Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 11:33:33 am

Title: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 11:33:33 am
Some of the plot became clearer

- Klaw is simply mimicking the monster people with his constructs. He isn't the cause.

- Thunderball is being used as a physicist. T'challa says he can do it himelf but any good king "delegates" and he has other more pressing matters

- Shuri and T'challa head into the Djalia. Neither of them trust Thunderball but from the dialogue, T'challa sounds like he is expecting him to turn on them but it will be beneficial for Wakanda when he does

- T'challa meets Mother, mother calls him a scientist and a hero. T'chalal refuses to be called a king here as he is the one seeking knowledge (hes being respectful)

- The monsters are the originators. Before Wakanda was wakanda, the people lived next to this originators. However, humans are basically greedy cunts and it resulted in war

- humans were losing until the Orishas came and protected them, with the strongest of them being Bast. The routed the Orignators and banished them and then protected the gate so they couldn't come back

- but the orisha are gone for whatever reason (they mention they could simply be bored as they are Gods) so the gates are open.

- T'challa states he knows wakanda hx and this wan't in there, mother mentions something something along the lines of the victor makes the history

- monther basically says it is up to T'challa to close and protect the gate



it was a kinda of interesting "world building" issue. This should have been like issue #3 of this arc though. Should have been intro, talk to panthers, then talk to djalia. what can you do
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: DigiCom on November 22, 2017, 12:08:02 pm
So, in short:

T'Challa needs an ex-con physicist (because, apparently, there are NO OTHER scientists in Wakanda)
The only way he can get answers regarding the originators is to show "respect" to Mother, who pretty much treats him like a child. 
And Wakandans are imperialist invaders who kicked out the poor innocent monsters, because of COURSE they are .

I was right in the other thread:

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--VRBhwEl4--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/atssh2nqxijbpgxdlj4j.gif)

ETA: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/ (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/)
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 02:04:41 pm
Some of the plot became clearer

- Klaw is simply mimicking the monster people with his constructs. He isn't the cause.

- Thunderball is being used as a physicist. T'challa says he can do it himelf but any good king "delegates" and he has other more pressing matters

- Shuri and T'challa head into the Djalia. Neither of them trust Thunderball but from the dialogue, T'challa sounds like he is expecting him to turn on them but it will be beneficial for Wakanda when he does

- T'challa meets Mother, mother calls him a scientist and a hero. T'chalal refuses to be called a king here as he is the one seeking knowledge (hes being respectful)

- The monsters are the originators. Before Wakanda was wakanda, the people lived next to this originators. However, humans are basically greedy cunts and it resulted in war

- humans were losing until the Orishas came and protected them, with the strongest of them being Bast. The routed the Orignators and banished them and then protected the gate so they couldn't come back

- but the orisha are gone for whatever reason (they mention they could simply be bored as they are Gods) so the gates are open.

- T'challa states he knows wakanda hx and this wan't in there, mother mentions something something along the lines of the victor makes the history

- monther basically says it is up to T'challa to close and protect the gate



it was a kinda of interesting "world building" issue. This should have been like issue #3 of this arc though. Should have been intro, talk to panthers, then talk to djalia. what can you do

Is this originators story pre Bashenga?

Coates is obsessed with the King thing. This is how you know Marvel stepped in. lol

Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on November 22, 2017, 02:10:16 pm
Some of the plot became clearer

- Klaw is simply mimicking the monster people with his constructs. He isn't the cause.

- Thunderball is being used as a physicist. T'challa says he can do it himelf but any good king "delegates" and he has other more pressing matters

- Shuri and T'challa head into the Djalia. Neither of them trust Thunderball but from the dialogue, T'challa sounds like he is expecting him to turn on them but it will be beneficial for Wakanda when he does

- T'challa meets Mother, mother calls him a scientist and a hero. T'chalal refuses to be called a king here as he is the one seeking knowledge (hes being respectful)

- The monsters are the originators. Before Wakanda was wakanda, the people lived next to this originators. However, humans are basically greedy cunts and it resulted in war

- humans were losing until the Orishas came and protected them, with the strongest of them being Bast. The routed the Orignators and banished them and then protected the gate so they couldn't come back

- but the orisha are gone for whatever reason (they mention they could simply be bored as they are Gods) so the gates are open.

- T'challa states he knows wakanda hx and this wan't in there, mother mentions something something along the lines of the victor makes the history

- monther basically says it is up to T'challa to close and protect the gate



it was a kinda of interesting "world building" issue. This should have been like issue #3 of this arc though. Should have been intro, talk to panthers, then talk to djalia. what can you do

Is this originators story pre Bashenga?

Coates is obsessed with the King thing. This is how you know Marvel stepped in. lol
That was the first thought that came to my mind reading MoS's summary lol

Like, jesus bast this ta-nehisi guy is a sore loser
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 02:14:00 pm
Coates is Dead to me officially. He just made WK "safe".

He just turned Wakandans into Columbusinians(I made this word up)



https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/ (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/)
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 03:32:02 pm
Rape camps
Suicide bombers
DM must serve the king in all ways
Forbidden lesbian love
Monarchy is horrible... when main character is king
Stuck on his ex wife
Invites super villains inti wakanda
First wakandans were white settlers essentially


Ur black panther writer everyone!
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 03:48:42 pm
Some of the plot became clearer

- Klaw is simply mimicking the monster people with his constructs. He isn't the cause.

- Thunderball is being used as a physicist. T'challa says he can do it himelf but any good king "delegates" and he has other more pressing matters

- Shuri and T'challa head into the Djalia. Neither of them trust Thunderball but from the dialogue, T'challa sounds like he is expecting him to turn on them but it will be beneficial for Wakanda when he does

- T'challa meets Mother, mother calls him a scientist and a hero. T'chalal refuses to be called a king here as he is the one seeking knowledge (hes being respectful)

- The monsters are the originators. Before Wakanda was wakanda, the people lived next to this originators. However, humans are basically greedy cunts and it resulted in war

- humans were losing until the Orishas came and protected them, with the strongest of them being Bast. The routed the Orignators and banished them and then protected the gate so they couldn't come back

- but the orisha are gone for whatever reason (they mention they could simply be bored as they are Gods) so the gates are open.

- T'challa states he knows wakanda hx and this wan't in there, mother mentions something something along the lines of the victor makes the history

- monther basically says it is up to T'challa to close and protect the gate



it was a kinda of interesting "world building" issue. This should have been like issue #3 of this arc though. Should have been intro, talk to panthers, then talk to djalia. what can you do

Is this originators story pre Bashenga?

Coates is obsessed with the King thing. This is how you know Marvel stepped in. lol
That was the first thought that came to my mind reading MoS's summary lol

Like, jesus bast this ta-nehisi guy is a sore loser

Chang has made like a 1 page appearance

Hopefully editorial steps in and ends the storm sh*t next
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
Coates is Dead to me officially. He just made WK "safe".

He just turned Wakandans into Columbusinians(I made this word up)



https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/ (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/22/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-167/)


Maybe this will end with reparations for the originators!

40 acres and a mule!
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 03:58:54 pm
Lol.

Can we start a hashtag "Coates must go" and attach the article to it? lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 04:02:44 pm
You coukd have easiky changed this story to

- wakandans and originators living peacefully

- vibranium hit in the human side

- originators became jealous of the wakandans

- originators attacked

- humans put up strong fight but were overmatched by tge combined might of the 3? Originator tribes

- there warrior spirit caught tghe attention of Bast
and she saw them worthy of her attention

- she sided with them, and powered up the most fearsome and noble champion to aide her

- it was bashenga

- bast and her friends banish the originators,  leaves bashenga to protect the wakandans from any outside threat

Viola
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 05:08:56 pm
I like the original. Just fleshed out mire.

