After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther". Though the writing maybe satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.
Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.
The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess whom is known through out Afraka.
We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?
Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister ask the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet. Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microwave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.
PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM,THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM BUT DOOM HAS!!!
OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.
HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.
Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.
Here's your mistake, Ture. I'm not writing DOOMWAR. I don't get the credit, I don't get the blame.
I'm AAAa blaming you, anyway!
Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie fault. Reggie has made some pretty bad mistakes during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine.
First off he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered.
He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice
look superior to the X-Men
subdue the Sub Mariner
outclass Ironman
easily out fight Karnak.Really???
Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom
and help liberate a Skrull world.
HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong. (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.
Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.
The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess who is known throughout Afraka.
We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?
Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister asks the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet (this did not occur in Doomwar but is the catalyst for it). Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microweave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.
PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM, THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM... BUT DOOM HAS!!!
All this occurs in the first issue.
Where is the advanced technology Wakanda is legendary for? Why weren't the Dora Milaje cloaked? Where was Tchalla's armors? Why does Tchalla have runes painted on his flesh and not Medu? How can so many Wakandans be ignorant of magic and spirituality? Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda?
In issue #3 we start off with a six page recap whose pages could have been better utilized depicting the caves of Bast, (remember how long you stared at Jim Lees depiction of the batcave).
Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nanites but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set off an EMP. Wakanda needs Reed's supplies to have power restored? Why do they continue saying Wakanda has been conquered when they clearly have not.
OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.
So as I await the conclusion of Doomwar hoping for the redemption of Storm, Wakanda and especially Tchalla (the only Black Panther I'm concerned with) I am prepared for the worst.
Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie's fault "wink". Reggie has made some prettybadimpactful "mistakes" during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need toexamineappreciate.
First off, he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered. He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice, look superior to the X-Men, subdue the Sub Mariner, outclass Ironman and easily out fight Karnak. Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom and helped liberate a Skrull world.
HIS MOSTFLAGRANTERRORAUDACIOUS MOVE WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD TO INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. :o
Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.
The aforementioned are no doubt viewed as "mistakes" to be corrected and are inexcusable to BP haters. Why? Because they demonstrate a responsibility to one's artistry, one's people, the general public and to one's self. As I turn to the first page of Reggie's latest work Flags of our Fathers I already see the "mistakes"... I mean, SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS to give depth and integrity to this deserving character.
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.
Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.
Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.
<<The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read. >>
I have said and often felt, that getting the BP that Reg created and making BP an A-lister are mutually exclusive goals. A-Listers are the "safe", non-political, non-threatening, non-anything type. A Listers are multi-cultural, inclusive, (socially) politically correct. Reggie's vision of BP isn't for the masses, an A-list BP and Storm would be for the masses. (That's why when Storm was at her height of popularity, she became the example of Multiculturalism--she isn't Black, she's all races.)
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.
I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.
I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.
I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.
Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."
Instead we get this....
([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])
...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!
Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."
Instead we get this....
(http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg)
...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!
;D YES!!! Say it plain, Ture! :D
Having seen my fair share (and then some), of the anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin's Black Panther posts - some of them from our own Yoda - I had no trouble discerning your fine post for exactly what it was. You're right, Ture. This is not simply and solely a black/white racial issue. "Those arguments were constructed to fail and self destruct". As many times as I have experienced this very thing, I've no doubt but that you are correct. On the other hand, there's bluezulu saying something I have posted myself more than once: "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book". Realistically, a black man writing a black book is not the panacea some of us might like to think. Still, bluezulu expresses a frustration I suspect most of us are able to relate to on some level.
For instance, in my view, too many white Marvel Comics fans having too little knowledge of the Black Panther and Wakanda will always dismiss the character as a perennial B-list product. What they know of Wakanda is that it's a xenophobic, racist nation. And yet, a white man - Horatio Walters a.k.a. Venomm - came to Wakanda as an invader, a lieutenant to Killmonger. After befriending Taku, Walters had a change of heart and to my knowledge, never left Wakanda but remained there evidently living there as a Wakandan citizen. I do remember seeing Venomm leading a column of Wakandan troops marching against the Jabari tribe during Priest's run. Priest, a black writer, chose to show Venomm, a white character, in what appeared to be a position of prominence and command over what many white fans might say were racist Wakandan troops.
Like bluezulu, I have "fallen away" from purchasing the traditionally strong Marvel Comics titles. The characters no longer seem to appeal to me as much as they once did. The culture of the books have changed as well and not always to my liking. In recent months, I'd been purchasing Doctor Voodoo which as we all know has been cancelled. I purchased Black Panther, now cancelled. I picked up the Cloak and Dagger one-shot; Cloak is my favorite character. Presently, I'm buying Flags Of Our Fathers and DOOMWAR. That's it. I mention this because I had no idea that the Wakandan X-Man Nezhno was bi-racial until recently.
Apparently, Kyle Yost, a white writer, chose to create (or to re-create), Nezhno as a bi-racial character. I remember a CBR discussion started by the member Magneto X. He was questioning why it was the Wakandan mutant Nezhno was rendered in one illustration having brown eyes, but in another identical illustration having blue eyes. As I recall, the issue of Nezhno's bi-racial heritage was not once mentioned in that exchange and I'm assuming Nezhno's racial heritage wasn't mentioned because at the time of that exchange, Nezhno may not yet have been bi-racial.
If that is the case and Nezhno's bi-racial heritage is a recent development I have to ponder the question why. I had been a proponent of Nezhno leaving the X-Men and returning with Storm to Wakanda. Through bits of information here and there, I've learned that Nezhno did in fact return to Wakanda and wanted very much to fit in. The story as written by Kyle Yost, had Nezhno being rejected by every Wakandan including his own mother. Nezhno saves the life of his brother - whom I'm assuming he didn't know he had until that very moment - and was recognized by his mother who rejected Nezhno on the spot. How could it be that this xenophobic, racist Wakandan woman could put aside those attitudes long enough to allow herself to become inseminated by a Russian, an "outworlder"? Further, how could this Wakandan woman be so cold and heartless to reject the son she carried to term and gave birth to? Why didn't she simply abort Nezhno if she hated him so? How could she love the Russian father, but hate her Russian/Wakandan son?
Because Kyle Yost wanted it that way. He wanted to write a story about how a willing Nezhno returned to Wakanda hoping to find acceptance and a home there, but instead was rejected even by his own mother. So Nezhno, having experienced bitter rejection and hostility from the Wakandans began to yearn for the X-Men and the life he shared with them. This is the sort of situational writing, the creation of circumstances, I am trying to call attention to when I mention white writer's choice/white reader's preference. The way I see it, the white writer chose to write Nezhno's story so that it could not possibly conclude any other way except that to be expected and possibly preferred by the predominant X-Fan readership, many of whom probably couldn't care less if Nezhno ever appeared in another X-book just so long as the character wasn't ever accepted in Wakanda as a Wakandan.
By the way, I'd always believed it was the female mutant who carried and passed on the mutant gene. In Nezhno's case, it appears he received his mutant gene from his Russian father. Is this so?
I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet. The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad. I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t.
@ Everybody: there's more than one kind of A-list.
Everybdy knows who Blade is now. They might not know there is a comic book about the character, but they know about Blade as a multimedia entity. To me that's actually a bigger deal than being a-list in the bizarro world of comic book fans.
Storm has her own ride at Great Adventure, girls and women dress up as her every holloween but she struggles to get speaking time in the several books she appears in.
The world is about to be introduced to War Machine in Iron Man 2 and even if the character is as well recieved as I think he going to be (has Don Chedle EVER been bad in a movie?) I won't be holding my breath waiting to see him get more shine from Marvel outside of being(at best) Steve Roger's second in command in the Secret Avengers.
You can't make the 100,000 odd aging fanboys open thier minds. Just go around them I say.
I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.
Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor." Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.
Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."
Instead we get this....
([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])
...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!
I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet. The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad. I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t.
Vic!
As always, it's good to be back.
And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.
Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and confused...so completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet." More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.
Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.
Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.
And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters. Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.
I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.
Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor." Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.
Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."
@ Everybody: there's more than one kind of A-list.
Everybdy knows who Blade is now. They might not know there is a comic book about the character, but they know about Blade as a multimedia entity. To me that's actually a bigger deal than being a-list in the bizarro world of comic book fans.
Storm has her own ride at Great Adventure, girls and women dress up as her every holloween but she struggles to get speaking time in the several books she appears in.
The world is about to be introduced to War Machine in Iron Man 2 and even if the character is as well recieved as I think he going to be (has Don Chedle EVER been bad in a movie?) I won't be holding my breath waiting to see him get more shine from Marvel outside of being(at best) Steve Roger's second in command in the Secret Avengers.
You can't make the 100,000 odd aging fanboys open thier minds. Just go around them I say.
Exactly Vic.
f*ck their "A" list!
I can only be but so concerned about other peoples negative opinions before I lose interest.
T'Challa is already "A" list as far as I'm concerned. I trust that the business end of Marvel knows that they have to diversify their product.
Catering to the current dominant comic buyers is actually an impediment to the growth of the American comic industry.
Marvel Executives have repeatedly stated that Storm is their most franchised female character but compare the number of her appearances in comics to Wolverine's. As a reader I just want her appearances to be good to me, but as a business, what is Marvel doing with the character? Why can't they translate the characters overall popularity to the inbreed fringe that is comicdom? (OK that is rhetorical. ;D)'
I'm not interested in reading Black Panther interact wth the larger Marvel U if it entails denigrating and diminishing the character and his mythos.
Excelsior!
Daoud
I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.
Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor." Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.
Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."
Instead we get this....
([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])
...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!
Great story ideas Ture!
I will say I was really dissapointed at the portrayal of the Panther God after the way she/he been shown lately.I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet. The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad. I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t.
Exactly Catch22!
Excelsior!
Daoud
Instead we get this....
([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])
...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!
Maberry is writing an intriguing version of The Black Panther...he inherited this story from Mr. Hudlin and did not start it...he has no choice in the fact that Dr. Doom clearly attacked T'Challa and brought him down as written by Hudlin...he also had to acquiesce to his editor who decided to make this a six issue run instead of five at the last minute and place more expository in this issue due again to editorial command. He does not have that much control when one realizes that he has to one finish this story started by another writer, deal with falling sales figures (which changed just 3 issues ago, follow the command of editorial and then write a concise story when his main title seems to have been cancelled). The characterization, pacing and dialogue in the first issue was top notch and deserved props - it seems like he had to rearrange some things after that because of the fact that it sold out....Storm was supposed to cut loose in this issue but if the bosses behind the scenes tell him to push that back then he really has no choice if he wants to keep his job. Think that Maberry is in a tight position and is going to take heat no matter which way he goes...bottom line is that he has brought some strong writing back to the title and sales too.I whole-heartedly agree.
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.
I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.
What?!
Sinjection is back!!
Woohoo!!
Welcome back bruh!
But remember, the test was purity--a singular vision and purpose. It wasn't a test of righteousness, morality, courage, honor or any of these other virtues. Doom passed the test; he didn't beat the PG. Who he beat was Panther. Panther didn't think this about all the implications of a purity test.
But remember, the test was purity--a singular vision and purpose. It wasn't a test of righteousness, morality, courage, honor or any of these other virtues. Doom passed the test; he didn't beat the PG. Who he beat was Panther. Panther didn't think this about all the implications of a purity test.
As far as the Doomcentric covers? Well this is Doomwar, not the War of Doom and The Panthers.
Truth be told I've grown fatigued of the internal strife caused by dissidents like Killmonger, M'baku and now the Desturi. I'm more interested in a unified Wakanda under the leadership of Tchalla the Black Panther and the goddess Storm taking on all comers. That's what I dug about Reggie's World Tour. "Brilliant offensives and counterattacks with equally brilliant parries and ripostes" could have OOOMPH and significant impact. In terms of preference it would depend on the characterizations, the plot and subplots. I have yet to see the necessity (except maybe in sales) of the XMen, FF and though he hasn't appeared yet Deadpool. SI throwing the luv back at you.
But the problem with most Wakandan internal strife plots is that many of those characters just become footnotes. Does anybody remember the cousin who tried to take the throne and was mutated by raw Vibranium? I can't even remember his name.
Thats one of the things that gets most annoying with BP, Writers come in and they introuduce New Chracters, and just say the hell with the established Chracters, and the other events that took place.Like the Hatut Zeraze, who I could have sworn were exiled from Wakanda way before T'challas marriage to Storm. Or N'gassi who comes back in the Storm Mini, and has yet to appear in Maberrry's run at all. On top of that, T'challa had a lot of other villians, with the right writer could easily be revamped and made twice as cool. Like Nakia the ex. Dora Miljae who teamed up with killmonger, or The White Wolf who had LOADS of potential I would still like to see Hatut Zeraze vs. Midnight Angels. Not to mention Nehzno, The Wakandan that should have been fighting to rescue storm in place of freaking Collossus. You don't see a new writer of Spider-man come in just forget about curt connors, or J.Jameson, or what happened in the previous issues. SUre they create other villians, but they don't completly forget about the ones that are already established. They add to the story instead of revamping it.
Do you mean T'Challa brother Jakara from King Kirby run?
[url]http://www.comicvine.com/jakara/29-34666/[/url]
Thats one of the things that gets most annoying with BP, Writers come in and they introuduce New Chracters, and just say the hell with the established Chracters, and the other events that took place.Like the Hatut Zeraze, who I could have sworn were exiled from Wakanda way before T'challas marriage to Storm. Or N'gassi who comes back in the Storm Mini, and has yet to appear in Maberrry's run at all. On top of that, T'challa had a lot of other villians, with the right writer could easily be revamped and made twice as cool. Like Nakia the ex. Dora Miljae who teamed up with killmonger, or The White Wolf who had LOADS of potential I would still like to see Hatut Zeraze vs. Midnight Angels. Not to mention Nehzno, The Wakandan that should have been fighting to rescue storm in place of freaking Collossus. You don't see a new writer of Spider-man come in just forget about curt connors, or J.Jameson, or what happened in the previous issues. SUre they create other villians, but they don't completly forget about the ones that are already established. They add to the story instead of revamping it.
Vic!
As always, it's good to be back.
And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.
Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and confused...so completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet." More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.
Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.
Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.
And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters. Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.
Sin, what up!
I actually haven't posted in a while here on the HEF.
I try to post only when something particularly good moves me. Thus my praise for "Flags of Our Fathers" and The BP Animated series.
But I come back and you post. When new people post on CBR and show an appreciation for a post of mine, I tell them to check out old threads I've commented in, espesially the closed ones, and hope they see your posts. :)
Good to see you!
Excelsior!
Daoud
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...
I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.
Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom. And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse. And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.
Here's the thing; this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.
Now sinjection's systems are fully operational; locked and loaded. It's very good to see you both, both of you keeping the faith not only with our T'Challa and our Ororo but in the comicbook entertainment medium overall. The thorny issues crop up now and again regarding the characterization of not only the principals of the BLACK PANTHER (T'Challa and Ororo) but indeed, with most if not all black characters/characters of color in the industry and what Vic so fittingly dubbed "the bizarro world of comicbook fans." It's through your contributions (solid, factual information and opinions shared with intelligence and good humor) that we HEF members are all reconnected to the true intent of comicbooks...escapist entertainment.
Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.
To briefly address in this post the many fine points you made in your comments regarding DW supreme, I'll say that I've been both entertained and tortured by this story. I'll expound in the next post. Seven and 4Sake, you honor me with your comments. I can only hope that what I tried to convey about the often neglectful and/or shoddy way black characters are regarded both by creators and consumers is clear enough. I do ramble on and on. Be sure to read comments posted by Daoud and Magneto X if you can. There might even be a few surviving comments posted by Yaw to be found. Right now, Jenn, Vic, 4Sake, Umbra, RolandJP, Shadey are putting on a masterful display. Their posts are carrying on what I tried to do and then some.
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...
I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.
DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.
It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.
I would expect many denizens of the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - especially those who have an open hostility for the Black Panther and Wakanda - to root for Doom. That Maberry has written a T'Challa (a character we all know to be a master strategist and brilliant warrior possessed of genius-level intellect) to be caught so completely off guard...that Maberry has written a Storm so powerless that at one point, she seemed to be cowering before Doom cradling the Queen Mother of Wakanda in a protective embrace...that Maberry has written a proud warrior king - who didn't need the Avenger's help to knock the shiznit out of Mephisto and rip the heart from his chest - running to the X-Men of all people for help... these developments were entirely unexpected and as evidenced, largely unappreciated by many Storm/T'Challa/Wakanda fans. As Ture so eloquently put it, this hasn't been a pitched battle between equals but something so much to the contrary it almost defies description. This is Wakanda, a highly advanced warrior nation that had remained unconquered for over a 1000 years. To see Doom so easily accomplish what even the Skrulls could not all the while showing utter contempt for T'Challa, Storm and the Wakandans - some of those Wakandans being traitorous fools who addressed this "outworlder" as "my lord" - is very, very hard to stomach. Maberry is giving every Wakanda-hating fanboy/girl exactly what they want. Doom has become the champion of this story.
I'm with you supreme, as I usually am. However, this stunning victory I expect Shuri and her allies to enjoy over Doom at the climax/conclusion of this story needs to be such that it has significant, long-lasting effect that will reverberate through the whole of the MU. Doom surely won't lose his life, but as a Panther/Storm/Wakanda fan I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.
<<I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast. >>
Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom. And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse. And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.
Here's the thing; this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.
Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom. And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse. And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.
Here's the thing; this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.
Doom once attempted to skip out on a debt he owed Luke Cage for services rendered; Cage - acting as his own collection agency - broke into FF headquarters, procured intercontinental transportation, traveled to Latveria to beard the "great and mighty" Doom in his own den. Cage found Doom arrogant as usual and recalitrant as well. Indignant, Cage set upon Doom whereupon he proceeded to pummel the miscreant in the chest region. Doom's vaunted armor cracked, actually gave way under Cage's pounding. The damage to Doom's armor left the villain stunned and defenseless and thus, vulnerable to an attack by a third party having a grievance to settle with Doom. Cage defeated this new player, saving Doom's bacon. Afterward, Doom actually tried to secure the services of Cage as his bodyguard; Cage declined. Naturally, those "Doombutts" in the larger comicbook-reading demographic were nettled and some went so far as to suggest the Doom cage confronted wasn't actually Doom at all, but a Doombot instead. To my knowledge, the story of Doom's beatdown at the hands of Cage in his own Latverian crib has not been retconned. Doom's humiliation at the fists of Luke Cage has stood as canon for years. Of course, this story has been largely ignored by the larger comicbook-reading demographic.
