Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Panther Politics => Topic started by: superdave on September 18, 2006, 10:58:49 am

Title: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: superdave on September 18, 2006, 10:58:49 am
I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I remember when I was younger, I bought a Spidey with Black Panther in it. My mom saw it and said he was a horrible stereotype, and Marvel was racist for having such a character. Now I know Hudlin, and I think Priest before him, have tried very hard to show that BP is not just a stereotype, but a strong black role model.

So the question is, when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby originally created BP were they just reinforcing racial stereotypes, or were they trying to bring down racial barriers by making a strong black character? Could it be both? Can someone be good intentioned, and yet still racist? And if that's the case, is it okay?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Rockscissorspaper on September 18, 2006, 01:21:42 pm
What is his stereotype supposed to be? Luke Cage and Falcon were definitely stereotypical but Panther? I don't see it...
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on September 18, 2006, 02:24:32 pm
I have no idea how BP could be percieved as racist.  You have to explain why you and your mom saw him that way.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: superdave on September 18, 2006, 02:42:47 pm
Honestly, I think she just didn't like that he had 'black' in the name. She didn't actually read the comic, just happened to glance through it. It was something like 10-12 years ago so I'm hazy on the details.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: HappyPants Panther on September 18, 2006, 03:57:50 pm
Honestly, I think she just didn't like that he had 'black' in the name. She didn't actually read the comic, just happened to glance through it. It was something like 10-12 years ago so I'm hazy on the details.

Yeah, your mom is funny that way. I tell her that all the time. Just last night I was telling her she's prejudgemental, but you know your mom...she wasn't trying to hear it. But not wanting to go to bed with anything bothering her on her mind she conceeded so we could get to more...enjoyable activities. ;)
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Pantherfan on September 18, 2006, 03:59:08 pm
Look at it this way. Compared to how black characters in comics were pre-Black Panther, Jack and Stan's contribution was definitely an improvement. I read on a website that Marvel's first black character was Whitewash Jones and he appeared in the pages of Young Allies. This was back when Marvel was known as Timely Comics.

Myself, I would take Black Panther over a black caricature named Whitewash Jones.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: HappyPants Panther on September 18, 2006, 04:01:07 pm
Whitewash Jones.

LMAO! What a name...you can tell the creators weren't even trying with that one.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on September 18, 2006, 04:33:57 pm
Honestly, I think she just didn't like that he had 'black' in the name. She didn't actually read the comic, just happened to glance through it. It was something like 10-12 years ago so I'm hazy on the details.

Yeah, your mom is funny that way. I tell her that all the time. Just last night I was telling her she's prejudgemental, but you know your mom...she wasn't trying to hear it. But not wanting to go to bed with anything bothering her on her mind she conceeded so we could get to more...enjoyable activities. ;)

HHP has jokes!  Who knew?
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Ed on September 18, 2006, 09:48:50 pm
What ever happened with Whitewash Jones. Maybe they will re-introduce during Civil War.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Gooch on September 19, 2006, 05:19:50 am
white wash jones was a sambo type charecer, big lips and in black face,  if marvel reintroduces that charecter, they will get to see the nigger in me >:(
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: bluezulu on September 19, 2006, 06:16:21 am
but some have the opinion that we have had a pseudo reverse white whash jones in the form of ross. it was pure genius on his part but tell me the diffence in the need for white wash jones and ross. if you are scared say you are scared but the truth remains that ross served a a bizaroo world like black/white face character so that white readers could have someone they relate to in the pages of black panther. amazing work by priest because to this day his biggest fans of the book put the character of ross in the top 3 reasons why they loved the book.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Thatguy on September 19, 2006, 07:43:12 am
Quote
but some have the opinion that we have had a pseudo reverse white whash jones in the form of ross. it was pure genius on his part but tell me the diffence in the need for white wash jones and ross. if you are scared say you are scared but the truth remains that ross served a a bizaroo world like black/white face character so that white readers could have someone they relate to in the pages of black panther. amazing work by priest because to this day his biggest fans of the book put the character of ross in the top 3 reasons why they loved the book.

And just how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Ross wasn't some cleverly hidden stereotype. He represented the disbelieving the disbelieving reader who didn't take Panther seriously. Priest knew alot of people would have a hard time taking Panther seriously because for the longest time, he was a second stringer who always needed the help of whatever character he was guest starring with, from Iron Man to DD. Rather than bury his head in the sand, Priest met that challenge head on. It's was Hudlin by way of recon who 'white washed' T'Challa's history, not Priest.

Ross was simply a man out of his element, and Priest used that for comedy. What's more, it allowed T'Challa to be a mysterious bad ass because we the reader didn't see inside his head, but Ross'. When Ross was surprised, generally so were we. Opinion varies yes, but I feel it allowed for better story telling, not just straight up fights.

Finally, Priest actually was very respectful of Ross' character when Ross was in his state department element. When the Senate tried to remove Panther from America, Ross made an impassioned plea, defending Panther's character and in the same issue verbally bitch slapping Captain America. In the same arc he stood on equal footing with Magneto, Namor, Dr. Doom (hologram anyways) and Warlord Kro, discussing the sinking of an American ship. In earlier issues he broke down the international business implications of Panther nationalizing all business in Wakanda with ease. So...where is the disrespect, exactly?
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: CIENCIANO on September 19, 2006, 07:54:28 am
I remember when I was younger, I bought a Spidey with Black Panther in it. My mom saw it and said he was a horrible stereotype, and Marvel was racist for having such a character.
and with ''such a character'' me must understand a ''black character??
i mean, your mother saw a black character in the cover of a comic book and she thought that the comic book was being racist??
i don't get the point.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: bluezulu on September 19, 2006, 10:08:50 am
on the old vaudville circuits white performers in black face was used a lot for a lot of those same reasons. :D in fact a lot of black actors would wear black face for the same effect. the racial disrespectful overtones was not the intent of priest, however it was a racial reason behind his use. he created ross so ofcourse he "loved" the character, however having a "sidekick" type character to appeal to the masses is no diffrent then having a sambo character in the book for comic relief to make the white audience feel all warm fuzzy and comfortable inside.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Thatguy on September 19, 2006, 10:18:33 am
We'll have to agree to disagree here, Blue. Side kicks serve an important function of allowing the reader someone to relate to when they can't do so with the main character. Batman's angst is hard to get through, so they have Robin. Tarzan barely has thought processes, so he has Jane and some adopted kid who's name I forget, and so on and so forth. Priest might have taken race into account when he decided to use Ross (who actually appeared in Ka-zar first) instead of making someone new, but he did so to challenge perceptions of Panther by fanboys (who are majority white). What's so bad about that?
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: bluezulu on September 19, 2006, 11:04:46 am
We'll have to agree to disagree here, Blue. Side kicks serve an important function of allowing the reader someone to relate to when they can't do so with the main character. Batman's angst is hard to get through, so they have Robin. Tarzan barely has thought processes, so he has Jane and some adopted kid who's name I forget, and so on and so forth. Priest might have taken race into account when he decided to use Ross (who actually appeared in Ka-zar first) instead of making someone new, but he did so to challenge perceptions of Panther by fanboys (who are majority white). What's so bad about that?
----------------------------------
absolutly nothing. :) everything is not meant to be seen as good or bad. priest is a genius and his use of ross was very creative for a lot of reasons, including the ones you listed above. so when you see reg's no holds barred no excuse making version of tchalla as the "baddest"black man, there are reasons for it considering the last series. the last series with it's subtlies (sp) and metaphors and plot twist was criticaly aclaimed but the fanboys did not but it. ok they are not buying it in masses now but imo this book is not pandering or catering to them. (note the fact that you don't like it  ;) ) im sorry this run was not written for you in mind. as a fan of the character you can look forward to him in marvel adventures and avengers united, however in this series you are not getting your old pantehr.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: JRCarter on January 16, 2007, 06:42:27 pm
white wash jones was a sambo type charecer, big lips and in black face,  if marvel reintroduces that charecter, they will get to see the nigger in me >:(

They could always do like DC did with Chop-Chop from Blackhawk and say that the sambo-type depiction was part of a comic-book-within-a-comic-book.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 16, 2007, 07:27:56 pm
Quote
but some have the opinion that we have had a pseudo reverse white whash jones in the form of ross. it was pure genius on his part but tell me the diffence in the need for white wash jones and ross. if you are scared say you are scared but the truth remains that ross served a a bizaroo world like black/white face character so that white readers could have someone they relate to in the pages of black panther. amazing work by priest because to this day his biggest fans of the book put the character of ross in the top 3 reasons why they loved the book.

And just how exactly did you come to this conclusion?

