Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: supreme illuminati on April 19, 2019, 03:53:38 pm

Title: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 19, 2019, 03:53:38 pm
So. This is a touchy subject to some, but I concur with first Christopher Priest [ the first man to proclaim that T'Challa is "the shrewdest man in the Marvel Universe" ] and Reginald Hudlin, here. I refer specifically to this quote by Priest:

"Where paths diverge between my vision of Panther and those previous is the character of T’Challa himself. I can’t speak for Mr. McGregor (whom I do not know), but my impression was he saw Panther as the ultimate realization of human potential whose bravery was exemplified in his willingness to risk his life in the service of others.

I see T’Challa that way as well, but I defer to Stan Lee, whose bedrock for this character was he was a man who outsmarted Reed Richards and out-fought the Thing. "--CHRISTOPHER PRIEST

https://www.newsarama.com/25496-priest-looks-back-at-black-panther.html (https://www.newsarama.com/25496-priest-looks-back-at-black-panther.html)

The trick, though, is how can we imbue T'Challa with that premier intellect WITHOUT violating the canon and history and pinnacle expertise of the other megabrains in Marvel...including all 3 versions of Shuri, starting with RH's Shuri BP, the MCU's ultragenius teenage Shuri, and TurnCoates' "Ancient Future" Shuri [ which I actually like; and please my brethren...let us not speak of the vomitous Star Wars rip off cosmic feces that TurnCoates is writing, now ].

I think that the answer to both accenting how uniquely ultra-brilliant T'Challa himself [ not Maberry Era Wizard Killer T'Challa, not King of the Dead T'Challa, not T'Challa post HSH sippage, no, just pure unaugmented T'Challa ] actually is. I think that we as fans and writers are still bamboozled about T'Challa's ultramegagenius to some extent because imo the distinctions between T'Challa himself, peak human ability as a catchall category, the powers of The Black Panther, the KOTD, and Wizard Killer T'Challa are STILL NOT CLEARLY DEFINED.

Regarding specifically T'Challa's intelligence and how to distinguish him from everyone else? Well...remember the unfettered, boundary breaking, jaw dropping world changing genius of the Lamtuna and Godala [ miscalled Moors ] whom are the literal source and inspiration for The Renaissance and by extension The Academic Decathlon? T'Challa is the ultimate incarnation of that.

Which means? He's either smarter than, as smart as, or in the Top 3 intellects engaged in literally any human endeavor. This allows Tony to still be the best blaster maker, T'Challa is just a superior all around WEAPONS maker because T'Challa himself possesses vastly superior experience and training in every form of weapon Earth has ever seen, conjured or imagined...as well as a similar advantage regarding every weapon that every EarthLING has ever seen, conjured or imagined.

He is actually better than both Pym and Reed in Biology, he simply doesn't let on that he is.

T'Challa would not be as good as Shuri in the areas of tech that MCU Shuri showed are her bailiwick, but all other areas of tech? T'Challa holds the edge. As Shuri matures? We could even split that. Some areas of tech T'Challa is superior to her, others he is inferior to her, the majority of the rest they are essentially evenly matched...but T'Challa still has the edge in SWIFTER UNDERSTANDING AND APPLICATION because he has the unanswerable edge of EXPERIENCE over Shuri.

As RH showed, T'Challa would cleanly outperform Doom in every category except for actual magic use...as T'Challa is overall superior to Reed Richards in the IQ department, whereas Doom is overall INFERIOR to Reed in the IQ department.

I think this kind of approach prevents T'Challa from being "overpowered" but at the same time stamps him with a uniquely formidable form of intellect

What do my fellow HEFfas think about T'Challa's intellect, and how it differs from the other Marvel Big Brains?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on April 19, 2019, 05:58:13 pm
I like that Tchalla is smart, but I don't care who is the smartest. Tchalla is dangerous because he can combine intellect, fighting, cleverness, shrewdness, "street smart", and logic to defeat anybody given enough time and materials.

Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 20, 2019, 05:52:03 am
I like that Tchalla is smart, but I don't care who is the smartest. Tchalla is dangerous because he can combine intellect, fighting, cleverness, shrewdness, "street smart", and logic to defeat anybody given enough time and materials.

I feel what you're saying above, Cville, but there's some interesting questions within the subcategories of each of the above that help to clarify the issue [ at least imo ] and in and of themselves pose other questions which...if we answer them...do indeed have a significant impact on how we define intelligence and on what criteria we decide who is or isn't the MOST intelligent.

For instance, thousands of years ago? Our Afrikan ancestors determined that there were at least 15 forms of intelligences. Literally even today, now, Europeans have only uncovered 11.  9 of the 11 are the following:

(https://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/89f4291e-4267-49e2-b0eb-708f9677fbd1/678cab8d-ac8a-4277-8639-0263ca5279e3.png)

the remaining two are FLUID AND CRYSTALLIZED INTELLIGENCE, here: https://study.com/academy/lesson/two-types-of-intelligence-fluid-and-crystallized-intelligence.html (https://study.com/academy/lesson/two-types-of-intelligence-fluid-and-crystallized-intelligence.html)

So using the Afrikan model which the European model above only partly reflects while skipping some very significant links...some of the Earth 616 big brains can have higher scores than other Big Brains in one or more of the Intelligences, while lesser scores in intelligence in one or more of the Big Brains in other Intelligences.  These differences directly impact the characters and determine not only character personality traits but also overall IQ's, I think. For instance, Spider Man may be quicker than T'Challa, but T'Challa has a higher Kinesthetic Intelligence than does Spidey. So T'Challa is a more skilled acrobat, dancer, surgeon, better marksman, etc than Spidey, even if Spidey is both quicker and more agile than T'Challa [ neither of which we know for sure is true; we know that if Spidey does have an edge in quickness and agility, it is a closely contested edge ]. And T'Challa could use his superior Fluid Intelligence to bridge the gap of quickness and agility between himself and Spidey and rapidly overcome Spidey with his vastly superior h2h skills, should the need arise.

What do all of you think?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ture on April 20, 2019, 08:14:47 pm
Good idea for a thread Supreme. The challenge of T'Challa's intellect stems from the lack of in comic book consistency and the scientific concepts and technological constructs he is credited with. Post Lee/Kirby's intro and some inventions and references to his intellect in Avengers and some other guest appearances there is not much to demonstrate T'Challa's genius. It is thus that we are left with little more than an allusion to such.

Black Panther's primary writers McGregor, Priest, Hudlin and Coates chose not focus on his scientific and technological prowess. It was Maberry, Liss, Hickman and Ewing who showcased such groundbreaking discoveries as Shadow Physics, Mutant Gene Suppression, energy gauntlets and an interstellar translocation device. Richards, Stark, Pym are often seen working on new tech and engaged in scientific research consistently. As such their prowess and inventions are used and/or mentioned through the Marvel universe.

The Black Panther has to be seen doing stuff. Richards, Stark, Pym and Doom all earned their super genius posts. How T'Challa could distinguish himself and stay within cannon while not artificially displacing the for mentioned geniuses would be to focus on the scientific breakthroughs, new technologies and mystical application achieved through vibranium.  It will be very satisfying to witness a Black Panther's renaissance in which he is consistently shown as a polymath, master martial artist, brilliant strategist, spiritual, mys tical adept and romantic lead in the pages of his own comic book.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ezyo on April 20, 2019, 11:14:43 pm
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 25, 2019, 10:44:08 am
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.



I agree with so much of this post above, especially the first two paragraphs. I also think that T'Challa should have been singled out for his singular megagenius in that he propels Wakanda...already ahead of everyone else in the world...ahead another century ON TOP of their already peerless advances in every field.

In my fanfic, I point out that Wakanda is the only place on Earth that was not conquered by The Slave Engine that enslaved The Inhumans, and both remained free from Doctor Doom's version of same, PLUS T'Challa destroyed Doctor Doom's Slave Engine during the Emperor Doom saga. This feat is the single action that elevated T'Challa in Doom's eyes to a threat on par with or superior to Reed Richards to Doom himself. Shuri innovated by creating Reality Erg defenses that protect Wakanda from subjugation in alternate realities, which T'Challa further improved with Shadow Physics and Reality Particles...the branch of science that I believe that T'Challa would have innovated after his experience recreating the 616 via The Reality Infinity Gem...to ensure Wakanda remained unconquered in EVERY reality that didn't see Wakanda as an aggressive Galaxy controlling interstellar Empire of ignoble purpose.

However. Consider this, Ezyo: When you write this right here:

"Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth".--EZYO

Are you not acknowledging that by being a megagenius polymath of such proportions and achievement that said achievements propel T'Challa into the literal most gifted of each field of human intellect, and compounding this by stating that the result of such multitiered megagenius of T'Challa's is that he is the most ingenious person on Earth...that T'Challa is ALSO the SMARTEST person on Earth, by being amongst the most clever, the most inventive, the most original of intellects in every possible human endeavor?

The world record setting Decathlete is considered by almost every other athlete to be the greatest athlete in the world. Bar none.

Remember my Academic Decathlon example? Well...Following that line of reasoning? Then T'Challa being the most formidable megagenius polymath makes him the most formidable megagenius period. Bar none. T'Challa's crown is a collection of the most vaunted achievements, even if some would argue that he holds no single pinnacle achievement superior to all others in said crown [ like the Decathlete holds no single World Record superior to that of any of the Olympic specialists who compete in only a single event of the 10 events which Decathletes must masterfully compete in over a brutal 2 day span ].

Ingenious definition:

adjective
characterized by cleverness or originality of invention or construction:
an ingenious machine.
cleverly inventive or resourceful:
an ingenious press agent.
Obsolete .
intelligent; showing genius

Shrewd
shrewd
/SHro͞od/
adjective
1.
having or showing sharp powers of judgment; astute.
"she was shrewd enough to guess the motive behind his gesture"
synonyms:   astute, sharp-witted, sharp, acute, intelligent, clever, alert, canny, media-savvy, perceptive, perspicacious, observant, discriminating, sagacious, sage, wise, far-seeing, far-sighted; More
2.
ARCHAIC

Also, in my opinion, being "smart" is not the same as being "clever", which is NOT the same as being "intelligent" and especially none of the foregoing is equivalent to being "wise".

"The main difference between smart and clever is that clever connotes a sense of originality or ingenuity whereas smart doesn't. Smart is also used to describe the physical appearance of an individual. Smart refers to being intelligent and having the ability to apply the intelligence to practical situations."

"As for intelligence, it is the development of any progressive tendency (Carl Sagan) and is a general ability that can be broken down into categories. There is physical intelligence that sports people possess; inter-personal intelligence which is the ability to develop networks of relations; intra-personal intelligence which is the ability to tune ones emotions and communicate intra-personally; analytical intelligence which is often measured using the IQ instrument...."

I'm saying the above because noting T'Challa's shrewdness, his ingenuity, doesn't actually refer to his INTELLIGENCE...but rather other combined facets of T'Challa's personality type, personal inclinations, life experience which funnel his megagenius into unique and specific expressions.

Now here's where the specific ranking of such peak intellects is important, and which I think we should all consider regarding the supergenius and megagenius intellects...and that is: at what areas of intellect are the supergeniuses NOT supergenius at? In which areas would T'Challa remain a supergenius whereas all others in the super or megagenius Intellect areas would not? Let's look at the 9 Intelligences again:

(https://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/89f4291e-4267-49e2-b0eb-708f9677fbd1/678cab8d-ac8a-4277-8639-0263ca5279e3.png)


Looking at the graphic above, there literally isn't a single area that T'Challa's supergenius falls off at. If there is one major exception to this statement of mine in the minds of most of those who don't know who and what T'Challa is? That exception would be The Intrapersonal Intellgience.

 T'Challa's been outraged by not being properly presented with the feats reflective of his Intrapersonal Intelligence since his inception. T'Challa most definitely has the ability to "see" the components of say any poisons or bacteria or virus that enters his system, and consciously eradicate and/or alter same at a cellular level. This is literally an extension of Tibetan monks' ability to control the functions of the so-called "autonervous system". T'Challa most definitely can control his heartbeat, blood pressure, regularity and depth/shallowness of breath, etc in ways that would make the Bene Gesserit of the DUNE series have shiver me timbers envygasms. Therefore this right here...written by the otherwise magnificent David Liss...should NEVER have happened:

(https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/blackpantherkraven4.jpg)

(https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/blackpantherkraven8.jpg?w=590&h=556)


T'Challa's mind [ without any tech or assistance whatsoever ] would be very difficult to pierce by even the most potent telepaths, and it would be extremely dangerous for them to make the attempt. Psionically or spiritually dominating T'Challa would be out of the question for any but the more powerful cosmic beings...and even they would be very hard pressed to do such a thing, as Wakanda would have dedicated much of her more than one million years of existence to ensuring that the likes of Phoenix, Star Brand, the Kree, Odin, The Mad Celestials, The Eternals, etc could not overrun them. Therefore, The Shadow King has no chance of overcoming T'Challa as he was credited with doing in WORLDS APART by Yost [ liked the story, btw ]...and that's why I specifically targeted that occurrence in my fanfic and explained it away.

Consider Reed Richards. There is no question that Reed is a supergenius in the nonphysical intellectual areas...but not even in all of those areas is he a supergenius [ Reed doesn't get along with people in general especially well, so he's not a supergenius in the area of intellect that is referred to by Europeans as INTERPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE. In fact? Reed would "only" be slightly above average there ]. Whereas Reed would be a formidable musician because of his mastery of math and logic would allow him to put on incredible displays of music. But moreso along the lines of European classical music, operas, etc. His jazz would be technically correct and good, but lack that oomph that comes from seamless merging of jazz magic with purely emotional connection and expression.

Consider Tony Starks. While Starks is not as vaunted in intellect in the sheer Logic and Mathematical Intelligence department which is Reed Richards' pinnacle expression of Intelligence and probably the area that he outshines all others in [ if you follow the dominant 616 canon ], Starks mops the floor with Reed via INTERPERSONAL INTELLIGENCE. And Starks CAN FIGHT PRETTY DARN WELL, clearly better than the average person, and better than most SHIELD trained agents, etc. Therefore Starks has a higher overall KINESTHETIC INTELLIGENCE than Reed Richards. Also, Starks would be better at jazz than Reed, but at best only equal to Reed in classical music. Both would be good with Natural Intelligence but neither could see T'Challa, and I don't think that such is open to serious debate.

Even though Starks and Reed are probably equal in the area of being extremely gifted surgeons, is there a true argument that either are better surgeons than Doctor Strange? I would say there is an excellent argument for any of the three as pinnacle surgeons...although, most would lean toward Doctor Strange because being a surgeon is specifically his "thing".

Do you see where I'm going with this? I think that specifically breaking down the components of each of the Intelligences, and giving real world plus 'comic book" examples of the operations of each Intelligence, allows us to better define how each of the big brains on 616 Earth would perform in each area.  This in turn would allow us to more clearly determine which of the Big Brains is actually the most "Intelligent" and why...and/or what factors outside of what is narrowly referred to as "The Intelligences" actually tip the scales in favor of or against such and such character, and why.

If we do this? I think that the end result will pretty clearly show that T'Challa holds the edge over everyone.

If I understand RH right? There is an even more potent argument that could say that T'Challa would, should and does outshine them all...because RH shrewdly propelled Wakanda ITSELF some 1000 years ahead of the rest of the world IN EVERYTHING, and cast The Black Panther as the pinnacle expression of all that is desirable in the Wakandan culture? It stands to reason that The Black Panthers are all the recipients of the most advanced, most rigorous, most unforgiving training in every field of human endeavor that THE LEADING CIVILIZATION OF EARTH CAN OFFER, and therefore? T'Challa is literally superior to almost everyone or literally everyone inside and outside of Wakanda...IN EVERYTHING. <--It's this position that Hudlin runs with, and he has a very good argument to draw from...especially since history proves that in more ancient times, Afrikan civilizations held precisely this kind of lead over everyone else in reality.

However, I think that...as I said before...T'Challa's most humongous advantage is that he is the most BALANCED megagenius on 616 Earth. Not only is he the pinnacle intellect or amongst the Top 3 pinnacle intellects in everything. Not only is he the shrewdest man on Earth [...which doesn't make him the shrewdest PERSON on Earth, btw...], T'Challa is unendingly clever and without question the WISEST of the megageniuses on Earth.

These last 3? Shrewdness. Cleverness. Wisdom from the spirituality and culture and soul of Wakanda. Are his aces in the hole which imo prevents him from falling off the precipices that lured and sent plummeting over their ledges the likes of Doom, Pym, Reed, Starks, and every other intellect except Lunella [ even Ri Ri was deeply struck to her core by the senseless driveby murder of her father; an incident which resonated in particular with T'Challa because of how T'Challa lost T'Chaka ]. In particular, the wisdom imparted to him by both Wakanda the civilization itself via its peerless education system AND the wisdom imparted literally to his soul by his spiritual connection to past Panthers...long before he became KOTD...prevents him from the kinds of excesses we see the other megageniuses fall prey to.

