Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Seven on November 07, 2009, 08:02:56 am

Title: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 07, 2009, 08:02:56 am
According to Mr. Maberry

Quote
Issue #10 will give you another glimpse into the kind of power upgrade T'Challa's getting. Not everything is measured in how many tons a hero can lift, but in how many kinds of battles he's prepared for

Quote
For the record, T'Challa can now lift about one ton.  Not Spider-man level, but not shabby either.  Enhanced power in the hands of a physicist has a lot of potential. (and fighting is all about physics, when you think about it: mass, torque, depth of penetration, force, etc.)


I'm hoping he is now very similar to Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) only with the speed and strength upgrades.

Quote
In Batgirl #14 the writer, Kelley Puckett, places Cassandra in a position within the story in which her skills are analyzed by a group of government experts. Through this panel, the creative team reveal to the reader that the character is written as having no metagene. Her genetic status was felt to be incompatible with her recorded abilities by one of the experts, however, who stated: "Her individual moves are borderline human. It's her aggregate speed that's metahuman. Look -- humans can throw a 100 miles-per-hour fastball, smash concrete blocks with their heads, and run 4.2 forties. What they can't do is all of that at once. It's not so much physical as... as mentally impossible. Too much to coordinate."
---Kelley Puckett (w), Damion Scott (p), John Lowe (i). Batgirl (14) (May 2001), DC Comics.

I don't know who has read her books on HEF, but she has some amazing feats, and was pretty popular because of them. I'm convinced that T'challa would be the same.

I think he should be able to bullet time, to show off his speed. In the same manner that Hulk and other heroes are strength based, Tíchalla should be about speed and agility, with his one ton level strength.

Quote
power in the hands of a physicist has a lot of potential. (and fighting is all about physics, when you think about it: mass, torque, depth of penetration, force, etc

So his genius analytical/physicist mind in tandem with is upgrade should allow him to do some incredible speed and agility feats in my opinion. Think the movie Equilibrium (classic movie btw, C. Baleís audition for Dark Knight basically) with itís Gun Kata.

Quote
Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.

This is also not taking into account one of this main superpowers for many years, that has been ignored or misusedÖ.He has superhuman senses, but he hardly uses them, or in a way that is cool.

He should be able to notice things to a terrifying minutiae degree that others miss would miss. When combined with his analytical abilities and physicist mind  (like Mr. Maberry said with him using his new 1 ton level) this ďsense-tellingĒ (detect whether someone is lying by detecting inflection and change in a subject's voice, observing and interpreting their body language and analyzing physical signs like pulse and heart rate.) would be a great way to show off his super-senses; using them during fights to tell when a person is going to move, there next action or do something. So he would appear  a lot faster because of it. Mr. Hudlin did show this during CW, between Tíchalla and Sue Storm when she was trying to lie to him, that was awesome. I hope this concept is not forgotten.

Tíchalla does not and should not be a clone of Spiderman. So I will have to agree with Marvel and Maberry. Remembering that I didnít want him to be Captain Wakanda (Cap clone). So this physicist slant is pretty awesome, and welcomed.






Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: Seven on November 07, 2009, 09:26:03 am
Another thing, how does this upgrade improve his chances of facing Doom?
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 07, 2009, 02:34:51 pm
One ton? That's quite realistic,given current Olympic standards...and becomes part of an incredibly impressive arsenal when you factor in his foot speed (definitely faster than CA--who clocks 60mph--even BEFORE his upgrade) his supersenses (how sharp are they now?),his agility,his uberintellect,etc...

....ladies n germs? We're prolly in store for the illest ride with the illest BP and supporting cast ever. And that's sayin LOTS with Dwayne,RH,CJP,and Denys Cowan having made BP the true O.G. he is.

Jonathan? Gotta admit: I'm really impressed with you. You're a worthy successor to your trailblazin forescribes. Lol.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: The Cat on November 09, 2009, 05:12:08 am
^^^^ I agree. I have never seen T'Challa as peak-human; in the way marvel represented him in the past; and I really hope that this adjustment is permanent.  ;)
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 09, 2009, 06:57:22 am
^^^^ I agree. I have never seen T'Challa as peak-human; in the way marvel represented him in the past; and I really hope that this adjustment is permanent.  ;)

I actually perceive much of what is comsidered "low level" superhuman is ACTUALLY within human performance parameters.

However,the kind of simultaneous performance that Cassandra Cain aka Batgirl is capable of may very well be metahuman,and I think that TChalla should be the pinnacle example of this kind of physical and mental superability.

This approach that jonathan has hinted at,btw,preserves the traditional MU perception of the physical difference between BP and CA: basically CA is stronger and more durable than BP. Our 616 CA has yet to demonstrate the strength levels of our 616 BP's "upgrade",but Ultimate CA is clearly stronger at 5 tons. Steve Rogers will surely be placed around 5 tons upon his 616 return,if for no other reason than the fact that Wolverine should NEVER be stronger than CA (or BP,to be real about it) and Wolverine clocks in at 2 tons. Now recall that we have hundreds of real world examples wherein regular humans experienced a hyperadrenaline dump and moved trucks,vans,etc. when they and/or their loved ones were in danger. This is the kind of strength that is clearly human that should be REGULAR for CA and BP. So we have the most solid real world examples that 5 tons is reasonable for the CA's and BP's of the world.

However,what I think we'll see is that CA will eventually clearly be stronger and more durable than BP,and BP will clearly be quicker,faster,more agile,slicker,more acrobatic,smarter (in the sense that REED,TONY and HANK are smarter than Steve...in a infogeek ubertech sense) and more capable than CA in the sense of say the ultimate Olympic decathlete fused with the ultimate academic decathlete fused is more capable than say the world record setting powerlifter--a specialist--will outperform the decathlete in their chosen specialty.However,BP is far more guileful,clever,ruthless and manipulative than the aforementioned braintrust triumvirate of the MU (which should in actuality be a ogdoad including TCHALLA DOOM THE LEADER maybe KANG and definitely BRUCE BANNER). He supplements his superintellect with the kind of spiritual serenity,ultimate ubercool unflappable prep powerlord,rigorously royal,ubergenius ubertech flyness of CJP BP,and now he has the way overdue illness that jonathan supplies him with.

Remember the kinds of feats that CJP had Bruce Banner-Hulk pull off during CJP's CA+FALCON team up (btw CJP FALC=THEE DEFINITIVE FALCON)? Expect variations to the nth degree of creativity on that theme.

BP is gonna be da ISH,son. Just wish he didn't have to have a power boost to justify very plausible feats on his part.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 09, 2009, 07:16:39 am
So BP can...decrypt DOOM's encoded transmissions,unravel and foil his latest plots,dodge attacks by supervillains and Doombots, fend off attempts to read his mind,note the arrival of a lethal synthetic virus that THE CABAL tries to kill him and his superhero homies with,analyze its components and construct a cure for the rest of them while TCHALLA uses his ka to render it useless...all while balancing on a laser beam that he's traversing in order to catch DOOM unawares.

That's a aggregate feat TChalla has long been capable of and should now be a staple of his series.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: Seven on November 09, 2009, 08:22:42 am
The question is the 1 ton level is max or his base. It should be his base level (but I'm not the writer lol). That way he can see T'challa once in a while push himself to a great feat that he would not usally do... like 5 tons with max effort. His human frame would still be a reason for him not to do that all the time.

But if max is 1 ton, then I will be kind of disappointed. I hate when characters are boxed up. For example, Wolverine, Cap or Spiderman are never boxed in.

Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: What feats should we see?
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 09, 2009, 01:07:12 pm
The question is the 1 ton level is max or his base. I should be his base level (but I not the writer lol). That way he can see T'challa once in a while push himself to a great feat that he would not usally do... like 5 tons with max effort. His human frame would still be a reason for him not to do that all the time.

But if max is 1 ton, then I will be kind of disappointed. I hate when characters are boxed up. For example, Wolerine, Cap or Spiderman are never boxed in.



Co-sign like tangent's homeboy.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 07:54:36 am
There is a very interesting thread on CBR which pretty much sums up what I have seen anecdotally with Tíchalla and why I have always been a huge advocate of him getting upgraded and having better feats and Why I think he isnít A-list.

Tíchalla is one of those rare characters that has pretty much everything, his personality, background, upbringing, iconic outfit and more.  But his power-set and how he gets his powers is very, very convoluted and does not really make much sense.  For a lot of people itís one thing that turns them off, they get to the point where they are like cool, cool, cool, then when they see this power-set itís a huge let down.  Powers usually does not make the character, but for some reason in Tíchalla case it does (along with lack of feats).

Let me explain.

Tíchalla becoming Peak-Human from the Heart Shape Herb has *never* made sense to me (or a lot of people for that matter). While this does not take into account all its nuances, in its simplest explanation the HSH was the Wakandan ďsuper soldier formulaĒ but not as good. This is how it was and has been presented for years. This sort of thing was a big factor in the destruction of the character post Lee/Kirby. Not that he had those powers then, but comic-fandom rules came along Cap was THE Peak Human. In tandem with writers after Lee/Kirby/McGregor striping away all the cleverness and technology from Tíchalla, young fans would see this guy in the extremely cool outfit, only to find out he was only human and jumped around a lot. He fought Klaw when he came around and thatís it (The lame avengers run by Roy Thomas, thank god for Mr. Priest ret conning it).

Even if he was shown to be just Ďbelowí Captain America (whoís SSF put him at the very highest possible level of Peak Human) you had characters like Daredevil, Hawkeye, etc who seem just as fast, if not fasterÖ and feats whoís were far better then ĎPeak-humaní Tíchalla. It made no sense, this was killing the character. He had pretty much everything, but for a long time he was just a guy jumping around in a cat suit that everyone the comic (the characters) said was cool, but whose feats where not all that great when compared to the A-list heroes, B-list even.  He was not the guy from FF #52, but someone else. A character with so much potential, stuck in the background. He was still cool, but he was stuck there.

Captain America being Peak Human from the SSF makes sense for Steve Rogers; who was a sickly, geeky kid who became the pinnacle of human perfection for America during WW2, when he joined the SS program while trying to help America. But for Tíchalla it made no sense. Heís royalty and was not some sickly child. He was raised and trained from Birth. If Daredevil and so many others could attain peak human status or near it without any substance, while at the same time having feats that far out classed Tíchalla, understand that this is a huge factor in some comic fans not respecting the character at all. After Lee/Kirby/Donald McGregor and Before C. J Priest he (Tí challa) was totally stripped of all technology and was not a prep master, just a human acrobat in a cat suit that jumped around. The guy standing in the back ground of all the other Avengers. Priest received a lot of hate for returning Tíchalla to his roots, Tíchalla was the biggest bad ass in Marvel period, but other books did not honor it. Understand that this is the real reason why Mr. Hudlin gets a lot of flack, because he was having none of That B.SÖhis run was a big F-u to all the haters out there of the character. He did it his wayÖand he was the first writer (Jason Aaron followed up nicely) that did not hold back with Tíchalla. While Priest explained everything, Mr. Hudlin didnít. Good or bad, I understood why. Spiderman does not explain, neither does Batman. Why should Tíchalla???  None of these characters are with limits, for example Wolverine. He does something above his level and its coolÖ.but Tíchalla always seems to have them.

Still the convoluted background of his powers linger.

Donald McGregor did a great job trying to explain and define the Heart Shape Herb so it would make sense.

Quote
"The poultice stimulated and accentuated the human being's kinesthetic sense. The kinesthetic sense is the subliminal perception that allows human beings to close their eyes, yet know where the different parts of their bodies are. If you didn't have this sense, you couldn't pick your nose or wash your hair if your eyes weren't open. The poultice, plus the stimuli of rigorous theological and physical training, heightened your kinesthetic sense. It heightens the proprioceptors (the proprioceptive system processes the orientation sense to the brain) and perceptions in your body. That is how you sense where a tree limb or a building edge is, know exactly where it is and never have a moment's doubt that your fingers will close about it...The sacred anointment poultice has a second effect on your muscles and ligaments, specifically on the joints where bones connect and swivel, mesh and respond. There are receptors in these joints called the Pacinian corpuscles that carry the signal to the brain to fulfill proper movement. Somehow the poultice is absorbed into those receptors and makes them especially sensitive...This is what enables you to twist and dodge with unparalleled grace."
--- Donald McGregor - Panthers Prey

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/751449-supraqi_1__super.jpg)

Quote
ďIn truth, he had been content with the knowledge that the religious rituals had even him a spiritual strength that has in turn enhanced his physical prowessĒ


McGregor accomplished separating the Heart Shape Herb from the Super Soldier formula, however when other writers dumbed down his explanation, it also made Tíchalla the Wakandan Captain America, only he was weaker (and Steve still had far better feats).  Gone was the spiritual strength to enhance his physical prowess, the HSH just turned him peak human, and he could jump around a lot. Priest followed McGregor, but by then what I just explained pretty much was negated.

Hudlin made Tíchalla a product of Royal Wakandan eugenics, but did not touch on the HSH much until the first arc of this volume. The eugenics and warrior training in this volume in my opinion has raised the character up, and giving him new life. Still the issue of the HSH turning someone peak human who should be able to attain peak human status without it is troubling.  Tíchalla and Shuri both should be peak human before they even take the herb. But then that leaves the herb only giving them superhumanly acute senses, which is why McGregorís explanation was always the best. Tíchallaís reflexes, the way he moves, twist and turns, the fact that he can jump and know where to put out his hand without even thinking about it are what the HSH should be about about. Peak Human Status should not even factor in at all.

Also the fact that BAST is granting the power also does not make sense. Why would the Panther god only give his/her top follower peak human ability? That does not make sense at all. This makes Tíchalla look weak in my opinion. it also makes Bast look weak too. Daredevil and many others become Peak human without it, so does Batman and many other DC and Marvel heroes in tandem with better feats.

So the upgrade is pretty awesome to me. 1 ton is great; he does not have to be as strong as Spiderman. Spider-Man is able to lift almost 10 tons at maximum effort.  The question is if Tíchallaís maximum effort is 1 ton versus 1 ton being his base strength (with his maximum effort falling short of Spiderman at about like 5 tons). That latter is the better upgrade. If his maximum effort strength is 1 ton then that is very disappointing. The better way would be to just state his base level, and not give a real limit to who far he can push himself, but make the limit that is decent like 4-5 tons but he could suffer structural damage to his body as the reason why he does not do this.

Like I said, 1 ton is great, but my focus though is on speed. Speed kills, and Tíchallaís speed should be on par with Spiderman. Most who have longed for an upgrade almost never site lifting power or his strength. Even if his max was 1 ton, his speed should be his best physical power.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/762119-spidermanvblackpanther_super.jpg)

One thing that does make me kind of weary is turning him into triathlon 2.0. Spider-Man's reflexes are some where around 15 to 18 times that of a normal human and them making Tíchalla being only 3 or 4 is just making him triathlon physically. I fear that is how it will be viewed.  It ready has by some.

When folks compare Tíchalla to another hero itís mostly DCís Batman. The comparison is from the right family. Tíchalla should be compared and more a long the lines of Cassandra Cain (former Batgirl). That is my new beating drum.  She is extremely popular for a reason. She is Ďpeak humaní but she performs what many think Tíchalla should be able to do. If T'challa had her feats he would be one of the most popular heroes at Marvel and yes A-list. So I will start posting them for debate.


Feats and good powers explaintion = closer to A- list.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Shade on November 10, 2009, 08:14:28 am
There is a very interesting thread on CBR which pretty much sums up what I have seen anecdotally with Tíchalla and why I have always been a huge advocate of him getting upgraded and having better feats and Why I think he isnít A-list.

Tíchalla is one of those rare characters that have pretty much everything, his personality, background, upbringing, iconic outfit and more.  But his power-set and how he gets his powers is very, very convoluted and does not really make much sense.  For a lot of people itís one thing that turns them off, they get to the point where they are like cool, cool, cool, then when they see this power-set itís a huge let down.  Powers usually does not make the character, but for some reason in Tíchalla case it does (along with lack of feats).

Let me explain.

Tíchalla becoming Peak-Human from the Heart Shape Herb has *never* made sense to me (or a lot of people for that matter). While this does not take into account all its nuances, in its simplest explanation, the HSH was the Wakandan ďsuper soldier formulaĒ but not as good. This is how it was and has been presented for years. This sort of thing was a big factor in the destruction of the character post Lee/Kirby. Not that he had those powers then, but comic-fandom rules came along Cap was the Peak Human. In tandem with writers after Lee/Kirby/McGregor striping away all the cleverness and technology from Tíchalla, young fans would see this guy in the extremely cool outfit, only to find out he was only human and jumped around a lot. He fought Klaw when he came around and thatís it (The lame avengers run by Roy Thomas, thank god for Mr. Priest ret conning it).