Traveling back to the U.S. after tracking a drug cartel to France, an exhausted Cloak paused on a Latverian mountain; his passengers (Dagger and her companion Bill Clayton) emerged from the folds of Cloak's Cape Of Darkness. Doom happened to be working on a diabolical weapon - using intense light as its power source - at the exact moment Dagger stepped out of the Dark Dimension. Attracted to and fascinated by this light, Dagger persuaded a wary Cloak to investigate. As written, the Cloak character (always eager to please Dagger ::)) relented and the trio of travlers found themselves the guests of Doom. Soon, they discovered how Doom planned to use the project he'd been working on and decided to stop him. Ultimately, it was the young Cloak who confronted Doom in the castle chamber housing this weapon of mass destruction, and who bravely enveloped Doom in his great cape knowing Doom would unleash his armor's weapons to gain freedom from the Dark Dimension. As Doom prepared to do just that, Cloak pivoted and opened his cape at the exact moment Doom opened fire. Instead of finding a target in the Dark Dimension however, Doom's weapons destroyed his nearly-completed weapon. Cloak had single-handedly defeated Dr. Doom. Of course, the larger comicbook-reading demographic dismissed this story as "having never happened" or that Cloak likely defeated a Doombot, not the real deal.
Recently, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo went toe to toe. I would guess we all know how that worked out for Doom.
You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? Granted, the title of this tale is DOOMWAR. Daredevil never confronted the Kingpin in a series called "KINGPINWAR". Daredevil was never set up as the "maybe-antagonist" in his battles with the Kingpin as the Panther, Storm and Shuri have been in their battle against Doom - the only successful invader and conqueror of Wakanda. As far as the larger comicbook-reading demographic was concerned, the battle lines were clearly defined when it was Kingpin vs DD. In the case of DW however, more than a few members of that demographic see Doom as a noble figure and relish the fact that T'Challa and Wakanda are finally "getting what they deserve". It's not enough that yet another Black Panther title has been cancelled, they want T'Challa eradicated. As you alluded to and once again Kip, your observation buttresses what I've been saying about "writers choice/reader's preference". The "next Doom writer" can always satisfy the "reader's preference" in this regard.
And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.
And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it. But that's not the point of the story. If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods. ::)
<<You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? >>
Yeah; when Kingpin found out who DD really was--no holds bar dismembering of his life
And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....
Yeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending.
Now if any of you X-Men would like to assist let me kno & we'll come pick up & etc.. Also as person who reads the X-Men have a prob. with only 3 of her friends came because majority of X-Men on the island hate living on it & would gladly leave it for even an hour even if meant going to fight a war...
Also a few things just came as unnecessary to me like S'yan getting shot & him may or may not being dead because killing/making it look like he may die (again) & killing T'Challa & Shuri main/current father-figure when there father T'Chaka is dead & when T'Challa bio. mother is dead.. It come of as unnecessary & annoying.. It like how many parents do these ppl need to lose.. It doesn't better the story or there character development.. I felt the same way about Zuri death.. If you just need to bring a supporting cast member or royal out of limbo just to be kill then just used one : that a who death still can some effect the the main character/s & who story petty much run it course. Like Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru, Omoro & etc..
I'd didn't have a prob. with W'Kabi or M'Baku deaths because the both came off as a means to a ends.. W'Kabi had to die or either early retirement for Shuri to became both the T'Challa #2/#3 &to be the main Regent of the big W..
M'Baku was a black male in a Gorilla/Ape outfit.. yeah not the most well thought off concept.. Plus his Death open of a few possible plots such as Ce'Athauna/QDJ coming back, leading the Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult & geting powers. She bringing lasting peace to Wakanda or atleast to the Panther tribe & to Jabari tribe.. Also you could build up a rivalry & friendship between her & Shuri similar to that to BP/Iron Man or better a Gaara/Naruto like friendship & rivalry..
Which leads me to my next point.. Another prob. I have with a story like DoomWar & or BP SI is that taking over/ attacking Panther Cult doesn't it = taking over Wakanda because there are 17 other tribes/Cults in Wakanda.. Taking over 1 tribe even with it being the best/strongest doesn't mean taking the whole nation..
So nice nod to what the White Gorilla Cult, N'Jadaka tribe, Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult, mountain tribe & etc are doing when ppl attack Panther Cult would be nice.. (just a small panel of them killing/fighting some skrulls or Desturi when they show up at there house saying we here to take over)...
Also so far I'm disappointed with the lack of Namor (but more than likely that not JM fault), the lack of Ka-Zar (& Shanna) because they have an alliance with T & O saying if you attack one you attack the other..
Also I was disappointed the way the loyalist vs non -loyalist to the house of Bashenga/T´Chaka/T'Challa battle ended. It seemed kind of rushed.. I wish something cool happen like T'Challa,, Ororo, Shuri, S'yan & Queen Mom were riding on top of a Prowler or in a N'Yami class battle cruiser given both (with T & O on prowler & S, S & QM in the cruiser) with T'Challa Ororo & Shuri give a speech to sway the ppl to stop the fighting and saying something to the effect of there will be changes here & etc but 1st we must take action against Doom.. long live Wakanda
What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently?
Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.
Maybe the Panther God demands self reliance from his avatar (BP)only. The proof of fitness is not a one time deal it has to be proven at every turn. The Azanian incident was provoked due to T'Challa inaction rather than Bast having any especial interest in black Azanians. The PG flagged T'Challa "if you know that what's going on in Azania is wrong why aren't you doing something about it??" Maybe the PG wanted to know what would T'Challa do if she were to take away her influence (gifts) over him. And now in Doomwar the PG wants to know what is T'Challa going to do to take what is his back.Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.
But then, how would that explain Bast's actions in Black Panther:Cry The Accursed Country ?
In that story, Bast was so disgusted with T'Challa's seeming lack of action against the racist regime of Azania, that she abandoned him and entered the body of a black Azanian political prisoner being tortured at the time. Possessed by Bast, that prisoner then went on a killing spree within Azania which terrified the white populace, excited the black populace and gave both reason to believe that the killings were being committed by the Black Panther preparatory to a possible invasion by the Wakandan military.
The black Azanians were unable to throw off the yoke of oppression visited upon them by the white minority. Black Azanians knew of the Black Panther, the Black Panther cult, and the might of Wakanda, but black Azanians didn't worship Bast. Why then should Bast take up the cause of people who didn't worship her? On the other hand, T'Challa was able to defeat 5 white super-powered agents of Azania without the aid and guidance of the Panther God, proving that he was indeed "fit enough to survive" on his own.
Maybe the Panther God demands self reliance from his avatar (BP)only. The proof of fitness is not a one time deal it has to be proven at every turn.
The Azanian incident was provoked due to T'Challa inaction rather than Bast having any especial interest in black Azanians.
And now in Doomwar the PG wants to know what is T'Challa going to do to take what is his back.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it.
If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods. ::)
It is just the norm for the rules of magic; if you know the answer, the word, pass the test, then you get a pass/you win. This is within the very old tradition of magic questions/quests..
And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....
Oh yeah. I had completely forgotten about Polaris. Thanks again, 4Sake.QuoteYeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending.
Questions about DW#2 which came to mind after I read it were:
- How was the Wakandan war party (T'Challa, Shuri, and a significant force of Dora Milaje) able to penetrate "Utopia" air space, land and deploy without being detected by the X-Men?
For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?
Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?
In trying to decipher the ending of DW#2, I get the idea that Doom had already fooled Bast with his hypocrisy and despicable deceit, dressed, procured the Vibranium, and simply wanted to hang around until T'Challa arrived so that he could twist the knife as it were...subjecting T'Challa to a torturous choice - either give him the key to the last lock or watch him blow Ororo's head off. It was just another example of Doom being the bastard he is and that Bast through her "judgement", allowed him to continue to be.
Here, I think we get a sense of the order of Cyclops' priorities. T'Challa allowed his wife and his mother to suffer torment and arrest at the hands of the Desturi because as the former Black Panther put it: "I had to choose between my wife's life and the future of my entire country...I chose my country." Cyclops is recognized - recognized by the X-Men at any rate - as the leader of mutant kind; and that reminds me - if I may digress for a moment. What happened to Storm being "the most important mutant on Earth" due to her marriage to T'Challa (a homosapien, not homosuperior, and King of one of the world's wealthiest, mightiest, most influential nations) as stated by Prof X on the eve of the WEDDING OF THE CENTURY? Once again, we see the wisdom of Ture. The WEDDING story was written by Hudlin. Thus, the story is likely considered a "mistake"...an abomination is more like it... by those denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" who have been persistent and relentless in their objections to everything Hudlin has done and will ever do in the comicbook industry.
Back to the point, as the "leader" of mutantkind, Cyclops likely felt he could not commit any of his people to Storm's rescue as mutantkind is on the verge of extinction and fighting an enemy determined to wipe them out. It would make more sense however, for Cyclops to have sent a few of his people to free one of Earth's mightiest mutants so that she could take part in their war of survival. I don't read anything connected to Marvel's X-franchise, but I don't doubt that Storm is "in there pitching". X-writers seem all too willing to ignore Storm's marriage to the Black Panther and her regal duties as Queen of Wakanda. Of course as we now know, Cyclops left the door open for Storm's closest friends in the X-Men (Wolverine, Colossus, and the great Nightcrawler) to assist in her rescue.
I agree here as well. It's sort of sad to see W'Kabi go. Aside from Zuri, W'Kabi was the last of what seemed to be T'Challa's most intimate and trusted advisors. Taku is dead isn't he? Zatana was killed very early in Panther's Rage. At the moment, T'Challa's most trusted and closest advisors appear the be the beautiful women in his life; Ramonda, Ororo, Shuri, and Aneka.
This probably goes to trying to keep the story from developing too many branches and becoming bogged down by complexities. I would think however, that Namor would be eager to learn why Doom ostensibly framed him, seeming to make it appear that he was responsible for the near-fatal attack on the Black Panther.
But hatred was not his motive, nor did it taint his motive--all he did, he did because he honestly believed his course was the only course for mankind to survive. That was the purity test. He wasn't trying to take the metal to inflict vengence or hatred on others. He took it, because he believed he was right. Yes, he may despise Richard and T, but he didn't act on that hatred in this matter, and this matter (getting the metal) was the only thing being tested..
Perhaps she didn't devour Doom for the same reason she didn't devour Shuri.. As a continuation of the test.
What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently?
CLOAK and DAGGER one shot:
The artwork was very nice. Mark Brooks renders a very nice Cloak. The coloring was strong as well. I liked the way Dagger actually appeared to exude "light". I wasn't especially pleased with Tyrone's hair coloring. I liked the braids very much. I once suggested that since Ty and Tandy have been on the run for so long, that Ty probably has not had much opportunity to visit the barber. For that matter, Tyrone would have to expend a lot of effort to make himself appear normal for the duration of his haircut.
Unfortunately, I felt the story was lacking somewhat, but it wasn't the worst I've seen. I do like the fact that Tyrone was involved with a young lady other than Tandy. While at the CBR, I suggested that Tyrone should get a new female love interest, one resembling Rihanna. Lo and behold, Tia did have a little Rihanna "something" about her. I read some of the comments posted by a few CBR members who'd read the book. One member was a bit put out because this time the script was flipped. It wasn't Tyrone pining for Tandy. After her allowing herself to be kissed by Spider-man while in the presence of Cloak, after carrying on flirtatiously with Bill Clayton, this time it was Tandy who had to deal with the possibility that Tyrone had found someone else. I believe their relationship has been established and now for the future benefit of Cloak and Dagger, it should be put on the back burner. No more stories about Cloak's unrequited love for Dagger. No more insisting that Tyrone and Tandy be rendered in an actual kiss or more. I sense a reluctance in writers to write something like that because seeing black Tyrone kissing blonde-haired/ blue-eyed, pure and glowing white Tandy might not sit too well with some denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans".
I really enjoyed how they depicted Cloak's teleportation effect and how his "darkness" is able to extend beyond his cape to ensnare an opponent and draw that opponent into the cape. No more needing to extend the cape over his target. I also appreciated how Cloak is able to will himself to a normal appearance. A flesh and blood Tyrone has many, many possibilities.
What frustrates me is the following:
- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.
- Darkness is the natural state. Light is transitory. When our sun burns itself out, it will become a black hole and darkness will claim the part of the universe it once illuminated. People have to light torches, use flashlights or lanterns to see their way through dark passages. The space around them is lighted, but all around them darkness holds sway. Cloak should be far more powerful than Dagger and yet, she has been able to absorb Cloak's powers - albeit with Tyrone's help in one instance. Cloak has not yet been written to his fullest potential and really, has not been fully developed as a complete character IMO.
- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.
According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.
Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.
So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.
Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.
I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?
Because T'Challa make the best planes/jets/aircrafts & etc (weather its speed, stealth or what have you) in the Marvel U a fact that rarely mention. :-[ Which is badly written statments like this make no sense when T'Challa has aircrafts that can get ppl half and world in about 20 mins (& some under 20mins) Plus T'Challa has way better tech than on Utopia.
For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?
Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?
Think we are supposed go with that the heroes leaned of the Desturi around or right before Secret Invasion & got busy with the with the other attacks on the nation& on the world (WWH, Death of Steve R, FF storyline, Shadow King, Skrulls, Morlun & etc.) before they could find. out who the leaders of the group were.. Then got a little more busy with T'Challa dieing for a min.. Or it could been before that like right after Civil War because the plot of who blow up the the NY Wakanda embassy hasn't been followed up so it come have them who planted the bombs...
Non of the currently x-writes are really big Storm fans (some of them like her ok. but just not big fans so if don't feel like writing her or feel they can't find her voice then they don't write her), The same thing as happen lot of x-men most well known characters..(Kurt- who was just killed, Peter- who mostly says ''da'' these days, Gambit, Jubilee.. the list goes on.) Who only show when they have to & are mostly badly written in Uncanny X-Men.. Yost write her well & writes T'Challa well, but his Wakanda suck, but he going to leave X-books for a while to focus on the new Avengers cartoon(which T'Challa will be a main cast member in..)..
Wolverine & Storm are close freinds, but not as close freinds & she has closer freinds than him. alot ppl. make them out to be.. IMO it like some fans try to make there friendship closer than it really is.. Mostly because those horrible X-movie & because some fans want they to get it on.. When Logan & Storm has never been hinted to be dating or sleeping together in any 616 X-Men book or Wolverine book I ever read.. In fact it been the opposite he said in BP that they never had sex, but wanted to & had felling for her, he says in Wolverine he feeling for her & in Wolverine Weapon X we he talking to all his past loves & imporant women in his life they (He & Storm) talk about Yukio wanting bang him & Yokio & his sex life/relationship.. But you still see ppl swear up & down they got it on..
No Taku is alvie & he still living in & running the Techno-Jungle.. He was last in Fantastic Four #546 I think.. I was also, but I see Shuri take over his role in a more proactive way once T'Challa become BP again..
I'd say is one of his advisors now Zawavari. Also if Syan is really dead & Zuri is dead I guess the Panther God could maybe bring them back to lofe some how sense she/he is a god..
New Exilesstory as a blueprint of how T'Challa's and Shuri's relationship should proceed. Shuri makes a beautiful...and I do mean BEAUTIFUL Black Panther. If circumstances are such that she does relinquish the mantle and return it to T'Challa, she should remain an active adventurer, developing a unique identity of her own. IMO, Shuri is a great character. Zawavari is a fun and entertaining character. Now that T'Challa has embraced the benefits of mysticism, Zawavari would be positioned to advise him in the future.
<<Bast is either very wise and is working out her own plan in very mysterious ways or she is an idiot>>
Ah, there is a third option--Bast isn't real. GRIN.
Since JM invented the test, and he invented the means to pass the test and determined that Doom mets the criteria the writer sets, then one could conclude the problem is the writer didn't word the test/arguments clear enough for everyone.
I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?
Whatever floats your boat.
Yeah she did look like Rihanna lol... Also I think they will have them kiss at some point, I'm not really sure why they haven't yet.. but I'M indifferent if they do our not..
What frustrates me is the following:
- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.
I'm not really sure. I think some writers.. write as the Cloak on Ty is the source of his powers & not he him self is the source of the powers (which kind goes back are they mutants or they mutates thing)
- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.
According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.
Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.
That changes from writer to it changed atleast 3-5 times sense they were taken out of limbo last year.. Some prefer they are mutants & some want they to be mutates.. If there next app. is written by a writer who like them better as mutants they be latent mutants ..
IMO the best thing to do is make them both (that why is stop changing every time they re-app.) & say something to the effect of that they have latent x-genes (which would make them latent mutants).. & when D'Spayre infused portions of his soul in they by them being force to take the drug D-Lite (he was the real creator of the drug).. actived there latent/inactive x-gene which would make they both since x-gene is now activated but now amplified & change by D'Spayre power..
The further put it to rest then show what there latent mutants would look like activated in another way like by a machine or something.. You then show Cloak being able to teleport by bending the light around his body and Dagger being able to generate & firer dark energy daggers for her hands..
Since Doctor Nemesis is petty smart you get character that are much smart then him in general & in those fields.. So show T'Challa, Reed R. (both MUCH smarter than him in general), Prof.X (much smarter than him when it come to mutant dna), Doctor Voodoo & Doctor Strange (both MUCH smarter than him when it come to magic & demons powers.. like D'Spayre.)
That imo should be enuff canon wise to prove that both mutants & mutates..
[/quote]So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.
Me to & this story felt like it was being of a mini or ongoing & not a 1 shot because it just ended when Cloak & Dagger looking like they were about to go at it lol & left those other plots open like where Tia come from, who were the ppl that kidnap Cloak & brainwashed Tia, Dagger possibly continuing a friendship with Storm..
I think what is disturbing the fans here is the fact that Mayberry has given such a good showing to Doom that its hard to imagine at this point that any victory by Storm and the Panthers is possible without more humiliation or loss for the alleged heroes (Storm and the Panthers win but one of them dies, Storm and the Panthers win but one of them is maimed, Storm and the Panthers win but Wakanda gets blown up).
We aren't seeing the unqualified victories we are used to seeing heroes have.
On the other hand the Desturi have been routed and T'Challa is stronger than ever.
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.
The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.
Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.
So very true. I haven't read an Avengers comic since 2008. Do the Avengers still use the Quinjet as their primary means of transportation? Now that you mention it, I can easily see how stealth aircraft could land on Utopia and how highly-skilled warriors could stealthily deploy without being detected. The fact that a Wakandan force of such size could do so on Utopia, a island occupied by highly-skilled mutant warriors who because of their present dire circumstances must be on high alert 24/7, says something about the skill of Wakandan technology and warrior technique.
