Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Panther Politics => Topic started by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 12:31:22 am

Title: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 12:31:22 am
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9770/mightyavengerslq0.jpg)



But talking about Black Avengers= racist, segregative and bad

Gotcha...

Just making sure.

Gotta love the larger comic-buying demographic!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on February 05, 2007, 06:06:50 am
uh... is wonder man human?
cuz he's colored red when in his ionic form, right?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 06:29:33 am
uh... is wonder man human?
cuz he's colored red when in his ionic form, right?

Something happened to him. because he should be able to fly. 

SPOILER ALERT















I know in a recent issue of Frontline he suffered major injuries from the Goblins bombs and we haven't seen teh repercussions yet.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on February 05, 2007, 06:39:30 am
you know, you're right?
why IS the sentry holding him?

and his new playboy outfit isn't becoming of a superhero.
he looks like he is auditioning for "hart to hart 2007" or somethin'.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Rockscissorspaper on February 05, 2007, 07:10:00 am
and his new playboy outfit isn't becoming of a superhero.

He's had that outfit at least since the early 80's. He also couldn't fly back then...without a rocket pack he wore on his belt. He seems to have regressed back to that state (minus rocket pack).
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on February 05, 2007, 08:25:13 am
SEE?

now this is a political thread
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hypestyle on February 05, 2007, 03:36:12 pm
I remember for his early 90's solo series Wonder Man ditched the beltpods and started leaping to get around.. then of course he died in FORCE WORKS, and was thankfully brought back in Busiek's Avengers..  I guess we'll see what happened to him-- FWIW, I fail to see how Osborn's pumpkin bombs would affect him that drastically.. (but I didn't see the issue.. hmmm..)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 03:46:47 pm
and his new playboy outfit isn't becoming of a superhero.
he looks like he is auditioning for "hart to hart 2007" or somethin'.

you said hart to hart lol
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 04:06:55 pm
BTW this may be a political discussion but is it really "Panther Politics?"
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JRCarter on February 05, 2007, 06:24:23 pm
Speaking of Black Avengers:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=99532

Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on February 05, 2007, 06:29:22 pm
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 05, 2007, 06:43:34 pm
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
That is exactly the point.  Why should 90% of them be white?  What is that supposed to be representative of?  Must be somebody's fantasy because it is not representative of the US or the world.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument let's accept your premise of 100 characters, 90 white.  If 6 were chosen randomly, there is only a 52% chance they would all be white.  That is, even with the 90% white hypothesis, nearly half the 6 member teams formed should have at least one minority member.  If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 07:11:15 pm
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.

and out of those "10" how many know each other, live in the same areas and/or worked with one another at some point. 

Avengers:
Falcon
Luke Cage
Monica Rambeau
Triatholon
Rage (never a full member)
Black Panther

Heroes for Hire:
Luke Cage
Misty Knight

New Warriors:
Night Thrasher
Silhouette
Bandit
Rage
Aegis
Debrii

The Crew:
Kasper Cole
Rhodey
Josiah X

Harlem Connection:
Luke Cage, Falcon, Debrii (maybe), Kasper Cole

New Orleans Connection:
Monica Rambeau, Brother Voodoo

Non-Superhero Team Comic Book Team up:
Black Panther, Falcon, Luke Cage, Goliath (kinda)
Black Panther, Brother Voodoo, Blade, Luke Cage
Black Panther, Night Thrasher
Black Panther, Storm
Storm, Misty Knight, Luke Cage
Brother Voodoo, Blade
Falcon, Kasper Cole

Interpersonal relationship:
Brother Voodoo and Blade have worked together on more than one occasion. <---BV and Blade buddy book?????
Just about everyone has worked with and/or likes Black Panther.
Luke Cage dated Goliath's ex-wife
Bandit and Silhouette were an item (maybe still are).
Misty Knight was Jean Grey's roommate.  Storm was Jean Grey's best friend.
Luke Cage and Misty Knight are both good friends of Iron Fist (and maybe dated?)


I could go on.

The point is that a team-up of 3 would be more highly probable that 3 random white heroes due to the fact there are less degrees of separation.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 07:15:39 pm
There are so many unused Black superheroes out there that it is ashame that MArvel won't try something different. 

Nope Sorry Black Panther isn't enough. Can I get another Wakandan title? Something.

The thing is I don't just want new Black superheroes, I want old heroes that seemed interesting to do SOMETHING.

Silhouette
BV
Monica Rambeau
Debrii
Bandit
Josiah X
etc.


I yelled out loud when I saw Brother Voodoo in BP #24.  I'm not lying.  I just couldn't help it.  I almost had a heart attack when I saw Silhouette actually doing something in Iron Man #14.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on February 05, 2007, 07:28:30 pm
I admit I would love Monica to be on the Avengers and out of Nextwave which I hate, but when choosing between wonderman and Debrii, the answer is pretty obvious.  Personally, I have no idea who Silhouette or Bandit are, and as a result, would much rather have someone like Herc on the team. ( think he got shafted after being a big part of Caps CW team).  You might like the characters, and they may be good (I don't know) but they couldn't sustain their own title and probably would not be a good fit in the Avengers.

I'm not saying it is right that in the past, the popular characters were white (or at least much more white characters were introduced).  As a result there is a good chance most on the avengers would be white.  I would like to wish Sentry never existed past his original mini.  I wouldn't mind monica taking his spot.  But I'd also like Thor or Hawkeye there.

I always liked the line up Busiek made which was Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Vision, SW, Hawkeye, and Wonderman
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 05, 2007, 08:04:18 pm
I'm not saying it is right that in the past, the popular characters were white (or at least much more white characters were introduced).  As a result there is a good chance most on the avengers would be white. 
Sure, but most is not the same as all.  One of the things that bugs me about the comics world, and really just about any fictional world presented as mainstream, is the simple presumption that the 90% white world shown is "right".  Even if it's set in New York City.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 05, 2007, 09:11:55 pm
I admit I would love Monica to be on the Avengers and out of Nextwave which I hate, but when choosing between wonderman and Debrii, the answer is pretty obvious.  Personally, I have no idea who Silhouette or Bandit are, and as a result, would much rather have someone like Herc on the team. ( think he got shafted after being a big part of Caps CW team).  You might like the characters, and they may be good (I don't know) but they couldn't sustain their own title and probably would not be a good fit in the Avengers.

I'm not saying it is right that in the past, the popular characters were white (or at least much more white characters were introduced).  As a result there is a good chance most on the avengers would be white.  I would like to wish Sentry never existed past his original mini.  I wouldn't mind monica taking his spot.  But I'd also like Thor or Hawkeye there.

I always liked the line up Busiek made which was Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Vision, SW, Hawkeye, and Wonderman

You are mentioning characters that I didn't state were Avengers. Bandit was not an Avenger, he was a New Warrior.  I just listed a number of Black superheroes in general.  Yes most of the Avengers and overall superheroes are White.  Personally I don't want a Black "Avengers" team perse.  I don't want a Black team that has anything to do with the Avengers name or title.  That is a generic name given for an "all star" Black superhero team.  But as far as the actual Black Avengers that I mentioned, you HAVE heard of them. 

Nevertheless the point of the post was the fact that discussing an all Black team is something considered negative but an all White team can exist without much condemnation, particularly concerning the fact that they are all white.  Furthermore the fact that when a Black hero takes the leadership role of a team, the team now becomes "Ghetto."  It's a double standard.  The number of white heroes to black heroes doesn't make a difference when the Black heroes all know each other and have worked with one another before and in many cases are very good friends.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Marvelous on February 06, 2007, 02:06:41 am
How about we get more creative teams in the industry and make a super team of color that doesn't have to ride the coattail of an already popular superhero team.  Why put the word "black" on already popular or not so popular comics that started out being prodominately white.  Black Avengers, Black New Warriors, Black Defenders, Black JLA, Black Birds of Prey, Black Archie and Jughead sounds like creators can't come up with a name for a team of color and put "black" in it for a quick fix.  Stan Lee made mutants cause he was short on ideas, he just called them mutants that are born with powers so he didnt have to come up with origins.  Do we need black in the names of heroes of color or teams in the CB industry.  Personally if they made a Black Avengers I'd be pissed, sorry ya'll, these mugs can be more creative than that up there in NYC.  Just don't throw Black on a title to sell that $#!t to me.  Milestone baby Milestone.

/end of rant, flames below...   ;)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 06, 2007, 06:09:46 am
How about we get more creative teams in the industry and make a super team of color that doesn't have to ride the coattail of an already popular superhero team.  Why put the word "black" on already popular or not so popular comics that started out being prodominately white.  Black Avengers, Black New Warriors, Black Defenders, Black JLA, Black Birds of Prey, Black Archie and Jughead sounds like creators can't come up with a name for a team of color and put "black" in it for a quick fix.  Stan Lee made mutants cause he was short on ideas, he just called them mutants that are born with powers so he didnt have to come up with origins.  Do we need black in the names of heroes of color or teams in the CB industry.  Personally if they made a Black Avengers I'd be pissed, sorry ya'll, these mugs can be more creative than that up there in NYC.  Just don't throw Black on a title to sell that $#!t to me.  Milestone baby Milestone.

/end of rant, flames below...   ;)

Exactly check the sig =D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: KOSLOX on February 06, 2007, 08:35:13 am
I say this in nearly every board I post on at one point or another.  But we really need The Crew back.  What Brian Bendis has planned for New Avengers sounds exactly like the type of issues the crew would deal with.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Vic Vega on February 06, 2007, 09:13:48 am
What's really bugging me is the constant assertion  on the "other boards" that such a teaming would be "forced" and "artificial".

I've lived and worked in NYC all my life and have never been the lone "Black Guy". Most work places here are fairly well intergrated save for the top echalons and certain types of positions.

How you could set team books(the superhero's workplace) in Manhattan and not have one Black or Hispanic character is beyond me.

I have also noticed that Yaw's point about the Black superhero community (in Marvel) being fairly closeknit gets willfully ingnored on those "other boards" for the most part no matter how you repeat yourself. 

But it IS what they are used to however, so...

     
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: In_Spirit on February 06, 2007, 10:03:59 am
Ah just face it.  The majority of comic readership is white, thus that is where the money is.  In the white readership.  So of course they'll be catered to more than most.  As for these nameless others on other boards.  Well, they've grown up reading, watching and for the most part interacting in a world that reflects their image.  So of course anything outside that is going to seem alien and strange and must imediately be pigeonholed and deemed "bad".

Comics is about fantasy, escapist fantasy at that and fantasy at it's heart is all about empowerment.  Whether it be nerds, minorities, women or homosexuals.  It's designed to make it's targeted reader feel empowered and safe in a world where they are the uber-alpha.  So if the targeted audience is the white male then the white male will be at the top and everyone else will be lesser to some degree.  Same if the target was the black male, women (whatever their race) etc.

I agree with Marvelous that the solution is to diversify things behind the scenes.  More diverese creators, publishers, marketing executives and what have you , so that a more diverse audience can be drawn into the industry and proven to be just as profitable as the white male audience has.

Then and only then will we see some true diversity across the board.  As of now this industry is way too insular and inbreed to expand like most other businesses.  I feel sorry for any kid that likes a book or character that isn't as popular on the net and they come on-line looking to share their new found love only to be met with the torrent of ignorance and negativity that seems to permeate most boards.

Ah well.  Here's to a better future lads and ladies.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hypestyle on February 06, 2007, 10:17:26 am
Monica in Avengers/NextWave:

Well, in a way, Monica’s energy-travel powers would “allow” her to be on two different teams better than Wolverine.. I remember when the Wally West Flash was on the JLA and the revived Titans for a little while..

