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Show Bizness => Latest Flicks => Topic started by: MindofShadow on April 15, 2017, 06:20:12 am

Title: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on April 15, 2017, 06:20:12 am
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ#)


I just can't really get into Star Wars as much as i've tried but I am sure it has its fans here.


Look at our boy Finn go! Killin' the game in this trailer!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on April 15, 2017, 03:44:00 pm
Mind,

I know you got to be joking about Finn. Dude is still in a coma. In The Force Awakens review thread I wrote about a book-length work of commentary about the issues I had with the Finn character (not John Boyega) and this little tease has done nothing to allay my concerns about his depiction.

I am a massive Star Wars fan, or I was until the Disney takeover. Now it's hard to get into the novels (I've only managed to finish just one), though I have enjoyed many of the Marvel comics. I really didn't like The Force Awakens, and while I thought Rogue One was an improvement-it was an unnecessary film. So I'm not as excited as I wish I could be for The Last Jedi. Sure I will go see it, but I've got the feeling, or perhaps the resignation, that the new Star Wars just isn't 'my' Star Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on April 15, 2017, 03:59:04 pm
Mind,

I know you got to be joking about Finn. Dude is still in a coma. In The Force Awakens review thread I wrote about a book-length work of commentary about the issues I had with the Finn character (not John Boyega) and this little tease has done nothing to allay my concerns about his depiction.



Oh yeah, that was firmly tongue in cheek

Maybe they are going for the oppostie approach this time. Instead of showing him as a potential bad ass jedi only for him to get his ass kicked by a Storm Trooper...they will show him in a coma and he will actually be competent lol.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on April 16, 2017, 04:08:02 am
One can hope so. I mean the new team is missing a non-Jedi warrior. If only they had just let Finn be a competent Stormtrooper who was trying to make amends for the atrocities he committed or felt responsible for. I think it would've presented a more interesting character than the goofy, love struck, sweating, somewhat cowardly character we are given in Force Awakens.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on April 16, 2017, 10:27:18 am
The emphasis was on tease with this one, but I"m good with that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Hypestyle on April 16, 2017, 07:05:54 pm
I'm glad they didn't seem to spoil anything major.  Hopefully that trend will hold up until the film comes out.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on June 19, 2017, 06:48:55 am
So some lega figurines leaked.

Here is the bad ass Finn.

(https://i.redditmedia.com/cpcGJd2PJnLevNJtE3ny3y7RljCX74mbj4IPYHHwpWU.jpg?w=316&s=3b6abb27b2fd481f3a70e20fab1b78ba)


I know when I grew up as a kid, I always wanted the toys of the scared hero


Go Finn Go!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on June 19, 2017, 01:06:50 pm
^
Ha I love it. They can't even respect Finn in plastic.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 10:38:09 am
Quote
When we last saw Finn, he had been left comatose after that battle with Kylo Ren. In Star Wars: The Last Jedi, he's awake and ready to abandon the Resistance and flee to the Outer Rim as he initially wanted to in The Force Awakens. His wounds from those lightsaber strikes still burn and haven't fully healed and he had to watch Han Solo die so Finn is now ready to get the hell out of there.

When the movie begins, he's hoping to find Rey and take her with him but the problem is that Finn is now a very big deal in the Galaxy. "Everyone in the space, throughout the galaxy, would have heard about the young Jedi who discovered her powers and defeated Kylo Ren and the young former Stormtrooper who helped save the day," John Boyega says. "Heís a hero to people like Rose, who fight for the Resistance because their homes have been destroyed by the First Order." So, what's next for the reluctant hero? We'll get to that a little later.


LOL so Finn's still trying ot run away

Jesus
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 10:53:54 am
The official movie poster:

(http://i.imgur.com/aBJuxCC.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 11:03:16 am
so, is this movie gonna just copy ESB or actually going to have a somewhat original plot this time?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 10, 2017, 12:36:22 pm
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-spoilers-10-major-new-story-details-you-need-to-know-a153174 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-spoilers-10-major-new-story-details-you-need-to-know-a153174)

It does seem like there will be some influences from ESB in this film, with Luke being similar to Yoda, though seemingly a more embittered Yoda.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 01:03:08 pm
Well...  yeah. :)

The whole premise behind Star Wars was described in (what was believed at the time to be the last episode)  'Revenge Of The Sith' what the Emperor said after successfully converting Anakin to the Dark Side,

"It'll be Civil War without end!"


These new Star Wars movies are very impressionable, fan-created material.

George was on another level; he was teaching civics (among many other topics) through his fantasy world as a filmmaker. His version of Star Wars is regal, whimsical and historic.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Hypestyle on August 10, 2017, 01:04:18 pm
hopefully Finn gets to become a more capable hero and adventurer.  The reluctant semi-competent goof only goes so far.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 01:22:23 pm
hopefully Finn gets to become a more capable hero and adventurer.  The reluctant semi-competent goof only goes so far.


I don't understand what you mean.  ???

How was Finn reluctant?  Wasn't he the one who defected which aided the resistance in 'The Force Awakens'?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 01:39:58 pm
hopefully Finn gets to become a more capable hero and adventurer.  The reluctant semi-competent goof only goes so far.


I don't understand what you mean.  ???

How was Finn reluctant?  Wasn't he the one who defected which aided the resistance in 'The Force Awakens'?

he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 01:59:49 pm
he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey



What movie were you watching?  ???

The movie that I saw is where Finn hesitated to slaughter unarmed villagers with the unit he was travelling with then decided to go through with the defection by freeing a captive prisoner by which both escaped together.

During his journey or 'run' (as you put it, 'cause that's what you do when you escape) he meets an attractive girl.

I dunno what your sexual orientation is in real-life but I'm attracted to females. I'm from the Ol' School.  :)
Especially physically attractive ones... so I can relate.

Finn was no more awkward than Luke when he first started out that why I don't understand what Hype means.  :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 02:10:11 pm
he defected to try and run away to the outer rim.

He had no desire to be a hero. He only did it for Rey



What movie were you watching?  ???

The movie that I saw is where Finn hesitated to slaughter unarmed villagers with the unit he was travelling with then decided to go through with the defection by freeing a captive prisoner by which both escaped together.

During his journey or 'run' (as you put it, 'cause that's what you do when you escape) he meets an attractive girl.

I dunno what your sexual orientation is in real-life but I'm attracted to females. I'm from the Ol' School.  :)
Especially physically attractive ones... so I can relate.

Finn was no more awkward than Luke when he first started out that why I don't understand what Hype means.  :-\

He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner because the prisoner could FLY HIS ASS OUT OF THERE

He then spent the majority of the movie running and trying to get to the outer rim.

The only reason he DIDNT leave is because of Rey.

He did not join the fight because he was down for the cause. he RELUCTANTLY joined the fight to free Rey and then get back to running.

He fit the very definition of relunctant. And the very defintion of semi competent because he wasn't like his novel version (ie the best stormtrooper) at all.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 02:28:54 pm
He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner...



Heh. (http://i.imgur.com/Ft9MpaU.gif)

You were doing really well up until this part then I stopped reading.   

Let's go with what you're getting at...  Finn wanted the girl...

What's wrong with the possibility of romance in this Star Wars story between Finn and Rey?

Would you prefer to continue with the Han & Leah romance? 

'Cause from what I understand, that relationship didn't turn out so well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 02:32:05 pm
He left because they are slaughtering people. Yes you are right.

He freed a captive prisoner...



Heh. ([url]http://i.imgur.com/Ft9MpaU.gif[/url])

You were doing really well up until this part then I stopped reading.   

Let's go with what you're getting at...  Finn wanted the girl...

What's wrong with the possibility of romance in this Star Wars story between Finn and Rey?

Would you prefer to continue with the Han & Leah romance? 

'Cause from what I understand, that relationship didn't turn out so well.


oh cool, nice to have a discussion with someone that reads two lines.


Romance? You mean the kiss on the forehead he got after he got KTFO by Ren? Or the fact he got friendzoned while in said coma?

Im not getting at anything. Im getting at the fact Hypes definition for Finn is 100% correct.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 03:24:58 pm

Romance? You mean the kiss on the forehead he got...



What were you expecting?  ???

Somethin' like that encounter between Marcus & Jackie in that New Orleans hotel from 'Boomerang'?   :)




...after he got KTFO by Ren?



Y'mean th' guy who commands an entire galactic military and experienced force user who wields a deadly light saber?

Is that the one you're talkin' about?




...Or the fact he got friendzoned while in said coma?


At least she's waiting for him until he recovers.

That says something, yes?  :)



Im not getting at anything.



Here's where we have an agreement...  (http://i.imgur.com/qTKfZHH.gif)





Im getting at the fact Hypes definition for Finn is 100% correct.




...and here's where we agree to disagree. (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif) :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 10, 2017, 05:52:02 pm
Yeah, i bet that stormtroooer that whooped his ass was awesome too right?



Enjoy 7th (rey, luke, kylo, snoke, leia, poe) at best most important person in the movie :) hope hes everything u want :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 10, 2017, 07:15:46 pm

Yeah, i bet that stormtroooer that whooped his ass was awesome too right?


I don't even know what this comment means. :-\








Enjoy 7th (rey, luke, kylo, snoke, leia, poe) at best most important person in the movie :) hope hes everything u want :)




Try to remember that Finn's defection & ability to improvise a daring heroic rescue and escape enabled The Resistance to have a tactical edge against this new galactic Empire.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 11, 2017, 02:34:58 pm
Battle,

Finn didn't defect, he deserted. That's a difference. He didn't join the Resistance, he just ran away from the First Order.


Mind of Shadow,

I totally get what you and Hype are saying and I've said similar things. Finn got whooped by the nameless Stormtrooper who some fans started calling T8TR during the scene where the First Order and Resistance were fighting and Rey was captured.

Finn was a reluctant hero. Even the Entertainment Weekly article calls him that. Now in the past some have argued that that was a good thing, that Han was also reluctant. Which is true, but Han eventually turned around and grew from being selfish to being part of something bigger than himself. It is likely that Finn will have a similar arc though it appears like they are stretching that out, and that's to Finn's detriment.

Finn didn't rescue Rey. The film made sure to show that Rey rescued herself. Finn did help out, though he needed help taking down Phasma-though he did identify her as being someone to take down-and Finn played a role during the destruction of Starkiller Base though after admitting he was a janitor and didn't known much about the workings of the base. He didn't get any clear wins like Luke or Han did in Episode IV and he didn't even get an accidental win like Anakin did in Episode I.

They couldn't let Finn have a clean win. And Luke was naive and idealistic but no where near as awkward as Finn or even in the friend zone like Finn. Leia did kiss him-twice I believe-though once was to spite Han. That's more than the chaste forehead kiss the comatose Finn got after he risked his life to 'save' Rey. That was like her kissing a favorite pet. The feminist and white agenda in effect in the Force Awakens made sure that Finn would not save Rey and that her knocking his hand away or escaping from Kylo Ren on her own were touted as girl power, which they were, but noticeably at the expense of a black male character.

Finn did fight Ren, for Rey. If Rey's life wouldn't have been in danger Finn wouldn't have been around. And to his credit, he did last a little while against Ren. Though that might have been because Ren was injured or toying with Finn.

What I'm guessing is that the new character Rose will be a love interest or something close to that for Finn to keep his black paws off pristine lily white Rey.

I think some black folks are blinded by the fact that a black face is in this new Star Wars triumvirate without considering what kind of character Finn is portraying. Simply having representation is not enough. If this was the '60s, fine, but it's the 21st century, and the idea that we should accept, ignore, or make excuses for problematic portrayals of black characters, even in the franchises we love (and I do love Star Wars) is worrisome. But I think too many of us are just happy to see somebody black on screen and we don't expect anything more than that.

To me, Finn was a colossal fail, even worse than Jar Jar Binks. At least with Binks, he was a CGI creation and he was countered by Samuel L. Jackson's Mace Windu. So far there isn't any other black character in this new Star Wars. There was one black female in Force Awakens, Korr Sella, who had no dialogue before the planet she was on was destroyed. In the canon she was Leia's assistant. In the novels set between Episodes VI and VII there is at least one other important black character, Rae Sloane, but so far she has not debuted in live-action.

Also, the b.s. future or end result of the Han and Leia relationship foisted on us by The Force Awakens erases, but can't completely, the tons of now non-canon material that did explore their relationship. Their marriage was an important part of the canon before the Disney buy out. Also, I'm guessing that the canon Marvel comics is building or will build on that relationship. It is very doubtful we will see anything similar to Finn with Rose (and definitely not Rey). Even with TFA we saw glimpses that Han and Leia still cared for each other even if they couldn't live together anymore.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Korr_Sella (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Korr_Sella)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rae_Sloane (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rae_Sloane)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 11, 2017, 06:44:31 pm
Battle,

Finn didn't defect, he deserted. That's a difference. He didn't join the Resistance, he just ran away from the First Order.







Ummmmmm-m-m-m...



No.

If Finn had deserted the First Order, he wouldn't need to leave his unit. He could just commit infractions by disobeying a direct order (which he did) and be re-conditioned for correction which is what his first officer had planned to do but before that could happen, Finn put his plan in motion.

What made Finn's actions a defection is that he willingly joined The Resistance and shared military secrets with them, transitioning his methods into a espionage and subversion mission.

That's why members of the The First Order shouted, "Traitor!!!" at first sight of him in pursuit.

Citing another example in the Star Wars Extended Universe, one of the earliest characters of two to defect from the Galactic Empire came from the 'Dark Forces' series, an officer named Kyle Katarn who became a mercenary for the Rebels working directly for Mon Mothma without actually joining them. I forget who the other officer was but I do remember he was a character from 'Return Of The Jedi'. 

Anyway, the point is that defections were quite common in the Star Wars universe, not desertions.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 12, 2017, 09:40:10 am
Here is the definition of desertion from Wikipedia:

In military terminology, desertion is the abandonment of a duty or post without permission (a pass, liberty or leave) and is done with the intention of not returning. In contrast, unauthorized absence (UA) or absence without leave (US: AWOL; Commonwealth: AWL) refers to a temporary absence.
Contents


Finn deserted the First Order. He only assisted Poe to get away from the First Order and he was adamant about getting as far away from them as possible up until Rey was captured by them. That's when he joined forces with the Resistance. He did not join the Resistance. He didn't, as of TFA, make that commitment. The Kyle Katarn example is a good illustration of how a person can work with the rebels yet not be a member of the Rebel Alliance.

Finn's actions were driven by his infatuation for Rey, not by any moral cause or identification with the Resistance. And to be fair, the film didn't do much to really explain if the Resistance was actually good or not. From what little I understand, the Resistance is unsanctioned by the New Republic, but was receiving tacit support from the New Republic so it makes their status a little murky to me. I just accept them as good because Leia is one of their leaders and the new heroes are working with them, but the organization, goals, and history of the Resistance haven't been laid out enough on film for me to make a conclusive judgment about that.

Granted, the First Order was painted as the obvious bad guys, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Resistance is 'good' either. The politics of the original trilogy were more black and white IMO. Lucas brought more political complexity in the prequels and I'm still waiting to see how things will shake out with this new trilogy of films. Also Rogue One juxtaposed the more 'noble' Rebellion of Mon Mothma, etc. versus Saw Gerrera's extremist Partisans, adding more complexity to the overall rebellion as well, which also muddies who and what the Resistance could be about for me.

Finn being called a traitor just means that he deserted the First Order and was seen in the company of rebels so that would make sense that he would be considered a traitor. He was a traitor to the First Order. The scant information coming out about The Last Jedi says Finn is reluctant and he still wants to leave, but now it appears he's caught up in a web of expectations that he can't break away from. And that's another sign of his weakness as a character. Outside of his initial noble and brave refusal to commit an atrocity and helping Poe, his character has been chipped away at, until he became a puppy dog for Rey, his thing for her even overriding his justifiable fear of the First Order. Finn's not driving things, he's not making decisions. Han, Leia, Luke all made decisions from a driver's seat perspective. Sure there might have also been the pull of destiny or the Force for Luke in particular, but he remained a dynamic figure in the original trilogy. Finn's spark of defiance and testosterone was extinguished at the end of TFA and it remains to be seen if it can be revived in the future films.

As it stands, what kid would want to be Finn on the playground? What is Finn good at? He's not the best soldier, not a pilot, doesn't have the Force. He's not the smartest person in the room. He might have leadership skills but those have yet to emerge on screen. He's a superfluous character who some folks are supporting so hard because of their desire for representation at just about any cost, IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion)

Also, desertion isn't unprecedented in Star Wars stories.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_Lawquane (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cut_Lawquane)

I checked out Finn's page on Wookieepedia and here's what it says, basically that Finn deserted the First Order and joined the Resistance:


    "I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing. But my first battle, I made a choice. I wasn't gonna kill for them. So I ran. Right into you. And you looked at me like no one ever had. I was ashamed of what I was. But I'm done with the First Order. I'm never going back."
    ―Finn, to Rey[src]


Finn was a human male who served as a First Order stormtrooper, designation FN-2187 and known to his fellow soldiers as Eight-Seven. He was considered one of the group's best stormtroopers before he deserted to join the Resistance in their struggle against the First Order.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 12, 2017, 09:57:44 am
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.

2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 12, 2017, 10:06:21 am
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.

2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.

I think the idea of Finn as either a Stormtrooper or a Jedi really set off some trolls on the internet, but once they saw what Finn turned out to be you don't hear any complaints from them anymore. Despite Finn having that lightsaber in the trailer and on posters, I never really thought of him as being a Jedi. So it wasn't a shock to me that Rey was the Jedi.

I was disappointed that Finn at least couldn't be a badass Stormtrooper. That he's stumbling, bumbling, sweaty, and white girl crazy. And the kicker was that he was a janitor to boot. They couldn't let him own one real cool thing in the film. Finn was like a checklist of black stereotypes and it was hard to believe that they were actually doing this in a Star Wars film so openly today, especially with J.J Abrams in the directing chair. It was like they had learned nothing from Jar Jar Binks and went even harder with Finn, not hiding the racism behind CGI this time. And this time, for the most part, black fandom embraced Finn. They identified with Finn perhaps on some level and ignored, downplayed, or rejected the racism embodied in the character. The desire for validation, for inclusion was so strong they didn't care how degrading it was. And that's where I think we are in this social media age as a people.

It's odd that the books would build him up and the film not use any of it, though that's not without precedent (i.e. General Grievous). Grievous was really puffed up in the pre-Episode III materials and then had a lackluster showing in the film itself.

I have to wonder if they made Finn so lame to definitely make him non-relationship material for Rey. I mean if he was confident and cool and at least capable, how could Rey not like him? The two actors had chemistry. They worked well together, but handicapping him the way the film did made him less of a romantic potential partner and just a very loyal friend. It even made his sacrifice to save her at the end less noble and more pathetic, like he was simping.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 12, 2017, 10:18:39 am
yep... elite storm trooper, best of his kind...

to janitor.

The stuff of legends right htere
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 12, 2017, 01:10:58 pm
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.





I'm going to recommend a song for you so that you don't fall for 'Jedi mind tricks' ever again. (http://i.imgur.com/7evTJ6m.gif)


Public Enemy - "Don't Believe The Hype"



2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.





I keep sayin'...

You were watching a completely different movie. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 12, 2017, 01:17:46 pm
>>> emperorjones



(https://i.imgur.com/sGMAJSF.png)

Crix Madine.

That was the name of the other officer in the 'Dark forces' series featured in 'Return Of The Jedi' who defected from the Imperial Army.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 12, 2017, 01:46:07 pm
What sucks the most is two things:

1) he was marketed as a GD force sensitive potential Jedi. If this never would have hapepned, hionestly, I don't think I would care as much as I do about this. Its just so irritating.





I'm going to recommend a song for you so that you don't fall for 'Jedi mind tricks' ever again. ([url]http://i.imgur.com/7evTJ6m.gif[/url])


Public Enemy - "Don't Believe The Hype"



2) his "background" in the novels, he was an elite, if not the best, stormtrooper ever. His skills were off the charts. None of that carried over to the movie.





I keep sayin'...

You're were watching a completely different movie. :)


Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 12, 2017, 02:02:49 pm

Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine






In 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', Han gets poked to death, Kylo Ren gets beaten by a girl and Finn gets the kiss from the girl without even trying.  ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 12, 2017, 02:37:13 pm
Battle,

Bodhi Rook from Rogue One was also an Imperial defector.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bodhi_Rook (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bodhi_Rook)

And Kallus from Rebels.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alexsandr_Kallus (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alexsandr_Kallus)

As for the discrepancies between the novel Finn and the movie Finn that's a problem because under Disney all of the books and comics are supposed to be canon. The CGI Clone Wars cartoon and Rebels are also canon. Under Lucas the canonicity (sp) of the novels, comics, and many of the animated shows was sketchy. I've read that Lucas considered the expanded universe of his time as more like an alternate universe; yet he would bring in ideas from the EU when he wanted and leave others alone. He also invested the Clone Wars cartoon creators with the authority to change stuff that came from books as well. I think most fans just accepted the EU as 'canon' unless it was completely contradicted or overturned by something in live-action. I do think the novel writers for example did try to connect everything.

But once Disney took over they established clearly that the new stuff under them was all canonical. Eventually that will get too unwieldy and they will probably change that, but right now, the novels should be canon. So I do get why MOS felt cheated or disappointed at the movie portrayal of Finn. Unlike the discrepancy with Grievous where the canon of the novels and cartoons was nebulous, it was supposed to be seamless with Finn.

So somewhere along the way there was a change with how someone felt Finn perhaps should be portrayed in the film. I know early in the process the character that became Finn was conceived as white. I wonder once they decided on having a black actor playing him did they also change the character more to fit the white idea of what a 'black hero' should be? And was that changed even further from the novel to the film?

Did the film come out before the novel or vice versa?  I wonder how much access to the script that the author had if the book came out before the movie or was written before the movie. Maybe the writer was working off an older script, and Finn's character changed in later rewrites.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 12, 2017, 02:40:17 pm

Name one thing that he did that showed he was "elite" at anything?

Hell... HE GOT BEAT BY ANOTHER STORM TROOPER ONE ON ONE!


I head he was an elite mopper though. And he made those Stark Killer windows shine






In 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens', Han gets poked to death, Kylo Ren gets beaten by a girl and Finn gets the kiss from the girl without even trying.  ;)

Finn literally busted his ass to get that kiss and he got was a forehead smooch when he was unconscious. He won't even remember that. Han got a big death scene after being a hero in three other movies and also a hero in The Force Awakens. Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air, and we never even saw Vader or Palpatine do that. Ren was poorly handled IMO but that at least showed the potential the character has.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 12, 2017, 03:08:59 pm
...Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air...




...but he couldn't stop Finn from relaying to The Resistance information that caused the destruction of the First Order's super weapon.

No one could.  8)


If anyone was 'the reluctant hero', Han gets that credit in 'A New Hope'.


What Hollywood movie you've seen where the guy doesn't have to work hard to get the girl?
In 'Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back', Luke Skywalker gets not one but two (http://i.imgur.com/11Qgc6y.gif) kisses from the Princess and he lost his right hand in a light saber duel, nearly froze to death on Planet Hoth, got a thorough Jedi training workout by Yoda and jumps to his death in Cloud City.

Hudlin Brothers from 'Boomerang': "Gotta get that gold if you wanna get that girl!"
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 12, 2017, 03:45:50 pm
Ok got it, coukdnt think of anything, that's fine.  Just say so homey. 

Han at least got a feat before dying heroically

And ren had multiple along with a back story that implies hes not someone ti trifke with. But hes a bad guy.. of coyrse he ended uo losing.

Phasma and finn had pre movie hype and were both chumps
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 12, 2017, 06:43:52 pm
 
Han at least got a feat before dying heroically



What feat?

'Dying heroically'?  ???
 He's a bad father.  He went out like a sucka.





And ren ...



Got beat by both Finn & Rey.


The End.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on August 12, 2017, 07:37:50 pm
Even though I like the characters, there is reason why Rey is, in attempting to show girl power, a Mary Sue; Flynn while trying to be cast in the Han Solo model doesn't quite make it...attempts at humor (he's a janitor, rather than a sentry) diminish the character.  Poe is a cypher--most of his greatest aspects are assumed, spoken about, but not seen. Han is a plot device (also with attempts at humor sacrificing the character), Chewbecca is wallpaper.  Rylo Ken is more whiny teenager than dark villain!

The show banks on nostalgia and hope, to make us see more in the characters and story than there really is. 

In first viewing Rogue One was better.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 13, 2017, 02:34:04 am
...Ren stopped a blaster bolt mid-air...




...but he couldn't stop Finn from relaying to The Resistance information that caused the destruction of the First Order's super weapon.

No one could.  8)


If anyone was 'the reluctant hero', Han gets that credit in 'A New Hope'.


What Hollywood movie you've seen where the guy doesn't have to work hard to get the girl?
In 'Star wars: The Empire Strikes Back', Luke Skywalker gets not one but two ([url]http://i.imgur.com/11Qgc6y.gif[/url]) kisses from the Princess and he lost his right hand in a light saber duel, nearly froze to death on Planet Hoth, got a thorough Jedi training workout by Yoda and jumps to his death in Cloud City.

Hudlin Brothers from 'Boomerang': "Gotta get that gold if you wanna get that girl!"


To your question about Hollywood films, I immediately thought about James Bond. Does he have to work hard ever to get the girl? And there are countless white heroes in cinema that get women effortlessly. And for black heroes, I got to reach back to Shaft, but I'm sure there are others if I thought about it.

Han was a reluctant hero who made a decisive turn to help Luke out in A New Hope, his move being key to the destruction of the Death Star. He wasn't in a coma by the end of the film. He was being lauded as a hero of the Rebellion.

Ren couldn't stop a lot of things in that movie. After he stopped that bolt, showing his power, the film then went to lengths showing how inexperienced and poorly trained he was. So he was inconsistently portrayed and whiny to boot. At the end of the film Snoke even said he had complete his training.

I think you're overestimating Finn's importance. He was a janitor who bluffed that he knew more than he did. And he got by due to luck, chance, and perhaps the ways of the Force. He was no Galen Erso. It would've been great if Finn had been an engineer working on Starkiller Base who did defect, but that's not what we got. We got a janitor who for some reason was put on this mission to Jakku. He balked, a spasm of conscience there, at committing a massacre, and then wanted out at all cost, and it was that fear that drove a lot of his actions going forward. And that doesn't mean there wasn't some decency with the character. He didn't want to be part of the First Order, but he also didn't think they could be defeated and wasn't even trying to do so. He just wanted to run from them. I don't understand why that's so hard to see. Finn basically says that in the film. It's like there is this desire to make Finn this straight up hero that he wasn't. He was an accidental or incidental hero at best. And he was reluctant, as the article says.

Finn did not beat Ren. How is winding up in a coma a victory? Finn held his own for a little while against Ren, to be fair, but perhaps that was just a good slave defending his mistress. But at the end of that fight Finn was on the ground and unconscious. Rey defeated Ren. Once again, that's clearly in the film but it's like a willful desire not to see that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 13, 2017, 02:47:53 am
Even though I like the characters, there is reason why Rey is, in attempting to show girl power, a Mary Sue; Flynn while trying to be cast in the Han Solo model doesn't quite make it...attempts at humor (he's a janitor, rather than a sentry) diminish the character.  Poe is a cypher--most of his greatest aspects are assumed, spoken about, but not seen. Han is a plot device (also with attempts at humor sacrificing the character), Chewbecca is wallpaper.  Rylo Ken is more whiny teenager than dark villain!

The show banks on nostalgia and hope, to make us see more in the characters and story than there really is. 

In first viewing Rogue One was better.


I agree a lot with what you say here Kip. I liked Rogue One a lot better too, however I think Rogue One could've done a better job of fleshing out the characters more than it did. I wish we had seen more of Cassian's backstory and the history between Saw and Jynn. I also wish the blind mystic had been a Jedi.

But as to TFA, yeah, I mean the movie banked heavily on nostalgia and the idea that the prequels were so bad-which in hindsight they weren't-that TFA was this great return to Star Wars. All it was was a warmed over Episode IV, with less interesting characters, and watered down villains. It was like the Resistance and First Order were just pale imitations of the Rebellion and Empire.

And I really didn't like how TFA crapped over the original trilogy characters making them essentially failures. Luke runs away. Han runs away. Leia has become this hardened general. R2D2 was deactivated for years it seems. Han wouldn't have found the Falcon in all that time? Come on.

I also think that Rey was a Mary Sue. And it was about girl power. But in this climate you aren't supposed to say that, but it's true. I like Daisy Ridley but I thought Rey was too powerful, too quickly, and stuff came too easily to her. In Episode I, Anakin had lost pod races before he finally won the crucial one. And in that movie he destroyed the Trade Federation command ship by accident essentially. In Episode II he gets his arm cut off and in Episode III he takes that lava bath, and he's supposed to be Lucas's Chosen One. Heck, the only straight victory Vader had in the entire saga was Episode V, and even then, he fails to collect Luke so he can turn him to the dark side. And when you look at Luke, he destroyed the Death Star with assistance from Han and Obi-Wan, got beaten decisively by Vader in the next film, and only beats Vader in Episode VI because Vader doesn't really want to fight him (IMO), and he's fried by the Emperor (albeit he wasn't trying to fight the Emperor), and we see in Episode VII that he ran away.

Yet Rey, in her first film, has already defeated the Jedi mind trick, had learned how to pilot the Millennium Falcon, defeated the top enforcer of the First Order, and this is all before she begins her training with Luke. They are going to have to power Ren up something fierce for him to be seen as a legitimate threat to her and I think they made him so whiny and weak in the first movie that it's going to be hard to pull off. I hate that they took Maul off the table because this new round of films needs someone that exudes menace and is a credible threat to the heroes and right now it's not Ren. The second movie in the trilogy is where the main hero loses a limb but I can't see them doing that with Rey. I think girl power and reluctance to show violence against women will make them skittish about that. So if she doesn't lose a limb she might have to lose another friend to give her some kind of loss. Finn, here's hoping they keep you away from Rey this next film because it might be him on the menu.

If they want to keep with the girl power theme just create a female Sith, Dark Jedi, or Imperial character instead of Ren. They've got plenty of examples to draw from.

Some I think they should look at are:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurra_Sing (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurra_Sing)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Sister (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Sister)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lumiya (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lumiya)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vestara_Khai (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vestara_Khai)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Talon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Talon)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maladi (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maladi)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Barriss_Offee (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Barriss_Offee)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maris_Brood (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maris_Brood)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sev'rance_Tann (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sev'rance_Tann)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysanne_Isard (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysanne_Isard)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Natasi_Daala (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Natasi_Daala)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 13, 2017, 05:10:10 am
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Hypestyle on August 13, 2017, 07:03:27 am
so who were finn's parents? how are stormtroopers bred?  do you just volunteer?  are they hijacked at a young age and indoctrinated?

has this been explored in the novels anywhere? the comics?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 13, 2017, 07:26:04 am

Han was a reluctant hero who made a decisive turn to help Luke out in A New Hope, his move being key to the destruction of the Death Star. He wasn't in a coma by the end of the film. He was being lauded as a hero of the Rebellion.



(http://i.imgur.com/7hMKpE1.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Mxhq9Ok.gif) Hmmm...
Looks kinda familiar but I'm not exactly sure why...



Ren couldn't stop a lot of things in that movie. After he stopped that bolt, showing his power, the film then went to lengths showing how inexperienced and poorly trained he was. So he was inconsistently portrayed and whiny to boot.



Yep.
Very familiar...

(http://i.imgur.com/UpwzEaH.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/bGZ4ZLA.jpg)



Finn did not beat Ren. How is winding up in a coma a victory? Finn held his own for a little while against Ren, to be fair, but perhaps that was just a good slave defending his mistress. But at the end of that fight Finn was on the ground and unconscious. Rey defeated Ren. Once again, that's clearly in the film but it's like a willful desire not to see that.




(http://i.imgur.com/Id25X8o.jpg)

James 1:12

"Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 13, 2017, 03:00:46 pm
Wow,

You went Biblical on me huh? So, is Finn supposed to be Luke or Han, or some even more awesome combination of both?

Finn worked the Falcon's guns, as did Luke, so what? Luke arguably did as good or better with the Falcon's guns with zero experience compared to Finn. And Han's being trapped in carbonite (sp) was a key moment in the saga, a major cliffhanger. Finn's coma is not that. Finn was taken down, or put to the side, to give Rey time to shine. Han's entrapment came after more heroic moments and a clear burgeoning romance with Leia, so we felt for him and his predicament and for his friends' loss.

I think Lucas said that poetry sometimes rhymes so if I really wanted to dig around I could come up with various homages throughout the franchise to previous films. And with TFA basically ripping off Episode IV it's not that big of a deal that there might be scenes that allude to other films or characters. Neither Luke or Han were made out to be jokes and neither was shown to be as poor as handling themselves as Finn was.

I know you're trying your hardest to ignore how lame Finn was, but it's just not going to work. And that's nothing against Boyega. His likability was one of the few strong points the Finn character had. It's just how he was written and conceived and depicted that I have a problem with.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 13, 2017, 03:05:31 pm
so who were finn's parents? how are stormtroopers bred?  do you just volunteer?  are they hijacked at a young age and indoctrinated?

has this been explored in the novels anywhere? the comics?


Finn's parents haven't been identified, to my knowledge. In TFA, General Hux mentions that the new stormtroopers are taken early in childhood so I'm assuming that at least part of the First Order stormtrooper ranks are filled with essentially slave soldiers.

From the Wookieepedia entry:

Through this policy emerged a new generation of stormtroopers; an army of soldiers inspired by their clone and Imperial predecessors, they were taken from their parents at birth and raised to be absolutely loyal to the First Order.[1]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_(First_Order) (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stormtrooper_(First_Order))
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 13, 2017, 03:10:49 pm
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.


I liked Rogue One though the first half was a little slow. And it was a darker film than I was anticipating. This film presented the most morally gray heroes I've seen thus far in a Star Wars film. Lucas tried to pull that off in the prequels but he just didn't have the skills, and perhaps the inclination, to show Anakin in a gray zone. Lucas just had to have go the kid route in Episode I and he didn't know how to take a character from innocent child to mass murdering adult in an organic, rational way.

I do think Rogue One did have some balls. I loved the Vader scene toward the end, though it's not as impressive upon repeated viewing.

I'm also a fan of the comics (both Dark Horse and Marvel), fan of Clone Wars and Rebels has grown on me. I also liked some of the pre-Disney Star Wars novels. It appears I'm one of the few people who liked the New Jedi Order series and the Yuuzhan Vong.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 13, 2017, 03:28:48 pm
Wow,

You went Biblical on me huh?


Now, you're impressed? ;D

That verse I quoted describes why Finn & Rey won this victory.

It's survival of the fittest that wins victories, not flagrant displays of perceived power.

See, arguing with you isn't even a chore or a challenge. Arguing with you is an opportunity  (for all the world to see) to point out your glaring descrepancies.
In some of your sentences you are able to make points and substantiate them, in other parts of your sentences you get lost in this whole passive/ aggressive, sarcastic shtick. That's why I am selective when responding to you.
You seem smart enough to form a complete sentence that conveys some kind of thought pattern but are having extreme difficulty getting over that hump of monotony that plagues so many of our discussions.


Then there's this whole wall of text you erect in response that completely misses the point altogether.
Heh. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 13, 2017, 04:09:39 pm
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.


I liked Rogue One though the first half was a little slow. And it was a darker film than I was anticipating. This film presented the most morally gray heroes I've seen thus far in a Star Wars film. Lucas tried to pull that off in the prequels but he just didn't have the skills, and perhaps the inclination, to show Anakin in a gray zone. Lucas just had to have go the kid route in Episode I and he didn't know how to take a character from innocent child to mass murdering adult in an organic, rational way.

I do think Rogue One did have some balls. I loved the Vader scene toward the end, though it's not as impressive upon repeated viewing.

I'm also a fan of the comics (both Dark Horse and Marvel), fan of Clone Wars and Rebels has grown on me. I also liked some of the pre-Disney Star Wars novels. It appears I'm one of the few people who liked the New Jedi Order series and the Yuuzhan Vong.

[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url] ([url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url])


I liked many of the ideas in tge cartoons and comics surrounding force sensitives. And many of the characters introduced there.

And in am just talking the current canon stuff too. Not even tge old EU.

Thats why TFA just felt so... bland.  Instead of going places the cartoons and comics went.. it just did an updated remake
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 14, 2017, 03:01:43 am
Wow,

You went Biblical on me huh?


Now, you're impressed? ;D

That verse I quoted describes why Finn & Rey won this victory.

It's survival of the fittest that wins victories, not flagrant displays of perceived power.

See, arguing with you isn't even a chore or a challenge. Arguing with you is an opportunity  (for all the world to see) to point out your glaring descrepancies.
In some of your sentences you are able to make points and substantiate them, in other parts of your sentences you get lost in this whole passive/ aggressive, sarcastic shtick. That's why I am selective when responding to you.
You seem smart enough to form a complete sentence that conveys some kind of thought pattern but are having extreme difficulty getting over that hump of monotony that plagues so many of our discussions.


