Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Show Bizness => Latest Flicks => Topic started by: Hypestyle on March 10, 2007, 09:15:55 am

Title: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on March 10, 2007, 09:15:55 am
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17524865/?GT1=9145
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BarbaraB on March 10, 2007, 09:45:29 am
Took them long enough.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on March 11, 2007, 10:06:17 am
Dang, I wanted to beat them to it, but it's all good.  Glad they finally figured it out.  They have been trying for a while (I know they had been working on AIDA for some time).
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on March 12, 2007, 12:30:05 pm
Dang, I wanted to beat them to it, but it's all good.  Glad they finally figured it out.  They have been trying for a while (I know they had been working on AIDA for some time).

hmm.. maybe we've got a BET black princess film on the way?  Neat! looking forward to whatever comes--   :)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 12, 2007, 12:55:32 pm
They did have an Arab princess with Jasmine in Aladdin.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 12, 2007, 02:14:07 pm
yeah... they brought her up in the msn story.

*looks at Reggie Reg*

Is this unannounced nonexistant black princess movie Disney-like or Xena-like?

 8)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on March 12, 2007, 02:24:33 pm
Dang, I wanted to beat them to it, but it's all good.  Glad they finally figured it out.  They have been trying for a while (I know they had been working on AIDA for some time).

Posted by: JLI Jesse  

They did have an Arab princess with Jasmine in Aladdin.


And an Asian heroine with Mulan, a Native American heroine with Pocahontas and a  Pacific American heroine in "Lilo and Stich".

They've been moving in this direction for a while now.

AIDA's right up Disney's alley, once they figure out how to give it a happy ending. ;) In the linked photo it looked the character design was hand drawn rather than CGI.

That's another reason to celebrate right there. The kind of hand skills that can create a Aladdin or a Beauty and the Beast was rapidly becoming obsolete due to Pixar's ascension in the industry.

Good news on all fronts.

You'll get 'em next time Reg.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 13, 2007, 09:59:36 am
(http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/lajb10103082023.widec.jpg)
Randy Newman on the piano.

NEW ORLEANS - The Walt Disney Co. has started production on an animated musical fairy tale called “The Frog Princess,” which will be set in New Orleans and feature the Walt Disney Studio’s first black princess.

The film, set for release in 2009, also is the first hand-drawn film Disney has committed to since pledging last month to return to the traditional animation that made it a worldwide brand.

“The Frog Princess,” a musical scored by composer Randy Newman, is “an American fairy tale” starring a girl named Maddy who lives in the French Quarter in New Orleans, said John Lasseter, chief creative director for Disney and Pixar Animation Studios.

(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070308/capt.lajb10203082026.disney_movie_new_orleans_lajb102.jpg)
Another character concept drawing.



I can't believe I may  finally  see black characters in a Disney animated feature film. Yes, I know 'Songs of the South' was considered a milestone but it wasn't exactly flattering. It is also a movie the Disney company would want to strike away from thier records, but what is done ...is done

I'm sure with the positive influence of Bruce W. Smith on the Disney payroll helped opening up new possibilities and dynamics in Disney feature films because I absolutely loved 'The Emporer's New Groove'. Mr. Smith was supervising animator for the Pancha character. If Eartha Kitt was Disney's first black (among a number of 'firsts') villainess in Groove, she was damned good!


Say, Mr. Hudlin... You've worked with Mr. Bruce W. Smith before on 'Bebe Kids', Is there any chance you'd work with him again?

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on March 13, 2007, 10:22:11 am
Honestly, this is the best kind of film Disney could've put out for me and my family.  My wife is VERY conscious of the lack of black faces on the Disney stuff that's all over the baby/infant/girls sections of store we go to.  She wouldn't let me buy the Cinderella/Snow White wall clings or the Cinderella crib set.  I understand where she's coming from because she wants our child to see faces that look like hers and this Frog Princess movie is right up our ally.  Come on Reg!!  Get BET in gear on a series or series of movies like this...we're a HUGELY untapped market waiting to spend these dollars on stuff like that!!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 13, 2007, 10:34:19 am
Honestly, this is the best kind of film Disney could've put out for me and my family.  My wife is VERY conscious of the lack of black faces on the Disney stuff that's all over the baby/infant/girls sections of store we go to.  She wouldn't let me buy the Cinderella/Snow White wall clings or the Cinderella crib set.  I understand where she's coming from because she wants our child to see faces that look like hers and this Frog Princess movie is right up our ally.  Come on Reg!!  Get BET in gear on a series or series of movies like this...we're a HUGELY untapped market waiting to spend these dollars on stuff like that!!

I just don't hope you deny your kids these movies.  They might not look like them, but Snow White and Cinderella are classic movies for all kids!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on March 13, 2007, 11:53:46 am
This is going to be a hot, sh*tty mess. And my children won't be exposed to lily-white women sitting on their asses wishing for their princes to come, either.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 13, 2007, 11:54:41 am
i knew jenn would be showing her support for this project.
;)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 13, 2007, 12:06:44 pm
This is going to be a hot, sh*tty mess. And my children won't be exposed to lily-white women sitting on their asses wishing for their princes to come, either.

jenn,

I know we do this dance all the time, but whats wrong with a story about Cinderella, someone who is basically an indentured servant and treated like crap, finally getting her chance to shine and finding love?  She's not sitting on her ass, she's trying to make the best of a crappy situation.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on March 13, 2007, 12:30:12 pm
Honestly, this is the best kind of film Disney could've put out for me and my family.  My wife is VERY conscious of the lack of black faces on the Disney stuff that's all over the baby/infant/girls sections of store we go to.  She wouldn't let me buy the Cinderella/Snow White wall clings or the Cinderella crib set.  I understand where she's coming from because she wants our child to see faces that look like hers and this Frog Princess movie is right up our ally.  Come on Reg!!  Get BET in gear on a series or series of movies like this...we're a HUGELY untapped market waiting to spend these dollars on stuff like that!!

I just don't hope you deny your kids these movies.  They might not look like them, but Snow White and Cinderella are classic movies for all kids!


I guess that's a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on March 15, 2007, 02:03:17 pm
---no disrespect to Randy Newman.. But considering the film is set in New Orleans.. I would have thought they'd bring in one or more of the Marsalis Brothers for the music..  also the Neville Brothers...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on March 16, 2007, 11:18:50 am
---no disrespect to Randy Newman.. But considering the film is set in New Orleans.. I would have thought they'd bring in one or more of the Marsalis Brothers for the music..  also the Neville Brothers...
Or any of the hundreds of amazing musicians from New Orleans.  Good point, Hype.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 16, 2007, 12:20:35 pm
Disney: "Oh. We're sorry for the misunderstanding.  Although the character may look black, only non-blacks will be working on this project.  As a matter of fact, we've already cast Anjolina Jolie as The Frog Princess.  Again, sorry for the confusion."

PS: Don't forget to go to you local grocery store and buy our "Little Nemo O's" cereal and 101 Dalmations dogfood.

:D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on March 16, 2007, 01:00:16 pm
Disney: "Oh. We're sorry for the misunderstanding.  Although the character may look black, only non-blacks will be working on this project.  As a matter of fact, we've already cast Anjolina Jolie as The Frog Princess.  Again, sorry for the confusion."

PS: Don't forget to go to you local grocery store and buy our "Little Nemo O's" cereal and 101 Dalmations dogfood.

:D

She's playing a multi-cultural role in the Daniel Pearl movie, so she'll have partial experience! LOL
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Toya on March 20, 2007, 11:35:37 pm
I agree with JLI Jesse, no matter the ethnicity of the "princess", Disney will always paint them and their culture with a broad stroke so that it is palatable and enjoyable for the young ones. And that's cool by me. Likewise I wasn't surpised that Maddy's "fairy godmother" was supposedly an ancient voodoo priestess. Heh, I guess that's why Maddy has her tin foil hat equipped? And I wonder if the FGM will have a Caribbean accent too... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tia_Dalma)?  Oh Disney you so silly,x I adore thee! I'm anxiously awaiting 'The Frog Princess'. :)


They have been trying for a while (I know they had been working on AIDA for some time).


AIDA too? I think that would be awesome.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on March 21, 2007, 08:55:46 am
I know we do this dance all the time

Yes, and I'm sick of it.

Lessee...a black chambermaid, voodoo practitioners, a plantation owner, a singing alligator, RANDY f*ckING NEWMAN, and a white prince? It's the must-miss of the season!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 21, 2007, 09:42:45 am
hahahahhahahaha...
i lubb u guhl.

that there was funny.... because i know u truly mean it with that tone you're using.
hahhahah
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 21, 2007, 11:17:14 am
I know we do this dance all the time

Yes, and I'm sick of it.

Lessee...a black chambermaid, voodoo practitioners, a plantation owner, a singing alligator, RANDY f*ckING NEWMAN, and a white prince? It's the must-miss of the season!

IAWJ. If anything, this is not a new story. We've all seen Hollywood produce live action flicks with the same theme of the <input minority culture here> girl in distress and the shining white price coming to her rescue even from her own people (kind of like how the missionaries sold it to the peoples of color a couple of centuries ago). If it is such a palatable move on Disney's part to do this, I wonder what would happen if for once the prince would be black and the girl in distress that needs saving from her environment and perhaps people was white.  ::)

Thing is, I kind of read this as a way to appease folks for the lack of real support given to the folks (mainly black) that were hit by Katrina in Louisiana. Get there minds off the fact they still can't get the insurance or FEMA money for their destroyed homes, lack of utilities support or the skyrocketing housing prices in the city. Now they can sit their little black baby girls (and boys) down to see how the black girl in distress from their hometown is saved by the white man, yet once again.

Oh yes, I find the idea of this movie extremely palatable.....
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Cheirel on March 21, 2007, 12:22:06 pm
They market this stuff to kids, i.e. my daughter who just thinks it is really cool to have a black princess finally. There is no way the young people will see all the B.S. that is associated with this illusion. :-\
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 21, 2007, 02:21:45 pm
They market this stuff to kids, i.e. my daughter who just thinks it is really cool to have a black princess finally. There is no way the young people will see all the B.S. that is associated with this illusion. :-\

This is probably true. But, it doesn't mean the other elements of the story aren't something children won't pick up on. It still can be an influence in the determinations they eventually make as a youngster and as they get older. I think it's good for Disney to have the black princess finally too, but there is still something amiss when the company consistently has a white protagonist that comes to rescue for the minority (whether it be one female or an entire population) in it's animated films.  In fact, children are saturated by this with Disney films and other cartoons. Children do pick up on little things like that, though I can't say I have personally witnessed them pointing out the negative things in the manner an adult would. I have seen it expressed in other forms, though. If the parents aren't exposing the child to other media that shows sometimes minorities come to the rescue of other minorities or others,,i.e. a black prince coming to the rescue of the black princess (Thanks, Reggie for BP and Storm  :) btw), is there any balance to what the child eventually internalizes? This concern really applies to those children where they are practically being raised by the television set with no adult supervision. But, it can apply to others depending on what the parent is exposing the child to. That's why I think you have to give props to those parents that are giving well rounded forms of entertainment and education regardless of the  media to their kids.

We were all kids once. Many of us remember the images we saw as children where white heroes were abundant and the black hero was almost non-existent. Now I'm not saying everybody is affected negatively, but some adults are affected to this day by those images. We had a thread on HEF awhile back that talked about that whole white doll/black doll acceptance thing that was proven to still exist in this day and age. This maybe an extreme example, but I think it still relates to the subject. It's probably a good assumption that most of those children fell into that ideology due to the images they are constantly exposed to just like it was the case decades ago. We shouldn't assume children don't pick up any of the underlying dynamics of the shows they watch. Kids are lot smarter than we give them credit for sometimes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on March 21, 2007, 04:02:59 pm
I know we do this dance all the time

Yes, and I'm sick of it.

Lessee...a black chambermaid, voodoo practitioners, a plantation owner, a singing alligator, RANDY f*ckING NEWMAN, and a white prince? It's the must-miss of the season!

They have their formula and they're sticking to it by god. Pocahontas made them enough money to justify this move. 

That's how Disney works.

Ethnic princess? We had one in Aladdin.

Randy Newman? Toy Story and Toy Story 2 (At this point, Disney don't leave home without him).

Ethnic Princess/White Prince? Pocahontas.

Its worked before, it'll work again. That's Disney's reasoning in a nutshell.

As for the belief that these images are destructive to women who will wait for a finacally secure man to save them from thier lives, you could just as easily blame Jane Austin for that one too while you're at it. That's a social more that has many branches, I'm afraid.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Toya on March 21, 2007, 04:51:46 pm
^ Do you mean Jane Austen? (http://www.jasa.net.au/jabiog.htm)


They market this stuff to kids, i.e. my daughter who just thinks it is really cool to have a black princess finally. There is no way the young people will see all the B.S. that is associated with this illusion. :-\


Precisely Cheirel. Even Cinderella was a sterotype/generalization of the Middle Ages, no? It's just the Disney way and until then let the kids enjoy themselves because sooner or later most people learn about the real world.  :(
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 21, 2007, 05:17:39 pm
^ Do you mean Jane Austen? ([url]http://www.jasa.net.au/jabiog.htm[/url])


They market this stuff to kids, i.e. my daughter who just thinks it is really cool to have a black princess finally. There is no way the young people will see all the B.S. that is associated with this illusion. :-\

Precisely Cheirel. Even Cinderella was a sterotype/generalization of the Middle Ages, no? It's just the Disney way and until then let the kids enjoy themselves because sooner or later most people learn about the real world.  :(


Jane Austen? ???  Oookay....

Cinderella was white thus I'm not sure how this example is the most appropriate for the discussion other than it was the precursor (next to Sleeping Beauty) to all the "damsel in distress" animated movies that Disney has produced. It is the usual formula the company uses and like any business it will continue to do that which makes it money. However, why not try to be a little more sensitive in the formula. Disney already started it by having Pocahontas, Milan and Aladdin. Why not take it step further. If kids don't see the subtleties of the picture and will just enjoy themselves regardless, then why doesn't Disney try something more radical? Other than a black prince or other colored boy coming to the rescue, why not have the black princess come to save the black prince in distress or the Hispanic queen save the Hispanic king, etc. Kids enjoying a film regardless of the racial makeup of the picture is not the real issue of this debate. It's the fact that Disney doesn't step out of that boundary, when it comes to a mixed race or just having all black cast for a romantic children's story. Of course,all of this may all be a moot discussion if their next animated film is a remake of Uncle Remus with humans...er...ah..no. Scratch that. Don't really need to see that either. :P

But hey, I understand what you all are saying. Sometimes parents just have to let their kids be kids. I can't argue too much over that. Afterall, what better way to get the little munchkins out your hair for awhile then to sit them in front of the tv and pop in "Lion King" to settle 'em down. Akuna Ma Tata, baby!!  ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Toya on March 21, 2007, 05:56:47 pm
You make another excellent point Evasive. This is not the first time I've heard someone criticize Disney for the format in which it creates its films. I'm not going to rush to judgement on 'The Frog Princess' as yet, but with voodoo, Jazz, and the like being a part of it, there's a high chance that it will follow the footsteps of the previous princess movies. Perhaps having a black princess is a step in progress (or an attempt to draw in more $$$)? Afterall, wasn't Fa Mulan riding horses and fighting men just as well, if not better, than many of the male characters and wasn't she trying to escape the contraints her society places on females? So how's about we give this film a chance?  :-\
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 22, 2007, 12:04:13 am
I'm not going to rush to judgement on 'The Frog Princess' as yet, but with voodoo, Jazz, and the like being a part of it, there's a high chance that it will follow the footsteps of the previous princess movies.
Exactly. Which I believe is the cause of some of the criticism.

Afterall, wasn't Fa Mulan riding horses and fighting men just as well, if not better, than many of the male characters and wasn't she trying to escape the contraints her society places on females? So how's about we give this film a chance?  :-\

Parents are going to take their kids to see this movie, no doubt. So it will get it's chance regardless of the dynamics of the film and regardless of it's critics or praisers. So yes, we just have to sit back and see how it fares.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on March 22, 2007, 12:50:59 am
If it is such a palatable move on Disney's part to do this, I wonder what would happen if for once the prince would be black and the girl in distress that needs saving from her environment and perhaps people was white.  ::)

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET.

For the people who feel like "they're just kids", remember the doll test that Kira Davis redid in 2004 or 2005. Watch 15 out of 21 black children choose the white doll over the black doll because it was "pretty" and "good". Then tell me sh*t like this doesn't shape the minds of young black children.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Cheirel on March 22, 2007, 10:36:10 am
Disney will make millions on this film. They sell it to the kids and hide enough adult jokes in there that parents don't slit their own throats. Fish, toys, penquins, polka dot princesses it doesn't really matter. They have a formula that really works. C-22 will spend this next few years watching animation :D.
I think that often it depends on how children are raised and their own self worth determines what race and skin color means to them. I remember my daughter crying because someone called her a name ~ I was worried that already or 2004 this was happening to my daughter so when I asked what they called her she said an "African American" I raised an eyebrow and that tomuch time in Jewish and I made left somewhere. So I calmly asked "what do you think you are?" She I'm an American. So I had a discusssion about you do know you are black right? She did but it troubled her more that people had waste time tryind to but identfiers on one another.

As far as dolls she has probably 14 ---6 of the American girl series but her all time favorite doll that has travelled all over the workd that needs a passport is a cheap black (I mean BLACK) plastic funny hair doll named Molly. So I think it's what the child has been exposed to...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 22, 2007, 10:40:39 am
If it is such a palatable move on Disney's part to do this, I wonder what would happen if for once the prince would be black and the girl in distress that needs saving from her environment and perhaps people was white.  ::)

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET.

For the people who feel like "they're just kids", remember the doll test that Kira Davis redid in 2004 or 2005. Watch 15 out of 21 black children choose the white doll over the black doll because it was "pretty" and "good". Then tell me sh*t like this doesn't shape the minds of young black children.

Exactly, Jenn.

However, it is true that this usually can be avoided if the parent is involved with exposing the child to other things that show positive forms showing black people (or other folks of color) in general. Black boys can see themselves as saviors (as can Hispanic, Asian or other). Black girls can see themselves as the heroine or being saved by the black boy or whatever. Kids of color are influenced by images at a young age. White kids aren't going to have that problem as the majority of things on TV (animation or not) is truly geared for them. Obviously, even this "Frog Princess" will continue to support the idea with the white person comes to the rescue for the little black girl. Saves her from a black male in fact. Oh, boy. ::)  Not to say a situation cannot happen like that, but our society exposes us with these images every other day. Always has. Price we pay for being here, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Pantherfan on March 22, 2007, 12:01:23 pm
When I first read that Disney was making a movie centered around a black princess I thought it was going to take place in Africa and we were going to see a whole new mythology unfold onscreen. Never in a million years did I thought this story would take place in New Orleans (not that there's anything wrong with that). But it would be nice for once if a movie studio like Disney set the story in an African Country and educated kids as well as adults about the continent and address misconceptions via storytelling and characters.

That's the type of Black Princess story I would like to see. Maybe another animation company could take this idea and run with it. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Toya on March 22, 2007, 01:24:17 pm
Bored out of my mind and waiting for class, I decided to look for more info on 'The Frog Princess'. I had the usual eye roll and smirk when I read that along with the Voodoo God-Mama, Maddie's mom was the house brat's nurse maid--how disgusting?--and that Maddie herself was a chambermaid, the last being not that alarming. After all, it's 1920s N'Orleans, one of the only five places that black folks lived, right? I wasn't even mad when I read all that, but it darn near blind me when I discovered that the Prince Harry was a white guy. That was the last straw, Dissssney, why you do that fo'?! Now I have to do some serious back pedalling because it would take too much ignorance for me to defend this. I just can't degrade myself anymore. I swear it's like one step forward and 10 leaps back.

I don't think kids would be traumatized about the Voodoo, the servant status of Maddie's family and what not nor do I think Maddie's character will be a simpleton as Disney has had numerous strong willed female characters. Still, I really didn't know that the Prince was white, this if not everything else speaks volumes. Evasive, my apologies but you were right all along.

 ::)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on March 22, 2007, 02:00:56 pm
Well, that pretty much dashed my hopes for this one.  I'll patiently wait for BET animation to do something...anything...please?  :'(
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 22, 2007, 02:02:04 pm
It's okay. Though it's kind of screwed up with the back story, you are right that at least we are finally getting a black princess. Small steps with the media though. Maybe we can get a really good respectable story for all kids to be proud of in the near future.

Damn, Toya. Now you got me feelin' all humble and stuff.  :-[

Hey, I still want to grow up to be like you. How long I gotta go to be an Honorary Wakandan?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Cheirel on March 22, 2007, 02:28:05 pm
It's their way of making it acceptable to cross all ($$$$$) barriers. I never met any people of color that were major animators at Disney. Reg???
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 22, 2007, 03:23:31 pm
It's their way of making it acceptable to cross all ($$$$$) barriers. I never met any people of color that were major animators at Disney. Reg???

I used to work for a Computer Systems (SGI) company that supported a number of the special effects houses and animation companies, including Disney Feature Animation. I was working as a tech support engineer at the time and I was frequently out in Burbank at Disney assisting the tech people with workstations for the animation artists. I never ran across an artist of color, not that I can say there were none, I just don't remember seeing any.

Another interesting thing I remember was that Disney was about to go into production of an animated movie featuring a couple of friends, all black women. I don't remember all the details, but I believe the story involved the women going out on a night on the town and having these weird adventures. I remember coming across some of the design stills of the characters one day while in some artist's office. As I said, I don't remember any artist of color being there and I definitely didn't hear about any black writers for the story. This movie was eventually canceled and production was halted, however. I remember thinking to myself back then how it would be interesting for Disney to come out with an animated picture featuring black people, but now in retrospect, I am concerned how the movie would have turned out.

Does anyone else remember anything about this?  I remember this movie got canceled a little while before Disney went into full production for that other animated movie about Atlantis (I think Michael J. Fox voiced in it). This was maybe about 5 or so years ago I think.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Toya on March 23, 2007, 06:00:51 pm
Well Evasive, I try not to argue just for the sake of arguing especially when I realize that I'm wrong. I'm still not clear on what my overall reaction to the final product will be. The only thing I'm certain about is that you'll reach Honorary Wakandan before this film is released. Right?  :)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on March 23, 2007, 07:41:14 pm
Well Evasive, I try not to argue just for the sake of arguing especially when I realize that I'm wrong. I'm still not clear on what my overall reaction to the final product will be. The only thing I'm certain about is that you'll reach Honorary Wakandan before this film is released. Right?  :)

I'm a trying.  ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on April 04, 2007, 06:22:18 pm
BAM!!!! (http://www.bet.com/JenniferDanielsBlogFroggiesVoodoo.htm) Y'all speak, I listen.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on April 05, 2007, 03:23:55 am
BAM!!!! ([url]http://www.bet.com/JenniferDanielsBlogFroggiesVoodoo.htm[/url]) Y'all speak, I listen.


On point, Jenn. Nice commentary.  :)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on April 05, 2007, 07:29:08 am
Nice piece, Jenn.  What's up with the comments from your readers though?  This is why I don't venture outside of HEF much.  The stupid is rampant.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on April 05, 2007, 10:44:00 am
Really nice post, Jenn!  You had me at "blue and silver and won three Super Bowls in four years. "  If I wasn't married....W0000000! LOL  Anyway, after telling my wife about this and forwarding her your commentary, she's pretty set against seeing this film.  I know Disney's in the business of making money, but I'm not that eager to give them mine for some half-assed attempt at catering to black people.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: zulu801 on April 05, 2007, 11:00:35 am
BAM!!!! ([url]http://www.bet.com/JenniferDanielsBlogFroggiesVoodoo.htm[/url]) Y'all speak, I listen.


*black thumb up in the air* great article Jenn!  Congrats.  Disney gets the "GAS FACE"!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Cheirel on April 05, 2007, 11:12:37 am
Very will done! Forwarded it to my 10 year old
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on April 05, 2007, 12:50:57 pm
Nice piece, Jenn.  What's up with the comments from your readers though?  This is why I don't venture outside of HEF much.  The stupid is rampant.

BET.com is chock full of (n)ignorance. I stopped reading the comments ages ago. If it was up to me, they'd turn the option off.

