Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 06:22:20 am

Title: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 06:22:20 am
Good lord here we go...

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- We get some back story on Tetu. He seems to be some sort of sorcerer

- Then the preview with T'challa talking to Ramonda

- Preview continues with MA. The old woman cries that the Panther no longer protects them like the old days. MA decide they need an army.

- Shuri spirit walk time. Discusses stuff rom the pre-vibranium age.

- T'challa hunts Zenzi and finds Zenzi and Tetu both. Punks some goons, blasts Zenzi with a force push, brings in the Dogs of War, and then gets stopped by Tetu who uses magic plant root stuff

T'challa is stopped by plants.

- Tetu lectures him on his failures (mentions Namor, Doom War, Shuri) and leaves

- the MA go to the white gorilla tribe and recruit their army it seems...is that M'baku? EDIT: nevermind, not M'baku, lord Mandla? who the hell is that and why not jsut use M'baku?



Sigh... I need to take a step back before I start ranting.

Once again, T'challa is a side character, once again loses liek an idiot, once again lectured for his failures

sigh
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: The Wakandan on June 29, 2016, 07:22:05 am
Haven't read the issue yet, but....

(http://i.imgur.com/oGNZBKM.gif)

Will give my thoughts once I'm done reading. Something tells me this issue will be...topical.  :-X
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 07:36:55 am
Haven't read the issue yet, but....

([url]http://i.imgur.com/oGNZBKM.gif[/url])

Will give my thoughts once I'm done reading. Something tells me this issue will be...topical.  :-X


I've read it 3 times.

I have had my issues with various Panther stories, but usually they are "meh, didn't really like it" and move on type of things.

this is on the level of Doom War and the storm vs panther AvX story where I get done reading and im like... ANGRY and bitter and confused
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 08:24:38 am
Good lord here we go...

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- We get some back story on Tetu. He seems to be some sort of sorcerer

- Then the preview with T'challa talking to Ramonda

- Preview continues with MA. The old woman cries that the Panther no longer protects them like the old days. MA decide they need an army.

- Shuri spirit walk time. Discusses stuff rom the pre-vibranium age.

- T'challa hunts Zenzi and finds Zenzi and Tetu both. Punks some goons, blasts Zenzi with a force push, brings in the Dogs of War, and then gets stopped by Tetu who uses magic plant root stuff

T'challa is stopped by plants.

- Tetu lectures him on his failures (mentions Namor, Doom War, Shuri) and leaves

- the MA go to the white gorilla tribe and recruit their army it seems...is that M'baku? EDIT: nevermind, not M'baku, lord Mandla? who the hell is that and why not jsut use M'baku?



Sigh... I need to take a step back before I start ranting.

Once again, T'challa is a side character, once again loses liek an idiot, once again lectured for his failures

sigh

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Well for Tetu He seems more like an Avatar for the spirits of the trees, like a sorcerer/avatar.
I felt that there was alot going on, too many side plots building that there wasn't enough time to really draw into a specific story. Honestly T'Challa's Shuri's and tetu's should of been the focus. As for Mandla I think Coates is using him because for one he doesn't like M'Baku and said form the get go he wasn't going to use him due to his name being offensive. I can see this guy working because also unlike M'Baku he seems okay as using technology which i guess is what they need right now.

Overall the issue felt kinda build up for everything thats to come. though i wish it didn't take so much panel time from T'Challa. the MA dont need as much time as they are getting now, they are already established.

I think there needs to be more power shown form Tetu though. I don't think what we have seen should be enough to Stop T'Challa, and those vines should of looked.. More powerful if it was going to restrain T'Challa, the guy who tangles with cosmic level beings.

This is going to be a hard story to be honest. I am not fond either of him running into the main villains so soon. Issue 4 i think would of been a good place to start while 1-3 establish that though T'Challa is distracted, he still kicks ass
  [/size][/b]
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 08:37:18 am
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 08:44:45 am
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

I think so, But from his interviews a looong time ago he said he didn't like the Man ape, Maybe it was his name he took offense to.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
But also this new guy is in a mechanical suit rather then a skinned gorilla showing that he favors tech over mystics like Mbaku

And maybe he will serve a different purpose or be a character for T'challa to beat on or something. I dunno. But honestly i would of rather tetu and T'challa not meet up till issue 5 or so and this issue T'challa should of successfully captured Zenzi. Coates needs to remember T'Challa needs wins too even if he is starting out on the low.[/size][/b]
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 29, 2016, 08:50:17 am
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

Well,. Reggie did kill M'baku, even though he has shown up since then.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 08:54:33 am
Seeing a white gorilla tribe member wearing tech just rubs me all wrong.

Nothing is sacred. Next up, maybe Killmonger and come in and say he hates Starbucks
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 09:04:50 am
Quote

And maybe he will serve a different purpose or be a character for T'challa to beat on or something. I dunno. But honestly i would of rather tetu and T'challa not meet up till issue 5 or so and this issue T'challa should of successfully captured Zenzi. Coates needs to remember T'Challa needs wins too even if he is starting out on the low.[/size][/b]

I have a feeling the only "win" T'challa is going to get this whole saga is bringing Shuri back to life.

I wanna see a t'challa, shuri, hunter team up to take back the country now. MAKE IT HAPPEN COATES!

(im so depressed abotu this book that im gonna make up fan fiction in my head)
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 09:20:14 am
Quote

And maybe he will serve a different purpose or be a character for T'challa to beat on or something. I dunno. But honestly i would of rather tetu and T'challa not meet up till issue 5 or so and this issue T'challa should of successfully captured Zenzi. Coates needs to remember T'Challa needs wins too even if he is starting out on the low.[/size][/b]

I have a feeling the only "win" T'challa is going to get this whole saga is bringing Shuri back to life.

