Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 12:33:37 pm

Title: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 12:33:37 pm
"Ta-Nehisi Coates has humanized him"  :)

"Ta-Nehisi Coates has made him more relatable"

I hear these white folks, lgbt bandwagoners and new blacks say this a lot. 

Personally, I don't want my T'Challa humanized or relatable.  I want him to kick your favorite character's ass! (unless your favorite character is T'Challa) and have a bad female waiting for him back at the crib mansion.

But I am a simple man with simple desires. 


Terminal Objective: Share your stance on the "humanizing" (or humbling) of T'Challa as a mechanism to make him more relatable/acceptable/appreciable to those of us who apparently want him to be our personal man-child black Peter Parker.


Questions to Consider:


Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 12:36:32 pm
Aw crap.  Sorry guys, I forgot to set the poll to pick multiple answers   :-\

Can a mod help out? 

Don't forget to vote tho!  It's very important, for research purposes!
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 12, 2017, 01:04:43 pm
I voted for the one I hate least. lol

I don't want a humanized T'challa. That is what real life role models are for.

It might be asking too much, but I want him to be beyond human mentally and spiritually.

He should represent an ideal that with enough training and hard work, you could achieve his level of humanity.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 01:25:30 pm
Funny thing is Priest and Hudlin showed the Human side of T'Challa. Priest had T'Challa struggling with the Aneurysm, and watching his future self die by the very thing that was slowly driving him to become a villain. also to him admitting to Storm that he was afraid and didn't have all the answers. Hudlin Showed the human side with his marriage to Storm. shoeing how much he loved her was the human side of things. humanizing doesn't mean you have to make the character become sh*tty, just things that people can relate to.

Plus I don;t want to relate to T'challa with stupid ass faults that coates created or other OOC showings. T'challa to me is Black Excellence at its peak, He represents the potential of what Africans and AAs could achieve. He is the what I would want to aspire to be
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Vic Vega on May 12, 2017, 01:49:54 pm
Some characters are only improved by having character flaws. Green Arrow was way more interesting as a womanizing deadbeat dad.

Cyclops leaving his wife and kid was the only interesting he'd ever done before turning heel.

I care more about Kasper Cole than the rest of BP's supporting cast put together because I know dudes exactly like him.

In Dragonball Z/GT/Super professional  A-hole Vegita gets to have character development, while Goku hasn't changed since before Z.

B.P.'s worst flaw recently has been intimating in private, that if he had a choice, he'd rather do something else than run Wakanda during a bout of sectarian unrest.

This guy was leading the FF and traveling in Space during Reg's run, so yeah I can see him thinking a throne is pretty underwhelming compared to that.

I don't even consider that a flaw.

 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 02:11:03 pm
I think there is a difference between (a) thinking the throne is underwhelming compared to, say, restoring universes with an infinity guantlet...

...and (b) flat out thinking you're a sh*t king who never wanted to be king despite actual evidence stating that being king and wanting to be king was his greatest desire...

I know (a) and (b) have some similarities (maybe, idk), but i definitely see more potent 'humanizing' in one versus the other.

I know a few guys like Kasper Cole, and that's why i'm largely indifferent to him lol.  I can just go on facebook for that. 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 02:20:29 pm
Funny thing is Priest and Hudlin showed the Human side of T'Challa. Priest had T'Challa struggling with the Aneurysm, and watching his future self die by the very thing that was slowly driving him to become a villain. also to him admitting to Storm that he was afraid and didn't have all the answers. Hudlin Showed the human side with his marriage to Storm. shoeing how much he loved her was the human side of things. humanizing doesn't mean you have to make the character become sh*tty, just things that people can relate to.


Plus I don;t want to relate to T'challa with stupid ass faults that coates created or other OOC showings. T'challa to me is Black Excellence at its peak, He represents the potential of what Africans and AAs could achieve. He is the what I would want to aspire to be


(https://i.imgur.com/Npu4fg4.jpg)

I don't know whether this counts as humanizing or not, but this is better than any humanizing of T'Challa I've seen post Hudlin.  Name one better!  >:(
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: DigiCom on May 12, 2017, 02:22:23 pm
I blame Alan Moore.

Ever since Watchmen, some writers have this fetish for tearing down heroes "to see what makes them tick".  And the more they do it, the more a certain type of fan eats it up, so they keep doing it again, and again, and again, until these "flawed heroes" are nothing but flaws, because that's more "realistic".

I hate "realistic" comics.  I hate deconstructive stories, and arcs that drag the protagonist through the mud, issue after issue, until he (or she) finally comes out the other side... just in time for the writer to leave, and the next one starts the process over again.

Give me escapism.  Give me wonder.  Give me a badass, competent main character. 

Keep the Derida-wank in the scholarly journals, where they belong.  ;D
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 02:36:22 pm
Funny thing is Priest and Hudlin showed the Human side of T'Challa. Priest had T'Challa struggling with the Aneurysm, and watching his future self die by the very thing that was slowly driving him to become a villain. also to him admitting to Storm that he was afraid and didn't have all the answers. Hudlin Showed the human side with his marriage to Storm. shoeing how much he loved her was the human side of things. humanizing doesn't mean you have to make the character become sh*tty, just things that people can relate to.


Plus I don;t want to relate to T'challa with stupid ass faults that coates created or other OOC showings. T'challa to me is Black Excellence at its peak, He represents the potential of what Africans and AAs could achieve. He is the what I would want to aspire to be


(https://i.imgur.com/Npu4fg4.jpg)

I don't know whether this counts as humanizing or not, but this is better than any humanizing of T'Challa I've seen post Hudlin.  Name one better!  >:(

Excatly. that is one of my favorite scenes from Hudlin's Run. And its the number 1 counter to unfans who Claim "T'Challa doesn't care about his people"
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 12, 2017, 02:40:52 pm
Humanizing is a good thing, in my mind.  It means they aren't writing him as a sterotype, or caracture.  Even being a bad ass can be very humanizing or very sterotyping, depending on how it is written.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 03:21:19 pm
Humanizing is a good thing, in my mind.  It means they aren't writing him as a sterotype, or caracture.  Even being a bad ass can be very humanizing or very sterotyping, depending on how it is written.