Even if he was shown to be just Ďbelowí Captain America (whoís SSF put him at the very highest possible level of Peak Human) you had characters like Daredevil, Hawkeye, etc who seem just as fast, if not fasterÖ and feats whoís were far better then ĎPeak-humaní Tíchalla. It made no sense, this was killing the character. He had pretty much everything, but for a long time he was just a guy jumping around in a cat suit that everyone the comic (the characters) said was cool, but whose feats where not all that great when compared to the A-list heroes, B-list even.  He was not the guy from FF #52, but someone else. A character with so much potential, stuck in the background. He was still cool, but he was stuck there.

Captain America being Peak Human from the SSF makes sense for Steve Rogers; who was a sickly, geeky kid who became the pinnacle of human perfection for America during WW2, when he joined the SS program while trying to help America. But for Tíchalla it made no sense. Heís royalty and was not some sickly child. He was raised and trained from Birth. If Daredevil and so many others could attain peak human status or near it without any substance, while at the same time having feats that far out classed Tíchalla, understand that this is a huge factor in some comic fans not respecting the character at all. After Lee/Kirby/Donald McGregor and Before C. J Priest he (Tí challa) was totally stripped of all technology and was not a prep master, just a human acrobat in a cat suit that jumped around. The guy standing in the back ground of all the other Avengers. Priest received a lot of hate for returning Tíchalla to his roots, Tíchalla was the biggest bad ass in Marvel period, but other books did not honor it. Understand that this is the real reason why Mr. Hudlin gets a lot of flack, because he was having none of hat B.SÖhis run was a big F-u to all the haters out there of the character. He did it his wayÖand he was the first writer (Jason Aaron followed up nicely) that did not hold back with Tíchalla. While Priest explained everything, Mr. Hudlin didnít. Good or bad, I understood why. Spiderman does not explain, neither does Batman. Why should Tíchalla???  None of these characters are with limits, for example Wolverine. He does something above his level and its coolÖ.but Tíchalla always seems to have them.

Still the convoluted background of his powers linger.

Donald McGregor did a great job trying to explain and define the Heart Shape Herb so it would make sense.

"The poultice stimulated and accentuated the human being's kinesthetic sense. The kinesthetic sense is the subliminal perception that allows human beings to close their eyes, yet know where the different parts of their bodies are. If you didn't have this sense, you couldn't pick your nose or wash your hair if your eyes weren't open. The poultice, plus the stimuli of rigorous theological and physical training, heightened your kinesthetic sense. It heightens the proprioceptors (the proprioceptive system processes the orientation sense to the brain) and perceptions in your body. That is how you sense where a tree limb or a building edge is, know exactly where it is and never have a moment's doubt that your fingers will close about it...The sacred anointment poultice has a second effect on your muscles and ligaments, specifically on the joints where bones connect and swivel, mesh and respond. There are receptors in these joints called the Pacinian corpuscles that carry the signal to the brain to fulfill proper movement. Somehow the poultice is absorbed into those receptors and makes them especially sensitive...This is what enables you to twist and dodge with unparalleled grace."--- Donald McGregor - Panthers Prey

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/751449-supraqi_1__super.jpg)

ďIn truth, he had been content with the knowledge that the religious rituals had even him a spiritual strength that has in turn enhanced his physical prowessĒ

McGregor accomplished separating the Heart Shape Herb from the Super Soldier formula, however when other writers dumbed down his explanation, it also made Tíchalla the Wakandan Captain America, only he was weaker (and Steve still had far better feats).  Gone was the spiritual strength to enhance his physical prowess, the HSH just turned him peak human, and he could jump around a lot. Priest followed McGregor, but by then what I just explained pretty much was negated.

Hudlin made Tíchalla a product of Royal Wakandan eugenics, but did not touch on the HSH much until the first arc of this volume. The eugenics and warrior training in this volume in my opinion has raised the character up, and giving him new life. Still the issue of the HSH turning someone peak human who should be able to attain peak human status without it is troubling.  Tíchalla and Shuri both should be peak human before they even take the herb. But then that leaves the herb only giving them superhumanly acute senses, which is why McGregorís explanation was always the best. Tíchallaís reflexes, the way he moves, twist and turns, the fact that he can jump and know where to put out his hand without even thinking about it are what the HSH should be about about. Peak Human Status should not even factor in at all.

Also the fact that BAST is granting the power also does not make sense. Why would the Panther god only give his/her top follower peak human ability? That does not make sense at all. This makes Tíchalla look weak in my opinion. Daredevil and many others become Peak human without it, so does Batman and all the other DC heroes in tandem with better feats.

So the upgrade is pretty awesome to me. 1 ton is great; he does not have to be as strong as Spiderman. Spider-Man is able to lift almost 10 tons at maximum effort.  The question is if Tíchallaís maximum effort is 1 ton versus 1 ton being his base strength (with his maximum effort falling short of Spiderman at about like 5 tons). That latter is the better upgrade. If his maximum effort strength is 1 ton then that is very disappointing. The better way would be to just state his base level, and not give a real limit to who far he can push himself, but make the limit that is decent like 4-5 tons but he could suffer structural damage to his body as the reason why he does not do this.

Like I said, 1 ton is great, but my focus though is on speed. Speed kills, and Tíchallaís speed should be on par with Spiderman. Most who have longed for an upgrade almost never site lifting power or his strength. Even if his max was 1 ton, his speed should be his best physical power.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/762119-spidermanvblackpanther_super.jpg)

One thing that does make me kind of weary is turning him into triathlon 2.0. Spider-Man's reflexes are some where around 15 to 18 times that of a normal human and them making Tíchalla being only 3 or 4 is just making him triathlon physically. I fear that is how it will be viewed.  It ready has by some.

When folks compare Tíchalla to another hero itís mostly DCís Batman. The comparison is from the right family. Tíchalla should be compared and more a long the lines of Cassandra Cain (former Batgirl). That is my new beating drum.  She is extremely popular for a reason. She is Ďpeak humaní but she performs what many think Tíchalla should be able to do. If T'challa had her feats he would be one of the most popular heroes at Marvel and yes A-list. So I will start posting them for debate.


Feats and good powers explaintion = closer to A- list.



Agree with everything said here. The herb making him peak human NEVER made sense to me either when he should have been peak human BEFORE he took the herb due to his genetic bloodline and training. Same with Shuri.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 08:24:34 am
Yes, this is very common. Even Priest talked about it, and why he didn't want to write the character.
But when I debate and even talk to other comic readers, this is what I always find most striking. As a fan die hard fan of the character this has aways bothered me.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Shade on November 10, 2009, 08:33:22 am
Yes, this is very common. Even Priest talked about it, and why he didn't want to write the character.
But when I debate and even talk to other comic readers, this is what I always find most striking. As a fan die hard fan of the character this has aways bothered me.

I won't lie I love BP and read anything I can get my hands on with him in it but his powerset has always been boring to me. If he didn't have other stuff going for him like he does I would've passed by him. I almost did actually.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Wakandan561 on November 10, 2009, 08:45:23 am
I don't think his power set is boring, it's just it has not been utilized as much as it should, even with Shuri as the new Black Panther, you don't see much of her "Panther Abilities".
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 09:01:33 am
Wakandan as explained above it really does not make much sense. I not saying boring, it just does not make sense. But Priest did say the thought his powers were boring, and that is very commonly heard. So Shady is not the only one.

There are characters with Peak Human ability, that don't need anything like a herb to get there. While Marvel says that Panther is on Par with Steve Rogers, his feats are no where near them. Then factor in the fact that even if they are, you get the reaction that Hudlin got. For example, T'challa moving to fast and then throwing Wolverine. But T'challa's feats are not on par. They are not consistant, and folks don't really know his powerset. Some say near/low superhuman, other Peakhuman, etc..etc...this hurts him.

I'm one of the biggerst Black Panther fans. I'm a hugger, even. I admit this. But Daredevil has better feats, Batman has better feats, Batgirl-Cass has better feats, Ironfist has better feats. I can go on and on. We are told how awesome T'challa is but we rearly see it. Then factor in his confusing  and non logical explaination for powers and you have folk being turned off, or readers flat out making every excuses to why he should not be able to do something (limitations), disrepsect of the character and the different double standards that are too many to list right now. These things are part (not all) of why he isn't A-list.

For example, when watching that Panther's Prey episode of Ironman Armored Adventures was great to me because T'challa was doing some amazing things. Dodging Tony attacks, keeping up with A.I.M air craft running, Jumping from building to building with no web  ;D those was awesome feats. Every person I know thought that was awesome. Another example is Jason Aaron's SI arc. That's what's need to get to A-list.



Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: moneyspider on November 10, 2009, 09:13:08 am
What I don't really understand is...why can Spider-Man, who has the powers of a spider, lift 10 tons, but Panther, who has the power of a cat/panther, can only lift 1 ton, even with the upgrade?

Even if it is based on that "proportionate strength of the animal" thing, shouldn't that technically make Panther stronger than Spider-Man?

Shouldn't Panther be able to lift more than 1 ton, since cats are much stronger than spiders?

Or does Spider-Man's radioactive blood have something to do with his 10-ton strength level?
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 09:21:28 am
I don't know. I think if a spider was the size of a Panther then it might be stonger. But not faster, nor more agile. That is what gets me.

If you put a younger child who does not know either character. Spiderman and Black Panther, side by side, some kids would pick T'challa/Black Panther because his black suit looks cool, and ninja like...But the moment powersets are shown or explained...these same kids move straight to Spiderman.

This is what I have seen with my little nephew. So I never listen to the excuse that powersets don't matter. They really do. The visually cool things Spiderman does, hell even Daredevil or Ironfist are what draws folks to the characters.  

We love his personality, but his powerset is still a huge part of the character.
Title: Re: T'challa's Upgrades part III: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 10:04:03 am
Cassandra Cain Who is only peak human. These are here consistant feats.

ďSome of her feats include shattering brick and stone as well as a sword. She has used nerve strikes and pressure points. Dodged bullets even at point blank range and even disarmed a gunman before the bullet can hit her.Ē

Bullet-timing and Disarming
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2532/1017661-875298_batgirl_017_17_super.jpg)


(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2532/1017662-875299_batgirl_017_18_super.jpg)


Quote
ďIn Batgirl #14 the writer, Kelley Puckett, places Cassandra in a position within the story in which her skills are analyzed by a group of government experts. Through this panel, the creative team reveal to the reader that the character is written as having no metagene. Her genetic status was felt to be incompatible with her recorded abilities by one of the experts, however, who stated: "Her individual moves are borderline human. It's her aggregate speed that's metahuman. Look -- humans can throw a 100 miles-per-hour fastball, smash concrete blocks with their heads, and run 4.2 forties. What they can't do is all of that at once. It's not so much physical as... as mentally impossible. Too much to coordinate.Ē
---Kelley Puckett (w), Damion Scott (p), John Lowe (i). Batgirl (14) (May 2001), DC Comics

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2532/746706-batgirl14pg028ok_super.jpg)

More bullet-timing
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/1022184-685135_batgirl13pg03_super_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/2532/685137-batgirl02210116yx_super.jpg)

Showing off speed and fighting skill
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/22021/1018587-batgirlsecretfiles01355ym_super.jpg)


BP does not have any feat even close to these. She is peak human, but the way her powers work is intresting. There is zero reason why T'challa should not be able to pull of feats greater then this.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 11:01:09 am
Quote
"What was even odder, for me, was the uproar of fans outraged by our evolution of the character into an extremely capable and not always clearly heroic figure, a man of uncertainty and mystery who used all of the vast resources at his disposal to accomplish his goals. Cries of heresy went forth from readers who hadn't ever read our book and, more to the point, who likely didn't support BLACK PANTHER in any of the several incarnations of ongoing adventures Marvel has attempted. Expletive-laden rants came in from people who know nothing about Panther, never really bought Panther on any regular basis, and who, frankly, think Panther is lame but who have bought into the severely errant illogic of the dayó the de-evolution of a very clever and very unique character created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Again and again I was asked, "How dare you change Panther!", to which I replied, "I didn't change Pantheró other writers over the years changed Panther, losing sight of FF #52. *I* changed him back."

Now Hudlin and Maberry are going to move them (T'challa and Shuri) foward. ;D
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 10, 2009, 01:39:10 pm
Seven:  <<Tíchalla is one of those rare characters that has pretty much everything, his personality, background, upbringing, iconic outfit and more.  >>

Iconic costume?  BP has one of the most blah, potentially dorkiest costumes in comics, esp on a guy.  Just black leatards with cat ears.  At least the Priest version gave costume some substance.  Without the gold, it's bland. 

No, it has never has it conveyed the idea of a sleek ninja.  Ninjas don't wear tights.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 01:44:53 pm
Seven:  <<Tíchalla is one of those rare characters that has pretty much everything, his personality, background, upbringing, iconic outfit and more.  >>

Iconic costume?  BP has one of the most blah, potentially dorkiest costumes in comics, esp on a guy.  Just black leatards with cat ears.  At least the Priest version gave costume some substance.  Without the gold, it's bland. 

No, it has never has it conveyed the idea of a sleek ninja.  Ninjas don't wear tights.

I'm talking about the Priest version. While Iconic is not the right word, most like his suit.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 10, 2009, 02:29:55 pm
Folks get this ďpeak humanĒ stuff twisted.

There is the characterís stats and there is the characterís position in the Marvel Universe and those are two different things altogether.

As far as the original creators of Black Panther were concerned the Heart Shaped Herb gave made you stronger, faster, and more agile than ordinary men. It also gave you catlike senses(which even the Super Soldier Serum didnít do).

That ainít the issue.

The issue is that for years TíChalla has been defined by two things: the beatdowns he received in his own books courtesy of Don Macgregor(MacGregor had ordinary men doing things to TíChalla like setting him on fire and whatnot) and his affiliation with the Avengers.

If you compare classic TíChalla to Captain America-he can do everything that Captain America can do fighting-wise but he doesnít have a shield-so heís not as good. If you compare classic TíChalla to Iron Man heís just as smart but without any high-tech weaponry so heís not as good as he is either. It doesnít matter how many steel bars TíChalla bends: he hangs around guys who smash thru steel walls heís not gonna look good in comparison. It doesnít matter how many jury-rigged machines Tíchalla is seen hastily building or modifying he was hanging around guys with high tech arsenals.

What set Panther apart from Cap and Shell-Head was that he had no special weapons like they did and he was allowed to get beaten by ordinary joes in his own comic (as written by McGregor) which never happened to either Cap or Shell-Head.

By the time Priest had started writing Black Panther the fans had become used to the idea of him being not those guys equal. Besides Priestís Panther was only selling about 20,000 a month so nobody was really paying attention to all his new toys and attitude. He only rejoined the Avengers briefly-and not long enough to make an impression on fans with his revamp. 

If fans donít see B.P. prowess in relation to the other Avengers it wonít matter as most ignore the book unless they are forced not to (like Civil War gained the book a captive audience for a time).
 

       
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 03:01:42 pm
I can agree with that.

"Peak Human" or Superhuman it does not matter. The thing is you can say just because Cap does it, that means T'challa can...but we never see it. Does not fly. Feat wise, T'challa are very bland, visually and in conception.

Making T'challa and tieing him to Cap is a loss. Comic fandom will never accept it.

Also T'challa does not have the feats of Cap, Daredevil, Ironfist, etc..etc..he just does not. There are things that Cap has done that T'challa has never been seen close doing. Cap doesn't have super eye sight or sense but he does things like this, mean while T'challa with supersense does or is not shown doing such things.

What?
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023158-cap222_super.jpg)
Captain America bullet-timing.
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023154-capspeed1pn6_super.jpg)

Also, McGregor stuff was far better then the stuff from the Avengers. McGregor stuff is from the 70's, it's rare. Most will not ever read his stuff, and Priest said he based his Panther off of McGregor's. When he was with the Avengers, is what killed the character.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 03:11:40 pm
So T'challa with *supersense* ---smell, sight and hearing done this, but Cap has, Ironfist has, Daredevil has.

Now look at Spiderman. This is part of the reason why these characters are more popular.


Bullet-timing feat
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/1018601-51029663yd5_super.jpg)

Still, the explaintion of his powers, need to match the changing of the character. If he was raised from birth as a warror. Then becoming Peakhuman from the herb does not make much sense, or he should have been stronger then Peak human.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 03:25:45 pm
or stuff like this.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023192-bpcapcoc1_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023194-bpcapcoc2_super.jpg)

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 03:49:29 pm
Cap bullettiming
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023214-btcap_super.jpg)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 10, 2009, 04:06:54 pm
Quote
Also, McGregor stuff was far better then the stuff from the Avengers. McGregor stuff is from the 70's, it's rare. Most will not ever read his stuff, and Priest said he based his Panther off of McGregor's. When he was with the Avengers, is what killed the character.