I wanna see a t'challa, shuri, hunter team up to take back the country now. MAKE IT HAPPEN COATES!

(im so depressed abotu this book that im gonna make up fan fiction in my head)

Its gonna be interesting to see what kind of win comes out of this. an i think the consensus is pointing towards Wakanda is too much tech or something. I wonder if there is going to be some mystical gods of some sort with that spirit tree. But i dunno i couldn't tell if that was Tetu's inner monologue and he is supposed to be some sort of deity or what.

Again i still think he should of had T'Challa capture Zenzi here instead of running into Tetu. that way when they do clash its more dramatic
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 09:24:29 am
Quote

And maybe he will serve a different purpose or be a character for T'challa to beat on or something. I dunno. But honestly i would of rather tetu and T'challa not meet up till issue 5 or so and this issue T'challa should of successfully captured Zenzi. Coates needs to remember T'Challa needs wins too even if he is starting out on the low.[/size][/b]

I have a feeling the only "win" T'challa is going to get this whole saga is bringing Shuri back to life.

I wanna see a t'challa, shuri, hunter team up to take back the country now. MAKE IT HAPPEN COATES!

(im so depressed abotu this book that im gonna make up fan fiction in my head)

Its gonna be interesting to see what kind of win comes out of this. an i think the consensus is pointing towards Wakanda is too much tech or something. I wonder if there is going to be some mystical gods of some sort with that spirit tree. But i dunno i couldn't tell if that was Tetu's inner monologue and he is supposed to be some sort of deity or what.

Again i still think he should of had T'Challa capture Zenzi here instead of running into Tetu. that way when they do clash its more dramatic


At least T'challa hit her with that one hitter quitter this time. Then again, I would have liked to if he had anything prepped in case he couldn't get close enough to hit her.

And did T'challa not know what Tetu was? And di he just stand there the whole time watching him dance instead of using, you know, his speed to knock him the f*ck out lol?

anger sharks are swimming in my head.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 10:17:01 am
Alright, here are more long ass thoughts on this issue. Spoiler warning so I put it behind tags. Oh, and rant warning. and "I hate this book" warning.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
- This is just getting brutal. I just don't get it man. I just don't like it. T'challa just got taken down by magic roots. Because, once again, he ran into a fight without being prepared. Totally in character.

- I have had my issues with #1 and #2. One thing I never criticized is the writing and art. Well, I am about to...

The art is GREAT in static shots.The Tetu stuff was beautiful. Shuri stuff was beautiful. But, in the action shots , it seems so... lifeless. Like there is no motion going on. I had a minor issue with it last issue but it is more pronounced this issue. No one else is complaining about this so, it is likely just me.




Now the writing, it could be that I am just overly bitter about everything but, it sucks. Maybe I am used to dumbed down comics but... it is overly vague. Always. Overly "deep." The whole Tetu bullsh*t in the beginning and the end adds virtually NOTHING to the comic. All it does is take away panel space for more important sh*t.

He has four plots all running at the same time: Tetu/Zenzi, Shuri, Midnight Angels, and some joker named T'challa every once in awhile. It isn't good writing to have four plots going in 20 pages of comics. You can't do all of them justice. Someone is going to get stiffed.

And he is stiffing the GOD DAMN TITLE CHARACTER! His name is on the book and he is in seven pages. And in those 7 pages, he doesn't even act like the T'challa I call my favorite hero. Physcially, he is a non-threat. He doesn't feel super-human at all. He struggles with goons. He overuses the force push thing. Where are his daggers? Where is anything? Why does it feel like "no super powers Black Panther" all over again?


I guess mean muggin' is T'challa's only power these days

- The book would be better titled, "The Midnight Angels." They are the real heroes of this book. They are the ones being proactive, prepping, acting smart. "Wakanda" would be an apt title as well. Because "Black Panther" no longer fits.

- So, there are rape camps. T'challa's head of the Dora's was about to be executed. Another Dora steals his advanced tech and breaks her out of prison. They go to one rape camp and destroy it. They then go to the outlawed White Gorilla tribe. Yet... no reaction from T'challa? No on panel discussion about it? If this was Priest's run, I would say that this is all a part of his plan and he is thinking 5 steps ahead. Under TNC though, it just seems like he is being chumped and made to look like a good damn fool in his own book.

- Who the hell is Lord Mandla? Why not just use M'baku? Did TNC not get wind that he was alive again? I thought TNC hated "Man Ape?" And seeing tech on the Lord of the White Gorilla tribe... UGH. That feels so wrong.


M'Baku is rolling in his... American bed.

- I am going to be very, very, very curious to see how this book sales by issue #4. I just do not see how it holds its current mark unless it really is non-comic fans that are buying it because TNC name is attached. Dr. Strange is in a similar boat as Black Panther and hell, his world is going to sh*t as well in his own book. But, throughout his world falling apart and magic dying everywhere... he still comes off as the hero in the book. He is still fighting with every last fiber he has to try and fix it. The other sorcerer's have doubt but Strange doesn't. He is uplifting, he will sacrifice himself to stop the threat.

I don't get that same feeling when reading Black Panther. There hasn't been enough panel time devoted to him to get that feeling. He just feels as if he exists to prop up the supposed villains or Midnight Angels. Hell, the villains barely feel like villains.