Priest and Hudlin did great Jobs with BP. Hell Liss had mopey Panther with no resource's and he had the the knowledge that it's not the h2h or Wakanda tech that Makes T'Challa so dangerous. He was wrecking fools with radio shack tech. Tchalla can take on issues but unless he is actually been physically crippled, he shouldn't be so "humanized" that he is no longer a capable hero be it in physical or mental power
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on May 12, 2017, 03:36:35 pm
I blame Alan Moore.

Ever since Watchmen, some writers have this fetish for tearing down heroes "to see what makes them tick".  And the more they do it, the more a certain type of fan eats it up, so they keep doing it again, and again, and again, until these "flawed heroes" are nothing but flaws, because that's more "realistic".

I hate "realistic" comics.  I hate deconstructive stories, and arcs that drag the protagonist through the mud, issue after issue, until he (or she) finally comes out the other side... just in time for the writer to leave, and the next one starts the process over again.

Give me escapism.  Give me wonder.  Give me a badass, competent main character. 

Keep the Derida-wank in the scholarly journals, where they belong.  ;D


Bad writers think "lets see what makes him click" and it cones out tge ither end as "have a bunch of bad sh*t happen until last issue! Just show how sh*tty they are until last second!!!"

The good ones can dekve inti fkaws and what makes the charscters work while dking more than that.

Ennis punisher brought dimension tons very one dimensional character for instsnce. And he was still punisher


The constant "sh*t decompression" even gets old for someone like DD.. there is a reason people liked Waids run so much.


Not every hero is spiderman or DD.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: DigiCom on May 12, 2017, 03:53:10 pm
The constant "sh*t decompression" even gets old for someone like DD.. there is a reason people liked Waids run so much.

I know, I was one of them.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 04:04:54 pm
Not every hero is spiderman or DD.

That right there. That's the key points. Not every hero is the same. I don't want a Spiderman or DD impersonator. I don't want Tchalla to be some kids Spider-Man. I want Tchalla to be some kids Black Panther. That's what I want to when I read BP. Tchalla isn't down on his luck or Always having bad stuff happen to Him. He is The King of the most advanced nation on earth spiritually and technologically. He is the world's most underestimated man, with the greatest poker face. 2 steps ahead. He is the guy you want on your side. The Pinnacle of Black excellence and one of the most honorable people on the MU.

He doesn't need to be like them because he is different

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on May 12, 2017, 04:12:48 pm
Some characters are only improved by having character flaws. Green Arrow was way more interesting as a womanizing deadbeat dad.

Cyclops leaving his wife and kid was the only interesting he'd ever done before turning heel.

I care more about Kasper Cole than the rest of BP's supporting cast put together because I know dudes exactly like him.

In Dragonball Z/GT/Super professional  A-hole Vegita gets to have character development, while Goku hasn't changed since before Z.

B.P.'s worst flaw recently has been intimating in private, that if he had a choice, he'd rather do something else than run Wakanda during a bout of sectarian unrest.

This guy was leading the FF and traveling in Space during Reg's run, so yeah I can see him thinking a throne is pretty underwhelming compared to that.

I don't even consider that a flaw.

 

Making heroes flawed and more himan is a marvel trademark.

People want some humanity. Its one reason cosmic stuff dorsnt sell well... there is no connectiom for a lot of people

And there is a reason the mcu does so well. Esp gog which made a god damn racoon feel human

Just have to match the right flaws with the right chatscter amd execute it well. And, just as important, show the characters strength st the same timr. This where coates failed hard imo.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: marvell2100 on May 12, 2017, 05:28:27 pm
Having flaws is one thing.

Constantly getting punked series after series? Senseless.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 12, 2017, 06:27:29 pm
The poll really evokes the worst of the worst recent TChalla showings...although I'm surprised it skipped the whole "BP physically abused Ororo and knocked her out because Ororo held back" thing. In my fanfic? I have a sweet answer to that which draws on canon and actually manages to big up both TChalla AND Ororo. And The Royals.

All of the choices in the poll make me want to punch the writers who wrote that garbage.

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 06:35:59 pm
The poll really evokes the worst of the worst recent TChalla showings...although I'm surprised it skipped the whole "BP physically abused Ororo and knocked her out because Ororo held back" thing. In my fanfic? I have a sweet answer to that which draws on canon and actually manages to big up both TChalla AND Ororo. And The Royals.

All of the choices in the poll make me want to punch the writers who wrote that garbage.
??? When did that happen?? The abuse thing
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: marvell2100 on May 12, 2017, 06:45:48 pm
The whole Logan/Ororo "not him" was just straight up trolling by the X-offices. The got what they wanted and still kept trying to take shots. The goddess became a booty call and another notch on Logan's belt. But you can't blame the characters. Immature writer's and Storm fans who saw her as too good for T'Challa have no one to blame but themselves for Storm's fall. I don't care how many popularity polls they throw out there, she's just broken.

No wonder her fans are so quick to jump on the Coates bandwagon as they see this as another chance for her to get some kind of notice. Too bad they didn't jump on the train R Hudlin was conducting.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 07:12:25 pm
Having flaws is one thing.