I have to admit the whole thing saddens me. I'm not a Disney head, but I can see how black mothers would be very excited about this. Then there's the factor of who will play Maddy. Like it or not, Disney's first black princess is going to make history. I kind of hate to speak against something that is so important, but this is just ridiculous. All I can hope is that some SERIOUS revisions are made before casting. This isn't something I'd feel comfortable rooting against, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: zulu801 on April 05, 2007, 01:02:23 pm
Nice piece, Jenn.  What's up with the comments from your readers though?  This is why I don't venture outside of HEF much.  The stupid is rampant.

BET.com is chock full of (n)ignorance. I stopped reading the comments ages ago. If it was up to me, they'd turn the option off.

I have to admit the whole thing saddens me. I'm not a Disney head, but I can see how black mothers would be very excited about this. Then there's the factor of who will play Maddy. Like it or not, Disney's first black princess is going to make history. I kind of hate to speak against something that is so important, but this is just ridiculous. All I can hope is that some SERIOUS revisions are made before casting. This isn't something I'd feel comfortable rooting against, if that makes sense.

revisions will be made IF some brings the storyline to light and say, hey WTF is this?  Of all stories in makebelieve land, you gotta give Disney first Blac....mmm excuse me African American female character lead protrayed as a frog?  Maybe I'm taking a bit over the top but as a father of two daughters (although they are teenagers 16 and 14 yrs old) but for them to explain to my granddaughters in the future that Disney featured the first ever lead Black character as a frog shows a incorrect image of Black characters in lead roles even in makebelieve land.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on April 05, 2007, 01:53:58 pm
Nice piece, Jenn.  What's up with the comments from your readers though?  This is why I don't venture outside of HEF much.  The stupid is rampant.

Actually, it seems that this joker named sfirx is the main opposer of Jenn's article. Funny thing is I think this person is a) black but not necessarily American (the fact he keeps saying "u.s nego"  when blasting others in the discussion, b) can't speak english all that well judging from his writing and c) attempt to sound like he has some knowledge but turns out sounding ignorant based on his comments. Then again he might just be a typical all-American, ignorant negro. At least he his in the minority in the discussion so it seems like some black folks are comprehending what Jenn said in that particular discussion on the BET board.

But I did check out the other discussions on Jenn's blog and I have to agree there are some straight chaddy a#$ ignoramuses on BET chat board. It looks like they respond some times and don't even read what you posted. Case in point, all the idiots who came at Jenn over that Paul Mooney piece. I agreed  with the article and you all know how I feel about the "n" word. Jeez, if folks got a beef with a writer at least read what they say before you start ranting. Seems like the folks just don't like our beloved Jenn period, regardless of what she writes.

It's okay though as we all know she's gonna keep stickin' them whenever and wherever she can.  ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on April 05, 2007, 04:03:11 pm
It's okay though as we all know she's gonna keep stickin' them whenever and wherever she can.  ;D

I don't need to be liked, or even understood. All I need is my check, and those n*ggers (yes, n*ggers) can think whatever they want to about me. I had a drill sergeant who told me once, "Perception is a motherf*cker", and that's something that has stuck with me all my life. You can write whatever, but no matter how well it's written or researched, you can't control how it's perceived. Once I finally figured that out, my job became easier.

As for sfirx (who is very much American), he does that every single time I write something. He's literally been at it since day one. I think he hopes that one of the editors will take note of him and offer him a job, but his writing is so awful that all I can do is thank him for running up my hits. Hell, he's probably single-handedly responsible for me getting a one-year extension on my contract at the beginning of the new year, as opposed to a six-month extention.You think he's bad there, check out the Bill Cosby blog (a REAL clusterf*ck) and the R. Kelly blog, the closest I ever came to trying to invoke the one-drop rule in reverse. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on April 06, 2007, 02:54:30 pm
Here's Larry Wilmore from The Daily Show on The Frog Princess: 
http://www.devilducky.com/media/60101/
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on April 09, 2007, 10:32:19 pm
ANGRY, the 8th dwarf! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on May 12, 2007, 05:43:27 am
I found this on http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2007-05-11/ (http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2007-05-11/)...thought some of you might find it interesting.  Looks like negative word of mouth caused some significant changes...now if we could make the Prince a black man, it would be all good! ;D


Protests Come Early to Disney's 'Princess'

Almost two years before its hoped-for release of its first hand-drawn animated film produced under the supervision of Pixar's John Lasseter, Disney has already drawn fire for alleged racial and ethnic insensitivities that were detected in its original announcement of the film, according to Disney watcher Jim Hill. Since the original title, The Frog Princess, might be regarded as a slur on the French, the title has been changed to The Princess and the Frog. The main character, named Maddy -- who was to become Disney's first black princess -- has had her name changed to Tiana, since Maddy reportedly sounded too much like Mammy. She will no longer be seen as a chambermaid working for a rich, white spoiled Southern débutante. In a statement, Disney, which said that it ordinarily does not comment on its animated films in the early stages of production, observed: "The story takes place in the charming elegance and grandeur of New Orleans' fabled French Quarter during the Jazz Age. ... Princess Tiana will be a heroine in the great tradition of Disney's rich animated fairy tale legacy, and all other characters and aspects of the story will be treated with the greatest respect and sensitivity."
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on May 12, 2007, 06:40:08 pm
Awww, some white guy doesn't like what I had to say about Frog Princess, kri. (http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/05/11/why-for-is-disney-already-doing-damage-control-on-the-princess-and-the-frog.aspx)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on May 12, 2007, 09:22:01 pm
Awww, some white guy doesn't like what I had to say about Frog Princess, kri. ([url]http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/05/11/why-for-is-disney-already-doing-damage-control-on-the-princess-and-the-frog.aspx[/url])


Hah!  A blog on BET.COM helped stop a crime!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on May 12, 2007, 09:34:52 pm
Dear Lord, what a firestorm.




Hey, I think I like that RLuke's idea of the story of Randy.  Yeah... :D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on May 14, 2007, 10:12:56 am
Awww, some white guy doesn't like what I had to say about Frog Princess, kri. ([url]http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/05/11/why-for-is-disney-already-doing-damage-control-on-the-princess-and-the-frog.aspx[/url])


So...does this mean you're politically correct, Jenn?    ;D ;D ;D
<<uncontrollable giggling...>>
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on May 14, 2007, 10:55:07 am
Awww, some white guy doesn't like what I had to say about Frog Princess, kri. ([url]http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2007/05/11/why-for-is-disney-already-doing-damage-control-on-the-princess-and-the-frog.aspx[/url])


So...does this mean you're politically correct, Jenn?    ;D ;D ;D
<<uncontrollable giggling...>>


The blog guy is a joke, but what disturbs me are the number of alleged negroes on there agreeing with his position.  I just don't get it sometimes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: GrimSkill on May 19, 2007, 04:34:11 pm
One step forward........500 Steps back,When will it end!! Doh!? >.<
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on July 20, 2008, 07:20:47 pm
Here's the latest news report on IMDB.com:

Far from receiving congratulations from the African-American community for finally producing an animated feature with a black princess, Disney is finding itself embroiled in a new controversy every bit as bitter as the one that followed the release of its 1947 film Song of the South. According to published reports, the controversy has already forced the studio to change the title of the film and the name of the lead character. The film, originally titled The Frog Princess, is now being called The Princess and the Frog and the lead character is now called Tiana instead of Maddy. But the controversy has not ended. Charlotte Observer columnist William Blackburn comments: "This princess' story is set in New Orleans, the setting of one of the most devastating tragedies to beset a black community. And then they throw in the voodoo theme [the fairy-godmother character is a voodoo priestess] and an alligator sidekick. When you put New Orleans, alligators and voodoo together, there's no beauty there." The London Independent reports that Disney has now made the prince in the story a man of Middle Eastern heritage and "revised" the race of the villain.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on July 20, 2008, 11:46:07 pm
Here's the latest news report on IMDB.com:

Far from receiving congratulations from the African-American community for finally producing an animated feature with a black princess, Disney is finding itself embroiled in a new controversy every bit as bitter as the one that followed the release of its 1947 film Song of the South. According to published reports, the controversy has already forced the studio to change the title of the film and the name of the lead character. The film, originally titled The Frog Princess, is now being called The Princess and the Frog and the lead character is now called Tiana instead of Maddy. But the controversy has not ended. Charlotte Observer columnist William Blackburn comments: "This princess' story is set in New Orleans, the setting of one of the most devastating tragedies to beset a black community. And then they throw in the voodoo theme [the fairy-godmother character is a voodoo priestess] and an alligator sidekick. When you put New Orleans, alligators and voodoo together, there's no beauty there." The London Independent reports that Disney has now made the prince in the story a man of Middle Eastern heritage and "revised" the race of the villain.

I still don't get why there can't be a black prince who comes to save the black princess. You mean to tell me that there can be every other ethnicity of male to rescue all the types of women in the world in Disney movies except for the black male?  ??? White male saves white female, Asian ,male defends Asian female and "other" saves black female.

Sorry, I'm still not cool with Disney on this proposed project.....
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: PFunk on July 21, 2008, 12:33:48 am
Disney should have expected this.  After all their track record with blacks in their animated films isn't that great.  Still I'm shocked (but not surprised) at all of the negative comments from those complaning about the comments.  Still it means we wont be seeing a "song of the south".
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Blanks on July 24, 2008, 07:21:39 pm
well f*ck. We can get a black princess, but not a black prince to accommodate her? Jimmy-but-fuc-christmas!

That's alright, we know how much Dreamworks and Disney rip-off each other, maybe Dreamworks can beat em to the punch... but then again... there were no black people in Shrek either....

You know what, I'm gonna log off now. I'm to pissed to be on the internet now...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on July 24, 2008, 08:57:03 pm
Here's the latest news report on IMDB.com:

Far from receiving congratulations from the African-American community for finally producing an animated feature with a black princess, Disney is finding itself embroiled in a new controversy every bit as bitter as the one that followed the release of its 1947 film Song of the South. According to published reports, the controversy has already forced the studio to change the title of the film and the name of the lead character. The film, originally titled The Frog Princess, is now being called The Princess and the Frog and the lead character is now called Tiana instead of Maddy. But the controversy has not ended. Charlotte Observer columnist William Blackburn comments: "This princess' story is set in New Orleans, the setting of one of the most devastating tragedies to beset a black community. And then they throw in the voodoo theme [the fairy-godmother character is a voodoo priestess] and an alligator sidekick. When you put New Orleans, alligators and voodoo together, there's no beauty there." The London Independent reports that Disney has now made the prince in the story a man of Middle Eastern heritage and "revised" the race of the villain.

What don't you f***ing make him BLACK, Disney? Damn! Why does the prince have to be something OTHER than black? That's bullcheezy. Dang, I don't normally get mad at sh*t I read online, but its like Disney's saying "Whoa, now, let's not get carried away here, we're already doing YOU a favor by making HER black. Darkie."

That's what kills me about most of the complaints I'm reading, that we should be grateful that we're getting a black princess even though her trappings, for the most part, are bullsh*t. Its like a car dealer giving you a car with a 90% finance charge and 5 mpg, and then saying, "Dang, you should be happy you're getting a car AT ALL, ingrate!" Or spitting in my food and saying I shouldn't complain cause I couldn't be getting food at all. F you, Disney.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on July 25, 2008, 09:34:13 am
but then again... there were no black people in Shrek either....

Got a donkey out of it though...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on July 25, 2008, 09:41:15 am
so, when's the movie supposed to finally come out, anyway?  I wonder if Disney is soliciting for black girls to play the role at their theme parks...  hmm.. wearing a ball gown in hot orlando/L.A. weather, waving and smiling all the time.. heh-heh..  ::)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on July 25, 2008, 09:53:22 am
but then again... there were no black people in Shrek either....

Got a donkey out of it though...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Blanks on July 25, 2008, 06:09:57 pm
heh. true.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on July 09, 2009, 08:29:49 am
I know the general consensus of Disney's latest and traditionally hand-drawn, animated feature  “The Princess and the Frog,” is recieving a lot of 'negative criticism' here but personally I'm excited about the project and I thought it'd be fun to post the latest screenshot from the dailies coming from the studio.
(http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2009/06/13/00/834-B82119189Z.1_20090613000608_000+GTAIBEJU.3.embedded.prod_affiliate.138.jpg)
So far, so good...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on July 09, 2009, 09:03:01 am
I keep forgetting this hasn't come out yet!  This was first announced, what, 5 years ago?  It finally comes out Christmas or Thanksgiving?

There should already be job postings for black girls to play Tianna at the theme parks..

("candidates must be able to smile and be pleasant at all times, wearing a full ball gown in hot summer weather..")

 ;)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on August 18, 2009, 11:56:47 am
Well...while I'm still irritated the prince isn't black...I gotta admit after seeing the trailer for it at the screening for G-Force, I'm now excited about it. Looks like Disney's trying to do a throwback to Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty here.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on August 18, 2009, 01:40:24 pm
i'm seeing some merchandise in stores.. a Calendar..
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on August 18, 2009, 03:04:26 pm
Well...while I'm still irritated the prince isn't black...I gotta admit after seeing the trailer for it at the screening for G-Force, I'm now excited about it. Looks like Disney's trying to do a throwback to Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty here.



You must be writing about this trailer of “The Princess and the Frog” ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elqIMpYgL2c&feature=related
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on August 18, 2009, 04:16:57 pm
(http://i30.tinypic.com/2iqjx1g.jpg)

Yeaaaaah...think I'm going to pass on this one.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Blanks on August 18, 2009, 06:23:17 pm
is... is that supposed to be her fairy god-mother or something?

i think i just barfed a little in my mouth....

The next White Princess better be screwing Shaq.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on August 18, 2009, 06:42:14 pm
That would be Mama Odie, voodoo mama extraordinaire.
http://www.movieline.com/2009/06/concerns-over-princess-and-the-frog-stereotyping-allayed-by-introduction-of-mama-odie-the-swamp-witc.php
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on August 19, 2009, 07:11:09 am
Do you also have an issue with Wanda Sykes doing voice-over for the character Innoko from Brother Bear 2?(http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/6.gif)?