- This book just sucks. It is incredibly decompressed, pulled in too many directions, and T'challa feels like an afterthought. If this was any other character, I would drop this book like a rock. Three issues is generally enough to get a feel for a book. And right now, I am feel stuck. T'challa's my favorite hero. I want to support him so he gets more books, shows up in more team books, gets put in events, ect. But god, I don't want to support TNC. This sh*t is hot garbage right now.

This was my face after reading the book...

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jMeJZmIhb70/V3QBFLyyKMI/AAAAAAAAHfY/dWgYh0BvLZgHJ4xL4Z_HecGiY6Gx5gfWQCLcB/s1600/bp3%252C3.JPG)

copied and pasted from here: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/ (http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/)
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: The Wakandan on June 29, 2016, 10:21:23 am
Finally read the issue. This is a surprisingly difficult issue to critic.

On one hand, purely from a writing standpoint, this issue, imho, was definitely the best issue of the current run so far. Even though it served more as a build-up, the story moved forward and the writing flowed much better this time around. The art by Stelfreeze and Laura Martin were on point once again.

That said, if one was looking for a "Black Panther" issue--as in an issue focused on T'Challa, his ups and downs, etc--this is not it. If this was called "Wakanda," then this would fit right in. It def feels like he's a co-star at best for the time being.

There is also a lot of moving parts in this issue. My thoughts on each subplot are in the spoiler tag.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
-T'Challa's journey isn't..."bad" per se (although his portrayal is definitely NOT where it should be), but there isn't enough of it so far. This is important especially when his plot is getting and will continue to have more deconstruction. If this keeps up, I just don't know how he'll be able to get that "W" he really needs moving forward. Coates has to balance it out at some point.

-The MA plot is moving surprisingly slowly considering the amount of panel space its taking. It either needs to pick up or be cut down a bit. Also, it appears that Aneka and Ayo gathered a lot of Dora Milaje in their final panel? How did they pull that off? Did the other Doras abandon the Kingdom as well?

Lastly, I still can't get over the apparent fact that the Kingdom, despite everything that has happened, isn't on high alert and thus has been ignoring (intentionally or not) human trafficking ops and the like. If there was a panel showing that Wakandan resources are being used to "put fires out" throughout the country the best they can, that would be one thing. At the moment, it doesn't feel like it, nor has been stated as well implicitly besides T'Challa and / or another character saying that Wakanda is going through stuff. A lot of telling, but not enough showing, imho.

-Tetu and Zenzi (and Tetu in particular) had a good showing. I'm assuming we'll see more of Tetu's powerset as time goes on.

-Shuri's journey is still a wildcard and is actually quite intriguing. It appears she'll be leaning even more towards the traditional ways. I'm curious on how it all ties to the main plot, outside of her potentially being revived.

In short, #3 is an improvement compared to the previous two issues. But I think Ture has summed up my thoughts on the run so far...

Coates is writing a good multi faceted  story, it just not a good multi faceted Black Panther story...
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 12:27:45 pm
Spoiler (click to reveal)
To Be honest, after his conversation with his mother T'Challa should move be shown moving on from feeling guilty for the past failures, If people bring it up he should just ignore it because right now its being played over and over like a broken record. I still think T'Challa and Tetu shouldn't have met yet. This issue should of been a small Win for T'Challa by him finding Zenzi, smashing the goons and then force pushing her into the tree, knocking her out and T'Challa taking her prisoner. Then for issue 4 it allows them to have some heated conversations. Then by issue 5 Tetu and T'Challa shouldve met to have a big confrontation to showcase Tetu's strength in this spirits or whatever. But i feel like Coates is rushing too much with the baddies, If we keep watching T'Challa run head first into trouble, lose, come back next issue, then lose again because he isn't preparing for another variable. Its gonna completely ruin him.

As for the MA, I am kinda getting a little bored with them. They are taking up too much panel space and this issue should of been dedicated to T'Challa, Shuri, and a Tetu, with Tetu's back story shown at the beginning like it was, then the end with the rain. But no encounter with T'Challa. But the MA they are doing too much,and its not making sense how they are moving like they are uninhibited by anything, UNLESS T'Challa is letting them do so as it makes little sense how they could do what they are doing.

I do hate how it kinda does feel like everyone except T'Challa seem to know what they are doing and being smart about their actions. That comment made by Tetu "Some of us are more then our birthright" Kinda bugs me because T'Challs is WAY MORE then his birthright, and even then he still had to prove himself worthy to where he is. He didn't get handed the crown.

All in All I felt this kinda jump started things to start getting bigger But what we need is for T'Challa to get some Ws and Coates dropped the ball as he had the perfect opportunity to do so by the capture of Zenzi
[/b]
end of spoilers

Man this is gonna test me lol if i cringe at how much worse its gonna get. Hopefully for solicts for 7 and beyond shed some hope of redeeming qualities back to T'Challa. I almost feel like he is trying to do what Hickman did and weave this big huge winding story by how many stories were going on in this issue. He needs to cut it down. the Dora's this next issue can take a break and focus on T'Challa more. Show him doing something, anything that shows prep. no more burdened down by guilt. Yes he f'ed up, but now he needs to stand confident. TNC said in that first video that T'Challa has a plan... Its time to pay up on that now. 
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 12:44:27 pm
Spoiler (click to reveal)
To Be honest, after his conversation with his mother T'Challa should move be shown moving on from feeling guilty for the past failures, If people bring it up he should just ignore it because right now its being played over and over like a broken record. I still think T'Challa and Tetu shouldn't have met yet. This issue should of been a small Win for T'Challa by him finding Zenzi, smashing the goons and then force pushing her into the tree, knocking her out and T'Challa taking her prisoner. Then for issue 4 it allows them to have some heated conversations. Then by issue 5 Tetu and T'Challa shouldve met to have a big confrontation to showcase Tetu's strength in this spirits or whatever. But i feel like Coates is rushing too much with the baddies, If we keep watching T'Challa run head first into trouble, lose, come back next issue, then lose again because he isn't preparing for another variable. Its gonna completely ruin him.