Ross wasn't some cleverly hidden stereotype. He represented the disbelieving the disbelieving reader who didn't take Panther seriously. Priest knew alot of people would have a hard time taking Panther seriously because for the longest time, he was a second stringer who always needed the help of whatever character he was guest starring with, from Iron Man to DD. Rather than bury his head in the sand, Priest met that challenge head on. It's was Hudlin by way of recon who 'white washed' T'Challa's history, not Priest.

Ross was simply a man out of his element, and Priest used that for comedy. What's more, it allowed T'Challa to be a mysterious bad ass because we the reader didn't see inside his head, but Ross'. When Ross was surprised, generally so were we. Opinion varies yes, but I feel it allowed for better story telling, not just straight up fights.

Finally, Priest actually was very respectful of Ross' character when Ross was in his state department element. When the Senate tried to remove Panther from America, Ross made an impassioned plea, defending Panther's character and in the same issue verbally bitch slapping Captain America. In the same arc he stood on equal footing with Magneto, Namor, Dr. Doom (hologram anyways) and Warlord Kro, discussing the sinking of an American ship. In earlier issues he broke down the international business implications of Panther nationalizing all business in Wakanda with ease. So...where is the disrespect, exactly?

I was respectfully reading you opinion on this matter and was completely content until I saw the negative plug at Hudlin....again.

Damn, can you get into a conversation at least once without having to throw a negative comment at Hudlin? You have let everybody who will listen, here and at other Internet boards, know what you think about the history of Hudlin's BP and Hudlin's writing. I respect your opinion but let's stick to the debate and keep that particular point out, please.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 16, 2007, 07:57:40 pm
If I hear ANOTHER Everett K. Ross lament as a smoke screen to diss RH BP,I swear...


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

Look,I make no bones about the fact that I LOVED PRIEST'S RUN and on top of that I LOVED PRIEST'S ROSS.No doubt.I loved PRIEST'S interpretation of BP as well.I have gone into depth and detail about it any number of times prior to this,so I won't do so again.

But I love RH BP as well,and nobody but RH could've put BP where he currently IS. The change in the status of the character due to RH penning him,and the unrelenting badassity of His Royal Pantherness in every regard is nothing new. Let me recall to your mind once again,all RH BP haters...MOST OF YOU HATED PRIEST BP TOO,THAT'S WHY IT GOT CANCELLED.Much of the SAME OUTRAGE that most of you are heaping upon RH? YOU HEAPED IT ON PRIEST,TOO.On his own website,PRIEST speaks about this very negative reaction by the boards to BP being treated like the King and genius and tech innovator and warrior that he was originally meant to be and which he demonstrated at his inception and during several arcs of THE AVENGERS in the...was it  the 80s?...and with D-MAC (that's DWAYNE MCDUFFIE for all you foolish mortals out there).All prior to PRIEST getting his hands on him.

The only thing that RH did with BP was make him EVEN DOPER STILL.If you LIKE THE CHARACTER,YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS.Any argument to the contrary is purely moronic.You don't like RH's writing style? Alright.YOU SHOULD STILL BE HAPPY THAT BP IS NOW A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE MU,IN CIVIL WAR,AND WILL BE IN WORLDWIDE HULK.Even with so brilliant a scribe as D-MAC and PRIEST are,they didn't come CLOSE to this kind of exposure and respect FROM ALL QUARTERS OF THE MU that RH HAS GOTTEN FOR BP.I just read the WHOLE of RH BP and almost all of PRIEST BP...as I own almost the entire run of both.Both are MAGNIFICENT writers...and both have RADICALLY DIFFERENT STYLES.My manz PRIEST has a more prose-oriented,more lyrical,more convoluted style.More multilayered.He has sharp wit and humor and ironic twists that he utilizes more frequently than does RH.RH doesn't LACK these elements,he just doesn't use them THE SAME WAY that PRIEST DOES because THEIR STYLES are different.But make no mistake...BOTH ARE QUALITY WRITERS.RH is more straight up hardcore than PRIEST's writing tends to be.RH BP is regal,but he's quick to beatcha down,too.RH BP is MORE ACCESSIBLE than PRIEST BP...therefore the role that ROSS played in PRIEST'S interpretation of BP is null and void here vis-a-vis RH BP.You know what ROSS does much more of now? HE LETS US SEE HOW THE GOVERNMENT WORKS WHEN THE MEDIA ISN'T SNOOPING AROUND AND REPORTING THEIR PRIVATE AND NON-P.C. CONVERSATIONS.Those who don't think that the General was a realistic depiction ought to hear the kind of talk that permeates the armed services bases.I lived in San Diego (a military town) and reside in LONG BEACH ( a military town until recently) and I can assure you that I have heard many an office and NCO use racist labels for their race and other races so frequently that nobody even twitches at it anymore.You remember that phrase..."CURSES LIKE A SAILOR"? Are many of you so naive as to think that such a common adage has no bearing on the reality of life in the armed forces? If so,please utilize your cranium for something more than nodding to the preposterous crapola of other people,and cogitate...reflect...consider...ponder on your own and FOR YOURSELF for a moment.

It is ENTIRELY plausible for BP to defeat CAPTAIN AMERICA.The premier representatives of combat athletes on this planet have FOR DECADES been Black.No doubts were raised as to whom the baddest man on the planet was,and frankly he hasn't been white since before John L. Sullivan.And throw ROCKY MARCIANO outta here before we even START that argument...any Black heavyweight champ who was in his prime from Joe Lewis to Floyd Patterson would utterly destroy ROCKY,and that's why he WOULD NOT FIGHT ANY BLACK CHAMP IN HIS PRIME.Kickboxing? Hoost and Bonjasky...and Hoost in particular would crush anyone in his prime.Including the current 7 footer and champ Semmy Schilt (who is European). Between Hoost and Bonjasky,the K-1 has been dominated for more years by a Black champ than at a comparable time by ANYBODY OTHER PAIR COMBINED.As soon as MMA starts producing million dollar paychecks regularly,bruthas will run that too.You're already seeing the signs.George St.Pierre,Anderson Silva,Vanderlei Silva,Rampage Jackson,and Yves Edwards when his head is on straight.

What I'm saying here is that the premier representatives in single combat have generally been Black since the time we were allowed to genuinely compete.It makes sense that THE PREMIER BLACK MAN would hold a similar edge over his premier Caucasian counterpart.Don't start with cries of racism...because if that's true then it's racist to claim that MICHAEL JORDAN is greater than anybody else...including every White player whom has ever played the game.It would be racist to claim that the premier sprinters in sprinting history are Blacks...and I recall to your mind that Whites ARE represented proportionately in these events,UNLIKE the other events that Whites dominate WHERE BLACKS ARE NOT EQUALLY REPRESENTED BECAUSE WE'RE NOT THAT INTERESTED IN THOSE SPORTS...YET.

Except...when Black people dominate a sport? It's because of our TREMENDOUS NATURAL TALENT.When White people dominate a sport? It's because of their tremendous will,focus,intellect,savvyness and the like...if you believe the sports pundits.Even when playing the same game at the same time and working in tandem.Whom say these things on national TV and don't realize they're being racist.Offensively so.Because Joe Montana was extra savvy and brilliant and focused and possessed uncommon will and savvyness.And Jerry Rice...his favorite receiver and probably the greatest to ever play the game...was merely superbly gifted physically,but less endowed with the finer and more sublte aspects of character that indicates true greatness that withstands the tests of time rather than physcial gifts that fade as time inexorably marches on.Despite the fact that Jerry Rice in particular embodies the absolute falseness of this belief.

And Captain America can lose to anyone from Primus to Crossbones...except...when facing the premier example of the premier athletes and hand to hand combatants on the Earth? He MUST win...he cannot possibly lose.I remember the uproar when PREIST had TCHAKA merely TIE with CAPTAIN AMERICA...and had a whole ambush set to wipe out CAP and all the soldiers with him should CAP have done something out of line.Ohhhhh...do I remember the uproar and pisstivity of most people in my LCS.And when RH BP actually BEAT CAP DOWN and CARRIED HIM OFF? That set off so many people that one of the most rabid CAP fans started a physical altercation with me.No joke.And the ironic thing is...after BP,CAP is my favorite guy.


So shut it up about ROSS.RH is not PRIEST,so deal with it.Don't like it? DON'T BUY IT. But if you're a BLACK PANTHER fan,as opposed to a FAN OF A WRITER...then AT LEAST CREDIT RH for doing WHAT NOBODY ELSE COULD HAVE DONE:

He made BP and A-LIST PLAYER RECOGNIZED THROUGHOUT THE MU.

If you hate on that,you're not a BP fan anyway,and nothing will satisfy you no matter what unless it includes the denigration and/or cancellation of the character.Period.