She's somewhat similar to Madam Odie where Innoko uses ritual magic to gain info so that  Nita can begin her quest... Do you think that character is a stereo-type?
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/Battle-D/brotherbear2-02.jpg)
~~~"Don't know how you do the voodoo that you do
So well it's a spell, hell, makes me wanna shoop shoop shoop!!!"~~
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on August 19, 2009, 09:41:21 am
Never saw it. And no, I don't like Madea, Big Momma's House or Norbitt, and I'm sure Jada Pinkett as a sassy hippo in Madagascar also sucked. Now try again.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on August 19, 2009, 02:12:18 pm
Never saw it.


When you get a chance, check it out.


Quote
...And no, I don't like Madea, Big Momma's House or Norbitt, and I'm sure Jada Pinkett as a sassy hippo in Madagascar also sucked.


What in the world does any of that have to do with “The Princess and the Frog” ?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on October 19, 2009, 06:25:37 pm
real-life wedding gowns to be based on designs seen in the film--

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS30194+18-Oct-2009+BW20091018
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on October 27, 2009, 08:23:13 am
Rumor has it that Bruce W. Smith is Supervising Animator for the villain in this picture.  

and for all you collectors out there...
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/Battle-D/princessfrogdolls-260x200.jpg)
It's A Small World After All
This year at the American International Toy Fair in New York City The Walt Disney Company revealed a few of the beautiful toys set to accompany its next animated feature The Princess And The Frog. Disney Consumer Products (DCP) in collaboration with Mattel and CDI, a division of JAKKS Pacific.

According to this online article (http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/02/27/princess-and-the-frog-toys-revealed/):
http://thedisneyblog.com/2009/02/27/princess-and-the-frog-toys-revealed/
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on October 27, 2009, 02:39:33 pm
I can't turn around without bumping into a promo for this flick.

I know the Carol's Daughter beauty chain doing something with the movie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on October 29, 2009, 01:09:54 pm
introducing live-action Tiana..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=tiana+princess+disneyworld&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on October 31, 2009, 08:56:28 am
<< Vic Vega:I can't turn around without bumping into a promo for this flick.>>

Strange, outside of this board, I have seen and heard nothing about this movie.  (True, I don't visit toy stores all that much.)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on October 31, 2009, 12:42:53 pm
Quote
Though the film does not arrive in theaters until Dec. 11, Tiana Halloween costumes are already a hot property. And in an unusual twist, the character is resonating more with adults than with little girls.


Um...d'uh (http://www.ajc.com/lifestyle/princess-tiana-already-sold-177616.html)? Black women will throw money at ANYTHING that makes us feel even the least bit pretty. I can't wait to see the special screening on the White House lawn with tears coming out of Michelle's eyes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on November 01, 2009, 02:12:28 pm
USA Weekend has a feature/cover story--
http://www.usaweekend.com/09_issues/091101/091101anika-rose.html
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on November 01, 2009, 08:25:05 pm
Quote
Though the film does not arrive in theaters until Dec. 11, Tiana Halloween costumes are already a hot property. And in an unusual twist, the character is resonating more with adults than with little girls.


Um...d'uh ([url]http://www.ajc.com/lifestyle/princess-tiana-already-sold-177616.html[/url])? Black women will throw money at ANYTHING that makes us feel even the least bit pretty. I can't wait to see the special screening on the White House lawn with tears coming out of Michelle's eyes.


Too bad there is no heroic costume from the movie for little black boys to emulate as well.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on November 02, 2009, 04:43:42 pm
I suspect that there should be a special spotlight for this year's Disney Thanksgiving and Christmas Parade broadcasts on ABC..
also, ABC-news shows like Good Morning America will likely have some promotional appearances..
The Disney Channel should be plugging away about this regularly by now..
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on November 03, 2009, 09:15:55 am
Check out some of these character designs for Tianna:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/twisted_lemons/Frog%20Princess%20Concept%20Art/maddy2b2cdb4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/twisted_lemons/Frog%20Princess%20Concept%20Art/maddy2b14vu7.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/twisted_lemons/Frog%20Princess%20Concept%20Art/tiana2bdesign1ku8.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/twisted_lemons/Frog%20Princess%20Concept%20Art/tiana2bdesign2mn8.jpg)
Good Hair...?  ...or not?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on November 03, 2009, 06:13:19 pm
Too bad there is no heroic costume from the movie for little black boys to emulate as well.

What do you need that for!? Little black boys have basketball players and rappers - D'UUUUUH!!!!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on November 05, 2009, 07:57:51 am
Mr. Smith is killin' it!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRX_LnZ586Q&feature=fvsr)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRX_LnZ586Q&feature=fvsr
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: D- Ruck on November 05, 2009, 09:57:21 pm
Too bad there is no heroic costume from the movie for little black boys to emulate as well.

What do you need that for!? Little black boys have basketball players and rappers - D'UUUUUH!!!!

Give the lil man a throwback and he set
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on November 07, 2009, 11:13:09 am
Well, out of curiosity (dying-to-know-itis I guess), I checked out all the children's books to see how this movie turns out. It'll be cute, since Naveen and Tiana spend a huge chunk of the movie as frogs, but it seems awfully telling that the only major black MALE in the movie is also the movie's villain. Tiana's pops shows up at the beginning and end (according to the books, but they're not gonna spoil every little itty bitty thing obviously), but still that's not enough to counterbalance this Doctor Facilier.

I think the ending (which all the books share) is clever. Real sweet. Not sure if I'll check it out now, though, but I'll decide as the date draws nearer.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on November 24, 2009, 05:20:38 pm
I find it interesting how black women throw so much money at Disney so their little girls could prance around as Tiana, but there was not a rush from the same black women for their daughters to be Lt. Uhura (Star Trek) for Christmas. Lessee, a multilingual ship's lieutenant...or some fake princess in an ugly dress. Oh, and...ISN'T STORM BLACK? Like, mama-born-in-Kenya black?

And this (http://www.newsweek.com/id/223508) is about as offensive as it gets:

Quote
Since the 1960s, marriages between black men and white women have been steadily increasing14 percent of all black men are now married outside the race. Yet only 4 percent of black women do the same. Why? Black women, for better or worse, have always seemed to maintain a loyalty to the ideal of the black family unit. That's understandable, even noble, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when so many black men don't feel the same way. Combined with the disturbing number of black men in prison, that means 47 percent of all African-American women today never marry. With those numbers, I say it's time for many black women to start thinking, and acting, like Tiana.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on November 24, 2009, 06:42:03 pm
I find it interesting how black women throw so much money at Disney so their little girls could prance around as Tiana, but there was not a rush from the same black women for their daughters to be Lt. Uhura (Star Trek) for Christmas. Lessee, a multilingual ship's lieutenant...or some fake princess in an ugly dress. Oh, and...ISN'T STORM BLACK? Like, mama-born-in-Kenya black?


Trek is still seen as the exclusive province of pasty face nerds with poor social skills and worse hygene.  Its not the kind of thing that you pass on to your daughter if your most sisters. With Storm you're guess is as good as mine. I've never seen anybody dress up as her for holloween who was younger than 20. Marvel's ace marketers strike again


And this ([url]http://www.newsweek.com/id/223508[/url]) is about as offensive as it gets:

Quote
Since the 1960s, marriages between black men and white women have been steadily increasing14 percent of all black men are now married outside the race. Yet only 4 percent of black women do the same. Why? Black women, for better or worse, have always seemed to maintain a loyalty to the ideal of the black family unit. That's understandable, even noble, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when so many black men don't feel the same way. Combined with the disturbing number of black men in prison, that means 47 percent of all African-American women today never marry. With those numbers, I say it's time for many black women to start thinking, and acting, like Tiana.



Good god.

I don't even know where to start.

I thought making the Prince middle eastern was an inspired bit of spiteful assholery("You got a problem with this? Who's the racist NOW n!ggers? Who?") but its still assholery from the company that brought us Song Of The South.

I didn't think anybody'd be dim enough to try to use it to further a social agenda.

Must be a slow news week.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on November 24, 2009, 07:38:49 pm
Back when I was w/BET, the prince was white and named Harry. So don't give me a non-white, non-black prince named Naveen and then pat your ass. If they could change him from white to brown, they could've changed him from white to black. And do people act like black women are turning away white men in droves or something?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on November 24, 2009, 08:01:02 pm
Back when I was w/BET, the prince was white and named Harry. So don't give me a non-white, non-black prince named Naveen and then pat your ass. If they could change him from white to brown, they could've changed him from white to black.

Yes they could have.

This is them thumbing their noses at the protestors. If Disney wants to do an I/R Princess and Prince they'll do an I/R Princess and Prince and that's that.

That's what is tripping me out.  They must figure that by making Naveen non-white they can get to call out any remaining complainers as bigots.

Never mind that the only non evil Black Male in this thing is probably Tiana's dad. Who, if Disney follows their pattern, will be a kindly, elderly white haired fellow. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on November 25, 2009, 05:20:33 am
That's weird, I thought he was still white and Disney changed their minds. Sooo...he's middle-eastern with strawberry blonde hair?  ??? He has a slight tan, so I'm guessing they decided halfway through to do the race change and just made his skin slightly darker so they wouldn't have to redraw everything? I'm just guessing here.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on November 25, 2009, 07:34:01 am
Sooo...he's middle-eastern with strawberry blonde hair?

Oh, no - he's whiter than white. "Not white" is what people say when they want to get around mentioning that you are, in fact, white. "People are complaining that the prince is white. Well, for starters, he's not white." Okay, what is he? Yeah, exactly. We just started saying Middle Eastern because "not white" was getting old.

Never mind that the only non evil Black Male in this thing is probably Tiana's dad. Who, if Disney follows their pattern, will be a kindly, elderly white haired fellow. 

No, if Disney follows their pattern, he'll be dead - and therefore, out of the way.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 07, 2009, 05:37:00 pm
New stupid!

([url]http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article6936884.ece[/url])
Quote
With the increasing rise of successful black American women think Tina Turner strutting her stuff at 70, Whitney Houstons recent comeback, the Oprah phenomenon and now Michelle Obama all being seen as princesses in their different ways the aspirations of black American women to transform themselves have never been higher. It is these aspirations and dreams that Disney is seeking to tap into by telling the story of Princess Tiana.


I...see.

Now! As I do when I'm wrong (which is rarely), let me be the first to fall on my sword and say that Princess looks like it will be a tremendous success. Which I predicted that this film would bomb miserably, I'd completely underestimated the pathetically low self esteem of black women and our tendency to throw MASS amounts of money to anything that makes us feel even remotely pretty. (I can almost hear the joyful sobbing now in theaters all over America.) I WOULD exploit such behavior for my personal gain, but this kind of thing only works when you're white. It's the same kind of thing that makes black people loudly decry BET while watching Flavor of Love on VH1. Kind of an 'ice is colder' kind of thing. Black folks make products for black people - no biggie. Disney makes products for black people = instaprofit!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 07, 2009, 06:01:30 pm
There seems to be a school tie-in as well from what I can see.

Classes are being sent to the movie in the same vein of "inspiration" that Jenn was referencing.

The Mouse is getting Chocolate money now! 8)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: MKG on December 07, 2009, 07:38:54 pm
Lets prey it flops. Flops bad!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on December 07, 2009, 07:42:18 pm
If New Moon and Transformers 2 have proven anything, it's that there's still a sucker born every minute.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 07, 2009, 09:55:00 pm
New stupid!

([url]http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article6936884.ece[/url])
Quote
With the increasing rise of successful black American women think Tina Turner strutting her stuff at 70, Whitney Houstons recent comeback, the Oprah phenomenon and now Michelle Obama all being seen as princesses in their different ways the aspirations of black American women to transform themselves have never been higher. It is these aspirations and dreams that Disney is seeking to tap into by telling the story of Princess Tiana.


I...see.

Now! As I do when I'm wrong (which is rarely), let me be the first to fall on my sword and say that Princess looks like it will be a tremendous success. Which I predicted that this film would bomb miserably, I'd completely underestimated the pathetically low self esteem of black women and our tendency to throw MASS amounts of money to anything that makes us feel even remotely pretty. (I can almost hear the joyful sobbing now in theaters all over America.) I WOULD exploit such behavior for my personal gain, but this kind of thing only works when you're white. It's the same kind of thing that makes black people loudly decry BET while watching Flavor of Love on VH1. Kind of an 'ice is colder' kind of thing. Black folks make products for black people - no biggie. Disney makes products for black people = instaprofit!


Well, I haven't seen it yet, but my friends who went in angry were disarmed by the powerfully emotional storytelling that Disney does very well.  Don't discount this.  It's like when PC people don't understand why youn people listen to gangsta rap - people like funky music.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 07, 2009, 10:00:02 pm
I find it interesting how black women throw so much money at Disney so their little girls could prance around as Tiana, but there was not a rush from the same black women for their daughters to be Lt. Uhura (Star Trek) for Christmas. Lessee, a multilingual ship's lieutenant...or some fake princess in an ugly dress. Oh, and...ISN'T STORM BLACK? Like, mama-born-in-Kenya black?

And this ([url]http://www.newsweek.com/id/223508[/url]) is about as offensive as it gets:

Quote
Since the 1960s, marriages between black men and white women have been steadily increasing14 percent of all black men are now married outside the race. Yet only 4 percent of black women do the same. Why? Black women, for better or worse, have always seemed to maintain a loyalty to the ideal of the black family unit. That's understandable, even noble, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when so many black men don't feel the same way. Combined with the disturbing number of black men in prison, that means 47 percent of all African-American women today never marry. With those numbers, I say it's time for many black women to start thinking, and acting, like Tiana.



If there was a Storm outfit available for kids, I would have bought it.  Is there an Uhura outfit available for kids?  Doesn't matter, my daughter is too young for it.  But Disney princesses?  She's right in the firing line.   You have to meet the people where they are with the product they want. 

As for that Newsweek article, it's sad.  Whenever read a post or plea from black women "selling" interracial dating, I just want to give 'em a hug. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 07, 2009, 10:01:21 pm
This was done by the same directoral team who were behind Little Mermaid, Aladdin and  the songwriter for Toy Story.

I called this like two years ago.

There was NO WAY this wasn't going to make money.

It's not like Native Americans were all that thrilled over Pocahontas either IRRC.

Fans of deracinated family entertainment, American Animation fantics and Disney musical fanbois/gurls were always going to outnumber the detractors anyway. Even if every Black Woman in America had sat on thier hands.

I remember back in the day when folks were talking about Black Cauldron as if it were the Second Coming and that was before Disney had it can't miss formula down. So yes, the fiending was strong with this one.

And they knew it going in. The only real question for Disney was could their 2-D stuff still equal or outperform their Non-Pixar Computer Graphics stuff moneywise.

As far as Pixar goes... the Academy might as will give them an Award upon release of each new movie and be done with it.



Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 07, 2009, 10:53:40 pm
Well, I haven't seen it yet, but my friends who went in angry were disarmed by the powerfully emotional storytelling that Disney does very well.  Don't discount this.  It's like when PC people don't understand why youn people listen to gangsta rap - people like funky music.


I understand that. But why do we get so hyped up just because white people throw us a little light? If BET had done this exact same film, they'd piss on it from now until Doomsday.

Quote
If there was a Storm outfit available for kids, I would have bought it.


(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufumh3.jpg)

Quote
Is there an Uhura outfit available for kids?


(http://i48.tinypic.com/xnzs41.jpg)

Quote
Doesn't matter, my daughter is too young for it.  But Disney princesses?  She's right in the firing line.


I'll never forgive you. Just like I'll never forgive you for Shuri or for Halle Berry.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 07, 2009, 11:33:30 pm
Well, I haven't seen it yet, but my friends who went in angry were disarmed by the powerfully emotional storytelling that Disney does very well.  Don't discount this.  It's like when PC people don't understand why youn people listen to gangsta rap - people like funky music.


I understand that. But why do we get so hyped up just because white people throw us a little light? If BET had done this exact same film, they'd piss on it from now until Doomsday.

Quote
If there was a Storm outfit available for kids, I would have bought it.


([url]http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufumh3.jpg[/url])

Quote
Is there an Uhura outfit available for kids?


([url]http://i48.tinypic.com/xnzs41.jpg[/url])

Quote
Doesn't matter, my daughter is too young for it.  But Disney princesses?  She's right in the firing line.


I'll never forgive you. Just like I'll never forgive you for Shuri or for Halle Berry.


BET is a bad example, because the brand is the opposite of "quality family entertainment".  But if Tyler Perry had produced PRINCESS AND THE FROG,I think it would still be hit.

Wow, grooving on the Storm outfit.  I got a year to sell her on it.....
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 08, 2009, 12:15:53 am
How much pain will Jenn be in during the first week's box office?

Lets take a poll!

The Black Princess movie will make 100 million given the early release during the week.

P.S. Who wrote that Newsweek garbage? That crazed self-hater that was against HOT GHETTO MESS! 8)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Freakzeek on December 08, 2009, 01:04:50 am
I'm pissed at some of the detractors, I live in southern cali, 40 mins from Disney land, I've been to disneyworld twice and Disneyland to mant damn times, each and everytime my mother and three sister's complain about not having a black princess, for ten years i had to watch my little sister dress up like cinderalla or snow white and that's just sad. and you know what happens once we finally get one? Black People Complain about it! Who Cares? It's disney what are you really expecting?! As A fan of American Animation, this movie is like my wet dream, THE BIG EASY,VOODOO, JAZZ MUSICALS, What's not to like?! Who cares if the prince isn't black, little black boys can look up to T'challa and Black Panther! So she turns into a frog? again who cares, you have to realize that disney has been ripping off European fairy tales for years and the got all the good ones already, sure they could of made it in africa, but then they probably would have gotten complaints for that too. P.s. Keith David and the Panty-dropping voice is god (Goliath for the win!_
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 08, 2009, 05:15:22 am
The Prince has always been the blandest character in the Disney formula anyway.

Aladdin is the sole exception. The Beast falls more into the category of Monster or Magical Protector.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on December 08, 2009, 12:07:06 pm
I'm pissed at some of the detractors, I live in southern cali, 40 mins from Disney land, I've been to disneyworld twice and Disneyland to mant damn times, each and everytime my mother and three sister's complain about not having a black princess, for ten years i had to watch my little sister dress up like cinderalla or snow white and that's just sad. and you know what happens once we finally get one? Black People Complain about it! Who Cares? It's disney what are you really expecting?!

As another American animation fan, I think the point is that some black people are complaining because the princess is Black, but once again the hero of the day is the white(or off color)prince. Once again, the black male just can't be the hero in an animated film. Yes, it's Disney and considering the people who greenlighted the story without probably considering (or caring) the social/cultural backlash from blacks, it is just another irritating and somewhat insulting gesture. In fact it's not a gesture at all really, as you and others have stated. It's just Disney cashing in on another racial demographic other than the typical European one.

I figured this is just Disney thumbing their noses at blacks because we complained for so long that we didn't have a fairytale of our own even though Disney put out Mulan (Asian), Aladin (Middle Eastern), Pocahantas (though this was messed up too because the Native American male couldn't be the "prince" either). Lion King doesn't count. So, Disney makes this fairy tale up and initially thinks there won't be much of a stink because it's a black princess. There IS some complaining so they get lazy and just change the color of the character so he is "off white" but STILL not black. Thus, they still don't give the detractors what they want and can thumb their noses (regardless if it is racially insensitive or not) and still get many other blacks to run to the theaters and throw their money at them. Sucks, but that is the reality.

As A fan of American Animation, this movie is like my wet dream, THE BIG EASY,VOODOO, JAZZ MUSICALS, What's not to like?! Who cares if the prince isn't black, little black boys can look up to T'challa and Black Panther! So she turns into a frog? again who cares, you have to realize that disney has been ripping off European fairy tales for years and the got all the good ones already, sure they could of made it in africa, but then they probably would have gotten complaints for that too. P.s. Keith David and the Panty-dropping voice is god (Goliath for the win!_

If some blacks think this is a great achievement for blacks in animation, then good on you. I'm glad some little black girls finally have a fairy princess to imitate. I really am. But, ignoring the continual denial that a black male can be the hero in a children's fairy tale is still screwed up. Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale. If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

So who cares? Obviously quite a few folk it seems. But, in the end it doesn't matter. If anyone has a daughter or niece or granddaughter who likes this sort of stuff then it's probably going to be a good movie for them. I'm sure they can take their little boy too, just realize that he is going to have to sit there and watch as the black princess runs off with the white/off white hero, again, while the one major representation of himself in a movie is shown as the villain, idiot or smuck....again. Sure helps to enforce Disney's image who your little girl should see as a true hero in our society too, right?


Oh, btw. Saw clips of Keith David playing the part of the bad guy and I have to admit, he IS killin' it.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Seven on December 08, 2009, 12:12:37 pm
Well, I haven't seen it yet, but my friends who went in angry were disarmed by the powerfully emotional storytelling that Disney does very well.  Don't discount this.  It's like when PC people don't understand why youn people listen to gangsta rap - people like funky music.


I understand that. But why do we get so hyped up just because white people throw us a little light? If BET had done this exact same film, they'd piss on it from now until Doomsday.

Quote
If there was a Storm outfit available for kids, I would have bought it.


([url]http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufumh3.jpg[/url])

Quote
Is there an Uhura outfit available for kids?


([url]http://i48.tinypic.com/xnzs41.jpg[/url])

Quote
Doesn't matter, my daughter is too young for it.  But Disney princesses?  She's right in the firing line.


I'll never forgive you. Just like I'll never forgive you for Shuri or for Halle Berry.


BET is a bad example, because the brand is the opposite of "quality family entertainment".  But if Tyler Perry had produced PRINCESS AND THE FROG,I think it would still be hit.

Wow, grooving on the Storm outfit.  I got a year to sell her on it.....

On the Storm outfit..They are out of stock and are not even made anynmore.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 08, 2009, 01:00:03 pm
That is messed up. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 08, 2009, 03:12:27 pm
It's December. Out of stock != no longer made. It just means that you won't see a lot of kid Storms running around in May.

Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale.

And pointing out the fact that he has been demoted in his own book and is currently depicted as being a deceitful, disrespectful jackass to his wife is fair. Now that Disney has its hands in the Marvel pot, maybe Shuri will run away w/a white guy, too!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Seven on December 09, 2009, 12:56:51 am
It's December. Out of stock != no longer made. It just means that you won't see a lot of kid Storms running around in May.

Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale.

And pointing out the fact that he has been demoted in his own book and is currently depicted as being a deceitful, disrespectful jackass to his wife is fair. Now that Disney has its hands in the Marvel pot, maybe Shuri will run away w/a white guy, too!

It was out of stock also in September and Oct. I was told that they didn't even make them anymore.

Emma Frost was the new suit for x-girls. trust me.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on December 09, 2009, 02:27:52 am
Emma Frost was the new suit for x-girls. trust me.

Oh to heck with that!  :o  Sell them tutus and tiaras! Better to have little princesses than stripper queens!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: moor on December 09, 2009, 08:32:13 am

If some blacks think this is a great achievement for blacks in animation, then good on you. I'm glad some little black girls finally have a fairy princess to imitate. I really am. But, ignoring the continual denial that a black male can be the hero in a children's fairy tale is still screwed up. Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale. If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

So who cares? Obviously quite a few folk it seems. But, in the end it doesn't matter. If anyone has a daughter or niece or granddaughter who likes this sort of stuff then it's probably going to be a good movie for them. I'm sure they can take their little boy too, just realize that he is going to have to sit there and watch as the black princess runs off with the white/off white hero, again, while the one major representation of himself in a movie is shown as the villain, idiot or smuck....again. Sure helps to enforce Disney's image who your little girl should see as a true hero in our society too, right?


Oh, btw. Saw clips of Keith David playing the part of the bad guy and I have to admit, he IS killin' it.

Except that, the prince is not the hero, but rather the foil, in this movie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 09, 2009, 08:43:02 am
If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

But we DON'T need black princesses, and we DO have Storm, Monica Rambeau and Shuri. But they just aren't glamorous and pretty enough. Plus Storm and Shuri are African, plus Shuri is bald-headed/nappy-headed. I'm sure Monica would merely be dismissed as a dyke. (Yes, I am fluent in black chickenhead.) So neither one of them will do. Storm was created in the mid 1970s. Uhura predates her, even. So all this "we don't have any heroes for little black girls" is complete bullsh*t. What they mean is "we don't have any long-haired prettypretty princesses for black girls."
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 09, 2009, 09:03:18 am
If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

But we DON'T need black princesses, and we DO have Storm, Monica Rambeau and Shuri. But they just aren't glamorous and pretty enough. Plus Storm and Shuri are African, plus Shuri is bald-headed/nappy-headed. I'm sure Monica would merely be dismissed as a dyke. (Yes, I am fluent in black chickenhead.) So neither one of them will do. Storm was created in the mid 1970s. Uhura predates her, even. So all this "we don't have any heroes for little black girls" is complete bullsh*t. What they mean is "we don't have any long-haired prettypretty princesses for black girls."

Storm is glam enough, it just that she does not really matter all that much to 6-8 year old girls(I'm being kind here). Monica Rambeau and Shuri don't even EXIST to that demographic.

If Marvel has ever attempted to market any of its female characters to little girls the way D.C. pushes Wonder Woman and Supergirl I don't know about it.

Like I mentioned in the Holloween thread I've never seen anybody dress up as Storm for Holloween who wasn't around 20 ( in other words-a fangirl). They probably stopped selling Storm's costumes for kids because they weren't selling at all.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 09, 2009, 09:27:14 am
We DO need princesses.  AND Storm and Monica and Shuri and Uhura.  We need lots of choices for lots of girls at different ages. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Seven on December 09, 2009, 09:31:49 am
Emma Frost was the new suit for x-girls. trust me.