I'd like to see Walt Mosley do a Bro. Voodoo miniseries..
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 07, 2007, 02:19:10 pm
Does anyone remember the story where Falcon is made a member of the Avengers as part of a racial quota? Do any of you think that somewhere down the line that Iron Man's Avengers will be forced to incorporate a black superhero or a crimefighter of color?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 07, 2007, 03:21:15 pm
Does anyone remember the story where Falcon is made a member of the Avengers as part of a racial quota? Do any of you think that somewhere down the line that Iron Man's Avengers will be forced to incorporate a black superhero or a crimefighter of color?

Affirmative action is dying as an institutionally enforced practice.  Many people feel that it isn't necessary anymore.  Therefore I doubt that will ever be an issue.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 08, 2007, 02:47:19 pm
Does anyone remember the story where Falcon is made a member of the Avengers as part of a racial quota? Do any of you think that somewhere down the line that Iron Man's Avengers will be forced to incorporate a black superhero or a crimefighter of color?

Affirmative action is dying as an institutionally enforced practice.  Many people feel that it isn't necessary anymore.  Therefore I doubt that will ever be an issue.

Other than Rhodey, I don't see too many Black Marvel Comics' Heroes on the pro-reg side. I thought Battlestar would be pro-reg but he was one of the heroes that was confined to the Negative Zone.

I still feel Affirmative Action is necessary in some circles of society but you're always going to have faults on both sides of the equation.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 08, 2007, 06:54:05 pm
Does anyone remember the story where Falcon is made a member of the Avengers as part of a racial quota? Do any of you think that somewhere down the line that Iron Man's Avengers will be forced to incorporate a black superhero or a crimefighter of color?

Affirmative action is dying as an institutionally enforced practice.  Many people feel that it isn't necessary anymore.  Therefore I doubt that will ever be an issue.

Other than Rhodey, I don't see too many Black Marvel Comics' Heroes on the pro-reg side. I thought Battlestar would be pro-reg but he was one of the heroes that was confined to the Negative Zone.

I still feel Affirmative Action is necessary in some circles of society but you're always going to have faults on both sides of the equation.

How you feel is irrelevant to what greater society wills unfortunately.  :(  I think its necessary as well but mainstream society says NO WAY!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: kitamu Re on February 08, 2007, 10:28:19 pm
Well I do have a voice, and "mighty Avengers" won't be getting a dime of my money >:(
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: bluezulu on February 09, 2007, 08:27:44 am
Well New Avengers was on my pull list because Cage was in it. The New Avengers will continue to get my money because Cage is the leader of the team. The minute and I do mean the minute that their is no significant black presence on the Avenger's roster I won't buy it anymore. I said it on the old forums and I will say it again. There are too many good black characters in marvel to have a team book with out any blacks on the team. If the writer isn't interested in appealing to the WHOLE comic book buying audience then I am not interested in buying their book.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 10, 2007, 03:54:50 pm
Does anyone remember the story where Falcon is made a member of the Avengers as part of a racial quota? Do any of you think that somewhere down the line that Iron Man's Avengers will be forced to incorporate a black superhero or a crimefighter of color?

Affirmative action is dying as an institutionally enforced practice.  Many people feel that it isn't necessary anymore.  Therefore I doubt that will ever be an issue.

Other than Rhodey, I don't see too many Black Marvel Comics' Heroes on the pro-reg side. I thought Battlestar would be pro-reg but he was one of the heroes that was confined to the Negative Zone.

I still feel Affirmative Action is necessary in some circles of society but you're always going to have faults on both sides of the equation.

How you feel is irrelevant to what greater society wills unfortunately.  :(  I think its necessary as well but mainstream society says NO WAY!


That's why We as a people have to make a stand and let our elected officials know how programs such as Affirmative Action are still needed and shouldn't be phased out.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Blanks on February 11, 2007, 05:24:57 am
Well New Avengers was on my pull list because Cage was in it. The New Avengers will continue to get my money because Cage is the leader of the team. The minute and I do mean the minute that their is no significant black presence on the Avenger's roster I won't buy it anymore. I said it on the old forums and I will say it again. There are too many good black characters in marvel to have a team book with out any blacks on the team. If the writer isn't interested in appealing to the WHOLE comic book buying audience then I am not interested in buying their book.

here, here!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 15, 2007, 09:49:52 am
([url]http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9770/mightyavengerslq0.jpg[/url])



But talking about Black Avengers= racist, segregative and bad

Gotcha...

Just making sure.

Gotta love the larger comic-buying demographic!


Welllllll.....SOME of us "gotta love 'em". As for me, I think I'll pass  ;)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 15, 2007, 09:53:03 am
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
That is exactly the point.  Why should 90% of them be white?  What is that supposed to be representative of?  Must be somebody's fantasy because it is not representative of the US or the world.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument let's accept your premise of 100 characters, 90 white.  If 6 were chosen randomly, there is only a 52% chance they would all be white.  That is, even with the 90% white hypothesis, nearly half the 6 member teams formed should have at least one minority member.  If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Thank You, Curtis. Excellent response.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 15, 2007, 11:40:20 am
I don't think you can compare a "white avengers" to a "black avengers."  Say you have 100 characters, 90 of which are white, 10 of which are minority.  There is obviously a good chance that all characters are white, not through choice of skin color but by the numbers.
That is exactly the point.  Why should 90% of them be white?  What is that supposed to be representative of?  Must be somebody's fantasy because it is not representative of the US or the world.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument let's accept your premise of 100 characters, 90 white.  If 6 were chosen randomly, there is only a 52% chance they would all be white.  That is, even with the 90% white hypothesis, nearly half the 6 member teams formed should have at least one minority member.  If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Thank You, Curtis. Excellent response.
Glad to help, sinjection.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Marvelous on February 15, 2007, 12:37:28 pm
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on February 15, 2007, 12:45:30 pm
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

Isn't Rhody War Machine in the Initiative?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JRCarter on February 15, 2007, 05:40:21 pm
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

I should hope so.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Open palm on February 16, 2007, 03:38:09 am
Put him back in the chair! Oh yeah! Cripple him!  :D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 16, 2007, 05:29:44 am
Someone mentioned today that IM is Rhodes cause Tony will be taken down hard in CW7.

Rhodes - in my always humble opinion, of course - would not be doing the already "Tony Stark-tarnished" mantle of Iron Man any favors. Be it in the comic books, the Iron Man animated television program and more recently, the Iron Man Animated Movie, James Rhodes has always come off as whining, selfish and at times in the t.v. Iron Man animated series, downright cowardly.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Toya on February 17, 2007, 06:40:36 pm
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.


If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 18, 2007, 07:01:28 am
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.

How so?


Quote from: Toya
Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?


Well that will be a problem when the writing staff lacks ethnic/racial diversity.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 18, 2007, 11:16:09 am
Really people, really? This thread was good when it was exposing the double standards of the quaking ducks. But in an ironic twist, it has become the very double standard that it was mocking.


If the observable evidence shows a higher incidence of all-white teams -- and I'll go out on a limb here and say that it does -- then the selection processes employed show bias.  What a surprise.

Not all biases are bad. What if those happen to be the characters the writer wants to work with?
I'm not sure I understand your points here, Toya.  My point was that the evidence is different than what one would expect were the selections random which indicates that there is some other selection process going on, i.e. bias.  One cannot conclude based on this alone that that the bias is solely or even primarily racial in nature although the pattern is suggestive. 

I certainly invite you to elaborate on your points if you're so inclined.  Youthful enthusiasm notwithstanding, your views are always interesting.   ;)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Toya on February 18, 2007, 07:48:51 pm
Yaw, Curtis, sorry if I'm was not clear before. I just felt that initially Yaw was exposing the hypocrisy of the quacking ducks who believe that an all black team is bad by showing their praise or lack of objection to an all white team.

But, it sounds like a few of you are saying that all white teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are in fact bad which would lead me to believe that all black teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are bad also. I don't know if you can criticize a system you then use to plead your case, so to speak.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 19, 2007, 01:01:06 am

I'm not sure I understand your points here, Toya.....I certainly invite you to elaborate on your points if you're so inclined.  Youthful enthusiasm notwithstanding, your views are always interesting.   ;)

I must say that I strongly agree with your very accurate opinion of Toya's views and the "interesting", enthusiastic, intelligent and entertaining manner of her presentation of those views. Once again, Toya does not disappoint  :)

Yaw, Curtis, sorry if I'm was not clear before. I just felt that initially Yaw was exposing the hypocrisy of the quacking ducks who believe that an all black team is bad by showing their praise or lack of objection to an all white team.

But, it sounds like a few of you are saying that all white teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are in fact bad which would lead me to believe that all black teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are bad also. I don't know if you can criticize a system you then use to plead your case, so to speak.


Just adding some "sinjection sense" for the two cents it may be worth.....or not  :)

I don't want to take the discussion far afield, get off track, ramble....you know. I don't want to do all of the things I ALWAYS do in nearly every comment I post. If I do so now, please accept my apologies in advance.

Whites comprise the majority of the national population. Whites are the majority of consumers of various forms of entertainment - including comicbooks. Most, if not all, whites believe in "majority rules". Most might not have a problem with diversity as long as it doesn't lead so-called "minority groups" into thinking that assimilation into the predominant -"white" - culture isn't necessary or that it doesn't interfere with the ability of some whites to "borrow" from so-called "minority groups" those cultural concepts, practices, etc... many whites may have some affinity for or place some value upon and wish to incorporate into their own culture. When this "incorporation" or "appropriation" occurs, what was once a cultural concept or practice specific to a particular "minority group" becomes recognized as belonging to the "national culture" and that "national culture" is usually represented by white faces. This phenomena is pleasing to and reassuring to many white people who feel that they should always be represented as being "above all" and foremost in all things.

Many whites appreciate what is often described as "Soul Music" - the various genres of music born of the black American cultural experience. Many whites seem to appreciate "Soul Music" more when the artist performing the music is one of them. Many whites liked Chick Webb, but Benny Goodman was crowned the King of Swing. Many whites liked Fats Domino, Chuck Berry and Little Richard, but Elvis was crowned the King of Rock and Roll. Many whites may bristle when it is suggested that jazz music is the creation of black musical genius. Those whites will claim "co-ownership" of the genre sayiing jazz could not have been created if not for white-invented musical instruments and music theory conventions. What happened when the Jackson 5 emerged? White culture had to answer with the Osmond Brothers. New Kids On The Block...the so-called "boy band" comprised of white boys, created by a black man, as the answer for the youthful R&B performing group, "New Edition". In the past especially, whenever there has been any indication of black success in ANY endeavor, many whites cried out for a "great white hope" to restore their "prestige" in that endeavor. Recently in Illinois, the University of Illinois was forced to retire their 80+ year tradition of dressing up a white male student in a hodgepodge collection of "Indian" garb - which was meant to be pleasing to their eyes, not necessarily an accurate representation of authentic Native American people - and having that white male student jump around in a semblance of a battle dance. The character's name was "Cheif Illiniwek". Many Native Americans were offended by what they saw as a caricature and after long years of trying, were finally successful in getting the "Chief" retired. Many whites are angry. Some say, that "Illiniwek" wasn't meant to be part of Native American culture anyway. The "Cheif" was meant to be their little "fun thing" to do. The character - which was nothing more than a caricature of a "minority group" whose cultural aspects were "borrowed", "incorporated", and "appropriated" by white culture - wasn't meant so much to honor Native Americans as it was to give white people who happened to be fans of the "Fighting Illini" a "symbol" to rally around.

How does this relate to the discussion? The quacking ducks complained about "The Foundation" and "Black" because those groups were comprised of black superhero members only. Some of the ducks quacked, "What would happen if Captain America wanted to join the group?" and other nonsense. What those ducks were exhibiting was their reaction to what appeared to them to be rejection. They were "left out" and didn't like it. However, the characters Yaw and MM chose to comprise their organizations were characters they wanted to work with. For years, comicbooks published the adventures of white people for white people. However, black people and other "minority" people enjoyed those books as well and wished to see characters that reflected their humanity represented. The comicbook industry complied. Yet, because the larger comicbook buying demographic is white, male, often very whiny and more importantly, because they buy most of the books, the industry continues to cater to their tastes. The Black Panther, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Cloak -sans Dagger - etc...don't necessarily appeal to the tastes of the larger comicbook-buying demographic. But does that not mean that these characters or a team comprised of these characters or others like them, should not exist?

