Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Panther Politics => Topic started by: michaelintp on March 13, 2008, 09:46:33 pm

Title: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 13, 2008, 09:46:33 pm
I knew that Reginald was working on a story that was going to touch on politics ... which can be quite interesting.  The sentiments that he conveys, regarding the European Colonialist oppression of Africans and the horrors of the slave trade, are of course correct. 

However, in reading the entire book, I had the distinct impression that Reginald was going beyond that.  That he was drawing an express parallel between the slave-trading imperialistic European Powers of centuries past and the United States of America of today.  Perhaps also drawing an implicit parallel between the "terrorists" [word used in the book] who fought against white oppression in Africa centuries ago with those whom we call terrorists today.  Though in fairness the latter point was not explicitly made, so it may not have been the author's intention to go that far.

Just as we saw at the outset of Reginald's run in BP, again we see America portrayed as an oppressive conqueror attacking an innocent isolationist people ... as stated in the book:

"After securing what they called a 'Pax Americana' they turned their attention to international targets, did they not?  Their first targets were easy ones to rally international support behind, even though the precedent was dangerous.  No tears were shed over the death of Doom.  Nor the destruction of Atlantis, which was literally out of everyone's eyesight.  Father's close relationships with the U.S. kept you off the target list for a while, but inevitably, any autonomous power with our resources and the ability to defend them was too much for them to tolerate.  Eventually war came to our doorstep."

While we did discuss similar themes in the first few issues of Hudlin's Black Panther some time ago on this forum, I found it striking that, years later, we would again see the same portrait of America as international oppressor.  This appears to be a recurring theme.   

On this point, after reading these pages, I could not help but think about the very real (horrific bigoted genocidal) geopolitical forces confronting us today.  The Islamic Republic of Iran is not Wakanda.  Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not the Black Panther.  These points are obvious.

... so after reading these passages ... I was left ... just shaking my head. 
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on March 14, 2008, 12:26:37 am
Michael, have you been following the Civil War storyline?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: bluezulu on March 14, 2008, 05:41:00 am
I believe we must always have dialogue about issues from the past no matter how uncomfortable it may be. Drawing parallels between current, past and the fictional marvel u politics is what this book has done since issue 1.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on March 15, 2008, 05:23:19 pm

I can't wait for Hugo Chavez to show up as a key negotiator for Wakandan control of the western hemisphere.  ;)
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 15, 2008, 08:15:03 pm
Michael, have you been following the Civil War storyline?

At the time I wrote my post, the answer was "Nope, not totally up to date."  The only book I read "religiously" is The Black Panther.

Prompted by your question, I did look into it.  I read the "Sub-Mariner" 7-issue mini-series and discovered that far from a sinister American plot to conquer the world and destroy any and all potential threats, the U.S. did not invade, nor did it destroy, Atlantis.  Tony Stark says to Namor in their final interchange, "We don't want to govern Atlantis.  I've convinced my generals that occupation is not the answer.  But they insist on a monitoring presence ..." [immediately outside of Atlantis].  In the storyline it is Namor who evacuates his citizens to blend into the human population and then Namor blows up Atlantis.  This conflict with Atlantis was precipitated by a sleeper cell from Atlantis blowing up an American town -- a sleeper cell (as it turned out) not controlled by Namor.  So Tony Stark believed that he was acting in self-defense.  It was a misunderstanding.

So too with the conflict with Dr. Doom -- the hostilities were promoted by the release from a Latverian satelite of a "Venom Virus" that turned the population of Manhattan into Venom-like monsters.  Though this biological weapon was indeed Doom's, he did not release it.  It was released as a result of an accident.  The Avengers' action against Doom was perceived by them as self-defense, but again, it was based on a misunderstanding.

So the theme in the present Civil War storyline can be summed up as "misunderstandings can cause wars" or that "erroneous intelligence can cause wars" (thus reflecting current real world sentiments about the original invasion of Iraq).  With the not so subtle message to the reader that we should be careful not to let this happen again.  What this theme ignores is that in some instances wars of self-defense are indeed justified and may be necessary to prevent greater suffering in a larger more devastating war later.

However, these two storylines do not convey the more radical sentiment expressed in your BP Annual.  You seem to be taking it one step further, blaming America, casting America as the vicious aggressor, and in the case of attacking innocent isolationist Wakanda, as a destructive force bent on world domination. 

Perhaps I misread your message, but it did seem pretty clear to me that you were comparing the U.S. of today (fighting "terrorists") with the vicious slave-trading imperialists of the past (who also claimed to be fighting "terrorists").  If you did not intend to make this comparison in your storyline, well ... that's the way it came across.  At least to me.  Based on what I just read in the most recent Civil War storyline developments, I don't think you were bound by the events in the Marvel Universe to portray our country or our military in this manner.

The message you convey in the comic book is not helpful, in light of the present struggle our nation, and the world, is engaged in.  While a single comic book will not have a significant effect on attitudes, multiply this a thousand times in Hollywood and Media productions and ... the effect can be harmful.  Perhaps even helpful to those who would like to destroy us ... by paralyzing the American will.

Anywayzzz ... that was my reaction to the book.  (Sorry)

As an aside, I did get a kick out of your use of King Soloman's Golden Frogs in the earlier Black Panther storyline.  That was a real tribute to Jack Kirby's original classic story.  ;)
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 21, 2008, 05:00:21 pm
A little while ago one of the members of the forum asked me why the "Black Panther" is the only comic book that I read religiously.  I'm just sharing this with you all because ... whenever Reginald Hudlin does write something that pushes my buttons, I don't restrain myself from commenting.  By the same token, when he does something I love, I've shared that as well.  But when I do "lay into" him a bit, as in the posts above, I hope nobody misunderstands my motivation.  I do find his treatment of politics interesting ... even when his treatment really gets my goat.  I hope everyone takes it in that spirit. 