Then there's this whole wall of text you erect in response that completely misses the point altogether.
Heh. :)

Wow, Battle, way to be very condescending here. Since you opened the door I'm going to walk on in.

Me pointing out your resorting to the Bible was not praise. It was sarcasm, or as you might accuse, me being passive/aggressive. You are selective in your responses because you can't, and really never have in all of our exchanges, effectively rebutted a lot of what I say so you move on to something else or simply restate your arguments.

You pick and choose because you know you can't really argue with a lot of what I'm saying. And you're too prideful to admit that you're stumped and that maybe it's you that can take some of our conversations as an opportunity to learn. I've brought 'receipts' in this conversation alone which counters or straight up exposes some of your arguments, but you won't acknowledge that, you are too committed to your personal view of Finn, just like you have been to your personal view of Hillary, etc. For you it's a matter of belief, and the facts be damned if they contradict those beliefs.

I don't think you even know what survival of the fittest means. Finn was in a coma at the end of TFA. Both Rey and Ren were still conscious. Rey defeated Ren but she was also helped by the cracking up of the planet as well which prevented Ren from continuing the fight. Rey is the uber Force user in this new round of the saga so she would fit the definition of the fittest. And it remains to be seen if Ren will, but he certainly has been over Finn. Ren took a bowcaster blast and was still able to be on his feet and defeat Finn and was in the fight for a minute with Rey, that's not 'perceived' power. Catching a blaster bolt in midair is not 'perceived'. He did that.

Don't get mad at me because you have a short attention span or poor reading comprehension and can't read my responses. It's very immature and petty to insult me or even argue if you don't even read or understand what I've written. Also don't tell me how much I can write on any subject. I lay out the fullness of my arguments so that I am satisfied that I have made my point. I don't think it's the 'wall of text' that bother you so much as you can't refute my arguments so you resort to condescension.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 14, 2017, 03:12:56 am
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.


I liked Rogue One though the first half was a little slow. And it was a darker film than I was anticipating. This film presented the most morally gray heroes I've seen thus far in a Star Wars film. Lucas tried to pull that off in the prequels but he just didn't have the skills, and perhaps the inclination, to show Anakin in a gray zone. Lucas just had to have go the kid route in Episode I and he didn't know how to take a character from innocent child to mass murdering adult in an organic, rational way.

I do think Rogue One did have some balls. I loved the Vader scene toward the end, though it's not as impressive upon repeated viewing.

I'm also a fan of the comics (both Dark Horse and Marvel), fan of Clone Wars and Rebels has grown on me. I also liked some of the pre-Disney Star Wars novels. It appears I'm one of the few people who liked the New Jedi Order series and the Yuuzhan Vong.

[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url] ([url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url])


I liked many of the ideas in tge cartoons and comics surrounding force sensitives. And many of the characters introduced there.

And in am just talking the current canon stuff too. Not even tge old EU.

Thats why TFA just felt so... bland.  Instead of going places the cartoons and comics went.. it just did an updated remake


I can buy the argument that Disney might have been very cautious about TFA and wanted to go with a tried and true Star Wars story (essentially a remake of ANH) their first time  out. But to me, Star Wars is the franchise to take risks on. It has a global audience, with thousands at the least, who are used to an expansion of the universe via the cartoons, novels, comics, or video games. So I think Star Wars fans are very open to seeing new stories, different stories set in in the Star Wars universe.

I think Disney was overcautious and TFA lacked ambition and vision. Perhaps Disney was counting on the new diversity of the leads to paper over the unoriginal story in TFA but that only went so far IMO.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on August 14, 2017, 04:15:34 am
>>>emperorjones

Just what I expected...
---Wall Of Text.  ;D





Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on August 14, 2017, 04:44:25 am
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.


I liked Rogue One though the first half was a little slow. And it was a darker film than I was anticipating. This film presented the most morally gray heroes I've seen thus far in a Star Wars film. Lucas tried to pull that off in the prequels but he just didn't have the skills, and perhaps the inclination, to show Anakin in a gray zone. Lucas just had to have go the kid route in Episode I and he didn't know how to take a character from innocent child to mass murdering adult in an organic, rational way.

I do think Rogue One did have some balls. I loved the Vader scene toward the end, though it's not as impressive upon repeated viewing.

I'm also a fan of the comics (both Dark Horse and Marvel), fan of Clone Wars and Rebels has grown on me. I also liked some of the pre-Disney Star Wars novels. It appears I'm one of the few people who liked the New Jedi Order series and the Yuuzhan Vong.

[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url] ([url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url])


I liked many of the ideas in tge cartoons and comics surrounding force sensitives. And many of the characters introduced there.

And in am just talking the current canon stuff too. Not even tge old EU.

Thats why TFA just felt so... bland.  Instead of going places the cartoons and comics went.. it just did an updated remake


I can buy the argument that Disney might have been very cautious about TFA and wanted to go with a tried and true Star Wars story (essentially a remake of ANH) their first time  out. But to me, Star Wars is the franchise to take risks on. It has a global audience, with thousands at the least, who are used to an expansion of the universe via the cartoons, novels, comics, or video games. So I think Star Wars fans are very open to seeing new stories, different stories set in in the Star Wars universe.

I think Disney was overcautious and TFA lacked ambition and vision. Perhaps Disney was counting on the new diversity of the leads to paper over the unoriginal story in TFA but that only went so far IMO.


And then Disney went the complete other way with Rogue One. It was anything but safe.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 14, 2017, 03:14:42 pm
>>>emperorjones

Just what I expected...
---Wall Of Text.  ;D

Not surprised that you have no real reply so you go with an insult. Or what you think is an insult.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on August 14, 2017, 03:16:39 pm
TFA was lazy as f*ck.

The only reason it has any substance and is still talked about is all the "mystery" aka sh*t they didnt bother explaining.

I thought rogue one was boring but the movie had balls as least.

I think clone wars, rebels, and the comics are the best thing to come out of star wars imo.


I liked Rogue One though the first half was a little slow. And it was a darker film than I was anticipating. This film presented the most morally gray heroes I've seen thus far in a Star Wars film. Lucas tried to pull that off in the prequels but he just didn't have the skills, and perhaps the inclination, to show Anakin in a gray zone. Lucas just had to have go the kid route in Episode I and he didn't know how to take a character from innocent child to mass murdering adult in an organic, rational way.

I do think Rogue One did have some balls. I loved the Vader scene toward the end, though it's not as impressive upon repeated viewing.

I'm also a fan of the comics (both Dark Horse and Marvel), fan of Clone Wars and Rebels has grown on me. I also liked some of the pre-Disney Star Wars novels. It appears I'm one of the few people who liked the New Jedi Order series and the Yuuzhan Vong.

[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url] ([url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong[/url])


I liked many of the ideas in tge cartoons and comics surrounding force sensitives. And many of the characters introduced there.

And in am just talking the current canon stuff too. Not even tge old EU.

Thats why TFA just felt so... bland.  Instead of going places the cartoons and comics went.. it just did an updated remake


I can buy the argument that Disney might have been very cautious about TFA and wanted to go with a tried and true Star Wars story (essentially a remake of ANH) their first time  out. But to me, Star Wars is the franchise to take risks on. It has a global audience, with thousands at the least, who are used to an expansion of the universe via the cartoons, novels, comics, or video games. So I think Star Wars fans are very open to seeing new stories, different stories set in in the Star Wars universe.

I think Disney was overcautious and TFA lacked ambition and vision. Perhaps Disney was counting on the new diversity of the leads to paper over the unoriginal story in TFA but that only went so far IMO.


And then Disney went the complete other way with Rogue One. It was anything but safe.


I think it was safe in a sense that it was merely filling in a blank part of a history that we already knew the outcome of. But since we already knew what happened to the Death Star it did allow them to take risks with the characters. And it was unexpected that they would bring Tarkin back and he play such a large role in the film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 02, 2017, 02:51:40 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/08/31/in-fake-star-wars-news-john-boyegas-dancing-offended-just-one-person/#4c403c2c3282 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/08/31/in-fake-star-wars-news-john-boyegas-dancing-offended-just-one-person/#4c403c2c3282)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-star-john-boyega-defends-carnival-grinding-1033941 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-star-john-boyega-defends-carnival-grinding-1033941)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/31/fans-possessive-john-boyega/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08/31/fans-possessive-john-boyega/)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/morganmurrell/john-boyega-dancing-notting-hill-carnival-london?utm_term=.haVoAXPXq#.uvJKYjEjD (http://www.buzzfeed.com/morganmurrell/john-boyega-dancing-notting-hill-carnival-london?utm_term=.haVoAXPXq#.uvJKYjEjD)

From what I saw, Boyega was not 'sexually aggressive' as the Forbes article, which was defending him, described. The dancer was backing it up into him. If anything, she was more aggressive than Boyega in that clip he himself posted. And the Bleeding Cool article makes it seem like actors don't have sex with their co-stars (Brad and Angelina hello?), but what I really think creeps the Bleeding Cool guy out is the idea of a black man and a white woman. And that fear of black male heterosexuality, the fear of black men, is at the root of this fake outrage over Boyega having fun as a young man in his 20s.

Boyega is lucky that the dancer was also black. If she had been white, there might have been more of a social media and mainstream media rush to paint him as a sexual offender.

Black male sexuality is still threatening to some white people, and that goes back to The Force Awakens, where I think that fear shaped how Rey and Finn interacted.



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 02, 2017, 09:20:13 am
That is news?


I hate this planet.


In other star wars news...


https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-we-finally-know-whether-star-wars-the-last-jedi-will-feature-a-new-death-star-a153602 (https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-we-finally-know-whether-star-wars-the-last-jedi-will-feature-a-new-death-star-a153602)


ANOTHER f*ckING DEATH STAR COPY???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 02, 2017, 07:18:05 pm
It's only news in that it shows how susceptible the media, or rather, the internet is to social media, in this case, one dude who saw something he didn't like, posted about it, and started a mini-whirlwind when news outlets started jumping on the story and making it into 'something'.

Thanks for posting about the Death Star.  It bothers me that Disney scrapped the old continuity from the books and comics which at least offered different kinds of super-weapons and not just redoing the Death Star over and over. And they presented different enemies like the Yuuzhan Vong (which I think would've been pretty cool to see in live-action and more in fitting with the sequels darker and dreary take on our heroes) or at least different takes on the Sith like the One Sith or the Lost Tribe of Sith instead of Ren's whiny Vader wannabe. I would've even rather seen Abeloth than Ren or Snoke at this point. Jacen Solo, even when they screwed him up as Caedus, still was more interesting than Ren thus far.

I wonder when people are going to see the new sequels as just being a knock off the the original trilogy, but just with less interesting characters? I'll keep saying it, but at least the prequels were different-poorly executed-but still they were different enough to stand out from the original series and add to it. It remains to be seen what, if anything, the new sequels will add to the overall saga that is different or new. Right now, the best thing I can see them saying they've added is more diversity, and even that is questionable. I will give them that they've created a new trilogy around characters who are not white males, but as for how much development Finn, Poe, and soon to be Rose, will get remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 03, 2017, 07:40:32 am
One thing people can't complain about the Prequels--no Death Star.

I get repeating it.  One could wonder why villains don't repeat a scheme that almost worked, but once in Return makes sense.  This screams a lack of imagination!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 03, 2017, 08:58:48 am
I am only a semi serious star wars fan, so msybe my opinion doesn't matter

But... arent the force sensitives the main "draw" of the sw franchise? Especially since the special effects and "omg space!" Isnt exactly special anymore.

So why articially limit them?

Even the rebels cartoon keep adding more and more jedi and dark users. But tge movies play it uber safe. Why? Have to maje the 4 billion back asap?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 03, 2017, 04:34:22 pm
One thing people can't complain about the Prequels--no Death Star.

I get repeating it.  One could wonder why villains don't repeat a scheme that almost worked, but once in Return makes sense.  This screams a lack of imagination!

I agree that it is a lack of imagination. We've had a Death Star show up in Revenge of the Sith, Rogue One, A New Hope, Return of the Jedi, and now The Last Jedi. There was also a schematic of one in Attack of the Clones. And Starkiller Base was basically a Death Star on steroids. It is a lack of imagination.

It seems like the First Order merely wants to emulate the Empire instead of actually winning. We've seen that putting all your eggs in one basket like with the Death Star or Starkiller Base doesn't work.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 03, 2017, 04:39:54 pm
I am only a semi serious star wars fan, so msybe my opinion doesn't matter

But... arent the force sensitives the main "draw" of the sw franchise? Especially since the special effects and "omg space!" Isnt exactly special anymore.

So why articially limit them?

Even the rebels cartoon keep adding more and more jedi and dark users. But tge movies play it uber safe. Why? Have to maje the 4 billion back asap?

I personally think that the Force users are the main draw for Star Wars, but I think other people would disagree. Some people like the smugglers, bounty hunters, or Mandalorians for example. Some claim that they are tired of the Jedi and Sith. Personally I like the Jedi and Sith so I'm always up to see more of them.

Actually in Rebels they are paring down the dark side users at least. They introduced the Inquisitor in Rebels Season 1 and other Inquisitors showed up in Season 2. But after that, with the series coming closer in time to Rogue One/A New Hope, I think they are removing the other dark side force users so that it will only be Vader. (I say only Vader because in the original trilogy no one knew Palpatine was a dark side force user or a Sith. I don't think the word Sith was even used in the original films back in the day from what I've heard, but Lucas might have inserted it into his special editions-I haven't checked). I'm watching season 3 of Rebels right now and there have been no dark side users on it. The focus has shifted to Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 05, 2017, 11:42:48 am
aww, im behind on rebels. Haven't watched after the Vader/Asoka fight


in other news


ďWe got the whole story of Palpatineís rise to power in the prequels, but in the original films heís exactly what he needs to be, which is just ĎThe Emperor.í  Heís a dark force: the scary thing behind the thing. That was entirely how I approached Snoke. I wasnít interested in explaining where he came from or telling his history, except where it serves this story.
Ē

man they aren't even trying to be inventive here
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 05, 2017, 03:52:32 pm
I'm not super impressed with Rebels Season 3 compared to Season 2. That quote about Snoke is just another sign of how unimaginative the new Star Wars crew is. I have to wonder if Disney is just playing it too safe.

They could easily do what they are describing with Snoke and just say he was Darth Plagueis or that he's really Plagueis. It ties right back into the prequels and helps connect the whole saga. And it creates a villain with more weight than what they might likely do with Snoke if he's simply a Palpatine clone, and one that is just introduced to the films. I'm holding out a little hope that since they said Snoke was around during the original trilogy that he is a character we already know (Luke, Tarkin, Thrawn, Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka for example).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Vic Vega on September 07, 2017, 08:02:30 am
One thing people can't complain about the Prequels--no Death Star.

I get repeating it.  One could wonder why villains don't repeat a scheme that almost worked, but once in Return makes sense.  This screams a lack of imagination!

In the EU  book series Jedi Academy we get to see the factory where all the Empire's Super Weapons are built. The Scientist themselves only care about research and were at best only dimly aware that A)the Empire had lost the war B)their work had killed billions.

And we get another one in that book series also...the Sun Crusher. But that was small enough that one guy could drive it. Someone had explained to them what happened with the Death Star.

This was mostly played for dark comedy as I remember it.

In general, Super Weapons are to the Star Wars Franchise what effete euro masterminds and hot chicks with improbable names are to the James Bond franchise: they are part of the fun.

You can not have them but then nobody is really happy with the end product. James Bond can kill Drug Lords in the 90's but nobody will really care. He can fight a crazed American mogul but nobody will really care. But bring in a Blofield clone or reboot Blofield and now everybody pays attention because killing Blofield is what Bond is supposed to do.

You can give Bond competent female sidekicks and everyone will say "Oh, that's nice." then they will forget she was ever there. Because it's not about them ever.

Its the same thing with the Super Weapons in Star Wars. The whole point of TFA was the franchise saying "OK we get it we know what you guys want...here it is". Including having stuff that peeps loved from the original series.

There is such a thing as a general consensus and they know what its like to be on the WRONG side of it. Because the Prequels Films were/are THAT hated (and no super weapons in the prequels either, you will notice) by everybody nearly.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 08, 2017, 05:47:50 pm
It wasn't the lack of super weapons that people didn't like the prequels. They didn't like the directing, writing, dialogue, overuse of CGI, some of the characters, and some of the actors. Technically the Death Star was in Revenge of the Sith and we did see a schematic of it in Attack of the Clones.

I do agree that TFA and Disney live-action Star Wars so far has been seeking to give fans what they want, which they seem to interpret is mainly give them something familiar. Right now, it's working well for them, but we'll see if it eventually becomes old hat. Which it might not. Perhaps the appetite for Star Wars is just that insatiable.

And while a lot of Star Wars novels, comics, and games do feature super weapons, others don't. Also the best regarded Star Wars film, Empire Strikes Back, didn't have a super weapon. I'm sure we can find some fan/online groaning about Return of the Jedi because it did show another Death Star.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 12, 2017, 01:42:34 pm
In this new movie, the primary character long-time Star Wars fans are going to really pay attention to is going to be Luke Skywalker. It's going to be interesting to see what pearls of wisdom Skywalker drops on everyone that measures up to past Jedi Masters considering that the only Jedi he ever met in the movies were Obiwan & Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 12, 2017, 04:11:01 pm
In this new movie, the primary character long-time Star Wars fans are going to really pay attention to is going to be Luke Skywalker. It's going to be interesting to see what pearls of wisdom Skywalker drops on everyone that measures up to past Jedi Masters considering that the only Jedi he ever met in the movies were Obiwan & Anakin.

....

Yoda?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 12, 2017, 07:33:07 pm
I just started to realize that no one has said anything about Lando at all being in this film. He's the last major actor (not counting the Emperor) from the original trilogy to not show up yet for this new round of films. Granted, Donald Glover will be playing Lando in the young Han Solo film, but it would be great to see Billy Dee Williams again.

This reminds me of the old novels in which they often ignored Lando or kept him a supporting character. And that's continuing into these new films. Perhaps giving Lando a sizable role could lessen some of the odious depiction of Finn. With a casino planet seeming to be a big deal in The Last Jedi, that's tailor made for Lando.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 14, 2017, 04:24:24 am
In this new movie, the primary character long-time Star Wars fans are going to really pay attention to is going to be Luke Skywalker. It's going to be interesting to see what pearls of wisdom Skywalker drops on everyone that measures up to past Jedi Masters considering that the only Jedi he ever met in the movies were Obiwan & Anakin.

....

Yoda?




Yow! :-[

How in the world could I forget Yoda.

Thanks for reminding me!  :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 14, 2017, 04:39:20 am
In this new movie, the primary character long-time Star Wars fans are going to really pay attention to is going to be Luke Skywalker. It's going to be interesting to see what pearls of wisdom Skywalker drops on everyone that measures up to past Jedi Masters considering that the only Jedi he ever met in the movies were Obiwan & Anakin.

....

Yoda?




Yow! :-[

How in the world could I forget Yoda.

Thanks for reminding me!  :)

technically he should be able to talk to Qui Gon's force ghost too.

All in all though, JUST looking at the movies, which many people rightfully do... the Jedi are kinda garbage lol.

They invariably end up training a super powerful evil dude (vader, ren) who kill a  ton of people... and then they go hide somewhere in exile.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 14, 2017, 05:43:40 am
In this new movie, the primary character long-time Star Wars fans are going to really pay attention to is going to be Luke Skywalker. It's going to be interesting to see what pearls of wisdom Skywalker drops on everyone that measures up to past Jedi Masters considering that the only Jedi he ever met in the movies were Obiwan & Anakin.

....

Yoda?




Yow! :-[

How in the world could I forget Yoda.

Thanks for reminding me!  :)

technically he should be able to talk to Qui Gon's force ghost too.

All in all though, JUST looking at the movies, which many people rightfully do... the Jedi are kinda garbage lol.

They invariably end up training a super powerful evil dude (vader, ren) who kill a  ton of people... and then they go hide somewhere in exile.



The Jedi are representatives of all the wise & good Samaritans in our world. The more Jedi active, the better the world becomes.

The Sith are representatives of a deceitful, self-destructive pair of evil incarnate where their affinity is so extreme there can only be two active at a time, just like in the real world. Wherever Sith are present, misery is sure to follow.

Both are trying to eliminate each other, however, for different reasons.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 15, 2017, 04:41:03 am
^
The Star Wars films, and some of the additional material, are a bit more complicated than that. At a basic level the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but we've seen the Jedi go along with a corrupt Republic in the prequels, defend law instead of justice (as when Qui Gonn refuses to free both Shmi and Anakin in The Phantom Menace) and sign on to lead the Clone Army (after Mace earlier declares in Attack of the Clones 'we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers'). The Jedi seem to have no problems with the idea of cloning or cloning massive numbers of people to be used as soldiers (slaves) either. And when Anakin reveals the truth about Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, Mace leads a group of Jedi Masters to remove him from power and though Mace does say he will let the Senate decide Palpatine's fate, he has six lightsabers on the man and the threat of assassination is clear. So basically the Jedi did attempt a coup. And from what we've seen that many in the Republic/Empire so readily accepted that the Jedi could attempt a coup is a sign to me of how ambivalent many people must have felt about the Jedi (it also didn't help that Dooku, an ex-Jedi, was leading the Separatists too).

In later (now non-canon) books the Jedi also did participate in a coup of the Galactic Alliance.

And we have seen the Jedi run away, in both Revenge of the Sith, the original films, and now with the new round of films. We've also seen how the Jedi disconnect from the people they are supposed to be protecting. How they take babies away from their parents, how they are cloistered in their nice little tower, how they forgo attachment. And even the idea of accountability. The Jedi are accountable to very few, and that itself could lead to abuse of power. The films didn't show really show that (the novels and comics I think did more so, with the use of the Dark Jedi), but the potential was and is there.

The films have less complicated when they portray the Sith. They are generally just evil. And the other material I've seen is pretty much the same. Though the non-canon novels could be a little different at times. I think the Del Ray novels were toying with the idea that Palpatine took over because he foresaw the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and Lumiya tempted Jacen Solo to turn Sith by presenting the idea of a more noble kind of Sith, and referenced Darth Vevictus, a Sith who died peacefully in his bed, surrounded by loved ones, a Sith who wasn't a madman. Unfortunately that book series didn't stay true to that and turned Jacen into a cackling madman, but I thought the idea was very cool, a Sith that wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 15, 2017, 05:42:17 am
There were hints in the trailer they may be going down the "grey jedi" path, which would be a welcome sight and some originality to the films.

Some of the stuff about the cartoons I enjoyed were the sith assasins, witches, dark saber clan dudes (lol can't remember name), rogue sith, guardian yellow saber jedi, jedi with different powers (tracker guy, maces shatterpoint stuff) ect.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 15, 2017, 06:19:12 am
There were hints in the trailer they may be going down the "grey jedi" path, which would be a welcome sight and some originality to the films.

Some of the stuff about the cartoons I enjoyed were the sith assasins, witches, dark saber clan dudes (lol can't remember name), rogue sith, guardian yellow saber jedi, jedi with different powers (tracker guy, maces shatterpoint stuff) ect.

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 15, 2017, 07:06:48 am
^
The Star Wars films, and some of the additional material, are a bit more complicated than that. At a basic level the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but we've seen the Jedi go along with a corrupt Republic in the prequels, defend law instead of justice (as when Qui Gonn refuses to free both Shmi and Anakin in The Phantom Menace) and sign on to lead the Clone Army (after Mace earlier declares in Attack of the Clones 'we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers'). The Jedi seem to have no problems with the idea of cloning or cloning massive numbers of people to be used as soldiers (slaves) either. And when Anakin reveals the truth about Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, Mace leads a group of Jedi Masters to remove him from power and though Mace does say he will let the Senate decide Palpatine's fate, he has six lightsabers on the man and the threat of assassination is clear. So basically the Jedi did attempt a coup. And from what we've seen that many in the Republic/Empire so readily accepted that the Jedi could attempt a coup is a sign to me of how ambivalent many people must have felt about the Jedi (it also didn't help that Dooku, an ex-Jedi, was leading the Separatists too).


If I were Mace, I would've done the same thing!  ;D
The Jedi's worst adversary is in charge of a galactic military, who started a war that spun out of control, inside the Capital of the Senate.  Sounds familiar?  It should.  :)
 
Mace made a unfortunate miscalculation; apparently, six Jedi just wasn't enough to contain Palpatine considering he was the only one standing after the ambush.



In later (now non-canon) books the Jedi also did participate in a coup of the Galactic Alliance.

And we have seen the Jedi run away, in both Revenge of the Sith, the original films, and now with the new round of films. We've also seen how the Jedi disconnect from the people they are supposed to be protecting. How they take babies away from their parents, how they are cloistered in their nice little tower, how they forgo attachment. And even the idea of accountability. The Jedi are accountable to very few, and that itself could lead to abuse of power. The films didn't show really show that (the novels and comics I think did more so, with the use of the Dark Jedi), but the potential was and is there.



However, the Jedi's other purpose in life is not just to assist others in time of need but to help young initiates understand and properly wield those special powers. This was seen in 'Attack Of The Clones' where Yoda is training a group of children in the same manner that Obiwan did with Luke in 'A New Hope' inside Lando's Millennium Falcon. 

As anyone can see, the Sith prey upon impressionable force users who were disenchanted by Jedi ideology making them excellent pawns ready to convert them over to the Dark side of the force. The Sith don't seem concerned about their physical fitness either as long as they can carry out their tasks.

If the Jedi were not present, this conflict would've started sooner.

A millennia of peace is not bad compared to a country such as America who has only enjoyed  15 years of actual peace time since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.  :(



Unfortunately that book series didn't stay true to that and turned Jacen into a cackling madman, but I thought the idea was very cool, a Sith that wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy.



Yeah, but... :-\


A cackling madman, a Sith who wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy is exactly who Palpatine was,

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy and we shall have peace."

Palpatine wasn't obsessed with his own power, rather he was using the Chancellor's powers that was given to him, to harm others and sow chaos in the galaxy.

Sounds familiar?  It should. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 15, 2017, 07:15:16 am

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 15, 2017, 07:44:10 am

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.

Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't

Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, and the stand-alone Dark Horse Comics arc Star Wars: Darth Maul—Son of Dathomir; which was based on unproduced scripts from The Clone Wars TV series.[1] Most material published after April 25—such as the Star Wars Rebels TV series along with all Marvel Star Wars comic books and novels beginning with A New Dawn—is also considered part of the new canon
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 15, 2017, 08:14:24 am

Dark Horse's Legends already probed that with Imperial Knights, who were neither Light or Dark.  But that is no longer canon.

But the cartoon Rebels introduced a Force user who was neither Jedi or Sith.


I've read in some circles (read: theforce dot net) that the official classification of the Extended Universe is now called Legends. 

The conflicts of interests in Star Wars universe occur when it's unclear what is canon and what is not.

Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't


Everything else before Disney came along is not canon, yes?  :-\


I ask this because having viewed 'Rogue One' for the first time this month, just noticed Gary Whitta & Jon Knoll's name on the story writing credits; Jon Knoll is one of the many software engineers of the image editing application, Adobe Photoshop and worked on 'Episode I'. Whitta was the Editor-in-Chief at PC Gamer in the mid-90s when a lot of the Star Wars video games were being produced by demand every year since then.  Whitta also wrote 'Book Of Eli', another movie inspired by a popular video game [Fallout]. (https://i.imgur.com/2YiUZfj.gif)

It's very clear that 'Rogue One' was inspired by the Dark Forces series as the characters are merely redressed; Jan Ors went from sidekick to Kyle Katarn to lead hero, Jyn Erso.
Kyle Katarn is really Cassian Andor, the Rebel spy and the villain droid, 8T-88 is now the re-programmed Imperial droid.

With that adjustment established, renders Dark Forces as something different but similar.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 15, 2017, 08:24:02 am


Disney actually made it very clear what is canon and what isn't

Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, and the stand-alone Dark Horse Comics arc Star Wars: Darth MaulóSon of Dathomir; which was based on unproduced scripts from The Clone Wars TV series.[1] Most material published after April 25ósuch as the Star Wars Rebels TV series along with all Marvel Star Wars comic books and novels beginning with A New Dawnóis also considered part of the new canon



Ah!  O.K.   I see... :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 15, 2017, 07:45:42 pm
^
The Star Wars films, and some of the additional material, are a bit more complicated than that. At a basic level the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but we've seen the Jedi go along with a corrupt Republic in the prequels, defend law instead of justice (as when Qui Gonn refuses to free both Shmi and Anakin in The Phantom Menace) and sign on to lead the Clone Army (after Mace earlier declares in Attack of the Clones 'we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers'). The Jedi seem to have no problems with the idea of cloning or cloning massive numbers of people to be used as soldiers (slaves) either. And when Anakin reveals the truth about Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, Mace leads a group of Jedi Masters to remove him from power and though Mace does say he will let the Senate decide Palpatine's fate, he has six lightsabers on the man and the threat of assassination is clear. So basically the Jedi did attempt a coup. And from what we've seen that many in the Republic/Empire so readily accepted that the Jedi could attempt a coup is a sign to me of how ambivalent many people must have felt about the Jedi (it also didn't help that Dooku, an ex-Jedi, was leading the Separatists too).


If I were Mace, I would've done the same thing!  ;D
The Jedi's worst adversary is in charge of a galactic military, who started a war that spun out of control, inside the Capital of the Senate.  Sounds familiar?  It should.  :)
 
Mace made a unfortunate miscalculation; apparently, six Jedi just wasn't enough to contain Palpatine considering he was the only one standing after the ambush.

As the audience we see that Palpatine is evil and that he's up to no good, and Mace is going off Anakin's word that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and behind it all. Anakin, who Mace never trusted, and pretty much admits to that when he thanks Anakin for telling him about Palpatine. So Mace and the other Jedi Masters are going off the word of a Jedi that Mace never trusted and felt was unduly influenced by Palpatine, which is a shaky reason to go off and attempt to force a democratically elected leader from his office. Palpatine did have a right to defend himself. Being a Sith as far as I know is not a crime. However the Jedi considered a follower of the Sith way (which could be considered a religion of sorts, just like the Jedi) was worthy of death simply for being. Mace could've called together a meeting of sympathetic Senators. Padme, Bail Organa, and others were pressing for Palpatine to end the war. Mace could've went through a more legalistic process which would've forced more examination of Palpatine and perhaps curtailed his movements while he was under investigation, but Mace went off half-cocked, and he played right into Palpatine's hands.


In later (now non-canon) books the Jedi also did participate in a coup of the Galactic Alliance.

And we have seen the Jedi run away, in both Revenge of the Sith, the original films, and now with the new round of films. We've also seen how the Jedi disconnect from the people they are supposed to be protecting. How they take babies away from their parents, how they are cloistered in their nice little tower, how they forgo attachment. And even the idea of accountability. The Jedi are accountable to very few, and that itself could lead to abuse of power. The films didn't show really show that (the novels and comics I think did more so, with the use of the Dark Jedi), but the potential was and is there.



However, the Jedi's other purpose in life is not just to assist others in time of need but to help young initiates understand and properly wield those special powers. This was seen in 'Attack Of The Clones' where Yoda is training a group of children in the same manner that Obiwan did with Luke in 'A New Hope' inside Lando's Millennium Falcon. 

As anyone can see, the Sith prey upon impressionable force users who were disenchanted by Jedi ideology making them excellent pawns ready to convert them over to the Dark side of the force. The Sith don't seem concerned about their physical fitness either as long as they can carry out their tasks.

If the Jedi were not present, this conflict would've started sooner.

A millennia of peace is not bad compared to a country such as America who has only enjoyed  15 years of actual peace time since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.  :(

I understand the Jedi goal of training these children, for their own benefit and for the safety of the overall galaxy, but that being said, they are still taking children away from their families, and demanding that they adhere to a life style devoid of deep emotional attachments, which is also hypocritical because we see strong emotional attachments from the Jedi throughout the prequels and in the original trilogy as well. Not every Sith is disenchanted with the Jedi way in terms of once being Jedi and turning against them. Maul and Palpatine were never Jedi. And it's arguable that Dooku's problem was merely disenchantment with the Jedi ideology. Dooku was also concerned about the corruption in the Republic, and/or he used that real issue to hide his true intentions behind.



Unfortunately that book series didn't stay true to that and turned Jacen into a cackling madman, but I thought the idea was very cool, a Sith that wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy.



Yeah, but... :-\


A cackling madman, a Sith who wasn't a megalomaniac, but a person who was using Sith principles in an attempt to bring order to the galaxy is exactly who Palpatine was,

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy and we shall have peace."

Palpatine wasn't obsessed with his own power, rather he was using the Chancellor's powers that was given to him, to harm others and sow chaos in the galaxy.

Sounds familiar?  It should. :)

The stuff that's now non-canon disputes the idea that Palpatine was in fact a megalomaniac obsessed with his own power and I think trying to find a way to rule forever. Part of Lumiya's goal was to find someone that had great power but wouldn't succumb to the lust for power that she felt Palpatine had. But since that's no longer canon, I don't know how the current canon views Palpatine's legacy. I also got the impression that in Lumiya's mind Jacen would be a Sith Lord who would use the Sith way to bring in peace not for his own personal benefit or aggrandizement, unlike Palpatine. Jacen was supposed to be a rejoinder to Palpatine, but the writers changed their minds or just didn't know how to pull it off.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 16, 2017, 02:44:29 am

As the audience we see that Palpatine is evil and that he's up to no good, and Mace is going off Anakin's word that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and behind it all. Anakin, who Mace never trusted, and pretty much admits to that when he thanks Anakin for telling him about Palpatine. So Mace and the other Jedi Masters are going off the word of a Jedi that Mace never trusted and felt was unduly influenced by Palpatine, which is a shaky reason to go off and attempt to force a democratically elected leader from his office. Palpatine did have a right to defend himself. Being a Sith as far as I know is not a crime. However the Jedi considered a follower of the Sith way (which could be considered a religion of sorts, just like the Jedi) was worthy of death simply for being. Mace could've called together a meeting of sympathetic Senators. Padme, Bail Organa, and others were pressing for Palpatine to end the war. Mace could've went through a more legalistic process which would've forced more examination of Palpatine and perhaps curtailed his movements while he was under investigation, but Mace went off half-cocked, and he played right into Palpatine's hands.


I don't agree that Mace Windu "...went off half-cocked and played right into Palpatine's hands", at all.
It was Anakin who was played right into Palpatine's hands.


The scenario you've just described is exactly why Mace & his Jedi unit had to move against Palpatine immediately; The 'mystery of the Sith' has finally been revealed.


It is reasonable to assume that the Jedi Council had already made the decision about how to proceed if and when they find this phantom menace, an invisible Sith that Qui-Gon & Obiwan reported back in 'Episode I'. The problem was the interference of Anakin who was faced with the choice Palpatine prompted him with:

A) "I'm the only who can save your pregnant, illegitimate wife from dying that you foresaw in your dreams"

--- or ---

B) Bring Palpatine to the Senate and face justice through a extremely lengthy (and corrupt!) criminal & impeachment process

--- or ---

C) Allow Mace to cut Palpatine down and save the entire galaxy from the 'dark times'


Anakin chose poorly on his multiple choice S.A.T.  :)





I understand the Jedi goal of training these children, for their own benefit and for the safety of the overall galaxy, but that being said, they are still taking children away from their families, and demanding that they adhere to a life style devoid of deep emotional attachments, which is also hypocritical because we see strong emotional attachments from the Jedi throughout the prequels and in the original trilogy as well. Not every Sith is disenchanted with the Jedi way in terms of once being Jedi and turning against them. Maul and Palpatine were never Jedi. And it's arguable that Dooku's problem was merely disenchantment with the Jedi ideology. Dooku was also concerned about the corruption in the Republic, and/or he used that real issue to hide his true intentions behind.


I don't agree that the Jedi would ever demand or take children away from families without the exchange being a mutual agreement and understanding of why special powers were bestowed upon them, and what their role for the rest of their lives should be.


Regarding Dooku's recruitment process, he was merely going through the motions of what Sith do; in order for them to survive, they must lie, murder and cheat.   Sounds familiar?    It should. :)





The stuff that's now non-canon disputes the idea that Palpatine was in fact a megalomaniac obsessed with his own power and I think trying to find a way to rule forever. Part of Lumiya's goal was to find someone that had great power but wouldn't succumb to the lust for power that she felt Palpatine had. But since that's no longer canon, I don't know how the current canon views Palpatine's legacy. I also got the impression that in Lumiya's mind Jacen would be a Sith Lord who would use the Sith way to bring in peace not for his own personal benefit or aggrandizement, unlike Palpatine. Jacen was supposed to be a rejoinder to Palpatine, but the writers changed their minds or just didn't know how to pull it off.



The Jedi have expressed disdain towards politicians or avoided political arenas which is where the Jedi went awry. This issue strongly suggests the underlying message that George was sending through his Star Wars universe.