Constantly getting punked series after series? Senseless.
The poll really evokes the worst of the worst recent TChalla showings...although I'm surprised it skipped the whole "BP physically abused Ororo and knocked her out because Ororo held back" thing. In my fanfic? I have a sweet answer to that which draws on canon and actually manages to big up both TChalla AND Ororo. And The Royals.

All of the choices in the poll make me want to punch the writers who wrote that garbage.

But don't you see?  those poll options represent the very highlights of T'Challa's "humanization".  Bc apparently Priest and Hudlin didn't do a good job of grounding him... so the poll events are what came after.  He's more relatable now, allegedly.

I hear all these vague generalized, crowd-pleasing talking points about how "humanizing" a character is great... and in a superficial conceptual way sure, sounds great, I can dig it.

But screw that ambiguous crap.  Let's get specific with our guy. 

T'Challa was apparently humanized these past 12 months... and clearly has been being "humanized" (some people prefer the term "deconstructed") non stop for the past handful of years.

Well, what exactly has been so great about his humanization?   What poll event made you say "Gee, T'Challa sure became more likeable/relatable/enjoyable after that happened" ??

"Gee, he was so insufferable after Priest/Hudlin, but after this happened, I found him much more enjoyable.." ??

None of this vague talking points about how "in general" humanization is great, I want to know what specifically ppl like about his "humanization" that wasn't there with Priest and Hudlin.  What's so likable about BP now?

Let's just get granular in this bitch :)




Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 12, 2017, 07:18:44 pm
When the narrative switched from

"I joined the team to spy on them white folks"

to

"I joined the team to learn from them white folks"

Was that a moment where you said "gee, he's more relatable now!" ???

"He's more likeable?"

"He's more... "safe"??"

???
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: marvell2100 on May 12, 2017, 07:20:51 pm
Having flaws is one thing.

Constantly getting punked series after series? Senseless.
The poll really evokes the worst of the worst recent TChalla showings...although I'm surprised it skipped the whole "BP physically abused Ororo and knocked her out because Ororo held back" thing. In my fanfic? I have a sweet answer to that which draws on canon and actually manages to big up both TChalla AND Ororo. And The Royals.

All of the choices in the poll make me want to punch the writers who wrote that garbage.

But don't you see?  those poll options represent the very highlights of T'Challa's "humanization".  Bc apparently Priest and Hudlin didn't do a good job of grounding him... so the poll events are what came after.  He's more relatable now, allegedly.

I hear all these vague generalized, crowd-pleasing talking points about how "humanizing" a character is great... and in a superficial conceptual way sure, sounds great, I can dig it.

But screw that ambiguous crap.  Let's get specific with our guy. 

T'Challa was apparently humanized these past 12 months... and clearly has been being "humanized" (some people prefer the term "deconstructed") non stop for the past handful of years.

Well, what exactly has been so great about his humanization?   What poll event made you say "Gee, T'Challa sure became more likeable/relatable/enjoyable after that happened" ??

"Gee, he was so insufferable after Priest/Hudlin, but after this happened, I found him much more enjoyable.." ??

None of this vague talking points about how "in general" humanization is great, I want to know what specifically ppl like about his "humanization" that wasn't there with Priest and Hudlin.  What's so likable about BP now?

Let's just get granular in this bitch :)

We all know. T'Challa was the take no isht, pimp slapper who beat Magneto, Sabretooth, Wolverine, broke Red Skulls jaw, ripped Mephisto's heart out and was ready to fight three wars at once.

Some folks just weren't comfortable with that. Hence we get the Mary Sue comments when other characters had similar feats with no such comments.

Badass Black Dude Syndrome.

Thus began the watering down of the Black Panther. Luke Cage suffered a similar fate once he got married.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 12, 2017, 07:26:18 pm
When the narrative switched from

"I joined the team to spy on them white folks"

to

"I joined the team to learn from them white folks"

Was that a moment where you said "gee, he's more relatable now!" ???

"He's more likeable?"

"He's more... "safe"??"

???

I'm not a fan of the whole spy thing, but it's more realistic. 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 12, 2017, 07:34:32 pm
When the narrative switched from

"I joined the team to spy on them white folks"

to

"I joined the team to learn from them white folks"

Was that a moment where you said "gee, he's more relatable now!" ???

"He's more likeable?"

"He's more... "safe"??"

???

That was one of the dumbest,more pointless retcons ever. It was massively idiotic and just show's how much Coates just doesn't get this mythos.. I do not accept his sh*tty retcon Because it is stupid, just like his "im more of a scientist" bullsh*t while showing him using someone else's tech.. f*cking dumb as hell
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Salustrade on May 12, 2017, 09:11:55 pm
I cram to understand why y'all are surprised at Coates?

His agenda was clearly laid out before the first issue of his Black Panther dropped.

It was as clear as day to me.

Some if y'all chose to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on May 13, 2017, 04:16:00 am
When the narrative switched from

"I joined the team to spy on them white folks"

to

"I joined the team to learn from them white folks"

Was that a moment where you said "gee, he's more relatable now!" ???

"He's more likeable?"

"He's more... "safe"??"

???

Oh lawd it sounds even worse like this.

This was pathetic. What is more pathetic waa the mental gymnastics justifying something that didnt neeed changed.

Priest saud "why the hell would he join the avengers! This makes no sense!" And found a way to make sense of it while making tchalla a hadass

And then st3orirs were built around whether or not the avengers could trust him, including crossing into the avengers titles  (ur my knight)

It became a flaw. Not all his teammates trusted him, he didnt trust everyone, he burdened himself with too much and was always on the cusp of turning into a namor at best, mags at worse.

But naw, nobody liked when priest did that!  It needed fixed! Just like priests doras! And priests cinfidense! And lots of priests stuff! Its all crap..

(Except its the best run and its being adapted to mcu but coates knows more right?)