Anyway, just to balance the comments a little, I thought I would share with you what I told one of the members of the forum regarding my loyalty to Reginald Hudlin's writing:

Well, some time ago I posted on this thread a lot.  Got to know Reginald Hudlin and have met him a few times as well.  He's a good guy and an interesting guy (though we strongly disagree on some issues, most notably the one I've address in my post).  Hudlin does address political issues of varied sorts, and race issues, and I find this interesting.  He has a great sense of humor and that comes through in much of his writing as well.  And he has a knowledge of some of the classics written by the "Marvel Bullpen" when I was a kid and has a good sense of the characters.

The first thing I read of his was his Spider-Man storyline (a couple of years ago)[Friendly Neighborhood, I don't recall which one, but you can find it].  He broke the mold in his treatment of Evangelical Christians [not the classic "blast the stupid hicks" stereotype but actually a more complex treatment] in a Superman take off. 

So I've become kinda loyal to him.

All the best,
Mike
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on March 26, 2008, 08:50:21 am
Hey Mike, just to offer a different interpretation, America could certainly be seen in the annual as being not so much a global oppressor, but a self-appointed global policeman, which is certainly something the current administration have talked about aiming at being (even allowing for them having the best of intentions, hypothetically). It's not hard to translate that stated aim into what we saw in the annual, through the prism of superhumans. In this context, the story even shows the pros and cons of such a position - a dangerous dictator like Doom can be taken down quickly and without interference, but other 'Rogue states' may not be as deserving targets, and even then, may prove to be more than you can handle.

Also, as stated, the portrayal of America and specifically Tony Stark as head of SHIELD since Civil War doesn't make the annual's story look at all far-fetched. If you read some of the actual Civil War title, or any number of surrounding ones, you'll see why so many fans are cheering at the moment whenever Stark gets his arse kicked, and why the current interpretation of his character is very close to what we saw in the annual.

I'd also like to say, for any of the more recent members, Mike doesn't match the typical views of most HEFfas, but he's always willing to discuss those differing views in a civil manner, and has a genuine appreciation for Reggie's work.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Gooch on March 26, 2008, 04:37:41 pm
yeah mike is cool peoples
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 26, 2008, 11:24:40 pm
But then, Wise Son, why the whole historical backdrop thing leading up to the American invasion?  The Western Imperialists, evil Slave Traders, fighting "terrorists" who are really freedom fighters.  The storyline seemed to portray this as a pattern, as a progression ... leading ultimately to the U.S. seeking to subjugate and destroy the isolationist Wakandans, just as the Western Imperialists had dominated and enslaved Africans in the past. In terms of a narrative, I don't see the point of that backdrop unless the purpose was to convey a parallel.

At least to me, the entire context of the storyline was not crafted to convey the message, "The U.S. acting as the world's policeman may innocently make a boo boo."   :D

... oh wait, excuse me, I just received a telex from my good colleague with the House Un-American Activities Committee ... a Hollywood writer and executive, one Reginald Hudlin, has been subpoenaed to testify tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM sharp in the John Parnell Thomas Congressional Office Building.  This will be an open session.  The public and press are invited to attend.  This should be good.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on March 27, 2008, 07:12:13 am


... oh wait, excuse me, I just received a telex from my good colleague with the House Un-American Activities Committee ... a Hollywood writer and executive, one Reginald Hudlin, has been subpoenaed to testify tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM sharp in the John Parnell Thomas Congressional Office Building.  This will be an open session.  The public and press are invited to attend.  This should be good.

I won't be pleading the fifth, believe that.  I got something to say.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 27, 2008, 07:25:43 am


... oh wait, excuse me, I just received a telex from my good colleague with the House Un-American Activities Committee ... a Hollywood writer and executive, one Reginald Hudlin, has been subpoenaed to testify tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM sharp in the John Parnell Thomas Congressional Office Building.  This will be an open session.  The public and press are invited to attend.  This should be good.

I won't be pleading the fifth, believe that.  I got something to say.
;D
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on March 27, 2008, 07:51:36 am
But then, Wise Son, why the whole historical backdrop thing leading up to the American invasion?  The Western Imperialists, evil Slave Traders, fighting "terrorists" who are really freedom fighters.  The storyline seemed to portray this as a pattern, as a progression ... leading ultimately to the U.S. seeking to subjugate and destroy the isolationist Wakandans, just as the Western Imperialists had dominated and enslaved Africans in the past. In terms of a narrative, I don't see the point of that backdrop unless the purpose was to convey a parallel.
Well, I would first point out that a lot of America's problems in the world come from the fact that that is exactly how you (and the other superpowers like the UK and Europe) are seen by many many people. The fact that the story, being told from a Wakandan perspective, should have that theme is actually pretty fitting, even if there is much more complexity to it than that.

In terms of the narrative of the characters, it there are narrative reasons. Previously, T'Challa was distinct from other Panthers for being a genius. Reggie has flipped this to his distinction being the Panther who ended Wakanda's isolation, for better or for worse. This story was a good examination of the best and the worst. As far as Stark, he is very much a representation (not just in Panther, but in 616 titles in general since Civil War) of not just America, but the specific neo-con attitude of the current administration. Considering that the Neo-Cons are very explicit about using developing countries as little more than tools as they try to reshape the world ('bringing democracy to the Middle East' is not an end in itself, but rather a tool to further the US's interests to these people, as spelled out in the Project for the New American Century), they do seem to set themselves up as the descendants of the attitudes you talk about.
At least to me, the entire context of the storyline was not crafted to convey the message, "The U.S. acting as the world's policeman may innocently make a boo boo."   :D
Well, I'd certainly argue that the idea of a unilateral 'world policeman' is a dangerous one, if not one doomed to failure and strife for everyone concerned. Just because the US is the one trying to do it at the moment doesn't mean that I see it as a specifically American problem. Any country doing this will have it's judgement compromised by it's own interests coming into opposition with it's self-appointed role. That's what's compromising the UN's effectiveness lately, but I think that the answer will always lie with finding a way to make multi-lateral organisations work, rather than resorting to unilateral actions.
... oh wait, excuse me, I just received a telex from my good colleague with the House Un-American Activities Committee ... a Hollywood writer and executive, one Reginald Hudlin, has been subpoenaed to testify tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM sharp in the John Parnell Thomas Congressional Office Building.  This will be an open session.  The public and press are invited to attend.  This should be good.
Cool, take notes for me  ;)
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 27, 2008, 07:33:40 pm
Oh, just in case someone missed my little historical reference joke to the "John Parnell Thomas Congressional Office Building" -- Congressman John Parnell Thomas was the Chair of the House Un-American Activities Commitee in 1947, when a group of Hollywood Reds (heeheehee) were called to testify before the Committee and were singularly rude and uncooperative.  Y'know, the "Hollywood 10."    ;D
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on March 27, 2008, 07:54:31 pm
Well, I'd certainly argue that the idea of a unilateral 'world policeman' is a dangerous one, if not one doomed to failure and strife for everyone concerned. Just because the US is the one trying to do it at the moment doesn't mean that I see it as a specifically American problem.