As for the MA, I am kinda getting a little bored with them. They are taking up too much panel space and this issue should of been dedicated to T'Challa, Shuri, and a Tetu, with Tetu's back story shown at the beginning like it was, then the end with the rain. But no encounter with T'Challa. But the MA they are doing too much,and its not making sense how they are moving like they are uninhibited by anything, UNLESS T'Challa is letting them do so as it makes little sense how they could do what they are doing.

I do hate how it kinda does feel like everyone except T'Challa seem to know what they are doing and being smart about their actions. That comment made by Tetu "Some of us are more then our birthright" Kinda bugs me because T'Challs is WAY MORE then his birthright, and even then he still had to prove himself worthy to where he is. He didn't get handed the crown.

All in All I felt this kinda jump started things to start getting bigger But what we need is for T'Challa to get some Ws and Coates dropped the ball as he had the perfect opportunity to do so by the capture of Zenzi
[/b]
end of spoilers

Man this is gonna test me lol if i cringe at how much worse its gonna get. Hopefully for solicts for 7 and beyond shed some hope of redeeming qualities back to T'Challa. I almost feel like he is trying to do what Hickman did and weave this big huge winding story by how many stories were going on in this issue. He needs to cut it down. the Dora's this next issue can take a break and focus on T'Challa more. Show him doing something, anything that shows prep. no more burdened down by guilt. Yes he f'ed up, but now he needs to stand confident. TNC said in that first video that T'Challa has a plan... Its time to pay up on that now. 

His plan is working on that rough draft of the speech he is gonna give at the end of this run to give the power to the people

That is why he hasn't been prepping for his enemies, lots of late nights in Necropolis proof reading his essay.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Salustrade on June 29, 2016, 02:23:49 pm
If Coates was a Caucasian writer, some of the heads advocating this wait and see mularkey, would probably have accused him of being a racist just based off of what he's currently doing with the BP mythos.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 02:46:48 pm
If Coates was a Caucasian writer, some of the heads advocating this wait and see mularkey, would probably have accused him of being a racist just based off of what he's currently doing with the BP mythos.

Some would i bet, However like Hickman, I will give Coates the chance to finish his story. He just needs to realize that you can't make the protagonist of the book look bad all throughout and expect the readers to root for him. he needs a solid win to balance out the story and tip it the other way. Hopefully Ewing now starts kicking Ultimates into overdrive
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Salustrade on June 29, 2016, 03:22:02 pm
If Coates was a Caucasian writer, some of the heads advocating this wait and see mularkey, would probably have accused him of being a racist just based off of what he's currently doing with the BP mythos.

Some would i bet, However like Hickman, I will give Coates the chance to finish his story. He just needs to realize that you can't make the protagonist of the book look bad all throughout and expect the readers to root for him. he needs a solid win to balance out the story and tip it the other way. Hopefully Ewing now starts kicking Ultimates into overdrive

What makes you think Coates is interested in anyone rooting for T'Challa?

He showed nothing but disdain for the character and his world before the first issue dropped.

That in itself, should have clued heads up as to what Coates would bring to the BP mythos.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2016, 03:52:15 pm
At this point, Hickmans Tchalla is miles ahead pf Coates ineffectual Tchalla.

Coates at least had Tchalla physically not a piece of sh*t. He at least stomped goons like they were, well, goons and displayed various useful tech.

Hickmans tchalla woukdnt stare at Tetu dancing and then get restrained by plants. Nor get hit by an rpg.

God, cant believe im advocating Hickmans panther. Yeesh
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: True Father 7 on June 29, 2016, 04:14:47 pm
Good lord here we go...

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- We get some back story on Tetu. He seems to be some sort of sorcerer

- Then the preview with T'challa talking to Ramonda

- Preview continues with MA. The old woman cries that the Panther no longer protects them like the old days. MA decide they need an army.

- Shuri spirit walk time. Discusses stuff rom the pre-vibranium age.

- T'challa hunts Zenzi and finds Zenzi and Tetu both. Punks some goons, blasts Zenzi with a force push, brings in the Dogs of War, and then gets stopped by Tetu who uses magic plant root stuff

T'challa is stopped by plants.

- Tetu lectures him on his failures (mentions Namor, Doom War, Shuri) and leaves

- the MA go to the white gorilla tribe and recruit their army it seems...is that M'baku? EDIT: nevermind, not M'baku, lord Mandla? who the hell is that and why not jsut use M'baku?



Sigh... I need to take a step back before I start ranting.

Once again, T'challa is a side character, once again loses liek an idiot, once again lectured for his failures

sigh

I'm with you man, got dayum this series sucks! Coates has no clue, NONE! Don't like one issue I've read, best thing about this issue is the variant with T'challa all over Storm. None of that in the story though, just the wack ass Midnight Daughters I care nothing about
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: The Wakandan on June 29, 2016, 04:53:44 pm
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

I was about to say, M'Baku was dead until very, very recently. Perhaps Mandla is M'Baku's successor?

As for M'Baku not being in Wakanda, or specifically this book, I have no clue. Perhaps he wasn't alive while the script was being done, as you mentioned.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2016, 05:37:19 pm
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

I was about to say, M'Baku was dead until very, very recently. Perhaps Mandla is M'Baku's successor?