Separate tribes live in the area. Meteor hits. Some people turn into monsters and the tribes ban together led by Bashenga. Panther God before she gets named Bast in Egypt enfuses him with powers. Victory. The tribes for Wakanda.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 22, 2017, 06:18:51 pm
You coukd have easiky changed this story to

- wakandans and originators living peacefully

- vibranium hit in the human side

- originators became jealous of the wakandans

- originators attacked

- humans put up strong fight but were overmatched by tge combined might of the 3? Originator tribes

- there warrior spirit caught tghe attention of Bast
and she saw them worthy of her attention

- she sided with them, and powered up the most fearsome and noble champion to aide her

- it was bashenga

- bast and her friends banish the originators,  leaves bashenga to protect the wakandans from any outside threat

Viola

But that requires the writer to actually care about the mythos and want to  expand the mythos  of why Wakanda and BP are awesome. But instead he wants to practically hot hit all the offensive stereotypes instead and make Wakanda no better then the Rest of the world, of not Worse because of how they view the rest of the world. This is why o can't wait for him to leave and for a new writer to fix or ignore this garbage
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 06:26:43 pm
Something funny. If you read Kirby #7. Coates is Mister Little. lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 22, 2017, 07:13:39 pm
Yeah.. that Issue was completely  BS. The history of Wakanda. Coates Really hates what the BP mythos stand's for and has really gone to great lengths to make Wakanda 'safe' . Completely crap Issue as always. Yes they didn't shade throw on Tchalla, bit the definitely tossed shade on Wakanda itself.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 22, 2017, 07:27:39 pm
It took ~five pages to ruin a promising comic. He just got too full of himself.
And whoever drew Franklin in the lab should be ashamed of himself. Man looks like he lost 200lbs. lol.

And he better have some greater purpose. I could see if you needed a gamma expert, but there are plenty of scientist in WK.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 22, 2017, 07:37:49 pm
Or tony stark, cho, riri, parker, moon girl

You know... any "not a super villain" genious lol.

This woulda been perfect time to bring in those hickman kids if you kept it in house
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 22, 2017, 08:19:34 pm
Or tony stark, cho, riri, parker, moon girl

You know... any "not a super villain" genious lol.

This woulda been perfect time to bring in those hickman kids if you kept it in house

Technically speaking, what Thunderball learned to get his doctorate, Wakandans are probably taught in HS.  I mean Reed, Tony, Hank, are light years ahead of the American College scene; so they could bring new things to Wakanda (maybe) but Thunderball had never been seen as one of them. 

Another option--Giant Man's brother.  BP already promised to help him.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on November 22, 2017, 09:12:14 pm
Or tony stark, cho, riri, parker, moon girl

You know... any "not a super villain" genious lol.

This woulda been perfect time to bring in those hickman kids if you kept it in house

Technically speaking, what Thunderball learned to get his doctorate, Wakandans are probably taught in HS.  I mean Reed, Tony, Hank, are light years ahead of the American College scene; so they could bring new things to Wakanda (maybe) but Thunderball had never been seen as one of them. 

Another option--Giant Man's brother.  BP already promised to help him.

If you mean Tom Foster then he's his nephew not  brother..

TNC more than likely trying to convey that Thunderball is supposed to be as intelligent as Bruce Banner/ villain version of Banner ( not the Hull) but once again failing hard & fast at it .
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ture on November 22, 2017, 10:12:09 pm
BLACK PANTHER #167

(https://i1.wp.com/www.comiccrusaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/0001-21.jpg?resize=825%2C400&ssl=1)

SLAVE...  SLAVE... SLAVE...SLAVE...
(https://i2.wp.com/www.comiccrusaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/0002-21.jpg?resize=300%2C300&ssl=1)

"The Originators are the original population of Wakanda. And the humans are pilgrims, founding fathers, travellers to the land who settled there. This paints Wakanda as a nation of invasion, of appropriation, of exploitation, and of murder, as much as any other…"
(https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Image-103-600x964.png)

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?

#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on November 22, 2017, 10:12:28 pm
Yea i just read a bleeding cool article about what Ta-Nehisi did in this issue.

What a little f*ckboy move.

Instead of making Black Panther into "someone's Spider-Man", he wants to turn Black Panther and Wakanda into black america's version of "white guilt".

"Oh you want to like Wakanda?  Well you gotta acknowlege their rape culture and Christopher Columbus ass past!"

Such a f*cky boy whose a try hard that wants to be seen as the Christoper Priest of the mytho when he's done, so he does all this dumb sh*t as a result.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ture on November 22, 2017, 10:17:13 pm
Coates handling of the Black Panther is insult to both fans and "Black" people.

#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
#COATES HATES BLACK
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 22, 2017, 10:48:05 pm
Or tony stark, cho, riri, parker, moon girl

You know... any "not a super villain" genious lol.

This woulda been perfect time to bring in those hickman kids if you kept it in house

He is just throwing random Black Characters into the BP mythos with Zero reason for them being there (seriously Eden is there and is required for whatever reason to enter the djalia and summon the previous Panthers for??
He has nothing to do with BP) Storm.. need I say more? And now Thunderball. Coates throws out the word slave a bunch and how Wakandans are now Invaders, who were losing until some turned to gods or something? This whole plot is stupid and does nothing except paint Wakanda in a terrible light.
Rape
Misogyny
Suicide bombers
Women treated as property to be given to men
3rd world stereotypical Africa
The government doesn't care (Tchalla is the government)
Slavery
Now colonialism

I mean seriously? This is what Coates 10year old self wanted to read? This is what he thinks some kid wants to be inspired by? Thinking this wonderful place is no different, maybe even worse then the rest of the world? This is what some kids"Spiderman" looks like? Nah this is BS. This Coates trying to make Wakanda into a magical safe negro nation where Africans are no different then the rest of the world, and despite being the most advanced nation on earth, they are still barely able to handle a slightly powered meta human and their 2 dozen goons.

I seriously hope Rise is a diamond as the current ongoing is utter horse dung
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 23, 2017, 08:20:10 am
(https://i.imgur.com/0jULF6X.jpg)


he even put them in chains.

he even sent them off to a reservation errrr I mean netherrealms

maybe next he will convert some of them to the proper religion
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: BlackRodimus on November 23, 2017, 08:29:29 am
Any chance this will be reversed in time for the movie?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 23, 2017, 08:39:30 am
(https://i.imgur.com/0jULF6X.jpg)


he even put them in chains.

he even sent them off to a reservation errrr I mean netherrealms

maybe next he will convert some of them to the proper religion

Nah go all the way. Wakanda is an Originator word. lol. I live in VA and so many things have native names.

Do a couple of the Originators look like the alien in the Wakanda Empire splash page?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 23, 2017, 08:51:04 am
(https://i.imgur.com/0jULF6X.jpg)


he even put them in chains.

he even sent them off to a reservation errrr I mean netherrealms

maybe next he will convert some of them to the proper religion

Nah go all the way. Wakanda is an Originator word. lol. I live in VA and so many things have native names.

Do a couple of the Originators look like the alien in the Wakanda Empire splash page?

Maybe wakanda has a baseball team called the Birnin Azzari Originators
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 23, 2017, 09:06:00 am
Also interesting was his wording about tge gods

"Then heroes rose among the. And on faith, heroes ascended to gods"


This is all going to relate to klaw and storm somehow
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ture on November 23, 2017, 09:09:56 am
Also interesting was his wording about tge gods

"Then heroes rose among the. And on faith, heroes ascended to gods"


This is all going to relate to klaw and storm somehow

Absolutely, while T'Challa has feet of clay or rather feet of vibranium encased cement.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Kimoyo on November 23, 2017, 09:14:45 am
Trying to understand how Marvel editorial could approve of something like this?  Is this evidence of a lapse of cultural understanding, 'well a black author is promoting it so it must be okay?', or a deliberate attempt to relegate Wakandans to an Anglo-Saxon historical equivalent for human atrocity, WTF!?!?!!!!!!  How is this happening, especially now!?!  Could the timing be an insidious, intentional plot? Uggh!  So frustratated, I'm not even sure I'm making sense!?!  Did this have anything to do with Alonso's departure?

Shame on you Mr. Coates!  Shame on you Marvel publishing! 

No peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: DigiCom on November 23, 2017, 09:25:18 am
I doubt it's deliberate.  Marvel has proven themselves far too short-sighted for that. 

All they see is "famous black writer + black character = $$$!"

Cville's theory that the Originators are the same as the aliens in that MARVEL LEGACY shot makes sense... because then the great TNC can claim that the empire is entirely due to Originator accomplishments, not Wakandan ingenuity.

(Go on, tell me he wouldn't do that.  I'll wait.)
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Booshman on November 24, 2017, 07:51:53 am
Trying to understand how Marvel editorial could approve of something like this?  Is this evidence of a lapse of cultural understanding, 'well a black author is promoting it so it must be okay?', or a deliberate attempt to relegate Wakandans to an Anglo-Saxon historical equivalent for human atrocity, WTF!?!?!!!!!!  How is this happening, especially now!?!  Could the timing be an insidious, intentional plot? Uggh!  So frustratated, I'm not even sure I'm making sense!?!  Did this have anything to do with Alonso's departure?