Years ago, major sports in the U.S. were closed to black athletes. Jackie Robinson broke baseball's very racist, racial barrier. His performance was outstanding and exemplary. Today, most of major league baseball's star players - though few in number - are black Americans. Hank Aaron holds what is considered by many to be the most prestigious record in American sports, the Homerun Record. This year, we were treated to the first of what I hope will be many more Super Bowls in which both football teams featured black coaches. The NFL is over three quarters black. Rap Music and Hip Hop Kulture were born of black culture. Today, if nothing has changed since I last checked, the larger rap music-buying demographic is white people. As long as white fans of this nation's major sporting endeavors are able to recognize and relate to a prominent white face, they can live with a Lovie Smith. Those white fans can live with a Tony Dungy as long as they are able to convince themselves that Tony Dungy would not have been the first black coach to win a Super Bowl had it not been for Peyton Manning. If Lovie Smith had won, all glory and praise would have gone to Brian Urlacher, Devin Hester's record-setting kickoff return notwithstanding.

In my always humble opinion, this issue of black superhero groups, white superhero groups and "diversity" is taking on an affirmative action, quotas type of feel. Centuries of racism, decades of white preferences made affirmative action necessary. Decades of black characters being ignored, under-utilized and/or always at the service and subservient to their white counterparts is what has given rise to the support for this current Black Panther publication, the marriage of Ororo to T'Challa and the desire to see a superhero group comprised primarily by black characters.

Okay, I'm through. What planet have I moved this discussion to now?  :D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 19, 2007, 05:45:25 am
Let's not forget in the foreseebable future that hispanics will be the majority population. Also, I would like for some writer to take some other crimefighters of color out of limbo like Black Crow and American Eagle and dust them off and put them in a book like The Avengers.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 19, 2007, 05:46:19 am
Yaw, Curtis, sorry if I'm was not clear before. I just felt that initially Yaw was exposing the hypocrisy of the quacking ducks who believe that an all black team is bad by showing their praise or lack of objection to an all white team.

But, it sounds like a few of you are saying that all white teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are in fact bad which would lead me to believe that all black teams (based on any bias, from numbers to writer's choice) are bad also. I don't know if you can criticize a system you then use to plead your case, so to speak.
I see what you mean now, Toya.  I don't know about some of the other posts you are referring to but I was merely refuting the claim that having such a high percentage of all-white teams is merely a matter of numbers.  People can defend the choices made if they like but they cannot claim that the choices are race-neutral as that is false.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 19, 2007, 06:27:45 am
Let's not forget in the foreseebable future that hispanics will be the majority population. Also, I would like for some writer to take some other crimefighters of color out of limbo like Black Crow and American Eagle and dust them off and put them in a book like The Avengers.

True. However, it seems to me that Hispanics are bound primarily by common language. The Hispanic population is racially and ethnically diverse. Sunspot, Arana, White Tiger....(is the Tarantula still around perchance?), seem to be characters that are now being more firmly established or have the best chance to become better established. Black Crow and Puma are both very appealing characters, as is Silverclaw.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Toya on February 19, 2007, 10:01:31 am
I guess my "youthful enthusiasm" excuse is wearing thin; next time I'll marinate more on my thoughts before I express them as half-assed as I've done. My apologies, I misunderstood (I thought that you guys were saying that "90%" of supes being white, or a majority of teams being white was bad).
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on February 20, 2007, 06:37:12 am

I guess my "youthful enthusiasm" excuse is wearing thin; next time I'll marinate more on my thoughts before I express them as half-assed as I've done. My apologies, I misunderstood (I thought that you guys were saying that "90%" of supes being white, or a majority of teams being white was bad).


Never wanting to belabor the point.....really  ;)

Comicbooks and sci-fi adventure/fantasy-type books and movies are aimed primarily toward white males late teens-to-mid-to-late-thirties.....aren't they? 

Rap Music and the "kulture" that spawned it is intrinsically black. Although white youth are the major consumers of Rap music - at least they were when last I checked - it is still recognized that the music and its "kulture" are black driven. Vanilla Ice flamed out badly and embarrassed those white Rap music fans who desperately wanted him to be the answer to Hammer, but white rappers like the Beastie Boys sustained those fans until eminem and others like him (white gangsta and battle rappers), established a "niche of recognition" for the white Rap music fan in Hip Hop Kulture. However, no matter how popular eminem became among white Rap fans and in the Rap music genre itself, his rank in the "Rapper's Heirarchy" never rose above that of Christopher Wallace a.k.a. Notorious B.I.G. or that of Tupac Amaru Shakur. Even if many white Rap music fans believed eminem was better than either or both of those two late greats, most of them seemed to believe it best not to express that sentiment.

White NBA fans began to decry what they described as the "thug, hip hop" nature of the post-Michael Jordan NBA athlete. Although the NBA is a major U.S. and world-recognized sport, the league is dominated by young Black American athletes. To alleviate the white fan's discontent, NBA Commissioner David Stern instituted a dress code which would require the young, black athlete who preferred the baggy jeans, long shirts and jerseys, sneakers (often untied), baseball caps, gold chains, etc... to wear clothing more acceptable to the sensitivities of the white fans who buy the tickets, shirts with collars, well-fitting slacks, dress shoes, no gaudy jewlery, etc...  And so as Allen Iverson begins to fade into just another bad memory for the white NBA fan, they are now able to point to the "good guys" in the league, Carmello Anthony (his brawl episode tarnished him somewhat, but not completely), Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and a bevy of European players which have established a white athletic presence in the league.

"What are you blathering about, sinjection????"

1) Comicbooks are still being written primarily for a white, male audience. Whites were instrumental and influential in the creation of the medium and they are its major consumer. White superheroes, superheroines, superhero teams are expected and accepted. Black superheroes, superheroines, superhero teams are tolerated, ignored and sometimes, even condemned.

2) Rap Music is born of Black culture. White performers and fans in the medium seem to recognize that today, they still have a specific place in the heirarchy of Rap Music and Hip Hop Kulture and it isn't one of dominance as it is in say, the comicbooks industry.

3) The excellence of the black American athlete in basketball has propelled them to dominance in the NBA which after Michael Jordan's exit as a player in that league, took on a decided young, urban black Hip Hop identity which for awhile, the NBA seemed to push as a way of attracting younger fans to the game. Many white NBA fans were put off by the Hip Hop identity and NBA Commissioner David Stern took steps to bring the identity of the NBA back into something more acceptable to the white NBA fan's expectations. White fans buy most of the tickets, you see  :)

4) Finally, in this same vein of comicbooks being geared primarily for white audiences and the NBA Hip Hop "frequency" being "rectified" so that it conformed to the white NBA fan's expectations, David Goyer - producer, director, writer of the Blade movies - said that when he was initially pitching the Blade project to New Line Entertainment, New Line executives asked him if it would be possible to recreate Blade as a white man and to cast a white actor in the starring role for the Blade movies. Apparently, those New Line execs believed that if Blade were recreated as a white man and a white actor was cast in the starring role, the project would be more appealing to white fans.

I'm still looking for those comments and will post them once I find them.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Toya on February 20, 2007, 08:28:03 pm
That was a good read Sinjection, I'm glad you're back. So, you're saying that white entertainment (like movies, comicbooks etc.) producers often appeal to white audiences, their largest and most important demographic. Are you saying also that even when it comes to genres such as rap, that are borne from "black kulture", white folks tend to have a fangasm over white artists and crown them "king of"? Well, I agree on some points but I'd hate to derail it further with a disagreement.

What you didn't answer is whether it is or not a bad thing, in this case comic books, for white entertainers to appeal to their target audience. Unless you did make that point and it went over my head which I'm guessing is the case.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 20, 2007, 10:43:09 pm
What you didn't answer is whether it is or not a bad thing, in this case comic books, for white entertainers to appeal to their target audience. Unless you did make that point and it went over my head which I'm guessing is the case.

it's never been an issue of right or wrong for me.  Personally I think that sort of dichotomy is very much a European cultural concept but I digress...

No it's not wrong for white entertainers/writers to appeal to any target audience.  The issue that is post is making is that there IS a dichotomy set up by that white hegemonic group that catering to one is bad but they do it anyway without considering it.  the scholar Marimba Ani calls it the rhetorical ethic of European culture.  These fanboys will say all day that having a Black team is somehow wrong but they will have a team of all Whites and not think twice about it.  There is nothing wrong with having a team of characters that you like.  However if an author were to create a post-CW team of 4 Black superheroes there would be an outcry of how this is somehow wrong.

like I said before


Might Whitey= Good

Black= Bad

Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 21, 2007, 08:43:48 am
Bam.  What Yaw said.  IAWY.  Cosign, etc.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: The Evasive 1 on February 21, 2007, 11:05:45 am
IAWY
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Vic Vega on February 21, 2007, 03:02:46 pm

I guess my "youthful enthusiasm" excuse is wearing thin; next time I'll marinate more on my thoughts before I express them as half-assed as I've done. My apologies, I misunderstood (I thought that you guys were saying that "90%" of supes being white, or a majority of teams being white was bad).


Never wanting to belabor the point.....really  ;)

Comicbooks and sci-fi adventure/fantasy-type books and movies are aimed primarily toward white males late teens-to-mid-to-late-thirties.....aren't they? 

Rap Music and the "kulture" that spawned it is intrinsically black. Although white youth are the major consumers of Rap music - at least they were when last I checked - it is still recognized that the music and its "kulture" are black driven. Vanilla Ice flamed out badly and embarrassed those white Rap music fans who desperately wanted him to be the answer to Hammer, but white rappers like the Beastie Boys sustained those fans until eminem and others like him (white gangsta and battle rappers), established a "niche of recognition" for the white Rap music fan in Hip Hop Kulture. However, no matter how popular eminem became among white Rap fans and in the Rap music genre itself, his rank in the "Rapper's Heirarchy" never rose above that of Christopher Wallace a.k.a. Notorious B.I.G. or that of Tupac Amaru Shakur. Even if many white Rap music fans believed eminem was better than either or both of those two late greats, most of them seemed to believe it best not to express that sentiment.

White NBA fans began to decry what they described as the "thug, hip hop" nature of the post-Michael Jordan NBA athlete. Although the NBA is a major U.S. and world-recognized sport, the league is dominated by young Black American athletes. To alleviate the white fan's discontent, NBA Commissioner David Stern instituted a dress code which would require the young, black athlete who preferred the baggy jeans, long shirts and jerseys, sneakers (often untied), baseball caps, gold chains, etc... to wear clothing more acceptable to the sensitivities of the white fans who buy the tickets, shirts with collars, well-fitting slacks, dress shoes, no gaudy jewlery, etc...  And so as Allen Iverson begins to fade into just another bad memory for the white NBA fan, they are now able to point to the "good guys" in the league, Carmello Anthony (his brawl episode tarnished him somewhat, but not completely), Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and a bevy of European players which have established a white athletic presence in the league.

If D. Stern wants to improve his league's standing he'd better improve the product he is selling rather than blaming the players.

Its not the PLAYER'S fault that there are too many teams in the NBA diluting the overall product(You cant win a title without two all-star level talent but many team dont even have one now).

Its not the PLAYER'S fault that the season is about 20 games too long. Every game counts in football. That why football gets the ratings it does.

Its not the PLAYER'S fault that the playoffs are too long (go back to 5 game semis) and are all over cable T.V. ensuring only confusison and fan indifference.

END OF RANT. Ahem. Sorry bout that :D

As for the rest, IAWY. While many Whites will deny this kind of cultural hegmony exists, try challenging it even indirectly and see what happens. The terms "Forced" and "segregationist" get thrown about so fast it'll make your head spin.