Endeth illumination.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 16, 2007, 07:59:57 pm
And hell no they weren't being racist with BP...maybe not as well informed,definitely not authentic in regards to an actual "BLACK VOICE"...but MARVEL was being neither degrading nor racist IMO.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: voodoochild on January 16, 2007, 11:54:42 pm
Ross wasn't a reverse stereotype.  Ross was a device Priest used (unsuccessfully) to pander to white fans.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Mastrmynd on January 17, 2007, 12:25:30 pm
yeah, Ross was a plot device ... a funny plot device, but a plot device nonetheless.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 17, 2007, 12:36:13 pm
If I hear ANOTHER Everett K. Ross lament as a smoke screen to diss RH BP,I swear...


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

Look,I make no bones about the fact that I LOVED PRIEST'S RUN and on top of that I LOVED PRIEST'S ROSS.No doubt.I loved PRIEST'S interpretation of BP as well.I have gone into depth and detail about it any number of times prior to this,so I won't do so again.

But I love RH BP as well,and nobody but RH could've put BP where he currently IS. The change in the status of the character due to RH penning him,and the unrelenting badassity of His Royal Pantherness in every regard is nothing new. Let me recall to your mind once again,all RH BP haters...MOST OF YOU HATED PRIEST BP TOO,THAT'S WHY IT GOT CANCELLED.Much of the SAME OUTRAGE that most of you are heaping upon RH? YOU HEAPED IT ON PRIEST,TOO.On his own website,PRIEST speaks about this very negative reaction by the boards to BP being treated like the King and genius and tech innovator and warrior that he was originally meant to be and which he demonstrated at his inception and during several arcs of THE AVENGERS in the...was it  the 80s?...and with D-MAC (that's DWAYNE MCDUFFIE for all you foolish mortals out there).All prior to PRIEST getting his hands on him.

The only thing that RH did with BP was make him EVEN DOPER STILL.If you LIKE THE CHARACTER,YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS.Any argument to the contrary is purely moronic.You don't like RH's writing style? Alright.YOU SHOULD STILL BE HAPPY THAT BP IS NOW A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE MU,IN CIVIL WAR,AND WILL BE IN WORLDWIDE HULK.Even with so brilliant a scribe as D-MAC and PRIEST are,they didn't come CLOSE to this kind of exposure and respect FROM ALL QUARTERS OF THE MU that RH HAS GOTTEN FOR BP.I just read the WHOLE of RH BP and almost all of PRIEST BP...as I own almost the entire run of both.Both are MAGNIFICENT writers...and both have RADICALLY DIFFERENT STYLES.My manz PRIEST has a more prose-oriented,more lyrical,more convoluted style.More multilayered.He has sharp wit and humor and ironic twists that he utilizes more frequently than does RH.RH doesn't LACK these elements,he just doesn't use them THE SAME WAY that PRIEST DOES because THEIR STYLES are different.But make no mistake...BOTH ARE QUALITY WRITERS.RH is more straight up hardcore than PRIEST's writing tends to be.RH BP is regal,but he's quick to beatcha down,too.RH BP is MORE ACCESSIBLE than PRIEST BP...therefore the role that ROSS played in PRIEST'S interpretation of BP is null and void here vis-a-vis RH BP.You know what ROSS does much more of now? HE LETS US SEE HOW THE GOVERNMENT WORKS WHEN THE MEDIA ISN'T SNOOPING AROUND AND REPORTING THEIR PRIVATE AND NON-P.C. CONVERSATIONS.Those who don't think that the General was a realistic depiction ought to hear the kind of talk that permeates the armed services bases.I lived in San Diego (a military town) and reside in LONG BEACH ( a military town until recently) and I can assure you that I have heard many an office and NCO use racist labels for their race and other races so frequently that nobody even twitches at it anymore.You remember that phrase..."CURSES LIKE A SAILOR"? Are many of you so naive as to think that such a common adage has no bearing on the reality of life in the armed forces? If so,please utilize your cranium for something more than nodding to the preposterous crapola of other people,and cogitate...reflect...consider...ponder on your own and FOR YOURSELF for a moment.

It is ENTIRELY plausible for BP to defeat CAPTAIN AMERICA.The premier representatives of combat athletes on this planet have FOR DECADES been Black.No doubts were raised as to whom the baddest man on the planet was,and frankly he hasn't been white since before John L. Sullivan.And throw ROCKY MARCIANO outta here before we even START that argument...any Black heavyweight champ who was in his prime from Joe Lewis to Floyd Patterson would utterly destroy ROCKY,and that's why he WOULD NOT FIGHT ANY BLACK CHAMP IN HIS PRIME.Kickboxing? Hoost and Bonjasky...and Hoost in particular would crush anyone in his prime.Including the current 7 footer and champ Semmy Schilt (who is European). Between Hoost and Bonjasky,the K-1 has been dominated for more years by a Black champ than at a comparable time by ANYBODY OTHER PAIR COMBINED.As soon as MMA starts producing million dollar paychecks regularly,bruthas will run that too.You're already seeing the signs.George St.Pierre,Anderson Silva,Vanderlei Silva,Rampage Jackson,and Yves Edwards when his head is on straight.

What I'm saying here is that the premier representatives in single combat have generally been Black since the time we were allowed to genuinely compete.It makes sense that THE PREMIER BLACK MAN would hold a similar edge over his premier Caucasian counterpart.Don't start with cries of racism...because if that's true then it's racist to claim that MICHAEL JORDAN is greater than anybody else...including every White player whom has ever played the game.It would be racist to claim that the premier sprinters in sprinting history are Blacks...and I recall to your mind that Whites ARE represented proportionately in these events,UNLIKE the other events that Whites dominate WHERE BLACKS ARE NOT EQUALLY REPRESENTED BECAUSE WE'RE NOT THAT INTERESTED IN THOSE SPORTS...YET.

Except...when Black people dominate a sport? It's because of our TREMENDOUS NATURAL TALENT.When White people dominate a sport? It's because of their tremendous will,focus,intellect,savvyness and the like...if you believe the sports pundits.Even when playing the same game at the same time and working in tandem.Whom say these things on national TV and don't realize they're being racist.Offensively so.Because Joe Montana was extra savvy and brilliant and focused and possessed uncommon will and savvyness.And Jerry Rice...his favorite receiver and probably the greatest to ever play the game...was merely superbly gifted physically,but less endowed with the finer and more sublte aspects of character that indicates true greatness that withstands the tests of time rather than physcial gifts that fade as time inexorably marches on.Despite the fact that Jerry Rice in particular embodies the absolute falseness of this belief.

And Captain America can lose to anyone from Primus to Crossbones...except...when facing the premier example of the premier athletes and hand to hand combatants on the Earth? He MUST win...he cannot possibly lose.I remember the uproar when PREIST had TCHAKA merely TIE with CAPTAIN AMERICA...and had a whole ambush set to wipe out CAP and all the soldiers with him should CAP have done something out of line.Ohhhhh...do I remember the uproar and pisstivity of most people in my LCS.And when RH BP actually BEAT CAP DOWN and CARRIED HIM OFF? That set off so many people that one of the most rabid CAP fans started a physical altercation with me.No joke.And the ironic thing is...after BP,CAP is my favorite guy.


So shut it up about ROSS.RH is not PRIEST,so deal with it.Don't like it? DON'T BUY IT. But if you're a BLACK PANTHER fan,as opposed to a FAN OF A WRITER...then AT LEAST CREDIT RH for doing WHAT NOBODY ELSE COULD HAVE DONE:

He made BP and A-LIST PLAYER RECOGNIZED THROUGHOUT THE MU.

If you hate on that,you're not a BP fan anyway,and nothing will satisfy you no matter what unless it includes the denigration and/or cancellation of the character.Period.

Endeth illumination.

And with that the, haters and trolls feel a rolling in their guts and convulse in fits of pain as they realize they are hit with a supreme illness that they still cannot fathom  yet can't logically  deny.

Each one, teach one brother. Lay those trolls out.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 17, 2007, 01:08:11 pm
yeah, Ross was a plot device ... a funny plot device, but a plot device nonetheless.

Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story. What is also interesting is how when Priest's takes over the character of Steel he makes him weaker than he was ever written by other writers (including white writers) and the one romantic interest starts playing Steel for the real antagonist of the story. Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE. Talk about a rushed romance. Forget about the uproar T'Challa and Storm's union caused.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe? Again, this reminds me of reading Priests vision of what he was going to do to BP if the series hadn't gotten canceled while he was writing it. He was going to make T'Challa into a world class villain like Doom, allow Storm to marry T'Challa but divorce him and hook Ross up with Monica. I see a pattern here. Priest really wants to get the "larger demographic" to relate to his stories, which I understand. But does he have to lead these characters and their supporting cast down these dark roads when there are barely any black heroes of worth in comics as it is? All in the name of Drama? Pu-leez!! It's bad enough he didn't want to write BP when he was first given the assignment in the first place.