Shame on you Mr. Coates!  Shame on you Marvel publishing! 

No peace,

Mont

Wait...Alonso LEFT MARVEL?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 24, 2017, 07:57:59 am
Replaced by CB Cebulski as Editor-In-Chief
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 24, 2017, 11:56:47 am
I think what bothers me the most is that I don't see how any of this sh*t benefits T'challa.

I've been on record many times saying Wakanda and Wakandans are essentially red shirts to improve T'challa's stories. I'll sacrifice 10K of them to see T'challa beat on Black Dwarf. ect.

But I can't see a scenario where this enhances or elevates T'challa at all. At best, it is simply a historical anecdote that makes Wakanda look bad and gives unfans more ammunition. I mean, there are only so many outcomes for this...

1. It is an ignored historical antidote. We get some more panels of T'challa looking sad and cries to storm becasue his ancestors were dicks. That is sure to boost sales and bring in some fanks. it is never mentioned again.

2. He tries to broker a truce with the Originators and let them return to parts of Wakanda. which... ok? is that a feat? does anyone give a sh*t? And i mean sh*t... these people did just pop back up and murder willy nilly. Why would Wakandans want these dudes are neighbors? Why should they gve up their homes for somethign there ancestors did 10's of thousands of years ago?

I mean sh*t.. if some Native Americans organized and slaughtered a bunch of civilians on "there land" tomorrow and trump went, "oh sh*t, i actuall read a history book and what we did was terrible! Ok, I need Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Montana residents and move out and we are giving the Natives that land as their own country." ... who here is gonna pack up? Who here is going to welcome all those poeple as neighbors that just got displaced?

3. move out of Wakanda to the galactic empire. That is laughably stupid all around. Same as above but worse. And then... then what? Movie is about to drop and you get rid of earth Wakanda? Gonna move the vibranium mound there too? You know how many cosmic properties sell? 1 (thor) or maaaaaaaaybe 2 (GoG). That is it. T'challa is not a cosmic character. This ia stupid and ludicrous idea.

4. give the origniators moon Wakanda. i dont' see how this elevates t'challa at all. "we took your land, he is some other land in space somewhere. good luck defendign yourself from the Brood or Shiar. bye"

So honestly, maybe this 5th option is best

5. T'challa travels to the Nether-Realm, tells the originators he is sorry what happend 20K years ago but they cannot come into Wakanda again. And then reconnects with Bast and Co and slaughters them all when they protest. The "heavy is the crown" option. Make T'chaka proud, f*ck the twitter consequences and get some feats out of it.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 24, 2017, 12:19:02 pm
6. T'Challa labels the plan fake news, invented by theRussians and there are no Orginators.  And Mother is actually Mother Russia in disguise.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 24, 2017, 12:23:06 pm
6. T'Challa labels the plan fake news, invented by theRussians and there are no Orginators.  And Mother is actually Mother Russia in disguise.


Lol


What if mother is actually tge god of the originators

Plottt twiiiiiist
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 24, 2017, 12:46:05 pm
6. T'Challa labels the plan fake news, invented by theRussians and there are no Orginators.  And Mother is actually Mother Russia in disguise.


Lol


What if mother is actually tge god of the originators

Plottt twiiiiiist

That is a good twist. lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on November 24, 2017, 01:50:03 pm
The easiest way to Recon the the vast majority or all of His run would be to make"Mother" a villan or at least unreliable narrator.. I'd make a her a Trickster god or an alien with the ability to change/worp people's perspective/mind or both..

Also you could go with a parasite like alien or god attaching itself to "Mother" taking her over and causing/creating all BS TNC made up..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 24, 2017, 02:08:46 pm
I think what bothers me the most is that I don't see how any of this sh*t benefits T'challa.

I've been on record many times saying Wakanda and Wakandans are essentially red shirts to improve T'challa's stories. I'll sacrifice 10K of them to see T'challa beat on Black Dwarf. ect.

But I can't see a scenario where this enhances or elevates T'challa at all. At best, it is simply a historical anecdote that makes Wakanda look bad and gives unfans more ammunition. I mean, there are only so many outcomes for this...

1. It is an ignored historical antidote. We get some more panels of T'challa looking sad and cries to storm becasue his ancestors were dicks. That is sure to boost sales and bring in some fanks. it is never mentioned again.

2. He tries to broker a truce with the Originators and let them return to parts of Wakanda. which... ok? is that a feat? does anyone give a sh*t? And i mean sh*t... these people did just pop back up and murder willy nilly. Why would Wakandans want these dudes are neighbors? Why should they gve up their homes for somethign there ancestors did 10's of thousands of years ago?

I mean sh*t.. if some Native Americans organized and slaughtered a bunch of civilians on "there land" tomorrow and trump went, "oh sh*t, i actuall read a history book and what we did was terrible! Ok, I need Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Montana residents and move out and we are giving the Natives that land as their own country." ... who here is gonna pack up? Who here is going to welcome all those poeple as neighbors that just got displaced?

3. move out of Wakanda to the galactic empire. That is laughably stupid all around. Same as above but worse. And then... then what? Movie is about to drop and you get rid of earth Wakanda? Gonna move the vibranium mound there too? You know how many cosmic properties sell? 1 (thor) or maaaaaaaaybe 2 (GoG). That is it. T'challa is not a cosmic character. This ia stupid and ludicrous idea.

4. give the origniators moon Wakanda. i dont' see how this elevates t'challa at all. "we took your land, he is some other land in space somewhere. good luck defendign yourself from the Brood or Shiar. bye"

So honestly, maybe this 5th option is best

5. T'challa travels to the Nether-Realm, tells the originators he is sorry what happend 20K years ago but they cannot come into Wakanda again. And then reconnects with Bast and Co and slaughters them all when they protest. The "heavy is the crown" option. Make T'chaka proud, f*ck the twitter consequences and get some feats out of it.

Nothing Coates does benefits Tchalla. It's all to impress his literary buddies. If he cared about T'Challa and elevating him. He would of had him go on a avenging spree righting The wrongs Wakanda faced. I mean what feat can you say he has under Coates? Ask people who are fans of his run and they say bringing the Dora's back... I mean really?
That's his big feat? That's how bad his run is, turning former allies back into allies is his shining achievements.

Option 5 is the best but I see it as one of the other 4 options Honestly
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 24, 2017, 02:14:49 pm
6. T'Challa labels the plan fake news, invented by theRussians and there are no Orginators.  And Mother is actually Mother Russia in disguise.


Lol


What if mother is actually tge god of the originators

Plottt twiiiiiist

That is a good twist. lol

It woukd work honestly

She gave shuri all this "knowledge and history" and made her a never before seen "griot" in an attempt to turn her and bring an avatar of bast to the "djalia"... aka tchalla... because he is tgey key to permanently open the gate. She needs the black panther to do it. Shuri wouldn't work bc she died.

The djalia is actually the Nether realm.

It would work!

Talking jibber jabber and metaphors are cool too tho... :(
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on November 24, 2017, 02:27:07 pm
If they start playing Yu-Gi-Oh to determine who goes there, I'm likely to flip a table like BoG suggest. lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 24, 2017, 02:40:21 pm
If they start playing Yu-Gi-Oh to determine who goes there, I'm likely to flip a table like BoG suggest. lol

Gotta believe in the heart of the cards!!!!!
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 24, 2017, 07:04:35 pm
6. T'Challa labels the plan fake news, invented by theRussians and there are no Orginators.  And Mother is actually Mother Russia in disguise.


Lol


What if mother is actually tge god of the originators

Plottt twiiiiiist

That is a good twist. lol

It woukd work honestly

She gave shuri all this "knowledge and history" and made her a never before seen "griot" in an attempt to turn her and bring an avatar of bast to the "djalia"... aka tchalla... because he is tgey key to permanently open the gate. She needs the black panther to do it. Shuri wouldn't work bc she died.

The djalia is actually the Nether realm.

It would work!

Talking jibber jabber and metaphors are cool too tho... :(

Funny how most folks on the HEF would of come up with 100x better situations for Coates garbage of a run.. using the same storyline he used, but elevating T'Challa,
Wakanda and giving out actual feats and not making Wakanda an offensive mess
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: DigiCom on November 24, 2017, 07:16:54 pm
I don't know what Coates has planned, personally.