It would be great if some X-writer working the story of the mutant's life and death struggle against those determined to exterminate them would allow T'Challa to fight beside Ororo when she returns to help the X-Men. Nothing like that will happen of course. If some X-writers are lukewarm to writing Storm they are probably frigid to the idea of writing T'Challa. That attitude by those writers - if indeed it exists - perpetuates hostility against the Black Panther and the idea that he only cares about himself and Wakanda in that order, and cares very little for his wife, Storm. It would probably annoy many an X-fan if T'Challa insisted on fighting at his wife's side in her battle for the survival of her species and herself. Of course T'Challa will be a no-show. X-fans will take that opportunity to rail about how he doesn't love Storm and that their MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY should end. Too bad. Nightcrawler was one of the best characters ever created. That he could be killed off only intensifies my disdain for and disinterest in anything X-Men related. How can they kill off characters like Synch, Phoenix, Nightcrawler...kill Colossus, bring him back perhaps to kill him again at some point in the future...how can they kill off great characters like the aforementioned and hang on to stupid characters like Anole? I don't understand.
I'm happy to see that "RoLo" nonsense seems to have run its course. Those "RoLo" people got their satisfaction in Marvel's Ultimate line. From what little I know of that situation, Ororo chased after Wolverine like she was in heat and the writing made it known that Wolverine could have had Ororo anytime, anyway he wanted her. The thing is, he didn't want Ororo at all. He had the hots for Jean Grey. It seems to me that many X-fans are only interested in seeing Storm disgraced and misused....or a homosexual. I'm sure or at least I would hope, that had they been present when T'Challa asked Cyclops for help against the Desturi, both Jean Grey and Kitty Pryde would have been on their way to Wakanda before Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine could blink one time. Jean and Ororo are sisters.
Very good to see Taku is still alive and well and living in Wakanda. It would be fantastic if Shuri and T'Challa developed a close loving, trusting and protective relationship. I would hate it if writers used Claremont's New Exiles story as a blueprint of how T'Challa's and Shuri's relationship should proceed. Shuri makes a beautiful...and I do mean BEAUTIFUL Black Panther. If circumstances are such that she does relinquish the mantle and return it to T'Challa, she should remain an active adventurer, developing a unique identity of her own. IMO, Shuri is a great character. Zawavari is a fun and entertaining character. Now that T'Challa has embraced the benefits of mysticism, Zawavari would be positioned to advise him in the future..
Tia and "friends" would be interesting as recurring threats to Cloak and Dagger. This duo has fought every type of foe from street thugs, pimps, drug pushers/dealers/cartels, to Dr. Doom, extraterrestrials, the Beyonder, and Mephisto. Both characters have yet to be developed to their fullest potential and in my view, have proven their chops in spite of this limitation. Luke Cage started out as a Hero for Hire. He was in it for the money and took on whatever/whomever he was being paid to confront, which was not necessarily pimps, chickenhawks (lying in wait for young, hapless runaways), drug pushers/cartels, and crime families. These are criminal types and stories highly relevant and needing to be skillfully told. Cloak and Dagger are perfectly designed for this type of action.
They are not like Spider-Man and Daredevil. They are costumed, yes; however, not as garishly outfitted as Spider-Man and Daredevil. A reader could actually believe Cloak and Dagger would scare most street thug-types out of their wits before they even felt the sting of their powers. Factor in the way they can literally appear out of shadow to launch their sudden and devastating attacks and there is no reason to believe street thugs would have a greater fear of Cloak and Dagger than they would of Spider-Man and Daredevil. Some writer simply needs to fully develop these characters and use them correctly. There's no reason why they shouldn't be a successful ongoing.
You know...writers have never had a problem writing Logan deep-kissing Ororo, Gambit kissing Ororo, Forge in intimate situations with Ororo, Danny Rand kissing Misty Knight and in fact, I remember seeing scans of the bedroom aftermath of one of Danny's and Misty's lovemaking sessions. Danny was lying in the bed looking like the cat who ate the canary; Misty was up and out of frame getting showered and dressed or something. I believe there was some sort of discussion about "pancakes" or something and Misty did not seem to be amused. The bedroom scene looked as if a superhero battle had taken place. IIRC, there was a broken lamp and holes in the wall which I suspect were put there by Misty while in the throes of erotic ecstasy.
When it comes to Bishop and Sage moving beyond having dinner together to "doing-the-do", never happened. Synch was kissed by Monet once and then he was blown to bits. Later, Jaime Maddrox would "hit a homerun" with Monet. Celia Reyes was written as falling head-over-heels in love with Hank McCoy who was essentially a "manimal" at that time. A story was written showing Celia smiling contentedly beside her blue bigfoot husband and their half-bigfoot children. Angel Salvadore kissed Barnell Bohusk on a dare, but eventually developed genuine feelings for him which lead to her being impregnated by him during underaged sex while she was intoxicated. Bohusk looked like a dead baby bird one might see lying on a sidewalk. But to this date, writers refuse to write Tandy and Tyrone sharing a kiss. They had no problem writing Tyrone chasing Tandy around like a lovesick puppy while she flirted openly with Spider-man, Bill Clayton, and any other male taken with her blonde-haired, blue-eyed feminine charms. "Writer's choice; reader's preference".
I don't care if the issue of romance between Cloak and Dagger ever comes up again. I do know that portraying him as chasing Dagger's skirt and her not giving him the time of day, portraying Dagger as an "angel of light" while Cloak was the "demon of darkness" was demeaning to the character of Cloak and diminished him as a character. I would be happy to see the two acting as they were created to.
What frustrates me is the following:
- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.
I'm not really sure. I think some writers.. write as the Cloak on Ty is the source of his powers & not he him self is the source of the powers (which kind goes back are they mutants or they mutates thing)
You've nailed it. Some writers have tried to make the cape the power. Not so. Tyrone is the power; his body is the actual portal to the Dark Dimension. The cloak he wears is simply a tool he can use to focus his power in a fixed area, although his darkness is capable of extending far beyond the confines of his cape. I believe Claremont understood this perfectly. In a New Mutants story, Sunspot and Wolfsbane somehow acquired the powers of Cloak and Dagger. However, as Claremont wrote it, Tyrone's power (the darkness) never seemed to fully take leave of Tyrone. It gathered itself to him and tried to coalesce around him. Cloak's darkness should not be looked upon as evil. The Russian mutant Darkstar - Nezhno's cousin...half-sister maybe? :D... derives her powers from the Dark Dimension as well; she's not portrayed as being evil or demonic.
- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.
According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.
Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.
That changes from writer to it changed atleast 3-5 times sense they were taken out of limbo last year.. Some prefer they are mutants & some want they to be mutates.. If there next app. is written by a writer who like them better as mutants they be latent mutants ..
IMO the best thing to do is make them both (that why is stop changing every time they re-app.) & say something to the effect of that they have latent x-genes (which would make them latent mutants).. & when D'Spayre infused portions of his soul in they by them being force to take the drug D-Lite (he was the real creator of the drug).. actived there latent/inactive x-gene which would make they both since x-gene is now activated but now amplified & change by D'Spayre power..
The further put it to rest then show what there latent mutants would look like activated in another way like by a machine or something.. You then show Cloak being able to teleport by bending the light around his body and Dagger being able to generate & firer dark energy daggers for her hands..
Since Doctor Nemesis is petty smart you get character that are much smart then him in general & in those fields.. So show T'Challa, Reed R. (both MUCH smarter than him in general), Prof.X (much smarter than him when it come to mutant dna), Doctor Voodoo & Doctor Strange (both MUCH smarter than him when it come to magic & demons powers.. like D'Spayre.)
That imo should be enuff canon wise to prove that both mutants & mutates..
Yep, I think making them both is the way to go. I think there is a case to be made for Mandrill and Nekra being both as well. Mandrill's white father and Nekra's black mother were both exposed to radiation (or something), that altered something in their DNA. Mandrill's father wasn't a mutant, neither was Nekra's mother, but as a result of their exposure to that radiation, their children were born with anomalies which marked them as mutants.
So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.
Me to & this story felt like it was being of a mini or ongoing & not a 1 shot because it just ended when Cloak & Dagger looking like they were about to go at it lol & left those other plots open like where Tia come from, who were the ppl that kidnap Cloak & brainwashed Tia, Dagger possibly continuing a friendship with Storm..
Good ideas. Cloak and Dagger should develop a friendship with Storm and the Black Panther. I once suggested that T'Challa could be a supporter of the duo, founding an inner city community center where Tyrone and Tandy might actually work as activity coordinators. They could move out of that broken-down church...does that church even have a working toilet? I hope so...and into a modest apartment. I don't think such a move would cramp their style as vigilantes of the night.
Whatever floats your boat.
:D I suppose all I need now are two oars and a lake to row my boat in :D
Whatever floats your boat.
:D I suppose all I need now are two oars and a lake to row my boat in :D
Too much work. Rent a speedboat instead. Impress the babes.
Sinjection1 you're a master scribe and researcher. Your archives must run deep through the hidden passages of the techno jungle. I am humbled by your comments and shall strive to continue to contribute to this forum in a manner worthy of yours and all the other great posters respect here at the HEF.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade?
Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting!
Yes, most of the teams do.
I agree, I would kind of like to see T'Challa or atleast some Wakanda warriors fight , but I REALLY WORRIED how they would be written.
Hey Anole isn't that bad :D
Also they killed Kurt because he's a popluar character/with a some what big fan base, also for shock valuebecause maybe some of head ppl. the x-office thought mean somthing, but I'd be shocked if he not back 1 or 2 years..
....Synch was kind of recently brought in Necrosha.. They story was left open so he could have survived.. It really up to the next writer to decided if he and alot of other formerly dead mutants did or not. (they were brought back as transmode virus & were being controlled by the main villain of the story Selene.)
I agree & my picks for her new id are Caracal or Serval(both African cats)
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.
Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine. Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.
Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.
The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.
Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.
I agree, but I'm don't think a ongoing with just them would do to tell in this current comic market.. It probably be best to make it a team book add 1 or 2 more popluar characters that would fit that setting..
Very true.. I wonder that how Mercedes & Daniel got that baby they now have one the way.. (Also he proposed & she accepted.. I think he did before she told him that she was pregnant)..
Also Remy & Ororo kissing as very baly written moment that didn't make sense to & glad it still being ignored like alot of other stuff from x-treme x-men...
Very true, I Think the closer they got was here :
([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11768/921784-uncx514_int_15_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/uncx514_int_15/105-921784/[/url])
Also I they finally let Patriot & Kate Bishop kiss, but I'm petty sure she & Speed kissed 1sted..
Also Cage & Jewel still kiss sometimes & she being drawn less homely looking lately imo.. ;D Also he going to be leading/running the Thunderbolts & been hinted to leading a Avengers team..
There have been like 2 or 3 Darkstars created recently some I wouldn't be shocked if one of the was his sister or cousin or aunt or etc
Yeah, they are still consider mutants & both have been popping up alot lately.. Nekra has a daughter now (the father is Grim Reaper) name Death Reaper.
Also every time I see Mandrill & Nekra I can't help but thinking it crazy there concept of actually got published.. Ok black child come out white & with anger/rage power (ok not horrible but not great) & white boesn't come black, but come out looking like a monkey & has rape powers (Really Marvel Really??)
Thats good question about the toilet lol :D.. , but do they need to eat? I wonder can they just live off there dark & light energies. And I remember read that idea of yours on cbr..
It's good to see that although T'Challa is an Avenger no longer, his genius is still impacting on the team.
I see your point here. X-writers and X-geeks/freaks....now that was unkind of me, wasn't it? ;) X-fans, I'll call them X-fans...seem to harbor a visceral hostility toward the Black Panther and indeed, black mutants not named Storm. Look what's happened to Bishop. By excluding T'Challa from mutantkind's battle for survival, the X-writer can make it appear and the X-fan may more readily ass-ume that the Black Panther doesn't love Storm. If some X-writer did happen to include T'Challa in this battle, chances are excellent that T'Challa would be written poorly and X-fans would absolutely resent T'Challa's involvement. The Panther would be damned if he did, damned if he didn't.
It could be that I am being too harsh on Anole based on his appearance and what little I know of the character. When I size Anole up against Synch and Nightcrawler, Anole doesn't just come off wanting; he comes off begging. Anole literally means lizard; his powers are based on the chameleon. Features and abilities of his mutation include: reptilian skin and a spiked "cap" on his head. Anole has the ability to change color (as does Darwin), has the ability to regenerate lost limbs (very similar to Wolverine and X-23, I'd suspect); those regenerated limbs are stronger than the previous limb, but less physically attractive. Anole has wallcrawling abilities (as did Nightcrawler) Anole has the ability to camoflague himself; Nightcrawler was able to blend into shadows and become near invisible under ideal conditions. Like the chameleon from which Anole derives his name and powers, he has a prehensile, sticky tongue. What possible superhero-related endeavor would having a prehensile, sticky tongue be an advantage? I think we all remember or have some idea of what Synch and Nightcrawler could do and how cool they were in doing it. It's very possible that Anole isn't as bad a character as I initially believed him to be, but Anole is no Nightcrawler either. By the way, has Synch been resurrected recently?
Hey! This answers my earlier question. Great news, and if indeed Synch has returned, I would actually buy the X-book in which his resurrection is official and confirmed. I'm unsure of Prodigy's status, but I think with Synch's status unclear at the moment and Tyrone Johnson being classified as non-mutant, there are no U.S. black male mutants represented in Marvel's X-franchise. Synch needs to return.
I like those ideas! Both choices make more sense than did Kasper Cole's "White Tiger" or even Lee/Kirby's original notion of naming T'Challa the "Coal Tiger" before settling on Black Panther. I once had a lengthy exchange with Yoda (or Loren) about this White Tiger business. The tiger is a EuroAsiatic cat usually found in India, China, and Siberia these days. I kept repeating this over and over: "There are no tigers in Africa. There aren't any African wolves either unless you're talking the Denali wolf found in Ethiopia, and that animal more closely resembles a coyote than a European or North American wolf." I was pleased to see that in Black Panther: Flags Of Our Fathers, the English "Howler" agreed with me.
You're right. Limited series runs would likely be better for Cloak and Dagger and - as I often said while posting at "the other place" - the duo should make a stop over in Wakanda --- when things get better that is. Storm has sort of a "big sister" effect on younger mutants, male and female. Storm used to call Colossus "Little Brother". Kitty Pryde attached herself to Storm in a sisterly way and Rogue seemed to develop some sort of kinship with Ororo as well. I think Dagger - who seems to crave a significant friendship outside the partnership she has with Cloak - would benefit from a friendship with Queen Ororo. What really intrigues me about a Cloak/Dagger/Wakanda connection is a possible interaction between Cloak and Zawavari.
Zawavari is possibly the only human being who could spend a significant period of time inside Cloak's pocket dimension without losing his mind. Here's what Zawavari had to say to Aneka when she compared Zawavari's magic to "unholy darkness": "Darkness? What do you know of darkness? I've walked through nightmare lands that would tear the sanity from you. I've squatted in caves in the bowels of the earth to palaver with eyeless toad-things. I've sacrificed my own blood so that I could listen to the faintest whispers of the elder gods."
Zawavari looks to me as if he could be of great help to Cloak in helping him gain greater understanding and control over the predator who lurks in that pocket dimension.
Iron Fist and Misty Knight following in the footsteps of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones; sex, baby, marriage proposal, marriage, in that order. Are comicbooks for kids anymore? Of course not :)
:) They just can't seem to bring themselves to allow these two characters' lips to make physical contact, can they? ;)
Oh, you know they likely had Kate kiss Speed first. Speed had to get his kiss before Kate was "tainted". I don't follow the Avengers at all. I came by this knowledge through lurking at the Avenger's forum at "that other place". I saw the "kiss" between Patriot and Kate. Now, when a white superhero kisses a femme fatale, the female's response is usually a swoon which is often by a scene where the white superhero and the female are engaging in pillowtalk following a vigorous session of superhero sexual activity. Now look what Kate did to Patriot after he kissed her :D "Writer's choice; reader's preference".
They're easing up on Jessica are they? Artists usually draw Mrs. Cage as if someone knocked her upside the head with a sledgehammer. They're spreading Luke all over the place it looks like. Who does Luke think he is, Deadpool? Wolverine?
I think some writers are trying to write Cloak as if he is Marvel's version of the Spectre. If I've got this right, Jim Corrigan and subsequent Spectres are a vessel for a demonic being who is striving to become a holy being. This being inhabits the green cloak worn by the Spectres and facilitates their miraculous feats of vengeance. Cloak is different from the Spectre. Tyrone had become shadow before he even discovered the material which would become his cloak of darkness. He used that discarded material cover himself and conceal the shadowman he had become. Tyrone is as much his power as Tandy is hers. However, some writers have tried to make the cloak of darkness the show, not Tyrone. They seemed to retcon The Mutant Misadventures Of Cloak And Dagger out of continuity. I hope they retconned that goofy old man who once wore Cloak's cape as an "opera cape" when he was "the portal", out of existence. If anyone should be able to help Cloak better understand the Dark Dimension, especially the pocket dimension, it should be Zawavari of Wakanda.
So Nekra is still living and she managed to have a child by the racist Grim Reaper? Marvel Comics will make a hook up between a black female character (or character of color) and any kind of white male character that comes to mind. It doesn't matter if the male character is a blue bigfoot, has the appearance of a dead baby bird a hungry cat bother to eat, is a white racist, or happens to be some guy she met only minutes earlier. Cloak and Dagger have been a team for nearly 30 years. Cloak has barely gotten a sniff from Dagger what Hank (blue bigfoot) McCoy got from Celia Reyes, what Danny Rand got from Misty Knight, what the racist Grim Reaper apparently got from Nekra, the queen of hate who apparently forgot to hate when it came to getting it on with a white racist. A Russian can nail a Wakandan female - a native of a land notorious for their xenophobic beliefs - impregnate her with a baby she later rejects as an outworlder, but Patriot kisses Kate Bishop and almost gets himself pushed out of the Avengers comicbook. "Writer's choice; fan's preference" ;)
I'm not surprised. Marvel also published the story about Ms Marvel's rape by Immortus' son, Marcus and most disgusting to me, the rape of T'Challa's mother, Ramonda, by white racist, supremacist Anton Pretorious. Maybe that sort of thing will stop now that Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are in charge.
In their earliest adventures, Tandy needed to eat as her powers left her essentially, a normal human being. Tyrone on the other hand, had been nearly consumed by the Dark Dimension and had become something other than human. Tyrone didn't need to eat or sleep. These days, with Tyrone being able to assume human form and live a normal human existence, I'm sure they both have to eat and eventually, do the #1 and #2 :D
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.
Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine. Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.
Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.
The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.
Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.
I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.
It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.
The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.
Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine. Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.
Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.
The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.
Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.
I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.
It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.
The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.
I agree.. Also :
make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.
Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...
I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.
DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.
It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.
Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine. Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.
Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.
The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.
What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.
Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.
I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.
It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.
The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.
I agree.. Also :
make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?
The only reason I am for the Upgrade is to shut up people from doubting everyting T'challa does...with "he should not be able to do that" nonsense. it talks away from the great things he has done, with total focus on what he can't and should not be able to do. He always viewed with limitations.
I just think that a jedi/Bene Gesserit is the best.