It was justa pure spit in the face to long term fans.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 13, 2017, 07:43:07 am
Exactly. Coates is doing to Priest mythos what everyone else did to Hudlin's, taking good stuff away in favor of sh*t. I find it funny how Coates claims he is using the continuity yet completely ignores Hudlin's run just about,
and then cherry picks what he wants from Priest's run
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: JRCarter on May 13, 2017, 09:04:35 am
Too bad we can only pick three. I wanna click on all the choices.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 13, 2017, 01:53:20 pm
Funny thing is Priest and Hudlin showed the Human side of T'Challa. Priest had T'Challa struggling with the Aneurysm, and watching his future self die by the very thing that was slowly driving him to become a villain. also to him admitting to Storm that he was afraid and didn't have all the answers. Hudlin Showed the human side with his marriage to Storm. shoeing how much he loved her was the human side of things. humanizing doesn't mean you have to make the character become sh*tty, just things that people can relate to.

Plus I don;t want to relate to T'challa with stupid ass faults that coates created or other OOC showings. T'challa to me is Black Excellence at its peak, He represents the potential of what Africans and AAs could achieve. He is the what I would want to aspire to be



^^^I was going to say this before I dropped my previous response. Almost word for word.

And. Let me tell you something: extraordinary eminence breeds its own extraordinary challenges which themselves are humanizing.

The extraordinary things TChalla does and the incredible lengths he goes to in order to protect Wakanda? Humanizes him. His sense of love for and responsibility to Wakanda is nearly all consuming. That kind of commitment? IS. HUMANIZING. Struggling against, realizing his failure to stop, and then rising to the unspeakable challenge of accepting and overcoming the death and destruction of all that is by recreating the 616 with The Reality Gem during Hickman's run? IS HUMANIZING.

Even in my fanfic? TChalla saves Wakanda, and in so doing? He had to watch billions of people and hundreds of his friend PERISH. Some while cursing his name, and [ what they saw as his ] refusal to help them. That. IS. HUMANIZING.

Rape Camps isn't humanizing. That's garbage ass writing. BP Season 1 featured beautiful poetry...and garbage ass writing. Thus far TNC's run has been overwhelmingly marked by...garbage ass writing. The fact that we are soooo glad to see BP #13 [ an UNLUCKY NUMBER, YALL ] says how traumatized we've been by TNC's garbage ass writing and sweet ass poetry.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: DigiCom on May 13, 2017, 02:43:09 pm
Correction: Henry Dumas' sweet ass poetry. 8)
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 13, 2017, 03:18:27 pm
Correction: Henry Dumas' sweet ass poetry. 8)

Thanks for the correction!
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 13, 2017, 03:28:08 pm
Funny thing is Coates claims he has to fo Right by Tchalla, and spends 95% of the Story throwing shade,
then has his spin off join in o. The shade throwing and in the end his story is sh*t. Issue 13 is still mediocre. It's just Better then everything that came before it in S1.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 13, 2017, 03:47:12 pm

Coates says that the idea of a more fallible, human king of Wakanda flows directly from previous storylines. “I am really taking seriously what people did before me,” he said. “If Achebe did rule that country for a period of time. If KIllmonger actually did kill the King, if Morlun did cut a swath through that country and kill M’Baku and a bunch of other people, if Doom did plot with the Desturi and overthrow the government and damn near did kill T’Challa himself, if Shuri and him did have this break and Dora Milaje did turn their back on him, if Namor did perpetrate this holocaust... what would that country look like after all of that?”


If I started with this premise (and I could see it) I would not arrive within 10 miles of Coates's story.  His approach is not the natural conclusion of that premise.  Mine would be about king, queen  and nation rising strong.  (How?  No idea, but it would be 180 degrees from what we got.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 13, 2017, 06:22:32 pm


We all know. T'Challa was the take no isht, pimp slapper who beat Magneto, Sabretooth, Wolverine, broke Red Skulls jaw, ripped Mephisto's heart out and was ready to fight three wars at once.

Some folks just weren't comfortable with that. Hence we get the Mary Sue comments when other characters had similar feats with no such comments.

Badass Black Dude Syndrome.

Thus began the watering down of the Black Panther. Luke Cage suffered a similar fate once he got married.

I cram to understand why y'all are surprised at Coates?

His agenda was clearly laid out before the first issue of his Black Panther dropped.

It was as clear as day to me.

Some if y'all chose to believe otherwise.

Are you two... insinuating ...that the whole "humanizing T'Challa" is a grand hoax, a lie perpetuated by the vocal minority who are only invested in Storm, Ayo, Aneka, Shuri, Misty, Doom, Reed and agendas outside the actual elevation of T'Challa?  Hence why sales plummet but excuses still fester?

(https://media.tenor.co/images/8c4e72dde14da4388f49805be18e03d6/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 13, 2017, 06:31:11 pm
Too bad we can only pick three. I wanna click on all the choices.

I feel like I let Nas down by not applying the proper customization to the poll  :(

Ezyo, is there anything I or a mod can do about this? 

It is a disservice to everyone on this board that they are limited to one option when the whole purpose of this experiment was to have an accumulative consolidated grading scale of T'Challa's most amazing humanizing portrayals in his post Priest-Hudlin existence.

I'm frankly embarrassed at myself for this misstep.   
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 13, 2017, 07:11:08 pm

Coates says that the idea of a more fallible, human king of Wakanda flows directly from previous storylines. “I am really taking seriously what people did before me,” he said. “If Achebe did rule that country for a period of time. If KIllmonger actually did kill the King, if Morlun did cut a swath through that country and kill M’Baku and a bunch of other people, if Doom did plot with the Desturi and overthrow the government and damn near did kill T’Challa himself, if Shuri and him did have this break and Dora Milaje did turn their back on him, if Namor did perpetrate this holocaust... what would that country look like after all of that?”