But I'm 99.999% certain it will be crap.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: BamfingRoundTheWorld on November 25, 2017, 05:03:12 am
So like... this just completely threw a wrench in Wakanda's unconquerable un-colonized title. They were in fact conquered, by Wakandans themselves.

I said this before with the Doras and again with Planet Bast/Wakanda. Coates is trying too hard to leave his mark on the Black Panther. But unlike past writers, he's trying to tackle everything. Some things are best left untouched. Which is sad to say because I've always wanted to read a story about the beginning of Wakanda. Bashenga especially.

Coates not only failed to see the point King T'Challa aka Black Panther, he also failed too understand the point of Wakanda as a whole.

What's next, T'Chaka abused T'Challa & Shuri like he was Joe Jackson and abused his wives like he was Ike Turner?

Why would someone who is new to writing fiction be given so much leeway to utterly destroy such a cornerstone of Marvel.

Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on November 25, 2017, 05:16:59 am
Lets not forget wajanda is wakanda bc they took dome fields from the nigsndans as well.

And they are unconquered bc of natural resources, not tge whoke advanced blessed bt a god warrior thing

Dudes a beta who has something against hyper masculinity. Should prolly get his testosterone levels checked. Hell his tchalla is hard in the friend zone while alphas like logan treat storm like a side chick

Whats next?

HZ police brutality

Plot twist, wakandans use albino wakandans as slaves in the mines, hunter was actually one of them!

Secret underground panther fighting ring

Wakanda wealth actually came from illegal ivory trade

Wakanda assasinated kennedy bc he was a threat

Tchalla gets high on his HSH supply

Cure for cancer didnt work

Shuri had an abortion during her party years

25 wakandans accuse Ngassi of sexual harassment

Changamire is tchallas real dad
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 25, 2017, 05:50:31 am
You sure you want to give him (and those who may follow his path) ideas?!?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on November 25, 2017, 08:41:48 am
Coates doesn't care, This is what he wanted to read as a child. Something telling him that since he is a male he is either inept, uncaring, or an abuser.. I mean someone like that should not be writing comics to "inspire" little black boys to be ashamed and think so little of themselves. This is what marvel fails to see, this is what Coogler sees and why he is doing what he is doing with the movie, and this is what Redjack sees when it comes to the animation side of things.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on November 25, 2017, 09:40:06 pm
I think what bothers me the most is that I don't see how any of this sh*t benefits T'challa.

I've been on record many times saying Wakanda and Wakandans are essentially red shirts to improve T'challa's stories. I'll sacrifice 10K of them to see T'challa beat on Black Dwarf. ect.

But I can't see a scenario where this enhances or elevates T'challa at all. At best, it is simply a historical anecdote that makes Wakanda look bad and gives unfans more ammunition. I mean, there are only so many outcomes for this...

1. It is an ignored historical antidote. We get some more panels of T'challa looking sad and cries to storm becasue his ancestors were dicks. That is sure to boost sales and bring in some fanks. it is never mentioned again.

2. He tries to broker a truce with the Originators and let them return to parts of Wakanda. which... ok? is that a feat? does anyone give a sh*t? And i mean sh*t... these people did just pop back up and murder willy nilly. Why would Wakandans want these dudes are neighbors? Why should they gve up their homes for somethign there ancestors did 10's of thousands of years ago?

I mean sh*t.. if some Native Americans organized and slaughtered a bunch of civilians on "there land" tomorrow and trump went, "oh sh*t, i actuall read a history book and what we did was terrible! Ok, I need Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Montana residents and move out and we are giving the Natives that land as their own country." ... who here is gonna pack up? Who here is going to welcome all those poeple as neighbors that just got displaced?

3. move out of Wakanda to the galactic empire. That is laughably stupid all around. Same as above but worse. And then... then what? Movie is about to drop and you get rid of earth Wakanda? Gonna move the vibranium mound there too? You know how many cosmic properties sell? 1 (thor) or maaaaaaaaybe 2 (GoG). That is it. T'challa is not a cosmic character. This ia stupid and ludicrous idea.

4. give the origniators moon Wakanda. i dont' see how this elevates t'challa at all. "we took your land, he is some other land in space somewhere. good luck defendign yourself from the Brood or Shiar. bye"

So honestly, maybe this 5th option is best

5. T'challa travels to the Nether-Realm, tells the originators he is sorry what happend 20K years ago but they cannot come into Wakanda again. And then reconnects with Bast and Co and slaughters them all when they protest. The "heavy is the crown" option. Make T'chaka proud, f*ck the twitter consequences and get some feats out of it.

I get the impression the native-wakaliens have their indian reservation in the place that becomes the intergalactic empire planet thing, or something like that.   Banished to some place that was the planet and they built what they built. 

Tho that they would all of a sudden let black-face christopher columbus be their god king is questionable.  But with lazy crap writing all things are possible.

I don't see any feats coming from this.   
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: True Father Sankofa on November 26, 2017, 08:41:57 pm
One of the worst single issue Panther comics I ever read. It is so hard not to doze off reading this crap but from what I caught this fool Coates done thrown all the Panther mythos out the window and trying to reinvent the wheel with this originators crap. I'm disgusted!
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 27, 2017, 04:33:20 am
Why are they called "Orginators?". Strange name for a people to call itself without meaning.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: DigiCom on November 27, 2017, 02:32:31 pm
Because "The folks who were here first" isn't pretentious enough?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 28, 2017, 05:32:31 am
I am not touching anything with that fool Coates' name on it. I cannot believe how supremely unfit and incompetent this fool is. He wants his run to be the most important run in history for BP? How? By gutting the character and doing zero good with/for him in the whole time he was on the book?

Get him off. Now. Before the magnificent Coogler's work sends thousands of fans to his book thinking that they'll see MCU BLACK PANTHER, then abandon the book in droves over a span of 2 months or so. Only to receive another boost from INFINITY WARS. Unfortunately these well meaning truly enthusiastic would be longtime fans would not only turn away permanently from BP comics due to TNC's garbage, but their temporary economic impact will conspire to rescue that BS that TNC writes; extending his longevity on the book for years.

I will probably become a mainly DC and Indie fan, if this occurs.

TNC. Ta-Nehisi Coates. His very name defiles us and our ancestors. "Ta"? That fool doesn't deserve such a tremendous and proud to be Black name. If a true Afrakan worthy of the name "Ta" wrote BP? We would be awash with amazing BP feats from page one. I mean, Hickman gave TNC an AMAZING set of conditions for T'Challa to rock hard.

TNC should stand for Traitor to Nations of Color. Turncoat Negro Creator. Trump Narrating Comics.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: True Father Sankofa on December 03, 2017, 07:21:59 pm
I am not touching anything with that fool Coates' name on it. I cannot believe how supremely unfit and incompetent this fool is. He wants his run to be the most important run in history for BP? How? By gutting the character and doing zero good with/for him in the whole time he was on the book?

Get him off. Now. Before the magnificent Coogler's work sends thousands of fans to his book thinking that they'll see MCU BLACK PANTHER, then abandon the book in droves over a span of 2 months or so. Only to receive another boost from INFINITY WARS. Unfortunately these well meaning truly enthusiastic would be longtime fans would not only turn away permanently from BP comics due to TNC's garbage, but their temporary economic impact will conspire to rescue that BS that TNC writes; extending his longevity on the book for years.

I will probably become a mainly DC and Indie fan, if this occurs.

TNC. Ta-Nehisi Coates. His very name defiles us and our ancestors. "Ta"? That fool doesn't deserve such a tremendous and proud to be Black name. If a true Afrakan worthy of the name "Ta" wrote BP? We would be awash with amazing BP feats from page one. I mean, Hickman gave TNC an AMAZING set of conditions for T'Challa to rock hard.

TNC should stand for Traitor to Nations of Color. Turncoat Negro Creator. Trump Narrating Comics.

DAMN! Lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 18, 2017, 08:17:40 am
> 92. Black Panther #167 (Marvel) - 23,784
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 08:21:53 am
> 92. Black Panther #167 (Marvel) - 23,784

I was just about to check on this lol.

This book could've been sub 20k by now if not for that legacy bullsh*t sales bump

f*cking Marvel..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: CvilleWakandan on December 18, 2017, 09:08:05 am
That 30,000 bump must have been mostly free ships. New issue will be lower. More hardcore BP fans dropping due to latest issue.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 18, 2017, 09:13:35 am
This is what happens when your write a boring story with Zero Respect for the title Character and basically making the mythos Colombus in Black face. Plus we are 8 issue's into this season and nothing has happened. It's the same as last season. Of your going to tell a year long story,
then you need to actually have substance to support it.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 09:28:36 am
We just gotta get down to 20k if not sub 20 by the end of this season. 