Look up Bene Gesserit. You will get a idea of there powers. It's nothing drastic...they just seem like witches, because they do things that make you go wtf.
T'challa has always been sort of Jedi like, without the telekinetic powers. But writers simply ignored it...his powers were suppose to be based on his will and spirit. So like a Jedi he should be able to sense things, and also when he wants in small burst move very fast.
But the best upgrade would simply be Bene Gesserit-like.
Other Memory (being able to take knowledge from other BP)
The Voice
Petit perception
Truthsaying
Simulflow
Prana-bindu training and the weirding way (fighting style, speed, strength and agility)
Internal organic-chemical control
Sexual talents
etc...etc...something like this...
TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.
Until now.
<<Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.>>
Umm when did the Wakandans ever repel Galactus or the Eternals? Or the Deviants? I know BP has a plan to deal with Galactus, but doesn't mean it will work, so until the plan actually works, you can't call it "foolproof".
But your point about the Wakandans being overconfident is valid.
I agree, hopefully when/if he joins again it will get mention more often, but atleast he be in the main cast of the new Avenger cartoon..
Yeah those are basically his powers, before m-day he was the leader of his squad Alpha Squadron, he also one of the few gay characters imo that not written like a stereotype/stereotypical way (I don't even notice he was until I read NM vol.2 & New X-Men for the 2nd time),
As for his tongue I remember him using it in battle once in New X-Men & once in Young X-Men. In New Mutants vol.2 I vaguely remember him using it to play sports (I think he caught a frisbee & football with it & maybe using it to play basketball once) when the kids there hang out. Plus it looks cool.. 8)
Yeah he some what back.. Selene had Eli Bard resurrect & some what completely control (they were trying to fight our of her control) alot dead former X-Men (he was one the one that was) so that they could battle with & distract X-Men while she had resurrect all 16 million mutants who died on Genosha that died.. Her goal sacrifice/eat their souls so she could become all powerfully/immortal, but she didn't get all the souls she need so she didn't become immortal so Warpath was able to do it defeat/kill her. All to most of the mutants that were on Genosha souls were taking by her, but not not all the all the dead x-men/mutants that were fighting the X-Men on Utopia were. So he could one of the one who souls wasn't taken by her. Then they would just need to take the transmode virus out of his system/body just like they did Doug Ramsey & he would be good as new/maybe even better..
Glad that you do & I agree.. that is one of my main prob. with Kasper (beside he should have never became BP in the 1st.. At a minimum you should atleast be 15-25 % Wakandan/have Wakandan blood to be the BP.. ) I don't mind him calling himself the White Tiger (I think Kasper is a better/cool name than it), but also long as it has nothing to do with Wakanda because doesn't make sense in story.. But even worse was the Gold Lion.. it doesn't make sense at all for there to be Gold Lion in the Panther Cult with there is a Lion Cult in Wakanda & that Lion Cult/Lion God has been shown to dislike/attack T'Challa & hate the Panther Cult. the Gold Lion should be the Lion Cult version of the Black Panther.. An the Crocodile Cult should have the Green Crocodie or something like that..
Aslo the English/British Howler/Howling Command is Percival ''Percy'' Pinkerton..
I wonder how long we'll have to wait before the Black Panther debut in the series. If I'm looking at the correct promos for the series, it appears we'll have to slog through the back stories of Capt. America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man, and Wasp before we get to our (or at least, my) favorite Avenger, the Black Panther.
4Sake, you touch on very interesting subjects. We've all read it posted now and again - indeed, in this very thread - that Marvel Comics needs more black writers writing black characters. We've all discovered that all black writers can't please all black readers all of the time. Hudlin has suffered the slings and arrows of critics black and white alike who have found him lacking when it comes to capturing the true essence of the Black Panther and even moreso, Storm. He once had Storm utter a phrase (it's been so long ago now I've even forgotten what it was Storm even said) however, some deemed that one phrase so much out of Storm's character that it was discussed for quite some time.
So, it's difficult for talented black writers to portray black characters in a fashion that satisfies the diverse comicbook readership, how much more difficult then must it be for a writer to portray a gay character. Black characters are readily identifiable as such unless one takes into account the occasional x-geek who insists Storm - born of a Black-American father and a Kenyan mother - somehow managed to emerge from her black mother's womb a patchwork quilt of mutant humanity.
Gays aren't as easily identified. Who would have ever suspected Northstar or Rawhide Kid of being gay? For a long time, Storm was written pretty much asexual (and quite badly IMO) during her earliest X-Men days. Ambiguous writing by Claremont (which I've only read about in forum posts but never seen evidence of in any comicbooks) and suggestive illustrations of Storm and other female characters (again, I"ve only read about these "scenes" in forum posts) has apparently convinced more than a few x-geeks that Storm is bi-sexual. Unless writers have a character come right out - "out of the closet" as it were - and state their sexual orientation or we see evidence of this orientation acted upon with another character, it is impossible to identify a gay character.
Meanwhile, a character like Nezhno for instance is a prime target for those who eagerly labeled Storm bi-sexual and who are no doubt disgusted to see that Ororo seems to be a confirmed heterosexual. Unless some writer has Nezhno and Pixie in a Beak/Angel drunken underage intercourse/impregnation fiasco, his sexual orientation is undetermined.
I remember watching the Toad character using his tongue in the X-Men Evolution animated series. It just didn't seem to click with me. For one, the tongue is a very sensitive organ. To put it out there in harm's way like that doesn't seem too healthy.
Thanks ;) I think the only two Howlers that have ever stuck in my memory are Sgt Fury and Dum Dum Dugan.
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...
I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.
DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.
It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.
This entire post is yet another example of sinjection's piercing intellect,his sure suasion borne from his lucid logic...and I completely respect this perspective that he offers here.Now my response here is sooo thoroughly subjective,that many who don't agree with me or see where I'm coming from could be and I think should be forgiven,but I think that any practicing martial artist--including the Hall of Fame inductee author of DOOMWAR,our very own JM--will feel me on this.
I was teaching clients of my ATACX GYM shortly after my post to sinjection detailing portions of the reasons why I have no problem with DOOM handily winning the early rounds in his confrontation with TCHALLA,WAKANDA and the assembled heroes at large,when in walks this crew of bruthas including in their number an impressively muscled brutha about 6'4" and 255 pounds of solid,striated sinew.He exuded that deep confidence and alpha-alpha male aura of the proven,experienced,skilled combatant and predator.I peeped him out of the corner of my eye as his boi from his crew (a young dude in his late 20's of similar height but only about 215 pounds,and whom I'd had occassion to physically remonstrate with regarding using excessive force when sparring with a comparatively new FEMALE client of mine literally 100 pounds lighter and 8 inches shorter after warning him FIVE TIMES regarding that behaviour with other clients of mine in the space of a week,then finally expelling him from my gym and returning his money to him) pointed me out.This NFL linebacker type brutha nodded once,observed me teach my client the shoulder roll off of the jab,then moved directly toward me when I finished.
As I turned to face him,he asked me only one question:"Did you kick (I'M DELIBERATELY NOT USING THE NAME OF THE BRUTHA WHOM I EXPELLED OUT OF MY GYM FOR LIABILITY REASONS,NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A SPECIAL CONCERN FOR PROTECTING HIS ANONYMITY) out of here?"
"Yes..." was all I had time to say before he bull rushed me with a double leg.I sprawled and helicoptered (the spin you use to go directly to your opponent's back from a sprawl without touching your feet on the ground.It's much faster than the regular method of spinning to your opponent's back).This huge brutha spun beneath me like a sabertooth tiger and somehow prevented me from getting his back,while seizing me with huge strength and literally throwing me away like he was doing a chest pass with a medicine ball.I snapped a back tuck mid-air,landed on my feet and we went at it hard and fast.Bare knuckle.No protective equipment.Old skool style.
Even at age 40--yes I'm 40--I usually enjoy a significant quickness and speed advantage over most people.I can still pull off a nearly 2 minute 800 meter and a sub 4.5 40 meter sprint.I can both bench press double my bodyweight and squat quadruple my bodyweight for reps,and I almost never lift steel.This kid was 10 years my junior and 100 pounds heavier,plus 7-8 inches taller.Par for the course for me,I've beaten guys like this mucho times.Nothing new there.What WAS new was when this dude smoothly transformed a shotgun jab he fired and which I barely eluded into a rolling downward backfist which cracked me just under my left ear and across my carotid.Another new thing was how he transformed his backfist into a neck tie and slammed a knee into my chest that--even though I barely blocked it--was delivered with such explosive power that it literally knocked me backwards off of my feet and snatched me out of his own grip.This guy was every bit as quick as I am,and that was every bit as disconcerting as seeing that this guy had a strong traditional martial arts background that covered the easily exploitable holes that most guys with MMA training--which he also had--leave wide open and which I'm used to exploiting.While I was enjoying the pain shooting down my neck from his backfist and the shortness of breath and fiery pain caused by his knee,he removed all doubt about his traditional martial arts background by firing a wicked knife kick at my groin which I barely managed to avoid,which set me up for a cold Muay Thai shin kick to the body which I also parried but which delivered alot of trauma to my conditioned forearms and shin which blocked the kick.I barely slipped the following cross and literally had to leap away in a dive roll to avoid being caught by his same-side knee/spinning elbow combination.I came back with a feint-sidekick to his knee which he dismissively blocked MT style,followed with a back kick that he not only waved away but nearly caught me in a standing achilles lock for even trying,I jumped over his attempt to shin kick my standing leg while running me backwards toward the gym wall and disengaged his hold on my foot with a kenpo technique called Breaking the Fetters and his answering hook missed ripping my head off by a quarter second.I'd angled myself to take advantage of the momentum he built up while running me toward the wall to either avoid the wall entirely or use the rebound to my advantage but he read me perfectly and stopped my attempted diagonal escape with another beautiful shin kick which I mostly parried but which still opened up my forehead.I took that momentum and the slamming energy of me against the wall to execute a double role from capoeira and a dive roll to put space between he and I but he was all over me with knees fists and elbows.I parried slipped eluded and countered with a ridgehand to the groin but he totally stopped that and countered with a handsword to my neck which I eluded.I served a left to his muscled stomach which scored,he countered with a overhand right which grazed me,I tried to toss him with a judo knee wheel and he wasn't having ANY of that PLUS he nearly tripped me with a foot sweep which I evaded,then he took me down with a left leg inside trip on my left leg.I countered immediately with a judo tomonage and thought I was going to take advantage and finish him but he executed a beautiful breakfall and rolled smoothly to his feet in a fighting stance,and immediately began moving in on me again.I started using my trademark elusive footwork but this guy was looking waaay too comfy tracking me down.He looked like a sabertooth on skates,huge powerful fluid quick smooth and predatory and I knew I was in trouble.
For the first time in my life,I'd been confronted by someone who was stronger,longer,just as quick or quicker,just as technically sound,possessed of just as deep of a combat arsenal,just as impressive with his conditioning so he could fight as long or longer than I can,just as coordinated,and mentally just as strong.I had ZERO of the traditional advantages that I usually used to quickly and decisively resolve matters in my own favor.After 34 years of martial arts training to overcome whatever obstacle,I was realizing under fire that I'd grown complacent with the physical,technical and mental advantages which I'd used time and time again to overcome my adversaries whatever their size and number...and I was facing that unpleasant sensation that comes to us when we're not only uncertain but deeply concerned that failure will have the worst possible consequences for us.
You know how I beat him? During another scramble during which we exchanged sidekicks,knees,heel hook kicks,punches,forearm smashes,elbows,and during which he blocked my 5 Swords (probably the trademark technique of my base punching and kicking art,Kenpo Karate) not only once but TWICE (again something which has never happened),this dude pulled off a jab,used a crescent kick to my lead left foot to almost sweep me,feinted a single leg and pulled off a Jon Bones Jones like spinning elbow which would have taken my whole head off had I not used my ginga to slide right under him while simultaneously slipping the elbow.I spit right in his face,then--off of a totally spontaneous movement borne from the fact that this dude had literally backed me into a corner blocking my escape--I used a Parkour style bounce off of the wall combined with Kenpo's Parting Wings to launch myself literally head first ( la cabeca in capoeira) like a human spear into his wide open face while his eyes were closed by my spit.This cracked his nose wide open and allowed me to roll passed him as his spine bent back like he was doing the Limbo under a bar.I finished his with a sidekick to the base of his spine and a full powered,full contact spin kick to his temple.He hit the ground out cold.
I calmly looked at the brutha whom I'd expelled,and told him he'd better get this dude I just beat as well as himself out of my gym right now because I'm calling the police.I put my cellie on loud speaker and let him hear the 911 operator answer the phone for effect to emphasize my point.Those guys evaporated before the police arrived,but I gave them every bit of info that I had on them including the make and color of the car they were driving,and every name that I knew pertaining to them.I also immediately moved my training location for the next 2 weeks.
What does this have to do with DOOMWAR? Simply EVERYTHING.
TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.
Until now.
He's on this promo pic..
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I agree & John Byrne petty much says he always intened for Northstar to be gay/created Northstar as gay man.
Was it your intended when you created Northstar that he would be a gay man?
JB: When I created Alpha Flight they were basically half a dozen characters who could survive a prolonged battle with the X-Men. They had very little depth -- tho I am a compulsive creator of backstory, so I knew something about their histories even then -- and were not really created with any thought toward them eventually getting their own title.
Unfortunately (?) they proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book. Eventually I relented, and agreed to do the series -- which meant I had one problem instantly: I had to find ways to make those characters more three dimensional.
One of the things that popped immediately into my head was to make one of them Gay. I had recently read an article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN on what was then (the early 80s) fairly radical new thinking on just what processes caused a person to be homosexual, and the evidence was pointing increasingly to it being genetic and not environmental factors. So, I thought, it seemed like it was time for a Gay superhero, and since I was being "forced" to make ALPHA FLIGHT a real series, I might as well make one of them Gay.
From there, it was a process of elimination. I didn't want the homosexual character to be one of the girls, since that was something people tended to associate (rightly or wrongly) with Claremont books.
Mac Hudson and Heather were happily married and I did not want to mess with that.
Michael was widowed with a daughter, and that way lay what I considered too much of a cliche, if he turned out to be Gay. Besides, as a Native Canadian he was already the resident "minority". The new guy, Puck, had his own set of problems.
Sasquatach would be just too damn scary!!
So I settled on Jean-Paul, and the moment I did I realized it was already there. Somewhere in the back of my mind I must have been considering making him Gay before I "decided" to so so.
Of course, the temper of the times, the Powers That Were and, naturally, the Comics Code would not let me come right out and state that Jean-Paul was homosexual, but I managed to "get the word out" even with those barriers. (8/24/2004)
Also Bling!/Roxanne ''Roxy'' Washington is both black/AA & a lesbian.. 8)
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Also was thinking the today that there are a many characters that could easily identify as being mixed/multiracial(who right now are only know to be white)... They could multiracial because the way they been drawn/the way there parents have been drawn/their parents haven't been show yet/their character history & few other reasons. Off the of top head Mercury, Gambit Cloud 9, Carmilla Black/Thanasee Rappaccini, Iron Fist/Rand & Rockslide could easy be multiracial characters..
PLEASE ANY ONE OTHER THAN PIXIE..
If the New X-Men ever get a book again I'd like to see him date :
Dust - the both have outside looking in thing going when it come to being X-students & they seem to have mutual respect for each other & ..
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Or Mercury - because she basically(non-toxic) living metal he will be able to feel her because his vibranium tattoos/powers make hard for him to feel things, but he felt Mercury when she touch him..]
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Also I remember you mention Prodigy while I'm not really a fan of his, but I thought I'd let u know he was last shown helping Scott organize/run his forces/teams in the 2nd coming.
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I've seen this promo but for some reason, didn't connect it to the upcoming animated t.v. show. The Panther is looking good. When it comes to style, functionality, and the intimidation/coolness factor, the Black Panther habit is second to none when compared to the costume/garb of the other superhero types. I always preferred the Panther without the cape, especially when the character is in battle. He (and/or she) appears more streamlined and sleek without the cape.
Very interesting. "Unfortunately(?) they [Alpha Flight] proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book." In my always humble opinion, Alpha Flight was one of the more exciting concepts developed for Marvel Comics period. The characters were fresh, original, intriguing, diverse, and dynamic---as exciting if not more so, than the X-Men. Byrne's comments seem to suggest he wasn't altogether enthused about his creation and that's what strikes me as being unfortunate. I now have to wonder if the very untimely death of James Hudson/Vindicator could have been Byrne's way of sabotaging Alpha Flight. I would hope not. An Alpha Flight team consisting of: Vindicator/J. Hudson, Guardian/H. Hudson, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Pathway, Goblyn, Northstar, Aurora, Shaman and Talisman would definitely reinvigorate my flagging interest in comics. A limited series featuring Cloak and Dagger as temporary members of the Imperial Guard would catch my interest as well.
By the way 4Sake, whatever happened to Pathway and Goblyn? I doubt they're on Utopia.
hmmmm...Byrne felt "forced" to develop his excellent Alpha Flight concept as an ongoing and feeling put upon, decided to make a Flight member gay. Any inspiration for introducing a gay character Byrne might have found in the Scientific American article makes perfect sense to me. But it seems that the other part of Byrne's reasoning for making a Flight member gay was a sort of retaliation for being "forced" to produce the Alpha Flight ongoing. :-\....don't know what to make of that.
Had either Shaman or Pathway been homosexual as well, the reader would not have noticed this added aspect of "minority" status unless they learned of it through the character's public or private thoughts or statements on the matter or through intimate interaction with a character of their same gender.
...just too damn scary to be gay? I'm aware of the "lipstick lesbian" and super-fine gay male stereotypes out there. Throw the metrosexual in there too. Walter Langkowski wasn't "just too damn scary" to bed the beautiful Jeanne-Marie Baubier.
Every member of Alpha Flight was interesting; however, it seemed to me that Northstar was gaining in fan popularity at a faster rate than the others. I remember confirmed Northstar's homosexuality making t.v. national news reports. Looking back on Jean-Paul's earliest civilian appearances, he did seem aloof of the female attention he received. At the time, I chalked it all up to his being an arrogant ass. Eventually however, I did pick up on certain clues - the interaction between himself and Aurora when they both believed Langkowski to have been killed and his "mysterious illness" that appeared to me to be the A.I.D.S. virus at that time.
Recently, I learned that the character Shatterstar is homosexual although his creator says he did not create him as such.
These scans are the most attractive illustrations of Bling I"ve seen to date. Like Jessica Jones (who was looking quite fetching legs crossed and wearing bunny slippers) it appears some artists have decided to give Bling a break from the ugly stick.
