after this...lol.  But as I said, the topics Coates is trying to address in this kinda seems misplaced within the backdrop and continuing  mythos of Wakanda.

        I also agree that a Wakanda that has these things going on within it even post trauma DOES reflect negatively on T'Challa himself.  An explanation would have to be given why the things shown have been happening under his nose.

        The Koolaid reference was in no way directed towards Supreme Illuminati whohas as you have stated, expressed a level of discomfort with what Coates is doing that more or less in line with concerns most of us have raised thus far.

        Having read BP #2, it's pretty obvious to me that Coates fully intends to keep pushing the Wakandan Boko Haram trope as a way to provide a platform for the equal push of a  strong feminist agenda within the book.

        The fact that there have never been any gender based problems evident throughout the BP mythos (prior to Coates) seems to have been lost on the writer.

        I've found your assessement of Coates output in this regard, to be spot on.

        Okay, I gathered he was the only person you could've been referring to since he did say he trusted Coates in his handling of T'Challa specifically, just not Wakanda, in that post you copied, and probably because of the strong disagreements you've had about Hickman before...Plus for various reasons I didn't think you meant that for me. Not sure who "some people" are than.

        Because if that referred to me it's a highly questionable assessment since 1: the question I posed to supreme that you highlighted was in no way giving positive credit to Coates but bringing up the overall objective question on whether or not writing Wakanda in this negative light reflects on T'Challa negatively as well, as Supreme seemed to be in his assessment separating Coates handling of the two...and 2: I've stated in recent posts over the last few pages that HOW Coates is going about doing this and involving this LRA/Boko Haram thing in the mythos of Wakanda and within its borders is a mistake...as I've even said Wakandan society is too evolved to have these particular and ugly issues...even post trauma.

        Or maybe you were referring to other fans elsewhere.


        Either way, glad we agree on my assessment of Coates output in the regard you spoke of.

        I was referring to some posters over on CBR.  :)

        okay...

        I actually think the issues Coates is trying to address would have made more sense and not be as damaging to T"Challa nor Wakanda if these issues were happening outside of Wakanda and The Dora were bringing attention to how Wakanda as a beacon of Africa should extend its might and example outside of its borders and deal with some of the horrible sh*t happening in certain parts of the continent.  Of course that would lead to interfering in other nations and make Wakanda be viewed as a "rogue" nation ignoring UN protocols and getting too involved in other countries' politics...and could also lead to dealing with foreign nations who historically and most likely currently have had a hand in the destabilization of african nations...but that might be too big, too political, and too close to home so to speak of a story to tell.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Kimoyo on May 11, 2016, 07:19:13 pm
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Blanks on May 11, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
        Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

        This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

        I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: True Father 7 on May 11, 2016, 08:27:26 pm
        Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

        This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

        I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

        agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 12, 2016, 05:49:23 am
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2016, 08:25:49 am
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?

        Excellent points. I think its a combo of things. ther have been people of less moral fiber bringing things into Wakanda, such as back in the day the drug traffiking, and though what we are seeing now is new, and more akin to real world issue going on now, I agree now may not have been the best time to showcase this in Wakanda. It was mentioned over at the CBR forums but posters there were talking about how the story could have a similar premise but instead of all this stuff going on in Wakanda, have it happening in a neighboring nation and the issue is whether or not Wakanda should get involved, with the Dora's doing excatly what they are doing right now, but it happening to Nigandan bandits, and leaders in power, rather then Wakanda, and T'Challa trying to find the best course of action while not trying to make it seem like Wakanda is going rogue to the UN or other nations. But of course thats not what we have but it could of been a good alternative.

        Also:
        I think they are apart of the People. I think the point is that Tetu wants to first have Zenzi fan the flames in the hearts of the Wakandan people, then when they are going wild and violence and trafficking rings and such "The People" are going to come in as saviors (while also probably being the ones behind the scenes assisting this Jambazi Tribe with their traffiking ring), providing a safe haven for the citizens ushering them away from the bandits as a way of putting themselves in a better light. So when T'Challa comes in and starts smashing faces, they don't see it as their king coming to their aid, but as a tyrant crushing their hope of protection from the violence and rape from the Bandits and Jambazi.

        Thats my theory. I think they are Tetu's men Especially since Zenzi was there. I wouldn't think she would go somewhere without some protection despite her power

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Wakandan on May 12, 2016, 08:52:22 am
        Greetings all. New to these parts, so please, go easy on me  ;D. Spoilers on the way as well.