As for M'Baku not being in Wakanda, or specifically this book, I have no clue. Perhaps he wasn't alive while the script was being done, as you mentioned.
That and Coates stated he wasn't going  use a character name man ape.
Unless plot twist M'Baku becomes a ally to T'Challa to bring Wakanda back to a good place before he tries o betray him again, killing himself n the process
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on June 30, 2016, 06:16:15 am
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

I was about to say, M'Baku was dead until very, very recently. Perhaps Mandla is M'Baku's successor?

As for M'Baku not being in Wakanda, or specifically this book, I have no clue. Perhaps he wasn't alive while the script was being done, as you mentioned.
That and Coates stated he wasn't going  use a character name man ape.
Unless plot twist M'Baku becomes a ally to T'Challa to bring Wakanda back to a good place before he tries o betray him again, killing himself n the process


Doubt it. Eden is coming to help for some reason, probably to drop some more spiritual mumbo jumbo.

It would actually make sense for Hunter to come back. This reeks of something Hunter could help with. COMMAND ME! Coates probably hates Hunter too though
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on June 30, 2016, 07:45:26 am
What difference does a name make thought?


He still put a black guy in a monkey suit. Whether his name was "Lord M'baku" or "Lord Mandla" seems irrelevant if you think the very idea of a black dude in a monkey suit is offensive.

Maybe he didn't get the memo M'baku was alive by the time he did the script?

Or maybe he needs someone "new" to fit his story?

I was about to say, M'Baku was dead until very, very recently. Perhaps Mandla is M'Baku's successor?

As for M'Baku not being in Wakanda, or specifically this book, I have no clue. Perhaps he wasn't alive while the script was being done, as you mentioned.
That and Coates stated he wasn't going  use a character name man ape.
Unless plot twist M'Baku becomes a ally to T'Challa to bring Wakanda back to a good place before he tries o betray him again, killing himself n the process


Doubt it. Eden is coming to help for some reason, probably to drop some more spiritual mumbo jumbo.

It would actually make sense for Hunter to come back. This reeks of something Hunter could help with. COMMAND ME! Coates probably hates Hunter too though

Yea i don't expect M'Baku to make an actual appearance lol. Though Ironically he would fit perfectly well into the Story Coates is moving toward with talk of the old ways.. right up M'Baku's alley.

I would love for Hunter to show up now too, T'Challa busting hunter out of whatever prison he is in and together the BP an the WW go hunting. It would be VERY interesting to see how that would play out
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Kimoyo on June 30, 2016, 05:53:55 pm
At this point, Hickmans Tchalla is miles ahead pf Coates ineffectual Tchalla.

Coates at least had Tchalla physically not a piece of sh*t. He at least stomped goons like they were, well, goons and displayed various useful tech.

Hickmans tchalla woukdnt stare at Tetu dancing and then get restrained by plants. Nor get hit by an rpg.

God, cant believe im advocating Hickmans panther. Yeesh

Good Brother MoS, Coates' Panther is Hickman's Panther.  Coates has done nothing with T'Challa to date but make him introspective about all the crap with which Hickman saddled him.  By the way, Hickman's Panther rarely did anything of consequence on panel.  In that regard "Coates'" Panther has already been more physical in three issues than Hickman's was in three years!

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: stanleyballard on June 30, 2016, 05:57:54 pm
Read it and liked the flow and skill of Coates and crew.  Feel he is writing him in a dark place to get the readers to cheer for his return to being The Black Panther....there have always been issues with The Dora Milaje but Wakanda has been defeated by Thanos and Doom so now the landscape has changed.  Coates is wisely showing T'Challa rebuild without a perfect Hollywood feel....it's brutally real and inspired
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on July 01, 2016, 05:13:17 am
At this point, Hickmans Tchalla is miles ahead pf Coates ineffectual Tchalla.

Coates at least had Tchalla physically not a piece of sh*t. He at least stomped goons like they were, well, goons and displayed various useful tech.

Hickmans tchalla woukdnt stare at Tetu dancing and then get restrained by plants. Nor get hit by an rpg.

God, cant believe im advocating Hickmans panther. Yeesh

Good Brother MoS, Coates' Panther is Hickman's Panther.  Coates has done nothing with T'Challa to date but make him introspective about all the crap with which Hickman saddled him.  By the way, Hickman's Panther rarely did anything of consequence on panel.  In that regard "Coates'" Panther has already been more physical in three issues than Hickman's was in three years!

Peace,

Mont

At the very least, Hickman's BP would throttle goons. He did it in the first issue and other times as well. Coates BP getting jumped by miners, goon slammed by Gary, and taking RPG to the face (all in some dumb effort to prop up this dumb ass force push suit). Hickman also brought some, misguided IMO, but interesting tech with the force field, teleportation, brought back the daggers, and the glow claws. Not to mention building a cage that could hold a herald of galactus.

And, its hard to look back now since we know how it ended, Hickman's Panther didn't get off putting until later in the book. In the beginning, you could justify some stuff. The weight on the incursions was real. Bringing in the Illuminati was a stretch but I could justify it initially. Threatening the kill Namor after he wasn't useful... thats classic Panther. Mind wiping Steve for the greater good, sure. Building bombs, blowing up dead planets, good, sure we are on our way.

It wasn't until like... a year or so into it that things started to look suspect. Then we had "the cry" which, I know what they were going for, but was handled incorrectly and out of character. Then hickman so botched the Namor thing that it poisons the whole run.

Coates run was suspect from the world GO. There is no redeeming qualities to this T'challa. He hasn't had a single "fun" moment. No cool feats. Acting like a fool. Its Panther's Rage all over again, except the audience/fans have "upgraded" since then. McGregors fallin on his ass Panther isn't fun after you have seen Priest, Hudling, SWaD, Liss, EMH, MCU Panther. This would be like putting Stark in his Mark 1 armor.