Imo Priest's story of T'Challa's descent into temporary near madness is still canon because T'Challa's descent isn't a fault of personal intelligence or lack of inner resources, but rather the result of the progressive debilitation caused by the inoperable brain aneurysm that T'Challa suffered by being struck a hundred and more times by the Iron Fist in at full power, swung to his skull by the fists of Danny Rand as Iron Fist...and which in my fanfic T'Challa cures with Shadow Physics.

What do yall think?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 25, 2019, 10:52:27 am
Good idea for a thread Supreme. The challenge of T'Challa's intellect stems from the lack of in comic book consistency and the scientific concepts and technological constructs he is credited with. Post Lee/Kirby's intro and some inventions and references to his intellect in Avengers and some other guest appearances there is not much to demonstrate T'Challa's genius. It is thus that we are left with little more than an allusion to such.

Black Panther's primary writers McGregor, Priest, Hudlin and Coates chose not focus on his scientific and technological prowess. It was Maberry, Liss, Hickman and Ewing who showcased such groundbreaking discoveries as Shadow Physics, Mutant Gene Suppression, energy gauntlets and an interstellar translocation device. Richards, Stark, Pym are often seen working on new tech and engaged in scientific research consistently. As such their prowess and inventions are used and/or mentioned through the Marvel universe.

The Black Panther has to be seen doing stuff. Richards, Stark, Pym and Doom all earned their super genius posts. How T'Challa could distinguish himself and stay within cannon while not artificially displacing the for mentioned geniuses would be to focus on the scientific breakthroughs, new technologies and mystical application achieved through vibranium.  It will be very satisfying to witness a Black Panther's renaissance in which he is consistently shown as a polymath, master martial artist, brilliant strategist, spiritual, mys tical adept and romantic lead in the pages of his own comic book.


Outstanding points as usual, brother TURE . I really enjoyed this post. I will return later with a response. Thank you for chiming in on this topic which I think is very important, but deeply underserved due to a lack of understanding about T'Challa as a character.

For example, I agree with Priest regarding the fact that T'Challa doesn't really need to megatech it out to be extremely formidable. I think that an approach which would be more rewarding for the reader and more challenging and fun for the writer is showing that T'Challa already had most everyone beat with what most readers and heroes consider to be T'Challa's "standard" gear.  T'Challa himself has all kinds of shrewdness, skills, abilities, and extraordinary prep that he already has ready to go that neither friend nor foe are aware of him having...until it becomes necessary for him to show his hand. That's why in my fanfic I showed T'Challa handling Saralynth the Cruel without need for anything other than what he already had on him, or could call to him at will.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/663070/chapters/1217197 (https://archiveofourown.org/works/663070/chapters/1217197)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 28, 2019, 06:39:46 am
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 28, 2019, 11:09:10 am
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)


Another very good point, brother KIP LEWIS. I've thought about this particular argument back when R to the H was writing BP, and while I think it's a understandable notion that many have regarding Doom being as smart as or smarter than both T'Challa and Reed...I think it's more of a reflection of both their overall lack of understanding of the various "Intelligences", the a result of centuries of bias from the European cultural perspective regarding the more prized and favored forms of intelligence, and most importantly the misunderstanding that schooling actually enhances one's intelligence [ it doesn't ] rather than provides skills, information and drills that SHARPEN the tools of one's intelligence viapractice. In the same way that certain workouts...when combined with the natural gifts of the body...result in overall superior fitness for anyone, but the specific physical gifts of each person is what determines where in the continuum of fitness one resides. Due to their inherited DNA and factors like healthy lifestyles? One person could become superfit from a workout that provides another person with "mere" fitness.

This is what I believe seprates T'Challa from Doom. Doom reaching the heights that he reached WITHOUT the peerless education that T'Challa received is actually a reflection of how much greater Wakanda is than any other civilization...as RH intended...rather than the result of actual collective superior intelligence by Doom.

If we review "only" 9 of the Intelligences that Europeans prize [ again, our ancestors believed there were at least 15 of what in this area would be called "Intelligences" from the Euro perspective ], we can see that Doom's primary Intelligence is Logical Mathematical. Like all the pinnacle supergeniuses, he ranks at genius level...less than supergenius, but still formdiable... in several other Intelligences. And this is where he falls to T'Challa's comprehensive supergenius.

(https://blog.adioma.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/9-types-of-intelligence-infographic.png)

T'Challa is a supergenius in every area. His intelligence doesn't fall off, because he was BORN a supergenius in every area. Whereas other supergeniuses like Shuri, Doom, Starks, Reed, ARE NOT supergeniuses in every area. They're supergeniuses in one or at most several areas, and geniuses in most of the others.

 Doom? Very clearly IS NOT a "Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence" supergenius. T'Challa, however, IS such a Super Genius. Thinking Spatially? T'Challa's Interpersonal Genius is such that he was able to develop his own keen senses to the level that it is on par with the likes of Wolverine [ and even probably superior to Wolverine in the area of sight ]...which T'Challa also uses as an expression of the interconnecting Intelligence unifying Intrapersonal and Spatial Intelligence. Because surely T'Challa's clearly superior senses would allow T'Challa to perceive the world in sharply and vastly greater detail than Doom himself could hope to achieve, and that would in turn yield information to school and groom his Intelligence in ways that Doom cannot equal, which results in T'Challa outperforming Doom in both Intrapersonal AND Spatial Intelligence. Some may say that Doom's study of Magic gives him a unique Intrapersonal Intelligence which is superior to that which T'Challa has. I disagree, because it's clear that Doom learned magic from studying tomes, etc. which in and of itself is a formidable feat.

However, not only did T'Challa prove himself capable of doing the same under Maberry's pen, T'Challa is part of the lineage of Panthers so he is literally living in a continuum wherein magic, tech, ka and the vicissitudes of the flesh and spirit are expressed in a unique gestalt. T'Challa lives a reality that Doom has to learn via magic theorems. To make my point clear regarding the difference here? Doom studies the Pythagorean Theorem. T'Challa? Created mathematics AND the pyramids whose engineers Pythagoras plagiarized and coopted the credit from by stealing their formula and placing his name upon it.

 I don't think there would be much resistance to the notion that T'Challa is a supergenius in Music. Even Europeans pretty much acknowledge the universal affinity that we Afrikans have with Music. However, that single category alone is much more comprehensive and multifaceted in its teaching affect...both with and without a teacher. Music is known to enhance the qualities of each and every other Intelligence listed, and even several of those NOT listed [ like Spiritual Intelligence ]. And nobody does Music like we Afrikans. Natural Intelligence? There are maaaanny examples of Afrikans not only being the supreme hunters, naturalists, etc. but also being respectful enough of nature, sensitive enough to Natural Law and the equilibrium that must be maintained between all living things to NOT overhunt or overexploit into extinction animals, arable land, herbs, etc. And if there is any further doubt about this? Well, Wakandans emphatically displayed their Naturalist Intelligence via finding, recognizing and cultivating many exceptional herbs,  culminating in the garden of The Heart Shaped Herbs which have no peer on Earth. Game. Set. Match. Pinnacle examples of each of the other forms of Intelligence are also to be found in Wakanda, but I think that the above pretty much sets the tone and the table...so to speak... that ends this facet of the argument.

Let's use what Europeans call "Fluid Intelligence". The history of "Fluid Intelligence" from a Euro perspective is as follows:

"All the way back in 1963, a psychologist named Raymond Cattell noticed that there are two distinct forms of intelligence that he wanted to identify and study. The first type is what he called fluid intelligence.

Fluid intelligence is defined as the ability to solve new problems, use logic in new situations, and identify patterns.

Using a complicated subway system in a new city is a good example of how you might need to use fluid intelligence. The first time you use the subway, you have to figure out the names of the stops you need, which train will take you there, if you need to transfer in the middle, and so on. This type of intelligence is sort of like 'street smarts,' where you need to figure things out that moment and adapt to your situation.

One way you can think of fluid intelligence is that you'll use it slightly differently each time you're in a new situation, so it's flexible and adaptive - like water in its fluid form."

There is a much older...by several thousand years...and much more comprehensive expression of this same notion which we Afrikans called by many names over the millennia in our many languages, but which is still preserved in the Njia Uhuru Kipura of my family as "Akili Ya Ufahamu"...[ "The Mind of Understanding" ]. Akili ya Ufahamu is a critical form of Intelligence which we used in everything, including Hunting, Animal Husbandry, politics, social interactions, selecting a mate, the bridging operation to meditation and a rich inner life, etc.  as well as what's now called "street smarts". We show this same advanced "Fluid Intelligence" when doing things like freestyle rap, or any form of spontaneous application of Intelligence to resolve a problem or display a skill that generally advances us toward a perceived goal

Akili Ya Ufahamu combined with Hekima Ya Mwili [ "Wisdom of the Body", equivalent to what Europeans call "Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence" ] are the foundational Intelligences from my perspective, because it's from a combination of these two Intelligences that all other Intelligences can be reached and enhanced, but the converse isn't true.

Under Hickman's pen, T'Challa himself alluded to the difference between their Intelligence, their Wisdom, in this amazing exchange wherein T'Challa specifically tells Doom that Doom...even as GOD DOOM...simply lacks the vision to create the TRUE Wakanda...whereas with The Reality Gem...a power, let us not forget, is INFERIOR to that which GOD DOOM wielded...T'Challa recreated the TRUE WAKANDA AAAND resurrected much of the 616 MCU itself.

(https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/black-panther-and-namor-vs-doctor-doom-secret-wars-1.jpg)

Now how does this apply to the issue of T'Challa and Doom's Intelligences and who is 'smarter"? The shortest simplest answers are:

1. In Doom's self education, he used the European model and advanced to the highest point he has ever been...God Doom of Battleworld...and saved all of what remained of Existence.

2. T'Challa? Used the Infinity Gauntlet and his KOTD powers...both combined in ways which both Doom and T'Challa knew to be significantly inferior to the might Doom used...to both tax Doom to the point which God Doom himself admitted that T'Challa succeeded at reducing Doom to merely physical wanton violence [ itself a feat that is nearly impossible to achieve ]
(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111135171/5435305-0109541796-49998.jpg)

only for T'Challa to prove his superior collective overall Intelligence by flexing a combination of T'Challa's Intelligences with his Akili Ya Ufahamu aka Fluid Intelligence, his Ufumbuzi Wa Kibinafsi [ "Personal Solutions" ] aka Cleverness, Shrewdness [ having or showing sharp powers of judgement; astuteness...which can be seen as a subset of Logical Intelligence ] and Fluid Intelligence [ the emphasis on UNIQUE solutions via Fluid Intelligence, Cleverness and Shrewdness is something that is very prized and very emphasized in every walk of life in every stripe in Afrikan culture ]  by using INFERIOR powers and instruments to STILL OUTPERFORM AND OUTSMART DOOM...

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e7f26bf07d8e302e292c4b3b3c019861.webp)


and this is imo the supreme example of T'Challa's greater and superior overall Intelligence visavis Doom. Because T'Challa...when T'Challa IS NOT at his pinnacle expression of himself...is STILL ABLE TO OUTSMART AND OUTMANEUVER DOOM WHEN DOOM IS GOD DOOM, THE LITERALLY MOST POWERFUL AND MOST GIFTED, GREATEST VERSION OF DOOM THERE HAS BEEN THUS FAR.  This I believe not only comes from T'Challa's greater overall Intelligence, but also from the Afrikan cultural insistence upon Ufumbuzi wa Kinifasi: one not only has to know and be highly proficient with prior solutions to issues, one has to develop one's own unique solution to the same problem and/or interrelated problems.

I believe that RH's fictional Wakanda...unburdened by the yoke of colonialism...never yielded its vast cultural lead upon the world, and developed the means to cultivate the collective Intelligences of Wakandans to be the supreme intelligence of citizenry in human history, and The Black Panthers are the supreme supergeniuses of human history.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ezyo on April 28, 2019, 11:54:11 am
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)

I understand the reason. Because also in the original versions of Lee/Kirby and Priest, Tchalla was sent to the outside world to get a larger exposure to in order to bring tust back to Wakanda on top of his Wakandan education.
Which is fine but I think of Wakanda is so advanced it better for to be from their own making and not needing outside influence.

That being said, again, if I were writing BP i would address this by showing that though he had access to all that information, being groomed since birth he had to learn a ton, and even with the educational system some of those methods also involved him coming up with things his own, on top of his walk about journey, to get exposure to the outside world meant he was on his own to come up with his own ideas and teach himself how to survive. Something that is done at a young age to establish self-sufficiency and relying on ones innate ability and creativity. After that's established then they receive the vast wealth that is Wakandan education and resources. Basically you prove that it is the man(or woman) who is great, not the resources at their disposal.

This again goes back to how Tchalla gets his major feat. He advances Wakanda further then anyone else in Wakandan history.  Doom may be "smarter" in a sense then Tchalla. But I would more so say different motivations then actually being more intelligent. Doom is arrogant because he came from nothing and made something. Tchalla had to prove he was more then his birthright, so the way they rule and do  more for his people and those around him. Hence the motivation that propels Wakanda to being only a century behind the other advanced races.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 28, 2019, 05:39:59 pm
I would say that in Priest book, it was Tchalla who upgraded Wakanda to the 21st century, I would credit nearly all of the advancements we see in Priest BP as evidence of T'Challas genius. N'yami motherships, doomsday Panthers, his standard gear. Etc Iwould give credit to T'Challa.

Hudlin makes it trickier for sure by advancing Wakanda as a 10k unconquered power House that's been ahead since day one. That could of been mitigated better by having T'Challa advance Wakanda further them any other Black panther prior, such as a century jump ahead the likes of which we see advanced alien races taking note of earth, specifically Wakanda and noting that Wakanda will be responsible for Earth catching up to those civilizations technology and how Wakanda is maybe a century behind if that.

Thats what I would do if I were writing BP. I wouldn't necessarily need to say Tchalla is the smartest at any given field, but I would make him a jack of all trades master of none type that can fit into multiple categories of super genius, but isn't necessarily number 1 in them but can easily keep up with said characters. HOWEVER, he would be the shrewdest man alive for sure and the most underestimated man alive which would be due to being the most ingenuitive person on earth.


Hudlin's change made it trickier for a reason that is often overlook.  He changed T'Challa's starting point.  Now, his intellect is the product of the best educational system and resources on earth (and even in some places, beyond earth), rather than being self-taught, seeking education in real world options.   Compare that to Dr. Doom who lived as a nomad, had no real formal education, no resources, no good teachers.  He's completely self-taught.  For Doom to end up in the same league as T'Challa (not even having to ahead of T'challa), means he's actually might be smarter.  How far would Doom be if he had T'Challa's upbringing?

BTW, at least one of Marvel's writers of the Fantastic Four says Doom is smarter than Reed.  Marvel villains are supposed to be ahead of the heroes.  (It's his arrogance that undoes him, not Reed's superior intellect.)

I understand the reason. Because also in the original versions of Lee/Kirby and Priest, Tchalla was sent to the outside world to get a larger exposure to in order to bring tust back to Wakanda on top of his Wakandan education.
Which is fine but I think of Wakanda is so advanced it better for to be from their own making and not needing outside influence.

That being said, again, if I were writing BP i would address this by showing that though he had access to all that information, being groomed since birth he had to learn a ton, and even with the educational system some of those methods also involved him coming up with things his own, on top of his walk about journey, to get exposure to the outside world meant he was on his own to come up with his own ideas and teach himself how to survive. Something that is done at a young age to establish self-sufficiency and relying on ones innate ability and creativity. After that's established then they receive the vast wealth that is Wakandan education and resources. Basically you prove that it is the man(or woman) who is great, not the resources at their disposal.

This again goes back to how Tchalla gets his major feat. He advances Wakanda further then anyone else in Wakandan history.  Doom may be "smarter" in a sense then Tchalla. But I would more so say different motivations then actually being more intelligent. Doom is arrogant because he came from nothing and made something. Tchalla had to prove he was more then his birthright, so the way they rule and do  more for his people and those around him. Hence the motivation that propels Wakanda to being only a century behind the other advanced races.



I VERY VERY MUCH AGREE WITH THE ABOVE. So much so, that in my fanfiction years ago I wrote:

"... In fact, part of T'Challa's mission profile when he was a Prince and entertaining the Western European Powers with the farcical notion that they had any hope of providing T'Challa with an 'education' that would not have been derided and outperformed in every way humanly possible by our 6 year olds...from a hundred years ago...was to track and observe the particulars of strategically stashed Vibranium caches to ensure that they had piqued the interest of and/or ensnared their intended prey..."--D'CIGGS

https://archiveofourown.org/works/663070/chapters/1214001 (https://archiveofourown.org/works/663070/chapters/1214001)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 29, 2019, 04:54:59 am
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 

I think it's like the word love.  In English we have one word for it; the Greeks have (i think) five different words for it, for example, one for sex and another for brotherly love.  For other kinds of intelligence, they used different descriptors.

Another way to look at it comparing it to strength.  Nobody ever calls a fast runner--a strong man, but he or she is strong.  It's just a different set of muscles than a weight lifter.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on April 29, 2019, 08:13:45 am
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 


Kirk?   A tactical genius?  ???