I read the McGregor stuff.

He got tied to a burning cross, he got thrown off of cliffs, he got attacked by dogs,
thrown in barbed wire and had a burning auto tire full of gas chucked at him.

By regular folk.

I have NEVER SEEN a character get his A$$ kicked more in his own book than the McGregor Black Panther.

It was as if Jim Rockford decided to wear a costume and fight crime.

Be that as it may, it's not like folks are going to start reading BP more if he starts catching bullets in his teeth or something like that.  

If you want to make BP an A-Lister you have to bypass comic fans altogether.

A live action movie or long running cartoon (preferably both) will make this whole conversation moot.

After all Blade isn't an A-Lister (in comics) but he's very well known outside of comics.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 04:13:49 pm
I agree with that also. I also agree with you about McGregor Black Panther, but the Avengers series was worst. It had more readers...who unlike you are not a BP fan. This is strickly about comics. Also Blade has animie coming out, so I agree with that point.

More on McGregor Black Panther, there is a lot of things that he brought to the table. Like all the maps of Wakanda, a lot of the cast, the great explaination of the HSH. It's no wonder why Priest used it as referance to BP. While he did get hell, it was still well written, Wakanda was highly advanced, and he still always ended up winning. Avengers on the other hand totally stripped T'challa of everything. Begging for help in a fight to Ironman, Thor or Cap ?

Are you kidding me. This is why Priest was focusing on the Avengers run. A lot more people read Avengers, none Black Panther fans, or people who never seen the character. It would be like T'challa being in NA getting jobbed over by Bendis vs getting jobbed over by Maberry. His book or not, getting Jobbed in the NA would totally kill the character.

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on November 10, 2009, 04:46:26 pm
Quote
Also, McGregor stuff was far better then the stuff from the Avengers. McGregor stuff is from the 70's, it's rare. Most will not ever read his stuff, and Priest said he based his Panther off of McGregor's. When he was with the Avengers, is what killed the character.

I read the McGregor stuff.

He got tied to a burning cross, he got thrown off of cliffs, he got attacked by dogs,
thrown in barbed wire and had a burning auto tire full of gas chucked at him.

By regular folk.

I have NEVER SEEN a character get his A$$ kicked more in his own book than the McGregor Black Panther.

I guess I always took the McGregor stuff with a grain of salt.  The barbed wire and burning tire scenario in Panther's Quest took place less than a month after he actually became the Panther and chalked a lot of it up to real life injuries building up.  I mean, the barbed wire would be enough to put anyone down, but then he basically sucks down tear gas after saving a kid, gets shot because of said tear gas, tears his leg up in a roof, stuck in a bear trap, etc.  After a while, it doesn't matter who you are, that sh!t's gonna slow you down.

I looked at that stuff and times from rest of McGregor's run as something removed from the Marvel Universe, as if this was a real-life human being (with 1970s strength, speed, etc. standards, of course) so I could believe that the possibility of him getting whooped sometimes.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 10, 2009, 06:37:52 pm
Quote
Also, McGregor stuff was far better then the stuff from the Avengers. McGregor stuff is from the 70's, it's rare. Most will not ever read his stuff, and Priest said he based his Panther off of McGregor's. When he was with the Avengers, is what killed the character.

I read the McGregor stuff.

He got tied to a burning cross, he got thrown off of cliffs, he got attacked by dogs,
thrown in barbed wire and had a burning auto tire full of gas chucked at him.

By regular folk.

I have NEVER SEEN a character get his A$$ kicked more in his own book than the McGregor Black Panther.

I guess I always took the McGregor stuff with a grain of salt.  The barbed wire and burning tire scenario in Panther's Quest took place less than a month after he actually became the Panther and chalked a lot of it up to real life injuries building up.  I mean, the barbed wire would be enough to put anyone down, but then he basically sucks down tear gas after saving a kid, gets shot because of said tear gas, tears his leg up in a roof, stuck in a bear trap, etc.  After a while, it doesn't matter who you are, that sh!t's gonna slow you down.

I looked at that stuff and times from rest of McGregor's run as something removed from the Marvel Universe, as if this was a real-life human being (with 1970s strength, speed, etc. standards, of course) so I could believe that the possibility of him getting whooped sometimes.

not only that but a lot more people read T'challa getting totally clowned in the Avengers. where Cap, Ironman or Thor aways had to save him, or the just jumped around.

Also, I hear you about Blade, but I want T'challa to be A-list in comics and with the great public. Nothing less.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: moneyspider on November 11, 2009, 06:14:13 am
I know that Jonathan Maberry said that not everything is measured in how many tons a hero can lift, but perhaps in a few years T'Challa will get another upgrade, where he can lift well beyond one ton.

And if he was able to lift as much as Spider-Man a few years down the road, he would not be a Spider-Man clone because T'Challa is based on a totally different animal. And as I've said before, cats are stronger than spiders, therefore it would make perfect sense if T'Challa possessed the proportionate strengthn speed, agility, senses, etc of a cat, just like Spidey has the proportionate strength of a spider.

And if comic book readers had a problem with that, then we could just point out the "proportionate strength of the animal" thing to them (even though they would probably still come up with excuses). Because if Spider-Man gets his powers that way, then the same can be said of Panther. (Plus I think Stan Lee gave Spidey all those powers because they would look cool visually...not because those spider powers actually made any type of sense).

Anything's possible, right?
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 07:12:30 am
I agree with you and Mr. Maberry.

1 ton is fine to me if that is his base level, while not giving a real limit. A-listers donít have hard line limits. He have a base once in a while they will go beyond that, but most of the time the stay at that level. So 1 ton is what we would see most of the time, but it does not mean he canít max out if he has too.

Look at most of the feats posted; only Spiderman is superhuman. Yet you have Cass, Cap and I have other feats from Peak humans dodging bullets and doing some other things that I have not posted yet. So Tíchalla should be able to out do these feats. He really does not need to be that stronger. Speed is another story. Cass is incredible, she is doing everything that Tíchalla should be able to do.

Look at the feats in this thread. None of these guys are said to lift 1 ton, with the exception of the one scan I showed with Spiderman. T'challa Speed should be what Spiderman is to Strength. He should be able to bullet-time like it's nothing. Meaning after the gun has fired he can still move fast enough to dodge it.

Tíchalla should be superhumanly fast moving with extreme precision and speed because of his physicality and super senses. His stamina should stay at peak human, as well as his durability.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 11, 2009, 07:17:06 am
Proportional strength of a spider vs strength of a panther.

The idea is that insects (even though a spider isn't an insect) can lift several times their body weight so if you expand their size to human, then they can lift "tons".   So Peter can lift an equal amount more than his body weight and somehow that has come to mean 10 tons. 

But you really can't have the prortional strength of a Panther.  A big cats is already the size of a human, (Black Panthers can weigh btwn 115 to 260 lbs) so you wouldn't multiple a cat's strength as it gets bigger.     And no cat can lift 10 tons. So if he had the strength of a Panther, he wouldn't be able to lift more than
the cat could.

However one should point out that the science behind Peter's proportional strength has been argued to be unscientific, so applying real world science logic doesn't work as justification either way.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 07:29:57 am
Proportional strength of a spider vs strength of a panther.

The idea is that insects (even though a spider isn't an insect) can lift several times their body weight so if you expand their size to human, then they can lift "tons".   So Peter can lift an equal amount more than his body weight and somehow that has come to mean 10 tons.  

But you really can't have the prortional strength of a Panther.  A big cats is already the size of a human, (Black Panthers can weigh btwn 115 to 260 lbs) so you wouldn't multiple a cat's strength as it gets bigger.     And no cat can lift 10 tons. So if he had the strength of a Panther, he wouldn't be able to lift more than
the cat could.

However one should point out that the science behind Peter's proportional strength has been argued to be unscientific, so applying real world science logic doesn't work as justification either way.

I agree. Take Spiderman out of it.

1 ton as his base strength is sufficient. Speed and agility is another story. I don't see a spider being more agile then a Panther, or even faster...maybe over a longer distance, but a Panther is quick twitch fast.  I would rather see T'challa upgrade in speed and agility.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 11, 2009, 07:37:22 am
Oh, for Cap; there have been eras in Cap's history where he did have super-strength thru early/mid 70s.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 07:55:13 am
Oh, for Cap; there have been eras in Cap's history where he did have super-strength thru early/mid 70s.

yes, I know. But that scan is not one of them. That is him moving at Peak levels. But I agree, Peak Human, or Superhuman are just fun lables. It's the feats we see that count in my opinion.

Feats are to comics, what punch lines is to rapping.
Feats are to comics, what hitting high notes is to R&B singers.

Title: Black Panther Super Human senses and It uses.
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 08:07:32 am
Letís focus on the use of his super senses; a power he has had since the begining and part of the a gift from the Panther god. This power is always underused or totally misused. If this is what seperates the SSF and the HSH then it should be explored more.

Because of the Heart Shape Herb Tíchalla (and Shuri) should have meticulous perception at all times, noticing to a terrifying degree the minutiae that others miss. A Black Pantherís Sight, Hearing and Smell at superhuman levels used in tandem with centuries to form its uses into a discipline used by all Black Panther should be a force to be reckoned withÖ.

ÖAnd when combined with Tíchalla genius and analytical abilities he can do what he does best, scheme, plan and be 2 to 3 steps ahead of his friend and enemies. Mr. Hudlin showed some of this during Civil War, when Tíchalla stiffed Sue Storm to see if she was lying.

Moreover, they should be able variations in a person's voice and tiny reactions should allow Tíchalla (Shuri)  to deeply understand that person's emotional state, opening the doors for him (or her) manipulate it. Politically this make a ton of sense; all the Black Panthers have a training discipline to use this power, and is maybe part of the reason that the Royal line has lasted this long. It's hard to get over on them.

The Black Panther should be able to detect whether someone is lying by detecting intonation and change in a personís voice, observing and interpreting their body language and analyzing physical signs like pulse and heart rate. So their training of this Panther- super sense-super power with centuries of Wakandan Royal Dynasties Developing this ability this as a treatise would allow them to use it both politically and martially.

Martially, Tíchalla (or Shuri) would be able to see the very slightest movements and slight changes in body language, hear minute changes to a person heart rate, smell fear and/or aggression, hear slight movements like tensing of muscles.

Think ďLie to Me and ďthe MentalistĒ (how the treatise works and the practical use of the powers ) meets Ultraviolet (Use of the powers in action).  

There was a scene in Ultraviolet which shows how super-senses can and should be used. It showed the people looking normal if through the movie goers eyes... then howed the world through her (Ultraviolet who is basically a vampire) eyes, small and hearing. It was totally different, in slow motion you could now see fear, panic, racing heart rates of the people trying to kill her.

(http://www.ivovic.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ultraviolet-scene.jpg)
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7AFUcXlpZqimsM:http://www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2006/6/ultraviolet2.jpg)

That's what this power should be like.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 11, 2009, 08:39:21 am
Super senses--the big challenge for T is that DD is known for hearing (along with the radar sense).  Wolvie is famous for the nose. T would have a harder time staking out that claim.   But no one is really famous for animal eyes.  (Ok, superman is famous for super-vision, but that's another weight class.). But definitely, there is room for T to be known for the eyes.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 08:39:38 am
HUH? Ironfist
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023913-ironfistsmell_super.jpg)

T'challa thunder being stole. You have people with ablities no where close to him doing feats he should be able to perform to a higher level.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 08:42:14 am
Super senses--the big challenge for T is that DD is known for hearing (along with the radar sense).  Wolvie is famous for the nose. T would have a harder time staking out that claim.   But no one is really famous for animal eyes.  (Ok, superman is famous for super-vision, but that's another weight class.). But definitely, there is room for T to be known for the eyes.


I agree, which is why I said in tandem. If the Black Panthers over 100's of years developed a style (Sense-telling) to use the powers, meaning Hearing, Sight and Smell and the practical use of those powers. It would be different then DD with hearing, and Wolverine with smelling.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 11, 2009, 08:45:56 am
One thing about the super-feats in comics is sometimes writers over-write their characters.  Sometimes Spidey or Cap or Wolvie are written stronger, faster than they should be.  That's why I think when figuring out a characters operating power level, you shouldn't focus on the uber feats or the "under-written" feats (ie when the writer makes them weaker than history shows them).  Their power levels should be figured on what you most often see.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 08:51:56 am
One thing about the super-feats in comics is sometimes writers over-write their characters.  Sometimes Spidey or Cap or Wolvie are written stronger, faster than they should be.  That's why I think when figuring out a characters operating power level, you shouldn't focus on the uber feats or the "under-written" feats (ie when the writer makes them weaker than history shows them).  Their power levels should be figured on what you most often see.

I agree, but most of those guys are A-list because of it. These feats are what new fans think of as 'cool'. Also the feat I show with Ironfist isn't a uber-feat. It's well written and makes sense. It's just that I never knew he had supersenses, and it's fine if he has them. My point is T'challa should not be the only hero some how exempted from these 'uber-feats', because the same feats are a huge draw to the *readers*. The rule of cool is a must...

You said this yourself in the Martial Arts thread. Cool visuals trump real life ones.  

BTW, this is part of the Ironfist upgrade. So basically he is almost T'challa. Rich, Peakhuman, Supersenses, Uber MA's, etc..etc..
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 09:09:42 am
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023946-iron_fist_annual_super.jpg)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 09:22:08 am
Catching a plane running after it?
(http://i082.radikal.ru/0909/d5/77f59eab6e86.jpg)

Doging Sniper shot and gets to the sniper
(http://s52.radikal.ru/i137/0905/e3/a8798995c377.jpg)
(http://s56.radikal.ru/i152/0905/80/5f9c60c16198.jpg)

At this point Deadpool is A-list. He has a ton of feats, his personality his huge, but his feats are also.
Title: T''challa sense-telling
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 09:43:34 am
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/767042-superskrullvst_challa.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023973-blackpanther0544444_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023974-blackpanther06222222_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023977-blackpanther0822222_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023981-blackpanther092222_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1023983-blackpanther1022222_super.jpg)

Think ďLie to Me and ďthe MentalistĒ (how the treatise works and the practical use of the powers ) meets Ultraviolet (Use of the powers in action). 
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 11, 2009, 11:12:41 am
One thing about the super-feats in comics is sometimes writers over-write their characters.  Sometimes Spidey or Cap or Wolvie are written stronger, faster than they should be.  That's why I think when figuring out a characters operating power level, you shouldn't focus on the uber feats or the "under-written" feats (ie when the writer makes them weaker than history shows them).  Their power levels should be figured on what you most often see.

I agree, but most of those guys are A-list because of it. These feats are what new fans think of as 'cool'. Also the feat I show with Ironfist isn't a uber-feat. It's well written and makes sense. It's just that I never knew he had supersenses, and it's fine if he has them. My point is T'challa should not be the only hero some how exempted from these 'uber-feats', because the same feats are a huge draw to the *readers*. The rule of cool is a must...

You said this yourself in the Martial Arts thread. Cool visuals trump real life ones.  

BTW, this is part of the Ironfist upgrade. So basically he is almost T'challa. Rich, Peakhuman, Supersenses, Uber MA's, etc..etc..

Most definitely,we should see TChalla integrate ill feats utilizing a combination of all of?his abilities used in new ways...but let's also focus on the things that should make TCHALLA completely unique and introduce completely new options.

For instance: TCHALLA should be the only techno-ka-magic-ubergenius-MA master-monarch and "cape" in all of the MU. Consider the insane amount of options.

Jeph Loeb had Ultimate Panther performing tite combat acrobatics in ULTIMATE CA's ANNUAL.Merge that with the scans and ideas Seven,Vic and others dropped here and the options are nigh limitless. Yep,I said:"nigh" and hell naw I ain't from Asgard.Lol. I mean TCHALLA should be a truly terrifying adversary.Teleporters can't sneak up on him due to his super senses,reflexes and tech. SK shoulda never been able to dominate TCHALLA mentally,as the BP line would have looong been made proof against magic,tech or psi compulsion. That includes rendering useless those discs making TCHORO volitionless in WWH. As I previously stated,I think jonathan needs to have TCHALLA reveal (like CJP BP would have) that TCHALLA does indeed have protocols in place to defeat the efforts of any SK or DOOM type villain to mentally technologically or magically dominate him,so the very fact that SK succeeded in mentally dominating TCHALLA was all TCHALLA needed to accurately surmise that there was a new and terrifying force afoot and in league with both DOOM and SK...TCHALLA would then travel to Latveria in order to set in motion both the unmasking of this new union of evil superpowers (THE CABAL)?and the events which would culminate in DOOMWAR. And the events of DOOMWAR would permanently weaken THE CABAL and permanently remove their ability to successfully threaten Wakanda. From this vantage even Wakanda's unprecedented economic woes would be a weapon used to lull Wakanda's foes into a sense of security enabling TCHALLA to--ahem--AVENGE himself and the rest of the world the more thoroughly. From this vantage TCHALLA wouldn't look like a pompous over arrogant dumbass for walking into Latveria A SECOND TIME with only two chicks with swords to beard DOOM.