We can get him outta here by season 3 but we need that downward spiral
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 18, 2017, 09:56:06 am
7 thousand people jumped off at athe end of season one

a similar thing happening in season 2 would end the book. Even if its just 5k which is entirely possible considering it is a 12 issue arc again.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 11:05:00 am
7 thousand people jumped off at athe end of season one

a similar thing happening in season 2 would end the book. Even if its just 5k which is entirely possible considering it is a 12 issue arc again.

Yup, that's been the master plan since season 2 began.

The book might hold at 22-23k on through April/May because of the movie but i'm counting on a continued dip despite it.  I just need the book to be as close to 20k when that next jump off happens. 
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 18, 2017, 11:34:11 am
7 thousand people jumped off at athe end of season one

a similar thing happening in season 2 would end the book. Even if its just 5k which is entirely possible considering it is a 12 issue arc again.

Yup, that's been the master plan since season 2 began.

The book might hold at 22-23k on through April/May because of the movie but i'm counting on a continued dip despite it.  I just need the book to be as close to 20k when that next jump off happens.

Folks dipped out and we are 8 issues into S2,
 It's entirely possible that the drop could be low enough within the next couple of issues to kill off the series, what I'm more curious about is what will marvel do, will they try and boost his sales or relaunch the book with Coates still on it. It would be nice of they got smart and brought in Hudlin Instead to do work. Afn give us that unapologetic Black panther excellence that has been missing literally since he left the book
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 18, 2017, 11:43:01 am
I don't understand how we are 2 months from the movie and BP isn't even on any teams

i mean, wtf?
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 18, 2017, 12:07:11 pm
I don't understand how we are 2 months from the movie and BP isn't even on any teams

i mean, wtf?

I was wonder what happened with Aaron's bc Avengers and if that was supposed to transfer over to the modern time like that legacy book teased..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 12:21:47 pm
7 thousand people jumped off at athe end of season one

a similar thing happening in season 2 would end the book. Even if its just 5k which is entirely possible considering it is a 12 issue arc again.

Yup, that's been the master plan since season 2 began.

The book might hold at 22-23k on through April/May because of the movie but i'm counting on a continued dip despite it.  I just need the book to be as close to 20k when that next jump off happens.

Folks dipped out and we are 8 issues into S2,
 It's entirely possible that the drop could be low enough within the next couple of issues to kill off the series, what I'm more curious about is what will marvel do, will they try and boost his sales or relaunch the book with Coates still on it. It would be nice of they got smart and brought in Hudlin Instead to do work. Afn give us that unapologetic Black panther excellence that has been missing literally since he left the book


That's where things would get tricky.  If my 18k by issue 18 ambitions had come to fruition, then that would've given Marvel enough time -six issues or roughly 6 months before the end of season 2- to find a replacement for the relaunch.

And it would let TC know that people aren't f*cking with his book anymore, which is just as important b/c him knowing he's lost the attention of readers would increase the chances of him agreeing to just walk away instead of feeble relaunches with him still onboard... which would just be a waste of everyone's time.

Hudlin would be ideal (i know he has a massive plate with Milestone) but i'd even take whatever carousel of comic book writers in the interim.. b/c any one of such would be easier to get rid of when the time comes compared to the stick in the dry cement we have now.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 18, 2017, 01:16:59 pm
I guess my problem is that unless they can be a break out like potentially Evan, I don't want just anybody coming in and using Tchalla as a stepping stool. I really hope Evan has a Hudlin situation (even if he isn't at his level in terms of high sales, consistent sales 40-45k and GOOD showings of Tchalla) and can get an ongoing if he is going to bat for Tchalla. I would also like a writer with sone skill to write BP fully realized, at this point white, Black, green, purple doesn't matter, as long as they have his best interests at heart. I would be interested in what Pak would do I Also think now would be a Good Chance for Redjack (wherever he is looming at) to nake a pitch. I know I talked to him on the CBR a while back about writing BP and he said he felt he missed the chance to write BP and that he is in a different direction now, but I talked him into remembering that direction can change and if he goes to bat for Tchalla, that's all that matters
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 01:36:51 pm
I'd consider Evan as part of that carousal of writers I speak of.  Meaning if he does great, great but if he doesn't, he's nothing special or hard to get rid of. 

Actually, Evans would probably be outside of my carousal bc i want comic book writers.  No more guest entertainers.  No more of that. 

Pak would be in my carousal.  Hell, so would Ewing.  I'd take 6-8 issues of Ewing in the interim over our current guy.  Beggars can't be choosers and i'm all but begging to get this guy outta here, for the sake of all that is good in Wakanda.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 18, 2017, 01:49:50 pm
Basically every writer outside of someone like Aaron is on a carasol these days. pretty rare what Aaron is doing on Thor... he has been in control of Thor since 2012. i can't think of anyone else that has a run like that right now.

if you even make it into the twenties its a pretty long run.

Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 18, 2017, 01:58:56 pm
Aaron, Bendis, Hickman, Geoff Johns.. they take strangleholds on the characters and if you're a fan of the character you just gotta hope for the best b/c you stuck with that writers manipulations for the long haul.

That's pretty much our current predicament but, fortunately, and the big difference is the writer we have doesn't bring about big sales like his apologists would have people believe.

Once he's gone, just get an experienced comic book writer and give him clear objectives on what he needs to include.  We don't even need a 360 windmill slam dunk.  Just make the freethrows at a steady clip.

Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 18, 2017, 02:33:13 pm
Hopefully Evan nails it, but I would take:
Ewing, he would give good feats before he got distracted and he would use continuity for better or worse.

Pak Because he likes Tchalla and had used him in TA hulk and has consistently given him good showings as well as some new titles.

I would like to see what Waid would do as he has expressed interest.

But the biggest current experience writer I KNOW would go to bat for T'Challa that would be available realistically is Redjack. And I Know T'Challa would be in good hands.

So
1 Redjack
2 Waid
3 Pak
4 Ewing
Bonus Evan as a break out rookie
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on December 19, 2017, 11:34:50 am
Aaron, Bendis, Hickman, Geoff Johns.. they take strangleholds on the characters and if you're a fan of the character you just gotta hope for the best b/c you stuck with that writers manipulations for the long haul.

That's pretty much our current predicament but, fortunately, and the big difference is the writer we have doesn't bring about big sales like his apologists would have people believe.

Once he's gone, just get an experienced comic book writer and give him clear objectives on what he needs to include.  We don't even need a 360 windmill slam dunk.  Just make the freethrows at a steady clip.



I'd add Pak & Ewing to your list well they used characters are considering a list & will used the characters over multiple books/projects..

Ewing has had control over Spectrum &  BM snice 2013-2017
Power Man/Vic & White tigers -2013- Jan/feb 2017
Sunspot -2015 to present

Pak

Cho - off and on snice his creation
Banner & the Hulk franchise on & off snice 2006 they keep trying other writer book/franchise but none of them usually able to hit the mark like Pak has
Herc - 2008-2012
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 19, 2017, 11:38:30 am
i dont think Ewing "owns" those character

nobody else cares about them enough to use them lol

Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 19, 2017, 12:00:50 pm
To be fair to David Walker, the whole Defenders brand isn't as strong as i thought it was going to be.  I overstated and overated it.

I owe Walker an apology for thinking it was his own marketability (or lack thereof) when, in truth, Bendis couldn't have done sh*t with a Luke Cage solo series (or PM&IF buddy book) either.  Case in point: the Defenders got the art and action and guest appearances, and nobody cares.  23k on issue 7.  With Bendis name on it.

I look back at David Walker's "luck": Nobody cares about Nighthawk.  Cyborg fails with or without him (it's at 10k right now on issue #18, with him long gone).  PM&IF actually didn't do terribly bad despite art that was a crime against humanity.  And then there's Luke Cage... I'm not sure what writer makes our current iteration of Luke Cage not fail, b/c he's just boring and neutered now. There's nothing left for him to do but" live happy ever after" and be the sitcom dad for Danielle on a freeform channel tv show 15 years from now.