With all this said, I AM a fan of his run of BP though if he had been allowed to write in the changes he wanted I would have eventually dropped the book eventually. Thank God, Reggie took over. I don't care what the haters say. T'Challa would eventually have sucked.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Vic Vega on January 19, 2007, 07:55:11 am
yeah, Ross was a plot device ... a funny plot device, but a plot device nonetheless.

Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story. What is also interesting is how when Priest's takes over the character of Steel he makes him weaker than he was ever written by other writers (including white writers) and the one romantic interest starts playing Steel for the real antagonist of the story. Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE. Talk about a rushed romance. Forget about the uproar T'Challa and Storm's union caused.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe? Again, this reminds me of reading Priests vision of what he was going to do to BP if the series hadn't gotten canceled while he was writing it. He was going to make T'Challa into a world class villain like Doom, allow Storm to marry T'Challa but divorce him and hook Ross up with Monica. I see a pattern here. Priest really wants to get the "larger demographic" to relate to his stories, which I understand. But does he have to lead these characters and their supporting cast down these dark roads when there are barely any black heroes of worth in comics as it is? All in the name of Drama? Pu-leez!! It's bad enough he didn't want to write BP when he was first given the assignment in the first place.

With all this said, I AM a fan of his run of BP though if he had been allowed to write in the changes he wanted I would have eventually dropped the book eventually. Thank God, Reggie took over. I don't care what the haters say. T'Challa would eventually have sucked.

Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.

Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.  On the other hand, along with Denis Cowan that was the first time Steel had an all-black artist writer team.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 19, 2007, 11:18:11 am
[Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.
Yeah, I remember that. That was f@#%ed up too. Even the characters were drawn "uglier" than what was seen before in the series. All of a sudden the Natasha mother gained 300 lbs. Her brother walked around with no shirt and pants hanging off his butt and he always had a 40 in his hand. The grandfather was senile all of sudden. Added to that, they didn't nor cared to talk to Steel and apparently he felt the same. What happen to his guilt for exposing his identity and getting them all in danger. He was originally portrayed to really love his family. When Priest got it, Steel acted like he could have cared less. In fact, most times he didn't pay attention to Natasha. In fact, Natasha herself changed and started acting like some ignorant black round the way girl who insulted everyone she came into contact with. It appeared to me she was now acting like the negative stereotype of an angry black woman. who rolls her eyes and cusses out anyone for anything she doesn't like. Maybe Priest was portraying her as acting out to get Steel's attention. IF that's the case, I didn't think it was that obvious.

Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.  On the other hand, along with Denis Cowan that was the first time Steel had an all-black artist writer team.

Yeah this was one of the positive factors of that run.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Jenn on January 19, 2007, 07:55:41 pm
I would argue that the debut of Storm - the blue eyed, long-haired African with no concept of clothing, for crying out loud - was more racist than BP could ever be.

In fact, Natasha herself changed and started acting like some ignorant black round the way girl who insulted everyone she came into contact with. It appeared to me she was now acting like the negative stereotype of an angry black woman. who rolls her eyes and cusses out anyone for anything she doesn't like.

God, that's why I'm going to weep buckets the day Hudlin leaves this title. I just FEEL Sassy Negress Storm is going to make an appearance between now and the day I die.

Ev - the siggy, LOVE IT!!! "Mr. Han? Suddenly, I'd like to leave your island..."
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Yaw on January 20, 2007, 07:53:10 pm
yeah, Ross was a plot device ... a funny plot device, but a plot device nonetheless.

Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story. What is also interesting is how when Priest's takes over the character of Steel he makes him weaker than he was ever written by other writers (including white writers) and the one romantic interest starts playing Steel for the real antagonist of the story. Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE. Talk about a rushed romance. Forget about the uproar T'Challa and Storm's union caused.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe? Again, this reminds me of reading Priests vision of what he was going to do to BP if the series hadn't gotten canceled while he was writing it. He was going to make T'Challa into a world class villain like Doom, allow Storm to marry T'Challa but divorce him and hook Ross up with Monica. I see a pattern here. Priest really wants to get the "larger demographic" to relate to his stories, which I understand. But does he have to lead these characters and their supporting cast down these dark roads when there are barely any black heroes of worth in comics as it is? All in the name of Drama? Pu-leez!! It's bad enough he didn't want to write BP when he was first given the assignment in the first place.

With all this said, I AM a fan of his run of BP though if he had been allowed to write in the changes he wanted I would have eventually dropped the book eventually. Thank God, Reggie took over. I don't care what the haters say. T'Challa would eventually have sucked.

people want to worship the ground the Priest walks on (especially white folks only when compared to other Black writers) but the more I read his stuff (essays, opinions and comics) the more I don't like his views on alot of things.  His comics commonly had that deluding "white" element in his stories that just seem to scream "CROSSOVER!!"

Xero
Quantum and Woody
Falcon and Sgt Tork
etc.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 21, 2007, 12:52:59 am
yeah, Ross was a plot device ... a funny plot device, but a plot device nonetheless.

Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story. What is also interesting is how when Priest's takes over the character of Steel he makes him weaker than he was ever written by other writers (including white writers) and the one romantic interest starts playing Steel for the real antagonist of the story. Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE. Talk about a rushed romance. Forget about the uproar T'Challa and Storm's union caused.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe? Again, this reminds me of reading Priests vision of what he was going to do to BP if the series hadn't gotten canceled while he was writing it. He was going to make T'Challa into a world class villain like Doom, allow Storm to marry T'Challa but divorce him and hook Ross up with Monica. I see a pattern here. Priest really wants to get the "larger demographic" to relate to his stories, which I understand. But does he have to lead these characters and their supporting cast down these dark roads when there are barely any black heroes of worth in comics as it is? All in the name of Drama? Pu-leez!! It's bad enough he didn't want to write BP when he was first given the assignment in the first place.

With all this said, I AM a fan of his run of BP though if he had been allowed to write in the changes he wanted I would have eventually dropped the book eventually. Thank God, Reggie took over. I don't care what the haters say. T'Challa would eventually have sucked.

people want to worship the ground the Priest walks on (especially white folks only when compared to other Black writers) but the more I read his stuff (essays, opinions and comics) the more I don't like his views on alot of things.  His comics commonly had that deluding "white" element in his stories that just seem to scream "CROSSOVER!!"

Xero
Quantum and Woody
Falcon and Sgt Tork
etc.

You know one thing I always thought was kind of funny about Priest was that he always wanted to be known as a good comic book writer instead of a good black comic book writer. Yet, he kept bringing up how he was wronged in that the comic book industry would not recognize him as the first black comic book editor. This reminds me of how African American actors and comedians (i.e. Bernie Mack, Nia Long, etc.) will say similar statements of how they want to be recognized for just being entertainers, not black entertainers. Yet they will be happy to get those BET awards and NAACP recognition.

BTW, I do dig some Preist's work (Black Panther, of course) but I have to point out somethings I don't particularly like that he has done.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Marvelous on January 21, 2007, 01:52:48 am
No.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: voodoochild on January 21, 2007, 03:27:57 pm
You know one thing I always thought was kind of funny about Priest was that he always wanted to be known as a good comic book writer instead of a good black comic book writer. Yet, he kept bringing up how he was wronged in that the comic book industry would not recognize him as the first black comic book editor. This reminds me of how African American actors and comedians (i.e. Bernie Mack, Nia Long, etc.) will say similar statements of how they want to be recognized for just being entertainers, not black entertainers. Yet they will be happy to get those BET awards and NAACP recognition.

BTW, I do dig some Preist's work (Black Panther, of course) but I have to point out somethings I don't particularly like that he has done.

I hate it when Black people pull out that "I dont want to be known as a Black...".  As if transcending race is the ultimate goal, or the holy grail.  Being successful.  Nope.  Not good enough.  I want to rise above the hindrance of color.  As if.  There has never been a Black person in the history of this country that has transcended race.   Priest and 'nem need to get off that sh*t and just do what they do.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 21, 2007, 04:11:37 pm
You know one thing I always thought was kind of funny about Priest was that he always wanted to be known as a good comic book writer instead of a good black comic book writer. Yet, he kept bringing up how he was wronged in that the comic book industry would not recognize him as the first black comic book editor. This reminds me of how African American actors and comedians (i.e. Bernie Mack, Nia Long, etc.) will say similar statements of how they want to be recognized for just being entertainers, not black entertainers. Yet they will be happy to get those BET awards and NAACP recognition.