Then TCHALLA breaks out all these feats that we've been waitin on all this time and which he uses with vicious surgical precision and unfettered brilliance because TCHALLA's first two visits to Latveria were preps for this battle.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 11:35:34 am
a pompous over arrogant

That should be his biggest weakness.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 11, 2009, 11:46:27 am
If Captain America can dodge bullets why does he have a shield?

DareDevil's radar-sense and hearing could allow him to track the trajectory of a bullet to give him the edge on evading sniper-fire. But flat out dodging bullets is Spider-Man territory.

In the 80's and 90's overenthuastic writers amped the capabilties of thier pet character's way over the top. Woverine and Storm are prime examples of this.

Also every character ideally should have his own unique thing. But it does not always work out that way.

Black Panther, Wolverine, Daredevil, Red Wolf and Tigra ALL have supersenses. DareDevils are just better that everybody elses. Black Panther and Tigra have nightvision and the others dont. Daredevil has radar that almost nobody else has.

But supersenses are Daredevil's THING.

Healing is Wolverine's THING(well that and claws)

Tigra runs around in a bikini and that's all the gimmick she needs (but she can lift 5 tons also)

Red Wolf has an attack wolf(he might have super-strength now too-I can't remember)

If it were up to me Black Panther's thing would be his high tech arsenal.

The others can't match that. Give him strength and there are stronger guys out there. Same with speed.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 11:51:25 am
Isn't that Tony Stark's (the weapon designer) and Reeds thing? Also those scans, most of them ARE NOT FROM THE 80'S OR 90'S...they are recent.

And DD only has Hearing and Smell with Rader. Why is it an issue that T'challa and Shuri use there senses..when you have Cap, and Ironfist doing the same things. You also have DD fliping cars, and dodging bullets...isn't that Spiderman's thing? You have Cap doing it, Ironfist doing it, Deadpool doing it all current... Spiderman should not have a monopoly on dodging bullets.

Why is it that Black Panther is the only hero that needs all these limitations? So just because DD has supersenses he can't be shown to use his? Mean while, other A-list heroes will continue to do "their thing" and more.

There could be stronger and faster people, and there will be. That is besides the point. T'challa was 'supposed' to be on par with Steve Rogers. Everything except Spiderman are peak human feats...T'challa was peak human, and Shuri is now. So why is it that they should not be allowed to do what other A-list heroes do?

Also is not about matching what others can do, clearly you can see from this thread that is not the case. It also should not be the case for the Black Panther(s)....T'challa and Shuri.  

T'challa should be able to see and hear the triggler about to be pulled.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 11:55:13 am
Quote
If Captain America can dodge bullets why does he have a shield?

Because you can't block everything with a shield. Also it's COOL. It looks cool.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 12:07:27 pm
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1024092-daredevilfl_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1024093-daredevilfl2_super.jpg)

DD flipping a limo with people in it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 11, 2009, 01:15:53 pm
Healing is Wolverine's THING(well that and claws)
??? Really, hmmm



What about ....
Deadpool?
Daken?
X-23?
Sabretooth? and many more.

So you have to be kidding me?
You are viewing and debating something that I am not. I am not talking about 'gimmicks', but the execution of powers on panel, the feats of the characters who have those powers. I'm talking about T'challa supposedly being on par with Steve Rogers, but his feats are no where close to him (Mr. Hudlin did give us some finally).  I don't care who is this or that.

I'm talking about the practical uses of these powers...powers that he has had since he was created. He has *always* had these powersÖwhy shouldnít he be able to use themÖwhile other heroes do likewise?

To me that doesnít make much sense. You said something about high tech arsenal. I agreeÖaccording to JM design for the Armor that Nílix built for Shuri, come from T'challa's blue print. He has that, and should have that...But by your own logic T'challa should not show it..., it's Armor and only Tony should have armor. Tony Stark, Pym, and Reed all have feats with tech that is highly advanced. All of them have high tech arsenals, and Tony Stark is a weapon designer. So that is his thing...to me it like So what, that has nothing to do with Tíchalla, period. T'challa is also a genius weapon designer, as is Pym and Reed. There is no reason to limit a characters ability is they are show to have it. It might not be a focus, but they still have it. T'challa supersense have always been there.

Likewise for physical feats that he should be able to perform. Just because Spiderman can dodge this and that, that doesnít mean DD should not be able too. It does not mean that T'challa can't. A-listers donít have these limitations. That is really not up for debate as you can see from these scans.

Btw, Deadpool healing factor is FAR greater then Wolverineís and Deadpool is the new it (he is A-list). Notice how Wolverine Ďhealing thingí did not stop Deadpool from doing Deadpool. So NO ONE should stop Tíchalla from doing Tíchalla. That is all I am saying. No limitations and better explanations. ;D

I respect your opinion though. Still,  I am just a firm believer that Tíchalla does not have to be watered down just because another hero does something well; mean while these same heroes are not watered down and use their powers to the fullest, no mater another character does or not. If its a part of the character they should use it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: moneyspider on November 11, 2009, 02:04:26 pm
Kip said: "Proportional strength of a spider vs strength of a panther.

The idea is that insects (even though a spider isn't an insect) can lift several times their body weight so if you expand their size to human, then they can lift "tons".   So Peter can lift an equal amount more than his body weight and somehow that has come to mean 10 tons. 

But you really can't have the prortional strength of a Panther.  A big cats is already the size of a human, (Black Panthers can weigh btwn 115 to 260 lbs) so you wouldn't multiple a cat's strength as it gets bigger.     And no cat can lift 10 tons. So if he had the strength of a Panther, he wouldn't be able to lift more than
the cat could."


Ah, okay. From your explanation, it makes perfect sense to me now. Whew. For a while there, I was thinking T'Challa was still getting short-changed in the strength department.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: jonathanmaberry on November 12, 2009, 11:56:11 am
I'll say it again: it's isn't a matter of how strong a person is, it's all a matter of how it's used. 

In DoomWar we're going to see what happens with T'Challa and Shuri cut loose.  And I mean really cut loose.  The last two pages of DoomWarm #1 are going to #$^%-ing blow you away....and that's just the first issue.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 12, 2009, 12:20:41 pm
T'challa agrees.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025060-hisspeed_super.jpg)
BTW, this thread is not about Black Panther creators. From Priest, Hudlin and Aaron to your work we know we have nothing to worry about.

Title: senses
Post by: Seven on November 12, 2009, 12:25:49 pm
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025055-supersenes3_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025056-greattracker_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025054-supersenses_super.jpg)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 12, 2009, 03:25:19 pm
I'll say it again: it's isn't a matter of how strong a person is, it's all a matter of how it's used. 

In DoomWar we're going to see what happens with T'Challa and Shuri cut loose.  And I mean really cut loose.  The last two pages of DoomWarm #1 are going to #$^%-ing blow you away....and that's just the first issue.

Hell to the damn gyeah!!!
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 13, 2009, 09:19:58 am
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025979-btimingbp_super.jpg)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: stanleyballard on November 13, 2009, 09:35:16 am
Another step toward A list would be to give him his own villain....Kilmonger is one of his known villains who he has always had problems defeating....Klaw is another problematic villain he has to tangle with and he needs more in his rogues gallery.  Dr. Doom is technically a FF villain who is now widely used but King T'Challa needs someone to call his own pain in his side who he has to fight in order for him to gain A list status.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 13, 2009, 09:45:31 am
Agreed totally, but that is tricky also.

Doomwar could turn Doom into a Black Panther villian (second only to FF). I think they need to use a mix of newer characters in tandem with A-list to do this. So having Victor hate T'challa second to only his hate of Reed is not bad.

I think that the Red Skull is also a A-list villian that should factor in the mix.
Hydra and A.I.M, Sons of the Serpant...you could make bad ass characters that are members of these organizations...that could end up getting used in other books also.

The Broker is great..I like that dude.

Moses Magnum and Killmonger (bring him back) should both take over counties in Africa (made up ones). This will give that political feel to the whole book.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 09:12:58 am
For those who have issue with the 1 ton level of strength...someone that is comparable.

The Gorgon ( Tomi Shishido) has 1 ton level strength at his max strength level. This guy is bad ass...so T'challa being on par with him is pretty awesome.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/728090-gorgon_large.png)

This is a battle I want to see one day.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: jonathanmaberry on November 16, 2009, 11:20:14 am
Another step toward A list would be to give him his own villain....Kilmonger is one of his known villains who he has always had problems defeating....Klaw is another problematic villain he has to tangle with and he needs more in his rogues gallery.  Dr. Doom is technically a FF villain who is now widely used but King T'Challa needs someone to call his own pain in his side who he has to fight in order for him to gain A list status.

The Wakandan Royals will have new villains and new allies once the series resumes following DoomWar.  And...Doom is no longer an FF villain.  Far as I'm concerned he's earned the eternal hatred of the Wakandan Royals.  There are some things that can't be covered by 'forgive and forget'.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 11:23:22 am
Another step toward A list would be to give him his own villain....Kilmonger is one of his known villains who he has always had problems defeating....Klaw is another problematic villain he has to tangle with and he needs more in his rogues gallery.  Dr. Doom is technically a FF villain who is now widely used but King T'Challa needs someone to call his own pain in his side who he has to fight in order for him to gain A list status.

The Wakandan Royals will have new villains and new allies once the series resumes following DoomWar.  And...Doom is no longer an FF villain.  Far as I'm concerned he's earned the eternal hatred of the Wakandan Royals.  There are some things that can't be covered by 'forgive and forget'.

Thank you. This is SMART on Marvel's part. Very, very smart...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 01:49:49 pm
Eaton on T'challa.



Quote
Currently, everything I mentioned earlier about Doom is now true about T'Challa...(Doom is accoring to Eaton: He's powerful, a Reed Richards level genius that has mastered technology and magic)

...Now, he and Jonathan have added this spiritual power level, and his sights are set clearly on Doom

Nice.

So far we know
1) T'challa has 1 ton level strength at least.
2) T'challa can absorb magic
3) T'challa is going to be extremely fast and agile (moreso then before, and if this holds true, T'challa was already noted as being the fastest human mortal/human with Steve Rogers in the room during a avengers issue where T'challa spared with the Forgoten One- Gilgamesh in Avengers v1 #305.)

Awesome!!! ;D
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 16, 2009, 04:10:09 pm
Eaton on T'challa.



Quote
Currently, everything I mentioned earlier about Doom is now true about T'Challa...(Doom is accoring to Eaton: He's powerful, a Reed Richards level genius that has mastered technology and magic)

...Now, he and Jonathan have added this spiritual power level, and his sights are set clearly on Doom

Nice.

So far we know
1) T'challa has 1 ton level strength at least.
2) T'challa can absorb magic
3) T'challa is going to be extremely fast and agile (moreso then before, and if this holds true, T'challa was already noted as being the fastest human mortal/human with Steve Rogers in the room during a avengers issue where T'challa spared with the Forgoten One- Gilgamesh in Avengers v1 #305.)

Awesome!!! ;D

Whooooaaa I didn't know that MARVEL gave TCHALLA those porops! They're LOONG overdue AND YOU CAN BET THAT OUR DAWG JONATHAN IS GONNA PLAY ON THAT ONE FOR REAL! i LOOOVE THIS JOINT!

bUT AGAIN...HOW ARE THE SALES DOING? i EXPECT IT TO BE ABOUT 2-3 ARCS INTO JONATHAN'S RUN WHEN WE STABILIZE AT SAY 35-40k
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 16, 2009, 04:26:23 pm
JM:  <<And...Doom is no longer an FF villain.  Far as I'm concerned he's earned the eternal hatred of the Wakandan Royals.  There are some things that can't be covered by 'forgive and forget'.>>

X-men???  Storm forgave and forgot the woman who mind-raped and nearly killed one of her best friends and then chose the mind-rapist over the friend.  And around she welcomes Magneto into her home.  Just give the X-house a moment and they will have Doom join the X-men and Storm will welcome him.

But sorry, even if the Wakandans hate Doom more than Reed (which isn't hard, because Reed never hated Doom.), Doom is THE FF enemy.  Until you change that in the minds of FF fans, in the minds of the general culture and in the minds of the marketing dept, (and most importantly) in the mind of Stan Lee, he is The FF villain. 
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on November 16, 2009, 04:48:52 pm
JM:  <<And...Doom is no longer an FF villain.  Far as I'm concerned he's earned the eternal hatred of the Wakandan Royals.  There are some things that can't be covered by 'forgive and forget'.>>

X-men???  Storm forgave and forgot the woman who mind-raped and nearly killed one of her best friends and then chose the mind-rapist over the friend.  And around she welcomes Magneto into her home.  Just give the X-house a moment and they will have Doom join the X-men and Storm will welcome him.

But sorry, even if the Wakandans hate Doom more than Reed (which isn't hard, because Reed never hated Doom.), Doom is THE FF enemy.  Until you change that in the minds of FF fans, in the minds of the general culture and in the minds of the marketing dept, (and most importantly) in the mind of Stan Lee, he is The FF villain. 

Well,I think that DOOM will simply NOT BE SOLELY the FF villain,although he'll probably ETERNALLY REMAIN THE FF'S #1 VILLAIN.Unless TChalla kills him.Lol.Hell,STORM may kill him
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 16, 2009, 05:24:33 pm
JM:  <<And...Doom is no longer an FF villain.  Far as I'm concerned he's earned the eternal hatred of the Wakandan Royals.  There are some things that can't be covered by 'forgive and forget'.>>

X-men???  Storm forgave and forgot the woman who mind-raped and nearly killed one of her best friends and then chose the mind-rapist over the friend.  And around she welcomes Magneto into her home.  Just give the X-house a moment and they will have Doom join the X-men and Storm will welcome him.

But sorry, even if the Wakandans hate Doom more than Reed (which isn't hard, because Reed never hated Doom.), Doom is THE FF enemy.  Until you change that in the minds of FF fans, in the minds of the general culture and in the minds of the marketing dept, (and most importantly) in the mind of Stan Lee, he is The FF villain. 

Well,I think that DOOM will simply NOT BE SOLELY the FF villain,although he'll probably ETERNALLY REMAIN THE FF'S #1 VILLAIN.Unless TChalla kills him.Lol.Hell,STORM may kill him

Kill him?  Been there; done that.  If the Brimestone can't stop him, even an execution isn't enough.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 09:27:48 pm
KIP I disagree. FF fans don't run marvel. Pure and simple.  If Klaw is the BP villian...and FF villian then Doom can be FF villian and BP villian. After all T'challa is not only a member of the FF, but comes from the FF family.

Also change happens... Doom really hates T'challa. That's cannon now...he tried to KILL HIM. So regardless of all the comic rules about this and that...if Marvel is going to push Doom as a T'challa rival also, instead of the same old, same old Reed vs Doom, a lot of folk would be all for it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on November 16, 2009, 10:54:20 pm
For those who have issue with the 1 ton level of strength...someone that is comparable.

The Gorgon ( Tomi Shishido) has 1 ton level strength at his max strength level. This guy is bad ass...so T'challa being on par with him is pretty awesome.

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26948/728090-gorgon_large.png[/url])

This is a battle I want to see one day.


What is he from?  I've heard mention of him before, but I don't know anything about him.  ???
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 11:12:20 pm
He is a member of Hydra and the Hand (Japanís version).
He is mutant with near superhuman levels of intelligence
He has the ability to transform an individual to stone by making eye contact with them
He has telepathic abilities
He has accelerated healing factor
He was upgraded to having...
enhanced strength (1 ton)
Superhuman speed, reflexes/reaction, agility, dexterity, coordination and endurance


Dude is a beastÖ

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 16, 2009, 11:15:19 pm
One thing I would love to see from T'challa is being able to perform bursts of speed that, at least over short distances would make him too fast to see.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025057-bullettime_super.jpg)

Look at what T'challa says...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: stanleyballard on November 17, 2009, 05:56:07 am
Think Gorgon fought Wolverine a year or so ago ...he died & was resurrected also.  He was in one of the long story arcs a while back in Wolverine's book and they had to fight...he is very tough.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 06:08:16 am
yah...he is also currently in Secret Warriors...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 17, 2009, 07:36:05 am
KIP I disagree. FF fans don't run marvel. Pure and simple.  If Klaw is the BP villian...and FF villian then Doom can be FF villian and BP villian. After all T'challa is not only a member of the FF, but comes from the FF family.