And even worse... Coates is muddying up Wakanda. The same Wakanda that wouldn't give the cure for XYZ because they are better than the rest. Supposed to be afro futurism, and instead its stereotypical Discovery channel Africa.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Metro on July 01, 2016, 12:51:46 pm

Could similar criticism have been raised about "The Client" after 3 issues?
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Salustrade on July 01, 2016, 03:46:03 pm

Could similar criticism have been raised about "The Client" after 3 issues?

If Priest had launched T'Challa as a failure right from the very first issue of his run then yes, the criticism would have been similar and fully justified.

Coates as a writer, clearly stated that writing a BP book was not something he was interested in as opposed to Spiderman or the X-men, so this whole false narrative rings hollow to be quite frank.

Coates is writing T'Challa as a fool and genuinely flummoxed tactical imbecile.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Metro on July 01, 2016, 04:38:41 pm

hm. In "The Client," he took his staff to Brooklyn to investigate the death of a child, while all of Wakanda struggled with a border war (and Achebe effectively seized control of the capitol).  By issue 3, he was still running around Mephisto's maze -- arguably foolish, even imbecilic, to an unfamiliar audience.

Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Kimoyo on July 01, 2016, 07:09:09 pm
So interesting to see the disparity of opinion among articulate, intelligent brothers who are fans of the same character!  What I would love to see, is a return to the monthly, one shot story with an occasional two-parter and definitive resolution.  Let creators with "high-brow" concepts, requiring more than four issues/months to unfold and arrive at a conclusion, satisfactory or not, construct their story for publishing as a TPB/Annual that could be consumed and evaluated at the purchaser's discretion.  Let aspiring creators with responsible editors give paying customers the monthly satisfaction of seeing their favorite character excel, succeed, triumph!  Awww, what am I going on about?  That's never gonna happen!?!  :-[

Peace,

Mont

Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Blanks on July 02, 2016, 03:16:23 am
For all that crap-talk Priest had to say about the Panther mythos in the Civil War movie, I would just love to hear his thoughts on how Coates is dumping on his legacy now.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on July 02, 2016, 06:38:17 am

hm. In "The Client," he took his staff to Brooklyn to investigate the death of a child, while all of Wakanda struggled with a border war (and Achebe effectively seized control of the capitol).  By issue 3, he was still running around Mephisto's maze -- arguably foolish, even imbecilic, to an unfamiliar audience.

Well, that is a weird way to look at it. Very weird. And ignoring the fact that Priest had to undo "get his ass kicked T'challa" that was prevalent in Avengers and Jungle Action and make him actually... cool and a threat.

Priest Issue #1: T'challa walks up to a group of gangsters, threatens them, electrocutes there car, drags their leader out of the car while his teenage sidekicks kick the other dudes ass, goes from business suit to panther suit in a panel, lets dude stab him which breaks his knife, takes him by his hair, drags him up a building, and tells him he owns him (while showing off the daggers, more tech and the kymoyo). And then, we get a Mephisto tease as well, a high level, prevalent, big time villain.

Yes... he left Wakanda while a skirmish was going on, but you are looking at it as if its a negative. You could look at it like its a positive because T'challa was so honorable and noble that he couldn't let this girl die, under wakanda's name, without vengeance. AKA, the direct opposite of Coates "ignorinng rape" sh*t. And goign meta, t'challa had to learn who was trying to unsurp his rule as we found out later. He needed to know all the people behind it.

Priest Issue #2: Much, much slower and more set up (you can tell Priest needed to capture the audience at the word go with #1). But, we get more Mephisto set up, see Panther kicking gang ass to find out what happened, get more of supporting cast, and then figure out the man behind it... Achebe.

This issue would be more like a "Coates" issue... except for the fact T'challa wasn't getting his ass handed to him and wasn't walking around depressed. He was goign around like a man on a mission.

Priest #3: Finishes out the gangsta/dead girl stuff. We learn more about the villains here, as Priest is starting ot play the long game. And we get backstory on what made T'challa T'challa. Future set up with Malice. Splash page to end is even more villains... the HZ.



This doesn't compare to Coates run at all. The two T'challa's couldn't be more different.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Kimoyo on July 02, 2016, 07:13:09 am
True, CJP and Coates' T'Challa are very different, night and day! 

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Rurouni KJS on July 02, 2016, 07:37:28 am

hm. In "The Client," he took his staff to Brooklyn to investigate the death of a child, while all of Wakanda struggled with a border war (and Achebe effectively seized control of the capitol).  By issue 3, he was still running around Mephisto's maze -- arguably foolish, even imbecilic, to an unfamiliar audience.

Well, that is a weird way to look at it. Very weird. And ignoring the fact that Priest had to undo "get his ass kicked T'challa" that was prevalent in Avengers and Jungle Action and make him actually... cool and a threat.

Priest Issue #1: T'challa walks up to a group of gangsters, threatens them, electrocutes there car, drags their leader out of the car while his teenage sidekicks kick the other dudes ass, goes from business suit to panther suit in a panel, lets dude stab him which breaks his knife, takes him by his hair, drags him up a building, and tells him he owns him (while showing off the daggers, more tech and the kymoyo). And then, we get a Mephisto tease as well, a high level, prevalent, big time villain.

Yes... he left Wakanda while a skirmish was going on, but you are looking at it as if its a negative. You could look at it like its a positive because T'challa was so honorable and noble that he couldn't let this girl die, under wakanda's name, without vengeance. AKA, the direct opposite of Coates "ignorinng rape" sh*t. And goign meta, t'challa had to learn who was trying to unsurp his rule as we found out later. He needed to know all the people behind it.