        Read issues 1 and 2 back to back. Good story overall. Stelfreeze's art and Martin's colors are definitely on point. Overall, I do feel that the Midnight Angels are well-done as of now. Also, Shuri's journey is probably the biggest hook to me at the moment. I'm very curious on how things go on that end.

        However, I'm very concerned with the portrayal of T'Challa and Wakanda.

        In issue 2 in particular, T'Challa decides--foolishly, imho--to embark in a mission by himself in the midst of everything going on in the country. He not only misdiagnosed Zenzi's powers, but didn't seem to have a backup plan in case he did. This version of T'Challa, so far, is rather reckless and appears somewhat out-of-touch. Perhaps thats what Coates is going for, but I'm not sure that's the right direction to go in terms of elevating the characters. Struggles are fine, but I feel there are ways to make characters struggle in ways that are still in character. T'Challa has gone through a lot of struggles in the past 5-6 years. It's imperative that he finally gets some concrete wins, especially in his own book.

        My biggest concern, however, involves the portrayal of Wakanda (which is tied indirectly to T'Challa as well). Already, we've had a chieftain committing vile acts to women...and apparently, no one did anything about until Aneka stepped in. Now we have human trafficking rings going on in Wakanda...and again, no one, not the people or even the government, has done anything about it, until the Midnight Angels stepped in. We also learn via dialogue between Aneka and Ayo that there are even more corrupt chieftains out there, many of them under the eye of the crown.

        Wakanda obviously isn't a Utopia, and as a result, there will be crime of some kind. I was even willing to suspend disbelief about the chieftain in issue #1, under the assumption that he was the exception, not necessarily the rule. However, we're not seeing that he isn't the exception, that there are more like him. Furthermore, there's even more mischief at a high level going on (human trafficking) in parts of Wakanda...and yet the Wakandan government isn't doing much--if anything--about it.

        That part, I find really hard to believe. I seriously doubt that any of the characters who have been charge as of late--T'Challa, Shuri, Ramonda, etc--would even tolerate such a thing going on. More importantly, I also strongly doubt that they would turn a blind eye to it.

        Such things going on under the current rule is a poor reflection of the monarchy as an institution, T'Challa as a ruler, and Wakanda as a nation. Wakanda surely has flaws like any other nation, but historically Wakanda, at least in my opinion, has been different, especially in terms of leadership. It's in big part because of the Black Panthers that Wakanda has managed to maintain its culture, autonomy, its technological advancements, and so on. So to read that apparently all of this is going on under the watch of a Black Panther--T'Challa in particular--is not a good look. It makes one wonder how long have these things been going on for. If it isn't a recent thing, then how did things deteriorate so quickly? And why isn't anything done about it?

        Coates obviously has a premise he wants to follow through, but surely he could've found another way to make it work, without having Wakanda go through these particular types of things.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Wakandan on May 12, 2016, 09:15:42 am
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


        I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

        However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

        Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Wakandan on May 12, 2016, 10:03:15 am
        Son of the Black Panther
        Ta-Nehisi Coates takes on one of Marvel's iconic superheroes, reinvigorating the Black Panther for a new generation.
        BY JONATHAN W. GRAY
        April 26, 2016


        This article has been edited.

        ... As befits the first hero of African descent published by a major comic book publisher, T’Challa interacts in significant ways with all of Marvel’s other black characters—from the Falcon to Luke Cage to Storm—and they derive inspiration from his stewardship of Wakanda, a truly independent African state that also happens to be the most advanced nation on earth. Marvel’s original rhetoric about Wakanda—unconquered by Western powers and thus untainted by neocolonialism—resembled African American discourse about Haiti in the 1850s and Ethiopia in the mid-1930s, which helps explain T’Challa’s appeal to a post-Civil Rights cohort of black Americans.

        The rebooted Black Panther series engages with this shared history in important ways. Under the guidance of editor-in-chief Axel Alonso, Marvel has successfully launched a number of books featuring underrepresented characters over the last several years, including an Afro-Latino Spider-Man, a female Thor, and a Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel. Indeed, prior to Black Panther’s record-breaking debut in early April—the first issue sold through a 350,000 initial print run and has gone into a second printing—Ms. Marvel was Marvel’s top-selling comic. It speaks to the cultural capital of the comic industry in general and Marvel in particular that Coates, perhaps the most prominent contemporary writer on race and its role in American history, was interested in working for the company.