I've yet to see a poster on Newsrama call the Mighty Avengers "segregationist" however.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hypestyle on February 21, 2007, 04:37:15 pm
is the first issue out yet, or..?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on February 21, 2007, 06:41:35 pm
is the first issue out yet, or..?

not yet.  I might be the only one, but I am looking forward to this book.  Finally an Avengers team with...you know, Avengers on the team.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 24, 2007, 12:52:52 pm
([url]http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9770/mightyavengerslq0.jpg[/url])



But talking about Black Avengers= racist, segregative and bad

Gotcha...

Just making sure.

Gotta love the larger comic-buying demographic!


I just find the idea of superheroes getting together for the expressed purpose of being black to be cheesy.  I'd like to see the few black heroes we have to be built up more on their own instead of being lumped together.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 24, 2007, 03:33:58 pm

I just find the idea of superheroes getting together for the expressed purpose of being black to be cheesy.  I'd like to see the few black heroes we have to be built up more on their own instead of being lumped together.

why oh why oh why, do black heroes have to be together for the sole purpose of being black?  What is this argument even made?  Who in their right mind would make a comic book full of Black heroes that are together for the sole purpose of being black?  Let me reword that. WHat COMPANY in their right mind would expect to profit on a comic book full of heroes who have created team based on the fact of them being black?

There are a myriad of engaging and penetrating stories that could be put together with a team of heroes who band common cause which has nothing to do with the race of their skin despite the fact that they are all Black.  I really wish I people would stop saying that nonsense.  WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT BLACK HEROES JOINED BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK IS LAME! This isn't about why they are together.  The fact remains WE WANT A BLACK TEAM, JUST LIKE THE MYRIAD OF WHITE TEAMS!!!

Fantastic Four (pre-544)
Mighty Avengers
Illuminatti
Excalibur

Sorry if I want an engaging team of characters that happen to look like me.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on February 24, 2007, 05:37:41 pm
I gotta agree with Yaw.  I don't see what's so far fetched about having a black/predominantly black super team.  I don't know where a lot of you live or what many of you do for a living, but working in the field I work in I didn't always see a lot of black faces and when I did, we sort of gravitated towards one another.  Who's to say that Luke Cage, BP, Blade, Monica Rambeau, etc. don't do the same thing.  You see all this weird stuff, and when you're gathered together you see only a handful of heroes who look like you.  Naturally, you'll gravitate to those heroes.  Why is it so far fetched that Cage or BP or Night Thrasher (R.I.P.) wouldn't call up a couple of people who he feels like he can identify with and try to do something for the greater good?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Open palm on February 24, 2007, 07:09:03 pm
Why doesn't Monica join Luke's New Avengers now?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on February 24, 2007, 07:24:54 pm
Why doesn't Monica join Luke's New Avengers now?


Who says she didn't?  Monica is...wait for it...Ronin!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 25, 2007, 01:13:08 pm
Quote
why oh why oh why, do black heroes have to be together for the sole purpose of being black?  What is this argument even made?  Who in their right mind would make a comic book full of Black heroes that are together for the sole purpose of being black?  Let me reword that. WHat COMPANY in their right mind would expect to profit on a comic book full of heroes who have created team based on the fact of them being black?

Wanna chill for a sec?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 25, 2007, 01:17:04 pm
I don't have a problem so much with a black team,  I'd just rather have the heroes that we have now to be more developed as individuals instead of lumping them together. 
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 25, 2007, 01:31:41 pm

Wanna chill for a sec?

the sun don't chill
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 25, 2007, 01:55:19 pm
I don't have a problem so much with a black team,  I'd just rather have the heroes that we have now to be more developed as individuals instead of lumping them together. 

You don't have a problem with a black team? Really? then why is your first response to "talking about Black Avengers" this:

Quote
I just find the idea of superheroes getting together for the expressed purpose of being black to be cheesy.



why do  a team of Avengers who happen to be Black have to be put together for the sole purpose of being Black ?  The Mighty Avengers are stem from Iron Man's Pro-Reg team.  Why are they all white?  What about Bishop?  He said himself in CW 7 that he thought "we were the AVengers".  Xavier's school don't want him.  He sided with Iron MAn against their wishes.  What about Blade?  Marvel wants to help Blade sales?  Make him an Avenger.  Him on the Mighty Whitey team would be very interesting.  That is pure conflict at its best.  Conflict = good. 

How would a team of Monica Rambeau, Triatholon, Silhouette, Debrii, Battlestar, Falcon etc.  being put together for the "expressed purpose of being black?"  They would be an extension of Cap's Anti-Reg team. 

The point I'm trying to make is the marginalization of Black superheroes.  I won't get into why that exists on a societal for Blacks in general (as I have done it so many times on this board already) but I want people to call attention to their own initial reaction to such a discussion of a Black superhero team.  Automatic negative reactions to the idea are telling of the endemic prejudices Western society instills in us concerning Black superheroes.  This goes for any person of any race.  The fact that all-white teams exist with no issue speaks to this problem. 

Astonishing X-men?  all white. 
Mighty Avengers? all white. 
No one cares. 

New Avengers? 1 black man who is the leader. WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn can we even discuss an all Black team when a Black leader of a mixed team heroes causes that much commotion?  I would think an all Black team would be more preferable than Luke Cage telling Wolverine, Spidey and Dr. Strange what to do.  But I guess not.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 25, 2007, 02:36:23 pm
Quote
You don't have a problem with a black team? Really? then why is your first response to "talking about Black Avengers" this:


Quote
I just find the idea of superheroes getting together for the expressed purpose of being black to be cheesy.



why do  a team of Avengers who happen to be Black have to be put together for the sole purpose of being Black ?  The Mighty Avengers are stem from Iron Man's Pro-Reg team.  Why are they all white?  What about Bishop?  He said himself in CW 7 that he thought "we were the AVengers".  Xavier's school don't want him.  He sided with Iron MAn against their wishes.  What about Blade?  Marvel wants to help Blade sales?  Make him an Avenger.  Him on the Mighty Whitey team would be very interesting.  That is pure conflict at its best.  Conflict = good. 


I don't have a problem with the Black team in and of itself, I just don't like the idea of them teaming up JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK.  If that's not the case, and it's a compelling story of why this came about fine, but I think just taking every brother you can find and putting them on a team to be dumb.

Quote
How would a team of Monica Rambeau, Triatholon, Silhouette, Debrii, Battlestar, Falcon etc.  being put together for the "expressed purpose of being black?"  They would be an extension of Cap's Anti-Reg team. 


Because the only reason you bring that roster up is because they're black, not to mention noone's gonna read that.  You're so hard up for the black team than the "Expressed Purpose of being black" permeates through almost every point you try to make on this.

Quote
The point I'm trying to make is the marginalization of Black superheroes.  I won't get into why that exists on a societal for Blacks in general (as I have done it so many times on this board already) but I want people to call attention to their own initial reaction to such a discussion of a Black superhero team.  Automatic negative reactions to the idea are telling of the endemic prejudices Western society instills in us concerning Black superheroes.  This goes for any person of any race.  The fact that all-white teams exist with no issue speaks to this problem. 

Astonishing X-men?  all white. 
Mighty Avengers? all white. 
No one cares. 

New Avengers? 1 black man who is the leader. WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love the idea of Cage as a leader and when they start with that comic you can be sure I'll be on it.  That's what I want, more development of our heroes as individuals before you bring in a whole team.  I wanna see Panther and Cage get more into the forefront as heroes that just taking them and everybody else and putting them on team.  With Panther doing well, Cage stepping up, and more and more black heroes getting some first string love, it'll pave the way for that black team along the lines of your FF or MA.

Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 25, 2007, 03:56:08 pm

I don't have a problem with the Black team in and of itself, I just don't like the idea of them teaming up JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK.  If that's not the case, and it's a compelling story of why this came about fine, but I think just taking every brother you can find and putting them on a team to be dumb.

There are plenty of stories of how/why a team of Black heroes can get together.  Again you are making the assumption that if a writer decides to make a team of Black heroes then there will be no compelling story behind the team up and it will solely be due to them getting together with the expressed purpose of being Black.  "Hey guys let's team up cuz we're Black and we need to stick together!!!!"  Yeah right. 

check the sig...

Quote
Because the only reason you bring that roster up is because they're black, not to mention noone's gonna read that.  You're so hard up for the black team than the "Expressed Purpose of being black" permeates through almost every point you try to make on this.


Really?  If I name a team of heroes that I would like to see teamed up and they all happen to be Black then its because they are together for the "expressed purpose of being black?"  Interesting...  So when writers have historically and continue to make teams with all-white rosters, its not just because they LIKE those characters and choose to develop them?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 25, 2007, 05:44:40 pm
Quote
There are plenty of stories of how/why a team of Black heroes can get together.  Again you are making the assumption that if a writer decides to make a team of Black heroes then there will be no compelling story behind the team up and it will solely be due to them getting together with the expressed purpose of being Black.  "Hey guys let's team up cuz we're Black and we need to stick together!!!!"  Yeah right. 


I said if the story supported it, I would be fine with it.  But with so many voices on the board it seems to be a big demand to see every prominent black superhero lumped into a group.  That comes off as forced to me.  If that's not where you're coming from then what I said doesn't apply to you.

Quote
Really?  If I name a team of heroes that I would like to see teamed up and they all happen to be Black then its because they are together for the "expressed purpose of being black?"

I dunno, are you naming the members of this team because they're black?  Does Longshot have a chance?

Quote
Interesting...  So when writers have historically and continue to make teams with all-white rosters, its not just because they LIKE those characters and choose to develop them?

I don't really care about the white teams.  I want to see the heroes we got developed more as individuals.  The Panther doesn't need an Avengers and Luke is the HNIC.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 25, 2007, 09:49:40 pm
I said if the story supported it, I would be fine with it.  But with so many voices on the board it seems to be a big demand to see every prominent black superhero lumped into a group.  That comes off as forced to me.  If that's not where you're coming from then what I said doesn't apply to you.

Fans tend to FANtasize about people they want on a team because they like the characters.  That is what fans do.  Oh yeah and this is Hudlin's Black Panther board and he has expressed that idea more than once in his books so speculation on this is more than warranted.  The point I'm making is that your first statement was one to negatively bash a team of Black heroes in a post that is explicitly about how the status quo views a team of White  heroes as good and natural but a team of black heroes as negative.  You basically proved my point.


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I dunno, are you naming the members of this team because they're black?  Does Longshot have a chance?

In previous posts I have delineated the breadth of Black superheroes to exemplify the plethora of them that need development and could possibly be used as a resource for a team.  Again, check yourself.  This automatic inclination to view a Black team as forced is problematic.  You have a board of comic fans who would like to see team of heroes that happen to be Black.  Alot of us aren't writers.  So putting random Black heroes together is simply speculation and brainstorming.  This is no different than Avengers, X-men or mutant team writers brainstorming on heroes that they would like to use for their version of a team.  Have you read New Avengers?  The manner of how that team came to be could have been filled with just about any character in the Marvel world. 

A group of heroes responded to a prison break and Captain America thought "Hey we worked well to gether, it must be fate. I know let's call ourselves Avengers!!!"  Some people didn't buy it but the the book's popularity shows people accepted it.  So if random Black heroes responded to the such a threat and Luke Cage said "Yo we worked well together, why we should start a new Heroes for Hire!!" I wonder what your response would be then.

As far as Longshot having a chance.. WTF is that?  No seriously.  Why would you ask that?  If we have stated that we want to see a team of Black heroes, why must someone always say "Can a white person get on the team?"   Can a Black person join New Excalibur? What about the Mighty Avengers?  One would be inclined to say "yes of course."  Nevertheless, there are no Blacks on the team.  So yeah my little imagined team called the Foundation, can include whites.  If Chase and his dinopet from the Runaways wanted to join, yeah sure he could..  Longshot as well. :-\ 
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I don't really care about the white teams.  I want to see the heroes we got developed more as individuals.  The Panther doesn't need an Avengers and Luke is the HNIC.