If I started with this premise (and I could see it) I would not arrive within 10 miles of Coates's story.  His approach is not the natural conclusion of that premise.  Mine would be about king, queen  and nation rising strong.  (How?  No idea, but it would be 180 degrees from what we got.
Bingo.

Here's a pure hypothetical: 

What if a war-bound Hulk took over America briefly, and Norman Osborne became director of shield, and then the Skrulls nearly took over the world and devastated NYC, then Asgard nearly destroyed the midwest and Sentry turned into the biblical manifestation of death and plague in America's backyard, only for Thanos to then invade earth to kill his inhuman son, but only after the phoenix force possessed a handful of militant mutants with the intention of quasi world domination.. and the 10 other semiannual extinction-level events that takes place in America... what would America look like after that?

Well, it looked like another Tuesday after T'Challa restored their universe from another extinction level event. 

The way i see it,  you can't say "What if Morlun did this and that..." without also acknowledging Morlun was defeated and the day was saved.  You can't talk about all the times _____ was knocked down without acknowledging all the times that same _______ stood back up stronger than ever.  Resilient as ever.  Defiant as ever.

Every Bendis event starts with a school bus full of children or a packed NFL stadium gettin blown the fuk up... and it doesn't get lamented on 10 years after the fact as a means to "humanize" Captain America.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 13, 2017, 09:23:40 pm

Coates says that the idea of a more fallible, human king of Wakanda flows directly from previous storylines. “I am really taking seriously what people did before me,” he said. “If Achebe did rule that country for a period of time. If KIllmonger actually did kill the King, if Morlun did cut a swath through that country and kill M’Baku and a bunch of other people, if Doom did plot with the Desturi and overthrow the government and damn near did kill T’Challa himself, if Shuri and him did have this break and Dora Milaje did turn their back on him, if Namor did perpetrate this holocaust... what would that country look like after all of that?”






If I started with this premise (and I could see it) I would not arrive within 10 miles of Coates's story.  His approach is not the natural conclusion of that premise.  Mine would be about king, queen  and nation rising strong.  (How?  No idea, but it would be 180 degrees from what we got.


(https://images.rapgenius.com/38c5d1ffbe70781c2d50be799641c644.400x227x27.gif)
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Kasper Cole on May 13, 2017, 09:35:09 pm
Typically anyone that is now claiming they like T'Challa more because he's more "humanized" are people that never read his stories in the first place.

They might know of a scanned page here and there but they've never read the stories.

There's no way in hell you can read Priest, Hudlin, or Liss and come away thinking T'Challa was some flawless character.

It's funny how T'Challa shares many of the same qualities as Batman, but you NEVER hear anyone claim batman needs to be "humanized" or that he lacks character flaws.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on May 13, 2017, 09:53:02 pm
Typically anyone that is now claiming they like T'Challa more because he's more "humanized" are people that never read his stories in the first place.

They might know of a scanned page here and there but they've never read the stories.

There's no way in hell you can read Priest, Hudlin, or Liss and come away thinking T'Challa was some flawless character.

It's funny how T'Challa shares many of the same qualities as Batman, but you NEVER hear anyone claim batman needs to be "humanized" or that he lacks character flaws.
Exactly. This whole "humanized" is code for emasculated. Because Real BP fans see through the bullsh*t and know what crap is trying to be pulled
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 13, 2017, 10:19:53 pm
Interesting.

Why does T'Challa have to be humanized but not Batman?  ???

Sure ppl complain about the prep time thing but that's more so for not wanting other flagship characters to get embarrassed by Batman (i.e. Superman, Hal Jordan).  There's no actual desire for Batman himself to be 'humanized' so to be more "relatable".

There's no desire to make Batman into someone's Spider-Man.

But it seems Black Panther doesn't get to play by those same rules.

Why is that?
 
Is it because he's black?   ???
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on May 13, 2017, 10:23:51 pm

Typically anyone that is now claiming they like T'Challa more because he's more "humanized" are people that never read his stories in the first place.

Exactly. This whole "humanized" is code for emasculated. Because Real BP fans see through the bullsh*t and know what crap is trying to be pulled

(https://media.tenor.co/images/8c4e72dde14da4388f49805be18e03d6/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 13, 2017, 11:46:05 pm

Typically anyone that is now claiming they like T'Challa more because he's more "humanized" are people that never read his stories in the first place.

Exactly. This whole "humanized" is code for emasculated. Because Real BP fans see through the bullsh*t and know what crap is trying to be pulled

(https://media.tenor.co/images/8c4e72dde14da4388f49805be18e03d6/tenor.gif)

EXACTLY
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: marvell2100 on May 14, 2017, 12:22:03 pm
We BP all know that humanizing BP isn't the issue. Priest and R Hudlin humanized him.

They both gave him empathy, sympathy, loss, failure happiness, superiority and arrogance. If that isn't a run on the full gamut of human emotion then I don't know what is.

All one has to do is read what each of them has contributed to BP as writers. Sadly as we all know, there at those who don't read the books they so love to criticize.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 28, 2017, 09:18:31 pm
I don't want to jinx it but I really can't envision a 3rd season of Coates on this book.  I think humanized T'Challa is a failure and sales remind us of that every month.

I think this reality isn't lost on Coates or Marvel and they need to start working on his exit strategy to Steve Roger's world while also gearing up the next writer to take the reigns.

Speaking of Steve Rogers, I read Secret Empire #5 and I think asshole T'Challa is the way to go.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on June 28, 2017, 09:29:19 pm
I don't want to jinx it but I really can't envision a 3rd season of Coates on this book.  I think humanized T'Challa is a failure and sales remind us of that every month.