David Walker, i still found your Nighthawk uninspiring and your Luke Cage kinda lame, but I apologize for thinking you were the reason some of these characters were face-planting sales wise.  I was wrong (i think).
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 19, 2017, 12:10:39 pm
To be fair to David Walker, the whole Defenders brand isn't as strong as i thought it was going to be.  I overstated and overated it.

I owe Walker an apology for thinking it was his own marketability (or lack thereof) when, in truth, Bendis couldn't have done sh*t with a Luke Cage solo series (or PM&IF buddy book) either.  Case in point: the Defenders got the art and action and guest appearances, and nobody cares.  23k on issue 7.  With Bendis name on it.

I look back at David Walker's "luck": Nobody cares about Nighthawk.  Cyborg fails with or without him (it's at 10k right now on issue #18, with him long gone).  PM&IF actually didn't do terribly bad despite art that was a crime against humanity.  And then there's Luke Cage... I'm not sure what writer makes our current iteration of Luke Cage not fail, b/c he's just boring and neutered now. There's nothing left for him to do but" live happy ever after" and be the sitcom dad for Danielle on a freeform channel tv show 15 years from now.

David Walker, i still found your Nighthawk uninspiring and your Luke Cage kinda lame, but I apologize for thinking you were the reason some of these characters were face-planting sales wise.  I was wrong (i think).

scary thought for us hoping to get rid of Coates

25K used to be the cutoff to death

then 20K

what if its 15K now?

There are a LOT of titles right now that are hanging under 20K

jessica jones, iron fist, jean grey, falcon, ms marvel, captain marvel, gen x, gwenpool, black bolt, iceman, luke cage, haweye, usavengers, royals

are we sure under 20K makes coates go away?


Re: Luke Cage

He works best leading a team now. His super powers are his leadership and "won't stop" attitude, not his meh strength and durabilty.

He should have been the de factor leader of the Defenders (jj, if, and matt are the direct opposite of leaders) but instead the team kinda meanders around with no leadership.

He needs to lead mighty/new/defender/street level avengers teams/thunderbolts.

Re: Walker

yeah, maybe we were too harsh sales wise.

PM/IF was an intriguing and different street level story

Nighthawk was still garbage though
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on December 19, 2017, 12:11:54 pm
To be fair to David Walker, the whole Defenders brand isn't as strong as i thought it was going to be.  I overstated and overated it.

I owe Walker an apology for thinking it was his own marketability (or lack thereof) when, in truth, Bendis couldn't have done sh*t with a Luke Cage solo series (or PM&IF buddy book) either.  Case in point: the Defenders got the art and action and guest appearances, and nobody cares.  23k on issue 7.  With Bendis name on it.

I look back at David Walker's "luck": Nobody cares about Nighthawk.  Cyborg fails with or without him (it's at 10k right now on issue #18, with him long gone).  PM&IF actually didn't do terribly bad despite art that was a crime against humanity.  And then there's Luke Cage... I'm not sure what writer makes our current iteration of Luke Cage not fail, b/c he's just boring and neutered now. There's nothing left for him to do but" live happy ever after" and be the sitcom dad for Danielle on a freeform channel tv show 15 years from now.

David Walker, i still found your Nighthawk uninspiring and your Luke Cage kinda lame, but I apologize for thinking you were the reason some of these characters were face-planting sales wise.  I was wrong (i think).

That's very big of u my brother..

I must be the only one who like/loved the art on Cage/white savior fist..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 19, 2017, 12:19:26 pm
To be fair to David Walker, the whole Defenders brand isn't as strong as i thought it was going to be.  I overstated and overated it.

I owe Walker an apology for thinking it was his own marketability (or lack thereof) when, in truth, Bendis couldn't have done sh*t with a Luke Cage solo series (or PM&IF buddy book) either.  Case in point: the Defenders got the art and action and guest appearances, and nobody cares.  23k on issue 7.  With Bendis name on it.

I look back at David Walker's "luck": Nobody cares about Nighthawk.  Cyborg fails with or without him (it's at 10k right now on issue #18, with him long gone).  PM&IF actually didn't do terribly bad despite art that was a crime against humanity.  And then there's Luke Cage... I'm not sure what writer makes our current iteration of Luke Cage not fail, b/c he's just boring and neutered now. There's nothing left for him to do but" live happy ever after" and be the sitcom dad for Danielle on a freeform channel tv show 15 years from now.

David Walker, i still found your Nighthawk uninspiring and your Luke Cage kinda lame, but I apologize for thinking you were the reason some of these characters were face-planting sales wise.  I was wrong (i think).

scary thought for us hoping to get rid of Coates

25K used to be the cutoff to death

then 20K

what if its 15K now?

There are a LOT of titles right now that are hanging under 20K

jessica jones, iron fist, jean grey, falcon, ms marvel, captain marvel, gen x, gwenpool, black bolt, iceman, luke cage, haweye, usavengers, royals

are we sure under 20K makes coates go away?


Re: Luke Cage

He works best leading a team now. His super powers are his leadership and "won't stop" attitude, not his meh strength and durabilty.

He should have been the de factor leader of the Defenders (jj, if, and matt are the direct opposite of leaders) but instead the team kinda meanders around with no leadership.

He needs to lead mighty/new/defender/street level avengers teams/thunderbolts.

Re: Walker

yeah, maybe we were too harsh sales wise.

PM/IF was an intriguing and different street level story

Nighthawk was still garbage though
Trade's make the difference now..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 19, 2017, 01:58:33 pm
To be fair to David Walker, the whole Defenders brand isn't as strong as i thought it was going to be.  I overstated and overated it.

I owe Walker an apology for thinking it was his own marketability (or lack thereof) when, in truth, Bendis couldn't have done sh*t with a Luke Cage solo series (or PM&IF buddy book) either.  Case in point: the Defenders got the art and action and guest appearances, and nobody cares.  23k on issue 7.  With Bendis name on it.

I look back at David Walker's "luck": Nobody cares about Nighthawk.  Cyborg fails with or without him (it's at 10k right now on issue #18, with him long gone).  PM&IF actually didn't do terribly bad despite art that was a crime against humanity.  And then there's Luke Cage... I'm not sure what writer makes our current iteration of Luke Cage not fail, b/c he's just boring and neutered now. There's nothing left for him to do but" live happy ever after" and be the sitcom dad for Danielle on a freeform channel tv show 15 years from now.

David Walker, i still found your Nighthawk uninspiring and your Luke Cage kinda lame, but I apologize for thinking you were the reason some of these characters were face-planting sales wise.  I was wrong (i think).

scary thought for us hoping to get rid of Coates

25K used to be the cutoff to death

then 20K

what if its 15K now?

There are a LOT of titles right now that are hanging under 20K

jessica jones, iron fist, jean grey, falcon, ms marvel, captain marvel, gen x, gwenpool, black bolt, iceman, luke cage, haweye, usavengers, royals

are we sure under 20K makes coates go away?

Let's not speak of such evil things
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 19, 2017, 02:08:24 pm
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2017, 02:36:35 pm
I am not touching anything with that fool Coates' name on it. I cannot believe how supremely unfit and incompetent this fool is. He wants his run to be the most important run in history for BP? How? By gutting the character and doing zero good with/for him in the whole time he was on the book?

Get him off. Now. Before the magnificent Coogler's work sends thousands of fans to his book thinking that they'll see MCU BLACK PANTHER, then abandon the book in droves over a span of 2 months or so. Only to receive another boost from INFINITY WARS. Unfortunately these well meaning truly enthusiastic would be longtime fans would not only turn away permanently from BP comics due to TNC's garbage, but their temporary economic impact will conspire to rescue that BS that TNC writes; extending his longevity on the book for years.

I will probably become a mainly DC and Indie fan, if this occurs.

TNC. Ta-Nehisi Coates. His very name defiles us and our ancestors. "Ta"? That fool doesn't deserve such a tremendous and proud to be Black name. If a true Afrakan worthy of the name "Ta" wrote BP? We would be awash with amazing BP feats from page one. I mean, Hickman gave TNC an AMAZING set of conditions for T'Challa to rock hard.

TNC should stand for Traitor to Nations of Color. Turncoat Negro Creator. Trump Narrating Comics.

DAMN! Lol

I'm sayin!

And what makes this worse? Is that I was SINGING THIS FOOL'S PRAISES BEFORE HE STARTED THE BOOK. I was looking at his credentials, and he seemed the best fit for the book since R to the H left. I thought we were going to get RIDICULOUSLY GOOD STORIES.