Individuals are often best developed in a team environment.  Being a solo act is not easy.  History has shown that being a Black solo act is even harder.  In a team environment you get a variety of attitudes and personalities that can play off one another.  Luke Cage was developed through this manner.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 25, 2007, 11:35:45 pm
the new champions= all white team (but I guess the Hulk gives them some color)


^^noone has a problem with this either..


*sigh*
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: The Evasive 1 on February 26, 2007, 01:52:23 pm
I said if the story supported it, I would be fine with it.  But with so many voices on the board it seems to be a big demand to see every prominent black superhero lumped into a group.  That comes off as forced to me.  If that's not where you're coming from then what I said doesn't apply to you.

Fans tend to FANtasize about people they want on a team because they like the characters.  That is what fans do.  Oh yeah and this is Hudlin's Black Panther board and he has expressed that idea more than once in his books so speculation on this is more than warranted.  The point I'm making is that your first statement was one to negatively bash a team of Black heroes in a post that is explicitly about how the status quo views a team of White  heroes as good and natural but a team of black heroes as negative.  You basically proved my point.


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I dunno, are you naming the members of this team because they're black?  Does Longshot have a chance?

In previous posts I have delineated the breadth of Black superheroes to exemplify the plethora of them that need development and could possibly be used as a resource for a team.  Again, check yourself.  This automatic inclination to view a Black team as forced is problematic.  You have a board of comic fans who would like to see team of heroes that happen to be Black.  Alot of us aren't writers.  So putting random Black heroes together is simply speculation and brainstorming.  This is no different than Avengers, X-men or mutant team writers brainstorming on heroes that they would like to use for their version of a team.  Have you read New Avengers?  The manner of how that team came to be could have been filled with just about any character in the Marvel world. 

A group of heroes responded to a prison break and Captain America thought "Hey we worked well to gether, it must be fate. I know let's call ourselves Avengers!!!"  Some people didn't buy it but the the book's popularity shows people accepted it.  So if random Black heroes responded to the such a threat and Luke Cage said "Yo we worked well together, why we should start a new Heroes for Hire!!" I wonder what your response would be then.

As far as Longshot having a chance.. WTF is that?  No seriously.  Why would you ask that?  If we have stated that we want to see a team of Black heroes, why must someone always say "Can a white person get on the team?"   Can a Black person join New Excalibur? What about the Mighty Avengers?  One would be inclined to say "yes of course."  Nevertheless, there are no Blacks on the team.  So yeah my little imagined team called the Foundation, can include whites.  If Chase and his dinopet from the Runaways wanted to join, yeah sure he could..  Longshot as well. :-\ 
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I don't really care about the white teams.  I want to see the heroes we got developed more as individuals.  The Panther doesn't need an Avengers and Luke is the HNIC.

Individuals are often best developed in a team environment.  Being a solo act is not easy.  History has shown that being a Black solo act is even harder.  In a team environment you get a variety of attitudes and personalities that can play off one another.  Luke Cage was developed through this manner.

Yaw, good post. I agree with pretty much all your statements here. I have followed this discussion from the beginning and I cannot for the life me understand why the detractors of this idea cannot see how ironic and somewhat hypocritical their statements are. If they do see it then they are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on February 26, 2007, 02:11:42 pm
I don't see how hard it is to get the concept of this thread.  IAWE, it's not even that hard to comprehend.  The arguments at this point are just banal.  I mean, how many times can you really go back and forth trying to drill things through the heads of people who, at this point...JUST. DON'T. GET IT.  How hard is it to understand that people want to see characters that look like them?  Not just in comics, either.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Vic Vega on February 26, 2007, 02:46:25 pm

I just find the idea of superheroes getting together for the expressed purpose of being black to be cheesy.  I'd like to see the few black heroes we have to be built up more on their own instead of being lumped together.

why oh why oh why, do black heroes have to be together for the sole purpose of being black?  What is this argument even made?  Who in their right mind would make a comic book full of Black heroes that are together for the sole purpose of being black?  Let me reword that. WHat COMPANY in their right mind would expect to profit on a comic book full of heroes who have created team based on the fact of them being black?

There are a myriad of engaging and penetrating stories that could be put together with a team of heroes who band common cause which has nothing to do with the race of their skin despite the fact that they are all Black.  I really wish I people would stop saying that nonsense.  WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT BLACK HEROES JOINED BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK IS LAME! This isn't about why they are together.  The fact remains WE WANT A BLACK TEAM, JUST LIKE THE MYRIAD OF WHITE TEAMS!!!

Fantastic Four (pre-544)
Mighty Avengers
Illuminatti
Excalibur

Sorry if I want an engaging team of characters that happen to look like me.



Why isn't Excalibur "forced"? Half the team isn't even British or from the U.K. (Sage, Nocturne,Juggernaut and Dazzler).

Why isn't Mighty Avengers forced? Three characters on the team do the EXACT SAME THING (Wonder Man, Sentry and Ares): Hit things really hard.

There's going to be a team protecting Canada (Omega Flight) with only two Canadians (Sasquach and Talisman) on the team. Why isn't that "lame"?

Nobody questions any of the above.

Let's see that type of "logic" used in every instance not just with a minority super team.   
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 26, 2007, 03:07:30 pm
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Fans tend to FANtasize about people they want on a team because they like the characters.  That is what fans do.  Oh yeah and this is Hudlin's Black Panther board and he has expressed that idea more than once in his books so speculation on this is more than warranted.


I'm just saying the idea comes off as kind of a forced to me.  I understand the fantasy and desire I'm just saying it doesn't seem all that practical to me.

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The point I'm making is that your first statement was one to negatively bash a team of Black heroes in a post that is explicitly about how the status quo views a team of White  heroes as good and natural but a team of black heroes as negative.  You basically proved my point.

I said that an idea of Black Superheroes lumping together into a group with the driving force being their ethnicity sounds cheesy and forced to me.  I did not go out my way to call MA good.  But if we're going on that, the fact is most of the Avengers have a longstanding developed history together so it's more natural to see them come together and it has nothing to do with them being all white.


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In previous posts I have delineated the breadth of Black superheroes to exemplify the plethora of them that need development and could possibly be used as a resource for a team.  Again, check yourself.  This automatic inclination to view a Black team as forced is problematic.  You have a board of comic fans who would like to see team of heroes that happen to be Black.


Yes, and I personally would like to see more heroes on their own that are black, and plus I said if the story is good I have no problem with the team but I'd rather see the guys we have be more developed as individuals

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A group of heroes responded to a prison break and Captain America thought "Hey we worked well to gether, it must be fate. I know let's call ourselves Avengers!!!"  Some people didn't buy it but the the book's popularity shows people accepted it.  So if random Black heroes responded to the such a threat and Luke Cage said "Yo we worked well together, why we should start a new Heroes for Hire!!" I wonder what your response would be then.

If the story is told well I wouldn't have a problem with it.
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As far as Longshot having a chance.. WTF is that?  No seriously.  Why would you ask that?


lol, well he was the first name to pop in my head

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Can a Black person join New Excalibur? What about the Mighty Avengers?  One would be inclined to say "yes of course."  Nevertheless, there are no Blacks on the team. 


So would you be open to seeing Longshot on The Malcolm X-Men?

<reads rest of paragraph>

ok, by the way I do remember your original post on the Foundation, and that was good stuff.




Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 26, 2007, 03:09:47 pm
stupid button

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Individuals are often best developed in a team environment.  Being a solo act is not easy.  History has shown that being a Black solo act is even harder.  In a team environment you get a variety of attitudes and personalities that can play off one another.  Luke Cage was developed through this manner.

The team thing didn't do Panther awhole lot of good, him being on his own helped him out alot.  And yes, the Avengers helped out Cage alot, but he was standing next to the A-List, with a team full of most the B-Listers than black heroes have been portrayed I don't see it helping out too many characters.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 27, 2007, 07:18:47 am
I'm just saying the idea comes off as kind of a forced to me.  I understand the fantasy and desire I'm just saying it doesn't seem all that practical to me.
 

Here is my point.  You are saying this idea isn't practical.  I'm saying that your assumption of non- practicality negates your claim of support for a black team "with a good storyline."  You negate the idea of an all Black team before we can even discuss a storyline.  Do you think new writers to X-men/Avengers always have the storyline in mind BEFORE they have their desired lineup?  Chicken or the egg.  Sometimes finding the characters for the team will DRIVE you to the storyline.  Assuming that an all black team is forced at the opening gate means that you have inherent/endemic prejudices to the notion.
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I said that an idea of Black Superheroes lumping together into a group with the driving force being their ethnicity sounds cheesy and forced to me.  I did not go out my way to call MA good.  But if we're going on that, the fact is most of the Avengers have a longstanding developed history together so it's more natural to see them come together and it has nothing to do with them being all white.

MA = Wonderman, Iron Man, Wasp, Ares, Sentry, Ms. Marvel .  On-panel Ares  has no relationship with the following, and Sentry only really has a relationship with Iron Man and Ms Marvel to a degree.  Either way I think its safe to assume that Iron MAn is the glue to this team.  He picked out his team himself.

Potential Black team choices= Triatholon, Silhouette, Photon, Debrii, Wildstreak, Falcon.  3 of these members alone were Avengers and had fought together in the past.  All of them were Anti-Reg. 5 of them were Captain America's Secret Avengers.  If one had to make a team from this, Falcon  would be the glue as he was Captain's right hand man and probably had alot of clout among the Secret Avengers.

The point:  I can make just as many valid of reasons as to why a group of 2 or more Black heroes could be on a team together that makes the same or more sense than the Mighty Avengers or any incarnation of an X-Men team.

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ok, by the way I do remember your original post on the Foundation, and that was good stuff.

Thanks.



Again this falls back on you the reader and your own prejudices.  As seen through your posts people are simply against the idea of a Black team.  They can justify as much as they want but there is no reason why a Black team would be forced, contrived, cheesy or any other word for the description of something one is inherently against.





Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on February 27, 2007, 10:18:58 am
Again this falls back on you the reader and your own prejudices.  As seen through your posts people are simply against the idea of a Black team.  They can justify as much as they want but there is no reason why a Black team would be forced, contrived, cheesy or any other word for the description of something one is inherently against.


That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices. These are the same people boycotting Daredevil because Michael Clarke Duncan was the Kingpin, all the while hiding behind the "sanctity" of the source material.  You're telling me Tony Stark couldn't find ONE worthy minority face for the Mighty Avengers?  I call bullshyt!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 27, 2007, 10:31:13 am
Again this falls back on you the reader and your own prejudices.  As seen through your posts people are simply against the idea of a Black team.  They can justify as much as they want but there is no reason why a Black team would be forced, contrived, cheesy or any other word for the description of something one is inherently against.


That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices. These are the same people boycotting Daredevil because Michael Clarke Duncan was the Kingpin, all the while hiding behind the "sanctity" of the source material.  You're telling me Tony Stark couldn't find ONE worthy minority face for the Mighty Avengers?  I call bullshyt!

Bishop should have been a part of Mighty Avengers.  He sold out his X-family to follow Iron Man and now he has nowhere to go.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: The Evasive 1 on February 27, 2007, 10:56:01 am
Again this falls back on you the reader and your own prejudices.  As seen through your posts people are simply against the idea of a Black team.  They can justify as much as they want but there is no reason why a Black team would be forced, contrived, cheesy or any other word for the description of something one is inherently against.


That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices. These are the same people boycotting Daredevil because Michael Clarke Duncan was the Kingpin, all the while hiding behind the "sanctity" of the source material.  You're telling me Tony Stark couldn't find ONE worthy minority face for the Mighty Avengers?  I call bullshyt!

Bishop should have been a part of Mighty Avengers.  He sold out his X-family to follow Iron Man and now he has nowhere to go.