        ([url]https://images.newrepublic.com/f3138a980a198c1149e87039a75325f7fb239d76.jpeg?w=400&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=615[/url])

        Coates originally pitched Alonso about writing Spider-Man, but it makes sense that Black Panther is Coates’s first foray into comics; his father was once the chairman of the Maryland chapter of the Black Panther Party. And as a lifelong fan of Marvel comics, Coates is as well-versed in its fictive history as he is in America’s bloody past. Working with established superheroes places particular demands on a writer, as it involves two kinds of collaboration: An author works with an illustrator to tell a story, but the author must also build upon what earlier creative teams have established about the character. In this sense, writing a comic about a long-standing protagonist like the Black Panther—or Batman or Spider-Man—involves reconfiguring story lines written by legends like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby, as well as by less-heralded creators, into a new narrative.

        There are two ways for a writer to do this. You could bring to the surface the essential traits of your character in a way that allows readers to experience these familiar qualities anew, as Frank Miller did for Batman with The Dark Knight Returns (1986) and Batman: Year One (1987), and Grant Morrison achieved with All-Star Superman (2008). The other approach is more subtle: Reread your character’s archive, gently realign his portrayal by attending to heretofore overlooked elements, and simultaneously create new supporting characters who facilitate the new direction. Alan Moore pioneered this approach with his run on Saga of the Swamp Thing from 1984-87, and Matt Fraction successfully reinvigorated the characters Iron Fist (2006-09) and Hawkeye (2012-15) using this method. Though the writer changes the character’s canon, the new iteration, if successful, supersedes the old while opening new avenues for storytelling. Coates takes the latter, more challenging approach and, based on my reading of the premiere issue along with the scripts of the first four issues, his Black Panther series succeeds wonderfully.

        Coates renders the Black Panther as a reluctant king at the outset of “A Nation Under Our Feet,” which is a dramatic change. Comic fans have always accepted T’Challa’s serial absences from Wakanda as a consequence of the narrative logic of the Marvel universe, which locates all its heroes in and around New York City. An earlier Black Panther series, for example, opens with T’Challa arriving in New York alongside the Wakandan U.N. delegation, but then maneuvers him to Brooklyn, where he lives in a tenement and tussles with drug dealers who are using a Wakandan foundation to launder their profits. Despite these occurrences, earlier writers insisted that the Black Panther took his responsibilities as sovereign seriously.

        ([url]https://images.newrepublic.com/dfe561cde59e3c086804e843a9545e10b57186d6.jpeg?w=600&q=65&dpi=1&fm=pjpg&h=911[/url])

        Coates, on the other hand, reads that narrative as a sign of T’Challa’s reluctance to accept the responsibilities of the crown, and builds his characterization around it. Considering Coates’s assessment of Queen Nzinga, a seventeenth-century ruler of present-day Angola, in his last book—he identified most with her adviser, “who’d been broken down into a chair so that a queen … could sit”—it is unsurprising that he would chafe at writing a character who uncritically accepts his suitability to rule a nation. But Coates does more than simply reveal T’Challa’s self-doubt. In a recent New York Times discussion of the comic, he approaches the question of Wakandan governance from a different angle, wondering why Wakanda’s “educated population” would “even accept a monarchy.” The initial chapters of Coates’s Black Panther suggest democratic reform is in the offing, a radical change to the Wakandan status quo that allows Coates to interrogate the republican tradition Western readers often take for granted. In past iterations of Black Panther, those who worked to undermine dynastic rule were ultimately revealed to be either usurpers who craved the power of the throne for themselves, pawns controlled by Western powers seeking to undermine the only truly independent African nation so that they might exploit its natural resources, or both, which positioned the benevolent Wakandan monarchy as the foil for neoliberal entanglements.

        ([url]https://images.newrepublic.com/5fb844c02521d1a93a28cc00d46f8c11c359cc52.tiff?w=800&q=65&dpi=1&h=618[/url])

        While some elements of this international intrigue remain in “A Nation Under Our Feet,” Coates legitimizes at least some of the voices decrying monarchical rule. Indeed, perhaps Coates’s most intriguing new character, Zenzi, throws Wakanda into crisis by bringing the citizenry’s conflicted feelings toward T’Challa to the fore. She promises to be a formidable political foe, though the narrative hints she might evolve into an ally, depending on how the “Wakandan Spring” develops.

        If superhero comics—with the notable exception of Chris Claremont’s 17-year run on X-Men—have traditionally devoted themselves to presenting the stories of heroic men, Coates works to correct this imbalance. Aside from Black Panther’s titular character, Coates allots most of his attention to female protagonists: the aforementioned Zenzi; T’Challa’s stepmother and regent, Ramonda; and Ayo and Aneka, members of the elite, all-woman Dora Milaje, which functions as Wakanda’s secret service. Coates’s Ramonda works to balance her role as trusted adviser to the king with her own instincts as a politician and her maternal concern for her son.