Oh to heck with that!  :o  Sell them tutus and tiaras! Better to have little princesses than stripper queens!

I know.. it bothers me.

How come Wonder Woman and Super Girl ALWAYS have suits...but Storm has that one like two or 3 years ago and now It's dead stock.  >:(
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Seven on December 09, 2009, 09:33:52 am
We DO need princesses.  AND Storm and Monica and Shuri and Uhura.  We need lots of choices for lots of girls at different ages. 

Agreed totally.



Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Hypestyle on December 09, 2009, 01:08:00 pm
Isn't there supposed to be a soundtrack song with Ne-Yo?  is it hitting urban radio at all?

i saw Anika Noni Rose on Jimmy Kimmel last week.. Don Rickles was the first guest that night, and I was praying that they didn't delve into any dimwit cracks on the film..

..I can't find any "regular" Tiana dolls at stores.. I see these "talking Tiana" figures that are more expensive..
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: moneyspider on December 09, 2009, 09:38:09 pm
We DO need princesses.  AND Storm and Monica and Shuri and Uhura.  We need lots of choices for lots of girls at different ages.  


I definitely agree, and we also need a LOT more marketing/promotion/advertising of black princesses, Storm, Monica Rambeau and Nyota Uhura.

A few weeks ago I asked my 5-year-old niece if she knows who Storm is...she had never heard of Storm before until I asked (I will teach her, trust me!) But she knows exactly who Tiana in "The Princess and the Frog" is. She's seen the television advertisements and the advertisements on the sides of buses that are promoting the movie.

I'm going to tape some episodes of "Superhero Squad" that have Storm and Panther in them so that she becomes familiar with who they are...there's also a Storm doll on Amazon.com that I would like to get for her.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on December 09, 2009, 10:18:37 pm

If some blacks think this is a great achievement for blacks in animation, then good on you. I'm glad some little black girls finally have a fairy princess to imitate. I really am. But, ignoring the continual denial that a black male can be the hero in a children's fairy tale is still screwed up. Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale. If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

So who cares? Obviously quite a few folk it seems. But, in the end it doesn't matter. If anyone has a daughter or niece or granddaughter who likes this sort of stuff then it's probably going to be a good movie for them. I'm sure they can take their little boy too, just realize that he is going to have to sit there and watch as the black princess runs off with the white/off white hero, again, while the one major representation of himself in a movie is shown as the villain, idiot or smuck....again. Sure helps to enforce Disney's image who your little girl should see as a true hero in our society too, right?


Oh, btw. Saw clips of Keith David playing the part of the bad guy and I have to admit, he IS killin' it.

Except that, the prince is not the hero, but rather the foil, in this movie.

Not sure what you mean here. If you have already seen the movie, is the Middle Eastern character the protagonist and paired with the princess? Does a black male come to save the day for the princess or is it a male of another culture? The point I was making is the consistent pairing of every female on the planet, for the most part in these types of movies, with the white hero as if the males from all other cultures cannot truly be the hero to their female counterparts.

Black princess with white/off-white prince/hero/protagonist/savior....whatever. You should understand what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 10, 2009, 12:00:28 am
What I am hearing from folks who have seen the film is it's the best PRINCESS movie Disney has ever done. The values presented to little girls is good from a feminist perspective are very positive.  Hard work, do for self, etc....We are focusing on one issue in this thread, but there's more going on. 

My daughter enjoyed it and wants to take me, so I'll see it soon.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 10, 2009, 12:33:32 am
The values presented to little girls is good from a feminist perspective are very positive.  Hard work, do for self...

...kiss a man for money...lulz. You have people defending the feminist issues in GLEE, ffs. Don't give me that bullsh*t.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 10, 2009, 05:26:24 am
Lets see Mulan got to fight in a war in male drag, Jasmine was Aladdin's physical equal and had all the money too.

Beauty and the Beast is a whole other subject.  I'm not sure that  out the femenisto-meter and checking how this flick scores is particularly helpful.

Especially when doctrinare feminist values in paractise have been roundly rejected by women anyway.

 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: moor on December 10, 2009, 06:28:22 am

If some blacks think this is a great achievement for blacks in animation, then good on you. I'm glad some little black girls finally have a fairy princess to imitate. I really am. But, ignoring the continual denial that a black male can be the hero in a children's fairy tale is still screwed up. Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale. If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

So who cares? Obviously quite a few folk it seems. But, in the end it doesn't matter. If anyone has a daughter or niece or granddaughter who likes this sort of stuff then it's probably going to be a good movie for them. I'm sure they can take their little boy too, just realize that he is going to have to sit there and watch as the black princess runs off with the white/off white hero, again, while the one major representation of himself in a movie is shown as the villain, idiot or smuck....again. Sure helps to enforce Disney's image who your little girl should see as a true hero in our society too, right?


Oh, btw. Saw clips of Keith David playing the part of the bad guy and I have to admit, he IS killin' it.

Except that, the prince is not the hero, but rather the foil, in this movie.

Not sure what you mean here. If you have already seen the movie, is the Middle Eastern character the protagonist and paired with the princess? Does a black male come to save the day for the princess or is it a male of another culture? The point I was making is the consistent pairing of every female on the planet, for the most part in these types of movies, with the white hero as if the males from all other cultures cannot truly be the hero to their female counterparts.

Black princess with white/off-white prince/hero/protagonist/savior....whatever. You should understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying your assumption is flawed before you've even seen the movie.  You keep equating prince with savior/protag ... my point is He isn't the point - the princess is.  That's supposed to be the distinction in this movie, not just skin color.  This movie should be more akin to Mulan than Pocahontas.  Whether he was white, black, or purple... the prince's story just doesn't matter.. he's not on screen to make little boys feel good about themselves...

Now, if you've got a hangup with black cartoon princesses dating white cartoon princes, I can't help you...   ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 10, 2009, 07:14:54 am
Outside of Aladdin where the male hero is the protagonist, there hasn't been a Disney film where the prince is the outright savior of the princess since The Little Mermaid.

It might be useful to distinguish Disney movies like the Mulan, Beauty and the Beast and Princess and the Frog where the female is the protagonist from Disney films like Aladdin, Lion King, Hercules and Tarzan where the male is.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: The Evasive 1 on December 10, 2009, 12:55:14 pm

If some blacks think this is a great achievement for blacks in animation, then good on you. I'm glad some little black girls finally have a fairy princess to imitate. I really am. But, ignoring the continual denial that a black male can be the hero in a children's fairy tale is still screwed up. Pointing to T'Challa isn't a reasonable substitution, as we are talking about a childrens' animated film of a fairy tale. If it were that easy then we could argue there isn't a need for the black princess at all since black girls already have Storm, Monica Rambeau (she's from New Orleans, right?) or Shuri.

So who cares? Obviously quite a few folk it seems. But, in the end it doesn't matter. If anyone has a daughter or niece or granddaughter who likes this sort of stuff then it's probably going to be a good movie for them. I'm sure they can take their little boy too, just realize that he is going to have to sit there and watch as the black princess runs off with the white/off white hero, again, while the one major representation of himself in a movie is shown as the villain, idiot or smuck....again. Sure helps to enforce Disney's image who your little girl should see as a true hero in our society too, right?


Oh, btw. Saw clips of Keith David playing the part of the bad guy and I have to admit, he IS killin' it.

Except that, the prince is not the hero, but rather the foil, in this movie.

Not sure what you mean here. If you have already seen the movie, is the Middle Eastern character the protagonist and paired with the princess? Does a black male come to save the day for the princess or is it a male of another culture? The point I was making is the consistent pairing of every female on the planet, for the most part in these types of movies, with the white hero as if the males from all other cultures cannot truly be the hero to their female counterparts.

Black princess with white/off-white prince/hero/protagonist/savior....whatever. You should understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying your assumption is flawed before you've even seen the movie.  You keep equating prince with savior/protag ... my point is He isn't the point - the princess is.  That's supposed to be the distinction in this movie, not just skin color.  This movie should be more akin to Mulan than Pocahontas.  Whether he was white, black, or purple... the prince's story just doesn't matter.. he's not on screen to make little boys feel good about themselves...

Now, if you've got a hangup with black cartoon princesses dating white cartoon princes, I can't help you...   ;D

Assumption or no, the question I asked to you is IF YOU had seen the movie prior to making your previous statement and if you could expound on your comment if you had seen it. If all you have seen are short excerpts from the movie or reading the synopsis or articles about the story, then you are on the same level as I am to make your assumptions, opinions or what not. Also Disney has put enough visuals and info out to be able to make some type of analysis (or assumptions if you will) in order to create interest in the movie.

Agreed that ultimately the movie, as most of these Disney films with a "damsel in distress", is primarily about the girl. However, that doesn't negate Disney's continual emphasis on the white male (or sort of white as long as he ain't black in this movie) lead at the expense another male cultural lead. No, Disney isn't concerned that the black boy feels good about himself in the context of a fairytale. For the most part they never had. Doesn't necessarily mean it's right either. But it is what it is. For my part, if there was a balance in Disney's past practices in that department, then I wouldn't think much about what the prince was in this movie.

As far a needing your help for any perceived hang ups I got about a white cartoon prince dating a black princess, you are correct in that you cannot help me as that is not the case and I didn't ask for assistance. If that is your perception based on my and some other folks previous comments, related to this topic, then your missing my point. ;)

Regardless, Hudlin is right in that there are other positive aspects that can be discussed about the movie. I don't want to be one of those responsible for hijacking the thread and sticking with only one negative issue. For those who have seen the movie, what is the consensus about the values presented that are helpful to black girls that haven't been mentioned?
 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 10, 2009, 05:53:18 pm
What I am hearing from folks who have seen the film is it's the best PRINCESS movie Disney has ever done. The values presented to little girls is good from a feminist perspective are very positive.  Hard work, do for self, etc....We are focusing on one issue in this thread, but there's more going on. 

My daughter enjoyed it and wants to take me, so I'll see it soon.

How have you not seen the film?


I thought the routine was to have Black celebs see the movie first so they can make the usual package on BET extoling the greatness of the film.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Princesa on December 10, 2009, 07:11:55 pm
I have zero interest in this movie.
That grown-ass women seem like they "need" it is sad.
Like Jay Z says, in a months time it will be "on to the next thing"
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 11, 2009, 05:10:52 am
What I am hearing from folks who have seen the film is it's the best PRINCESS movie Disney has ever done. The values presented to little girls is good from a feminist perspective are very positive.  Hard work, do for self, etc....We are focusing on one issue in this thread, but there's more going on. 

My daughter enjoyed it and wants to take me, so I'll see it soon.

How have you not seen the film?


I thought the routine was to have Black celebs see the movie first so they can make the usual package on BET extoling the greatness of the film.
I was supposed to take my daughter on Tuesday to one of the special screenings on the Disney lot, but I was sick so the wife stepped in. After the movie the audience went to a soundstage that had been tricked out with ALL the Disney princesses there, recreations of locations from the film where the kids could play, etc. 

They weren't even selling product.  It was just to hype the kids up.  My wife brought home great shots of my daughter meeting Princess Tiana.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 11, 2009, 10:36:57 am
hmmmm well well well. After 2 years of banter the movie is finally out. I'll may be interested in "seeing" the movie. So I have a question to all of the viewers. Is there a "memorable" song that is catchy that will have us singing it for years? hakuna matata?, Be a Man? (yeah that wasnt a good example but that was the only one i can think of for mulan), A whole new world, Bare Necessities, Under the Sea?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 11, 2009, 11:33:31 am
That grown-ass women seem like they "need" it is sad.

Remember when Vogue Italia did an all-black models issue, and black women went and sold it out like a bunch of freaking fools, and then Vogue Italia (not VOGUE, mind you) went right back to all its all-white issues? Yeah, exactly. I'll never be ashamed to be a black woman, but sometimes I am disgusted to be one. For God's sake, get a goddamn grip!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: moneyspider on December 11, 2009, 02:19:55 pm
hmmmm well well well. After 2 years of banter the movie is finally out. I'll may be interested in "seeing" the movie. So I have a question to all of the viewers. Is there a "memorable" song that is catchy that will have us singing it for years? hakuna matata?, Be a Man? (yeah that wasnt a good example but that was the only one i can think of for mulan), A whole new world, Bare Necessities, Under the Sea?

I think "A Whole New World" is a great song...I have that one on some of my mixed tapes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JLI Jesse on December 11, 2009, 04:50:38 pm
I think "A Whole New World" is a great song...I have that one on some of my mixed tapes.

Ah, memories of buying the Aladdin soundtrack at disney world and listening to it on my walkman in 5th grade.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Freakzeek on December 11, 2009, 10:35:21 pm
Friends on the Other Side  song by Keith David is f*cking orgasmic
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 12, 2009, 12:35:23 pm
Took $7.5 on Friday.  (http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2009/12/12/moviegoers-kiss-the-princess-and-the-frog-in-the-saturday-box-office-report/)That's...okay. Compare it to The Blind Side, which took in $4.7, but has been out for about three years now. Impressive, but underwhelming.

My cousin went last night (no surprise there). Her mom asked me to go with her, which I think was supposed to be a joke. She said she liked it, but she, like most of the reviewers, tend to consciously ignore the plot of this film when talking about it. Probably because the "princess" is a frog about 80% of the time. I don't think FP is going to bomb, but with the neeeeverending talk about it for well over two years, $7.5 million isn't exactly kicking any ass, even if it is just opening day.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 12, 2009, 04:33:30 pm
I saw it today. I liked it for the most part. I have my criticisms, many of them already written by others in this thread or in reviews across cyberspace, so I'm not really going to go into that, unless asked. I liked the classic animation style, I think the film's songs were decent, though none really knocked me out like "A Whole New World", "Hakuna Matata", "Circle of Life", "Under the Sea", "Color of the Wind", or the Phil Collins song from "Tarzan". However, I thought Anoki Rose had a beautiful voice. I think this movie is one of Disney's better animated films and should rank up there with the bigger recent animated films like Lion King, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin. Even though I liked Mulan, Hercules, Hunchback of Notre Dame, never watched all of Pocahantas, and didn't care for Emperor's New Groove, those films didn't really seem quite big enough for me. Though I really liked the bad guy from Mulan and I thought James Woods did his thing as Hades.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Freakzeek on December 12, 2009, 06:31:09 pm
I found the overall movie left me with enough positive feelings that I was able to overlook the flaws I perceived.
I went in with low expectations, and this was better than I expected. There were moments that surprised me. For example, the romance is rushed (as most Disney romances seem to be), but, at the end, it was a relationship where both characters helped each other get over their flaws, which I found to be nicely mature, and certainly better than the simple love at first sight cliche.
EVERY Disney prince & princess couple got way less development than they did, with the sole exception of Belle and Beast. So Tiana and Naveen are already better than most Disney couples.
It may not be the greatest movie ever, but it's a step above the films Disney has been doing lately. Despite the fact that the prince was ambigously brown and had a mixture of languages and accents,Naveen is the first Disney prince I've actually liked, as opposed to have been "Eh." towards.
The first prince to lose all his wealth and end up a musical waiter at a restaurant.
i think this is the first prince that actually has fell in love with a princess just for her personality!
Ray the Firefly is the one of the most tragic and endearing character's disney has made to date, thought i would hate that little bastard, But He has become one of my favorite disney characters ever
 It was a good 2d film and seems like it should be in the disney family. It was a serviceable enjoyable Disney princess movie that the whole family could enjoy, they didn't aim high with this film. The entire film was just made to sell more Princess DVDs to black kids. But it doesn't feel like a completely soulless endeavor (even though they altered the plot and look of the film to make it more profitable...but it so was and that is an accomplishment

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Princesa on December 13, 2009, 07:46:25 pm
That grown-ass women seem like they "need" it is sad.

Remember when Vogue Italia did an all-black models issue, and black women went and sold it out like a bunch of freaking fools, and then Vogue Italia (not VOGUE, mind you) went right back to all its all-white issues? Yeah, exactly. I'll never be ashamed to be a black woman, but sometimes I am disgusted to be one. For God's sake, get a goddamn grip!

I remember that and you're right they went right back to business as usual...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 14, 2009, 07:01:01 am
There was a lot of production put into 2 new Disney logos in the opening, a huge 3 dimensional rendering of the magic castle and a 2 dimensional rendering of the 1st Disney feature, Steamboat Willie.
Which brings me to review Disney's last animated movie in the 1st decade of the new millenium, The Princess & The Frog.

A long overdue period piece staged in New Orleans, Louisiana that fits snugly between the continuity of Lady & The Tramp, 101 Dalmations and the Aristocats but just before Dumbo. I would even throw ex-Disney animator, Don Bluth's Anastasia in the gumbo pot. So, historically it would have to fall somewhere in the mid-1900s where the main character, Tiana was just a child sampling her father's gumbo soup with just a few daps of hot sauce and the early 1910s when Woodrow Wilson was elected president, who did absolutely nothing to aid American blacks from segregation rules in federal departments, agencies right down to the black & white communities as Southern Democrats came into power and wealth
---and what wealth they had! Jim Crow was in full swing!
The Prince & The Frog bravely illustrates this social injustice between the rich and the poor with beautifully painted backgrounds...   ...the brightly colored streets of the New Orleans Quarters...  ...lush southern lakes...  ...shades of green swamplands... ...all high standard trademarks of what you'd expect from the Disney artists.
Just like you'd expect strong characterizations like the mysteriously, charismatic Dr. Facilier (whose shadow takes on a life of its own), the gregarious Prince Naveen of Maldonia and the hard-working, ambitious Tiana.
All of the scenes are handled with a high degree of class and honest integrity, even when Tiana's plans to open her own restaurant is hampered by discrimination.
You'd also expect to hear huge, colorful musical numbers that signal every characters introduction, dreams and ambitions where the music is very inspiring and the further the characters go on thier respective journeys, the more varied the music genre:  classic jazz, swing, zydeco (brr-r-rr! :P) and spiritual gospel.
You expect the villian, cleverly drawn by the hand of Mr. Bruce W. Smith, an official member of Disney's  9 Old Men, to be eliminated by the hero and the prince & princess kiss and live happily ever after.

What you don't expect is how the story is being told and that it's a nice, little story.  
Really, really  nice and this is how you end the 'decade of hell', with a lil' song & dance.
Personally, I knew that...
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/Battle-D/Theband_02.gif)
---Dis Gon Be Guuud!

On a scale of 1 through 5, 5 being the highest
---I give it a 4! (http://i40.tinypic.com/24wvfvc.jpg)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 14, 2009, 09:13:06 am
So the official weekend tally is $25 million. This for a film that was hyped for two years solid and cost over $100m to produce. To put that in perspective, Where the Wild Things Are grossed $33m in its opening weekend. A Christmas Carol, $31m. Happy Feet, $41m. Alvin & the Chipmunks (of all films), $44m. So...post-racial America? I think not.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 14, 2009, 01:05:21 pm
So the official weekend tally is $25 million. This for a film that was hyped for two years solid and cost over $100m to produce. To put that in perspective, Where the Wild Things Are grossed $33m in its opening weekend. A Christmas Carol, $31m. Happy Feet, $41m. Alvin & the Chipmunks (of all films), $44m. So...post-racial America? I think not.

Obviously, Jenn's campaign has caused this low showing for the film!

If it fails and no other Black themed Disney films are made; I will blame Jenn! 8)

P.S. I will be alerting all of the women I saw on TV celebrating this film Jenn's address so they can "Discuss" her views on the movie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 14, 2009, 01:41:38 pm
Jenn failed to mention that iThe Princess and The Frog did better than anything else last weekend (it beat Invictus handily).

So nobody saw much of anything last weekend.

27 Mil ain't great but it's gonna run for a heckuva while and the foreign box office hasn't been counted yet. 

And I'm not sure why it matters if White folks see this movie or not.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 14, 2009, 01:58:19 pm
Could've sworn the link I posted to CLEARLY said it would be #1, which is was. Try again, Vic.

(And LOL @ comparing this to Invictus, a film that most people had never even heard of until two weeks ago.)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 14, 2009, 03:40:49 pm
The Princess & The Frog will do fine financially
---over time.

This Disney feature is a milestone and milestones are collector's items.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on December 14, 2009, 06:32:36 pm
If it's really that good I hope it makes some positive changes. I wasn't impressed by Pocahantis, but Mulan definitely made an impact in Asia.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 15, 2009, 01:45:03 am
hmmmm well well well. After 2 years of banter the movie is finally out. I'll may be interested in "seeing" the movie. So I have a question to all of the viewers. Is there a "memorable" song that is catchy that will have us singing it for years? hakuna matata?, Be a Man? (yeah that wasnt a good example but that was the only one i can think of for mulan), A whole new world, Bare Necessities, Under the Sea?

That's a tough one.

The Animated Disney Musical fell off dramatically after Lion King (the last really great one). Pocahontas has "Colors Of The Wind" which had some crossover sucess, I think. But I don't think anybody hums "Go The Distance" Hercules' signiture song. I saw Tarzan and couldn't tell you what the signiture song was for it(Looked it up-"You'll Be In My Heart"... I STILL don't remember it).

I don't remember ever hearing a single song from Mulan.

It's asking too much to expect anything to even match Lion King or the films made before it. And it doesn't help that Disney went with Randy Newman over Elton John, a guy who can do anthemic ballads in his sleep probably.

The fact that much of the buzz I'm hearing is about Friends On The Other Side" the badguy's song is not a good sign.

I'll probably end up checking this out just to settle the issue in my head.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 15, 2009, 01:57:41 am
So the official weekend tally is $25 million. This for a film that was hyped for two years solid and cost over $100m to produce. To put that in perspective, Where the Wild Things Are grossed $33m in its opening weekend. A Christmas Carol, $31m. Happy Feet, $41m. Alvin & the Chipmunks (of all films), $44m. So...post-racial America? I think not.

I think Jenn makes a good point here. Yes, P & F was the number one movie, but it had a very weak opening for a Disney film, esp. the first animated film that's come out in ages. I do question the release date though. I think this film is going to get buried by Avatar, and it should've been released on Christmas day. P & F should've had a stronger opening. Even Tyler Perry movies open stronger these days it seems and I'm a little surprised that more people didn't go check this out. I have to wonder if all the talk about the non-black prince and maybe Tiana spending a good deal of time as a frog depressed turnout. I do think however that the movie will make most or all of its money back. Dreamgirls didn't quite turn out to be the juggernaut it was supposed to be, but it did all right. I think P & F will earn most or all of its money back in time. I do wonder how the international markets will react since it has been widely reported that foreign markets usually don't care for movies with black leads, unless they are Will Smith. If some people are planning on the worldwide gross to save this film, don't be so sure. This film is going to have to make it by word of mouth, but I do think it has staying power and if Disney lets it hang in the theater for a month or two, and it earns 20 milllion or so for four weeks, it'll get it's money back.

Christmas Carol started off strong and then stalled, for example. Hopefully P & F will get some wind behind it and do the opposite.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: moor on December 16, 2009, 06:15:23 am
Should've opened Thanksgiving weekend.  They picked a crappy, crappy, weekend to open.  People are still too busy shopping, studying, wrapping up loose ends at work, etc., to make a big splash in the first two weeks of the December. 

Should see a slight resurgence over the Holiday week... Not everybody wants to see Sherlock Holmes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on December 17, 2009, 12:27:12 pm
I know the Christmas merchandising is soaring.  I think I've received calls from 5 or 6 family members gushing about the Princess Tiana dolls they got for my daughters.  My girls will be happy, they'll have four or five black princess dolls to play with!

As for the movie itself, I'll have to wait for the DVD.  We don't take our kids to the movies...what's the point.  We aspire not to be "those people".  ;D

And on a really, really, really side note.  My daughter is two (three in March) and my wife has taught her how to read.  I mean read not just sight words, but sitting down with library books and reading to herself and sounding out words she doesn't know.  Nothing to do with the movie, but I'm just a proud papa!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 17, 2009, 02:29:13 pm
I know the Christmas merchandising is soaring.  I think I've received calls from 5 or 6 family members gushing about the Princess Tiana dolls they got for my daughters.  My girls will be happy, they'll have four or five black princess dolls to play with!

As for the movie itself, I'll have to wait for the DVD.  We don't take our kids to the movies...what's the point.  We aspire not to be "those people".  ;D

And on a really, really, really side note.  My daughter is two (three in March) and my wife has taught her how to read.  I mean read not just sight words, but sitting down with library books and reading to herself and sounding out words she doesn't know.  Nothing to do with the movie, but I'm just a proud papa!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

You all our my hero.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on December 17, 2009, 06:26:25 pm
I know the Christmas merchandising is soaring.  I think I've received calls from 5 or 6 family members gushing about the Princess Tiana dolls they got for my daughters.  My girls will be happy, they'll have four or five black princess dolls to play with!

As for the movie itself, I'll have to wait for the DVD.  We don't take our kids to the movies...what's the point.  We aspire not to be "those people".  ;D

And on a really, really, really side note.  My daughter is two (three in March) and my wife has taught her how to read.  I mean read not just sight words, but sitting down with library books and reading to herself and sounding out words she doesn't know.  Nothing to do with the movie, but I'm just a proud papa!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

You all our my hero.

Thanks, Reg!!!  For a minute I thought this was the Twitter thread! LOL  Not to further derail the thread, but my wife left our daughter with her church group for a mommy's day out and when she got back she said the women were amazed because Nyah was reading the words on their bulletin board.  OK...I'm officially an obnoxious "my daughter's a genius" parent! </end parental fawning>  :D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on December 18, 2009, 05:20:29 am
Not to further derail the thread, but my wife left our daughter with her church group for a mommy's day out and when she got back she said the women were amazed because Nyah was reading the words on their bulletin board.  OK...I'm officially an obnoxious "my daughter's a genius" parent! </end parental fawning>  :D