Also change happens... Doom really hates T'challa. That's cannon now...he tried to KILL HIM. So regardless of all the comic rules about this and that...if Marvel is going to push Doom as a T'challa rival also, instead of the same old, same old Reed vs Doom, a lot of folk would be all for it.

Until a writer like Mark Waid or Geoff Johns orÖ hell any name guy takes over the Fantastic Four again and asks (or demands) that the classic baddies be restored to his book.

Frank Miller was only able to poach Kingpin to Daredevil away from the Spider-Man books because the Kingpin is third-tier and nobody cared if he got took.  Same thing with Klaw. It mattered little if Klaw got permanently poached from Fantastic Four to Black Panther because Klaw is a third-tier FF baddie.

Now Doom is sort of the general arch villain for the entire Marvel Universe which is why everybody can use him. But while Doctor Doom may become a semi-regular sparring partner for TíChalla and the gang, that will end when the F.F. gets a writer with pull on it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 07:47:27 am
Just like Millar right? He's a pretty big writer, and it seems his Doom story is going to get ignored or retconned. Doom was also used by pretty much all over during DR.

So, while I don't disagree with your point;  it still doesn't invalidate T'challa using Doom. Maybe a big writer would get his wish, but at the same time if marvel are trying to improve other characters...like t'challa then they would support it...like they are doing so right now.

For example Doom being in War of the Hulks, Siege, and Doomwar. It still makes sence on marvel part to use Doom (like they are now) to build T''challa and cast up. That rivalry will help that...so Doomwar is part of a status quo change, the start of a huge rivalry that will only be second to his with Reed.

Btw. I also consider Both Mr. Hudlin and Mr. Maberry big writers... While JM might be new to writing comic books, he is a huge novelist...his Patient Zero is nothing short of awesome.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 08:43:54 am
From Cup O Joe with Kiel Pegley (CBR) a few weeks ago.

Quote
Kiel Phegley: User Steven Ghost was connecting the dots between some of the newly announced projects when he asked, "With Doom's role in the Cabal, will 'Siege' and 'DoomWar' have any relation to each other, or will they be completely separate stories?"

Joe Quesada: The simple answer, Steven Ghost, is that the story told in "DoomWar" continues the story that began in ďDark Reign," culminating with Dr. Doom's attempted assassination of T'Challa and his role in overthrowing that kingdom. In "DoomWar," some of Marvel's biggest heroes say, ďEnough is enough," and team up to take him on. It's two Black Panthers, the X-Men and the FF on one side; Doom and his arsenal on the other. Oh yeah, and throw the lunatic known as Deadpool into the mix, stir and enjoy.

Kiel Phegley: And on the topic of "DoomWar," we had a lot of people happy to see Black Panther at the center of a Marvel event, but a few people were asking about that character's long term team status, including Comicbookfan who asked, "Hey Joe when T'Challa gets better any chance of him joining an Avengers Team? Hopefully Mighty Avengers. I read Geoff Johns' Run on 'Avengers' and he used Panther quite well. So with a Panther watching over Wakanda any chance of T'Challa and Storm spending some time on an Avengers Team?"

Joe Quesada: The idea of T'Challa or Shuri or both joining one of Marvel's elite super-teams is not out of the question. Comicbookfan. "DoomWar," which will see them fight alongside the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and Deadpool, will definitely show both of them the merits of working on a team

Good thing or bad????
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 17, 2009, 09:38:15 am
From Cup O Joe with Kiel Pegley (CBR) a few weeks ago.

Quote
Kiel Phegley: User Steven Ghost was connecting the dots between some of the newly announced projects when he asked, "With Doom's role in the Cabal, will 'Siege' and 'DoomWar' have any relation to each other, or will they be completely separate stories?"

Joe Quesada: The simple answer, Steven Ghost, is that the story told in "DoomWar" continues the story that began in ďDark Reign," culminating with Dr. Doom's attempted assassination of T'Challa and his role in overthrowing that kingdom. In "DoomWar," some of Marvel's biggest heroes say, ďEnough is enough," and team up to take him on. It's two Black Panthers, the X-Men and the FF on one side; Doom and his arsenal on the other. Oh yeah, and throw the lunatic known as Deadpool into the mix, stir and enjoy.

Kiel Phegley: And on the topic of "DoomWar," we had a lot of people happy to see Black Panther at the center of a Marvel event, but a few people were asking about that character's long term team status, including Comicbookfan who asked, "Hey Joe when T'Challa gets better any chance of him joining an Avengers Team? Hopefully Mighty Avengers. I read Geoff Johns' Run on 'Avengers' and he used Panther quite well. So with a Panther watching over Wakanda any chance of T'Challa and Storm spending some time on an Avengers Team?"

Joe Quesada: The idea of T'Challa or Shuri or both joining one of Marvel's elite super-teams is not out of the question. Comicbookfan. "DoomWar," which will see them fight alongside the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and Deadpool, will definitely show both of them the merits of working on a team

Good thing or bad????

It couldnít hurt if TíChalla, Storm or Shuri were to join the Avengers (or if TíChalla joined the X-Men for that matter).

PROS: If Bendisí Avengers is the A-List team (in character popularity terms) it makes sense to put Storm and TíChalla or Shuri on the same team that Captain America, Wolverine and Spider-Man are on. They need to be with the other A-listers.   

If you want fans to take notice of Shuri or TíChalla they have to appear in books other than their own title. That book doesnít have to be the Avengers. TíChalla could join the X-Men. Doc Nemesis isnít a mutant either but heís on Beastís science team on the X-men. There could be a similar reason for TíChalla being there. Appearing in two monthly books gives the character twice as much exposure (considering the higher circulation of the team books its really 3 times as much exposure).

CONS: Storm and TíChalla or Shuri are gong to be third wheels in any team book they appear in. Why? The point of New Avengers is to give Spidey, Logan, Cage and Cap cool lines to spout. Everything else is secondary. Once Spidey, Logan, Cage and Cap have said their lines everybody else gets dialogue. Same with the X-Men: only its Logan, Cyke and Emma who are the stars of those books. Oh theyíll participate all right but donít expect them to be the stars of the team books they appear in.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on November 17, 2009, 10:57:47 am
From Cup O Joe with Kiel Pegley (CBR) a few weeks ago.

Quote
Kiel Phegley: User Steven Ghost was connecting the dots between some of the newly announced projects when he asked, "With Doom's role in the Cabal, will 'Siege' and 'DoomWar' have any relation to each other, or will they be completely separate stories?"

Joe Quesada: The simple answer, Steven Ghost, is that the story told in "DoomWar" continues the story that began in ďDark Reign," culminating with Dr. Doom's attempted assassination of T'Challa and his role in overthrowing that kingdom. In "DoomWar," some of Marvel's biggest heroes say, ďEnough is enough," and team up to take him on. It's two Black Panthers, the X-Men and the FF on one side; Doom and his arsenal on the other. Oh yeah, and throw the lunatic known as Deadpool into the mix, stir and enjoy.

Kiel Phegley: And on the topic of "DoomWar," we had a lot of people happy to see Black Panther at the center of a Marvel event, but a few people were asking about that character's long term team status, including Comicbookfan who asked, "Hey Joe when T'Challa gets better any chance of him joining an Avengers Team? Hopefully Mighty Avengers. I read Geoff Johns' Run on 'Avengers' and he used Panther quite well. So with a Panther watching over Wakanda any chance of T'Challa and Storm spending some time on an Avengers Team?"

Joe Quesada: The idea of T'Challa or Shuri or both joining one of Marvel's elite super-teams is not out of the question. Comicbookfan. "DoomWar," which will see them fight alongside the X-Men, the Fantastic Four and Deadpool, will definitely show both of them the merits of working on a team

Good thing or bad????

It couldnít hurt if TíChalla, Storm or Shuri were to join the Avengers (or if TíChalla joined the X-Men for that matter).

PROS: If Bendisí Avengers is the A-List team (in character popularity terms) it makes sense to put Storm and TíChalla or Shuri on the same team that Captain America, Wolverine and Spider-Man are on. They need to be with the other A-listers.   

If you want fans to take notice of Shuri or TíChalla they have to appear in books other than their own title. That book doesnít have to be the Avengers. TíChalla could join the X-Men. Doc Nemesis isnít a mutant either but heís on Beastís science team on the X-men. There could be a similar reason for TíChalla being there. Appearing in two monthly books gives the character twice as much exposure (considering the higher circulation of the team books its really 3 times as much exposure).

CONS: Storm and TíChalla or Shuri are gong to be third wheels in any team book they appear in. Why? The point of New Avengers is to give Spidey, Logan, Cage and Cap cool lines to spout. Everything else is secondary. Once Spidey, Logan, Cage and Cap have said their lines everybody else gets dialogue. Same with the X-Men: only its Logan, Cyke and Emma who are the stars of those books. Oh theyíll participate all right but donít expect them to be the stars of the team books they appear in.


Faction made him a mutant in Uncanny X-Men # 512, So now hes a mutant now, Dr.Kavita Rao isn't a mutant & she in Beast X-Club/Science team...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 11:14:15 am
So how about a new Avengers Team?

Dark Avengers has at times out sold NA.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 17, 2009, 11:20:48 am
Doc Nemesis is a mutant now? ::)

Being an arrogant genius with a hypodermic fetish wasn't enough?

On second thought I don't want T'Challa nowhere NEAR the X-Men.

They'll make a Cat-man mutate out of him within six months....
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 11:25:14 am
Doc Nemesis is a mutant now? ::)

Being an arrogant genius with a hypodermic fetish wasn't enough?

On second thought I don't want T'Challa nowhere NEAR the X-Men.

They'll make a Cat-man mutate out of him within six months....
LOL.

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on November 17, 2009, 12:15:54 pm
Doc Nemesis is a mutant now? ::)

Being an arrogant genius with a hypodermic fetish wasn't enough?

On second thought I don't want T'Challa nowhere NEAR the X-Men.

They'll make a Cat-man mutate out of him within six months....


Yes lol

http://www.comicvine.com/dr-james-bradley/29-29259/

http://marvel.wikia.com/James_Bradley_%28Earth-616%29
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on November 17, 2009, 12:31:55 pm
So how about a new Avengers Team?

Dark Avengers has at times out sold NA.

A all new team? or the New Avengers?


Ill put it this way I'd prefer them play third fiddles to Steve, Cage, & etc than play play second fiddles To Henry Hank ''Scientist Supreme'' Pym (An this coming from some one who like Pym lol).. I see him it now... They doing to TíChalla what they did to Beast when he join the Avengers. By that I mean so how lose about 20 plus IQ points. Playing 2nd to Hank Pym is NOT a gud look IMO..

So Id prefer them Storm & T'Challa be on the New Avengers. They one time I remember BMB writing T'Challa he didn't dumb him down.. 

Maybe Shuri can join MA.. Aslong as they don't hook her up with Pym..
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: jonathanmaberry on November 17, 2009, 01:13:32 pm
Sorry...let me rephrase that:  "Doom is no longer the FF's exclusive property.  Reed may have hated him longer, but T'Challa has lost more to him, and his family is never going to let Doom skate."
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 01:52:12 pm
So how about a new Avengers Team?

Dark Avengers has at times out sold NA.


A all new team? or the New Avengers?


Ill put it this way I'd prefer them play third fiddles to Steve, Cage, & etc than play play second fiddles To Henry Hank ''Scientist Supreme'' Pym (An this coming from some one who like Pym lol).. I see him it now... They doing to TíChalla what they did to Beast when he join the Avengers. By that I mean so how lose about 20 plus IQ points. Playing 2nd to Hank Pym is NOT a gud look IMO..

So Id prefer them Storm & T'Challa be on the New Avengers. They one time I remember BMB writing T'Challa he didn't dumb him down.. 

Maybe Shuri can join MA.. Aslong as they don't hook her up with Pym..


Well Johns had pretty much that cast...and T'challa was playing second fiddle to no one. He was part of the Big 4 (Cap, Ironman, Thor)... Marvel should have never let him get away to DC.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030612-bromance1_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030613-bromance2_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030614-bromance3_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030615-bromance4_super.jpg)
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030616-bromance5_super.jpg)

 ;D
OLIVIER COIPEL draws a great T'challa.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Shade on November 17, 2009, 02:17:25 pm
Now that's the costume I like to always see T' Challa in instead of the bland plain one.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 02:27:38 pm
I know...but then I kind of thing he should only wear it once and a while. Like Doomwar ;D
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on November 17, 2009, 02:32:30 pm
So how about a new Avengers Team?

Dark Avengers has at times out sold NA.


A all new team? or the New Avengers?


Ill put it this way I'd prefer them play third fiddles to Steve, Cage, & etc than play play second fiddles To Henry Hank ''Scientist Supreme'' Pym (An this coming from some one who like Pym lol).. I see him it now... They doing to T’Challa what they did to Beast when he join the Avengers. By that I mean so how lose about 20 plus IQ points. Playing 2nd to Hank Pym is NOT a gud look IMO..

So Id prefer them Storm & T'Challa be on the New Avengers. They one time I remember BMB writing T'Challa he didn't dumb him down.. 

Maybe Shuri can join MA.. Aslong as they don't hook her up with Pym..


Well Johns had pretty much that cast...and T'challa was playing second fiddle to no one. He was part of the Big 4 (Cap, Ironman, Thor)... Marvel should have never let him get away to DC.

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030612-bromance1_super.jpg[/url])
([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030613-bromance2_super.jpg[/url])
([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030614-bromance3_super.jpg[/url])
([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030615-bromance4_super.jpg[/url])
([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1030616-bromance5_super.jpg[/url])

 ;D
OLIVIER COIPEL draws a great T'challa.



Very cool... When I get some extra money I'll prob. by this story line... 8)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 17, 2009, 02:37:19 pm
Redzone was a really underrated storyline.

The Avengers take on a Tom Clancy-like bioweapon threat. Usually you dont see The Avengers used in semi realistic stories of this type.

Not only does Panther get love in this story (like Seven has shown) but the Falcon does too.

If you can pick it up in trade i'd recommend it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 17, 2009, 02:58:00 pm
Yes he Does...the Falcon got major love...not some side character. This is my favorite Avengers story.
Tom Foster also gets love (R.I.P). He is not giant man...but a lead scientist at CDC. They should have just left him there.
Title: Re: Black Panther Super Human senses and It uses.
Post by: Seven on November 18, 2009, 03:00:20 pm
Letís focus on the use of his super senses; a power he has had since the begining and part of the a gift from the Panther god. This power is always underused or totally misused. If this is what seperates the SSF and the HSH then it should be explored more.

Because of the Heart Shape Herb Tíchalla (and Shuri) should have meticulous perception at all times, noticing to a terrifying degree the minutiae that others miss. A Black Pantherís Sight, Hearing and Smell at superhuman levels used in tandem with centuries to form its uses into a discipline used by all Black Panther should be a force to be reckoned withÖ.

ÖAnd when combined with Tíchalla genius and analytical abilities he can do what he does best, scheme, plan and be 2 to 3 steps ahead of his friend and enemies. Mr. Hudlin showed some of this during Civil War, when Tíchalla stiffed Sue Storm to see if she was lying.

Moreover, they should be able variations in a person's voice and tiny reactions should allow Tíchalla (Shuri)  to deeply understand that person's emotional state, opening the doors for him (or her) manipulate it. Politically this make a ton of sense; all the Black Panthers have a training discipline to use this power, and is maybe part of the reason that the Royal line has lasted this long. It's hard to get over on them.

The Black Panther should be able to detect whether someone is lying by detecting intonation and change in a personís voice, observing and interpreting their body language and analyzing physical signs like pulse and heart rate. So their training of this Panther- super sense-super power with centuries of Wakandan Royal Dynasties Developing this ability this as a treatise would allow them to use it both politically and martially.

Martially, Tíchalla (or Shuri) would be able to see the very slightest movements and slight changes in body language, hear minute changes to a person heart rate, smell fear and/or aggression, hear slight movements like tensing of muscles.

Think ďLie to Me and ďthe MentalistĒ (how the treatise works and the practical use of the powers ) meets Ultraviolet (Use of the powers in action).  