        Ayo and Aneka are both soldiers and lovers, which violates the tradition that demands the Dora Milaje remain chaste while in the service of the Black Panther. Their relationship allows Coates to reveal the gendered violence and subordination present in even the most enlightened nation—the couple flee the palace to escape royal censure—but also frees him to address problems the patriarchal royal family has overlooked. Even in Wakanda, women’s problems receive less attention from the state. Within four issues, Coates establishes each of these women as complex characters with distinct motivations, even as he hints at the reintroduction of another important female character, T’Challa’s sister Zuri. While Zuri died protecting Wakanda in T’Challa’s absence, loyal comic readers know that death is rarely permanent.

        The author shows a lapse in his research concerning Shuri.

        One of the most persistent critiques of Between the World and Me, Coates’s most recent book, was that it paid insufficient attention to the ways that black women confront racial violence. His work here suggests he’s taken this critique to heart. (Coates even recently posted on his blog at The Atlantic about his enthusiasm for crafting the “feminists of Wakanda.”) Given the dearth of black women in comics—X-Men’s Storm remains the most prominent black woman in the medium, decades after her debut—Coates’s interest in female subjectivity is a most welcome change.

        A.Curry will surely appreciate this.

        Coates’s narrative contains a number of moving parts, which may make for tough sledding for those unfamiliar with comics as he works to set the stage; the whirl of characters can become bewildering. Issues 3 and 4 are more measured, and demonstrate Coates’s increasing command of the form. Coates has committed to writing Black Panther for the next few years, and watching a son of the Black Panther Party take the Black Panther to new heights promises to be a thrilling experience. Given the confluence of events—the last year of the Obama presidency, the ongoing Black Lives Matter protest movement, the fiftieth anniversary of the character—one expects we’ll never see a moment like this again. Pay attention to Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Black Panther. History will either mark it as an interesting detour in an important career, or herald it as a new peak for comics.

        Jonathan W. Gray is an Associate Professor of English at John Jay College—CUNY and editor of The Journal of Comics and Culture.

        Full unedited article here
        [url]https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther[/url] ([url]https://newrepublic.com/article/132972/son-black-panther[/url])



        GREAT ARTICLE TURE.

        it is disheartening a bit for myself and I'm sure others that Coates initially was interested in Spidey and not BP...hard to believe someone with his background wasn't excited at first about the prospect of working on T'Challa and Wakanda.

        As for the part "I surely will appreciate"...lol...the writer of this piece shows that Coates maybe had some motivation into writing a tale that had a focus on womanist/black feminist issues through Coates himself being criticized for not addressing how black women face racism and sexism in his initial essay work...and trying to bring about the "feminists of Wakanda" through characters like Zenzi (who I'm seeing as a radical Angela Davis archetype) and Aneka and Ayo (who represent a somewhat ignored demographic among black women and an opportunity to question the practice of the Dora...something Priest himself did in his run) provides an opportunity for that.  Though it can still be seen as questionable HOW he is going about it.

        the part about Storm still being the most prominent black female character in comics "decades after her debut" and the dearth of black women in comics prominently featured that the writer spoke on underscores my own point I made earlier on in convo with EmperorJones regarding this.  And even the black women characters that do exist when featured rarely if ever focus on women/black womanist issues.

        People have spoken about Shuri before (can't believe the author misspelled her name) regarding how she is a strong female character, which she is, but having read some of her appearances before I don't recall her having dealt with these issues that could exist, but in a different way, of course, outside America. I could be wrong.  (The concept of the Dora Milaje, for instance, which I like, alone would raise an eyebrow to quite a few women overall, let alone feminist types)  It would likely be questionable to those looking for a woman character whom also is "woman-centered" that Shuri, for various reasons, would provide this.  It will be interesting to see how Coates handles her when he eventually brings her back.


        Still wary of HOW Coates is going about the subjects he seems to be tackling within the backdrop of a place like Wakanda...the HOW can be quite misplaced.  But tackling the subjects themselves is an overall interesting thing to see.


        The bold reminded me of Shuri's speech during the Power arc.

        (http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2016/3/29/shuri1.png)

        (http://oi42.tinypic.com/nzina8.jpg)

        Obviously, a big part of that speech is an attempt to unify Wakandans after a major attack on their soil...but could it be that Shuri views herself in such a manner? "Being Wakandan > all?"

        Since a very young age, Shuri been coveting the Black Panther mantle, a mantle that requires a tremendous amount of sacrifice, physically, mentally, emotionally, and perhaps in terms of identity. The mantle requires one to put the needs of Wakanda and its people over everything. Including one's personal desires.