Not at all. You're supposed to be bursting with pride. Fawn away. (My daughter's a genius too.)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 18, 2009, 06:51:29 am
Not to further derail the thread, but my wife left our daughter with her church group for a mommy's day out and when she got back she said the women were amazed because Nyah was reading the words on their bulletin board.  OK...I'm officially an obnoxious "my daughter's a genius" parent! </end parental fawning>  :D

Not at all. You're supposed to be bursting with pride. Fawn away. (My daughter's a genius too.)
Co-sign both comments.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 18, 2009, 07:21:00 am

As for the movie itself, I'll have to wait for the DVD.  We don't take our kids to the movies...what's the point.  We aspire not to be "those people".  ;D


I can't wait to hear the commentary on the DVD from Bruce W. Smith!  I also hope the DVD contains lots and lots of his pencil tests!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 18, 2009, 12:46:32 pm
Conservative Christians Don't Crown 'Princess and the Frog' (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/18/conservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2009%2F12%2F18%2Fconservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog%2F)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 20, 2009, 11:13:31 pm
Up to $44.7m.  (http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princessandthefrog.htm)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 21, 2009, 02:28:42 am
Conservative Christians Don't Crown 'Princess and the Frog' ([url]http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/18/conservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog/?icid=main[/url]|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2009%2F12%2F18%2Fconservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog%2F)

Right wing Christians don't like references to African based theologies? 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 21, 2009, 06:33:01 am
Conservative Christians Don't Crown 'Princess and the Frog' ([url]http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/18/conservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog/?icid=main[/url]|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2009%2F12%2F18%2Fconservative-christians-dont-crown-princess-and-the-frog%2F)

Right wing Christians don't like references to African based theologies?  



(http://i44.tinypic.com/3x7rl.jpg)
SHOCKING!


EDIT:  
Here's a brief forum exchange from a reader of Black Panther #13 (vol. I) between  Mr. Hudlin  and  a few HEF members three years ago that relates to this discussion of monotheistic religions, primal religions,  and how they are portrayed in Hollywood movies. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/deal2.gif)


Frre Vodoun : Hi Reggie, isn't "Lord of the Loa", a bit disrespectful?
Loved BP #13 it was a great issue especially when you like Bro Voodoo. What irks me a little bit was the comment of Bro Voodoo calling himself "Lord of the Loa". I mean that's like a christian calling himself "Lord of God". The Loa are after all the deities in Vodun and it's a bit, well, disrespectful I'd say.

Hulkster : I don't know.  My understanding is that the Loa are not deities, but are rather spirits who serve as intermediaries to the god Bondye.  They are more akin to saints or angels than they are deities and in the Western practice of Vodun, St. Peter is synonymous with Papa Legba of the Loa.

Also, the term "Lord" as it relates to God/Jesus is but one definition of the term.  It is also defined as a man of renowned power or authority and a man who has mastery in a given field or activity.  Brother Voodoo's statement could be that he is saying that he is the master Houngan who possesses above others the ability to summon and request the services of the Loa.  In other words, he is not literally the lord of the Loa, but rather is the lord among those who serve them.

Frre Vodoun :
Quote
I don't know.  My understanding is that the Loa are not deities, but are rather spirits who serve as intermediaries to the god Bondye.  They are more akin to saints or angels than they are deities and in the Western practice of Vodun, St. Peter is synonymous with Papa Legba of the Loa.


You're quite right, the Loa or Lwa are, in essence, spirits but their role is a lot more complex than just being intermediates between "Bondye" which is creole for "Bon Dieu" a French term meaning "good God".

Bondye is considered to be a distant and aloof figure who does not have much interest in the affairs of men. The Lwa on the other hand are much closer to the believers and can be "coaxed" to work for ones interest through sacrifice and service, they are not simply prayed to. They're also not simply archetypes like European deities. Each one has a specific personality with likes and dislikes, favorite songs, dances and rhymes.

You are also right when you compare saints to the Lwa but it's not just simple syncretism that takes place here. It's more the idea that the saints are place holders for the Lwa. This means that St Peter is not Papa Legba, but that Papa Legba is Saint Peter. A little bit complicated I admit. I think an adequate example would be St. Peter is a dress that Papa Legba wears.

However I'm only familiar with Haitian Vodun there are so many different practices around the world that it hard to make certain statements that count for every form of the religion. Even Haitian Vodun is not homogeneous. A lot of Honfour have their own rules and sometimes even have local Lwa which are not served by other congregations.

But one thing is anonymously in common. That the Lwa is the Master and the believer is the servant. A believer could never claim power over a Lwa if the Lwa doesn't want to. This is why I thought that the line "Lord of the Loa" is uhmmm. a little unfortunately chosen since it creates a semantic ambiguity that could create a false impression on the role of the Lwa.

Quote
Hmmm, interesting point I admit. This interpretation would avoid the pitfall I see in the choice of the wording. But I think it also creates a litte bit of a conflict with the role of the Hougan. A Hougan is in essence a priest who knows the rituals it's not so much about his own power more about the power the Lwa bestow upon him. Even a non Hougan can be extremely powerful when he or she is directly chosen to be the vessel of a Lwa. For example a believer ridden by Erzulie or one of the Barons would be seen as a direct conduct trough which the Power of the Lwa flows into this plain of existence. It's all pretty complicated but imho immensely fascinating. Man. the more I type the more I wish there would be a comic about Brother Voodoo where all these things could be shown.



Hmmm, interesting point I admit. This interpretation would avoid the pitfall I see in the choice of the wording. But I think it also creates a litte bit of a conflict with the role of the Hougan. A Hougan is in essence a priest who knows the rituals it's not so much about his own power more about the power the Lwa bestow upon him. Even a non Hougan can be extremely powerful when he or she is directly chosen to be the vessel of a Lwa. For example a believer ridden by Erzulie or one of the Barons would be seen as a direct conduct trough which the Power of the Lwa flows into this plain of existence. It's all pretty complicated but imho immensely fascinating. Man. the more I type the more I wish there would be a comic about Brother Voodoo where all these things could be shown.

cienciano:
disrespectful?? c'mon man it's literature. what the characters says is not necessarily what the writer thinks. the characters are free to say whatever they want , they can say: '' i am going to kill god'' or things like that, or '' i am a demon worshipper'' etc. or '' i am god'', this isn't disrespect. this is the diversity and personality of literature characters.
you can't compare fiction with morality.

Frre Vodoun:
No No, you misunderstand me. I don't want to instigate something about the morality of the issue. Of course Reggie is free to write whatever he likes, with out question. I also know that character perspective does not have to equal the attitude of the author. What I hinted at is that it doesn't ring quite true for a Believer in the religion of Vodun to say he's the "Lord of the Loa" after all he as a worshipper has to have a huge amount of respect for them and I think it doesn't feel authentic when he calls himself the Lord of the beings he worships. I mean it's a completely subjective thing of course but that was the impression I got when reading the issue.  

Wise Son:
It could be that 'Lord' is used in the same way that it is in relation to 'king'. A lord is someone very senior, but still a servant to the king, or in this case the Lwa. This would denote Brother Voodoo as the servant of the Lwa, but still someone powerful enough that those vampires should have known better than to take him on on the spiritual plane.

Curtis Metcalf:
I would guess that Reginald appreciates you sharing your knowledge, Frere Vodoun.  I know I do.

Frre Vodoun:
Thanks, Vodun is a little bit of a passion of me and I love to talk about it

Hulkster:
Hey Frre.

I did some research on this and come to find out that the phrase "Lord of the Loa" does mean just that.  Brother Voodoo does have command over the Loa.  The thing is that this and the phrase predate Reggie.  The first being to be granted this power was named Laurent and he actually went by the handle of "Lord of the Loa".  He appears in DR. STRANGE decades ago.  As time goes on and the individuals die, the power is passed on to others and Brother Voodoo is the current weilder of this power.  I believe that even in Brother Voodoo's first appearances, he is referred to as "Lord of the Loa."

In the Marvel Universe, I don't think that Bondye is an actual character (I may be wrong) and the Loa fall under the authority of the African pantheon.  Legba is viewed as a god from this pantheon who is master of the Loa.  He is the one who grants the power to Laurent by using a spell from Gaea.

So this is really something established by Marvel years ago as opposed to something Reggie came up with.  Being that the Vodun religion is not widespread, Marvel has probably had practically no presure not to "disrespect" it.  But then again, if you read books such as Constantine, Sandmand, Ghost Rider, etc., one can find many examples of things that could be considered as disrespectful to Christianity.  So I figure that the best thing to do is just view these as comicbook versions of religious characters that don't represent the actual religions.  

reginald hudlin:
Wow, smart thread.  

Yes, I got the phrase from Brother Voodoo's original aappearances  And I didn't find it disrespectful, but I'm sure that is up to interpretation.

Frre Vodoun:
Quote
Quote from: Hulkster on March 09, 2006, 11:50:26 AM
Hey Frre.

I did some research on this and come to find out that the phrase "Lord of the Loa" does mean just that.  Brother Voodoo does have command over the Loa.  The thing is that this and the phrase predate Reggie.  The first being to be granted this power was named Laurent and he actually went by the handle of "Lord of the Loa".  He appears in DR. STRANGE decades ago.  As time goes on and the individuals die, the power is passed on to others and Brother Voodoo is the current weilder of this power.  I believe that even in Brother Voodoo's first appearances, he is referred to as "Lord of the Loa."

In the Marvel Universe, I don't think that Bondye is an actual character (I may be wrong) and the Loa fall under the authority of the African pantheon.  Legba is viewed as a god from this pantheon who is master of the Loa.  He is the one who grants the power to Laurent by using a spell from Gaea.

So this is really something established by Marvel years ago as opposed to something Reggie came up with.  Being that the Vodun religion is not widespread, Marvel has probably had practically no presure not to "disrespect" it.  But then again, if you read books such as Constantine, Sandmand, Ghost Rider, etc., one can find many examples of things that could be considered as disrespectful to Christianity.  So I figure that the best thing to do is just view these as comicbook versions of religious characters that don't represent the actual religions.


Ahhh okay now I see thanks Hulkster. Sorry Reg I apologize.

 However, I still must say that I find the phrase terrible *g*. But now that I know the historical context of the phrase I can chalk it down to Marvel writing about something they clearly didn't know much about back then. Hey I'm actually glad no one gave Bro Voodoo some dolls or nonsense like that.

However I must say that Marvel got the whole "Vodun pantheon" totally wrong in terms of all the things you wrote. Papa Legba is not the highest Lwa, he's the gate keeper, the one who is always invoked first in every ceremony cause he has to open the gate to the spiritual world, to Guinea (In Vodun it is believed that your spirit goes back to Africa when you die and this spiritual Africa is called Guinea). as far as I'm informed the highest Lwa, as far as you can call of a herachy, is Damballa. In Vodun, Damballa is one of the most important of all the Lwa. He is associated with snakes. He is also the father of all the rest of the Lwa.

You're right about the comic book thing though. Maybe I'm a little bit oversensitive of  the issue cause Vodun has really gotten a bad rap from popular culture with all the spells and dolls and "black magic" stuff which has actually very little to do with the religion....

that or I'm a nitpicky person who's obsessed with accuracy.  

Hmmm on the other hand, a Brother Voodoo onging could kinda retcon the whole thing into perspective. I just hope the TV series which is rumored to be in development  is not going to incorporate the Marvel canon

Btw Reggie, what I found really cool was the one panel where Bro calls to the female Vamp to beat it and his eyes glow in the form of crucifixes, that was badass   hehe

reginald hudlin:
Yes, there is no question that Vodun is almost always badly portrayed in movies.  Not only is it vilified, it's not used in a way that is even exciting...or even scary.  

Sometimes it's useful to learn the rules and throw them away.  Your favorite moment (the crucifix eyes) was something I did because it was cool.  No need to play cop with accuracy there.  It's not like Stan Lee or Steve Ditko concerned themselves with Wiccan or Eastern mysticism when the created Dr. Strange.  They just did the coolest stuff they can think of.  

There's a lesson there.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 22, 2009, 09:05:35 pm
^^^ Is there a link to that thread?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 25, 2009, 08:19:48 pm
Finally caught The Princess and the Frog. Went with my sister and best bud and enjoyed it a lot. The characters were really well done and I was hooked on them all. Tiana and Naveen were extremely likable characters and I was expecting to hate her best friend and Ray, the Firebug but I think Ray ended up being everyone's favorite.

Now I felt that the music wasn't as memorable as all the other Disney flicks, but the music very much were all well done and fit with the tone they were going for the movie. Friends on the OtherSide, though, by the villain was very catchy and memorable.

Another small critique was that I felt there was a bit too much musical numbers. I'm gonna need to watch the other Disney flicks again because I surely don't remember this much music. While I felt the music did lead the story forward, many times I just wanted to just watch the story go on by itself. But beyond that, I wasn't too bothered. I was entertained. I'll actually be seeing this again tomorrow with my brother this time who also wanted to see it.

I'd give this a B+

Really happy to see 2D animated Disney again.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 26, 2009, 07:15:33 pm
The Christmas Day numbers are in. FP came in eighth (http://boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2009-12-25&p=.htm). Its numbers for this week - a week where children are on Christmas vacation - are no better than the numbers for last week. If this film doesn't recoup its production by New Year's - and it won't - then it'll officially be a bomb.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 27, 2009, 12:36:31 pm
I hope the film doesn't flop, but is underperforming. I checked the box office take total and the film has only earned roughly 63 million, and it cost 100 million to make. I'm sure that Disney will probably make a good deal of that back with merchandising and selling DVDs, but I wonder why this film is underperforming like this? Could it be the black lead? Or was it the release date? The story? Are people not as interested in 2-D animation anymore?

I wonder what the fallout will be because of the film's performance. On one hand if its considered a failure will it make animated films with black leads next to impossible to get made, will the excuse be because of the black lead and relative black subject matter, or was how Disney told this story, and/or depicted a black experience that didn't ignite audience interest? Did the film dancing around black-black relationship hurt it?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 27, 2009, 12:40:38 pm
Don't forget the crazy competition. You have Avatar and the sequel to Alvin and the Chipmunk, which the first one did fairly well too and was a fun Christmas movie, so there's that audience.

And RDJ is on a roll lately after Iron Man, so Sherlock for sure got some lock.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 27, 2009, 01:07:11 pm
Crazy competition doesn't explain why The Blind Side is on its way to making $200m in just one month. That was a PG-13 movie; this is rated G. TBS is practically word of mouth, while Frog Princess (I refuse to call it anything else) was hyped for two years and is playing in far more movie theaters. FP is Disney; TBS is not. Yet TBS came in sixth place on Christmas Day, despite having been released a week earlier. It has to be something else. Alvin and the Chipmunks made more in its opening day than Princess made in its opening week.

Slightly O/T, but if I get quoted one more time (http://www.helenair.com/entertainment/yourtime/article_794ce93c-eadf-11de-b156-001cc4c03286.html?mode=story), I'm going to have a stroke. My column doesn't even address the story anymore because everything I wrote two and a half year ago was changed! And yet they use this piece (http://web.archive.org/web/20071030071428/http://www.bet.com/JenniferDanielsBlogFroggiesVoodoo.htm) as if I wrote it just last month or something. If you can track down an archived piece I wrote years ago, certainly you can track down when it was written. It really sucks, because I've had so many people credit me w/the changes Disney made, and so many more people slam me for the same reason. As far as I'm concerned, I didn't have anything to do with it one way or the other, and I don't want kudos for it any more than I want blame.  :-[
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 27, 2009, 05:18:25 pm
Hmmmm, you wrote an article about it for a relatively high profile publication (BET has more mainstream name recognition than Ozone, for example) and now you're upset that people actually noticed what you wrote? 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 27, 2009, 05:41:37 pm
No. I'm pissed off that people are using an outdated piece, ignoring the fact that all of my criticisms wound up being changed. The piece is completely obsolete! The only reason why this piece keeps getting dragged from Wayback Machine hell is 1) to highlight how ungrateful, ignorant and racist black people are (har har, the prince isn't even white), and 2) show how non-racist white people are, as opposed to racist, ignorant and ungrateful black women like me.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 27, 2009, 10:34:40 pm
No. I'm pissed off that people are using an outdated piece, ignoring the fact that all of my criticisms wound up being changed. The piece is completely obsolete! The only reason why this piece keeps getting dragged from Wayback Machine hell is 1) to highlight how ungrateful, ignorant and racist black people are (har har, the prince isn't even white), and 2) show how non-racist white people are, as opposed to racist, ignorant and ungrateful black women like me.

When can we expect a response?

Better yet, a group of Black women( yourself included) discussing the film now that its been released.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 27, 2009, 11:44:28 pm
A response to what? The film is bombing. Nobody gives a sh*t about this film except a bunch of BAWWWWWWing black women with deep pockets and memories of yellow beach towels around their heads as children. The only way I'd watch this film is if I had a choice b/t that and reading Black Panther.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 28, 2009, 03:08:06 am
I noticed they arent pushing it as hard on television either. Ah forget this is a total joke. f*ck disney, f*ck abc just f*ck entertainment medium as a whole. LOL
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2009, 05:21:44 am
I've seen quite a few commercials for it over this weekend, so there is some advertising for it. Disney hasn't totally abandoned the film. But looking back at Jenn's piece, I can definitely see how much the film, despite its flaws, is an improvement over what they originally envisioned. Though I do wish they had got a different person than Randy Newman to do the music. The animation was good, and I wish the music really got more of an authentic feel of New Orleans.

I wonder if there is any data for the audience for the people who have seen this film. I'm assuming that black women are the base of support. And maybe that base has tapped out and the women are not going back for seconds. The more successful Tyler Perry films, who I'm assuming also have a solid black female base, make about the same as P & F have, of course the TP films are made much cheaper and can reap a profit. So, has the black support maxed out? Or are there segments turned off by the P & F, same as TP films and this film just isn't going to get those dollars.  P & F is definitely disappointing when you see that Sherlock Holmes made more in one weekend than it has in its entire run so far, and Alvin and the Chipmunks is only about 13 million off from P & F, and its only in the first week.

From a totally non-scientific standpoint, I saw black grandmothers, mothers, and daughters attending the film. Also, some black men with their families. But didn't see any black males solo, except for myself. There were also several white families. I went in the daytime so there wasn't a lot of people, but I wonder what the audience is like across the country.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 28, 2009, 06:51:34 am
You guys do realize that the film hasnt even been released in the U.K. yet? 

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princessandthefrog.htm (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princessandthefrog.htm)

63 million is certainly underperforming by Pixar standards, but they havent released this film world wide yet.

It doesnt even come out in the U.K. til February 2010. By the time this movie is in full world wide release it will have made a profit.

It will then proceed to clean up in DVD sales and rentals.

Its not going to be as successful as say, Aladdin; thats clear. But it will end up being a below the radar moneymaker in the vein of Brother Bear.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 28, 2009, 07:29:08 am
You guys do realize that the film hasnt even been released in the U.K. yet? 

[url]http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princessandthefrog.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=princessandthefrog.htm[/url])

63 million is certainly underperforming by Pixar standards, but they havent released this film world wide yet.

It doesnt even come out in the U.K. til February 2010. By the time this movie is in full world wide release it will have made a profit.

It will then proceed to clean up in DVD sales and rentals.





Thank you.  Will someone please leave the beancounting to professional beancounters?

I'm definetly picking up this showpiece provided that the DVD is packed with lots and lots and lots of extra material!(http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 28, 2009, 08:06:33 am

From a totally non-scientific standpoint, I saw black grandmothers, mothers, and daughters attending the film. Also, some black men with their families. But didn't see any black males solo, except for myself. There were also several white families. I went in the daytime so there wasn't a lot of people, but I wonder what the audience is like across the country.



My best friend, sister, and I were like one of the few black people there. There were a few I've noticed, but few compared to white people who was there. I noticed there were quite a good number of couples of various ages and people in their 20s watching the film. There were a lot of children, but I do think there was more couples and friends of age 20 there.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 08:14:38 am
The more successful Tyler Perry films, who I'm assuming also have a solid black female base, make about the same as P & F have


Yes, but those films aren't G-rated, and they aren't Disney. There are a lot of apologists who choose to remain pissed off at the people who are pointing out Disney's massive fail, rather than being mad at the white man Disney for botching this entire thing from jump. "Oh, it's not released in the UK yet. Oh, it'll make it up in the DVD. Oh, it'll get a boost over the holidays. Oh, it's competing with Avatar/Alvin/my mom's sex tape/your mom's sex tape. Oh, the sky is blue. Oh, the grass is green." Folks, this is a film that has been promoted for two years...by Disney...and was released over Christmas holiday, when children are out of school and can go to the movies any day of the week (although the same can't be said of their parents). This is a film that came in EIGHTH PLACE on Christmas Day. This is a film that hasn't made back its production budget. This is a film that actually did WORSE this week than last, going from #2 to #7. This is a film that may very well drop out of the top 10 next week. This is a film whose grand total this week was $8.3m. Give it the f*ck up, and start being mad at the RIGHT people for a change.

Quote
So, has the black support maxed out?


It's not that; it's that the non-black support never existed in the first place.  

Quote
Alvin and the Chipmunks is only about 13 million off from P & F, and its only in the first week.


Even worse, it only took five days to beat the crap out of Tiana and friends:

Quote
The major choice for families, Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Squeakquel, scurried to an estimated $50.2 million on around 5,500 screens at 3,700 sites. In its first five days, it's made $77.1 million, while the preceding Alvin and the Chipmunks had $49.4 million by its fifth day. The first Alvin went on to gross a massive $217.3 million, and evidently was pleasing enough for many to opt for a second go-around, which was advertised on the basis of offering more Chipmunk antics with the addition of a female group. Considering that the sequels to Garfield, Stuart Little and Scooby-Doo couldn't even match their predecessors' openings, The Squeakquel's number is extra impressive. Distributor 20th Century Fox's research indicated that 70 percent of the audience was parents and their children, while 60 percent was female. ([url]http://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2633&p=.htm[/url])


I mean, seriously. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE? You mean to tell me that Disney got destroyed by RODENTS?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 28, 2009, 08:57:21 am
I believe the turnout for Princess & The Frog has more to do with a certain segment [read: The people who didn't vote for Obama and/or sour grapes] of Americans who absolutely refuse to see one of thier mythical hallmarks changed than the success of the movie.

The low attendance in the states doesn't change the quality of the product; The Princess & The Frog is still a very good movie.

I appreciate this movie because there are a lot of ideas (some from me) that came right off this forum into the film.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 09:06:08 am
I believe the turnout for Princess & The Frog has more to do with a certain segment [read: The people who didn't vote for Obama and/or sour grapes] of Americans who absolutely refuse to see one of thier mythical hallmarks changed than the success of the movie.

That still doesn't account for everybody else. Obama WON the presidency. Therefore, the majority of Americans voted for him. You've got it backwards. P&F is bombing because a certain segment [read: adult black women with color complexes sh*tty childhood memories] of Americans who absolutely believe that life begins and ends with black princesses than the success (or lack of it) of the movie.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 28, 2009, 09:20:28 am
I believe the turnout for Princess & The Frog has more to do with a certain segment [read: The people who didn't vote for Obama and/or sour grapes] of Americans who absolutely refuse to see one of thier mythical hallmarks changed than the success of the movie.

That still doesn't account for everybody else. Obama WON the presidency. Therefore, the majority of Americans voted for him. You've got it backwards. P&F is bombing because a certain segment [read: adult black women with color complexes sh*tty childhood memories] of Americans who absolutely believe that life begins and ends with black princesses than the success (or lack of it) of the movie.


Right, Mr. Obama won the presidency
---by a very narrow margin.
That remainding segment of people can filter through every aspect of daily American life which includes recreational activities such as 'going to movies'.  Do you think perhaps that if the story to 'The Princess & The Frog' was told by the early working title, "The Frog Princess", it would achieve a higher attendance?


Either way, I still liked the movie. ;D
Liked it so much, I saw it 3 times! :)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 09:36:48 am
Right, Mr. Obama won the presidency
---by a very narrow margin.

Are you DAFT? Obama received 365 electoral votes, McCain 173. The popular vote difference was about 10 million. I was attending school in Tallahassee during the 2000 election - my very first vote - and I know what a very narrow margin is. How DARE you use the 2000 debacle to bolster your bullsh*t argument.

Quote
That remainding segment of people can filter through every aspect of daily American life which includes recreational activities such as 'going to movies'.  Do you think perhaps that if the story to 'The Princess & The Frog' was told by the early working title, "The Frog Princess", it would achieve a higher attendance?

Do black people ever NOT make excuses when it comes to white people f*cking us over?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 28, 2009, 09:44:45 am
Right, Mr. Obama won the presidency
---by a very narrow margin.

Are you DAFT?  How DARE you use the 2000 debacle to bolster your bullsh*t argument.



Careful...   your ass is showing.


I didn't understand 100% of your last remarks, but as I've said before,   I believe a certain segment of people will not see the movie just because   <fill-in any number of obligatory petty misunderstanding here> .

I didn't have any preconcieve notions coming into this movie other than "I knew it would be good".
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 10:18:39 am
Careful...   your ass is showing.

Like I'm going to take the advice of a Disney fantard like you. Your film is tanking, and Disney has nobody to blame but THEMSELVES.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 10:41:28 am
Taken from Box Office Mojo, and shamelessly stolen from (shudder) What About Our Daughters:

Quote
From Box Office Mojo
Pochohontas
Domestic: $141,579,773 40.9%
+ Foreign: $204,500,000 59.1%
= Worldwide: $346,079,773

The Little Mermaid
Domestic: $111,543,479 52.8%
+ Foreign: $99,800,000 47.2%
= Worldwide: $211,343,479

Mulan
Domestic: $120,620,254 39.6%
+ Foreign: $183,700,000 60.4%
= Worldwide: $304,320,254

Beauty and the Beast
Domestic: $171,350,553 45.4%
+ Foreign: $206,000,000 54.6%
= Worldwide: $377,350,553

The Lion King
Domestic: $328,541,776 41.9%
+ Foreign: $455,300,000 58.1%
= Worldwide: $783,841,776

Finding Nemo
Domestic: $339,714,978 39.3%
+ Foreign: $524,911,000 60.7%
= Worldwide: $864,625,978