Priest Issue #2: Much, much slower and more set up (you can tell Priest needed to capture the audience at the word go with #1). But, we get more Mephisto set up, see Panther kicking gang ass to find out what happened, get more of supporting cast, and then figure out the man behind it... Achebe.

This issue would be more like a "Coates" issue... except for the fact T'challa wasn't getting his ass handed to him and wasn't walking around depressed. He was goign around like a man on a mission.

Priest #3: Finishes out the gangsta/dead girl stuff. We learn more about the villains here, as Priest is starting ot play the long game. And we get backstory on what made T'challa T'challa. Future set up with Malice. Splash page to end is even more villains... the HZ.



This doesn't compare to Coates run at all. The two T'challa's couldn't be more different.
man, I'm glad you said it. People done FORGOT
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on July 02, 2016, 11:57:23 am
I just want to see the retaliation from T'Challa, and I want to know how Coates is going to portray him when he is operating at 100% because that's going to be a true indication of how he is perceived. Right now the distracted thing is kinda a cover (but need's to kinda subside,and should of after that pep talk) He should of gotten a victory and captured Zenzi, even if he wasn't able to capture Tetu, he should of gotten her. I will still say bad on Coates for that missed opportunity. But act two and beyond will be a big indication of how Coates is going tonhave T'Challa behave
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on July 02, 2016, 02:13:04 pm
Too busy with poems for that sh*t.

Dude wastes panel space for a poem

Wish this was a OGN
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Ezyo on July 03, 2016, 01:35:18 pm
Too busy with poems for that sh*t.

Dude wastes panel space for a poem

Wish this was a OGN

OGN?
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: MindofShadow on July 03, 2016, 01:41:51 pm
Graphic novel
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: supreme illuminati on July 03, 2016, 04:01:59 pm
Finally read the issue. This is a surprisingly difficult issue to critic.

On one hand, purely from a writing standpoint, this issue, imho, was definitely the best issue of the current run so far. Even though it served more as a build-up, the story moved forward and the writing flowed much better this time around. The art by Stelfreeze and Laura Martin were on point once again.

That said, if one was looking for a "Black Panther" issue--as in an issue focused on T'Challa, his ups and downs, etc--this is not it. If this was called "Wakanda," then this would fit right in. It def feels like he's a co-star at best for the time being.

There is also a lot of moving parts in this issue. My thoughts on each subplot are in the spoiler tag.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
-T'Challa's journey isn't..."bad" per se (although his portrayal is definitely NOT where it should be), but there isn't enough of it so far. This is important especially when his plot is getting and will continue to have more deconstruction. If this keeps up, I just don't know how he'll be able to get that "W" he really needs moving forward. Coates has to balance it out at some point.

-The MA plot is moving surprisingly slowly considering the amount of panel space its taking. It either needs to pick up or be cut down a bit. Also, it appears that Aneka and Ayo gathered a lot of Dora Milaje in their final panel? How did they pull that off? Did the other Doras abandon the Kingdom as well?

Lastly, I still can't get over the apparent fact that the Kingdom, despite everything that has happened, isn't on high alert and thus has been ignoring (intentionally or not) human trafficking ops and the like. If there was a panel showing that Wakandan resources are being used to "put fires out" throughout the country the best they can, that would be one thing. At the moment, it doesn't feel like it, nor has been stated as well implicitly besides T'Challa and / or another character saying that Wakanda is going through stuff. A lot of telling, but not enough showing, imho.

-Tetu and Zenzi (and Tetu in particular) had a good showing. I'm assuming we'll see more of Tetu's powerset as time goes on.

-Shuri's journey is still a wildcard and is actually quite intriguing. It appears she'll be leaning even more towards the traditional ways. I'm curious on how it all ties to the main plot, outside of her potentially being revived.

In short, #3 is an improvement compared to the previous two issues. But I think Ture has summed up my thoughts on the run so far...

Coates is writing a good multi faceted  story, it just not a good multi faceted Black Panther story...




The above post by The Wakandan pretty much sums up my thoughts...except I want to shed a little extra ILLUMINATION on a few points:

1. Tetu seems to be something like a blend of avatars for the Orishas Osain and Ochossi. Coates probably didn't create Tetu to be akin to an avatar for any Orisha, but...his powers he has thus far displayed, his inclination toward philosophical thought and moral strength, read very much like a blend between these two. He also reads very much like a avatar of ASH, the ancient Egyptian deity of the oasis and vineyards. The opening vision of Tetu and his spiritual alignment dance movements looked very much like medu neter movements aligned with the deity [ likely miscalled by modern Europeans ] "ASH".

And dances dedicated to Agayu, if I keep it 100.

Blend Ash, Osain, and Ochossi? You get a very close approximation of Tetu. And if that's the case? Tetu is very powerful. Very powerful. He could go toe to toe with Doctor Strange at Strange's most powerful. He could lock horns with Doctor Voodoo ;no problem. And the roots that restrained TChalla would be Earth Magic roots, imbued with a power that takes powerful magicks to break. This same Earth Magic could also be imbued with Entrapment magics, as these roots have been said to have trapped very powerful old magick demons in the bowels of the earth amidst immense interlocked weblike root catacombs. These demons...being immensely stronger than T'Challa is...had no chance whatsoever of breaking the binding grips of the Earth Magic Roots. So I could see how neither TChalla nor the Hatute Zeraze could generate sufficient superhuman strength to break free, either.