Well, it may not be "specifically" an American problem, but ol' Mr. Hudlin sure was pointin' (or givin') the ol' finger to America.

... and as to the United States of America being the World's Policeman ... oh man, if only we had infinite resources and manpower ... that would be just swell!  The world would be a much better place.   ;)

Hmmmm ... if only we had superheroes ...
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on March 28, 2008, 05:08:27 am
Well, it may not be "specifically" an American problem, but ol' Mr. Hudlin sure was pointin' (or givin') the ol' finger to America.
Well, you are the only ones trying to do it at the moment. What, he's going to point the finger at Papua New Guinea? ;) But, just to reiterate, it's not like I think any other country would be better at it than America, I just think it's a bad idea for anyone to try.
... and as to the United States of America being the World's Policeman ... oh man, if only we had infinite resources and manpower ... that would be just swell!  The world would be a much better place.   ;)

Hmmmm ... if only we had superheroes ...
:o
See, like I said, it's just not a good idea. Even given infinite reources and manpower, some kind of mechanism to reduce the effect of national vested interests would be the only way to even get close to making it work. Also, as I acknowledged, the UN's been frequently paralysed by just these interests, but I do think that the future lies in finding a way to make the UN or whatever follows it (just as it followed the League of Nations) work, rather than in unilateral action (or 'wars' as they're more commonly known).
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on March 28, 2008, 06:47:58 am
... and as to the United States of America being the World's Policeman ... oh man, if only we had infinite resources and manpower ... that would be just swell!  The world would be a much better place.   ;)

Hmmmm ... if only we had superheroes ...
I know you say this jokingly, but I do think that is the heart of the matter. Many of those who support the neo-con perspective say the same thing. They honestly think who better than the USA to lead the way. Well, aside from the obvious fact that we can't afford it, IAWWS, it's still a bad idea.

Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Open palm on March 29, 2008, 10:00:11 pm
Sticking to just content, I was disturbed that Iron Man and the Avengers would obliterate Atlantis. At the moment, the Sub-Mariner destroyed it himself and scattered his people around the world. But to think that it be destroyed by outsiders is a disturbing idea. I don't think the surface world has ever cared about Atlantis as a people or their views on the environment.

Lately, much of Marvel's major conflicts swings in favor of dividing peoples instead of getting along with them. I wonder, what would happen if most of the exotic areas just moved to an alternate Earth? Atlantis and its people, the Moon's Blue Area with the Inhumans, Monster Island, the Savage Land, & new Asgard - what if they all moved to a parallel Earth? Would the Earthlings of 616 even care or would they be more relieved that their world has become more mundane? Does such a partition help anybody?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on March 29, 2008, 11:39:40 pm
Nothing makes you more attractive than dumping someone.  So, if all those people and places left, everybody would be trying to go where they go.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Open palm on March 30, 2008, 12:58:53 am
Nothing makes you more attractive than dumping someone.  So, if all those people and places left, everybody would be trying to go where they go.

Wow, I actually thought about that too. But my idea was it would be influenced by villains, like Loki (who'd be left behind), who want to seek out the missing lands.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: KIP LEWIS on March 30, 2008, 06:25:10 am
Sticking to just content, I was disturbed that Iron Man and the Avengers would obliterate Atlantis. At the moment, the Sub-Mariner destroyed it himself and scattered his people around the world. But to think that it be destroyed by outsiders is a disturbing idea. I don't think the surface world has ever cared about Atlantis as a people or their views on the environment.

Lately, much of Marvel's major conflicts swings in favor of dividing peoples instead of getting along with them.

hmm, which goes right along with the Skrull Invasion.  Makes you wonder if the last 5 years of Marvel have been one big storyline.

Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Mastrmynd on March 30, 2008, 08:54:38 am
i think it has...and I think Bendis is gonna be the big cheese after Queseda steps down.
quote it for history if u must.
that's guess.

hmm... what would happen if a BLACK man ran marvel or DC?
bigger than obama for president wouldn't it?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: JLI Jesse on March 30, 2008, 11:35:30 am
Would the Earthlings of 616 even care or would they be more relieved that their world has become more mundane? Does such a partition help anybody?

Well, I'd imagine they'd be relieved.   There is is enough to worry about with the Skrulls, so not having to worry about a "war on the surface dwellers" would be nice.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on April 01, 2008, 08:21:16 am
Well, there probably were African slave-traders who found themselves on the receiving end unexpectedly, but a lot of the work of capturing slaves was 'sub-contracted' to Africans. Of course, I think the responsibility lies with those creating the demand, especially with the supply-belt way that they demanded fresh slaves. For a comparison, it's well known that in Nazi Concentration camps, some inmates were given positions of authority over others, but that doesn't make them somehow complicit in what was done there, IMO.

While Wise Son's post was in the Obama thread, I think the discussion of this issue is more appropriately placed here, as here it is not really a digression.  So here goes.

Clearly you are right that if there had not been such an intense "demand" for slaves, that that slave-traders would not have had the economic incentive to capture them.  So in that respect the fault definitely falls with those who allowed the "demand" to exist, by not abolishing slavery.

