Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Ture on April 22, 2010, 01:27:50 am

Title: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 22, 2010, 01:27:50 am
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess who is known throughout Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister asks the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet (this did not occur in Doomwar but is the catalyst for it). Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microweave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM, THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM... BUT DOOM HAS!!!

All this occurs in the first issue.

Where is the advanced technology Wakanda is legendary for? Why weren't the Dora Milaje cloaked? Where was Tchalla's armors? Why does Tchalla have runes painted on his flesh and not Medu? How can so many Wakandans be ignorant of magic and spirituality? Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda?

In issue #3 we start off with a six page recap whose pages could have been better utilized depicting the caves of Bast, (remember how long you stared at Jim Lees depiction of the batcave).

Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nanites but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set off an EMP. Wakanda needs Reed's supplies to have power restored? Why do they continue saying Wakanda has been conquered when they clearly have not.

OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.

So as I await the conclusion of Doomwar hoping for the redemption of Storm, Wakanda and especially Tchalla (the only Black Panther I'm concerned with) I am prepared for the worst.

Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie's fault "wink". Reggie has made some pretty bad impactful "mistakes" during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine appreciate.

First off, he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered. He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice, look superior to the X-Men, subdue the Sub Mariner, outclass Ironman and easily out fight Karnak. Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom and helped liberate a Skrull world.

HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR  AUDACIOUS MOVE WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD TO INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. :o

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.

The aforementioned are no doubt viewed as "mistakes" to be corrected and are inexcusable to BP haters. Why? Because they demonstrate a responsibility to one's artistry, one's people, the general public and to one's self.  As I turn to the first page of Reggie's latest work Flags of our Fathers I already see the "mistakes"... I mean, SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS to give depth and integrity to this deserving character.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on April 22, 2010, 03:05:44 am
I think you've made some good points about the lack of advanced tech. I didn't know or think about some of these counteractions that T'Challa or Shuri could've taken. I think you also have a point about the Desturi. This movement or at least more discontent should've been part of the Black Panther books long ago. It didn't make sense to me that this movement would come out of nowhere. Though I disagree with you in terms of Wakandans willingly letting Doom come in and take over. The Desturi was his cover, he knew he couldn't take Wakanda outright and he didn't want to. I do think it would've been better to develop at least the Desturi leader more and make it plain that he was using Doom like Doom was using him. It is debatable that Wakanda has been conquered, like they keep saying, because the royal family was deposed by a coup, that had foreign backing. I also don't mind T'Challa not being able to figure out the nanite infestation because he can't know everything. Sometimes we just don't know. We fail. It's human.

Are you saying that RH's run built up T'Challa so much that he should be more easily handling Doom in this mini? Turning T'Challa into a Gary Stu is one of my major criticisms of RH's run. I obviously want the guy to win, but I want him to work for it. All too often during the RH run that wasn't the case. So there was little or no suspense, and not many credible threats. I think RH and Maberry largely corrected that when Shuri took over, bringing in Morlun and now Doom.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: stanleyballard on April 22, 2010, 04:23:26 am
You have some valid points on The Desturi seemingly coming out of nowhere when this group could have been a sub plot for years during Mr. Hudlin's run......remember constantly mentioning the lack of developed sub plots way back in the last volume of Black Panther during the frog storyline which took him to another planet for a prolonged period.  Mr. Maberry had to come in and make the current story work to the best effect and to some large degree he has done that and the sales have doubled as a result. Is it perfect ....no....is it capturing the sales and critical acclaim....definitely yes.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 22, 2010, 07:22:13 am
Uh huh. Yeah... ::)

And while this happens the youngest modern African King, King Oyo, was recently crowned. Some Saharan states have formed an alliance to fight the presence of Al-Qaeda in northern Africa. Zimbabwe is still the pits after 30 years. (No surprise there.) And the countdown to the World Cup is getting shorter for South Africa. Research to combat malaria continues to progress.

Don't worry be happy.  Africa is not losing anything with this comic. :)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 22, 2010, 07:50:08 am
Ture 

<<Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nannies but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set
off an EMP. >>

I wondered about that too.  Or even Storm's power to create EMPs.  (In
fact, if EMPs can disable them, then BPs entire logic behind not being
able to tell Storm is invalid.)

<<Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda.>> 

You have to blame the artist for that, not the
writer.

 Emperorjones:
<<I think you've made some good points about the lack of advanced tech....I think you also have a point about the Desturi. This movement or at
least more discontent should've been part of the Black Panther books
long ago. It didn't make sense to me that this movement would come out of nowhere. >>

That's standard serial fiction fare.  A new writer will create things and create a back story that stretches years, even though the readers
have never encountered it.  It's just normal serial fiction writing.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 22, 2010, 07:50:42 am

<<First off he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered.>>

Which, technically never true in the first place, because in the Marvel
Universe, Doctor Doom did conquer the entire world for several months
and only lost control, because he found the day to day running of the world to be boring.  There were no threats to his power.  He decided that mind-control was not the way to rule the world;  this occurred in Emperor Doom.  Funny thing is, in what he told the PG, he was right.  His vision of how Doomworld would save the human race from self-destruction turned out to be true.  While he ruled, there was peace and harmony throughout the planet.  (Of course, saying that Doomworld is the only successful future ignores several
stories, in recent years, that showed otherwise.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on April 22, 2010, 10:40:18 am
Here's your mistake, Ture.  I'm not writing DOOMWAR.  I don't get the credit, I don't get the blame.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on April 22, 2010, 10:48:59 am

After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther". Though the writing maybe satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess whom is known through out Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan  calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister ask the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet. Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microwave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM,THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM BUT DOOM HAS!!!


OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.



HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.



You make some good points here about the Desturi but others?

Yes Wakanda has great technology but you have to remember that Dr. Doom is on a level with Dr. Reed Richards. In fact, Doom is higher then Reed because he also can use magic at near the same level of Dr. Strange.
In new Avengers Dr. Strange was terrified of the idea that Doom would be named the next great socere supreme. Not to mention, that his technology is probably on par with Dr. Richard's if you remember. Reed's technology and understanding of science surpass that of the Wakandan's.  So when you consider those two factors and that T'Challa is pushing science rather then magic in Wakanda then the fact that you mention doesn't become so outrageous that Doom would be able to master it first.

That's just the way the ball bounces in the Marvel Universe.

In general, I like the story. Dr. Doom is being a real credible villain (threat) in this story, something that the BP has been missing. Although that threw me for a loop when the Cat said he had a pure heart. But to me that made the story better. NOT WORST! but hey that's just me.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on April 22, 2010, 11:55:56 am
Here's your mistake, Ture.  I'm not writing DOOMWAR.  I don't get the credit, I don't get the blame.

Quote from: Ture
I'm AAAa blaming you, anyway!

Can't we all just get along  ::)

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on April 22, 2010, 01:23:38 pm
I’m glad Mr. Hudlin came along to say that. The whole blame Hudlin really invalidates what would be a post with some valid points.

But what I don’t get is why Black Panther fans are so insecure. Why does T’challa have to be written as second fiddle to be ok; there are some valid issues with Mr. Hudlin’s first  run on Black Panther. His first time writing comics, while at the same time being a CEO, and raising young children...among other things.  

Now I am not a Hudlin apologist. My first post on this site was a PM to Mr. Hudlin himself blasting him. But after reflection, the blaming is  way off.

You said;
Quote
Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie fault. Reggie has made some pretty bad mistakes during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine.


Here is why:

1)   Black Panther fans need to stop comparing everything to C. Priest legendary run. It was great and it is still considered cannon. While you didn’t say this, I’m saying it to get it out of the way.
2)   Priest himself said that he did not expect anyone to be able to follow up on any of his plot lines and that if he wrote the book again, he would write it differently. Why, because the same bashing we see with Mr. Hudlin, is the same bashing I saw with Mr. Priest.
3)   Besides Fantastic Four #52-53, Mr. Priest run of Black Panther, G. Johns trying to copy Mr. Priest on his Avengers run and Jason Aaron’s short arc on the Black Panther.  There has not been many people who have written T’challa better then Mr. Hudlin has... I mean as being a Hero that does not get his ass kicked all the time. 30’s years of treating T’challa like he was a joke, I take issue with folks talking about Hudlin’s run. There were issues, but that is not one of them. There is no way I will complain about Mr. Hudlin writing T’challa as he was supposed to be written.

No? I thought you made some valid points, but blaming Mr. Hudlin and this…

You said;
Quote
First off he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered.

I don’t get it. Why not…it does not make since for a nation with the rarest metal to not have been conquered, they have been around since 10,000 BC ...if someone conquered them they would not have this resource, like the rest of Africa. The Kirby Wakanda was also never conquered either…it was just hidden. But think about this…and why Mr. Hudlin foresight is better then most. Read the new Mini S.H.E.I.L.D, there is no way that Wakanda would have made since without Mr. Hudlin’s Wakanda. There would be no Black Panther.

Quote
He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice

No he did not. He has T’challa grand father, Azzari the Wise beat a young Steve Rogers. That is very logical and he had T’challa best Steve in a sparing match…nothing different then what other writers have done to T’challa with Steve besting him (both had injuries). God forbid T’challa being shown on par with Steve, even though Jack Kirby showed him that way.

Quote
look superior to the X-Men

You mean like this?
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1035203-vsbeastcut.jpg)

Quote
subdue the Sub Mariner

Really????
(http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8480/28no.jpg)

Quote
outclass Ironman

You mean like this?
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37124/1059339-vsironman.jpg)
Or the time during Mr. Priest run when he beat him with windex spray?

Quote
easily out fight Karnak.
Really???
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/oldschool.jpg)
You mean like this?
Quote
Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom

Why would this be a problem? Also Doom had T’challa by his throat.
Quote
and help liberate a Skrull world.

What, you mean like other heroes would do? Jason Aaron’s SI arc, routed the Skrulls in a battle where it was like 5 to 1, and it was critically acclaimed and made the NY times best sellers list.

Quote
HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.


I totally disagree. It was an error in the way it was executed. However, it was entertaining to others as well. In fact I have asked creators and editors myself…Tom Brevoot, Jason Aaron, Chris Yost, etc..etc…they all like the marriage.

I do agree that the habit and gear that T'challa had during his run with Priest should be standard. He should have that right now, and that habit looks better. Ignoring Priest run is a huge mistake (though Mr. Hudlin did not totally ignroe it...because you see some of the Priest Tech during his run).

As for Doomwar...I will wait until it's finished before I truly judge it. That's all Mr. Maberry.
Doomwar seems to be focused on Doom, but there are 3 issues to go...so maybe we will see T'challa and Storm do something for once.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 22, 2010, 01:34:46 pm
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong.  (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on April 22, 2010, 01:40:54 pm
I thought that also, but then I wasn't sure. LOL
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 22, 2010, 01:46:26 pm
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong.  (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)

That was what I was thinking to & I cosign Seven points...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on April 22, 2010, 02:24:27 pm
Now I'm really confused...   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: DJfunkyPuddle on April 22, 2010, 09:04:05 pm
I thought only a few of the Desturi actually knew about Doom, I kinda thought that was Doom's whole point.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 22, 2010, 09:21:33 pm
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.

















 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on April 22, 2010, 10:26:12 pm
Sorry for being dense and not getting the joke.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 22, 2010, 10:38:19 pm
Ahhhhh... A sigh of relief, you had me worried. I was hurt there for a minute. All is right again in Wakanda. Thanks Reg for re-reading my post. Now hopefully the others will do the same.
Title: Ture, I agree.
Post by: Daoud on April 22, 2010, 11:50:21 pm
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess who is known throughout Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister asks the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet (this did not occur in Doomwar but is the catalyst for it). Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microweave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM, THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM... BUT DOOM HAS!!!

All this occurs in the first issue.

Where is the advanced technology Wakanda is legendary for? Why weren't the Dora Milaje cloaked? Where was Tchalla's armors? Why does Tchalla have runes painted on his flesh and not Medu? How can so many Wakandans be ignorant of magic and spirituality? Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda?

In issue #3 we start off with a six page recap whose pages could have been better utilized depicting the caves of Bast, (remember how long you stared at Jim Lees depiction of the batcave).

Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nanites but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set off an EMP. Wakanda needs Reed's supplies to have power restored? Why do they continue saying Wakanda has been conquered when they clearly have not.

OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.

So as I await the conclusion of Doomwar hoping for the redemption of Storm, Wakanda and especially Tchalla (the only Black Panther I'm concerned with) I am prepared for the worst.

Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie's fault "wink". Reggie has made some pretty bad impactful "mistakes" during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine appreciate.

First off, he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered. He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice, look superior to the X-Men, subdue the Sub Mariner, outclass Ironman and easily out fight Karnak. Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom and helped liberate a Skrull world.

HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR  AUDACIOUS MOVE WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD TO INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. :o

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.

The aforementioned are no doubt viewed as "mistakes" to be corrected and are inexcusable to BP haters. Why? Because they demonstrate a responsibility to one's artistry, one's people, the general public and to one's self.  As I turn to the first page of Reggie's latest work Flags of our Fathers I already see the "mistakes"... I mean, SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS to give depth and integrity to this deserving character.

I'm just reading your edited post so I understand perfectly what you are saying.

I agree totally.

I had high hopes for this series but I'm getting the same passive/aggresive sense I got from Priest's run (which I pretty much hated the more I thought about it.)

I passed a copy of Doomwar 2 to my younger brother and he expressed immediate dislike of the line about Wakanda being conquered.

Truly it seems that Marvel is trying to write a comic that fixes the "mistakes" that you mentioned and appeal to more of the current comic buying audience.

The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read. 

It is no wonder American comics have such a small audience.  The type of stories told are so narrow as to be laughable.
You see this same problem with respect to girl comics also.  By attempting to make a product for its core audience the companies fail to attract the readers they say they want.

I want to read a comic about a Black Man who is King of his own country, Honourable, Righteuos, a bit funny, married to the best woman in the world ;) who isn't portrayed as weak herself and negotiating the world without losing his country!!!  I'm sorry that last part really ticks me off.

Portraying strength by killing alot of people.  His own people I might add.  Well that didn't stop him from getting his country destroyed!  That is the job of a Black Panther!  He failed at his role!  What kind of King is he?!! Oh, he's not a king now.  (sigh)

It's a bunch of bull.

All the things you mentioned Reggie doing were exceptional for Marvel and appreciated by me.

I came to this post via Jenn's reference on CBR and felt compelled to reply.

Well said Ture.


Excelsior!

Daoud
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on April 23, 2010, 07:36:15 am
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity. 


Ah, O.K.

I thought that was what you had meant. Glad to see I was not that confused after all (for once ;D).

You've got a point, Ture.

The Black Panther that Reg did that many of us got on board with, was a Black Nationalist power fantasy.

He was also a well rounded human being. Regal to his subjects light hearted and joking with his intimates. He loved and worshipped his noble and queenly wife and wasn't afraid to show it.

Mayberry is doing something else with the book.

He's doing 24 but with Super Heroes.

His Black Panther isn't well rounded. He's a schemer first and foremost(a noble and benevolent schemer, but a schemer all the same).He 's been pitted against another schemer, Marvel's star arch villain, a guy who probably has a bigger fanbase than the lead characters.

In the complex back and forth between two schemers out to mislead, depose, assassinate, punch, kick and stab each other into submission, any conversation or human interplay that doesn’t relate to said schemers trying to screw each other over has been done away with. All conversations are either mission briefings or the delivering of instructions to one set of allies or the other.

Mayberry been also been accused of Misogyny.

I don’t think that’s correct.

He certainly likes Shuri and the Doras well enough. I don’t think Mayberry hates Storm either. I think he just likes shooting and stabbing. A LOT. And the planning out of said shooting and stabbing too.

Since Storm isn’t a shooter or stabber she gets shuffled to the background so that MORE shooting and stabbing(and the planning out of same) can continue uninterrupted by her high powered non-shooting and stabbing hi-jinks. Notice that Deadpool (a shooter and stabber) is joining the cast. Also notice that Sue and Johnny Storm (non-shooters and stabbers) barely have any lines.

Now is all of this a BAD thing? Not if you like shooting and stabbing(or scheming). Or enjoy seeing Doctor Doom or other A-list villainy featured. Mayberry’s being defended because this kind of stuff always has an audience. After Civil War, there wasn’t an A-list bad guy to be found in Reg’s B.P. run(not a dis, just an observation). So there a lot of YAAAY DOOOM going on here too.

If you like a well rounded Black Panther who actually talks to his wife Storm (Doomwar 3 is the first issue where they have spoken face to face since his run began) this probably isn’t for you.

The current run is more about a guy writing to his strengths than it is a conspiracy to castrate the characters.
 


Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: bluezulu on April 23, 2010, 07:55:27 am
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 23, 2010, 08:47:06 am
<<The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read.  >>


I have said and often felt, that getting the BP that Reg created and making BP an A-lister are mutually exclusive goals.  A-Listers are the "safe", non-political, non-threatening, non-anything type.  A Listers are multi-cultural, inclusive, (socially) politically correct.   Reggie's vision of BP isn't for the masses, an A-list BP and Storm would be for the masses.  (That's why when Storm was at her height of popularity, she became the example of Multiculturalism--she isn't Black, she's all races.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on April 23, 2010, 08:57:06 am
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.


My bad. I saw that after the fact...which is why when KIP pointed it out I was like oh.

I agree that that his "bad mistakes" are only bad mistakes to the idiot fanboys...and that most of it is similar to other things that happend before...he just did it without making excuses for it.
















 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on April 23, 2010, 09:31:43 am
<<The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read.  >>


I have said and often felt, that getting the BP that Reg created and making BP an A-lister are mutually exclusive goals.  A-Listers are the "safe", non-political, non-threatening, non-anything type.  A Listers are multi-cultural, inclusive, (socially) politically correct.   Reggie's vision of BP isn't for the masses, an A-list BP and Storm would be for the masses.  (That's why when Storm was at her height of popularity, she became the example of Multiculturalism--she isn't Black, she's all races.)

Not necessarily.

A mass market Black Panther could be sucessful without being homogenized. Look at the first Blade movie for example.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 23, 2010, 09:47:50 am
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.   

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on April 23, 2010, 10:38:32 am
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.   

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 23, 2010, 01:38:29 pm
A referral from Jenn...life is good. Thank you Daoud. Precisely my point Vic, what Reg did was not only needed but warranted. I totally feel you on that Bluezulu and I find myself in agreement with you Kip. If Afrakan images and stylings were promoted through comics and animation utilizing the artistic and marketing sensibilities that come with it the results would be staggering. A example would be the Black Panther comic and cartoon, appreciate that Reg.  I'm glad we are back on the same page Seven. I see your point Vic. Kip, Superman and Spiderman have had consistent exposure in comics and cartoons for decades which lends to name and brand recognition, emotional connectedness, cross over into other mediums and a increases in popularity to the general public. The same could happen for BP. I concur Francisco.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Mastrmynd on April 23, 2010, 02:48:28 pm
well, we'll find out soon.
nevertheless, my boy Seven wrote a really good post.

great job brother!
i love how you supported your statements, toO!
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on April 23, 2010, 07:51:35 pm
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.

And how many times was it I mentioned the ways of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" and white writers writing stories designed primarily to entertain a predominantly white male audience? Arisen from oblivion, this is sinjection. This is what woke me from eternal hibernation; my CBR epitaph:

Brian Cronin
10-28-2009, 10:02 AM
sinjection was interesting in the sense that he often had fairly reasonable complaints, and I thought he often got reactions that did not fit his original positions due to the over-sensitivity when it comes to race.

That said, he would then go way past the original reasonable complaint and just act like a jerk.

-Brian

One CBR member thought it would be a good thing to re-post what he called "sinjection's greatest hits". Doing so would crash their forum as EVERYTHING I posted over there WAS a hit, which often hit them where it hurt them most. And so now bluezulu says, "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book." I was saying this same thing - among others - during my time @ the CBR. Cronin is a good person, a fair-minded fellow, who understood that it was often the over-sensitivity of many members of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" to racial issues in comicbooks that drove their idiotic kneejerk reactions which in turn caused them to suffer "sinjection correction".

I've no doubt that many white readers are onboard DOOMWAR because they perceive it as a Dr. Doom story, not a Black Panther story and thus far, T'Challa is getting his black behind bruised. So good to see the cream of the HEF crop representing at the CBR now, which is all I ever wanted. Since my resurrection, I've been "lurking" there and am very pleased with what I've seen. Jenn is there. Oh lordy  ;)

I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on April 24, 2010, 07:10:07 am
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.  

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.


I agree with this. Its comical, or should I say criminal, how badly Marvel has mishandled Blade after the movies gave them a golden opportunity with his character. Don't get me wrong, I like the Punisher and enjoyed both films, but neither was as good as the first two Blade movies, yet Punisher continues to get star treatment, while Blade has been treated half-heartedly at best, and that was when the movies were still coming out. The Guggenheim series just didn't cut it, though it started out with a bang. And Blade barely got a chance to shine in MI-13 before that got cancelled. Compare that to Punisher, with the great Ennis run, now Jason Aaron, and even the stupid "Frankencastle" arc from Remender. He's still getting a major push.

....About black writers writing black comic characters. I have mixed feelings about it. I think because of the difficulty many whites (and white writers) IMO have in seeing black people as fully human, 3-D beings, too many have trouble giving black characters their due. They can't, or don't want to identify with black people, perhaps on a subconscious level, so they can't really get the characters they are writing. So the resort to stereotypes or a 'white' idea of what a black person is or should be. The black character has to go through a white racial filter where maybe certain things are overemphasized with the character over others. That can result in too negative or too positive characterization, or characters that are ciphers or whose lives resolve around white characters. I think this is a less likely occurrence with black writers, but at the same time, some blacks have put out stereotypical stuff too.

I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea that black writers shouldn't write Batman, Spider-Man, or Superman, etc, even though very few have. So, I can't blanketly believe that white writers shouldn't write black characters, but I think they have to really work hard, or should work hard, at understanding these characters, their histories, and the ethnic/racial group they they come from and/or represent.

The realities of racism/historical and current in our society have created a situation where many blacks have to adapt to the majority white culture in order to survive whereas whites don't have to have much interaction, or can be more selective in how much interaction they have with blacks. That results in blacks having a greater understanding of whites than whites have of blacks, IMO, mainly because we have to. That translates into whites not always having a good grasp on black people/characters. And there is the tendency to de-racialize non-white characters to make them less threatening and more acceptable to white audiences.

Whereas with black writers I think it is easier for them to identify with and empathize with white characters because many of us have been taught to look up to or model ourselves after white people. Many of us have a Eurocentric mindset, or are acquainted with it so it's easier to write these characters.

I question whether Black Panther can be an A-List character, no matter if there is an attempt to de-racialize him. If the core white male fan base is reluctant to identify with and support black characters on a sustained basis, which I believe, I don't know if A-List status can be achieved. Particularly if the comic companies continue to tailor their product primarily to white males and don't continuously attempt to try to expand and tap into other markets. They might take some losses initially and some ventures might fail completely but I think you have to give a little, to get a little. And the comic companies need to continue or start seeking markets beyond their white male core group.

...I didn't quite understand what Ture was getting at before but he (?) bought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered. Not sure if I agree with all of it, but it made me think about things differently, which is a good thing.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on April 24, 2010, 08:04:16 pm
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.


Ture, your post is simply brilliant. While a member of the CBR, I ruffled more than a few feathers discussing what I defined as "white writer's choice" and "white reader's preference". Your strong observations go straight to the very heart of the concept I tried to convey back then.

During such exchanges, it was clear from the responses I received that the T'Challa/Storm/Wakanda portrayed in DOOMWAR was considered by those fans as being the more realistic, more entertaining. Hudlin's T'Challa was "arrogant" and "too perfect". Storm was a "broodmare" and little more than T'Challa's "doormat" or "stepping stone" to A-List status. Wakanda was racist, xenophobic and boring. Today, some of those fans are celebrating Doom's brilliance in how he has so completely "handed T'Challa his butt. They are making cases for Doom being a noble anti-hero and actually rooting for Doom to emerge the victor from this battle. Conversely, I've no doubt that if those same members were discussing Bishop and his battle against Cable and Hope, Bishop would be reviled as the villian.

Is the Doom of DOOMWAR the same Doom who battled Doctor Voodoo? I wonder how Doom's DOOMWAR fans might answer this question. I happen to think Maberry is writing a good story, a very entertaining story. I understand the frustration of Black Panther fans and especially those Storm fans with how the story is going and how those characters have been depicted. I do believe that through all that has happened, T'Challa has maintained a nobility that has been untouched by Doom's despicable onslaught. Shuri has emerged as a strong character in my opinion. Storm has not been written in character and that needs to be corrected asap.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on April 25, 2010, 08:58:25 am
Wecome back, Sinjection! ;D

Whassup!

@ Everybody: there's more than one kind of A-list.

Everybdy knows who Blade is now. They might not know there is a comic book about the character, but they know about Blade as a multimedia entity. To me that's actually a bigger deal than being a-list in the bizarro world of comic book fans.

Storm has her own ride at Great Adventure, girls and women dress up as her every holloween but she struggles to get speaking time in the several books she appears in. 

The world is about to be introduced to War Machine in Iron Man 2 and even if the character is as well recieved as I think he going to be (has Don Chedle EVER been bad in a movie?) I won't be holding my breath waiting to see him get more shine from Marvel outside of being(at best) Steve Roger's second in command in the Secret Avengers.

You can't make the 100,000 odd aging fanboys open thier minds. Just go around them I say.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 25, 2010, 12:33:06 pm
Thank you, Sinjection1. Though my first attempt may have been confusing and misleading due to my cumbersome approach, I think  the modifications I made help to clarify my position. Sinjection1 you and I are definitely in sync.

The reasons go beyond the typical black and white issues of race. Those arguments were constructed to fail and self destruct. The complexity lies in the contextualizing of Afrakan people's culture in fiction. The depth of this understanding is what distinguished Reggie's and Priest's Black Panther from many other writers' interpretations.

There are often comparisons made between Reggie's BP and Priest's BP,when in actuality they are more akin than dissimilar, flip sides of the same coin. Priest gave the Panther mystique, presence and formidability. Reg gave the Panther strength of family, a sense of community and historical context. Both gave the necessary cultural ties that helped to authenticate the character. 

If any differences need pointing out they would be in their approach to writing. Reg writes with the eloquence of a seasoned screen writer. For evidence of such compare Who is the Black Panther comic with Who is the Black Panther cartoon. The prose may appear a little light in the comic (leaning to the fact that I wanted to read more) but they are flawless in the animated feature. Priest writes like the veteran comic book writer he is. His strong points (dialogue, continuity, pacing) lend themselves to that medium.
 
In my opinion both Panthers have their strengths that compliment the character and should be viewed as a composite.

In fairness I would be remiss if I neglected to mention Don McGregor, who did attempt to apply the above mentioned concept. Others like Stan Lee may get some mention but I was focusing on ongoing series.

I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.

Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor."  Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

(http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg)

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!


Holla at ya boy Jenn.







Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Mastrmynd on April 26, 2010, 09:58:30 am
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.


I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.

What?!
Sinjection is back!!
Woohoo!!
Welcome back bruh!
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on April 26, 2010, 10:32:00 am
Vic!

As always, it's good to be back.

And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.

Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and confused...so completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet."  More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.

Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.

Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.

And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters.  Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on April 26, 2010, 12:22:09 pm

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!


 ;D YES!!!  Say it plain, Ture!   :D

Having seen my fair share (and then some), of the anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin's Black Panther posts - some of them from our own Yoda - I had no trouble discerning your fine post for exactly what it was. You're right, Ture. This is not simply and solely a black/white racial issue. "Those arguments were constructed to fail and self destruct". As many times as I have experienced this very thing, I've no doubt but that you are correct. On the other hand, there's bluezulu saying something I have posted myself more than once: "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book". Realistically, a black man writing a black book is not the panacea some of us might like to think. Still, bluezulu expresses a frustration I suspect most of us are able to relate to on some level.

For instance, in my view, too many white Marvel Comics fans having too little knowledge of the Black Panther and Wakanda will always dismiss the character as a perennial B-list product. What they know of Wakanda is that it's a xenophobic, racist nation. And yet, a white man - Horatio Walters a.k.a. Venomm - came to Wakanda as an invader, a lieutenant to Killmonger. After befriending Taku, Walters had a change of heart and to my knowledge, never left Wakanda but remained there evidently living there as a Wakandan citizen. I do remember seeing Venomm leading a column of Wakandan troops marching against the Jabari tribe during Priest's run. Priest, a black writer, chose to show Venomm, a white character, in what appeared to be a position of prominence and command over what many white fans might say were racist Wakandan troops.

Like bluezulu, I have "fallen away" from purchasing the traditionally strong Marvel Comics titles. The characters no longer seem to appeal to me as much as they once did. The culture of the books have changed as well and not always to my liking. In recent months, I'd been purchasing Doctor Voodoo which as we all know has been cancelled. I purchased Black Panther, now cancelled. I picked up the Cloak and Dagger one-shot; Cloak is my favorite character. Presently, I'm buying Flags Of Our Fathers and DOOMWAR. That's it. I mention this because I had no idea that the Wakandan X-Man Nezhno was bi-racial until recently.

Apparently, Kyle Yost, a white writer, chose to create (or to re-create), Nezhno as a bi-racial character. I remember a CBR discussion started by the member Magneto X. He was questioning why it was the Wakandan mutant Nezhno was rendered in one illustration having brown eyes, but in another identical illustration having blue eyes. As I recall, the issue of Nezhno's bi-racial heritage was not once mentioned in that exchange and I'm assuming Nezhno's racial heritage wasn't mentioned because at the time of that exchange, Nezhno may not yet have been bi-racial.

If that is the case and Nezhno's bi-racial heritage is a recent development I have to ponder the question why. I had been a proponent of Nezhno leaving the X-Men and returning with Storm to Wakanda. Through bits of information here and there, I've learned that Nezhno did in fact return to Wakanda and wanted very much to fit in. The story as written by Kyle Yost, had Nezhno being rejected by every Wakandan including his own mother. Nezhno saves the life of his brother - whom I'm assuming he didn't know he had until that very moment - and was recognized by his mother who rejected Nezhno on the spot. How could it be that this xenophobic, racist Wakandan woman could put aside those attitudes long enough to allow herself to become inseminated by a Russian, an "outworlder"? Further, how could this Wakandan woman be so cold and heartless to reject the son she carried to term and gave birth to? Why didn't she simply abort Nezhno if she hated him so? How could she love the Russian father, but hate her Russian/Wakandan son?