        Shuri's obviously aware that she is a woman (she mentioned so in the speech), and I wouldn't be surprised if throughout her reign several people would go at her in part (or perhaps in large part) because she's a woman. Especially from non-Wakandans.

        However, considering that she's been training for a highly-challenging position for so long and eventually lead a historically warrior nation via a position that--exceptions aside--is usually fielded by men, I do wonder how far she would go in terms of women's issues, outside of perhaps an egalitarian and meritocratic perspective. Perhaps her personal experience would entice her to go far, feeling that women don't get enough of a fair shake in Wakanda. Perhaps her experience make her do otherwise, make tweeks here and there in Wakandan society, but not more, feeling that Wakanda, overall, have given women somewhat of a fair shake (she isn't the first female Black Panther, afterall). Or perhaps it is a blend of both: Wakanda is well ahead of its peers across the world, but more should be done.

        Either way, I see it as a story-arc opportunity. One I would be very interested in reading under the right writer.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Evasive 1 on May 12, 2016, 12:46:00 pm
        Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

        This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

        I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

        agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
        Yeah, I am getting this feeling of "Oh,no. Not again" with the flow of Coates writing this book. I had such high hopes with a black writer coming on to write this comic, but the truth is he was probably never really a fan of BP, especially if he thought Hickman was great. If he wanted to do Spiderman, it means he was all good what the writers after Hudlin and McDuffie had done. I've been on other forums on the internet and there is a alot of new fans BP has gotten based on Civil War movie.  In fact, I was surprised how many black comic fans didn't know much about T'Challa at all. Alot of the old fans who have followed BP have already been in some debates with folks who are suddenly claiming htey've been with BP from Day 1 but with comments show they don't know much more than what they got off Wikipedia or nothing true to the character at all. The new fans need a real intro of the great character that many of us have followed for years. If this is there introduction to BP, I am frightened. I can see people being turned off and others accepting what is written even if Coates tarnishes the image of T"Challa. I'm trying to give Coates the benefit of the doubt, but if an improvement isn't seen by issue #4 then I won't bee collecting this book and hope that sales will drop enough that Coates or Marvel gets the message and gets a new writer. I guess it proves that just because you get a person of color to write a POC character story doesn't mean they will do that character justice. All your skinfolk are not necessarily your kinfolk.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ture on May 13, 2016, 07:29:13 am
        Welcome to the HEF The Wakandan, those were excellent post and I look forward to conversing with you on all things Black Panther.

        Well stated The Evasive 1.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 13, 2016, 10:20:45 am
        Funny. A lot of us wanted an authentic black voice to write Panther and this is what we get. Meanwhile, Panther's best portrayal since forever is being written in Ultimates by Ewing, who has shown to respect Panther more in 5 issues in a shared team book than Panther can get in his solo.

        This book is horrible. Normally I judge a book by its third or forth issue, but two issues in... How high the mighty Wakanda has fallen. This is worse than any flood could have ever done to the golden city. Normally, I'm a fan who will wait for a good pay off for a story to conclude, but after seeing Cap 3 already 4 times this past week (let's be honest, while the Cap movies are my favorite Marvel movies, this was mostly for the Panther) and wanting more of a Panther fix, this was a damn near slap in the face.

        I dunno. I just.... I dunno. I'm a little numb to this book right now. I'm going to go ahead and pull the this run like I normally would, but I don't think I'll read any more until this arc is finished. Read it all in one setting. Then judge it. But as of now, coming behind Captain America 3, this series is the worst thing ever to expose new readers to the character and his mythos.

        agreed, and yes Ultimates is the T'challa I'm familiar with
        Yeah, I am getting this feeling of "Oh,no. Not again" with the flow of Coates writing this book. I had such high hopes with a black writer coming on to write this comic, but the truth is he was probably never really a fan of BP, especially if he thought Hickman was great. If he wanted to do Spiderman, it means he was all good what the writers after Hudlin and McDuffie had done. I've been on other forums on the internet and there is a alot of new fans BP has gotten based on Civil War movie.  In fact, I was surprised how many black comic fans didn't know much about T'Challa at all. Alot of the old fans who have followed BP have already been in some debates with folks who are suddenly claiming htey've been with BP from Day 1 but with comments show they don't know much more than what they got off Wikipedia or nothing true to the character at all. The new fans need a real intro of the great character that many of us have followed for years. If this is there introduction to BP, I am frightened. I can see people being turned off and others accepting what is written even if Coates tarnishes the image of T"Challa. I'm trying to give Coates the benefit of the doubt, but if an improvement isn't seen by issue #4 then I won't bee collecting this book and hope that sales will drop enough that Coates or Marvel gets the message and gets a new writer. I guess it proves that just because you get a person of color to write a POC character story doesn't mean they will do that character justice. All your skinfolk are not necessarily your kinfolk.