On your second point, regarding "sub-contracting" the capture of slaves to Africans (and comparing it to inmates in concentration camps who acted as guards).  The idea of "compelled" sub-contracting was certainly portrayed in the Black Panther Annual.  The Europeans were clearly very brutal in Africa.  But is that the complete picture?  In what ways did slavery exist in Africa prior to the arrival of the Europeans?  Didn't a slave trade of some sort exist in Africa prior to the domination of Africa by the Europeans?  Prior to the major rise in the Western slave trade, what did it primarily comprise, who were the main perpetrators, and who were the main victims?  When the Europeans came, to what extent did they take advantage of a situtation that was already in Africa, and to what extent did they create a whole new industry? One would think to some large extent the latter, as they dramatically increased the demand and directly intervened to increase the supply.  But did existing African structures of slave-capture just increase to satisfy that demand, or did something new, and never before seen in Africa arise, or was it some combination of the two?  Finally, any sense of the percentage of African slave capturers who were actually coerced, and how many voluntarily participated for their own enrichment?  Or did they really have no choice?  While there were instances of coerced slave-capture, is the comparison to prisoners in concentration camps who were coerced to act as guards the best analogy?  In some cases, but not in others?  As you see, I'm just asking a lot of questions here.  Not expressing any viewpoint, because I don't know enough to really express a viewpoint.  I bet there are people of this forum who have studied the matter in depth who can provide more historical background.

Wise Son drew an analogy to the Holocaust.  A thought occurred to me.  Prior to WWII, there had been pogroms in Europe.  But by sheer magnitude the Nazi death machine of assembly-line killing created something entirely new, entirely horrible, for European Jews to suffer.  Does this analogy apply to slavery in Africa and the slave trade?  But then I also think of what is happening in Africa today, or of the Rwandan genocide done "the old fashioned way" and wonder about the magnitude of oppression and subjugation of others into slavery and mass-killing in Africa prior to the arrival of the Europeans.  Anyone with expertise in African history could address these questions, I'm sure.  Of course, Africa is a big continent, and it may have varied from place to place.

Hmmmmm ..... might this have also been part of the "agenda" of Reginald Hudlin, in writing his storyline?  To get people to think about these issues?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on April 01, 2008, 08:27:58 am


Wise Son drew an analogy to the Holocaust.  A thought occurred to me.  Prior to WWII, there had been pogroms in Europe.  But by sheer magnitude the Nazi death machine of assembly-line killing created something entirely new, entirely horrible, for European Jews to suffer.  Does this analogy apply to slavery in Africa and the slave trade? 

Hmmmmm ..... might this have also been part of the "agenda" of Reginald Hudlin, in writing his storyline?  To get people to think about these issues?

Answer to first question:  Yes.

Answer to second question:  Yes.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on April 01, 2008, 08:44:50 am
Reggie pretty succinctly covered some points there. My knowledge of pre-European African slavery isn't encyclopaedic, but what answer I can give are:
In what ways did slavery exist in Africa prior to the arrival of the Europeans?  Didn't a slave trade of some sort exist in Africa prior to the domination of Africa by the Europeans?  Prior to the major rise in the Western slave trade, what did it primarily comprise, who were the main perpetrators, and who were the main victims? 
It did exist, but I understand it to have been in terms of something that was the consequence of your tribe losing out when it came into conflict with another, or if a debt was owed and could not be paid. It is comparable, I think, to Roman or Greek style slavery, and one of the major shifts brought about under the quasi-industrialised European system was that slaves went from being subordinate to being chattel. Rather than being a punishment or penalty, slavery became the most that a captured African could ever aspire to.
When the Europeans came, to what extent did they take advantage of a situtation that was already in Africa, and to what extent did they create a whole new industry? One would think to some large extent the latter, as they dramatically increased the demand and directly intervened to increase the supply.
I think they changed the nature of the industry. Using an contemporary comparison, it seems like the difference between what the Janjaweed in Sudan would be capable of alone, and what they're capable of when the state and miltary are backing them. Again, this isn't my area of expertise, and as you've said, there's definitely at least one or two people on here who can give a more authoritative answer.

But still, it's cool that the Annual's got these subjects under discussion, and having people with differing viewpoints like yourself is something that can help drive thatr discussion, so thanks Mike and Reggie. ;D
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on April 01, 2008, 08:16:04 pm
I found a site that gives a very quick thumbnail sketch of slavery in Africa before and after the European slave trade. 

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=64

Here is a sample of the info (basic info that many of you must know, but frankly I had not studied this since high school and that was a long time ago):

Slavery existed in Africa before the arrival of Europeans--as did a slave trade that exported a small number of sub-Saharan Africans to North Africa, the Middle East, and the Persian Gulf. But this system of slavery differed from the plantation slavery that developed in the New World.

Hereditary slavery, extending over several generations, was rare. Most slaves in Africa were female. Women were preferred because they bore children and because they performed most field labor. Slavery in early sub-Saharan Africa took a variety of forms.
 
Why was Africa so vulnerable to the slave trade? Because of West and Central Africa's political fragmentation. Many of the region's larger political units--such as Ghana and Mali--had declined, and the absence of strong, stable political units made it more difficult to resist the slave trade. [i.e. there was no Wakanda]

Many Americans mistakenly believe that most slaves were captured by Europeans who landed on the African coast and captured or ambushed people. [Such a scene of Europeans capturing Africans was portrayed in the BP Annual, but this summary states this was not the primary source of slaves]. It is important to understand that Europeans were incapable, on their own, of kidnapping 20 million Africans. ...  Professional slave traders ... set up bases along the west African coast where they purchased slaves from Africans in exchange for firearms and other goods.