Isn't that how it goes sometimes for folks who do that? Hey, why don't we ask Colin Powell what he thinks?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 27, 2007, 11:14:27 am
I can't see Blade joining the Mighty Avengers for the simple fact that Blade is more of a loner than a team player type. Yeah, he's been a part of groups in the past, but for the most part, he sticks to himself. He only went pro-reg to get the NYPD off his case regarding the "murder" (although that was a vampire he killed) but he still had his fingerprints on dozens of unsolved cases. I just think a Vampire Hunter would look mad awkward in the Mighty Avengers.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 27, 2007, 12:19:31 pm
I can't see Blade joining the Mighty Avengers for the simple fact that Blade is more of a loner than a team player type. Yeah, he's been a part of groups in the past, but for the most part, he sticks to himself. He only went pro-reg to get the NYPD off his case regarding the "murder" (although that was a vampire he killed) but he still had his fingerprints on dozens of unsolved cases. I just think a Vampire Hunter would look mad awkward in the Mighty Avengers.

a good writer can make anything work.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 27, 2007, 07:03:01 pm
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Here is my point.  You are saying this idea isn't practical.  I'm saying that your assumption of non- practicality negates your claim of support for a black team "with a good storyline."

Well you can think that but if the story is good I'm always more than willing to drop my initial reservations.  I did that with Panther.

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Do you think new writers to X-men/Avengers always have the storyline in mind BEFORE they have their desired lineup?  Chicken or the egg.  Sometimes finding the characters for the team will DRIVE you to the storyline.  Assuming that an all black team is forced at the opening gate means that you have inherent/endemic prejudices to the notion.

I find the idea cheesy, yes, but I'm open to a good story, the book just has to prove itself to me, and that's for any comic book.

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Again this falls back on you the reader and your own prejudices.  As seen through your posts people are simply against the idea of a Black team.  They can justify as much as they want but there is no reason why a Black team would be forced, contrived, cheesy or any other word for the description of something one is inherently against.

Once again, the idea sounds cheesy to me, that's what I think when the idea hits me, I'm not on the picket line rallying against it.  But I have my doubts on whether or not it would work out.  And personally I'd rather see Black heroes developed more as individuals and I don't think lumping them together would help them.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: D- Ruck on February 27, 2007, 07:04:34 pm
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That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices.


I hope you don't think I'm prejudice against Black people
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on February 27, 2007, 07:22:47 pm
Once again, the idea sounds cheesy to me, that's what I think when the idea hits me, I'm not on the picket line rallying against it.  But I have my doubts on whether or not it would work out.  And personally I'd rather see Black heroes developed more as individuals and I don't think lumping them together would help them.
You find the idea of a black team "cheesy" before you even hear what the story is?  Isn't that the definition of prejudging?  I think that is the point being made in the thread. 

As for the development of black heroes, isn't the important thing the quality of the portrayals regardless of whether they occur in team or individual books?

Anyway, it's great that you guys have been all around this debate with civility and respect. 
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 27, 2007, 07:29:45 pm
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That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices.


I hope you don't think I'm prejudice against Black people

no I don't. I think you just have an engrained prejudice against the idea of a team of Black superheroes.  ;D  There is a distinct difference here, one that I think is natural being an American despite one's race.  Growing up with a plethora of white heroes and few black characters (of whom even fewer are heroes) tends to reinforce the unspoken idea that blacks are often not very heroic or powerful heroes.  Even when one gets past that notion, the idea of an all black team still seems like a far off dream (and for some folks a nightmare).  

Either way it goes, one shouldn't have to "prove" to you that a team of Black heroes is not cheesy or forced.  THe only proof that is needed is whether or not the story is engaging enough for you to continue supporting it.  Unless your cheese-o-meter is already going off the meter out when looking at the lineup of a new team that you know nothing about (even if there were no Blacks) you are indeed prejudice against a black team.  As you have implied, having the cheese-o-meter available for testing is not enough.  You assume that a Black team is cheesy before knowing anything about it.  So when you see sneak peeks of new CW:Initiative teams, I hope you are having the same thoughts about how lame the idea of  the WWH team with Hercules, Hulk, Scorpion and Angel is.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 27, 2007, 07:31:22 pm

Anyway, it's great that you guys have been all around this debate with civility and respect. 

I GET MY POINT ACROSS BETTER WITHOUT YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on February 28, 2007, 08:51:23 am
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That pretty much sums up any and all arguments against a a black team.  That's what I've been saying forever, people can't see a black team because they can't see past their own prejudices.


I hope you don't think I'm prejudice against Black people

No, that's now what I was saying.  I saying people can't see past the stuff that's been out there forever.  That since it's the "norm" for teams or characters to always be white, some people rebel against it when it's different from their comfortable status quo...both black and white people.  It's like Jenn's comment about Florida Evans on Good Times with the Black Jesus.  People are so used to seeing it, if you change it, it's like you're breaking the law.  The example I gave about the Kingpin in the DD movie illustrates it completely.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on February 28, 2007, 12:19:39 pm
I can't see Blade joining the Mighty Avengers for the simple fact that Blade is more of a loner than a team player type. Yeah, he's been a part of groups in the past, but for the most part, he sticks to himself. He only went pro-reg to get the NYPD off his case regarding the "murder" (although that was a vampire he killed) but he still had his fingerprints on dozens of unsolved cases. I just think a Vampire Hunter would look mad awkward in the Mighty Avengers.

a good writer can make anything work.


I just can't picture Blade fighting Ultron, Kang or Masters of Evil. I could see him maybe in an adventure where he crosses paths with the Avengers and somehow the two form an uneasy alliance to be a mutual threat, but not as a member like say, Wonder Man. Now if he was a reserve or honorary, I could swallow that.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on February 28, 2007, 05:29:36 pm
I can't see Blade joining the Mighty Avengers for the simple fact that Blade is more of a loner than a team player type. Yeah, he's been a part of groups in the past, but for the most part, he sticks to himself. He only went pro-reg to get the NYPD off his case regarding the "murder" (although that was a vampire he killed) but he still had his fingerprints on dozens of unsolved cases. I just think a Vampire Hunter would look mad awkward in the Mighty Avengers.

a good writer can make anything work.


I just can't picture Blade fighting Ultron, Kang or Masters of Evil. I could see him maybe in an adventure where he crosses paths with the Avengers and somehow the two form an uneasy alliance to be a mutual threat, but not as a member like say, Wonder Man. Now if he was a reserve or honorary, I could swallow that.

granted when I mentioned Blade before it was just as an example of a Black hero that was pro-reg, I really didn't see him on the team.  However, if he is moved away from being a one trick pony (which he needs because diveristy sells) then if a good writer wanted him on the MA squad he could be there.  If Hawkeye, Mockingbird, Moonknight and Tigra have been regular Avengers members then so can Blade.  He is a superpowered martial artist with a healing factor.  He can definitely be on an Avengers team.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: sinjection on March 05, 2007, 04:12:04 am
That was a good read Sinjection, I'm glad you're back. So, you're saying that white entertainment (like movies, comicbooks etc.) producers often appeal to white audiences, their largest and most important demographic. Are you saying also that even when it comes to genres such as rap, that are borne from "black kulture", white folks tend to have a fangasm over white artists and crown them "king of"? Well, I agree on some points but I'd hate to derail it further with a disagreement.

What you didn't answer is whether it is or not a bad thing, in this case comic books, for white entertainers to appeal to their target audience. Unless you did make that point and it went over my head which I'm guessing is the case.

Thank you, Toya. I know that many of my comments tend to be very wordy as I struggle to find the right words to convey what it is I am thinking and trying to share with you all  :)

I think you have understood the gist of what I was trying to get at. Toya, there isn't anything I could post that would be so profound that it would go "over your head". You're sharper than I ever will be.

I believe that many in the white majority create entertainment which appeals primarily to them - "of white people, for white people, by white people". I don't find that to be a "bad thing". Often, when a manner of entertainment whites have created for themselves "crosses over" and appeals to black audiences and audiences of other people of color, that form of entertainment will be modified somewhat to reflect the identity of those black fans and fans "of color". I don't find this to be a "bad thing".

Black American musicians have created musical genres that not only appeal to other black Americans. Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, R&B, Funk, Hip Hop...has global appeal. The Jamaican music genres Ska and Reggae also enjoys a wide popularity across racial groups and ethncities. In the case of many white people, the music would be even more enjoyable to them if it was performed by whites rather than blacks, even if the proficiency of those white performers only approaches but does not match the excellence of those black performers. Any white performer who seems to equal those abilities is almost instantly exalted and proclaimed to be the best performer in that genre, the most exciting performer in that genre, the "King" of that genre. I don't think this is necessarily a "good thing", Toya  :)

Decades ago, white Americans said that professional sporting endeavors were pleasant diversions intended to be enjoyed solely by white people. Black athletes excelled as jockeys in horse racing. White racism drove the black athlete out of horse racing for good. There is an excellent book I'd like to refer to you, Toya. It is entitled: "Get That Nigger Off The Field". The author is Art Rust. If I remember correctly, that highly offensive statement was uttered by white baseball "great", Cap Anson. I believe that in reading that book, you will begin to gain a clearer understanding of just what it is I am trying to get across to you.

White people aren't much different from other people. We all find comfort in those things that reflect and celebrate ourselves, and make us comfortable with who we are. Because this U.S.A. is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society, this doesn't always work out as it should for all concerned.

In comics, the larger comicbook-buying demographic is most comfortable when those characters who reflect their racial appearance and culture are depicted as being "top dog" as it were. Male quacking ducks are happiest when the white male supherhero is seen as the most desired by white female characters, Asian female characters, Latin female characters, Black female characters, Asgardian female characters, Skrull female characters...etc, etc, etc... Male quacking ducks don't like it so much when T'Challa, the Black Panther is depicted as being brilliant, elegant, indomitable in battle - be that battle one of wills or actual physical contact - and those male quacking ducks are especially agitated when T'Challa is presented as being physically and sensually desirable to females. The same is true of the female quacking ducks. Until Hudlin's run on the Panther began, many of those female quacking ducks were claiming Storm as "one of their own". How then could she forsake Forge, Logan, Nightcrawler, Jetstream, .... Dracula...for the likes of an African man?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Toya on March 06, 2007, 03:56:01 am
That was a good read Sinjection, I'm glad you're back. So, you're saying that white entertainment (like movies, comicbooks etc.) producers often appeal to white audiences, their largest and most important demographic. Are you saying also that even when it comes to genres such as rap, that are borne from "black kulture", white folks tend to have a fangasm over white artists and crown them "king of"? Well, I agree on some points but I'd hate to derail it further with a disagreement.

What you didn't answer is whether it is or not a bad thing, in this case comic books, for white entertainers to appeal to their target audience. Unless you did make that point and it went over my head which I'm guessing is the case.

Thank you, Toya. I know that many of my comments tend to be very wordy as I struggle to find the right words to convey what it is I am thinking and trying to share with you all  :)

I think you have understood the gist of what I was trying to get at. Toya, there isn't anything I could post that would be so profound that it would go "over your head". You're sharper than I ever will be.

I believe that many in the white majority create entertainment which appeals primarily to them - "of white people, for white people, by white people". I don't find that to be a "bad thing". Often, when a manner of entertainment whites have created for themselves "crosses over" and appeals to black audiences and audiences of other people of color, that form of entertainment will be modified somewhat to reflect the identity of those black fans and fans "of color". I don't find this to be a "bad thing".