I think this reality isn't lost on Coates or Marvel and they need to start working on his exit strategy to Steve Roger's world while also gearing up the next writer to take the reigns.

Speaking of Steve Rogers, I read Secret Empire #5 and I think asshole T'Challa is the way to go.
To an extent in regards to asshole Tchalla. He should be a balance between Priest assholish and Hudlins charismatic.. basically he should be McDuffies Panther. A nice blend of Priest and Hudlin through and through, from Tech and preplanning to ass kicking and  intellect McDuffies version is the ideal in terms of using the best of both worlds,
because Tchalla was Kinda an asshole but not totally either cause he still had that charismatic charm about him.

God I wish we could of gotten a McDuffie Solo.

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2017, 04:37:57 am

Speaking of Steve Rogers, I read Secret Empire #5 and I think asshole T'Challa is the way to go.

He's a heroic king in my book. Some prefer the king first but whatever. His "base" is a super hero king. Different from Namor and Black Bolt because he is heroic, through and through. Which puts him in situations where he has to decide who is he more... super hero of the world(s) or king of Wakanda.


Top ten genius, king from a line of kings of an ancient country that has always been "better" than everyone else, one o fthe best warriors in the world, rich AF...

why wouldn't he have confidence and a bit of arrogance in his voice? That is exactly how he is written everywhere outside his own damn book. MCU, cartoons (both EMH and now AA), guest appearances, even Ultimates he is like that

but Coates writes him and he suddenly "humanized."

Nobody liked MCU T'challa bc he walked around crying about the fact his dad got blown up right in front of him. They liked him because his response was, "alight, put on the ring, put ont he suit, I will kill him myself"

T'challa has been a bit of a asshole since Priest... because Priest knows how to write comic books and he knew noble negro warrrior ain't what the masses want. So he course corrected.

Hudlin got that... took on a lil bit of the asshole and added in swagger. Mayberry kinda got it until he f*cked it all up at the end. Liss got the memo. Hickman got the memo until he needed his story moments.

Coates sees all this and goes, "naw, he needs to be human and realistic." Probably because that is who he sees black folks as a whole but that be for another conversation....
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 06:47:17 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2017, 07:33:19 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 07:53:09 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2017, 08:30:02 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Exactly, I mean honestly on hate the term some kids Spiderman even Because he is nothing like him, just like he isn't Marvel's Batman. I know it's used just so people can have a general idea of the character expectations, but if I were writing Black Panther, I would want to make him some kids Black Panther because that's who he is. A Good king who loves his people and loves being King, a warrior, a superhero.
That's who he is.a Noble guy yet someone you don't want to mess with Because he will put you down.. Hard without hesitation, without Mercy, yet he is there for his people and loves all of them. That's Who he is. That's what he represents, and that's what I expect when I read Black panther

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: CvilleWakandan on June 29, 2017, 08:35:20 am

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

QFT.
Additionally most of his public issues stem from being a vigilante vilified by one individual and not having any money(not currently of course). Neither of which should be a problem for BP.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 09:13:03 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Exactly, I mean honestly on hate the term some kids Spiderman even Because he is nothing like him, just like he isn't Marvel's Batman. I know it's used just so people can have a general idea of the character expectations, but if I were writing Black Panther, I would want to make him some kids Black Panther because that's who he is. A Good king who loves his people and loves being King, a warrior, a superhero.
That's who he is.a Noble guy yet someone you don't want to mess with Because he will put you down.. Hard without hesitation, without Mercy, yet he is there for his people and loves all of them. That's Who he is. That's what he represents, and that's what I expect when I read Black panther


Yup.  With Batman I'll say this, and using Captain America/Superman as an example:

Everybody loves Captain America.  Everybody loves Superman.  Both different in the details but both still the esteemed boy scouts to their peers.
Everybody is on edge when Black Panther is around. Everybody is on edge when Batman is around.  Both different in the details but both have that mystery unpredictability and intimidation to them, from their peers.

It's the respect factor that they should be getting from their peers (and writers) that makes them equivalent pairings, despite all 4 being individually unique.  Captain America gets that same respect Superman gets... whether that be in this Injustice-mirroring story Spencer is doing or in Cap's standard portrayals.  But BP only gets that respect sometimes compared to Batman and the others.  Like no way would Batman have been regulated to Carol Danvers best white friend in CW2. 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 09:21:17 am

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

QFT.
Additionally most of his public issues stem from being a vigilante vilified by one individual and not having any money(not currently of course). Neither of which should be a problem for BP.

Yup and since we always saw him do the heroic thing saving the day, the ensuing over-the-top vilification of him just made him even more likeable to readers because it came across like he was being picked on and bullied for doing the right thing.

But Coates doesn't seem to understand the gamesmanship of what Marvel creative was doing with Spider-man's "down on his luck" ruse. 
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2017, 09:52:13 am
Only way tchalla becomes some kids spiderman is because of cartoons, toys, and little kids apparel, movie, and video games

Luckily his comic popularity dont mean sh*t

Disney kbows this, that's why hes leading new cartoon

Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Ezyo on June 29, 2017, 09:57:28 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Exactly, I mean honestly on hate the term some kids Spiderman even Because he is nothing like him, just like he isn't Marvel's Batman. I know it's used just so people can have a general idea of the character expectations, but if I were writing Black Panther, I would want to make him some kids Black Panther because that's who he is. A Good king who loves his people and loves being King, a warrior, a superhero.
That's who he is.a Noble guy yet someone you don't want to mess with Because he will put you down.. Hard without hesitation, without Mercy, yet he is there for his people and loves all of them. That's Who he is. That's what he represents, and that's what I expect when I read Black panther


Yup.  With Batman I'll say this, and using Captain America/Superman as an example:

Everybody loves Captain America.  Everybody loves Superman.  Both different in the details but both still the esteemed boy scouts to their peers.
Everybody is on edge when Black Panther is around. Everybody is on edge when Batman is around.  Both different in the details but both have that mystery unpredictability and intimidation to them, from their peers.