Because Kyle Yost wanted it that way. He wanted to write a story about how a willing Nezhno returned to Wakanda hoping to find acceptance and a home there, but instead was rejected even by his own mother. So Nezhno, having experienced bitter rejection and hostility from the Wakandans began to yearn for the X-Men and the life he shared with them. This is the sort of situational writing, the creation of circumstances, I am trying to call attention to when I mention white writer's choice/white reader's preference. The way I see it, the white writer chose to write Nezhno's story so that it could not possibly conclude any other way except that to be expected and possibly preferred by the predominant X-Fan readership, many of whom probably couldn't care less if Nezhno ever appeared in another X-book just so long as the character wasn't ever accepted in Wakanda as a Wakandan.

By the way, I'd always believed it was the female mutant who carried and passed on the mutant gene. In Nezhno's case, it appears he received his mutant gene from his Russian father. Is this so?








Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Catch22 on April 26, 2010, 12:46:17 pm
I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet.  The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad.  I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 26, 2010, 01:19:43 pm

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

(http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg)

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!


 ;D YES!!!  Say it plain, Ture!   :D

Having seen my fair share (and then some), of the anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin's Black Panther posts - some of them from our own Yoda - I had no trouble discerning your fine post for exactly what it was. You're right, Ture. This is not simply and solely a black/white racial issue. "Those arguments were constructed to fail and self destruct". As many times as I have experienced this very thing, I've no doubt but that you are correct. On the other hand, there's bluezulu saying something I have posted myself more than once: "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book". Realistically, a black man writing a black book is not the panacea some of us might like to think. Still, bluezulu expresses a frustration I suspect most of us are able to relate to on some level.

For instance, in my view, too many white Marvel Comics fans having too little knowledge of the Black Panther and Wakanda will always dismiss the character as a perennial B-list product. What they know of Wakanda is that it's a xenophobic, racist nation. And yet, a white man - Horatio Walters a.k.a. Venomm - came to Wakanda as an invader, a lieutenant to Killmonger. After befriending Taku, Walters had a change of heart and to my knowledge, never left Wakanda but remained there evidently living there as a Wakandan citizen. I do remember seeing Venomm leading a column of Wakandan troops marching against the Jabari tribe during Priest's run. Priest, a black writer, chose to show Venomm, a white character, in what appeared to be a position of prominence and command over what many white fans might say were racist Wakandan troops.

Like bluezulu, I have "fallen away" from purchasing the traditionally strong Marvel Comics titles. The characters no longer seem to appeal to me as much as they once did. The culture of the books have changed as well and not always to my liking. In recent months, I'd been purchasing Doctor Voodoo which as we all know has been cancelled. I purchased Black Panther, now cancelled. I picked up the Cloak and Dagger one-shot; Cloak is my favorite character. Presently, I'm buying Flags Of Our Fathers and DOOMWAR. That's it. I mention this because I had no idea that the Wakandan X-Man Nezhno was bi-racial until recently.

Apparently, Kyle Yost, a white writer, chose to create (or to re-create), Nezhno as a bi-racial character. I remember a CBR discussion started by the member Magneto X. He was questioning why it was the Wakandan mutant Nezhno was rendered in one illustration having brown eyes, but in another identical illustration having blue eyes. As I recall, the issue of Nezhno's bi-racial heritage was not once mentioned in that exchange and I'm assuming Nezhno's racial heritage wasn't mentioned because at the time of that exchange, Nezhno may not yet have been bi-racial.

If that is the case and Nezhno's bi-racial heritage is a recent development I have to ponder the question why. I had been a proponent of Nezhno leaving the X-Men and returning with Storm to Wakanda. Through bits of information here and there, I've learned that Nezhno did in fact return to Wakanda and wanted very much to fit in. The story as written by Kyle Yost, had Nezhno being rejected by every Wakandan including his own mother. Nezhno saves the life of his brother - whom I'm assuming he didn't know he had until that very moment - and was recognized by his mother who rejected Nezhno on the spot. How could it be that this xenophobic, racist Wakandan woman could put aside those attitudes long enough to allow herself to become inseminated by a Russian, an "outworlder"? Further, how could this Wakandan woman be so cold and heartless to reject the son she carried to term and gave birth to? Why didn't she simply abort Nezhno if she hated him so? How could she love the Russian father, but hate her Russian/Wakandan son?

Because Kyle Yost wanted it that way. He wanted to write a story about how a willing Nezhno returned to Wakanda hoping to find acceptance and a home there, but instead was rejected even by his own mother. So Nezhno, having experienced bitter rejection and hostility from the Wakandans began to yearn for the X-Men and the life he shared with them. This is the sort of situational writing, the creation of circumstances, I am trying to call attention to when I mention white writer's choice/white reader's preference. The way I see it, the white writer chose to write Nezhno's story so that it could not possibly conclude any other way except that to be expected and possibly preferred by the predominant X-Fan readership, many of whom probably couldn't care less if Nezhno ever appeared in another X-book just so long as the character wasn't ever accepted in Wakanda as a Wakandan.

By the way, I'd always believed it was the female mutant who carried and passed on the mutant gene. In Nezhno's case, it appears he received his mutant gene from his Russian father. Is this so?








No either the mother (Storm, Cable & Wolverine all are mutants because of there mothers) or father (Siryn, Namor, all 3 of Max/Magneto living kids, Beast are all mutants because of their father) & sometimes both can carried the x-gene (Guthries {Cannonball Husk & etc.}, Rasputins {Mikhail, Colossus &Magik} & Nightcrawler are mutants because of both parents) can carries the x-gene... Yes Nez got his x-gene from his dad..

Also I agree he could had atleast one Wakandan (other than the Royal Fam.) instead of showing everyone either dislike him or was just indifferent to him.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 26, 2010, 04:20:56 pm
I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet.  The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad.  I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t. 

Oh come on.  ::) He passed the guidelines of the test. Of course, neither Ra nor his son Horus would have allowed it. But that's not the point. Mortals shouldn't 2nd guess gods.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 26, 2010, 04:29:55 pm
The PG was just happy that Doom didn't just steal his powers like he stole the Beyonders. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on April 26, 2010, 04:35:57 pm
Arrogance.. So much arrogance.. I think it will come back later to bite Doom in the ass.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 26, 2010, 04:36:36 pm
Of course, the Beyonder has better mojo than the Panther God.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 26, 2010, 10:13:44 pm
Sinjection1 you demonstrate a clarity that make your posts a pleasure to read. In the same vein as your views on Nezhno I had similar feelings about the whole Kasper Cole situation. I remember someone saying they wanted a Vin Diesel type, a racially ambiguous character. His race however ambiguous was often referred to. Instead they could have focused on someone like Night Thrasher. He could have had a Wakandan bloodline and would have made an excellent protege. Since he was already trained this would have been an excellent opportunity to show the superior training of the worlds greatest warriors, the Wakandans.

I feel that both Priest and Reggie's BPs really set a precedence  that is often disconcerting and to some even offensive.  This demonstrates what you, Bluezulu, Emperor Jones and myself are in complete understanding of. Afrakan (insert Black if need be) writers that are politically, historically and culturally informed and unashamedly and unapologetically Afrakan need to write Afrakan characters.

I did not forget you Catch 22. You said in three sentences what took me several paragraphs to say. Every time I see the Panther god's face that I posted I hear your one word epithet..."bullsh*t."




Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Daoud on April 27, 2010, 02:40:02 am
@ Everybody: there's more than one kind of A-list.

Everybdy knows who Blade is now. They might not know there is a comic book about the character, but they know about Blade as a multimedia entity. To me that's actually a bigger deal than being a-list in the bizarro world of comic book fans.

Storm has her own ride at Great Adventure, girls and women dress up as her every holloween but she struggles to get speaking time in the several books she appears in. 

The world is about to be introduced to War Machine in Iron Man 2 and even if the character is as well recieved as I think he going to be (has Don Chedle EVER been bad in a movie?) I won't be holding my breath waiting to see him get more shine from Marvel outside of being(at best) Steve Roger's second in command in the Secret Avengers.

You can't make the 100,000 odd aging fanboys open thier minds. Just go around them I say.

Exactly Vic.

f*ck their "A" list!

I can only be but so concerned about other peoples negative opinions before I lose interest.

T'Challa is already "A" list as far as I'm concerned.  I trust that the business end of Marvel knows that they have to diversify their product.
Catering to the current dominant comic buyers is actually an impediment to the growth of the American comic industry.

Marvel Executives have repeatedly stated that Storm is their most franchised female character but compare the number of her appearances in comics to Wolverine's.  As a reader I just want her appearances to be good to me, but as a business, what is Marvel doing with the character?  Why can't they translate the characters overall popularity to the inbreed fringe that is comicdom? (OK that is rhetorical. ;D)'

I'm not interested in reading Black Panther interact wth the larger Marvel U if it entails denigrating and diminishing the character and his mythos.


Excelsior!

Daoud
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Daoud on April 27, 2010, 02:49:51 am
I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.

Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor."  Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!



Great story ideas Ture!

I will say I was really dissapointed at the portrayal of the Panther God after the way she/he been shown lately.

I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet.  The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad.  I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t. 


Exactly Catch22!


Excelsior!

Daoud
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Daoud on April 27, 2010, 03:04:04 am
Vic!

As always, it's good to be back.

And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.

Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and confused...so completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet."  More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.

Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.

Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.

And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters.  Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.

Sin, what up!

I actually haven't posted in a while here on the HEF.

I try to post only when something particularly good moves me.  Thus my praise for "Flags of Our Fathers" and The BP Animated series.

But I come back and you post.  When new people post on CBR and show an appreciation for a post of mine, I tell them to check out old threads I've commented in, espesially the closed ones, and hope they see your posts. :)

Good to see you!


Excelsior!

Daoud
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on April 27, 2010, 08:09:35 am
Quote
I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.

Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor."  Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."


Damn, Ture…  Some really good ideas replete with good commentary for T’Challa to throw out there for some of the more erudite readers in-the-know about Black Panther.

If some readers think this DOOMWAR Victor Von Doom is bad news, check out an alternate version of the man called DOOM in the classic Warlock series.  I clipped this page from my personal collection, Warlock #7 where this Doom is the complete opposite of what we already know about DOCTOR DOOM in a alternate world called counter-earth.  DOOM is a good guy and Reed Richards is somewhat the villain.
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/Battle-D/warlock_07.jpg)

I do agree with BlueZulu and the others that this DOOMWAR story  does  appear to be  told from a different voice than what we are accustomed to reading, especially if you’ve read dialogue, ideas and concepts from Priest, Hudlin and McDuffie writing Black Panther stories.  This series follows more in-line with exactly what it is…   a Doctor Doom story.  If you’ve ever read stuff like Super Villian Team-Up featuring Doctor Doom and Sub-Mariner or a bit of Warlock or even the recent, Books of DOOM series…  DOOMWAR follows that continuity of that character within the MARVEL universe.  I think Black Panther was the chosen target of interest because Wakanda (in the MARVEL universe) is a world power with a desirable resource but Wakanda is also about microcosms and the only time I am reminded of that concept is in DOOMWAR #2 tightly expressed by Shuri in this panel:
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w184/Battle-D/DW_02.jpg)


...and that's about it.  Doom's next target of opportunity should perhaps be The Inhumans Kingdom but I'm not sure it still exists.

EDITED FOR CLARITY
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 27, 2010, 10:05:25 am
The Inhumans rule the Kree Empire.  That might be a little much for Doom to take over in the same year he fails to beat Wakanda.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 27, 2010, 10:27:40 am
@ Everybody: there's more than one kind of A-list.

Everybdy knows who Blade is now. They might not know there is a comic book about the character, but they know about Blade as a multimedia entity. To me that's actually a bigger deal than being a-list in the bizarro world of comic book fans.

Storm has her own ride at Great Adventure, girls and women dress up as her every holloween but she struggles to get speaking time in the several books she appears in. 

The world is about to be introduced to War Machine in Iron Man 2 and even if the character is as well recieved as I think he going to be (has Don Chedle EVER been bad in a movie?) I won't be holding my breath waiting to see him get more shine from Marvel outside of being(at best) Steve Roger's second in command in the Secret Avengers.

You can't make the 100,000 odd aging fanboys open thier minds. Just go around them I say.


Exactly Vic.

f*ck their "A" list!

I can only be but so concerned about other peoples negative opinions before I lose interest.

T'Challa is already "A" list as far as I'm concerned.  I trust that the business end of Marvel knows that they have to diversify their product.
Catering to the current dominant comic buyers is actually an impediment to the growth of the American comic industry.

Marvel Executives have repeatedly stated that Storm is their most franchised female character but compare the number of her appearances in comics to Wolverine's.  As a reader I just want her appearances to be good to me, but as a business, what is Marvel doing with the character?  Why can't they translate the characters overall popularity to the inbreed fringe that is comicdom? (OK that is rhetorical. ;D)'

I'm not interested in reading Black Panther interact wth the larger Marvel U if it entails denigrating and diminishing the character and his mythos.


Excelsior!

Daoud



I don't think Mayberry is writing a great story as of yet. He is writing a great Doom however. A great story needs both a great antagonist and a great protagonist, and Black Panther simply isn't measuring up. Insult becomes added to injury when we witness the abysmal portrayal of Storm.

Great story telling would have given us a Tchalla who used sign language known only to he and Storm to communicate. Great story telling would have shown Tchalla ordering Wakandan sorcerers to capture the spirit of Dooms mother (or physically capture her if she is alive), with a smirking Tchalla remarking: "You took something of great value from me. I now return the favor."  Great story telling would show the pendulum swaying with each move and counter move. A masterpiece of a figurative chess match between two masters.

Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!



Great story ideas Ture!

I will say I was really dissapointed at the portrayal of the Panther God after the way she/he been shown lately.

I picked up DoomWar #3 and I still haven't finished it yet.  The whole scene with Doom and Bast just made me mad.  I know in all types of fiction, gods can be indifferent towards humanity...but a god that is the protector of and is worshipped by a single group just lets an outsider come in, humiliate his worshippers and steals their sacred property...bullsh1t. 


Exactly Catch22!


Excelsior!

Daoud


I agree...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BBeeryan on April 27, 2010, 01:08:21 pm
I think it totally makes sense for Bast to at least hear Victor out. Hell! There is no Wakanda if the world is destroyed.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: stanleyballard on April 27, 2010, 06:23:11 pm
Maberry is writing an intriguing version of The Black Panther...he inherited this story from Mr. Hudlin and did not start it...he has no choice in the fact that Dr. Doom clearly attacked T'Challa and brought him down as written by Hudlin...he also had to acquiesce to his editor who decided to make this a six issue run instead of five at the last minute and place more expository in this issue due again to editorial command.  He does not have that much control when one realizes that he has to one finish this story started by another writer, deal with falling sales figures (which changed just 3 issues ago, follow the command of editorial and then write a concise story when his main title seems to have been cancelled).  The characterization, pacing and dialogue in the first issue was top notch and deserved props - it seems like he had to rearrange some things after that because of the fact that it sold out....Storm was supposed to cut loose in this issue but if the bosses behind the scenes tell him to push that back then he really has no choice if he wants to keep his job.  Think that Maberry is in a tight position and is going to take heat no matter which way he goes...bottom line is that he has brought some strong writing back to the title and sales too. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on April 28, 2010, 02:47:55 am
^
I've liked Maberry's run for the most part but to be honest I think you are making some excuses for him. I agree with you that the first issue of Doomwar was excellent, though I haven't enjoyed the last two books as much.

It's true that he inherited the storyline and that he has to contend with the editorial board, like any other writer, but I'm assuming that Maberry has some creative control and leeway to take the characters down certain paths. He has chosen to write T'Challa, Shuri, Storm, Doom, etc. in certain ways.

For the most part I don't have a problem with what he has done, though I can see how some might. I think Ture and others have brought up some interesting things and it's made me reassess T'Challa's actions in DW and how they might be perceived. I know one thing that has irked me a little is that the Doomwar covers seem to have Doom always so dominant. They could show a test of wills at least.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 28, 2010, 03:58:03 am
Instead we get this....

([url]http://www.pyakule.com/ture/panthergodinawe.jpg[/url])

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!


So this is how the Egyptians felt after the god of Moses beat their gods.  ::)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 28, 2010, 04:24:06 am
But remember, the test was purity--a singular vision and purpose.  It wasn't a test of righteousness, morality, courage, honor or any of these other virtues.  Doom passed the test; he didn't beat the PG.  Who he beat was Panther.  Panther didn't think this about all the implications of a purity test.

As far as the Doomcentric covers?  Well this is Doomwar, not the War of Doom and The Panthers.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BBeeryan on April 28, 2010, 09:57:21 am
Maberry is writing an intriguing version of The Black Panther...he inherited this story from Mr. Hudlin and did not start it...he has no choice in the fact that Dr. Doom clearly attacked T'Challa and brought him down as written by Hudlin...he also had to acquiesce to his editor who decided to make this a six issue run instead of five at the last minute and place more expository in this issue due again to editorial command.  He does not have that much control when one realizes that he has to one finish this story started by another writer, deal with falling sales figures (which changed just 3 issues ago, follow the command of editorial and then write a concise story when his main title seems to have been cancelled).  The characterization, pacing and dialogue in the first issue was top notch and deserved props - it seems like he had to rearrange some things after that because of the fact that it sold out....Storm was supposed to cut loose in this issue but if the bosses behind the scenes tell him to push that back then he really has no choice if he wants to keep his job.  Think that Maberry is in a tight position and is going to take heat no matter which way he goes...bottom line is that he has brought some strong writing back to the title and sales too. 
I whole-heartedly agree.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: supreme illuminati on April 28, 2010, 02:07:48 pm
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.


I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.

What?!
Sinjection is back!!
Woohoo!!
Welcome back bruh!


BIIIG SIIIIIN!!! I was just thinking about you a few weeks back,and here TPG very kindly blesses us all with your keen perceptiveness,honorable forthrightness and deep intellect.I am very,very glad to see your posts yet again.I am,however,more than a little slow to post at CBR.Perhaps I will change my mind should I ever be persuaded to peruse the posts that populate that site,but I am not overly eager to do so unless there is some significantly compelling reason to do so,such as the clarion call of my brethren to arms echoes here at the HEF regarding an issue of the first importance being butchered by many of the inevitably misinformed haters that populate various sites like CBR and even HEF.

With that being said? I haven't purchased DW#3-4 yet because my LCS sold out and I had them on pull but someone failed to pull them for me.I'm aware that DW 4 hasn't hit the stands yet,but DW 3 has and I'm displeased that I missed it.

However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.We have seen this over and over again with CJP...our TCHALLA would be beset on all sides,beleaguered,seemingly a lamb led to the slaughter...and then TCHALLA starts opening all these trap doors all over the place.These kinds of things INCREASE THE COOL FACTOR and RESPECT that we have for the character in direct proportion to the direness of the peril that our heroes are placed in.DOOM is a truly horrific and terrifying threat whom I never thought got his full and just dues as a villain-anti-hero (same with the virtually immortal villain formerly named FU MANCHU, SHANG-CHI's father whom RH sensible renamed HAN like THE ENTER THE DRAGON villain,and several other bad guys/dire threats/overlooked heroes who have serious potential should they be taken with real seriousness like THE TASKMASTER or THE SILVER SAMURAI or THE DEVIANTS,MOONDRAGON--if she's still alive--THE GRANDMASTER,THE COLELCTOR,THE CHAMPION OF THE UNIVERSE,KARNAK and others).Even the scene with TPG isn't too too difficult for me to swallow--though it was A REAL SHOCKER,as I thought that DOOM might have manipulated TCHALLA'S MOTHER through magic or some other means into aiding him,as I didn't see her at the final panels of DW #2 and she most definitely has the requisite "purity" to pass the last lock--because there is canon for TPG being not exactly the most forgiving of deities.Recall DENYS COWAN'S PG? The same PG which nearly killed TCHALLA,shifted its support SANS WARNING to another man who hunted TCHALLA down and would have killed him were it not for TCHALLA'S ingenious use of his WAKANDAN tech which TCHALLA personally made and/or designed,including THE TECHNO JUNGLE? I could very well see TPG as using DOOM as a means to compel TPG's human Panthers to reach heretofore unreachable heights and even as a way to shock the Wakandans into a sense of unity of purpose and developement that they haven't reached yet.TPG may have decided that DOOM's plot will shock the Wakandans from their sense of complacency and total confidence in their superiority in all areas.

I have zero problems with RR having equipment that bests N'IIX's equipment,and I don't automatically equate N'IIX's equipment to be on par with TCHALLA's,either.
I would consider RR to have equipment on par with TCHALLA's and each to have the ability to out-tech the other in specific ways,catering to the strengths of each man's personality,so if REED was blithely saying that he is flat out superior to any and all TCHALLA's technological advances? I would have a problem with that.But IMHO Reed neither said nor intimated any such thing...and NEVER HAS.It's very,very telling that the "larger comic-book buying demographic" seems to have unerringly glommed onto this (mis)interpretation of TCHALLA's intellectual inferiority to both DOOM and REED and is seemingly incapable of considering another alternative being remotely palatable.

I don't have problems with The Desturi being unknown or unheard of until now either.We do,however,have canon reaching back to TCHALLA'S genesis for a group like THE DESTURI to exist,as the original tribes which comprise Wakanda seldom agree upon anything and political as well as armed conflict would result were it not for the strength,wisdom,charisma,et al of EACH AND EVERY RULING BLACK PANTHER.We were reminded of this as recently as CJP's run.Speaking of CJP's run,I would have MAJOR PROBLEMS with HUNTER being the source of THE DESTURI,as HUNTER is a loyalist to the Wakandan throne to the very core of his being...and his personal beef was with TCHALLA,not SHURI.SHURI is the BP now,so I can't quite make him out to be down with THE DESTURI.I would,however,see him being down with joining forces with TCHALLA to destory DOOM.That would be right in character,considering how outraged he was when TONY STARK took over WDG,and tried to murder STARK for his transgression.And speaking of CJP's run? We need to know what happened to his band of characters,especially KASPER COLE in the BP books and THE CREW.

I loved every bit of WAP (Worlds Apart),and I loved STORM just whoopalizin off on everybody.That right there was just the bizness to me.I know that this seems to be an aside,but I just had to put it in because I liked STORM's voice there,I liked that there are still sizeable segments of Wakanda that is xenophobic and that said xenophobia can reach to the highest levels of the the Wakandan government...but I think that the average Wakandan citizens would think that ousting the Queen of Wakanda is deserving of a swift and fierce beheading,and that's all there is to that.Period.However much they may disagree with some of TCHALLA's actions,they have always adored him for the most part because he has always been their fiercest staunchest most visible most dedicated and most importantly directly anointed by TPG defender.Raising a hand to TCHALLA is raising your hand to TPG's directly blessed Chosen One,and that right there is blasphemy of the worst kind deserving of instant death.On top of that, they have slightly less adulation for the Royal Family than they do for TCHALLA himself (and now SHURI,the TPG's newly anointed one),so transgressions like THE DESTURI have committed are literally their death sentences.The average Wakandan,to my knowledge,isn't especially fazed by the deaths of THE DESTURI at the hands of THE RF because that's what was to be expected by both groups.THE DESTURI would kill all of THE RF if they could and were about to do that very thing,and as warriors all WAKANDANS understand and accept that usurpers of the throne deserve to be destroyed with extreme prejudice by THE RF should they regain/retain power.

Daoud and Vic? With you all day regarding your comments of THE A-LIST.I think that RH himself made similar comments back in the day.And without doubt,the MU needs a Black hero written by a Black author.No doubt.CAGE and FALCON? That means YOU TOO.But Maberry is really writing his gluteus off in this book.I feel BBeeryan and stanleyballard here without any doubt at all.

Ture.Brah.LOVIN your posts.Absolutely LOVING them.I loved your idea of TCHALLA ordering Wakandan magicians to summon and hold prisoner the spirit of DOOM's mother...but I'm not sure if that would be enough to deter DOOM.In fact,I think it might have the opposite affect.I know that I would be far less than forgiving should anyone try such a thing against me,and I would probably have moved to prevent that from happening.After all,this is the same DOOM who reacted in DR. VOODOO'S miniseries to the invasion of NIGHTMARE by having an automatic ACTUALITY SHIELD erected over the whole of Latveria.I would think that a chess match between DOOM and TCHALLA wherein TCHALLA would counter each of DOOM's brilliant offensives and counterattacks with equally brilliant parries and ripostes would be a very good read,but not as full of OOOMPH (as it were) should DOOM has pulled off an unbroken,megabrilliantly planned and uber-ruthlessly executed string of successes like he already has...and then TCHALLA and SHURI come STORMing back (pun intended) and pull off incredible reversals at the last moment and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.I prefer the latter of the two stories.Would you?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on April 28, 2010, 07:19:53 pm
But remember, the test was purity--a singular vision and purpose.  It wasn't a test of righteousness, morality, courage, honor or any of these other virtues.  Doom passed the test; he didn't beat the PG.  Who he beat was Panther.  Panther didn't think this about all the implications of a purity test.

I have to agree with Kip here. The Panther God was ready to kill Doom which is what everybody thought would happen but in a weird way, Doom does have purity. The Panther God said he passed the test and let him proceeded even against his better judgment. And just because PG let him take it doesn't mean he won't help T'Challa get it back.

The story is not over yet.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 28, 2010, 07:37:18 pm
Also, beings like the Cat, tend to let humans be tested.  If T fails to stop Doom, then he and Wakanda deserves to suffer.  But they don't intefer, because it messes up the test.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 28, 2010, 08:56:08 pm
But remember, the test was purity--a singular vision and purpose.  It wasn't a test of righteousness, morality, courage, honor or any of these other virtues.  Doom passed the test; he didn't beat the PG.  Who he beat was Panther.  Panther didn't think this about all the implications of a purity test.

As far as the Doomcentric covers?  Well this is Doomwar, not the War of Doom and The Panthers.

Exactly. T'Challa had that test installed, not the Panther God. T'Challa mistook how much leverage Doom could work with that. Critics should stop bitching and moaning like Ramses and his fellow Egyptians.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 29, 2010, 12:24:43 am
Say it plain Daoud! Much appreciation to you, Battle and 4sake. Special shout out to Jenn holding court at the CBR.

I can see Bast hearing Doom out BBeeryan, but to concede to Doom all that vibranium was asinine. I decry the supposition that of the millions of pathways of the future that only one leads to a world without evil, without hurt, without want, even if Tchalla was the architect. So long as there is free will and diversity there will be disagreement. This breeds dissatisfaction which causes envy, distrust. Fear and hatred ensue. The consequence uprisings, revolts and war. All this in turn begins the process to find compassion, trust and faith. A quest for acceptance and fulfillment. Intuition guides the fortunate to the wellspring of peace. The cycle is perpetual. It is why we incarnate.

Stanleyballard I think this is the least intriguing version of BP to date. He is void of the efficacy of both Priest's and Reggie's BP. What he inherited from Reggie was a conundrum entitled Deadliest of the Species. Mayberry was tasked with fleshing out the hidden components, the motivations and determining the future of Tchalla, Storm, Shuri and all of Wakanda.

I understand that there is compromising and acquiescing to editors this hold true for Frank Miller, Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman. That is not so deleterious to writing a masterpiece as a lack of comprehension of the complexity of characters involved or the numerous ways they may be employed.

Hey Kip and Open palm, I think Tchalla's test of purity was a bit too vague. Pure what? Pure rationalization, pure malevolence, pure self aggrandizement, dare I say it…pure Doom.

Without a doubt Doom is Marvel's quitessential arch villain. Doom has set a precedence rivaled by no other single human being. The leaching of the Silver Surfer's power,  tricking Mephisto, escaping from Hell, defeating the Fantastic Four, besting Tony Stark. Doom has taken over an entire planet, he travels through time and Doom uses both science and magic. The man's resume is impressive. This is why when a hero defeats Doom it is something to behold. Wait a minute, Reg I think I made a mistake  ;). Leaching of the Surfer's power,  tricking Mephisto, escaping from Hell, defeating the Fantastic Four, besting Tony Stark...Tchalla has done these things too!!! Whoa slow down, take over a planet (Tchalla said he could), time travel he does that and Tchalla uses both science and magic. What does all this mean?

"I've always said the Afrakan is a superior physical specimen...Clearly the Wakandan is exceptional" --Victor Von Doom circa early 21st century.

Glad you're back on the boards Supreme one. The problem thus far is that Tchalla is lacking the demeanor that was ever present in the Priest era. I don't see enough evidence of all the traps. There has to be some "cool" present in order to increase it. Manipulating Tchalla mother would have been good. SI how can the Wakandans be complacent when they are under constant threat? Doomwar, Power, Deadliest of the Species, Worlds Apart, Secret Invasion.

Truth be told I've grown fatigued of the internal strife caused by dissidents like Killmonger, M'baku and now the Desturi. I'm more interested in a unified Wakanda under the leadership of Tchalla the Black Panther and the goddess Storm taking on all comers. That's what I dug about Reggie's World Tour. "Brilliant offensives and counterattacks with equally brilliant parries and ripostes" could have OOOMPH and significant impact. In terms of preference it would depend on the characterizations, the plot and subplots. I have yet to see the necessity (except maybe in sales) of the XMen, FF and though he hasn't appeared yet Deadpool. SI throwing the luv back at you.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 29, 2010, 12:39:47 am
Truth be told I've grown fatigued of the internal strife caused by dissidents like Killmonger, M'baku and now the Desturi. I'm more interested in a unified Wakanda under the leadership of Tchalla the Black Panther and the goddess Storm taking on all comers. That's what I dug about Reggie's World Tour. "Brilliant offensives and counterattacks with equally brilliant parries and ripostes" could have OOOMPH and significant impact. In terms of preference it would depend on the characterizations, the plot and subplots. I have yet to see the necessity (except maybe in sales) of the XMen, FF and though he hasn't appeared yet Deadpool. SI throwing the luv back at you.