Between 10 and 16 million Africans were forcibly transported across the Atlantic between 1500 and 1900. But this figure grossly understates the actual number of Africans enslaved, killed, or displaced as a result of the slave trade. At least 2 million Africans--10 to 15 percent--died during the infamous "Middle Passage" across the Atlantic. Another 15 to 30 percent died during the march to or confinement along the coast. Altogether then, for every 100 slaves who reached the New World, 40 died in Africa or during the Middle Passage.

My comments:   What it seems to come down to is greed and a lust for power.  As Reginald confirmed in his own view, the magnitude of the enterprise substantially changed what existed before, creating something horrible beyond imagination. 

Demand for slaves driven by economic considerations in the West, and demand for Western goods on the part of those in positions of power in Africa.  Fragmented African governments seeking to gain advantage over their rivals probably increased their demand for weapons and food.  On the part of the slave traders, a brutal insensitivity to the suffering of fellow human beings, and the denial that the slaves were fellow human beings via the convenient salve of racism.

The thumbnail sketch didn't discuss European imperialists coercing African rulers to cooperate ... though I would not be surprised if this took place.  Don't know if this significantly affected the total magnitude of the slave trade, or just hit the trade on the margins.  Maybe someone here knows. [That theme was, after all, touched upon in the BP Annual as well].
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on April 02, 2008, 08:15:08 am
Thanks for the research Mike. True, the annual showed Africans acting as a proxy army for the Europeans, but not as slave-catchers.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on April 02, 2008, 01:50:32 pm

Walter Rodney's "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" corrects the assumptions of the Cecil Rhodes' school of thought.

http://www.amazon.com/Europe-Underdeveloped-Africa-Walter-Rodney/dp/0882580965/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207169026&sr=1-1

John Thornton's "Africa and Africans in the Making of the Modern World" offer a compelling counterargument to Rodney.

http://www.amazon.com/Africans-Atlantic-1400-1800-Studies-Comparative/dp/0521627249/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207169081&sr=1-1


for my two cents, it is exceedingly difficult to discuss an single "Africa" before 1450 ... it is an imagined construct dating back to Roman rivalries with Carthage -- ultimately producing the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, French, and English monolithic views of "Africans".

similarly, one should be cautious in discussing the relative "fragmentation" of Western Africa between 1450 and 1650 when there were functioning nations and empires that were economically and militarily superior to European entities.

After 1650, however, Rodney's thesis becomes increasingly persuasive ... resulting in the colonial exploitation that follows European abolitionism in the mid-19th century.

Mr. Hudlin deserves a great deal of credit for engaging such a complex history with any sensitivity to the issues Africana Studies have raised over the last forty years.  It would be a shame (and, ultimately, a falsehood) to reduce the discussion to "well, Africans share in the blame for slavery and the trans-Atlantic slave trade."

...re-lurking...
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on April 03, 2008, 06:53:46 am
...re-lurking...
And why is that? The lurking, I mean. Especially busy lately? I understand but I hope you'll find some time to grace us with your contributions soon. Peace, brother.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on April 05, 2008, 02:02:49 pm

Just finished over a year's work on a major conference hosted at my campus -- run solely by 8 students and me -- so my lurking is nearing its end.

Only two more major presentations in the next two weeks, one in DC and the other outside Pittsburgh, and I'm back to the normal schedule.

I think I'll incorporate the BP Annual into my final classes just so I can give myself a little treat for all of my hard work!  :D
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: DamonO on April 20, 2008, 07:31:37 pm
Just thought about this:  Wouldn't it be cool, if next year we could see a scene depicting the Panther and Storm being welcomed back to the White House by President and First Lady Obama as the Prez explains that because of diplomatic immunity, the Royal Couple are not required to adhere to the Super Human Registration Act?

Might also be cool to see Tony Stark fired as the SHIELD director, but I'll settle for just the first scenario.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: JLI Jesse on April 20, 2008, 08:21:20 pm
Just thought about this:  Wouldn't it be cool, if next year we could see a scene depicting the Panther and Storm being welcomed back to the White House by President and First Lady Obama as the Prez explains that because of diplomatic immunity, the Royal Couple are not required to adhere to the Super Human Registration Act?

Might also be cool to see Tony Stark fired as the SHIELD director, but I'll settle for just the first scenario.

Is America still pissed that foreign leaders helped fugitives break out of a government prison on American soil?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: DamonO on April 20, 2008, 08:52:58 pm
Just thought about this:  Wouldn't it be cool, if next year we could see a scene depicting the Panther and Storm being welcomed back to the White House by President and First Lady Obama as the Prez explains that because of diplomatic immunity, the Royal Couple are not required to adhere to the Super Human Registration Act?

Might also be cool to see Tony Stark fired as the SHIELD director, but I'll settle for just the first scenario.

Is America still pissed that foreign leaders helped fugitives break out of a government prison on American soil?

The Negative Zone isn't American soil.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on April 21, 2008, 04:42:03 am
Is America still pissed that foreign leaders helped fugitives break out of a government prison on American soil?
The Negative Zone isn't American soil.
Oooh, good point!
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: JLI Jesse on April 21, 2008, 07:56:59 am
I always figured it was kinda like a Guantanamo Bay situation, where its not technically America but it still counts
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: DamonO on April 21, 2008, 11:48:58 am
I always figured it was kinda like a Guantanamo Bay situation, where its not technically America but it still counts

Hardly. The Negative Zone is not legally American soil.  Reed Richards and Stark put the prison there because they figured no one would mind or try to stop them.  In addition, everyone they have imprisoned there has been denied their right to counsel and a trial. 

If neither one of those clowns were Skrulls when this all went down, they have much to answer for.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 21, 2008, 01:33:20 am
If there is any interest in the matter,I would like to more comprehensively answer the questions our wonderful and dear michaelintp asked and partially answered regarding the slave trade in Africa prior to the entry of Europe.This has been a special interest of mine for awhile; even before I discovered that I have family in Namibia and The Sudan,and even before I began to earnestly seek my Ph.d. in Africana Studies.

Some of the information on the foregoing pages is false; some of it is merely incomplete."How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" is absolutely beautiful,but misses the core of michaelintp's question which--if i understand him aright--centered around slavery PRIOR to Europe.