I don't know anything about Lumiya, or Jacen but what I do know is that Palpatine was not a megalomaniac.   A Sith could not rule the galaxy just because he has the Force Lightning ability. Palpatine's only real power was knowledge & subterfuge.


All Palpatine did was maneuver himself into a position in the Senate to politically & legally turn the war machines of the Galactic Senate against his eternal enemies, the Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 16, 2017, 03:47:36 pm
Mace and Palpatine:
The Jedi had a made a choice about how to handle the Sith in Episode I, they were going to continue their long war against them and take them out whenever they appeared. What is not being said here is that Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they were upholding. So to go so outside that law, to take justice into your own hands is vigilantism and against the law, and in a sense is as much of a threat as the Separatists. The Separatists were an external threat but Mace was laying precedent for an internal one.

So, if Palpatine had been killed by the Jedi, who is to say that the next time the Jedi encounter a leader they disagree with that they murder them? Would Mace and the other Jedi stand trial for murdering Palpatine? Who holds them accountable? Is everyone just supposed to take Maceís word for it?

This is no longer canon but at one time it was: Jedi coup from Wookieepedia (Natasi Daala entry): Shortly afterward, the Jedi Council now under the leadership of acting Grand Master Saba Sebatyne, formulated a plan to launch a coup against Daala. The Council put their plan into action at the same time as Senator Treen and her allies launched their bid to remove the Chief of State.

The idea that Mace had to act Ďimmediatelyí makes little sense, outside of itís a two-hour movie and they have to push the plot along. We know there was a contingent of Senators that were pushing Palpatine to finish the war and to let go of emergency powers. Why didnít Mace talk to any of them? If anything, with General Grievous dead, it weakened Palpatine's rationale to continue the war and possibly could've made the similarly duped Separatists leaders open to negotiating a peace deal. Why not allow the democratic process to work? If one says that process is broken, corrupt, and stronger measures are needed, well, isnít Dooku making a similar kind of argument? The system was likely imperfect but that was the system in place, the system the Jedi up to that point had allowed to fester or limp along. And it was the system the Jedi were leading millions to their deaths in defending.

Mace played right into Palpatineís hands and his rash actions gave credence to Palpatineís claim that the Jedi were trying to take over because they had just tried to assassinate him. Palpatine manipulated the entire Jedi Order for the most part.

Jedi younglings:
So what kind of mutual agreement do you think the Jedi could come up with that would be satisfactory to you if it was your children? This is something that Lucas glossed over, but the potential was there to explore this further. We saw what Anakin being taken from his mother-by his choice (but this is like a little kid who is making that decision and a desperate mother who wants a better life for him no matter what), did to him, how it set in motion his dark path. And even the Jedi said he was too old to be trained. In essence, he had too many memories of his past, of his mother, so that the Jedi wouldnít be all that he ever knew or could relate too. Now when I think of that, thatís similar to the First Orderís Stormtroopers. Albeit, they are likely much more callous in gaining recruits, but they are taking children very young and training them in their ways regardless.

Jedi and Politics:
The Jedi voiced disdain for politics did not stop them from playing politics at times. Nor did it stop them from defending the Republic some might have criticized. Iím skeptical that Lucas intended for the Jedi to be more involved with politics. I could see him feeling the Jedi needed to be more in tune with life itself, not so rigid with their rules and regulations, and to allow more humanity, to learn how to balance attachments and their desire to serve the Force and the galaxy. But perhaps there is also a criticism of the Republicís representatives and citizens who mostly allowed Palpatine to manipulate them all into tyranny.

Palpatineís megalomania:
I take this from Wookieepediaís non-canon section on Palpatine:

His acts as a loving politician and later a helpless victim served only to bolster his true persona, that of Sidious. The Dark Lord was a highly manipulative, Machiavellian, exploitative and seductive megalomaniac, easily bending others to his will in his quest for Sith supremacy and ultimate power.[15][165] A narcissist, Sidious identified his own essence with the very blackness of space,[178] even going so far as to declare himself the ultimate personification of the dark side.[165] Sidious also displayed traits of psychopathy, including extreme sadism and cruelty, taking considerable pleasure in the suffering and deaths of others.

This passage is how Lumiya viewed him:

Though she was once fiercely loyal to Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, Lumiya developed a strong sense of disdain for Palpatine and viewed Vader with pity. Regarding Palpatine, she informed her future apprentice, Jacen Solo, that Palpatine/Darth Sidious was "a psychopath consumed with power," and that Vader had been "a sad man....whose one anchor to the world of the living was, yes, a galaxy-conquering madman."

Those are not in the canon sections, but at least in the past, someone was describing Palpatine as a megalomaniac.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 07:39:49 am


Mace and Palpatine:
The Jedi had a made a choice about how to handle the Sith in Episode I, they were going to continue their long war against them and take them out whenever they appeared. What is not being said here is that Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they were upholding. So to go so outside that law, to take justice into your own hands is vigilantism and against the law, and in a sense is as much of a threat as the Separatists. The Separatists were an external threat but Mace was laying precedent for an internal one.

So, if Palpatine had been killed by the Jedi, who is to say that the next time the Jedi encounter a leader they disagree with that they murder them? Would Mace and the other Jedi stand trial for murdering Palpatine? Who holds them accountable? Is everyone just supposed to take Maceís word for it?


The idea that Mace had to act Ďimmediatelyí makes little sense, outside of itís a two-hour movie and they have to push the plot along. We know there was a contingent of Senators that were pushing Palpatine to finish the war and to let go of emergency powers. Why didnít Mace talk to any of them? If anything, with General Grievous dead, it weakened Palpatine's rationale to continue the war and possibly could've made the similarly duped Separatists leaders open to negotiating a peace deal. Why not allow the democratic process to work? If one says that process is broken, corrupt, and stronger measures are needed, well, isnít Dooku making a similar kind of argument? The system was likely imperfect but that was the system in place, the system the Jedi up to that point had allowed to fester or limp along. And it was the system the Jedi were leading millions to their deaths in defending.


Mace played right into Palpatineís hands and his rash actions gave credence to Palpatineís claim that the Jedi were trying to take over because they had just tried to assassinate him. Palpatine manipulated the entire Jedi Order for the most part.



How do you think the scenario would've played out if Palpatine had complied peacefully with Mace's arrest?






Jedi younglings:
So what kind of mutual agreement do you think the Jedi could come up with that would be satisfactory to you if it was your children? This is something that Lucas glossed over, but the potential was there to explore this further. We saw what Anakin being taken from his mother-by his choice (but this is like a little kid who is making that decision and a desperate mother who wants a better life for him no matter what), did to him, how it set in motion his dark path. And even the Jedi said he was too old to be trained. In essence, he had too many memories of his past, of his mother, so that the Jedi wouldnít be all that he ever knew or could relate too. Now when I think of that, thatís similar to the First Orderís Stormtroopers. Albeit, they are likely much more callous in gaining recruits, but they are taking children very young and training them in their ways regardless.


There are unique individuals in our real-world with Extra Sensory Perceptive abilities that are indoctrinated by special learning institutions all around the globe and usually taken in while they're very, very young.


George is not the only writer to reference this process; Stan Lee & Jack Kirby reference the same phenomena in X-Men.





Jedi and Politics:
The Jedi voiced disdain for politics did not stop them from playing politics at times. Nor did it stop them from defending the Republic some might have criticized. Iím skeptical that Lucas intended for the Jedi to be more involved with politics. I could see him feeling the Jedi needed to be more in tune with life itself, not so rigid with their rules and regulations, and to allow more humanity, to learn how to balance attachments and their desire to serve the Force and the galaxy. But perhaps there is also a criticism of the Republicís representatives and citizens who mostly allowed Palpatine to manipulate them all into tyranny.



Try not forget how this whole conflict was set off:

Chancellor Valorium sends two Jedi Knights, much to the chagrin of the Jedi Council, to settle the matter between the Naboo & the Trade Federation.

It's clearly established that this beef is the handy work of Palpatine also known as Darth Sidious.


Granted, Chancellor Valorium is the democratically elected leader of the Republic, a government the Jedi had sworn to protect and its laws they are upholding, as you've written...


How do you think that scenario would've played out if Qui-Gon & Obiwan were allowed to meet with the Viceroy?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 08:38:28 am
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 17, 2017, 08:48:30 am
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 09:36:40 am
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.




This is a good point.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 10:09:01 am
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.



However, you quoted Mace, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."  earlier in this thread.

Mace's comment doesn't imply that the Jedi are galactic policemen/policewomen, or enforcers of the Republic.  Mace's comment strongly suggests that the Jedi's role in the escalating conflict as interventionists. 

Chancellor Valorium sending the Jedi as ambassadors to intervene between the Naboo & the Trade federation was more of an attempt at diplomacy, not enforcement.

Apparently, the corruption inside the Senate was so out of control that Chancellor Valorium seeking an alternative solution was needed.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 10:49:14 am
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 11:14:20 am
If Mace had taken Palpatine into custody Anakin likely wouldn't have turned to the dark side at that moment, thereby averting or postponing his turn to Darth Vader. And if Palpatine had gone through a court trial it is possible that it would he would be temporarily removed from power for one, open the door to a more transparent examination of how he was running the war, and potentially could've exposed him as Darth Sidious, the true mastermind behind the war. Because with the Jedi making the claim they've got to supply the proof. A court trail, even if Palpatine owns the courts, makes it harder for him to initiate Order 66 because there would be more scrutiny on him and he wouldn't have a Jedi assassination attempt as the excuse or rationale. With Palpatine also entangled in a court trial, that might have opened the door for Padme and the Loyalist Committee to press for peace with the Separatists.

I haven't forgotten how the conflict was instigated by Sidious. It is telling that Valorum used the Jedi as blunt instruments, an implied threat to force the Trade Federation to back off Naboo. Even in Episode I, the Jedi were being used as enforcers for the Republic. So despite some protestations the Jedi were generally on board with the Senate, despite how corrupt it might have been or was accused of being, for most of the prequels.



However, you quoted Mace, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."  earlier in this thread.

Mace's comment doesn't imply that the Jedi are galactic policemen/policewomen, or enforcers of the Republic.  Mace's comment strongly suggests that the Jedi's role in the escalating conflict as interventionists. 

Chancellor Valorium sending the Jedi as ambassadors to intervene between the Naboo & the Trade federation was more of an attempt at diplomacy, not enforcement.

Apparently, the corruption inside the Senate was so out of control that Chancellor Valorium seeking an alternative solution was needed.

It seems like you are seeking some contradiction in my position where there is none. The use of force can be part of interventionism. I mean, there is the term military intervention. And peace keeping often does include soldiers.

military intervention
The deliberate act of a nation or a group of nations to introduce its military forces into the course of an existing controversy.


Peacekeeper
noun
1.
a person who maintains or restores peace and amity; mediator:
Mother was the peacekeeper in our family.
2.
a soldier, military force, etc., deployed to maintain or restore peace:
American marines sent abroad as peacekeepers.


Taken from Wookieepedia's canon section on the Jedi Order:

The Jedi Order was an ancient, monastic peacekeeping organization united in their observance of the Force, specifically the light side.

Thereafter, the Jedi served, strictly, as peacekeepers by maintaining law and order during a thousand years of peace under the rule of the Galactic Senate.

As keepers of the peace, the Jedi Order undertook diplomatic missions on behalf of the Galactic Senate, and pursued interplanetary criminals across the galaxy.


Also, when you click on the word peacekeeping in that description of the Jedi it leads you to the page on law enforcement:

The Jedi Order had policing authority under the Galactic Republic and could conduct criminal investigations and make arrests.[8] Some even became experienced in local criminal and policing matters.[9] However, the Jedi served the Republic as a whole as keepers of the peace and guardians of justice.[10]



These various descriptions seem pretty clear that the Jedi did serve in part as galactic policemen.

The Mace quote came after the Naboo blockade, which could either be a result of seeing how the use of the Jedi didn't work there or though I personally think it was Lucas making Mace deluded and clueless to Dooku's real intentions and also another sign of how out of touch the Jedi had become (which is evidenced later on when Mace and Yoda are discussing whether to tell the Senate that they are become less in tune with the Force). I also have to wonder if the Mace quote was put in there to muddy the position of Dooku, which wasn't a bad idea, to make his true motives ambiguous, but Lucas couldn't restrain himself from having Dooku being a Sith Lord. Further, Mace accepts the creation of the Clone Army and in the Jedi leading it, which very much makes them soldiers.

As for Valorum's actions, check how panicked the Trade Federation were at the arrival of the Jedi. They were scared of them. Would they have been as scared of a Republic Senator? At that point, the Republic had no army to enforce their laws so the Jedi were the biggest stick that Valorum had. Valorum sent the Jedi because he knew the Trade Federation would likely back down and Sidious either suspected that the Trade Federation would also punk out and also that the Jedi might sense what was really happening so he ordered them to kill the Jedi.

I think you are attempting to posit that the Senate was so corrupt that Mace had no recourse but to assassinate Palpatine and while the corruption of the Senate was mentioned in throughout the prequels, there is no strong evidence to suggest that all of its institutions had atrophied so much that Palpatine could do completely what he wanted openly. The Emperor even maintained an Imperial Senate until Episode IV when Palpatine did feel completely unstoppable to get rid of them, but until that time, he maintained the illusion of a kind of an Empire that had some democratic aspects.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 17, 2017, 11:22:07 am
Considering that the Sith can control minds, one can question whether Palpatine was legally elected.  He was a strategist and devil with a silver tongue, but one cannot ignore that he mentally force pushed people into voting for him.  (Plus the same risk holds true if certain individuals were responsible for his trial.)

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.

I didn't mean to imply that he controlled them all via the force, but that he might have pushed certain people in certain positions to vote his way. I see Palpatine as using all means at his disposal to get his way from bribery to blackmail to silver tongue persuasion to out and out use of the force.  All of these things negate democratic process, and the means for him to subvert justice.

Also remember Yoda said that the Sith we're using the Dark side to cloud their perceptions. So they may not have been able to sense Palpatine's manipulations.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 11:27:16 am
While we have seen Kylo Ren, who is not a Sith, seek and fail to compel Rey using mental powers, what we've seen pretty much from Palpatine is his great ability to read, trick, and manipulate people. There might be some Force use involved, but I would suspect his use of the Force would've been detected by Anakin or any of the Jedi who he was also manipulating while as Chancellor or they were in his presence while he was Chancellor and the Jedi detected nothing. The non-canon stuff had the Jedi suspecting that someone around Palpatine was the Sith Lord and not him.

Only the Jedi have been shown to use Force mental powers to any success and those were limited and worked only on the weak minds. Saying that Palpatine compelled pretty much the whole Senate and Republic to follow him diminishes him as a great villain and it also lets everyone else off the hook for their role in allowing the Republic to become the Empire. I think Palpatine played on people's fears, their desires, their weaknesses, he could see inside people and he knew how to manipulate those inner weaknesses or desires to get what he wanted. We saw in The Phantom Menace how he manipulated Padme into offering a vote of no confidence and there was no hint of Force persuasion there. We also saw how Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar Binks and there was no hint of Force persuasion there either. He knew what they wanted and he simply gave them an avenue to achieve it, which also gave Palpatine what he wanted. And by the time of the Empire, both Palpatine and Vader used more brute force, not Force spells, to keep people in line.



Palpatine is never shown to use any Force mental abilities in the Star Wars films. Because of what's happening in our own real-world politics where democratic elections are rigged, Kip's comment jumped out at me.   :)

It's very rare that Sith are ever seen using Force mental abilities, but when they do, it's very apparent.


Check out this scene from Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight where Jerec is using Force mental abilities to aggressively extract information from Ron's mind (a Jedi) to find the hidden location of the Valley of the Jedi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lah4fUDlp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lah4fUDlp0)

When Jerec finally exclaims,

"Morgan Katarn!!!"

The audience is clued in that Jerec was successful in his psychic battle with Ron.

We (as the audience) never see Palpatine do anything like this in any of the Star Wars films so you do have a point.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 17, 2017, 12:22:25 pm
Doesn't Palpatine have some ability to see into the future?

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 12:40:04 pm
Doesn't Palpatine have some ability to see into the future?


Another good question!  :)


Answer:  I don't know!  ;D

There's no evidence suggesting such a thing.


It was confusing enough that there were two layers of Star Wars canon:

George Lucas canon and Extended Universe canon.


Now there's Disney canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 01:24:08 pm
The non-canon and canon descriptions of Palpatine's abilities on Wookieepedia says that he can foresee the future.

The non-canon abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[3]

The non-canon description also says that Palpatine does have a hypnotic lull/force persuasion ability.

It was mentioned by Luke Skywalker that the Emperor's very voice had a hypnotic lull to it whenever he was outwardly projecting his dark side Force powers.

Furthermore, Sidious was a master of Force stealth, able to hide his dark nature from the Jedi Order for many years before allowing himself to be discovered. Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that he was able to cloud the Jedi's vision, making it exceedingly difficult to predict future events.[15] This allowed him to bide his time and plot his rise to power while the Jedi were unable to sense him.[196] Overall, his powers of control and persuasion had been drawn from the very blackest depths of the dark side of the Force.[177][196]

Checking the canon abilities, he also retains similar abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[5] The Dark Lord also possessed knowledge of Sith magic, allowing him to utter incantations in the Balc speech, as well as knowledge of the ancient Sith tongue.[63][55] The Dark Lord was also adept in the use of Force Persuade, to the extent that he was able to take complete control of a subject's mind and force them to obey his commands.[63] He was also capable of telepathically communicating with Darth Vader over a distance of hundreds of light-years. It appeared however as though this ability may have been limited to sending and receiving relatively simple messages such as Vader requesting that a starfighter be shipped to him, as the two Sith Lords communicated through holoprojections whilst discussing more complex matters.[3] Palpatine also had a remarkably keen ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of others, including those of incredibly powerful Force adepts such as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.[63][5]. On a related note, he was also capable of hiding his own thoughts and feelings from even such individuals as Yoda, and managed to conceal his true dark nature from the entire Jedi Council for decades before deliberately revealing himself.[99]
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 01:48:40 pm
The non-canon and canon descriptions of Palpatine's abilities on Wookieepedia says that he can foresee the future.

The non-canon abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[3]

The non-canon description also says that Palpatine does have a hypnotic lull/force persuasion ability.

It was mentioned by Luke Skywalker that the Emperor's very voice had a hypnotic lull to it whenever he was outwardly projecting his dark side Force powers.

Furthermore, Sidious was a master of Force stealth, able to hide his dark nature from the Jedi Order for many years before allowing himself to be discovered. Sidious was so powerful in the dark side that he was able to cloud the Jedi's vision, making it exceedingly difficult to predict future events.[15] This allowed him to bide his time and plot his rise to power while the Jedi were unable to sense him.[196] Overall, his powers of control and persuasion had been drawn from the very blackest depths of the dark side of the Force.[177][196]

Checking the canon abilities, he also retains similar abilities:

Darth Sidious was highly adept at foreseeing the future, often utilizing the power to see his plots to fruition, ensuring that all would proceed as he had envisioned.[5] The Dark Lord also possessed knowledge of Sith magic, allowing him to utter incantations in the Balc speech, as well as knowledge of the ancient Sith tongue.[63][55] The Dark Lord was also adept in the use of Force Persuade, to the extent that he was able to take complete control of a subject's mind and force them to obey his commands.[63] He was also capable of telepathically communicating with Darth Vader over a distance of hundreds of light-years. It appeared however as though this ability may have been limited to sending and receiving relatively simple messages such as Vader requesting that a starfighter be shipped to him, as the two Sith Lords communicated through holoprojections whilst discussing more complex matters.[3] Palpatine also had a remarkably keen ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of others, including those of incredibly powerful Force adepts such as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.[63][5]. On a related note, he was also capable of hiding his own thoughts and feelings from even such individuals as Yoda, and managed to conceal his true dark nature from the entire Jedi Council for decades before deliberately revealing himself.[99]



There is a point to this:

Whenever Chancellor Palpatine would be alone with someone of interest, like say, Anakin...
The tone of his voice would change dramatically,

"...the eyes and the ears of the Republic..."

When Palpatine started to physically transform into the Emperor, his voice got deeper & deeper, and creepier.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 17, 2017, 02:14:53 pm
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 03:24:31 pm
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance




Right,  exactly.

Whoever is left standing gets to testify & their version of events is believed.

It's sort of like when hearing about a lousy, corrupt police officer murders an innocent, unarmed citizen and the bullsh*t cop lies to the public, his superiors & the victim's family that he thought his life was in danger.  ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 04:14:03 pm
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance


What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic? Mace isn't even the leader of the Jedi Council. He's essentially a powerful general who is arresting the democratically elected head of the government. Furthermore, if his intentions were completely benign, why come in with several other Jedi masters? Why draw your lightsabers first? Like Han shot first, Mace pulled first. Mace has dubious authority to arrest and drawing his lightsaber was clearly an aggressive move, an implied threat of violence if the chancellor did not accede to his demand. Palpatine could make a strong case that he was defending himself. Palpatine was not wrong that it as treason and even that there was a Jedi plot against him. Of course there's more to the story, but that is also based on we the audience knowing something about the behind-the-scenes stuff that the average person in the Republic would not know.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3DHDXAzoBA#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 04:42:17 pm
Regarding canon there has long been different degrees of canon. It got to the point where some defined it using letters. Canon was a messy business even before Disney took over.

But as it stands now, there is just one canon. The Lucas canon stuff is merged with the Disney canon. All the side stuff from the Lucas era is now "Legends".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 17, 2017, 04:50:02 pm
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance

What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic?

We would hafta see that republic constitution i suppose lol

You could think of it as the jedi being a separate branch of govt. A suprene court vs executuve.

They seem to operate rather autonomously throughout the movies

But if we go down this thread tho

A much more interesting movie may have been IF palpatine went in quietly... and he was aquited... the republic sided with him and not the jedi

And then the jedi were wiped out due to being seen as dangerous outlaws against the Republic
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 17, 2017, 04:52:03 pm

But I think you are going to a level of analysis of the situation that the author didn't go to.  He was keeping it very basic and simple...Sith evil, Jedi good.

Yeah.. love

Just fan fun discussion

Lucas pretty much just went "red light saber bad" lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 05:07:29 pm
Re: mace coming to kill sheev

If i am rememberibg correctly, he came with multiple jedi and went to arrest him actually.

Palpatine then gave his "i am the senate" pulled his light saber, did a 1080 spin and immediately murdered everyone but mace.

I think at that point, mace was fully in the right to kill Palpatine as soon as he had the chance

What authority does Mace have to arrest the leader of the Republic?

We would hafta see that republic constitution i suppose lol

You could think of it as the jedi being a separate branch of govt. A suprene court vs executuve.

They seem to operate rather autonomously throughout the movies

But if we go down this thread tho

A much more interesting movie may have been IF palpatine went in quietly... and he was aquited... the republic sided with him and not the jedi

And then the jedi were wiped out due to being seen as dangerous outlaws against the Republic

I haven't read enough of the books to see if the exact role and powers of the Jedi within the Republic were ever fleshed out. We don't see that in the movies. We know they are extremely powerful. Have a nice tower. Help enforce laws and mediate peace in the Republic. They also support the Republic and are hesitant (at least Qui Gonn) to operate outside of Republic jurisdiction.

I think that scenario you suggested would've been pretty neat. A twist no one would suspect. I've long thought that Lucas should've not made Dooku a Sith. Even though I did think he made for a pretty dapper Sith Lord and I liked his Sith name and his curved lightsaber. But I was intrigued by the idea that Dooku was actually right and that he was leading a rebellion against a Sith-controlled government, and that perhaps the Jedi eventually realize he is right but by that point its too late.

I also felt it made little sense for Padme to be against the creation of a Republic army outside of Lucas wanted her to be a generic liberal. If there had been a Republic army in Phantom Menace it is very doubtful the Trade Federation would've invaded Naboo. They did it because they knew they could get away with it. Heck, the Republic could send no support and the Jedi Council only sent two members. I wish that Padme had been in favor of the creation of the army, which would've explained more easily why the separatist would want to kill her, and then later on for her to realize too that her desire to save her planet and other planets just doomed all of them to the Empire.

It would've been a darker ending to the prequels but I think the prequels needed to be even darker.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 05:31:11 pm

It would've been a darker ending to the prequels but I think the prequels needed to be even darker.


Back in th' day, I've read in some interviews that Lucas wanted the prequels (particularly 'Episode I') to look like a golden age, with sunny afternoon lighting, beautiful sunsets and evenings.  For the most part, that effect was achieved.  He also wanted every other episode  after that to appear darker and darker, so that the fall of the Jedi Order would reflect that until the last light in the distant city skyline switched off like a light switch.*


What were your first impressions of Star Wars: Episode I, The Phantom Menace when you first saw it in the theaters?

Be honest! :)





*O.K. I got that imagery from 'Boomerang' but you get the picture!  ;) 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 17, 2017, 05:48:24 pm
Only thing cool about EP1 was Maul, Qui Gon, and Obi.

Mostly Maul

Tge rest was garbage

Starting anakin as a child was a mistake
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 06:04:44 pm

It would've been a darker ending to the prequels but I think the prequels needed to be even darker.


Back in th' day, I've read in some interviews that Lucas wanted the prequels (particularly 'Episode I') to look like a golden age, with sunny afternoon lighting, beautiful sunsets and evenings.  For the most part, that effect was achieved.  He also wanted every other episode  after that to appear darker and darker, so that the fall of the Jedi Order would reflect that until the last light in the distant city skyline switched off like a light switch.*


What were your first impressions of Star Wars: Episode I, The Phantom Menace when you first saw it in the theaters?

Be honest! :)





*O.K. I got that imagery from 'Boomerang' but you get the picture!  ;)

With what you described of Lucas's plan for the prequels I think he succeeded in making each one darker, but the execution needed work overall. As for Episode I, I was hype going into it. And I was enjoying it until Jar Jar Binks showed up. And it went downhill from there. I endured the rest of it until Darth Maul showed up and got excited all over again. "The Duel of the Fates" was awesome but then Maul is taken out (assumed killed at the time) and that left me very disappointed. I did enjoy the few Palpatine scenes and I got a chill when Palpatine first met Anakin and patted him on the shoulder.

In comparison to the other prequel films, which I liked much much better, I do think prefer the look and feel of Episode I. I don't know if Lucas used any practical effects for Episode I but that universe felt more lived in than the video gamey other prequels. But the story and characters in Episode I needed a lot of work. I consider Episode I largely a waste of time, which forced Lucas to rush too much stuff through in the other prequel films.

I went and saw The Mummy afterward and it had everything Episode I lacked. It had a good villain that actually was in the film. It had engaging characters, humor, romance, and adventure.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 17, 2017, 06:08:02 pm
Only thing cool about EP1 was Maul, Qui Gon, and Obi.

Mostly Maul

Tge rest was garbage

Starting anakin as a child was a mistake

I agree with you about Anakin. I'm one of the few people who liked Hayden Christensen actually and I wish the film had either started with him, or just cast an older person from jump. Someone like Rick Schroeder. I would've preferred an older Anakin and also an older Obi-Wan (though I really grew to appreciate Ewan McGregor's performance).

The prequels had a serious story to tell, of how good people and a democratic society falls, and should've had the same tone as the LOTR movies IMO. Where some kids can get it, but it's not necessarily kid friendly. And there are no blatantly silly or kid bait characters like Jar Jar Binks. Personally I don't think the original trilogy pandered to kids all that much, but as a kid I got it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 17, 2017, 07:43:41 pm
Interesting...

Visually, 'Episode I' was spectacular.  Saw the movie three times in the theater.

I was hanging on to every word of that opening crawl and every piece of dialogue spoken by every character.

There were a lot of "Wow!" moments like:

The establishing shot of the Naboo palace with the waterfall and landscape.

I wasn't bothered by Jar Jar as everyone else was; his antics reminded me of the Looney Tunes characters from Warner Bros. much like the pod racers on Tatooine and I love animation so wasn't bothered by that.  I actually laughed out loud at the scene where Jar Jar gets shocked between the pod's electric stream and when he tongue slurped the food on Shmi's dinnertable (the first time not when Qui-Gon caught his tongue) and goes, "S'cuse me."  ;D
Blowing up one of the Trade Federation's tanks by accident with one of the blue energy balls rolling down the hill.
Surrendering to the enemy very quickly, "My give up!  My give up!"  ;D
There were many more scenes with him but those are the scenes that immediately come to mind.

Of course, the pod race.

The arrival to Coruscant.

I was surprised how abrupt the movie ended when Anakin destroyed the droid controller, kinda reminded me how friends described how 'The Empire Strikes Back' ended.

I believe the soundtrack to 'Episode I' was the best stuff John Williams has ever put out there next to the original trilogy.


I had no idea there was a negative reaction by the general public until a week after release.  Everyone I personally knew love it but people I didn't  know didn't care for it.  At the time, when I was reading comments on the force dot net, there was a huge, online debate for years from old fans, and new fans arguing back and forth relentlessly.

Ridiculous.



I look at these new Star Wars movies and go, "Is this what the fans really wanted???"

"Really?"   ???
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 18, 2017, 05:02:35 am
Only thing cool about EP1 was Maul, Qui Gon, and Obi.

Mostly Maul

Tge rest was garbage

Starting anakin as a child was a mistake

I agree with you about Anakin. I'm one of the few people who liked Hayden Christensen actually and I wish the film had either started with him, or just cast an older person from jump. Someone like Rick Schroeder. I would've preferred an older Anakin and also an older Obi-Wan (though I really grew to appreciate Ewan McGregor's performance).

The prequels had a serious story to tell, of how good people and a democratic society falls, and should've had the same tone as the LOTR movies IMO. Where some kids can get it, but it's not necessarily kid friendly. And there are no blatantly silly or kid bait characters like Jar Jar Binks. Personally I don't think the original trilogy pandered to kids all that much, but as a kid I got it.

Ewan was overall the best thing to come out of the prequels

He was also the best part of the Clone Wars animated show. REALLY loved him there because they added layers upon layers with the Sabine stuff. The Sabine stuff was almost a reversal of Anakin and Padme... i wish it could have been mentioned in the movies since it was and still is cannon.


I really think, overall, the prequel trilogy failed because it focused on too much of the wrong sh*t IMO.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 18, 2017, 05:05:33 am
Interesting...

Visually, 'Episode I' was spectacular.  Saw the movie three times in the theater.

I was hanging on to every word of that opening crawl and every piece of dialogue spoken by every character.

There were a lot of "Wow!" moments like:

The establishing shot of the Naboo palace with the waterfall and landscape.

I wasn't bothered by Jar Jar as everyone else was; his antics reminded me of the Looney Tunes characters from Warner Bros. much like the pod racers on Tatooine and I love animation so wasn't bothered by that.  I actually laughed out loud at the scene where Jar Jar gets shocked between the pod's electric stream and when he tongue slurped the food on Shmi's dinnertable (the first time not when Qui-Gon caught his tongue) and goes, "S'cuse me."  ;D
Blowing up one of the Trade Federation's tanks by accident with one of the blue energy balls rolling down the hill.
Surrendering to the enemy very quickly, "My give up!  My give up!"  ;D
There were many more scenes with him but those are the scenes that immediately come to mind.

Of course, the pod race.

The arrival to Coruscant.

I was surprised how abrupt the movie ended when Anakin destroyed the droid controller, kinda reminded me how friends described how 'The Empire Strikes Back' ended.

I believe the soundtrack to 'Episode I' was the best stuff John Williams has ever put out there next to the original trilogy.


I had no idea there was a negative reaction by the general public until a week after release.  Everyone I personally knew love it but people I didn't  know didn't care for it.  At the time, when I was reading comments on the force dot net, there was a huge, online debate for years from old fans, and new fans arguing back and forth relentlessly.

Ridiculous.



I look at these new Star Wars movies and go, "Is this what the fans really wanted???"

"Really?"   ???

People were so excited just ot have star wars back

Plus... the prequels basically needed to show 3 things

1. How did Darth Vader, one of the coolest people in all of movies, come to be?

2. What happened to all the Jedi?

3. How did Palpatine/The Empire come to power?


All those things sound really really really exciting on paper so people were f*cking amped.

Unforunately, overall, the prequels outright failed #1 and #2. I think Palpatine using politics to take power throughout the 3 movies was actually kinda well done and unexpected. You would think the most powerful sith lord ever would simply take over by brute force. But that's what makes Palpatine Palpatine and not Vader or Maul.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 18, 2017, 08:46:35 am

People were so excited just ot have star wars back

Plus... the prequels basically needed to show 3 things

1. How did Darth Vader, one of the coolest people in all of movies, come to be?

2. What happened to all the Jedi?

3. How did Palpatine/The Empire come to power?


All those things sound really really really exciting on paper so people were f*cking amped.

Unforunately, overall, the prequels outright failed #1 and #2. I think Palpatine using politics to take power throughout the 3 movies was actually kinda well done and unexpected. You would think the most powerful sith lord ever would simply take over by brute force. But that's what makes Palpatine Palpatine and not Vader or Maul.




How do you feel about the new Star Wars movies like 'The Force Awakens' and 'Rogue One'  as well as the next two on the way?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 18, 2017, 09:12:17 am

People were so excited just ot have star wars back

Plus... the prequels basically needed to show 3 things

1. How did Darth Vader, one of the coolest people in all of movies, come to be?

2. What happened to all the Jedi?

3. How did Palpatine/The Empire come to power?


All those things sound really really really exciting on paper so people were f*cking amped.

Unforunately, overall, the prequels outright failed #1 and #2. I think Palpatine using politics to take power throughout the 3 movies was actually kinda well done and unexpected. You would think the most powerful sith lord ever would simply take over by brute force. But that's what makes Palpatine Palpatine and not Vader or Maul.




How do you feel about the new Star Wars movies like 'The Force Awakens' and 'Rogue One'  as well as the next two on the way?

Rogue One was bold and took balls. It was, however, kinda boring until the climatic battle andi had problems with the heroine on screen vs what was advertised. I liked that it was a 'different' star was movie though and it had a lot of potential... could have been better. solid-ish though

There was nothing fundamentally bad about TFW i guess. It was just such a rehash of the OT... kind of sick of the "jedi in exile bc we failed" sh*t... i wanted to see Luke's Jedi academy.

I also think all the mystery behind everything (who is snoke, what are the knights of ren, who are reys parents and why is she good at everything, why did luke leave) to be a gigantic f*cking cop out and ridiculous. It only exists to keep people talking in between movies.

and finn being a bitch
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 18, 2017, 10:49:31 am
Rogue One was bold and took balls. It was, however, kinda boring until the climatic battle andi had problems with the heroine on screen vs what was advertised. I liked that it was a 'different' star was movie though and it had a lot of potential... could have been better. solid-ish though


I felt that the live cutscenes from the video game, the Dark Forces series, this movie adapted ideas from was far more exciting.
 
It felt as if I was watching a British version of a Star Wars movie, even though the only well known American actor cast was Forest Whitaker, who knocked it out the park, by the way...

Oh, and Jimmy Smits! :)

..and what was the point of a CG performance of Darth Vader? ??? ?
I can understand Tarkin considering he's a computer generated reincarnation made flesh or even Princess Leia but an actor (anyone actually) costumed  with the cape, outfit and helmet could've easily played Vader without any of the pre/post-production costs and/or hassles behind the computer.









There was nothing fundamentally bad about TFW i guess. It was just such a rehash of the OT... kind of sick of the "jedi in exile bc we failed" sh*t... i wanted to see Luke's Jedi academy.

I also think all the mystery behind everything (who is snoke, what are the knights of ren, who are reys parents and why is she good at everything, why did luke leave) to be a gigantic f*cking cop out and ridiculous. It only exists to keep people talking in between movies.

and finn being a bitch


Y'know how one can tell when a movie isn't very good...?

--- when you hardly remember anything from it.

That's why when you commented that Finn getting beat up by a stormtrooper in 'The Force Awakens' earlier in this thread, I wasn't being rude... I honestly don't remember the scene 'cause I was tryin' to follow the storyline.


What's interesting is that when George Lucas worked on the Star Wars movies, I was willing to walk into the theaters with no expectations, or anything... and be pleasantly surprised.  :)


These new Star Wars movies...?
I wouldn't even walk into the theaters to see them.  Why?  Because the George Lucas Quality Seal of Approvalô just isn't there.


NOW, I understand why George shoots Star Wars the way he did.  ;D
'The shoe is on the other foot now', as the idiom goes...   it's the fans who wanted to be George Lucas' turn to catch the heat for screwing up Star Wars!  ;D ;D ;D




Anyway...

Last night, was checking out some of the winners, nominees and participants of the 69th annual Emmy Awards and noticed that one of the bruthas winning multiple awards was Donald Glover earning one particularly for Outstanding Lead Actor - Comedy Series from the show, Atlanta.

(https://i.imgur.com/nOv6TLH.jpg)

If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I am), this is the brutha who is cast as young, Lando Calrissian in a up-coming Star Wars movie.