There was a scene in Ultraviolet which shows how super-senses can and should be used. It showed the people looking normal if through the movie goers eyes... then howed the world through her (Ultraviolet who is basically a vampire) eyes, small and hearing. It was totally different, in slow motion you could now see fear, panic, racing heart rates of the people trying to kill her.

([url]http://www.ivovic.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ultraviolet-scene.jpg[/url])
([url]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7AFUcXlpZqimsM:http://www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2006/6/ultraviolet2.jpg[/url])

That's what this power should be like.


(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1031417-ff06_super.jpg)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 18, 2009, 08:05:54 pm
JM<< jonathanmaberry:Sorry...let me rephrase that:  "Doom is no longer the FF's exclusive property.  Reed may have hated him longer, but T'Challa has lost more to him, and his family is never going to let Doom skate." >>

Definitely can see that, but I don't think Reed has ever hated Doom; pities him yes, but not hate. 

Though I think there is an interesting difference between the two relationships.

Doom sees T as a rival, a barrier to his plans.  So, he will simply  kill T with a blast.

Reed is different.  Doom doesn't see Reed in the same light.  Doom doesn't need to beat Reed, he needs Reed to say, "Master, you are smarter than me.". That is why Doom will never try to kill Reed like he did T.  He makes traps to prove his superiority.  Doom needs Reed's acknowledgement, where he doesn't feel the need to prove anything to T.

(Of course this gives T'challa a great advantage.  To throw Doom off his game, all he has to say is, "Reed would have built a better trap.". Doom will lose it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 20, 2009, 09:19:29 am
First, before you read this, please note that some may take offense to the quote below. This person is a racist and a bigot. This is just one example of him posting nonsense. The sad part is when you see others agreeing with this nonsense. I believe personally that there is a huge group of comic readers who feel this way. Not in this manner(being racist), but their view of the character.

This is why I made this thread. Why my first post on this board was about T'challa needing a upgrade... that is clearly explained and enforced...being critical to him becoming A-list.

For whatever reason, T'challa fighting people and beating them who are shown to be more powerful does not fly in the same way that Batman does it. I mean, Batman is seen as badass because he is human and can beat on metahumans, including punch out Superman. That = Bruce being badass...for T'challa though it's totally different. Even Dwayne McDuffie said that on this very board. For some reason when it comes to T'challa, it's not acceptable.

So this is why fans who see the same things are big on him just being upgraded. as a means to finally get past this nonsense.

Quote
I'm not just talking about fights. Although there are several characters he has either screwed over or been mismatched with [Surfer, Wolverine, Karnak, Super Skrulls, Iron Man, Zombies etc]. Its also that he gets elevated to some kind of bad man status in terms of interactions. His nation is isolationist. It means nothing. So why would he be anything in diplomatic circles? Its things like putting him on a level with Doom, Illuminati, Blackbolt, Heralds. He shouldn't be in stories with these people unless its him getting owned.   What i was getting at with the Frogs and tech was that its a get out of jail free card like Batman with his various crap. It further compounds the Affirmative Action. It lets them put him in ridiculous situations against people so they can boost his profile and have a way out with some cruddy plot device, rather than making him fight people in his own league and win in an understandable way.Those pictures also reminded me of how they seemsto elevate his personality over others. When has Karnak ever been cocky like that? Thats just not in his character. Why is he made out to seem an idiot just because he is going up against BP? Same sort of thing in Civil War. Rhodes was made to look like some Uncle Tom House Negro whilst Black Panther became Black incarnate. Whats that about?   BP is always being elevated at the expense of others, just to make a black hero seem on par with white characters. Which is a shame.  "

Again, he's a moron, but there are a lot of morons...some are those who are not as idiotic, but just don't respect the character because of his powerlevel. They don't take the character serious and write the character off when he does something grand.

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: CKW on November 20, 2009, 10:24:35 am
Where was T'Challa's first appearance in comics? What did he do in his first appearance in comics? The moment he bested the FF he earned the right to run in their league. You cannot be elevated to a position when you are already there. They forgot that so Priest and Hudlin had to remind them.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 20, 2009, 10:39:12 am
Where was T'Challa's first appearance in comics? What did he do in his first appearance in comics? The moment he bested the FF he earned the right to run in their league. You cannot be elevated to a position when you are already there. They forgot that so Priest and Hudlin had to remind them.

I agree. Both Priest and Hudlin (and McDuffie, Aaron and now Maberry) all write T'challa as the guy from Fantastic Four Issue #52. However, the 80's really hurt the character. Apperances out side the book with writers who didn't understand him, or writers just writing him down, hurt the character.

I personally know where is at. It's just that will it ever be accepted. T'challa will never in my opinion get the slack that Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne has without non-readers raising hell, giving the book bad press, rumors and all the b.s in between.

Hell, while I think the marriage was a bit rushed...the actually book, the actuall story arc was fine. It was very enjoyable, and entertaining. Yet if you hear what is said, you would think it was the worst written comic ever.

But what Iím saying is that you have heroes like Batman and Captain America that have feats that surpass there level. You will never hear anyone bitch about Steve taking on the Hulk. Yet if Tíchalla does itÖthere is a melt down.

Moreover, Tíchalla taking on Wolverine is blasphemy to these folk. The arc when Tíchalla move too fast for Wolverine and throws him is something that should not be an issue right? Captain America goes toe-to-toe with Wolverine all the timeÖyet when Tíchalla does the same itís an issue.

So Iím saying that giving him a very visible upgrade where there is no mistake to his power level will go a long way to quite this B.S.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 20, 2009, 01:14:38 pm
The difference I see between Batman and Black Panther are 2 fold; the first is calling BP, "Marvel's Batman."  That forces the comparison and one of the conventions of comics is that the original is better than the copies.

The other issue is that Batman has been number one for 80 yrs.  BP on the other hand was written as a 2nd rate character for his first 20 yrs of his existence (after his first appearance).  For someone to turn around and say, "he is first rate" well, history doesn't support that and reconning history doesn't change what is in people's books.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 20, 2009, 01:26:42 pm
The difference I see between Batman and Black Panther are 2 fold; the first is calling BP, "Marvel's Batman."  That forces the comparison and one of the conventions of comics is that the original is better than the copies.

The other issue is that Batman has been number one for 80 yrs.  BP on the other hand was written as a 2nd rate character for his first 20 yrs of his existence (after his first appearance).  For someone to turn around and say, "he is first rate" well, history doesn't support that and reconning history doesn't change what is in people's books.

I agree.

That's why I always supported him getting a physical upgrade. So a superhuman Tíchalla is no longer like Batman, being just a human fighting people way above him. This is something that has not worked at all.

Tíchalla is super human and Batman is Peak human is a great difference to have. Then, Batman can be compared to someone else like Moonknight or something. While they have differences (like Tíchalla being a king for example), they also have a big physical similarity, being a polymath,both being rich, both being a prep masters and chess playersÖthese things are very, very similar.

Adding the mystical stuff removes that.

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 20, 2009, 01:36:15 pm
Plus the power upgrade isn't a recont, it's an evolution of the character.  It is like Nova.  He was a third rate character, but now he is first rate (though not an A-lister), but he got there through Wartime experience and an Upgrade.  Doomwar could give T, the same redefining moment.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 20, 2009, 02:25:40 pm
Plus the power upgrade isn't a recont, it's an evolution of the character.  It is like Nova.  He was a third rate character, but now he is first rate (though not an A-lister), but he got there through Wartime experience and an Upgrade.  Doomwar could give T, the same redefining moment.

Lets hope. I thought Marvel missed the boat with SI.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on November 21, 2009, 03:45:30 pm
First, before you read this, please note that some may take offense to the quote below. This person is a racist and a bigot. This is just one example of him posting nonsense. The sad part is when you see others agreeing with this nonsense. I believe personally that there is a huge group of comic readers who feel this way. Not in this manner(being racist), but their view of the character.

This is why I made this thread. Why my first post on this board was about T'challa needing a upgrade... that is clearly explained and enforced...being critical to him becoming A-list.

For whatever reason, T'challa fighting people and beating them who are shown to be more powerful does not fly in the same way that Batman does it. I mean, Batman is seen as badass because he is human and can beat on metahumans, including punch out Superman. That = Bruce being badass...for T'challa though it's totally different. Even Dwayne McDuffie said that on this very board. For some reason when it comes to T'challa, it's not acceptable.

So this is why fans who see the same things are big on him just being upgraded. as a means to finally get past this nonsense.

Quote
I'm not just talking about fights. Although there are several characters he has either screwed over or been mismatched with [Surfer, Wolverine, Karnak, Super Skrulls, Iron Man, Zombies etc]. Its also that he gets elevated to some kind of bad man status in terms of interactions. His nation is isolationist. It means nothing. So why would he be anything in diplomatic circles? Its things like putting him on a level with Doom, Illuminati, Blackbolt, Heralds. He shouldn't be in stories with these people unless its him getting owned.   What i was getting at with the Frogs and tech was that its a get out of jail free card like Batman with his various crap. It further compounds the Affirmative Action. It lets them put him in ridiculous situations against people so they can boost his profile and have a way out with some cruddy plot device, rather than making him fight people in his own league and win in an understandable way.Those pictures also reminded me of how they seemsto elevate his personality over others. When has Karnak ever been cocky like that? Thats just not in his character. Why is he made out to seem an idiot just because he is going up against BP? Same sort of thing in Civil War. Rhodes was made to look like some Uncle Tom House Negro whilst Black Panther became Black incarnate. Whats that about?   BP is always being elevated at the expense of others, just to make a black hero seem on par with white characters. Which is a shame.  "

Again, he's a moron, but there are a lot of morons...some are those who are not as idiotic, but just don't respect the character because of his powerlevel. They don't take the character serious and write the character off when he does something grand.



I agree...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 22, 2009, 05:13:30 am
I wonder if part of BP's acceptence as an A-lister  is the old adage, "if you have to say something is cool, it isn't.".

Before CP, RH, and now JM, no one really was going around saying, BP is the coolest/the number one bad a$$.  He was a niche player with some fans.  He was tough, but Cap and Wolvie were tougher.

The CP shows us, reconts/reinterprets his back story, and his fans and some writers are saying, "he's cool! He's the toughest one there is! He's an A-lister!"

And the rest of comicdon is thinking,  "if you have to tell me he's cool, he isn't."

No, I don't think this is the only issue.  But there was no effort beyond regular advertising to make Spidey cool; he simply was.  Same with Wolvie.  A large segment of the audience individually  decided he was cool, then he was.  (I say "individually" because there was no internet movement connecting them.)  Or Daredevil.  People liked Frank Miller's DD and suddenly the book was hot.  Let me rephrase that; a lot of people liked FM's DD and it became famous.)

This is where the internet I think has become an barrier.  When people got excited about FM's DD, the buzz spread the old way; in the store.  One person said to another, "you got to read this!".The other person did and the reading hooked them, or it didn't, then they discussed it on a small scale.  (The only large scale connection pushing popularity was the skyrocketing back issue market.) But with CP's DD, you saw something different.  One fan writes on-line,  "read this!"  Then a fifty page war starts between people trying to convince the other side,  "cool"/"not".  And unlike the old days, where a debated only lasted as long as you are in the store, now it lasts years.

Perhaps internet debates invokes the adage, "if you have to say it's cool, it ain't."
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 22, 2009, 08:04:42 am
Marvel's push of T'challa was incomplete as he wasn't featured in any team book or minis when he was being pushed.

He hasn't been a member of ANY Avengers team since Johns was on the book

He sat out being in the Illuminati(for good reason-but the end result is that Panther was not in a hot book).

His particpation in Civil War was mainly shown in his own book.

He was defending his own country in Secret Invasion. Again out of the larger fanbase's eye.

Contrast that to Marvel's push of Ms. Marvel.

She's been part of The Mighty Avengers and is a New Avenger now. She's had face time and a major speaking role in all the major Marvel miniseries recently.

And she's a recurring character on the SuperHero Squad show.

Now her comic is about to get cancelled but I'm pretty sure they will relaunch it.     

Now Panther actually sels better than Ms. Marvel(#10 showed a circulation of about 37,000 for the Black Panther) but she's in the eyes of the fans more.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on November 22, 2009, 09:31:49 am
Ms. Marvel is indication of what I am talking about.  Marvel tried to say "she's cool".  They wanted her to be their flagship female character.  And despite it all, the fans still prefer Emma.  They killed Ms. Marvel, no one cared.  They brought her back, no one cared.  Her back issues didn't skyrocket in price.  She's on Marvel Superheroes and mostly she sounds like a school teacher. 

Emma on the other hand became popular because one (cool) writer wrote her in a new way and suddenly, she's the number one female.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Vic Vega on November 22, 2009, 10:51:47 am
Ms. Marvel is indication of what I am talking about.  Marvel tried to say "she's cool".  They wanted her to be their flagship female character.  And despite it all, the fans still prefer Emma.  They killed Ms. Marvel, no one cared.  They brought her back, no one cared.  Her back issues didn't skyrocket in price.  She's on Marvel Superheroes and mostly she sounds like a school teacher. 

Emma on the other hand became popular because one (cool) writer wrote her in a new way and suddenly, she's the number one female.

What the fans say they like on the net is one thing. what actually sells is another.

They tried giving Emma a book and it didn't last 10 issues.

50 issues isn't bad for a female character in this crappy market.

Rogue and Jubilee each couldn't get past the 25 issue mark. Storm probably can't sell a solo period.

But Carol did get the face time T'Challa is lacking IMO.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 23, 2009, 12:09:20 am
Well said. Both of you bring up great points.

Vega, Doomwar seems like a very big start. A HUGE start in my opinionÖ. Iím still kind of shocked that it is happening. Kudos to Mr. Hudlin for laying the ground work to get Doom versus Tíchalla. Also thanks to Mr. Maberry for doing a bang up job, taking this book to the next level.

37 k?  Awesome.

Tom Breevort says that there is going to be a status quo change in the avengers and MU. Maybe Tíchalla, Storm and Shuri are a part of his new status quo? Joe Quesada has noted that joining the avengers in a possibility.

K.I.P, I agree with you totally. I donít want to be told how cool Tíchalla isÖthat is a failed formula. CJP had to do this story telling that way during his run to repair the damage that was done before him by other writers. Itís nearly repairedÖnow itís time to see Tíchalla in action. Only that will fix and help the character.

Quote
Wakanda, a technologically advanced African nation steeped in tribal tradition, hardly qualifies, and, the race of the character notwithstanding, the cool aloofness and formal Big Talk successive writers created for him inspired less curiosity as disinterest. As often as not, The Black Panther came off more boring than mysterious.

It seemed to me, as a reader, the writers simply didn't know what to do with this man who had no super-powers, no snappy dialog, no berserker rage and no obvious character faults to capitalize on. Over the years, Panther became a sideshow.
---Priest

Really, I think that Tíchalla is a great character, but the only way to make him A-list, and get new fans is a well crafted story, and FEATS. I will continue to say it. Besides a great story, cool feats draw readers in.
Both Spiderman and Wolverine have great feats. So kids see these scenes and think wow. Spiderman is awesome, and wow, Wolverine is cool. With the Panther, the constant outsmarting does not give a great visual.

Wolverine is said to only lift 800 pounds, but his feats are *never* limited to that. He is shown as being extremely fast and agile. He has no limitations. This is way I thought he was cool. He had powers, was a tough guy that could heal from anything, and claws, was a samurai, etc, etcÖ we were not only told, but we saw it on panel.

So to me that 1 ton upgrade is greatÖif itís shown. Tíchalla was noted as being as fast and agile as the Beast (so he should be faster now with the upgrade) this needs to be shown. This in my opinion is the door to Tíchalla taking on a Wolverine and a Spiderman in a straight out fight with no explanations. In the same way that Wolverine can match Spiderman in agility.

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/235/781531114956336ob2.jpg)

Maberry and Marvel are giving us this moment. T'challa vs Doom.

Hell we also have Shuri vs Namor...these are the showings that these characters needs.
But Marvel is going need these showings outside of the Panther book.

I still would love to see Jason Aaron use T'challa in his Wolverine: Weapon X book. Also well as some sort of mini crossovers with FF/Secret warrior with Heickmen (sp?) and Aaron on Wolverine. R. Reminder on Doctor Voodoo.

This book is on the right track. T'challa is on the right track, so I'm very happy.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 24, 2009, 01:37:38 pm
Case Study 1

Ok, we have seen some Tíchalla strength feats. Lifting throne that would have taken 3 people to lift. Pushing huge a bolder over a cliff. Braking chains, and wresting a rhino, etc...etc. Still you have Daredevil doing the same things and more; like pushing over a limo.  This is WITHOUT a heart shape herb. You have Danny Rand the Ironfist doing the same things BEFORE his upgrade. They are just as fast as Tíchalla. They are just as agile as Tíchalla.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038094-bpsstruggle_super.jpg)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038095-vsrhino1_super.jpg)
tr.v. bull∑dogged, bull∑dog∑ging, bull∑dogs Western U.S.
To throw (a calf or steer) by seizing its horns and twisting its neck until the animal falls.