I believe I can be of service here.If the interest is still there.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on August 21, 2008, 04:10:15 am
Certainly.  I'm eager to see what you think of Thornton's thesis and evidence.

Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on August 25, 2008, 08:48:41 pm
Yes, I'm eager to be enlightened by the Supreme Illuminati!

(Really, share what you know with us ...)
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 26, 2008, 12:19:11 pm
Thank you wg and michaelintp for your interest.It will be in about 48 hours,as my foot still somewhat bothers me from a Skinhead attempt on my life ( sent 4 of the 6 perps to the hospital; long story) and I should be fully recovered by then.What shall follow in that time will be a post focusing on pre-European slavery as it pertains to Africa; both in the African definition of slavery and how its practice slowly altered over the millenia and the convulsions just prior to European penetration and domination.These areas are of the utmost importance if a historically faithful understanding of the African slave trade--the single most horrific occurrence byyyy faaarrr in human history (which says volumes considering horrific things like Auschwitz,the Inquisition,Rwanda,the Crusades and more)--and how these momentous centuries long pogroms lead directly to the collapse of the civilizations of the people who gifted the planet with humanity,human civilization and many of its most magnificent achievements.

Be forewarned: this rigorously accurate and historically faithful response is NOT for the faint of heart.It's a millenia and more of faar more Unpleasant and Inconvenient Truths tha anything Gore could dream up.It will torpedo mercilessly many historically false but cherished beliefs that perhaps quite a few people on HEF hold near and dear.Having had the experience--many a time--of having to rather brutally overcome deeply sentimental but factually false and socially destructive beliefs before,I will apologize ahead of time for what can be some hurtful and disillusioning (but absolutely historically faithful and scientifically accurate) facts that I may have to impart and then rigorously defend once cross-examined (and I guarantee that someone will feel the need to rigorously and minutely examine the data presented for the most minute and infinitesimal inaccuracy.They shall not find it because it doesn't exist; but my experience has shown me that many a reasonable and wonderful person loses every aspect of their reason under these circumstances...and will simply fashion falsehoods to shelter their beliefs rather than allow fact,logic,science,the scientific method and empirical evidence to be the primary elements when determining what they choose to have faith in). Therefore I shall provide my sources,allowing those whom are most interested and motivated to exaine the wellspring and font of most of my information.

If you are able to digest and appreciate the forthcoming information,I daresay that you will appreciate RH,RH BP and Wakanda faar better.You will see very clearly several significant aspects of how and why RH BP has to be the way that he is.Insofar as the fictional narrative of a fictional country can be so,there is categorically no doubt--from a historically rigorously accurate perspective--that fictional Wakanda is the inheritor of the first and premier civilization in world history: the all-Black Ptah-Seti/Wose/etc.  which the Greeks named Ethiopian.You will see easily ad trasparently how the USA and other European powers can have in the same government someone like our beloved michaelintp and the general we saw in RH BP#1...and how the "general types" both greatly outnumber the "michaelintp" types regarding positions of power and how the very decency of the "michaelintp" types binds them to the RH BP #1 General types consistently and unknowingly.

There is more,but I shall reveal it in 48-72 hours.See you then.

 
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on August 26, 2008, 01:33:15 pm
Thank you wg and michaelintp for your interest.It will be in about 48 hours,as my foot still somewhat bothers me from a Skinhead attempt on my life ( sent 4 of the 6 perps to the hospital; long story) and I should be fully recovered by then.

Wait a minute. You done broke your foot off in some skinhead asses? You need to roll with a film crew at all times, SI. You will be telling this story, I hope. I also hope you recover fully.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: michaelintp on August 26, 2008, 11:35:11 pm
I fully share Mr. Metcalf's sentiments, Supreme.  Also ... I'm glad you're OK ... and more. Trying to put my feelings into words would just sound lame, so I'll just leave it at that: "... and more."     

Though I daresay, once you moved on to your introduction of warning, I kinda lost focus ... I'm already feel anxious and woozy (if both feelings can occur at the same time) ... waiting for the next shoe to drop ...   :o
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: Wise Son on August 27, 2008, 05:52:40 am
Wait a minute. You done broke your foot off in some skinhead asses? You need to roll with a film crew at all times, SI. You will be telling this story, I hope. I also hope you recover fully.
Seconded. Personally, I picture SI actually typing out his posts on his mobile in the middle of these beatdowns.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 29, 2008, 10:16:58 am
If all goes as planned,then I will drop the beginnings of my response regarding pre-European slavery tonight.It has come to my attention tha some of the lurkers that we have here at HEF are some of my family and distant family.I would encourage them and any others who stop by to make an account and become a member of the HEF family; this is the best ongoing e-experience I have ever had.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on August 29, 2008, 10:20:19 am
And oh yeah...if someone willbring up the BEST FIGHT thread,I will cme with the specifics regarding the whole Skinhead thing too.Thank you one and all for the well wishes.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on September 03, 2008, 07:22:59 pm
Okay,here we go...


SUPREME ILLUMINATION


Pre-European Slavery in Africa

There are three primary eras of pre-European slavery in Africa...African-African slavery,African-Oriental slavery,and African-White Asian (inclusive of Semitic) slavery.Of the three,African-African (that is Africans enslaved by other Africans) have by faaaaarrr the most erroneous data promulgated by all sides: the slanted "scholarship" of hatemongers,the allegedly "objective" scholarship of European Africanologists and Egyptologists,and some overly zealous Afrocentric scholars whom are basically apologists for African slavery.