Listening to Mr. Glover make his acceptance speech, yeah... I can picture him playin' the charismatic gambler.  This is Lando.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on September 20, 2017, 02:15:57 am
http://www.yahoo.com/news/j-j-abrams-deliver-unique-233231601.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/j-j-abrams-deliver-unique-233231601.html)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 20, 2017, 06:17:36 am
[url]http://www.yahoo.com/news/j-j-abrams-deliver-unique-233231601.html[/url] ([url]http://www.yahoo.com/news/j-j-abrams-deliver-unique-233231601.html[/url])



From the article:

Quote
  The petition doesn't offer up any alternative directors, though some critics suggested Ava Duvernay (A Wrinkle in Time) and Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman) before Abrams was announced. 




A woman movie director to guide scenes in Star Wars?

That would be a first!  :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 20, 2017, 06:53:22 am
I'll never get the ridiculous praise of Patty Jenkins with WW

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 20, 2017, 07:08:51 am
I'll never get the ridiculous praise of Patty Jenkins with WW


It was reported that James Cameron expressed similar concerns, not about the director of 'Wonder Woman' but the superheroine, Wonder Woman herself.  The rumor goes on that the female characters in his films are much more hardier than how Wonder Woman was characterized.

Personally, I couldn't give a  ___ck about Wonder Woman 'cause I despise dc comics & all of their characters.  :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Vic Vega on September 26, 2017, 06:29:59 am
I'll never get the ridiculous praise of Patty Jenkins with WW

She didn't take a year and a day to get to the point.

It's a minor problem in Marvel movies but its a really BIG problem with DC films. It doesn't take
all that long to get to Amazons v Nazis and the movie takes off from there.



It was reported that James Cameron expressed similar concerns, not about the director of 'Wonder Woman' but the superheroine, Wonder Woman herself.  The rumor goes on that the female characters in his films are much more hardier than how Wonder Woman was characterized.

Personally, I couldn't give a  ___ck about Wonder Woman 'cause I despise dc comics & all of their characters.  :)

Cameron is the type of dude who when asked how to do something is gonna answer "Do it the way I would, of course". All Cameron's action heroines are scruffy and somewhat mannish(Titanic's Rose ISN'T an Action Heroine).

NOBODY wanted a scruffy and somewhat mannish Wonder Woman but Cameron's ego's is way to big to acknowledge that.
 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 26, 2017, 06:31:21 am
I'll never get the ridiculous praise of Patty Jenkins with WW

She didn't take a year and a day to get to the point.

It's a minor problem in Marvel movies but its a really BIG problem with DC films. It doesn't take
all that long to get to Amazons v Nazis and the movie takes off from there.

I really hope she has help on the action scenes next movie.

THe character moments were very good
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 26, 2017, 09:07:49 am

Cameron is the type of dude who when asked how to do something is gonna answer "Do it the way I would, of course". All Cameron's action heroines are scruffy and somewhat mannish(Titanic's Rose ISN'T an Action Heroine).

NOBODY wanted a scruffy and somewhat mannish Wonder Woman but Cameron's ego's is way to big to acknowledge that.



Wasn't Rose the narrator of the story in 'Titanic'?
She and her mother were the uptight, aristocrats on economic decline attempting to 'marry up', yes?
It was Leonardo DiCaprio's character who got Rose all scruffy & loose at the low class festivities in the lower decks of the ship that inspired her to greater independence when the hull was breached by the iceberg.  Remember when Rose volunteered to stay behind when everyone else evacuated?

It was Rose who rescued DiCaprio's character that was handcuffed and about to drown.  Indeed, Rose became the action heroine.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on September 26, 2017, 09:25:05 am
I'll never get the ridiculous praise of Patty Jenkins with WW


It was reported that James Cameron expressed similar concerns, not about the director of 'Wonder Woman' but the superheroine, Wonder Woman herself.  The rumor goes on that the female characters in his films are much more hardier than how Wonder Woman was characterized.

Personally, I couldn't give a  ___ck about Wonder Woman 'cause I despise dc comics & all of their characters.  :)

eh, there was nothing wrong with Gadot's WW... she was feminine without being sexualized and at the same time kicked ass.

She didn't need to look like Sarah Conner. She's a God.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on September 26, 2017, 09:51:00 am

eh, there was nothing wrong with Gadot's WW... she was feminine without being sexualized and at the same time kicked ass.

She didn't need to look like Sarah Conner. She's a God.





Not interested in seeing Wonder Woman.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on November 05, 2017, 05:19:24 pm
Would I like to be a Jedi? I think it would be more interesting if they had more than one person be a Jedi --- but I think that that is the one of the unspoken laws of Star Wars. They only have one who has to go away and train. [...] I hope it takes an interesting turn; not in terms of being a Jedi, but there are loads more stronger characters in the Star Wars universe that can go up against Jedi and they don't necessarily have to be a Jedi. [...] I would like to explore that more; the whole Boba Fett vibe. I would like to explore that for Finn, but who knows?Ē


Poor boyega
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 06, 2017, 01:58:29 am
Boyega knows his character was inadequate and not well defined and is hoping they'll throw him a bone or two. The idea that it's only one Jedi at a time doesn't even work for the original trilogy where we had Obi Wan and Yoda with Luke becoming a Jedi officially after defeating Vader. The prequels of course had multiple Jedi. Even Rebels has Kanan, Ezra as a padawan, and at least one ex-Jedi with Ahsoka.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 21, 2017, 09:26:57 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/billy-dee-williams-lando-calrissian-wont-be-making-an-appearance-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi-a155591 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/billy-dee-williams-lando-calrissian-wont-be-making-an-appearance-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi-a155591)


I think that Rian Johnson's answer is b.s. to me, because some of this movie takes place on a casino planet. A casino planet is the perfect place for Lando. But this is more of how Lando was treated as an after thought in the now discounted Expanded Universe. I mean they can put all these other people in there but not Lando? Heck, the alien Lupita played in TFA could've easily been Lando. He never factors into these stories or when he does as he's in a b.s. role because they don't think to put him in there, which is a shame.

At least he was in an episode of Rebels and got a Marvel comics miniseries lately.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on November 21, 2017, 09:31:29 am
Do they not realize Black people like Star Wars too?

Remember how excited people were when the first trailer hit wth black jedi?

sigh
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 21, 2017, 09:51:32 am
Personally I don't think they care about black fans. Sure, they'll gladly take our money and it's beneficial to see black fans sprinkled among white ones to tout diversity. But is that diversity really for blacks, or just to make whites feel better about themselves? When I look at Finn particularly that is a black character that doesn't do much in terms of presenting a positive image for black kids. He has some good traits but they are overshadowed by the bad ones. And the other black characters have often been in the background, like wallpaper. They get diversity points but that's it. And I think that's the view whites have of blacks. It's finally okay for you to be seen after centuries, but you aren't supposed to say much. Unless it's to support the important white characters. And if you die you are unmourned and forgotten.

Now, I'm sure some will mention Finn, Lando, Saw, Mace, Korr Sella, the at least three 'black' female Jedi in the prequel films, even the one black Imperial cadet and the one Mandalorian (voiced by Gina Torres I believe) both in Rebels, but I think my statement stands. Look at how Lando has been treated. He is one of the  most iconic characters in the original films that they can't even come up with a decent idea of what he's been up to (to be fair, they screwed that up with Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, 3PO, and R2 as well). Mace is one of the best depicted black characters in Star Wars IMO, so I don't have many gripes there, though I wish we had seen more of him in action in the prequel films and in the Clone Wars cartoon. The black female Jedi were given short shrift, but so were a lot of prequel Jedi. The main problem I have with Saw is that they had him go out like a punk which didn't fit the character they had established as being a hardcore fighter. Let him go out fighting the Empire. He just wouldn't give up. I haven't watched enough Rebels to make a judgment about the black characters on there, but you don't see them on any of the promotional material (the pilot did get a YA book series though), so there you go in terms of how important they are to the overall story. There is also a black Imperial officer in the canon novels, but I haven't read them so I don't know how important she is. From what little I know she is not running things.

In comparison, Star Trek has depicted black characters far better. Just having Uhura on TOS was groundbreaking and then they had a black commodore and a black genius (albeit it he was mentally unstable) in Dr. Richard Daystrom. TNG had Geordi, and though they blueballed him, and had Data and Wesley be smarter than him, he still contributed. DS9 had Captain Sisko. They undercut him a little, but Sisko is the most well developed black character in any sci-fi show or movie I've seen ever. He was a good father, a tough fighter, a smart warrior, and a lover and family man. Sisko was also racially conscious. He didn't always get the screen time, but DS9 was a very well-written show. VOY had Tuvok. I didn't care for them having to make a Vulcan of all people mentally weak at times, but still I thought Tuvok was a worthy successor to Spock. I haven't watched all of VOY but I from what I've read they also gave Tuvok some shows to develop his character as well. Trek took a step back with ENT, and Mayweather was just sort of there. He got a handful of episodes throughout that show's run and even a little white treat in the final season, but he was never well developed. ENT at least had a black man, Emory Erickson, invent the transporter.  So two of the key geniuses in Trek lore are black.

The Abrams films beefed up Uhura's role and made her the third most prominently featured character behind Kirk and Spock. Discovery could push the ball even forward with the depiction of blacks and black female characters in particular with Michael Burnham. This is the first series since DS9 to be centered around a black character. And already Burnham, from what I've seen, read, and heard, Burnham is one of the brightest and most capable officers ever in Starfleet.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on November 22, 2017, 12:40:17 pm
http://io9.gizmodo.com/andy-serkis-offers-hints-about-snokes-past-in-the-last-1820681227 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/andy-serkis-offers-hints-about-snokes-past-in-the-last-1820681227)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 02, 2017, 04:32:47 am
http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-timeline-of-everything-we-know-happened-after-return-1820781008 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-timeline-of-everything-we-know-happened-after-return-1820781008)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 02, 2017, 04:37:19 am
Thanks for that


Star wars cintinuity is hard to keep up with since it spans all media
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Battle on December 02, 2017, 05:41:21 am
Watching Mr. John Boyega as a guest earlier this week on Jimmy Kimmel talking a little bit about the next episode of 'Star Wars' also reveals that he is recognized as Chief in his native homeland, Nigeria.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 02, 2017, 11:46:08 am
it would be a shame for Lando to not have a reaction to Han's death.  there's no excuse to not bring him in for part 9.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 04, 2017, 06:27:31 pm
http://screenrant.com/star-wars-most-powerful-beings-in-galaxy-ranked/ (http://screenrant.com/star-wars-most-powerful-beings-in-galaxy-ranked/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 04, 2017, 06:53:08 pm
[url]http://screenrant.com/star-wars-most-powerful-beings-in-galaxy-ranked/[/url] ([url]http://screenrant.com/star-wars-most-powerful-beings-in-galaxy-ranked/[/url])


Im bitter we are going from newb luke straight to Yoda like exile luke
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 05, 2017, 07:49:37 pm
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/258561/star-wars-exploring-the-many-snoke-fan-theories (http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/258561/star-wars-exploring-the-many-snoke-fan-theories)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 08, 2017, 04:04:00 pm
http://geektyrant.com/news/watch-the-star-wars-the-last-jedi-cast-address-different-snoke-theories (http://geektyrant.com/news/watch-the-star-wars-the-last-jedi-cast-address-different-snoke-theories)


http://io9.gizmodo.com/11-minor-star-wars-characters-who-got-absurdly-full-liv-1820985136 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/11-minor-star-wars-characters-who-got-absurdly-full-liv-1820985136)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 10, 2017, 05:37:02 am
More on Snoke theories:

http://www.cbr.com/snoke-fan-theories/ (http://www.cbr.com/snoke-fan-theories/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 12, 2017, 09:12:11 am
ive been on the fence to see this movie this weekend mostly due to the crowds and such.

I finally found reliable spoilers

and I have no desire to even see thsi movie at all. This spoilers sounds horrible and stupid and incredibly frustrating honestly.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 12, 2017, 04:10:54 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/11/box-office-how-will-star-wars-the-last-jedi-fare-against-an-army-of-kid-friendly-xmas-movies/#4b53ea361ef3 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/11/box-office-how-will-star-wars-the-last-jedi-fare-against-an-army-of-kid-friendly-xmas-movies/#4b53ea361ef3)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review-the-force-is-incredibly-strong-with-this-one/#8e331d76189e (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review-the-force-is-incredibly-strong-with-this-one/#8e331d76189e)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/curtissilver/2017/12/12/warning-this-post-contains-spoilers-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#42046c6e73df (http://www.forbes.com/sites/curtissilver/2017/12/12/warning-this-post-contains-spoilers-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#42046c6e73df)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2017/12/12/review-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-gloomier-flawed-but-ultimately-successful-sequel/#1974d8202e79 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2017/12/12/review-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-gloomier-flawed-but-ultimately-successful-sequel/#1974d8202e79)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-takes-star-wars-movies-to-a-fantastic-new-1821200662 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-last-jedi-takes-star-wars-movies-to-a-fantastic-new-1821200662)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/13/the-last-jedi-may-be-too-good-of-a-star-wars-movie/#20848fbf45ef (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/13/the-last-jedi-may-be-too-good-of-a-star-wars-movie/#20848fbf45ef)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/13/international-box-office-where-the-last-jedi-faces-an-uphill-battle/#975524129dce (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/13/international-box-office-where-the-last-jedi-faces-an-uphill-battle/#975524129dce)

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 12, 2017, 04:15:41 pm
You Tube reviews (Beware Spoilers!!!!)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4HKi06CaBU#)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qL4lMQQ9IE#)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaW-XlWNlOc#)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lCW-iaOZ_M#)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HsIrTS1jq0#)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 13, 2017, 02:25:57 pm
I hope I can do a mini-marathon of this and Justice League this weekend.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 13, 2017, 03:48:15 pm
http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/11-star-wars-prequel-ideas-abandoned-by-george-lucas.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/11-star-wars-prequel-ideas-abandoned-by-george-lucas.html)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/13/will-disney-avoid-the-star-wars-prequel-pitfalls/#d069cd2652ea (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/13/will-disney-avoid-the-star-wars-prequel-pitfalls/#d069cd2652ea)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/8-things-you-need-to-know-from-the-star-wars-comics-and-novels-before-seeing-the-last-jedi-a156318 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/8-things-you-need-to-know-from-the-star-wars-comics-and-novels-before-seeing-the-last-jedi-a156318)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi Review (Spoilers)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 15, 2017, 03:21:06 pm
I checked out The Last Jedi last night. Itís better than The Force Awakens, but not as good as Rogue One. I think Iíve fallen out of love with Star Wars. The Last Jedi was chock full of action, a dash of romance, and humor (some of it poorly inserted), but I was rarely moved by most of it. It was like a bunch of nice looking action scenes and wow moments stitched together on an assembly line with no guiding creative vision behind it. I havenít figured out what this second trilogy is supposed to be about. In truth, I donít really think itís about anything but making more money for Disney.

I do think The Last Jedi did attempt to address some of the problems in TFA. Most of the new young actors got more development and/or more scenes, for good or ill. Also, Snoke mocked Ren a bit for being a Vader fanboy, we got more of Poe doing derring-do, more Phasma, Rey was less of a Mary Sue, and Finn was less of a walking stereotype, so those things were good in a sense, but not enough to make me care about these characters. In fact, my estimation of Poe went down a bit. Thereís also several new characters added to the saga, the chief one being Rose, one of the X-wing mechanics, who gets a sizable role in this film.

The new sequel seems to love bringing down the original trilogy heroes, and itís odd to me that many of these filmmakers likely grew up idolizing Luke, Leia, and Han, and Disney certainly wants to make as much money as possible on those characters and all of the other characters too. Yet, I feel that itís almost like the filmmakers, with Disneyís consent, see the original trilogy heroes like a child who gets older and starts to see the flaws in their parents. I also wonder if the sequel trilogy is really almost anti-Lucas in a sense, though itís so drenched in nostalgia, itís hard to see. That perhaps there is a cynicism about public figures, about societal heroes, about institutions, and that todayís audience, and the filmmakers, are too hip to buy pure heroism, so the heroes have to be taken down, dirt has to be thrown on them, that institutions are corrupt or grow corrupt over time.

Lucas did present those ideas in his prequel films, to some extent, though I think his take on Star Wars was more hopeful. The word Ďhopeí is mentioned more than once in The Last Jedi, like a mantra, but I didnít really feel it was that genuine. Certainly the film had heroic moments and the final scene speaks to its professions of hope for the future, but Iím not quite buying it yet. The Last Jedi also touched on the moral relativism that reared its head in Rogue One as well.

There is no end credit scene for TLJ. There is a brief acknowledgment for Carrie Fisher though in the closing credits.

What I liked about the film:
-The cinematography looked great. Itís a gorgeous looking film, maybe the best looking of any of the Star Wars films.
-The special effects were pretty good.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
-Snoke. Snoke finally took on a menace that I felt was lacking in TFA. And he seemed to possess more power than even Palpatine.
-Character development. As I mentioned before, Johnson moved the saga in the right direction by building up the core characters more. I still think there is work to be done, but it was a good step.
-Force bond: I thought that was a really neat way to build on the Ren/Rey connection.
-Yoda: Itís always great to see him again. I was hoping to see other Force ghosts as well, but alas.
-The Resistance. The Resistance feels more like a ragtag, desperate group than the Rebel Alliance did in the original films, or even the Resistance in TFA.

What I didnít like about the film:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
-Time: It was confusing for me to figure out how soon this movie happened after TFA. The opening crawl seemed to suggest that there had been more battles as the First Order was crushing the Resistance, but after the big space battle at the start of the film, it jumps right to Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke. It felt like there should have been more passage of time than that, time enough to allow the First Order to regroup after losing Starkiller Base.
-Plot: There wasnít a lot of story in this movie that was two hours and thirty minutes. And I felt some of it was tacked on just because of that running time and also to stuff it with more action and Ďhumorí scenes.
-Humor: Some was fine, but some was too contemporary and done for an immediate cheap laugh. I also think some was meant to be a bit shocking or daring, or to make the story feel more unpredictable than it really was. I also think the film was at times too self-aware for its own good.
-First Order: The opening crawl sets them up as being more formidable than they were in TFA. But the first scene shows them to be pretty incompetent and that doesnít change for most of the film. I donít buy Hux as a great general. In fact, TLJ decided to go the comedy route with him, weakening him even further. I thought Kylo Ren was better handled this time around, but still Iím not buying him as a leader. Heís still got to get his weight up. Also, the First Orderís tendency to play with the Resistance instead of crushing them when they have the chance just made them look even more weaker. Their behavior felt more plot dictated than organic.
-Snokeís demise. While his death was a nice surprise and the way he went was pretty cool, I felt this was ultimately a waste of a character. There was really nothing to him because the film didnít explain who he was or where he came from before axing him. So all he remains is a low-rent Palpatine. And that sucks because the film was building him up to be very powerful in the Force. However, his powers-like many Jedi throughout the saga-are very plot dictated. I had read a rumor before seeing the film that Snoke was possibly the first Jedi. That is not revealed in the film, but I wish they had gone that route since they ruled out Darth Plageuis. With Snoke gone there isnít a really strong villain for the next film.
-Poe: He was way too rash. Perhaps Disney feels it needs to fill the role of Han Solo, but I felt that Dameron was at times too pushy.
-Finn: Johnson did better by Finn than Abrams. That being said, there was still the broad comedy that was at Finnís expense, he still kept getting taken down in fights, mostly by women in a way to emasculate him. Another way that was done was with the character Rose. Rose was often bossing him around and then she denied him his big sacrificial moment, the time when he had fully shed his fear of the First Order. The plus side is that she cares for him, said she loved him, and even kissed him, but I did notice that sheís the forceful one more so than him. Finn was still Rey crazy at first, but that was tempered somewhat. And I thought it was interesting when they showed Rey watching as Finn was checking in on an injured Rose. I couldnít read her expression. I canít say it was jealousy on Reyís part, but perhaps satisfaction that Finn had found someone, or that maybe he would stop hounding her. And Finn finally got a big win on Phasma, a pretty much unqualified win, so that was pretty cool.
-Reyís parents: I hope itís just a fake out, but the reveal that Reyís parents were nobodies just felt anticlimactic. So much speculation had been built up over that, especially because of TFAís focusing on it, and TLJ focused on it as well.
-Canto Blight: The casino world that Finn and Rose go to just felt like padding. And the alien designs werenít that interesting.
-DJ: Though Benecio Del Toro added a stutter to his performance-something I donít recall any Star Wars character having before-I was hoping for more with his character. And there might be in the next film, but I wish it had been more here. As it stands, he was there to show that both the Resistance and First Order had bloody hands and to betray Finn and Rose. But we never got the change of heart that we did with Lando. And that perhaps was Johnson trying to flip things again, but doing what was unexpected.
-Vice Admiral Holdo. I think they wasted Laura Dern in this role. I also didnít like that she wasnít in a uniform. She was dressed more like a Senator. I wish they had made her a First Order admiral or something instead. And she was there to also to flip expectations, sacrificing herself in a scene that normally wouldíve had Leia doing it.
-Iím iffy on Luke here. I can see why Mark Hamill had some issues with Rian Johnsonís take on his character. I will give points that the film does lay out why Luke went into exile, providing some reasoning for it. Still I wish that they had went another route with him. And it sucks that we so far have never really seen Luke just cut loose with that lightsaber. Also, the scene with Luke drinking alien breast milk was very unneeded.
-Lightsaber battles: The best was a team-up of Rey and Ren versus Snokeís bodyguards. It wasnít the greatest fight in the saga, but it was decent and had at least one cool moment to it. And it was a lightsaber fight that was badly needed. I think the sequel trilogy is trying to go for the less action, more emotion of the original filmsí lightsaber battles, but the characters havenít earned that yet. The battle between Ren and Luke was a disappointment, but I get why they went that route.
-Space battles: The space battles werenít the best here. There was a good heroic last stand on the desert planet at the end, but for the most part the space combat scenes are not going to be hallmarks of the saga.
-Bigger is not always better. I think one of the many problems with the sequels is just having bigger starships, bigger weapons, etc. And itís not just about that. I mean Rogue Oneís Krennic, a bureaucrat, radiated more menace than Hux. Itís not about the position, itís about the actors, the material they are given, and the tone. I still feel that too many of the new sequel characters are just kids playing dress up.


How I rank the Star Wars live-action films:
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Episode IV: A New Hope
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Episode VII: The Force Awakens
Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 15, 2017, 07:07:13 pm
I dont think ur alone

It has a 56% audience score right now on RT. Compared to a 90+ critic score

Star war fans who grew up with luke, hans, lea, ect are simply not happy that eith the return of these characters... it has been reduced to this.

Doesnt maje a film "bad" but it can mean its not what fans want.

But unless sw fans stop buying tickets it wont matter.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 16, 2017, 03:28:28 am
All you said was very true. I intend to go once more myself. One critic-who also had conflicted feelings about it-said that he heard it got better if you watched it again. Plus, I wasn't a fan of TFA and watched that twice, so I feel like I 'owe' it to TLJ to give it another shot. Star Wars is such a global phenomenon that perhaps the dissenters don't really matter. I mean people were clapping at the end of TLJ. TLJ will no doubt be a success, but I don't know how much re-watch value it has beyond the hardcore fans. I didn't find it as kid-friendly as TFA, despite the inclusion (or intrusion) of the cutesy Porgs (give me Ewoks any day, at least they contributed something to the plot. Damn it, even the freaking Gungans did too I hate to admit).

I do think the original heroes deserved better. The areas Disney is trying to be different, mainly in throwing dirt on the original heroes, are the change I don't want to see. Everything else is a retread. I'm not sure why they allowed Abrams and Johnson to do this to the original heroes. Was it done to build up the new heroes? If so, I don't think it's really worked because the new heroes aren't that interesting. They are played by good actors, but there's little gripping about the new heroes. And the First Order is a weaker, wannabe Empire.

Perhaps the sequels are attempting some kind of moral complexity or gray areas when it comes to the original characters, which is strange and feels unearned. If Lucas was doing that, I would have issues but feel better about it, because these were his creations and he had a vision-perhaps-of how their lives would go. It doesn't quite feel that these are the characters Lucas created. Sure they have the same names and are played by the same actors, but a different creation 'vision' (or lack thereof) is driving their actions.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 16, 2017, 05:18:06 am
http://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/star-wars-haters-why-fans-194746047.html (http://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/star-wars-haters-why-fans-194746047.html)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 16, 2017, 05:26:10 am
Casual vs hardcore thing.

Casuals are what matter for ticket sales. Casuals havent read old EU stories or fanfics in their head about the awesome abilities of Luke for instance. They have no real expectations except to be entertained.

Disneys only job with them is ti make them like rey, kylo, and poe really

I do wonder if the slightly more hardcore crowd does affect merch sales tho. Housewife anne aint wearing a kylo tshirt for instance lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 16, 2017, 06:01:24 am
^
I get that. The thing is I question whether the goal of making the new characters likable actually works. Yes, the ticket sales say otherwise. That being said, how much of this love for the new Star Wars just isn't the result of massive marketing by the media? What really stands out about these new characters? What makes them stand on their own. The biggest standout to me is Rey because of her gender and the raw Force power she possesses, that adds something to the overall saga. Ren's Force abilities are uneven, but he's essentially another 'whiny' Skywalker. The Rogue One characters were more interesting, on paper, though they were mostly poorly developed.

The film does have spectacle, it has color, big action, humor, etc. But for a casual fan, I think Thor: Ragnarok was a cosmic adventure more fun than The Last Jedi. I personally liked Justice League more than The Last Jedi. I'm not a casual fan, but trying to look at TLJ through that kind of lens I think it's a bit lacking as an overall entertaining film. It definitely has entertaining parts, entertaining characters, but I don't think the parts hold together well.

Good question about merchandise. That is where the hardcore fans are going to have an impact. I still see some Rogue One toys in stores. That material is not selling. It will be interesting to see how well TLJ stuff sells.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 16, 2017, 06:45:40 am
Quote
The thing is I question whether the goal of making the new characters likable actually works.

Just based on TFA, no.

I still need to see TLJ, I know the spoilers but I need to see it to really judge it.


I always like to compare the MCU to the SWU just because they are the dominating forces in hollywood right now and owned by the same company.

MCU has the advantage of going through premade story boards (comics) and picking out the best bits, dumping the stuff they don't think will work, and making it work. Like, Ragnorak was a mix of the classic ragnorak storyline, the more modern one, planet hulk, and even the God Butcher stuff (Hela was more Gorr than comic hela IMO).

Star Wars, on the other hand, has chosen to 100% dump their premade scripts (EU) and for some reason refusing to pull anything out of it that is meaningful. Instead they are crafting their own stories 100%.

So hardcores go into each of them differently IMO.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 16, 2017, 10:34:44 am
Do Not Underestimate the Dark Side of Disneyís ĎStar Warsí Trilogy
ĎThe Last Jedií solidifies what ĎThe Force Awakensí established: In a war-torn galaxy far, far away, hope has never been a harder sell

https://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/16/16783782/star-wars-the-last-jedi-hope-a-hard-sell (https://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/16/16783782/star-wars-the-last-jedi-hope-a-hard-sell)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 16, 2017, 01:34:18 pm
^
Thanks for the article. That was interesting. I also saw one on that website about why Kylo Ren is a compelling villain which was an interesting read as well.

I checked out the film a second time. I enjoyed it slightly more the second time, but not really enough to change what I had written before. The divisiveness of this film is well deserved. Some love it, some hate it, and some are torn in between. I am torn, though trending toward the negative category. On the second go round I really appreciated the visuals more. I also noticed some of the bad dialogue more too. Kylo Ren wasn't as bad to me on the second watch, but I still don't consider him or the First Order menacing enough. I do think some of how Ren was depicted in TLJ is how Anakin should have been in the prequel films. Lucas didn't know how to really show Anakin as conflicted, though sometimes he was able to pull it off, like when Anakin held his dying mother or when Anakin admitted to Padme that he had slaughtered the Sandpeople.

I very much agree with you about Disney chucking the EU. There's a lot of material there that could've been drawn from to supply tons of movies. And like you were saying, they took some of it but remixed it to fit their stories (and for the most part not as good as it was presented in the EU).


http://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/15/16780348/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-adam-driver-movie-villains (http://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/15/16780348/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-adam-driver-movie-villains)

http://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/14/16776102/star-wars-the-last-jedi-franchise-saturation-concerns (http://www.theringer.com/movies/2017/12/14/16776102/star-wars-the-last-jedi-franchise-saturation-concerns)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tanksleyd on December 16, 2017, 09:37:57 pm
Mark Hamill still can't act
So for the next Star Wars
I am going to wait for TBS
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 17, 2017, 04:45:43 am
http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/star-wars-rankings-most-powerful-sith-lords.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo (http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/star-wars-rankings-most-powerful-sith-lords.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-7-things-that-worked-and-4-things-that-didnt-a156367 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-7-things-that-worked-and-4-things-that-didnt-a156367)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-easter-eggs/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-easter-eggs/)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-luke-jedi-student-leia/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-luke-jedi-student-leia/)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-order-future/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-order-future/)



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 17, 2017, 05:10:34 am
A few more things to add about my thoughts, after the second viewing:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The film wasted Phasma. She's the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. It's possible that she does survive her fall into a ball of fire in TLJ, but if so, why? What's the point of bringing her back? Even though I am glad Finn actually won a fight, it doesn't make sense that he would beat Phasma, who is the freaking captain of the guard. To be fair though, Phasma did knock him off a ledge thereby 'winning' and Finn, on some levitation device, and took her by surprise, but still Finn really shouldn't have been in the fight as long as he was with her. Especially since she held animosity against him. Finn's victory would've made more sense if they had made him a competent Stormtrooper instead of a janitor in TFA.
The film also had Phasma do the standard, let's kill them slow routine that we've seen in countless stuff at this point. Perhaps Phasma not being up to snuff-despite that spiffy armor-would be fitting if they portrayed the First Order as smaller bore, as a splinter group, and so they aren't as efficient, aren't as well trained or professional as the Imperial Navy. That was the impression-or assumption-I was making about them going into The Force Awakens, that both the First Order and Resistance were smaller forces, fighting a war, not necessarily as proxies, for the remainder of the Empire and the New Republic. I felt TLJ really portrayed them as essentially as powerful and dominant as the Galactic Empire so Phasma should've been the best of the best. That goes with Snoke's Praetorian Guards too. While I did enjoy the Ren/Rey team-up to take them down, Rey was doing far better against those soldiers than she should've been, and Ren was struggling against them more than he should have been. The uneven fighting ability and Force abilities are just too plot driven for the sequels (its more noticeable than it was during the Lucas films).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Tanksleyd on December 17, 2017, 07:43:14 am
The emphasis was on tease with this one, but I"m good with that.

All the "good reviews"
Still defining
A lie
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: True Father Sankofa on December 17, 2017, 01:58:17 pm
Such a fantastic movie in which just about every character had a major moment. Hard to pick the best, from Luke punking his nephew to seeing Leia use the force (so many scenes of hers all the more moving due to her passing) Chewie flying the Falcon like a boss with no copilot (when Lando going to show up by the way?) Poe Dameron a beast in that X Wing as well, Yoda still schooling Luke on the sciences of life, Holdon's sacrifice, Finn against Phasma, Rose saving Finn, Rose's sister with her sacrifice, even frackin' BB8 in that walker. But Kylo f*ckin' Ren man, can't believe that's what Han and Leia gave birth too, that boy got issues though, lol. This is the satisfaction I been waiting on from a Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: True Father Sankofa on December 17, 2017, 02:01:33 pm
I hope I can do a mini-marathon of this and Justice League this weekend.  We'll see.
seen it 3 times in 4 days, today was IMAX which had two big Black Panther displays
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi Review (Spoilers)
Post by: True Father Sankofa on December 17, 2017, 02:11:54 pm
I checked out The Last Jedi last night. Itís better than The Force Awakens, but not as good as Rogue One. I think Iíve fallen out of love with Star Wars. The Last Jedi was chock full of action, a dash of romance, and humor (some of it poorly inserted), but I was rarely moved by most of it. It was like a bunch of nice looking action scenes and wow moments stitched together on an assembly line with no guiding creative vision behind it. I havenít figured out what this second trilogy is supposed to be about. In truth, I donít really think itís about anything but making more money for Disney.

I do think The Last Jedi did attempt to address some of the problems in TFA. Most of the new young actors got more development and/or more scenes, for good or ill. Also, Snoke mocked Ren a bit for being a Vader fanboy, we got more of Poe doing derring-do, more Phasma, Rey was less of a Mary Sue, and Finn was less of a walking stereotype, so those things were good in a sense, but not enough to make me care about these characters. In fact, my estimation of Poe went down a bit. Thereís also several new characters added to the saga, the chief one being Rose, one of the X-wing mechanics, who gets a sizable role in this film.

The new sequel seems to love bringing down the original trilogy heroes, and itís odd to me that many of these filmmakers likely grew up idolizing Luke, Leia, and Han, and Disney certainly wants to make as much money as possible on those characters and all of the other characters too. Yet, I feel that itís almost like the filmmakers, with Disneyís consent, see the original trilogy heroes like a child who gets older and starts to see the flaws in their parents. I also wonder if the sequel trilogy is really almost anti-Lucas in a sense, though itís so drenched in nostalgia, itís hard to see. That perhaps there is a cynicism about public figures, about societal heroes, about institutions, and that todayís audience, and the filmmakers, are too hip to buy pure heroism, so the heroes have to be taken down, dirt has to be thrown on them, that institutions are corrupt or grow corrupt over time.

Lucas did present those ideas in his prequel films, to some extent, though I think his take on Star Wars was more hopeful. The word Ďhopeí is mentioned more than once in The Last Jedi, like a mantra, but I didnít really feel it was that genuine. Certainly the film had heroic moments and the final scene speaks to its professions of hope for the future, but Iím not quite buying it yet. The Last Jedi also touched on the moral relativism that reared its head in Rogue One as well.

There is no end credit scene for TLJ. There is a brief acknowledgment for Carrie Fisher though in the closing credits.

What I liked about the film:
-The cinematography looked great. Itís a gorgeous looking film, maybe the best looking of any of the Star Wars films.
-The special effects were pretty good.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
-Snoke. Snoke finally took on a menace that I felt was lacking in TFA. And he seemed to possess more power than even Palpatine.
-Character development. As I mentioned before, Johnson moved the saga in the right direction by building up the core characters more. I still think there is work to be done, but it was a good step.
-Force bond: I thought that was a really neat way to build on the Ren/Rey connection.
-Yoda: Itís always great to see him again. I was hoping to see other Force ghosts as well, but alas.
-The Resistance. The Resistance feels more like a ragtag, desperate group than the Rebel Alliance did in the original films, or even the Resistance in TFA.