Intelligence in Star Trek lore is evaluated by ideology & behavior.

For example, Captain Kirk is Human thus his intelligence & behavior is driven by curiosity and adaptability which would explain why Humans are so dominate in the Star Trek Universe.  I've heard Kirk described by many as reckless, sometimes unpredictable and most times prepared to meet opportunities.

Spock is much smarter than Kirk because he is Vulcan but would never make the decisions nor agree with Kirk if it isn't logical.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 29, 2019, 07:39:30 pm
Regarding the different kinds of intelligence--I agree, is a much broader category than people tend to think--one does have to keep in mind that the statement of Marvel's smartest is a product of the 40s to 70s US culture, more than even Western Culture and the idea of that science is the end all and be all of life.  Scientists were always the ones in control in American fiction.  At that time, intelligence was pretty much limited to Scientific Smarts.  From Doc Savage to Lex Luthor--intelligence was pretty much defined as scientific knowledge.  Other forms of intelligence are given different names.  Look at Star Trek.  Spock is called the smart one--he's the science officer, but Kirk is a tactical genius.  He's extremely intelligent too, but he's never viewed as intelligent. 


Kirk?   A tactical genius?  ???

Intelligence in Star Trek lore is evaluated by ideology & behavior.

For example, Captain Kirk is Human thus his intelligence & behavior is driven by curiosity and adaptability which would explain why Humans are so dominate in the Star Trek Universe.  I've heard Kirk described by many as reckless, sometimes unpredictable and most times prepared to meet opportunities.

Spock is much smarter than Kirk because he is Vulcan but would never make the decisions nor agree with Kirk if it isn't logical.


I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on April 29, 2019, 09:26:23 pm
I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.






O.K...

I was going by the dialogue from 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' where Kirk is getting chewed out by his superior officer.

Everything that officer was telling Kirk about himself was true.

--- but, if you're going by that metric you posted, I can't argue with that.  :-\

Regarding Vulcans?  I believe Vulcans are intellectually far superior than Humans (they discovered warp tech before Humans did), but what holds them back are decisions determined by logic.  I believe the reasoning behind Spock following Kirk is to understand his uncanny knack for being lucky... all the time.  :-\
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 30, 2019, 04:48:38 am
I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.






O.K...

I was going by the dialogue from 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' where Kirk is getting chewed out by his superior officer.

Everything that officer was telling Kirk about himself was true.

--- but, if you're going by that metric you posted, I can't argue with that.  :-\

Regarding Vulcans?  I believe Vulcans are intellectually far superior than Humans (they discovered warp tech before Humans did), but what holds them back are decisions determined by logic.  I believe the reasoning behind Spock following Kirk is to understand his uncanny knack for being lucky... all the time.  :-\


NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 30, 2019, 04:04:05 pm
I actually DO think that Kirk is a tactical genius, although I see where you're coming from above, Brother Battle. Imo? Kirk displayed his tactical genius on NUMEROUS occasions. Kirk outstmarting and outmaneuvering Khan, Kirk is the only one to beat the Kobayashi Maru test, Kirk saw through many illusions and shams, tricks and manipulations attempted by many alien and human adversaries.  Imo Kirk is both a straight up genius AND a tactical genius. But that's just imo. Because in the old skool FASA role playing game? Kirk's intelligence was 84, the average human INT was 40, the average Starfleet Officer's INT was 71. So Kirk is clearly far smarter than the average human and smarter than the most Starfleet Officers, too. The max human INT was 100, so Kirk was up there.

Spock's INT was 102. Just to make the point.

But Kirk has Charisma of 94 and Luck of 98. Sooo...Kirk? Would be clearly the overall superior leader between himself and Spock. That's why, imo, Spock followed Kirk. Not that other way around.






O.K...

I was going by the dialogue from 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' where Kirk is getting chewed out by his superior officer.

Everything that officer was telling Kirk about himself was true.

--- but, if you're going by that metric you posted, I can't argue with that.  :-\

Regarding Vulcans?  I believe Vulcans are intellectually far superior than Humans (they discovered warp tech before Humans did), but what holds them back are decisions determined by logic.  I believe the reasoning behind Spock following Kirk is to understand his uncanny knack for being lucky... all the time.  :-\


NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)

While I do like a lot of the action and comedic interplay, as well as glimpses into the youthful pasts of characters that I see in the Abrams universe? The criticism that KIP just dropped is also my criticism. I think that Abrams completely missed the point of the character of Romulans, for instance. They're devious brilliant ruthless tricksters. Imo Abrams had them behaving more like Klingons are supposed to behave.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on April 30, 2019, 07:41:30 pm
NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)




I believe Abrams gave a refreshing perspective that was much needed considering that Kirk gets away with a lot of _____.
I mean, a lot!  :)

Mr. Abrams version of the Star Trek series is gorgeous (visually) and the stories captures issues in a context, nature & substance, for this day and age, what that Universe would look today that everyone can relate to.

In 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' we get to see Kirk in the middle of a ménage à trois...
---with alien chicks!

How many times anyone wanted to see that?  (https://i.imgur.com/o6mZ5bo.gif)




While I do like a lot of the action and comedic interplay, as well as glimpses into the youthful pasts of characters that I see in the Abrams universe? The criticism that KIP just dropped is also my criticism.






Supreme gets it.  (https://i.imgur.com/VNRj4V7.gif)



I think?  ???
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 01, 2019, 01:33:27 pm
NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)




I believe Abrams gave a refreshing perspective that was much needed considering that Kirk gets away with a lot of _____.
I mean, a lot!  :)

Mr. Abrams version of the Star Trek series is gorgeous (visually) and the stories captures issues in a context, nature & substance, for this day and age, what that Universe would look today that everyone can relate to.

In 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' we get to see Kirk in the middle of a ménage à trois...
---with alien chicks!

How many times anyone wanted to see that?  (https://i.imgur.com/o6mZ5bo.gif)




While I do like a lot of the action and comedic interplay, as well as glimpses into the youthful pasts of characters that I see in the Abrams universe? The criticism that KIP just dropped is also my criticism.






Supreme gets it.  (https://i.imgur.com/VNRj4V7.gif)



I think?  ???

Yes, he gets it.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 01, 2019, 03:52:49 pm
NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)




I believe Abrams gave a refreshing perspective that was much needed considering that Kirk gets away with a lot of _____.
I mean, a lot!  :)

Mr. Abrams version of the Star Trek series is gorgeous (visually) and the stories captures issues in a context, nature & substance, for this day and age, what that Universe would look today that everyone can relate to.

In 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' we get to see Kirk in the middle of a ménage à trois...
---with alien chicks!

How many times anyone wanted to see that?  (https://i.imgur.com/o6mZ5bo.gif)




While I do like a lot of the action and comedic interplay, as well as glimpses into the youthful pasts of characters that I see in the Abrams universe? The criticism that KIP just dropped is also my criticism.






Supreme gets it.  (https://i.imgur.com/VNRj4V7.gif)



I think?  ???

Like I said, I liked the Abramsverse movie, but my point is shouldn't use it to make a comment about ST.  Especially since I specifically was referring to how 40s through 70s American fiction viewed intelligence, so obviously I'm talking about the orginally series in the context of how the 60s viewed Spock and Kirk.  Spock was the smart one bc he was the scientist.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 01, 2019, 03:56:27 pm
(http://projectfandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Black-Panther-and-Reed-e1443931922144.jpg)

this is yet another signal difference between T'Challa and Reed and imo it's a classic example of the difference between the SHREWDNESS that T'Challa has [ bolstered vastly by the cultural maturity which is the bedrock of Wakandan cultural philosophy from which all others spring ] which results in T'Challa oftentimes demonstrating even greater astuteness than the vaunted mind of Reed Richards.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 01, 2019, 03:57:24 pm
NEVER use the Abrams universe to justify any position in Star Trek.  (At least that's my opinion and probably the opinion of many in fans.  I even liked the Abrams movies, but he tended to exaggerate a few characteristics and missed the point on others.)




I believe Abrams gave a refreshing perspective that was much needed considering that Kirk gets away with a lot of _____.
I mean, a lot!  :)

Mr. Abrams version of the Star Trek series is gorgeous (visually) and the stories captures issues in a context, nature & substance, for this day and age, what that Universe would look today that everyone can relate to.

In 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' we get to see Kirk in the middle of a ménage à trois...
---with alien chicks!

How many times anyone wanted to see that?  (https://i.imgur.com/o6mZ5bo.gif)




While I do like a lot of the action and comedic interplay, as well as glimpses into the youthful pasts of characters that I see in the Abrams universe? The criticism that KIP just dropped is also my criticism.






Supreme gets it.  (https://i.imgur.com/VNRj4V7.gif)



I think?  ???

Like I said, I liked the Abramsverse movie, but my point is shouldn't use it to make a comment about ST.  Especially since I specifically was referring to how 40s through 70s American fiction viewed intelligence, so obviously I'm talking about the orginally series in the context of how the 60s viewed Spock and Kirk.  Spock was the smart one bc he was the scientist.


I get this argument, too.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CKW on May 07, 2019, 05:09:23 pm
Supreme...check out Marvel's Leonardo Da Vinci and his role in the Richard's family.  I would like T'Challa to go up against him.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 07, 2019, 08:50:48 pm
Supreme...check out Marvel's Leonardo Da Vinci and his role in the Richard's family.  I would like T'Challa to go up against him.

I just read Marvel's impressive treatment of Da Vinci...as I had NO CLUE that Da Vinci was even part of Marvel.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci_(Earth-616)

Imo T'Challa would effortlessly outclass Da Vinci at everything. Wouldn't be close. Wakandans as a civilization effortlessly produced all of the top 20 megageniuses in every human endeavor [ except apparently magic and psionics ] in every generation of their existence, for 1 million years. At least. Bashenga...1 million years ago...already solved the quandary of time travel. T'Challa...by himself...propelled the entire civilization of Wakanda--already ahead of the rest of the world by 1000 years at least...ahead another 100 years. All by himself.

I would love to take a crack at this story. Because you know what they DIDN'T tell you, but which IS PART OF HISTORY?

The Lamtuna and the Godala...Afrikans miscalled Moors...were the leading lights that caused and propelled The Renaissance. These Lamtuna and Godala were ethnic cousins of the people of Kongo, where many of my family and my family's unique fighting art of Njia Uhuru Kipura can be traced back to. And Wakanda? Definitely impacted the development of Kongo. Look at Wakanda's placement in this map [ even though for some stupid reason they keep switching Wakanda's location in Afrika ]:

(https://preview.redd.it/7qt759z4wae01.jpg?overlay-align=bottom,left&overlay-pad=8,16&crop=1200:628.272251309,smart&overlay-height=0.10&overlay=%2Fv9vyirk6hl221.png%3Fs%3Db466421949eb723078743745ce6421609d7a9c66&width=1200&height=628.272251309&auto=webp&s=2fa359d229e02faf31f679f94c13fbb246663d18)


So, it's not at all a stretch to opine that Wakanda indirectly but purposely aided and guided The Lamtuna and Godala and thereby purposely prompted The Renaissance of Europe, saving about 1/4 of the world's populace and ensuring the population trends that would give support to and add to the flagging number of mutants. The same mutants whom Wakanda and the world would need to battle extraterrestrial and terrestrial threats of the first order...saving valuable Wakandan resources, efforts and lives in the process. 
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 09, 2019, 04:48:34 pm

[even though for some stupid reason they keep switching Wakanda's location in Afrika ]:



Due to the various writers/artists assigned to the Black Panther comicbook, MARVEL has switched the location of Wakanda many times for over 50 years in the comicbooks. 

For years, I got the impression that Wakanda was somewhere in the center of the African continent.

Wakanda  now seems to be located in East Africa.


Regarding Wakanda in relation to the other African nations & the Big Blue Marble? (https://i.imgur.com/RV6exXB.png)

Perhaps, you could pen a world history book of Africa featuring Wakanda for a little hyper-realism fun.  (https://i.imgur.com/0ReXA0j.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 10, 2019, 04:33:22 am

[even though for some stupid reason they keep switching Wakanda's location in Afrika ]:



Due to the various writers/artists assigned to the Black Panther comicbook, MARVEL has switched the location of Wakanda many times for over 50 years in the comicbooks. 

For years, I got the impression that Wakanda was somewhere in the center of the African continent.

Wakanda  now seems to be located in East Africa.


Regarding Wakanda in relation to the other African nations & the Big Blue Marble? (https://i.imgur.com/RV6exXB.png)

Perhaps, you could pen a world history book of Africa featuring Wakanda for a little hyper-realism fun.  (https://i.imgur.com/0ReXA0j.gif)

Don't you know that's intentional! How else do you think they kept the kingdom hidden for so long.  It moves.  They have their own version of the reality stone and periodically they move Wakanda, keeping everyone guessing where it really is. GRIN
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 10, 2019, 06:56:23 am
Don't you know that's intentional! How else do you think they kept the kingdom hidden for so long.  It moves.  They have their own version of the reality stone and periodically they move Wakanda, keeping everyone guessing where it really is. GRIN



That would an interesting concept to pull off in a movie.




Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 11, 2019, 01:14:10 am
Don't you know that's intentional! How else do you think they kept the kingdom hidden for so long.  It moves.  They have their own version of the reality stone and periodically they move Wakanda, keeping everyone guessing where it really is. GRIN



That would an interesting concept to pull off in a movie.

Yall remember this exchange from my fanfic years ago? Chapter 2. D'Ciggs [ T'Challa's brother, a family member who was listed back in the '90's but is gone now so I returned him ] and Uncle S'yan the Swift are talking.

And then D'Ciggs broke the silence.

"Storm does not know of the Protocols activated by Doom's attack and The Phoenix's approach, does she?"

"No, nephew, she doesn't."

"So she doesn't know that you were never killed, because flesh transmuted highly enhanced Life Decoy Models replaced you and Mother long before Doom had even the most remote chance of endangering you, me or any of The Royal Family and our key functionaries at every level of government."

"She has no idea, nephew."

"She doesn't know, then, that as part of these protocols--and due to the timely vision supplied by both our great Panther God and the vast preparations done by all previous Panthers, including yourself, my father and my brother--Wakanda's civilization and all of her people would wink into our special Interdimensional Pocket, proof against detection by any means, proof against the passage of Time, the entry of any being, etc. due to our nationwide Quantum Substratum ChronoSpatial Psi Mystic Ka Manipulators? Does she at least know of the Mobility Units and Nationwide Defense Shields...

...no, she doesn't, does she, Uncle? T'Challa didn't inform her because he knew that such knowledge would impact her decision-making once The Phoenix began to make its ineluctable return. And that would remove her from being placed where TChalla wanted her to be placed, should he ever need to invoke The Roguestorm Option."

"You are starting to see the complexities now, my nephew..."

In my fanfic, T'Challa's innovations with Reality Particles [ especially useful against beings like Psycho Man, Nightmare, etc ] and Shadow Physics propelled Wakanda further and faster along almost all lines of tech, magic and ka than all previous Panthers...and this is without his KOTD enhancements.

That's a pretty good explanation for the migration of Wakanda, isn't it? Plus it's a really good way to frustrate the crap out of enemies,and underscore the myth rather than the reality of Wakanda. Make enemies not even know if Wakanda is real, and eventually forget about it...thus the Kingdom of Wakanda can remain hidden, as Stan Lee and Don initially intended.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 11, 2019, 06:24:40 am
>>>Supreme


Shadow physics was one thing I thought was innovative but a nationwide Quantum Substratum ChronoSpatial Psi Mystic Ka Manipulators...? ???

Much like Tony Stark & Pepper's reaction to SHIELD agent Coulson's introduction in Iron Man, you might have to shorten that name to make it easy to package into bite sized pieces to digest. (https://i.imgur.com/ok4cNV6.png) (https://i.imgur.com/mKHk6zE.gif)

Y'know what?   I appreciate these ideas. It's usually the wild ideas that are far more challenging to tackle that reaps the biggest rewards.

That's why I enjoy coming back to HEF because like Mr. Hudlin,  you guys are driven to create stuff & stay busy.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ezyo on May 11, 2019, 06:47:39 am

[even though for some stupid reason they keep switching Wakanda's location in Afrika ]:



Due to the various writers/artists assigned to the Black Panther comicbook, MARVEL has switched the location of Wakanda many times for over 50 years in the comicbooks. 

For years, I got the impression that Wakanda was somewhere in the center of the African continent.

Wakanda  now seems to be located in East Africa.


Regarding Wakanda in relation to the other African nations & the Big Blue Marble? (https://i.imgur.com/RV6exXB.png)

Perhaps, you could pen a world history book of Africa featuring Wakanda for a little hyper-realism fun.  (https://i.imgur.com/0ReXA0j.gif)

Don't you know that's intentional! How else do you think they kept the kingdom hidden for so long.  It moves.  They have their own version of the reality stone and periodically they move Wakanda, keeping everyone guessing where it really is. GRIN

This here, would of been my guess and how I would tackle this Issue. Wakanda moves, on top of that, Wakandan agents also spread further confusion by making people question it's existence as well through clever deception, further protecting Wakanda. Shadow physics could play a part in that in some form
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 12, 2019, 01:26:58 am
>>>Supreme


Shadow physics was one thing I thought was innovative but a nationwide Quantum Substratum ChronoSpatial Psi Mystic Ka Manipulators...? ???