I'm tired of Wakanda's internal rebellions too. It's not just Killmonger, and M'Baku, but T'Challa's other relatives who have coveted the throne. This time Doom was involved and it actually worked out well with the use of the nanites and double-dealing. I had hoped characters like Vibraxis would appear and defend the family. Alas many minor characters just come and go in this title.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 29, 2010, 01:42:27 am
<<Truth be told I've grown fatigued of the internal strife caused by dissidents like Killmonger, M'baku and now the Desturi. I'm more interested in a unified Wakanda under the leadership of Tchalla the Black Panther and the goddess Storm taking on all comers. That's what I dug about Reggie's World Tour.>>

On the other hand, not too long ago, people complained that united, peaceful Wakanda is boring.  They (me included) wanted internal strife.  Bc like you said, where there is free will, there is trouble.  (BTW, that is why Doomworld works--he takes away free will.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on April 29, 2010, 03:32:27 am
I like internal strife. I think it makes Wakanda feel more like a real country. Every country in the world has internal strife.  If you take that away you're cutting off a good source for new villains and storylines. I'm also not too into a perfect T'Challa. I want him to be able to put it down, I want him to win, but as I said before, I want him to work at it, I want him challenged. I want him pushed to the brink sometimes but somehow find a way to win. I find those stories more interesting.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 29, 2010, 07:18:45 am
But the problem with most Wakandan internal strife plots is that many of those characters just become footnotes. Does anybody remember the cousin who tried to take the throne and was mutated by raw Vibranium? I can't even remember his name.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on April 29, 2010, 08:06:36 am
That's true of any serial fiction.  I just read FF yesterday and they had Andromeda, an Atlantean, show up.  She was a Defender for a spell, but since that writer left, she was basically forgotten, till yesterday.

Other writers introduce characters and plot ideas, only to see them dropped and forgotten by the next.  (When is the next time you think we'll see Ben's almost-wife that Millar introduced?)  And since BP hasn't had an uninterupted run for 30 years, the dropped and forgotten is even worse.

But this is normal for serial fiction with multiple writers. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 29, 2010, 08:55:23 am
But the problem with most Wakandan internal strife plots is that many of those characters just become footnotes. Does anybody remember the cousin who tried to take the throne and was mutated by raw Vibranium? I can't even remember his name.


Do you mean T'Challa brother Jakara from King Kirby run?

http://www.comicvine.com/jakara/29-34666/
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Wakandan561 on April 29, 2010, 11:34:27 am
Thats one of the things that gets most annoying with BP, Writers come in and they introuduce New Chracters, and just say the hell with the established Chracters, and the other events that took place.Like  the Hatut Zeraze, who I could have sworn were exiled from Wakanda way before T'challas marriage to Storm. Or N'gassi who comes back in the Storm Mini, and has yet to appear in Maberrry's run at all. On top of that, T'challa had a lot of other villians, with the right writer could easily be revamped and made twice as cool. Like Nakia the ex. Dora Miljae who teamed up with killmonger, or The White Wolf who had LOADS of potential I would still like to see Hatut Zeraze vs. Midnight Angels. Not to mention Nehzno, The Wakandan that should have been fighting to rescue storm in place of freaking Collossus.   You don't see a  new writer of Spider-man come in just forget about curt connors, or J.Jameson, or what happened in the previous issues. SUre they create other villians, but they don't completly forget about the ones that are already established. They add to the story instead of revamping it.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 29, 2010, 11:37:42 am
People complained about Superman being too powerful. They were right when he was confronting villians like the Toyman. Wakanda wouldn't be boring if the writer took the time to delve into the intricacies of this unique culture. That of course would require imagination and the will to create. The writer would have to comprehend the existing flaws in the real world, create ways and means to solve them and invent new challenges for a society that has no precedent in the real world.

Internal strife works best if the motivating factors are congruent with the dissension. This is why continuity is so important. The reader achieves the necessary insight into the causality of events, the factors that shape the characters. Characters need to be nurtured, given circumstances that mature them. Insightful writers see a way into a character essence. They evolve the character. Frank Miller did it with Daredevil and Batman, Alan Moore did it with Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman with Sandman. Priest and Reg did it with the Black Panther.

If any characters needed to become footnotes it should have been Penguin and Riddler. You remember the hard times Batman had with Penguin using a trick umbrella. The writers re-invented these two over the many decades making them respectable. I site Batman the Animated series for further proof. At the risk of shameless self promotion see my thread "Epitomizing the Black Panther" for some of my ideas on BP.

To Mayberry's credit he is doing a decent Shuri, unfortunately it is Tchalla and Storm who have become the footnotes.

I neglected to mention Scott Eaton's art work is excellent.




Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on April 29, 2010, 11:41:35 am
Thats one of the things that gets most annoying with BP, Writers come in and they introuduce New Chracters, and just say the hell with the established Chracters, and the other events that took place.Like  the Hatut Zeraze, who I could have sworn were exiled from Wakanda way before T'challas marriage to Storm. Or N'gassi who comes back in the Storm Mini, and has yet to appear in Maberrry's run at all. On top of that, T'challa had a lot of other villians, with the right writer could easily be revamped and made twice as cool. Like Nakia the ex. Dora Miljae who teamed up with killmonger, or The White Wolf who had LOADS of potential I would still like to see Hatut Zeraze vs. Midnight Angels. Not to mention Nehzno, The Wakandan that should have been fighting to rescue storm in place of freaking Collossus.   You don't see a  new writer of Spider-man come in just forget about curt connors, or J.Jameson, or what happened in the previous issues. SUre they create other villians, but they don't completly forget about the ones that are already established. They add to the story instead of revamping it.

Co sign, you beat to the point.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on April 29, 2010, 06:40:23 pm

Do you mean T'Challa brother Jakara from King Kirby run?

[url]http://www.comicvine.com/jakara/29-34666/[/url]


Yeah, old Jaki. Another footnote in T'Challa's large, forgettable family.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 30, 2010, 10:47:48 am
Thats one of the things that gets most annoying with BP, Writers come in and they introuduce New Chracters, and just say the hell with the established Chracters, and the other events that took place.Like  the Hatut Zeraze, who I could have sworn were exiled from Wakanda way before T'challas marriage to Storm. Or N'gassi who comes back in the Storm Mini, and has yet to appear in Maberrry's run at all. On top of that, T'challa had a lot of other villians, with the right writer could easily be revamped and made twice as cool. Like Nakia the ex. Dora Miljae who teamed up with killmonger, or The White Wolf who had LOADS of potential I would still like to see Hatut Zeraze vs. Midnight Angels. Not to mention Nehzno, The Wakandan that should have been fighting to rescue storm in place of freaking Collossus.   You don't see a  new writer of Spider-man come in just forget about curt connors, or J.Jameson, or what happened in the previous issues. SUre they create other villians, but they don't completly forget about the ones that are already established. They add to the story instead of revamping it.

Honestly that type of thing happen all the time in all comic not just BP, but it the kind of thing the does make less sense story wise in BP because of who his supporting cast is.. I like that N'Gassi had a big role in worlds apart because he was kind in the background in RH run (with was find with me since he should be pushing 80 by now), but what I didn't like was he drawn like he hadn't age since JK run while in RH run he looks older (which made sense)..

As much I like Worlds Apart there was were a few plot holes/thing that don't make sense..

The biggest ones being where the hell were W'Kabi, S'yan, Shuri, Ramonda & Zuri, when did N'Gassi become the Regent/T'Challa/2nd again when that was W'kabi role with Syan or Shuri next in line, how the Shdow King get in T'Challa mind when he being shown in the past that he know could read his mind/etc , the Doras becoming Nakia Jrs from out of no where & where the hell the Hatut Zeraze come from ...

But that all goes back to what I said while back what writes write to there fanbases & they should just do that..

IMO he was writing to Storm fanbase 1st, X-Men fanbase 2nd, SK fanbase & BP & the Big W fanbases last..
So that why the that story is full of holes imo.. He still wrote a nice story, I still like it, but it could  have made & alot more sense ALOT more sense..

IMO he like T & O relationship & he can write a petty good T'Challa given the chance, but in that story (& just like the Divided We Stand Nez ) he was given his Core fanbase what they wanted/hope for & thought of Wakanda.. Also he really does write Wakanda well at all imo.. 

 T & O fighting = SK equal being in the story & taking over T even throw it was shown a some what full/high power Cable couldn't enter his mind.
 
All of the Wakandains (other than Nez shown in the story hating O)/Wakanda hating O= so that equal NO W'Kabi, S'yan, Shuri, Ramonda & or any other Wakandains that like O because that would/could have show that alot of ppl love/like her & that all Wakandan don't think a like..  But his core fan base already assume that everyone hated her. So why nt give they what they want because weather it true or not reguardless to his core fan base.  

Doras turning into Nakia Jrs.= his core fan base want T'Challa to cheat on O but Yost like T & O togther so the best he give them is the Doras wanting T'Challa & hating Storm when that hadn't been shown before

Hatut Zeraze back in the big W = well his core fan base think T'Challa(mind control or not) would un-baned a wet work team to take down or kill his out of control wife because most of them think he's an a-hole to say the least.

That petty much what make sense imo but if we want no prize it we just have to go with every one who like Storm other than T'Challa & Nez in the Big W was on vacation, so T'Challa lefted man who pushing 80 (not to say he not quantified but he better quantified when he man pushing 70 & now there are like 2-3 ppl who are more quantified.. maybe that why he drawn younger in the story also.).. a mind control T'Challa then off panel un-baned the HZ & by the time the story ended he re-baned them & that the Dora in the story were clones of Nakia or something or they were mind controlled also..    I'm not sure where/how T'Challa got take over by SK maybe it was while he & the rest of the supporting cast were on vacation..  

I still like the story, but could have been better & made alot more sense, but the same could be said for alot other BP arcs  & other marvel comics imo...


 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on April 30, 2010, 11:12:22 am
Vic!

As always, it's good to be back.

And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.

Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and confused...so completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet."  More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.

Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.

Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.

And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters.  Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.

Sin, what up!

I actually haven't posted in a while here on the HEF.

I try to post only when something particularly good moves me.  Thus my praise for "Flags of Our Fathers" and The BP Animated series.

But I come back and you post.  When new people post on CBR and show an appreciation for a post of mine, I tell them to check out old threads I've commented in, espesially the closed ones, and hope they see your posts. :)

Good to see you!


Excelsior!

Daoud

An I read alot of those posts (both yours & Sin) they schooled me alot of things (like double standards) when come to some comic fans & how they think/feel about alot of black characters & etc.. So to that I say thanks to both of you for the knowledge...  8)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on April 30, 2010, 12:04:11 pm
Yeah...Sin and your post was on point...you guys should come back... ;D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 01, 2010, 10:50:06 pm
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.

Now sinjection's systems are fully operational; locked and loaded. It's very good to see you both, both of you keeping the faith not only with our T'Challa and our Ororo but in the comicbook entertainment medium overall. The thorny issues crop up now and again regarding the characterization of not only the principals of the BLACK PANTHER (T'Challa and Ororo) but indeed, with most if not all black characters/characters of color in the industry and what Vic so fittingly dubbed "the bizarro world of comicbook fans." It's through your contributions (solid, factual information and opinions shared with intelligence and good humor) that we HEF members are all reconnected to the true intent of comicbooks...escapist entertainment.

Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.

To briefly address in this post the many fine points you made in your comments regarding DW supreme, I'll say that I've been both entertained and tortured by this story. I'll expound in the next post. Seven and 4Sake, you honor me with your comments. I can only hope that what I tried to convey about the often neglectful and/or shoddy way black characters are regarded both by creators and consumers is clear enough. I do ramble on and on. Be sure to read comments posted by Daoud and Magneto X if you can. There might even be a few surviving comments posted by Yaw to be found. Right now, Jenn, Vic, 4Sake, Umbra, RolandJP, Shadey are putting on a masterful display. Their posts are carrying on what I tried to do and then some.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 02, 2010, 08:34:36 am
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

I would expect many denizens of the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - especially those who have an open hostility for the Black Panther and Wakanda - to root for Doom. That Maberry has written a T'Challa (a character we all know to be a master strategist and brilliant warrior possessed of genius-level intellect) to be caught so completely off guard...that Maberry has written a Storm so powerless that at one point, she seemed to be cowering before Doom cradling the Queen Mother of Wakanda in a protective embrace...that Maberry has written a proud warrior king - who didn't need the Avenger's help to knock the shiznit out of Mephisto and rip the heart from his chest - running to the X-Men of all people for help... these developments were entirely unexpected and as evidenced, largely unappreciated by many Storm/T'Challa/Wakanda fans. As Ture so eloquently put it, this hasn't been a pitched battle between equals but something so much to the contrary it almost defies description. This is Wakanda, a highly advanced warrior nation that had remained unconquered for over a 1000 years. To see Doom so easily accomplish what even the Skrulls could not all the while showing utter contempt for T'Challa, Storm and the Wakandans - some of those Wakandans being traitorous fools who addressed this "outworlder" as "my lord" - is very, very hard to stomach. Maberry is giving every Wakanda-hating fanboy/girl exactly what they want. Doom has become the champion of this story.

I'm with you supreme, as I usually am. However, this stunning victory I expect Shuri and her allies to enjoy over Doom at the climax/conclusion of this story needs to be such that it has significant, long-lasting effect that will reverberate through the whole of the MU. Doom surely won't lose his life, but as a Panther/Storm/Wakanda fan I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 02, 2010, 11:24:40 am
<<I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast. >>

Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom.  And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse.  And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.

Here's the thing;  this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 02, 2010, 01:37:58 pm
Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom.  And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse.  And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.

Here's the thing;  this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.

Doom once attempted to skip out on a debt he owed Luke Cage for services rendered; Cage - acting as his own collection agency - broke into FF headquarters, procured intercontinental transportation, traveled to Latveria to beard the "great and mighty" Doom in his own den. Cage found Doom arrogant as usual and recalitrant as well. Indignant, Cage set upon Doom whereupon he proceeded to pummel the miscreant in the chest region. Doom's vaunted armor cracked, actually gave way under Cage's pounding. The damage to Doom's armor left the villain stunned and defenseless and thus, vulnerable to an attack by a third party having a grievance to settle with Doom. Cage defeated this new player, saving Doom's bacon. Afterward, Doom actually tried to secure the services of Cage as his bodyguard; Cage declined. Naturally, those "Doombutts" in the larger comicbook-reading demographic were nettled and some went so far as to suggest the Doom cage confronted wasn't actually Doom at all, but a Doombot instead. To my knowledge, the story of Doom's beatdown at the hands of Cage in his own Latverian crib has not been retconned. Doom's humiliation at the fists of Luke Cage has stood as canon for years. Of course, this story has been largely ignored by the larger comicbook-reading demographic.

Traveling back to the U.S. after tracking a drug cartel to France, an exhausted Cloak paused on a Latverian mountain; his passengers (Dagger and her companion Bill Clayton) emerged from the folds of Cloak's Cape Of Darkness. Doom happened to be working on a diabolical weapon - using intense light as its power source - at the exact moment Dagger stepped out of the Dark Dimension. Attracted to and fascinated by this light, Dagger persuaded a wary Cloak to investigate. As written, the Cloak character (always eager to please Dagger  ::)) relented and the trio of travlers found themselves the guests of Doom. Soon, they discovered how Doom planned to use the project he'd been working on and decided to stop him. Ultimately, it was the young Cloak who confronted Doom in the castle chamber housing this weapon of mass destruction, and who bravely enveloped Doom in his great cape knowing Doom would unleash his armor's weapons to gain freedom from the Dark Dimension. As Doom prepared to do just that, Cloak pivoted and opened his cape at the exact moment Doom opened fire. Instead of finding a target in the Dark Dimension however, Doom's weapons destroyed his nearly-completed weapon. Cloak had single-handedly defeated Dr. Doom. Of course, the larger comicbook-reading demographic dismissed this story as "having never happened" or that Cloak likely defeated a Doombot, not the real deal.

Recently, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo went toe to toe. I would guess we all know how that worked out for Doom.

You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? Granted, the title of this tale is DOOMWAR. Daredevil never confronted the Kingpin in a series called "KINGPINWAR". Daredevil was never set up as the "maybe-antagonist" in his battles with the Kingpin as the Panther, Storm and Shuri have been in their battle against Doom - the only successful invader and conqueror of Wakanda. As far as the larger comicbook-reading demographic was concerned, the battle lines were clearly defined when it was Kingpin vs DD. In the case of DW however, more than a few members of that demographic see Doom as a noble figure and relish the fact that T'Challa and Wakanda are finally "getting what they deserve". It's not enough that yet another Black Panther title has been cancelled, they want T'Challa eradicated. As you alluded to and once again Kip, your observation buttresses what I've been saying about "writers choice/reader's preference". The "next Doom writer" can always satisfy the "reader's preference" in this regard.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 02, 2010, 03:02:11 pm
<<You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? >>

Yeah; when Kingpin found out who DD really was--no holds bar dismembering of his life
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 02, 2010, 03:30:27 pm
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.

Now sinjection's systems are fully operational; locked and loaded. It's very good to see you both, both of you keeping the faith not only with our T'Challa and our Ororo but in the comicbook entertainment medium overall. The thorny issues crop up now and again regarding the characterization of not only the principals of the BLACK PANTHER (T'Challa and Ororo) but indeed, with most if not all black characters/characters of color in the industry and what Vic so fittingly dubbed "the bizarro world of comicbook fans." It's through your contributions (solid, factual information and opinions shared with intelligence and good humor) that we HEF members are all reconnected to the true intent of comicbooks...escapist entertainment.

Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.

To briefly address in this post the many fine points you made in your comments regarding DW supreme, I'll say that I've been both entertained and tortured by this story. I'll expound in the next post. Seven and 4Sake, you honor me with your comments. I can only hope that what I tried to convey about the often neglectful and/or shoddy way black characters are regarded both by creators and consumers is clear enough. I do ramble on and on. Be sure to read comments posted by Daoud and Magneto X if you can. There might even be a few surviving comments posted by Yaw to be found. Right now, Jenn, Vic, 4Sake, Umbra, RolandJP, Shadey are putting on a masterful display. Their posts are carrying on what I tried to do and then some.

And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....

However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

I would expect many denizens of the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - especially those who have an open hostility for the Black Panther and Wakanda - to root for Doom. That Maberry has written a T'Challa (a character we all know to be a master strategist and brilliant warrior possessed of genius-level intellect) to be caught so completely off guard...that Maberry has written a Storm so powerless that at one point, she seemed to be cowering before Doom cradling the Queen Mother of Wakanda in a protective embrace...that Maberry has written a proud warrior king - who didn't need the Avenger's help to knock the shiznit out of Mephisto and rip the heart from his chest - running to the X-Men of all people for help... these developments were entirely unexpected and as evidenced, largely unappreciated by many Storm/T'Challa/Wakanda fans. As Ture so eloquently put it, this hasn't been a pitched battle between equals but something so much to the contrary it almost defies description. This is Wakanda, a highly advanced warrior nation that had remained unconquered for over a 1000 years. To see Doom so easily accomplish what even the Skrulls could not all the while showing utter contempt for T'Challa, Storm and the Wakandans - some of those Wakandans being traitorous fools who addressed this "outworlder" as "my lord" - is very, very hard to stomach. Maberry is giving every Wakanda-hating fanboy/girl exactly what they want. Doom has become the champion of this story.

I'm with you supreme, as I usually am. However, this stunning victory I expect Shuri and her allies to enjoy over Doom at the climax/conclusion of this story needs to be such that it has significant, long-lasting effect that will reverberate through the whole of the MU. Doom surely won't lose his life, but as a Panther/Storm/Wakanda fan I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.

Yeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending. But I really disappointed with #3..  in #1 I didn't how T'Challa came off in the seen.. If it was more like he called from his video phone it his plane/jet & said with the help of Doom a group called the The Desturi holding Storm & My loyalists & myself are in rout to go take our home back & etc.. Now if any of you X-Men would like to assist let me kno & we'll come pick up & etc.. Also as person who reads the X-Men have a prob. with only 3 of her friends came  because majority of X-Men on the island hate living on it & would gladly leave it for even an hour even if meant going to fight a war...

Also a few things just came as unnecessary to me like S'yan getting shot & him may or may not being dead because killing/making it look like he may die (again) & killing T'Challa & Shuri main/current father-figure when there father T'Chaka is dead & when T'Challa bio. mother is dead.. It come of as unnecessary & annoying.. It like how many parents do these ppl need to lose.. It doesn't better the story or there character development.. I felt the same way about Zuri death.. If you just need to bring a supporting cast member or royal out of limbo just to be kill then just used one : that a who death still can some effect the the main character/s & who story petty much run it course. Like Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru, Omoro & etc..

I'd didn't have a prob. with W'Kabi or M'Baku deaths because the both came off as a means to a ends.. W'Kabi had to die or either early retirement for Shuri to became both the T'Challa #2/#3 &to be the main Regent of the big W..

M'Baku was a black male in a Gorilla/Ape outfit.. yeah not the most well thought off concept.. Plus his Death open of a few possible plots such as Ce'Athauna/QDJ coming back, leading the Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult & geting powers. She bringing lasting peace to Wakanda or atleast to the Panther tribe & to Jabari tribe.. Also you could build up a rivalry & friendship between her & Shuri similar to that to BP/Iron Man or better a Gaara/Naruto like friendship & rivalry..

Which leads me to my next point.. Another prob. I have with a story like DoomWar & or BP SI is that taking over/ attacking Panther Cult doesn't it = taking over Wakanda because there are 17 other tribes/Cults in Wakanda.. Taking over 1 tribe even with it being the best/strongest doesn't mean taking the whole nation..

So nice nod to what the White Gorilla Cult, N'Jadaka tribe, Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult, mountain tribe & etc are doing when ppl attack Panther Cult would be nice.. (just a small panel of them killing/fighting some skrulls or Desturi when they show up at there house saying we here to take over)...

My feeling about the Bast/Doom talking have already been covered by others..

Also so far I'm disappointed with the lack of Namor (but more than likely that not JM fault), the lack of Ka-Zar (& Shanna) because they have an alliance with T & O saying if you attack one you attack the other..

Also I was disappointed the way the loyalist vs non -loyalist to the house of Bashenga/T´Chaka/T'Challa battle ended. It seemed kind of rushed.. I wish something cool happen like T'Challa,, Ororo, Shuri, S'yan & Queen Mom were riding on top  of a Prowler or in a N'Yami class battle cruiser given both (with T & O on prowler & S, S & QM in the cruiser) with T'Challa Ororo & Shuri give a speech to sway the ppl to stop the fighting and saying something to the effect of there will be changes here & etc but 1st we must take action against Doom.. long live Wakanda 

<<I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast. >>

Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom.  And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse.  And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.

Here's the thing;  this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.

Yeah like Sin said their no prob. with the villains winning the early rounds it all goes how they are winning.. And few things as it currently stands a few things either came off as unnecessary (Emp all of Wakanda, Syan maybe being dead & etc.) or not making sense (Bast agreeing to Doom greater good idea when it past charcherzation has petty much been that she/he could careless if the rest for the planet blows up as long as Wakanda is doing great/ok.)

 Also this is an EVENT it just another story arc.. marvel petty much top (Joe Q,  Tom B & Axel Alonso the executive editor  & the vice executive editor aka the top/main/head editors at marvel ) to bottom (C.B. Cebuki ppl on his level) have promise/said that this event will have major  effects not only BP Storm & BP characters not only Doom But THE WHOLE MARVEL U and that it a big year for BP... 

He petty much know Doom not going to die just like he know neither are T'Challa & Storm just like he know every time BP stops it has always came back (also Iron Man & Cap Am have both had same amount of relaunch as BP).. The book may stop for 6-8/10-12 months but it will be back ... so it shouldn't be shock ppl we been here before...

So just like every other EVENT the villains has to lose big so yes Doom to lose Latveria/Doomstadt (again) he also needs to lose an eye or any arm or legs or to arms are all the above & to know it is waht happen when you piss off/war with T'Challa & W..

 Just like the Siege Norman O is losing his power/kingdom, the heroes aren't saying well goood try Norman u can go who now.. (Norman O is more than likely not going because it be hinted he to be used in Spider Man later), Loki & Sentry/Void may die thought..  So that means Walter Declun/The Broker, Mrs. Tickle got to go...  they either need to die or get life in one of the Big W jails..

In the 2nd coming Bastion may died (it to early to tell), but I can tell you right now that most if not all of his anti -mutant generals (Stephen Lang, Bolivar Trask, William Stryker, Graydon Creed, Cameron Hodge & Donald Pierce) will one already has Cameron Hodge... the X-Men aren't saying going say nice try trying to kill us (killing some of us).. we see next week..  So there no way a super genius warrior king like T'Challa should either nor should Storm who ripped of hearts for less & nor should Shuri..



   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 02, 2010, 03:33:37 pm
Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom.  And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse.  And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.

Here's the thing;  this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.

Doom once attempted to skip out on a debt he owed Luke Cage for services rendered; Cage - acting as his own collection agency - broke into FF headquarters, procured intercontinental transportation, traveled to Latveria to beard the "great and mighty" Doom in his own den. Cage found Doom arrogant as usual and recalitrant as well. Indignant, Cage set upon Doom whereupon he proceeded to pummel the miscreant in the chest region. Doom's vaunted armor cracked, actually gave way under Cage's pounding. The damage to Doom's armor left the villain stunned and defenseless and thus, vulnerable to an attack by a third party having a grievance to settle with Doom. Cage defeated this new player, saving Doom's bacon. Afterward, Doom actually tried to secure the services of Cage as his bodyguard; Cage declined. Naturally, those "Doombutts" in the larger comicbook-reading demographic were nettled and some went so far as to suggest the Doom cage confronted wasn't actually Doom at all, but a Doombot instead. To my knowledge, the story of Doom's beatdown at the hands of Cage in his own Latverian crib has not been retconned. Doom's humiliation at the fists of Luke Cage has stood as canon for years. Of course, this story has been largely ignored by the larger comicbook-reading demographic.

Traveling back to the U.S. after tracking a drug cartel to France, an exhausted Cloak paused on a Latverian mountain; his passengers (Dagger and her companion Bill Clayton) emerged from the folds of Cloak's Cape Of Darkness. Doom happened to be working on a diabolical weapon - using intense light as its power source - at the exact moment Dagger stepped out of the Dark Dimension. Attracted to and fascinated by this light, Dagger persuaded a wary Cloak to investigate. As written, the Cloak character (always eager to please Dagger  ::)) relented and the trio of travlers found themselves the guests of Doom. Soon, they discovered how Doom planned to use the project he'd been working on and decided to stop him. Ultimately, it was the young Cloak who confronted Doom in the castle chamber housing this weapon of mass destruction, and who bravely enveloped Doom in his great cape knowing Doom would unleash his armor's weapons to gain freedom from the Dark Dimension. As Doom prepared to do just that, Cloak pivoted and opened his cape at the exact moment Doom opened fire. Instead of finding a target in the Dark Dimension however, Doom's weapons destroyed his nearly-completed weapon. Cloak had single-handedly defeated Dr. Doom. Of course, the larger comicbook-reading demographic dismissed this story as "having never happened" or that Cloak likely defeated a Doombot, not the real deal.

Recently, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo went toe to toe. I would guess we all know how that worked out for Doom.

You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? Granted, the title of this tale is DOOMWAR. Daredevil never confronted the Kingpin in a series called "KINGPINWAR". Daredevil was never set up as the "maybe-antagonist" in his battles with the Kingpin as the Panther, Storm and Shuri have been in their battle against Doom - the only successful invader and conqueror of Wakanda. As far as the larger comicbook-reading demographic was concerned, the battle lines were clearly defined when it was Kingpin vs DD. In the case of DW however, more than a few members of that demographic see Doom as a noble figure and relish the fact that T'Challa and Wakanda are finally "getting what they deserve". It's not enough that yet another Black Panther title has been cancelled, they want T'Challa eradicated. As you alluded to and once again Kip, your observation buttresses what I've been saying about "writers choice/reader's preference". The "next Doom writer" can always satisfy the "reader's preference" in this regard.

What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently? 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 02, 2010, 07:48:50 pm
And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it. But that's not the point of the story. If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods.  ::)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on May 03, 2010, 05:12:28 am
And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it. But that's not the point of the story. If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods.  ::)

Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 05:25:45 am
<<You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? >>

Yeah; when Kingpin found out who DD really was--no holds bar dismembering of his life

I see. Obviously, these DD developments happened after I decided to drop the title along with Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America ... in short, all of Marvel Comics' signature titles. I haven't purchased a Spider-Man title of any sort for more than a decade now; I don't miss the character or his stories at all.

Once, I was a fan of every title I've mentioned. John Buscema pencilled many of the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Thor titles I purchased. John's brother Sal pencilled Captain America, I think he holds a record for consecutive issues of the title that he pencilled. I've always been more about the art than the writing. I really enjoyed DD when it was both written and pencilled by Frank Miller, inked by Klaus Janson. I stayed with the title during the period JR, Jr. took over the pencilling, but dropped the title shortly thereafter, returning to it briefly when Joe Quesada was pencilling the book. I saw DD put through some changes during that time to be sure, but never to the extent to what T'Challa and Storm have been subjected to in DW. But I defer to your more complete knowledge here.

Like most Marvel Comics fans, I once considered X-Men to be the best thing going. I'd always loved the concept. Jack "King" Kirby was responsible for many, if not most, of Marvel's greatest concepts. The X-Men, the Inhumans, the Eternals, the Fantastic Four...our own Black Panther were all Kirby and to hear him tell it, Stan Lee. The Claremont/Byrne run on the X-Men was when I really got heavily into the title and yet, even then, I was annoyed that the X-Men never seemed to win any battle outright or without suffering some significant loss in the course of gaining a victory: ex. Banshee nearly burning out his power in the battle against Moses Magnum in Japan.

I still hope T'Challa delivers one hellacious beating to Doom which results in Doom being humiliated and permanently maimed. It's the price he must pay for being the only invader to ever succeed in conquering Great Wakanda.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 03, 2010, 06:31:07 am
That battle with Kingpin was from back then.  Kingpin found out who DD was and dismanteled Matt's life.  It wasn't until Kingpin had DD's home blown up that Matt even knew the Kingpin had destroyed his life.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 06:32:55 am
And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....

Oh yeah. I had completely forgotten about Polaris. Thanks again, 4Sake.

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Yeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending.


Questions about DW#2 which came to mind after I read it were:

- How was the Wakandan war party (T'Challa, Shuri, and a significant force of Dora Milaje) able to penetrate "Utopia" air space, land and deploy without being detected by the X-Men?

- For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?

- Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?

In trying to decipher the ending of DW#2, I get the idea that Doom had already fooled Bast with his hypocrisy and despicable deceit, dressed, procured the Vibranium, and simply wanted to hang around until T'Challa arrived so that he could twist the knife as it were...subjecting T'Challa to a torturous choice - either give him the key to the last lock or watch him blow Ororo's head off. It was just another example of Doom being the bastard he is and that Bast through her "judgement", allowed him to continue to be.

There are many more questions starting with DW#1 through to DW#3 I hope are answered by the conclusion of the story.

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Now if any of you X-Men would like to assist let me kno & we'll come pick up & etc.. Also as person who reads the X-Men have a prob. with only 3 of her friends came  because majority of X-Men on the island hate living on it & would gladly leave it for even an hour even if meant going to fight a war...