        Well stated post...dont know if the "skinfolk arent kinfolk" quote is fair...I think Coates for better or worse is trying to tell a specific story coming off of what he sees as a post traumatic Wakanda, and though I DEFINITELY have some issues with how he's going about it I dont think his goal is to show disrespect to T'Challa or not show him justice.  Dude has spent his career writing about issues regarding racism against black people in america and so forth...a POC writer isnt always going to take the route all or even most black people or even most black fans of this character agree on...and though I dont think he's trying to show disrespect to the character I can see in a few indirect ways he (and maybe Stelfreeze as the artist too, who im sure is given free reign to draw what he wants) may not even be thinking of. 

        Overall, with only 2 issues in, it would have to be explained hopefully at some point how all of this is going on in Wakanda without T'Challa knowing about it or doing anything about it...I agree that is making him look somewhat blind and ineffective.  And the two Dora having to be on the run with one sentenced to death for the crime of killing a mysoginist and possible pedophile seems forced and not overkill.

        SPOILERS

        the scene with the big soldier, for instance, that threw him down...I can almost guarantee that Coates didnt write that scene but just the inner monologue (which was an excellently written) that was going on during it...I bet he just put in "Tchalla fights to get past soldiers" and Stelfreeze, who I also think invented and is a fan of that "magnetic push" thing, likes drawing it.  I'd like to think that that soldier was superhuman with augments in strength...which is something that shouldve been shown through TChalla's inner monologue while fighting him and being surprised by him...cause a normal human even that size should be no match for Panther.  But again, im betting its something Stelfreeze just drew up for a fight scene that Coates didnt even write in of notice.  And with him being a novice probably didnt even think to question Stelfreeze...whom I admit should know better himself.

        It will be interesting to see I admit how new fans especially are going to react to this after a few more issues after coming off the movie...and how sales will be affected...some fans black and white have been drawn to it Im sure just because Coates name is on it..but those fans are coming in without the same expectations of Wakanda and Panther that many old fans have...along with no knowledge of whats come before.  So to them this may all "make sense" and is acceptable and may even be seen as an great read...which in some cases it is but to one who has been a fan of Panther before is highly questionable.

        Either way, I think it will be interesting to see where he's going with this, though I agree he needs to show TChalla and Wakanda in a better light...and soon. 

        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 13, 2016, 10:40:54 am
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?

        Excellent points. I think its a combo of things. ther have been people of less moral fiber bringing things into Wakanda, such as back in the day the drug traffiking, and though what we are seeing now is new, and more akin to real world issue going on now, I agree now may not have been the best time to showcase this in Wakanda. It was mentioned over at the CBR forums but posters there were talking about how the story could have a similar premise but instead of all this stuff going on in Wakanda, have it happening in a neighboring nation and the issue is whether or not Wakanda should get involved, with the Dora's doing excatly what they are doing right now, but it happening to Nigandan bandits, and leaders in power, rather then Wakanda, and T'Challa trying to find the best course of action while not trying to make it seem like Wakanda is going rogue to the UN or other nations. But of course thats not what we have but it could of been a good alternative.

        Also:
        I think they are apart of the People. I think the point is that Tetu wants to first have Zenzi fan the flames in the hearts of the Wakandan people, then when they are going wild and violence and trafficking rings and such "The People" are going to come in as saviors (while also probably being the ones behind the scenes assisting this Jambazi Tribe with their traffiking ring), providing a safe haven for the citizens ushering them away from the bandits as a way of putting themselves in a better light. So when T'Challa comes in and starts smashing faces, they don't see it as their king coming to their aid, but as a tyrant crushing their hope of protection from the violence and rape from the Bandits and Jambazi.

        Thats my theory. I think they are Tetu's men Especially since Zenzi was there. I wouldn't think she would go somewhere without some protection despite her power



        Ezyo,

        I actually mentioned in a post a few pages ago that this premise would have been better received and would have had more potential along with making more sense if it was happening outside of Wakanda's borders in other far more corrupt nations where these things actually do occur...Coates could have done it that way and addressed everything from gender politics to rape camps while also going into a socio-political story involving how these things came about through colonization amongst other tragedies without putting the blemish of this on Wakanda...it would have been cool even if Aneka and Ayo were the ones leading charges against these things outside of Wakanda and having caused cross-border crimes were bought forward to Tchalla to argue why Wakanda should get involved in dealing with these horrors in Africa.  They could still even be involved with each other which would also still give light to black LGBT characterization while also creating another culturally involved conflict since they are supposed to be committed to the king (would be quite a scandal and still may be an upcoming one Coates already planned for) and not in love with each other.  Then Wakanda and Panther would have to deal with the conflict of getting involved in other copuntries issues on multiple fronts, with America and the Avengers getting involved eventually.