Much like Tony Stark & Pepper's reaction to SHIELD agent Coulson's introduction in Iron Man, you might have to shorten that name to make it easy to package into bite sized pieces to digest. (https://i.imgur.com/ok4cNV6.png) (https://i.imgur.com/mKHk6zE.gif)

Y'know what?   I appreciate these ideas. It's usually the wild ideas that are far more challenging to tackle that reaps the biggest rewards.

That's why I enjoy coming back to HEF because like Mr. Hudlin,  you guys are driven to create stuff & stay busy.



You're RIGHT! That whole Quantum SubStratum thing DEFINITELY needs to be broken down. And if we did so? We'd of course build an acronym drawn from the language and words of our Afrikan people, not English.

The abbreviation could be: U.A.U.W.   which stands for Ulimwengu [ World/Universe ] Akili [ Mind ] Uchawi [ Magic ] Wakati [ Time ] and is pronounced similarly to the word "WOW", almost like how the Brazilians say "Wow" as "Uau".

Bruthas rock with that?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 12, 2019, 02:04:22 am
>>>Supreme


This term was mentioned in the movie, 'Black Panther' referring to Killmonger after he surrenders to the Wakandan authorities and announces he wants to take the throne:

   
What is Betuna?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 13, 2019, 04:39:19 am
>>>Supreme


This term was mentioned in the movie, 'Black Panther' referring to Killmonger after he surrenders to the Wakandan authorities and announces he wants to take the throne:

   
What is Betuna?

My brother, I have wracked my brain about this word, but I have no idea as to what it means.  I do hope that we can unravel its mystery, though.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 13, 2019, 05:58:35 am
>>>Supreme


This term was mentioned in the movie, 'Black Panther' referring to Killmonger after he surrenders to the Wakandan authorities and announces he wants to take the throne:

   
What is Betuna?

My brother, I have wracked my brain about this word, but I have no idea as to what it means.  I do hope that we can unravel its mystery, though.




When the Wakandan woman called Eric 'Betuna', it must've been something either insulting or humorous 'cause the off-hand remark made the others chuckle.

I'm really fascinated by those kinds of interplay with foreign languages in science fiction cinema. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the average Wakandan is quadrilingual.

The next episode of 'Black Panther' should play on this more often to show how unique & different, yet similar Wakandans are to Americans.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 15, 2019, 09:32:52 am
>>>Supreme


This term was mentioned in the movie, 'Black Panther' referring to Killmonger after he surrenders to the Wakandan authorities and announces he wants to take the throne:

   
What is Betuna?

My brother, I have wracked my brain about this word, but I have no idea as to what it means.  I do hope that we can unravel its mystery, though.




When the Wakandan woman called Eric 'Betuna', it must've been something either insulting or humorous 'cause the off-hand remark made the others chuckle.

I'm really fascinated by those kinds of interplay with foreign languages in science fiction cinema. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the average Wakandan is quadrilingual.

The next episode of 'Black Panther' should play on this more often to show how unique & different, yet similar Wakandans are to Americans.



I like the observations you made above, Battle. I would think that the average Wakandan would easily and fluently speak about 12 languages [remember their multi-thousand year tech lead upon the rest of the world, and their multi-thousand year nationwide practice of essentially benign eugenics so that there are ZERO Wakandans with illnesses, and ALL would qualify as at least low grade geniuses to every other country on Earth ]...including all of the primary languages of the Outworld invaders of Afrika from Europe and Asia, not to mention "exotic" languages like the Deviant Lemurrian language, Atlantean, and intergalactic languages like Kree and Skrull which Wakandans would be required to speak as the premier civilization above sea level on Earth, and the longest. most noteworthy defender of the planet.

T'Challa, Shuri, Hunter, D'Ciggs, and all The Royals speak every language on Earth and all of the native languages of Earth's most common alien visitors. Fluently. Remember how T'Challa wasn't thrown off by the Deviant Lemurian language under CJP's pen? Elimu na ufahamu wa nafsi na hisabati ya lugha...Knowledge and understanding of the soul and mathematics of language...is automatic and carefully ingrained in the people of Wakanda. It's traditional knowledge. Even The Jabari have it.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 15, 2019, 10:10:50 am
I like the observations you made above, Battle. I would think that the average Wakandan would easily and fluently speak about 12 languages [remember their multi-thousand year tech lead upon the rest of the world, and their multi-thousand year nationwide practice of essentially benign eugenics so that there are ZERO Wakandans with illnesses, and ALL would qualify as at least low grade geniuses to every other country on Earth ]...including all of the primary languages of the Outworld invaders of Afrika from Europe and Asia, not to mention "exotic" languages like the Deviant Lemurrian language, Atlantean, and intergalactic languages like Kree and Skrull which Wakandans would be required to speak as the premier civilization above sea level on Earth, and the longest. most noteworthy defender of the planet.

T'Challa, Shuri, Hunter, D'Ciggs, and all The Royals speak every language on Earth and all of the native languages of Earth's most common alien visitors. Fluently. Remember how T'Challa wasn't thrown off by the Deviant Lemurian language under CJP's pen? Elimu na ufahamu wa nafsi na hisabati ya lugha...Knowledge and understanding of the soul and mathematics of language...is automatic and carefully ingrained in the people of Wakanda. It's traditional knowledge. Even The Jabari have it.




I've written this before and I'll write it again:

You are true Black Panther fan, yo!. ;D

YOU should be writing some portion of title someday.   F'real!
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on May 15, 2019, 10:54:09 am
I like the observations you made above, Battle. I would think that the average Wakandan would easily and fluently speak about 12 languages [remember their multi-thousand year tech lead upon the rest of the world, and their multi-thousand year nationwide practice of essentially benign eugenics so that there are ZERO Wakandans with illnesses, and ALL would qualify as at least low grade geniuses to every other country on Earth ]...including all of the primary languages of the Outworld invaders of Afrika from Europe and Asia, not to mention "exotic" languages like the Deviant Lemurrian language, Atlantean, and intergalactic languages like Kree and Skrull which Wakandans would be required to speak as the premier civilization above sea level on Earth, and the longest. most noteworthy defender of the planet.

T'Challa, Shuri, Hunter, D'Ciggs, and all The Royals speak every language on Earth and all of the native languages of Earth's most common alien visitors. Fluently. Remember how T'Challa wasn't thrown off by the Deviant Lemurian language under CJP's pen? Elimu na ufahamu wa nafsi na hisabati ya lugha...Knowledge and understanding of the soul and mathematics of language...is automatic and carefully ingrained in the people of Wakanda. It's traditional knowledge. Even The Jabari have it.




I've written this before and I'll write it again:

You are true Black Panther fan, yo!. ;D

YOU should be writing some portion of title someday.   F'real!
Hmm, one could suggest that isolationist policies over generations could tend to cultivate a certain insularity tending towards a monolingual society at large. Sound familiar... (*ducks and slips out of the room*)  ;)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 15, 2019, 11:21:02 am
Hmm, one could suggest that isolationist policies over generations could tend to cultivate a certain insularity tending towards a monolingual society at large. Sound familiar... (*ducks and slips out of the room*)  ;)





...or maybe the general idealism behind Wakandan citizenry adopting multilingual skills for exclusively business, and political interests.  (https://i.imgur.com/UyLMFfi.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 15, 2019, 07:01:57 pm
Hmm, one could suggest that isolationist policies over generations could tend to cultivate a certain insularity tending towards a monolingual society at large. Sound familiar... (*ducks and slips out of the room*)  ;)





...or maybe the general idealism behind Wakandan citizenry adopting multilingual skills for exclusively business, and political interests.  (https://i.imgur.com/UyLMFfi.gif)

Or a combination of all of the above. Business political cultural etc lingo has canon both by Don Mcpherson with THE BLACK MUSKETEERS [ one of their number was an outstanding businessman ] and CJP with the unnamed government functionary of T'Challa's who was referred to simply as "T'Challa's man". This was the brutha who quietly, unobtrusively delivered pieces of official Wakandan government paper to the proper international dignitaries and government officials that changed the world.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 10:56:41 am
I like the observations you made above, Battle. I would think that the average Wakandan would easily and fluently speak about 12 languages [remember their multi-thousand year tech lead upon the rest of the world, and their multi-thousand year nationwide practice of essentially benign eugenics so that there are ZERO Wakandans with illnesses, and ALL would qualify as at least low grade geniuses to every other country on Earth ]...including all of the primary languages of the Outworld invaders of Afrika from Europe and Asia, not to mention "exotic" languages like the Deviant Lemurrian language, Atlantean, and intergalactic languages like Kree and Skrull which Wakandans would be required to speak as the premier civilization above sea level on Earth, and the longest. most noteworthy defender of the planet.

T'Challa, Shuri, Hunter, D'Ciggs, and all The Royals speak every language on Earth and all of the native languages of Earth's most common alien visitors. Fluently. Remember how T'Challa wasn't thrown off by the Deviant Lemurian language under CJP's pen? Elimu na ufahamu wa nafsi na hisabati ya lugha...Knowledge and understanding of the soul and mathematics of language...is automatic and carefully ingrained in the people of Wakanda. It's traditional knowledge. Even The Jabari have it.




I've written this before and I'll write it again:

You are true Black Panther fan, yo!. ;D

YOU should be writing some portion of title someday.   F'real!


(https://media.tenor.com/images/065eddfd653a4d8e35400b9153ff64f1/tenor.gif)



I would loooove a shot at writing the main BP title, or something. I would first sit down and read every issue of every BP ever written, and find a way to allow ALL OF IT to coexist in some way. shape or form [ even the vomitous TurnCoates series ], and take off from there.

You know what? I would probably suggest that the ENTIRE TurnCoates parts excepting for T'Challa+Ororo happened actually to...drum roll...HAPPY PANTS PANTHER, whom T'Challa brought back even prior to Battleword via a jaunt to The Panther Pavilion and resurrected again post-Battleworld as he resurrected the entire 616 with The Reality Gem. The whole TurnCoates Star Wars rip-off? Alternate universe, the result of this universe encroaching upon ours, and Happy Pants was dispatched to resolve the problem. The whole Rape Camp garbage? Didn't happen in Wakanda proper, but instead in the areas that the Ghudazi from CJP Era occupied, the result of Wakanda's required expansion into and acquisition of territory from Mohannda, following the aggression by the country that its dictator the Gary Coleman lookalike led...was it Mohannda? Whatever it was. Either that country of the other country with the brutal dictator who beat a man with a club as the dictator and made the man repeat that the dictator's office hours were from 9 to 5.

The Dora Milaje and the NO ONE MAN arc would actually be easier to deal with. I'd re-emphasize what's already in canon...The Council of Wakanda. That in and of itself instantly removes even the rationale for the "NO ONE MAN" arc in TurnCoates' writing and instead substitutes something that I would use to justify the existence of the story in canon, and resolve same storyline in a single breath: the group of Dora Milaje who revolted targeted T'Challa because the DM knew that there were TWO T'Challas. The whole country knows there are TWO T'Challas...616 BP and HAPPY PANTS. The Dora Milaje would object to this in a fundamental way, because in their faithful service they are to serve ONE King. Not TWO. And TWO KINGS like T'Challa would DEFINITELY raise fears of too much power being focused into the Royal Family and especially into T'Challa, as two Kings of his accomplishments and unprecedented stature necessarily DOUBLES HIS POWER. Which threatens the traditional Afrikan ultrademocracy and the power of the Council of Wakanda, as well. No Western style government would be approved or acceptable to the DM as they have far too much knowledge of the even greater failings and even more bedrock corrupt governments of Europeans and all nonWakandans are.

I would state that Ramonda Malkia Mkubwa [ "The Great Queen" ] threatened execution of the Dora Milaje not in defense of the Rape Camp or Elders but because they defied her orders. Ramonda Malkia Mkubwa had every intention of executing these traitors to Wakanda, but as usual she was playing the long game with the intention of mercilessly wiping out to the last person the enemies behind the people offending Wakanda and Wakandans in the Rape Camp, as such a thing as a Rape Camp in any area that Wakanda holds sway is literally impossible...unless dark and fearsomely powerful magicks combined with extremely advanced tech is involved. The interruption of the Dora Milaje prevented her from finding the identity of and executing the perpetrator in one swoop.

Turns out? This Rape Camp and its international exposure is part of a feint and maneuver that's part of the plans of a union of The Royal Family's enemies in a Blast from the Past: a vastly upgraded and vastly more dangerous Baron Macabre, Evil Kang the Conqueror, and...drum roll...the return of ACHEBE.

Ramonda would defeat this trio by herself. She's not especially worried about them, but instead she's worried about uncovering the power that's behind them. The power that's seeking to use Evil Kang and Evil Kang's tech to finally establish a beach head on 616 Earth that Wakanda has long denied them...and which they're seeking to prevent Wakanda from detecting this time by sowing discord in the previously unperturbable Wakandan nation interior politics. That heretorfore unnamed power? Would be the new Zombie Queen, the "daughter" of the original Zombie Queen and Zombie King of The Zombie Universe...home of the rampaging Zombie Virus.

It was the Zombie Queen who N'yami slew and whose terrors Queen N'yami [ T'Challa's birth mother ] sacrificed her life to destroy in order to protect T'Challa and the world [  the original Zombie Queen was trying to spiritually infect T'Challa as a fetus, and use fetal T'Challa as a means to literally be birthed into 616 Earth ]. And it was The Zombie King who T'Chaka killed in direct battle and whose vast galaxy of Zombies attempting to enter 616 MU that T'Chaka sacrificed much of himself to destroy. While still greatly weakened [ comparatively speaking ] T'Chaka...against the advice of S'yan the Swift...went to the fateful meeting recorded in RH's "WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER" that resulted in his assassination [ thus squaring and making sense of the canon explaining how an assassin like Klaue who would normally have zero chance against even the Dora Milaje was able to assassinate the extremely vaunted and heretofore unkillable King T'Chaka ].

But now? Another power has tinkered with The Zombie Virus and made it incurable by Morbius' previous cure. And this threat? Would probably be the threat that I would have T'Challa face and resolve using all of his abilities and pull off the megagenius feats that would place him without question as the shrewdest man in the MU...a la vintage CJP. He would also pull off a high number of tech feats,a high number of speed, agility and acrobatic feats a la vintage Don McGregor, display deep magic knowledge and the return of the sigils on his flesh a la Maberry...and straight outsmart, drag and dog walk everyone a la vintage RH.

^^^this up here would probably be the first or second arc in a 12 issue arc that I would write for T'Challa.

Sorry for the "strikethrough". That's an accident and Idk how to remove it.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 11:08:12 am
So. The Champion of the Universe shows up and challenges T'Challa for possession of all the Vibranium in the cosmos. Not because The Champion truly gives a hoot about said Vibranium, but because he knows that T'Challa would never allow such a threat to the Vibranium to exist...and he's never fought or beaten a full powered, fully prepped Panther, before. Nobody ever has. And that's the kind of challenge that The Champion would like to conquer.

HEFfas. How does T'Challa beat The Champion?

Simultaneously. Or subsequently. Your choice. The High Technician is trying to steal the Vibranium using his tech feats and intellect. Does T'Challa face this guy down, or does Shuri do so?

Simultaneously. Dormammu or somebody caught wind of the device that Reed Richards entrusted T'challa with [ hearkening back to the events of Battleworld, and the device being stolen by Hulk, Punisher, Elektra, and soembody else, I forget ]...and tries to snag it for himself. How does T'Challa handle that?

This is the kind of blending of extreme mental, magical, spiritual and physical challenge that T'Challa needs to truly be elevated into the heights that he deserves to be launched into. This kind of challenge would be relished by Batman fans...although Batman has never faced or defeated the equivalent of either of these challenges singly, much less in combination.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 16, 2019, 11:10:37 am
>>>Supreme


I'm experiencing digital anomalies at HEF, as well...


I, once, got hit with the 'strike out' function, too, while cuttin' & pasting text.  Found a 'work-around' but still dissatisfied.


Now, it's an issue w/transparencies and image files.  :-[
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 01:20:15 pm
>>>Supreme


I'm experiencing digital anomalies at HEF, as well...


I, once, got hit with the 'strike out' function, too, while cuttin' & pasting text.  Found a 'work-around' but still dissatisfied.


Now, it's an issue w/transparencies and image files.  :-[


You're definitely more savvy than I in that department, Battle. If these unintentional functions keep operating on me, I might need your workaround wizardry. Lol. Thanks for letting me know!
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 16, 2019, 02:54:13 pm
So. The Champion of the Universe shows up and challenges T'Challa for possession of all the Vibranium in the cosmos. Not because The Champion truly gives a hoot about said Vibranium, but because he knows that T'Challa would never allow such a threat to the Vibranium to exist...and he's never fought or beaten a full powered, fully prepped Panther, before. Nobody ever has. And that's the kind of challenge that The Champion would like to conquer.