What I didnít like about the film:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
-Time: It was confusing for me to figure out how soon this movie happened after TFA. The opening crawl seemed to suggest that there had been more battles as the First Order was crushing the Resistance, but after the big space battle at the start of the film, it jumps right to Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke. It felt like there should have been more passage of time than that, time enough to allow the First Order to regroup after losing Starkiller Base.
-Plot: There wasnít a lot of story in this movie that was two hours and thirty minutes. And I felt some of it was tacked on just because of that running time and also to stuff it with more action and Ďhumorí scenes.
-Humor: Some was fine, but some was too contemporary and done for an immediate cheap laugh. I also think some was meant to be a bit shocking or daring, or to make the story feel more unpredictable than it really was. I also think the film was at times too self-aware for its own good.
-First Order: The opening crawl sets them up as being more formidable than they were in TFA. But the first scene shows them to be pretty incompetent and that doesnít change for most of the film. I donít buy Hux as a great general. In fact, TLJ decided to go the comedy route with him, weakening him even further. I thought Kylo Ren was better handled this time around, but still Iím not buying him as a leader. Heís still got to get his weight up. Also, the First Orderís tendency to play with the Resistance instead of crushing them when they have the chance just made them look even more weaker. Their behavior felt more plot dictated than organic.
-Snokeís demise. While his death was a nice surprise and the way he went was pretty cool, I felt this was ultimately a waste of a character. There was really nothing to him because the film didnít explain who he was or where he came from before axing him. So all he remains is a low-rent Palpatine. And that sucks because the film was building him up to be very powerful in the Force. However, his powers-like many Jedi throughout the saga-are very plot dictated. I had read a rumor before seeing the film that Snoke was possibly the first Jedi. That is not revealed in the film, but I wish they had gone that route since they ruled out Darth Plageuis. With Snoke gone there isnít a really strong villain for the next film.
-Poe: He was way too rash. Perhaps Disney feels it needs to fill the role of Han Solo, but I felt that Dameron was at times too pushy.
-Finn: Johnson did better by Finn than Abrams. That being said, there was still the broad comedy that was at Finnís expense, he still kept getting taken down in fights, mostly by women in a way to emasculate him. Another way that was done was with the character Rose. Rose was often bossing him around and then she denied him his big sacrificial moment, the time when he had fully shed his fear of the First Order. The plus side is that she cares for him, said she loved him, and even kissed him, but I did notice that sheís the forceful one more so than him. Finn was still Rey crazy at first, but that was tempered somewhat. And I thought it was interesting when they showed Rey watching as Finn was checking in on an injured Rose. I couldnít read her expression. I canít say it was jealousy on Reyís part, but perhaps satisfaction that Finn had found someone, or that maybe he would stop hounding her. And Finn finally got a big win on Phasma, a pretty much unqualified win, so that was pretty cool.
-Reyís parents: I hope itís just a fake out, but the reveal that Reyís parents were nobodies just felt anticlimactic. So much speculation had been built up over that, especially because of TFAís focusing on it, and TLJ focused on it as well.
-Canto Blight: The casino world that Finn and Rose go to just felt like padding. And the alien designs werenít that interesting.
-DJ: Though Benecio Del Toro added a stutter to his performance-something I donít recall any Star Wars character having before-I was hoping for more with his character. And there might be in the next film, but I wish it had been more here. As it stands, he was there to show that both the Resistance and First Order had bloody hands and to betray Finn and Rose. But we never got the change of heart that we did with Lando. And that perhaps was Johnson trying to flip things again, but doing what was unexpected.
-Vice Admiral Holdo. I think they wasted Laura Dern in this role. I also didnít like that she wasnít in a uniform. She was dressed more like a Senator. I wish they had made her a First Order admiral or something instead. And she was there to also to flip expectations, sacrificing herself in a scene that normally wouldíve had Leia doing it.
-Iím iffy on Luke here. I can see why Mark Hamill had some issues with Rian Johnsonís take on his character. I will give points that the film does lay out why Luke went into exile, providing some reasoning for it. Still I wish that they had went another route with him. And it sucks that we so far have never really seen Luke just cut loose with that lightsaber. Also, the scene with Luke drinking alien breast milk was very unneeded.
-Lightsaber battles: The best was a team-up of Rey and Ren versus Snokeís bodyguards. It wasnít the greatest fight in the saga, but it was decent and had at least one cool moment to it. And it was a lightsaber fight that was badly needed. I think the sequel trilogy is trying to go for the less action, more emotion of the original filmsí lightsaber battles, but the characters havenít earned that yet. The battle between Ren and Luke was a disappointment, but I get why they went that route.
-Space battles: The space battles werenít the best here. There was a good heroic last stand on the desert planet at the end, but for the most part the space combat scenes are not going to be hallmarks of the saga.
-Bigger is not always better. I think one of the many problems with the sequels is just having bigger starships, bigger weapons, etc. And itís not just about that. I mean Rogue Oneís Krennic, a bureaucrat, radiated more menace than Hux. Itís not about the position, itís about the actors, the material they are given, and the tone. I still feel that too many of the new sequel characters are just kids playing dress up.


How I rank the Star Wars live-action films:
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Episode IV: A New Hope
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Episode VII: The Force Awakens
Episode I: The Phantom Menace

Empire Strikes Back
The Last Jedi
Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Rogue One
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
Phantom Menance
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Trailer)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 17, 2017, 04:07:46 pm
I hope I can do a mini-marathon of this and Justice League this weekend.  We'll see.
seen it 3 times in 4 days, today was IMAX which had two big Black Panther displays

For a brief period at the theater I go to the most, they had a poster of Black Panther beside John Boyega fronting the Pacific Rim 2 movie. That was pretty cool to see.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 18, 2017, 01:18:45 pm
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-negative-fan-reactions-rotten-tomatoes-score (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-negative-fan-reactions-rotten-tomatoes-score)

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-fan-theories-led-last-jedi-disappointment-1068718 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-fan-theories-led-last-jedi-disappointment-1068718)

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/the-last-jedi-easter-eggs-spoilers (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/the-last-jedi-easter-eggs-spoilers)

http://variety.com/2017/biz/box-office/last-jedi-2017-box-office-1202630358/ (http://variety.com/2017/biz/box-office/last-jedi-2017-box-office-1202630358/)

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/disney-defends-star-wars-last-153940334.html (http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/disney-defends-star-wars-last-153940334.html)

http://www.wired.com/story/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review/ (http://www.wired.com/story/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review/)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/save-apos-star-wars-apos-122842126.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/save-apos-star-wars-apos-122842126.html)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-here-are-5-story-tidbits-you-didnt-know-about-the-film-a156438 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-here-are-5-story-tidbits-you-didnt-know-about-the-film-a156438)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-has-the-perfect-response-to-fan-backlash-a156429 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-has-the-perfect-response-to-fan-backlash-a156429)

http://www.businessinsider.com/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12 (http://www.businessinsider.com/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-rian-johnson-reveals-amazing-sounding-star-wars-the-last-jedi-deleted-scenes-a156436 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-rian-johnson-reveals-amazing-sounding-star-wars-the-last-jedi-deleted-scenes-a156436)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-whispering-tree/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-whispering-tree/)

http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-snoke-plot-device/ (http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-snoke-plot-device/)

http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-plot-holes/ (http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-plot-holes/)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-few-of-the-last-jedi-cameos-you-may-have-missed-1821390338 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-few-of-the-last-jedi-cameos-you-may-have-missed-1821390338)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-24-biggest-questions-we-have-after-seeing-star-wars-1821308682 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-24-biggest-questions-we-have-after-seeing-star-wars-1821308682)

http://www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-audience-751726?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo (http://www.newsweek.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-audience-751726?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=yahoo_news&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=/rss/yahoous/news&yptr=yahoo)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-why-star-wars-fans-hate-one-of-the-best-star-wars-movies/#3a25be1b5658 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-why-star-wars-fans-hate-one-of-the-best-star-wars-movies/#3a25be1b5658)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-proved-the-heros-journey-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/#72b1d3bf4311 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-proved-the-heros-journey-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/#72b1d3bf4311)

http://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a (http://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a)

http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/last-jedi-subverts-suicide-noble-blood-trope/ (http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/last-jedi-subverts-suicide-noble-blood-trope/)

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-star-wars-apos-book-142014091.html (http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-star-wars-apos-book-142014091.html)

http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/)

http://www.slashfilm.com/last-jedi-fan-complaints/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/last-jedi-fan-complaints/)

http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-costume-designer/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-costume-designer/)

http://www.slashfilm.com/luke-skywalkers-compass/ (http://www.slashfilm.com/luke-skywalkers-compass/)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-heres-how-those-controversial-new-force-abilities-work-a156469 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-heres-how-those-controversial-new-force-abilities-work-a156469)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-on-how-spoilers-death-may-affect-episode-ix-a156468 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-on-how-spoilers-death-may-affect-episode-ix-a156468)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-concept-art-features-alternate-takes-on-kylo-ren-phasma-snoke-and-more-a156472 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-concept-art-features-alternate-takes-on-kylo-ren-phasma-snoke-and-more-a156472)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/rian-johnson-explains-why-obi-wan-kenobi-didnt-return-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi-a156464 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/rian-johnson-explains-why-obi-wan-kenobi-didnt-return-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi-a156464)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vic Vega on December 19, 2017, 07:58:44 am
Well, I can see why this movie is going to be really divisive among the fandom.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
But this is the movie that a lot of the grumblers in the fandom wanted.

The whole point of the film is the democratization of the Rebellion in general and The Force in particular. Anytime anybody in this movie believed their own heroic hype, they failed.

Luke failed Sister and Han by even training his nephew in the Force in the first place. He failed Kylo by not believing in him. f*ck, Poe loses a 2 squadrons (and worse) because he can't follow orders he doesn't like. Finn and Rose's secret mission outright fails. Rey fails to turn Kylo. Snoke fails by underestimating Kylo. Leia's call to arms fails.

Everybody failed here.

In fact the heroic successes can only be measured in the "little people" who are inspired to join the struggle. It's people like Rose and her sister and those little kids at the end who are going to win this for the Rebellion, not the Star Warriors in and of themselves. That is what the point of the Casino side mission was. Yeah, they didn't get the code-breaker guy, but they did as much as they could to help/inspire the downtrodden while they were on Casino Planet. Which is what really mattered in the end.

I will just say I don't really see the point in calling out Finn's failures in particular for scorn in a movie where Poe loses a entire Squadron, (no 2 Squadrons: Fighters AND Bombers) gets demoted for it, then mutinies and fails at said mutiny, forcing his new CO to sacrifice her life all because Poe's dumb ass can't follow orders.

BTW, You know all those peeps who hate the Jedi?

Luke Skywalker came to the same conclusion that y'all did.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 19, 2017, 08:25:59 am
I am a critic of this film but those are good points made. Especially the real purpose of the Canto Bight scenes because I felt that whole subplot was mostly unnecessary. I still it was unnecessary or could've been done a different way to get to that point. A lot of my issues with the film are that there were twists just to have twists IMO and that some of those twists could've been executed better.

I was reading another article about the film and how it was about failure and how people handled failure. That's not a bad idea at all.

I do pushback against the top-down position of some of TLJ's defenders in terms of that's why some fans are angry. Almost all the Star Wars films have shown unlikely, 'nobodies' or people from humble origins rise to do great things. Anakin was a slave on a backwater planet. Luke was a farm boy who just wanted to go to the Imperial Academy, on the same backwater planet. Han Solo and Chewie were smugglers. The newer Star Wars films mix in the low-born and the high-born like the older films did. The older films might have had more  aristocrats as leaders though because the prequels took place during the Old Republic and there was as still an Imperial Senate at the start of ANH. But by TFA the Resistance was operating outside of the New Republic, but was led by Leia, a former Senator and aristocrat. While the failure and pain are shared here, Leia is still in command (as evidenced when she gave her subordinates permission to follow Poe), so there isn't a democratization of the Resistance in that way, but we might see more decision sharing and a feeling of a more shared struggle/victory in Episode IX, but that will be hard to translate to audiences if there are no clear, identifiable heroes. I think that would also step on Rey's ascension.

I am also skeptical that it will solely be the 'little people' who win this war. I mean Rey, while from humble origins (allegedly, I'm still skeptical that her parents were really nobodies), is the new Chosen One and we see how Finn has been turned into a Resistance hero and Poe already is a Resistance hero. The resistance will create idols, they need them, just like the Rebellion made legends out of Luke, Leia, and Han. And to some extent, the Old Republic made Anakin out to be a great hero during the Clone Wars. All those people had support from masses of people, but the focus resolved around them and their struggles. Actually all of the Star Wars films have had the main heroes as part of much larger forces that are backing them up and making it easier for them to do their jobs. So the little people have always been involved, even in the Clone Wars (if you count the cloned troopers as little people; I mean they had Numbers and nicknames similar to Finn). In Episode II, Obi-Wan even says that the victory of Geonosis would not have been possible without the Clone army.

The new films might not be as explicit as giving the new heroes as much credit as Lucas did in his films, but I can't see them not putting a lot of the eventual victory of the Resistance over the First Order in Rey's hands. I don't think J.J. Abrams is the risk taker that Rian Johnson turned out to be. He's not just going to subvert things willfully to insure that fans don't get what 'they want' or what he thinks they want. I see Abrams more using the opposite approach. He might go too far into trying to please the fans.

Good point about people ragging harder on Finn than Poe. But some people just want an excuse to go after Finn and Rose. I had my own issues with how Finn and Rose were portrayed and I also felt that the Canto Bight scene was tacked on, but Finn should not be attacked alone for his failure. The failure was spread all around.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vic Vega on December 19, 2017, 08:47:18 am

I do pushback against the top-down position of some of TLJ's defenders in terms of that's why some fans are angry. Almost all the Star Wars films have shown unlikely, 'nobodies' or people from humble origins rise to do great things. Anakin was a slave on a backwater planet. Luke was a farm boy who just wanted to go to the Imperial Academy, on the same backwater planet. Han Solo and Chewie were smugglers. The newer Star Wars films mix in the low-born and the high-born like the older films do. The older films might have had more  aristocrats as leaders though because the prequels took place during the Old Republic and there was as still an Imperial Senate at the start of ANH. But by TFA the Resistance was operating outside of the New Republic, but was led by Leia, a former Senator and aristocrat.

The Star Wars films in a way, pull the same bait and switch that Naruto series did:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
That nobody wasn't a nobody at all. He just didn't know he had a linage

Luke was the son of a Chosen One, Anakin was basically Force Jesus. Leia is twice as special from both her birth linage and her adopted one. Lando Calrissian would have at least a been wealthy merchant prince type at some point.

Han and Chewie are the exceptions to this but the amount of responsibility and influence they have in the rebellion (or even want) is questionable. Less than Leia about the same as Luke (Until Luke goes full Jedi at least) I'd guess.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 19, 2017, 08:59:55 am
Ah, I don't read or watch Naruto, but I see what you're saying and that's what I suspect will happen where Rey is concerned. Even though Rian Johnson did intend for Rey's parents to be nobody, this backlash (especially if it has real teeth) will have Disney going in another direction. And I have to wonder how J.J. Abrams really feels about Johnson coming in and tearing up some of the plot threads he planted in TFA. I personally believe (no proof) that Abrams was intending Snoke and Rey's parents to be more important to the story. Now, he might not have had an inkling of who any of them were, but he probably thought that the subsequent director would respect what he did and build on it. Johnson's creative impulses took in another direction, which was his right. But now with Abrams back I wonder if he'll rein some of that in and we will learn that Ren was lying to Rey. I also see Luke's Force Ghost coming back to help mentor Rey.

I don't think the special parentage or coming from wealth or fame has escaped the new films. Poe is the son of two Rebels, heroes more than likely (I only read about them in the comic Shattered Empire, I don't know if they showed up in other works). Rey is the new Chosen One. There is a question mark about Finn's lineage (which I doubt they will address). All of the new heroes are accomplished or super talented in their own right, similar to the past heroes.

Rian Johnson did a good enough-for some-job of shuffling the deck chairs to make it seem like TLJ is more different from the other films than it really is. Johnson was willing to play with the tropes and expectations a lot more, but he didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Poe's parents:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shara_Bey (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shara_Bey)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kes_Dameron (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kes_Dameron)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 20, 2017, 09:01:05 am
The Holdo maneuver breaks Star Wars

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi (https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: CvilleWakandan on December 20, 2017, 09:29:04 am
I don't think I posted yet, but I liked the movie.

The only part was a little much was Leia returning to the ship, but I've played enough SW games that I can live with it. lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 20, 2017, 09:39:28 am
The Holdo maneuver breaks Star Wars

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi (https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi)

I didn't read all of this, but this guy goes in-depth. Thanks for finding and posting.

Johnson perhaps has created the tactic with the Holdo Maneuver that the Resistance will use to level the playing field with the First Order going forward. Or J.J. Abrams could just ignore this and leave it as one of the cooler and distinctive things about The Last Jedi. As this writer points out that Johnson broke rules, so that sets a precedent that what he established can also be broken or tossed away as easily as he did for aspects of Star Wars lore.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 20, 2017, 11:21:52 am
Rian Johnson on Lando not being in TLJ.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-comments-on-landos-absence-from-star-wars-1821462392 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-comments-on-landos-absence-from-star-wars-1821462392)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2017, 04:04:02 am
http://www.yahoo.com/news/surprise-surprise-alt-claims-credit-222815738.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/surprise-surprise-alt-claims-credit-222815738.html)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-opens-up-about-star-wars-the-last-jedi-hes-not-my-luke-skywalker-a156486 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-opens-up-about-star-wars-the-last-jedi-hes-not-my-luke-skywalker-a156486)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-explains-leias-biggest-moment-and-why-carrie-fishers-scenes-werent-reshot-a156484 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-explains-leias-biggest-moment-and-why-carrie-fishers-scenes-werent-reshot-a156484)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/spoilers-rian-johnson-talks-luke-skywalkers-place-star-wars-last-jedi/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/spoilers-rian-johnson-talks-luke-skywalkers-place-star-wars-last-jedi/)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/rian-johnson-hid-classic-star-wars-reference-last-jedi/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/rian-johnson-hid-classic-star-wars-reference-last-jedi/)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-score-legit/ (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/20/rotten-tomatoes-last-jedi-score-legit/)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-new-star-wars-the-last-jedi-details-reveal-potentially-major-ramifications-for-episode-ix-a156489 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-new-star-wars-the-last-jedi-details-reveal-potentially-major-ramifications-for-episode-ix-a156489)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-here-are-all-the-best-celebrity-cameos-you-definitely-missed-a156424 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-here-are-all-the-best-celebrity-cameos-you-definitely-missed-a156424)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/solo-a-star-wars-story-actor-paul-bettany-confirms-a-lot-more-of-the-film-was-reshot-than-intended-a156487 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/solo-a-star-wars-story-actor-paul-bettany-confirms-a-lot-more-of-the-film-was-reshot-than-intended-a156487)

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-women-bechdel-test (http://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-women-bechdel-test)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-star-wars-apos-fan-155003702.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-star-wars-apos-fan-155003702.html)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/20/one-reason-the-last-jedi-is-a-masterpiece-it-shatters-our-star-wars-nostalgia/#428d3b0c1d4b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/20/one-reason-the-last-jedi-is-a-masterpiece-it-shatters-our-star-wars-nostalgia/#428d3b0c1d4b)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/21/as-the-last-jedi-tops-600m-worldwide-can-star-wars-recover/#3963e199146e (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/21/as-the-last-jedi-tops-600m-worldwide-can-star-wars-recover/#3963e199146e)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/21/no-rey-from-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-still-not-a-mary-sue/)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454743/star-wars-last-jedi-review-lost-space (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454743/star-wars-last-jedi-review-lost-space)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454776/star-wars-failures-how-fix-franchise (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454776/star-wars-failures-how-fix-franchise)

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454564/star-wars-last-jedi-unoriginal-tone-deaf-mess (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454564/star-wars-last-jedi-unoriginal-tone-deaf-mess)

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-star-wars-apos-trolls-145700770.html (http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/apos-star-wars-apos-trolls-145700770.html)

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-moving-beyond-nostalgic-ownership/ (http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-moving-beyond-nostalgic-ownership/)

http://gerryconway.tumblr.com/post/168656065013/star-wars-the-generations-time-to-talk-about (http://gerryconway.tumblr.com/post/168656065013/star-wars-the-generations-time-to-talk-about)

http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/rey-parents-star-wars-last-jedi-populism.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/rey-parents-star-wars-last-jedi-populism.html)

http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/star-wars-prequels-midi-chlorians-defense.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/star-wars-prequels-midi-chlorians-defense.html)

http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-snoke-problem.html (http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-snoke-problem.html)

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/star-wars-politics-violence.html (http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/star-wars-politics-violence.html)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackRodimus on December 21, 2017, 06:11:43 am
I just felt the casino planet bit went on a bit too long.  Beyond that I liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 21, 2017, 06:17:19 am
one of the most interesting aspects of this new trilogy is the fact it hasn't been planned out.

That seems so... odd to me. You would think the big plot points would have been planned out from the beginning, movie to movie.

instead, judging by Rian's comments, they aren't. It is just taken movie by movie and the directors just kinda make it up as they go along.

that is so... odd to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackRodimus on December 21, 2017, 06:25:56 am
one of the most interesting aspects of this new trilogy is the fact it hasn't been planned out.

That seems so... odd to me. You would think the big plot points would have been planned out from the beginning, movie to movie.

instead, judging by Rian's comments, they aren't. It is just taken movie by movie and the directors just kinda make it up as they go along.

that is so... odd to me.

Good point. And from what I read he will be spearheading the next trilogy, so THAT will be planned out. Its just weird THIS one isn't. With the original actors aging you'd think an overarching cohesive story for all three movies would have been made before filming of the TFA started. Its mind boggling this trilogy this way.

Maybe I'm looking too deep into it, but I wonder if Kylo's comments about old things need to die was a meta way of saying we just want to get rid of the gist of the Lucas films and get to the meat of what WE want to do. Maybe not, but otherwise its kinda strangely sloppy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vic Vega on December 21, 2017, 07:51:52 am
The Holdo maneuver breaks Star Wars

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi (https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi)

Hyperspace Jumps are tricky and unlike the New Order/Empire, who can seemingly crank out bigger and bigger Capital Ships without limit, the Rebellion/Republic can't(they tend to be perpetually outnumbered).

You have to figure anything less than a ship of near equal size won't cause the damage that the Raddus did.

Repeated suicide runs would see the Rebellion run out of Capital Ships way before the New Order did and they don't have ships to throw away.

Besides two could play that game. A Crazed Blood Knight Admiral(tm) could wipe out the entire Rebel fleet in a single engagement if they had the Rebs cornered (assuming you could get the crew to play along...).

There is no reason to think that kind of tactic would become wide spread given the drawbacks to it. The Rebellion has way more to lose than the New Order/Empire if that kind of tactic became widespread....
 

   
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2017, 08:21:26 am
one of the most interesting aspects of this new trilogy is the fact it hasn't been planned out.

That seems so... odd to me. You would think the big plot points would have been planned out from the beginning, movie to movie.

instead, judging by Rian's comments, they aren't. It is just taken movie by movie and the directors just kinda make it up as they go along.

that is so... odd to me.

Good point. And from what I read he will be spearheading the next trilogy, so THAT will be planned out. Its just weird THIS one isn't. With the original actors aging you'd think an overarching cohesive story for all three movies would have been made before filming of the TFA started. Its mind boggling this trilogy this way.

Maybe I'm looking too deep into it, but I wonder if Kylo's comments about old things need to die was a meta way of saying we just want to get rid of the gist of the Lucas films and get to the meat of what WE want to do. Maybe not, but otherwise its kinda strangely sloppy.

Looking at some of the pro-TLJ arguments from the press and blogs I get the impression that you're on the money about the meta meaning behind Kylo's words. They are praising Johnson for upending or tearing down Star Wars tropes. However, the danger is slashing and burning is that you destroy so much there's nothing or very little identifiable Star Wars left.

I also agree with you all about how unplanned these new films are. And it is odd that Disney would not have looked at how successful the well-planned MCU is doing, versus the more fly-by-night DCEU, and not working out a cohesive trilogy of films. Perhaps Disney was banking on the Star Wars brand to carry the films, and it is working, even despite the backlash against TLJ. I'm not certain if it's a case of Disney not quite knowing what to do and experimenting with different approaches-the too reverential TFA and then the too deconstructionist TLJ-as they try to find the right balance or formula-or that they want to open up Star Wars to different creative imprints to make it fresher (or have the apperance of freshness) and keep it more viable going forward. The Star Wars universe isn't as varied as the MCU though and even though there are tons of characters and stories in the Star Wars universe (as evidenced by the comics, books, cartoons, and video games) I don't know if there's enough support among the general audience to watch a film say about smugglers that doesn't have Han or Lando in it.

I do think the anthology films are also experiments to see how far they can push the brand, but Disney is slowly doing it by having the first two films set during the original trilogy era. They want to hedge their bets with the seemingly riskier anthology films, but decided to roll the dice with the saga film. Seems it should be the other way around.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripleX on December 21, 2017, 10:11:03 am
Saw it for the third time in imax 3d, been playing the John William's theme loud in my ride for the past week and I STILL have Star Wars fever. I watched all the spoiler reviews, the box office commentary, all the easter egg breakdowns, heard all the complaints and I don't care, I LOVED IT!

Matter fact I'm bout to smoke to Rey and Finn's Millennium Falcon escape from Jakku in The Force Awakens and put up my Christmas lights (better late than never). 

May the Force be with you, always!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2017, 11:47:34 am
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/)

This gives me a thread of hope that we will get a legit villain in Episode IX. And I can see it eventually setting off a ton of theorizing after the hubbub dies down over TLJ.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 21, 2017, 12:03:50 pm
I think it is ridiculous how much "extra" stuff is needed for these two movies honestly

comics, novels, director interviews, games

just to fill in all the holes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2017, 12:19:41 pm
I feel you. I'm a big Star Wars fan and even though I'm lukewarm on TLJ, I still bought some toys, the visual dictionary, and some magazines. And I've been debating buying the soundtrack. I don't think any of this material should be needed to understand the film though. The story that is necessary should be on the screen and the other stuff should just be extra. Perhaps we are reaching a point, or have reached it, where a franchise like Star Wars, with such a big mythology and continuity, needs to have all this extra material. If they've reached that point, maybe in a few years Disney might just reboot the whole thing. I wonder how people would react to that?

I think they might be happy to see the prequels redone, but would raise hell about touching the original trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vic Vega on December 21, 2017, 12:29:41 pm
[url]http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/[/url] ([url]http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-8-snoke-second-apprentice/[/url])

This gives me a thread of hope that we will get a legit villain in Episode IX. And I can see it eventually setting off a ton of theorizing after the hubbub dies down over TLJ.


Eh, I am actually fine with the current status quo.

The New Order are basically the pissed off children of the old guard Imperials who got blown up on the Death Star (both of them) or the ones that got blown up with the Super Star Destroyer. Snoke was the only adult in the room and Kylo just merked him.

Just because the current leaders (Ren and Hux by default) are petty and short sighted doesn't make them any less dangerous. Who knows what havoc they will wreak just to prove they aren't punks?

I'm expecting a slight time skip (2-5 years) and the New Order split into 2 warring factions (Hux's and Ren's) by the next film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 21, 2017, 12:48:23 pm
Good description of Snoke as the only adult in the room. You're right that Hux and Ren are dangerous, but because both are very not ready for prime time their reign of terror won't last long. Palpatine, Tarkin, the old Imperials, were far more methodical and felt really dangerous (granted I'm still looking at it from a nostalgia angle, but I still think they hold up as legit villains). I think Johnson had to pretty much wipe out the Resistance, reduce their numbers so much to make the First Order credible villains. And even in TLJ they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. I can see Hux plotting against Ren under the table but not openly challenging him, so I'm skeptical that Hux would form a competing faction. Ren put a stop to that when he force choked the crap out of Hux in TLJ.

I hope they use the opportunity to feature the Knights of Ren, perhaps as Kylo Ren's enforcers, and also an administrator, like a Moff, to give a hint of how the First Order is run.

I would like this other apprentice to show up and be more of a legit threat. Perhaps even a Sith Lord. Make the character a female Sith, which would be a first in live action, and in keeping with the female-centric nature of the sequels. As it stands, I don't see how or why Ren would return to the dark side (and I can't see Disney not building on his relationship with Rey, since it's Abrams coming back and he's not the arsonist that Johnson turned out to be).

Like you I think there will be a time jump, though I'm thinking more like two-three years.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripleX on December 21, 2017, 05:35:11 pm
I want Rey to turn dark and Kylo as a good guy. She'd make a great villain, she's more determined and powerful than him. He's had Luke and Leia as influences on his mighty Skywalker blood and been conflicted from the start.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Knights of Ren were Luke's Padawans that Kylo didn't kill. It's not like the Rule of Two is still in effect, Kylo Ren can have a squad of Sith. He'll need help challenging the burgeoning Jedi Order. If I were Hux I'd learn the ways of the Force before attempting a coup and by tradition murder my master. He's got to be sick of getting assaulted and embarrassed by Sith.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 22, 2017, 04:28:33 am
I want Rey to turn dark and Kylo as a good guy. She'd make a great villain, she's more determined and powerful than him. He's had Luke and Leia as influences on his mighty Skywalker blood and been conflicted from the start.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Knights of Ren were Luke's Padawans that Kylo didn't kill. It's not like the Rule of Two is still in effect, Kylo Ren can have a squad of Sith. He'll need help challenging the burgeoning Jedi Order. If I were Hux I'd learn the ways of the Force before attempting a coup and by tradition murder my master. He's got to be sick of getting assaulted and embarrassed by Sith.

I was so hoping in TLJ that Rey would join Ren. Or have Rey go dark while Ren returned to the light. That would have been really bold and would've helped me forgive some of my other issues with the film. But I can't see Disney really having Rey go dark. I think they are afraid of what message that would send and how that would impact the merchandising. That being said, they market the heck out of Vader, whose face has been on just about everything. But the idea of a Darth Rey might be too much. She's a feminist icon at this point and an inspiration for young girls (and others) and I can't see them crapping on that. They have been crapping on the older heroes to big up the newer ones, and I can't see them deconstructing Rey....just yet. But wait another 10-20 years.

It hasn't been established that the Knights of Ren are Luke's former students. That's the speculation out there, and Ren did mention he took several students with him. The 'flashback' in TFA, from what I recall, already showed them fully formed, and doesn't jibe with the flashbacks in TLJ. I've seen speculation that the image of the Knights of Ren in TFA might not have been a flashback but was a future event.

Snoke or Ren aren't Sith, and I'm assuming the Knights of Ren aren't Sith either. So yeah, the Rule of Two wouldn't apply. And though they haven't went into detail about it, I think the new canon hasn't discounted the idea that there were more Sith out there before the Rule of Two reduced their numbers. For me, the rule alone doesn't define who is Sith, though that's just for me. I like it when the EU would touch on that, and you would have the pre-Darth Bane Sith armies, or the future One Sith led by Darth Krayt. Or the Lost Tribe of Sith. There's a lot of interesting ways the Sith can be expanded. Though the sequel films thus far want to put the Sith to the side, but Snoke and Ren aren't that different in goals or even appearance than previous Sith to really separate them out and make me feel that they are a different breed of dark side Force users.

I agree that Hux should learn the ways of the Force, but I don't know what he can really do to stop Ren. In ANH Tarkin was able to boss Vader around, however, he was only able to do that because he had the Emperor's favor. Hux should be looking for weaknesses, blindspots in the Force, or even recruiting his own Force sensitives, but if Snoke poorly trained Ren who knows how much knowledge of the Sith or other dark side Force users is out there for Hux to be able to train them? On the light side, Luke had given up and it seemed that all the Jedi knowledge left was in those books that Rey took. I think TLJ missed out on showing us either Jedi or Sith holocrons for learning tools.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 22, 2017, 05:25:00 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/psa-the-new-star-wars-trilogy-is-being-made-up-as-they-go-theres-no-marvel-master-plan-a156493 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/psa-the-new-star-wars-trilogy-is-being-made-up-as-they-go-theres-no-marvel-master-plan-a156493)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/#e5a46c7355c1 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/last-jedi-daily-grosses-are-swiftly-collapsing-the-worst-holds-of-all-9-star-wars-movies/#e5a46c7355c1)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/does-finn-still-love-rey-182400490.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/does-finn-still-love-rey-182400490.html)

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/last-jedi-kelly-marie-tran-180040921.html (http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/last-jedi-kelly-marie-tran-180040921.html)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-backlash-grow/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-backlash-grow/)

http://www.tor.com/2017/12/21/why-canto-bight-is-vital-to-the-last-jedi/ (http://www.tor.com/2017/12/21/why-canto-bight-is-vital-to-the-last-jedi/)

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/the-last-jedis-biggest-storytelling-innovation/548609/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/12/the-last-jedis-biggest-storytelling-innovation/548609/)

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-run-time-too-long-cut-canto-bight (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-run-time-too-long-cut-canto-bight)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/much-money-did-apos-last-173002347.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/much-money-did-apos-last-173002347.html)

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-162287/ (http://www.indiewire.com/2015/12/hyper-tokenism-the-force-awakens-while-the-black-man-sleeps-162287/)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/rian-johnson-responds-extreme-last-182326914.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/rian-johnson-responds-extreme-last-182326914.html)

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/22/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-reaction/5/ (http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/22/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-reaction/5/)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fans-reacted-to-the-empire-strikes-back-in-19-1821551259 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fans-reacted-to-the-empire-strikes-back-in-19-1821551259)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/22/star-wars-box-office-last-jedi-is-2nd-fastest-grosser-ever-behind-force-awakens/#58104d87cf44 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/22/star-wars-box-office-last-jedi-is-2nd-fastest-grosser-ever-behind-force-awakens/#58104d87cf44)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/no-santa-isnt-going-to-suddenly-turn-the-last-jedi-into-a-box-office-miracle/#79201ea53d9b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/22/no-santa-isnt-going-to-suddenly-turn-the-last-jedi-into-a-box-office-miracle/#79201ea53d9b)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/the-audience-strikes-back-last-jedis-77-fri-to-fri-plunge-is-worst-ever-for-a-star-wars-pic/#288bff8957fa (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/the-audience-strikes-back-last-jedis-77-fri-to-fri-plunge-is-worst-ever-for-a-star-wars-pic/#288bff8957fa)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/fandom-menace-why-youre-still-ok-if-you-dislike-the-last-jedi-and-why-it-matters-to-disney/#f0d96c229be8 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/23/fandom-menace-why-youre-still-ok-if-you-dislike-the-last-jedi-and-why-it-matters-to-disney/#f0d96c229be8)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/23/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-plunges-77-still-tops-300m/#7a7e4d1f3f0d (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/23/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-plunges-77-still-tops-300m/#7a7e4d1f3f0d)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/23/how-the-force-awakens-set-up-the-last-jedi-for-disappointment/#7bb1b51c2c6d (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/23/how-the-force-awakens-set-up-the-last-jedi-for-disappointment/#7bb1b51c2c6d)

http://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a (http://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-proved-the-heros-journey-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/#30e8c8f14311 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/19/the-last-jedi-proved-the-heros-journey-isnt-all-its-cracked-up-to-be/#30e8c8f14311)

http://screenrant.com/last-jedi-biggest-plot-holes-make-no-sense-star-wars/ (http://screenrant.com/last-jedi-biggest-plot-holes-make-no-sense-star-wars/)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/where-the-last-jedis-grosses-would-be-if-it-performed-like-a-normal-star-wars-movie/#5df957da7057 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/where-the-last-jedis-grosses-would-be-if-it-performed-like-a-normal-star-wars-movie/#5df957da7057)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/16/why-the-star-wars-movies-keep-getting-longer-and-duller/#4c707ebc54d0 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/16/why-the-star-wars-movies-keep-getting-longer-and-duller/#4c707ebc54d0)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/24/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-drops-69-tops-100m-losers-club/#5eab24d6dc05 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/24/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-drops-69-tops-100m-losers-club/#5eab24d6dc05)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/with-69-2nd-weekend-decline-last-jedi-drops-further-into-the-star-wars-cellar/#5095d93f66bc (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/24/with-69-2nd-weekend-decline-last-jedi-drops-further-into-the-star-wars-cellar/#5095d93f66bc)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/25/the-last-jedis-gargantuan-151m-2nd-weekend-plunge-is-an-epic-and-hollywood-choke/#345ef57418d8 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/25/the-last-jedis-gargantuan-151m-2nd-weekend-plunge-is-an-epic-and-hollywood-choke/#345ef57418d8)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/25/can-star-wars-recover-from-last-jedis-rave-reviews-and-huge-grosses/#76e0e7d17d2e (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/25/can-star-wars-recover-from-last-jedis-rave-reviews-and-huge-grosses/#76e0e7d17d2e)


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2017, 04:29:46 am
Not sure of where to put this but I thought this was pretty neat:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-fan-film-puts-a-bit-more-action-into-the-fight-bet-1821555203 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/this-fan-film-puts-a-bit-more-action-into-the-fight-bet-1821555203)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2017, 02:05:01 pm
http://io9.gizmodo.com/rip-to-alfie-curtis-who-played-mos-eisley-cantinas-mos-1821582672 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/rip-to-alfie-curtis-who-played-mos-eisley-cantinas-mos-1821582672)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2017, 02:11:14 pm
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-facebook-defends-rose-tico/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-facebook-defends-rose-tico/)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/26/star-wars-the-last-jedi-scores-77th-biggest-4-day-box-office-weekend-ever/#78b1917d572a (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/26/star-wars-the-last-jedi-scores-77th-biggest-4-day-box-office-weekend-ever/#78b1917d572a)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2017/12/26/the-reaction-in-japan-to-the-last-jedi-has-been-decidedly-mixed/#65927de55a29 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2017/12/26/the-reaction-in-japan-to-the-last-jedi-has-been-decidedly-mixed/#65927de55a29)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/26/box-office-last-jedi-wonder-woman-beauty-and-the-beast-now-2017s-biggest-hits/#5b03017329f6 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/26/box-office-last-jedi-wonder-woman-beauty-and-the-beast-now-2017s-biggest-hits/#5b03017329f6)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2017, 02:26:37 pm
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_PLxzm6uJQ#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 26, 2017, 08:47:24 pm
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-regrets-voicing-his-criticisms-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi-praises-director-rian-johnson-a156581 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/mark-hamill-regrets-voicing-his-criticisms-of-star-wars-the-last-jedi-praises-director-rian-johnson-a156581)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/27/as-the-last-jedi-tops-800m-is-star-wars-beyond-saving/#23df73696263 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/27/as-the-last-jedi-tops-800m-is-star-wars-beyond-saving/#23df73696263)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nQ1ro6Y3UE#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 27, 2017, 05:02:25 am
69% drop is kind of fierce. It did have some a ton of competition though so maybe not as bad as it looks at the surface.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 27, 2017, 05:23:32 am
Yeah, it's not good, however I've seen dueling takes on what the box office drop means. This movie is making tons of money and will not flop, but I think it's a battle of perception right now. Will TLJ make a ton of money yet be perceived to be a 'disappointment' or 'failure' where fans are concerned? It reminds me of Star Trek Into Darkness which made more money than any Trek film (though that was based a lot on a very good international box office), yet it left fans (in the US) disenchanted and that affected Star Trek Beyond (along with a poor marketing campaign from Paramount) which underperformed at the box office. Paramount and Bad Robot, with Into Darkness, had squeezed out the excitement generated by Star Trek 2009. There's other unique extenuating circumstances with Trek (CBS's lawsuit against the fan film Axanar and its new restrictive fan film guidelines right before Beyond came out, a basically non-existent celebration of Trek's 50th anniversary on the year Beyond came out that I think also didn't generate enthusiasm among fans). Disney/Star Wars marketing is too powerful and omnipresent to ever make those mistakes IMO.