BTW, I do dig some Preist's work (Black Panther, of course) but I have to point out somethings I don't particularly like that he has done.

I hate it when Black people pull out that "I dont want to be known as a Black...".  As if transcending race is the ultimate goal, or the holy grail.  Being successful.  Nope.  Not good enough.  I want to rise above the hindrance of color.  As if.  There has never been a Black person in the history of this country that has transcended race.   Priest and 'nem need to get off that sh*t and just do what they do.

I agree. But I kind of see what they a probably trying to do. Priest is considered a black comic book writer (whether he wants to transcend color or not) so he probably believes that if he is considered just  a comic book writer, then any title he writes for won't be considered a "black" book. Same goes for other black entertainers. I think they feel that if the word "black" isn't considered in their professional description then it allows them to crossover to the "larger demographic" popularity. I'm not sure if this is true or not considering Samuel Jackson, Janet Jackson, Oprah and others.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Loren on January 21, 2007, 06:04:07 pm
Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story.


You've got your timeline backwards.  Priest started writing Steel two years before his BP series began.  In fact, Steel was cancelled before BP #1 hit stands.  So it's impossible for Boris to have been a Ross pastiche.

Quote
Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE.


You mean this scene:

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9430/steel345wm.jpg)

There are no suitors, there are no brothas, she doesn't jump on him, and unless you count Boris saying "So I thought we'd go out sometime" while they're eating ice cream a few pages later, they don't romantically hook up.

Quote
Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe?


He also moved him to a better home, gave him a much better job, started calling him "Dr. Irons," and put the 'S' back on his chest.  And as for making him "weaker," no one put Steel on *any* DCU teams before Priest, but afterwards he joined the JLA.  Granted, it was after the series was cancelled, but Priest wrote the story that had him join.

Quote from: Vic Vega
Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.


Well, there's the stuff Evasive described from Priest's Christmas issue, but Louise Simonson had already put the family through the wringer.  Jemahl was in a street gang at the beginning, Tyke was paralyzed and later betrayed the family, and the grandmother was killed by Dr. Polaris.  And then Simonson put the whole family into Witness Protection, removing them all from the series.

Quote
Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.


Priest took over with #34.  And while sales didn't improve, the series was already one of DC's lowest sellers before he came onboard, neck-in-neck with Aztek and Takion (both of which were cancelled very soon thereafter).
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 21, 2007, 08:05:28 pm
Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story.


You've got your timeline backwards.  Priest started writing Steel two years before his BP series began.  In fact, Steel was canceled before BP #1 hit stands.  So it's impossible for Boris to have been a Ross pastiche.


Okay, if that's the case, the it's Ross  who is a continuing play on the Boris character albeit more animated and some changes to the characters identity. I had believed it was Steel who came after, after reading some of Priest's notes. However, whether Steel came first or not, the point I am trying to make is to show a pattern involving Priest writing style.

Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE.


You mean this scene:

([url]http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9430/steel345wm.jpg[/url])

There are no suitors, there are no brothas, she doesn't jump on him, and unless you count Boris saying "So I thought we'd go out sometime" while they're eating ice cream a few pages later, they don't romantically hook up.


The point of brothas getting turned way is based off of what had occurred in the title as a a whole. I should have pointed that out so that it would have been more clear. My bad. When writing my comments I was thinking of that scene as well as other situations within the series (i.e. the ice cream parlor guy). The third panel of the example you posted is, what I took to be, a Hispanic suitor. So I don't understand how you say there are no suitors here. A guy rolls up on a girl to see "what's up", that is called suitor. Maybe not the most romantic way to approach a woman but it would still fall in that category.

As far as Boris and Natasha are concerned, they do have a somewhat romantic hook up. Their entire interaction form the moment they meet and into the rest of the series is along that premise as Boris is continually courting Natasha. Though Natasha keeps saying he "won't get none" she still accepts his attentions and even gives in to kissing him early on in their romance courtship.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe?


He also moved him to a better home, gave him a much better job, started calling him "Dr. Irons," and put the 'S' back on his chest.  And as for making him "weaker," no one put Steel on *any* DCU teams before Priest, but afterwards he joined the JLA.  Granted, it was after the series was cancelled, but Priest wrote the story that had him join.


I'm not criticizing that Steel was living in a nicer house/lab nor his appointment at the hospital.. What I was concerned about was with the part that made him a super hero. His "super" powers if you will. His armor was de-powered in that he no longer had super strength and almost every other issue his armor kept getting "turned off". His previous armor (that had become a sentient creature) kept attacking which, I thought was getting kind of tired. With that going on along with other villains coming after him and he helping with city wide emergencies. So what he got the "S' back on his chest. I never could buy that this "genius" engineer could not make another suit of armor that was an advance of what he lost.  When you upgrade something, you increase it's potential you don't down grade it. You know, kind of like what Tony Stark does with the Iron Man armor.

As far as Steel being added to JLA, I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with Priest. For all we know, DC was planning to move the Steel character over to that title as the Steel solo title wasn't selling. This way the character wouldn't fall off in to obscurity.

Quote from: Vic Vega
Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.


Well, there's the stuff Evasive described from Priest's Christmas issue, but Louise Simonson had already put the family through the wringer.  Jemahl was in a street gang at the beginning, Tyke was paralyzed and later betrayed the family, and the grandmother was killed by Dr. Polaris.  And then Simonson put the whole family into Witness Protection, removing them all from the series.


Yes, Jemahl was in a gang, Tyke was paralyzed and the grandmother died. However, that were not in that extreme distressing state that Priest wrote them as when he took on the title. The mother wasn't 300+ lbs looking like the stereotypical "mammy" character. Jemahl wasn't walking around disrespecting, abusive and drinking 40's. Grandpa wasn't running around completely lost from reality. Preist took those characters to that,oh so stereotypical, extreme of an under privileged black family. It wouldn't have been so bad if the family had stayed out of the book after they went into the Witness Protection program.

Quote
Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.


Priest took over with #34.  And while sales didn't improve, the series was already one of DC's lowest sellers before he came onboard, neck-in-neck with Aztek and Takion (both of which were cancelled very soon thereafter).


I think the point is that he might have been able to increase readership so that the title may have had another four years. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to do that.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 21, 2007, 08:20:21 pm
Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story.


You've got your timeline backwards.  Priest started writing Steel two years before his BP series began.  In fact, Steel was cancelled before BP #1 hit stands.  So it's impossible for Boris to have been a Ross pastiche.

Quote
Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE.


You mean this scene:

([url]http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9430/steel345wm.jpg[/url])

There are no suitors, there are no brothas, she doesn't jump on him, and unless you count Boris saying "So I thought we'd go out sometime" while they're eating ice cream a few pages later, they don't romantically hook up.

Quote
Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe?


He also moved him to a better home, gave him a much better job, started calling him "Dr. Irons," and put the 'S' back on his chest.  And as for making him "weaker," no one put Steel on *any* DCU teams before Priest, but afterwards he joined the JLA.  Granted, it was after the series was cancelled, but Priest wrote the story that had him join.

Quote from: Vic Vega
Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.


Well, there's the stuff Evasive described from Priest's Christmas issue, but Louise Simonson had already put the family through the wringer.  Jemahl was in a street gang at the beginning, Tyke was paralyzed and later betrayed the family, and the grandmother was killed by Dr. Polaris.  And then Simonson put the whole family into Witness Protection, removing them all from the series.

Quote
Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.


Priest took over with #34.  And while sales didn't improve, the series was already one of DC's lowest sellers before he came onboard, neck-in-neck with Aztek and Takion (both of which were cancelled very soon thereafter).


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

I'm glad I got the chance to actually read the scene in question.I don't look at this issue of Priest having a White person like ROSS in his series as flaws in his writing approach or style...I actually see it as more than a little realistic.Not too many places in America--MARVEL or DCU--where you can have a pretty realistic series without any White folks,or White folks in significant positions of authority.Furthermore,I for one enjoyed the rapier wit and comedy of NATASHA and I didn't once get the sense of negativity that some of the posters here ascribed to both PRIEST and the scene in question.

Priest is an excellent writer.It's the politics and the readership which has changed,and in many instances they are able to trump the thing that is dearest to a writer's heart: writing a good story.A good story should be the number one concern of any writer.I don't care if Sgt. Tork or ROSS are around.I care that the story and the characters are good.I don't care that Priest--who knows from being in the editor's chair that "minority" characters don't become hits in the current market,and has stridently called for much more sincere attempts by MARVEL and DC to expand the readership by actively wooing the hiphop generation and people of color,and whom has been roundly ignored on that issue until AFTER he stopped penning comics--doesn't have an all-Black cast in his books.You know what I care about? He wrote the dopest damn BP of anybody in the world not named RH...and RH is able to do what he does because past masters like PRIEST and D-MAC puts it down with thunder.Period.No PIREST=NO RH.I'm trying to have all three--D-MAC,PRIEST,RH--doin the damn thang together at the same time.Our own real life comic author THREE THE HARD WAY.Miss me with everything except this dominant,salient fact:

A FALCON/BP/FF CROSS-OVER WOULD BE BANANNAS.