HEFfas. How does T'Challa beat The Champion?

Simultaneously. Or subsequently. Your choice. The High Technician is trying to steal the Vibranium using his tech feats and intellect. Does T'Challa face this guy down, or does Shuri do so?

Simultaneously. Dormammu or somebody caught wind of the device that Reed Richards entrusted T'challa with [ hearkening back to the events of Battleworld, and the device being stolen by Hulk, Punisher, Elektra, and soembody else, I forget ]...and tries to snag it for himself. How does T'Challa handle that?

This is the kind of blending of extreme mental, magical, spiritual and physical challenge that T'Challa needs to truly be elevated into the heights that he deserves to be launched into. This kind of challenge would be relished by Batman fans...although Batman has never faced or defeated the equivalent of either of these challenges singly, much less in combination.

From what I've seen on his wiki page, I don't think he'd want to fight Tchalla. He wouldn't see it as a challenge or would disqualify him for using tech. Tchalla could avid getting hit and use leverage moves, but I don't know if the champion would even want to challenge him.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 05:53:37 pm
So. The Champion of the Universe shows up and challenges T'Challa for possession of all the Vibranium in the cosmos. Not because The Champion truly gives a hoot about said Vibranium, but because he knows that T'Challa would never allow such a threat to the Vibranium to exist...and he's never fought or beaten a full powered, fully prepped Panther, before. Nobody ever has. And that's the kind of challenge that The Champion would like to conquer.

HEFfas. How does T'Challa beat The Champion?

Simultaneously. Or subsequently. Your choice. The High Technician is trying to steal the Vibranium using his tech feats and intellect. Does T'Challa face this guy down, or does Shuri do so?

Simultaneously. Dormammu or somebody caught wind of the device that Reed Richards entrusted T'challa with [ hearkening back to the events of Battleworld, and the device being stolen by Hulk, Punisher, Elektra, and soembody else, I forget ]...and tries to snag it for himself. How does T'Challa handle that?

This is the kind of blending of extreme mental, magical, spiritual and physical challenge that T'Challa needs to truly be elevated into the heights that he deserves to be launched into. This kind of challenge would be relished by Batman fans...although Batman has never faced or defeated the equivalent of either of these challenges singly, much less in combination.

From what I've seen on his wiki page, I don't think he'd want to fight Tchalla. He wouldn't see it as a challenge or would disqualify him for using tech. Tchalla could avid getting hit and use leverage moves, but I don't know if the champion would even want to challenge him.

I see where you're coming from in your post up there. That's reasonable. I see you, Cville!

On the other hand, this same Champion couldn't render The Thing fully unconscious in their limited rules boxing match,whereas T'Challa KO'd Ben Grimm. That alone could change Champion's mind. On top of that, T'Challa both tasked God Doom and recreated the 616. Another thing that should really make him purrty worthy. And T'Challa was directly involved in flipping Galactus into The Lifegiver.

Whaddya think. Maybe Champion changes his mind? Especially since T'Challa could summon and embody the COMBINED power and abilities of ALL the previous Panthers and conceivably achieve super-strength at around Thing or She Hulk level?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 16, 2019, 06:34:22 pm
>>>Supreme


If you're still interested in editing your previous post with the 'strike-outs', try changing the color of the effected text.  :-\

Worked for me. (https://i.imgur.com/tk2tShD.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 16, 2019, 06:50:13 pm
I see where you're coming from in your post up there. That's reasonable. I see you, Cville!

On the other hand, this same Champion couldn't render The Thing fully unconscious in their limited rules boxing match,whereas T'Challa KO'd Ben Grimm. That alone could change Champion's mind. On top of that, T'Challa both tasked God Doom and recreated the 616. Another thing that should really make him purrty worthy. And T'Challa was directly involved in flipping Galactus into The Lifegiver.

Whaddya think. Maybe Champion changes his mind? Especially since T'Challa could summon and embody the COMBINED power and abilities of ALL the previous Panthers and conceivably achieve super-strength at around Thing or She Hulk level?

When did the boxing happen?

The bold has nothing to do with fighting which is what it seems the champion is most interested in from what little I've seen of him. He seems like Goku mixed with a professional wrestler. Tchallas' big brain feats are nice, but I don't think they'd interest him.

I'm still not convinced that he is actually compounding physical strength of each panther on top of each other. It was never clear as the story unfolded that he could do anything more than talk to the ancestors for advice.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 06:52:21 pm
>>>Supreme


If you're still interested in editing your previous post with the 'strike-outs', try changing the color of the effected text.  :-\

Worked for me. (https://i.imgur.com/tk2tShD.gif)


Tried it out, brutha. No love for me.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 07:13:57 pm
I see where you're coming from in your post up there. That's reasonable. I see you, Cville!

On the other hand, this same Champion couldn't render The Thing fully unconscious in their limited rules boxing match,whereas T'Challa KO'd Ben Grimm. That alone could change Champion's mind. On top of that, T'Challa both tasked God Doom and recreated the 616. Another thing that should really make him purrty worthy. And T'Challa was directly involved in flipping Galactus into The Lifegiver.

Whaddya think. Maybe Champion changes his mind? Especially since T'Challa could summon and embody the COMBINED power and abilities of ALL the previous Panthers and conceivably achieve super-strength at around Thing or She Hulk level?

When did the boxing happen?

The bold has nothing to do with fighting which is what it seems the champion is most interested in from what little I've seen of him. He seems like Goku mixed with a professional wrestler. Tchallas' big brain feats are nice, but I don't think they'd interest him.

I'm still not convinced that he is actually compounding physical strength of each panther on top of each other. It was never clear as the story unfolded that he could do anything more than talk to the ancestors for advice.


I don't think that Hickman envisioned T'Challa combining the physical strength of all previous Panthers into his [ T'Challa's ] being. I seem to remember Hickman very specifically mentioning the KOTD to be something on par with a wisdom upgrade. But. It's entirely possible and sensible that on rare occasions T'Challa could with extreme effort manifest the combined PHYSICAL STRENGTHS of all previous Panthers. Add that to T'Challa's already impressive strength equal to or superior to Ultimate Captain America's base strength of 2 to 5 tons and probably a 10 or 12 ton max. Remember, Ultimate Nick Fury said that Cap bould "bench press a Toyota"..and there are some heavy Toyotas out here. The average Toyota SUV weighs about 3,300 lbs. A Toyota Venza is 4,045 lbs...barely more than 2 tons. I think...based upon his feats..that Ultimate Cap's base strength is 5 tons, and that si our 616 BP's base strength too.

The issue of strength and who is stronger between Cap and T'Challa is another heated debate, with the overwhelming canon of Marvel showing that Cap is stronger. Even CJP...from the Stan Lee Era of Marvel...wholeheartedly thinks that Cap is stronger. But if we take the RH interpretation of Wakanda...which is the new base for Wakanda...then T'Challa is definitely the stronger of the two, or at the very least Cap's equal. WITHOUT NEED OF THE HSH FOR AMPLIFIED STRENGTH AS CAP NEEDS THE SSS FOR HIS AMPLIFIED STRENGTH. T'Challa and T'Chaka have their peak human strength due to the benign eugenics of Wakanda, practiced for over 1 million years.

This question of strength is of course vital because we needto know if T'Challa can generate the physical power to hurt The Champion with a punch. We already know that T'Challa can use his speed, agility, cunning, timing, and knowledge of leverage to sweep, trip, and/or throw The Champion.

T'Challa actually did go h2h with God Doom, remember? Even God Doom himself felt tasked and "reduced" to h2h vs T'Challa. And even though T'Challa lost that h2h battle...as was inevitable, nobody could beat God Doom head up and straight up, including The Champion who was one of the fallen slaughtered by a single Beyonder...T'Challa was the only one with the combined skills and intellect to actually TASK Doom and FORCE Doom to engage in such intense h2h that he...God Doom...could not spare his God Doom attention for any other purpose, thus allowing the ruse, the distraction, the deception to succeed at buying time for Reed to sever Doom's link to Molecule Man.

T'Challa vs The Thing happened in T'Challa's introduction in the FF back in the 1960's. The Champion's boxing thing happened during his introduction and challenging of multiple male superheros to a boxing match in New York city.

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111135171/5435305-0109541796-49998.jpg)

Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 07:19:35 pm
T'Challa vs The Thing happened in T'Challa's introduction in the FF back in the 1960's. The Champion's boxing thing happened during his introduction and challenging of multiple male superheros to a boxing match in New York city.

(https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/03/black-panther.jpg)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 16, 2019, 07:36:31 pm
There is no such thing as benign eugenics. It's still deciding who can and can't have children based or predetermined traits. If I thought WK practiced that, I immediately stop being a fan.

-Where is the evidence that they're benching multiple tons without any enhancement?

-Tchalla is wearing the IG fighting God Doom

-He sapped the Things strength before they started fighting.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 16, 2019, 08:31:12 pm
There is no such thing as benign eugenics. It's still deciding who can and can't have children based or predetermined traits. If I thought WK practiced that, I immediately stop being a fan.

-Where is the evidence that they're benching multiple tons without any enhancement?

-TChalla is wearing the IG fighting God Doom

-He sapped the Things strength before they started fighting.


I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.

Yeah T'Challa IS wearing the IG fighting God Doom...and both of them already knew that the IG was far inferior to the power that God Doom wields. T'Challa did the most with the least amount of power against the most powerful being in existence. Very very impressive imo. T'Challa still compelled God Doom to fight h2h despite the vast vast vast advantage in power that God Doom held.


In the EJD miniseries, EJD made it clear...with RH's blessing, of course, as RH saw what EJD wrote before it hit the shelves...that T'Chaka was not enhanced when he defeated Captain America. Furthermore, Don McGregor in his PANTHER'S PREY miniseries which starred Solomon Prey as the adversary, delved into the properties of the HSH and specified that T'Challa's abilities were linked to a spiritual enhancement and link forged by HSH. Don also specified also that the HSH impacted the Kinesthetic Sense of T'Challa or anyone who imbibed the HSH. But Don McGregor also specified that the connection that T'Challa has with panthers, his intuition, his inner strengths and perceptiveness, were things that the techs didn't have access to and couldn't explain. This base that Don McGregor gave us was modernized into the interpretations that RH rocks and bang...there ya are.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-actYyXiC7yw/WD9ArHc77mI/AAAAAAAAI6w/xBO68MJtLy0cE2KRxHfSTzWPve09gMZ2gCLcB/s1600/panthers%2Bprey%2B3%2B2.JPG)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 16, 2019, 08:42:01 pm
Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

I don't recognize the initials EJD?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 16, 2019, 09:28:26 pm
Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?




"There are no bad characters. Just bad writers." - John Romita Sr.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 17, 2019, 03:41:19 am
Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?




"There are no bad characters. Just bad writers." - John Romita Sr.

I cited that very thing when vehemently disagreeing with the ways in which T'Challa has been portrayed pre-Peter B. Gillis in 1988

(https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/616131.jpg)

and of course the real deal dopeness of CJP

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/518PmjvgzvL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

(https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2018/01/18/magazine/christopher-priest/priest-2.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.2x.jpg)



Man, I saw how T'Challa was beat up by a TEENAGE GANG, and that had me drop the whole series until Peter B. Gillis came around. I oftentimes felt like Marvel wrote stories designed to personally disrespect me, and that's why I always approached stories with Black protagonists with a sense of trepidation. They had Luke Cage speaking English as if it was his 4th language...and he hated it. They had The Falcon so deeply ensconced in Suckaville that he could run for Suckaville City Council and probably win. Ororo? Was acting Whiter than her hair color. And T'Challa? Was KING of Suckaville. Everybody else? Was some garbage version of a White hero. BLACK Goliath. Etc. Wolverine? Was running around calling bruthas "blackie".

I remember that I chilled on a lot of comics, and was reading Spider-Man more heavily than anything else because it didn't smack me in the face with racist stuff.

And then...ancestors be praised...came Peter B. Gillis, a very short but promising feature of Black Panther in Marvel Knights with short stories told in it featuring BP, Daredevil, and other heroes whose books were cancelled at that time, and then came The Game Changer I in Priest's BP. With Game Changer II in RH BP. Honorable Mention David Liss. We've all been pretty much onboard ever since CJP.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 17, 2019, 03:44:40 am
Don McGregor also has Tchalla get beaten up by normal humans. Which means at best he was slightly above Olympic levels?

I don't recognize the initials EJD?

EJD is Eric Jerome Dickey

(https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1176750149l/650375.jpg)

Even though this miniseries was controversial to some primarily because it indicated that T'Challa and Ororo as two underaged kids were having sex with each other [ an entirely normal and expected occurrence if we keep it 100, however controversial to various people it may be ], I really liked it.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 17, 2019, 04:30:30 am
I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 17, 2019, 07:39:18 am
I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.


Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7d2336caeaa54cc9d1008e52592f7998)

That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.

Also, the utterly ridiculous stats regarding Cap bench pressing 800 pounds and Black Panther bench pressing about 750 or nearly 800 lbs. has been long out of date. I read those stats from THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, more than 33 years ago. We know that Captain America AND T'Challa can vastly outperform those numbers, because modern sport Olympians have surpassed those numbers in the bench press...and both Captain America and T'Challa can effortlessly outperform every Olympian athlete of the modern games that has ever lived. In fact, we see from some 30 and more years ago that Captain America is WARMING UP with a bench press of 1100 pounds...that mark breaks the current Olympic bench press record

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-acec36b730b1a24930b4d86cfa3c97ad.webp)

We also see T'Challa physically halting a charging elephant:

(https://i.imgur.com/mhFrR8L.jpg)

Just to be clear? AKAJE is NOT The Black Panther we see above; Akaje is The King of Dakenia, and a dishonorable person who poisoned his own brother then married his wife. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Akaje_(Earth-616) (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Akaje_(Earth-616))

and 31 years ago, here is T'Challa outwrestling a 5 ton charging rhino:

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80103/4914161-9288814218-25714.jpg)


and there's a picture from CJP BLACK PANTHER era where T'Challa at least at the age of 50 is literally lifting and BODY SLAMMING a 2 ton rhino so hard that he breaks its neck.

So I understand your point, but you're using outdated sources.

Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 17, 2019, 11:21:02 am
I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.


Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7d2336caeaa54cc9d1008e52592f7998)

That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.



Yup! (https://i.imgur.com/5A5DCxP.gif)  ;D

I'll add: the shade went even as far the Hollywood movie, I'm reading some of the commentary that when Killmonger was crowned King of Wakanda, the scene where he & the Wakandan Empire had planned to strike the Mystic Sanctums at New York, London & Hong Kong, dudes were saying that his plan would've failed.

I told them straight up, just like I wrote here at HEF, the battle would've been an outright slaughter. 

Dudes out there said Doctor Strange would've stopped the Wakandans at the Sanctums.

I told them,  did you forget that Wakandan warriors not only exist on the physical plane but in the spiritual realms as well. In the movie, it was clearly established that the Wakandans can speak directly to their ancestors for information, wisdom & guidance.  Their warrior strength in the spiritual realm, as far as numbers go, is much greater.

Someone here at HEF pulled out Thanos would've stopped the Wakandans. :)

I doubt that.  Thanos would've joined in Killmonger's quest for retribution. ;D
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 18, 2019, 01:28:00 am
I found the issue. Based on the way Tchalla says it, he acknowledges that Tchaka is not stronger than Cap by saying he out maneuvered him.

Then after a little checking, it looks like 616 Cap is listed as lifting 800lbs with straining effort. Which isn't so strong that a skilled human couldn't win a fight.

Either way, I would say that is well below what The Champion would see as a challenge. Who is listed as being capable of lifting 100 tons.



Have you read Reginald Hudlin's seminal run on BP? In his groundbreaking first 6 issues...WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER...we have T'Chaka and Captain America square off [ this was later retconned into Azziri the Wise vs Cap ]. This is the sequence that had we long suffering BP fans standing up and cheering, while pissing off so many of the LCBRD:

([url]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7d2336caeaa54cc9d1008e52592f7998[/url])

That's not just outmaneuvering Cap. That is flat out whoopin Cap's butt.  T'Challa was pointing out that T'Chaka was unenhanced, whereas Steve Rogers IS enhanced. T'Challa was making the point that T'Chaka...born as he was, all natural...was better than Captain America AFTER Captain America was enhanced and trained to the pinnacle of U.S. military fighting efficiency, using every resource available in the USA.




Yup! ([url]https://i.imgur.com/5A5DCxP.gif[/url])  ;D

I'll add: the shade went even as far the Hollywood movie, I'm reading some of the commentary that when Killmonger was crowned King of Wakanda, the scene where he & the Wakandan Empire had planned to strike the Mystic Sanctums at New York, London & Hong Kong, dudes were saying that his plan would've failed.

I told them straight up, just like I wrote here at HEF, the battle would've been an outright slaughter. 

Dudes out there said Doctor Strange would've stopped the Wakandans at the Sanctums.

I told them,  did you forget that Wakandan warriors not only exist on the physical plane but in the spiritual realms as well. In the movie, it was clearly established that the Wakandans can speak directly to their ancestors for information, wisdom & guidance.  Their warrior strength in the spiritual realm, as far as numbers go, is much greater.