Really? Worth investigating in my spare time. Marvel doesn't seem shy about hooking up attractive black female characters with white male characters and at least 2 of those white characters have killed their black female lovers: Calypso/Kraven The Hunter - I believe Kraven killed Calypso. Nekra (black, although her skin is chalk-white)/Grim Reaper - Reaper killed Nekra. Wolverine has kissed Storm once or twice. Misty Knight pregnant and engaged to Danny Rand. Celia Reyes/Hank McCoy. Glory Grant (J.J. Jameson's erstwhile secretary) dated the hispanic characters Hector Ayala and Eduardo Lobo
I don't follow the mutants anymore, but I do have a vague awareness of the characters. I see an illustration of Dust without her veil. Never saw that before.
Knowing Marvel's and the x-writer's penchant for getting their white male characters into the pants of all female characters - white/non-white/extraterrestrial/extra-dimensional, etc...- I expect the rest of Dust's clothes will join her discarded veil and she'll find her completely naked body in the arms of some male X-Man not named Nezhno or Prodigy very soon, if not sooner.
Cool. I hope Prodigy doesn't manage to get himself killed off by an x-writer anytime soon.
Again poor story telling.
I hope Maberry visits this forum.
Again poor story telling.
I hope Maberry visits this forum.
Yeah, he has been absent from HEF as of late...
Where is Maberry?
"When I look at T'Challa now, I see a broken failure of a character stumbling from one disaster to another whilst he's betrayed by his god and left having to rely on the help of others to overcome a foe to whom he's on an equal mental footing with. There's something fundamentally wrong with this picture."
The actualization of the character's potential and its consistency in story telling is the genesis and foundation of what is to become the character's canon. This starts with the character's origin. A great origin clearly defines the character's most essential core elements.
This is where we find their motivation. Batman's motivation arguably revenge, Spiderman's motivation arguably guilt, Doom's motivation arguably control and Tchalla's motivation arguably obligation. Over the years and with different writers, these motivations evolve and become more complex. These motivations are also able to contextualize into the zeitgeist of the era... war, civil rights, pop culture, etc. So Batman's motivations expands to include control and fear, which then can further expand into mistrust maybe even envy. The tighter the origin, the clearer the motivations that lend themselves to canon.
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...The Lord of N'Jaka village is no joke. (He is bad T'Challa) The thing is he never had the chance to shine outside of the Pantherverse. I think killing him off was a mistake. He should have showed up first in other books fighting other people (and doing well) and then appearing on the BP series as T'Challa's main bad guy.
The Fantastic Four were utterly useless and thus far unnecessary. They brought absolutely nothing to the table.
With the exception of Nightcrawler teleporting Tchalla and Shuri neither did the Xmen. Hell, they didn't even bother to show up after issue two.
Deadpool didn't high tech his way into Doom's castle via his teleportation device, no sir. He uses the old fashioned disguised my self as a gypsy to get past the guards routine. He made it look easier than the Punisher did years ago. Again this was superfluous.
A couple of questions that begs the asking are... Why hasn't Tchalla called in some of his eighty thousand troops? Where are the Hatut Zeraze and their much needed cloaking technology? Without cloaks you're just wasting Dora Milaje. Doomwar could have easily been done utilizing just the characters from Black Panther. It would have made the story more personal and given a greater sense of authenticity to war between Tchalla and Victor.
The writer and editors are bitching Tchalla, threatening his marriage and decimating his nation. And for what? To give us Doomwar.
The only reason that is plausible to me lies in the way Reg (and Priest before him) wrote Black Panther. Tchalla an indomitable genius, physically peak human (perhaps super human) prep master who is almost always triumphant (as a hero is supposed to be), married to the powerful and unremitting Storm, while living in an unconquered Afrakan country that happens to be one of the most advanced nations on earth. I think a few somebodies were not very satisfied with these happenings and decided not tolerate it any longer. They probably surmised the best way to dismantle the Black Panther was to have him fight the unbeatable foe. They concocted a story line, hired a writer and gave us Doomwar.
Aside from Scott Eaton's great art work and Maberry's well written Doom I am left with nothing but questions.
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...The Lord of N'Jaka village is no joke. (He is bad T'Challa) The thing is he never had the chance to shine outside of the Pantherverse. I think killing him off was a mistake. He should have showed up first in other books fighting other people (and doing well) and then appearing on the BP series as T'Challa's main bad guy.
I agree with KIP...bring Klaw back...
But also bring back Killmonger and actually define him...put him on the Raft...let him join the Thunderbolts or something...Marvel's version of Anabisi at the Raft...with 10-15 ton range strength (or more), giving Cage hell...like Anabisi on OZ....None of the Peak human BS...please. He would be Superhuman...and a genius...and it would show why T'challa had issue with thim...That's part of the issue with T'challa right now...you have fanboys that continue to limit the dude, or place this limatations that they simply do not place on Steve Rogers.
Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw. The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.
Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.
Couple of points I wanna make here, guys.
Firstly, the Fantastic Four has never stood on ceremony with T’Challa and have always called him by his first name, so there’d be no reason for them to stand on ceremony with Shuri. And for her part, the FF are her brother’s oldest friends so she’d naturally afford them a certain amount of respect.
As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).
This fight is not all that one sided.
the FF are her brother’s oldest friends
Doom’s taken over Wakanda by proxy,
the Panthers took it back two days later. Doom stole the Vibranium. In the newest issue of Doomwar we learn that the Panthers and the F.F. are destroying Doom’s bases all over the world. Doom’s waxing the good guys’ forces. T’Challa got something for that too: an unkillable psycho assassin and a dangerous new type of physics.
While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).
The ritual for pantherhood would include detailed mental and spiritual components as well as physical. Not only must one be the best fighter but they must be the most gifted intellectually, and be selected by the Panther spirit to undergo a sacred ordeal.
There would be five levels to Pantherhood, Tchalla would have completed them faster than any other in Wakandan history.
Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw. The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.
Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.
I can't help but feel that some white fans don't like Sisko because of Avery Brooks. I think there is a feeling that Brooks is too remote, that he's not all ra-ra about DS9 and that turns some fans off. He's not dissing the show, but he's not waxing poetic about it either, IMO. And when a black person isn't smiling and going 110% in cheerleading something, it might make some white people feel that Brooks has an attitude. I also do feel that Sisko being black turned off some fans. They might not even realize why they don't 'get' Sisko, but I think its because of the inability of some whites to identify with a black character. They can't see blacks as equals, as fully dimensional human beings. Some might be able to admire physical feats or singing or blacks abilities to entertain them, but they still aren't putting these people on the same plane as they are. And for the intellectual blacks, they are often seen as 'exceptions'.
Sinjection1, what I am trying to emphasize about the Fantastic Four, XMen and Deadpool is that everything they did could have been done by the Black Panther or some other Wakandan. Some examples follow.
Tchalla could have prevented Shuri from committing suicide by Namor. That would have at least given Tchalla an excuse to converse with Namor. The video ruse could have been handled by Taku, thus reminding Shuri and her scientist N'iix why Tchalla and his core of specialist are the best.
Tchalla could have developed a means to teleport them into the palace or at least show them a secret passage.I think Kurt was one only X-Men who was used petty well, but its goes back the balance where you don't have the guest showing so the main stars. So yeah T"Challa showing them a secret passage in the place he build would better, but ALOT of the story seem rush. So who know maybe he did.. Tie-in wouldn't help this story out alot..
In the fight against Doom's foot soldiers in Doomwar #4, the FF with their much vaunted powers were not very effective. Sue was overwhelmed by two Doombots 3rd panel page 2. Ben was knocked out cold by page 4 and Johnny had to be saved by Storm page 1.
The XMen. Ahhhh, the XMen. They did some cutting, they did some punching, they even blocked a few bullets. Every little bit helps I guess. I personally think Shuri and the Dora Milaje looked more impressive. Again what the XMen brought to the war the Wakandans could match, even an underwritten Tchalla did as much.For the most part X-Men were also very missed used in this series also (atleast so far)..
The Dora Milaje army was never mentioned during Reg's run. Aneka never made an appearance. Are these elements making the story less clear?
Hey Vic, I have to co sign with 4sake on your first comment. You are correct that Tchalla has removed the Hatut Zeraze from Wakanda but Hunter being the loyalist fanatic he is, would most definitely have involved himself in something as serious as the war with Doom.
Good points about Killmonger 4sake. Excellent breakdowns on the inconsistencies.
In regards to the ritual I was trying to suggest some sophistication about how an advance nation such as Wakanda would choose its leadership. It would seem illogical if only the best physical fighter was chosen to rule.
When I complete the outline on the five levels I will post them.
"Giving a Power Ring to John Stewart is like giving an old lady the keys to the Batmobie." I happened upon this ridiculous comment while scanning opinions posted to that other forum. The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members.
And yet, in the opinion of more than a few members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, John Stewart is somehow less deserving than Rayner and Gardner of wielding a Power Ring. Many of those same members are likely of the opinion that Jericho Drumm's ascension to Sorcerer Supreme is just so much Affirmative Action nonsense placing the under-qualified Drumm in a position best served by the white Dr. Stephen Strange. I see DC's character Firestorm is once again a white male, the black male relegated to the subordinate position/condition.
Any opinion holding that John Stewart is unqualified to wield a Power Ring obviously has no basis in fact. Hal Jordan - who most might claim to be the greatest Green Lantern - has conceded that Stewart's Ring constructs are more solid than his own and that Stewart is not only superior to him as a flyer, but is the best of the entire Corps. That "fan's" opinion stems from the type of prejudice and bias which all too often is the basis for the obnoxious, inaccurate, stupid comments which serve to diminish not only John Stewart, but Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Bishop, and many other Black comicbook characters.
T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence. Keep bringing it strong, Ture. Your comments as always, are right on point.
Interesting post Ture. I made a rant over at cbr pretty much about the same thing... ;)
I'm got to admit that I'm almost done with Marvel. I do salute those African writers who have tried to bring Marvel into the 21st Century, despite the constant problems which came there way. But it is always difficult to engage and change the personalty of a thing, when it was devised to uphold and reinforce another peoples culture.
It's a shame really that the Milestone effort from a few years age was not able to get more fans. Because when it comes down to how we are presented in this medium. The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman ( and I am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms" >:( )
<<I agree & another key charchers missing form all this is Namor, I don't know wasn't going with marvel, but if anyone should be here (in DoomWar) its him.. >>
I said something similar before DW started. T was hurt while visiting Namor; he would take personal offense that Doom attacked his visitor.
As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).
While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).
This fight is not all that one sided.
<<At least one of those Wakandans managed to become impregnated by a Russian. It seems to me that a person from an arrogant culture - one who believes themselves unmatched by any other in the world - wouldn't ever entertain the notion intimate intercourse with a member of a culture considered to be inferior. >>
Tell that to millins of racist men who had no problem bedding Black woman.
But I think the comment had more to do with the fact that because the Wakandan have never been beaten has given them an arrogance that they never can be beaten.
But in a general prediction, I suspect that JM plans for BP to pull a "hail mary" victory.
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>
That part I am leaning toward as well. He will trap Doom and be trapped himself. Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>
I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at. OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.
Sin, I think part of the problem is Wakanda only works if it is a mysterious, hidden, unknown people. The minute you take away veil and try and explain Wakanda as a real nation, it doesn't work. Or rather, the mystique gets lost and contradictions and logic flaws pop up.
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.
Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”
Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.
Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.
It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.
These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.
You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.
These are the decrees of doom.
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>
I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at. OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.
Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?
Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.
I don't there were ever any plans of returning T'Challa to being Black Panther. If there were it would certainly be done now more than ever as Shuri has shown she isn't ready to carry a title. In the vain of Steve Rogers I can live with that--if there are T'Challa plans. We talk about Namor. A reason not for him to be involved maybe is while he is T'Challa's friend he is also Doom's ally. Doom has had his back for a good while now so maybe Namor is being neutral. If you recall Doom fell out with Osborn over Namor.
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>
That part I am leaning toward as well. He will trap Doom and be trapped himself. Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>
That part I am leaning toward as well. He will trap Doom and be trapped himself. Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)
I posted that idea of their disappearnce weeks ago. Hopefully it won't come true.
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers? So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.
There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.
<<Princess: I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point.>>
Not so much as parnoid but expecting a cliche.
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers? So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.
There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.
I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point. I could see T'Challa as a part of the X Men with this "I am an X Man" stuff. You have three or four title with the same cast, take one like languishing Astonishing and have Xavier re-establish his work with Ororo, T'Challa, Kitty , Omega Sentinel, Draken to start...
We've been taking about where Wakanda is supposed to be for ages here. Kirby version was in a valley somewhere. I'm fairly cetain that in the 70's it was landlocked (which makes sense) Marvel is keeping its options open (because folks thinks its cool for them be seaside to have a Navy).
Personally, I wish Deadpool hadn't been used at all. I've never liked the character, don't find him the least bit funny or entertaining and I can't help but feel that T'Challa has been even further diminished by having to enlist his aid.
I concur with much of what you wrote Kip about the Wakandan/Skrull battle during Secret Invasion. My point was BP's episode of SI was well received and I heard comments that it was the most entertaining of the crossover event. I did state and do again that all this is debatable.
<<the writer said, Wakanda could not beat the power of Skrull army so he had to remove the Skrull edge. He took away their tech, ignored their shape shifting powers, and magic and had them fight a blade war.>>
I think the writer should have kept all those elements in the story. It would have added texture and complexity to an already fine read. The writer would have had to build on the “magic” of the Panther Spirit to ferret out the Skrull infiltrators and show the Panther Spirit combating Skrull magic. Since the Wakandans developed a means to “shape shift” (or maybe just cloak/alter their appearance) that could have been expanded story wise to being some form of transmitter that prevented all except Super-Skrulls from shape shifting.
I was really hoping to see the Wakandan armada in action. I was hoping for a splash page that rivaled Priest's (actually Sal and Bob's) BP#49. This would have been an excellent opportunity to showcase Wakanda's off world outposts, orbital battle platforms, N'yami battle cruisers and their much vaunted Wakandan army,navy and marines. The writer could have included combative robotics like the Prowlers or even introduced a secret robot army Tchalla had hidden in the techno jungle. The only limits lied in the writer's imagination, and of course how he viewed the BlackPanther and Wakanda.
Tchalla's battle with the Super-Skrulls could have been done much more effectively if he utilized his light and thrice blessed armors. What better time than in an all out war. This was the perfect place to highlight his speed, strength and agility. Show off his martial arts prowess and sword play.
<<And being an unconquered nation isn't as impressive as it sounds. Beating back colonial forces doesn't mean they are military equals to this European Nations. It just means when they have the home field advantage, a small invasion forces can't win. For example, beating a company or 2 of British soldiers doesn't mean they could have beaten the entire British Empire. Or take the Nazi's. Wakanda handly defeats their invasion parties, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could beat the Nazi's in Europe or that they could beat Hitler if he sent everything against Wakanda instead of only a hundred or so men. Now, understand it also doesn't mean they couldn't; I'm not saying that. I'm just saying being "unconquered" is impressive only to a certain degree. Yes, they are unique in Africa, but that just makes them mightiest of Africa, not necessarily the world.If they want to show Wakanda as the mightiest, best warriors, then show them in a war against something more impressive than raiding parties. (And that's all we've ever really seen.)>>
Again I agree.
While Secret Invasion's misfires weren't as blatant they exist none the less. These have been my complaints through out Doomwar. That the writer(s) have been under utilizing Black Panther's talents and resources and have de-powered and dumbed down a truly remarkable character. The only question is why.
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers? So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.
There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.
I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point. I could see T'Challa as a part of the X Men with this "I am an X Man" stuff. You have three or four title with the same cast, take one like languishing Astonishing and have Xavier re-establish his work with Ororo, T'Challa, Kitty , Omega Sentinel, Draken to start...
That could work (Daken will more than like never a x-man..Erista maybe, but I doubt will ever see Daken on the X-Men & Carey said he has plans for Omega Sentinel, but I'd love to see her on a team again)..
Astonishing - seems to be a either official or unofficial rule that this book must a have famous/known name (both in & out comics) writer. An the only current working for marvel or would work for marvel are Mark Millar (current is with marvel again), Dwayne McDuffie (more than likely would work for marvel), & our forums host Reginald Hudlin (current is with marvel).. BMB said before that he'd like to write the X-Men at some point & since he's marvel top writer so I could see letting him write Astonishing also if he wanted to...
I personally want see what both D-Mc & RH would do with an X-book/X-Men.. :D ;D 8)
Also Ellis is leaving after this arc, so the book maybe open for a new writer to take over, if marvel doesn't cancel it.
[url]http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=7158&page=1#Item_0[/url]
ASTONISHING X-MEN: probably some delays coming? Short ones? I don't even know anymore. My third arc has been repurposed into the ASTONISHING X-MEN: EXOGENETIC miniseries. That will be my last ASTONISHING X-MEN project.
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>
I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at. OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.
Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?
Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.
Confirmed : Wakandian, Yoruba, Swahili & English.. There a few others also more than likey..
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.
Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”
Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.
Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.
It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.
These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.
You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.
These are the decrees of doom.
Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.
Sinjection1, what I find most satisfying in your missives about the Black Panther is that you comprehend the depth necessary for the true maturation of the character. I am in complete agreement that Wakanda should have its own language. I also concur with you that the Desturi would be the first to insist upon its usage. We must have a telepathic link of some kind because my wife and I were discussing that very topic. During the discussion I too used the Klingons as an example. The producers of Star Trek the Motion Picture first introduced the Klingon language in 1979. They brought in a trained linguist named Dr. Marc Okrand. He created a complete language, with its own vocabulary, grammar, and usage. There is even a dictionary. This demonstrated an enormous commitment of resources and a strong desire for authenticity. The Black Panther's popularity would have to reach Spider-man, or at least Ironman levels and Wakanda would have to be as admired and sought after in much the same way the Klingon Empire is before Marvel would commit the kind of support needed for the development of an original Wakandan language. It is also possible that a writer may just take the time to create it and give this deserving people a voice all their own.
While Priest was writing BP he would include brackets to indicate when the characters were speaking another language. The brackets were asterisked with a caption that would read translated from the Wakandan or what ever language they were using at the time.
There are many clever ways a writer could acknowledge the existence of the Wakandan language. One could make the Wakandans an ancient people, contemporaries of the Kemetic or Atlantean people, thus being among the first to develop a written language. One could make the argument that Yoruba and Swahili evolved out of the Wakandan language due to ancient Wakandan migrations and settlements. This would explain why these languages are spoken in Wakanda.
Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.
I think that work kind of well in story because most-all non Afrikan nation shouldn't know where to put Wakanda on a map.. So they just guess where to put it when they make maps/etc & assume its land locked or in a valley & etc... The ppl who know where place Wakanda on a map/actually know how to draw Wakanda map are Wakandan & a few of there neighboring nation.. So I just look at the moving around of Wakanda/ being land lock/not being in a valley/being in a valley/being land lock things.. As westerns & other nation trying figure how to put Wakanda on one there map/guessing what it look like..
Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.