Keep in mind, however, that these numbers are NOT adjusted for inflation, which makes it even worse. Anybody who thinks this movie is going to hit even 1/8th of these numbers - inflation or not - is seriously fooling themselves. Time to hold Disney accountable.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2009, 11:11:58 am
Battle, you claimed not to have any preconceived notions about this film, other than it would be good. Well that's a pretty big preconception. Perhaps the biggest preconception you can make about any film. I might be beancounting, but I think the numbers show this film is in some trouble. It hasn't opened in the UK, but I wonder with the noted lack of support for films with non-Will Smith black leads around the world, how this film is going to fare in foreign markets, particularly if it isn't a runaway hit here. If it was gangbusters here, I think the buzz might convince reluctant foreign audiences to give it a try despite the black lead. Now, it remains to be seen how well the film will do. I think Disney will recoup a lot of its money back, but the film's anemic performance will make them leery of basing animated films on black characters again.

I can't just say the soft white support is coming from the tea baggers. Exactly how large is the tea bag movement anyway? I think there might be a more general white disinterest in an animated film with a black lead, still a reluctance for parents to have their white children have black role models to aspire. Even though I think Disney was very careful in trying to appeal to white sensibilities with this film. Segregation was never mentioned, it was implied, if you knew something about history. If you didn't, you might not notice Tiana and Eudora sitting at the back of the bus. Or that all the blacks live together and in more humble conditions than the whites. Also, Tiana's 'background', which two white real estate guys mentioned as an impediment, could just as easily refer to class as race. Also, the removal of a positive black male figure early on. The racially ambigious prince. The avoidance of developing a positive black-black relationship. Tiana's avowed hard work ethic. Even though hard work is something to be praised, I never noticed it being promoted so loudly except from Tiana, to hammer home the message, and  the implication that black folks don't work hard and need that message over and over again. Most Disney princesses didn't do any work, or tried to get out of it (like Cinderella), and it wasn't a big deal. But Tiana had to be the good darky that adhered perhaps to the Tuskegee method. Keeping Tiana a frog for a majority of the film. Don't get me wrong, I actually liked the film, but I've got to keep it real.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 11:24:20 am
The worst part is that I lurrrrve froggies! If I ever see this film, it will be because of that. I would love to have a stuffed Tiana and Naveen, but then people will think I fell for this PRAISE WHITE JESUS WE GOT US UH BUH-LACK PRINCESS bullsh*t.

Honestly, I think this film tanked because you can't pat your ass over and over about the first black princess, and then make her a frog. You just can't. If you're going to treat this film like any other, you can't make a big deal about the princess. If you're not, then you need to respect and understand the implications of this kind of thing and do your BEST to make a movie deserving of such a high honor. Disney should have thrown their hearts souls and ankles (to quote Bullhorn from Black Dynamite) into this movie. Instead, they picked a fairy tale that few people have heard about, made the lead girl black (because she's no princess), and then sat back and received two years of black female fellatio. It was only until a couple of months before the premiere that we learned that Tiana was really a frog. Disney pulled a bait-and-switch. For that, they DESERVE to suffer.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 28, 2009, 11:24:39 am
Not for nothing, but the most militant HEFFERS here could have written the film and it wouldn't be doing any better than it is doing now.

A couple of points:

It really isn't fair to compare CGI movies to line drawn movies at this stage of the game. CGI has been kicking line-drawn's ass since Toy Story.  Disney ITSELF hasn't had a line drawn honest to goodness linedrawn hit since Tarzan in 1999.

There's a REASON Disney had all but shuttered its line-drawn department.  

The kids CLEARLY prefer CGI now: Three out of the last five out Disney's hand-drawn Animated films (Fantasia 2000, Emperor's New Groove and Atlantis: The Lost Empire) ALL underperformed at the box office. Only Lilo and Stich and Brother Bear did well at the theaters.

Disney's cultural insentitivity isn't nearly the issue here.

Unless you think it was racism that somehow led Disney to decide to make the film line drawn.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 11:26:47 am
Again, none of those films had two years worth of promotion, a sh*tload of hype, and the potential to become a history-making event.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 28, 2009, 11:42:00 am
I actually was about to weigh on on the CG vs. traditional line issue; which is as big a deal in the minds of animation heads as race is for folks around these parts.

When judging box office performance you have to consider all the factors.  Race;  animation style; whether it's a an original property or a sequel;  whether it is a "girl" movie or has broader appeal to girls and boys.  The Alvin movie is a property known to two or more generations, is a sequel to a hit, and appeals to boys and girls. 

Race can't be the sole factor;  consider the large sales of merchandise well ahead of the release of the movie.  While the idea of a black princess may not appeal to all white folks, it certain appeals to a lot of them. 

I haven't seen the movie yet...now that things are slowing down I hope to catch it this week.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 28, 2009, 12:05:17 pm
Again, none of those films had two years worth of promotion, a sh*tload of hype, and the potential to become a history-making event.

Aside from general marketing, none of those issues mean anything to the target audience (6-8 year olds, mainly girls).

I dont see Tianas only being human for like fifteen minutes of screen time being a deal breaker for the general audience.

If your kid wants to see Alvin and the Chipmunks because it is CGI and they run around and break sh*t, thats what you are going to end up seeing.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on December 28, 2009, 01:47:54 pm
Aside from general marketing, none of those issues mean anything to the target audience (6-8 year olds, mainly girls).

I dont see Tianas only being human for like fifteen minutes of screen time being a deal breaker for the general audience.

If your kid wants to see Alvin and the Chipmunks because it is CGI and they run around and break sh*t, thats what you are going to end up seeing.


The problem is and it has been pointed out more than once is that the movie was advertised for over 2 years and it is underperforming. The "line-drawn" movies of old didnt have a 2 year head start of "preparation". These films still managed to reach at least respectable numbers. To add using the DVD excuse or overseas doesnt cut it either. It is the goal and expected to exceed money spent at the box office and make more through DVD not hope DVDs will make a difference. Matter of fact it is on the Wii and DS and not on PS3 nor Xbox 360 man it doesnt look good at all.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: MKG on December 28, 2009, 01:49:14 pm
The movie flopped! YES! There is a god after all. Maybe. ;)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 28, 2009, 02:54:56 pm
The movie has been in wide release for a month.

A. MONTH. 

This film will run until May 2010 or thereabouts.

It's way to early to call it a flop.

I also love how Disney's decade long line drawn animation slump is not supposed to count in this particular case for some reason.

Especally when from Disney's standpoint seeing if there was still a market for traditional line drawn animation was half of the point of doing this film in the first place.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 28, 2009, 03:02:53 pm
<<The problem is and it has been pointed out more than once is that the movie was advertised for over 2 years and it is underperforming.>>

No, the movie wasn't advertised for 2 yrs.  (If it was, that would have killed it.)

There has been a buzz for 2 years, but probably not among the target audience.

Outside of this place, I didn't see any word about the movie until a month or two before the release, and I watch Disney channels often.  If anything, I think Disney underadvertised the show to its target audience.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on December 28, 2009, 03:34:16 pm
A response to what? The film is bombing. Nobody gives a sh*t about this film except a bunch of BAWWWWWWing black women with deep pockets and memories of yellow beach towels around their heads as children. The only way I'd watch this film is if I had a choice b/t that and reading Black Panther.

Your comments on the next 2 pages after this prove otherwise.

I haven't heard anything substantive about the failure/potential failure of this film in the least, much less a critical analysis of why its happening.

The most I've seen about THE PRINCESS AND THE FROG was the standard shot of Black women with their daughters shouting " I've been waiting my WHOLE life for this". Of course this sentiment was expressed BEFORE they even saw the film while on the line outside.


I think the idea of a Black Princess is so powerful in the minds of some Black women that anything that was put on the screen would be great in their eyes.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 04:26:45 pm
I dont see Tianas only being human for like fifteen minutes of screen time being a deal breaker for the general audience.

Vic, you can't be serious. That would be like announcing that Storm has a huge role in the upcoming Power arc and then...whoops, never mind. My point is that you can't brag about the first black princess and then make her a FROG. If anything, that's the reason why this film is sinking. I'm sure just as many black women were upset about that as not. Throw in a non-black prince and what seems to be a rather dull storyline, and you have...well, this. Had Disney been honest about this from jump, I think that could've helped a lot.

Quote
It's way to early to call it a flop.

If Tiana was white, we'd call this what it is. Keep clinging to that raft if you want to, but the film is a flop.

Quote
I also love how Disney's decade long line drawn animation slump is not supposed to count in this particular case for some reason.

That's because it's another pathetic excuse. The fact that this was going back to 2D was its biggest selling point and you know it.

I haven't heard anything substantive about the failure/potential failure of this film in the least, much less a critical analysis of why its happening.

Do you really think the press is going to address this? If they address why this film is - ahem - underperforming (giggleSNORT), then they have to ask why this is happening. Nobody wants to even touch that.

No, the movie wasn't advertised for 2 yrs.  (If it was, that would have killed it.)

There has been a buzz for 2 years, but probably not among the target audience.

Okay, fine. But the first trailer I can find for this film was seven months ago. Now explain that away.

*edit* I've criticized this film more than enough. Since I'm more baffled by all this than happy, and I'm tired asking why is this movie bombing, I'll put my money where my mouth is and catch the 7:10 show. But dammit, I'll be Twittering the whole time.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 28, 2009, 05:15:46 pm
I think the 2D v. CGI arguement is an important one. Even though the 2D thing was a big selling point for Disney, who exactly was that supposed to impress? Older people perhaps, but maybe their kids aren't all that impressed by 2D and prefer CGI animation, which has been dominate for going on almost 20 years now. Perhaps, the 2D classic thing actually hurt the film, because it made it look dated. Plus, I don't the music and the script could make up for that.

I think turning the princess into a frog was a neat way for Disney to actually have a black 'princess' and not at the same time, to perhaps make it easier for non-black audiences to get used to the idea. Like RH said, I don't believe it is all about race. But I do believe race was a factor, and I have to wonder if white audiences would find it hard to identify with Tiana, and if that is also not decreasing the turnout. I also think the release date hurt the film, though I don't think that's much of an issue now that its been out for several weeks. People can find it if they want to, and the reviews for it have been pretty good, almost across the board.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 07:11:17 pm
All of this discussion, and you P&F supporters mentioned the most important fact: it SUCKS. I missed the first half of a perfectly good football game for this. Once again, somebody owes me $9.50, and I don't care whose mama has to go on the ho stroll to get it. Bitch betta have my money.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 28, 2009, 08:34:26 pm
I think the 2D v. CGI arguement is an important one. Even though the 2D thing was a big selling point for Disney, who exactly was that supposed to impress? Older people perhaps, but maybe their kids aren't all that impressed by 2D and prefer CGI animation, which has been dominate for going on almost 20 years now. Perhaps, the 2D classic thing actually hurt the film, because it made it look dated. Plus, I don't the music and the script could make up for that.

I think turning the princess into a frog was a neat way for Disney to actually have a black 'princess' and not at the same time, to perhaps make it easier for non-black audiences to get used to the idea. Like RH said, I don't believe it is all about race. But I do believe race was a factor, and I have to wonder if white audiences would find it hard to identify with Tiana, and if that is also not decreasing the turnout. I also think the release date hurt the film, though I don't think that's much of an issue now that its been out for several weeks. People can find it if they want to, and the reviews for it have been pretty good, almost across the board.

It was an appeal to the Animation heads. Its only a selling point to them. NO ONE ELSE CARES.

E.J., there are two factions in the Disney Animation studios (3 if you count the Pixar guys who both in house factions want to outdo). The Traditionalists and the CGI-ers. The Traditionalists had spent the entire 80's trying vainly to recaptue their former glory.

In the 90's they get a second heyday until Toy Story comes out and changes the game. The aughts are spent with the two factions sort of competing.

That, as I mentioned before, does not work out too well for them.

PATF is as much about the traditionalists saying "we still got it" as it is about anything else.

Just the same way that comics are written for the fanboy of 10+ years standing,  making PATF line-drawn was meant to appeal to the die-hards, the folks who buy the animation cels and art books (I am not one of them but I know they exist).

Having the first Black Princess, doing another musical, having talking animals and Randy Newman songs are supposed to bring in everybody else.

@Jenn: So you ended up hating a movie that you decided to hate back in '07?

I'm shocked, shocked I say! ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 08:43:18 pm
One of the huge problems I think (with the movie, not the reception) was the music. Absolutely bare-ass minimum effort. One song every what...seven minutes? No time to even get in the storyline because they're always singing. Worst of all, only Tiana sings w/a voice you can understand! Having the others sing in those god-awful N'awlins accents (or an even worst Brown Person accent the prince was singing in) was a bad idea. Oh, and speaking of which: did you know this movie is in New Orleans? Gumbo! Po' boys! Jazz! Lots of jazz! Because we're in NEW ORRRRRLEANS! You know, the home of gumbo and jazz?

And another thing: that voodoo sh*t was MAD offensive. Voodoo isn't a bunch of f*cking magic tricks! I can't believe people are letting that slide. Besides, New Orleans is, was, and will always be a heavily Catholic city. But let's throw all that out (even though Mardi Gras is the celebration before Lent), and make it all voodoo! Because that's what you get in NEW ORRRRRLEANS, like like gumbo and jazz music and Mardi Gras kings for five years in a row WHICH ISN'T EVEN POSSIBLE YOU DISNEY IDIOTS. Besides, some of the younger kids were actually a little scared. One kid started crying because the ending (w/Dr. Facilier) was so scary. And his/her stupid ass mama is all "Be quiet! It's just a movie!" God, I could've smacked her ass. Poor baby.

(May I say that I loved Keith David. He is without question one of the greatest Disney villains of all time - maybe a little TOO villainy. What a waste!)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 28, 2009, 10:12:38 pm
I was talking a couple of black moms tonight, and they were saying how much they loved the film - and these are not desparate WAOD women, these are smart, sensible women who not just signing on for something for symbolism's sake. 

Anyway, I look forward to seeing it myself.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 28, 2009, 10:15:34 pm
I was talking a couple of black moms tonight, and they were saying how much they loved the film - and these are not desparate WAOD women, these are smart, sensible women who not just signing on for something for symbolism's sake.  

Then I'll do my best not to mock the ever-loving sh*t out of them.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

*snicker* (Okay, now I'm just f*ckin' with y'all. Back on topic.)

@Jenn: So you ended up hating a movie that you decided to hate back in '07?

I'm shocked, shocked I say! ;D

So it's MY fault that it's a weak script (that doesn't make a bit of sense), crappy music and wasted voice talent? Because this is one of the few films I recall that didn't have different people to sing the songs than the actors. Tiana (who isn't very likable) has boring songs, while Keith's song is the only high note. But like Be Prepared from The Lion King (my favorite from that song), it's a bit dark. Unfortunately, it only works onscreen w/the animation; without it, it falls flat. And the other songs are so badly accented that they're hard to really sing along to. The "standout" was probably supposed to be Mama Odie's song; Jenifer should've sang in a regular tone, like Anika does, and then it may have worked. MO's voice RUINS that song! There's a reason why nearly every review says 'this isn't a classic, but...' 'no memorable songs, but...' 'not one of Disney's best, but..." Yeah, but you don't want to get fired and accused of racism. Got it.

Slightly O/T, it's weird that I don't think as kids that we were afraid of Scar. Maybe that's because he was a lion. But no sh*t, Dr. Facilier is bit...much. I'll give Disney a lot of credit - they make one hell of villain!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on December 28, 2009, 10:37:22 pm
I think the 2D v. CGI arguement is an important one. Even though the 2D thing was a big selling point for Disney, who exactly was that supposed to impress? Older people perhaps, but maybe their kids aren't all that impressed by 2D and prefer CGI animation, which has been dominate for going on almost 20 years now. Perhaps, the 2D classic thing actually hurt the film, because it made it look dated. Plus, I don't the music and the script could make up for that.

That is a real pity if it's true. I've seen trailers of some really beautiful 2D films from Europe. The last animated Asterix film was classic. So was this gorgeous trailer for a film called Kerity, la maison des contes. I think it's a better film for little kids than Toy Story which has some adolescent humor. Finally, there was an awesome promo for this illustrated book of Siegfried.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 29, 2009, 04:40:28 am
2D vs 3D style animation--sorry that's not a really good excuse. 

Most cartoons are still 2D line art and sell well; Japanese animation is mostly 2D (or a mix) and when it comes to this country it sells well.  Marvel and DC continue to sell and make money (as do other studios) with Direct to Video 2D line art.

The 3D stories that make it big, make it big because of the story.  People (the general public, not the people who care about CGI) didn't walked out of Up or The Incredibles and say, "you have to see this, the CGI was awsome.". They said "the story was great; stuff for kids and adults.".

But on the other hand, this movie doesn't have to be a blockbuster to be sucessful.  This isn't a "blockbuster or bust" senerio.  All it has to do is earn more than it cost and sell a lot merchandise.  If it does those 2 things; it isn't a flop.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on December 29, 2009, 04:55:37 am
I think the 2D v. CGI arguement is an important one. Even though the 2D thing was a big selling point for Disney, who exactly was that supposed to impress? Older people perhaps, but maybe their kids aren't all that impressed by 2D and prefer CGI animation, which has been dominate for going on almost 20 years now. Perhaps, the 2D classic thing actually hurt the film, because it made it look dated. Plus, I don't the music and the script could make up for that.

That is a real pity if it's true. I've seen trailers of some really beautiful 2D films from Europe. The last animated Asterix film was classic. So was this gorgeous trailer for a film called Kerity, la maison des contes. I think it's a better film for little kids than Toy Story which has some adolescent humor. Finally, there was an awesome promo for this illustrated book of Siegfried.


That's just speculation on my part. I mean P & F had vibrant colors and was a delight to watch. It looked fresh and the animation was on point. But I have to wonder if that style isn't seen as old by today's kids who were reared on CGI stuff. Unless its anime of course. And perhaps Disney's marketers were hoping that the 2D stuff would inspire the parents to get the kids out, but it just didn't happen, or isn't happening, the way they were hoping for.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 29, 2009, 08:39:16 am
But on the other hand, this movie doesn't have to be a blockbuster to be sucessful.  This isn't a "blockbuster or bust" senerio.  All it has to do is earn more than it cost and sell a lot merchandise.  If it does those 2 things; it isn't a flop.

NOW I know what bothers me! This film was never about black princesses or little black girls feeling pretty. It's that it's a 90-minute commercial to sell products to black women. This is why we got material that The Lion King and The Little Mermaid threw away. Think about it: how come we had Tiana products selling out before the movie ever even premiered? Because Disney tapped into the angst of black women, that's why! God KNOWS that well will never run dry.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on December 29, 2009, 08:47:54 am
All of this discussion, and you P&F supporters mentioned the most important fact: it SUCKS. I missed the first half of a perfectly good football game for this. Once again, somebody owes me $9.50, and I don't care whose mama has to go on the ho stroll to get it. Bitch betta have my money.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA...that's hilarious!!!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on December 29, 2009, 08:49:02 am
90 minute commercial--  That's true of a lot of movies aimed at kids--the money is in the licensing, more than the movie itself.  (Same with TV cartoons.)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 29, 2009, 08:53:21 am

@Jenn: So you ended up hating a movie that you decided to hate back in '07?

I'm shocked, shocked I say! ;D

Haha! This made me laugh.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 29, 2009, 09:01:58 am
90 minute commercial--  That's true of a lot of movies aimed at kids--the money is in the licensing, more than the movie itself.  (Same with TV cartoons.)

But do those come from companies who have slighted your race for over 60 years? Disney helped to create the feeling that black girls (who become black women) aren't as pretty as the rest, and now they're profiting from it. I mean, if I broke into your house, tied your whole family up, and then took off with all your loot, would you buy a security system from me, knowing MY actions that destroyed your sense of security?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 29, 2009, 04:28:56 pm
(http://s2.tinypic.com/1zdww08_th.jpg) Huh?  What's this? Nope. No 'Inglorious Basterds' ...nor 'Avatar'! ;D
In the December 21, 2009 issue of TIME magazines' 'The Best Of 2009' picks the top 10 movies:

1. The Princess And The Frog
2. Up
3. Fantastic Mr. Fox
4. The Hurt Locker
5. Up In The Air
6. The White Ribbon
7. A Single Man
8. Of Time And The City
9. District 9
10. Thirst

Box office numbers be damned!  :)
Apparently it was a great year for animation. The top three picks were different techniques of the art form, traditionally hand-drawn, computer-generated imagery and stop-motion. 
If these titles are submitted into the Oscars, it'll be interesting which one will claim 'best animated feature'.   
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on December 29, 2009, 05:19:37 pm
But on the other hand, this movie doesn't have to be a blockbuster to be sucessful.  This isn't a "blockbuster or bust" senerio.  All it has to do is earn more than it cost and sell a lot merchandise.  If it does those 2 things; it isn't a flop.

NOW I know what bothers me! This film was never about black princesses or little black girls feeling pretty. It's that it's a 90-minute commercial to sell products to black women. This is why we got material that The Lion King and The Little Mermaid threw away. Think about it: how come we had Tiana products selling out before the movie ever even premiered? Because Disney tapped into the angst of black women, that's why! God KNOWS that well will never run dry.
Disney would never make this movie depending solely on the black audience. Not enough money in it.  This movie was targeted for the broadest audience, and that's who they are attracting.  Maybe not in the numbers they wanted, but the appeal of this movie is not just black.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 29, 2009, 07:22:57 pm
I saw it today.

Disney tries to have something for everyone in this movie and the results are mixed.

You 've got the movie its starts out as featuring Tiana's plucky striver and the 70's era Disney talking animal romp it turns into. The movie about the striver has more of an air of menlancoly to it than your usual screwball comedy so Disney's bailing on human Tiana and segregated 1920's New Orleans was probably an act of self preservation on its part. Hell, Spielberg had to use mice to tell the story of Jewish immigration.

Its a visually georgeous film but the songs aren't as good as in past works. I liked "Almost There" and "Friends On The Other Side" The rest of the songs even "Dig A Little Deeper"are pleasant but not memorable. It is a fun mix of music, however. The problem with Randy Newman is everything he writes sounds like a Randy Newman song. So Ray's Zydeco number sounds like Randy Newman doing Zydeco. It like listening to Ry Cooder dp Cuban music. It STLL sounds like Ry Cooder no matter what. But you don't look to Disney for cultual accuracy.

The main characters Tiana, Naveen and Louis are all well designed and likeable. Now that I've heard Ms. Rose sing I'm pissed I didn't plunk down for Dreamgirls at the Apollo when I had the chance.  Mama Odie is borderline offensive in a historical context, less so in the Fairy Godmother Context.

Kieth David is the bizness in this. Dr. Faciler is one of the best Disney bad guys ever, edging out Jafar and Hades who don't really sing. Scar sings but Dr. Faciler is more menacing. Maybe too much so.   

This is nowhere near as good as Disney's 90's claasics like Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast and Lion King. It IS however is as good as Hercules (but with better music).
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 29, 2009, 07:29:59 pm
I'm mad, Vic. No long for my boy, Ray?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on December 29, 2009, 07:57:21 pm
I'm mad, Vic. No long for my boy, Ray?

I Knew I forgot to mention something. ;D

Ray's the most likable character in the movie and I was happier when he got his happy ending than when T and N got thiers. Ma Belle Evangeline is a pretty song to be sure but its fading from my mind even as I type this.

P.S: I wonder if anybody is going to make anything out out the fact that everybody but the White folk get to sing in this. ;D

P.P.S: is it me or do all Ne-Yo's songs other than So Sick (which is great-but depressing as f*ck) sound the same?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 30, 2009, 06:43:26 am
The main characters Tiana, Naveen and Louis are all well designed and likeable. Now that I've heard Ms. Rose sing I'm pissed I didn't plunk down for Dreamgirls at the Apollo when I had the chance.  Mama Odie is borderline offensive in a historical context, less so in the Fairy Godmother Context.

Kieth David is the bizness in this. Dr. Faciler is one of the best Disney bad guys ever, edging out Jafar and Hades who don't really sing. Scar sings but Dr. Faciler is more menacing. Maybe too much so.  



Yeah, Dr. Facilier's cool, huh? ;D

Mr. David (voice) and Mr. Smith (supervising animator) gave this particular Disney bad guy  an uncanny ability to peer into your soul, tell ya about yourself, pull out your inner most vulnerabilities and crush them. ;D
He's like the pre-drug dealer, the pre-pimp and pre-gangster.  Dr. Facilier doesn't have as much power as Hades or even Jafar but he's very manipulative so he's right there with Malificent.

Ill have to disagree with you about Mama Odie.  Have you ever been down south?
If youve ever met a 80+ year old southern Black woman, chances are, you will see a Mama Odie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on December 30, 2009, 06:53:53 am
Still haven't seen it yet, but I kinda want to now just to see the fuss about Dr. Faciler. From the sounds of it, he's so good (or rather bad) he's at least in the top 3 of Disney villains.  :o

So one of the most recognizable Disney villains, now, is Dr. Faciler, who happens to be black. That's great and all, but could we someday get a black prince that's just as successful as a hero from Disney?

Yeah, I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 30, 2009, 12:24:14 pm
Have you ever been down south?
If youve ever met a 80+ year old southern Black woman, chances are, you will see a Mama Odie.

Some of us were born and raised down here, you know. 6th generation Texan on my mother's side, so stop saying stupid sh*t (for once).
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 30, 2009, 12:38:08 pm
Have you ever been down south?
If youve ever met a 80+ year old southern Black woman, chances are, you will see a Mama Odie.


Some of us were born and raised down here, you know. 6th generation Texan on my mother's side, so stop saying stupid sh*t (for once).




You're just jealous 'cause my favorite movie this year is kickin' ass! (http://i6.tinypic.com/eq42tv.jpg)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 30, 2009, 12:55:41 pm
In WHAT? Dear God, put it back in your pants already.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on December 30, 2009, 01:16:09 pm
In WHAT? Dear God, put it back in your pants already.



Must've said somethin' pretty wild to get 'er all riled up like that, right Shadow Man?

(http://i38.tinypic.com/9acv15.jpg)
...right!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on December 30, 2009, 01:21:30 pm
Uh, right. Cuz you know how us girrrrrrls can be.  ::)

Kid, how old are you?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: James72 on December 31, 2009, 08:45:23 pm
The Princess and the Frog was a good film.  

My main concern was will there be anything in it that was "embarrassing". Fortunately there was none of those moments.

I saw The Princess and The Frog at a screening prior to its release and then I went to support it with my dollars. I really enjoyed it.  I liked the fact that they showed Tiana as a hard worker, someone who was independent. The filmmakers, showed how she was positively influenced by her father and to make her dreams happen opposed to her dreams manifesting through magic.  