Here, I think we get a sense of the order of Cyclops' priorities. T'Challa allowed his wife and his mother to suffer torment and arrest at the hands of the Desturi because as the former Black Panther put it: "I had to choose between my wife's life and the future of my entire country...I chose my country." Cyclops is recognized - recognized by the X-Men at any rate - as the leader of mutant kind; and that reminds me - if I may digress for a moment. What happened to Storm being "the most important mutant on Earth" due to her marriage to T'Challa (a homosapien, not homosuperior, and King of one of the world's wealthiest, mightiest, most influential nations) as stated by Prof X on the eve of the WEDDING OF THE CENTURY? Once again, we see the wisdom of Ture. The WEDDING story was written by Hudlin. Thus, the story is likely considered a "mistake"...an abomination is more like it... by those denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" who have been persistent and relentless in their objections to everything Hudlin has done and will ever do in the comicbook industry.

Back to the point, as the "leader" of mutantkind, Cyclops likely felt he could not commit any of his people to Storm's rescue as mutantkind is on the verge of extinction and fighting an enemy determined to wipe them out. It would make more sense however, for Cyclops to have sent a few of his people to free one of Earth's mightiest mutants so that she could take part in their war of survival. I don't read anything connected to Marvel's X-franchise, but I don't doubt that Storm is "in there pitching". X-writers seem all too willing to ignore Storm's marriage to the Black Panther and her regal duties as Queen of Wakanda. Of course as we now know, Cyclops left the door open for Storm's closest friends in the X-Men (Wolverine, Colossus, and the great Nightcrawler) to assist in her rescue.

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Also a few things just came as unnecessary to me like S'yan getting shot & him may or may not being dead because killing/making it look like he may die (again) & killing T'Challa & Shuri main/current father-figure when there father T'Chaka is dead & when T'Challa bio. mother is dead.. It come of as unnecessary & annoying.. It like how many parents do these ppl need to lose.. It doesn't better the story or there character development.. I felt the same way about Zuri death.. If you just need to bring a supporting cast member or royal out of limbo just to be kill then just used one : that a who death still can some effect the the main character/s & who story petty much run it course. Like Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru, Omoro & etc..

I am in total agreement with you here, 4Sake. Well said!

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I'd didn't have a prob. with W'Kabi or M'Baku deaths because the both came off as a means to a ends.. W'Kabi had to die or either early retirement for Shuri to became both the T'Challa #2/#3 &to be the main Regent of the big W..

M'Baku was a black male in a Gorilla/Ape outfit.. yeah not the most well thought off concept.. Plus his Death open of a few possible plots such as Ce'Athauna/QDJ coming back, leading the Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult & geting powers. She bringing lasting peace to Wakanda or atleast to the Panther tribe & to Jabari tribe.. Also you could build up a rivalry & friendship between her & Shuri similar to that to BP/Iron Man or better a Gaara/Naruto like friendship & rivalry..


I agree here as well. It's sort of sad to see W'Kabi go. Aside from Zuri, W'Kabi was the last of what seemed to be T'Challa's most intimate and trusted advisors. Taku is dead isn't he? Zatana was killed very early in Panther's Rage. At the moment, T'Challa's most trusted and closest advisors appear the be the beautiful women in his life; Ramonda, Ororo, Shuri, and Aneka.

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Which leads me to my next point.. Another prob. I have with a story like DoomWar & or BP SI is that taking over/ attacking Panther Cult doesn't it = taking over Wakanda because there are 17 other tribes/Cults in Wakanda.. Taking over 1 tribe even with it being the best/strongest doesn't mean taking the whole nation..

So nice nod to what the White Gorilla Cult, N'Jadaka tribe, Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult, mountain tribe & etc are doing when ppl attack Panther Cult would be nice.. (just a small panel of them killing/fighting some skrulls or Desturi when they show up at there house saying we here to take over)...

Very good point. I like the idea of Wakanda putting aside their religious/cult differences/disagreements when the whole of Wakanda is attacked and afterall, the Black Panther cult is the dominant and ruling cult of Wakanda. I think seeing the other cults in action would make for a "fuller" story.

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Also so far I'm disappointed with the lack of Namor (but more than likely that not JM fault), the lack of Ka-Zar (& Shanna) because they have an alliance with T & O saying if you attack one you attack the other..

This probably goes to trying to keep the story from developing too many branches and becoming bogged down by complexities. I would think however, that Namor would be eager to learn why Doom ostensibly framed him, seeming to make it appear that he was responsible for the near-fatal attack on the Black Panther.

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Also I was disappointed the way the loyalist vs non -loyalist to the house of Bashenga/T´Chaka/T'Challa battle ended. It seemed kind of rushed.. I wish something cool happen like T'Challa,, Ororo, Shuri, S'yan & Queen Mom were riding on top  of a Prowler or in a N'Yami class battle cruiser given both (with T & O on prowler & S, S & QM in the cruiser) with T'Challa Ororo & Shuri give a speech to sway the ppl to stop the fighting and saying something to the effect of there will be changes here & etc but 1st we must take action against Doom.. long live Wakanda
 

Now that would have been outstanding!
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 07:12:56 am
What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently? 

CLOAK and DAGGER one shot:

The artwork was very nice. Mark Brooks renders a very nice Cloak. The coloring was strong as well. I liked the way Dagger actually appeared to exude "light". I wasn't especially pleased with Tyrone's hair coloring. I liked the braids very much. I once suggested that since Ty and Tandy have been on the run for so long, that Ty probably has not had much opportunity to visit the barber. For that matter, Tyrone would have to expend a lot of effort to make himself appear normal for the duration of his haircut.

Unfortunately, I felt the story was lacking somewhat, but it wasn't the worst I've seen. I do like the fact that Tyrone was involved with a young lady other than Tandy. While at the CBR, I suggested that Tyrone should get a new female love interest, one resembling Rihanna. Lo and behold, Tia did have a little Rihanna "something" about her. I read some of the comments posted by a few CBR members who'd read the book. One member was a bit put out because this time the script was flipped. It wasn't Tyrone pining for Tandy. After her allowing herself to be kissed by Spider-man while in the presence of Cloak, after carrying on flirtatiously with Bill Clayton, this time it was Tandy who had to deal with the possibility that Tyrone had found someone else. I believe their relationship has been established and now for the future benefit of Cloak and Dagger, it should be put on the back burner. No more stories about Cloak's unrequited love for Dagger. No more insisting that Tyrone and Tandy be rendered in an actual kiss or more. I sense a reluctance in writers to write something like that because seeing black Tyrone kissing blonde-haired/ blue-eyed, pure and glowing white Tandy might not sit too well with some denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans".

I really enjoyed how they depicted Cloak's teleportation effect and how his "darkness" is able to extend beyond his cape to ensnare an opponent and draw that opponent into the cape. No more needing to extend the cape over his target. I also appreciated how Cloak is able to will himself to a normal appearance. A flesh and blood Tyrone has many, many possibilities.

What frustrates me is the following:

- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.

- Darkness is the natural state. Light is transitory. When our sun burns itself out, it will become a black hole and darkness will claim the part of the universe it once illuminated. People have to light torches, use flashlights or lanterns to see their way through dark passages. The space around them is lighted, but all around them darkness holds sway. Cloak should be far more powerful than Dagger and yet, she has been able to absorb Cloak's powers - albeit with Tyrone's help in one instance. Cloak has not yet been written to his fullest potential and really, has not been fully developed as a complete character IMO.

- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.

According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.

Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.

So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 07:21:59 am
Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.

But then, how would that explain Bast's actions in Black Panther:Cry The Accursed Country ?

In that story, Bast was so disgusted with T'Challa's seeming lack of action against the racist regime of Azania, that she abandoned him and entered the body of a black Azanian political prisoner being tortured at the time. Possessed by Bast, that prisoner then went on a killing spree within Azania which terrified the white populace, excited the black populace and gave both reason to believe that the killings were being committed by the Black Panther preparatory to a possible invasion by the Wakandan military.

The black Azanians were unable to throw off the yoke of oppression visited upon them by the white minority. Black Azanians knew of the Black Panther, the Black Panther cult, and the might of Wakanda, but black Azanians didn't worship Bast. Why then should Bast take up the cause of people who didn't worship her? On the other hand, T'Challa was able to defeat 5 white super-powered agents of Azania without the aid and guidance of the Panther God, proving that he was indeed "fit enough to survive" on his own.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on May 03, 2010, 07:41:20 am
Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.

But then, how would that explain Bast's actions in Black Panther:Cry The Accursed Country ?

In that story, Bast was so disgusted with T'Challa's seeming lack of action against the racist regime of Azania, that she abandoned him and entered the body of a black Azanian political prisoner being tortured at the time. Possessed by Bast, that prisoner then went on a killing spree within Azania which terrified the white populace, excited the black populace and gave both reason to believe that the killings were being committed by the Black Panther preparatory to a possible invasion by the Wakandan military.

The black Azanians were unable to throw off the yoke of oppression visited upon them by the white minority. Black Azanians knew of the Black Panther, the Black Panther cult, and the might of Wakanda, but black Azanians didn't worship Bast. Why then should Bast take up the cause of people who didn't worship her? On the other hand, T'Challa was able to defeat 5 white super-powered agents of Azania without the aid and guidance of the Panther God, proving that he was indeed "fit enough to survive" on his own.
Maybe the Panther God demands self reliance from his avatar (BP)only. The proof of fitness is not a one time deal it has to be proven at every turn. The Azanian incident was provoked due to T'Challa inaction rather than Bast having any especial interest in black Azanians. The PG flagged T'Challa "if you know that what's going on in Azania is wrong why aren't you doing something about it??" Maybe the PG wanted to know what would T'Challa do if she were to take away her influence (gifts) over him. And now in Doomwar the PG wants to know what is T'Challa going to do to take what is his back.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 08:34:44 am
Interesting points.

Maybe the Panther God demands self reliance from his avatar (BP)only. The proof of fitness is not a one time deal it has to be proven at every turn.

I think that ultimately, it is up to whoever is writing the story to decide what the Panther God demands of T'Challa or Wakanda at any given time. T'Challa has proven himself to be self-reliant on many occasions. Although he might suffer from feelings of inadequacy whenever he compares himself to his father T'Chaka, T'Challa has been a magnificent King of Wakanda in his own right. Not only did T'Challa show himself to be self-reliant when he single-handedly and without aid of Bast (given Bast's attitude toward T'Challa in Cry The Accursed Country, her Wakandan avatar could have died and she wouldn't have blinked an eye as she intended to kill him herself if he proved himself unfit in their final battle) he had proven his self-reliance and worthiness many times previous to that episode and since that episode.

T'Challa didn't pray to Bast for the wisdom to create his techno-jungle; he went out, became highly-educated and earned the brilliant mind which enabled him to achieve such a remarkable feat. It was in that techno-jungle the Panther was able to defeat the Azanian who Bast had possessed, but not the goddess/god itself. I would say T'Challa more than Bast, has been responsible for Wakanda's security and success. T'Challa placed his faith in what to this point is a Jonathan Maberry-created false god who would abandon her avatar and the people who have faithfully worshipped her all on the basis of hypocrisy and deceit of an outworlder who couldn't give a damn about her, her avatar, Wakanda, Egypt and all the cats living there, or the world in general. It's a case of "writer's choice" here. If Ture were writing DW, Bast would have remained true to the Panther and her Wakandans and Doom would be Bast poop by now. The greater comicbook-reading demographic would have hated it. The book probably would have been a smashing failure, but at least Bast wouldn't look as stupid, gullible and traitorous as she appears to some of us. I for one, would have gladly put the $3 in Ture's pocket for writing a Bast that Panther fans would have expected.


 
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The Azanian incident was provoked due to T'Challa inaction rather than Bast having any especial interest in black Azanians.


I don't happen to have an issue of that series handy right now and admittedly, my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be; however, I seem to remember Bast referring to the Azanians as her "people", accusing the Panther of ignoring Azanian cries for assistance and angry because while T'Challa would send money and covert assistance, it wasn't enough in Bast's judgement. I believe she said something to the effect that T'Challa's money couldn't cover the scars on their backs or something like that. In any case, IIRC, Bast did have more than a passing interest in the Azanians. T'Challa was doing exactly what Bast should have expected him to do. As King of Wakanda, he was responsible for keeping Wakanda safe, secure and powerful; this he did. Was T'Challa also responsible for freeing black citizens of a foreign country? According to Peter Gillis' representation of Bast, T'Challa certainly was held responsible. J. Maberry's Bast however, chooses to take the words of a known liar, thief, and murderer over her faithful servant. He has made a ton of Black Panther-hating comicbook fans happy which = money in his pocket I would suspect. I like the upgrades he has made to T'Challa so far and those he plans on making in the future. I just want to see those upgrades in action on Doom, preferrably humiliating and physically maiming him in the process.



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And now in Doomwar the PG wants to know what is T'Challa going to do to take what is his back.

I hope Maberry doesn't have T'Challa taking the same path as Bast. Having T'Challa surrendering to Doom and telling him that he now sees the wisdom of the Panther God, that what Doom took from Wakanda wasn't truly Wakanda's to have in the first place, and finally, asking Doom if he could be a general in his army of Doomworld or at least, chief domestic of his castle butler and maid staff.

Writers have to start giving T'Challa the dignity his character deserves. The decision to do so might make for a poor-selling product as it appears many if not most of the denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" prefer their Black Panther as a subordinate rather than as the powerful character he was created to be.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 10:40:47 am
I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it.

 ;)
 
Ra might not have allowed Doom to get away with it; Horus might not, but Set....Set would have let Doom slide by. That's the thing with having a pantheon of deities. Some of them might be for those who worship them, others might be against those who worship them, while the rest really couldn't care less about those who worship them.

Set = Loki. Odin was angry at Midgard because those who worshipped the gods of Asgard had turned their backs to them; Ra was in a similar boat with his followers and they were subsequently punished. Eventually, Ra left the world's affairs in the hands of Horus who had to deal with the enmity of his brother Set. This relationship mirrors that of Thor and Loki. Odin was indifferent toward Midgard. Thor was protective of Midgard. Loki wanted to mess things up for Midgard, Asgard, the Texas Tech nose guard, a can of Right Guard....Loki just wanted to mess things up for everybody and everything whenever it was possible to do so. Set is very much like Loki in this regard.

Ra has moved beyond the concerns of mortals, having charged Horus with that task. Set has animus for Horus and attacks mortals, particularly those who worship him, to discomfort Horus. I could see Doom knowing enough about this contentious relationship between the godly brothers to take advantage of it. It's possible that appealing directly to Set, Doom could have absconded with Ra-Horus-worshipping-Wakanda's vibranium. Maberry could figure out a way to get that done.


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If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods.  ::)

I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 03, 2010, 11:06:56 am
It is just the norm for the rules of magic; if you know the answer, the word, pass the test, then you get a pass/you win.  This is within the very old tradition of magic questions/quests..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 11:48:58 am
It is just the norm for the rules of magic; if you know the answer, the word, pass the test, then you get a pass/you win.  This is within the very old tradition of magic questions/quests..

hmmmmmm.... :-\

Bast did say:"...All that exists is this moment and the question of purity."

But I'm not so sure it's that simple. If it was just a simple answer to a simple question or a password Bast required...if it was as simple as having Doom navigate a maze or run an obstacle course of some sort, I could see this. Bast required something more; a lot more in my view.

Bast went on to say: "I will look into your soul, Victor Von Doom. If you lie to me, if your heart is impure, if your motivations are tainted by greed or hatred, I will know...Lie to me, Doom and I will devour you!"

Bast knew Doom was foul. She said: "Can you count the numberless dead who have perished for your dreams? Can you tally the harm you have done to those you hate and those you love? You are a monster, Doom!"

To this point, Bast is on her game. Earlier Bast told Doom that if his heart was tainted by greed or hatred, she would know. When Bast asked Doom if he could tally the harm he has perpetrated against those he loves and those he hates, she knew then and there Doom's heart was tainted by hatred. Bast correctly identified Doom as a "monster" and should have devoured him then and there.

If Bast wasn't sure Doom's heart was tainted by hatred at that point (she sure seemed to be) when Doom went on to ask Bast "Do you know why I despise Richards and T'Challa?", that question should have been the clincher that Doom's heart was tainted by hatred.  Let's look at that word despise. One word used in common when defining the words hatred and despise is aversion. Aversion describes an intense dislike for a person or a thing and a desire to avoid the person or thing so disliked. Doom's heart was tainted with an aversion, a contempt, a hatred for both T'Challa and Reed Richards on a personal level. Bast should have eaten him right then.

If this isn't enough to convince you, recall Shuri's trial to become the Black Panther. When Shuri made her case before the Panther God, she told Bast that she was "ready for this", she had trained her entire life for this...basically, Shuri's case to Bast was that being the Black Panther was her "destiny". Bast dismissed Shuri telling her she was no Black Panther, turned her back on her and stalked away. Shuri had to prove herself worthy of the Panther mantle in battle against Morlun, not for personal glory, but to protect her nation from an unspeakable threat. When she did so, she became the Black Panther.

Doom basically used that same "destiny" approach on Bast and she seemed prepared to reject it, but inexplicably allowed Doom to continue making his case. We all know by now that though Bast rejected Shuri's "destiny" approach, she accepted Doom's. That's when Bast succumbed to her "Maberry moment" and did the unthinkable, granting Wakanda's greatest resource besides the Panther and her people, to a murdering meglomaniac.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 03, 2010, 12:51:42 pm
But hatred was not his motive, nor did it taint his motive--all he did, he did because he honestly believed his course was the only course for mankind to survive.  That was the purity test.  He wasn't trying to take the metal to inflict vengence or hatred on others.  He took it, because he believed he was right.  Yes, he may despise Richard and T, but he didn't act on that hatred in this matter, and this matter (getting the metal) was the only thing being tested.. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on May 03, 2010, 01:12:00 pm
Perhaps she didn't devour Doom for the same reason she didn't devour Shuri.. As a continuation of the test.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 03, 2010, 02:18:25 pm
And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....


Oh yeah. I had completely forgotten about Polaris. Thanks again, 4Sake.

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Yeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending.


Questions about DW#2 which came to mind after I read it were:

- How was the Wakandan war party (T'Challa, Shuri, and a significant force of Dora Milaje) able to penetrate "Utopia" air space, land and deploy without being detected by the X-Men?



Because T'Challa make the best planes/jets/aircrafts & etc (weather its speed, stealth or what have you)  in the Marvel U a fact that rarely mention.  :-[  Which is badly written statments like this make no sense when T'Challa has aircrafts that can get ppl half and world in about 20 mins (& some under 20mins) Plus T'Challa has way better tech than on Utopia.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/36512/1039235-storm_517_large.png) (http://www.comicvine.com/storm_517/105-1039235/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1208158-t_c_always_prepared_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/t_c_always_prepared/105-1208158/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1207925-bp_plane_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/bp_plane/105-1207925/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1207314-t_challa_b2a_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/t_challa_b2a/105-1207314/)

For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?

Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?


Think we are supposed go with that the heroes leaned of the Desturi around or right before Secret Invasion & got busy with the with the other attacks on the nation& on the world (WWH, Death of Steve R, FF storyline, Shadow King, Skrulls, Morlun & etc.) before they could find. out who the leaders of the group were.. Then got a little more busy with T'Challa dieing for a min.. Or it could been before that like right after Civil War because the plot of who blow up the the NY Wakanda embassy hasn't been followed up so it come have them who planted the bombs... 

In trying to decipher the ending of DW#2, I get the idea that Doom had already fooled Bast with his hypocrisy and despicable deceit, dressed, procured the Vibranium, and simply wanted to hang around until T'Challa arrived so that he could twist the knife as it were...subjecting T'Challa to a torturous choice - either give him the key to the last lock or watch him blow Ororo's head off. It was just another example of Doom being the bastard he is and that Bast through her "judgement", allowed him to continue to be.


Good points... I think ur right..

Here, I think we get a sense of the order of Cyclops' priorities. T'Challa allowed his wife and his mother to suffer torment and arrest at the hands of the Desturi because as the former Black Panther put it: "I had to choose between my wife's life and the future of my entire country...I chose my country." Cyclops is recognized - recognized by the X-Men at any rate - as the leader of mutant kind; and that reminds me - if I may digress for a moment. What happened to Storm being "the most important mutant on Earth" due to her marriage to T'Challa (a homosapien, not homosuperior, and King of one of the world's wealthiest, mightiest, most influential nations) as stated by Prof X on the eve of the WEDDING OF THE CENTURY? Once again, we see the wisdom of Ture. The WEDDING story was written by Hudlin. Thus, the story is likely considered a "mistake"...an abomination is more like it... by those denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" who have been persistent and relentless in their objections to everything Hudlin has done and will ever do in the comicbook industry.


Non of the currently x-writes are really big Storm fans (some of them like her ok. but just not big fans so if don't feel like writing her or feel they can't find her voice then they don't write her), The same thing as happen lot of x-men most well known characters..(Kurt- who was just killed, Peter- who mostly says ''da'' these days, Gambit, Jubilee.. the list goes on.) Who only show when they have to & are mostly badly written in Uncanny X-Men.. Yost write her well & writes T'Challa well, but his Wakanda suck, but he going to leave X-books for a while to focus on the new Avengers cartoon(which T'Challa will be a main cast member in..).. 

Back to the point, as the "leader" of mutantkind, Cyclops likely felt he could not commit any of his people to Storm's rescue as mutantkind is on the verge of extinction and fighting an enemy determined to wipe them out. It would make more sense however, for Cyclops to have sent a few of his people to free one of Earth's mightiest mutants so that she could take part in their war of survival. I don't read anything connected to Marvel's X-franchise, but I don't doubt that Storm is "in there pitching". X-writers seem all too willing to ignore Storm's marriage to the Black Panther and her regal duties as Queen of Wakanda. Of course as we now know, Cyclops left the door open for Storm's closest friends in the X-Men (Wolverine, Colossus, and the great Nightcrawler) to assist in her rescue.


Yeah Scott reasons make sense to me story wise, But the closest friends things that get me.. 

(Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler)..

Wolverine & Storm are close freinds, but not as close freinds & she has closer freinds than him. alot ppl. make them out to be.. IMO it like some fans try to make there friendship closer than it really is.. Mostly because those horrible X-movie & because some fans want they to get it on.. When Logan & Storm has never been hinted to be dating or sleeping together in any 616 X-Men book or Wolverine book I ever read.. In fact it been the opposite he said in BP that they never had sex, but wanted to & had felling for her,  he says in Wolverine he feeling for her & in Wolverine Weapon X we he talking to all his past loves & imporant women in his life they (He & Storm) talk about Yukio wanting bang him  & Yokio & his sex life/relationship..  But you still see ppl swear up & down they got it on..   

IMO There atleast 5 ppl/X-Men closer to Logan than Storm (not counting his current girlfriend Melita Garner).. 1. Jubilee, 2.Kurt, 3.Kitty, 4. Jean & 5.  Tie Domino, Piotr, X-23 I'd put Storm in the next group with Rogue, Cannonball, Sunspot & Psylocke.. And with Storm not counting T'Challa her husband there are 5 ppl/X-Men imo who are closer to her than him.. 1. Tie Jean, Kitty, Gambit, Piotr 5. Tie Kurt, Professor X Bishop.. I'd put Logan next group along with Rogue, Psylocke, Cannonball Cyclops, Jubilee& Iceman.. So yes they good freinds/ close freinds, but not the super best freinds or ex lovers that some ppl make them out to be some times.. 

Now out of that list Jean dead, Kitty (was lost in space at the time, but she back now), Prof X. (would end the fight to fast), Bishop (was turned into Wile E. Coyote).. So that leaves Remy, Kurt & Poitr.. Remy underminds Scott for fun & has done it for alot less. Also Storm was one of the 3 major reasons he joined the X-Men in the 1st place (the other 2 were he thought Rogue was cute & respected Prof X & his dream) & is not currently dating Rogue. So I just can't see him not going & justing staying on the island that he hates being on & canon wise is just as close to Storm as Logan, Kurt & Poitr if not closer.. I also could see Rogue & Psylocke going also.. With Iceman wanting to, but not being able to best he has to keep making fresh water for the island..

I agree here as well. It's sort of sad to see W'Kabi go. Aside from Zuri, W'Kabi was the last of what seemed to be T'Challa's most intimate and trusted advisors. Taku is dead isn't he? Zatana was killed very early in Panther's Rage. At the moment, T'Challa's most trusted and closest advisors appear the be the beautiful women in his life; Ramonda, Ororo, Shuri, and Aneka.


No Taku is alvie & he still living in & running the Techno-Jungle.. He was last in Fantastic Four #546 I think..  I was also, but I see Shuri take over his role in a more proactive way once T'Challa become BP again..

I'd say is one of his advisors now Zawavari. Also if Syan is really dead & Zuri is dead I guess the Panther God could maybe bring them back to lofe some how sense she/he is a god..

This probably goes to trying to keep the story from developing too many branches and becoming bogged down by complexities. I would think however, that Namor would be eager to learn why Doom ostensibly framed him, seeming to make it appear that he was responsible for the near-fatal attack on the Black Panther.


Plus T'Challa & Doom are Namor closer freinds & really only other friends than Steve R..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 03, 2010, 07:55:34 pm
But hatred was not his motive, nor did it taint his motive--all he did, he did because he honestly believed his course was the only course for mankind to survive.  That was the purity test.  He wasn't trying to take the metal to inflict vengence or hatred on others.  He took it, because he believed he was right.  Yes, he may despise Richard and T, but he didn't act on that hatred in this matter, and this matter (getting the metal) was the only thing being tested.. 

Ahhhhh, the vagaries of the comicbook story/comicbook writer....

Strong points and looking at what transpired between Bast and Doom in strict terms of black and white, it would appear that in that moment, Doom was able to effectively mask his true nature (lying, murdering meglomaniac) sufficient to meet Bast's criteria. Knowing Doom to be a murdering "monster", Bast was convinced that Doom's motive for taking the vibranium were "pure" on the strength of his word buttressed by his unwavering belief in his own megalomania. Bast rejected the sane presentation of "destiny" offered by Black Panther candidate Shuri, but accepted a very similar presentation given by Doom, a murderer suffering from advanced mental illness. Bast is either very wise and is working out her own plan in very mysterious ways or she is an idiot.

I tend to go with the following observation:

Perhaps she didn't devour Doom for the same reason she didn't devour Shuri.. As a continuation of the test.

And I believe it's a contnuation of a test that Doom has to fail. Doom says he "loves" the world and that is why he wants to rule it with an iron glove. Doom might love his mother, but that's about it. It's telling how so many denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" are actually rooting for Doom to win. I think this speaks volumes to why the Black Panther has never been a comicbook "A-lister". Many consumers who comprise the greater comicbook-reading demographic seem to identify more closely to Dr. Doom than they do the Black Panther.

At any rate, I hope Doom's ultimate defeat in this saga doesn't mirror what happened in Doctor Voodoo, ending with Jericho simply punching Doom in the nose and saying: "Okay, show's over. You lost. Go home." whereupon Doom gets to his feet and opens a magical wormhole to transport himself away but not before giving Doom the stereotypical villian's last retort: "We will meet again, Drumm...Soon."

What?  ??? That's it?!

No. Doom needs to lose a limb or an eye for what he's done to T'Challa, Ororo, Shuri, Ramonda, and Wakanda. Marvel fans need to get used to the idea of Doom having a prosthetic arm or leg or at least having one of his missing eyes shielded by a black visor over that particular eye slot.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 03, 2010, 08:16:57 pm
What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently? 


CLOAK and DAGGER one shot:

The artwork was very nice. Mark Brooks renders a very nice Cloak. The coloring was strong as well. I liked the way Dagger actually appeared to exude "light". I wasn't especially pleased with Tyrone's hair coloring. I liked the braids very much. I once suggested that since Ty and Tandy have been on the run for so long, that Ty probably has not had much opportunity to visit the barber. For that matter, Tyrone would have to expend a lot of effort to make himself appear normal for the duration of his haircut.


I also liked the art..

Unfortunately, I felt the story was lacking somewhat, but it wasn't the worst I've seen. I do like the fact that Tyrone was involved with a young lady other than Tandy. While at the CBR, I suggested that Tyrone should get a new female love interest, one resembling Rihanna. Lo and behold, Tia did have a little Rihanna "something" about her. I read some of the comments posted by a few CBR members who'd read the book. One member was a bit put out because this time the script was flipped. It wasn't Tyrone pining for Tandy. After her allowing herself to be kissed by Spider-man while in the presence of Cloak, after carrying on flirtatiously with Bill Clayton, this time it was Tandy who had to deal with the possibility that Tyrone had found someone else. I believe their relationship has been established and now for the future benefit of Cloak and Dagger, it should be put on the back burner. No more stories about Cloak's unrequited love for Dagger. No more insisting that Tyrone and Tandy be rendered in an actual kiss or more. I sense a reluctance in writers to write something like that because seeing black Tyrone kissing blonde-haired/ blue-eyed, pure and glowing white Tandy might not sit too well with some denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans".


Yeah she did look like Rihanna lol... Also I think they will have them kiss at some point, I'm not really sure why they haven't yet.. but I'M indifferent if they do our not..

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/46357/1204577-cloak_and_dagger__1_008_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cloak_and_dagger__1_008/105-1204577/)

I really enjoyed how they depicted Cloak's teleportation effect and how his "darkness" is able to extend beyond his cape to ensnare an opponent and draw that opponent into the cape. No more needing to extend the cape over his target. I also appreciated how Cloak is able to will himself to a normal appearance. A flesh and blood Tyrone has many, many possibilities.


Yeah that was very cool..


What frustrates me is the following:

- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.



I'm not really sure. I think some writers.. write as the Cloak on Ty is the source of his powers & not he him self is the source of the powers (which kind goes back are they mutants or they mutates thing)

- Darkness is the natural state. Light is transitory. When our sun burns itself out, it will become a black hole and darkness will claim the part of the universe it once illuminated. People have to light torches, use flashlights or lanterns to see their way through dark passages. The space around them is lighted, but all around them darkness holds sway. Cloak should be far more powerful than Dagger and yet, she has been able to absorb Cloak's powers - albeit with Tyrone's help in one instance. Cloak has not yet been written to his fullest potential and really, has not been fully developed as a complete character IMO.


I agree..

- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.

According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.

Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.


That changes from writer to it changed atleast 3-5 times sense they were taken out of limbo last year.. Some prefer they are mutants & some want they to be mutates.. If there next app. is written by a writer who like them better as mutants they be latent mutants ..