Someone here at HEF pulled out Thanos would've stopped the Wakandans. :)

I doubt that.  Thanos would've joined in Killmonger's quest for retribution. ;D



T'Challa faced down God Doom. The same God Doom that KILLED Doctor Strange and Thanos. EASILY.

(https://pm1.narvii.com/6577/295a0232820817d0e4cd5c3e9144428e5ef91739_hq.jpg)


T'Challa truly isn't scurred uh no Doctor Strange. And Wakanda? Is REALLY NOT scurred of Doctor Strange. The Marvel Zombies ate Doctor Strange off top. T'Challa survived unscathed until politics changed that narrative and made T'Challa a food source for Zombie Pym. And we all know that T'Challa would off-handedly slaughter Pym. Zombified or not. The Hatut Zeraze would slaughter Pym. No contest.

Remember how Batman had mystic shields protecting his Batcave? not even Dead Man could sneak up or even make it into The Batcave without Batman's foreknowledge and permission. T'Challa? is waaay smarter than Batman. And has the greatest civilization full of "low grade peak humans" [ what a concept ] working together for more than a million years at his back, and the pinnacle expressions of humanity in theform of a million years of Black Panthers at his literal spiritual beck and call; whose wisdom he can and will call upon. See this floating Panther here amongst the ancestors of T'Challa's?

(http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/128/820/i02/NEWAVN2013018_int_LR2_00007.jpg?1399569808)

We see from Hickman's array of Panthers that at least one Panther was a terrifyingly powerful Sorcerer [ not much of a stretch to assume that that Panther was ALSO the Sorcerer Supreme before The Ancient One; or even more fittingly and in keeping with Wakanda's secrecy and isolationist policies...was the TRUE Sorcerer Supreme but The Outworlders never knew it ]. Therefore T'Challa could literally call upon the memories and magicks of this specific Sorcerer Panther should he choose.

And even if that's against T'Challa's personal character traits to go magic to magic vs Strange? T'Challa? Would Shadow Physics and Reality Particles SMOKE Doctor Strange. Easy work.

Doctor Strange and nem all...The Sorcerers Supreme...got caught slippin by The Empirikul https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Empirikul_(Earth-616) (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Empirikul_(Earth-616)). Wakanda would neutralize the powers of magic used by her opponents, not only with her tech but also with her Mystic Vibranium. Wakanda..an entire civilization which has faced threats from Celestials, malevolent entities like Dormammu and greater, magicks from whole pantheons of malevolent gods, etc...is not worried bout no Doctor Strange. Wakanda...from 1,000,000 years ago...teamed up wit hthe likes of Star Brand, Young Odin, The Phoenix Force, Hulk, and Ghost Rider.

Wakanda would smoove dog walk Doctor Strange. Strange would need a whoooole looootta tech on his side, and the combined power of all The Avengers Active and Reserve roster, to even make it a fight. And they'd still lose. Wakanda...little Wakanda...can stand off the combined powers of all the countries in the world PLUS the 9 Realms. She has done similar feats before in her past...or at least we can assume that she virtually mandatorily had to do so. Having kicked the Kree off the planet, having been around long before The Inhumans, having interacted with pantheons like The Norse and Olympian Gods and every other Pantheon of Gods as they all have at some point cast their covetous eyes toward Afrika...or sought to dominate all of humanity, or embroil all of humanity in the aftermath of their Godly schemes. None of which would be allowed by Wakanda.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 18, 2019, 02:46:40 am
>>> Supreme

Gawd, I luv you guys! (https://i.imgur.com/XWWTblP.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 18, 2019, 09:06:44 am
>>> Supreme

Gawd, I luv you guys! (https://i.imgur.com/XWWTblP.gif)

We luv you too!!
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 19, 2019, 06:19:59 am
I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.


Yeah, but that's the logic of all eugenics programs--Maximum potential.  No one views their eugenics program as oppressive, or evil; they see it as "for the common good", "the betterment of mankind" or "maximum potential."

Did you know that Alexander Graham Bell used to promote the concept that Deaf individuals should not be allowed to marry other Deaf individuals, so to reduce the chance of Deafness being passed on to children. I'm sure he saw it as a good thing for the betterment of mankind, to help children reach their best.  The Deaf Community still views him as an oppressor and evil.   (He was wrong about the premise, too.)

Right, now, if you were to say there are no Deaf individuals in Wakanda, the Deaf Community would label that as Audism (the oppression of the Deaf). 
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 19, 2019, 07:10:51 am
I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.


Yeah, but that's the logic of all eugenics programs--Maximum potential.  No one views their eugenics program as oppressive, or evil; they see it as "for the common good", "the betterment of mankind" or "maximum potential."

Did you know that Alexander Graham Bell used to promote the concept that Deaf individuals should not be allowed to marry other Deaf individuals, so to reduce the chance of Deafness being passed on to children. I'm sure he saw it as a good thing for the betterment of mankind, to help children reach their best.  The Deaf Community still views him as an oppressor and evil.   (He was wrong about the premise, too.)

Right, now, if you were to say there are no Deaf individuals in Wakanda, the Deaf Community would label that as Audism (the oppression of the Deaf).



They would be wrong. Because the fact is, the OTHER people who professed "eugenics" weren't actually trying to better humanity...they were racists, elitists, and corrupt people in power trying to enforce their racist, elitist, and/or corrupt idea of a specific ideal on a people that initially didn't share such ideals and would not have naturally developed such ideals en masse on their own. Like a blonde hair blue eyed "super race". Or whatever. Wakandans have all kinds of advantages and the track record to end all of that. Ending all forms of sicknesses and maladies is not the oppression of the sick; it's the result of using natural foods, remedies etc to prevent sicknesses and maladies, or curing sickness and maladies once introduced to the healthy via outside forces. In order for deafness to happen? There has to be dysfunction of the cochlea, inner ear, or brain. If this dysfunction never occurs? That's not intolerance of deaf people. That's promotion of health.

In order for Audism to happen? There first have to be an inclination toward OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE. Is curing the damage to the cochlea, inner ear or brain the same as OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE? Not. At. All. That's CURING DYSFUNCTION. There are no deaf, blind, etc people in Wakanda to oppress. There's a very significant difference between oppression of the deaf and ensuring that deafness, blindness, sickness, etc never occur by NATURALLY preventing and correcting the in vitro imbalances and dysfunctions that lead to deafness AND USING TECHNOLOGY TO RESTORE HEARING, SIGHT, ETC. ONCE IT'S BEEN TAKEN BY OUTSIDE FORCES.

Wakandans are very much NOT disposed toward OPPRESSING ANYONE. Oppression? Is a prolonged, negative, controlling response aimed specifically at one or selected groups and forced upon said groups to the lasting detriment to said group or groups. It is a negative, destructive,  systematic response aimed toward a specific group of people which grows from a philosophical bigotry, prejudice, etc that has ingrained itself within the institutions of a society, government or civilization. No such philosophy exists in any part of Wakanda, because the people of Wakanda are too culturally, spiritually, mentally and emotionally mature for such pettiness to exist within them. This is precisely the same reason that such stupidities as Rape Camps cannot exist within Wakanda because the corruption of the heart that allows rape to happen doesn't exist in Wakandan hearts. If a formerly hearing person ELECTED to REMAIN deaf and forego treatment for whatever reason? That person would NOT be mistreated.

There ARE exceptions to the rule. Baron Macabre. Zenzi. Tengu. Etc. But their presence makes the rule...the rest of the 99.9% of Wakandans and Wakanda...shine even brighter.

In precisely the same way that a deaf person who undergoes surgery or whatever in order to correct their dysfunctional cochlea so they can hear IS NOT ENGAGING IN AUDISM, so too is Wakanda NOT engaging in Audism by preventing and/or curing deafness from happening in the first place. The same way there are no cancers, or any other form of sickness naturally occurring in Wakanda doesn't meant that the Wakandan people are inclined toward bigotry against the sick; rather it shows Wakanda's unmatched, unequaled successes in promoting universal health at optimal levels.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 19, 2019, 07:56:24 am
I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.


Yeah, but that's the logic of all eugenics programs--Maximum potential.  No one views their eugenics program as oppressive, or evil; they see it as "for the common good", "the betterment of mankind" or "maximum potential."

Did you know that Alexander Graham Bell used to promote the concept that Deaf individuals should not be allowed to marry other Deaf individuals, so to reduce the chance of Deafness being passed on to children. I'm sure he saw it as a good thing for the betterment of mankind, to help children reach their best.  The Deaf Community still views him as an oppressor and evil.   (He was wrong about the premise, too.)

Right, now, if you were to say there are no Deaf individuals in Wakanda, the Deaf Community would label that as Audism (the oppression of the Deaf).



They would be wrong. Because the fact is, the OTHER people who professed "eugenics" weren't actually trying to better humanity...they were racists, elitists, and corrupt people in power trying to enforce their racist, elitist, and/or corrupt idea of a specific ideal on a people that initially didn't share such ideals and would not have naturally developed such ideals en masse on their own. Like a blonde hair blue eyed "super race". Or whatever. Wakandans have all kinds of advantages and the track record to end all of that. Ending all forms of sicknesses and maladies is not the oppression of the sick; it's the result of using natural foods, remedies etc to prevent sicknesses and maladies, or curing sickness and maladies once introduced to the healthy via outside forces. In order for deafness to happen? There has to be dysfunction of the cochlea, inner ear, or brain. If this dysfunction never occurs? That's not intolerance of deaf people. That's promotion of health.

In order for Audism to happen? There first have to be an inclination toward OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE. Is curing the damage to the cochlea, inner ear or brain the same as OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE? Not. At. All. That's CURING DYSFUNCTION. There are no deaf, blind, etc people in Wakanda to oppress. There's a very significant difference between oppression of the deaf and ensuring that deafness, blindness, sickness, etc never occur by NATURALLY preventing and correcting the in vitro imbalances and dysfunctions that lead to deafness AND USING TECHNOLOGY TO RESTORE HEARING, SIGHT, ETC. ONCE IT'S BEEN TAKEN BY OUTSIDE FORCES.

Wakandans are very much NOT disposed toward OPPRESSING ANYONE. Oppression? Is a prolonged, negative, controlling response aimed specifically at one or selected groups and forced upon said groups to the lasting detriment to said group or groups. It is a negative, destructive,  systematic response aimed toward a specific group of people which grows from a philosophical bigotry, prejudice, etc that has ingrained itself within the institutions of a society, government or civilization. No such philosophy exists in any part of Wakanda, because the people of Wakanda are too culturally, spiritually, mentally and emotionally mature for such pettiness to exist within them. This is precisely the same reason that such stupidities as Rape Camps cannot exist within Wakanda because the corruption of the heart that allows rape to happen doesn't exist in Wakandan hearts. If a formerly hearing person ELECTED to REMAIN deaf and forego treatment for whatever reason? That person would NOT be mistreated.

There ARE exceptions to the rule. Baron Macabre. Zenzi. Tengu. Etc. But their presence makes the rule...the rest of the 99.9% of Wakandans and Wakanda...shine even brighter.

In precisely the same way that a deaf person who undergoes surgery or whatever in order to correct their dysfunctional cochlea so they can hear IS NOT ENGAGING IN AUDISM, so too is Wakanda NOT engaging in Audism by preventing and/or curing deafness from happening in the first place. The same way there are no cancers, or any other form of sickness naturally occurring in Wakanda doesn't meant that the Wakandan people are inclined toward bigotry against the sick; rather it shows Wakanda's unmatched, unequaled successes in promoting universal health at optimal levels.

"here's a very significant difference between oppression of the deaf and ensuring that deafness, blindness, sickness, etc never occur by NATURALLY preventing and correcting the in vitro imbalances and dysfunctions that lead to deafness AND USING TECHNOLOGY TO RESTORE HEARING, SIGHT, ETC. ONCE IT'S BEEN TAKEN BY OUTSIDE FORCES. " 

 By the definition of audism, that what you are describing is exactly AUDISM.   

I've seen this over and over again, the Deaf community--Deafness is not a disability; they are not broken, Deaf do not view themselves as Disabled by as members of a linguistic minority that has been constantly oppressed by people who can hear to force them to be like the majority.  As far as many in the Deaf Community, it does not need to be fixed; they haven't lost anything--they consider hearing as an unnecessary thing.  If you try to fix them, you're oppressing them.  Basically, if you assume that hearing is better than deaf, that's audism.

I've seen the Deaf refer to attempts to cure Deafness as genocide and even some will go the extreme of calling putting Cochlear Implant on children is child abuse.  (Yes, I'm serious.)

"Some Deaf activists call cochlear implants the audists' tool of cultural genocide that is wiping out the Deaf community."
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audism]  fixed,  wrong link.


Do you that there are many Deaf who are sad when they find out their children can hear?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 19, 2019, 08:07:44 am
However I'm getting off my point.

my point was that what you consider to be a positive move in society, somebody else might view that as being a negative or oppression. You think it's good while someone else thinks it's evil. in order to do a program like this you have to make an assumption that everyone wants the same result, I don't think that's ever true. And to those who are on the other side of the argument, they will always view this as evil, oppressive or some other negative term.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 19, 2019, 08:11:15 am
I've seen this over and over again, the Deaf community--Deafness is not a disability; they are not broken, Deaf do not view themselves as Disabled by as members of a linguistic minority that has been constantly oppressed by people who can hear to force them to be like the majority.  As far as many in the Deaf Community, it does not need to be fixed; they haven't lost anything--they consider hearing as an unnecessary thing.  If you try to fix them, you're oppressing them.  Basically, if you assume that hearing is better than deaf, that's audism.



That's not accurate.

The help given to deaf persons is not about fixing them, it's about providing assistance.  That's why the device designed to place in their ear is called a 'hearing aid'.



Besides the eugenics program was an argument about special needs people [read: retarded individuals] reproductive rights;  once upon a time, it was believed that if a special needs is allowed to have children, those children will produce more of the same kind. 

This was proven to be a violation of one's Constitution rights as well as Civil Rights, if not Human Rights.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 19, 2019, 08:18:25 am
I've seen this over and over again, the Deaf community--Deafness is not a disability; they are not broken, Deaf do not view themselves as Disabled by as members of a linguistic minority that has been constantly oppressed by people who can hear to force them to be like the majority.  As far as many in the Deaf Community, it does not need to be fixed; they haven't lost anything--they consider hearing as an unnecessary thing.  If you try to fix them, you're oppressing them.  Basically, if you assume that hearing is better than deaf, that's audism.



That's not accurate.

The help given to deaf persons is not about fixing them, it's about providing assistance.  That's why the device designed to place in their ear is called a 'hearing aid'.



Besides the eugenics program was an argument about special needs people [read: retarded individuals] reproductive rights;  once upon a time, it was believed that if a special needs is allowed to have children, those children will produce more of the same kind. 

This was proven to be a violation of one's Constitution rights as well as Civil Rights, if not Human Rights.


"Activists in the Deaf community claim that audists harm Deaf culture by considering deafness a disability, rather than as a cultural difference.[...Some Deaf activists call cochlear implants the audists' tool of cultural genocide that is wiping out the Deaf community."
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audism] 

So yes,  in the eyes of the Deaf Community,  it's oppression.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 19, 2019, 08:32:34 am
However I'm getting off my point.

my point was that what you consider to be a positive move in society, somebody else might view that as being a negative or oppression. You think it's good while someone else thinks it's evil. in order to do a program like this you have to make an assumption that everyone wants the same result, I don't think that's ever true. And to those who are on the other side of the argument, they will always view this as evil, oppressive or some other negative term.




Over time, I have learned no matter what the issue or conflict is, whether the intent is good, useful or lack thereof, there will always be resistance of some kind.

What you're talking is merely a point of reference for the sake of argument but in reality, it's negligible. (https://i.imgur.com/tk2tShD.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 19, 2019, 12:52:33 pm
I don't mean "eugenics" in that sense. I mean the sense of purposefully developing the Wakandan national populace towards their maximum potential in all things good.


Yeah, but that's the logic of all eugenics programs--Maximum potential.  No one views their eugenics program as oppressive, or evil; they see it as "for the common good", "the betterment of mankind" or "maximum potential."

Did you know that Alexander Graham Bell used to promote the concept that Deaf individuals should not be allowed to marry other Deaf individuals, so to reduce the chance of Deafness being passed on to children. I'm sure he saw it as a good thing for the betterment of mankind, to help children reach their best.  The Deaf Community still views him as an oppressor and evil.   (He was wrong about the premise, too.)

Right, now, if you were to say there are no Deaf individuals in Wakanda, the Deaf Community would label that as Audism (the oppression of the Deaf).