Not surprisingly,a combination of the almost entirely erroneous notions of primarily White racists masquerading as scholars combined with the cultural ignorance of genuine White scholars have preempted the field of African-African slavery and promoted the most wild and ridiculous combination of outright lies and shoddy scholarship.At no time and under no circumstance did slavery approach the inhumane excesses perpetrated by both the White Asians and the Europeans.The African concept of slavery--the result of a continent wide indigenous traditional democratic constitution that was the first actual democratic process and ruling methodology recorded in human history-- was diametrically opposed to such notions as literal human chattel and literal dehumanization.The all-important proof of this absolutely staggering fact-- a democratic indigenous and traditional constitution operating continent wide millenia before Greece or even China existed--lies within the comparative analysis of African customary laws within every region of the continent.(Dr.Chancellor Williams,DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,pg.26)

The European miseducation system denies the EXISTENCE of African democracy,much less the PRIMACY of African democracy.The initial purpose of Europe's "African Studies" was really on one hand to prepare subsequent administrators to amplify the efficiency of the rape of Africa,and on the other to assure all persons--especially Africans at home and of the diaspora--that they are worthless,backwards and descendants of not only an unremarkable race but of a race devoid of any distinction of excellence.By the very nature of existence,all persons or things connected to Africa and descendant of Africa are worthless,unrefined,primitive,uncivilized,ignorant,and shameful...and Africa was lifted into civilization and all things good due to government and influence of the benevelant White European.Even slavery was a boon.European African Studies is in no way designed to impart actual truth about Africa or Africans...it is designed to maintain and amplify the rigorousness of the status quo and the denial of the African in his own continent.

This horror is nearly equalled by the overcompensations and outright falsehoods of a very miniscule few but ridiculously shrill idiots whom defile the Afrocentrist name.They claim that either African slavery did NOT exist or that it was so minor as to be nearly negligible.There is no such thing as negligible slavery. African slavery occurred primarily when ethnic groups clashed and the losers were forced into servitude by the victors.Rape,murder,brutalities and the like DID occur under the African during slavery,exactly as Europeans did to one another when their warring tribes conquered their neighbors.The primary distinctions between Africans and not only Europeans but Whites in both Europe AND the Middle East is that African democracy mediated African slavery to an extent.Slavemasters could be and were prosecuted and censured for intolerable excesses.Slaves were emancipated.In general,being worked to death--a traditional practice of Europeans and White Asians regarding Africans--was adamantly opposed by both moral and actual law.These things DID happen,but the fact that the perpetrators were not only reprimanded but  legally punished both permanently separated the practice from European and White Asian slavery as well as provided proof unassailable that African-African brutality and slavery existed.(CHEIKH ANTE DIOP,PRE-COLONIAL BLACK AFRICA).
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on September 03, 2008, 08:25:31 pm

Profound material, Supreme.  May I attempt to expand on your information?


Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on September 03, 2008, 09:12:17 pm
Now we shall have an overview at each of the 3 primary categories of pre-European slavery.


AFRICAN-AFRICAN SLAVERY

This phase of slavery holds the distinction of being both the least generally practiced AND the longest sustained tradition of slavery within Africa.The reason that African-African slavery is the most ancient practice in Africa AND THE WORLD is because Africa has the oldest and most venerable empire in human history.The massive federation of autonomous and semi-autonomous empires that resulted in the mighty over-arching empire of Wose aka Ethiopia also required the assimilation of ethnic groups and clans which are the constituent parts of an empire or kingdom.This assimilation was achieved by both willing federations and military might.In accordance with ancient tradition,the most obstreperous clans who lost in war were forced into slavery.Since Wose=mega empire composed of empires whose dawn seems lost in the mists and shrouds of history,and a part of the consolidation of Wose=slavery,then a part of the history of slavery=African on African slavery that also predated history.And it predated any form of known slavery that the younger (non-African) races practiced.African slavery was distinctly more humane than White Asian and European and even Oriental slavery...but it was still horrible.Yes,dissenting clans were oftentimes expelled from the lands they occupied and allowed to survive in other regions.Yes this practice is infinitely more humane than the treatment Africans received from non-African invaders.But those dissenting surviving clans oftentimes survived while being pursued in full flight,with the hindmost being captured and enslaved by the victors.The Afrocentric scholars who dispute this are not being honest and are refuting one of the most basic concepts of empire building even in Africa.This qualification is vital,because the African culture provides a unique worldview that no other culture or group could hope to echo in its entirety or even half way.In many may ways,the Africa traditional worldview is incredibly patient,forgiving and nonviolent.Many ideas and institutions that are common in other cultures either don't exist in traditional Africa or take on entirely different meanings in traditional Africa.The European and Arabic and other non-Africans who champion these distant and relatively rare occurences of African slavery as being the horrific savagery that made European and Arabic racial slavery the more enlightened and genteel alternative are even more heinous in their duplicity.

AFRICAN-ORIENTAL SLAVERY


This story is so ancient and convoluted that it's quite difficult to summarize.Suffice it to say that the slavery between Africa and the orient was mostly practiced in the area that many millenia later would be called the Middle East and India,that the very first Dynasty of China were indeed African,that the "terra cotta warriors" of China were faithfully rendered African warriors (and both the European "scholarly" establishment AND the nationalistic Chinese whom conspired to tell the world otherwise are entirely aware of their deliberate heinous duplicity) that may of the first samurai were African,that the entire history of martial arts was started in Africa and the greatest and most seminal figure in martial history and oriental history--"Buddha"--is African.To my knowledge,Africa and the Orient never engaged in mutual or unilateral race specific slavery in anything approaching the manner of the White Asians or the Europeans.There seems to be some evidence of slavery being practiced between the two most ancient empires in human history and the two eldest branches of humanity,but it was relatively negligible in volume,extremely ancient and seems to have been ended long before the rise to prominence of any European or White Asian empire (AFRICANS IN EARLY ASIA,DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,Runoko Rashidi,Dr.Ivan van Sertima,John G.Jackson)


WHITE ASIAN-AFRICAN SLAVERY

The Arabs whom oftentimes voice cries of solidarity with Africans and decry European penetration into Africa are merely and literally the cruel pre-European slavers whom the Europeans' own slavery checked and enslaved in the very midst of the Africans whom the Arabs were enslaving and brutalizing prior to the European arrival.There are records  proving this fact beyond even the remotest dispute stretching back to several centuries prior to 3100 B.C. 3100 B.C. is the time of Menes--the African Pharoah who expelled the White Asian government that had taken over 1/4 of the previously all-Black Northern Wose,who reunited all of Wose under her primary and traditional African populace,and whose name the Greeks recorded and imbued with the first importance.For Menes is the creator of the city known in its traditional African tongue as Hikuptah,"the mansion of the soul of Ptah",and which the Greeks named in their tongue...MEMPHIS. Menes is also the Pharoah whom the Greeks named in their tongue "Aigyptos"...and through the corruption of time,"Aigyptos" became EGYPT,and EGYPT became the name of a portion of the land that Menes ruled.