IMO the best thing to do is make them both (that why is stop changing every time they re-app.) & say something to the effect of that they have latent x-genes (which would make them latent mutants).. & when D'Spayre infused portions of his soul in they by them being force to take the drug D-Lite (he was the real creator of the drug).. actived there latent/inactive x-gene which would make they both since x-gene is now activated but now amplified & change by D'Spayre power..

The further put it to rest then show what there latent mutants would look like activated in another way like by a machine or something.. You then show Cloak being able to teleport by bending the light around his body and Dagger being able to generate & firer dark energy daggers for her hands..

Since Doctor Nemesis is petty smart you get character that are much smart then him in general & in those fields.. So show T'Challa,  Reed R. (both MUCH smarter than him in general), Prof.X (much smarter than him when it come to mutant dna), Doctor Voodoo & Doctor Strange (both MUCH smarter than him when it come to magic & demons powers.. like D'Spayre.)

That imo should be enuff canon wise to prove that both mutants & mutates..


 
So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.


Me to &  this story felt like it was being of a mini or ongoing & not a 1 shot because it just ended when Cloak & Dagger looking like they were about to go at it lol & left those other plots open like where Tia come from, who were the ppl that kidnap Cloak & brainwashed Tia, Dagger possibly continuing a friendship with Storm..   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 03, 2010, 11:31:20 pm
<<Bast is either very wise and is working out her own plan in very mysterious ways or she is an idiot>>

Ah, there is a third option--Bast isn't real.  GRIN.  Since JM invented the test, and he invented the means to pass the test and determined that Doom mets the criteria the writer sets, then one could conclude the problem is the writer didn't word the test/arguments clear enough for everyone. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 04, 2010, 02:49:21 am
Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.

Whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 04, 2010, 02:52:06 am
I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?

Whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 04, 2010, 06:41:21 am
Because T'Challa make the best planes/jets/aircrafts & etc (weather its speed, stealth or what have you)  in the Marvel U a fact that rarely mention.  :-[  Which is badly written statments like this make no sense when T'Challa has aircrafts that can get ppl half and world in about 20 mins (& some under 20mins) Plus T'Challa has way better tech than on Utopia.

So very true. I haven't read an Avengers comic since 2008. Do the Avengers still use the Quinjet as their primary means of transportation? Now that you mention it, I can easily see how stealth aircraft could land on Utopia and how highly-skilled warriors could stealthily deploy without being detected. The fact that a Wakandan force of such size could do so on Utopia, a island occupied by highly-skilled mutant warriors who because of their present dire circumstances must be on high alert 24/7, says something about the skill of Wakandan technology and warrior technique.

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For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?

Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?

Think we are supposed go with that the heroes leaned of the Desturi around or right before Secret Invasion & got busy with the with the other attacks on the nation& on the world (WWH, Death of Steve R, FF storyline, Shadow King, Skrulls, Morlun & etc.) before they could find. out who the leaders of the group were.. Then got a little more busy with T'Challa dieing for a min.. Or it could been before that like right after Civil War because the plot of who blow up the the NY Wakanda embassy hasn't been followed up so it come have them who planted the bombs...
 

That makes sense. I remember when Blade joined MI:13, Captain Britain asked him why he chose to return to the U.K. instead of staying in the U.S. to fight the Skrulls. Blade told Cap Britain that Skrulls were "like the weather"...they'll pass. Blade was more interested in fighting vampires than in fighting the Skrulls. So Doom very well could have used the Skrull invasion as cover for his covert plans against Wakanda. I could see Doom dismissing the Secret Invasion, being confident Earth's heroes would ultimately successfully repel and defeat the Skrulls. During the chaotic climate at that time, Doom and his Wakandan collaborators could have solidified their plans and set them in motion while loyal Wakandans were fighting Skrull Commander K'vvvr, Son of K'and'rr and his 7th Fleet.  By the way, I loved the art in that arc. Jefte Palo's style looks to be a mixture of Mike Mignola and a dash of Bruce Timm. That Civil War angle is interesting. Here I was thinking Iron Man's forces were responsible for the destruction of the Wakandan Embassy.

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Non of the currently x-writes are really big Storm fans (some of them like her ok. but just not big fans so if don't feel like writing her or feel they can't find her voice then they don't write her), The same thing as happen lot of x-men most well known characters..(Kurt- who was just killed, Peter- who mostly says ''da'' these days, Gambit, Jubilee.. the list goes on.) Who only show when they have to & are mostly badly written in Uncanny X-Men.. Yost write her well & writes T'Challa well, but his Wakanda suck, but he going to leave X-books for a while to focus on the new Avengers cartoon(which T'Challa will be a main cast member in..)..

It would be great if some X-writer working the story of the mutant's life and death struggle against those determined to exterminate them would allow T'Challa to fight beside Ororo when she returns to help the X-Men. Nothing like that will happen of course. If some X-writers are lukewarm to writing Storm they are probably frigid to the idea of writing T'Challa. That attitude by those writers - if indeed it exists - perpetuates hostility against the Black Panther and the idea that he only cares about himself and Wakanda in that order, and cares very little for his wife, Storm. It would probably annoy many an X-fan if T'Challa insisted on fighting at his wife's side in her battle for the survival of her species and herself. Of course T'Challa will be a no-show. X-fans will take that opportunity to rail about how he doesn't love Storm and that their MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY should end. Too bad. Nightcrawler was one of the best characters ever created. That he could be killed off only intensifies my disdain for and disinterest in anything X-Men related. How can they kill off characters like Synch, Phoenix, Nightcrawler...kill Colossus, bring him back perhaps to kill him again at some point in the future...how can they kill off great characters like the aforementioned and hang on to stupid characters like Anole? I don't understand. 

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Wolverine & Storm are close freinds, but not as close freinds & she has closer freinds than him. alot ppl. make them out to be.. IMO it like some fans try to make there friendship closer than it really is.. Mostly because those horrible X-movie & because some fans want they to get it on.. When Logan & Storm has never been hinted to be dating or sleeping together in any 616 X-Men book or Wolverine book I ever read.. In fact it been the opposite he said in BP that they never had sex, but wanted to & had felling for her,  he says in Wolverine he feeling for her & in Wolverine Weapon X we he talking to all his past loves & imporant women in his life they (He & Storm) talk about Yukio wanting bang him  & Yokio & his sex life/relationship..  But you still see ppl swear up & down they got it on..
 

I'm happy to see that "RoLo" nonsense seems to have run its course. Those "RoLo" people got their satisfaction in Marvel's Ultimate line. From what little I know of that situation, Ororo chased after Wolverine like she was in heat and the writing made it known that Wolverine could have had Ororo anytime, anyway he wanted her. The thing is, he didn't want Ororo at all. He had the hots for Jean Grey. It seems to me that many X-fans are only interested in seeing Storm disgraced and misused....or a homosexual. I'm sure or at least I would hope, that had they been present when T'Challa asked Cyclops for help against the Desturi, both Jean Grey and Kitty Pryde would have been on their way to Wakanda before Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine could blink one time. Jean and Ororo are sisters.

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No Taku is alvie & he still living in & running the Techno-Jungle.. He was last in Fantastic Four #546 I think..  I was also, but I see Shuri take over his role in a more proactive way once T'Challa become BP again..
I'd say is one of his advisors now Zawavari. Also if Syan is really dead & Zuri is dead I guess the Panther God could maybe bring them back to lofe some how sense she/he is a god..


Very good to see Taku is still alive and well and living in Wakanda. It would be fantastic if Shuri and T'Challa developed a close loving, trusting and protective relationship. I would hate it if writers used Claremont's
Quote
New Exiles
story as a blueprint of how T'Challa's and Shuri's relationship should proceed. Shuri makes a beautiful...and I do mean BEAUTIFUL Black Panther. If circumstances are such that she does relinquish the mantle and return it to T'Challa, she should remain an active adventurer, developing a unique identity of her own. IMO, Shuri is a great character. Zawavari is a fun and entertaining character. Now that T'Challa has embraced the benefits of mysticism, Zawavari would be positioned to advise him in the future.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 04, 2010, 06:49:28 am
<<Bast is either very wise and is working out her own plan in very mysterious ways or she is an idiot>>

Ah, there is a third option--Bast isn't real.  GRIN.

The third option is the BEST Bast option, yet. Very good.

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Since JM invented the test, and he invented the means to pass the test and determined that Doom mets the criteria the writer sets, then one could conclude the problem is the writer didn't word the test/arguments clear enough for everyone. 

Maberry is writing an entertaining story; not gripping, but entertaining. Doom's dominance up to now has been annoying but that is what makes for compelling drama, the badguy getting the best of the goodguy and the waiting for the tide to turn. Judging by this criteria, it appears Maberry is getting the job done.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 04, 2010, 06:51:06 am
I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?

Whatever floats your boat.

 :D  I suppose all I need now are two oars and a lake to row my boat in  :D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 04, 2010, 07:53:44 am
I think what is disturbing the fans here is the fact that Mayberry has given such a good showing to Doom that its hard to imagine at this point that any victory by Storm and the Panthers is possible without more humiliation or loss for the alleged heroes (Storm and the Panthers win but one of them dies, Storm and the Panthers win but one of them is maimed, Storm and the Panthers win but Wakanda gets blown up).

We aren't seeing the unqualified victories we are used to seeing heroes have.

On the other hand the Desturi have been routed and T'Challa is stronger than ever. 




Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 04, 2010, 09:56:36 am
<< Vic Vega:I think what is disturbing the fans here is the fact that Mayberry has given such a good showing to Doom that its hard to imagine at this point that any victory by Storm and the Panthers is possible without more humiliation or loss for the alleged heroes>>

Oh, we already have seen leaks as to how T is going to win this--spoilers---


JM said he is going to have BP delve into a new physics (Shadow something???).  This is a field that Reed shies away from.

Technically, introducing something out-of-the-blue new to win the day is considered bad writing, but it is also a comic book stable.  Many of the greats have used such "surprises" to win the day.  So JM is in good company.  Though it does mean that BP couldn't win otherwise.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 04, 2010, 10:59:51 am
Yeah she did look like Rihanna lol... Also I think they will have them kiss at some point, I'm not really sure why they haven't yet.. but I'M indifferent if they do our not..

Tia and "friends" would be interesting as recurring threats to Cloak and Dagger. This duo has fought every type of foe from street thugs, pimps, drug pushers/dealers/cartels, to Dr. Doom, extraterrestrials, the Beyonder, and Mephisto. Both characters have yet to be developed to their fullest potential and in my view, have proven their chops in spite of this limitation. Luke Cage started out as a Hero for Hire. He was in it for the money and took on whatever/whomever he was being paid to confront, which was not necessarily pimps, chickenhawks (lying in wait for young, hapless runaways), drug pushers/cartels, and crime families. These are criminal types and stories highly relevant and needing to be skillfully told. Cloak and Dagger are perfectly designed for this type of action.

You know...writers have never had a problem writing Logan deep-kissing Ororo, Gambit kissing Ororo, Forge in intimate situations with Ororo, Danny Rand kissing Misty Knight and in fact, I remember seeing scans of the bedroom aftermath of one of Danny's and Misty's lovemaking sessions. Danny was lying in the bed looking like the cat who ate the canary; Misty was up and out of frame getting showered and dressed or something. I believe there was some sort of discussion about "pancakes" or something and Misty did not seem to be amused. The bedroom scene looked as if a superhero battle had taken place. IIRC, there was a broken lamp and holes in the wall which I suspect were put there by Misty while in the throes of erotic ecstasy.

When it comes to Bishop and Sage moving beyond having dinner together to "doing-the-do", never happened. Synch was kissed by Monet once and then he was blown to bits. Later, Jaime Maddrox would "hit a homerun" with Monet. Celia Reyes was written as falling head-over-heels in love with Hank McCoy who was essentially a "manimal" at that time. A story was written showing Celia smiling contentedly beside her blue bigfoot husband and their half-bigfoot children. Angel Salvadore kissed Barnell Bohusk on a dare, but eventually developed genuine feelings for him which lead to her being impregnated by him during underaged sex while she was intoxicated. Bohusk looked like a dead baby bird one might see lying on a sidewalk. But to this date, writers refuse to write Tandy and Tyrone sharing a kiss. They had no problem writing Tyrone chasing Tandy around like a lovesick puppy while she flirted openly with Spider-man, Bill Clayton, and any other male taken with her blonde-haired, blue-eyed feminine charms. "Writer's choice; reader's preference".

I don't care if the issue of romance between Cloak and Dagger ever comes up again. I do know that portraying him as chasing Dagger's skirt and her not giving him the time of day, portraying Dagger as an "angel of light" while Cloak was the "demon of darkness" was demeaning to the character of Cloak and diminished him as a character. I would be happy to see the two acting as they were created to. They are not like Spider-Man and Daredevil. They are costumed, yes; however, not as garishly outfitted as Spider-Man and Daredevil. A reader could actually believe Cloak and Dagger would scare most street thug-types out of their wits before they even felt the sting of their powers. Factor in the way they can literally appear out of shadow to launch their sudden and devastating attacks and there is no reason to believe street thugs would have a greater fear of Cloak and Dagger than they would of Spider-Man and Daredevil. Some writer simply needs to fully develop these characters and use them correctly. There's no reason why they shouldn't be a successful ongoing.

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What frustrates me is the following:

- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.


I'm not really sure. I think some writers.. write as the Cloak on Ty is the source of his powers & not he him self is the source of the powers (which kind goes back are they mutants or they mutates thing)

You've nailed it. Some writers have tried to make the cape the power. Not so. Tyrone is the power; his body is the actual portal to the Dark Dimension. The cloak he wears is simply a tool he can use to focus his power in a fixed area, although his darkness is capable of extending far beyond the confines of his cape. I believe Claremont understood this perfectly. In a New Mutants story, Sunspot and Wolfsbane somehow acquired the powers of Cloak and Dagger. However, as Claremont wrote it, Tyrone's power (the darkness) never seemed to fully take leave of Tyrone. It gathered itself to him and tried to coalesce around him. Cloak's darkness should not be looked upon as evil. The Russian mutant Darkstar - Nezhno's cousin...half-sister maybe?  :D... derives her powers from the Dark Dimension as well; she's not portrayed as being evil or demonic.

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- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.

According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.

Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.

That changes from writer to it changed atleast 3-5 times sense they were taken out of limbo last year.. Some prefer they are mutants & some want they to be mutates.. If there next app. is written by a writer who like them better as mutants they be latent mutants ..

IMO the best thing to do is make them both (that why is stop changing every time they re-app.) & say something to the effect of that they have latent x-genes (which would make them latent mutants).. & when D'Spayre infused portions of his soul in they by them being force to take the drug D-Lite (he was the real creator of the drug).. actived there latent/inactive x-gene which would make they both since x-gene is now activated but now amplified & change by D'Spayre power..

The further put it to rest then show what there latent mutants would look like activated in another way like by a machine or something.. You then show Cloak being able to teleport by bending the light around his body and Dagger being able to generate & firer dark energy daggers for her hands..

Since Doctor Nemesis is petty smart you get character that are much smart then him in general & in those fields.. So show T'Challa,  Reed R. (both MUCH smarter than him in general), Prof.X (much smarter than him when it come to mutant dna), Doctor Voodoo & Doctor Strange (both MUCH smarter than him when it come to magic & demons powers.. like D'Spayre.)

That imo should be enuff canon wise to prove that both mutants & mutates..

Yep, I think making them both is the way to go. I think there is a case to be made for Mandrill and Nekra being both as well. Mandrill's white father and Nekra's black mother were both exposed to radiation (or something), that altered something in their DNA. Mandrill's father wasn't a mutant, neither was Nekra's mother, but as a result of their exposure to that radiation, their children were born with anomalies which marked them as mutants.

 
Quote
So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.

Me to &  this story felt like it was being of a mini or ongoing & not a 1 shot because it just ended when Cloak & Dagger looking like they were about to go at it lol & left those other plots open like where Tia come from, who were the ppl that kidnap Cloak & brainwashed Tia, Dagger possibly continuing a friendship with Storm..  
[/quote]

Good ideas. Cloak and Dagger should develop a friendship with Storm and the Black Panther. I once suggested that T'Challa could be a supporter of the duo, founding an inner city community center where Tyrone and Tandy might actually work as activity coordinators. They could move out of that broken-down church...does that church even have a working toilet? I hope so...and into a modest apartment. I don't think such a move would cramp their style as vigilantes of the night.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 04, 2010, 11:24:01 am
I think what is disturbing the fans here is the fact that Mayberry has given such a good showing to Doom that its hard to imagine at this point that any victory by Storm and the Panthers is possible without more humiliation or loss for the alleged heroes (Storm and the Panthers win but one of them dies, Storm and the Panthers win but one of them is maimed, Storm and the Panthers win but Wakanda gets blown up).

We aren't seeing the unqualified victories we are used to seeing heroes have.

On the other hand the Desturi have been routed and T'Challa is stronger than ever. 

Aside from a few pockets of resistance here and there, the Desturi is done for. Storm should be allowed to execute any Desturi members found guilty of grievous, irredeemable crimes against Wakanda by electrocution after Doom is defeated and the business of restoring Wakanda to normal begins.

No worries about T'Challa, Ororo, Shuri, Aneka, and the rest of the heroic forces emerging from this battle unscathed - the beautiful Shuri had better not have so much as a bruise on her knee when this is all over. The tide has turned. The counter-offensive has been launched in earnest and Doom's time is running out.

Kip is right. In the final analysis, Wakanda would not have been able to defeat Doom without help from Namor, the FF, Wolverine, Colossus, and the great Nightcrawler. However, the other side of that coin is this. Doom would not have conquered Wakanda if not for the assistance of Wakandan traitors.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 04, 2010, 01:13:39 pm
Sinjection1 you're a master scribe and researcher. Your archives must run deep through the hidden passages of the techno jungle. I am humbled by your comments and shall strive to continue to contribute to this forum in a manner worthy of yours and all the other great posters respect here at the HEF.

Speaking of Hudlin Entertainment, I've spent the last few days checking out this extensive site. There is a lot here. Me and my people are really enjoying it. You have created a wonderful community and a rich environment Reg. Thank you. Glad to know that you will be writing more BP tales especially historical ones. Great interview. Check it out at the About Me Black Panther Reginald at Comic- Con'09. Come to think of it, I'm probably real late with this. Forgive me. Now back to the topic at hand.

The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.








 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 04, 2010, 01:42:23 pm
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

Well, Post Upgrade T'Challa hasn't fought Doom yet.

And without the upgrades, he'd outright lose in a fistfight with Doom (or I should say lose again).

He didn't have all that good of a time of it fighting Doom even when Storm was with him. He was getting choked out, IRRC.

And as I mentiones before Storm's had more lines and scenes in Doomwar than Shuri. It just that for Storm fans any scene where she isn't in charge or overpowering foes is invalid.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 04, 2010, 03:38:50 pm
You are right Vic, Post Upgrade T'Challa hasn't fought Doom yet. Tchalla would not loose a fistfight to Doom. Tchalla has more experience and greater speed and agility. The choke hold Doom had on Tchalla was about to cost Victor a arm or two when Tchalla sliced through them with his anti-metal vibranium claws ;D. Besides Doom was knocked on his butt by the tag team of BPS. It is not Tchalla's fault he has back up, a wife, friends. It is his merit.

In regards to Storm, it's not about how many lines of dialogue she had in Doomwar but the actions she implements to validate such discourse. Storm, another lethal combatant held in check, bound and gagged by what appears to be cloth (Doomwar#2). She couldn't even muster a curt "Blow wind! Blow!" Insulting! Shuri (whom I do really like) is doing her thing well.

I noticed I misspelled Maberry. My apology. I will correct it in the future.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 05, 2010, 02:05:00 am
So very true. I haven't read an Avengers comic since 2008. Do the Avengers still use the Quinjet as their primary means of transportation? Now that you mention it, I can easily see how stealth aircraft could land on Utopia and how highly-skilled warriors could stealthily deploy without being detected. The fact that a Wakandan force of such size could do so on Utopia, a island occupied by highly-skilled mutant warriors who because of their present dire circumstances must be on high alert 24/7, says something about the skill of Wakandan technology and warrior technique.


Yes, most of the teams do.

It would be great if some X-writer working the story of the mutant's life and death struggle against those determined to exterminate them would allow T'Challa to fight beside Ororo when she returns to help the X-Men. Nothing like that will happen of course. If some X-writers are lukewarm to writing Storm they are probably frigid to the idea of writing T'Challa. That attitude by those writers - if indeed it exists - perpetuates hostility against the Black Panther and the idea that he only cares about himself and Wakanda in that order, and cares very little for his wife, Storm. It would probably annoy many an X-fan if T'Challa insisted on fighting at his wife's side in her battle for the survival of her species and herself. Of course T'Challa will be a no-show. X-fans will take that opportunity to rail about how he doesn't love Storm and that their MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY should end. Too bad. Nightcrawler was one of the best characters ever created. That he could be killed off only intensifies my disdain for and disinterest in anything X-Men related. How can they kill off characters like Synch, Phoenix, Nightcrawler...kill Colossus, bring him back perhaps to kill him again at some point in the future...how can they kill off great characters like the aforementioned and hang on to stupid characters like Anole? I don't understand.


I agree, I would kind of like to see T'Challa or atleast some Wakanda warriors fight , but I REALLY WORRIED how they would be written.  Hey Anole isn't that bad  :D, I actually like alot up till late 2008, but after that he start to be badly written (some writers started writing him whiny like ALL THE TIME.. when he wasn't like that at all before.. he whined/complain like once before mid/late 2008.. the time he did itmade sense & was a valid claim..).. Now I'm mostly indifferent to him.. Also they killed Kurt because he's a popluar character/with a some what big fan base, also  for shock valuebecause maybe some of head ppl. the x-office thought mean somthing, but I'd be shocked if he not back 1 or 2 years.. They could killed Anole or some of the younger characters & they make probaly will kill or at least injure one or two, but because there fan bases are small they didn't/haven't yet because less ppl would care.. I mean they killed Ariel like the issue before they didn't Kurt few ppl are talking about it because x-world wise Kurt A/B list & she like Z list.. also Synch was  kind of recently brought in Necrosha.. They story was left open so he could have survived.. It really up to the next writer to decided if he and alot of other formerly dead mutants did or not. (they were brought back as transmode virus & were being controlled by the main villain of the story Selene.) 

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33806/1057444-prv4048_pg5_6genxnewx_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/prv4048_pg5_6genxnewx/105-1057444/)   

I'm happy to see that "RoLo" nonsense seems to have run its course. Those "RoLo" people got their satisfaction in Marvel's Ultimate line. From what little I know of that situation, Ororo chased after Wolverine like she was in heat and the writing made it known that Wolverine could have had Ororo anytime, anyway he wanted her. The thing is, he didn't want Ororo at all. He had the hots for Jean Grey. It seems to me that many X-fans are only interested in seeing Storm disgraced and misused....or a homosexual. I'm sure or at least I would hope, that had they been present when T'Challa asked Cyclops for help against the Desturi, both Jean Grey and Kitty Pryde would have been on their way to Wakanda before Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine could blink one time. Jean and Ororo are sisters.


I agree, that & its lacking in Jubilee are the main reasons why I never could get into Ultimate X-Men.. You make a comic about about the x-men in there teens & you leave out one of the most popular & important character & who's been a teen for most of her creation (she 20 now as of 2008-2010).. that just didn't make sense to me..

Very good to see Taku is still alive and well and living in Wakanda. It would be fantastic if Shuri and T'Challa developed a close loving, trusting and protective relationship. I would hate it if writers used Claremont's New Exiles story as a blueprint of how T'Challa's and Shuri's relationship should proceed. Shuri makes a beautiful...and I do mean BEAUTIFUL Black Panther. If circumstances are such that she does relinquish the mantle and return it to T'Challa, she should remain an active adventurer, developing a unique identity of her own. IMO, Shuri is a great character. Zawavari is a fun and entertaining character. Now that T'Challa has embraced the benefits of mysticism, Zawavari would be positioned to advise him in the future..   


I agree & my picks for her new id are Caracal or Serval(both African cats)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 05, 2010, 03:39:23 am
Tia and "friends" would be interesting as recurring threats to Cloak and Dagger. This duo has fought every type of foe from street thugs, pimps, drug pushers/dealers/cartels, to Dr. Doom, extraterrestrials, the Beyonder, and Mephisto. Both characters have yet to be developed to their fullest potential and in my view, have proven their chops in spite of this limitation. Luke Cage started out as a Hero for Hire. He was in it for the money and took on whatever/whomever he was being paid to confront, which was not necessarily pimps, chickenhawks (lying in wait for young, hapless runaways), drug pushers/cartels, and crime families. These are criminal types and stories highly relevant and needing to be skillfully told. Cloak and Dagger are perfectly designed for this type of action.

They are not like Spider-Man and Daredevil. They are costumed, yes; however, not as garishly outfitted as Spider-Man and Daredevil. A reader could actually believe Cloak and Dagger would scare most street thug-types out of their wits before they even felt the sting of their powers. Factor in the way they can literally appear out of shadow to launch their sudden and devastating attacks and there is no reason to believe street thugs would have a greater fear of Cloak and Dagger than they would of Spider-Man and Daredevil. Some writer simply needs to fully develop these characters and use them correctly. There's no reason why they shouldn't be a successful ongoing.


I agree, but I'm don't think a ongoing with just them would do to tell in this current comic market.. It probably be best to make it a team book add 1 or 2 more popluar characters that would fit that setting..

You know...writers have never had a problem writing Logan deep-kissing Ororo, Gambit kissing Ororo, Forge in intimate situations with Ororo, Danny Rand kissing Misty Knight and in fact, I remember seeing scans of the bedroom aftermath of one of Danny's and Misty's lovemaking sessions. Danny was lying in the bed looking like the cat who ate the canary; Misty was up and out of frame getting showered and dressed or something. I believe there was some sort of discussion about "pancakes" or something and Misty did not seem to be amused. The bedroom scene looked as if a superhero battle had taken place. IIRC, there was a broken lamp and holes in the wall which I suspect were put there by Misty while in the throes of erotic ecstasy.


Very true.. I wonder that how Mercedes & Daniel got that baby they now have one the way.. (Also he proposed & she accepted.. I think he did before she told him that she was pregnant).. Also Remy & Ororo kissing as very baly written moment that didn't make sense to & glad it still being ignored like alot of other stuff from x-treme x-men... Plus as fan of both Remy & T'Challa I want them to hang out, team up & etc.  

When it comes to Bishop and Sage moving beyond having dinner together to "doing-the-do", never happened. Synch was kissed by Monet once and then he was blown to bits. Later, Jaime Maddrox would "hit a homerun" with Monet. Celia Reyes was written as falling head-over-heels in love with Hank McCoy who was essentially a "manimal" at that time. A story was written showing Celia smiling contentedly beside her blue bigfoot husband and their half-bigfoot children. Angel Salvadore kissed Barnell Bohusk on a dare, but eventually developed genuine feelings for him which lead to her being impregnated by him during underaged sex while she was intoxicated. Bohusk looked like a dead baby bird one might see lying on a sidewalk. But to this date, writers refuse to write Tandy and Tyrone sharing a kiss. They had no problem writing Tyrone chasing Tandy around like a lovesick puppy while she flirted openly with Spider-man, Bill Clayton, and any other male taken with her blonde-haired, blue-eyed feminine charms. "Writer's choice; reader's preference".

I don't care if the issue of romance between Cloak and Dagger ever comes up again. I do know that portraying him as chasing Dagger's skirt and her not giving him the time of day, portraying Dagger as an "angel of light" while Cloak was the "demon of darkness" was demeaning to the character of Cloak and diminished him as a character. I would be happy to see the two acting as they were created to.


Very true, I Think the closer they got was here :

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11768/921784-uncx514_int_15_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/uncx514_int_15/105-921784/)

Also I they finally let Patriot & Kate Bishop kiss, but I'm petty sure she & Speed kissed 1sted.. Also Cage & Jewel still kiss sometimes & she being drawn less homely looking lately imo..  ;D Also he going to be leading/running the Thunderbolts & been hinted to leading a Avengers team..  

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What frustrates me is the following:

- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.



I'm not really sure. I think some writers.. write as the Cloak on Ty is the source of his powers & not he him self is the source of the powers (which kind goes back are they mutants or they mutates thing)

You've nailed it. Some writers have tried to make the cape the power. Not so. Tyrone is the power; his body is the actual portal to the Dark Dimension. The cloak he wears is simply a tool he can use to focus his power in a fixed area, although his darkness is capable of extending far beyond the confines of his cape. I believe Claremont understood this perfectly. In a New Mutants story, Sunspot and Wolfsbane somehow acquired the powers of Cloak and Dagger. However, as Claremont wrote it, Tyrone's power (the darkness) never seemed to fully take leave of Tyrone. It gathered itself to him and tried to coalesce around him. Cloak's darkness should not be looked upon as evil. The Russian mutant Darkstar - Nezhno's cousin...half-sister maybe?  :D... derives her powers from the Dark Dimension as well; she's not portrayed as being evil or demonic.


There have been like 2 or 3 Darkstars created recently some I wouldn't be shocked if one of the was his sister or cousin or aunt or etc

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- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.

According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.

Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.


That changes from writer to it changed atleast 3-5 times sense they were taken out of limbo last year.. Some prefer they are mutants & some want they to be mutates.. If there next app. is written by a writer who like them better as mutants they be latent mutants ..

IMO the best thing to do is make them both (that why is stop changing every time they re-app.) & say something to the effect of that they have latent x-genes (which would make them latent mutants).. & when D'Spayre infused portions of his soul in they by them being force to take the drug D-Lite (he was the real creator of the drug).. actived there latent/inactive x-gene which would make they both since x-gene is now activated but now amplified & change by D'Spayre power..

The further put it to rest then show what there latent mutants would look like activated in another way like by a machine or something.. You then show Cloak being able to teleport by bending the light around his body and Dagger being able to generate & firer dark energy daggers for her hands..

Since Doctor Nemesis is petty smart you get character that are much smart then him in general & in those fields.. So show T'Challa,  Reed R. (both MUCH smarter than him in general), Prof.X (much smarter than him when it come to mutant dna), Doctor Voodoo & Doctor Strange (both MUCH smarter than him when it come to magic & demons powers.. like D'Spayre.)

That imo should be enuff canon wise to prove that both mutants & mutates..


Yep, I think making them both is the way to go. I think there is a case to be made for Mandrill and Nekra being both as well. Mandrill's white father and Nekra's black mother were both exposed to radiation (or something), that altered something in their DNA. Mandrill's father wasn't a mutant, neither was Nekra's mother, but as a result of their exposure to that radiation, their children were born with anomalies which marked them as mutants.