Now compare that with this.

Steve Rogers benching 1100 pounds in a workout! as in reps with 1100 pounds(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038052-captainamerica1100_super.jpg)

Steve Rogers lifting a CAR over his head!
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038048-supercap_super.jpg)

Daredevil curling 300 plus something pounds, fighting with it, then throwing. The same Daredevil that flipped the limo!

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038057-dds_super.jpg)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038059-dds2_super.jpg)
Flipping a limo!
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1024093-daredevilfl2_super.jpg)

According to OHOTMU vol.1 #3 (Mar. 1989) Daredevil is Peakhuman.

More to come
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on November 24, 2009, 02:05:24 pm
CS2: what's the difference?

T'challa with Eugenics, Heart Shape Herb, and a life time of training.(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1025979-btimingbp_super.jpg)

Danny Rand, Peak Human from training. Pre-upgrade!
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038056-fastertecf.jpg)

More; "faster then the eye can see." this is before his current upgrade.
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1038122-bullets11_super.jpg)
OHOTMU: Update '89 #4 (Oct. 1989) says that he is Peak Human.

More to come ;)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on December 13, 2009, 08:11:28 am
Redzone was a really underrated storyline.

The Avengers take on a Tom Clancy-like bioweapon threat. Usually you dont see The Avengers used in semi realistic stories of this type.

Not only does Panther get love in this story (like Seven has shown) but the Falcon does too.

If you can pick it up in trade i'd recommend it.

Yes he Does...the Falcon got major love...not some side character. This is my favorite Avengers story.
Tom Foster also gets love (R.I.P). He is not giant man...but a lead scientist at CDC. They should have just left him there.

I asked the gf to get it for x-mas.. So I'll let you know if I liked it or not soon... 8)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on December 13, 2009, 11:38:07 am
Redzone was a really underrated storyline.

The Avengers take on a Tom Clancy-like bioweapon threat. Usually you dont see The Avengers used in semi realistic stories of this type.

Not only does Panther get love in this story (like Seven has shown) but the Falcon does too.

If you can pick it up in trade i'd recommend it.

Yes he Does...the Falcon got major love...not some side character. This is my favorite Avengers story.
Tom Foster also gets love (R.I.P). He is not giant man...but a lead scientist at CDC. They should have just left him there.

I asked the gf to get it for x-mas.. So I'll let you know if I liked it or not soon... 8)

cool,I'm sure you will like it.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on December 31, 2009, 11:43:59 am
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=10247707&postcount=237

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=10252595&postcount=280
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Kimoyo on December 31, 2009, 03:05:22 pm
Great grab 4sake!  While The Avengers has a certain allure to it, I'm  becoming more and more enamored with the idea presented here previously, sorry, I don't recall by whom, of T'Challa and Ororo heading up a new version of the Defenders!

Peace,

Mont



   
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on March 06, 2010, 09:20:55 am
Besides joining him BMB written Avengers team for a few years (that one of the main things it will take for both T'Challa and Ororo in the comics), cartoon running at least 3/4 season & movie..

T'Challa is a super genius warrior king who some time is viewed as a superhero :

IMO this hold '' the Black Panther (whether it T'Challa, T'Chaka, Shuri, S'Yan, Azzari & etc) & ESPECIALLY T'Challa is a street level/low powered characters type of thinking/attitude needs to go away/ignored'' because he wasn't created as one & nor was he originally as one.. He was atleast mid a level powered  characters imo & when he written correctly that exactly what he..

I've noticed that most of marvel most popular character in comics are low to high mid level powered characters (Spider-Man, Wolverine,  Deadpool, Iron Man, Steve R./Cap.Am & Daredevil are all mid level powered for the most part..) Only characters that break this trend & been able to some what hold an ongoing are Hulk & Thor; maybe She Hulk & The Ghost Riders.. Fantastic Four & X-Men also, but there team books..

Warrior King/Powers/Leader

Now on offense to Daredevil & Iron Fist (pre upgrade) fans but there no way T'Challa (pre upgrade) should be showed less powerfully/stronger than then when he powerfully/stronger both.. T'Challa (post upgrade) is probably stronger than Iron Fist post (upgrade) also..But if he was to kick either of there but most comic fan would have a fit, but the point is he a mid level power character & not a street level powered one.. DD is street level/mid-low powered characters, Cage is street level but because of his out look on life & not his powers (he's stronger than Cap.Am, BP, DD, IF, OMD/BND Spider-Man, & Logan)..

If you take look at the current Avengers rosters

NA :Cage, Spider-Man, Jewel, Logan & Thing
A  : Iron Man, Thor, James. B Hawkeye & Spider-Woman

You can fan boy crying that NA is street level & etc but if actually look at it you can make a better case that A is street level or more street level if we want to go by power levels..

Hawkeye & James B have no powers, but you never here most ppl called them street level or to low powered to be on the Avengers teams.  (An if he were beat them you had some of the same ppl crying)

Steve R. only became Peak Human after taking the SS (become that he a very skinny & well train guy).. While T'Challa (pre upgrade) was shown to Peak Human before he got his Bast/Panther powers & Peak Human without his Bast/Panther powers.. There no way (with what written down in marvel cannon) that T'Challa pre upgrade, or & without his Panther powers is not stronger or as stronger as Cap.Am.. when he should be exactly that. With both panther powers & his upgrades doesn't make sense on any level (other than writer not wanting him to be) that T'Challa shouldn't be show stronger than Steve R. (so what it if piss out fan boys.. It write there in marvel cannon)..   If Steve R can lift  800-1100 pounds than T'Challa with both panther powers & post upgrade he should lift atleast 1200-1600 pounds with (pre upgrade) T'Challa lifting atleast 800-1100..

Also Logan, Spider-Man, Deadpool, Steve R. Iron Frist (per or post upgrade) should be shown faster than T'Challa. An if/when they are written he should be shown/written as even faster because he is faster..

Also I think T'Challa honor code being shown would help also push him to alist.. Also shown more how his ruling style is different from his granddad, dad, uncle & etc..  Show him meeting him each other 18 different tibes/cults (White Gorilla Cult, Lion Cult,  the city, Crocodile Cult,  the mountain, Killmongers.) Maybe introduce/flesh out a some more.. all mutant tibe, maybe Mahatma Gandhi like tibe (as in non-violent/civil disobedience etc type) & etc


Super Genuis

When T'Challa was created he was more than likely at least the 3 maybe 4 smartest person in the Marvel U (Doom, Reed, T'Challa & Tony S.  ).. That shouldn't change imo because certain written tried to dumb him down (crack in Wakanda anyone, that nonsense like Hulk 20 & etc).. I have no problem with your Banners, Pyms & Beast getting smarter, that should mean  T'Challa is now dumber.. like both (Reed & Doom) T'Challa has been shown to be good in/ smart at at lot of science fields (which why I always consider him at least 3rd), but he need a specialty or that we been shown to believe as his specialty needed to be shown more.
Doom - kind of have magic as his he the super guy who great a magic.
Reed -  Idk what his is any idea ?
Beast - mutant genetics (I think he most mostly got role because Prof. X & Mags were either dead.in coma/no longer mutants at the time they putting these list together because they both no more about mutant genetics than him.
Banner & Cho (I stop reading the Hulk books so correct me if I'm wrong) don't they both used numbers/calculation as weapons or something like that.. Also Banner nuclear physics
Tony S. - armors & some weapons
Pym (size-changing/Pym particles even throw he wasn't 1st marvel character to do so)
T'Challa - I believe his specialties is Flight are (his jets, battleship/War ship, wings,planes) & Techno-organic/Technorganic material/matter (Techo jungle) & all things (Vibranium)..

No one in marvel u should be better than T'Challa when it comes to those things.. He should be always show the best at making stuff fly, Technorganic material (he the only human I know of in the marvel U that made & has man -made technorganic material.. All the only Technorganic stuff in the marvel U come from space) & Vibranium..

Viewed as a Super hero

We seen in both Wakanda (lil kid) & US (by Synch) that kids/teen view T'Challa as a super hero/ as their hero also.. That should be play up more..  Like have a few young hero or heroes (maybe Gravity, Black Goliath, Network/Valerie Martin, Reptil & David Evan Munroe jr/Spyke like power would all by good pick imo).. have inspired T'Challa them so how & then have them say why they look up to him & want to be like him & etc.. he already kind of inspired (Gravity &Black Goliath & D.E. Munroe).

Kind of like Cho what was for Hulk & Hercules & AraŮa for Ms.Marvel, but PLEASE NO not as side kick maybe support cast (like around 10-18 app out of 40-50), but not side kick & not another Ross (42 app in CP run 62)..  No need for them to show in every other issue but maybe every OTHER time T'Challa comes to the USA.. Storm kind already has/had this with most of 3rd/4th gen X-men (your Kittys, Jubes, Cannonballs, also Colossus kind of looks up to her also imo with the big sis lil bro relationship & with 4th/5th/last gen Nezhno..)..  Like show up for team up/for mentoring & then leave lol (like AraŮa did in Ms.Marvel for a while & how Blue Beetle does on Batman the Brave & the Bold)... IMO Franklin should have went to live with his uncle T'Challa when the FF died in Heroes Reborn & not the X-Men (I know T'Challa was in the HRB world also but it didn't make sense for to be there imo, but at least we got him being drawn by Jim Lee out of it..)

His Peers 


Have them could ask him for help..

Steve R. train with the best of the best (because a lil rustee  for being lost in time/death) he calls  T'Challa or if he wants to learn a new frighting style he calls T'Challa..

Reed new a lil help with a science prob he gives T'Challa a call  especially when it comes to flying, Technorganic material, Vibranium & Etc..

Tony S. needs to get his company back.. So who he need to call T'Challa  :D .. He wants to make  his armor a lil faster or bulid a new speed or & flying base weapon.. Who he need to call... T'Challa  ;D..

Logan - when feel like looking for peace of mind/enter peace.. He should call T'Challa  so he can visited Wakanda & clear his mind snice he semi-suicidal/pushing himself so hard to redeem his bad acts (marvel current reasoning on why he on so many teams & shows up every where)..
 

Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on March 06, 2010, 12:53:58 pm
Well said 4sake!!! ;D
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on March 06, 2010, 01:38:25 pm
Quote
There no way (with what written down in marvel cannon) that T'Challa pre upgrade, or & without his Panther powers is not stronger or as stronger as Cap.Am.. when he should be exactly that.

This is why I was pointing out why I didn't like the HSH and it being used like roids. :-X I don't think T'challa should have been stronger then Cap pre HSH, but he was still peak human. The HSH should only move him to Peak human perfection.

Quote
With both panther powers & his upgrades doesn't make sense on any level (other than writer not wanting him to be) that T'Challa shouldn't be show stronger than Steve R. (so what it if piss out fan boys.. It write there in marvel cannon)..

Agreed totally.

Quote
If Steve R can lift  800-1100 pounds than T'Challa with both panther powers & post upgrade he should lift atleast 1200-1600 pounds with (pre upgrade) T'Challa lifting atleast 800-1100..

Pre upgrade, T'challa was 780 pounds, but he was said to be faster and more agile..yet that was never shown...which hurt the character. Post-upgrade is 1 ton...(not sure if this is max effort either), and should be a hell of a lot faster.

This has to be shown. Doomwar could do a lot if we see T'challa bullet timing...and smacking people.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on March 06, 2010, 02:11:11 pm
Quote
There no way (with what written down in marvel cannon) that T'Challa pre upgrade, or & without his Panther powers is not stronger or as stronger as Cap.Am.. when he should be exactly that.

This is why I was pointing out why I didn't like the HSH and it being used like roids. :-X I don't think T'challa should have been stronger then Cap pre HSH, but he was still peak human. The HSH should only move him to Peak human perfection.

Quote
With both panther powers & his upgrades doesn't make sense on any level (other than writer not wanting him to be) that T'Challa shouldn't be show stronger than Steve R. (so what it if piss out fan boys.. It write there in marvel cannon)..


Agreed totally.

Quote
If Steve R can lift  800-1100 pounds than T'Challa with both panther powers & post upgrade he should lift atleast 1200-1600 pounds with (pre upgrade) T'Challa lifting atleast 800-1100..


Pre upgrade, T'challa was 780 pounds, but he was said to be faster and more agile..yet that was never shown...which hurt the character. Post-upgrade is 1 ton...(not sure if this is max effort either), and should be a hell of a lot faster.


This has to be shown. Doomwar could do a lot if we see T'challa bullet timing...and smacking people.


On here http://marvel.wikia.com/T%27Challa_%28Earth-616%29   they have him around/just under 800 & Steve R. at 800 & 1100

http://marvel.wikia.com/Steven_Rogers_%28Earth-616%29.. So that why I put 800-1100 because imo Steve shouldn't be stronger than pre upgrade  T'Challa (same goes for DD, pre & post upgrade IF & etc imo) .. I'm horrible at math how many pounds are in 1 ton?

I agree with you about the speed..

Well said 4sake!!! ;D


Thanks..
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on March 06, 2010, 02:43:25 pm
The standard ton or short ton is 2000 pounds.

Short Ton = 2,000 Lbs - (which is what we use).
Long Ton = 2,240 Lbs
Metric Ton = 2,204.6 Lbs

So right now T'challa is flat out stronger, faster and more agile. Add his genius level knowledge of physics to his fighting and should be pretty bad ass.

It just has to be shown...and not always implied.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on March 06, 2010, 03:20:05 pm
The standard ton or short ton is 2000 pounds.

Short Ton = 2,000 Lbs - (which is what we use).
Long Ton = 2,240 Lbs
Metric Ton = 2,204.6 Lbs

So right now T'challa is flat out stronger, faster and more agile. At his genius level knowledge of physics to his fighting and should be pretty bad ass.

It just has to be shown...and not always implied.

Interesting thanks for the math & I can't wait to see him in action... 8)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on March 06, 2010, 10:40:27 pm
For another BP feat, during the priest run he stops a cop car with his feet that had been thrown by the hulk
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on March 07, 2010, 04:25:11 am
Was that his muscles or the costume?  Priest had him wearing a costume that absorbed all impact energy, did the costume absorb the impact of the car, or did his muscles stop it?  (For his muscles to stop it, he'd have to be many times stronger than Spider-man and invulnerable too.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on March 07, 2010, 08:28:27 am
Was that his muscles or the costume?  Priest had him wearing a costume that absorbed all impact energy, did the costume absorb the impact of the car, or did his muscles stop it?  (For his muscles to stop it, he'd have to be many times stronger than Spider-man and invulnerable too.


You are correct K.I.P.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on March 07, 2010, 11:55:36 pm
Was that his muscles or the costume?  Priest had him wearing a costume that absorbed all impact energy, did the costume absorb the impact of the car, or did his muscles stop it?  (For his muscles to stop it, he'd have to be many times stronger than Spider-man and invulnerable too.


You are correct K.I.P.

Yeah, you're right, I think I always figured it was a mixture of the two.  Earlier four guys light him up with like a million bullets and he's fine, which seems like an impact resistance thing, but stopping a car with your feet/legs seems more like flat out strength i.e. he still had to try to stop the car as opposed to laying down and being shot at.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: KIP LEWIS on March 08, 2010, 04:17:28 am
The way I see it, he braced himself, so his legs didn't fold, but all the energy went into the vibranium rather than his bones or muscles.    Or maybe 99.9 percent went into the costume.  I'm not sure you could actually walk if the costume absorbed 100 percent of the energy.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on March 08, 2010, 11:30:31 am
The way I see it, he braced himself, so his legs didn't fold, but all the energy went into the vibranium rather than his bones or muscles.    Or maybe 99.9 percent went into the costume.  I'm not sure you could actually walk if the costume absorbed 100 percent of the energy.