They would be wrong. Because the fact is, the OTHER people who professed "eugenics" weren't actually trying to better humanity...they were racists, elitists, and corrupt people in power trying to enforce their racist, elitist, and/or corrupt idea of a specific ideal on a people that initially didn't share such ideals and would not have naturally developed such ideals en masse on their own. Like a blonde hair blue eyed "super race". Or whatever. Wakandans have all kinds of advantages and the track record to end all of that. Ending all forms of sicknesses and maladies is not the oppression of the sick; it's the result of using natural foods, remedies etc to prevent sicknesses and maladies, or curing sickness and maladies once introduced to the healthy via outside forces. In order for deafness to happen? There has to be dysfunction of the cochlea, inner ear, or brain. If this dysfunction never occurs? That's not intolerance of deaf people. That's promotion of health.

In order for Audism to happen? There first have to be an inclination toward OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE. Is curing the damage to the cochlea, inner ear or brain the same as OPPRESSION OF DEAF PEOPLE? Not. At. All. That's CURING DYSFUNCTION. There are no deaf, blind, etc people in Wakanda to oppress. There's a very significant difference between oppression of the deaf and ensuring that deafness, blindness, sickness, etc never occur by NATURALLY preventing and correcting the in vitro imbalances and dysfunctions that lead to deafness AND USING TECHNOLOGY TO RESTORE HEARING, SIGHT, ETC. ONCE IT'S BEEN TAKEN BY OUTSIDE FORCES.

Wakandans are very much NOT disposed toward OPPRESSING ANYONE. Oppression? Is a prolonged, negative, controlling response aimed specifically at one or selected groups and forced upon said groups to the lasting detriment to said group or groups. It is a negative, destructive,  systematic response aimed toward a specific group of people which grows from a philosophical bigotry, prejudice, etc that has ingrained itself within the institutions of a society, government or civilization. No such philosophy exists in any part of Wakanda, because the people of Wakanda are too culturally, spiritually, mentally and emotionally mature for such pettiness to exist within them. This is precisely the same reason that such stupidities as Rape Camps cannot exist within Wakanda because the corruption of the heart that allows rape to happen doesn't exist in Wakandan hearts. If a formerly hearing person ELECTED to REMAIN deaf and forego treatment for whatever reason? That person would NOT be mistreated.

There ARE exceptions to the rule. Baron Macabre. Zenzi. Tengu. Etc. But their presence makes the rule...the rest of the 99.9% of Wakandans and Wakanda...shine even brighter.

In precisely the same way that a deaf person who undergoes surgery or whatever in order to correct their dysfunctional cochlea so they can hear IS NOT ENGAGING IN AUDISM, so too is Wakanda NOT engaging in Audism by preventing and/or curing deafness from happening in the first place. The same way there are no cancers, or any other form of sickness naturally occurring in Wakanda doesn't meant that the Wakandan people are inclined toward bigotry against the sick; rather it shows Wakanda's unmatched, unequaled successes in promoting universal health at optimal levels.

"here's a very significant difference between oppression of the deaf and ensuring that deafness, blindness, sickness, etc never occur by NATURALLY preventing and correcting the in vitro imbalances and dysfunctions that lead to deafness AND USING TECHNOLOGY TO RESTORE HEARING, SIGHT, ETC. ONCE IT'S BEEN TAKEN BY OUTSIDE FORCES. " 

 By the definition of audism, that what you are describing is exactly AUDISM.   

I've seen this over and over again, the Deaf community--Deafness is not a disability; they are not broken, Deaf do not view themselves as Disabled by as members of a linguistic minority that has been constantly oppressed by people who can hear to force them to be like the majority.  As far as many in the Deaf Community, it does not need to be fixed; they haven't lost anything--they consider hearing as an unnecessary thing.  If you try to fix them, you're oppressing them.  Basically, if you assume that hearing is better than deaf, that's audism.

I've seen the Deaf refer to attempts to cure Deafness as genocide and even some will go the extreme of calling putting Cochlear Implant on children is child abuse.  (Yes, I'm serious.)

"Some Deaf activists call cochlear implants the audists' tool of cultural genocide that is wiping out the Deaf community."
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audism]  fixed,  wrong link.


Do you that there are many Deaf who are sad when they find out their children can hear?

I have never heard of Deaf people who are SAD when they find out their children can hear...but I can possibly imagine why they might think so, or empathize with the less extreme reasons they might have for thinking so.

Brother Kip Lewis...as for your statement that "by the definition of Audism", what I described above is Audism? I would have to say then that we're operating from different definitions of Audism.

DEFINITION 1 OF AUDISM is as follows: "Audism is a set of beliefs that include: hearing people are superior to Deaf people; Deaf people should be pitied for having futile and miserable lives; Deaf people should become like hearing people as far as possible; and shunning of sign languages..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audism)

DEFINITION 2 OF AUDISM: "Definition of audism
: discrimination or prejudice against individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/audism (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/audism)


Once again, none of these things exist in Wakanda...because of the cultural mental spiritual etc maturity of Wakanda on the one hand as an entire population as a whole. On the other hand, because they're not only a technological, governmental, etc Shangri-La, but they're pinnacle warriors, too. Warrior training and its saturation throughout Wakanda IS VITALLY IMPORTANT IN COMPLETING THE EDUCATION OF THE MINDS OF WAKANDANS AGAINST AUDISM, BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE WAKANDAN HAS EXPERIENCED DEAFNESS AS PART OF THEIR WARRIOR TRAINING.

I'm not making that up. It's actually a traditional training method that I and many people who've trained in self defense have directly experienced, or have observed similar training growing up, or read about it, or can extrapolate to it [ if you're born after the 1980's ].

I remember over 30 years ago as part of my brown belt training, my Uncle Bobby would strap DJ headphones onto our heads, spin us about in circles so that we were dizzy, take a position out of immediate sight of us...and throw tennis balls at us. Or rolled up socks. Or Nerf balls. Or hand balls. Or house shoes/slippers. Sometimes rubber band smack us. Or roll soccer balls at us. Or other objects. We had to find him while avoiding being hit 5 times by the tennis balls, hand balls, socks, toy blocks, and other objects [ as the training advanced he would change up between them, because we learned to spot these objects via specific characteristics of the drills we faced, so Uncle Bobby kept changing up the objects we had to identify in order to keep the challenges fresh and force us to continually develop instead of hit a plateau ].

In other words? We had to learn to apply our self defense skills without the aid of hearing. We had to learn what was being said to us when suddenly and unexpectedly having our ability to hear TAKEN AWAY FROM US at RANDOM TIMES [ Uncle Bobby would do this by making us wear the DJ head sets AND TURNING MUSIC ON IN THE HEAD SETS right in the freakin middle or beginning or at random interspersed times during Stance training or Weapons training or something...and WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE MISSING PARTS OF OUR LESSONS WERE MERELY BY WATCHING HIM. As time passed and we got better at this? Whole lessons would be conducted without sound ]. We learned to relate to the world without sound.

He would repeat these same kinds of lessons when putting a blind fold over our eyes.

He would then literally tie our dominant arm behind our backs while we had to do katas and/or defend ourselves. He would tie our legs together and make us do katas and/or defend ourselves. He would then COMPOUND OUR DISADVANTAGES by puttin the DJ headphones on AND tying our dominant arm behind our backs or tying our legs together...or both [ as we advanced in the brown belt ranks ]. He would rob us of each of our senses and rob us of a limb or 3, and we still had to operate.

Why? Because in self defense, you could suffer injuries that emulate these suddenly enforced disadvantages, yet you still had to successfully achieve your mission. Whatever that mission was.

We did this kind of thing for 6 weeks. It was very fun, and very educational. We became better human beings as a result of these exercises.

Wakandans ARE AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION OF WARRIORS. LITERALLY EVERYONE HAS GONE THROUGH THIS TRAINING. ESPECIALLY TRADITIONALISTS. Some extra hardcore Old Skool Traditionalists of Mtindo Wa Nyoka..."Snake Style"...would actually insist on years of ZERO HEARING in order to emulate the snake's reliance on sensitivity to vibrations, etc and perfect their snake style skills.

Since Wakandans unraveled the mystery of the human DNA genome hundreds of thousands of years ago? They're essentially physically immune to aging. Therefore, the average Wakandan would have experienced YEARS of training that develops their ability to operate without hearing, sight, etc. They AVERAGE Wakandan trained to be like or better than Echo Ronin

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/Echo_as_Ronin.png/220px-Echo_as_Ronin.png)

(https://www.writeups.org/wp-content/uploads/Echo-Marvel-Comics-Ronin-Maya-Lopez-Daredevil-Avengers-d.jpg)

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS before Echo existed. 

This is the balancing factor which, like I kept saying before, underscores the fact that [as PRIEST then later Reginald Hudlin kept repeating throughout his run ] Wakanda has ZERO of the ills of the Outworld because Wakandans are too spiritually, culturally, intellectually, etc. mature to fall to these weaknesses prevalent in The Outworlders.

Wakandans have trained without their sight so that they're equivalent to Hand Ninja without use of their sight. That's why the populace of Wakanda was able to fight against The Hand even before Shuri and the DM and the HZ arrived to fight The Hand in David Liss' stories about T'Challa as THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE.

Wakandans have spent years honing their warrior senses and philosophies while dealing with single and multiple forms of sensory deprivation/malfunction, and have had their thoughts and feelings and the philosophies of their civilization fundamentally altered by, impacted by and inclusive of same from the bedrock of their philosophies and spirituality onward. Even the Gods in the Kemetic pantheon, or West or Central Afrikan pantheon, INCLUDE Gods whose worship requires the removal of such destructive bigotries and promotion of the mysteries and skills that come about when one is deprived of a staple sense like sight, or hearing. Or limbs.

Remember that [ traditionally speaking, if Wakanda is located in East Afrika, its spiritual traditions would include ] one of the Orisha...Babalu Aye... is the living embodiment of this lesson, and one of the most fearsome and hardest to satisfy during The Walkabout that each Wakandan must undergo.

Of course, The Royal Walkabout is many times more difficult than anything that the average Wakandan Walkabout had. That's another part of the process proving to Wakandans that the Royalty in question merited his/her/their position.

All of which underscores the critical point that is being missed.

Audism is the belief that deaf people are undesirable, less than, etc than hearing people and are discriminated against accordingly. The warrior training that every Wakandan goes through utterly destroys such nonsense in them AS CHILDREN, and as such CANNOT BE THE CAUSE OF OR PART OF the health practices that Wakandans have that prevent hearing loss in any form which IS the result of the DYSFUNCTION or MALFUNCTION of the cochlea, inner ear or brain.

Your entire argument, brother Kip Lewis, rests upon the ABSENCE of all of the above in the people of Wakanda. I assert that one cannot have Wakandans or Wakanda if Audism exists. I believe that the record, Marvel canon, abundantly makes clear that my point is the correct point and perspective in this case.

What do you think?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 19, 2019, 03:34:13 pm
I think you misunderstand that definition of Audism.  If you think Deafness should/would be cured by technology, it could show a view point that only happens bc you think being Deaf is less than having your hearing.

Example, do you remember the Star Trek the Next Gen episode, with the Deaf ambassador.  In the story, his Chorus, (interpreters) were killed.  The original storyline was for the doctor to create a device to give him hearing like Gordi' visor provides sight.  The Deaf actor said, no.  He made them change that to encouraging people to learn sign language rather than fix something he didn't feel needed to be fixed. 


 
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 19, 2019, 08:24:51 pm
I think you misunderstand that definition of Audism.  If you think Deafness should/would be cured by technology, it could show a view point that only happens bc you think being Deaf is less than having your hearing.

Example, do you remember the Star Trek the Next Gen episode, with the Deaf ambassador.  In the story, his Chorus, (interpreters) were killed.  The original storyline was for the doctor to create a device to give him hearing like Gordi' visor provides sight.  The Deaf actor said, no.  He made them change that to encouraging people to learn sign language rather than fix something he didn't feel needed to be fixed.


I remember that episode! And I liked it. If I remember right, it was called LOUD AS A WHISPER. Featuring THIS guy, right? If it's not this guy, then I don't remember what you're talking about.


(http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/v22episodes/1204061/p1204061_e_v8_ab.jpg)


But see, in Wakanda's case? None of the issues you're talking about exist. Wakandans? Already know what it's like to be "deaf", having trained without the aid of sound for years during their warrior training. Wakandans? Already know how to sign...a rich reservoir of ancestral knowledge passed down to them first as silent signals by their hunter-gatherer ancestors from over a million years ago; signals initially transmitting information necessary to hunt and/or avoid being hunted, and evolving to express a wide variety of highly complex information. Wakandan Sign Language is as ubiquitous as Drow Sign Language. Remember the Wakandan hunts which are still conducted in unbroken tradition which even T'Challa must take part of [ which we see below ]? Notice that the hunt is USUALLY silent. Absent noise. Depending on which kind it is, the royal retinue accompanying T'Challa during the hunt is ALSO silent, and must rely upon traditional hand signals, etc. to meet and master the challenge of the day. No advanced tech is allowed to operate in support of the hunt.

(https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/0/7604/4563337-panther01.jpg)


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/a5/6a/bfa56a2bce258e3275b4fe947907970c.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/d0/16/9a/d0169adf414e520fb1b0e38c2e2d217f--cool-facts-awesome-facts.jpg?nii=t)

I can't find the Priest Era picture that really helps to bring my point home,but...I hope you catch my drift.

So. In Wakanda. Such issues of learning the need to sign, are nonissues because Wakandans already sign. In Wakanda? Literally evryone has already experienced deafness, so prejudices against such are nonexistent. All of the other issues you mentioned are similarly nonissues in Wakanda because the entire population has in their own lives direct experiences of deafness...for years...and such experiences are sufficient to remove the Audism and similar issues that plague even societies as advanced as The Federation.

However. Wakanda? Is a warrior society too; tasked with [ among other things ] the protection of Earth and all of its life forms. As a matter of survival? Being able to hear is better than not being able to hear. That's not really up to subjective interpretation. You're able to hear lethal threats, the timely warning of a colleague, the creak of a straining roof support structure, the warning rattle of a rattle snake, etc...without which one may still survive quite well, but not as well as if you received the same Warrior training AND had low grade pinnacle human full scale senses, including hearing and perceptions like the "proximity sense" which helped our ancestors to hunt. In fact, even psychologists of today have not only stated that we have a 6th sense, but that we should trust it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/long-fuse-big-bang/201504/yes-you-have-sixth-sense-and-you-should-trust-it (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/long-fuse-big-bang/201504/yes-you-have-sixth-sense-and-you-should-trust-it)

Wakandans have developed all of the human senses to what amounts to the lower end of pinnacle human stuff. A shortened list of the 21 human senses would be detailed here:

http://www.meditation24-7.com/page18/page18.html (http://www.meditation24-7.com/page18/page18.html)

Europeans are comfortable with the notion of 21 human senses.

If I understand a tiny portion of our ancestors' writing and knowledge, then our ancestors and Wakandans would believe we have 42 Senses...precisely and deliberately the same number of Confessions in Maat. The extra 9 senses include a significant amount of what would later be called superhuman and/or superhero senses.

http://www.blackhistoryheroes.com/2013/02/42-laws-of-maat-under-kemet-law-and.html (http://www.blackhistoryheroes.com/2013/02/42-laws-of-maat-under-kemet-law-and.html)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 20, 2019, 04:09:59 am
>>>Supreme



Keep going...
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 20, 2019, 12:33:30 pm
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 20, 2019, 02:02:35 pm
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?






No challengers?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 20, 2019, 05:19:39 pm
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?






No challengers?


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a2/HighEvoAnniConquest.jpg/250px-HighEvoAnniConquest.jpg)


I am kinda surprised that none of our fellow HEFfas rose to the challenge/question posed about T'Challa and the HE. I deliberately thought about The HE as an adversary for T'Challa in a brain vs brain duel, because the large and most blatant body of Marvel canon seems to make it clear that The HE would absolutely moonwalk on T'Challa. The HE squared off with Galactus and held his own...by himself...for a good while, back during the era in Marvel when Galactus was just Donkey Kong'in everyone. The HE is an evolved, superhuman, pinnacle intellect...a cosmic powered being of mystery, whose history and stats are extensive and impressive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Evolutionary

Can anyone find a way that T'Challa might be able to hold his own against and/or defeat The HE?

From the Wikipedia of The HE: "The High Evolutionary has evolved his intelligence to the upper limit of human potential, and is the only human whose intelligence and knowledge has been listed as equal to certain cosmic entities.[40] He is considered the leading geneticist in the Marvel universe, and is vastly knowledgeable in biology, chemistry, medicine, physics, engineering, human psychology, computer science, and cybernetics.

Due to experimentation on his own genome, his highly enhanced brain and cybernetic exoskeleton, the High Evolutionary has demonstrated god-like powers; such as the ability to evolve and devolve life-forms, manipulate matter at a subatomic level, create matter, energy manipulation and projection, cosmic awareness, precognition, telepathy, telekinesis, extra-dimensional travel, and size alteration. On one occasion, he managed to hold his own against Galactus for a prolonged time before being defeated.[41]

Of note, the High Evolutionary has forged weapons for his New Men that show some anti-mystical properties, as demonstrated by a lance wielded by the Beast that was actually able to damage the Darkhold..."