Yeah, they are still consider mutants & both have been popping up alot lately.. Nekra has a daughter now (the father is Grim Reaper) name  Death Reaper. Also every time I see Mandrill & Nekra I can't help but thinking  it crazy there concept of actually got published.. Ok black child come out white & with anger/rage  power (ok not horrible but not great) & white boesn't come black, but come out looking like a monkey & has rape powers (Really Marvel Really??)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/859525-drzodiac14_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/drzodiac14/105-859525/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/934395-death_reaper_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/death_reaper/105-934395/)

http://www.comicvine.com/death-reaper/29-37870/




So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.


Me to &  this story felt like it was being of a mini or ongoing & not a 1 shot because it just ended when Cloak & Dagger looking like they were about to go at it lol & left those other plots open like where Tia come from, who were the ppl that kidnap Cloak & brainwashed Tia, Dagger possibly continuing a friendship with Storm..  


Good ideas. Cloak and Dagger should develop a friendship with Storm and the Black Panther. I once suggested that T'Challa could be a supporter of the duo, founding an inner city community center where Tyrone and Tandy might actually work as activity coordinators. They could move out of that broken-down church...does that church even have a working toilet? I hope so...and into a modest apartment. I don't think such a move would cramp their style as vigilantes of the night.



Thats good question about the toilet lol :D.. , but do they need to eat? I wonder can they just live off there dark & light energies. And I remember read that idea of yours on cbr..  
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 05, 2010, 03:47:39 am
Whatever floats your boat.

 :D  I suppose all I need now are two oars and a lake to row my boat in  :D

Too much work. Rent a speedboat instead. Impress the babes.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 05, 2010, 05:04:59 am
Whatever floats your boat.

 :D  I suppose all I need now are two oars and a lake to row my boat in  :D

Too much work. Rent a speedboat instead. Impress the babes.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Naw, I think I'll stick with the rowing. The exercise would do wonders for my physique, I should think. Perfect pecs, delectable lats, bulging biceps and triumphant triceps...I think a babe or two might be impressed by that, unless I overdid it of course and started to resemble a bad Rob Liefeld sketch.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 06, 2010, 10:05:58 am
Sinjection1 you're a master scribe and researcher. Your archives must run deep through the hidden passages of the techno jungle. I am humbled by your comments and shall strive to continue to contribute to this forum in a manner worthy of yours and all the other great posters respect here at the HEF.

"master scribe"? Well, I liked to do a little sketching in my day but truth be told, came to content myself with being at best, a mediocre scribbler. But "master scribe"! To receive such a compliment from you, Ture - one who truly qualifies as such - is high praise indeed. Thank you. It was clear to me from the reading of your first post that your brilliant, observant, intelligent contributions come as naturally and as effortlessly to you as a soaring, spectacular slam dunk comes to Kobe or LeBron. "Ain't no step for a stepper." That's what comes to my mind whenever I read the well-presented wisdom in comments having the name Jenn, Supreme Illuminati, or Turi following the "Posted by:" Please keep enlightening us with your entertaining and thought-provoking contributions.

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What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade?


Doom came closer to killing T'Challa than any of his foes that come to mind. I can't remember any attack by Killmonger himself that literally, put the Black Panther at death's wide open door and having to fight off a legion of demons (or whatever they were) to keep from being pulled through to the other side. If not for the love and sacrifice of his drop-dead gorgeous wife Queen Ororo and the magicks of Zawavari, T'Challa might not have survived and happily, his drop-dead gorgeous wife didn't have to literally drop dead in order to rescue him...and DAMN IT ALL, I HATE to have to admit that T'Challa needed rescue.

To the credit of this great Warrior King, T'Challa seemed quickly to have recovered from the worst of his injuries; however, the grueling process of this recovery had to have been taxing even for him. Doom is a devious, despicable hunk of steaming, stinking feces. Doom has no honor no matter what his fans or apologists claim to the contrary. His cowardly sneak attack on the Black Panther is proof of that. Notice that even outnumbered and outgunned, two of the beautiful and deadly Dora Milaje foiled his assassination attempt against T'Challa; one of them actually put Doom's ass on the ground.

Ture, you and I know that at his fighting best, T'Challa wouldn't need any upgrades to defeat Doom. T'Challa wouldn't need the assistance of his lovely wife, Ororo to defeat Doom. The hysterical horde which constitutes a significant number of the larger comicbook-reading demographic would be quick and vociferous in their objections, but substitute Captain America for T'Challa and remarkably, their tune would change. Those who wouldn't give a plug nickel for T'Challa's chances against Doom would be first to say that Cap could conceivably and believably defeat Doom in personal combat. But again, this is all a matter of "writer's choice" and "fanboy/fangal preference". The writers would choose to write a Doom defeat of T'Challa or a Captain America defeat of Doom based upon the fanboy/fangal preference.

In this case, I accept T'Challa's added abilities. I believe his physical strength has been enhanced and he now has the ability to resist energy/magic-based attacks. Many fanboys/gals defecated bricks when Hudlin dared to write the outcome of the Black Panther's WWII tussle with Captain America as big ol' W for the Black Panther. Oh, they claimed their only objection to the outcome was that it wasn't canon, but that was just so much cirumlocution. They were taking a roundabout course, using evasive tactics to say what they really wanted to say. When McDuffie had T'Challa sap Norrin Radd's Power Cosmic, do some cool maneuvering using space debris and the Surfer's own board to gain an advantage and then finally, lock an arm bar on the Surfer, that hysterical horde went ballistic with some verging on the psychotic. McDuffie had violated "writers choice; fanboy/gal preference" and the horde took umbrage.

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Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting!


SAY ON, Ture!
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 06, 2010, 11:07:15 am
Yes, most of the teams do.

It's good to see that although T'Challa is an Avenger no longer, his genius is still impacting on the team.

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I agree, I would kind of like to see T'Challa or atleast some Wakanda warriors fight , but I REALLY WORRIED how they would be written.
 

I see your point here. X-writers and X-geeks/freaks....now that was unkind of me, wasn't it?  ;)  X-fans, I'll call them X-fans...seem to harbor a visceral hostility toward the Black Panther and indeed, black mutants not named Storm. Look what's happened to Bishop. By excluding T'Challa from mutantkind's battle for survival, the X-writer can make it appear and the X-fan may more readily ass-ume that the Black Panther doesn't love Storm. If some X-writer did happen to include T'Challa in this battle, chances are excellent that T'Challa would be written poorly and X-fans would absolutely resent T'Challa's involvement. The Panther would be damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

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Hey Anole isn't that bad  :D

It could be that I am being too harsh on Anole based on his appearance and what little I know of the character. When I size Anole up against Synch and Nightcrawler, Anole doesn't just come off wanting; he comes off begging. Anole literally means lizard; his powers are based on the chameleon. Features and abilities of his mutation include: reptilian skin and a spiked "cap" on his head. Anole has the ability to change color (as does Darwin), has the ability to regenerate lost limbs (very similar to Wolverine and X-23, I'd suspect); those regenerated limbs are stronger than the previous limb, but less physically attractive. Anole has wallcrawling abilities (as did Nightcrawler) Anole has the ability to camoflague himself; Nightcrawler was able to blend into shadows and become near invisible under ideal conditions. Like the chameleon from which Anole derives his name and powers, he has a prehensile, sticky tongue. What possible superhero-related endeavor would having a prehensile, sticky tongue be an advantage? I think we all remember or have some idea of what Synch and Nightcrawler could do and how cool they were in doing it. It's very possible that Anole isn't as bad a character as I initially believed him to be, but Anole is no Nightcrawler either. By the way, has Synch been resurrected recently?

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Also they killed Kurt because he's a popluar character/with a some what big fan base, also  for shock valuebecause maybe some of head ppl. the x-office thought mean somthing, but I'd be shocked if he not back 1 or 2 years..


I'm sure you're right. Superman "died", but wait!.... Batman "died", but wait!.... Captain America "died", but wait!.... These dynamic, dramatic "deaths" have become so gimmicky these days, the event has lots any punch. When John Byrne killed off Vindicator of Alpha Flight, I couldn't believe it. I thought he was nuts and I hated the move. When Jim MacDonald Hudson was inevitably resurrected, he wasn't the same character. These "deaths" are ruinous to solid characters and to the titles they are appear in.

 
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....Synch was  kind of recently brought in Necrosha.. They story was left open so he could have survived.. It really up to the next writer to decided if he and alot of other formerly dead mutants did or not. (they were brought back as transmode virus & were being controlled by the main villain of the story Selene.) 


Hey! This answers my earlier question. Great news, and if indeed Synch has returned, I would actually buy the X-book in which his resurrection is official and confirmed. I'm unsure of Prodigy's status, but I think with Synch's status unclear at the moment and Tyrone Johnson being classified as non-mutant, there are no U.S. black male mutants represented in Marvel's X-franchise. Synch needs to return.

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I agree & my picks for her new id are Caracal or Serval(both African cats)

I like those ideas! Both choices make more sense than did Kasper Cole's "White Tiger" or even Lee/Kirby's original notion of naming T'Challa the "Coal Tiger" before settling on Black Panther. I once had a lengthy exchange with Yoda (or Loren) about this White Tiger business. The tiger is a EuroAsiatic cat usually found in India, China, and Siberia these days. I kept repeating this over and over: "There are no tigers in Africa. There aren't any African wolves either unless you're talking the Denali wolf found in Ethiopia, and that animal more closely resembles a coyote than a European or North American wolf." I was pleased to see that in Black Panther: Flags Of Our Fathers, the English "Howler" agreed with me.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on May 06, 2010, 11:48:05 am
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.

The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 06, 2010, 12:19:03 pm
I agree, but I'm don't think a ongoing with just them would do to tell in this current comic market.. It probably be best to make it a team book add 1 or 2 more popluar characters that would fit that setting..


You're right. Limited series runs would likely be better for Cloak and Dagger and - as I often said while posting at "the other place" - the duo should make a stop over in Wakanda --- when things get better that is. Storm has sort of a "big sister" effect on younger mutants, male and female. Storm used to call Colossus "Little Brother". Kitty Pryde attached herself to Storm in a sisterly way and Rogue seemed to develop some sort of kinship with Ororo as well. I think Dagger - who seems to crave a significant friendship outside the partnership she has with Cloak - would benefit from a friendship with Queen Ororo. What really intrigues me about a Cloak/Dagger/Wakanda connection is a possible interaction between Cloak and Zawavari.

Zawavari is possibly the only human being who could spend a significant period of time inside Cloak's pocket dimension without losing his mind. Here's what Zawavari had to say to Aneka when she compared Zawavari's magic to "unholy darkness": "Darkness? What do you know of darkness? I've walked through nightmare lands that would tear the sanity from you. I've squatted in caves in the bowels of the earth to palaver with eyeless toad-things. I've sacrificed my own blood so that I could listen to the faintest whispers of the elder gods."

Zawavari looks to me as if he could be of great help to Cloak in helping him gain greater understanding and control over the predator who lurks in that pocket dimension.

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Very true.. I wonder that how Mercedes & Daniel got that baby they now have one the way.. (Also he proposed & she accepted.. I think he did before she told him that she was pregnant)..


Iron Fist and Misty Knight following in the footsteps of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones; sex, baby, marriage proposal, marriage, in that order. Are comicbooks for kids anymore? Of course not  :)

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Also Remy & Ororo kissing as very baly written moment that didn't make sense to & glad it still being ignored like alot of other stuff from x-treme x-men...


It appears to me that during that period, Storm was written as if she had a wild streak and something about her that seemed to suggest she had written on her forehead, "If you're a male - red, white, blue, green, fuzzy, terran or extraterrestrial - or if you're a female who likes to walk on the wild side (tentacles not a problem), I'm easy and available." The best thing that happened to Ororo was her becoming the co-star of the Black Panther comicbook.

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Very true, I Think the closer they got was here :

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11768/921784-uncx514_int_15_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/uncx514_int_15/105-921784/[/url])


 :) They just can't seem to bring themselves to allow these two characters' lips to make physical contact, can they?  ;)

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Also I they finally let Patriot & Kate Bishop kiss, but I'm petty sure she & Speed kissed 1sted..


Oh, you know they likely had Kate kiss Speed first. Speed had to get his kiss before Kate was "tainted". I don't follow the Avengers at all. I came by this knowledge through lurking at the Avenger's forum at "that other place". I saw the "kiss" between Patriot and Kate. Now, when a white superhero kisses a femme fatale, the female's response is usually a swoon which is often by a scene where the white superhero and the female are engaging in pillowtalk following a vigorous session of superhero sexual activity. Now look what Kate did to Patriot after he kissed her  :D "Writer's choice; reader's preference".

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Also Cage & Jewel still kiss sometimes & she being drawn less homely looking lately imo..  ;D Also he going to be leading/running the Thunderbolts & been hinted to leading a Avengers team..


They're easing up on Jessica are they? Artists usually draw Mrs. Cage as if someone knocked her upside the head with a sledgehammer. They're spreading Luke all over the place it looks like. Who does Luke think he is, Deadpool? Wolverine?  

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There have been like 2 or 3 Darkstars created recently some I wouldn't be shocked if one of the was his sister or cousin or aunt or etc


I think some writers are trying to write Cloak as if he is Marvel's version of the Spectre. If I've got this right, Jim Corrigan and subsequent Spectres are a vessel for a demonic being who is striving to become a holy being. This being inhabits the green cloak worn by the Spectres and facilitates their miraculous feats of vengeance. Cloak is different from the Spectre. Tyrone had become shadow before he even discovered the material which would become his cloak of darkness. He used that discarded material cover himself and conceal the shadowman he had become. Tyrone is as much his power as Tandy is hers. However, some writers have tried to make the cloak of darkness the show, not Tyrone. They seemed to retcon The Mutant Misadventures Of Cloak And Dagger out of continuity. I hope they retconned that goofy old man who once wore Cloak's cape as an "opera cape" when he was "the portal", out of existence. If anyone should be able to help Cloak better understand the Dark Dimension, especially the pocket dimension, it should be Zawavari of Wakanda.

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Yeah, they are still consider mutants & both have been popping up alot lately.. Nekra has a daughter now (the father is Grim Reaper) name  Death Reaper.


So Nekra is still living and she managed to have a child by the racist Grim Reaper? Marvel Comics will make a hook up between a black female character (or character of color) and any kind of white male character that comes to mind. It doesn't matter if the male character is a blue bigfoot, has the appearance of a dead baby bird a hungry cat bother to eat, is a white racist, or happens to be some guy she met only minutes earlier. Cloak and Dagger have been a team for nearly 30 years. Cloak has barely gotten a sniff from Dagger what Hank (blue bigfoot) McCoy got from Celia Reyes, what Danny Rand got from Misty Knight, what the racist Grim Reaper apparently got from Nekra, the queen of hate who apparently forgot to hate when it came to getting it on with a white racist. A Russian can nail a Wakandan female - a native of a land notorious for their xenophobic beliefs - impregnate her with a baby she later rejects as an outworlder, but Patriot kisses Kate Bishop and almost gets himself pushed out of the Avengers comicbook. "Writer's choice; fan's preference"  ;)

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Also every time I see Mandrill & Nekra I can't help but thinking  it crazy there concept of actually got published.. Ok black child come out white & with anger/rage  power (ok not horrible but not great) & white boesn't come black, but come out looking like a monkey & has rape powers (Really Marvel Really??)


I'm not surprised. Marvel also published the story about Ms Marvel's rape by Immortus' son, Marcus and most disgusting to me, the rape of T'Challa's mother, Ramonda, by white racist, supremacist Anton Pretorious. Maybe that sort of thing will stop now that Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are in charge.


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Thats good question about the toilet lol :D.. , but do they need to eat? I wonder can they just live off there dark & light energies. And I remember read that idea of yours on cbr..  


In their earliest adventures, Tandy needed to eat as her powers left her essentially, a normal human being. Tyrone on the other hand, had been nearly consumed by the Dark Dimension and had become something other than human. Tyrone didn't need to eat or sleep. These days, with Tyrone being able to assume human form and live a normal human existence, I'm sure they both have to eat and eventually, do the #1 and #2  :D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 06, 2010, 02:22:05 pm

It's good to see that although T'Challa is an Avenger no longer, his genius is still impacting on the team.


I agree, hopefully when/if he joins again it will get mention more often, but atleast he be in the main cast of the new Avenger cartoon..

I see your point here. X-writers and X-geeks/freaks....now that was unkind of me, wasn't it?  ;)  X-fans, I'll call them X-fans...seem to harbor a visceral hostility toward the Black Panther and indeed, black mutants not named Storm. Look what's happened to Bishop. By excluding T'Challa from mutantkind's battle for survival, the X-writer can make it appear and the X-fan may more readily ass-ume that the Black Panther doesn't love Storm. If some X-writer did happen to include T'Challa in this battle, chances are excellent that T'Challa would be written poorly and X-fans would absolutely resent T'Challa's involvement. The Panther would be damned if he did, damned if he didn't. 


Very true.. only solution would be find a writer that understand/get all the characters involved or to co write with with a writer who understand BP, Wakanda & one who understand the X-Men...


It could be that I am being too harsh on Anole based on his appearance and what little I know of the character. When I size Anole up against Synch and Nightcrawler, Anole doesn't just come off wanting; he comes off begging. Anole literally means lizard; his powers are based on the chameleon. Features and abilities of his mutation include: reptilian skin and a spiked "cap" on his head. Anole has the ability to change color (as does Darwin), has the ability to regenerate lost limbs (very similar to Wolverine and X-23, I'd suspect); those regenerated limbs are stronger than the previous limb, but less physically attractive. Anole has wallcrawling abilities (as did Nightcrawler) Anole has the ability to camoflague himself; Nightcrawler was able to blend into shadows and become near invisible under ideal conditions. Like the chameleon from which Anole derives his name and powers, he has a prehensile, sticky tongue. What possible superhero-related endeavor would having a prehensile, sticky tongue be an advantage? I think we all remember or have some idea of what Synch and Nightcrawler could do and how cool they were in doing it. It's very possible that Anole isn't as bad a character as I initially believed him to be, but Anole is no Nightcrawler either. By the way, has Synch been resurrected recently?


Yeah those are basically his powers, before m-day he was the leader of his squad Alpha Squadron, he also one of the few gay characters imo that not written like a stereotype/stereotypical way (I don't even notice he was until I read NM vol.2 & New X-Men for the 2nd time),  As for his tongue I remember him using it in battle once in New X-Men & once in Young X-Men. In New Mutants vol.2 I vaguely remember him using it to play sports (I think he caught a frisbee & football with it & maybe using it to play basketball once) when the kids there hang out. Plus it looks cool..  8)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5648/339360-65902-anole_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/65902-anole/105-339360/)

But I agree Synch and Nightcrawler were/are cooler than him.. When Nightcrawler come back I hope they address his parentage again..I think it would be interesting/cool  if they made him Kestrel/John Wraith son like in the fox x-movies/video game verse (It one of the un sucke things that happen in the fox movie/video game verse ). 

Hey! This answers my earlier question. Great news, and if indeed Synch has returned, I would actually buy the X-book in which his resurrection is official and confirmed. I'm unsure of Prodigy's status, but I think with Synch's status unclear at the moment and Tyrone Johnson being classified as non-mutant, there are no U.S. black male mutants represented in Marvel's X-franchise. Synch needs to return.


Yeah he some what back.. Selene had Eli Bard resurrect & some what completely control (they were trying to fight our of her control) alot dead former X-Men (he was one the one that was) so that they could battle with & distract X-Men while she had resurrect all 16 million mutants who died on Genosha that died.. Her goal sacrifice/eat their souls so she could become all powerfully/immortal, but she didn't get all the souls she need so she didn't become immortal so Warpath was able to do it defeat/kill her. All  to most of the mutants that were on Genosha souls were taking by her, but not not all the all the dead x-men/mutants that were fighting the X-Men on Utopia were. So he could one of the one who souls wasn't taken by her.  Then they would just need to take the transmode virus  out of his system/body just like they did Doug Ramsey & he would be good as new/maybe even better..   

I like those ideas! Both choices make more sense than did Kasper Cole's "White Tiger" or even Lee/Kirby's original notion of naming T'Challa the "Coal Tiger" before settling on Black Panther. I once had a lengthy exchange with Yoda (or Loren) about this White Tiger business. The tiger is a EuroAsiatic cat usually found in India, China, and Siberia these days. I kept repeating this over and over: "There are no tigers in Africa. There aren't any African wolves either unless you're talking the Denali wolf found in Ethiopia, and that animal more closely resembles a coyote than a European or North American wolf." I was pleased to see that in Black Panther: Flags Of Our Fathers, the English "Howler" agreed with me.


Glad that you do & I agree.. that is one of my main prob. with Kasper (beside he should have never became BP in the 1st.. At a minimum you should atleast be 15-25 % Wakandan/have Wakandan blood to be the BP.. ) I don't mind him calling himself the White Tiger (I think Kasper is a better/cool name than it), but also long as it has nothing to do with Wakanda because doesn't make sense in story.. But even worse was the Gold Lion.. it doesn't make sense at all for there to be Gold Lion in the Panther Cult with there is a Lion Cult in Wakanda & that Lion Cult/Lion God has been shown to dislike/attack T'Challa & hate the Panther Cult. the Gold Lion should be the Lion Cult version of the Black Panther.. An the Crocodile Cult should have the Green Crocodie or something like that..

As for the wolf /White wolf.. The African Wild Dog is the closest thing in Africa that called & or name wolf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Wild_Dog   

African Wild Dog is also called the Painted Wolf, Painted Dog, African Hunting Dog & few other names..

Aslo the English/British Howler/Howling Command is Percival ''Percy'' Pinkerton..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 06, 2010, 09:42:47 pm
You're right. Limited series runs would likely be better for Cloak and Dagger and - as I often said while posting at "the other place" - the duo should make a stop over in Wakanda --- when things get better that is. Storm has sort of a "big sister" effect on younger mutants, male and female. Storm used to call Colossus "Little Brother". Kitty Pryde attached herself to Storm in a sisterly way and Rogue seemed to develop some sort of kinship with Ororo as well. I think Dagger - who seems to crave a significant friendship outside the partnership she has with Cloak - would benefit from a friendship with Queen Ororo. What really intrigues me about a Cloak/Dagger/Wakanda connection is a possible interaction between Cloak and Zawavari.


Thanks, The only way I think that type of book would work as an ongoing is if it was Called Marvel Knights or Spider-Man & the Marvel Knights as a team book..

Main team : Spider Man, Cloak, Dagger, Falcon, Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Shang-Chi & Cage

Support team/cast : Mercedes Knight (in a Oracle type role because of the baby on the way), Maria Vasqeuz (conflicted hero & Shang-Chi love interest), Carmilla Black/Scorpion (doesn't join the team but meet them & team up), Kasper Cole (with new powers) {trying to join so maybe he make his way to big money aka the Avengers} Leila Taylor & Alisande Morales (Falcon love interests)..
 
Zawavari is possibly the only human being who could spend a significant period of time inside Cloak's pocket dimension without losing his mind. Here's what Zawavari had to say to Aneka when she compared Zawavari's magic to "unholy darkness": "Darkness? What do you know of darkness? I've walked through nightmare lands that would tear the sanity from you. I've squatted in caves in the bowels of the earth to palaver with eyeless toad-things. I've sacrificed my own blood so that I could listen to the faintest whispers of the elder gods."

Zawavari looks to me as if he could be of great help to Cloak in helping him gain greater understanding and control over the predator who lurks in that pocket dimension.


Good points.. It would be very intresting to see how Zawavari was react to being in Ty pocket dimension..

Iron Fist and Misty Knight following in the footsteps of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones; sex, baby, marriage proposal, marriage, in that order. Are comicbooks for kids anymore? Of course not  :)


Well kind of it was more like this 1. sex 2A & 2B marriage proposal & I'm pregnant btw.. Sense Iron Fist has been canceled the plot hasn't been followed up on. So they could ger married by the baby comes or before she even start to show.. Yeah there mostly for us 20 & 20 plus years old now, but some for made more for kids also..  ;D 

:) They just can't seem to bring themselves to allow these two characters' lips to make physical contact, can they?  ;)


That they can't lol

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/581768-cloak___dagger_joe_phillips_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cloak___dagger_joe_phillips/105-581768/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5599/147022-180411-dagger_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/180411-dagger/105-147022/)

Oh, you know they likely had Kate kiss Speed first. Speed had to get his kiss before Kate was "tainted". I don't follow the Avengers at all. I came by this knowledge through lurking at the Avenger's forum at "that other place". I saw the "kiss" between Patriot and Kate. Now, when a white superhero kisses a femme fatale, the female's response is usually a swoon which is often by a scene where the white superhero and the female are engaging in pillowtalk following a vigorous session of superhero sexual activity. Now look what Kate did to Patriot after he kissed her  :D "Writer's choice; reader's preference".


If I remember correctly I think she plugged away or something like that.. But at the end of the issue I remember her saying a hell of a kiss to Eli or something like that..

They're easing up on Jessica are they? Artists usually draw Mrs. Cage as if someone knocked her upside the head with a sledgehammer. They're spreading Luke all over the place it looks like. Who does Luke think he is, Deadpool? Wolverine?


Lol very true,  but yeah she been looking alto better lately.. Also why did you stop reading the Avengers books?

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219520-jewel_drinkn_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/jewel_drinkn/105-1219520/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219776-jess_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/jess/105-1219776/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219763-cage_ask_qs_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cage_ask_qs/105-1219763/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219517-i_wish_ur_momz_2_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/i_wish_ur_momz_2/105-1219517/)


(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/15776/1063188-chicks_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/chicks/105-1063188/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219873-cage_fam8_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cage_fam8/105-1219873/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219832-i_tell_u_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/i_tell_u/105-1219832/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219878-cage_fam7_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cage_fam7/105-1219878/)

 (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/242875-67970-jessica-jones_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/67970-jessica-jones/105-242875/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219555-cage_jewel___stange_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cage_jewel___stange/105-1219555/)


(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1219844-jewel_cage_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/jewel_cage/105-1219844/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33806/964510-80_new_avengers_annual_3_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/80_new_avengers_annual_3/105-964510/)

Much better right?

I think some writers are trying to write Cloak as if he is Marvel's version of the Spectre. If I've got this right, Jim Corrigan and subsequent Spectres are a vessel for a demonic being who is striving to become a holy being. This being inhabits the green cloak worn by the Spectres and facilitates their miraculous feats of vengeance. Cloak is different from the Spectre. Tyrone had become shadow before he even discovered the material which would become his cloak of darkness. He used that discarded material cover himself and conceal the shadowman he had become. Tyrone is as much his power as Tandy is hers. However, some writers have tried to make the cloak of darkness the show, not Tyrone. They seemed to retcon The Mutant Misadventures Of Cloak And Dagger out of continuity. I hope they retconned that goofy old man who once wore Cloak's cape as an "opera cape" when he was "the portal", out of existence. If anyone should be able to help Cloak better understand the Dark Dimension, especially the pocket dimension, it should be Zawavari of Wakanda.


I agree..

So Nekra is still living and she managed to have a child by the racist Grim Reaper? Marvel Comics will make a hook up between a black female character (or character of color) and any kind of white male character that comes to mind. It doesn't matter if the male character is a blue bigfoot, has the appearance of a dead baby bird a hungry cat bother to eat, is a white racist, or happens to be some guy she met only minutes earlier. Cloak and Dagger have been a team for nearly 30 years. Cloak has barely gotten a sniff from Dagger what Hank (blue bigfoot) McCoy got from Celia Reyes, what Danny Rand got from Misty Knight, what the racist Grim Reaper apparently got from Nekra, the queen of hate who apparently forgot to hate when it came to getting it on with a white racist. A Russian can nail a Wakandan female - a native of a land notorious for their xenophobic beliefs - impregnate her with a baby she later rejects as an outworlder, but Patriot kisses Kate Bishop and almost gets himself pushed out of the Avengers comicbook. "Writer's choice; fan's preference"  ;)


Yeah see even crying/has a break down when think he dies (he doesn't really die he fake his death with the help of Norman Osborn & betrayed teammates (The New Lethal Legion) which includes Nekra & his brother Wonder Man).. His team goes up against Norman loses & then get put in jail.. He leaves they there after he double cross them & to establish a base of operations on foreign soil for Norman...  Alot of strange thing happen in marvel comics lol..

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11352/907539-dr_ll_2_peterwatts_dcp_034_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dr_ll_2_peterwatts_dcp_034/105-907539/)

Nez parentage is interesting to say the least.. unless raped her something it really doesn't make sense for her to dislike Nez so much.. Some one needs to fill in the plot holes/details.. While on the topic of rape it was Kate B. was either sexually assaulted & maybe even raped. They haven't said to what degree she was sexually assaulted yet..

Yeah I to didn't care to much for Angel Salvadore & Beak getting together or them naming there kids after Jackson either..
But atleast he looks better sense he was depowered.. :

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/229121-173696-blackwing_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/173696-blackwing/105-229121/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/236245-59765-blackwing_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/59765-blackwing/105-236245/)

I'm not surprised. Marvel also published the story about Ms Marvel's rape by Immortus' son, Marcus and most disgusting to me, the rape of T'Challa's mother, Ramonda, by white racist, supremacist Anton Pretorious. Maybe that sort of thing will stop now that Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are in charge.


Maybe but I don't they (Disney) will change much.. The most I think they'll do is maybe a placing some comic in some Disney stores, putting ads on tv about marvel heroes or buying comics & maybe getting the movies rights back from fox & sony..

In their earliest adventures, Tandy needed to eat as her powers left her essentially, a normal human being. Tyrone on the other hand, had been nearly consumed by the Dark Dimension and had become something other than human. Tyrone didn't need to eat or sleep. These days, with Tyrone being able to assume human form and live a normal human existence, I'm sure they both have to eat and eventually, do the #1 and #2  :D


Interesting lol..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 06, 2010, 09:45:37 pm
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 07, 2010, 09:25:46 am
Glad we agree 4sake and like you I ask the ways and means to T'challa's Jediship.

Sinjection1 your last two posts only confirm my earlier statements of you. Like you and Seven I am not against upgrades. I stated previously that the upgrades Priest gave T'challa were appropriate because they were constructed to fit the needs of the character not a plot device for a particular story.

The upgrades from the Power arc have all the feel of filler. An empty insertion that lacks any true cohesion. T'challa is human potential reached. Don't sleep on human potential. All one has to do is take a cursory examination of the martial arts film genre. What the "masters" of meditation, training and spiritual development are able to obtain is nothing short of comparable to what superheroes are capable of doing. If T'challa's intellect, skills, tech and resources were focused on there would be little need for an upgrade. Batman (under the writer who comprehends who and what he is) is an excellent example.