        I agree about them being Tetu's men...but what if the Dora are secretly working with "the People" as well and what they are doing is all a part of an overall plan?  And perhaps they are unknowingly being used by Tetu and Zenzi themselves...
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: A.Curry on May 13, 2016, 11:11:57 am
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


        I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

        However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

        Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.

        hey Wakandan,

        I absolutely think Coates has taken advantage of coming off of the overall destructive occurrences including the last and recent "Time Runs Out" storyline that involved yet another blow to Wakanda, to not only tell what he might see as an eventual and redemptive "from the ashes" story but to also address real life issues he obviously feels a desire to.  Thus yeah, he's adding in things strictly for the sake of the plot, but it arguably may be too much as some of this involving both Panther and Wakanda just wouldnt make sense even post trauma...and if sound explanations arent given soon its going to look worse...especially since the T'Challa and Wakanda I and others know WOULD  take a more than firm stance and actions in these situations immediately...which is one reason why its hard to see it existing in Wakanda in the first place.

        I also think the premise has merit, but would be more acceptable if it was happening outside of Wakanda and its king chose to get involved after having been convinced by his passionate Doras.


        I absolutely dont think these things were happening prior to Coates run, its highly suggested I think that these are occurences that grew very recently over Wakanda becoming highly destabilized especially after the Black Order destroyed it along with other hits its taken.  Either way though, it does and will look bad for Panther and the ruling family if these things have been going on for even a short while without them knowing about it.

        I was actually disturbed by Ramonda having been so dispassionate and unfair when sentencing the one Dora to death over killing a cheiftain that was taking advantage of women in his village.  That in particular made no sense to me.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: Ezyo on May 13, 2016, 12:08:03 pm

        Quote
        Ezyo,

        I actually mentioned in a post a few pages ago that this premise would have been better received and would have had more potential along with making more sense if it was happening outside of Wakanda's borders in other far more corrupt nations where these things actually do occur...Coates could have done it that way and addressed everything from gender politics to rape camps while also going into a socio-political story involving how these things came about through colonization amongst other tragedies without putting the blemish of this on Wakanda...it would have been cool even if Aneka and Ayo were the ones leading charges against these things outside of Wakanda and having caused cross-border crimes were bought forward to Tchalla to argue why Wakanda should get involved in dealing with these horrors in Africa.  They could still even be involved with each other which would also still give light to black LGBT characterization while also creating another culturally involved conflict since they are supposed to be committed to the king (would be quite a scandal and still may be an upcoming one Coates already planned for) and not in love with each other.  Then Wakanda and Panther would have to deal with the conflict of getting involved in other copuntries issues on multiple fronts, with America and the Avengers getting involved eventually.

        I agree about them being Tetu's men...but what if the Dora are secretly working with "the People" as well and what they are doing is all a part of an overall plan?  And perhaps they are unknowingly being used by Tetu and Zenzi themselves... A.Curry

        I thought that too, What if the Dora's were working with Tetu and Zenzi, Maybe not intentionally but being manipulated by them without knowing. It hard to say this early on but that is what im leaning to. Also in regards to that scene with the bigger guy (We call him Goon Slam Gary on the CBR) i do think that he is superhuman because those look like Tetu's men and i think that scene was a set up. But also there was a poster on the cbr that made a interesting point. Reread that scene and pay attention to his inner monologue about the legend and mystique of a king, and only showing so much might, It coul be possible to interpret that fight scene in that manner, making the Goon think that he has T'Challa in a bad postion until he knocks him away 100+ feet through a wall. I dunno how correct it is but it was something to think about. As for this arc taking place in a different country i think it could wok nicely as well to be honest. But i can also see why Coates maybe feels the need to want to address the issues left in the wakes of Mayberry, AvX and Hickman. I just hope that he realizes that he needs to show T'Challa having small victories even before he starts coming on the rise. Having loss after loss and then one victory in the end can feel unsatisfactory.
        Title: Re: Reparations and Revolution for the Damisa-Sarki Ta-Nehisi Coates' Black Panther
        Post by: The Wakandan on May 13, 2016, 12:14:45 pm
        Does it not arguably in a way say something about T'Challa as a leader and King if Wakanda has fallen into such debauchery despite the commendable way Coates may write him specifically?  Isn't Wakanda and Panther inextricably linked enough that one mirrors the other?