Black American musicians have created musical genres that not only appeal to other black Americans. Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, R&B, Funk, Hip Hop...has global appeal. The Jamaican music genres Ska and Reggae also enjoys a wide popularity across racial groups and ethncities. In the case of many white people, the music would be even more enjoyable to them if it was performed by whites rather than blacks, even if the proficiency of those white performers only approaches but does not match the excellence of those black performers. Any white performer who seems to equal those abilities is almost instantly exalted and proclaimed to be the best performer in that genre, the most exciting performer in that genre, the "King" of that genre. I don't think this is necessarily a "good thing", Toya  :)

Decades ago, white Americans said that professional sporting endeavors were pleasant diversions intended to be enjoyed solely by white people. Black athletes excelled as jockeys in horse racing. White racism drove the black athlete out of horse racing for good. There is an excellent book I'd like to refer to you, Toya. It is entitled: "Get That Nigger Off The Field". The author is Art Rust. If I remember correctly, that highly offensive statement was uttered by white baseball "great", Cap Anson. I believe that in reading that book, you will begin to gain a clearer understanding of just what it is I am trying to get across to you.

White people aren't much different from other people. We all find comfort in those things that reflect and celebrate ourselves, and make us comfortable with who we are. Because this U.S.A. is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society, this doesn't always work out as it should for all concerned.

In comics, the larger comicbook-buying demographic is most comfortable when those characters who reflect their racial appearance and culture are depicted as being "top dog" as it were. Male quacking ducks are happiest when the white male supherhero is seen as the most desired by white female characters, Asian female characters, Latin female characters, Black female characters, Asgardian female characters, Skrull female characters...etc, etc, etc... Male quacking ducks don't like it so much when T'Challa, the Black Panther is depicted as being brilliant, elegant, indomitable in battle - be that battle one of wills or actual physical contact - and those male quacking ducks are especially agitated when T'Challa is presented as being physically and sensually desirable to females. The same is true of the female quacking ducks. Until Hudlin's run on the Panther began, many of those female quacking ducks were claiming Storm as "one of their own". How then could she forsake Forge, Logan, Nightcrawler, Jetstream, .... Dracula...for the likes of an African man?

Hi Sinjection. Thanks for taking the time to explicate your point. :)

I've thought over the situation and I'll admit that I misunderstood some people's (yours included) position on the topic. My apologies. Now that I comprehend what some are aiming at I can't say I disagree. In fact, I've done away with the whole "don't do it just because they're black" shtick, because it is unrealistic and too idealistic.
 
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Frostbite883 on March 06, 2007, 05:19:45 am
Hopefully, in a future issue/arc of Mighty Avengers, the team would finally have a
black, asian, hispanic or amerid superhero in their ranks....eventually.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, won't we?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 06, 2007, 05:50:20 am
sure...issue 187, triathalon joins the team for 2 issues.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on March 06, 2007, 09:17:52 am
I'm thinking that there will possibly be a new hero of color to join the Mighty Avengers. For those of you who are unfamilar with Avengers' history, Monica Rambeau made her debut in the pages of volume one of The Avengers. Triathlon debuted in the early issues of volume two. Also, keep in mind that the membership in the Avengers tends to be unstable.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 06, 2007, 10:53:12 am
I'm thinking that there will possibly be a new hero of color to join the Mighty Avengers. For those of you who are unfamilar with Avengers' history, Monica Rambeau made her debut in the pages of volume one of The Avengers. Triathlon debuted in the early issues of volume two. Also, keep in mind that the membership in the Avengers tends to be unstable.

Forget a new character.  Personally, I am not a fan of Triathalon.

Monica is the key though. 

A former Avengers leader who was a big part of the Avengers for about 70 issues and has big time powers.  I don;t know why she's been ignored for so long.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on March 06, 2007, 12:20:39 pm
Well, I just emailed Joe Quesada asking about the lack of color on the Mighty Avengers roster.  I'm patiently waiting for a reply.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 06, 2007, 12:48:51 pm
hahahahaha... he'll probably make a joke about how COLORED their costumes are.
:D

but glad u asked teh question.
keep us posted.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on March 06, 2007, 01:48:15 pm
hahahahaha... he'll probably make a joke about how COLORED their costumes are.
:D

but glad u asked teh question.
keep us posted.

Yeah, that's the same thing I was thinking when I wrote the email. :D  Hopefully, he'll actually answer the question, but I won't hold my breath for a straight answer.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on March 07, 2007, 01:52:53 am
I'm thinking that there will possibly be a new hero of color to join the Mighty Avengers. For those of you who are unfamilar with Avengers' history, Monica Rambeau made her debut in the pages of volume one of The Avengers. Triathlon debuted in the early issues of volume two. Also, keep in mind that the membership in the Avengers tends to be unstable.

Forget a new character.  Personally, I am not a fan of Triathalon.

Monica is the key though. 

A former Avengers leader who was a big part of the Avengers for about 70 issues and has big time powers.  I don;t know why she's been ignored for so long.

other than a joke book like Nextwave, I think its because she is too powerful for most books.  She can turn into any wavelength of the electromagnetic spectrum.  That means she can fly at the speed of light i.e. be at any battle before the rest of the team.  Other than getting caught in human form offguard, there is no reason why she should ever get hit/hurt.

However since the Mighty Avengers consists of a pretty powerful ensemble, I think she would be an excellent addition to the team.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hulkster on March 07, 2007, 08:13:37 am
Monica would fit well and it would give the team an equal number of males and females.  The only problem is that the team is composed of pro-registration characters which Monica isn't.  The only prominant pro-registration black character (though his blackness is sometimes disputed) is Bishop and I think that he would make a good addition to the team, especially since he is mildly estranged from the X-Men.  The problem with him is that having Black Widow and Ms. Marvel on the team makes his tendency to carry a gun and his energy absorption powers sort of redundant.  Rhodey would also be redundant.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 07, 2007, 08:18:11 am
The only prominant pro-registration black character (though his blackness is sometimes disputed) is Bishop and I think that he would make a good addition to the team, especially since he is mildly estranged from the X-Men.

I think Quesada said in Joe Fridays last week that Bishop will play a large part in the x-men books in a few months.

Also, just wondering how someones blackness is disputed? Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hulkster on March 07, 2007, 09:26:01 am
The only prominant pro-registration black character (though his blackness is sometimes disputed) is Bishop and I think that he would make a good addition to the team, especially since he is mildly estranged from the X-Men.

I think Quesada said in Joe Fridays last week that Bishop will play a large part in the x-men books in a few months.

Also, just wondering how someones blackness is disputed? Thanks  :)

Well, Bishop's great grandfather, Gateway, is Aboriginal and Bishop's bio indicates that his parents came to the U.S. after escaping from Australia (of course in a future reality).  This hints at Bishop being Aboriginal and there are many who perceive them as not being black; black being defined as descended from black Africans.  This only hints since we don't know anything specific about his parents.  I personally see Aboriginals as black.  While the shared ancestry with Africans is distant, I think that it is close enough and many of them have accepted the label of "black".       
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 07, 2007, 09:32:45 am
Hulkster said it better than i would have.
i wholeheartedly agree buddy.

:D

well, i agree with your definition of Bishop's blackness.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on March 07, 2007, 09:44:11 am
Yeah, and Bishop did have that fly Aboriginal Perm when he first appeared....but I digress.  Bishop is the only black character that I can think of that was on the Pro side...but what about characters like Cloak...a "futurist" like Stark claims to be can't see that a guy who can teleport through dimemsions would be a huge asset to a team dealing with world and galactic threats?  Who could Cloak replace you ask, how about Wonder Man?? Is he just there for comic relief?  Ares??  The immortal version of the Punisher?  I feel like Giancarlo Esposito in Do the Right Thing...Hey, Joe Q...Why ain't there no brothas on the wall!?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 07, 2007, 11:57:54 am
Yeah, and Bishop did have that fly Aboriginal Perm when he first appeared....but I digress.  Bishop is the only black character that I can think of that was on the Pro side...but what about characters like Cloak...a "futurist" like Stark claims to be can't see that a guy who can teleport through dimemsions would be a huge asset to a team dealing with world and galactic threats?  Who could Cloak replace you ask, how about Wonder Man?? Is he just there for comic relief?  Ares??  The immortal version of the Punisher?  I feel like Giancarlo Esposito in Do the Right Thing...Hey, Joe Q...Why ain't there no brothas on the wall!?

While I enjoyed the Ares mini I have no strong feelings for the character one way or the other.  Wonder Man, however, is one of my favorite Avengers characters, and Cloak has always seemed boring to me, though admittedly I have never read a Cloak and Dagger mini or ongoing.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: bluezulu on March 07, 2007, 03:29:23 pm
Is monica vulnarable to psychic or mystical powers when in light form?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Open palm on March 07, 2007, 07:43:37 pm
Is monica vulnarable to psychic or mystical powers when in light form?

Don't see why she can't be. But there must be some forms of energy that make her immune to telepathy. But that would also mean telepathic teammates can't communicate with her at the same time.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Pantherfan on March 08, 2007, 06:20:51 am
I'm thinking that there will possibly be a new hero of color to join the Mighty Avengers. For those of you who are unfamilar with Avengers' history, Monica Rambeau made her debut in the pages of volume one of The Avengers. Triathlon debuted in the early issues of volume two. Also, keep in mind that the membership in the Avengers tends to be unstable.

Forget a new character.  Personally, I am not a fan of Triathalon.

Monica is the key though. 

A former Avengers leader who was a big part of the Avengers for about 70 issues and has big time powers.  I don;t know why she's been ignored for so long.

I guess it boils down to priority. I wouldn't mind seeing a Monica Rambeau mini-series or maybe join the New Avengers.

Why are you so against new characters?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on March 08, 2007, 07:49:23 am
Yeah, and Bishop did have that fly Aboriginal Perm when he first appeared....but I digress.  Bishop is the only black character that I can think of that was on the Pro side...but what about characters like Cloak...a "futurist" like Stark claims to be can't see that a guy who can teleport through dimemsions would be a huge asset to a team dealing with world and galactic threats?  Who could Cloak replace you ask, how about Wonder Man?? Is he just there for comic relief?  Ares??  The immortal version of the Punisher?  I feel like Giancarlo Esposito in Do the Right Thing...Hey, Joe Q...Why ain't there no brothas on the wall!?

While I enjoyed the Ares mini I have no strong feelings for the character one way or the other.  Wonder Man, however, is one of my favorite Avengers characters, and Cloak has always seemed boring to me, though admittedly I have never read a Cloak and Dagger mini or ongoing.

Cloak IS lame. I will say that up until now he has been presented as a rather one-trick pony but that is mostly because of having no solo ongoing and being mostly used as the "car" in most of his appearances.  Nevertheless he is lame because he is dependent on Dagger.  He can't do anything without her or he will go insane and succumb fully to the dark dimension.  Personally I think Dagger is a lame hero , Ms. "I shoot daggers of light!"
Lame-O, IMO.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 08, 2007, 08:17:56 am
Yeah, and Bishop did have that fly Aboriginal Perm when he first appeared....but I digress.  Bishop is the only black character that I can think of that was on the Pro side...but what about characters like Cloak...a "futurist" like Stark claims to be can't see that a guy who can teleport through dimemsions would be a huge asset to a team dealing with world and galactic threats?  Who could Cloak replace you ask, how about Wonder Man?? Is he just there for comic relief?  Ares??  The immortal version of the Punisher?  I feel like Giancarlo Esposito in Do the Right Thing...Hey, Joe Q...Why ain't there no brothas on the wall!?

While I enjoyed the Ares mini I have no strong feelings for the character one way or the other.  Wonder Man, however, is one of my favorite Avengers characters, and Cloak has always seemed boring to me, though admittedly I have never read a Cloak and Dagger mini or ongoing.

Cloak IS lame. I will say that up until now he has been presented as a rather one-trick pony but that is mostly because of having no solo ongoing and being mostly used as the "car" in most of his appearances.  Nevertheless he is lame because he is dependent on Dagger.  He can't do anything without her or he will go insane and succumb fully to the dark dimension.  Personally I think Dagger is a lame hero , Ms. "I shoot daggers of light!"
Lame-O, IMO.

Whats their deal?  They always seemed like more than friends but less then lovers.  Are they some corny "soul mate" couple.