I think that work kind of well in story because most-all non Afrikan nation shouldn't know where to put Wakanda on a map.. So they just guess where to put it when they make maps/etc & assume its land locked or in a valley & etc... The ppl who know where place Wakanda on a map/actually know how to draw Wakanda map are Wakandan & a few of there neighboring nation.. So I just look at the moving around of Wakanda/ being land lock/not being in a valley/being in a valley/being land lock things.. As westerns & other nation trying figure how to put Wakanda on one there map/guessing what it look like..
But when governments discuss Wakanda's location they're bound to use satellites and updated maps. Unless the country has its own cloaking device they could pinpoint it. Its architecture would stick out.
In both CJP & RH runs T'Challa was shown to be able to hide/cloak diffrent type of Wakanda planes/aircraft without the US knowing about, In CJP run Hunter/Hatut was showing using advanced cloaking in his costume/habit when T'Challa was around 8-12 & the Hatut Zeraze were show costume/habits in CJP runs also.. So I think they have high tech enuff cloaking to hide Wakanda from other nations satellites and updated maps.
In both CJP & RH runs T'Challa was shown to be able to hide/cloak diffrent type of Wakanda planes/aircraft without the US knowing about, In CJP run Hunter/Hatut was showing using advanced cloaking in his costume/habit when T'Challa was around 8-12 & the Hatut Zeraze were show costume/habits in CJP runs also.. So I think they have high tech enuff cloaking to hide Wakanda from other nations satellites and updated maps.
Also Wakanda's neighbors would tell others where it is since they're not friendly with Wakanda.
I'd think they make a lil to afraid to do, because that may mean what & they know what happen when you got to war with the Wakandans i.e bad thing would happen to them..but that just imo.. :D
Not necessarily. Wakanda wouldn't be cut off from the world just preemptively protected from the worst the parts. Wakanda could still continue its trading through the Wakandan Design Group. Their representation and standing with the global community should remain intact. After all the global community should understand given Wakanda's history and such. Besides the global community still covets vibranium. Think less isolation and more protection.
But those shippers got their "RoLo" in the Ultimate Marvel format, didn't they?
Ultimate Ororo is not Kenyan, but Moroccan. More than once, I've seen LCB-RD fanatics, usually x-geeks, claim that Ororo is not Black. Morocco is not Sub-Saharan Africa (Black Africa), but "upper-Sahara" (white/Arab Africa). The first thing they did when they "ultimized" Ororo was to make her "caucasoid" while maintaining the exotic appearance which has made Storm one of the most physically attractive female characters in the entire comicbook industry.
But those shippers got their "RoLo" in the Ultimate Marvel format, didn't they?
Ultimate Ororo is not Kenyan, but Moroccan. More than once, I've seen LCB-RD fanatics, usually x-geeks, claim that Ororo is not Black. Morocco is not Sub-Saharan Africa (Black Africa), but "upper-Sahara" (white/Arab Africa). The first thing they did when they "ultimized" Ororo was to make her "caucasoid" while maintaining the exotic appearance which has made Storm one of the most physically attractive female characters in the entire comicbook industry.
I didn't collect Ultimate X-Men. But I'm using a black Arab singer as a facial reference for my Storm drawings. Her and Pam Grier.
(Ultimate Spider-man line is very good; the only Spidey I buy nowadays.)
Ultimate Wolverine is dead. And it doesn't look like he's coming back. Though they have introduced his son who seems to be nothing like the old man. For one thing he looks normal.
Doom knew about Wakanda, but the reason we know the Wakandans fell is the reason Doom gave up this scheme.
Doom was bored with the administrative duties of running a mind-controlled world. When Wonder Man showed up immune to purple man's powers, Doom was excited about the idea of a challenge.
So if the Wakandans remained free of Doom's control, he'd have his challenge and would never have given up control.
Oh, the story may have been published in 87, but with Marvel's sliding time scale, it happened after the West Coast Avengers came into existance. And that was long after the world knew about Wakanda.
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong. (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would confront Doom.” “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?
The answer is quite simple. That is not the real Tchalla aka the Black Panther. It is a robot. More specifically a Tchalla-bot.
If we examine the evidence we find the last time the real Tchalla appeared was during the Skrull's Secret Invasion. After crushing their attempt to conquer Wakanda he personally led a squadron of Wakandan shock troopers into deep space to confront the remaining Skrulls now in rout.
Tchalla has obviously learned a few tricks from his many confrontations with Victor. One was how to steal the power cosmic and the second was the use of surrogates.
Think about it. Could the Shadow King have taken over the real Tchalla. No. Due to his connection with the Panther Spirit and mental prowess the latter of which even impressed Cable.
Storm knew it was a Tchalla-bot and preferred not to interact with it any more than necessary. She was informed that she would have to go through several trials as queen during Tchalla's absence. The first to be willing to sacrifice her self, the second commune with the Panther Spirit and finally be willing to relinquish the throne if she chose not to be the BP.
The Tchalla-bot also explains why Shuri was not accepted by the Panther Spirit.
“The book won't end the way a lot of people think it will. And I may get burned at the stake for how I end things, but I maintain that it is the best way to end this story.” Maberry ;) ;D
Nope, not a Pantherbot (though I have wondered if he has them).
No what really happened is worse. We're going to find out that the Skrulls actually won. What we didn't see was right after the final page when all Wakandan tech was still down, the next wave of Skrulls showed up with all their working weapons and ships and vaporized the nearly Wakandan military. The Desturi are actually the true Wakandans and their rebelling against the Skrulls. BP, Shuri and Storm are Skrulls.
(The sad thing is someone might actually write this.)
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would confront Doom.” “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would confront Doom.” “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?
Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would confront Doom.” “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?
Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...
With apologies to the great Isley Brothers:
It's their thing.
They do what they want to do.
Neither you, nor I...nor any other non-LCB-RD sort\
may tell them who to sock it to.
Therefore, they've been socking it to T'Challa and most every other black comicbook character for a long time and will continue to do so as long as it puts the duckets in their buckets.
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would confront Doom.” “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?
Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...
With apologies to the great Isley Brothers:
It's their thing.
They do what they want to do.
Neither you, nor I...nor any other non-LCB-RD sort\
may tell them who to sock it to.
Therefore, they've been socking it to T'Challa and most every other black comicbook character for a long time and will continue to do so as long as it puts the duckets in their buckets.
I don't get how T'challa isn't the star of Doomwar. But for some odd reason...we are getting news about everyone else except him. Storm, Doom who is the title star, Shuri, The FF, War Machine, Deadpool....
But T'challa "I'm not the Star of Doomwar" for some reason there is no news.
I don't see how this is a "big year" to T'challa. It's been almost two years...and he is no where in Sept. Solits.
Another insightful poster Onyenkwere had this to say:
"It's a race based issue. End of story.
Another insightful poster Onyenkwere had this to say:
"It's a race based issue. End of story.
The fictional Wakandans are African and for some strange "unknown" some readers can't bring themselves to accept Wakanda and her people as viable entities without also attaching all manner of negatives to their character."
"This is clearly illustrated in the persistent and pronounced questioning of any and all feats achieved by T'Challa as the Black Panther with some readers frothing rabidly at the proverbial mouth anytime T'Challa is accurately portrayed as the charismatic, mysterious and exceedingly able protagonist that he is."
"Very few heroes in the MU are placed under the intense scrutiny that T'Challa is and after awhile, one gets really fed up of the blatant double-standards that seem to obtain whenever Wakanda and T'Challa are in the frame."
"I guess some folks don't like the concept of a totally self-sufficient and advanced sovereign African nation fictional or otherwise."
NUFF SAID
The fictional Wakandans are African and for some strange "unknown" some readers can't bring themselves to accept Wakanda and her people as viable entities without also attaching all manner of negatives to their character."
"I guess some folks don't like the concept of a totally self-sufficient and advanced sovereign African nation fictional or otherwise."
Not disagreeing, but there is an additional factor--something I have seen in the last 20 years and isn't limited to comics. I call it the "tarnishing of Heroes"
On Deep Space Nine, Odo was a man of utmost integrity, until they decide to tell a story to show us that he doesn't shine so bright--he didn't always have integrity; he cheated the system once.
Recently, we have seen Professor X turned from an honest man who sought the best for his students and the world to a cold Machevellin manipulator who got a team of mutants killed and hid it. Then he knowingly enslaves a new form of life to serve his purposes. (Edited/Addition: I think no one has been humiliated, jerked around and written down as much as Xavier. He was once "George Washington"--the hero of his people, the man with the Dream, the one they all trusted and looked up to. Now he is a cross between Nixon and George W Bush. He has betrayed them, betrayed his "son" and they no longer trust him as their leader.)
Tony Stark became such a jerk that the only way to save the character as a hero was erase his memory and start over.
Reed Richards takes his absent mindedness to abanding his principles and he and Tony build Clor that kills Goliath.
Doctor Strange starts making so many mistakes (bad ones) he's fired.
Then there is the whole Illumanti buisness--it was written to tarnish the great heros.
Then Peter makes a deal with the devil.
Thor went insane with the Odin-power and took over the earth.
There is a group of fans/writers who cannot bear "perfect" high-standard heroes, so they have to taint them.
Look at the movies, Superman is a peeping tom and Batman let's his enemy die when he could have saved him. "I don't have to save you" he says. Batman, the superhero, would because he is "better than us."
The excuse they use is "better drama" or "Perfect is boring" or "more realistic", but the truth is, they cannot see the possibility of or advantages of having nobler heroes.
So, if they cannot accept perfect in the "big guys", and for some,when you add in racist attitudes, then of course they cannot accept perfect Wakanda.
(BTW, these comments are meant as generalizations, not absolutes; some people may want more drama in Wakanda for other reasons. Nor am I saying that "perfect is boring" is necessarily wrong. Sometimes I think that, but I also think that making sure no one "shines" isn't healthy either.)
<<On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well>>
Which proves my point--the reason Wolverine wasn't tarnished was that he was always tanrished. Some of the things they added, like making him a samuraii, was to shine him up a bit, but ultimately, his sucess is due in large part to the fact that he was what people wanted--tarnished heroes. He was heroic because it was a job, he's a tad crazy, he liked to fight but never, or rarely, have we seen Wolvie esposing a "higher calling". (Which, btw, BP does and it works against him in a society that expects all leaders to be corrupt. If BP was actually secretly corrupt, people might like him better, but being the nobliest hero, works against him in an era that doesn't believe in heroes.)
<<On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well>>
Which proves my point--the reason Wolverine wasn't tarnished was that he was always tanrished. Some of the things they added, like making him a samuraii, was to shine him up a bit, but ultimately, his sucess is due in large part to the fact that he was what people wanted--tarnished heroes. He was heroic because it was a job, he's a tad crazy, he liked to fight but never, or rarely, have we seen Wolvie esposing a "higher calling". (Which, btw, BP does and it works against him in a society that expects all leaders to be corrupt. If BP was actually secretly corrupt, people might like him better, but being the nobliest hero, works against him in an era that doesn't believe in heroes.)
The Black Panther was very noble in Avengers #52 when after defeating the Grim Reaper and saving Avengers Hawkeye, Wasp, and Goliath, he accepted the official invitation to join the Avengers with these words: "Then let the word go forth...that today, you have gained a new ally...one who has given up a throne, that he may better serve a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself! For now, the Panther is truly an Avenger!!"
I would think T'Challa's sentiment expressed by that emphatic statement would have garnered the character LCB-RD fans who would be loyal to present day. This is a T'Challa who was willing to leave Wakanda, surrender his throne, to serve what his character stated was "a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself!" The LCB-RD seems to want their Black Panther both ways, all ways, because in truth, many of the LCB-RD doesn't want the Black Panther at all. Some say T'Challa only cares for Wakandans primarily, perhaps black people secondarily..and if you happen to be a white out-worlder you're just S.O.L. Here is a T'Challa who was overjoyed and honored to have become an Avenger and was willing to spend most of his waking hours in the U.S. fighting alongside the Avengers in defense of a kingdom "greater" than Wakanda.
But wait, Christopher Priest - a brilliant writer to be sure - introduces Panther stories told through the perceptions of a white man, introduces T'Challa's white half-brother who leads a secret police organization outfitted in white Black Panther habits. Priest's T'Challa had a serious romantic involvement with a white woman - something that seems to tarnish black males and at least 2 black superheroes - Hancock and John Stewart - both of whom had their onscreen smooches with white women roundly criticized in some circles. Christopher Priest writes a T'Challa who is slowly losing his mind and prone to grievous errors in judgement, but the topper is this:
Christopher Priest wrote a Panther who completely trashed the reputation and "good will" of the T'Challa in Avengers #52 and other earlier issues of the book. Christopher Priest tarnished T'Challa's image by having the character admit that the only reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. That "secret" agenda of spying on people he'd pledged his honor to as an ally seems a sufficiently "corrupt" act to have tarnished T'Challa to the point where the perception of his nobility would be irrevocably altered. In some cases, I'm sure T'Challa's admission did tarnish him in the eyes of some fans, those fans who didn't already consider him tarnished, that is.
T'Challa was already tarnished in the eyes of many of that certain segment of the LCB-RD. Priest's further tarnishing of the character didn't seem to improve T'Challa's standing with them, nor did it seem to help him with the LCB-RD overall.
All the above did was to make B.P.'s joining of the Avengers more "logical" in retrospect.
All the above did was to make B.P.'s joining of the Avengers more "logical" in retrospect.
Not saying Priest's twist on the circumstances made the Panther's joining the Avengers logical or illogical, but I would like to know what about Priest's re-working of the motivation the Panther had for joining the Avengers makes sense beyond what has already been put out there, i.e. T'Challa's desire to keep his enemies close and his friends closer lest those friends become super-powered threats to his Wakanda.
Rabid anti-MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY types decry the lack of a proper "build-up" over time in the romantic relationship of T'Challa and Ororo. They claim this lack of backstory evidence of a growing affection between the two characters makes the MARRIAGE nothing but a sham, "forced", "rushed" attempt to link a popular character to a less popular character, the fact the characters were of different genders and both were black being the ultimate reason for this "farce".
In Avengers #51, Cap contacts the Avengers after having left the team in ish #47. Cap tells Hawkeye, Goliath, and Wasp that he is on an island near Africa with a special friend of his adding that with their permission, that HE...that CAP suggested he join the Avengers as his replacement. He introduces his special friend as T'Challa, the Black Panther. The three Avengers reply, "If you vouch for him, Cap...he's as good as in." Positioned near Cap, T'Challa muses, "I'm known by so few outside my native land. Who could blame them if they refuse..?" I suppose supporters of Priest's twist might view these musings as T'Challa silently wondering how his then-future plans to spy on the Avengers could come to fruition if at that time, the 3 Avengers had replied, "You want us to accept some joe we've never seen, never heard of...just on your say so? No wonder you've got tiny wings on your cowl, you wingNUT. Hell no. We don't just accept any bozo off the street."
In Avengers #52, T'Challa joins the Avengers and is proud to do so. T'Challa did leave the Avengers for brief periods to return to Wakanda and his regal duties there, but he always returned to the Avengers. As with other Avengers, T'Challa often questioned if being an Avenger was right for him. During his early romance with Monica Lynne, T'Challa often seemed stung by her suggestion that the Black Panther's status with the "high and mighty Avengers" made him aloof to and separated from "his people". Monica wasn't referring to the Wakandans. She was referring to black Americans. However, in issue #112 following another battle with the Lion God, T'Challa seemingly renews the vow made to the Avengers way back in ish #52: " I cannot limit myself solely to my African Kingdom. If I am to fight evil, I must be able to fight it on any part of the globe! That is why--the Black Panther will remain an Avenger." And T'Challa remained an Avenger up to and through the time when the Avengers fought the Defenders and was present in Avengers #177 when the entire team was killed by Korvac.
Not once during that entire time was it even intimated that the Panther was an Avenger for the purposes of spying on them. Besides, how would the death of their King in the service of a foreign superhero organization possibly be of any benefit to Wakanda? There were real opportunities where T'Challa could have been killed, the Avengers' battle alongside Captain Marvel against Thanos being one and again, T'Challa did actually die in the battle against Korvac. Does taking such a risk seem like something a master strategist and devoted king to his nation would do?
When the MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY naysayers start with their lack of proper build-up of a relationship nonsense, I'd respond that all build-ups aren't helpful or necessary. Who wants a build up of wax in their ears or a build up of fungus under their toe nails? The build up of the relationship between Ororo and Forge would have yielded a similarly nasty and repugnant result. Forge and Wolverine are both woefully inadequate when it comes to husband or even lover material for Ororo. T'Challa fits that bill..."perfectly". Conversely, I'm having a hard time seeing the sense of retroactively making T'Challa's Avengers service into one long spy mission. However, Priest wrote it such and it is what it is. I tend to think that spying on the Avengers does make the Black Panther an even darker, mysterious, and potentially menacing character. I believe the admission should have had the effect of tarnishing his so-called perfect and noble image and that he is an anti-hero in that respect.
But it wasn't "one long spy mission" as you put it.
While Priest's T'Challa may have JOINED the Avengers to see if they were a possible threat to the realm, he STAYED because he liked it there. Prest didn't retcon out the "Luke Charles" school-teacher stuff you will notice. While some comics fans will want everything painfully spelled out for them, it shoud be fairly clear that by the time T'challa decides to take up a secret I.D. in the states he trusts the Avengers completely (if he didn't trust them he'd of stuck closer to the mansion to keep an eye on them).
The Retcon only purpose was to give T'Challa some cred as being a guy who ALWAYS has his own agenda, at least at first.
Priest had the right idea. Everything he did was not correct, but they were moves that pretty much shut down a lot of B.S. I had no issue with Hunter. He was irony at it’s best…and pretty much kills the notion that “wakandans are racist” he was a super-partiot and was not actually wakandan.
I will have to side with K.I.P on this one. I don’t want noble-doormat T’challa, I want flawed-bad ass T’challa.
Priest wrote what he wrote. His adjustments and retcons give some readers the impression that T'Challa emerges as "bad-assed". If this is the case, then Kip's suggestion that T'Challa's "higher calling" and sense of nobility has hurt him and that tarnishing his image might help, has been satisfied. T'Challa does not come off as noble with his admission that he joined the Avengers to spy on them and to determine if they could/would become a threat to Wakanda in the future. Has this retcon helped T'Challa? Did the retcon help T'Challa? I would have to say it has not. The Black Panther being who and what he is, his character will always encounter rough sledding where the LCB-RD is concerned.
I don't see a problem with his reasoning in joining the Avengers. Any person with common sense could see the United States with these "powers" as a threat.
What I'm trying to figure out is how does it make sense for a man to place his country on the line for the "greater good"? How is it greater good if your country is at risk? "hey we saved threat that attack the United States, but sh*t is going down back at home"
Priest's run is a mixed bag. It should have made BP more fitting for the modern audience. Back in the 60s nobility was seen in leaving your homeland to protect the greater part of the world; today that would be seen as selling-out. In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage.