It's the respect factor that they should be getting from their peers (and writers) that makes them equivalent pairings, despite all 4 being individually unique.  Captain America gets that same respect Superman gets... whether that be in this Injustice-mirroring story Spencer is doing or in Cap's standard portrayals.  But BP only gets that respect sometimes compared to Batman and the others.  Like no way would Batman have been regulated to Carol Danvers best white friend in CW2.

I agree, now granted in CW II event and the Ultimates tie in, T'Challa DID Eventually pull out some baller shiit, (When Carol got Chair and was yelling at him to do something and he simply replied, he IS doing something, He is evaluating the current situation and his next move and when he decided she WILL KNOW) and in the Event Daring her to attack him and risk War with Wakanda, But then that was dashed by stupid Bendis Speak gushing over Cap.

But i get what you mean, he should like Like Mcduffies Panther. The perfect Blend and folks should feel like they did in John's Red zone, Where they don't know exactly what he is up to. Thats how he should be treated. Soemone who you can trust, but only so much because he is looking at the end game, like a grandmaster chess player
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2017, 10:33:18 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Exactly, I mean honestly on hate the term some kids Spiderman even Because he is nothing like him, just like he isn't Marvel's Batman. I know it's used just so people can have a general idea of the character expectations, but if I were writing Black Panther, I would want to make him some kids Black Panther because that's who he is. A Good king who loves his people and loves being King, a warrior, a superhero.
That's who he is.a Noble guy yet someone you don't want to mess with Because he will put you down.. Hard without hesitation, without Mercy, yet he is there for his people and loves all of them. That's Who he is. That's what he represents, and that's what I expect when I read Black panther


Yup.  With Batman I'll say this, and using Captain America/Superman as an example:

Everybody loves Captain America.  Everybody loves Superman.  Both different in the details but both still the esteemed boy scouts to their peers.
Everybody is on edge when Black Panther is around. Everybody is on edge when Batman is around.  Both different in the details but both have that mystery unpredictability and intimidation to them, from their peers.

It's the respect factor that they should be getting from their peers (and writers) that makes them equivalent pairings, despite all 4 being individually unique.  Captain America gets that same respect Superman gets... whether that be in this Injustice-mirroring story Spencer is doing or in Cap's standard portrayals.  But BP only gets that respect sometimes compared to Batman and the others.  Like no way would Batman have been regulated to Carol Danvers best white friend in CW2.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/3a6ca7369ca433db8210343961c96318/tenor.gif)


It is true though. The batman comparisons are annoying but yeah.... That is perfect lol.

"The Most Dangerous Man Alive"

That is how it was in EMH too. You never 100% knew what he was thinking and he wasn't 100% a team player... but at the same time he would sacrifice himself for the greater good if necessary.

He should be a cross between batman and logan in an "avengers" setting. Meaning he will straight up off a dude if its necessary whether someone like Jan would judge him



The difference is, DC is 100% committed to batman and protecting batman and everything.

T'challa.... can't even get any respect in his own damn solo.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: MindofShadow on June 29, 2017, 10:57:00 am


Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Hell, look how well Miles has survived the Parker Hate Brigade.

Cool ass costume, even cooler powers, kicks ass, talks a lot of sh*t...

they just did it for black people instead lol.

And look how miles is creeping into the animation world, and now creeping into the movie world with the sony animated movie... and Feigie already said "miles is out there somewhere" in the MCU... and people are asking so much Holland himself commented on Miles


Ain't no one love Spidey as a kid because he missed some freaking dates.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 01:41:01 pm
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Exactly, I mean honestly on hate the term some kids Spiderman even Because he is nothing like him, just like he isn't Marvel's Batman. I know it's used just so people can have a general idea of the character expectations, but if I were writing Black Panther, I would want to make him some kids Black Panther because that's who he is. A Good king who loves his people and loves being King, a warrior, a superhero.
That's who he is.a Noble guy yet someone you don't want to mess with Because he will put you down.. Hard without hesitation, without Mercy, yet he is there for his people and loves all of them. That's Who he is. That's what he represents, and that's what I expect when I read Black panther


Yup.  With Batman I'll say this, and using Captain America/Superman as an example:

Everybody loves Captain America.  Everybody loves Superman.  Both different in the details but both still the esteemed boy scouts to their peers.
Everybody is on edge when Black Panther is around. Everybody is on edge when Batman is around.  Both different in the details but both have that mystery unpredictability and intimidation to them, from their peers.

It's the respect factor that they should be getting from their peers (and writers) that makes them equivalent pairings, despite all 4 being individually unique.  Captain America gets that same respect Superman gets... whether that be in this Injustice-mirroring story Spencer is doing or in Cap's standard portrayals.  But BP only gets that respect sometimes compared to Batman and the others.  Like no way would Batman have been regulated to Carol Danvers best white friend in CW2.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/3a6ca7369ca433db8210343961c96318/tenor.gif)


It is true though. The batman comparisons are annoying but yeah.... That is perfect lol.

"The Most Dangerous Man Alive"

That is how it was in EMH too. You never 100% knew what he was thinking and he wasn't 100% a team player... but at the same time he would sacrifice himself for the greater good if necessary.

He should be a cross between batman and logan in an "avengers" setting. ]Meaning he will straight up off a dude if its necessary whether someone like Jan would judge him



The difference is, DC is 100% committed to batman and protecting batman and everything.