Endeth ILLUMINATION
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 21, 2007, 08:48:25 pm
Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story.


You've got your timeline backwards.  Priest started writing Steel two years before his BP series began.  In fact, Steel was cancelled before BP #1 hit stands.  So it's impossible for Boris to have been a Ross pastiche.

Quote
Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE.


You mean this scene:

([url]http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9430/steel345wm.jpg[/url])

There are no suitors, there are no brothas, she doesn't jump on him, and unless you count Boris saying "So I thought we'd go out sometime" while they're eating ice cream a few pages later, they don't romantically hook up.

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Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe?


He also moved him to a better home, gave him a much better job, started calling him "Dr. Irons," and put the 'S' back on his chest.  And as for making him "weaker," no one put Steel on *any* DCU teams before Priest, but afterwards he joined the JLA.  Granted, it was after the series was cancelled, but Priest wrote the story that had him join.

Quote from: Vic Vega
Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.


Well, there's the stuff Evasive described from Priest's Christmas issue, but Louise Simonson had already put the family through the wringer.  Jemahl was in a street gang at the beginning, Tyke was paralyzed and later betrayed the family, and the grandmother was killed by Dr. Polaris.  And then Simonson put the whole family into Witness Protection, removing them all from the series.

Quote
Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.


Priest took over with #34.  And while sales didn't improve, the series was already one of DC's lowest sellers before he came onboard, neck-in-neck with Aztek and Takion (both of which were cancelled very soon thereafter).


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

I'm glad I got the chance to actually read the scene in question.I don't look at this issue of Priest having a White person like ROSS in his series as flaws in his writing approach or style...I actually see it as more than a little realistic.Not too many places in America--MARVEL or DCU--where you can have a pretty realistic series without any White folks,or White folks in significant positions of authority.Furthermore,I for one enjoyed the rapier wit and comedy of NATASHA and I didn't once get the sense of negativity that some of the posters here ascribed to both PRIEST and the scene in question.

Priest is an excellent writer.It's the politics and the readership which has changed,and in many instances they are able to trump the thing that is dearest to a writer's heart: writing a good story.A good story should be the number one concern of any writer.I don't care if Sgt. Tork or ROSS are around.I care that the story and the characters are good.I don't care that Priest--who knows from being in the editor's chair that "minority" characters don't become hits in the current market,and has stridently called for much more sincere attempts by MARVEL and DC to expand the readership by actively wooing the hiphop generation and people of color,and whom has been roundly ignored on that issue until AFTER he stopped penning comics--doesn't have an all-Black cast in his books.You know what I care about? He wrote the dopest damn BP of anybody in the world not named RH...and RH is able to do what he does because past masters like PRIEST and D-MAC puts it down with thunder.Period.No PIREST=NO RH.I'm trying to have all three--D-MAC,PRIEST,RH--doin the damn thang together at the same time.Our own real life comic author THREE THE HARD WAY.Miss me with everything except this dominant,salient fact:

A FALCON/BP/FF CROSS-OVER WOULD BE BANANNAS.

Endeth ILLUMINATION


I respect your opinion SI, but I'm not sure if anyone was saying that the comic should have only black casts. At least I wasn't. I am also not saying I hate Priest or Hudlin's run of BP. In fact, I'm sure you know that based on prior posts I've made. Also I don't hate the Ross character though after awhile, in my  opinion, his appearance at times was annoying. My point of this discussion was pointing out trends that Priest used in his writing that I,from time to time, was less than enthusiastic about.

Also note that the panel that Loren has provided and they you are referencing is but one panel in one book in an entire series that still doesn't reflect all that happened in the Steel series and to what I was making my criticisms about. Mind you, I liked Steel and though I had some issues with it, I collected the entire run. I loved Priest's BP run.  I just had some reservations about them and I just happened to discover this was a pattern or style, of Priest's.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: supreme illuminati on January 21, 2007, 09:41:55 pm
Speaking of which, did any of you read "Steel" after Priest took it over (before it too got canceled)? The writers before hand were not that great and Priest DID up the level of quality somewhat. However, I soon realized he was trying to put that "Ross" element in his stories as he made up this white kid who apparently sweeps Steel's niece, Natasha, off her feet within a period of two issues. This kid, to me, had the same qualities as Ross. In fact, it pretty much WAS Ross as a sixteen year old. It seemed like Priest was once again throwing in a white character who went around telling "black" themed jokes, which is what Ross did on occasion and attempting to provide comic relief for the story.


You've got your timeline backwards.  Priest started writing Steel two years before his BP series began.  In fact, Steel was canceled before BP #1 hit stands.  So it's impossible for Boris to have been a Ross pastiche.


somehow,I missed the whole second half of this post...good post,dawg.I flat out don't like the family situation either,if it's as you describe it.I am going to have to see what PREIST himself wrote about the issues and what he wrote on his site,and I will consider that to be the final word about his interpretations of the characters,his intent,and what directions he would take them.

Okay, if that's the case, the it's Ross  who is a continuing play on the Boris character albeit more animated and some changes to the characters identity. I had believed it was Steel who came after, after reading some of Priest's notes. However, whether Steel came first or not, the point I am trying to make is to show a pattern involving Priest writing style.

Priest also makes  the resident black girl wave off all potential suitors in the 'hood who approach her except a scraggly dress white kid, with holes in his jeans and long hair, who shows up on her door step and offers to buy ice cream which she immediately jumps on after dissin' everyone else (including brothas if I remember right). This romantic hook up happens in the FIRST ISSUE.


You mean this scene:

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9430/steel345wm.jpg)

There are no suitors, there are no brothas, she doesn't jump on him, and unless you count Boris saying "So I thought we'd go out sometime" while they're eating ice cream a few pages later, they don't romantically hook up.


The point of brothas getting turned way is based off of what had occurred in the title as a a whole. I should have pointed that out so that it would have been more clear. My bad. When writing my comments I was thinking of that scene as well as other situations within the series (i.e. the ice cream parlor guy). The third panel of the example you posted is, what I took to be, a Hispanic suitor. So I don't understand how you say there are no suitors here. A guy rolls up on a girl to see "what's up", that is called suitor. Maybe not the most romantic way to approach a woman but it would still fall in that category.

As far as Boris and Natasha are concerned, they do have a somewhat romantic hook up. Their entire interaction form the moment they meet and into the rest of the series is along that premise as Boris is continually courting Natasha. Though Natasha keeps saying he "won't get none" she still accepts his attentions and even gives in to kissing him early on in their romance courtship.

Why does Priest come in and cut these black heroes and their stories down to the knees? I understand the idea of drama and making more challenges for the hero but why take a character and make him weaker still than he already is in the comic book universe?


He also moved him to a better home, gave him a much better job, started calling him "Dr. Irons," and put the 'S' back on his chest.  And as for making him "weaker," no one put Steel on *any* DCU teams before Priest, but afterwards he joined the JLA.  Granted, it was after the series was cancelled, but Priest wrote the story that had him join.


I'm not criticizing that Steel was living in a nicer house/lab nor his appointment at the hospital.. What I was concerned about was with the part that made him a super hero. His "super" powers if you will. His armor was de-powered in that he no longer had super strength and almost every other issue his armor kept getting "turned off". His previous armor (that had become a sentient creature) kept attacking which, I thought was getting kind of tired. With that going on along with other villains coming after him and he helping with city wide emergencies. So what he got the "S' back on his chest. I never could buy that this "genius" engineer could not make another suit of armor that was an advance of what he lost.  When you upgrade something, you increase it's potential you don't down grade it. You know, kind of like what Tony Stark does with the Iron Man armor.

As far as Steel being added to JLA, I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with Priest. For all we know, DC was planning to move the Steel character over to that title as the Steel solo title wasn't selling. This way the character wouldn't fall off in to obscurity.

Quote from: Vic Vega
Wasn't Prest also responsible for turning Steel's family, the Irons clan from a slightly poorer version of the Huxtables into a mass of abuse and disfucntion? It's almost like he thought that his happy family was too good to be true.


Well, there's the stuff Evasive described from Priest's Christmas issue, but Louise Simonson had already put the family through the wringer.  Jemahl was in a street gang at the beginning, Tyke was paralyzed and later betrayed the family, and the grandmother was killed by Dr. Polaris.  And then Simonson put the whole family into Witness Protection, removing them all from the series.