        Absolutely!  This is the crux of the matter, excellent questions and undoubtedly the most important theme as Coates and Marvel have clearly chosen to transition T'Challa and Wakanda from Hickman's continuity, albeit with deference to previous creators as well, rather than rebooting.  It is not new for there to exist within Wakanda citizens of less than enlightened moral fiber.  From the earliest days there was; Man-Ape, Killmonger, the Wakandans T'Challa caught poaching Vibranium during the Kiber incident, the Tommorow Fund administrator, Achebe, Nakia/Malice, Syan's son, even the late Wakabi struck his wife during a heated dispute.  I get that drama requires conflict, so drama internal to Wakanda will likely involve conflict internal to Wakanda.  Coates is committed to this path.  His BP legacy will hinge on whether or not T'Challa can resolve Wakandan conflict and repair the national damage, much of which has resulted from T'Challa's own malfeasance.  His needs to be one hell of a plan!  My two cents.

        Peace,

        Mont

        Hmmmm...excellent points about there already having been Wakandans of less than moral fiber in continuity though I wouldn't include W'kabi having hit his wife as that was more an act of desperation and one he was sorry for immediately after.  Thing is even the villains you mentioned I couldn't see stooping to things so disgusting and dishonorable as having rape camps...maybe Achebe because he's a psychopath. And was the tomorrow fund administrator Wakandan?

        Two things: taking in your point, is it really highly implausible that these things wouldn't happen in a destabilized Wakanda in its outer borders given that Wakanda has had its share of morally bereft characters before, or are some of us as fans just insulted by the fact that Wakanda is being shown to have issues like this (which I agree that, for better or worse, are being storied to address a mainstream and real world issue) because we'd like to think that Wakanda as a nation entire would be above such things?  Is it actually a sensible argument that these things wouldn't and shouldn't exist in Wakanda simply because we've never seen it before even though we've seen other morally bereft things happen there and the country itself has gone through destructive changes due to all that Hickman before wrought?

        Also, whether these things should and could exist or not, is it plausible that a king who went all the way to America over the death of a child in a scandal during the Priest run would not know about or worse not address IMMEDIATELY similar things happening to young women in his own kingdom, even way outside the golden city?


        I'm one of those that feel, despite my somewhat negative feelings about the premise, that the premise has a lot of merit. Wakanda has faced a high amount of unprecedented events in its history, from infiltration (DoomWar), to biblical flood (AvX), to eventual destruction (Time Runs Out). Yes, T'Challa did bring everyone back, but it appears that enough people do remember what happened prior to their deaths. Thus, I can understand that there could be a large amount of people who could have negative feelings about the Wakandan government's inability to protect the country. A good amount of those people may even have negative feelings about T'Challa himself, depending on what they know about his actions during the Hickman run and perhaps his knack of being very involved with outsiders and events outside of Wakanda that don't involve Wakanda.

        However, that currently doesn't explain how things went from apparent recovery to numerous corrupt--and lecherous--chieftains allowed to operate, as well had mischievous operations going on within Wakanda's borders. One could argue that perhaps these events have been going on prior to the Coates run. If so, that is a major red flag in the leadership of T'Challa, Shuri, and possibly T'Chaka and other previous panthers. One could also say it is a result of a mounting distrust for the Monarchy and something resembling anarchy has risen in some parts of Wakanda. If so, where's the royal family's reaction to this? Why isn't it clamping it down, rather than seemingly turning a blind eye to it?

        Maybe there's something I've missed while reading, but it's as if we are currently have actions occur strictly for the sake of the plot, similar to how thing began unfolding during the Hickman run. I hope there are clear explanations for all this. More importantly, I would really like the royal family, and T'Challa in particular as King, to take a firm stance and decisive actions on panel against those situations.

        hey Wakandan,

        I absolutely think Coates has taken advantage of coming off of the overall destructive occurrences including the last and recent "Time Runs Out" storyline that involved yet another blow to Wakanda, to not only tell what he might see as an eventual and redemptive "from the ashes" story but to also address real life issues he obviously feels a desire to.  Thus yeah, he's adding in things strictly for the sake of the plot, but it arguably may be too much as some of this involving both Panther and Wakanda just wouldnt make sense even post trauma...and if sound explanations arent given soon its going to look worse...especially since the T'Challa and Wakanda I and others know WOULD  take a more than firm stance and actions in these situations immediately...which is one reason why its hard to see it existing in Wakanda in the first place.

        I also think the premise