But that being said, the media narrative (does Disney tacitly approve of it?) that 'old' fans are a problem, or that the criticism of TLJ is all from alt-right bigots and sexists, or that if you don't like TLJ then it's not really for you (old fans), it's for all these supposed new fans, etc., etc., it feels a bit condescending and might turn off old fans in larger numbers. While Beyond sought to self-correct from the mistakes of Into Darkness, a lot of goodwill among old fans had been lost by that point and a good deal of the new 'fans' that liked Trek 2009 IMO turned out to just be more casual moviegoers who liked a good sci-fi/action film and not new Trek fans who were into the franchise. That is what I think is going to happen to Star Wars eventually. Because if you crap on the old characters and tell the old fans that Star Wars is not 'yours' anymore and to get over it, adapt or die, then some old fans are just going to move on and take all their money with them. And that leaves Star Wars as just another big-budget sci-fi action franchise, that might be little different than Avatar, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.

Overall, despite how sometimes the suits have mishandled Trek or upset fans, I think in universe the Trek movies and shows have mostly showed respect and deference to Kirk's crew in a way the Star Wars sequels have not. They seem to delight in casting the original heroes in a bad light-perhaps because they think its gritty, it's 'real', and that it's the best way to get 'drama', but it feels lazy to me and also pisses off people who followed those characters since childhood. Kirk and company weren't perfect (check Star Trek VI, their swan song), but they were still at heart heroic. The sequels put a lot more rocks on the backs of the original heroes (esp. Han and Luke) than they needed to.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 27, 2017, 02:08:52 pm
http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/27/star-wars-the-last-jedi-john-boyega-responds-to-backlash/ (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/27/star-wars-the-last-jedi-john-boyega-responds-to-backlash/)

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-moving-beyond-nostalgic-ownership/#more-33338 (http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/18/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-moving-beyond-nostalgic-ownership/#more-33338)

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/21/breaking-down-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#more-33345 (http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2017/12/21/breaking-down-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#more-33345)

http://blacknerdproblems.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rebel-yell-fans-rebel-scum/ (http://blacknerdproblems.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rebel-yell-fans-rebel-scum/)

http://geektyrant.com/news/amc-theaters-posted-a-warning-regarding-sound-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi (http://geektyrant.com/news/amc-theaters-posted-a-warning-regarding-sound-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 27, 2017, 02:53:33 pm
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/256629/star-wars-the-25-best-female-characters (http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/256629/star-wars-the-25-best-female-characters)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2017, 05:26:26 am
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-dips-at-christmas-box-office-1070314 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-dips-at-christmas-box-office-1070314)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-new-trilogy-1068535 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-new-trilogy-1068535)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-need-a-breakdown-1068533 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-need-a-breakdown-1068533)

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-20171217-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-20171217-story.html)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 28, 2017, 05:38:21 am
I wonder if disney's plan to attract a new audience using Rey (and lesser extent Finn) worked at all.

SW pretty much had the straight white male demographic on lockdown. Which is why casting the a white chick and a black dude (and the third being Latino? of some kind idk what Issac is lol) was kind of weird. Especially when it then systematically regressed/destroyed/changed (depending on how you look at it) Han and Luke's characters

Especially since Rey isn't exactly a "sex icon" either.

So there goal had to be the risk angering this demographic in hopes of dragging in others.

I dont "feel" like it worked with Blacks at all. I "think" Finn angered them more than brought them into star wars. And the fact Lando is MIA doesn't help either.

no idea about the Katniss crowd though
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2017, 08:57:20 am
I donít think the casting of the new Star Wars heroes was weird. Disney was looking to expand the audience for Star Wars. They saw that series like Fast and Furious, with nowhere near the pop culture dominance of Star Wars, is a billion-dollar franchise in part because of its diverse cast. And with diversity and inclusion being the watchwords in Hollywood right now, and also some vocal online advocates of diversity, it was good business to make Star Wars more diverse. I think the issue is how they went about it.

Disney/Kathleen Kennedy has been obtuse in how theyíve handled this diversity, giving ammunition to right-leaning critics who criticize diversity and multiculturalism. The new films have Rey who is awesome, just because, and if you put that out, youíre a misogynist. There's not much to the Rey character (not Daisy Ridley's fault) except that she is a female. And TLJ took away her major character issue, her search for her parents. It didn't remove her overall search for identity and she still has the mission now to save the Resistance/Rebellion, but that's not that different than from what we've seen before with Luke and far less dramatically interesting than what Luke was working with. Though it likely fits the themes of female empowerment and a woman finding her voice. How does that factor into the whole saga is anyone's guess. Because once Rey finds that voice what happens then? Her character wasn't well-conceived, just like the other new heroes. Who is Poe exactly? They made him a rash, hothead in TLJ but why is he fighting for the Resistance? Why is he so rash? And we have gotten more of Finn's motivations, but still no real backstory (even of his time in the First Order) and he's a checklist of stereotypes so much it makes his character unappealing. (To be fair, there are comics and books that provide some information on these characters, but that's a cop out to me if a movie has to rely on ancillary material to tell the story we should be seeing on screen or hearing in the dialogue.) I mean TLJ actually did a good job with Rose. We saw her sister, we got a little of her backstory, and we know why she's fighting. So it's not impossible to do these things in a Star Wars film. I think the problems stem from TFA not really having an idea of who these characters were, and were more concerned with what they were (in terms of race/ethnicity/gender) and that Abrams thought the future directors would just figure it out. Rian Johnson really didn't want to so he just started upsetting the apple cart. Where Disney lucked up is that the casting is good and Boyega in particular has chemistry with Oscar Isaacs and Daisy Ridley. Based on chemistry alone, Finn should be the center of the new sequels.

I think Disney was eager to get the headlines about how progressive and feminist Rey was and that that would inoculate them against any white male backlash. With TFA I think they were proven right, when it came to box office. The hubbub about Finn before TFA died down and was rightly made to look foolish and perhaps Disney thought they could ridicule all future critics, or that the critics would expose themselves as foolish. Little attention was paid to the criticism of the Finn character after the film came out. There didnít appear to be much of a groundswell of that criticism (not enough I suppose to get Disneyís attention, and itís not like Disney or the media is all that attuned to discussions about racial depictions), but it was around on the internet.

I think Disney thought that white males were a captive audience, that they had reached peak saturation with them and were looking to expand by capturing every other demographic group. While the sequel films have been noticeably more colorful, white characters, particularly white females remain at the center, so itís not really a change in the racial hierarchy, it is a changing of the guard where gender is concerned, and some white males arenít having that.

The Last Jedi triggered some white male backlash (but itís not only white males who have issues with this film-on You Tube there are some black men, some white women, and at least one Asian female reviewer I watched who all had issues with TLJ). I do suspect that a lot of criticism for TLJ is from alt-right corners, but the media pushback that all of the filmís critics are from those corners is not helping the reputation of the movie nor has it silenced the people who are criticizing the film. It's likely emboldened those critics, as noted by the dropping fan score on Rotten Tomatoes. Itís painting the criticizers with a broad brush. And if itís not the alt-right thatís the cause, itís Ďold fansí (which also overlaps with the alt-right charges). And these Ďold fansí are being condescended to in the media, and online, that they have to Ďlet goí and they shouldnít expect Ďfan serviceí and so forth. I donít think the media response has been well handled for this film. I think Hollywood needed Star Wars to be a massive hit because the industry needed it so they are pulling out all the stops to save the reputation of TLJ and attempt to dismiss the criticisms.

I donít know what the numbers of black fans of Star Wars is. It seems like there has been a sizable number of black fans over the years-as for the diehard fans-donít know about that number. That being said, Star Wars hasnít been the most welcoming place for black fans if those black fans were concerned about representation. And Finn is a step backward when it comes to representation so I can see why many black folks arenít cheering for this new round of films. At least you had veteran black actors like Billy Dee Williams and Samuel L. Jackson in the previous films, actors who had built up a reputation among the black community in the US. John Boyega, no fault of his, hasnít done that. Perhaps Star Wars, while looking internationally, was also just expecting blacks to jump at any black person that was prominently featured in a Star Wars movie, that didnít turn out to be the case. No fault again of Boyegaís. But when you pick a relative unknown actor, from another country, and then saddle him with a stereotype-plagued character, that doesnít enthuse black audiences-outside of some black nerds who I suspect were just hungry for any representation in Star Wars and identified with Finn. Finn came along in some Ďwokeí times and that might not be going down well for black audiences. Plus, not having Lando in the new films, and also crapping on the original heroes likely pissed off some black fans who overlapped into the Ďold faní category.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2017, 09:14:15 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/28/star-wars-is-saved-as-the-last-jedi-catches-up-with-jurassic-world/#25bc0c865349 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/28/star-wars-is-saved-as-the-last-jedi-catches-up-with-jurassic-world/#25bc0c865349)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/28/mark-hamill-shouldnt-have-to-apologise-for-being-honest/#2b3dcfd23af8 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2017/12/28/mark-hamill-shouldnt-have-to-apologise-for-being-honest/#2b3dcfd23af8)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-around-the-world-where-its-hot-where-its-not/#5a60a56f2154 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-around-the-world-where-its-hot-where-its-not/#5a60a56f2154)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 29, 2017, 05:34:33 am
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2017/12/last-jedi-first-properly-feminist-star-wars (http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2017/12/last-jedi-first-properly-feminist-star-wars)

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2017/12/backlash-against-last-jedi-bizarrely-familiar-and-irrational (http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2017/12/backlash-against-last-jedi-bizarrely-familiar-and-irrational)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/29/star-wars-the-last-jedi-did-one-thing-so-much-better-than-game-of-thrones/#4fea89dd4bea (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/29/star-wars-the-last-jedi-did-one-thing-so-much-better-than-game-of-thrones/#4fea89dd4bea)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-george-lucas-admitted-he-went-far-phantom-menace-screening-1070589 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-george-lucas-admitted-he-went-far-phantom-menace-screening-1070589)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-history-goes-unanswered-1070225 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-history-goes-unanswered-1070225)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-franchise-crosses-4-billion-eclipsing-disneys-lucasfilm-price-1070624 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-franchise-crosses-4-billion-eclipsing-disneys-lucasfilm-price-1070624)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/29/why-the-last-jedi-backlash-wont-hurt-star-wars-episode-ix/#7a3a27f13629 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/29/why-the-last-jedi-backlash-wont-hurt-star-wars-episode-ix/#7a3a27f13629)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/29/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-tops-900m-as-jumanji-and-pitch-perfect-3-rock-out/#159deec852bb (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/29/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-tops-900m-as-jumanji-and-pitch-perfect-3-rock-out/#159deec852bb)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/29/last-jedis-china-ticket-presales-are-running-slow-indicating-a-weak-50m-is-possible/#77cf0f0355f5 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/29/last-jedis-china-ticket-presales-are-running-slow-indicating-a-weak-50m-is-possible/#77cf0f0355f5)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/30/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-2nd-best-3rd-friday-drop-ever-for-100m-opener/#3a8ce30a77e2 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/30/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-2nd-best-3rd-friday-drop-ever-for-100m-opener/#3a8ce30a77e2)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-empire-strikes-back-faith-religion/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-empire-strikes-back-faith-religion/)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 29, 2017, 09:30:16 am
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AWgzNfzRCk#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 30, 2017, 07:40:16 am
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 30, 2017, 09:45:18 am
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!

There are story elements that are definitely showing up on "Everything Wrong With" or HISHE, but I think the biggest is they don't like Luke's story. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 30, 2017, 10:51:00 am
My general reactions:  (major spoilers)
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Luke: I suppose it was kind of expected that he'd end up being a reluctant teacher to Rey.  I wanted to see a lot more teaching sequences, though, seems like there wasn't that much, compared to Luke's experiences with Ben Kenobi and Yoda.
I didn't anticipate that Luke was doing a big fakeout in the climax.  It was intriguing, for sure.  I didn't know that Jedi illusion casting was that deep; in looking back at what happened, I'm surprised that droids (Threepio) were fooled by this as well, though I suppose Luke's wink was a semi-giveaway that something else was at work.  For this to be Luke's "final" (in body) appearance, ah well.  I would have appreciated him being portrayed in the super-acrobatic way that CGI and stunts allow nowadays, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Leia: At last, we got to see Leia exhibit some Jedi powers besides the telepathic bond with Luke.  I was glad to see her do a lot more plot-wise, though I was shocked to see her taken out of the story early on.

Finn: This film kind of continues Finn's arc of being an amiable bumbler, to me.  I don't know if the intent is to continue to portray him as an everyman who is kind of overwhelmed by the circumstances around him, or.. something else?  Heh.  I think the exchange with Rose could have been handled in another way rather than him getting tasered, lol.  Ah, well.  With the fight against Captain Phasma, I wish that it had lasted longer and ended in a more "substantive" way for me.  The angle of him falling and landing on a floating skiff then sneak-bashing Phasma, eh.. lol.. I was wanting Finn to have a more "traditional" victory against the bad guys.  (On a side note, Phasma has kind of become Boba Fett to me, where the visual image is promoted as this big deal character but on-screen, doesn't really get to do a heck of a lot).  I get that this is supposed to mark Finn's final choice to really "join" the Rebellion, but then his near-death experience against the Empire's super-cannon stumbles into the "noble self-sacrificing black guy" trope; at least now he's at least portrayed as having made baby steps into having a relationship with a woman (of color) who is not Rey.  Hopefully the writer(s) will have a platonic bond between Finn and Rey and deepen the relationship with Rose.

Poe: I enjoyed Poe's general portrayal, I don't think you've had this kind of tension in previous films regarding the policies and agendas of members of the rebellion.  It was kind of Star Trek-ish in the past were there was a general lack of conflict. So this was a nice turn of events.

Rey: I was surprised by the depth of the cross-galactic telepathy, and how Rey was able to see landscapes and not just the "mind" of the person she's in contact with.  I'm still perplexed at what she was supposed to have seen in the cave (an update of Luke's cave wandering in Empire?).

Kylo: Whoo-boy, wow.  I'm glad he wasn't enough of a maniac to fire on his mother, but clearly he was still enough of a maniac to go through with the assaults on the rebel groups in general.  I still don't know what the Knights of Ren are supposedly all about, anyway-- there's no backstory on just how Ben was able to be sought out by Snoke and how he was gradually corrupted.  The "reveal" on his fateful confrontation with Luke was an interesting twist.  I enjoyed the fight sequence against the Crimson guards.

DJ:  I'm not sure what Benicio's thief/hacker added besides the eventual betrayal.  But I won't complain about his presence.  The way that he "conveniently" was able to escape the jail was kind of a subtle nod that everything about this guy wasn't on the up and up.

I'm still wondering where all this is going, in a way.  Emperor Snoke is dead, and so I guess Kylo has declared himself the supreme leader of the New Order.  The rebellion is reduced to whoever fits on the Falcon ship, now, so what systems can they run to?  How widespread is the New Order Empire this time around?  What would it really take to remove all their elements and restore a new republic?  Seems like this would take way more than one more movie.

Chewie:  I liked his presence in the film but I wanted to be more of it.  I wanted to see him have some extended conversations (growling aside) with Luke and hopefully Leia, about Han.  I wasn't overly interested in seeing him as the fuzzy sidekick character anymore.  I'd like the next film to have him in more of an out-front leader role.  Why not? He's already been through any number of political/war conflicts already.  What is the Wookie culture response to the New Order?

Still missing:
Lando- we need to see his take on Han's passing, as well as Luke and whatever Leia's post-Carrie Fisher fate is.  Did he become a family man? Did he become an administrator again?  Is he in exile post-New Order?

Sex:  do people still, you know, hook up, in this universe?

Religion:  Is the Jedi religion the only one out there? Is that the only path to have certain metahuman powers?  What about other belief systems and technological-biological connections that are considered a part of worship or rituals?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 30, 2017, 11:48:09 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/lukethompson/2017/12/21/why-arent-star-wars-toys-selling-as-well-this-year/#2fb6bd0754e5 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/lukethompson/2017/12/21/why-arent-star-wars-toys-selling-as-well-this-year/#2fb6bd0754e5)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-toy-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-toy-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/18/is-last-jedi-doomed-to-be-the-iron-man-3-of-star-wars/#6dc563d73400 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/18/is-last-jedi-doomed-to-be-the-iron-man-3-of-star-wars/#6dc563d73400)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/30/last-jedis-china-presales-are-accelerating-rogue-ones-69m-total-or-higher-now-within-reach/#3dc828837100 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/30/last-jedis-china-presales-are-accelerating-rogue-ones-69m-total-or-higher-now-within-reach/#3dc828837100)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/30/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-2nd-best-3rd-friday-drop-ever-for-100m-opener/#2d28d38377e2 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/30/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-2nd-best-3rd-friday-drop-ever-for-100m-opener/#2d28d38377e2)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/30/the-5-biggest-problems-with-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#2209d3c05229 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/12/30/the-5-biggest-problems-with-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#2209d3c05229)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 30, 2017, 11:54:48 am
I finally saw the movie yesterday.  I enjoyed it.  It was a lot more intriguing than I anticipated.


So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.

Next film:  Lots more Chewbacca!


There are story elements that are definitely showing up on "Everything Wrong With" or HISHE, but I think the biggest is they don't like Luke's story.

I've been listening to some commentary on You Tube and reading various articles. I agree with Kip, that the main issue is how Luke is depicted and his story, with some not liking how he bows out of the franchise. There's also criticism of the Canto Bight sequence. There is criticism of Leia's flying through space. Some feel that DJ was unnecessary and that Snoke and Phasma was wasted. Some felt there was too much humor in the film. Some have issues with the Holdo/Poe relationship and question why she didn't just tell him her plan. Some people didn't like Rose or felt she was also an unnecessary character. Some don't like some of the swerves, like Rey's parents being 'nobodies'.

There are some who feel that the film was anti-male, prof-feminist. Some felt that the film was taking a swipe at capitalism or the rich (ex. Canto Bight sequence). I'm sure there's more criticisms but those are some that I've picked up on.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 30, 2017, 11:55:49 am

So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.


Luke.

He was the hero of the OT and people have been waiting decades to see him at his peak

Instead we got a broken old man who momentarily decided to off his nephew and after he f*cked up he ran off to an island while his f*ck up got stronger and joined space nazis that slaughtered countless people and his friends

And when he finally decided to help,  we dont even get a proper saber fight or see how powerful he is. He displays a new power and dies

Plus the people in charge teased snokes origij then explained nothing (which is ludicrous and biggest issue with the movie imo) and teased reys lineage (whuch was nothing) for 3 years lol.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hypestyle on December 30, 2017, 11:59:28 am
Add Dwayne Johnson to the franchise.

Not kidding.

Why not?  Popular, charismatic, would make a great tough-guy hero for the new adventures.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 30, 2017, 12:12:01 pm

So what is the backlash all about?  I'm not understanding.


Luke.

He was the hero of the OT and people have been waiting decades to see him at his peak

Instead we got a broken old man who momentarily decided to off his nephew and after he f*cked up he ran off to an island while his f*ck up got stronger and joined space nazis that slaughtered countless people and his friends

And when he finally decided to help,  we dont even get a proper saber fight or see how powerful he is. He displays a new power and dies

Plus the people in charge teased snokes origij then explained nothing (which is ludicrous and biggest issue with the movie imo) and teased reys lineage (whuch was nothing) for 3 years lol.

Yes, and some of the pushback to fan disappointment over Luke is that this is a not for 'old' fans, or just for 'old fans,' which annoys me. That TLJ is a new, fresh, and bold direction for Star Wars. And that 'fan service' is boring and holds the franchise back, while subverting expectations in TLJ put the franchise on firmer footing. If you create a precedence of not giving fans what they want, why will fans continue to stick around? Some subverting was fine, but as I said before Johnson did it far too much. Further, I have to wonder if he just didn't do that so he wouldn't have to deal with where Abrams left the franchise after TFA. Some of the issues in TLJ are the result of the poor story and setup from TFA. It also rankles that the pushback is largely saying is that if you didn't like the film it's your problem, you are the problem (whether because you are a bigot, a sexist, Alt-Right, a troll, or are too old and too hung up on the EU or your expectations of how the story should go). It doesn't take enough account into whether TLJ was actually a good story, does it work as a good film, and was it true to the characters as they were presented in the original film. Those criticisms are ignored or sweep in with the likely racist-sexist, Alt-Right critiques.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 30, 2017, 12:21:29 pm
Add Dwayne Johnson to the franchise.

Not kidding.

Why not?  Popular, charismatic, would make a great tough-guy hero for the new adventures.

I don't think the new Star Wars wants a tough-guy hero at least for this sequel trilogy. They've deconstructed both Han and Luke. Finn is a bumbler, as you noted, who had to be dragged along by Rose at points in TLJ (previously he had been taken down by Rey in TFA, and by Rose in TLJ), and Poe had to be checked by Admiral Holdo. Both Hux and Ren are immature man-children. Compare that to how Rey, Holdo, Rose, and Leia have been portrayed in comparison to the men. The one female character that has gotten short shrift is Phasma. I'm surprised by that. I guess Johnson didn't have her kill Finn out of fear of the racial implications. Plus a live coon character has its uses to them. Rogue One did a better balancing act between male and female characters, while still keeping Jyn Erso as the central character. Saw Gerrera was crazy and did do the 'self-sacrifice' thing, but his made less sense than Finn's.

The Rock isn't a complete Alpha in some of his films. I do think they soften his characters in ways that wouldn't have happened in the '80s, though I also think that plays to Rock's strengths. Because he does have some comedic chops and his a likable presence, I still don't think Star Wars can handle the Alpha vibe that he does possess. The Rock would easily dominate all the sequel heroes in terms of his stage presence and charisma. It would be cool if he were a badass Mandalorian warrior or something, but that would not happen in the sequel trilogy. Perhaps a side story if they ever do that rumored Boba Fett anthology film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 30, 2017, 03:58:50 pm
Alright, finally saw it a second time. wanted to see it twice before really giving detailed thoughts on things.

I will say, I can see why casuals/new fans might be loving this movie. or anyone I suppose. It was a really pretty movie, had some really great moments and music. It was extremely well made. A lot of my problems with the movie have more to do with the "semi hardcore" fan stance more than anything. I still think it is one of the better Star Wars films... but that might say more about the fact that a lot of the star wars films are kinda meh.

I think Kylo was extremely well done... it is interesting having a villain that isnt "finished" yet and watching him evolve. I thought Rey was fine-ish.. she had some really good moments although I have my issues with the character. The fight against the red guard dudes was really cool. Yoda was cool.

For the quick nick pick side before we get heavy... the porgs were stupid, chewie was wasted, r2d2 was wasted, timeline was weird (and I don't think Carrie Fischer can act at all, not to speak ill of the dead), and I wish they didn't make Hux into some kind of a mini joke at the beginning.

My 100% biggest issue with this whole movie is Snoke. Not even just the fact that Abrams, Kennedy, Rian and Co acted like hsi origin was this huge mystery we would figure out and then didnt... but f*ck he is soooooooooooo important and such a huge plot issue to this universe. and he was actually really really really freaking cool and well acted and well designed.

How in this galaxy did a dark side user THIS powerful (he may have been the strongest force user we've seen on the big screen) avoid any Jedi or Palpatine detection all these years? We know there are other dark users than the Palpatine line sith from the cartoons but yeesh... this is a whole other beast of strength. And as Luke stated, that I didn't catch the first viewing... Snoke was in Kylo's brain trying to turn him from the beginning. He felt him when he had his "imma murder my nephew" moment.

So you have a ridiculously powerful dark side user (that acts just like a Sith but apparently isn't lol? wut?) who was able to turn a Skywalker right under THE jedi masters nose... and luke knew who he was and what he was trying to do... and we know nothign about him whatsover? Its like Abrams was basically tasked with doing a remake/update of New Hope and copied it to a tee and just didn't bother to think any of this through and Rian didn't want any part of it and moved on.

I know some people are like "well you don't have to know all the backstory!" but for someone this powerful I feel you did. if you are gonna have an extended universe you gotta play by those rules.

But that kinda leads to one of my big problems with Luke. Luke knew Snoke existed. Knew what he was trying to do.... why didn't he try and go murder snoke instead of murder his nephew lol?

I just really wanted to see a bad ass Luke. In a flashback or something. Yes the force projection was a damn cool power feat but... I just wanted to see the dude cut some peopel down with a saber. Is that really too much to ask lol? I generally liked a lot of his jedi thoughts about Balance and how there is always the balance and how the jedi caused a lot of the problems (or let them happen accidentally). I don't know how you do THAT type of ending though without the force projection thing. It would have been cool for Luke to f*ck up the walker mechs with the force but then there is no way he could lose to kylo and with snoke dead he had no equal. So I guess he had to kinda die but... meh.

I do wonder if they would have killed luke off if they knew Fischer wasn't going to be around. They have no "nostalgia" left really as all the important OT characters are gone.

I thought Poe had a interesting lil arc that is likely to set him up as THE leader/commander next movie (especially with Fischer dead). He royally f*cked up multiple times this movie but by the end I think he was showing true leadership and I think that wast he point.

Rey is just... almost too much sometimes.She just doesn't have any flaws other than caring too much lol? She didn't stop going straight to the dark? I just feel like the more intersting story would have actually been a Jedi Finn.

Speaking of Finn... what a GD f'ing waste of a character and great actor. The Canto side arc was all around sh*t. IT only existed to show off teh "hey look weird goofy aliens!" part of star wars movies and to give Boyega somethign to do. The code breaker being a traitor was so damn telegraphed. Rose had a use but I don't like the pairing and the suicide save at the end was just dumb. Finn isn't force sensitive, Finn can't pilot like Poe, and he isn't a leader so... what freaking use does he have next movie? He may have been better off just dying in the suicide run. Plus, his beef was Phasma was terrible, that fight sucked and surprise surprise... no straight win for Finn. Cut out the Canto arc crap and show me more Rey/Luke training (we never saw the third lesson) and the movie would have been better for it.

Can I still hold out hope Finn is force sensitive and Rey will train him next movie? No? not at all? Not even a low level jedi type? Please :(
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 05:20:18 am
My general reactions:  (major spoilers)
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Luke: I suppose it was kind of expected that he'd end up being a reluctant teacher to Rey.  I wanted to see a lot more teaching sequences, though, seems like there wasn't that much, compared to Luke's experiences with Ben Kenobi and Yoda.
I didn't anticipate that Luke was doing a big fakeout in the climax.  It was intriguing, for sure.  I didn't know that Jedi illusion casting was that deep; in looking back at what happened, I'm surprised that droids (Threepio) were fooled by this as well, though I suppose Luke's wink was a semi-giveaway that something else was at work.  For this to be Luke's "final" (in body) appearance, ah well.  I would have appreciated him being portrayed in the super-acrobatic way that CGI and stunts allow nowadays, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

Leia: At last, we got to see Leia exhibit some Jedi powers besides the telepathic bond with Luke.  I was glad to see her do a lot more plot-wise, though I was shocked to see her taken out of the story early on.

Finn: This film kind of continues Finn's arc of being an amiable bumbler, to me.  I don't know if the intent is to continue to portray him as an everyman who is kind of overwhelmed by the circumstances around him, or.. something else?  Heh.  I think the exchange with Rose could have been handled in another way rather than him getting tasered, lol.  Ah, well.  With the fight against Captain Phasma, I wish that it had lasted longer and ended in a more "substantive" way for me.  The angle of him falling and landing on a floating skiff then sneak-bashing Phasma, eh.. lol.. I was wanting Finn to have a more "traditional" victory against the bad guys.  (On a side note, Phasma has kind of become Boba Fett to me, where the visual image is promoted as this big deal character but on-screen, doesn't really get to do a heck of a lot).  I get that this is supposed to mark Finn's final choice to really "join" the Rebellion, but then his near-death experience against the Empire's super-cannon stumbles into the "noble self-sacrificing black guy" trope; at least now he's at least portrayed as having made baby steps into having a relationship with a woman (of color) who is not Rey.  Hopefully the writer(s) will have a platonic bond between Finn and Rey and deepen the relationship with Rose.

Poe: I enjoyed Poe's general portrayal, I don't think you've had this kind of tension in previous films regarding the policies and agendas of members of the rebellion.  It was kind of Star Trek-ish in the past were there was a general lack of conflict. So this was a nice turn of events.

Rey: I was surprised by the depth of the cross-galactic telepathy, and how Rey was able to see landscapes and not just the "mind" of the person she's in contact with.  I'm still perplexed at what she was supposed to have seen in the cave (an update of Luke's cave wandering in Empire?).

Kylo: Whoo-boy, wow.  I'm glad he wasn't enough of a maniac to fire on his mother, but clearly he was still enough of a maniac to go through with the assaults on the rebel groups in general.  I still don't know what the Knights of Ren are supposedly all about, anyway-- there's no backstory on just how Ben was able to be sought out by Snoke and how he was gradually corrupted.  The "reveal" on his fateful confrontation with Luke was an interesting twist.  I enjoyed the fight sequence against the Crimson guards.

DJ:  I'm not sure what Benicio's thief/hacker added besides the eventual betrayal.  But I won't complain about his presence.  The way that he "conveniently" was able to escape the jail was kind of a subtle nod that everything about this guy wasn't on the up and up.

I'm still wondering where all this is going, in a way.  Emperor Snoke is dead, and so I guess Kylo has declared himself the supreme leader of the New Order.  The rebellion is reduced to whoever fits on the Falcon ship, now, so what systems can they run to?  How widespread is the New Order Empire this time around?  What would it really take to remove all their elements and restore a new republic?  Seems like this would take way more than one more movie.

Chewie:  I liked his presence in the film but I wanted to be more of it.  I wanted to see him have some extended conversations (growling aside) with Luke and hopefully Leia, about Han.  I wasn't overly interested in seeing him as the fuzzy sidekick character anymore.  I'd like the next film to have him in more of an out-front leader role.  Why not? He's already been through any number of political/war conflicts already.  What is the Wookie culture response to the New Order?

Still missing:
Lando- we need to see his take on Han's passing, as well as Luke and whatever Leia's post-Carrie Fisher fate is.  Did he become a family man? Did he become an administrator again?  Is he in exile post-New Order?

Sex:  do people still, you know, hook up, in this universe?

Religion:  Is the Jedi religion the only one out there? Is that the only path to have certain metahuman powers?  What about other belief systems and technological-biological connections that are considered a part of worship or rituals?


I think Finn as the Ďeverymaní is a reach that many people make. The Ďeverymaní character in movies often wins despite being in way over his head (ex. John McClane in the Die Hard films; McClane usually has some ingenuity or grit or something extra (white sauce?) that helps him carry the day). We just havenít seen that with Finn.

Iíve read speculation that what Rey found in the cave was the answer that she was what she was looking for, that she didnít need her parents, or something along that line. And it is similar to the vision Luke saw of himself inside the Vader mask on Dagobah, just done far more poorly in TLJ.

No one knows-yet-what the Knights of Ren are about. Rian Johnson just ignored them. I got a feeling J.J. Abrams will pick that thread back up in Episode IX. The speculation is that the Knights were the students Ben took with him after destroying the Jedi Temple.  Now that I think about it, we donít know even where the Jedi Temple was or what it even looked like. How was Ben able to destroy the whole freaking temple? Some of the issue with Ben is that there is a lot of telling when they should be showing when it comes to his power. His power has been portrayed inconsistently, though I guess that could be tied to his instability and mood swings.

I also wonder where they are going with the story going forward. I felt Johnson upped the power level and reach of the First Order for TLJ than Abrams had them in TFA. I got the impression that in TLJ that the First Order is about to conquer the galaxy. Abrams and TFA did a poor job of establishing the political situation for TFA and Johnson just bent it to fit the story he wanted to tell. Some might argue that the political situation wasnít well explained in ANH or the original trilogy, but those films get the benefit of the doubt since they started the franchise and are not the seventh and eighth films in the franchise. Plus, Lucas did a good job of making the Empire feel large and oppressive. And he delved further into the political situation in the prequels, so I think Lucas overall did a good job of setting the contours of his Star Wars films.

Good point about Chewbacca. I wouldíve loved to have seen him interact with Luke more and definitely Leia. One of my favorite scenes in TLJ was the too brief scene between Luke and R2D2, for a second the battered TLJ Luke disappeared and the original trilogy Luke returned. The sequels seem hellbent on removing the original characters to make way for the new characters. In TFA, there werenít a lot of scenes between Han and Leia and that extended to Luke and Leia in TLJ, or the other original heroes. Iím not sure why Disney is onboard with not doing little character moments like that (it reminds a bit of how Star Trek Nemesis mishandled the little character moments that add to Trek films). It was like Johnson in TLJ was disdainful or perhaps too afraid he would mess it up so he ignored it or sped by it, like the truncated conversation between Luke and Leia in TLJ, when she makes a joke about her hair to cut off a deeper discussion. For all the Ďchangeí touted in the new films, not much has been done with Chewbacca. Heís essentially the same as he was in the trilogy. Why not have him be a leader in the Resistance? Heís just as much a major hero as Luke, Leia, Han, and Lando. General Chewbacca would be cool.

I think even the original films were circumspect about sex. We know at least in the prequels Anakin and Padme got it on, but we can just imply about Han and Leia. They were so busy saving the galaxy there might not have been much time for nookie. The sequels might give us more sex since theyíve already gifted us a Kylo Ren beefcake shot (and there were no howls that Adam Driver was being objectified or the victim of the Ďfemale gazeí).

TFA did introduce, but didnít really develop, the Church of the Force idea. From what I gather, these people worship the Jedi or follow the Jedi way, though I donít think they are all Jedi. I donít know what canon religions exists now. I believe the cartoon Clone Warsí Nightsisters/Nightbrothers (Asajj Ventress, Maul, Savage Opress) had some religious aspects to them, but I might be wrong. Iím assuming that the EU did have other religions. In the EU the Yuuzhan Vong were religious fanatics, and had an anti-technology based religion. In the Fate of the Jedi novel series, Luke and his son Ben Skywalker (much cooler than Ben Solo) traveled to various planets where people practiced the Force differently. I wouldnít mind perhaps seeing something like that down the road, Rey encountering people who access and use the Force differently than the Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 06:16:32 am
Alright, finally saw it a second time. wanted to see it twice before really giving detailed thoughts on things.

I will say, I can see why casuals/new fans might be loving this movie. or anyone I suppose. It was a really pretty movie, had some really great moments and music. It was extremely well made. A lot of my problems with the movie have more to do with the "semi hardcore" fan stance more than anything. I still think it is one of the better Star Wars films... but that might say more about the fact that a lot of the star wars films are kinda meh.

I think Kylo was extremely well done... it is interesting having a villain that isnt "finished" yet and watching him evolve. I thought Rey was fine-ish.. she had some really good moments although I have my issues with the character. The fight against the red guard dudes was really cool. Yoda was cool.

For the quick nick pick side before we get heavy... the porgs were stupid, chewie was wasted, r2d2 was wasted, timeline was weird (and I don't think Carrie Fischer can act at all, not to speak ill of the dead), and I wish they didn't make Hux into some kind of a mini joke at the beginning.

My 100% biggest issue with this whole movie is Snoke. Not even just the fact that Abrams, Kennedy, Rian and Co acted like hsi origin was this huge mystery we would figure out and then didnt... but f*ck he is soooooooooooo important and such a huge plot issue to this universe. and he was actually really really really freaking cool and well acted and well designed.

How in this galaxy did a dark side user THIS powerful (he may have been the strongest force user we've seen on the big screen) avoid any Jedi or Palpatine detection all these years? We know there are other dark users than the Palpatine line sith from the cartoons but yeesh... this is a whole other beast of strength. And as Luke stated, that I didn't catch the first viewing... Snoke was in Kylo's brain trying to turn him from the beginning. He felt him when he had his "imma murder my nephew" moment.

So you have a ridiculously powerful dark side user (that acts just like a Sith but apparently isn't lol? wut?) who was able to turn a Skywalker right under THE jedi masters nose... and luke knew who he was and what he was trying to do... and we know nothign about him whatsover? Its like Abrams was basically tasked with doing a remake/update of New Hope and copied it to a tee and just didn't bother to think any of this through and Rian didn't want any part of it and moved on.

I know some people are like "well you don't have to know all the backstory!" but for someone this powerful I feel you did. if you are gonna have an extended universe you gotta play by those rules.

But that kinda leads to one of my big problems with Luke. Luke knew Snoke existed. Knew what he was trying to do.... why didn't he try and go murder snoke instead of murder his nephew lol?