Oh Lawdy, was I WRONG. This dude has been butt droppings from jumpstreet.

The only stellar happenings regarding BP on the comic side? Are when RH and CJP return. But their short stories will simply fire us up and piss us off. Fire us up because we haven't seen the true BP since R to the H left. And piss us off because we have to vomit all the more at the lard of TNC [ TChalla's Never Competent ] that TNC [ Turncoat Negro Creator, not Ta-Nahesi Coates ] creates.

I hope Cornel West tears a new one into this guy by using his work on T'Chumpa The Bland Panther as a platform to extrapolate from.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 19, 2017, 03:08:40 pm
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

I bet we wouldn't see Carol bossing everyone around, because she clearly isn't the most qualified on that team at all. It was annoying how much she was leading.
 
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on December 19, 2017, 03:10:21 pm
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

That's a good question, honestly I think it would've sold some what better ( especially if you KR stayed on it).. One of reasons it seems sales/retailers order drop was due to art changes & Cosmic Talking Heads boredom.. I don't think Walker would done that plot (CTH) & if he did he would've more than likely done it differently or make it much smarter part of book..

Another mistake I think he would've avoided would be out BP, Spectrum & BM more so in back while focus more on CD, MAC & BiG G/CTH..
S & BM fans have been following Ewing books snice 2013 & have been waiting for pay off, we're told they would get a pay off & what was received was half ass at best..
BP fans had been waiting to see on this type of team for yrs & what got was hm taken a back seat overall to CD (who was a lead in another team book at times plus).. We expect BP to be written down when he's around Steve O, Reed R & Tony S rest of good old white folks club to to add insult to injury is have him written down/take a back seat for folks like CD & Namor who at this point sales/retailers buy half there amount there book than they will buy for BP & watching said characters be handed teen book opportunities over and over again while BP struggles to get them for reasons we all know..



Form 2013 to present Ewing has a tight hold on black/brown & LG characters at marvel that they allowed to push on used regularly..

 IMO he didn't properly assist in value his black and brown readers or an cater to them and is he did too his lesbian and gay fans.. if he gave Wiccan hulkling, Mac, Toni & etc the treatment he gave Sunspot, Spectrum blue Marvel, BP, Power Man, White tiger, BM kids than many gays/lesbian fans would be calling him homophobes.. while I don't think Ewing is racist ( well no more racist than the average white person is) I do think he was misguided, miss the mark and at times was disingenuous when it came to Black/Brown characters he was working with..

 That's something I don't think Walker wouldve done.. I believe he would found away to give both the black and brown characters and the lesbian and gay characters equal treatment in a team book setting as to how their relationships with each other where handle and their powers and etc if he was writing.. I due feel we would've maybe added some unnecessary interracial relationship at some point but that's just me ( anything other than War Machine and Danvers would have been unnecessary to me)..
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Battle on December 19, 2017, 03:54:18 pm


I'm sayin!

And what makes this worse? Is that I was SINGING THIS FOOL'S PRAISES BEFORE HE STARTED THE BOOK. I was looking at his credentials, and he seemed the best fit for the book since R to the H left. I thought we were going to get RIDICULOUSLY GOOD STORIES.





Same here, Supreme...

---Well...

Didn't express my anticipation here at HEF but I was thinkin' it!  ;D



What a let down.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ture on December 19, 2017, 07:45:59 pm
However and whenever Coates leaves Black Panther, I think Marvel will not only want a big name to follow him up but an Afrakan (aka Black) writer as well. This to me signals Hudlin's return. He has...  the name recognition, history with the character, will have Milestone out in the field, Hollywood connects, poised to do another cartoon (post Redjack's) and is Storm friendly (for those desiring such). Make Hudlin's debut a major summer crossover event entitled World War Wakanda coming in the wake of Black Panther and Avenger Infinity Wars.  I think is an ideal way to proceed.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: supreme illuminati on December 19, 2017, 07:52:41 pm
However and whenever Coates leaves Black Panther, I think Marvel will not only want a big name to follow him up but an Afrakan (aka Black) writer as well. This to me signals Hudlin's return. He has...  the name recognition, history with the character, will have Milestone out in the field, Hollywood connects, poised to do another cartoon (post Redjack's) and is Storm friendly (for those desiring such). Make Hudlin's debut a major summer crossover event entitled World War Wakanda coming in the wake of Black Panther and Avenger Infinity Wars.  I think is an ideal way to proceed.

This ^^^makes too much sense for Marvel to ever greenlight. So. I'm pessimistic about it.
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: MindofShadow on December 20, 2017, 05:20:22 am
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

I think Ultimates held a niche for a long time of being the only true cosmic book (because people don't consider Thor cosmic for whatever reason and cosmic people hated Bendis Guardians) and Ewing about made those people orgasm with all the abstract high concept sci fi mumbo jumbo he was doing.

IDK if Walker could have scratched the same niche. Ewing also had a hardcore comic cult following for awhile as he was a nerd darling thanks to his continuity stuff that Walker never seem to have.

Judging by how badly Royals and USAvengers have sold, i don't think he has that following anymore. Ewings warts starting appearing the more he wrote (meandering storylines and focusing on the wrong sh*t).

So you would have had a trade off. You would have lost the Ewing followers and maybe the cosmic F4 loving nuts... but you would have likely gotten a much more straight forward superhero story that likely would have focused on the actual Ultimates lol.

so who knows... the strongest property Walker has been allowed to write is PM/IF with stupid art and it made it 15 issues at least.

TLDR: I don't know what sells anymore lol
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 20, 2017, 06:09:31 am
Atleast Tchalla got some cool feats even though the book started to flounder
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 21, 2017, 11:17:12 am
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

That's a good question, honestly I think it would've sold some what better ( especially if you KR stayed on it).. One of reasons it seems sales/retailers order drop was due to art changes & Cosmic Talking Heads boredom.. I don't think Walker would done that plot (CTH) & if he did he would've more than likely done it differently or make it much smarter part of book..

Another mistake I think he would've avoided would be out BP, Spectrum & BM more so in back while focus more on CD, MAC & BiG G/CTH..
S & BM fans have been following Ewing books snice 2013 & have been waiting for pay off, we're told they would get a pay off & what was received was half ass at best..
BP fans had been waiting to see on this type of team for yrs & what got was hm taken a back seat overall to CD (who was a lead in another team book at times plus).. We expect BP to be written down when he's around Steve O, Reed R & Tony S rest of good old white folks club to to add insult to injury is have him written down/take a back seat for folks like CD & Namor who at this point sales/retailers buy half there amount there book than they will buy for BP & watching said characters be handed teen book opportunities over and over again while BP struggles to get them for reasons we all know..



Form 2013 to present Ewing has a tight hold on black/brown & LG characters at marvel that they allowed to push on used regularly..

 IMO he didn't properly assist in value his black and brown readers or an cater to them and is he did too his lesbian and gay fans.. if he gave Wiccan hulkling, Mac, Toni & etc the treatment he gave Sunspot, Spectrum blue Marvel, BP, Power Man, White tiger, BM kids than many gays/lesbian fans would be calling him homophobes.. while I don't think Ewing is racist ( well no more racist than the average white person is) I do think he was misguided, miss the mark and at times was disingenuous when it came to Black/Brown characters he was working with..

 That's something I don't think Walker wouldve done.. I believe he would found away to give both the black and brown characters and the lesbian and gay characters equal treatment in a team book setting as to how their relationships with each other where handle and their powers and etc if he was writing.. I due feel we would've maybe added some unnecessary interracial relationship at some point but that's just me ( anything other than War Machine and Danvers would have been unnecessary to me)..

This makes a lot of sense.  And yea, I don't know whether Walker could've made the main storyline or overall conflict interesting for me (though he probably couldn't do worse than Ewing) but i think he would've given us what we expected as far as meaningful character interactions and some sort of growth or nuance among the characters that the book is supposed to be about.  If there's any indication with what we wanted to with Cyborg, before DC cockblocked him, he probably would've focused on Blue Adam's perspective vs how it contrasts with Monica's (as a black woman and his gf) and T'Challa (as a younger black/african man).  Leadership styles and outlook of life (or space), etc.