Yeah, any physics people in here?  We could get really nerdy and try to figure out the amount of force exerted from jumping out of a four story building versus stopping a car hahaha
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on March 09, 2010, 02:04:16 pm
Folks.flat out: BPshoulda been stronger faster and more agile than CA from jump,and most especially now that he has the upgrade? he should be able to be SHOWN as A TRULY TERRIFYING H2H COMBATANT on top of everything e lse.His ubergenius makes him probably the unquestioned nonmegapowered pinnacle of h2h combat in the MU.Remember how..in that new SHERLOCK HOLMES movie...Sherlock used his megagenius in h2h to surgically strike his opponent in precisely the right spot causing exactly the kind of damage that he wished? yeah.Multiply that by 30 times and you got TCHALLA.And we haven't even touched the other possibilities for his magic.I mean..vibranium magnifies magical energy? Can we say VIBRANIUM THRICE BLESSED ARMOR mixed in with LIGHT ARMOR and the morphing habit that PRIEST BP (shifting from street clothes to Panther habit lined with kinetic energy stealing properties and EM breakdown properties so all EM attacks like lasers and repulsor rays can't harm him) showed in his run and whatnot? Mayne.The possibilities are endless.

BP does NOT equal MARVEL'S BATMAN.BP would equal MARVEL'S BATMAN PLUS say WOLVERINE level senses plus DOOM level genius plus many times more than BRUCE WAYNE money and greater than BATMAN uberprep (remember,PREIST TCHALLA WAS BUILT ON RAS AL GHUL,THE ONLY GUY TO "OUT-BATMAN" BATMAN via prep and stuff) plus greater than BATMAN MARTIAL ARTS skillz and knowledge (Tchalla knows the rest of the world's martial arts,but NOBODY KNOWS THE MARTIAL ART OF WAKANDA OR THE ROYAL LINEAGE WAKANDAN MARTIAL ART OUTSIDE OF WAKANDA) plus magic like say a combo of Elric of Melnibone (TCHALLA can beseech THE PANTHER GOD directly) and Blade (the movie character) or Doctor Druid (remember him?) that could even land BP in a MIDNIGHT SONS kind of adventure should an author choose to write him that way.There's just TOO MUCH  for BP to do.And MOON KNIGHT is a knock off of a combo of BATMAN and BP but weaker than either...especially much weaker than TCHALLA.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on March 09, 2010, 05:09:48 pm
Folks.flat out: BPshoulda been stronger faster and more agile than CA from jump,and most especially now that he has the upgrade? he should be able to be SHOWN as A TRULY TERRIFYING H2H COMBATANT on top of everything e lse.His ubergenius makes him probably the unquestioned nonmegapowered pinnacle of h2h combat in the MU.Remember how..in that new SHERLOCK HOLMES movie...Sherlock used his megagenius in h2h to surgically strike his opponent in precisely the right spot causing exactly the kind of damage that he wished? yeah.Multiply that by 30 times and you got TCHALLA.And we haven't even touched the other possibilities for his magic.I mean..vibranium magnifies magical energy? Can we say VIBRANIUM THRICE BLESSED ARMOR mixed in with LIGHT ARMOR and the morphing habit that PRIEST BP (shifting from street clothes to Panther habit lined with kinetic energy stealing properties and EM breakdown properties so all EM attacks like lasers and repulsor rays can't harm him) showed in his run and whatnot? Mayne.The possibilities are endless.

BP does NOT equal MARVEL'S BATMAN.BP would equal MARVEL'S BATMAN PLUS say WOLVERINE level senses plus DOOM level genius plus many times more than BRUCE WAYNE money and greater than BATMAN uberprep (remember,PREIST TCHALLA WAS BUILT ON RAS AL GHUL,THE ONLY GUY TO "OUT-BATMAN" BATMAN via prep and stuff) plus greater than BATMAN MARTIAL ARTS skillz and knowledge (Tchalla knows the rest of the world's martial arts,but NOBODY KNOWS THE MARTIAL ART OF WAKANDA OR THE ROYAL LINEAGE WAKANDAN MARTIAL ART OUTSIDE OF WAKANDA) plus magic like say a combo of Elric of Melnibone (TCHALLA can beseech THE PANTHER GOD directly) and Blade (the movie character) or Doctor Druid (remember him?) that could even land BP in a MIDNIGHT SONS kind of adventure should an author choose to write him that way.There's just TOO MUCH  for BP to do.And MOON KNIGHT is a knock off of a combo of BATMAN and BP but weaker than either...especially much weaker than TCHALLA.

I agree about the Sherlock H bit...that is why T' challa should be shown doing all the time. You are right...but T'challa was not only built on Ras Al Ghul...but also Batman and Ras together...that's T'challa. He is a total bad ass.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on April 12, 2010, 11:41:06 am
Mini rant (that some what apply to this topic)..

The BIGGEST problem is the lack of respect some have for the character... Now I don't put to much stuck in most of the net/message boards fans,but those fan imo are the ones who break down what character about to there friends, Fam., etc who don't read comics..  But you have fans complaining when T'Challa beat ppl he always been better, stronger & etc then there prob imo.. You have folks who want characters who basically  some what weaker/not as powerful knockoffs of his character & concept (Iron Fist & Moon Knight )to beat him & (actually think they should win).. (And if he were to beat them it would be called jobbing)..

T'Challa (while holding back) beat a pre-upgrade Iron Fist & it jobbing ? seriously?? T'Challa without his upgrade/with panther powers is ATLEAST to twice stronger than Rand, not meant faster, smarter, better at prep, better strategist, richer & etc..  Now Rand with his upgrade should/would actually be a some what of a challenge for T'Challa (pre upgrade)..    Either way T'Challa pre or post upgrade should be-able to Iron Fist..

And Moon Knight only stand a chance against T'Challa (pre or post upgrade) if he under the light of a full moon (he can lift 2 ton then and only then) because that he strongest other wise T'Challa is about Twice is strong as him also and maybe 3 or 4 time with his upgrade..

Also The BP and DD comparisons need to stop imo..  T'Challa pre or post upgrade is ATLEAST twice strong as DD (not to mention faster, smarter & etc.).. So if DD picking up car T'Challa (pre or post) should be picking  SUV or buses or something.. They are not on same power well...  Also the same applies to Shuri with her BP is stronger than DD, MK (without full moon) & etc.. This idea that Bast gives out street level powers & that a BP power set is that of a street level hero need to threw out of a window then needs a small building drop on it and then needs a sinkhole come n sallow both that idea with the building on top of it.. The same needs to happen to ideas like Hawkeye, DD, & etc are near the same power level, T'Challa not being near top of the smart list/as smart as Doom & Reed if NOT Smarter than them...

End of Rant (for now....)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Mastrmynd on April 13, 2010, 01:14:26 pm
feel better now 4sake?
:)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on April 13, 2010, 01:27:37 pm
feel better now 4sake?
:)

a lil bit...  :D  ;D  Thanks for asking..  8)
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 14, 2010, 07:41:31 pm
Mini rant (that some what apply to this topic)..

The BIGGEST problem is the lack of respect some have for the character... Now I don't put to much stuck in most of the net/message boards fans,but those fan imo are the ones who break down what character about to there friends, Fam., etc who don't read comics..  But you have fans complaining when T'Challa beat ppl he always been better, stronger & etc then there prob imo.. You have folks who want characters who basically  some what weaker/not as powerful knockoffs of his character & concept (Iron Fist & Moon Knight )to beat him & (actually think they should win).. (And if he were to beat them it would be called jobbing)..

T'Challa (while holding back) beat a pre-upgrade Iron Fist & it jobbing ? seriously?? T'Challa without his upgrade/with panther powers is ATLEAST to twice stronger than Rand, not meant faster, smarter, better at prep, better strategist, richer & etc..  Now Rand with his upgrade should/would actually be a some what of a challenge for T'Challa (pre upgrade)..    Either way T'Challa pre or post upgrade should be-able to Iron Fist..

And Moon Knight only stand a chance against T'Challa (pre or post upgrade) if he under the light of a full moon (he can lift 2 ton then and only then) because that he strongest other wise T'Challa is about Twice is strong as him also and maybe 3 or 4 time with his upgrade..

Also The BP and DD comparisons need to stop imo..  T'Challa pre or post upgrade is ATLEAST twice strong as DD (not to mention faster, smarter & etc.).. So if DD picking up car T'Challa (pre or post) should be picking  SUV or buses or something.. They are not on same power well...  Also the same applies to Shuri with her BP is stronger than DD, MK (without full moon) & etc.. This idea that Bast gives out street level powers & that a BP power set is that of a street level hero need to threw out of a window then needs a small building drop on it and then needs a sinkhole come n sallow both that idea with the building on top of it.. The same needs to happen to ideas like Hawkeye, DD, & etc are near the same power level, T'Challa not being near top of the smart list/as smart as Doom & Reed if NOT Smarter than them...

End of Rant (for now....)


Totally agree here,man.Point blank,BP is the pinnacle expression of the pinnacle civilization of human history.Period.It's a wrap.BP point blank needs to  be shown doing more and more  cool stuff and making that standard.He needs more consistent,potent feats.He and Shuri are lookin IIIILLL in DW.Lovin it!
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on April 16, 2010, 11:25:35 am
The standard ton or short ton is 2000 pounds.

Short Ton = 2,000 Lbs - (which is what we use).
Long Ton = 2,240 Lbs
Metric Ton = 2,204.6 Lbs

So right now T'challa is flat out stronger, faster and more agile. Add his genius level knowledge of physics to his fighting and should be pretty bad ass.

It just has to be shown...and not always implied.

So, T'challa has always been listed as having a strength level of 750 pounds, according to OHOTMU: Update '89 #1 (Jul. 1989). With Steve Rogers being listed as 800 pounds (according to the same source).

So T'challa's mystical upgrade has only allowed him to gain 1, 250 pounds and magic resist? To me, that does not make since.  If men were suppose to fear getting this power and men have died trying this...I would think that T'challa would do something else...for example like getting U.S Agent's formula via the Power Broker, or just wearing a power suit that gives him strenght and has magic wards to fend off magic attacks?

Just saying...and this was brought to my attention by someone.

Btw...Steve has a new mini by Bru...who also says that Steve is above Peak Human (meaning enhanced). I doubt Steve is going in the one ton range(but two tons)...they are playing it as he has always been there.

 


 
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Mastrmynd on April 16, 2010, 11:27:15 am
Seven!!
what up dude?
how ya been?
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on April 16, 2010, 11:27:56 am
Seven!!
what up dude?
how ya been?

chillin...man. Nothing much.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Shade on April 16, 2010, 12:16:08 pm
The standard ton or short ton is 2000 pounds.

Short Ton = 2,000 Lbs - (which is what we use).
Long Ton = 2,240 Lbs
Metric Ton = 2,204.6 Lbs

So right now T'challa is flat out stronger, faster and more agile. Add his genius level knowledge of physics to his fighting and should be pretty bad ass.

It just has to be shown...and not always implied.

So, T'challa has always been listed as having a strength level of 750 pounds, according to OHOTMU: Update '89 #1 (Jul. 1989). With Steve Rogers being listed as 800 pounds (according to the same source).

So T'challa's mystical upgrade has only allowed him to gain 1, 250 pounds and magic resist? To me, that does not make since.  If men were suppose to fear getting this power and men have died trying this...I would think that T'challa would do something else...for example like getting U.S Agent's formula via the Power Broker, or just wearing a power suit that gives him strenght and has magic wards to fend off magic attacks?

Just saying...and this was brought to my attention by someone.

Btw...Steve has a new mini by Bru...who also says that Steve is above Peak Human (meaning enhanced). I doubt Steve is going in the one ton range(but two tons)...they are playing it as he has always been there.

 


 

Wait Steve just got upgraded too? Why?
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on April 16, 2010, 10:50:19 pm
The standard ton or short ton is 2000 pounds.

Short Ton = 2,000 Lbs - (which is what we use).
Long Ton = 2,240 Lbs
Metric Ton = 2,204.6 Lbs

So right now T'challa is flat out stronger, faster and more agile. Add his genius level knowledge of physics to his fighting and should be pretty bad ass.

It just has to be shown...and not always implied.

So, T'challa has always been listed as having a strength level of 750 pounds, according to OHOTMU: Update '89 #1 (Jul. 1989). With Steve Rogers being listed as 800 pounds (according to the same source).

So T'challa's mystical upgrade has only allowed him to gain 1, 250 pounds and magic resist? To me, that does not make since.  If men were suppose to fear getting this power and men have died trying this...I would think that T'challa would do something else...for example like getting U.S Agent's formula via the Power Broker, or just wearing a power suit that gives him strenght and has magic wards to fend off magic attacks?

Just saying...and this was brought to my attention by someone.

Btw...Steve has a new mini by Bru...who also says that Steve is above Peak Human (meaning enhanced). I doubt Steve is going in the one ton range(but two tons)...they are playing it as he has always been there.

 


 

Wait Steve just got upgraded too? Why?

No idea...because Bru wanted too.  He's playing it as Steve has always been Enhanced level...basically what I have been saying about T'challa...so he is using he same logic...I just wish this was applied to T'challa...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on April 29, 2010, 09:42:17 am
Hey, Seven take look at this...

Steve R.(who is as strong T'Challa. maybe a lil stronger) & Nick Fury (who has no powers other than slowed ageing unlike his Ult. version who's like a lowered powered version of Cage & Isaiah Bradley) BEAT The U FOES DOWN (the souped up version of the FF,  HULK villains & The same ppl that was beating the h@ll out of Thor during in some of the tie-ins Siege).. not defeat but beat them Down!!!!..

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/SiegeSecretwarriors1014.jpg)

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/SiegeSecretwarriors1015.jpg)

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/SiegeSecretwarriors1016.jpg)

They beat the Hulk

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5586/470561-u2_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/u2/105-470561/)

Hulk eventually beat them (it took him a while)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35795/719028-ufoesvhulk_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/ufoesvhulk/105-719028/)

Now if T'Challa was even shown to think about even beating up one of these ppl (Let alone the whole Team) net would break...
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on April 29, 2010, 11:53:30 am
I know...this pisses me off.

The whole upgrade is pretty lame. It should at least be higher for the post you just gave, you don't see the whinning that would would if T'challa did the same, even if it was explained...you would have haters whinning about.

But if T'challa was just lower level Spiderman...then all that would be out of the window...it would be clear to readers...plus I still don't get why T'challa would risk his life to lift a few more hundred pounds and magic resist...when he could have just build a suit that is far stronger with the same magic wards...for example the Thriced Blessed Armor...being powered armor, instead of just armor.

It doesn't make sense that men died screaming for this upgrade.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Ture on April 29, 2010, 12:56:25 pm
Completely agree with you Seven. The armor being Thrice blessed could also give the necessary protection against magic. Note about your April 16th post: The official handbook of the Marvel Universe vol.1#2,1983 list that Tchalla is "able to lift (press) approximately 800 pounds." It says Cap "is able to lift (press) 800 pounds with great effort." Tchalla's is "heightened to a nearly superhuman degree." Cap is "heightened to the pinnacle of human perfection." The Deluxe Edition vol.2#2, 1986 edition is out right insulting.
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on April 30, 2010, 11:47:09 am
I know...this pisses me off.

The whole upgrade is pretty lame. It should at least be higher for the post you just gave, you don't see the whinning that would would if T'challa did the same, even if it was explained...you would have haters whinning about.

But if T'challa was just lower level Spiderman...then all that would be out of the window...it would be clear to readers...plus I still don't get why T'challa would risk his life to lift a few more hundred pounds and magic resist...when he could have just build a suit that is far stronger with the same magic wards...for example the Thriced Blessed Armor...being powered armor, instead of just armor.

It doesn't make sense that men died screaming for this upgrade.

I agree.. I'm hoping his upgrade & his Bast power (once he becomes BP again) get combine..
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: 4sake on May 03, 2010, 11:36:06 am
I know...this pisses me off.

The whole upgrade is pretty lame. It should at least be higher for the post you just gave, you don't see the whinning that would would if T'challa did the same, even if it was explained...you would have haters whinning about.

But if T'challa was just lower level Spiderman...then all that would be out of the window...it would be clear to readers...plus I still don't get why T'challa would risk his life to lift a few more hundred pounds and magic resist...when he could have just build a suit that is far stronger with the same magic wards...for example the Thriced Blessed Armor...being powered armor, instead of just armor.

It doesn't make sense that men died screaming for this upgrade.

The DOUBLE STANDARD make me lol.. I just saw the same guy who complained for 2 pages that T'Challa was able to take Karnak with ease (When even there own creators wrote them like that)..Say he had lil to no problem with Steve R. & 616 NON Super powered Nick Fury not defeat, but beat down the U Foes...   
Title: Re: FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST
Post by: Seven on May 20, 2010, 10:05:20 am
http://www.comicvine.com/news/reginald-hudlin-talks-black-panther-flags-of-our-fathers/141155/ (http://www.comicvine.com/news/reginald-hudlin-talks-black-panther-flags-of-our-fathers/141155/)

Double standard is clear view...during this Babs (of Comicvine) and Mr. Hudlin interview.
Again...this is why T'challa needs a upgrade that is above Steve Rogers.