I just really wanted to see a bad ass Luke. In a flashback or something. Yes the force projection was a damn cool power feat but... I just wanted to see the dude cut some peopel down with a saber. Is that really too much to ask lol? I generally liked a lot of his jedi thoughts about Balance and how there is always the balance and how the jedi caused a lot of the problems (or let them happen accidentally). I don't know how you do THAT type of ending though without the force projection thing. It would have been cool for Luke to f*ck up the walker mechs with the force but then there is no way he could lose to kylo and with snoke dead he had no equal. So I guess he had to kinda die but... meh.

I do wonder if they would have killed luke off if they knew Fischer wasn't going to be around. They have no "nostalgia" left really as all the important OT characters are gone.

I thought Poe had a interesting lil arc that is likely to set him up as THE leader/commander next movie (especially with Fischer dead). He royally f*cked up multiple times this movie but by the end I think he was showing true leadership and I think that wast he point.

Rey is just... almost too much sometimes.She just doesn't have any flaws other than caring too much lol? She didn't stop going straight to the dark? I just feel like the more intersting story would have actually been a Jedi Finn.

Speaking of Finn... what a GD f'ing waste of a character and great actor. The Canto side arc was all around sh*t. IT only existed to show off teh "hey look weird goofy aliens!" part of star wars movies and to give Boyega somethign to do. The code breaker being a traitor was so damn telegraphed. Rose had a use but I don't like the pairing and the suicide save at the end was just dumb. Finn isn't force sensitive, Finn can't pilot like Poe, and he isn't a leader so... what freaking use does he have next movie? He may have been better off just dying in the suicide run. Plus, his beef was Phasma was terrible, that fight sucked and surprise surprise... no straight win for Finn. Cut out the Canto arc crap and show me more Rey/Luke training (we never saw the third lesson) and the movie would have been better for it.

Can I still hold out hope Finn is force sensitive and Rey will train him next movie? No? not at all? Not even a low level jedi type? Please :(

I canít put myself in the casual fan category for Star Wars, but I could see why its doing so well with casual fans. It is a great looking movie and it has action and some jokes and Porgs. I donít think itís as breezy or fun as Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor: Ragnarok but is better than Transformers: The Last Knight (and every other Transformers film) and Valerian in comparison to other intergalactic adventure films. And itís a quicker paced sci-fi film than Blade Runner 2049. I could also see the praised dismantling of nostalgia as a way to ease up on continuity to make Star Wars more appealing to even more people who havenít seen the original films and have no desire to watch them, read up on them or the Star Wars world, or watch the cartoons, read the novels, or play the video games. I also think the omnipresent marketing, and the decades long deep penetration of Star Wars into pop culture compels moviegoers to see TLJ, just like the other Star Wars films.

While I thought TLJ did a better job developing Ren I donít buy him as a credible threat. He is very much unfinished, but it doesnít work for me. Even his unpredictability hasnít really resulted in some dastardly act so far. He destroys equipment when he gets upset and doesnít Force choke or kill First Order officers. I also think him being unfinished doesnít work because Rey, while also unfinished in her training, is already his superior. She doesnít have to get her weight up, so to speak, to defeat him. Heís not a real challenge to her physically, so perhaps Episode IX will delve more into the psychological challenge Ren presents for her. That is one of the better parts of TLJ, Johnson did a good job creating a situation that could tempt Rey. Rey and Ren also neatly gets Rey away from Finn.

TLJ made a big deal about separating the Ďlegendí of Luke from the real person, however the idea of Lukeís legend is based on the EU mostly and has not been evidenced on screen post-ROTJ. So perhaps that was a swipe at the old fans for some reason, Johnson being an Alpha nerd who wants to show heís better than the other nerds or something. But the funny thing is while Luke was being deconstructed, the legend making was continuing with Rey. So, the idea of being a legend isnít so bad really, itís just who the legend is supposed to be. I did like in TLJ that Reyís search for identity, for a place in the universe, was more front and center than in TFA. In TFA, she was rooted to the past, her diehard belief that her parents would return to Jakku and retrieve her. Johnson strips that away in TLJ and thereby gives Rey some vulnerability, though by the end of the film it seems like sheís made her choice and thatís probably it for real character development. So far we havenít really seen Rey fail. TLJ came the closest with Snokeís interrogation, but of course, Ren was there to take out Snoke. But Ren is too weak-emotionally or otherwise-and Ďneedsí Rey at his side.

Poe very well could be the leader, though I would see him more of a fighting leader (so we can have more dazzling X-wing action) than sitting in some room making decisions. Itís likely that we might get another female admiral or official leading the rest of the Resistance, and having Poe back out leading the fight in his X-wing in Episode IX.

How Snoke was handled was disappointing. Sure, his death was a nice surprise-in the moment-but then you realize what a waste of a character it was. Why build him up only to kill him? And while some say he doesnít matter, thatís because he didnít matter to Rian Johnson and the filmís defenders are going to spin every decision made in this movie into a genius move. I donít fully blame Johnson because Abrams just created Snoke and IMO had no idea who the character was, what his motivation was, and just left it for the next person to deal with. The idea that Snoke and Luke are two sides of the same coin, both want the Jedi and Sith to die in a sense, was a neat idea that wasnít explored much at all. In part because Johnson was in a hurry to take out the elders so that Ren and Rey could take center stage. They might as well just made Snoke a Sith and his early exit might not have been so bad since we at least could assume what he was about then. Perhaps Ren will continue being a Vader fanboy and just restart the Sith.

It bothers me that some of the filmís defenders crap on Ďnostalgiaí and IMO like the idea of not using Sith or Jedi or minimizing them, while they turn a blind eye to all the other nostalgic characters, things (Millennium Falcon, TIE Fighters, lightsabers) or allusions (First Order/Empire, Resistance/Rebellion) that are still in the sequel films. Johnson or Disney are not as bold or radical or different as they claim. And if some of the defenders actually had read the EU or researched it a little without dismissing the old fans and the EU fans then they might discover that some of these Ďnewí and Ďboldí things have already been covered in previous books or comics.

Finn as a Jedi would be something. I think theyíve trashed his character so much by this point I donít know if even that would help, but it would be something. Right now, what skill does he have, except for infiltrating First Order ships/bases? Like you said, a waste of a good actor. I liked the Phasma fight at first, but on second thought, it wasnít that great. For one it wasted Phasma who shouldíve won that fight, and two it really wasnít a clean win for Finn like I had thought when I watched it at first. Even though Iím not a fan of black characters sacrificing themselves for white characters, Iíll make an exception for Finn because I think his sacrifice was a moment of character growth for him and couldíve completed his arc. He went from fear of the First Order to being willing to die to stop them. Iím not a fan of the Rose-Finn pairing either, and her robbing Finn of his agency on Crait was one of several issues I had with their relationship. Though I knew thatís where Disney wanted to go when I learned about Rose and Finn going on an adventure together. Iím not an advocate of interracial relationships in the media, when it comes to black folks, because I feel there is an ulterior motive behind the depictions (an implicit knock against black-black intraracial relationships), but all that being said, I think Daisy Ridley and John Boyega have really good chemistry and it should be Rey and Finn together. Ridley has chemistry with Adam Driver too, but she has stronger chemistry with Boyega.

I donít see them making Boyega a Jedi. And as for Rey training him, she needs training her damn self. I think Disney is making a mistake by deemphasizing Jedi training. It sets a bad precedent going forward, to just have characters be great fighters and so forth without any training (it removes some of the rules for this world, just like the hyperspace jump thing, and if they donít replace those rules, itís creating a vacuum). It also sends a bad message to kids that they donít have to work hard, study, or train. But it is in keeping with the instant celebrities of our social media age. At least TLJ had Rey steal the Jedi books. I wish they had had a holocron instead. That way they could bring back Qui-Gon, Mace, Yoda, Luke, and various other Jedi to instruct her. Or that they bring back Shaak Ti. I think they repealed her death twice before Disney took over so from a canon standpoint sheís still out there. And they might actually allow a female Jedi to teach Rey something. Just saw on Shaak Tiís Wookieepedia page that she did create a holcoron that Luke retrieved. It could be a great way to introduce another Jedi, and move away from the Skywalker line, while at least removing the criticism that Rey is too untrained.

I definitely understand how you felt about Luke not getting a really bad ass moment. I think it wouldíve been a great scene and a great payoff for fans of the original movies to finally see Luke fully trained and at his height. I wouldíve been fine with a flashback and even Hamill lookalike Sebastian Stan doing the fighting if they had to. I donít get the disdain by some for Ďfan serviceí. I think it has to be balanced like everything else and put into the furtherance of a good story. But the idea that Disney shouldnít do it, that its some kind of Ďpanderingí feels insulting to me like its more crapping on old fans. So, what exactly do these Ďnewí fans want out of Star Wars?

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 31, 2017, 07:09:18 am
You are right about rey/ren...

If they met face to face again there is no tension whatsoever... rey will beat that ass. Especially now that kylo is even more conflicted and emotional about luke and rey whike rey shot the door on him in there last mindtalk and seems at peace.

Only thing holding rey back is thinking she can turn him back but meh. If anything she should keep getting stronger bc shes still a newb

We are gonna have to have a large time skip next movie.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 07:25:36 am
A time jump does give them an opportunity to have Ren consolidate his hold on the First Order and to have Rey have read the Jedi books and be even more powerful in the Force. It also gives them time to build back up the Resistance. And it could be a way to acknowledge that General Leia had passed away since TLJ. Though they might do like Babylon 5's G'Kar and say something like he 'went beyond the rim' after Andreas Katsulas passed.

While the box office is doing well for TLJ I do wonder though if Disney will make some 'corrections' for Episode IX. More Luke Force Ghost. Perhaps Phasma will return. An explanation for Snoke, or (my hope) a new villain enters the fray. Snoke did train at least one other apprentice. So I'm hoping they bring that person back. I also think it would be awesome if they brought Ashoka Tano back to mentor Rey.

I do think Abrams is going to want to mollify things with fans. Similar to how Star Trek Beyond went back to basics after Into Darkness, but the damage was too severe by that point. Star Wars is much bigger than Trek and I think this backlash, which isn't denting the movie tickets, will eventually blow over. I also think that all the gushing over this film will cool off too. And like TFA, some of the gushers will look at TLJ with a more critical eye down the road. And some of the haters/critics might change their minds about how awful the film was to them in 2017. I am curious though to see how the toys are going to sell. I was just at the local Walmart this morning and some of the Star Wars toys are discounted. Rogue One toys are still there.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 31, 2017, 07:50:13 am
There are still 4 more kinghts of ren too... luke stated student went with ben... where are they?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 01:19:48 pm
Good point. And we don't know exactly who the Knights of Ren are.

As for other Force users, we'll see if Rebels addresses what happened to Ahsoka, Kanan, and Ezra. (Made a mistake about Shaak Ti, she died after all. Lucasfilm kept rescinding her death but Disney confirmed it in a reference book). I'm also not sure if all the Inquisitors, from Rebels, have been wiped out. Wookieepedia says the Inquisitors program ceased to exist before ANH, but does that mean that every Inquisitor was killed? I think it's enough room there to say some survived, like Order 66 and the Jedi. The canon Order 66 page has a list of the known Jedi survivors. It's not a lot but who knows if any of these people might show up in a movie at some point. At least one Nightsister survived into the Imperial era and could be Snoke's apprentice or another potential enemy for Rey. The new canon introduced the dark side Acolytes of the Beyond, where they could draw enemies from. Snoke wore a ring that referenced the Four Sages of Dwartii, does that mean anything really? Who knows. Snoke also had mysterious Attendants could be something or nothing going forward. I would've been fine with Vanee, Vader's assistant from Rogue One, being Snoke.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitorius)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaak_Ti (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaak_Ti)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nightsisters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nightsisters)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shelish (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shelish)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Acolytes_of_the_Beyond)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Four_Sages_of_Dwartii (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Four_Sages_of_Dwartii)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Attendants (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Attendants)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vane%C3%A9 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vane%C3%A9)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 01:20:04 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/31/can-we-now-stop-pretending-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-disaster/#72f1a4a04c02 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/31/can-we-now-stop-pretending-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-disaster/#72f1a4a04c02)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-top-film-2017/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-top-film-2017/)

http://geektyrant.com/news/mark-hamill-thanks-rian-johnson-for-not-cutting-his-kids-cameos (http://geektyrant.com/news/mark-hamill-thanks-rian-johnson-for-not-cutting-his-kids-cameos)

Poor Mark Hamill. I think Disney got on him and he walked back his criticisms over TLJ's depiction of Luke and now he's kissing a little of Johnson's behind here. He wants to make sure he's in Episode IX I suppose.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on December 31, 2017, 02:32:21 pm
Did i miss how the first order had hyperspace tracking tech?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on December 31, 2017, 04:26:56 pm
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-rogue-one-last-jedi-easter-egg/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-rogue-one-last-jedi-easter-egg/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 01, 2018, 06:50:38 am
An interesting pro-TLJ You Tube video. I didn't listen to the whole thing, but not a bad accounting of the pro-TLJ arguments.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbHUJEH-ERI#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 05:05:21 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-says-the-truth-about-reys-parents-is-actually-still-open-a156676 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-says-the-truth-about-reys-parents-is-actually-still-open-a156676)

I suspected as much, that while Rian Johnson intended for Rey's parents to be 'nobodies' that it wasn't set in stone. And I believe Abrams and Disney might just reverse that to clam down restive fans. And the prof-nobodies defenders will just support it too. Perhaps they can just blame that reversal on Disney caving into the old fans.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 02, 2018, 05:26:36 am
I still can't believe the main story beats weren't planned out in advance.

You would think the major arcs of snoke, luke, rey, and kylo would have been planned out in advance.

I could see the more minor characters being more fluid (finn, poe, leia, ect) based on popularity but damn... the main guys should have been set in stone.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 02, 2018, 05:29:25 am
[url]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-says-the-truth-about-reys-parents-is-actually-still-open-a156676[/url] ([url]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/spoilers-star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-says-the-truth-about-reys-parents-is-actually-still-open-a156676[/url])

I suspected as much, that while Rian Johnson intended for Rey's parents to be 'nobodies' that it wasn't set in stone. And I believe Abrams and Disney might just reverse that to clam down restive fans. And the prof-nobodies defenders will just support it too. Perhaps they can just blame that reversal on Disney caving into the old fans.


Simple answer, the people she thought were her parents aren't her biological parents.  It's a cliche, but nothing new there.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 02, 2018, 05:32:41 am
I still can't believe the main story beats weren't planned out in advance.

You would think the major arcs of snoke, luke, rey, and kylo would have been planned out in advance.

I could see the more minor characters being more fluid (finn, poe, leia, ect) based on popularity but damn... the main guys should have been set in stone.

Splinters of the Mind Eyes by Alan Dean Foster was written before the release of New Hope and was a possible sequel to SW.  (It was written before they knew it would be a hit.). In that book, it's clear that Luke and Leia were not siblings.  That was a major change to main characters.  And personally I don't believe Darth was orginal Luke's father.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 07:23:57 am
I still can't believe the main story beats weren't planned out in advance.

You would think the major arcs of snoke, luke, rey, and kylo would have been planned out in advance.

I could see the more minor characters being more fluid (finn, poe, leia, ect) based on popularity but damn... the main guys should have been set in stone.


Splinters of the Mind Eyes by Alan Dean Foster was written before the release of New Hope and was a possible sequel to SW.  (It was written before they knew it would be a hit.). In that book, it's clear that Luke and Leia were not siblings.  That was a major change to main characters.  And personally I don't believe Darth was orginal Luke's father.


From the things I've read over the years, I agree that Leia and Luke were not originally supposed to be siblings. I read that Yoda telling Obi-Wan about the 'other' was supposed to be a set up for a character Luke was going to go in search of in Episodes 7-9. But Lucas pulled the plug on that, for whatever reason, and just simplified things by just making that 'other' Leia. I personally think that Vader was intended to be Luke's dad though. I haven't seen anything about that not being one of Lucas's intentions, if not from jump, early on, after he finalized the characters.

This is taken from the Wookieepedia page on Lucas's early sequel ideas.

Ideas for a Star Wars sequel trilogy were in place as early as 1976, during the filming of Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope, the first produced film in the franchise, known at the time simply as Star Wars. Mark Hamill, who starred as Luke Skywalker in the film, recounted that George Lucas, the director of A New Hope, asked if Hamill would be interested in appearing in Star Wars: Episode IX in 2011, when Lucas assumed such a film would be made. According to Lucas, Skywalker would "be like Obi-Wan Kenobi handing the lightsaber down to the next generation." TIME magazine also reported in 1978, after the success of A New Hope, that Lucas would produce a sequel to A New Hope and then ten additional films, for a total of four Star Wars trilogies. These early ideas did not reflect the final version of the saga, however; according to Jonathan W. Rinzler, "the original trilogy occupied Episodes VI, VII, and VIII; a Clone Wars trilogy took up Episodes II, III, and IV, while Episode I was a 'prelude,' Episodes IX through XI were simply left blank Ė and Episode XII was the 'conclusion.'"[16]

As the saga developed after the success of A New Hope, these plans began to change. Lucas stated in 1979 that there would be three trilogies, plans he continued to talk about into the 1980s. Lucas described the potential sequels as being "what happens to Luke" after the original trilogy, and that it would be "much more ethereal" and "ambitious." By the time Lucas produced Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi, the final film of the original trilogy, he no longer had plans to produce a sequel trilogy, stating that the "next trilogy will be someone else's vision."[16]

Several plot points had been discussed for the sequel trilogy that were eventually condensed into Return of the Jedi. According to Gary Kurtz, the producer of A New Hope and Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back, the creative team had discussed the sequels showing Skywalker's new life with the Jedi, finding his long-lost sisteróat the time, Leia Organa was not Skywalker's sisteró[17] and a final confrontation with the Emperor.[18]


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sequel_trilogy#cite_note-IGN_Kurtz-17 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sequel_trilogy#cite_note-IGN_Kurtz-17)

http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/11/11/an-interview-with-gary-kurtz (http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/11/11/an-interview-with-gary-kurtz)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 02, 2018, 07:50:24 am
I wish ol George was more of an "architect" of SW while someone else (directors) iron out the actual films.

IE... don't let george write scripts or dialogue lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 08:11:56 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/heres-why-youre-wrong-if-you-think-rey-needs-more-training-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#41f77132669d (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/heres-why-youre-wrong-if-you-think-rey-needs-more-training-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#41f77132669d)

I only skimmed this, but some TLJ are really reaching to justify some of the issues with the sequel films. While I did consider Rey a Mary Sue, I'll recant that. She's  not a Mary Sue but she's pretty close. From what I read here, it's like the writer has to crap on Luke in a sense to justify his arguments in defense of Rey. He says Luke was 'relatively pampered' compared to Rey. Granted Luke was raised in a stable household, but he also grew up on a planet controlled by Jabba the Hut and where the Sandpeople roamed, it wasn't a paradise. And it's like Luke getting assistance from Obi-Wan's ghost in the Death Star run, him losing his hand in Empire, and then him getting fried by the Emperor are ignored. Rey hasn't encountered anything like that so far.

Granted she did go to Luke and ask for his help, and she did hear voices when she touched Anakin's lightsaber, but that's not the same as a Force Ghost actively instructing you like what happened to Luke. And while Kylo Ren wasn't trying to kill Rey in TFA, neither was Vader trying to kill Luke in Empire, yet Luke lost a hand, and in TFA it was Ren who got a lasting scar from the encounter. And it's not just Luke saving the day in TLJ, he does provide the distraction, but it's Rey who saves the remnants of the Resistance with her rock lifting.

Rey is vastly overpowered for these films, in comparison to Luke, or even Anakin (who was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever), and people don't want to admit it. Rey is not a bad character, just a poorly developed one, and juicing up her abilities without proper explanation or training (when previous saga heroes got one or both of those things) doesn't fly and actually weakens her character. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/10-things-star-wars-episode-ix-absolutely-must-do-to-be-amazing/#22622b41dc90 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/10-things-star-wars-episode-ix-absolutely-must-do-to-be-amazing/#22622b41dc90)

I'm more in line with his points here than in the other article. I was thinking about #2 myself. Rey needs a double lightsaber. I also would like Ren to get a more traditional lightsaber. It might have been nice if he had kept Anakin's blade.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 08:13:02 am
I wish ol George was more of an "architect" of SW while someone else (directors) iron out the actual films.

IE... don't let george write scripts or dialogue lol

I agree. Let George be the big idea guy. And also let him design more ships, world, aliens, costumes, etc. And name the characters. I haven't been super impressed with the names of a lot of the new characters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 02, 2018, 09:28:06 am
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/heres-why-youre-wrong-if-you-think-rey-needs-more-training-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#41f77132669d[/url] ([url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/heres-why-youre-wrong-if-you-think-rey-needs-more-training-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#41f77132669d[/url])

I only skimmed this, but some TLJ are really reaching to justify some of the issues with the sequel films. While I did consider Rey a Mary Sue, I'll recant that. She's  not a Mary Sue but she's pretty close. From what I read here, it's like the writer has to crap on Luke in a sense to justify his arguments in defense of Rey. He says Luke was 'relatively pampered' compared to Rey. Granted Luke was raised in a stable household, but he also grew up on a planet controlled by Jabba the Hut and where the Sandpeople roamed, it wasn't a paradise. And it's like Luke getting assistance from Obi-Wan's ghost in the Death Star run, him losing his hand in Empire, and then him getting fried by the Emperor are ignored. Rey hasn't encountered anything like that so far.

Granted she did go to Luke and ask for his help, and she did hear voices when she touched Anakin's lightsaber, but that's not the same as a Force Ghost actively instructing you like what happened to Luke. And while Kylo Ren wasn't trying to kill Rey in TFA, neither was Vader trying to kill Luke in Empire, yet Luke lost a hand, and in TFA it was Ren who got a lasting scar from the encounter. And it's not just Luke saving the day in TLJ, he does provide the distraction, but it's Rey who saves the remnants of the Resistance with her rock lifting.

Rey is vastly overpowered for these films, in comparison to Luke, or even Anakin (who was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi ever), and people don't want to admit it. Rey is not a bad character, just a poorly developed one, and juicing up her abilities without proper explanation or training (when previous saga heroes got one or both of those things) doesn't fly and actually weakens her character. 

[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/10-things-star-wars-episode-ix-absolutely-must-do-to-be-amazing/#22622b41dc90[/url] ([url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/01/02/10-things-star-wars-episode-ix-absolutely-must-do-to-be-amazing/#22622b41dc90[/url])

I'm more in line with his points here than in the other article. I was thinking about #2 myself. Rey needs a double lightsaber. I also would like Ren to get a more traditional lightsaber. It might have been nice if he had kept Anakin's blade.


It sucks to say but people are only defending it so hard because shes a white girl.

Ben was skywalker blood in him, whose grandfather had the highest force potential we've seen, uncle may have ended up stronger (esp with that force projection feat), mother can pull a superman in space lol... trained at a young age by the only Jedi left... then trained an an older age in the dark side (which is the more raw power side of the force) by some powerful AF dude Snoke... who was able to train with other force users (sparing is a skill) as well...

vs...

Rey... who has no name parents... has some skills with a staff due to living by herself on a junk planet... who received all of two lessons from an "i quit" Luke. Neither lessons involved using the Force for anything "power" related.


Said Rey is CLEARLY the superior force user on the two. Her raw potential is on par with Kylo (as stated by Luke) but the fact she can wield it so well with NO training is just... its mary sue ish.

Lighstaber wise, Rey should have a Maul esque staff since that is her normal weapon anyway.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 11:28:50 am
Basically you hit the nail on the head. I just think there is such a push for feminism right now (especially if its a white female character) in the media that people don't want to see the problems with Rey or the feminist leaning sequels. Feminism trumps good characters or writing. If it continues down this vein I wonder where Star Wars will wind up? Sure, the old fans will eventually die off, but will this new take on Star Wars attract enough new fans to replace the old fans who will give up even before dying off?

Disney and Star Wars are both so global in their reach that it's suffocating so I can imagine that Star Wars will be going strong for at least another decade, but after that, who knows. If they keep putting out weaker films, if they strip away the 'nostalgia' and treat treasured characters like crap then what product will they eventually wind up with? Something that's like Star Wars in Name Only, but people will be afraid to say that out of fear of media backlash or browbeating.

As I've said before, I find it funny that people slammed the DCEU's grittier take, with their grimdark heroes, yet lavish praise on the similar direction that was taken with the sequel films, especially the depiction of Luke. Just a month ago one of the few positive things the media could cough up about the DCEU was Justice League's
Spoiler (click to reveal)
more hopeful take on Superman,
but now, Luke being hopeless and defeated is 'fresh and bold'. And some are touting TLJ's box office dominance, while they could dismiss that argument for any Transformer film or any other big film they find wanting for critical reasons, or whatever reason.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 12:44:47 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/02/jumanji-tops-star-wars-the-last-jedi-but-blows-its-shot-at-box-office-history/#6ad1b7a2ee3b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/02/jumanji-tops-star-wars-the-last-jedi-but-blows-its-shot-at-box-office-history/#6ad1b7a2ee3b)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 02, 2018, 01:10:27 pm
Basically you hit the nail on the head. I just think there is such a push for feminism right now (especially if its a white female character) in the media that people don't want to see the problems with Rey or the feminist leaning sequels. Feminism trumps good characters or writing. If it continues down this vein I wonder where Star Wars will wind up? Sure, the old fans will eventually die off, but will this new take on Star Wars attract enough new fans to replace the old fans who will give up even before dying off?

Disney and Star Wars are both so global in their reach that it's suffocating so I can imagine that Star Wars will be going strong for at least another decade, but after that, who knows. If they keep putting out weaker films, if they strip away the 'nostalgia' and treat treasured characters like crap then what product will they eventually wind up with? Something that's like Star Wars in Name Only, but people will be afraid to say that out of fear of media backlash or browbeating.

As I've said before, I find it funny that people slammed the DCEU's grittier take, with their grimdark heroes, yet lavish praise on the similar direction that was taken with the sequel films, especially the depiction of Luke. Just a month ago one of the few positive things the media could cough up about the DCEU was Justice League's
Spoiler (click to reveal)
more hopeful take on Superman,
but now, Luke being hopeless and defeated is 'fresh and bold'. And some are touting TLJ's box office dominance, while they could dismiss that argument for any Transformer film or any other big film they find wanting for critical reasons, or whatever reason.

they should have differentiated Kylo and Rey's powers a bit.

If you want to make it so Rey's Force potential and power is simply out of this world...then roll with that. Have her raw power be that.

But she shouldn't be able to refine it without training. she shouldn't be able hold and levitate rocks for instance... she would simply blow them up with little control. Her light saber technique should be based on her raw power... she shouldn't be able to out technique Kylo but if she taps into the force her strength could overpower him (ala Vader honestly).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 01:36:23 pm
Not a bad idea, though I don't think Disney would want to suggest that Rey can't control her powers, that they might feel it diminishes her as feminist icon, or that it trades in the stereotype of women being overly emotional. I think Disney placed the burden of representation on the Rey character that makes it hard to write for her. And it's not like Rey was the only (white) female heroine out there, however it sort of feels to me that that's how Disney has approached this character, ignoring the good character work that has been done on the Clone Wars with Ahsoka or even Asajj Ventress. Both are great warriors, but both have more personalities and foibles/flaws than Rey has shown thus far.

I think the Rey character is too confined. And since they just want her to be awesome because she's a (white) woman they've tossed out the rules for using the Force doubling down on not having her go through the training (i.e. earn it) the way we somewhat saw Anakin and Luke do it. Getting training was a key big deal in the first six films, but now all of a sudden it doesn't matter.

They've compounded this problem by having Kylo Ren also be relatively unskilled with a lightsaber, which makes little sense since he was a student of Luke and Snoke. He should be better than he is. Perhaps this is Disney's way of distancing itself from the prequels when they had lightsaber fights that looked like ballet.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 02, 2018, 01:51:54 pm
one thing about the Force is that it is horribly inconsistent.

Hell, I think Snoke was the first person i've seen he used the force lie id expect people to lol.

I mean... snoke could have thrown all of those red guards and snapped their neck effortlessly lol why fight them with laser swords when you can use a power others can't tap?

How could kylo and rey struggle against normal human guards when they can use the force to do telekinetic sh*t, force speed, force strenght, force agility, ect. It would be like MCU Cap or MCU Bucky or MCU Panther fighting people without powers. aka a bloodbath of brutality.


Hell... maybe we are simply overrated Kylo. He did get hit with a saber by a dude that got beat by a storm trooper so.... maybe hes more hype than skill lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 02, 2018, 02:00:15 pm
You're right, the Force is inconsistent and it's also plot dictated. That being said, a big deal was made about Force sensitive people getting the proper training and even TLJ acknowledges this somewhat, perhaps just to subvert it.

Your description of Snoke reminds me of Palpatine in ROTJ. He didn't have a lightsaber, or at least a visible one, yet he radiated power.

Ren has been inconsistently portrayed. I don't think it's an issue of overrating him. I mean he caught a blaster bolt in mid-air, that's pretty powerful. He has been portrayed as powerful, yet unstable from jump. If I recall, in TFA it mentioned he murdered several of Luke's students and we see in TLJ the result of his handiwork, destroying the Jedi Temple. We also saw him do a force choke with more power than any Vader has administered when he checked Hux. And to his credit, he had taken a shot in the side before he fought Finn, and he possibly was toying with Finn somewhat-being a sadistic jerk-before getting to Rey in TFA. We don't know if the Praetorians were 'normal' humans. And it's likely we won't find on in a film, but possibly from one of the books or comics in the future.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: CKW on January 02, 2018, 02:26:23 pm
I expected more spookiness in the birthplace of the Jedi than finger-snapping in unison in front of a mirror. There was no need for the rebels to be apart of the story to build tension. Rey finding out that she was very susceptible to the dark side was all the tension that was needed. Heck, Rey could have been the one to say that this Jedi thing is not all that it is cracked up to be and I wants no part of it.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 03, 2018, 05:44:06 am
I don't always agree with Grace Randolph but I do like listening to her. And I agree that there is a media push for The Last Jedi. And they are spinning stuff to ignore any troubling signs.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGMECfocxR8#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 03, 2018, 06:40:35 am
http://www.cbr.com/jumanji-star-wars-the-last-jedi-box-office/ (http://www.cbr.com/jumanji-star-wars-the-last-jedi-box-office/)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/03/box-office-the-last-jedi-tops-rogue-one-and-the-dark-knight/#60c98a552845 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/03/box-office-the-last-jedi-tops-rogue-one-and-the-dark-knight/#60c98a552845)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 03, 2018, 06:16:11 pm
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPD1w78D5I#)

"The Case Against the Jedi"

Interesting feminist critique of the Jedi
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 04, 2018, 01:49:55 pm
http://geektyrant.com/news/fan-theory-explains-luke-skywalkers-strange-behavior-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi (http://geektyrant.com/news/fan-theory-explains-luke-skywalkers-strange-behavior-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi)

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rey-luke-jedi-powers-strength/ (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rey-luke-jedi-powers-strength/)

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/ (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-george-lucas-idea/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 05, 2018, 04:34:03 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/04/star-wars-8-is-about-to-get-clobbered-by-a-low-budget-chinese-romantic-comedy/#772e7b0160b6 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/04/star-wars-8-is-about-to-get-clobbered-by-a-low-budget-chinese-romantic-comedy/#772e7b0160b6)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/04/4-ways-the-last-jedi-got-slammed-for-performing-as-predicted/#49f2da2815dd (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/04/4-ways-the-last-jedi-got-slammed-for-performing-as-predicted/#49f2da2815dd)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-billion-dollar-blockbuster-for-britain/#20096399ce07 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2018/01/04/star-wars-the-billion-dollar-blockbuster-for-britain/#20096399ce07)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 05, 2018, 08:15:10 am
It is interesting that China just kinda shrugs at Star Wars.

I guess without the nostalgia factor, its just another space opera movie to them. But without the "fun" of a GoG or Thor (or the Marvel branding).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 05, 2018, 11:19:23 am
I just thought about it, but perhaps the Chinese reaction should be a good gauge about how good this new round of Star Wars actually is. Without nostalgia, without the omnipresent branding, without the deep pop culture penetration that we all have been subjected to for decades now, the Chinese likely have not had much of that exposure to the Star Wars phenomenon and look at it and judge it like another US big blockbuster and/or space opera and if they are shrugging their shoulders for TLJ but are supporting Thor and Guardians of the Galaxy that could show that stripped of all the branding and prepackaged interest for Star Wars that the sequel characters and/or stories aren't that engaging.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 05, 2018, 11:30:20 am
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-china-box-office/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-china-box-office/)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-struggles-in-china-as-it-loses-opening-day-to-a-rom-com-a156789 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-struggles-in-china-as-it-loses-opening-day-to-a-rom-com-a156789)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 06, 2018, 07:24:02 am
http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020 (http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020)

Interesting conservative critique. I actually agree with a lot of this.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 06, 2018, 01:31:38 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/06/box-office-jumanji-overperforms-as-star-wars-the-last-jedi-tops-555m/#11ce7eb423d5 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/06/box-office-jumanji-overperforms-as-star-wars-the-last-jedi-tops-555m/#11ce7eb423d5)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/last-jedi-has-set-its-first-box-office-record-biggest-ever-sequel-to-sequel-plunge/#7c902a0f42ee (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/last-jedi-has-set-its-first-box-office-record-biggest-ever-sequel-to-sequel-plunge/#7c902a0f42ee)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/4-key-reasons-why-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-catastrophic-flop-in-china/#d22935a6d04e (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/06/4-key-reasons-why-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-a-catastrophic-flop-in-china/#d22935a6d04e)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 06, 2018, 01:44:57 pm
You Tube commentary: Why Finn doesn't work:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc-dlTcB4v0#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 07, 2018, 04:38:49 am
http://slate.com/arts/2018/01/the-last-jedi-is-a-star-wars-movie-about-fandom-and-the-lure-of-myth.html (http://slate.com/arts/2018/01/the-last-jedi-is-a-star-wars-movie-about-fandom-and-the-lure-of-myth.html)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-last-jedi-backlash-provides-a-useful-primer-in-how-not-to-watch-a-movie/2018/01/04/6fa9a72c-f142-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.d8859b34f06f (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-last-jedi-backlash-provides-a-useful-primer-in-how-not-to-watch-a-movie/2018/01/04/6fa9a72c-f142-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html?utm_term=.d8859b34f06f)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2018/01/06/star-wars-last-jedi-force/#51911ac07a32 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2018/01/06/star-wars-last-jedi-force/#51911ac07a32)

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269857/do-fans-want-to-see-their-heroes-grow-old (http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269857/do-fans-want-to-see-their-heroes-grow-old)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 07, 2018, 11:20:05 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/07/last-jedi-crushed-in-china-debut-by-low-budget-rom-com-ex-file-3s-87m-2nd-frame/#1dd8ffa0666b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/07/last-jedi-crushed-in-china-debut-by-low-budget-rom-com-ex-file-3s-87m-2nd-frame/#1dd8ffa0666b)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/07/stop-pretending-star-wars-the-last-jedi-isnt-a-big-box-office-hit/#759c5eb58215 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/07/stop-pretending-star-wars-the-last-jedi-isnt-a-big-box-office-hit/#759c5eb58215)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccalerner/2018/01/07/star-wars-the-last-jedi-underperforms-in-china/#4f4f4b116c8a (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccalerner/2018/01/07/star-wars-the-last-jedi-underperforms-in-china/#4f4f4b116c8a)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/13-things-wed-love-to-see-in-a-star-wars-movie-1821791698 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/13-things-wed-love-to-see-in-a-star-wars-movie-1821791698)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 09, 2018, 09:05:26 am
http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/heres-why-the-last-jedi-is-the-least-popular-star-wars-film-of-all-time.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo (http://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/heres-why-the-last-jedi-is-the-least-popular-star-wars-film-of-all-time.html/?ref=YF&yptr=yahoo)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/09/the-last-jedi-puts-unfair-pressure-on-solo-a-star-wars-story/#7142064b12a2 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/09/the-last-jedi-puts-unfair-pressure-on-solo-a-star-wars-story/#7142064b12a2)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 10, 2018, 07:19:58 am
Quote
ďIn this particular story, itís much more like the original trilogy, where with Snoke if you think about the actual scenes, if suddenly I had paused one of the scenes to give a 30 second monologue about who he was, it would have kind of stopped the scene in its tracks, I realized. Even though it could have been interesting, something that fans were interested in, as storytellers, we have to kind of serve what the scenes need to be. It was a tough thing, even though I knew some fans were interested in it I also knew it wasnít something that dramatically had a place in this movie. Hopefully it can be addressed elsewhere or even J.J. may address it in the next movie. But itís not something thatís particularly interesting to Rey, so we kind of had to follow through.


This is such bullsh*t.

You had time for Luke to milk an alien.