At no time did the majority or even half of the White Arabs have any true brotherhood for Africans.There were the sincere minorities of White Asians who were born in Nowe (Egypt) and whom fought (millenia later) all intruders White,Brown,Black,Asian,or whatever as national Egyptians,but they are the exception that proved the rule.The story of White Asians (Semites) is mostly the story of their relentless aggression against Africans.

The story of the Semites known as the Hyksos circa 1720 B.C.--whom later became known as the Children of Israel according to the historian Josephus--is also the story of invaders whom came to Nowe (Egypt) with the sole purpose of exterminating the native Black populace and replacing them.Failing in that attempt,they settled down to rule Nowe as the 13th and 16th dynasties and stayed on as a powerful influence for 250-400+ years,depending upon the writers whom are cited.Their power was broken and they were expelled en masse during the 18th Dynasty.They retreated to Palestine and formed Jerusalem.Nowe struck back and enslaved both Jerusalem AND Egypt's long time enemy, invader and enslaver: Syria.It should be noted that the greatest Hebrew invasion occured about 600 years before Moses and the Captivity.

What this means,bluntly,is that the ancestors of the Europeans whom have appropriated the names "Hebrew" and "Jew" exclusively for themselves are historical aggressors upon and enemies of traditional Africa.Moses would have never needed to tell Pharoah to let his people go if Moses' people hadn't aggressed upon and tried to exterminate Pharoah's people in the first place.  
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on September 03, 2008, 09:27:49 pm
Yes,wg...expand all you like.i have very deliberately been as concise as I can be,while omitting many of the most explosive and inflamatory facts in favor of brevity.

But let it be understood clearly: the primacy of Western power is very much due to the collapse of African power and the near complete exploitation of her human,land and cash equivalent resources.The very existence of fictional Wakanda threatens the accepted practice of colonial economic exploitation which the West and much of the Arabic world views as their exclusive purview regarding Africa.In fact,Wakanda does MORE than THREATEN...Wakanda's mere EXISTENCE is an iron-clad GUARANTEE that the practice of White xploitation of Black Africa will be abruptly,permanently and absolutely halted.In front of the entire world.Which will inspire the downtrodden people of Africa descent who currently are muzzled and enslaved in the European and Arabic countries worldwide to shake off our mental,social,political,economic and spiritual shackles.Demand REAL equality AND FULL RECOMPENSE for millenia of wrongs suffered at the hands of our White governments.Horrors that continue right now as I write this post AND looong after my bones are dust.A resistance by Blacks and a insistence on justice by Blacks from Whites the world over that will inevitably rise to Civil War in several nations.Wakanda will be called upon to aid her Black brethren,and she may respond.Wakanda has the power to literally fight off the rest of the world,so several countries--no matter WHO those countries are--will be heavily defeated by Wakanda.

In short,Wakanda's very existence is the death knell for the colonial exploitation continuing to this very second that is the foundation of White power AND THE ETERNAL RELENTLESS AMORAL ENEMY to Black Power and true human justice the world over. Wakanda is likewise the swan song for any and all Arabic powers who likewise exploit Africans (which is all of them).

Thus the aggression by the US of A in BP#1,the zealotry of The Arabian Knight,and the position of the US of A in BP Annual #1.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: wgreason on September 04, 2008, 06:30:57 am
never mind, man. you got it. :D

I do have a few questions for clarification, though.

When did the first African democracy originate?

Is "African" a racial category?  How old is it outside of the Roman concept?

Is the split between Arabs and Africans at 3100 bce ideological, cultural, linguistic, or political?

What do you think of Tsehloane Keto's view of historical plausibility?  Maghan Keita gives a brief summary of it here.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fnylq8hkVbYC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=tsehloane+keto+maghan+keita&source=web&ots=7OQfmVeXSg&sig=kvLEvhdP6ySFUAoUcv3JHX0Ysd8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result (http://books.google.com/books?id=fnylq8hkVbYC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=tsehloane+keto+maghan+keita&source=web&ots=7OQfmVeXSg&sig=kvLEvhdP6ySFUAoUcv3JHX0Ysd8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result)

Thanks for whatever time you can offer.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on September 08, 2008, 09:27:04 am
I jus saw this post,and I will return later 2nite or 2morrow to respond to eachof your literate questions,wg.Always a pleasure to "read" from you,lol.
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on October 10, 2008, 09:15:18 am
Wow,I spent alotta time going into chapter and verse answering wgms request the day after my last post on this thread...and only just found out that it didn't post! The evil internet gods got jokes!
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: stanleyballard on October 22, 2008, 08:15:30 am
Supreme Illuminati has a lot of historical information - have read some of the material you commented on earlier (the books).  What happend with the fight on the West Coast (Skinheads)?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on October 22, 2008, 09:36:56 am
Yeah,all the specifics from that dust up are resolved now.I'm trying to post the specifics on the YOUR BEST FIGHT thread,but my friggin cellie won't let me pull it up.Can u do that for me,SB?
Title: Re: BP Annual #1: Portrayal of America in "Black to the Future"
Post by: supreme illuminati on October 22, 2008, 04:23:24 pm
Supreme Illuminati has a lot of historical information - have read some of the material you commented on earlier (the books).  What happend with the fight on the West Coast (Skinheads)?

yeah I pulled it up in YOUR BEST FIGHT in the GENERAL DISCUSSION section.Enjoy.