And that's a second thing, betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character." It's making someone untrustworthy.
That can work on some characters, but it's a fine line. Batman did the same thing, but he walked the line better because a) inside the story they dealt with his betrayal. It nearly tore the JLA apart and then they came to peace with it. It took about a year or two to settle down. Unless you read Priest's run, you didn't have any idea what was happening except betrayal. b) Batman was already a fan-favorite by the time this storyline appeared, so it was considered just part of the story. CP was trying to re-establish BP but he didn't have the number of readers reading the story and seeing how he dealt with it. Word of mouth is not the way this information gets passed among, correctly.
So for Black Panther, all that got passed along is--betrayal.
Then you have to add into this Wakanda. The word of mouth is the Wakandans went from being allies to, at the best, enemies. They were no long a open people working and going to college in the Western World, they were xenophobic.
And these were the people that BP betrayed Captain America for. Now inside the story, that might work, but the word of mouth touches more people than actual readers, it ends up emphazing the wrong thing.
(You realize how weird this thread is going? We got on to the topic--why do writers tarnish Black heroes or Wakanda? Now we're onto why didn't it help BP's sales when it's obvious the direction people want.)
I wasn't clear, I mean putting heritage above the "greater" need. I don't mean, being proud or acting from your hertiage.
That is, in the 60s and 70s he saw serving the world as the best way, But now he puts Wakanda above the world. (Well, at least until the current storyline. Now his pride seems more important than either.). Or look at this way, 60s Black Panther would have joined the Illuminati with noble goals of helping the world. Where Priest's BP would have joined them to keep an eye on them. And Reggie's avoided it all as a bad idea. (Though it might have helped his sales if he did join them.)
In the SoS storyline we see him joining the greater global community, "all black man are his people.". The modern day BP ignores worse tragedies in his neighbors, who are also Black men. (Or there is subtle, utimately meaningless help) Why? Because national heritage is more important than the global community.
<< And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house :>>
That's my point! Tarnishing (as I'm using the term) takes a piece of gold and ruins some of its shine, but it stays gold. Betrayal can say, "this aint gold, it's fool's gold".
It got in the way of establishing him ""bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none.". Especially when most of this came word of mouth, rather than thru actual reading.
<<T'Challa puts Wakanda above the world, but puts his friendship with the FF above Wakanda? After the Civil War, Reed and Sue needed a little "alone time" during which they asked T'Challa and Ororo to "substitute" for them as members of the FF.>>
I came away with the impression that he did that with an alterior motive, one of which was to stick it to Tony because Storm wouldn't register. (And he wanted them gone, I think.) And the other involved something that never seemed to manifest; so it may have been me reading too much into it. But the FF seemed like (in part) a cover, possibly to figure out how the new status quo effects everyone.
But either way, I didn't see that as putting FF above Wakanda, because there was no crisis as home at that moment and didn't he also stay because of the bombing of his embassy?
That is, in the 60s and 70s he [T'Challa] saw serving the world as the best way, But now he puts Wakanda above the world. (Well, at least until the current storyline. Now his pride seems more important than either.).
<<IIRC, at the time Storm and the Black Panther were substituting for Sue and Reed with the FF, the Cannibal was on the loose and the Skrull Brother Voodoo was among one of many Skrulls laying the groundwork for their invasion of Wakanda. And now, as we Panther/Storm fans have become painfully aware, the Desturi was very likely becoming a very real and dangerous threat, possibly with Dr. Doom's help at that time. I wouldn't think the Panther and Storm's prolonged absence from Wakanda would escape Doom's notice, especially seeing as the Panther and Storm were subbing for his most hated enemies. The Wakandan Royals were away from Wakanda for a very, very long time. Regardless of why he did so, T'Challa put he and Ororo's presence in the FF at a higher priority than returning to Wakanda. The real reason for the Wakandan Royal's FF adventures was likely to keep them connected to the MU proper. >>
The real reason was external to the storyline. But as far as the in-story reason, he knew nothing about all those bad things happening/about to happen in Wakanda.
But either way, I didn't see that as putting FF above Wakanda, because there was no crisis as home at that moment and didn't he also stay because of the bombing of his embassy?
So, again, I don't see it as putting FF before Wakanda. Mostly I see it as another example of T'challa making a wrong decision.
A person suffering from paranoia might see the Avengers as agents of the U.S. and as such, a threat. However, the Avengers weren't known as "The United State's Mightiest Heroes" were they? They were regarded as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". Had the Avengers constituted a threat to Wakanda at that time, what could the Black Panther have done to avert it? One highly-skilled, physically-enhanced human being against the likes of beings capable of growing to a height of 25ft, physical strength growing in proportion to his height, an Asgardian or an Olympian "god", (take your pick, or choose both) an android capable of intangibility or increasing his atoms to immeasurable mass, etc...? Did Wakanda have contingency plans in place to deal with Galactus and the Avengers as well? The better-prepared Wakanda of today has been taken apart by the machinations of Dr. Doom and is teetering on the brink of destruction. And T'Challa's joining the Avengers to spy on them to assess if they were a potential threat to his Wakanda would have accomplished just what exactly?That is simple. A group of superpowers that "just so happened" to live in the United States, that "just so happened" to be US citizens and "just so happened" to be HQ'd in NYC bonding together for one common goal? And that doesn't place fears or concerns in any other country out there? Are you kidding me? This team suddenly came out of nowhere and they decided to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" Who told them or allowed them to claim that title? Superpowers were in the UK, Canada, Wakanda (kind of), Atlantis, Japan and other nations so why none of these countries had a representative to be considered "earth's mightiest heroes"
When Thanos attacked the earth, he didn't make a beeline for Wakanda with the objective of taking them out first, if at all. Thanos was a world threat. The Lion God attacked T'Challa twice while he was an Avenger and twice, T'Challa was able to defeat the Lion God with the aid of the Avengers. In Avengers #61, the Avengers - the Black Panther, Hawkeye, the Vision, and the Black Knight - had to assist Dr. Strange in defeating the global threat of "fire and ice" posed by the fire demon Surtur, and the ice demon Ymir. While Surtur was melting Antarctica, Ymir was in Africa freezing the Wakandans into icicles. That's right, Ymir chose to attack Wakanda. So, you ask "How is it the greater good if your country is at risk?" My answer to you was provided by T'Challa's and the Vision's spirited defense of Wakanda which lead not only to Wakanda being saved, but the world as well.Yes he is a world threat but T'challa didn't have to be an avenger to seek out assistance neither. Most likely the Avengers would have gotten in contact with all of the superpowers that weren't Avengers for their aid. Or since they were "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" they would have showed up to his country anyway to combat this villain.
That is simple. A group of superpowers that "just so happened" to live in the United States, that "just so happened" to be US citizens and "just so happened" to be HQ'd in NYC bonding together for one common goal? And that doesn't place fears or concerns in any other country out there? Are you kidding me?
This team suddenly came out of nowhere and they decided to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" Who told them or allowed them to claim that title? Superpowers were in the UK, Canada, Wakanda (kind of), Atlantis, Japan and other nations so why none of these countries had a representative to be considered "earth's mightiest heroes"
Yes I know of the need to fight Loki to assist Thor, but once the dust settles why didnt they seek out for other heroes in other nations? There was no international flavor until five years of stories later.
Yes he is a world threat but T'challa didn't have to be an avenger to seek out assistance neither. Most likely the Avengers would have gotten in contact with all of the superpowers that weren't Avengers for their aid. Or since they were "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" they would have showed up to his country anyway to combat this villain.
Priest's run is a mixed bag. It should have made BP more fitting for the modern audience. Back in the 60s nobility was seen in leaving your homeland to protect the greater part of the world; today that would be seen as selling-out. In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage.
How should Priest's run had made Black Panther "more fitting for the modern audience" ...that audience being dominated now as it has always been by the LCB-RD? Priest threw everything white at that segment of the modern audience except perhaps, for the white kitchen sink. The LCB-RD was seemingly unimpressed. So what else might Priest have done to appeal to "the modern audience"? Priest's run had sex - the Dora Milaje Nakia and Okoye were foinne. Priest's run had action and high-level intrigue. Priest's Black Panther even had a biracial U.S. citizen operating as the Black Panther, and not just as the Black Panther, but as an anti-hero Black Panther. Kasper Kole wore a way-cool trench coat similar to what Gambit was wearing, only cooler, and Kole carried a gun, ala the Punisher. The LCB-RD remained seemingly unimpressed.
And that's a second thing, betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character." It's making someone untrustworthy.
??? Come again?
"...betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character." It's making someone untrustworthy.
When fmr President Richard Nixon resigned his Office on the heels of the Watergate Scandal, his legacy was forever tarnished by that event. People remember Nixon's diplomatic trip to China, but they remember Watergate more. The American people saw Watergate and Nixon's alleged involvement in the scandal as a betrayal. If most Americans weren't certain of Nixon's guilt or innocence, they certainly viewed him as untrustworthy. History will remember Nixon as a "less than pristine character".QuoteThat can work on some characters, but it's a fine line. Batman did the same thing, but he walked the line better because a) inside the story they dealt with his betrayal. It nearly tore the JLA apart and then they came to peace with it. It took about a year or two to settle down. Unless you read Priest's run, you didn't have any idea what was happening except betrayal. b) Batman was already a fan-favorite by the time this storyline appeared, so it was considered just part of the story. CP was trying to re-establish BP but he didn't have the number of readers reading the story and seeing how he dealt with it. Word of mouth is not the way this information gets passed among, correctly.
T'Challa isn't Bruce Wayne. The Black Panther isn't Batman, nor should he be. The Black Panther doesn't need to be a second-rate Batman to be relevant. The Black Panther is a magnificent character in his own right and it's past time he should be regarded and respected as such.QuoteSo for Black Panther, all that got passed along is--betrayal.
And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house :DQuoteThen you have to add into this Wakanda. The word of mouth is the Wakandans went from being allies to, at the best, enemies. They were no long a open people working and going to college in the Western World, they were xenophobic.
I can't remember a time when the Wakandans were regarded as anybody's ally. Yes, the Wakandans sent their young people to Western nations to be educated in disciplines not indigenous to Wakanda. Wakanda also sent spies all over the world. Lastly, the Wakandans as a people, have always been xenophobic.QuoteAnd these were the people that BP betrayed Captain America for. Now inside the story, that might work, but the word of mouth touches more people than actual readers, it ends up emphazing the wrong thing.
There is nothing at all improper about T'Challa - the King of Almighty Wakanda - looking out for and serving his people. If I spied on someone or some organization to assess if they posed a threat to me or not, and I was able to do so undetected, why on earth would I later admit to that person or to that organization that I ever spied on them? For one thing, I might need to spy on that person or organization in the future. Admitting to them that I spied on them would make any future spying impossible. For another, having admitted that I spied on that person or organization, I now invite that same scrutiny to be applied to me. In basketball there is a saying, "Teams that press don't like to be pressed." Nations who spy don't like to be spied on.Quote(You realize how weird this thread is going? We got on to the topic--why do writers tarnish Black heroes or Wakanda? Now we're onto why didn't it help BP's sales when it's obvious the direction people want.)
SOME people want to see a tarnished T'Challa. I want to see a proud, powerful, paragon of virtue T'Challa
By the time Anti-Hero Kaspar Cole shows up, the Black Panther's sales were ALREADY below 19,000. Nobody was reading the damn thing by then.
So who was to know there was an Anti-hero Black Panther in the cat suit?
The readers didn't just leave because Kaspar was now the Panther, either. The title tended to lose about 1000 readers a month well before Kasper ever showed up.
Fans might have LOVED Kasper Cole if they had any idea that he exists.
And there's no reason to think they do. The Crew (the only other book in which Cole appears) got cancelled after 6 issues.
Given that the Avengers are a team with top secret clearances, access and such, having BP (let alone an international crew) is a stretch. The Avengers are sortof a private firm that works for the US's DOD.
Given that the Avengers are a team with top secret clearances, access and such, having BP (let alone an international crew) is a stretch. The Avengers are sortof a private firm that works for the US's DOD.
Deadpool was a plot device that I just let be. Doom not caring about loosing resources because he is about to become the most powerful being in the worldis another cliche that should have been avoided. The Midnight Angels....we will just have to wait until the next issue to see how bad they are.
".... Shuri getting down and dirty with the Broker."
Doc Doom is tough enough to give a entire superteam trouble in a stand up fight.
Doc Doom is tough enough to give a entire superteam trouble in a stand up fight.
Doc Doom is so tough, soooooo tough. And yet, when Doc Voodoo punched Doc Doom in the nose and told him, "Fight's over. You lost. Go home." Doc Doom picked himself up, opened himself a space temporal (whatever) portal of some sort, and carried his broke behind home. It's not that Doom is "so tough". It's just that he's been written "so tough" especially in this instance. Maberry is writing a nearly perfect Doom who has out-performed T'Challa from the beginning. Maberry himself posted that Doom is a "monster". Who is the LCB-RD rooting for in this "fight"? Doom has humiliated and effectively emasculated T'Challa in this story and the LCB-RD is eating it up.
When Hudlin made the "mistake" of writing T'Challa the Black Panther in the way the character was intended, the LCB-RD said, "He's too perfect!" Maberry is writing a perfect, perfectly monstrous Dr. Doom and the LCB-RD couldn't be any happier.
Deadpool was a plot device that I just let be. Doom not caring about loosing resources because he is about to become the most powerful being in the worldis another cliche that should have been avoided. The Midnight Angels....we will just have to wait until the next issue to see how bad they are.
".... Shuri getting down and dirty with the Broker."
Shuri may or may not be getting "down and dirty with the Broker" in the future, but it certainly looked as if the "plot device" definitely has that goal in mind where the Midnight Angels are concerned. It may not be necessary to wait until the next issue to see just how bad the elite Dora Milaje is. They can't be all that if their lack of focus is any indication. Wakanda is at war. Their former King, their "beloved" T'Challa is having to pull out all stops to defeat Wakanda's enemy. Wakanda's former Queen Ororo, the Princess Regent and Black Panther Shuri and their Dora Milaje sisters are in vicious combat with this despicable enemy, many have died in battle. And rather than the Midnight Angels giving T'Challa their undivided attention, they are gathered around Marvel Comics' superhero hybrid answer to Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck though not as funny and not nearly as entertaining as they. And what is this? One of the Midnight Angels actually appears to be entertaining Deadfool's flirtatious foolishness....during a time of extreme peril for Wakanda?
These are the Midnight Angels?
What happened to the infamous Wakandan "xenophobia"? This stupid outworlder no sooner sets his eyes on the Midnight Angels than he is already primed and ready to try to get into their pants. And apparently, one of the Midnight Angels seems all too eager to let him have a go at it. That Midnight Angel is set to become Deadfool's "undercover angel, midnight fantasy". Disgusting. Disgusting.
It's looking more and more as if T'Challa's victory - if indeed he will even achieve a victory at all - will not be one his fans will find satisfactory.
As Kip stated there are inconsistencies. For example didn't it take spiderwoman
Doc Doom is so tough, soooooo tough. And yet, when Doc Voodoo punched Doc Doom in the nose and told him, "Fight's over. You lost. Go home." Doc Doom picked himself up, opened himself a space temporal (whatever) portal of some sort, and carried his broke behind home.
It's not that Doom is "so tough". It's just that he's been written "so tough" especially in this instance. Maberry is writing a nearly perfect Doom who has out-performed T'Challa from the beginning. Maberry himself posted that Doom is a "monster". Who is the LCB-RD rooting for in this "fight"? Doom has humiliated and effectively emasculated T'Challa in this story and the LCB-RD is eating it up.
When Hudlin made the "mistake" of writing T'Challa the Black Panther in the way the character was intended, the LCB-RD said, "He's too perfect!" Maberry is writing a perfect, perfectly monstrous Dr. Doom and the LCB-RD couldn't be any happier.
too early to determine
Ture as much as I like your insightful posts, I have to point out that Doom is a gypsy. He is (fictionally) from one of the most vilified groups in the history of Europe. At this very moment gypsies are still being segregated and in some instances culturally purged.
What relevance does this have to anything Ture said?
Tchalla was acting like a characiture of some stereotypical slave confronted by his equally stereotypical master.
QuoteWhat relevance does this have to anything Ture said?
You're too trigger happy, slow down.QuoteTchalla was acting like a characiture of some stereotypical slave confronted by his equally stereotypical master.
I read that and then I remembered that Doom was a gypsy.
While it maybe true CKW that the Gypsy people are vilified, they have in Doom a person of supreme self mastery and someone who is able to exact revenge to its fullest extent upon those who did him wrong. Tchalla the Black Panther is (fictionally) from one of the most besieged people on earth. Afrakans have had their some of their homelands looted, some of their religious sites desecrated and some of their people enslaved for centuries. It would have been worth while to see the Black Panther (being the supremely self mastered man he is) exact some righteous retribution to those who wronged him.
Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that. Dr. Doom mastery of it in a couple of days…insulting.
Salustrade I feel you man.
Doomwar is part of Maberry's trifecta (Power, Doomwar and Klaws of the Panther) that will continue to dismantle the in story integrity of the Black Panther. The deconstruction of Tchalla and Wakanda are in full effect, next comes the assault on the marriage of Black Panther and Storm. The disintegration of the marriage actually began in Worlds Apart where the writer set precedents to encourage the separation of Storm and Black Panther. Maberry has further significantly contributed to this with his first two works. During Reg's run Ororo and Tchalla were happy. They were in a good place with their marriage. There were of course some challenges to overcome which added the necessary tension. Overall they appeared in love and were sexually active. Under Reg's pen Tchalla and Ororo thought producing an heir was a high priority. Following this Storm to say the least, has not had a pleasant stay in Wakanda. The Power arc made Ororo and Tchalla strangers to each other and Doomwar made them pathetic victims each being forced to view how ineffective the other was. One can only imagine what awaits them in Klaws of the Panther.
Another possible trap about to be sprung is found in the rumor of Tchalla the Black Panther becoming The Man Without Fear, a Daredevil stand in. Collateral damage being the further deconstruction and distancing of Tchalla from the mantle of the Black Panther, Tchalla being removed from Wakanda and becoming another crime fighter in New York, and the continued dismantling of the Black Panther/Storm union. This will result in another failed attempt at making the Black Panther palatable to the LCB.