You had time for Porgs

You had time the way overly long casino garbage

you had time for a gag joke the start the movie that was 30 seconds too long.


You didn't have time for Luke to tell Rey who Snoke was? Rey couldn't have asked a simple "who is Snoke" and Luke answer?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 10, 2018, 07:39:26 am
I agree with you. Disney (Lucasfilm/Kathleen Kennedy) has shown through their Star Wars films so far that it really doesnít have an overarching vision for Star Wars. TFA was too much a copy of ANH and TLJ did incorporate influences from other SW films but also they gave Johnson a bit too much leeway to deconstruct things. Further, I heard there were big changes done with Rogue One and there was the switching of directors for Solo, which tells me there isnít a steady hand guiding this franchise. They havenít found a successful formula yet, and in part perhaps because Star Wars isnít really special for them. Itís just another franchise to make money off of. That being said, I do think Kennedy is infusing her Star Wars with a more pronounced feminism and a white liberal idea of diversity, but for the most part I donít think itís meshing well in the saga films because at the core there isnít much there.

And now that Johnson is starting to back track a little on what he did in the film and saying stuff like it might be addressed in the next film just reinforces that Disney is making this stuff up as they go along.

I get that Johnson as an artist has to do what he feels is right, but he also should realize that Star Wars isnít his personal thing, itís part of larger behemoth, and he needed to leave the franchise in a better position than he found it. Box office notwithstanding, the noticeable backlash, the weak fan scores on Rotten Tomatoes, the flurry of media articles discussing the backlash instead of all the coverage being about how awesome another installment of Star Wars is, has tarnished the brand.

I donít think Snoke needed to have a speech that halted things to announce who he is. Luke couldíve easily said that he was Plagueis or the first (Prime) Jedi. Or Rey couldíve discovered that in that cave scene instead of just seeing multiple versions of herself. Canto Bight couldíve been excised from the film entirely, and whatever points that Johnson wanted to make there about both sides being bad or war profiteering couldíve been done in a different way.

Johnson made some bad calls in this film and while he hasnít admitted that he is sweating a bit. If Abrams actually gives Snoke an identity, makes Reyís parents more central to the Star Wars saga, and features a more heroic Luke, I wonder how all the TLJ defenders will feel then?
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vic Vega on January 10, 2018, 09:32:36 am
Emperor Palpatine is even named as such in the first two Star Wars films let alone given a backstory.

He's just called "The Emperor" thruout the original trilogy and only actually shows up in the same movie
he got killed off in: Return of the Jedi.

If you wanted to know what Palpatine's name and backstory as a Senator, you had to read the novelization of Star Wars.

We didn't find out Palp's deal 'til decades later (unless it was fleshed out in books that I don't care about).

But the fandom is now angrily demanding stuff it didn't get the first time around, because they got so used to the Expanded Universe and the Wikis and the whatnot  that they forgot that nearly all that stuff they love so much was added after the fact years later and was never in most of the movies.

That was the main problem of the prequels, they spent hours answering questions that a general audience never asked and didn't care about.

I could have lived my entire life happily not knowing who built C-3PO or how the O.G. Jedi pick their candidates.

As some point Disney is going to have to make the same decision that Paramount made with Trek: there was decades of canon that only Trek fans care about but nobody else does.

So they kicked all the old continuity and let the Trek fans either like it or lump it.

Do you make Star Wars fans happy or do you make a modern movie audience happy? Maybe you can't do both. People aren't mad at this movie for a failure in craft, they are mad because their particular area of fandom isn't validated in some way.

The grumblers who bitched about the last movie got what they said wanted: surprises and a swift kick to the junk of the status quo.

The heads talking about Grey Jedi and Jolee Bindo and how the Jedi suck and "why is it always Skywalkers?" also got what they wanted.

Watching them all go "We didn't mean it like THIS!" makes me laugh, frankly.


Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 10, 2018, 10:20:50 am
Emperor Palpatine is even named as such in the first two Star Wars films let alone given a backstory.


I personally don't think this is a fair argument.

the difference is that the original trilogy was setting the rules of the universe. It had nothign to "fit" into.

From what you can gather from the OT (if I remember correctly) is that Emperor was he was "the boss," Vader's master. And we discovered really strong in the force/force lightning. And also strong enough to keep the walking death Vader as his subordinate.

His backstory was irrelevant to that.

I don't think the same applies to Snoke. Through 6 movies, a multi seasonal cartoon series, and other stuff... they already established a universe with certain rules. And if you want to throw out the cartoons as well (which is fine, even if they are canon, no normie is gonan watch them i suppose) the rules get even more strict.

The movies establish dark side users as sith. That there is always only 2... master and apprentice. And in the case in the movies, thats the Emperor and Vader.

What the new trilogy has done is go, "nope, more darkside users." And if you go JUST by the movies... there is 100% nothing differentiating these guys from Sith. I don't even know if there have been anything besides interviews that say they aren't sith (I don't follow novels and comics that closely). Hell, even Kylo i believe to Rey says something like "no more sith, no more jedi" during his kill the past speech.

I think that warrants at least a quick explanation on how someone as powerful as Snoke appeared. And an explanation on how he isn't a sith when they talk, walk, and act like sith. You are talking about a guy that not only recreated the new empire clones but also turned a skywalker/solo to the dark side right under Luke's noe. And Luke knew it.

Snoke is much more influential to the plot points of the new trilogy than the Emperor was to the OT

JMO though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 10, 2018, 02:40:18 pm
Emperor Palpatine is even named as such in the first two Star Wars films let alone given a backstory.

He's just called "The Emperor" thruout the original trilogy and only actually shows up in the same movie
he got killed off in: Return of the Jedi.

If you wanted to know what Palpatine's name and backstory as a Senator, you had to read the novelization of Star Wars.

We didn't find out Palp's deal 'til decades later (unless it was fleshed out in books that I don't care about).

But the fandom is now angrily demanding stuff it didn't get the first time around, because they got so used to the Expanded Universe and the Wikis and the whatnot  that they forgot that nearly all that stuff they love so much was added after the fact years later and was never in most of the movies.

That was the main problem of the prequels, they spent hours answering questions that a general audience never asked and didn't care about.

I could have lived my entire life happily not knowing who built C-3PO or how the O.G. Jedi pick their candidates.

As some point Disney is going to have to make the same decision that Paramount made with Trek: there was decades of canon that only Trek fans care about but nobody else does.

So they kicked all the old continuity and let the Trek fans either like it or lump it.

Do you make Star Wars fans happy or do you make a modern movie audience happy? Maybe you can't do both. People aren't mad at this movie for a failure in craft, they are mad because their particular area of fandom isn't validated in some way.

The grumblers who bitched about the last movie got what they said wanted: surprises and a swift kick to the junk of the status quo.

The heads talking about Grey Jedi and Jolee Bindo and how the Jedi suck and "why is it always Skywalkers?" also got what they wanted.

Watching them all go "We didn't mean it like THIS!" makes me laugh, frankly.

First off, youíre making an assumption that a lot of the fans who have issues with the lack of info on Snoke read the EU books or comics. The number of EU fans are a small segment of Star Wars moviegoers. Admittedly, I am one of those people, but I canít say thatís everyone. TFA did make him this mysterious person that raised questions, as well as about Reyís parents. Her search for who she was, was a big part of both TFA and TLJ so I can see why people would feel unsatisfied about not getting those answers, or Johnson flippantly saying those answers donít matter.

I disagree with you about the crux of the issue with the prequels. It is a fair point that the prequels likely didnít meet with expectations, especially for old fans who had imagined what the Clone Wars might have been like before we actually saw them, but I see the general issues with the prequels as one of quality, not one of story. People were very excited aboud the Phantom Menace and even though there was less excitement for the other prequel films, both still made tons of money (the main argument being used to silence TLJ critics).

I think you present a very good take on the question facing aging franchises, but I also feel itís a false choice. I think you can honor the past and honor continuity (and canon Star Wars films have a lot less continuity than live-action Star Trek does) without crapping on the fans. If you can respect what came before and retain the spirit of the franchise I donít get why that has to be an either/or situation. And Disney/Lucasfilm has decided we are going to crap on the old fans to some extent. So if you do that, if you attack the root, and not bring them along by supporting it, the tree is going to fall. Disney has not removed the trappings of Star Wars-the First Order/Empire, The Rebellion/Resistance, TIE Fighters, X-Wings, The Force, lightsabers, but is that what makes Star Wars solely? Or is it the characters? Removing those old characters (and often in a disrespectful way) and then barely doing anything interesting with the tropes is a hollowing out of Star Wars.

Star Trek has also run into some problems, but even Discovery, which is getting hit by some fan backlash (some of from the anti-ďSJWĒ crowd, some from continuity hawks, some from people who donít like the new focus on war, violence, and some who donít like that the show is on CBS All Access) it still pays more respect to what came before. Each incarnation of Trek lets the old heroes remain heroes. It doesnít mean they are perfect, they arenít, but Trek has found a way to honor the past while moving forward far better than Star Wars has.

And thereís this disdain for nostalgia while also reaping tons of money from said nostalgia. Itís not the casual fans who are buying all the ancillary material, who will watch a Star Wars film multiple times, who will keep interest in the franchise going in the lean months between films or shows, and that goes for Star Trek or basically another other big franchise as well.

As for Snoke and the Emperor, youíve already mentioned the points I have that I feel undermine that argument. Itís hard to compare the first three films in a 40 year franchise to the eighth film. By this time we have seen Palpatineís backstory fleshed out a good deal in the prequels and in novels, comics, so why wouldnít fans expect that there was more to Snoke than what we got? Why try to do a clone of Palpatine in a sense? How original, fresh, and bold is that? Why recycle that, like they recycled so much in TFA? It just shows a lack of vision and creativity to push the story forward. And the EU does offer some ideas about how to create different villains or even how to handle the Empire post-ROTJ that didnít need to be dismissed, since TFA likely borrowed from it anyway.

I didn't care about Grey Jedi, though that's where the film was seemingly going with Rey and Kylo, so why not? That builds on the mythology in a more coherent way than we got in TLJ. Instead of just having it be about one of Kylo's needy mood shifts or Rey's insecurities about her parentage. Those can be driving it but at least the Grey Jedi thing provides something concrete to either hide their true motivations behind or to stand on.

I did want Rey's parents to be 'someone', the 'nobodies' thing isn't horrible, but it's not like we haven't see heroes from humble origins before in Star Wars. I did want Snoke to be Plagueis but I also liked the idea of the Prime Jedi as well. That would short hand tell me that this guy is a major deal and easily explain why he was able to build the First Order and bring Ben Solo to the dark side. Even Johnson provided some rationale about why Luke went into exile, so the idea of providing backstory and motivation isn't completely anathema to the new Star Wars. I do think the problems with TLJ also had an origin in the poorly thought out TFA. That did rely on nostalgia and solid film making, but there wasn't much there. And it's odd that J.J. Abrams, who wasn't a Trek fan really, honored Trek with his 2009 film in how they handled Spock and made him a more integral part of that film in passing the torch than how TFA and now TLJ handled it's original heroes. There are people who disliked the Abrams films, for a variety of reasons. (I wasn't the biggest fan of Into Darkness because of the use of Khan and how he was cast, to be honest), but the treatment of Spock Prime is something I haven't heard people complain about much. (Though I did think he was shoehorned into Into Darkness. And that film did him a bit of a disservice, but I digress.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 10, 2018, 02:58:00 pm
Emperor Palpatine is even named as such in the first two Star Wars films let alone given a backstory.


I personally don't think this is a fair argument.

the difference is that the original trilogy was setting the rules of the universe. It had nothign to "fit" into.

From what you can gather from the OT (if I remember correctly) is that Emperor was he was "the boss," Vader's master. And we discovered really strong in the force/force lightning. And also strong enough to keep the walking death Vader as his subordinate.

His backstory was irrelevant to that.

I don't think the same applies to Snoke. Through 6 movies, a multi seasonal cartoon series, and other stuff... they already established a universe with certain rules. And if you want to throw out the cartoons as well (which is fine, even if they are canon, no normie is gonan watch them i suppose) the rules get even more strict.

The movies establish dark side users as sith. That there is always only 2... master and apprentice. And in the case in the movies, thats the Emperor and Vader.

What the new trilogy has done is go, "nope, more darkside users." And if you go JUST by the movies... there is 100% nothing differentiating these guys from Sith. I don't even know if there have been anything besides interviews that say they aren't sith (I don't follow novels and comics that closely). Hell, even Kylo i believe to Rey says something like "no more sith, no more jedi" during his kill the past speech.

I think that warrants at least a quick explanation on how someone as powerful as Snoke appeared. And an explanation on how he isn't a sith when they talk, walk, and act like sith. You are talking about a guy that not only recreated the new empire clones but also turned a skywalker/solo to the dark side right under Luke's noe. And Luke knew it.

Snoke is much more influential to the plot points of the new trilogy than the Emperor was to the OT

JMO though.

I pretty much agree. I also feel that Vader was put forward more as the main antagonist (though there is that confusion a bit about where Tarkin fits in in ANH where he can give Vader orders) in the original films. Ren is the main villain, but by the end of TFA we see that he isn't the most powerful villain by the end. TFA establishes that Ren is an apprentice of Snoke so that does raise questions about who Snoke is, and how he fits into the story. And Lucasfilm also added to that by saying Snoke was around during the original trilogy time, that he saw the rise and fall of the Empire, which adds more questions. To easily tie it into the whole saga Snoke could've been Plagueis or an Inquisitor from Rebels, which could also get more viewers for Rebels. They took Saw Gerrera from Clone Wars and put him in Rogue One and then also had him on Rebels. Disney could've created more of a synergy between the live-action and cartoons.

Let me add, that some fan service in the films might create new long-term fans. It could raise intriguing characters and questions that can be further fleshed out in novels and comics and the new fans can get into them that way, same as old fans can learn more about them. Old fans were new fans at some point and they just took the steps to learn more about whatever it was that intrigued them about the property in the first place. Hollowing out Star Wars pisses off some (not all) old fans while making Star Wars more like any other Hollywood blockbuster and doesnít insure audience loyalty going forward.

That being said, a leviathan like Star Wars should not fall into the habit of just passing off stuff that should be addressed in itís films to its vast ancillary products. Itís in a rare position to do that, but if they get into that habit I think it will weaken the films, which are the main drivers. Already this saturation of Star Wars, with a film every year, is something I felt was going to dilute the brand, in time anyway.

Can you find a way to work within continuity, build on it without seeing it as an obstacle? Sometimes it feels like the dismissing of continuity is more because people donít want to do the research. And it makes me wonder if they even really know what makes a particular franchise special, what made it popular? Itís more than putting a new coat of paint on something.

Sometimes some big deconstruction or rebooting of a franchise is welcome, like Battlestar Galactica. But that was possible because the original was a Ďfailedí one-season show, not counting the spin off Galatica 1980, yet it had enough of a name out there to be able to tweak some nostalgia. And it did that, eventually more as the show went on. Star Wars was going pretty strong-despite the dip due to the prequels-so it didnít need surgery. Even Star Trek, before 2009, was in trouble after Star Trek Nemesis and Enterprise. Unfortunately, Into Darkness eroded the interest generated by the 2009 film. TLJ could be the Into Darkness of the Trek universe, though that remains to be seen.

With TLJ there is grumbling about Luke among other things. But there were also story and character problems with TLJ. Itís a great looking film, but it did have story and character issues. The sequel characters, IMO, arenít that interesting, nor is the conflict thatís been presented, and I think that is also a problem. My own concerns would be lessened (though not erased) if they at least gave me characters I care about and a conflict better explained.

I mean, what is Reyís journey? What is Finnís purpose? Who is Poe? And itís not like you need two hours each to explain those questions. The original trilogy did it very well, giving you the essence of who Han, Luke, and Leia were without each needing a solo film (pun intended). Why did Ben turn to the dark side? Why did Luke feel he was beyond redemption? Just what hold does/did Snoke have on him? I have to wonder if the Lucasfilm people really even asked themselves any of these questions.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 10, 2018, 03:22:42 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/10/box-office-why-the-last-jedi-may-become-leggier-than-rogue-one/#506fc4bf7f0e (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/10/box-office-why-the-last-jedi-may-become-leggier-than-rogue-one/#506fc4bf7f0e)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/01/09/will-we-ever-see-an-expansion-of-lord-of-the-rings-canon-as-we-did-with-star-wars/#2d01b1415f9f (http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/01/09/will-we-ever-see-an-expansion-of-lord-of-the-rings-canon-as-we-did-with-star-wars/#2d01b1415f9f)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 11, 2018, 04:48:44 am
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-true-story-behind-hans-dice-and-more-last-jedi-sec-1821971853 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-true-story-behind-hans-dice-and-more-last-jedi-sec-1821971853)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-explained-by-know-1073856 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-explained-by-know-1073856)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-offers-a-perfect-explanation-for-the-movies-biggest-plot-hole-a156937 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-offers-a-perfect-explanation-for-the-movies-biggest-plot-hole-a156937)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-last-jedi-apos-editor-140136283.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-last-jedi-apos-editor-140136283.html)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/no-a-new-star-wars-comic-does-not-explain-reys-force-a-1821998315 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/no-a-new-star-wars-comic-does-not-explain-reys-force-a-1821998315)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/11/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-zooming-past-fate-of-the-furious-today/#4bb5b2b71378 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/11/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-zooming-past-fate-of-the-furious-today/#4bb5b2b71378)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/11/7-days-into-its-release-chinese-theaters-abandon-the-last-jedi-dumping-92-of-its-screenings/#937112a5cc00 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/11/7-days-into-its-release-chinese-theaters-abandon-the-last-jedi-dumping-92-of-its-screenings/#937112a5cc00)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 11, 2018, 04:00:13 pm
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09c0MXDxto#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 12, 2018, 01:30:43 pm
http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-perfectly-explains-lukes-appearance-at-the-1821996957 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-perfectly-explains-lukes-appearance-at-the-1821996957)

http://www.yahoo.com/movies/luke-skywalker-needed-die-last-jedi-return-episode-ix-145008186.html (http://www.yahoo.com/movies/luke-skywalker-needed-die-last-jedi-return-episode-ix-145008186.html)

http://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/12/16834684/the-last-jedi-lost-its-nerve (http://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/12/16834684/the-last-jedi-lost-its-nerve)

http://warontherocks.com/2017/12/clausewitz-last-jedi-culminating-points-victory-civil-military-relations-strategy-star-wars/ (http://warontherocks.com/2017/12/clausewitz-last-jedi-culminating-points-victory-civil-military-relations-strategy-star-wars/)

http://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-star-wars-toxic-relationship/ (http://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-star-wars-toxic-relationship/)

https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-failed-poe-dameron-holdo/ (https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-failed-poe-dameron-holdo/)

http://nerdist.com/poe-dameron-villain-star-wars-last-jedi/ (http://nerdist.com/poe-dameron-villain-star-wars-last-jedi/)

http://nerdist.com/star-wars-has-a-massive-villain-problem/ (http://nerdist.com/star-wars-has-a-massive-villain-problem/)

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454739/it-could-have-been-great-my-spoiler-heavy-critique-last-jedi (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/454739/it-could-have-been-great-my-spoiler-heavy-critique-last-jedi)

http://www.polygon.com/2017/12/29/16830912/star-wars-last-jedi-prequels-jedi-order-evil (http://www.polygon.com/2017/12/29/16830912/star-wars-last-jedi-prequels-jedi-order-evil)



Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 12, 2018, 02:06:58 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/12/box-office-the-last-jedi-only-made-1-235-billion-in-its-first-month/#58d77bae3e76 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/12/box-office-the-last-jedi-only-made-1-235-billion-in-its-first-month/#58d77bae3e76)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/12/last-jedi-sets-new-global-record-with-94-friday-to-friday-box-office-plunge-in-china/#76084da673a1 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/12/last-jedi-sets-new-global-record-with-94-friday-to-friday-box-office-plunge-in-china/#76084da673a1)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/12/hollywood-broke-monthly-u-s-box-office-records-four-times-in-2017/#63092b4964a7 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/12/hollywood-broke-monthly-u-s-box-office-records-four-times-in-2017/#63092b4964a7)

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/luke-skywalker-needed-die-last-jedi-return-episode-ix-145008186.html (http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/luke-skywalker-needed-die-last-jedi-return-episode-ix-145008186.html)

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-approaches-11-spot-on-all-time-highest-grossing-list-but-flops-in-china-a156975 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-approaches-11-spot-on-all-time-highest-grossing-list-but-flops-in-china-a156975)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 14, 2018, 07:55:29 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/13/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-falls-to-7th-as-jumanji-tops-friday/#79700e0428a7 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/13/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-falls-to-7th-as-jumanji-tops-friday/#79700e0428a7)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/13/jumanji-pounces-to-solid-39m-china-debut-last-jedi-plunges-95-coco-still-strong/#8b140605e951 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/13/jumanji-pounces-to-solid-39m-china-debut-last-jedi-plunges-95-coco-still-strong/#8b140605e951)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 14, 2018, 01:20:56 pm
http://shadowandact.com/on-star-wars-and-the-ponzi-scheme-of-racial-inclusion (http://shadowandact.com/on-star-wars-and-the-ponzi-scheme-of-racial-inclusion)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 15, 2018, 04:59:21 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/14/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-finally-2017s-biggest-movie/#29961efd1159 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/14/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-finally-2017s-biggest-movie/#29961efd1159)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 16, 2018, 06:14:54 am
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-expanded-universe-story-that-lead-to-lucasfilm-re-w-1822092518 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-expanded-universe-story-that-lead-to-lucasfilm-re-w-1822092518)

This sounds fishy to me. If Disney/Lucasfilm 'cared' so much for the fans and about Chewbacca why has he been relatively sidelined in the sequel films? And why have they killed off both Han and Luke? And why have they turned the original heroes into failures for the most part? Just sounds like Disney taking another swipe at the EU (i.e. old fans). Obviously Lucas himself was selective about what he took from the EU and what he left behind, and further, Clone Wars overwrote some stuff from the EU. Disney could've done the same thing. And Disney is continuing to be selective in re-canonizing EU characters and planets on Rebels. It wouldn't have been much of a stretch to bring over a lot of the EU they liked and been clear about saying we are overwriting Chewbacca's death, which I think some EU fans would've been happy about because Chewbacca's death in the NJO wasn't well-received by some. Further, Disney/Lucasfilm to some extent have mimicked the EU anyway. Rey is similar to Jaina Solo. Kylo Ren is similar to Jacen Solo. I can't think of any ready analogies for Finn and Poe. Poe perhaps takes aspects of Kyp Durron, but for Finn, nothing comes to mind. There might be a more direct inspiration for Poe in the EU but I wasn't a fan of the X-wing series or characters much so I'm likely missing someone.

There is also a New Republic in the EU and there's an Imperial Remnant, the remains of the Galactic Empire. There's even an incredibly powerful dark side user who isn't a Sith like Snoke in Abeloth who was the main villain of The Fate of the Jedi novel series, the last big EU novel series.

What the EU did though was build the Jedi Order, not tear it down. It introduced a lot more Jedi. It also created at least three major enemies besides the Sith. I'm looking at when Del Ray took over the novel line. There were also alien antagonists during the Bantam run but I didn't read those books. For the Del Ray run there was the Yuuzhan Vong, the insectoid Killiks, and Abeloth. There were also other Sith like Lumiya, Caedus, the Lost Tribe of Sith, and the One Sith. I thought there were a lot of cool things in the EU, much cooler than what we've got so far in the sequels and I wish Disney wasn't so hellbent on throwing shade at the EU instead of adapting parts of it.

I think they should adapt:
Thrawn trilogy
Dark Empire
New Jedi Order (Yuuzhan Vong War)
Legacy of the Force
Fate of the Jedi

If they did that they would have movies to last for about 20 or more years, that have more of a cohesive vision than the herky jerky approach Disney is taking now.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/everything-star-wars-has-reintroduced-from-the-old-expa-1792224856 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/everything-star-wars-has-reintroduced-from-the-old-expa-1792224856)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 16, 2018, 06:17:43 am
i cant remember a thing Chewie has done other than shoot a couple people and then kylo with the bow staff thing

(of course i cant remember much of what he's done in the OT either lol)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 16, 2018, 06:27:13 am
http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/16/star-wars-the-last-jedi-let-the-past-die-rian-johnson/ (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/16/star-wars-the-last-jedi-let-the-past-die-rian-johnson/)

I just skimmed this. I feel like Johnson is backtracking. And it's odd to start backing off from the film since it's the top grossing film of last year. Perhaps Disney senses that the mixed reaction by a likely small, yet vocal minority, rocked them a little.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/15/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-was-never-sink-or-swim-for-disney/#70ee5a9f3d0c (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/15/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-was-never-sink-or-swim-for-disney/#70ee5a9f3d0c)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 16, 2018, 06:34:26 am
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269704/star-wars-the-last-jedi-easter-eggs-reference-guide (http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/269704/star-wars-the-last-jedi-easter-eggs-reference-guide)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-explains-leias-big-last-jedi-move-again-fo-1822114425 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-explains-leias-big-last-jedi-move-again-fo-1822114425)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 17, 2018, 11:37:28 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-bombs-in-china-as-disney-pulls-it-from-theaters-a157088 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-bombs-in-china-as-disney-pulls-it-from-theaters-a157088)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/17/can-the-1-3b-grossing-star-wars-the-last-jedi-recover-after-bombing-in-china/#231acbe7cbf4 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/17/can-the-1-3b-grossing-star-wars-the-last-jedi-recover-after-bombing-in-china/#231acbe7cbf4)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/17/china-strikes-back-at-last-jedi-with-lowest-gross-for-a-mega-budget-hollywood-movie-since-2013/#464bfd4522dc (http://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2018/01/17/china-strikes-back-at-last-jedi-with-lowest-gross-for-a-mega-budget-hollywood-movie-since-2013/#464bfd4522dc)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 17, 2018, 12:58:30 pm
http://geektyrant.com/news/joseph-gordon-levitt-defends-star-wars-the-last-jedi-in-an-essay-he-wrote (http://geektyrant.com/news/joseph-gordon-levitt-defends-star-wars-the-last-jedi-in-an-essay-he-wrote)

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtbmz_ASO9c#)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 18, 2018, 06:53:16 am
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-elaborates-on-why-we-didnt-see-the-knights-of-ren-a157112 (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-rian-johnson-elaborates-on-why-we-didnt-see-the-knights-of-ren-a157112)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-didnt-want-the-knights-of-ren-in-the-last-1822192164 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-didnt-want-the-knights-of-ren-in-the-last-1822192164)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2018/01/18/did-chewbaccas-death-reset-the-star-wars-canon/#57b0566253d5 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2018/01/18/did-chewbaccas-death-reset-the-star-wars-canon/#57b0566253d5)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 20, 2018, 05:11:25 am
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-leia-force-use-explained/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-leia-force-use-explained/)

http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-rian-johnson-force-projection-canon/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-rian-johnson-force-projection-canon/)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2018/01/19/star-wars-the-last-jedi-heads-toward-final-global-total-of-1-3-billion/#7f7c56094a56 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2018/01/19/star-wars-the-last-jedi-heads-toward-final-global-total-of-1-3-billion/#7f7c56094a56)

Perhaps engaging  on social media is just a normal thing now, but it feels to me that Johnson defending the film, searching for proof to back up his creative decisions just feels weak, like he's overly defensive. I had some issues with the film-the Force powers not being one of them-but dude, the film has earned over a billion, it's the highest grossing film of 2017, and currently he has three more Star Wars films to make (though I am skeptical about that, but it's in the news) so why is he wasting time defending (or at best explaining) his decisions on social media?

It shows me that despite the monstrous box office that Disney/Lucasfilm didn't get the complete reaction they wanted. They aren't going to exceed Force Awakens and this film isn't as universally embraced as TFA was, back when it came out, and that could be a trouble sign down the road for future films. Ergo, Johnson out defending his film, the Hollywood press touting the film's box office success, and also criticizing detractors and providing 'justifications' for the film's story/character choices. It almost feels like a full court press to salvage the reputation of the movie. the box office is good, but I see it more now having a perception problem and Disney wants to take care of that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 21, 2018, 01:16:47 pm
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/21/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-zooms-past-600m-in-37-days/#5232b58241ff (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/21/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-zooms-past-600m-in-37-days/#5232b58241ff)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/20/star-wars-shocker-last-jedi-needed-37-whole-days-to-top-600m/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/20/star-wars-shocker-last-jedi-needed-37-whole-days-to-top-600m/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 22, 2018, 07:56:03 am
http://io9.gizmodo.com/of-course-rian-johnson-and-mark-hamill-have-thoughts-ab-1822276926 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/of-course-rian-johnson-and-mark-hamill-have-thoughts-ab-1822276926)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/22/box-office-6-reasons-the-last-jedi-grossed-750m-less-than-the-force-awakens/#722430433432 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/22/box-office-6-reasons-the-last-jedi-grossed-750m-less-than-the-force-awakens/#722430433432)

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: stanleyballard on January 24, 2018, 04:24:52 pm
Saw it once and it was ok but not what I would go see again.  None of the characters were treated with much care or depth and it has lost its magic.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 24, 2018, 04:46:21 pm
Saw it once and it was ok but not what I would go see again.  None of the characters were treated with much care or depth and it has lost its magic.

Definitely can relate to that. I saw it twice, but that is usually a given for me when it comes to Star Wars. I do think the new films have lost the magic of the Lucas films, even the prequels. The Hollywood media and the film's online backers can spin it and defend the 'bold' choices made but I think TLJ left the franchise overall in a weaker position. The box office was strong regardless but we'll see how it is in several more years. There's one flesh and blood person I know who liked it but it wasn't like he was going gaga over it. I think he only saw it once, but I'm not certain on that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 25, 2018, 05:43:03 am
http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-the-first-footage-from-the-last-jedi-deleted-scen-1822394925 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-the-first-footage-from-the-last-jedi-deleted-scen-1822394925)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/we-may-not-have-seen-hans-funeral-in-the-last-jedi-but-1822390761 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/we-may-not-have-seen-hans-funeral-in-the-last-jedi-but-1822390761)

http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-holdo-maneuver-plot-hole/ (http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-holdo-maneuver-plot-hole/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 25, 2018, 05:48:26 am
Saw it once and it was ok but not what I would go see again.  None of the characters were treated with much care or depth and it has lost its magic.

Definitely can relate to that. I saw it twice, but that is usually a given for me when it comes to Star Wars. I do think the new films have lost the magic of the Lucas films, even the prequels. The Hollywood media and the film's online backers can spin it and defend the 'bold' choices made but I think TLJ left the franchise overall in a weaker position. The box office was strong regardless but we'll see how it is in several more years. There's one flesh and blood person I know who liked it but it wasn't like he was going gaga over it. I think he only saw it once, but I'm not certain on that.

my white female coworker loves everything Rey and thinks Kylo is hot.

She didn't like what they did without any of the old characters (esp that Fischer is dead in real life now) but she is still all about it because of Rey
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 25, 2018, 06:30:31 am
I can get that. Rey is a symbol for some of white female power and agency. I don't think she works as a character personally, but sometimes that doesn't matter so much as what Rey represents. As a 40 plus black man Rey's representational power or importance has almost a zero hold on me, but I have to keep in mind that different people see and receive Rey and the other characters perhaps differently, though I can't see blacks and Latinos going gaga over Finn and Poe, though I could be wrong in that as well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on January 25, 2018, 06:38:52 am
I think Poe is going to have an interesting character arc.

Fly boy to arrogant fool (thats still great at flying) to what will likely be a leadership position next movie (everyone else is dead lol) where he "learned from Laea and Purple Hair lady

Now finn... I got nothing for Finn. IDK what you even do with him now but w/e
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 26, 2018, 03:54:35 pm
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-fascinating-ways-star-wars-and-star-trek-are-challe-1822393816 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-fascinating-ways-star-wars-and-star-trek-are-challe-1822393816)

http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-porn-star-stormy-daniels-donald-trump/ (http://www.cbr.com/last-jedi-porn-star-stormy-daniels-donald-trump/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 27, 2018, 05:46:42 am
http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/241301/43-canceled-star-wars-projects (http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/241301/43-canceled-star-wars-projects)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on January 30, 2018, 05:33:04 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/28/why-star-wars-the-last-jedi-with-just-1-3b-worldwide-is-still-a-win-for-disney/#20368057f2d3 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/01/28/why-star-wars-the-last-jedi-with-just-1-3b-worldwide-is-still-a-win-for-disney/#20368057f2d3)

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/29/star-wars-the-last-jedi-10-best-moments/#5 (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/29/star-wars-the-last-jedi-10-best-moments/#5)

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/29/star-wars-legends-characters-join-canon-movies-tv/#4 (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/29/star-wars-legends-characters-join-canon-movies-tv/#4)

Interesting choices there for who to pull from the EU to bring into the new films/Star Wars canon.

Unfortunately I don't think most of these choices work. Jaina and Jacen are already there, to some extent with Ren and Rey. How Luke and his Jedi Academy were handled messes up  bringing in Lowbacca, unless they put him in future films under Rey's tutelage perhaps (though they could do a film set between Episodes 6 and 7). I also think that's a problem with Mara Jade as well. How TLJ handled Luke makes it hard to bring Mara Jade in as the wife of Luke, unless she left him after Ben Solo's betrayal. Mara could be the Jedi master that does properly train Rey, but that raises questions about why she left Luke and why she wasn't pursuing him all this time. I think not including Galen Marek, and more importantly Sam Witwer who voiced him and is the likeness for the character, was a missed opportunity. He's put in work for Star Wars, voicing Darth Maul for example, and would've made for a more credible villain than what we've gotten. If Marek (the Dark Apprentice clone version) was Snoke I would be okay with that. Marek is like the dark son of Vader, the spurned son perhaps.  He's incredibly powerful in the Force but isn't a Sith. He was around during the time of the Empire so that checks that box, and since he's not a Sith that would explain why Ben Solo isn't a Sith either. Marek has some training but not complete. And he is a Vader devotee who would have intimate knowledge of Vader to lure Solo to his side.

Characters like Revan, Nihilus, Satele Shan are all Old Republic and I don't see them fitting into the current trilogy. Now one set in the Old Republic era, sure. But unless Nihilus, Shan, and Revan are extremely long-lived I don't see them showing up in Episode 9. It would be great to see Nihilus and Revan though because stronger enemies are needed.

What EU/canon characters I would like to see in live-action:
Darth Plagueis, Mara Jade, Quinlan Vos, Lumiya, Asajj Ventress, Ahsoka Tano, Ben Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Yuuzhan Vong, Jahan Cross, Vergere, Exar Kun, Kir Kanos, Carnor Jax, Vestara Khai, Lost Tribe of Sith, Borsk Fey'lya, One Sith, Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Darth Cognus, Darth Tenebrous, Galen Marek, Dace Diath, Darth Malgus, Darth Vitiate, Dician, Zayne Carrick, Maris Brood, Jolee Bindo, K'Kruhk, Durge, Joruus C'baoth, Dash Rendar, Xizor, Ganner Rhysode, Saes Rrogon, Eldra Kaitis, Alema Rar, Saba Sebatyne, Darsha Assant, Vornskr,  Palpatine Clone (Dark Empire).

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on February 04, 2018, 06:21:43 pm
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-hux-humor/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-hux-humor/)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on February 12, 2018, 04:16:55 pm
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-why-arent-filmmakers-as-inclusive-as-universe-1082736 (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-why-arent-filmmakers-as-inclusive-as-universe-1082736)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: Emperorjones on February 14, 2018, 04:38:03 am
http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-home-release-dates/ (http://www.cbr.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-home-release-dates/)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/02/15/chinas-indifference-to-star-wars-spiked-last-jedis-worldwide-box-office/#558acac84d74 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2018/02/15/chinas-indifference-to-star-wars-spiked-last-jedis-worldwide-box-office/#558acac84d74)

http://io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-calls-out-sexist-last-jedi-critics-for-bein-1823084646 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-calls-out-sexist-last-jedi-critics-for-bein-1823084646)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: MindofShadow on March 15, 2018, 05:13:17 am
So apparently, the new Star Wars novel says that Rey was able to fight those red guards so well because she absorbed the knowledge from Kylo when they did the force bond thing.

That.... has got to be the laziest bit of writing I have ever seen. And is also completely nonsensical... if that was a force power, Jedi and siths would have been doing it for generations. You cut out all the damn training.


In other news, some threads are saying that TLJ toys selling so poorly is what lead to ToysRUs to go from "closing few stores" to "liquidate everything."


I will be really curious to see what happens after Episode IX. Some of the outrage with TLJ seems like typical fan sh*t, but the failure in China, failure in toys... something feels off.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
Post by: BmoreAkuma on April 19, 2018, 06:31:23 am
Going to say my piece finally. This film was a waste of time. Finn was RUNNING AGAIN and blerds still want to cheer this guy on? Rose fangirling over this space janitor for no damn reason. Poe caused the deaths of more soldiers than even Vader himself to satisfy his ego. The fact at a "YO MAMA" joke at the fraking beginning of the film?