And i don't know whether it would've led to the swirl life (only b/c she was still dating Rhodey at the time, no promises come season 2 tho lol) but i think he would've added more nuance to T'Challa and Carol's forced editorial-imposed half-assed beef.  I think the black characters would've took center stage.  Although i get the feeling that it was Marvel pushing Carol to be at the forefront of the book, just like they later then pushed for America Chavez to have her profile raised, so Ewing simply (lazily) made her the "leader" of the team in season 2, a ceremonial title at best, before he promptly went back to ignoring the main cast in favor of the random cosmic people
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Ezyo on December 21, 2017, 11:22:41 am
yeah the book started off good and even sounded amazing in Ewing's interviews, but then it all went to sh*t by issue 4 pretty much done. Carol was "leader" and was sh*tty at it, Chavez was just kinda there. Even she went WWE on Carol I never got the impression that she could actually shut down the team if they got out of line. It looked like by the time thanos broke out,  she was being contained.
All in all it was some good feats for T'Challa and a bunch of mumbo jumbo everywhere else
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 21, 2017, 11:38:15 am
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

I think Ultimates held a niche for a long time of being the only true cosmic book (because people don't consider Thor cosmic for whatever reason and cosmic people hated Bendis Guardians) and Ewing about made those people orgasm with all the abstract high concept sci fi mumbo jumbo he was doing.

IDK if Walker could have scratched the same niche. Ewing also had a hardcore comic cult following for awhile as he was a nerd darling thanks to his continuity stuff that Walker never seem to have.

Judging by how badly Royals and USAvengers have sold, i don't think he has that following anymore. Ewings warts starting appearing the more he wrote (meandering storylines and focusing on the wrong sh*t).

So you would have had a trade off. You would have lost the Ewing followers and maybe the cosmic F4 loving nuts... but you would have likely gotten a much more straight forward superhero story that likely would have focused on the actual Ultimates lol.

so who knows... the strongest property Walker has been allowed to write is PM/IF with stupid art and it made it 15 issues at least.

TLDR: I don't know what sells anymore lol

Ewing definitely had a niche fan base or at least he was living off of that rookie of the year type hype for when he first got on the scene with Mighty Avengers (or he may have been around long before that, but that was simply the first time i knew of him.  I think).
I don't know how to attribute Ultimates' success.  On one hand T'Challa wasn't in it enough for BP fans to care like that (we let the Crew and WoW burn to the ground for pulling a similar neglect to BP), Carol fans are a figment of their own imagination, and nobody really cares about Adam, Monica  :-\ or America Chavez. 

On the other hand, are 22k people a month really holding steady for what essentially became a Galactus ongoing series guest starring made up space creatures 80% of us had never heard of? Marinated with crappy art? That's just hard to believe.  Silver Surfer solo was like 15k and i would guess (never read it) that it covered somewhat similar themes.

So maybe it was Ewing's fan base.. but like you said, they been left him. 

It actually makes me wonder if people actually liked the concept of the team (i.e. the actual cast) and were waiting for something relevant to happen... and just held study through the CWII crossover and resulting fall out/lead-in to season 2, and then just finally got fed up.

But if so, they showed a llllllllot of patience waiting that long. idk
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: Mortal Man on December 21, 2017, 11:40:45 am
yeah the book started off good and even sounded amazing in Ewing's interviews, but then it all went to sh*t by issue 4 pretty much done. Carol was "leader" and was sh*tty at it, Chavez was just kinda there. Even she went WWE on Carol I never got the impression that she could actually shut down the team if they got out of line. It looked like by the time thanos broke out,  she was being contained.
All in all it was some good feats for T'Challa and a bunch of mumbo jumbo everywhere else

The pokeball is a game changer.

But I'll hate Ewing forever if it's never used again or even referred to.

Remember how he said they were going to be heralds of galactus but they could only use it occassionally?  He was lying through his cotdamn teeth!

But the pokeball is closest thing to that.

I'ma need Ewing's fan mail email address so i can call him out on that bullsh*t and remind him that the e-streets are watching his next move with T'Challa.  We demand consistency and continuity!
Title: Re: Black Panther #167 Spoilers
Post by: 4sake on December 22, 2017, 09:57:58 am
I now wonder how David Walker would've done on a book like the Ultimates.

Remember that it was cold out the gate: issue #1 was 60k.  issue #2 was like 30k, then it plummeted to the 20ks where, to it's credit, it held steady there for like a year and a half.

So give Walker that same roster, same 1st year artist, same CWII tie-in opportunity, and only difference is it's Walker at the helm with his own take and direction on the cast, instead of Ewing.

I'm not sure the book does any worse.  I wouldn't bet the farm that it wouldn't do worse lol b/c i really don't know what Walker's approach with such a book would be.

I think Ultimates held a niche for a long time of being the only true cosmic book (because people don't consider Thor cosmic for whatever reason and cosmic people hated Bendis Guardians) and Ewing about made those people orgasm with all the abstract high concept sci fi mumbo jumbo he was doing.

IDK if Walker could have scratched the same niche. Ewing also had a hardcore comic cult following for awhile as he was a nerd darling thanks to his continuity stuff that Walker never seem to have.

Judging by how badly Royals and USAvengers have sold, i don't think he has that following anymore. Ewings warts starting appearing the more he wrote (meandering storylines and focusing on the wrong sh*t).

So you would have had a trade off. You would have lost the Ewing followers and maybe the cosmic F4 loving nuts... but you would have likely gotten a much more straight forward superhero story that likely would have focused on the actual Ultimates lol.

so who knows... the strongest property Walker has been allowed to write is PM/IF with stupid art and it made it 15 issues at least.

TLDR: I don't know what sells anymore lol

Ewing definitely had a niche fan base or at least he was living off of that rookie of the year type hype for when he first got on the scene with Mighty Avengers (or he may have been around long before that, but that was simply the first time i knew of him.  I think).
I don't know how to attribute Ultimates' success.  On one hand T'Challa wasn't in it enough for BP fans to care like that (we let the Crew and WoW burn to the ground for pulling a similar neglect to BP), Carol fans are a figment of their own imagination, and nobody really cares about Adam, Monica  :-\ or America Chavez. 

On the other hand, are 22k people a month really holding steady for what essentially became a Galactus ongoing series guest starring made up space creatures 80% of us had never heard of? Marinated with crappy art? That's just hard to believe.  Silver Surfer solo was like 15k and i would guess (never read it) that it covered somewhat similar themes.

So maybe it was Ewing's fan base.. but like you said, they been left him. 

It actually makes me wonder if people actually liked the concept of the team (i.e. the actual cast) and were waiting for something relevant to happen... and just held study through the CWII crossover and resulting fall out/lead-in to season 2, and then just finally got fed up.

But if so, they showed a llllllllot of patience waiting that long. idk

I'd argue that Ewing & Walker Fanbase size are the same for the most part.. Ewing lean more towards Cosmic/heavy community heads & LGBT heads with Walker lean more towards the Noir/a dash of Syfy & POC/other minority (non sexual base) heads..

Ewing just has been giving WAY MORE opportunities, bigger projects & projects that have more of chance of to succeed..

I know alot folks like to hate on popularity level of some of the characters Ewing has used but imo they have more potential or garner more interest than most give them credit for one of the reasons why his book last longer..

Ewing gets Ultimates, New/US Avengers, CoC,  Loki & gets to be the one of the main writer of current 1 Avengers book/story.

Walker gets Cage & IF, Hawkeye & occupy Avengers, Cage again & etc..

Ewing's has been giving at least 2 top tier ( by Marvel standards) & 1 artist marvel try to make top teir a few times but fail so they gave up.. Walker hasn't been giving anywhere near close to that and level of artist from a retailer sense.. now in Ewing's defense two of those three main or does he work with wear a awful fit for the project and one of the reasons why the sale fails & etc..

Facts are team books are more likely to succeed then solos Ewing's has been giving 3 solo than either he or art team or & marvel management f***** up or sabotage in some.. Walker was giving occupy Avengers.. With Hawkeye as the lead, who can only sale when he pair with the female Hawkeye & was made the lead at time after he & Methany more less murder a very sympathetic looking Bruce Banner.. That book was doom from jump..

White supremacy fist is problematic and a non-starter for alot of POC  & We already been over several times why comic book Cage is very problematic and it's more or less a totally different character than the very successful TV  Cage.. Marvel gave there then Its once 2nd most popular black male characters now third in my opinion a problematic white sidekick best friend, a white wife that just now recently has been started to be drawn consistently less troll like & said hey black folks go eat it up lol.. And this was once a black power symbolic type character..

Walker did a sh*t job on Nighthawk imo but that book was doom after 1st or 2nd issue I think they cancelled it after the 2nd issue..