A superhero needs upgrades when his powers have proved to be insubstantial. T'challa being taken out by Doom in Deadliest of the Species was circumstantial. As proof of such notice the absence of T'challa's  preparedness and counter measures. I think this is something Maberry has yet to address. It is not that he needed new powers, it is that the resources T'challa has at his disposal were not utilized. The upgrades T'challa acquired in the Power arc have proved to be thus far superfluous. Why? Because what Doom used to take out T'challa had nothing to do with strength or magic id est the upgrades. Lack of creative utilization of a characters powers is almost a hallmark in some comics. Superman (under the writer who does not comprehends who and what he is) is an excellent example.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on May 07, 2010, 11:22:52 am
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?

The only reason I am for the Upgrade is to shut up people from doubting everyting T'challa does...with "he should not be able to do that" nonsense. it talks away from the great things he has done, with total focus on what he can't and should not be able to do. He always viewed with limitations.

I just think that a jedi/Bene Gesserit is the best.

Look up Bene Gesserit. You will get a idea of there powers. It's nothing drastic...they just seem like witches, because they do things that make you go wtf.

T'challa has always been sort of Jedi like, without the telekinetic powers. But writers simply ignored it...his powers were suppose to be based on his will and spirit.  So like a Jedi he should be able to sense things, and also when he wants in small burst move very fast.

But the best upgrade would simply be Bene Gesserit-like.

Other Memory (being able to take knowledge from other BP)
The Voice
Petit perception
Truthsaying
Simulflow
Prana-bindu training and the weirding way (fighting style, speed, strength and agility)
Internal organic-chemical control
Sexual talents

etc...etc...something like this...

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 07, 2010, 11:34:37 am
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.

Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.


My brother and keeper of knowledge,keen observer and Paragon of penetrating intellect...I bow to your more informed suggestions in this arena.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 07, 2010, 01:01:13 pm
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

This entire post is yet another example of sinjection's piercing intellect,his sure suasion borne from his lucid logic...and I completely respect this perspective that he offers here.Now my response here is sooo thoroughly subjective,that many who don't agree with me or see where I'm coming from could be and I think should be forgiven,but I think that any practicing martial artist--including the Hall of Fame inductee author of DOOMWAR,our very own JM--will feel me on this.

I was teaching clients of my ATACX GYM shortly after my post to sinjection detailing portions of the reasons why I have no problem with DOOM handily winning the early rounds in his confrontation with TCHALLA,WAKANDA and the assembled heroes at large,when in walks this crew of bruthas including in their number an impressively muscled brutha about 6'4" and 255 pounds of solid,striated sinew.He exuded that deep confidence and alpha-alpha male aura of the proven,experienced,skilled combatant and predator.I peeped him out of the corner of my eye as his boi from his crew (a young dude in his late 20's of similar height but only about 215 pounds,and whom I'd had occassion to physically remonstrate with regarding using excessive force when sparring with a comparatively new FEMALE client of mine literally 100 pounds lighter and 8 inches shorter after warning him FIVE TIMES regarding that behaviour with other clients of mine in the space of a week,then finally expelling him from my gym and returning his money to him) pointed me out.This NFL linebacker type brutha nodded once,observed me teach my client the shoulder roll off of the jab,then moved directly toward me when I finished.

As I turned to face him,he asked me only one question:"Did you kick (I'M DELIBERATELY NOT USING THE NAME OF THE BRUTHA WHOM I EXPELLED OUT OF MY GYM FOR LIABILITY REASONS,NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A SPECIAL CONCERN FOR PROTECTING HIS ANONYMITY) out of here?"

"Yes..." was all I had time to say before he bull rushed me with a double leg.I sprawled and helicoptered (the spin you use to go directly to your opponent's back from a sprawl without touching your feet on the ground.It's much faster than the regular method of spinning to your opponent's back).This huge brutha spun beneath me like a sabertooth tiger and somehow prevented me from getting his back,while seizing me with huge strength and literally throwing me away like he was doing a chest pass with a medicine ball.I snapped a back tuck mid-air,landed on my feet and we went at it hard and fast.Bare knuckle.No protective equipment.Old skool style.

Even at age 40--yes I'm 40--I usually enjoy a significant quickness and speed advantage over most people.I can still pull off a nearly 2 minute 800 meter and a sub 4.5 40 meter sprint.I can both bench press double my bodyweight and squat quadruple my bodyweight for reps,and I almost never lift steel.This kid was 10 years my junior and 100 pounds heavier,plus 7-8 inches taller.Par for the course for me,I've beaten guys like this mucho times.Nothing new there.What WAS new was when this dude smoothly transformed a shotgun jab he fired and which I barely eluded into a rolling downward backfist which cracked me just under my left ear and across my carotid.Another new thing was how he transformed his backfist into a neck tie and slammed a knee into my chest that--even though I barely blocked it--was delivered with such explosive power that it literally knocked me backwards off of my feet and snatched me out of his own grip.This guy was every bit as quick as I am,and that was every bit as disconcerting as seeing that this guy had a strong traditional martial arts background that covered the easily exploitable holes that most guys with MMA training--which he also had--leave wide open and which I'm used to exploiting.While I was enjoying the pain shooting down my neck from his backfist and the shortness of breath and fiery pain caused by his knee,he removed all doubt about his traditional martial arts background by firing a wicked knife kick at my groin which I barely managed to avoid,which set me up for a cold Muay Thai shin kick to the body which I also parried but which delivered alot of trauma to my conditioned forearms and shin which blocked the kick.I barely slipped the following cross and literally had to leap away in a dive roll to avoid being caught by his same-side knee/spinning elbow combination.I came back with a feint-sidekick to his knee which he dismissively blocked MT style,followed with a back kick that he not only waved away but nearly caught me in a standing achilles lock for even trying,I jumped over his attempt to shin kick my standing leg while running me backwards toward the gym wall and disengaged his hold on my foot with a kenpo technique called Breaking the Fetters and his answering hook missed ripping my head off by a quarter second.I'd angled myself to take advantage of the momentum he built up while running me toward the wall to either avoid the wall entirely or use the rebound to my advantage but he read me perfectly and stopped my attempted diagonal escape with another beautiful shin kick which I mostly parried but which still opened up my forehead.I took that momentum and the slamming energy of me against the wall to execute a double role from capoeira and a dive roll to put space between he and I but he was all over me with knees fists and elbows.I parried slipped eluded and countered with a ridgehand to the groin but he totally stopped that and countered with a handsword to my neck which I eluded.I served a left to his muscled stomach which scored,he countered with a overhand right which grazed me,I tried to toss him with a judo knee wheel and he wasn't having ANY of that PLUS he nearly tripped me with a foot sweep which I evaded,then he took me down with a left leg inside trip on my left leg.I countered immediately with a judo tomonage and thought I was going to take advantage and finish him but he executed a beautiful breakfall and rolled smoothly to his feet in a fighting stance,and immediately began moving in on me again.I started using my trademark elusive footwork but this guy was looking waaay too comfy tracking me down.He looked like a sabertooth on skates,huge powerful fluid quick smooth and predatory and I knew I was in trouble.

For the first time in my life,I'd been confronted by someone who was stronger,longer,just as quick or quicker,just as technically sound,possessed of just as deep of a combat arsenal,just as impressive with his conditioning so he could fight as long or longer than I can,just as coordinated,and mentally just as strong.I had ZERO of the traditional advantages that I usually used to quickly and decisively resolve matters in my own favor.After 34 years of martial arts training to overcome whatever obstacle,I was realizing under fire that I'd grown complacent with the physical,technical and mental advantages which I'd used time and time again to overcome my adversaries whatever their size and number...and I was facing that unpleasant sensation that comes to us when we're not only uncertain but deeply concerned that failure will have the worst possible consequences for us.

You know how I beat him? During another scramble during which we exchanged sidekicks,knees,heel hook kicks,punches,forearm smashes,elbows,and during which he blocked my 5 Swords (probably the trademark technique of my base punching and kicking art,Kenpo Karate) not only once but TWICE (again something which has never happened),this dude pulled off a jab,used a crescent kick to my lead left foot to almost sweep me,feinted a single leg and pulled off a Jon Bones Jones like spinning elbow which would have taken my whole head off had I not used my ginga to slide right under him while simultaneously slipping the elbow.I spit right in his face,then--off of a totally spontaneous movement borne from the fact that this dude had literally backed me into a corner blocking my escape--I used a Parkour style bounce off of the wall combined with Kenpo's Parting Wings to launch myself literally head first ( la cabeca in capoeira) like a human spear into his wide open face while his eyes were closed by my spit.This cracked his nose wide open and allowed me to roll passed him as his spine bent back like he was doing the Limbo under a bar.I finished his with a sidekick to the base of his spine and a full powered,full contact spin kick to his temple.He hit the ground out cold.

I calmly looked at the brutha whom I'd expelled,and told him he'd better get this dude I just beat as well as himself out of my gym right now because I'm calling the police.I put my cellie on loud speaker and let him hear the 911 operator answer the phone for effect to emphasize my point.Those guys evaporated before the police arrived,but I gave them every bit of info that I had on them including the make and color of the car they were driving,and every name that I knew pertaining to them.I also immediately moved my training location for the next 2 weeks.

What does this have to do with DOOMWAR? Simply EVERYTHING.

TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.

Until now.

DOOM has changed things forever,and in so doing has changed Wakanda and The Black Panthers forever.Could Uncle S'yan have served that ONE DESTURI GUARD who brought him into the Vibranium room with DOOM? Yep.No question.But could our favorite redoubtable Uncle overcome DOOM,who was doubtless waiting and prepped for just such a heroic gesture from the man from whom TCHALLA wrested the Black Panther mantle? ABSOLUTELY NOT.Was our favorite Uncle aware of these factors? ABSOLUTELY. So why would our Uncle consent to be in that room with DOOM? Because he knew that his presence would provide options for Storm and Ramonda that they absolutely didn't have without him.Was our Uncle right? ABSOLUTELY.He saved RAMONDA'S life when nobody else could.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: supreme illuminati on May 07, 2010, 01:53:40 pm
continuing my previous post...

Doom's pursuit of the Vibranium also opened his soul up to Baast,as this was the only way to pass TCHALLA's brilliantly fashioned final lock,and which could and almost certainly will have incredibly far reaching consequences in the future (who knows what TCHALLA may learn regarding DOOM in the future when he palavers with TPG yet again?)...as Doom revealed the oft-neglected noble antihero aspect of his character,in the same vein that Magneto is also a very complicated character who certainly doesn't see himself as villainous nor Charles Xavier as heroic.I think that this is GOOD for BOTH DOOM AND TCHALLA,because in appreciating and savoring this re-introduced aspect of Doom's being we can no longer assign DOOM to the convenient role of pure villainy.DOOM is not a JOKER or a GORGON,whom are both psychotic and irredeemably destructive...and TCHALLA shares a great deal in common with DOOM.This makes TCHALLA have to dig deeper,further,broader,longer and in newer ways in order to overcome DOOM...and so will everybody else.Because TCHALLA was pushed in ways that he never has been before,ways that will and must have permanent,far-reaching consequences for TCHALLA,THE ROYAL FAMILY and all of WAKANDA.

Regarding the EMPs that SHURI dropped on Wakanda? Trust and believe that they're special Vibranium tweaked TCHALLA designed mollywhoppers that were part and parcel of previously drawn up contingency plans,so they'd still be effective against even Wakandan defenses.Remember that TCHALLA told SCOTT that he personally designed much if not most of Wakanda's defenses,so there are still things that he can do that nobody else on Earth--ncluding DOOM--can do to Wakandan defenses.You know what else this means?In one stroke,J.MABERRY has reconciled a continuity conflict within the BP mythos: previously, TCHALLA was viewed as the sole designer and arbiter of hypertech for WAKANDA,a knowledge which he acquired after studying abroad in European universities.I always disliked that idea,and RH's idea that WAKANDA ITSELF WAS ALWAYS DA BOMB is MUUUCH MORE likely,and literally more in synch with history itself when you're seeking a noncondescending explanation for the fantastic existence of Wakanda.See,with RH saying that WAKANDA was the bizness and JM working that then having SHURI bomb WAKANDA back into the Dark Ages,what we have here is the opportunity to watch TCHALLA rebuild WAKANDA from the ground up...another indisputable example of his uberintellect equaling him with DOOM and REED,thus finally killing any argument of TCHALLA's position regarding him belonging in the Top 7 MU intellects (REED,DOOM,TONY,TCHALLA,BRUCE BANNER,HANK PYM,THE LEADER) and most especially in the Top Four (REED,TONY,DOOM,TCHALLA) big brains in MU.It should cement TCHALLA as in some areas second only to REED in pure IQ,and at least the equal of TONY and DOOM,if not superior to TONY and equal to DOOM in many areas with an advantage against DOOM in others.Combine this hyperintellect with his CA level or better h2h,strength,speed,agility,etc. and you have basically the premier MU example of the most balanced hero around.Kudos to RH and JM for that,seriously.Now TCHALLA has to be written more consistently along that vein WITH THE FEATS TO MAKE IT CONSISTENTLY UNTOUCHABLE CANON...

REGARDING THE UPGRADE OF TCHALLA...

Most of my opinion regarding that is in THE FIRST BP UPGRADE thread.I still staunchly believe that every component excepting the magic absorption of TCHALLA'S UPGRADE is FIRMLY within the realm of actual human real world performance and potential.1 ton bench press? Love it...except that the 1 ton bench is currently "merely" DOUBLE the current world record in the Bench Press.The Bene Gesserit idea was already largely made part of BP in the PRIEST run,and his hyperagility on par with or superior to that of THE BEAST's is canon.So is his hypersenses,being able to ferret out even astral forms,and beings IN THE MIDST OF TELEPORTING.I am absolutely in love with I believe VIC VEGA'S idea of LEVEL 2 SUPERHUMAN,that TCHALLA can do MANY THINGS AT ONCE AT A NEAR SUPERHUMAN-PEAK HUMAN ABILITY,and that THIS COMPREHENSIVE ABILITY ALONE IS SUPERHUMAN.I believe gthat he used the second and my favorite BATGIRL as an example,Jessica Cain.I think that TCHALLA is essentially a cross of CA,WOLVERINE,DOOM,BEAST,TONY STARKS (women love him) RAS AL-GHUL at his peak (which makes him better than BATMAN),with a taste of PROF X mindreading (ya know,from HAPPY PANTS PANTHER'S CLAIRVOYANT AND ESP POWER) which makes him utterly unique.I think that THIS TCHALLA is DA SHIZNIZZLE,and HAS NEVER BEEN WRITTEN.I think that JM and RH should've been given a chance to write him,and I think that it's HORRIBLE that they DIDN'T get such a chance...especially if you keep PRIEST'S BRAIN ANUERYSM.Even if it's just to find a way to eventually cure BP of it.I say again and again and again that PRIEST'S RUN being largely ignored is A GIGANTIC MISTAKE AND TRAVESTY which will bite BP in the ass unless it's not only fully incorporated but ingeniously dealt with,mined and explored while adding new stuff to TCHALLA.I think that a combo of RH,JM BP+DW,JASON AARON,EIRC JEROME DICKEY BP (yes I said it.Among other ill ideas,the idea that TCHAKA WAS NOT ENHANCED WHEN HE WHOOPED OFF ON STEVE AS CAPTAIN AMERICA IS VIIIITAL TO SECURING THE STRAIGHT UP ILLNESS OF BP,PLUS ESTABLISHING THE FACT THAT WAKANDANS LIVE LONGER THAN MOST HUMANS DUE TO THEIR HYPER MEDICAL SCIENCE AND HOLISTIC CULTURE,UNLESS THEY DIE IN WAR) and YOST'S WAP is THE REAL KEY TO MAKING BP PROFITABLE AND POPULAR TO THE OTHER FANBOYZ WHILE APPEALING TO THE NONCOMIC BOOK BUYING LARGER BOOK BUYING DEMOGRAPHIC.

I completely see where the idea that TCHALLA build a suit of magic enhanced/absorbing armor comes from,and like it too...except for two points:

1) RH already did that with THE THRICE BLESSED ARMOR
2) BP still couldn't stand ON HIS OWN in a h2h full on throwdown with DOOM because DOOM HIMSELF IS A SORCEROR.Yes,DOOM'S ARMOR enhances DOOM's mastery of magic in various ways,but DOOM HIMSELF IS A SORCEROR.That trumps TCHALLA's being a NONMAGIC WIELDER unless TCHALLA can PERSONALLY nuetralize DOOM's magic in a way that doesn't transgress on DOOM's specific uniqueness of character nor TCHALLA's uniqueness of character.The magic runes and absorbing magic is a very valid way to to go regarding that area.While we're on it? RH BP VOL. 1#19 showed that even DOOM knew that he couldn't overcome BP h2h or at least  that it was distinctly unwise to try,which is why he repeatedly refused BP's offer to climb out of his (DOOM'S) armor and scrap man to man.Furthermore the 2 handed frontal choke is a move borne more from crushing strength and massive arrogance than from martial skill,as the 2 handed frontal choke is child's play to disrupt when standing,even against very strong real world assailants.I broke this hold from a guy on PCP about 15 years ago.It's a hold that is especially vulnerable to speed,agility and technique...areas that BP that TCHALLA  reigns supreme in and has no nonsuperpowered/street fighter equal in the MU (as demonstrated by Jason Aaron yet again in the Invasion storyline).Recall my discussion with Jenn on this very topic shortly after RH BP VOL 1 #19 first came out? It birthed the YOUR BEST FIGHT THREAD,I believe...

My brothers Ture and sinjection,I think that TCHALLA being caught so thoroughly off guard is more than a little iffy myself,but I think that it simply underscores how hypercapable he truly is when he wins.Seriously.I remember suggesting years back that TCHALLA overcome WAKANDA...but I suggested that a BARON MACABRE AND SAY DOOM OR BARON MORDO (if he's alive) or SOME OTHER BAD MOJO MAJOR BAD GUY RESURRECTED TCHAKA take WAKANDA from TCHALLA as part of a plan and then TCHALLA and ORORO have to not only take WAKANDA back from the cabal but TCHALLA has to face and defeat in direct h2h combat TCHAKA.The consequences would be gigantic,and this idea predated THOR slaying his grandfather BY YEARS.We see how THOR killing BOR his grandfather impacted THOR...there's NO REASON for such a thing to not have a similar,Wakandan spun impact on TCHALLA.Remember how AFRO SAMURAI had to kill his father too? YEAH.I also think that TCHALLA WILL OPEN A CAN OF SMASHASSERY on DOOM,but I don't think it will result in anything like DOOM being maimed.It will be significant I'm sure...but it won't even be as severe as even Maberry planned,as I am given to understand that Maberry planned DW for 6 issues and it has been scaled back to 5.Not liking that,but I'll take what we can get.

I wish that each of the DW issues were DOUBLE SIZED.That way it'd cost more,sale more,and we'd STILL have the ORIGINAL story ideas that MABERRY had for DOOMWAR fully fleshed out...including subplots and whatnot.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on May 07, 2010, 02:25:15 pm
SI...when I talk about the Bene Gesserit I'm thinking about you. All those things are semi-mystical...but they come from training. Which is why I think it would be great for T'challa and the Black Panther's.

It gives them something, and most of those things we have seem something very similar cannonwise. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 07, 2010, 07:25:15 pm
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?

The only reason I am for the Upgrade is to shut up people from doubting everyting T'challa does...with "he should not be able to do that" nonsense. it talks away from the great things he has done, with total focus on what he can't and should not be able to do. He always viewed with limitations.

I just think that a jedi/Bene Gesserit is the best.

Look up Bene Gesserit. You will get a idea of there powers. It's nothing drastic...they just seem like witches, because they do things that make you go wtf.

T'challa has always been sort of Jedi like, without the telekinetic powers. But writers simply ignored it...his powers were suppose to be based on his will and spirit.  So like a Jedi he should be able to sense things, and also when he wants in small burst move very fast.

But the best upgrade would simply be Bene Gesserit-like.

Other Memory (being able to take knowledge from other BP)
The Voice
Petit perception
Truthsaying
Simulflow
Prana-bindu training and the weirding way (fighting style, speed, strength and agility)
Internal organic-chemical control
Sexual talents

etc...etc...something like this...

Interesting. I never look at it like that before.. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: The Cat on May 07, 2010, 07:52:31 pm
Excellent thread, with a lot of insightful comments...  :)

Like a lot of you, I have had a few misgivings regarding the direction of the book. In the past we mused about the loss of "connect" which Hudlin gave us with his knowledge of the black/African experience. And we wondered if that vital element will still remain once the book fell into someone else hands. My first warning signs (and there has been quite a few) was the Wakandans using the word "sweet" in exclamation while in battle. And T'challa describing people as Savages. Something I have never heard any continental African express ( they like to use other words from there own traditions  ;) ). And I would never expect it from the fictional Wakandans. A culture which stretches back to Kemet (Ta-Merry) itself. A culture older than Europe, using the same cultural expressions of racist Europeans... I don't think so. I know theses are small details. but it's something that stops me from truely enjoying the storytelling experience... And that is of a futuristic African nation in the Marvel Universe.

I will say that I have enjoyed Doomwar so far, but it has dawned on me that it is a narrative that focuses on Doom and Doom ONLY! And T'challa is a secondary character in it. Hopefully in the next few issues I'll start to see a glimspe of the genius intellect that T'challa possesses, as well as some great tactical awareness which not only takes Doom by surprise. but cause him to have to raise his game somewhat. (Something you expect when you play chess... a game for two players) I know that if this whole series ends with a one page T'challa victory, that it will not be fittting considering the trials and tribulations that Doom has put him through.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 08, 2010, 04:25:29 am
<<CAT:  My first warning signs (and there has been quite a few) was the Wakandans using the word "sweet" in exclamation while in battle. And T'challa describing people as Savages. Something I have never heard any continental African express ( they like to use other words from there own traditions  ;) ). And I would never expect it from the fictional Wakandans. A culture which stretches back to Kemet (Ta-Merry) itself. A culture older than Europe, using the same cultural expressions of racist Europeans... I don't think so. I know theses are small details. but it's something that stops me from truely enjoying the storytelling experience...>>

Not speaking so much of the "savages" term, but for "sweet", people made the same complaint about Reggie--he had the Wakandans sounding too American, too African-American.  While some of that was from hatred, some of it came from the same argument, Wakandan wouldn't take langugage clues from any outside nation. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 08, 2010, 07:29:26 pm
Just as a quick aside, it occurs to me that a mini series featuring the Black Panther (Shuri) and the White Tiger (Angela Del Toro) fighting side-by-side and written as a collab by Tamora Price/Timothy Liebe and Maberry might be very interesting and could sell reasonably well; no Hellcat and Black Cat this time around - no kitties, just the big cats this time around. I'd add it to my collection.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 09, 2010, 02:35:54 am
TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.

Until now.

The disbelief at Doom's and Desturi's success feels like the disbelief people had at the successful attacks during 9/11. Nobody thought it was possible but it still happened.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 09, 2010, 04:10:39 am
<<Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.>>

Umm when did the Wakandans ever repel Galactus or the Eternals? Or the Deviants?  I know BP has a plan to deal with Galactus, but doesn't mean it will work, so until the plan actually works, you can't call it "foolproof".

But your point about the Wakandans being overconfident is valid.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on May 09, 2010, 10:38:44 am
<<Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.>>

Umm when did the Wakandans ever repel Galactus or the Eternals? Or the Deviants?  I know BP has a plan to deal with Galactus, but doesn't mean it will work, so until the plan actually works, you can't call it "foolproof".

But your point about the Wakandans being overconfident is valid.

Foolproof plan?! Aren't we giving Wakandan's too much credit now?  They have a plan to divert a planet eater? And they actually succeeded?! Uh no. And if so .... WHEN!?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 10, 2010, 01:36:37 am
Agreed. One has to show and prove. That's one of the challenges with Black Panther. We been told Tchalla is on par with Reed, Tony and Victor but we don't see the same level of out put. All the varying inventions, mastery of diverse fields of science , physical prowess. We need to see more of it. When writers like Priest and Hudlin advance BP some other writer starts the dismantling process. The core support characters keeps changing, HELL the main character keeps changing. Spiderman and Batman support cast has been constant for decades. Forget upgrading Tchalla, upgrade his rogues gallery. Let's not forget from which humble beginning Norman Osborn came. Show Tchalla inventing the various armors, take us on a guided tour through techno jungle and impress us with something unique. Show us  the danger room Wakandan style. Show us Wakandans in space meeting the Shi'ar, the Brood, the Kree, colonizing other planets. Show the many sacred and magical rituals that allow astral projection, psychic protection and transdimensional interaction. Show us in grand fashion how Wakandans can defeat Galactus. Show us something without the humor, without the help of nonWakandans, without the pseudo legacy of wanna be Black Panthers. Show us Tchalla the one true Black Panther.

It  is not that we can't accept Doom getting the best of Tchalla it is the poorly demonstrated depiction of how it was done. Doom is better than nanites, that was 25 years ago. HELL some people don't believe 911's success was due to terrorist. They know it happened, they just aren't sure who to assign the blame to.

Kip has a point. With Wakanda we are given the opportunity to explore all the nuances of a culture that is free of the influences of the west. Let's explore and exploit that opportunity to its fullest extent.

Cat as a practicing Breatherian ;) it would be unethical for me not to warn you about holding you breath for something that more than likely will not occur.

Supreme Illuminati, as always great post however with your permission I would like to address your post after some sleep. It is 4:16 am where I'm at.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 12, 2010, 10:40:30 am
I agree, hopefully when/if he joins again it will get mention more often, but atleast he be in the main cast of the new Avenger cartoon..

I wonder how long we'll have to wait before the Black Panther debut in the series. If I'm looking at the correct promos for the series, it appears we'll have to slog through the back stories of Capt. America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man, and Wasp before we get to our (or at least, my) favorite Avenger, the Black Panther.

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Yeah those are basically his powers, before m-day he was the leader of his squad Alpha Squadron, he also one of the few gay characters imo that not written like a stereotype/stereotypical way (I don't even notice he was until I read NM vol.2 & New X-Men for the 2nd time),
 

4Sake, you touch on very interesting subjects. We've all read it posted now and again - indeed, in this very thread - that Marvel Comics needs more black writers writing black characters. We've all discovered that all black writers can't please all black readers all of the time. Hudlin has suffered the slings and arrows of critics black and white alike who have found him lacking when it comes to capturing the true essence of the Black Panther and even moreso, Storm. He once had Storm utter a phrase (it's been so long ago now I've even forgotten what it was Storm even said) however, some deemed that one phrase so much out of Storm's character that it was discussed for quite some time.

So, it's difficult for talented black writers to portray black characters in a fashion that satisfies the diverse comicbook readership, how much more difficult then must it be for a writer to portray a gay character. Black characters are readily identifiable as such unless one takes into account the occasional x-geek who insists Storm - born of a Black-American father and a Kenyan mother - somehow managed to emerge from her black mother's womb a patchwork quilt of mutant humanity. Gays aren't as easily identified. Who would have ever suspected Northstar or Rawhide Kid of being gay? For a long time, Storm was written pretty much asexual (and quite badly IMO) during her earliest X-Men days. Ambiguous writing by Claremont (which I've only read about in forum posts but never seen evidence of in any comicbooks) and suggestive illustrations of Storm and other female characters (again, I"ve only read about these "scenes" in forum posts) has apparently convinced more than a few x-geeks that Storm is bi-sexual. Unless writers have a character come right out - "out of the closet" as it were - and state their sexual orientation or we see evidence of this orientation acted upon with another character, it is impossible to identify a gay character. Meanwhile, a character like Nezhno for instance is a prime target for those who eagerly labeled Storm bi-sexual and who are no doubt disgusted to see that Ororo seems to be a confirmed heterosexual. Unless some writer has Nezhno and Pixie in a Beak/Angel drunken underage intercourse/impregnation fiasco, his sexual orientation is undetermined.


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As for his tongue I remember him using it in battle once in New X-Men & once in Young X-Men. In New Mutants vol.2 I vaguely remember him using it to play sports (I think he caught a frisbee & football with it & maybe using it to play basketball once) when the kids there hang out. Plus it looks cool..  8)


I remember watching the Toad character using his tongue in the X-Men Evolution animated series. It just didn't seem to click with me. For one, the tongue is a very sensitive organ. To put it out there in harm's way like that doesn't seem too healthy.

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Yeah he some what back.. Selene had Eli Bard resurrect & some what completely control (they were trying to fight our of her control) alot dead former X-Men (he was one the one that was) so that they could battle with & distract X-Men while she had resurrect all 16 million mutants who died on Genosha that died.. Her goal sacrifice/eat their souls so she could become all powerfully/immortal, but she didn't get all the souls she need so she didn't become immortal so Warpath was able to do it defeat/kill her. All  to most of the mutants that were on Genosha souls were taking by her, but not not all the all the dead x-men/mutants that were fighting the X-Men on Utopia were. So he could one of the one who souls wasn't taken by her.  Then they would just need to take the transmode virus  out of his system/body just like they did Doug Ramsey & he would be good as new/maybe even better..

Looks like more X-Men weirdness to me  :D  I'd sure love to see Synch back healthy, whole and as a powerful black male mutant.   

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Glad that you do & I agree.. that is one of my main prob. with Kasper (beside he should have never became BP in the 1st.. At a minimum you should atleast be 15-25 % Wakandan/have Wakandan blood to be the BP.. ) I don't mind him calling himself the White Tiger (I think Kasper is a better/cool name than it), but also long as it has nothing to do with Wakanda because doesn't make sense in story.. But even worse was the Gold Lion.. it doesn't make sense at all for there to be Gold Lion in the Panther Cult with there is a Lion Cult in Wakanda & that Lion Cult/Lion God has been shown to dislike/attack T'Challa & hate the Panther Cult. the Gold Lion should be the Lion Cult version of the Black Panther.. An the Crocodile Cult should have the Green Crocodie or something like that..

In total agreement all the way.

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Aslo the English/British Howler/Howling Command is Percival ''Percy'' Pinkerton..

Thanks  ;) I think the only two Howlers that have ever stuck in my memory are Sgt Fury and Dum Dum Dugan.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 15, 2010, 01:19:43 am

I wonder how long we'll have to wait before the Black Panther debut in the series. If I'm looking at the correct promos for the series, it appears we'll have to slog through the back stories of Capt. America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man, and Wasp before we get to our (or at least, my) favorite Avenger, the Black Panther.