T'challa.... can't even get any respect in his own damn solo.

Bingo.

BP is often Rodney Dangerfield out here

If there's any event that happens, Batman gon be there all up in the video.  Glorified cameo at the very least.

For BP, glorified cameo at the very most!

BP essentially is Wolverine + Batman.  We saw this in CA:CW every time they emphasized his claws coming out.  We saw it in Avengers Assemble with the baraka claws and his overall disposition.  We'll likely see it in his solo and Infinity Wars.  And we've seen it in Deadpool's writer, Cho-Hulk's writer, Kamala's writer and Captain America's writer... hell, even Ultimates whenever Ewing's head isn't stuck up Galactus' ass. 

We're just waiting for Coates to leave, so that a writer that actually wants to write that kind of BP (and wants to actually collaborate with other writers) can come in and make the cypher complete.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Mortal Man on June 29, 2017, 01:55:36 pm


Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Hell, look how well Miles has survived the Parker Hate Brigade.

Cool ass costume, even cooler powers, kicks ass, talks a lot of sh*t...

they just did it for black people instead lol.

And look how miles is creeping into the animation world, and now creeping into the movie world with the sony animated movie... and Feigie already said "miles is out there somewhere" in the MCU... and people are asking so much Holland himself commented on Miles


Ain't no one love Spidey as a kid because he missed some freaking dates.

I always laugh when old comic fans talk about Spider-man is so popular because he's the "everyday man" and i have to remind them that the biggest contributor to Spidey's popularity are little kids (like a billion annually in toys and merch) and none of those lil brats gives a damn about some emo photographer married with a wife, kid and struggling to pay rent.  They gon buy spider-man regardless just as long as he's still jumping around, talkin sh*t and lookin cool in that costume.

Honestly, it was also an older spidey fan that once told me that all the crying that mj fans were doing post marriage about how they got cheated and MJ was Pete's #1... he laughed and said Gwen fans went through the same bitch fest back in the 70s.  But as long as Spider-man was still "spider-man", the cycle would continue as it always had.   

Which is why you can create the same formula with Miles and the end result is damn near the same.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: marvell2100 on July 02, 2017, 04:59:12 am
You both made valid points.

I look at See Wakanda and Die T'Challa and Nick Spencer T'Challa and I immediately notice that they give him the same respect and mystique that DC writers give someone like Batman. 

Which is why i found the whole making T'Challa someone's Spider-man to be incredulous and disingenuous when, if anything, the most blatant comparison he often gets is that of Batman.

Captain America is Marvel's equivalent to Superman, in his own way

Black Panther is Marvel's equivalent to Batman, in his own way


But obviously Batman doesn't need to be humanized and in fact it would be counterproductive to the agenda to even bring him up, so I understand why Coates leaped frogged him, despite how obvious and more suitable of comparison that would be, compared to Spider-man

Funny thing is, he said he wanted to make him some kids spiderman, but he isn't even using the current spiderman (obviously wouldn't fit his bullshiit agenda) because the current spiderman is sucessful, dates super models and heiresses who also dress up as anti heroes, owns his own company, and cracks jokes and and charismatic.. Naw Coates took the old, down on his luck, sh*t is always goign wrong for him old style Spidey.. The one no one relates to at all. So he was straight up on bullshiit from the start, and its obvious that that is how he probably views black people in general, he can't be excellent like T'challa's in continuity portrayals, and literally every other aspect of the MU acknowledges (thank god they didn't follow suit with Coates crap) ad he must be reliant on everyone else to hold his hand 

It is funny that Spider-man being "down on his luck" often boiled down to him kicking everyone's ass, outsmarting the villain, saving the day but in the process being late to his dinner date with [insert hot supermodel / hot cheerleader chick] and feeling that [insert hot supermodel heiress chick] is only sleeping with him bc he can lift tanks and jump over houses but doesn't love him for him ::)

What sh*t luck this guy has  ::)

Kids like Spider-man bc he has a cool costume, cool powers, kicks ass and talks a lot of sh*t... and is always made to look heroic/do and say heroic things.
Same with Batman but replace powers with gadgets and ninja stuff
BP has all the tools for that but Coates was faking the funk b/c nothing about this BP is making him into anyone's Spider-man.. or anyone's Black Panther

Maybe he wanted T'Challa to be a part-time photographer for The Wakandan Times and fight crime in treetop rape camps. Changemire would be J Jonah Jameson.
Title: Re: "Humanizing T'Challa" Appreciation/Unappreciation Thread
Post by: Salustrade on July 02, 2017, 07:38:08 am


We all know. T'Challa was the take no isht, pimp slapper who beat Magneto, Sabretooth, Wolverine, broke Red Skulls jaw, ripped Mephisto's heart out and was ready to fight three wars at once.

Some folks just weren't comfortable with that. Hence we get the Mary Sue comments when other characters had similar feats with no such comments.

Badass Black Dude Syndrome.

Thus began the watering down of the Black Panther. Luke Cage suffered a similar fate once he got married.

I cram to understand why y'all are surprised at Coates?

His agenda was clearly laid out before the first issue of his Black Panther dropped.

It was as clear as day to me.

Some if y'all chose to believe otherwise.

Are you two... insinuating ...that the whole "humanizing T'Challa" is a grand hoax, a lie perpetuated by the vocal minority who are only invested in Storm, Ayo, Aneka, Shuri, Misty, Doom, Reed and agendas outside the actual elevation of T'Challa?  Hence why sales plummet but excuses still fester?

(https://media.tenor.co/images/8c4e72dde14da4388f49805be18e03d6/tenor.gif)

I never mentioned anything about Shuri but other than that, I agree 99.9% with your post.  8)