Personally I wouldn't mind if Cloak's cloak ate Dagger and finished up Cloak for dessert.  Then again, my favorite avengers are Dr. Druid and USAgent, so what do I know?  :o

PS Yay, my 400th post!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Hypestyle on March 08, 2007, 09:11:51 am
Why doesn't Monica join Luke's New Avengers now?

what happened in Nextwave #12?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 08, 2007, 09:17:37 am
Why doesn't Monica join Luke's New Avengers now?

what happened in Nextwave #12?

I don't know but I was kinda hoping they were just going to ignore the whole series.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 08, 2007, 09:31:40 am
the series is supposed to continue as various mini series now.

the series ended on a good note with them reinvigorated and ready to fight crime.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Vic Vega on March 09, 2007, 07:15:38 am
Yeah, and Bishop did have that fly Aboriginal Perm when he first appeared....but I digress.  Bishop is the only black character that I can think of that was on the Pro side...but what about characters like Cloak...a "futurist" like Stark claims to be can't see that a guy who can teleport through dimemsions would be a huge asset to a team dealing with world and galactic threats?  Who could Cloak replace you ask, how about Wonder Man?? Is he just there for comic relief?  Ares??  The immortal version of the Punisher?  I feel like Giancarlo Esposito in Do the Right Thing...Hey, Joe Q...Why ain't there no brothas on the wall!?

While I enjoyed the Ares mini I have no strong feelings for the character one way or the other.  Wonder Man, however, is one of my favorite Avengers characters, and Cloak has always seemed boring to me, though admittedly I have never read a Cloak and Dagger mini or ongoing.

Cloak IS lame. I will say that up until now he has been presented as a rather one-trick pony but that is mostly because of having no solo ongoing and being mostly used as the "car" in most of his appearances.  Nevertheless he is lame because he is dependent on Dagger.  He can't do anything without her or he will go insane and succumb fully to the dark dimension.  Personally I think Dagger is a lame hero , Ms. "I shoot daggers of light!"
Lame-O, IMO.

Whats their deal?  They always seemed like more than friends but less then lovers.  Are they some corny "soul mate" couple.

Personally I wouldn't mind if Cloak's cloak ate Dagger and finished up Clock for dessert.  Then again, my favorite avengers are Dr. Druid and USAgent, so what do I know?  :o

PS Yay, my 400th post!

Congrats on your 400th post!

I gotta start posting more, too I see.

Couple of things here.

I'm a Doc Driud fan myself. So We're the ones :)

If you read Runaways, it gives you the idea that Cloak and Dagger are lovers as Cloak calls Dagger "Beloved" at one point. The various miniseries featuring them posed them as friends that happened to be stuck with each other. 

Cloak and Dagger are kind of symbiotic in that the longer they are apart, the more thier powers whack out. Cloak becomes "vampiric" and Dagger runs the risk of burning out from power overload.  BTW, Dagger can make a kinda "light-saber with her powers. 

I've always liked Cloak and Dagger. But I like quirky characters, I'm the guy who cares more about Stingray and Prowler than I do Woverine or Thor.

They'd be a good add for a street level superteam as you get both teleportation and offensive firepower.   

It also occurs to me that Nextwave could really be considered outside of continuity freeing up the character for use elsewhere.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 09, 2007, 07:27:38 am
thanx to Reggie Reg, Nextwave is kinda INcontinuity because T'challa and Ororo received a present from The Beyond Corporation.

I know it was kinda tongue-in-cheek because Reggie Reg loves Nextwave, but since it showed up in the book, i kinda figured it's incontinuity.

PLUS...if u notice in the civil war book, both Photon and Machine Man are wearing their Nextwave costumes.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Rutog98 on March 14, 2007, 02:45:04 pm
Is monica vulnarable to psychic or mystical powers when in light form?

Some wavelengths of the EM spectrum can jam/inhibit psychic powers and Monica can transforms into any energy in the spectrum. In essense, unless plot induced stupidity is involved, a telepath stands no chance against Monica.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: PFunk on March 15, 2007, 12:10:43 am
Is monica vulnarable to psychic or mystical powers when in light form?

Mental no since it's been stated that (and I don't know which book it was) that she's all but immune to those in any of her light forms.  Mystical probally since it's not science therefor anythng goes.  Still in light form she's a near demigod (especially if someone with science smarts wrote her)

Inshort if you want to take monica out just have a mystic zap her out of her light form and deal with her then.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Vic Vega on March 15, 2007, 12:04:18 pm
Is monica vulnarable to psychic or mystical powers when in light form?

Mental no since it's been stated that (and I don't know which book it was) that she's all but immune to those in any of her light forms.  Mystical probally since it's not science therefor anythng goes.  Still in light form she's a near demigod (especially if someone with science smarts wrote her)

Inshort if you want to take monica out just have a mystic zap her out of her light form and deal with her then.

Since Psionics are a science fantasy energy not in the E-M spectrum, as far as I can see she should be completely vulnerable to that as well as magic. It isn't a major limitation. Part of the reason we see so little of her and Quasar (before he got offed in Annilation) is because they are powerful enough to clean up on most Avengers' foes single handedly.  A fatal limitation when you consider that in Marvel the VILLAINS are supposed to outpower the heroes. It makes for better stories that way. One of the reasons I hate the Sentry is that he has no place in the 616 M.U.

I notice nobody yet mentioned READING Mighty Avengers #1. Having read the issue I was struck by two things:   

            1) Iron Man and Ms. Marvel chose the team themselves. Furthermore they did it in the same way a comic geek or role player would form a team- IRON MAN: "We need a Ninja." MS MARVEL: "Why?"  IRON MAN: "These days you gotta have a Ninja."  :D

            2) Ares was Ms. Marvel's idea, as he's both a "Thor-type" AND  a "Wolverine-type" they kill two birds with one stone by drafting him. The whole thing is written in a pretty light hearted manner, relatively speaking. Iron Man has to pay Ares 44 dollars an hour because that's what he was making on his constrution job when the Avengers drafted him. :D   
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on March 15, 2007, 01:04:30 pm
Yeah, IAWV.  Since mystical energy inherently defies science and logic, that's the only energy that could possibly affect Monica.  Mystic characters are hard to write and make interesting IMO because the writer has to be careful to make things up as they go and bend the rules of science, physics, etc. as even established in comics fiction.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 15, 2007, 01:05:44 pm
i just read it this morning...

i actually liked it.
i was hoping to not like it becuz i dont want to have to buy soooo many avenger books.
in the past i did get this book...and i didnt get west coast avengers, either...
so why am i gettin' 2 avenger books?
cuz they are good.

d'oh!
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Rutog98 on March 15, 2007, 01:42:44 pm
Marvel has long established that certain forms of EM energies can jam/inhibit telepathy. Monica can definately be defeated by a telepath if she is caught in human form. In her energy forms, though, it could be another story.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on March 15, 2007, 07:39:16 pm
Yeah, IAWV.  Since mystical energy inherently defies science and logic, that's the only energy that could possibly affect Monica.  Mystic characters are hard to write and make interesting IMO because the writer has to be careful to make things up as they go and bend the rules of science, physics, etc. as even established in comics fiction.

Quantum bands could essentially control Monica completely.  IT may not affect her mind but it would totally control her actions.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Rutog98 on March 16, 2007, 12:32:57 pm
Yeah, IAWV.  Since mystical energy inherently defies science and logic, that's the only energy that could possibly affect Monica.  Mystic characters are hard to write and make interesting IMO because the writer has to be careful to make things up as they go and bend the rules of science, physics, etc. as even established in comics fiction.

Quantum bands could essentially control Monica completely.  IT may not affect her mind but it would totally control her actions.

Oh, I totally agree here. Monica could also be vulnerable to characters who can control energy like Vulcan.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: PFunk on March 18, 2007, 09:51:41 pm
Quantum bands could essentially control Monica completely.  IT may not affect her mind but it would totally control her actions.

Actually that would come down to a contest of wills if someone tried to use Quantum bans to do that. With the stronger will winning.  And Monica's not a pushover in that department either. Besides what to say Monica  couldn't control the energy controling those bands-like she possibley (since again I've only heard not read this) did with Klye's GL ring.

But as someone stated Psionics might be able to affect her in light form since it's not base on a 'scietific' energy form.  But you have to catch her first.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: PFunk on March 18, 2007, 09:54:09 pm
Oh, I totally agree here. Monica could also be vulnerable to characters who can control energy like Vulcan.

Again it would come down to a contest of wills.  But against someone like Vulcan it's no contest, Monica loses.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 19, 2007, 06:53:15 am
so...how will vulcan be DE-powered cuz he's hella powerful?
2. will prof x stay with lilandra and help her rule or will he go back home and get f***ed up by the Hulk?
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Marvelous on March 25, 2007, 12:47:21 am
so...how will vulcan be DE-powered cuz he's hella powerful?
2. will prof x stay with lilandra and help her rule or will he go back home and get f***ed up by the Hulk?


Middle of page... http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=450.45
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Princesa on May 05, 2007, 07:20:31 am
To me (the token hispanic on the board) the idea of a group of black heroes getting together isn't any more strange than a group of black musicians  getting together or frat or soro's. Its all about the story and people shouldn't choke of race. The Panther New Orleans series could have decided to be a team. The framework is there. Thats how you put them together. Now I am a fan of Cloak AND Dagger (all I know about them if House of M and CW) and I wouldn't feel I couldn't use both.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Rockscissorspaper on May 05, 2007, 08:09:19 am
Again it would come down to a contest of wills.  But against someone like Vulcan it's no contest, Monica loses.

Monica's been around a lot longer than Vulcan. I wouldn't automatically give him the win.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: PFunk on May 05, 2007, 12:40:44 pm
Again it would come down to a contest of wills.  But against someone like Vulcan it's no contest, Monica loses.

Monica's been around a lot longer than Vulcan. I wouldn't automatically give him the win.

Really.  I thought the opposite was true.  If so then you may be right on this one :)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on May 05, 2007, 01:19:03 pm
To me (the token hispanic on the board)

I wouldn't presume that.  Even without Guido, we've got Francisco and other latin folks on board.
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Princesa on May 05, 2007, 02:44:54 pm
To me (the token hispanic on the board)

I wouldn't presume that.  Even without Guido, we've got Francisco and other latin folks on board.

If Guido is the one who was banned we do not claim him but its great if others are here as well (side note the latin musica features on BET J are a great idea and worth much further pursuing maybe a revamped Viva America as well...?)
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Yaw on May 05, 2007, 11:46:41 pm
To me (the token hispanic on the board)

I wouldn't presume that.  Even without Guido, we've got Francisco and other latin folks on board.

If Guido is the one who was banned we do not claim him but its great if others are here as well (side note the latin musica features on BET J are a great idea and worth much further pursuing maybe a revamped Viva America as well...?)

<--Panameno

However because of America's racial/ethnic classification my family can also be considered African Americans.  In fact any Black Panamanian born in the Canal Zone of PAnama prior to 2000 is technically an "African American."  I really don't mind.  One year I got  money from both the United Negro College Fund and Hispanic Fund.  ::)

Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: Catch22 on May 06, 2007, 04:37:17 am
To me (the token hispanic on the board)

I wouldn't presume that.  Even without Guido, we've got Francisco and other latin folks on board.

If Guido is the one who was banned we do not claim him but its great if others are here as well (side note the latin musica features on BET J are a great idea and worth much further pursuing maybe a revamped Viva America as well...?)

<--Panameno

However because of America's racial/ethnic classification my family can also be considered African Americans.  In fact any Black Panamanian born in the Canal Zone of PAnama prior to 2000 is technically an "African American."  I really don't mind.  One year I got  money from both the United Negro College Fund and Hispanic Fund.  ::)



You lousy double dipper! ::) :D ;D
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: GrimSkill on May 07, 2007, 01:25:31 pm
WTF, I didn't get anything from any of them  >:(
Title: Re: Mighty "Whitey" Avengers= good
Post by: bluezulu on May 07, 2007, 03:09:27 pm
I laughed ^^^^^ :D