How can T'Challa defeat THAT^^^?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CvilleWakandan on May 21, 2019, 12:13:59 pm
I would do a story that picks up the "Wild Kingdom" threads. HE(High Evolutionary) could be interested in the mutated animals and he enters WKs' boarders to collect some of them. Tchalla meets him and tells him to leave, but the HE wont. They fight, but Tchalla cant get past his tech. HE gets past the Vb and evolves Tchalla into a panther. But due to his connection to Bast he keeps his intellect. A cat and mouse game ensues eventually leading to the Tech Jungle. Tchalla tricks the HE onto a platform that uses Shadow Physics to teleport him back to Counter Earth. Tchalla turns back to human once WK geneticist work on him.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 21, 2019, 01:16:59 pm
I would do a story that picks up the "Wild Kingdom" threads. HE(High Evolutionary) could be interested in the mutated animals and he enters WKs' boarders to collect some of them. Tchalla meets him and tells him to leave, but the HE wont. They fight, but Tchalla cant get past his tech. HE gets past the Vb and evolves Tchalla into a panther. But due to his connection to Bast he keeps his intellect. A cat and mouse game ensues eventually leading to the Tech Jungle. Tchalla tricks the HE onto a platform that uses Shadow Physics to teleport him back to Counter Earth. Tchalla turns back to human once WK geneticist work on him.

(https://i.imgur.com/1qIbAp5.gif)



Always wanted to read a story revolved around this visual sequence. (https://i.imgur.com/0ReXA0j.gif)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CKW on May 21, 2019, 03:35:56 pm
High Evolutionary sent his best to Wakanda:


(https://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l486/Flamingchariot3/togreatness.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/Flamingchariot3/media/togreatness.jpg.html)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: CKW on May 21, 2019, 03:43:01 pm
And it did not go well...

(https://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l486/Flamingchariot3/preparations.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/Flamingchariot3/media/preparations.jpg.html)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 21, 2019, 05:16:57 pm
And it did not go well...

(https://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l486/Flamingchariot3/preparations.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/Flamingchariot3/media/preparations.jpg.html)
[/quote ]

I had no idea that Wakanda was involved in the Savage Land/HE crossover thingy from the 1980's [ I'm pretty sure that was the early 1980's, right? ] That's a real find right there, CKW!

I would do a story that picks up the "Wild Kingdom" threads. HE(High Evolutionary) could be interested in the mutated animals and he enters WKs' boarders to collect some of them. Tchalla meets him and tells him to leave, but the HE wont. They fight, but Tchalla cant get past his tech. HE gets past the Vb and evolves Tchalla into a panther. But due to his connection to Bast he keeps his intellect. A cat and mouse game ensues eventually leading to the Tech Jungle. Tchalla tricks the HE onto a platform that uses Shadow Physics to teleport him back to Counter Earth. Tchalla turns back to human once WK geneticist work on him.


(https://i.imgur.com/1qIbAp5.gif)



Always wanted to read a story revolved around this visual sequence. (https://i.imgur.com/0ReXA0j.gif)



I had no idea that The BP was involved in that Savage Land thingy with the HE back in the 1980's! That's a real find, CKW! You pulled that off like you were there when it happened. What does CKW stand for anyway...Current King of Wakanda? Lol.

Before I get into what I like about this idea? Let me point out the racism in the depictions of the stereotypical spear chunkin savagery of the Wakandans who aren't T'Challa in the pix above. Let me point out the jarring dissonance of the pix of bruthas carrying rude spears, being bare chested and rockin loin cloths on the one hand...then jarrignly revealing hypertech hidden under a bush while T'Challa explains the Panther Paw pimp-slappery he handed out to them. There's no connective tissue between the two scenes. That's why we need Black writers who love T'Challa...not wakk writers and/or writers like TurnCoates who's vomiting upon T'Challa TurnCoates' lack of plotting, imagination, and regard for the character...always rockin with the BP and Wakanda. That scene of spear chuckin Wakandans in loin cloth juxtaposed to the hypertech with no connective tissue turning what could have been a truly incredible moment into a jarring piece of plotting that wrecked our willingness to suspend disbelief for the sake of the narrative shows us the importance that having the Black perspective gives us. We Afrakan writers would NOT have missed that note and would have taken pains to ensure that the transition SANG R-E-S-P-E-C-T T'Challa like Aretha Franklin herself [ Lawd do I miss her ] rocked the Royal Wakandan Palace. In noting how huge a miss such an opportunity was, it makes me give huge props to Coogler who made sure he packed the MCU PANTHER movie with tons of shots exploiting exactly this dynamic, and of course we HEFfas must give extra preposterous props to CJP and our own R to the H and of course the scary smarts of the dearly and far too early departed Dwayne "Maestro" McDuffie who are the true original architects of the cultural beauty mixed with theoretical hypertech that is Wakanda.

With the above out of the way...

...The rest of the HE vs Panther idea that CKW, Battle and Cville kicked are terrific ideas! The notion that T'Challa, T'Chaka and most if not all Panthers could at will transform into panthers...like Werepanthers...is something that was brought up awhile ago on this forum, and largely applauded. I both like the idea and have a few reservations about it.

But I definitely don't see the HE getting away with evolving T'Challa into a panther, if T'Challa doesn't want that to happen. Why? Because T'Challa is very aware of the New Men, and the HE's part in that. T'Challa would have long put into place the necessary counters, misdirections, preventive measures, and neutralizers to such a gambit. The same nearly impenenetrable defenses T'Challa has against being polymorphed into Marvel Zombies, vampires, or other creatures/animals by malevolent forces, evil magic, etc. would present formidable defenses against the HE "evolving" T'Challa into a panther against T'Challa's will. If these defenses weren't in place? Then the many hundreds if not thousands of powerful evil or amoral arch-mages whom Wakanda and/or The Panthers trounced over the last million years would have succeeded in taking over Wakanda long ago.

I see that the notion that T'Challa retains his intellect even in FEPF [ Forced Evolved Panther Form ] could be a nod to T'Challa's defenses and prep not being fully overwhelmed by the formidable HE genetic prowess and powers, and I for one would definitely read that story. It seems really well thought out, fun and compelling.

But. After seeing THIS? I think a very good argument can be made justifying why I or others don't think that the HE can FEPF T'Challa into a panther.

(http://i.imgur.com/i2un4P1l.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/qZ5eoiJl.jpg)

However, an even more interesting compromise between the formidable prowess of each character exists. And that's if HE starts to FEPF T'Challa, because T'Challa's defenses aren't potent enough to fully shut out the HE in his area of supreme expertise...genetics...but T'Challa's defenses ARE potent enough to halt the HE midway through the forced full transformation that the HE wants; and later restore T'Challa to full human BP status.

Result? T'Challa is now a fully functional Werepanther, with his megaintellect intact. Something like the Werepanther form we see TPG has granted to its avatar that is facing down T'Challa in Peter B. Gillis' much overlooked but classic miniseries: CRY, THE ACCURSED COUNTRY.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D1_KuWzXG4A/VNph93_jjQI/AAAAAAAAEsM/TYsePY9McBQ/s1600/2946752-panther%2B%234%2B-%2B7.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AW2D7GW8UhA/VNph9uRzADI/AAAAAAAAEsU/6hg2TY4tr7Y/s1600/26896-4045-29850-1-black-panther.jpg)

I'm prolly gonna go back and get that miniseries. It was the first miniseries featuring Panther that I read that had zero scenes of T'Challa being tossed into Suckaville [ you know, the tired tropes of: T'Challa constantly bleeding, talking, and running from one place to another just to get beat bloody, talk some more and run some more to repeat the last beat bloody-yackity yack and run process. Or T'Challa constantly needing to be rescued by White heroes, or getting beat up or even hit by average White no-name thugs, or getting stomped by some villain that White heroes pimp slap, etc etc. ].
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ezyo on May 21, 2019, 08:29:21 pm
Before there can be an epic battle between T'Challa and the HE, the current creative team needs to be overhauled
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 21, 2019, 10:02:12 pm
Before there can be an epic battle between T'Challa and the HE, the current creative team needs to be overhauled

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/744/20954030_831592997016553_6062127520271218546_n_-_Edited_(1).jpg)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Battle on May 22, 2019, 11:29:18 am
I really like these two panels.  Says it all...

(https://i.imgur.com/ijX4VEj.jpg)


"This jungle is a hotbed of knowledge!



Of this limited series, I only have #1 & #3.  Interesting seeing the covers of books I've missed for so many years.   :)

(https://i.imgur.com/PW6t6GA.jpg)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 24, 2019, 02:25:37 pm
I really like these two panels.  Says it all...

(https://i.imgur.com/ijX4VEj.jpg)


"This jungle is a hotbed of knowledge!



Of this limited series, I only have #1 & #3.  Interesting seeing the covers of books I've missed for so many years.   :)

(https://i.imgur.com/PW6t6GA.jpg)


Except for the horrible coloring and stereotypical dress of the person next to T'Challa [ Zuri? ], I'm feelin those panels too!
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 24, 2019, 06:58:33 pm
Soooo....


...what if The Stranger and Maximus the Mad for whatever reason reanimated The Horde with a variant of the genetic code that put them to sleep when Iron Man, Ghost Rider and The Avengers stopped them, so now the previous method of control is useless and the only immediate method of controlling the swarms of Horde on Earth are in the control of The Stranger and Maximus...

...and T'Challa has to outsmart and outfight them both in order to save Earth. How would T'Challa do that? CAN T'Challa do that?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 25, 2019, 06:40:05 am
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?

Eh, HE always loses.  But it could be fun if his "son" showed up to save him from T'Challa.  Warlock vs T'Challa would be interesting.  (depending on which version of Warlock.  One version became the Living Tribunal--Of course, Starlin wrote that.)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 25, 2019, 07:27:50 am
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?

Eh, HE always loses.  But it could be fun if his "son" showed up to save him from T'Challa.  Warlock vs T'Challa would be interesting.  (depending on which version of Warlock.  One version became the Living Tribunal--Of course, Starlin wrote that.)



Yes, T'Challa vs Warlock would also be quite interesting. I remember suggesting such a matchup before, but it was T'Challa vs Zombie Warlock and Zombie Guardians of the Galaxy [ the Original Guardians ]. Which Warlock are you thinking of? And the "whys" behind such a scrap would be as interesting as the fight itself.

But I also think that the straight up throwdown with T'Challa vs Stranger, Maximus and the revamped Horde would be a massive, massive test of T'Challa's prep and abilities in every regard. I do think that T'Challa would kill Maximus for this affront, though.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 25, 2019, 11:26:41 am
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?

Eh, HE always loses.  But it could be fun if his "son" showed up to save him from T'Challa.  Warlock vs T'Challa would be interesting.  (depending on which version of Warlock.  One version became the Living Tribunal--Of course, Starlin wrote that.)



Yes, T'Challa vs Warlock would also be quite interesting. I remember suggesting such a matchup before, but it was T'Challa vs Zombie Warlock and Zombie Guardians of the Galaxy [ the Original Guardians ]. Which Warlock are you thinking of? And the "whys" behind such a scrap would be as interesting as the fight itself.

But I also think that the straight up throwdown with T'Challa vs Stranger, Maximus and the revamped Horde would be a massive, massive test of T'Challa's prep and abilities in every regard. I do think that T'Challa would kill Maximus for this affront, though.

Which Warlock?  There are so many options.

You could actually go the marvel route... first Warlock fights BP then they team  up to battle Stranger and Maximus.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: Ezyo on May 25, 2019, 05:03:45 pm
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?

Eh, HE always loses.  But it could be fun if his "son" showed up to save him from T'Challa.  Warlock vs T'Challa would be interesting.  (depending on which version of Warlock.  One version became the Living Tribunal--Of course, Starlin wrote that.)



Yes, T'Challa vs Warlock would also be quite interesting. I remember suggesting such a matchup before, but it was T'Challa vs Zombie Warlock and Zombie Guardians of the Galaxy [ the Original Guardians ]. Which Warlock are you thinking of? And the "whys" behind such a scrap would be as interesting as the fight itself.

But I also think that the straight up throwdown with T'Challa vs Stranger, Maximus and the revamped Horde would be a massive, massive test of T'Challa's prep and abilities in every regard. I do think that T'Challa would kill Maximus for this affront, though.

Which Warlock?  There are so many options.

You could actually go the marvel route... first Warlock fights BP then they team  up to battle Stranger and Maximus.

I like this. BP needs more team ups and that would make this more fun as well due to the throw back to classic Marvel then go for the real bads
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 28, 2019, 01:02:09 pm
Now. With the above being said, let's return to the topic of the thread.

T'Challa vs The High Evolutionary, who is an extremely. Extremely. Formidable intellect. Maybe they clash because The HE sees Interstellar Empire Wakanda as a menace hundreds or thousands of years in the future, and the HE wants T'Challa to initiate certain changes now in order to prevent the future menace of Wakanda? Or something?

Who wins, T'Chalal or The HE? And why?


Eh, HE always loses.  But it could be fun if his "son" showed up to save him from T'Challa.  Warlock vs T'Challa would be interesting.  (depending on which version of Warlock.  One version became the Living Tribunal--Of course, Starlin wrote that.)




Yes, T'Challa vs Warlock would also be quite interesting. I remember suggesting such a matchup before, but it was T'Challa vs Zombie Warlock and Zombie Guardians of the Galaxy [ the Original Guardians ]. Which Warlock are you thinking of? And the "whys" behind such a scrap would be as interesting as the fight itself.

But I also think that the straight up throwdown with T'Challa vs Stranger, Maximus and the revamped Horde would be a massive, massive test of T'Challa's prep and abilities in every regard. I do think that T'Challa would kill Maximus for this affront, though.


Which Warlock?  There are so many options.

You could actually go the marvel route... first Warlock fights BP then they team  up to battle Stranger and Maximus.


I like this. BP needs more team ups and that would make this more fun as well due to the throw back to classic Marvel then go for the real bads


What would you say is the primary difference between T'Challa's intelligence, and Reed Richards' intelligence? Priest specifically said that T'Challa is the "shrewdest man" on Earth. Being shrewd is definitely being smart, but it's more nuanced and carries more of an action and good judgement type of connotation. Our own R to the H flat out said that T'Challa is "...smarter than Reed Richards..." and can kick Captain America's butt. Which to me? Makes PERFECT SENSE, given the cauldron and foundation of Wakanda from which he emerged. But none of this draws particularly clear lines of demarcation in the sands of intelligence, so to speak. We definitely see T'Challa's cultural and spiritually honed WISDOM here:

(http://1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/83/18/0ab4107268878d093bbc4da90a919120.jpg)


And both his wisdom and shrewdness here, with Hickman's first issue of NEW AVENGERS

(http://0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/71/50/17441c40d08de39c88f1c8e6831ab22e.jpg)


And again here, where T'Challa gives Reed some sorely needed advice:

(https://abload.de/img/civilwar3page01gyj0c.png)

But what we want to see is a scientific megagenius duel. Let's be honest. We wanna see that. Or at least speculate with some very grounded reasons to guesstimate the results of such a showdown. Let's see if we can find reasons that Reed might outperform T'Challa and vice versa. Then see which of these reasons are powerful enough to add to the more weighty conclusion of victory for one of these two.


I meantioned the HE [ High Evolutionary ] before, and CKW brought up the fact that T'Challa already bested high tech would be invaders of Wakanda sent by HE. But that's merely the prelude to an actual Brain vs Brain throwdown between the two. How could T'Challa actually outsmart HE, and what circumstances would compel them to duel with one another?
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 28, 2019, 04:08:12 pm
SI asked which Warlock would make for a good fight....I think I've decided that the best battle would be BP vs the original Starlin version of Magus.  In many ways, that Magus is the Evil Black Panther.  Warlock/Magus is the superior man, who is incredibly shrewd, a plotter on the level of Thanos or T'Challa.  (That shrewd brain took over an interstellar empire.)  Plus, like the BP, he's the center of a religion.
He has access to advance tech and magic, plus he has the Soul Stone.  Thanos found that the only way to beat him was to stop Warlock from becoming Magus.
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 28, 2019, 09:03:42 pm
SI asked which Warlock would make for a good fight....I think I've decided that the best battle would be BP vs the original Starlin version of Magus.  In many ways, that Magus is the Evil Black Panther.  Warlock/Magus is the superior man, who is incredibly shrewd, a plotter on the level of Thanos or T'Challa.  (That shrewd brain took over an interstellar empire.)  Plus, like the BP, he's the center of a religion.
He has access to advance tech and magic, plus he has the Soul Stone.  Thanos found that the only way to beat him was to stop Warlock from becoming Magus.


Awwww YEAHYUH!!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/70/9f/54709fccc83c315abfbb46df4a171dd5.jpg)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: JRCarter on June 01, 2019, 05:32:16 pm
Found this lurking on Reddit:

(https://i.redd.it/u1zad3l5iwp21.jpg)
Title: Re: LET'S TALK T'CHALLA'S IQ VS 616 EARTH BIG BRAINS
Post by: supreme illuminati on June 01, 2019, 09:36:19 pm
Found this lurking on Reddit:

(https://i.redd.it/u1zad3l5iwp21.jpg)


HAHAHAHAHAHA I LOOOOOVE IT!!