Tianas human friend, Charlotte was very entertaining. The writers/animators went to extremes, good ones, to show her hyper personality. People will argue, how come they did not have Tiana as animated, well I think if they did, Tiana as the lead character would have become a joke. Not the character you would sympathize for.  

Prince Naveens character was more explored when he was transformed into the frog. His arrogance and naivete was well explored in his regards to women.  

I wish there was some more insight into the antagonist Dr. Facillier. I loved the design and voice acting, as well as the evil spirits, that at times did his bidding. There was enough to get he was the bad guy and ultimately what he was out to get, but it was such an intriguing character, and I wanted more. There was more mystery about him, which in itself is intriguing but I wanted a bit more.  

My only complaint and/or constructive criticism was that I wish we could have seen more of Tiana as a human. You dont get lost and forget the human in the film by no means, but I would rather have seen more of her as a human than a frog.  When  I saw the movie  everyone laughed at the jokes, got the message and enjoyed the songs. In fact, some were clapping along to the songs, and the kids that were their loved it. At least they were enthusiastic.  

I have heard some complaints about there not being anything new, but this is a Disney movie. Their formula is their formula. That has not changed since Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs. When Disney altered their formula with Atlantis, no one went to see it. Their formula is, what it is.  If we are looking for something else we have to put forth our own visions, because each studio has their formula. Warner Bros has more shoot em up style, adult themed movies, Paramount more action/adventure family style movies. That is their formulas and they work within their foundation.  I expect the same from Disney.

Hopefully, by the end of it's run, and maybe by the middle/end of January the film will have made it's money back.  It seems the other merchandising has done well.

Was The Princess and The Frog a great film?  Time will tell, but to me it was good and entertaining in their Disney way.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on December 31, 2009, 10:21:31 pm
In WHAT? Dear God, put it back in your pants already.



Must've said somethin' pretty wild to get 'er all riled up like that, right Shadow Man?

([url]http://i38.tinypic.com/9acv15.jpg[/url])
...right!


LOL!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on January 05, 2010, 08:24:59 am
Well, is it at all possible this could be turned into a weekly cartoon that takes place after the movie, like the Leelo and Stitch series?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 05, 2010, 09:41:16 am
Well, is it at all possible this could be turned into a weekly cartoon that takes place after the movie, like the Leelo and Stitch series?
I dont think it will work out like it did in the past. We dont have the "disney afternoon" any longer. Unless of course they are going to place it on the disney channel.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on January 05, 2010, 10:16:21 am
Well, is it at all possible this could be turned into a weekly cartoon that takes place after the movie, like the Leelo and Stitch series?
I dont think it will work out like it did in the past. We dont have the "disney afternoon" any longer. Unless of course they are going to place it on the disney channel.

Afternoon? Well I meant morning, cause I remember when the Aladdin series and I believe the Leelo and Stitch cartoon came on in the morning.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: MKG on January 05, 2010, 10:28:11 am
I is sur luv ta tap dance fo yur. :)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 05, 2010, 10:46:46 am
Afternoon? Well I meant morning, cause I remember when the Aladdin series and I believe the Leelo and Stitch cartoon came on in the morning.
The only chance unless it is on the disney channel or Abc Kids (since they dump disney stuff on there). Yes back in the day Aladdin was on saturday mornings on cbs.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 05, 2010, 11:10:42 am
A series on Disney channel is not a bad place to be. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on January 05, 2010, 12:27:24 pm
The question, though, is would Tiana and Naveen remain HUMAN for the show? When they made The Emperor's New School (spinoff cartoon of the Emperor's New Groove) the main character didn't stay a llama, so...there's precedent, thank goodness. Keep Dr. Falicer as the villain (not sure if Keith David is cheap, but Kevin Michael Richardson would be on speedial if he isn't) and voila.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 05, 2010, 01:32:46 pm
i doubt even KMR is cheap
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on January 06, 2010, 12:33:39 pm
Well, my wife's taking my oldest daughter to see it this weekend.  Everyone assures her it's going to be great.  I hope the kid will be enchanted and sit still thru the movie, but since I'm her father, I have my doubts.  :D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on January 06, 2010, 01:33:35 pm
The question, though, is would Tiana and Naveen remain HUMAN for the show? When they made The Emperor's New School (spinoff cartoon of the Emperor's New Groove) the main character didn't stay a llama, so...there's precedent, thank goodness. Keep Dr. Falicer as the villain (not sure if Keith David is cheap, but Kevin Michael Richardson would be on speedial if he isn't) and voila.

If they do decide to do a cartoon series they are probably going to change the entire premise of the movie. Like Tale Spin did with the Jungle Book characters(it made them bush pilots during the 30s !)

You could have a cartoon where Tiana and her animal friends go up against the evil Dr. Faciler. Or one with Tiana and Naveen as private eyes in Nawlens.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on January 07, 2010, 07:01:30 am
The question, though, is would Tiana and Naveen remain HUMAN for the show? When they made The Emperor's New School (spinoff cartoon of the Emperor's New Groove) the main character didn't stay a llama, so...there's precedent, thank goodness. Keep Dr. Falicer as the villain (not sure if Keith David is cheap, but Kevin Michael Richardson would be on speedial if he isn't) and voila.

If they do decide to do a cartoon series they are probably going to change the entire premise of the movie. Like Tale Spin did with the Jungle Book characters(it made them bush pilots during the 30s !)

You could have a cartoon where Tiana and her animal friends go up against the evil Dr. Faciler. Or one with Tiana and Naveen as private eyes in Nawlens.

...or you could twist the fairy tale further in another story by having Tiana's pal, Charlotte turned into a frog.

I felt that Charlotte was a fairly interesting supporting character who never got to find her true love in The Prince & The Frog. So in another episode, why not have Charlotte return to find her 'prince' but somehow shes turned into a frog and she decides to seek out her friend, Tiana to help her change back.  Now, as far as a villain, I think Dr. Facilier is pretty much done
---or one could have him return as a spirit summoned by another Vodun practitioner.
 
I mean, the possibilities are endless for a second go at the Frog & The Princess storyline.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: bluezulu on January 07, 2010, 01:49:51 pm
16 pages wow. I would love to an outsider do analysis on the socio/cultural mind set of the participants of the HEF. I called my girlfriend over to the computer and read her some of the debate going back and forth on this thread. I would hate to argue over the last beer in the fridge with yall. OMG.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 07, 2010, 02:24:24 pm
I don't think most Disney comics are based off the more musical ones. So that's why we get something like Lilo and Stitch or The Emperor's New Groove, but not Aladdin or Mulan. Those get all the straight-to-DVD sequels.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 07, 2010, 02:43:32 pm
Aladin had a cartoon.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: James72 on January 07, 2010, 05:18:18 pm
I am sure Disney wanted The Princess and the Frog to have bigger numbers in the U.S. alone, but the combined domestic and International sales
the movie has made $132,509,664

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 07, 2010, 05:48:39 pm
Where are the int'l sales? Box Office Mojo is only releasing the domestic sales ($87m for now)
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=princessandthefrog.htm
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: James72 on January 07, 2010, 06:14:40 pm
I noticed that too.  I was questioning when someone from Australia said they saw it last week.  It was just too stagnant so I looked at the website "The Numbers".

Here is the link - http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 07, 2010, 06:40:04 pm
Ooh, thanks! Now I have another website to waste time on. I think for international numbers, those aren't bad at all.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on January 08, 2010, 07:21:37 am
All of which considering the number of potential viewers who decided to either:

Download from unauthorized websites and watch this movie on thier computers

-or-

Too ashamed to walk into a theater populated with children and thier families.

Either way, the film was still a success.

Now, I'd like to see more episodes of The Princess & the Frog in future projects! :)

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 09, 2010, 11:40:19 pm
All of which considering the number of potential viewers who decided to either:

Download from unauthorized websites and watch this movie on thier computers

-or-

Too ashamed to walk into a theater populated with children and thier families.

Excuses, excuses. And unsubstantiated ones at that.

Quote
Either way, the film was still a success.

Right. Except the complete opposite of that.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on January 10, 2010, 08:16:42 am
I noticed that too.  I was questioning when someone from Australia said they saw it last week.  It was just too stagnant so I looked at the website "The Numbers".

Here is the link - [url]http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php[/url] ([url]http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php[/url])


I'm guessing BOM doesn't bother to count foriegn reciepts until a movie is released in the U.K.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Catch22 on January 12, 2010, 05:53:56 am
I don't think the box office of this movie matters in the least....at least not by conventional standards.  Disney is probably making or going to make 100 times the money on merchandising Princess Tiana than they do in ticket sales anyway.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on January 12, 2010, 05:58:37 am
I don't think the box office of this movie matters in the least....at least not by conventional standards.  Disney is probably making or going to make 100 times the money on merchandising Princess Tiana than they do in ticket sales anyway.


Thanks, Catch!  :)

No one has even factored in the home entertainment sales figures, yet.  Like I said earlier,
---leave the beancounting to the beancounters.  ;)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 14, 2010, 02:16:33 pm
I don't think the box office of this movie matters in the least....at least not by conventional standards.  Disney is probably making or going to make 100 times the money on merchandising Princess Tiana than they do in ticket sales anyway.

Probably so, but I have a sneaking suspicion that even THAT isn't doing as well as it should. I was in Walmart for Christmas Eve, and there was no shortage of Tiana merchandise at all. Which makes me wonder a bit about all this "sold out everything, everywhere" talk. I'm not saying it's not true, but I wouldn't mind seeing the actual numbers.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Blanks on January 14, 2010, 03:47:45 pm
that's kind of odd. When I was looking for Tiana stuff for my nieces for Christmas, I had a doozer of time trying to find filled racks. There would be the displays, but the actual stuff was like Chris Clarmont at a Black Panther panel.

ouch.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 14, 2010, 04:31:14 pm
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2ps4ns0.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/15g2r1c.jpg)

Those were the only shots I was able to get off before I was accosted by security. All the stuff on the other side of the clothes is also FP stuff (bags, purses, books, etc.). I WILL say that there were no Tiana dolls or bedspreads or anything like that...not because they were sold out, but because they weren't sold. Why? According to the good folks in customer service, there was no reason to order that stuff because there was no demand. And that begs the question: are these sold out products because they were so desired, or because there were so few made?

*edit* Some quick Amazon searches show that most of the Tiana products - including that oh-so-elusive Halloween costume - are very much in stock.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on January 15, 2010, 10:05:46 am
Probably so, but I have a sneaking suspicion that even THAT isn't doing as well as it should. I was in Walmart for Christmas Eve, and there was no shortage of Tiana merchandise at all. Which makes me wonder a bit about all this "sold out everything, everywhere" talk. I'm not saying it's not true, but I wouldn't mind seeing the actual numbers.



Regionally, the sales figures vary.  You're in Texas, aren't you?  
...ultra-conservative bush territory, eh? ;)


Also, I know that Wal*Mart and retail stores similar in model are constantly shifting inventory
---daily!   If not, weekly.  
I've heard complaints from Wal*Mart employees about constantly shifting and/or re-stocking goods just to keep them busy during low volume periods.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on January 15, 2010, 10:24:57 am
You know Walmart officially has no hyphen/asterisk anymore, right? I guess they're trying to update their image or something.

And Walmart with security? That's interesting. I've been there plenty of times and took pics of stuff that was rare, that I wanted, etc. and no one told me to do anything. No one noticed. lol Must be lax in NC or something.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on January 15, 2010, 01:06:49 pm
Well Texas as a proving ground for selling Black themed merchandise is shaky ground in any argument.

I wish the PRINCESS AND THE FROG were so abundant here in NYC last Christmas as everything was sold out.

I even saw some women contemplating buying a 60 dollar princess set with Tiffany included.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 15, 2010, 02:06:13 pm
Regionally, the sales figures vary.  You're in Texas, aren't you?  
...ultra-conservative bush territory, eh? ;)

Dallas County is blue. Keep those excuses rolling in, though.

I wish the PRINCESS AND THE FROG were so abundant here in NYC last Christmas as everything was sold out.

That's my question in the first place - how can it be so abundant here and so scarce there? FP apologists will try to make it a regional issue, but my elementary school is EASILY around 80% Blatino, and I've yet to see a Princess Tiana anything. I stick by the theory that the lack of stock is due to the amount of stuff made, especially since most of it is in abundance on Amazon.

Quote
I even saw some women contemplating buying a 60 dollar princess set with Tiffany included.

I hope you're not married to one of them.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: jefferson L.O.B. sergeant on January 15, 2010, 04:54:39 pm

 

Quote
I even saw some women contemplating buying a 60 dollar princess set with Tiffany included.

I hope you're not married to one of them.
[/quote]

No, I'm single, but actually the 2 women were middle aged White women who seemed captivated by the design of the box.

You pressed a button on the box and the music from the relevant character would play.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 17, 2010, 10:43:19 pm
Out of top 10. (http://boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/?yr=2010&wknd=03&p=.htm) Still hasn't cracked $100m domestic. Guess those multiple showings on the Essence Singles Cruise aren't going to cut it.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 01:11:23 am
 :D at Jenn's One Woman Crusade against Princess & the Frog... :D    Phone pics from Walmart?  Really?  Wow.  :D

But let's be real.  How well was this film really going to do?  Beyond Disney's considerable marketing muscle, it's still for all intent and purposes a "Black" film...and when was the last time a Black film cracked 100 mil domestic?  All things considered, 93 mil is a respectable number.  It's not a hit but it's certainly not a flop either.  Lovely Bones, Invictus, Nine.  Those are flops.  P&F has been out 8 weeks and it's still sitting at #13 so it'll eventually limp along to making it's budget back.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 01:30:14 am
Phone pics from Walmart?  Really?  Wow.

Sorry, but I'm a little too accustomed to the Seven School of Everybody Loves This Raggedy Piece of sh*t That I Love and I'm So Not Bullsh*ting Just to Make a Point Online. Besides, I have a Touch Pro 2. You'd be taking pictures if your phone was half as dope as mine.

Quote
But let's be real.  How well was this film really going to do?  Beyond Disney's considerable marketing muscle, it's still for all intent and purposes a "Black" film...and when was the last time a Black film cracked 100 mil domestic? 

The Excuses Brigade is right on schedule, I see. Do you even believe anything you typed, or are you moving solely on autopilot by now?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 08:02:08 am

Sorry, but I'm a little too accustomed to the Seven School of Everybody Loves This Raggedy Piece of sh*t That I Love and I'm So Not Bullsh*ting Just to Make a Point Online. Besides, I have a Touch Pro 2. You'd be taking pictures if your phone was half as dope as mine.

Touche.



The Excuses Brigade is right on schedule, I see. Do you even believe anything you typed, or are you moving solely on autopilot by now?

Excuses Brigade?  :D  Please little sister.  Miss me on that.  What I posted were film facts and history.  You not even addressing them and going straight into deflection mode is telling.  Carry on jousting with the windmills.   :D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 08:11:56 am
Get back at me when your film FINALLY makes back its production budget.

*pointing and laughing at you*

On the up side, it DID win Best Animated Feature at the Golden Globes last...HAHAHAHAHANIGGAPLZ. That went to "Up" - a *real* movie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 11:46:02 am
Get back at me when your film FINALLY makes back its production budget.

 
When you add international b.o. with domestic, P&F has surpassed it's production budget.  http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php
So what are you talking about?

*pointing and laughing at you*

Quote
On the up side, it DID win Best Animated Feature at the Golden Globes last...HAHAHAHAHANIGGAPLZ. That went to "Up" - a *real* movie.


Knock off the straw-man tactics.  You're smarter than that...usually.   
 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 12:48:09 pm
When you add international b.o. with domestic...

Exactly. Now, go back to ordering your Princess Tiana blowup doll. Grown folks are talking.

Quote
Knock off the straw-man tactics.

No. Now do something about it.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 01:52:25 pm
Quote from: Jenn link=topic=1589.msg93845#msg93845 date=1263847689[/quote

Exactly. Now, go back to ordering your Princess Tiana blowup doll. Grown folks are talking.

Lame e-insults...truly the final, desperate bastion of the weak.  :D  In the end, P&F underperformed. That's it. Cost 100m and made 150m total.  All this before home video is added to the tally.  Get some perspective little girl.


Quote
No. Now do something about it.

E-insults, now barren e-taunts.  :D :D 

Do better.  I've got faith in you.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 02:22:30 pm
Too busy relishing in your girl Tiana flopping for now. But I'll get back to you. In the meantime...FLOP! FLOP! FLOPPITY FLOP-FLOP-FLOP!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Open palm on January 18, 2010, 02:26:34 pm

When you add international b.o. with domestic, P&F has surpassed it's production budget.  [url]http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php[/url]
So what are you talking about?
 


This movie still isn't available in Asia. So the jury's still out on its total earnings. Why didn't Disney make a worldwide release on the same week?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 03:11:47 pm
Too busy relishing in your girl Tiana flopping for now. But I'll get back to you. In the meantime...FLOP! FLOP! FLOPPITY FLOP-FLOP-FLOP!


Jenn's inability to deal with The Princess and the Frog's moderate success:

(http://gregqualls.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/training-pg-crying.jpg)





To which most of us reply:

(http://shadowwar.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/stop-whining.jpeg)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 03:13:35 pm

When you add international b.o. with domestic, P&F has surpassed it's production budget.  [url]http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php[/url]
So what are you talking about?
 


This movie still isn't available in Asia. So the jury's still out on its total earnings. Why didn't Disney make a worldwide release on the same week?


I'd say Disney probably didn't have much faith in a "Black" film's acceptance in certain markets.  You know the "rule"...anything not staring Will or Denzel...
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 05:18:04 pm
"Moderate success". No wonder our children are f*cked. Demand more, please.

And you != "most of us". In fact, other than that equally creepy Battle, you're kind of talking to the wind here.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on January 18, 2010, 06:44:53 pm

When you add international b.o. with domestic, P&F has surpassed it's production budget.  [url]http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/FROGP.php[/url]
So what are you talking about?
 


This movie still isn't available in Asia. So the jury's still out on its total earnings. Why didn't Disney make a worldwide release on the same week?


Or the U.K. either.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 18, 2010, 08:32:08 pm
"Moderate success". No wonder our children are f*cked. Demand more, please.

Better a moderate success than a misguided, screechy one woman crusade talking loud and saying pretty much nothing. 

And you != "most of us". In fact, other than that equally creepy Battle, you're kind of talking to the wind here.

No, that's pretty much everybody who participated in this thread.  You're the Don Quixote here, lil sis.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 18, 2010, 11:54:26 pm
Better a moderate success than a misguided, screechy one woman crusade talking loud and saying pretty much nothing.  

And yet, you're still here.

No, that's pretty much everybody who participated in this thread.

While I'm amused at your pathetic attempts to rally "everybody" here - it takes a particularly weak motherf*cker to suggest that the right opinion is the one the majority holds - the truth is that in this thread, we have two creepy jerkoffs whom I wouldn't ever want around any children I know, and everybody else more or less speculating about the sales numbers and questioning Disney's tactics (or lack thereof). Everything else is in your skeevy ass head.

BTW, if what I was saying wasn't spot on, you wouldn't feel so compelled to gather the HEF Frog Princess Crew to your side. Keep that in the back of your mind while you're working so hard on your next "Disney doesn't like black people" response, okay?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 19, 2010, 01:36:01 am
And yet, you're still here.

Well, what can I say.  Your mania is entirely too interesting to just pass by. 

While I'm amused at your pathetic attempts to rally "everybody" here - it takes a particularly weak motherf*cker to suggest that the right opinion is the one the majority holds - the truth is that in this thread, we have two creepy jerkoffs whom I wouldn't ever want around any children I know, and everybody else more or less speculating about the sales numbers and questioning Disney's tactics (or lack thereof). Everything else is in your skeevy ass head.

You are as predictable as a Tyler Perry flick.  Disagree with one of Jenn's childish tirades and here come the insults...because ultimately, that's all you have.  Well, that, misplaced anger, and a healthy dose of paranoia.  "Rally everybody"?  :D  This from the chick who drove to a Walmart, whipped out the cam phone, squeezed off a few shots, then ran home to post her supposed "evidence" of a film's failure...as if pictures of a few ugly dresses and stuffed frogs in one North Texas store prove anything.   :D

BTW, if what I was saying wasn't spot on, you wouldn't feel so compelled to gather the HEF Frog Princess Crew to your side. Keep that in the back of your mind while you're working so hard on your next "Disney doesn't like black people" response, okay?

Balance yourself, breathe, and read what's written.  Just what's actually written on your screen, and not what the voices in your head are saying is on your screen.  Nobody's gathering the crew against you. That's those voices again.  Stop listening to them.  I'm compelled to reply to your bullsh*t because that's what it is...bullsh*t.  It's one thing to not like a movie, but you've turned P&F's failure into a personal cause.  That's the truth of this thread.  You're Ahab and P&F is Moby Dick.  You can't even hold an adult conversation with people who disagree with you without going batsh*t.  It ain't personal lady.  Really, it ain't.  I just disagree with your faulty declarations.  That's it and that's all. 
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 19, 2010, 02:16:06 am
Cool story, bro!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on January 19, 2010, 06:54:45 am

You are as predictable as a Tyler Perry flick.



Zing!  ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 19, 2010, 08:15:27 am
This is what I am trying to understand. How is this film is considered a "success" if it didnt reached it's budget here in the united states, not being played in japan nor the UK & the game is only on the nintendo console (where UP! was on each gaming console to reach the masses of children).

Using the excuse of it being a "black film" that doesnt star will smith nor denzel washington doesnt fly. The movie just didnt reach its potential. It barely did better if not worse than treasure planet or atlantis. If we are using the Will Smith/Denzel Washington thing, then I will feel sorry for black viewers of the next generation because once both of these men pass there is currently no young star of color that is even hinted at being like one of them.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on January 19, 2010, 08:46:29 am
Actually, Will's SON is about to become a GIANT star when KARATE KID comes out.  You heard it here first.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 19, 2010, 12:12:04 pm
akumatrunigga, what makes it so weird is that this film has grossed roughly 1/2 of its US numbers internationally, despite not being released in the UK or Japan. I mean...WTF is going *on*? I think the overseas numbers are very impressive, but that's what makes the US numbers even more confusing. You mean to tell me that there's more interest in a black princess in Bumf*ck, East Europe than here in these post-racial United States?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 19, 2010, 01:30:14 pm
akumatrunigga, what makes it so weird is that this film has grossed roughly 1/2 of its US numbers internationally, despite not being released in the UK or Japan. I mean...WTF is going *on*? I think the overseas numbers are very impressive, but that's what makes the US numbers even more confusing. You mean to tell me that there's more interest in a black princess in Bumf*ck, East Europe than here in these "post-racial United States"?

I laugh at this sometimes.
Actually, Will's SON is about to become a GIANT star when KARATE KID comes out.  You heard it here first.
In a way reggie that dont count since he is the breed of will smith. Im talking about a fresh upstart that didnt had the advantages of being the child of a July mega event actor
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on January 19, 2010, 01:39:41 pm
Well, it must be enuff of a sucess that Disney has add it to it's ice shows in Disney.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on January 19, 2010, 02:00:35 pm
In a way reggie that dont count since he is the breed of will smith. Im talking about a fresh upstart that didnt had the advantages of being the child of a July mega event actor

I disagree. Being the family of a big name can hinder you as much as it can help you, and it certainly isn't a guarantee for success. (See also: Jackson, Janet v. La Toya.) And maybe Jaylen's rise (is that his name?) can make it easier on the next new talent.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on January 19, 2010, 02:07:38 pm
It's hard being a star - period.  Son or daughter of...or a complete unknown.  It's incredibly hard.  So it all counts. 

And it does make it easier for another to follow.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on January 19, 2010, 03:19:34 pm
I think Voodoochild and Jenn both have points. P & F is underperforming, but its not a flop or abject failure domestically. At the same time, I can't say its been a success. It started out weak, but has been earning money slowly. It's limping to the 100 mil mark, and if Disney keeps it in the theaters another month it should make that. Coupled with the future DVD sales, and they might make a decent profit on the film. Not to mention whatever the international box office take will wind up being and the merchandising. But it's doubtful that Princess and the Frog will become a Disney classic for the mainstream (white) audiences, and I wonder from the relatively initial weak showing, how much black support it has had. And how much black people have embraced the film. P & F might wind up being an event movie like Dreamgirls that has short legs, even though it reintroduced the world to Jennifer Hudson.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: voodoochild on January 19, 2010, 04:07:54 pm
I think Voodoochild and Jenn both have points. P & F is underperforming, but its not a flop or abject failure domestically. At the same time, I can't say its been a success. It started out weak, but has been earning money slowly. It's limping to the 100 mil mark, and if Disney keeps it in the theaters another month it should make that. Coupled with the future DVD sales, and they might make a decent profit on the film. Not to mention whatever the international box office take will wind up being and the merchandising. But it's doubtful that Princess and the Frog will become a Disney classic for the mainstream (white) audiences, and I wonder from the relatively initial weak showing, how much black support it has had. And how much black people have embraced the film. P & F might wind up being an event movie like Dreamgirls that has short legs, even though it reintroduced the world to Jennifer Hudson.

Thank you sir.  That's all I've been trying to say.  P&F certainly is no HIT, but it not a staggering FLOP either.  Had it topped out at 50m domestic, I would've, logically, agreed with Jenn.  But, like you say, it's limping along.  Also, we can't look past the racial dynamic at play here.  It's a Black film that doesn't have "Tyler Perry presents" as it's heading.  That a cartoon aimed primarily at little Black girls has made 98% of it's production budget back is kind of a success.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on January 19, 2010, 06:58:50 pm
Thank you sir.  That's all I've been trying to say.  P&F certainly is no HIT, but it not a staggering FLOP either.  Had it topped out at 50m domestic, I would've, logically, agreed with Jenn.  But, like you say, it's limping along.  Also, we can't look past the racial dynamic at play here.  It's a Black film that doesn't have "Tyler Perry presents" as it's heading.  That a cartoon aimed primarily at little Black girls has made 98% of it's production budget back is kind of a success.