Yes, Jemahl was in a gang, Tyke was paralyzed and the grandmother died. However, that were not in that extreme distressing state that Priest wrote them as when he took on the title. The mother wasn't 300+ lbs looking like the stereotypical "mammy" character. Jemahl wasn't walking around disrespecting, abusive and drinking 40's. Grandpa wasn't running around completely lost from reality. Preist took those characters to that,oh so stereotypical, extreme of an under privileged black family. It wouldn't have been so bad if the family had stayed out of the book after they went into the Witness Protection program.

Quote
Note that Steel lasted nearly FOUR YEARS at DC before Priest came on the book. This may be another case where his attempts to mainstream the book drove off its target audience.


Priest took over with #34.  And while sales didn't improve, the series was already one of DC's lowest sellers before he came onboard, neck-in-neck with Aztek and Takion (both of which were cancelled very soon thereafter).


I think the point is that he might have been able to increase readership so that the title may have had another four years. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to do that.


because my PC was trippin,I missed significant segments of the second portion of this post...
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Loren on January 21, 2007, 10:01:26 pm
Okay, if that's the case, the it's Ross  who is a continuing play on the Boris character albeit more animated and some changes to the characters identity. I had believed it was Steel who came after, after reading some of Priest's notes. However, whether Steel came first or not, the point I am trying to make is to show a pattern involving Priest writing style.

I take your point, but I'm not seeing the similarities between Boris and Ross.  Ross served as narrator, and as the POV character for T'Challa.  Boris was an ordinary supporting character, whose main purpose was to be a friend for Natasha, and didn't have an awful lot of direct interaction with Steel.  He disappeared entirely for a couple of several-issue stints.  The most significant thing I can recall him contributing to a plot was when it turned out he had HIV.  Even character-wise, there's not an awful lot of similarity.

Now if you want to talk similarities between Woody (of "Quantum & Woody") and Ross, then I'm right there with you.

Quote
The point of brothas getting turned way is based off of what had occurred in the title as a a whole. I should have pointed that out so that it would have been more clear. My bad. When writing my comments I was thinking of that scene as well as other situations within the series (i.e. the ice cream parlor guy). The third panel of the example you posted is, what I took to be, a Hispanic suitor. So I don't understand how you say there are no suitors here. A guy rolls up on a girl to see "what's up", that is called suitor. Maybe not the most romantic way to approach a woman but it would still fall in that category.

Judging by her reaction and his appearance, he would seem to be considerably older than she.  And a 30-year-old hitting on a 16-year-old isn't a "suitor."

Quote
As far as Boris and Natasha are concerned, they do have a somewhat romantic hook up. Their entire interaction form the moment they meet and into the rest of the series is along that premise as Boris is continually courting Natasha. Though Natasha keeps saying he "won't get none" she still accepts his attentions and even gives in to kissing him early on in their romance courtship.

True, but that's a couple of issues later.  Nat certainly isn't having any romantic thoughts about Boris at this point.

Quote
I'm not criticizing that Steel was living in a nicer house/lab nor his appointment at the hospital.. What I was concerned about was with the part that made him a super hero. His "super" powers if you will. His armor was de-powered in that he no longer had super strength and almost every other issue his armor kept getting "turned off". His previous armor (that had become a sentient creature) kept attacking which, I thought was getting kind of tired. With that going on along with other villains coming after him and he helping with city wide emergencies. So what he got the "S' back on his chest. I never could buy that this "genius" engineer could not make another suit of armor that was an advance of what he lost.  When you upgrade something, you increase it's potential you don't down grade it. You know, kind of like what Tony Stark does with the Iron Man armor.

Well, the suit wasn't as strong as the previous one, but he does describe it as sleeker and more maneuverable.  And he had easier access to it (without the silly 'White Zone').  So some pluses, some minuses.  Plus, Priest gave him that extra-portable black suit, and gave his hammer a serious high-tech upgrade.

Quote
Yes, Jemahl was in a gang, Tyke was paralyzed and the grandmother died. However, that were not in that extreme distressing state that Priest wrote them as when he took on the title. The mother wasn't 300+ lbs looking like the stereotypical "mammy" character. Jemahl wasn't walking around disrespecting, abusive and drinking 40's. Grandpa wasn't running around completely lost from reality. Preist took those characters to that,oh so stereotypical, extreme of an under privileged black family. It wouldn't have been so bad if the family had stayed out of the book after they went into the Witness Protection program.

Yeah, I wish that Priest hadn't painted the family that way either.  Not the best decision of his run.  I was just trying to point out that they weren't the Huxtable-lite clan that Vic recalled.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: sinjection on January 21, 2007, 11:18:40 pm

No.

Marvelous answer.....Marvelous.
 
I believe that Lee and Kirby were doing everything they possibly could to avoid any hint of racism where white comic book readers were concerned, possible condescension where black comic book readers were concerned and possibly being accused of something like copyright infringement when they initially outfitted T'Challa in a ridiculous yellow and black-striped tunic and were calling him the "Coal Tiger" although no tigers - except for sabre tooth variety and they were actually more closely related to lions than to tigers - existed on the African continent. At approximately the same time Lee and Kirby were creating the Black Panther, the Lowndes County Freedom Organization had chosen for their political activities, a powerful symbol that had all associated with or aware of the Organization indentifying them as the "Black Panther Party."
 
Eventually, Lee and Kirby created T'Challa as the Black Panther and the character appeared in the pages of the Fantastic Four and later as a member of the Avengers. For a time, the racial climate of the times may have prompted then-writer of the Avengers - Roy Thomas - to toy with changing the Panther's name to the Leopard. This from Avengers #105:

T'Challa: "Better let me lead the way in here. I'm well-trained for dealing with darkness, after all."
 
Iron Man: "Sure, Panth-- ah, for the record, what is your chosen name, T'Challa?"
 
Hawkeye: "Yeah, the Fantastic Four said you'd changed it."
 
T'Challa: "True, I did, when I first thought of returning to America. I did not want my personal goals and tribal heritage confused with political plans made by others. But in the final analysis, I decided that made as much sense as altering the Scarlet Witch's name----because witches are generally thought of as ugly. I am not a stereotype. I am myself. And I am--The Black Panther."
 
***********************************************
Reading this now, I'm wondering if Roy Thomas wasn't acting on the same impulse we have seen in some...no, many fanboys (and some fangals), of the caucasian persuasion who have expressed an opinion that Hudlin's BP had been portrayed as "ghetto". Those fanboys/gals seem to be discomforted when T'Challa or Ororo become what they might perceive as being too closely associated with black Americans and with black American culture.

Thomas had T'Challa actually consider changing centuries of "tribal heritage" of the Wakandan people simply because he didn't want to be associated with the political aspirations and activities of some black Americans who by that time were being called and were calling themselves, the Black Panthers. And, as I mentioned earlier, contrary to what Wikipedia might try to have us believe, the LCFO was likely using that name "Black Panther" before Lee and Kirby were finally compelled by common creative sense, to use for T'Challa. Art imitates life. Rarely, if ever, is it the other way around.
 
Thomas would have appeased today's anti-Hudlin "lunatic legions" with his approach. T'Challa referred to politically-active black Americans as "others". He distanced himself from them. His analogy between the Scarlet Witch and "ugly" witches seemed to cast aspersions on the political and human/civil rights aspirations of black Americans as they related to the Black Panther of Wakanda, his "personal goals" and his "tribal heritage". Remember, Lee and Kirby likely lifted the name "Black Panther" from the Lowndes County Freedom Organization in the first place. T'Challa announces that he is not a "stereotype". This is exactly what the anti-Hudlin "lunatic legions" accuse Hudlin of doing everytime T'Challa and/or Ororo are associating with black American people or black American culture. They don't peep or quack when Ororo goes shopping with Mrs. Fantastic and Kitty Pryde. But when Ororo says, "I just didn't like the way he was trying to play you...", then the barnyard of ducks becomes very active.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Vic Vega on January 22, 2007, 06:46:31 am
You know one thing I always thought was kind of funny about Priest was that he always wanted to be known as a good comic book writer instead of a good black comic book writer. Yet, he kept bringing up how he was wronged in that the comic book industry would not recognize him as the first black comic book editor. This reminds me of how African American actors and comedians (i.e. Bernie Mack, Nia Long, etc.) will say similar statements of how they want to be recognized for just being entertainers, not black entertainers. Yet they will be happy to get those BET awards and NAACP recognition.

BTW, I do dig some Preist's work (Black Panther, of course) but I have to point out somethings I don't particularly like that he has done.