I hypothesize that the Black Panther is not popular with the LCB for two reasons. The first is that the Black Panther has been inconsistent in development. From Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Roy Thomas and Don McGregor to Priest, Hudlin and Maberry there has yet to be a tangible congruency. It maybe difficult for the LCB to have an affinity with a character whose core essence is so mutable. The Black Panther's mannerisms and style shift from confident and controlled to passive and congenial, from manipulative and calculative to contrite and broken. All this may make him difficult to grasp. The LCB may look at him as being given certain tributaries that he hasn't earned. He is one the eight smartest men on the planet but he hasn't had the consistent track record of comparable scientific breakthroughs and technological developments that are on par with Richards, Stark or Doom. The Black Panther is considered one of the world's greatest combatants, yet is rarely seen accomplishing the physical feats of Captain America, Wolverine or Daredevil. Tchalla should at least be mention worthy (in the company of Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo) when it comes to magic and sorcery. The mystical component that should be inherent in the Black Panther has all but been ignored until recently. The LCB may have been more supportive of the marriage if they witnessed more adventures with the Xmen, that put Tchalla and Ororo in romantic and sexual situations culminating in an conflict with both Forge and Logan.
The second reason I hypothesize is that the LCB which is mostly Caucasians does not find it necessary to identify with Afrakan superheroes. They have not been conditioned to accept in others what they cannot find in themselves. Caucasians will not see an Afrakan characters as superior or relatable when there are white characters to do so with. They create their A list and discern who should qualify for it. I don't see them as racist or morally wrong for doing such. They are in fact correct. The confusion occurs when their actions (as defined by them) are considered universal when in fact they are just Eurocentric.
Afrakan people have been the Black Panther's staunchest supporters. Our requirements differ from those of the LCB in regards to why the Black Panther is so popular with us. We read between the lines and what is off panel to fill in what years of inconsistent publishing have left out. This is essential, because all Marvel's so called top tier characters have been given structurally sound core character development since their inception, compounded with decades of consistent character evolution. So even when experimentation with a character goes awry the foundational attributes of the character draw it back to its center. It is centering on the core essence of the Black Panther that is required not deconstruction. Priest, Reg and McDuffy because of who they are, infused into the Black Panther some of the core cultural values and sensibilities that distinguish us from the LCB. This is why the Black Panther is an A list character, it is our list.
You are more than welcome Salustrade, and thank you.
<<Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that.>>
Why? 1st, we have seen that T'challa and who knows how many previous BP's surpressed some fields of magic. B) to be masters of all vibrabium magic means they would have to know every kinds of magic. It is very clear in the MU, magic is very varied. Maybe this only works when combined with Dark Elf Norse Magic which the PG would not tolerate in his lands. Magic is too "wild" in the MU to assume that they should have known. C) Wakandans weren't warmongers so either they never even to purse this or they could have discovered in 9000 yrs ago then promptly erased all records of it and forbade that type of research. D) this is standard storytelling--the outsider sees something the long term experts missed.
My apologies for taking so long to post. There is no evidence of vibranium particles to my knowledge prior to Doomwar, Salustrade.
Maberry has contributed two potentially interesting concepts. Tchalla independently discovering Shadow Physics and his creating the Nowhere Room. These are excellent additions to Panther lore. The question is will they get any use. The Techno Jungle and N'yami battle cruisers continue to be ignored. I think any writer of the Black Panther should give the characters breathing room. By that I mean challenging adventures based upon canon and a clear understanding of who the characters are in relation to one another. For example...
The idea of the Black Panther vs Dr. Doom I believe would work better if it were a cold war, more indirect. Two genius monarchs of two very powerful nations engage in a political game of one-up menship where the consequences have global and trans dimensional affects. The Black Panther and Dr. Doom physically confronting each other should occur rarely and when they do be the climax of of a major story arc. The success or failure would lie in the purpose of what brought them to a conflict and the skillful execution of their interactions. The success or failure would also be determined by how well the writer understands the underlying motivations of both characters. In future Black Panther vs Dr. Doom episodes I hope this will be the case.
The comparison of Tchalla and Shuri I believe would work better if there were clearer distinctions between them. These distinction would not however be at Tchalla's expense. I cite the following: Tchalla would wear the habit as created during Priest's run. This habit would include the light armor Reg introduced as well. Shuri would wear the armor first introduced in the Power arc as her permanent costume. Shuri would pride herself on being better prepared and more on the cutting edge. For all her bravado, she and her team cannot figure out how Tchalla's costume morphs or shifts to armor mode. The techno jungle would be Tchalla base of operation away from state affairs. Shuri would use the Caves of Bast which were designed and built by Tchalla with her in mind. Shuri of course would have made some modifications to suit her needs but is endlessly impressed with her brother's genius. Tchalla would have the Hatut Zeraze and the Dora Milaje while Shuri had the Mid Night Angels and her P.R.I.D.E. Basically Shuri is trying to mirror Tchalla and every step along the way she finds it more difficult to keep up. Tchalla is king and the Black Panther period. His primary duties keep him in Wakanda while Shuri now known as Panthera (I know, I know but it's after 4:00 AM) is put in charge of the Wakandan Design Group. She being a free spirit and not wanting to be in Tchalla's shadow travels around the world as WDG's CEO, doing business and insuring Wakanda's proprietary technology and intellectual property. This to me is a win/win situation.
Tchalla and Ororo. Reg had the best concept for them during the World Tour arc. Arguably the most powerful couple in the superhero community the King and Queen of Wakanda should be seen handling the state affairs and interacting with the Xmen on a regular basis. Forget the Avengers (the cartoon is a separate matter). Ignore The Man Without Fear nonsense. The Black Panther needs to be with the Xmen simply by virtue of who his wife is. The conflicts arising from Tchalla not fully trusting the Xmen and them not really welcoming him for much the same reason. With Ororo caught in the middle, Emma Frost does her best to create a rift between Tchalla and Storm. This would provide excellent fodder. The Black Panther vs the Xmen slowly brews as tensions between Scott and Tchalla reach a crisis point when the death of a young mutant on Wakandan soil pushes the Xmen to the brink when the Black Panther won't let them investigate for some unknown reason that only he and Storm know. The inevitable fisticuffs ensues. Manipulating situations and circumstances from behind the scenes is Mr. Sinister. Ororo demonstrates her wisdom as she shows each of them they have a lot more in common than they know. Another situation erupts when the Black Panther and Storm who are visiting Egypt celebrating their anniversary when they come across an ancient artifact that the Panther spirit wants them to protect from Apocalypse. A foe that is most certainly up to the challenge of Marvels newest power couple. Meanwhile back in Wakanda, the newly resurrected Killmonger, is informed that his usurpation of Tchalla's throne has failed because in his absence an inexperienced yet ambitious would be conquerer has lead the Desturi to defeat. Killmonger learns that his organization the Desturi fell into the hands of Doom after his death. The remnants of the Desturi follow Killmonger to Canaan where Eric teams up with Mosses Magnum for another attempt at taking over Wakadan. Black Panther/Xmen another win/win.
Thank you once again Salustrade, I appreciate what you said. I am glad to see that over at CBR you are getting some much deserved vindication.
I do not write professionally but I have a strong affinity for the Black Panther that goes back many years. My very first Black Panther comic was Jungle Action #13, The God Killer written by Don McGregor. Back in the day I would buy comics from our neighborhood candy store where they came three in a bag without covers. So the first thing I saw was this man leaping, his costume in tatters which was a good thing because it made him look cooler in that snowy environment. His brown flesh peaking out through the tears in his uniform gave me a sense of instant and total identification. The artwork enveloped me and I was immediately immersed into this world of the Black Panther. The colors gave depth and sound to Tchalla's desolate trek across the Wakandan artic. The graphic detail of Tchalla gutting a slain wolf, his gouging out the eyes of a white gorilla, and then that same white gorilla's death by impalement were indelibly etched on the canvas of my young mind.
The writing was beyond my scope at the time. When I reread this story in my teen years I was awe struck. The prose were lyrical and read as if they were taken from some piece of literature. "It is a night when a man can reach and believe he can touch the stars--that he is a part of the cosmological scheme of things. A night when a man could believe he is an integral part of the universe. Not omnipotent. Not superior. Just unique and unto himself." Poetry, sheer poetry. The comic concludes with " It would be a terrible agony for a man to meet his gods... especially gods that he never believed in! It would be Hell if that man had to slay those gods. And the question lingers: If he does succeed what does that make him?"
I was so enthralled, so entertained that no other hero hit me quite the same there after. I know some say Don McGregor is too wordy or that he de-powered Tchalla or worst yet had him getting beat down far too often... but back in the day #13 was just magical.
Well I have heard alot of good things about starlin. So what books should I cop other than Adam Warlock? My cosmic experience is annihilation. I really loved what DnL has done with Nova in particular. They have really expanded the cosmic side. It is unfortunate that both books are in hiatus and it isnt looking good. That is basically my last books i get other than the left over subs for DD.
I would be remiss in discussing my first Black Panther experience if I did not mention artist extraordinare Billy Graham.
Hey Salustrade, what was your first Black Panther comic and experience? This question is up for all HEF posters. Reg :D.
BmoreAkuma, one of my favorite Jim Starlin works was DC Comics Presents #29 Superman and the Specter. The story title is Where No Superman Has Gone Before. A superb demonstration of the man of steel's abilities, representing the full spectrum of his awesome power. With all he has going he is still outmatched by the Specter who is a direct agent of the most high whose mission is to prevent Superman's trespass. Another Starlin favorite was Marvel Two In One Presents The Thing and Spider-man King-Sized Annual #2. The concept of personifying order and chaos, an unrequited love for death, cosmic genocide, all in a Star Wars level space opera starring the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Aunt Petunia's favorite blue eyed nephew and your friendly neighborhood wall crawler. Let's not forget Batman The Cult, the first time Batman was "broken". Last but far from least, is the classic The Death of Captain Marvel. A serious and methodic fictional tale that strikes too close to reality to be ignored.
You brought back memories with The Hulk Magazine Catch22.
In a 2005 newspaper interview, Warren mentions tweaking a Rolling Stone reporter who asked about his decision to hire an African-American art director, a rarity in comics at the time: "'What!?' mock-screamed Warren. 'Is Billy black? I didn't know that. Get him in here! Billy, are you black? You're fired!'
Catch22 I remember that issue and still have it. That was a good one. The Hulk was out there for its day. I just thought of the scene when Johnny Bates was raped and said one magic word. Miracleman was another comic milestone.
Oh yea it was controversial BmoreAkuma, an excellent introduction to the Black Panther. The following issue #9 was one of my all time favorites. That issue helped defined Tchalla the Black Panther from then on. Check the dialogue: Scarlet Witch- "I think what he's saying is we should trust him... Black Panther- "Your trust is irrelevant to me, and I am not asking you for anything."
I would be remiss in discussing my first Black Panther experience if I did not mention artist extraordinare Billy Graham. His artwork more so than McGregor's writing attracted me to the Black Panther. The visuals were overwhelming and kept me searching for more. I discussed Jungle Action #13 in the above post, I would like to share some more examples of Billy Graham's exceptional artistry. Jungle Action #16 gave comics one of its greatest romantic love scenes. For five pages we witness a truly beautiful intimacy. Tchalla and Monica diving under the sea while riding giant sea turtles. The silhouettes of them holding one another, the kissing, the intensity is sheer romantic bliss. Jungle Action #18 is an example of perfect Black Panther posturing. The poses Billy Graham uses are unique and organic, accentuating the lithe form that so predicates who Tchalla is. Finally I give you Jungle Action #21. The crucifixion of the Black Panther. Just witnessing Tchalla strapped to a burning cross as Klansmen watch invoked strong emotion. The scenes with Tchalla in the swamp were so vivid that you could smell the cypress and hear the cicada. Billy Graham's attention to detail (notice Tchalla's defiantly clenched fist as he tries to break his bonds on page 2, only to be released as if surrendering to the torment on page 3) lends itself to a mature rendering of an unfortunate reality rarely seen in super hero comics at that time.
In conclusion I leave you with this: Buzz Maverick wrote in Ain't It Cool News, "I know the [Jungle Action] artist, Billy Graham, was black. His cool Marvel Bullpen name was 'The Irreverent' Billy Graham. For me, even though I later learned that Jack Kirby created the Panther, Graham will always be the definitive Panther artist. His art, even more than McGregor's writing, made T'Challa one of what I call the 'grown men' of the Marvel Universe.
Hey Salustrade, what was your first Black Panther comic and experience? This question is up for all HEF posters. Reg :D.
BmoreAkuma, one of my favorite Jim Starlin works was DC Comics Presents #29 Superman and the Specter. The story title is Where No Superman Has Gone Before. A superb demonstration of the man of steel's abilities, representing the full spectrum of his awesome power. With all he has going he is still outmatched by the Specter who is a direct agent of the most high whose mission is to prevent Superman's trespass. Another Starlin favorite was Marvel Two In One Presents The Thing and Spider-man King-Sized Annual #2. The concept of personifying order and chaos, an unrequited love for death, cosmic genocide, all in a Star Wars level space opera starring the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Aunt Petunia's favorite blue eyed nephew and your friendly neighborhood wall crawler. Let's not forget Batman The Cult, the first time Batman was "broken". Last but far from least, is the classic The Death of Captain Marvel. A serious and methodic fictional tale that strikes too close to reality to be ignored.
You brought back memories with The Hulk Magazine Catch22.
What episode was that X-Men cameo in? I don't remember that one. So that means he had two cameos, because I recall another episode where he showed up.
If Tom Bevoort is to be believed, we the public have never seen the real sales numbers, because Marvel doesn't release all their numbers to public. (Of course, he said this to justify the apparent lose of sales after One More Day.)Hmmm I wonder to the stockholders have access to this?
Despite it all, in the end Doomwar was an exercise in futility. Wakanda was never conquered. They can't be financially ruined as they have scores of untapped resources. Not to mention the fact that it has not been stated that all their technology was vibranium based i.e. the vehicle the Black Panther sent to the FF in his first appearance, the Quinjets they manufactures for the Avengers, the undersea vehicles and their space flight technology. Besides in Maberry's own words he said " All the Processed Wakandan vibranium. Gone. Transformed into a useless and inert form." Tchalla being the master strategist he is can more than likely reverse the process. He'll probably do so after he and Ororo return from the Skrull homeward and he removes his Tchallabot from Hell's Kitchen. You heard it first here at the HEF.
Now that Doomwar is history, I wanted to address this notion that Maberry"s sales were higher than Reg's. I read that Doomwar had higher sales than Black Panther. I quote RolandJP #4705 at CBR "Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." I took the liberty of reviewing ICv2's comic index and compared the two.
Hudlin's last 5 BP issues
BP#34- 23,395
BP#35- 21,332
BP#36- 20,841
BP#37- 19,989
BP#38- 19,459
Mayberry's last 5 BP issues
BP#8- 23,020
BP#9- 20,346
BP#10- 19,147
BP#11- 17,989
BP#12- 17,881
Hudlin's Deadliest of the Species
BP#1- 46,699
BP#2- 33,755
BP#3- 33,356
BP#4- 30,984
BP#5- 29,762
BP#6- 29,727
Mayberry's Doomwar
DW#1- 43,241
DW#2- 30,555
DW#3- 27,859
DW#4- 28,307
DW#5- 26,041
DW#6- 24,797
The numbers speak for themselves. Maberry did not out sell Reg.
I also did some thinking about Tchalla's and Ororo's interaction during the Power arc and Doomwar. It would appear that we have not seen the real Black Panther and Storm since the end of Secret Invasion.
The real Tchalla and Ororo are on a mission in deep space. It was they and a battalion of Wakandan warriors that piloted that Skrull ship from the secret invasion back to its homeworld remotely from the bridge of the T'Chaka class flagship. Accompanying them is a cloaked fleet of N'Yami battle cruisers.
They left behind clones of themselves which had the same spiritual essences as the originals. Shuri was made privy to this and later assumed the Panther mantle due to injuries the clone of Tchalla suffered.
It would appear that Tchalla has learned more than just how to take the power cosmic of the Silver Surfer from Doom. He too uses stand-ins when the story goes astray. ;)
I was comparing Maberry's sales of Doomwar to Flags of our fathers. To douse the flames of maberry hate. Not to slam Hudlin. I bought Both books. Flags and Doomwar.
You know Salustrade, I don't think the "hate" will be abated anytime soon especially now that Klaws of the Panther is out.
Upon reading some of posts over at CBR, I wanted to make sure that I did not miss quote RolandJP. He said "Because there is a fan base. look at the initial launch of the Panther series under Hudlin and the second. Jason Aaron's 3 story arc. And Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." From that I extracted " Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." RolandJP never mentioned Flags of Our Fathers in that entire thread.
While I don't think RolandJP was "slamming Hudlin", I do think the Maberry outselling Hudlin is often misapplied. Commentary that lends itself to the concept that "the Black Panther can't hold a title" or that the book has poor sales, need serious evaluation. Examine the fact that some books may not have sales in the twenty thousand or even ten thousand range but are still published continuously. For example: In August, the following posted these sales figures.
Hellblazer #270 - 9,928
Simpsons #169- 7396
Savage dragon #163 - 5,447
Archie #612 - 4,530
All 4 of these titles have sales below those of the Black Panther during Reg's run. What justifies their ongoing publication if the bottom line is the bottom line?
Hey Vic, would Marvel Knights be comparable to Vertigo? If so, do you see any strategies that Marvel could adopt that would be useful in prolonging the longevity of titles like Black Panther?
Kip, I think you brought up an excellent point in trying to compare the two companies. I was attempting to instigate some discourse in hopes of isolating some of the particulars for continual publication and thus see if they would be applicable to the Black Panther.
BmoreAkuma I'm hoping for the best.
Speaking of animating the Black Panther here is a link to the micro episode of BP in the upcoming Avengers cartoon.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA[/url])
I feel you on that Battle. One of the many things I liked about Reg's BP cartoon was the animation. Its art style was unique by virtue of being modeled after Romita Jr.'s, thus rendering an Afrakan-esque aesthetic. The idea of moving away from Anime into something akin to Kirikou and the Sorceress is very appealing to me.
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE.
Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos.
Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE.
Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos.
Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE.
Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos.
Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.
Fourthly,whoever wwrote this is tremendously passionate about TCHALLA and the BLACK PANTHER
Fifthly,whoever wrote this completely ignored the RH TCHALLA who is,without a doubt,the hardest,BLACKEST,most NON-APOLOGETIC TCHALLA that has ever been crafted in a series.Period.RH BP sold morethan any other BP author ever,was the first and OLNLY BP that featured more than 3 Black superheroes in the same book in the same panel at the same time without needing help from White compatriots,and RH pulled off the Marriage of the Centurey and is SINGLE HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EDITORIAL AT MU ELEVATING BP TO "A-LISTER" STATUS.Period.Jason Aaron would have probably broke sales records wide open if he did more than just write an arc starring BP,and his BP is probably the SECRET SUCCESS FORMULA for keeping BP in his own series that is widely embraced by all.D-MAC (Dwayne Macgregor) didn't get a full series in with his BP+ORORO F4 so even though we all know that THE MAESTRO is MADNESS? He hasn't run it like RH has.IfJason Aaron's BP isn't the secret? D-Mac's or J.A.+D-Mac's+CJP+RH+JM--yes Jonathan Maberry--is.
But if you COMBINE these BP's,do you know what you get? CONTINUITY.Jussayin.