What I don't see is how TChalla wouldn't've teleported right out of that. Or at least tried, failed, analyzed the entrapping energies Tetu used, countered it with a techno-ka particle energy Ward Matrix adapting via Osheru dimension mathematics based upon the Eye of Osheru spiral wave algorithms [ drawn from the same architectural and 3D canon known to Europeans as the Eye of Horus size/width/depth/length base unit used for building structures like the pyramids ]. I don't see how T'Challa wouldn't've prepped for such a "surprise" pulled by Tetu.  I don't see how The Dogs of War could be prepped for ole girl Zezi now but wasn't ready for her before...and why this prep couldn't/wouldn't be spread to all of Wakanda's internal defense forces virtually instantly [ Wakanda, remember, is one of the premier examples of theoretical tech in the MU ].


The writing in this issue, as The Wakandan pointed out, was the best in the series thus far. It flowed better. The pacing was better. I see a rather sweet return for Shuri. A rather freakin sweet return...which in and of itself could presage even more serious questions for TChalla's development as a character.

See. What if Shuri does her Ancestral Walkabout [ which is essentially what she's doing in The Djalia ] and returns as The Great Queen? She could very well become the SUPERIOR spiritual expression of all that is Wakanda...making her better fit to be Queen of the Realm than T'Challa is to be King of the Wakandas.

It also strikes me that this Djalia experience is different than the canon powers of ruling Panthers being spiritually synced with all preceding Panthers. Because the spirit woman in the Djalia with Shuri specifically stated that she is ALL of Shuri's mothers. She is not specific to Panthers; she is not exclusive of all nonPanthers. This means...that Shuri is expressing a Power that TChalla does not have.

And we are finally seeing a writer [ who isn't me ] explore the specific power and personality and Panther differences between TChalla and Shuri.

Another thing that is really annoying to me...

...TChalla's fighting prowess h2h should be seamlessly synced with his spiritual power and prowess. Remember, in the Contest of Champions post Priest when TChalla fought Captain America? Steve/Cap said that TChalla is "...the ultimate blend of spirit and flesh..." When it's fight time? That's the TChalla that I write.

(http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103165/2871654-cap_vs_bp1.jpg)


(http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/raykongs/CapvsBlackPanther2_zps8a2bf747.jpg)

 In Afrika, all h2h skill is a synergistic holistic expression and must equally manifest in intellectual prowess, personal honorable strength of character, elite education, wells of wisdom, comprehensive cunning, ascension to the throne of the land only after the most rigorous trials imaginable [ initially surpassing in difficulty the Labors of Hercules and probably the source material from which the idea and metaphor for such Labors sprang ] and culminating with the stamp of approval from [ or utterly soul annihilation by ] The Panther God...and/or Panther GODDESS.

Because we have proof that there are TWO Panther Gods. One [ the first we read of in the MU ] is male. The other is Bast [ female ]. And this female/male pairing is exactly in accordance with the precepts and principles set forth by The Ogdoad. Which again...in roundabout fashion...confirms the fact that TChalla [ and Shuri ] should be as formidable in the realms of magicks, psi, ka, etc as they are in h2h combat in any form. Inclusive of tactics, stratagems, and the like.

T'Challa is not being written in the above manner. Failing to do so is imo failing to grasp a fundamental truth about TChalla and all Panthers. Klaw could not have defeated ANY Panther. Including Uncle Syan.

And if TChalla is THIS formidable, then those that seek to task him must ALSO be TRULY formidable. Which makes TChalla's inevitable victory over them all the more satisfying, well deserved, and illustrative of what and who he is.

Something else: Kings are required to be just as adept at DIPLOMACY as they are at war. They must needs be as skilled in suasion as they are unconquerable in combat. Therefore I don't begrudge TChalla's attempts toward diplomacy and minimal use of force. I dislike the fact that TChalla would under any circumstances allow himself to be thrown THIS FAR OFF HIS GAME.

Put bluntly: saving Wakanda is the ultimate expression of how deeply TChalla loves his people, his family and Ororo.

Would Shuri choose to save her own life over that of Wakanda's life? Never. Thus TChalla saving Wakanda is the ultimate incarnation of Shuri's wishes. If TChalla succumbed to Doom's threats on Ororo's life at the cost of ruining Wakanda, Ororo herself would have stuffed a hurricane directly up TChalla's sphincter. Etc. Doom and Tetu seeking to denigrate TChalla by bringing these instances up as proof of TChalla's ineffectualness are ACTUALLY underscoring just how much neither of them understand who TChalla is...or what being a good King means.

Here's hoping that Coates and Stelfreeze remind both of the above mentioned men about allat via TChalla and Shuri scoring clean cut dominating victories over them both.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: Salustrade on July 03, 2016, 05:10:17 pm
Cloud cuckoo land is real.
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: supreme illuminati on July 04, 2016, 05:55:17 pm
Cloud cuckoo land is real.

Meaning?
Title: Re: Black Panther #3 SPOILERS and Discussion...
Post by: True Father 7 on August 03, 2016, 11:01:31 am
So interesting to see the disparity of opinion among articulate, intelligent brothers who are fans of the same character!  What I would love to see, is a return to the monthly, one shot story with an occasional two-parter and definitive resolution.  Let creators with "high-brow" concepts, requiring more than four issues/months to unfold and arrive at a conclusion, satisfactory or not, construct their story for publishing as a TPB/Annual that could be consumed and evaluated at the purchaser's discretion.  Let aspiring creators with responsible editors give paying customers the monthly satisfaction of seeing their favorite character excel, succeed, triumph!  Awww, what am I going on about?  That's never gonna happen!?!  :-[

Peace,

Mont

lol