I hate it when Black people pull out that "I dont want to be known as a Black...".  As if transcending race is the ultimate goal, or the holy grail.  Being successful.  Nope.  Not good enough.  I want to rise above the hindrance of color.  As if.  There has never been a Black person in the history of this country that has transcended race.   Priest and 'nem need to get off that sh*t and just do what they do.

When you know as a verifiable fact that minority comic book characters sell a fraction of their White counterparts, it becomes a vicious cycle: get put on a book bound for cancellation then it actually gets cancelled and you're known as the guy who keep getting books cancelled out from under you.

Priest never got a real shot at X-men or Iron Man (despite Enemy of the State), books that might have catpulted him from cult fave to the A-list. Instead he does Captain America and the Falcon. Cap's never been able substain 2 books at the same time. Mark Waid couldnt do it. There was no way Priest was gonna do it Falcon or no Falcon.

This is the kind of thing that his reluctance to do minority titles stems from, I think.

     
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: The Evasive 1 on January 22, 2007, 07:42:26 pm
Okay, if that's the case, the it's Ross  who is a continuing play on the Boris character albeit more animated and some changes to the characters identity. I had believed it was Steel who came after, after reading some of Priest's notes. However, whether Steel came first or not, the point I am trying to make is to show a pattern involving Priest writing style.

I take your point, but I'm not seeing the similarities between Boris and Ross.  Ross served as narrator, and as the POV character for T'Challa.  Boris was an ordinary supporting character, whose main purpose was to be a friend for Natasha, and didn't have an awful lot of direct interaction with Steel.  He disappeared entirely for a couple of several-issue stints.  The most significant thing I can recall him contributing to a plot was when it turned out he had HIV.  Even character-wise, there's not an awful lot of similarity.

Now if you want to talk similarities between Woody (of "Quantum & Woody") and Ross, then I'm right there with you.

This is why I said, "it's Ross  who is a continuing play on the Boris character albeit more animated and some changes to the characters identity." However, the fact remains that both Boris and Ross were white male characters who were placed into the story and went around telling "black" themed jokes", which was an attempt, I assume, to provide comic relief for the story. These are the similarities I was talking about. As far as Quantum and Woody goes, I never read that series, but from what you are telling me and based of of Priest's account, again this shows a trend in Priest's writing.

The point of brothas getting turned way is based off of what had occurred in the title as a a whole. I should have pointed that out so that it would have been more clear. My bad. When writing my comments I was thinking of that scene as well as other situations within the series (i.e. the ice cream parlor guy). The third panel of the example you posted is, what I took to be, a Hispanic suitor. So I don't understand how you say there are no suitors here. A guy rolls up on a girl to see "what's up", that is called suitor. Maybe not the most romantic way to approach a woman but it would still fall in that category.

Judging by her reaction and his appearance, he would seem to be considerably older than she.  And a 30-year-old hitting on a 16-year-old isn't a "suitor."

Any male, regardless the age, trying to get a number or some tail from a woman,no matter the age, is a suitor. Modern day law may see it as illegal if one of the individuals is over 18 and the other is not, but prior to that, men and women who fell in the different age groups who were looking for romantic (or just sexual) engagements are suitors. And even today you still hear of the occasional pairing consensually regardless of law. I'm not sure why we are debating this point.

As far as Boris and Natasha are concerned, they do have a somewhat romantic hook up. Their entire interaction form the moment they meet and into the rest of the series is along that premise as Boris is continually courting Natasha. Though Natasha keeps saying he "won't get none" she still accepts his attentions and even gives in to kissing him early on in their romance courtship.

True, but that's a couple of issues later.  Nat certainly isn't having any romantic thoughts about Boris at this point.

No. As I said before, Boris was attempting to court Natasha from Day One. When you court someone, the moment they except your  invitation, whether it is to go to the movies, dinner or the ice cream parlor you are on a path to be romantic. Just because Natasha didn't kiss Boris or jump in bed with him immediately does not mean she was not flirting with him and him with her, which they were. Boris was courting Natasha. Natasha was accepting the attention. Natasha was considering being romantic with Boris while initially hanging out with Boris. It was romantic.

I'm not criticizing that Steel was living in a nicer house/lab nor his appointment at the hospital.. What I was concerned about was with the part that made him a super hero. His "super" powers if you will. His armor was de-powered in that he no longer had super strength and almost every other issue his armor kept getting "turned off". His previous armor (that had become a sentient creature) kept attacking which, I thought was getting kind of tired. With that going on along with other villains coming after him and he helping with city wide emergencies. So what he got the "S' back on his chest. I never could buy that this "genius" engineer could not make another suit of armor that was an advance of what he lost.  When you upgrade something, you increase it's potential you don't down grade it. You know, kind of like what Tony Stark does with the Iron Man armor.

Well, the suit wasn't as strong as the previous one, but he does describe it as sleeker and more maneuverable.  And he had easier access to it (without the silly 'White Zone').  So some pluses, some minuses.  Plus, Priest gave him that extra-portable black suit, and gave his hammer a serious high-tech upgrade.

Sleeker and maneuverable but he could be taken out by one good shot by almost any super powered enemy. The suit also deflated every time it got hit in the wrong place during a emergency and it hung on him like a wet suit. And THAT isn't as silly or worse as the White Zone? That is not an upgrade. It's weaker than his original suit. He could be harmed or killed much easier. It's a downgrade.

Yes, Jemahl was in a gang, Tyke was paralyzed and the grandmother died. However, that were not in that extreme distressing state that Priest wrote them as when he took on the title. The mother wasn't 300+ lbs looking like the stereotypical "mammy" character. Jemahl wasn't walking around disrespecting, abusive and drinking 40's. Grandpa wasn't running around completely lost from reality. Preist took those characters to that,oh so stereotypical, extreme of an under privileged black family. It wouldn't have been so bad if the family had stayed out of the book after they went into the Witness Protection program.

Yeah, I wish that Priest hadn't painted the family that way either.  Not the best decision of his run.  I was just trying to point out that they weren't the Huxtable-lite clan that Vic recalled.

I can see your point here. However, the characters had not fallen so far. Even Jemahl, though he had joined a gang, was at that point were he had not been completely lost in that life and still had a sense of family and respect. I kept waiting for Steel or someone within the family to convince him to leave that life alone. The potential for the anti-gang message was there but never fully explored in my opinion. Besides that the family was living in a decent home, the mother worked for all we know and they appeared to be a somewhat normal working class (maybe even middle class) family.
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: SplitInfinity on October 16, 2007, 07:22:23 pm
I'm curious about your thoughts on this. I remember when I was younger, I bought a Spidey with Black Panther in it. My mom saw it and said he was a horrible stereotype, and Marvel was racist for having such a character. Now I know Hudlin, and I think Priest before him, have tried very hard to show that BP is not just a stereotype, but a strong black role model.

So the question is, when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby originally created BP were they just reinforcing racial stereotypes, or were they trying to bring down racial barriers by making a strong black character? Could it be both? Can someone be good intentioned, and yet still racist? And if that's the case, is it okay?

Thoughts?

I think it was the opposite of reinforcing old stereotypes. Before the superhero genre really took off in the 60's and 70's, most comics were pulp magazines. These were typically mystery or adventure stories with little in the way of plot or depth(pulp didn't just refer to the quality of the paper!). One scenario that was fairly common back then was for the hero to met and battle "savages" in Africa, South America, in the past, etc. In a typically racist way, these "backwards" cultures often resorted to magic to combat the technological prowess(guns) of the heroes. I think Black Panther was a subversion of that trope. Instead of the natives using magic to fight the technology of outsiders, they instead used tech that was far superior(which also plays into Arther C. Clark's famous quote about any sufficiently advanced technology being analogous to magic)!
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: Hypestyle on May 12, 2009, 08:22:00 am
white wash jones was a sambo type charecer, big lips and in black face,  if marvel reintroduces that charecter, they will get to see the ***** in me >:(

there will be a Young Allies reprint coming out this spring, including a brand-new story based on those characters.. I wonder how he'll be interpreted..
Title: Re: Was Marvel being racist when the originally created Black Panther?
Post by: FLEX HECTIC on May 12, 2009, 10:43:35 am
Creating black super heroes is just like having black athletes, actors or politicians. Once they are in abundance and you have more to choose from then there is a better chance of a Michael Jordan, a Denzel Washington or a Barack Obama emerging from them.

A whole nations worth of black super heroes would make selection of the best of the best easier as opposed to a few carrying the whole genre at a time. Stan Lee and them were making up stuff based upon their own understanding as opposed to ours.

After we get passed this GANGSTA stage of entertainment I believe we will see better and better in the future to come. The racism in comics will slide to the right just as it did when brothas started dunking, scoring touchdowns and putting golf balls as Tiger Woods is doing.

When we start feeling more super heroic as a people then the super heroes will show up!