Again I see the "black film" thing. I don't think Disney were only aiming for black girls or black families. I guess it just backfired. I don't remember Aladdin being an Arab film (yes Aladdin look white and the bad guys were dark skin but still)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on January 20, 2010, 03:05:16 am
It's not an issue of Disney aiming just for black girls or people, I don't think they were, though I'm sure they knew or hoped black dollars would be a base of support. It wouldn't make sense to spend 100 million to make a film just for the US black audience. Even with strong black support, Tyler Perry's films are now just pushing past the 50 million dollar mark. If this film had been made for blacks, it would've had a much much smaller production budget and heck, it probably would've been straight to video.

For me the issue is the continued seeming reluctance of white film goers to support films with 'black' themes or black main characters. To date, I can only think of Inside Man, Training Day, and Dreamgirls being in the blockbuster range, not to mention the Will Smith films. But many of those were race neutral with actors whites have come to accept, Will Smith, Denzel, Eddie, and Beyonce. Movies with 'black' subject matter (like Last King of Scotland, Blood Diamond, The Blind Side), but have white leads, usually are more popular. I wonder if there was an inability or reluctance for whites identify with Tiana or want their daughters to. On some level, did they see the trailers and posters and think, "That's not for me," "I can't relate to that", "I won't get that." Something happened because for the most part the national media lauded the film and the return to 2-D made it an event. It should've sparked nostalgia among parents, or I guess that was Disney's hope. But it didn't quite do that. Though I don't think race played the sole factor in the film's underperformance, I believe it did play a role. It also shows the limits of Oprah's reach. Outside of the Color Purple, have any Oprah films been successful at the box office? And did Oprah heavily promote this film? I don't watch her show so I don't know if she had the cast on there or used her media empire to make P & F more palatable to her white fans or not. Maybe they should've just called it "Tyler Perry's Princess and the Frog". Joking.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on February 18, 2010, 11:28:10 am
Disney animator, Bruce W. Smith giving a demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/user/princessandthefrog#p/u/7/mdQs7zPC_mg) from his perspective on the character designs  of Dr. Facilier.

http://www.youtube.com/user/princessandthefrog#p/u/7/mdQs7zPC_mg

The Princess & The Frog DVD should be out by March 16th
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 03, 2010, 03:13:55 pm
Check out this fan-dub from someone on youtube doing a Charlotte impression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE0V5gU9gN0).  I think it's cute and funny.(http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/Themes/default/images/post/cheesy.gif)

*Disclaimer* NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED. THE SUBSCRIBER DOESN'T OWN THE VIDEO, THE SCRIPT, OR THE CHARACTERS. THIS FANDUB WAS MADE PURELY FOR FUN AND NOT FOR PROFIT.



Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 03, 2010, 04:37:43 pm
It's not an issue of Disney aiming just for black girls or people, I don't think they were, though I'm sure they knew or hoped black dollars would be a base of support. It wouldn't make sense to spend 100 million to make a film just for the US black audience. Even with strong black support, Tyler Perry's films are now just pushing past the 50 million dollar mark. If this film had been made for blacks, it would've had a much much smaller production budget and heck, it probably would've been straight to video.

For me the issue is the continued seeming reluctance of white film goers to support films with 'black' themes or black main characters. To date, I can only think of Inside Man, Training Day, and Dreamgirls being in the blockbuster range, not to mention the Will Smith films. But many of those were race neutral with actors whites have come to accept, Will Smith, Denzel, Eddie, and Beyonce. Movies with 'black' subject matter (like Last King of Scotland, Blood Diamond, The Blind Side), but have white leads, usually are more popular. I wonder if there was an inability or reluctance for whites identify with Tiana or want their daughters to. On some level, did they see the trailers and posters and think, "That's not for me," "I can't relate to that", "I won't get that." Something happened because for the most part the national media lauded the film and the return to 2-D made it an event. It should've sparked nostalgia among parents, or I guess that was Disney's hope. But it didn't quite do that. Though I don't think race played the sole factor in the film's underperformance, I believe it did play a role. It also shows the limits of Oprah's reach. Outside of the Color Purple, have any Oprah films been successful at the box office? And did Oprah heavily promote this film? I don't watch her show so I don't know if she had the cast on there or used her media empire to make P & F more palatable to her white fans or not. Maybe they should've just called it "Tyler Perry's Princess and the Frog". Joking.

i'm with you on this one.
and Tyler Perry's Princess and the Frog is funny. lol
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: MKG on March 03, 2010, 09:06:24 pm
She still alive? DAMN!
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 07, 2010, 02:19:49 pm
Thank you sir.  That's all I've been trying to say.  P&F certainly is no HIT, but it not a staggering FLOP either.  Had it topped out at 50m domestic, I would've, logically, agreed with Jenn.  But, like you say, it's limping along.  Also, we can't look past the racial dynamic at play here.  It's a Black film that doesn't have "Tyler Perry presents" as it's heading.  That a cartoon aimed primarily at little Black girls has made 98% of it's production budget back is kind of a success.
Again I see the "black film" thing. I don't think Disney were only aiming for black girls or black families. I guess it just backfired. I don't remember Aladdin being an Arab film (yes Aladdin look white and the bad guys were dark skin but still)

Akuma, off topic, but is that Dudley beating the snot out of Balrog in your avatar? What's that from?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on March 07, 2010, 04:03:10 pm
Thank you sir.  That's all I've been trying to say.  P&F certainly is no HIT, but it not a staggering FLOP either.  Had it topped out at 50m domestic, I would've, logically, agreed with Jenn.  But, like you say, it's limping along.  Also, we can't look past the racial dynamic at play here.  It's a Black film that doesn't have "Tyler Perry presents" as it's heading.  That a cartoon aimed primarily at little Black girls has made 98% of it's production budget back is kind of a success.
Again I see the "black film" thing. I don't think Disney were only aiming for black girls or black families. I guess it just backfired. I don't remember Aladdin being an Arab film (yes Aladdin look white and the bad guys were dark skin but still)

Akuma, off topic, but is that Dudley beating the snot out of Balrog in your avatar? What's that from?
super street fighter 4
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 15, 2010, 01:46:08 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on March 15, 2010, 02:13:45 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Well there are litterally 3 black men as playable characters now. ROFL as you may notice all are boxers
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 15, 2010, 02:43:36 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Well there are litterally 3 black men as playable characters now. ROFL as you may notice all are boxers

I'm guessing the third is DeeJay. We're never gonna get a Ken/Ryu type black character are we? I know plenty of American black dudes in real life who have black belts but aren't boxers. Sigh.

Also, more thread drift: my avatar pic is ready but I can't upload it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Finally, to get back ON topic: there should be a sequel called The Prince and the White Girl, you know, to kinda balance things. Same story with the genders reversed, and without the frog transformation.  ;D
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Jenn on March 15, 2010, 02:58:27 pm
Yeah, RIGHT!!!  ;D

Although I will say this: I hate that the Academy chose this movie's two weakest songs for Oscar noms: Almost There (boring) and Down in New Orleans (even more boring). Friends on the Other Side was the only bright moment in this dreck of a film, and it got overlooked. I think had that song been nommed, it would've had a real shot at winning.

Your avatar: you can't upload pictures here. You'll need to upload it offline and place the new url in the place that says "I have my own pic".
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JRCarter on March 15, 2010, 03:48:59 pm
We're never gonna get a Ken/Ryu type black character are we? I know plenty of American black dudes in real life who have black belts but aren't boxers. Sigh.


We almost did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_(Street_Fighter)#Character_design

Finally, to get back ON topic: there should be a sequel called The Prince and the White Girl, you know, to kinda balance things. Same story with the genders reversed, and without the frog transformation.  ;D


I think I'm gonna pitch that to Disney execs just to see the look on their faces.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Tahdigga on March 15, 2010, 11:12:20 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Well there are litterally 3 black men as playable characters now. ROFL as you may notice all are boxers


I'm guessing the third is DeeJay. We're never gonna get a Ken/Ryu type black character are we? I know plenty of American black dudes in real life who have black belts but aren't boxers. Sigh.

Also, more thread drift: my avatar pic is ready but I can't upload it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Finally, to get back ON topic: there should be a sequel called The Prince and the White Girl, you know, to kinda balance things. Same story with the genders reversed, and without the frog transformation.  ;D


I thought Sean (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/streetfighter/images/6/6b/Sean-ts-stance.gif) was suppose to be the black  shoryuken guy  (http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Sean)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on March 16, 2010, 05:45:46 am
I thought Sean ([url]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/streetfighter/images/6/6b/Sean-ts-stance.gif[/url]) was suppose to be the black  shoryuken guy  ([url]http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Sean[/url])
Well Kinda but he is also the "joke" and he is barely above Dan
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Furious Anjel on March 20, 2010, 06:03:32 am
Good discussion! Apparently, Disney has their own theory on why the film underperformed: the title. 'Princess' was a turn-off to some boys. It's supposedly the reason why the upcoming Tangled was changed from Rapunzel.

Check out this article from the Los Angeles Times:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/09/business/la-fi-ct-disney9-2010mar09 (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/09/business/la-fi-ct-disney9-2010mar09)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on March 20, 2010, 06:29:30 am
Good discussion! Apparently, Disney has their own theory on why the film underperformed: the title. 'Princess' was a turn-off to some boys. It's supposedly the reason why the upcoming Tangled was changed from Rapunzel.

Check out this article from the Los Angeles Times:

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/09/business/la-fi-ct-disney9-2010mar09[/url] ([url]http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/09/business/la-fi-ct-disney9-2010mar09[/url])

very interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 20, 2010, 07:38:06 am
From the article:
"After the less-than-fairy-tale results for its most recent animated release, "The Princess and the Frog," executives at the Burbank studio believe they know why the acclaimed movie came up short at the box office.

Brace yourself: Boys didn't want to see a movie with "princess" in the title
."


------------------

I'll have to agree, although I can't stand it when the marketing department gets too involved in the creative process.  You have to remember that there was such a negative reaction to the working title while this movie was in production that the final title, "The Princess & The Frog"  seemed like a safe way to compromise but it was much too cliche as I can think of a few animated films in the past with the 'princess' moniker in it.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on March 20, 2010, 10:43:15 am
They thought boys wanted to see this movie?????

Don't they know, Girls will watch Boy movies, Boys won't watch Girl movies.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Emperorjones on March 20, 2010, 05:17:28 pm
I agree with Kip. And renaming this film "Tangled", which the article says (I'm paraphrasing) evokes tangled relationships? Oh yeah, young boys want to go watch a movie about relationships. Taking Rapunzel out of the title is dumb. The name alone helps market the film. How can you do that with "Tangled"? It sounds like a Julia Roberts-Clive Owen film. Or an old school Michael Douglass sex thriller.

Though I do think the article is interesting. I didn't realize there had been that many female protagonists in Disney films lately, nor did I stop to think about the male leads for the Pixar films. But I wonder if the other female led films had as disappointing box office as P & F did? I'm not discounting a gender 'problem' for the film, but I still think race also played a factor in the film underperforming. Not to mention release date, and many of the other reasons many posters discussed on this thread.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BmoreAkuma on March 21, 2010, 08:58:39 pm
... ::)

Wait they are using the excuse that "boys didnt like the name of the title". Sounds like a bunch of bullsh*t to me.


The Little Mermaind
Mulan
Cinderella
Alice In Wonderland
Sleeping Beauty
Beauty And The Beast
Pocahontas


Each of the movies listed had woman on the cover of the movie poster, dvd (VHS) or any other means of marketing material but each of these movies earned success in the box office.

(http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/The-Little-Mermaid-Poster-C10313393.jpeg)

So using the "boys didnt like the title" as a reason is silly. Why cant they admit that drawn animation isnt the thing to do anymore?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: KIP LEWIS on March 22, 2010, 05:40:38 am
Because drawn animation isn't the problem.  If it was, then they'd be a problem on TV too; they're not.

Besides the race issue, I think the problem with the movie was "it was a stupid plot"--people turning into frogs????  Why did they think that people would be attracted to that?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Vic Vega on March 22, 2010, 06:20:17 am
Because drawn animation isn't the problem.  If it was, then they'd be a problem on TV too; they're not.

That stuff (Computer Animation) still isnt cheap compared to the line drawn stuff.

If it was cheaper, Computer Animation on T.V. would be the rule and not the exception as it is now.

But on the big screen folks at this point probably expect to see computer animation.

Besides, have White audiences ever been willing to emphasize with Black leads other than Denzel and Will Smith? And if they have was the lead carrying a gun or sword at the time?
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 22, 2010, 11:06:15 am
I think there never should have been any mention of a Disney's 1st "African-American Princess" because I still believe there is a segment of people who simply aren't interested having thier kids seeing a movie where Black people are the main focus.  The movie should have been marketed... 'as is'; a traditionally-hand drawn animated movie.

Either way, I still enjoyed the show for what it was because it's the kind of movie I've always wanted to see.

Besides, marketing a movie as Disney's "1st African-American Princess" is a bit misleading, as if African women were not princesses before Disney came around to presenting it as a novelty.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 22, 2010, 12:14:07 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Well there are litterally 3 black men as playable characters now. ROFL as you may notice all are boxers


I'm guessing the third is DeeJay. We're never gonna get a Ken/Ryu type black character are we? I know plenty of American black dudes in real life who have black belts but aren't boxers. Sigh.

Also, more thread drift: my avatar pic is ready but I can't upload it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Finally, to get back ON topic: there should be a sequel called The Prince and the White Girl, you know, to kinda balance things. Same story with the genders reversed, and without the frog transformation.  ;D


I thought Sean ([url]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/streetfighter/images/6/6b/Sean-ts-stance.gif[/url]) was suppose to be the black  shoryuken guy  ([url]http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Sean[/url])


According to the same link, Sean is Brazilian, but his paternal grandfather is Japanese.  Kinda rules him out as the black shoryuken guy?

I guess the makers just think black dudes = boxing and there's nothing we can do about it.  :-\
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Tahdigga on March 23, 2010, 05:28:11 pm
Oh I wasn't aware Dudley was in SF4. I thought they were gonna forget most of the characters from Part 3 (at least that seems to be the case with Elena).
Well there are litterally 3 black men as playable characters now. ROFL as you may notice all are boxers


I'm guessing the third is DeeJay. We're never gonna get a Ken/Ryu type black character are we? I know plenty of American black dudes in real life who have black belts but aren't boxers. Sigh.

Also, more thread drift: my avatar pic is ready but I can't upload it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Finally, to get back ON topic: there should be a sequel called The Prince and the White Girl, you know, to kinda balance things. Same story with the genders reversed, and without the frog transformation.  ;D


I thought Sean ([url]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/streetfighter/images/6/6b/Sean-ts-stance.gif[/url]) was suppose to be the black  shoryuken guy  ([url]http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Sean[/url])


According to the same link, Sean is Brazilian, but his paternal grandfather is Japanese.  Kinda rules him out as the black shoryuken guy?

I guess the makers just think black dudes = boxing and there's nothing we can do about it.  :-\



So where do some Brazilian men get their dark skin from? It's well documented that some hispanic men are descended from Africa, hence the dark skin, full lips and wide noses.


I'd smash..lol  ;D
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2260/2115069863_4e7479efdd.jpg)

(http://rodonline.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c6d4753ef01156e658a58970c-800wi)

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: JRCarter on March 23, 2010, 08:15:15 pm

I guess the makers just think black dudes = boxing and there's nothing we can do about it.  :-\


Good thing the makers of Tekken are a bit more enlightened:

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071117040226/tekken/en/images/9/9a/Raven.jpg)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 24, 2010, 07:59:11 am
pssst...
start a new thread please.
thanx.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 26, 2010, 01:11:32 pm
pssst...
start a new thread please.
thanx.

Alright, saw it a few nights ago finally, thanks to Redbox. It felt like too little to late, to be honest with you. Such a movie should have been attempted a decade ago. It also felt more like an idea than an actual movie. It felt too much like connect the dots, a happens, then b, then c, then...etc. I guess most movies are like that, but I noticed it even more with this one.

Also, Dr. Facilier felt more like a henchman than an actual #1 villain. I was hoping he'd be right up there with Scar and Jafar and Malificent, but...sadly, no. I also didn't buy how easily and quickly he was able to turn Naveen's aid to his side. If they had simply established they were in some sort of contact (through letters or something) BEFORE, that would have been enough to make it believable. As it stands, everything happened by chance and too easily. Dr. Facilier got REAL lucky. A prince HAPPENS to come by who HAPPENS to have an aid that's sick of him. Yeah right. I was also expecting, I don't know, more from his "Friends on the Other Side" song. Wasn't bad, but wasn't memorable either.

I didn't mind the songs (I didn't feel there were too many of them), I minded that the movie as a whole seemed to drag on. However, I did buy Tiana and Naveen falling in love. I thought that was sweet. Not sure how I feel about Ray, though. An onscreen death [sort of], even with his "resurrection" I wonder if that was a bit much for kids? This is the first movie of its kind, with a black heroine, not sure if something so dark should have been included. Such things can turn kids and parents away.

Eh, its moot since they're blaming boys not seeing the movie for the movie's failure. lol Yeah, right, nice try Disney.

Finally, I can't stop listening to the song played over the credits (but oddly not included in the movie like other Disney songs are), "Never Knew I Needed" by Ne-Yo. It fit the movie perfectly. Looking it up on Youtube, there's a duet version of the song, featuring the voice for Tiana in the German dub, Cassandra Steen. I like both versions, but perhaps the duet version would have been more appropriate. A duet would have cemented this movie as one of the princess movies, like with Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 26, 2010, 02:22:19 pm
Also, Dr. Facilier felt more like a henchman than an actual #1 villain. I was hoping he'd be right up there with Scar and Jafar and Malificent, but...sadly, no. I also didn't buy how easily and quickly he was able to turn Naveen's aid to his side. If they had simply established they were in some sort of contact (through letters or something) BEFORE, that would have been enough to make it believable. As it stands, everything happened by chance and too easily. Dr. Facilier got REAL lucky. A prince HAPPENS to come by who HAPPENS to have an aid that's sick of him. Yeah right. I was also expecting, I don't know, more from his "Friends on the Other Side" song. Wasn't bad, but wasn't memorable either.


Perhaps you're thinking in terms of positions of power rather than power levels when you see Dr. Facilier.  Let's compare:

Maleficent was a spell caster and can metamorph (into a dragon) not much different from Facilier; he was a master illusionist and a summoner (of dead spirits). Both of them were outcasts of society; Malificent had no real influence over the subjects in that kingdom because all she did was sit around in her castle and sulk.
Dr. Facilier hustled the streets of New Orleans before drugs & alcohol, prostitution and crime ran rampant.  Again, no real position of power from both of them, yet.  

Jafar was the only Disney villian you mentioned who came into real power because he was the Sultans advisor and consultant; A politician who can indirectly change policy that can effect huge populations. He can even have someone executed. Combine that power with being a sorcerer and his power level is boosted significantly! Combine that power with the same power as a genie and...!  Well, you know how that story ends. :)

I dont remember much about Scar because I havent seen Lion King in over 10 years but from what I do remember, he was a still a lion. A frail lion but a lion nonetheless and in the great circle of life ,  lions are still respected as  top of the food chain which is a position of power but there can only be one lion king.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Afro Samurai on March 26, 2010, 04:28:24 pm
It about damn time disney did a movie on a black woman........but now how much longer is gonna be for a black prince? It funny that both the black & native american princess were in interracial relationships. LOL, disney would never did do that with a white girl.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Battle on March 27, 2010, 06:59:58 am
It about damn time disney did a movie on a black woman........but now how much longer is gonna be for a black prince? It funny that both the black & native american princess were in interracial relationships. LOL, disney would never did do that with a white girl.



I dunno...(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/shy.gif) ;D

After reviewing  'Princess & the Frog' last night on DVD, I can count on my left hand two occasions where Charlotte cold rejected the white guys; Once at the costume ball and another when she discovers that Prince Naveen was really his aide. She even suggested going for Prince Naveen's little brother!  ;D 
What do you think? :-\
She did seem to be into the jazz culture that was emerging in New Orleans and that was the most Blackest music in the world at that time.
Also,  consider this:
What white girl do you know that has a black best girlfriend who isn't into the brothas?(http://i38.tinypic.com/11t20w0.jpg)
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 27, 2010, 09:42:06 am
Also, Dr. Facilier felt more like a henchman than an actual #1 villain. I was hoping he'd be right up there with Scar and Jafar and Malificent, but...sadly, no. I also didn't buy how easily and quickly he was able to turn Naveen's aid to his side. If they had simply established they were in some sort of contact (through letters or something) BEFORE, that would have been enough to make it believable. As it stands, everything happened by chance and too easily. Dr. Facilier got REAL lucky. A prince HAPPENS to come by who HAPPENS to have an aid that's sick of him. Yeah right. I was also expecting, I don't know, more from his "Friends on the Other Side" song. Wasn't bad, but wasn't memorable either.


Perhaps you're thinking in terms of positions of power rather than power levels when you see Dr. Facilier.  Let's compare:

I was thinking neither, actually. When I think of Disney villains who just ooz evil, those are the first three that immediately come to mind. Scar most of all cause he was willing to kill his own brother to get what he want. Maleficent cause all her evil was because she was bitter over not being invited to the baby's Christening. And Jafar just wanted good old fasioned conquest, just Agrabah. Maleficent lied in wait, while Jafar and Scar worked behind the scenes, pretending to be something they weren't (loyal grand vizor to the sultar for Jafar, loyal yet misunderstood brother to Mufasa for Scar), but all with the same goal: striking when the moment was right. And all involved planning.

With Dr. Facilier? No planning, it all happened by chance. He was at the right place at the right time, which seemed very hard for me to swallow. He didn't ooz evil (him stepping on Ray seemed more like he was about to dance with the nose brush and jacket pull), he didn't even really seem smarmy, he came off like a henchmen, even before it came to light he could only use powers he was allowed to by the Shadows. Rule of thumb, don't show the villain beg so early in the flick, which is essentially what he did with those three heads (side note: one of the few things I had a problem with with all cuts of "Legend", in the script Darkness sounds helpless when talking to his father, and this is the FIRST time we see him). You need to establish a powerful threat or something that can lead to that early on. Show them petty, sure, but not cowering or answering to someone (really answering, not pretending like Jafar).

Also like the three I mentioned, they had real motivations borne out of being connected to the heroes in some way. Jafar by way of Aladdin's father, Scar by being Simba's father's brother and therefore his uncle, and Maleficent from not being invited to Aurora's christening. Facilier had no connection with anyone, and I'm wondering if this is a first for a Disney movie. He's more a plot point to facilitate the main characters changing into frogs than anything else. Had he corresponded with Lawrence in some manner, or heck if he knew Tiana's father in some way, or SOMETHING, it would have went a long way.

They could have done more with Dr. Facilier, but then again they could have done a lot with the rest of the movie, too. The only time I felt he was used effectively was right at the end, when he metaphorically became the devil tempting Tiana with what she wanted most.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Greg on March 27, 2010, 10:28:03 am
Not sure how I feel about Ray, though. An onscreen death [sort of], even with his "resurrection" I wonder if that was a bit much for kids? This is the first movie of its kind, with a black heroine, not sure if something so dark should have been included. Such things can turn kids and parents away.

Wow, really?  ??? As compared to other Disney flicks? I recall the forest scene in Snow White being very damn frightening, along with the Witch popping outta nowhere towards Snow White. Hell, in Tarzan, Clayton gets lynched and we actually see the shadow of this whole process. How about Bambi's mom getting shot? I recall a TON of people (my friends) in tears when that scene shows up. And let me not forget Hunchback of Notre Dame, the priest lusting after Esmeralda and even singing about his sexual desire for her and the beginning when he's about to kill the baby and have the statues all looking upon him was creepy as all hell.

Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: BlackRodimus on March 27, 2010, 10:38:50 am
Not sure how I feel about Ray, though. An onscreen death [sort of], even with his "resurrection" I wonder if that was a bit much for kids? This is the first movie of its kind, with a black heroine, not sure if something so dark should have been included. Such things can turn kids and parents away.

Wow, really?  ??? As compared to other Disney flicks? I recall the forest scene in Snow White being very damn frightening, along with the Witch popping outta nowhere towards Snow White. Hell, in Tarzan, Clayton gets lynched and we actually see the shadow of this whole process. How about Bambi's mom getting shot? I recall a TON of people (my friends) in tears when that scene shows up. And let me not forget Hunchback of Notre Dame, the priest lusting after Esmeralda and even singing about his sexual desire for her and the beginning when he's about to kill the baby and have the statues all looking upon him was creepy as all hell.



The next to last sentence of the paragraph you quoted from me is the most important. While you have a point with your response, this movie is the first of its kind, having a black princess. Since they're not churning them out every other year, you want the FIRST to do all it can to make MONEY so there can be more. Take chances like that with the ones that follow, not with the first. I'm not sure if that's THE reason or ONE of the reason The Princess and the Frog didn't make a flop, or if its a reason at all, but my point is why stack the deck against the first of its kind?

EDIT: And wow, I notice I repeated myself, since my response was also in the very paragraph you quoted. Did you not see that, or did you see it but not agree with it?  ???
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Marvelous on September 18, 2010, 08:04:59 pm
Just showed up for insta queue on Netflix.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: ashleyy on September 19, 2010, 10:55:16 pm
Disney movies are always and i love to watch them and now first black princess in the movie is a great news and i expecting lot from this movie.
Title: Re: Disney's first black "princess" in film
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on September 19, 2010, 11:55:13 pm
Disney movies are always and i love to watch them and now first black princess in the movie is a great news and i expecting lot from this movie.

Really Ashleyy?  You haven't seen the movie yet?  Or are you a robot?