He's on this promo pic..


(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/avengersemh16.jpg)


Christopher Yost  :  There's some new 'Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes' animated art floating around out there on the interweb. 7 of the 8 members revealed!

http://www.animatedsuperheroes.com/labels/2011%20Avengers%20Earth%27s%20Mightiest%20Heroes.html (http://www.animatedsuperheroes.com/labels/2011%20Avengers%20Earth%27s%20Mightiest%20Heroes.html)

http://twitter.com/yost/statuses/8687684389 (http://twitter.com/yost/statuses/8687684389)




4Sake, you touch on very interesting subjects. We've all read it posted now and again - indeed, in this very thread - that Marvel Comics needs more black writers writing black characters. We've all discovered that all black writers can't please all black readers all of the time. Hudlin has suffered the slings and arrows of critics black and white alike who have found him lacking when it comes to capturing the true essence of the Black Panther and even moreso, Storm. He once had Storm utter a phrase (it's been so long ago now I've even forgotten what it was Storm even said) however, some deemed that one phrase so much out of Storm's character that it was discussed for quite some time.

So, it's difficult for talented black writers to portray black characters in a fashion that satisfies the diverse comicbook readership, how much more difficult then must it be for a writer to portray a gay character. Black characters are readily identifiable as such unless one takes into account the occasional x-geek who insists Storm - born of a Black-American father and a Kenyan mother - somehow managed to emerge from her black mother's womb a patchwork quilt of mutant humanity.



Very true..

Gays aren't as easily identified. Who would have ever suspected Northstar or Rawhide Kid of being gay? For a long time, Storm was written pretty much asexual (and quite badly IMO) during her earliest X-Men days. Ambiguous writing by Claremont (which I've only read about in forum posts but never seen evidence of in any comicbooks) and suggestive illustrations of Storm and other female characters (again, I"ve only read about these "scenes" in forum posts) has apparently convinced more than a few x-geeks that Storm is bi-sexual. Unless writers have a character come right out - "out of the closet" as it were - and state their sexual orientation or we see evidence of this orientation acted upon with another character, it is impossible to identify a gay character.


I agree & John Byrne petty much says he always intened for Northstar to be gay/created Northstar as gay man.

Was it your intended when you created Northstar that he would be a gay man?

JB: When I created Alpha Flight they were basically half a dozen characters who could survive a prolonged battle with the X-Men. They had very little depth -- tho I am a compulsive creator of backstory, so I knew something about their histories even then -- and were not really created with any thought toward them eventually getting their own title.
Unfortunately (?) they proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book. Eventually I relented, and agreed to do the series -- which meant I had one problem instantly: I had to find ways to make those characters more three dimensional.

One of the things that popped immediately into my head was to make one of them Gay. I had recently read an article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN on what was then (the early 80s) fairly radical new thinking on just what processes caused a person to be homosexual, and the evidence was pointing increasingly to it being genetic and not environmental factors. So, I thought, it seemed like it was time for a Gay superhero, and since I was being "forced" to make ALPHA FLIGHT a real series, I might as well make one of them Gay.

From there, it was a process of elimination. I didn't want the homosexual character to be one of the girls, since that was something people tended to associate (rightly or wrongly) with Claremont books. Mac Hudson and Heather were happily married and I did not want to mess with that. Michael was widowed with a daughter, and that way lay what I considered too much of a cliche, if he turned out to be Gay. Besides, as a Native Canadian he was already the resident "minority". The new guy, Puck, had his own set of problems. Sasquatach would be just too damn scary!! So I settled on Jean-Paul, and the moment I did I realized it was already there. Somewhere in the back of my mind I must have been considering making him Gay before I "decided" to so so.

Of course, the temper of the times, the Powers That Were and, naturally, the Comics Code would not let me come right out and state that Jean-Paul was homosexual, but I managed to "get the word out" even with those barriers. (8/24/2004)


http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#106

Also Bling!/Roxanne ''Roxy'' Washington is both black/AA & a lesbian.. 8)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5344/852160-bling_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/bling/105-852160/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/80261-57274-bling_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/57274-bling/105-80261/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/964286-xmla__001_022_copia_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/xmla__001_022_copia/105-964286/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33806/984270-1254858113c_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/1254858113c/105-984270/)

Also was thinking the today that there are a many characters that could easily identify as being mixed/multiracial(who right now are only know to be white)...  They could multiracial because the way they been drawn/the way there parents have been drawn/their parents haven't been show yet/their character history  & few other reasons.  Off the of top head Mercury, Gambit Cloud 9, Carmilla Black/Thanasee Rappaccini, Iron Fist/Rand & Rockslide could easy be multiracial characters..

Meanwhile, a character like Nezhno for instance is a prime target for those who eagerly labeled Storm bi-sexual and who are no doubt disgusted to see that Ororo seems to be a confirmed heterosexual. Unless some writer has Nezhno and Pixie in a Beak/Angel drunken underage intercourse/impregnation fiasco, his sexual orientation is undetermined.


PLEASE ANY ONE OTHER THAN PIXIE..

If the New X-Men ever get a book again I'd like to see him date :

Dust - the both have outside looking in thing going when it come to being X-students & they seem to have mutual respect for each other & ..

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/78293-61366-dust_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/61366-dust/105-78293/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/78294-19339-dust_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/19339-dust/105-78294/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/933985-newxmen42dcp0009nc6_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/newxmen42dcp0009nc6/105-933985/)(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5392/264195-177055-gentle_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/177055-gentle/105-264195/)

Or

Mercury - because she basically(non-toxic) living metal he will be able to feel her because his  vibranium tattoos/powers make hard for him to feel things, but he felt Mercury when she touch him..  

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/206935-10515-mercury_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/10515-mercury/105-206935/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/1118227-prv4395_pg5xc_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/prv4395_pg5xc/105-1118227/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5392/358448-312-gentle_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/312-gentle/105-358448/)

I remember watching the Toad character using his tongue in the X-Men Evolution animated series. It just didn't seem to click with me. For one, the tongue is a very sensitive organ. To put it out there in harm's way like that doesn't seem too healthy.


True lol I remember him garbing with it & Scott shotting it with his beam & burning.. Also he came at Logan with once & he cut it with his claws..

But here Anole using his to get the remote & play basket ball (I think)..

  (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/93506-142250-anole_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/142250-anole/105-93506/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/4226/136634-65276-anole_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/65276-anole/105-136634/)

Thanks  ;) I think the only two Howlers that have ever stuck in my memory are Sgt Fury and Dum Dum Dugan.


No prob, Yeah after the Fruy, Dugan & Jones the rest aren't really all that important or mention that much..

Also I remember you mention Prodigy while I'm not really a fan of his, but I thought I'd let u know he was last shown helping Scott organize/run his forces/teams in the 2nd coming.

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11768/1201675-prodigy_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/prodigy/105-1201675/)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 15, 2010, 06:53:59 pm
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

This entire post is yet another example of sinjection's piercing intellect,his sure suasion borne from his lucid logic...and I completely respect this perspective that he offers here.Now my response here is sooo thoroughly subjective,that many who don't agree with me or see where I'm coming from could be and I think should be forgiven,but I think that any practicing martial artist--including the Hall of Fame inductee author of DOOMWAR,our very own JM--will feel me on this.

I was teaching clients of my ATACX GYM shortly after my post to sinjection detailing portions of the reasons why I have no problem with DOOM handily winning the early rounds in his confrontation with TCHALLA,WAKANDA and the assembled heroes at large,when in walks this crew of bruthas including in their number an impressively muscled brutha about 6'4" and 255 pounds of solid,striated sinew.He exuded that deep confidence and alpha-alpha male aura of the proven,experienced,skilled combatant and predator.I peeped him out of the corner of my eye as his boi from his crew (a young dude in his late 20's of similar height but only about 215 pounds,and whom I'd had occassion to physically remonstrate with regarding using excessive force when sparring with a comparatively new FEMALE client of mine literally 100 pounds lighter and 8 inches shorter after warning him FIVE TIMES regarding that behaviour with other clients of mine in the space of a week,then finally expelling him from my gym and returning his money to him) pointed me out.This NFL linebacker type brutha nodded once,observed me teach my client the shoulder roll off of the jab,then moved directly toward me when I finished.

As I turned to face him,he asked me only one question:"Did you kick (I'M DELIBERATELY NOT USING THE NAME OF THE BRUTHA WHOM I EXPELLED OUT OF MY GYM FOR LIABILITY REASONS,NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A SPECIAL CONCERN FOR PROTECTING HIS ANONYMITY) out of here?"

"Yes..." was all I had time to say before he bull rushed me with a double leg.I sprawled and helicoptered (the spin you use to go directly to your opponent's back from a sprawl without touching your feet on the ground.It's much faster than the regular method of spinning to your opponent's back).This huge brutha spun beneath me like a sabertooth tiger and somehow prevented me from getting his back,while seizing me with huge strength and literally throwing me away like he was doing a chest pass with a medicine ball.I snapped a back tuck mid-air,landed on my feet and we went at it hard and fast.Bare knuckle.No protective equipment.Old skool style.

Even at age 40--yes I'm 40--I usually enjoy a significant quickness and speed advantage over most people.I can still pull off a nearly 2 minute 800 meter and a sub 4.5 40 meter sprint.I can both bench press double my bodyweight and squat quadruple my bodyweight for reps,and I almost never lift steel.This kid was 10 years my junior and 100 pounds heavier,plus 7-8 inches taller.Par for the course for me,I've beaten guys like this mucho times.Nothing new there.What WAS new was when this dude smoothly transformed a shotgun jab he fired and which I barely eluded into a rolling downward backfist which cracked me just under my left ear and across my carotid.Another new thing was how he transformed his backfist into a neck tie and slammed a knee into my chest that--even though I barely blocked it--was delivered with such explosive power that it literally knocked me backwards off of my feet and snatched me out of his own grip.This guy was every bit as quick as I am,and that was every bit as disconcerting as seeing that this guy had a strong traditional martial arts background that covered the easily exploitable holes that most guys with MMA training--which he also had--leave wide open and which I'm used to exploiting.While I was enjoying the pain shooting down my neck from his backfist and the shortness of breath and fiery pain caused by his knee,he removed all doubt about his traditional martial arts background by firing a wicked knife kick at my groin which I barely managed to avoid,which set me up for a cold Muay Thai shin kick to the body which I also parried but which delivered alot of trauma to my conditioned forearms and shin which blocked the kick.I barely slipped the following cross and literally had to leap away in a dive roll to avoid being caught by his same-side knee/spinning elbow combination.I came back with a feint-sidekick to his knee which he dismissively blocked MT style,followed with a back kick that he not only waved away but nearly caught me in a standing achilles lock for even trying,I jumped over his attempt to shin kick my standing leg while running me backwards toward the gym wall and disengaged his hold on my foot with a kenpo technique called Breaking the Fetters and his answering hook missed ripping my head off by a quarter second.I'd angled myself to take advantage of the momentum he built up while running me toward the wall to either avoid the wall entirely or use the rebound to my advantage but he read me perfectly and stopped my attempted diagonal escape with another beautiful shin kick which I mostly parried but which still opened up my forehead.I took that momentum and the slamming energy of me against the wall to execute a double role from capoeira and a dive roll to put space between he and I but he was all over me with knees fists and elbows.I parried slipped eluded and countered with a ridgehand to the groin but he totally stopped that and countered with a handsword to my neck which I eluded.I served a left to his muscled stomach which scored,he countered with a overhand right which grazed me,I tried to toss him with a judo knee wheel and he wasn't having ANY of that PLUS he nearly tripped me with a foot sweep which I evaded,then he took me down with a left leg inside trip on my left leg.I countered immediately with a judo tomonage and thought I was going to take advantage and finish him but he executed a beautiful breakfall and rolled smoothly to his feet in a fighting stance,and immediately began moving in on me again.I started using my trademark elusive footwork but this guy was looking waaay too comfy tracking me down.He looked like a sabertooth on skates,huge powerful fluid quick smooth and predatory and I knew I was in trouble.

For the first time in my life,I'd been confronted by someone who was stronger,longer,just as quick or quicker,just as technically sound,possessed of just as deep of a combat arsenal,just as impressive with his conditioning so he could fight as long or longer than I can,just as coordinated,and mentally just as strong.I had ZERO of the traditional advantages that I usually used to quickly and decisively resolve matters in my own favor.After 34 years of martial arts training to overcome whatever obstacle,I was realizing under fire that I'd grown complacent with the physical,technical and mental advantages which I'd used time and time again to overcome my adversaries whatever their size and number...and I was facing that unpleasant sensation that comes to us when we're not only uncertain but deeply concerned that failure will have the worst possible consequences for us.

You know how I beat him? During another scramble during which we exchanged sidekicks,knees,heel hook kicks,punches,forearm smashes,elbows,and during which he blocked my 5 Swords (probably the trademark technique of my base punching and kicking art,Kenpo Karate) not only once but TWICE (again something which has never happened),this dude pulled off a jab,used a crescent kick to my lead left foot to almost sweep me,feinted a single leg and pulled off a Jon Bones Jones like spinning elbow which would have taken my whole head off had I not used my ginga to slide right under him while simultaneously slipping the elbow.I spit right in his face,then--off of a totally spontaneous movement borne from the fact that this dude had literally backed me into a corner blocking my escape--I used a Parkour style bounce off of the wall combined with Kenpo's Parting Wings to launch myself literally head first ( la cabeca in capoeira) like a human spear into his wide open face while his eyes were closed by my spit.This cracked his nose wide open and allowed me to roll passed him as his spine bent back like he was doing the Limbo under a bar.I finished his with a sidekick to the base of his spine and a full powered,full contact spin kick to his temple.He hit the ground out cold.

I calmly looked at the brutha whom I'd expelled,and told him he'd better get this dude I just beat as well as himself out of my gym right now because I'm calling the police.I put my cellie on loud speaker and let him hear the 911 operator answer the phone for effect to emphasize my point.Those guys evaporated before the police arrived,but I gave them every bit of info that I had on them including the make and color of the car they were driving,and every name that I knew pertaining to them.I also immediately moved my training location for the next 2 weeks.

Wow ur life is like a movie..  8) (I wish  U cud saw this go down)

What does this have to do with DOOMWAR? Simply EVERYTHING.

TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.

Until now.


Interesting/good points

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 16, 2010, 05:15:49 am
He's on this promo pic..

([url]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/BLOODMONEY_2006/avengersemh16.jpg[/url])


I've seen this promo but for some reason, didn't connect it to the upcoming animated t.v. show. The Panther is looking good. When it comes to style, functionality, and the intimidation/coolness factor, the Black Panther habit is second to none when compared to the costume/garb of the other superhero types. I always preferred the Panther without the cape, especially when the character is in battle. He (and/or she) appears more streamlined and sleek without the cape.

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I agree & John Byrne petty much says he always intened for Northstar to be gay/created Northstar as gay man.

Was it your intended when you created Northstar that he would be a gay man?

JB: When I created Alpha Flight they were basically half a dozen characters who could survive a prolonged battle with the X-Men. They had very little depth -- tho I am a compulsive creator of backstory, so I knew something about their histories even then -- and were not really created with any thought toward them eventually getting their own title.
Unfortunately (?) they proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book. Eventually I relented, and agreed to do the series -- which meant I had one problem instantly: I had to find ways to make those characters more three dimensional.


Very interesting. "Unfortunately(?) they [Alpha Flight] proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book." In my always humble opinion, Alpha Flight was one of the more exciting concepts developed for Marvel Comics period. The characters were fresh, original, intriguing, diverse, and dynamic---as exciting if not more so, than the X-Men. Byrne's comments seem to suggest he wasn't altogether enthused about his creation and that's what strikes me as being unfortunate. I now have to wonder if the very untimely death of James Hudson/Vindicator could have been Byrne's way of sabotaging Alpha Flight. I would hope not. An Alpha Flight team consisting of: Vindicator/J. Hudson, Guardian/H. Hudson, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Pathway, Goblyn, Northstar, Aurora, Shaman and Talisman would definitely reinvigorate my flagging interest in comics. A limited series featuring Cloak and Dagger as temporary members of the Imperial Guard would catch my interest as well. By the way 4Sake, whatever happened to Pathway and Goblyn? I doubt they're on Utopia.

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One of the things that popped immediately into my head was to make one of them Gay. I had recently read an article in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN on what was then (the early 80s) fairly radical new thinking on just what processes caused a person to be homosexual, and the evidence was pointing increasingly to it being genetic and not environmental factors. So, I thought, it seemed like it was time for a Gay superhero, and since I was being "forced" to make ALPHA FLIGHT a real series, I might as well make one of them Gay.


hmmmm...Byrne felt "forced" to develop his excellent Alpha Flight concept as an ongoing and feeling put upon, decided to make a Flight member gay. Any inspiration for introducing a gay character Byrne might have found in the Scientific American article makes perfect sense to me. But it seems that the other part of Byrne's reasoning for making a Flight member gay was a sort of retaliation for being "forced" to produce the Alpha Flight ongoing.  :-\....don't know what to make of that.

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From there, it was a process of elimination. I didn't want the homosexual character to be one of the girls, since that was something people tended to associate (rightly or wrongly) with Claremont books.


Like Storm for instance. Ororo might not have been headed toward homosexuality but in the opinions of many Claremont/x-geeks, Storm's bisexuality was established fact. Hudlin's MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY might not have ended this speculation but like RoLo, the "Storm is bisexual" express has been derailed by one of Hudlin's "many mistakes".

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Mac Hudson and Heather were happily married and I did not want to mess with that.


Nope. Don't let homosexuality become an issue in Mac and Heather's marriage; ugly, hairy, height-challenged dirty old men however... go for it. Both Wolverine and Puck had a thing for Mrs. Hudson at one time or another. In addition, IIRC, there was a significant age difference between Mac and Heather (ala Reed and Sue). The Hudsons didn't need any additional pressures on their marriage.

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Michael was widowed with a daughter, and that way lay what I considered too much of a cliche, if he turned out to be Gay. Besides, as a Native Canadian he was already the resident "minority". The new guy, Puck, had his own set of problems.


Heightened focus on a character's sexual orientation is a fairly recent phenomenon. Readers of Kid Colt, Two-Gun Kid, and Rawhide Kid weren't overly concerned with the sexuality of those characters. Yes, while there may or may not have been hints of homosexuality, obvious heterosexuality has always been depicted in a very tame way in comics. Heterosexual flirtations and marriages were prevalent. How many readers thought of heterosexual characters as a "majority"? Homosexuals are a minority---an "invisible" minority. Dr. Twoyoungmen/Shaman - a Native American - was a visible "resident minority". Laura Dean - a Black female - was a visible "resident minority" of Beta Flight. Had either Shaman or Pathway been homosexual as well, the reader would not have noticed this added aspect of "minority" status unless they learned of it through the character's public or private thoughts or statements on the matter or through intimate interaction with a character of their same gender.

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Sasquatach would be just too damn scary!!


...just too damn scary to be gay? I'm aware of the "lipstick lesbian" and super-fine gay male stereotypes out there. Throw the metrosexual in there too. Walter Langkowski wasn't "just too damn scary" to bed the beautiful Jeanne-Marie Baubier.

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So I settled on Jean-Paul, and the moment I did I realized it was already there. Somewhere in the back of my mind I must have been considering making him Gay before I "decided" to so so.


Every member of Alpha Flight was interesting; however, it seemed to me that Northstar was gaining in fan popularity at a faster rate than the others. I remember confirmed Northstar's homosexuality making t.v. national news reports. Looking back on Jean-Paul's earliest civilian appearances, he did seem aloof of the female attention he received. At the time, I chalked it all up to his being an arrogant ass. Eventually however, I did pick up on certain clues - the interaction between himself and Aurora when they both believed Langkowski to have been killed and his "mysterious illness" that appeared to me to be the A.I.D.S. virus at that time.

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Of course, the temper of the times, the Powers That Were and, naturally, the Comics Code would not let me come right out and state that Jean-Paul was homosexual, but I managed to "get the word out" even with those barriers. (8/24/2004)


The Rawhide Kid didn't become homosexual until recently, 5 years or so. Since Northstar, it seems there has been a proliferation of characters either being created homosexual or allowing circumstances of how established characters have been written to dictate their sexual orientation. Recently, I learned that the character Shatterstar is homosexual although his creator says he did not create him as such. As with the Rawhide Kid, editors interpreted Shatterstar's limited interaction with females as being a preference for males. The same could happen to Nezhno.

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Also Bling!/Roxanne ''Roxy'' Washington is both black/AA & a lesbian.. 8)

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5344/852160-bling_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/bling/105-852160/[/url]) ([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/80261-57274-bling_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/57274-bling/105-80261/[/url])

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/964286-xmla__001_022_copia_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/xmla__001_022_copia/105-964286/[/url]) ([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33806/984270-1254858113c_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/1254858113c/105-984270/[/url])


These scans are the most attractive illustrations of Bling I"ve seen to date. Like Jessica Jones (who was looking quite fetching legs crossed and wearing bunny slippers) it appears some artists have decided to give Bling a break from the ugly stick.

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Also was thinking the today that there are a many characters that could easily identify as being mixed/multiracial(who right now are only know to be white)...  They could multiracial because the way they been drawn/the way there parents have been drawn/their parents haven't been show yet/their character history  & few other reasons.  Off the of top head Mercury, Gambit Cloud 9, Carmilla Black/Thanasee Rappaccini, Iron Fist/Rand & Rockslide could easy be multiracial characters..


Really? Worth investigating in my spare time. Marvel doesn't seem shy about hooking up attractive black female characters with white male characters and at least 2 of those white characters have killed their black female lovers: Calypso/Kraven The Hunter - I believe Kraven killed Calypso. Nekra (black, although her skin is chalk-white)/Grim Reaper - Reaper killed Nekra. Wolverine has kissed Storm once or twice. Misty Knight pregnant and engaged to Danny Rand. Celia Reyes/Hank McCoy. Glory Grant (J.J. Jameson's erstwhile secretary) dated the hispanic characters Hector Ayala and Eduardo Lobo.

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PLEASE ANY ONE OTHER THAN PIXIE..


I defer to your more comprehensive knowledge of all things X-Men  :D I mentioned Pixie because of the memory of some member at "the other place" suggesting the two of them together.

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If the New X-Men ever get a book again I'd like to see him date :

Dust - the both have outside looking in thing going when it come to being X-students & they seem to have mutual respect for each other & ..

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/78293-61366-dust_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/61366-dust/105-78293/[/url]) ([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/78294-19339-dust_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/19339-dust/105-78294/[/url])

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/933985-newxmen42dcp0009nc6_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/newxmen42dcp0009nc6/105-933985/[/url])([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5392/264195-177055-gentle_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/177055-gentle/105-264195/[/url])


I don't follow the mutants anymore, but I do have a vague awareness of the characters. I see an illustration of Dust without her veil. Never saw that before. Knowing Marvel's and the x-writer's penchant for getting their white male characters into the pants of all female characters - white/non-white/extraterrestrial/extra-dimensional, etc...- I expect the rest of Dust's clothes will join her discarded veil and she'll find her completely naked body in the arms of some male X-Man not named Nezhno or Prodigy very soon, if not sooner.

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Or Mercury - because she basically(non-toxic) living metal he will be able to feel her because his  vibranium tattoos/powers make hard for him to feel things, but he felt Mercury when she touch him.. 

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/206935-10515-mercury_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/10515-mercury/105-206935/[/url]) ([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/1118227-prv4395_pg5xc_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/prv4395_pg5xc/105-1118227/[/url])

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5392/358448-312-gentle_large.jpg[/url])[/url ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/312-gentle/105-358448/[/url])
]

With their tattoos and all, Nezhno and T'Challa are beginning to look like twin brothers.

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Also I remember you mention Prodigy while I'm not really a fan of his, but I thought I'd let u know he was last shown helping Scott organize/run his forces/teams in the 2nd coming.

([url]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11768/1201675-prodigy_large.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.comicvine.com/prodigy/105-1201675/[/url])


Cool. I hope Prodigy doesn't manage to get himself killed off by an x-writer anytime soon.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 16, 2010, 03:27:09 pm

I've seen this promo but for some reason, didn't connect it to the upcoming animated t.v. show. The Panther is looking good. When it comes to style, functionality, and the intimidation/coolness factor, the Black Panther habit is second to none when compared to the costume/garb of the other superhero types. I always preferred the Panther without the cape, especially when the character is in battle. He (and/or she) appears more streamlined and sleek without the cape.



Yeah, he does look petty cool their..


Very interesting. "Unfortunately(?) they [Alpha Flight] proved enormously popular, and so Marvel began pushing me to do an ALPHA FLIGHT book." In my always humble opinion, Alpha Flight was one of the more exciting concepts developed for Marvel Comics period. The characters were fresh, original, intriguing, diverse, and dynamic---as exciting if not more so, than the X-Men. Byrne's comments seem to suggest he wasn't altogether enthused about his creation and that's what strikes me as being unfortunate. I now have to wonder if the very untimely death of James Hudson/Vindicator could have been Byrne's way of sabotaging Alpha Flight. I would hope not. An Alpha Flight team consisting of: Vindicator/J. Hudson, Guardian/H. Hudson, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Pathway, Goblyn, Northstar, Aurora, Shaman and Talisman would definitely reinvigorate my flagging interest in comics. A limited series featuring Cloak and Dagger as temporary members of the Imperial Guard would catch my interest as well.


Think he feels that way is because they were something he thought wasn't that great/good maybe because when 1st made them for marvel they supposed be a 1 & done type team that could fight the X-Men & not die.. I think he never felt he ever put his hole heart into them like he did in Iron Fist creation  or his Super Man stories or his She-Hulk stories.. Kitty P. creation & etc..  Plus giving them a book probably was Jim Shooter idea or Shooter may made him write there ongoing & really seem to not like Shooter at all.. If it helps  he didn't put his all in making the Original New Mutants team/concept either because Shooter made he & CC make them.

I've heard you say more than once that you disliked your ALPHA FLIGHT run. Was it the art or the writing that you thought fell down?

JB: Alpha Flight (the team) were never really meant to be anything more than a bunch of superheroes who could survive a fight with the X-Men. They had no real depth, and I resisted suggestions that they get their own book for a couple of years. Then, finally, realizing Marvel would probably get someone else to do it, if I didn't, I relented and agreed. (Sidebar: ALPHA FLIGHT #1 was the biggest selling comic of its day -- 500,000 copies!!)

Down through the years, a number of Gay fans have approached me to say "thanks" for ALPHA FLIGHT and NorthStar, so I suppose it justifies its existence in that way -- but as a whole, except for a couple of bright moments, the book just never gelled for me, art- or story-wise. (4/4/98)


http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#10


JB: Several members of what became Alpha Flight date back to my fan days. Guardian is chief among them, being created when I was in my early 20s as the figurehead of a whole line of "Canadian comics" I was hoping to produce. Snowbird, in very different form, was born around the same time. Shaman, originally called Chinook (he had only weather-controlling powers) came next. (There was also a character called Phoenix. No chance he would ever have made it into Alpha Flight!)

When I was assigned the gig of penciling UNCANNY X-MEN, Chris Claremont mentioned that Dave Cockrum had an idea that the Canadian government probably would not be too thrilled to see their multi-million dollar investment -- Wolverine -- head south as had so many other Canadian resources. Surely, he suggested, Ottawa would send somebody, perhaps even a team, to get him back. This sounded like a great idea, to me, and, of course, I had just the characters to do it. We decided to start with just one, tho, the leader of the group. Since Marvel at that time was publishing GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY the Powers that Were nixed the name Guardian, and since my backup, the Canadian Shield, was equally problematic in the Marvel Universe, he was without a name for a while. Chris took to calling him "Major Mapleleaf", and Roger Stern said we'd better come up with a name before that one stuck. Chris then tacked on "Vindicator", which absolutely did not work for me. What does Canada need to "vindicate"? I began pushing for the restoration of Guardian, and eventually pushed that thru.

Before that happened, tho, we had our "sequel" to do, with that group of Canadians coming down to reclaim Wolverine. I dropped in the renamed (and power enhanced) Shaman and a redesigned Snowbird, and came up with Northstar and Aurora (super speed to counter Nightcrawler's teleportation), and Sasquatch (to balance Colossus) and off we went. In the process I came up with real names and some backstory for each.

But in my mind, Alpha Flight existed only as a team assembled to fight the X-Men. When Marvel asked for an Alpha series, I resisted for a long time. I just didn't see much that could be done with them. (7/16/2008)


http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#119

I now have to wonder if the very untimely death of James Hudson/Vindicator could have been Byrne's way of sabotaging Alpha Flight

Naw he seemed happy to kill him off

Do you think you would have worked ALPHA FLIGHT differently if there hadn't been such a drive for doing "real" death stories in comics at the time? And do you wish you wouldn't have killed Jim?

JB: One of us is misremembering the period. I don't recall any "drive" for "real" death stories at the time I offed Mac. Rather, I did that particular story because I felt Mac was the least interesting of all the members of Alpha, but realized that from his death I could generate a whole flock of interesting subplots and arcs. In my constant quest to make the members of Alpha more three dimensional, I was always looking for anything that could be used to generate depth in their personalities. Mac's death -- and their reactions to it -- was such a way. So, no, I've never regretted killing him.


http://www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=2&T1=Questions+about+Comic+Book+Projects#12

By the way 4Sake, whatever happened to Pathway and Goblyn? I doubt they're on Utopia.


Your right they are in Comic book Limbo..


hmmmm...Byrne felt "forced" to develop his excellent Alpha Flight concept as an ongoing and feeling put upon, decided to make a Flight member gay. Any inspiration for introducing a gay character Byrne might have found in the Scientific American article makes perfect sense to me. But it seems that the other part of Byrne's reasoning for making a Flight member gay was a sort of retaliation for being "forced" to produce the Alpha Flight ongoing.  :-\....don't know what to make of that.



Yeah it look like petty everyone at marvel thought they were a great concept while he felt they suck So he just eventually gave in did the book..

Like he said up in the quote I think add that Northstar character/concept three dimensional because before he was petty much Canadian Quicksliver.. 

I'm think is what saw them as for the most part  (that till he add some depth in their personalities)

Northstar = French Canadian Quicksliver (both kind of aholes, twins & have same power)
Aurora = French Canadian Wanda (both Crazy as hell & both twins)
Sasquatch = Canadian Beast/Hank (both smart & have simlar powers)
Guardian/Vindicator = Canadian Captain America/Iron Man (simlar powers to Iron Man & simlar outfit to Captain America) 
Snowbird = Canadian female Thor (both Gods)
Puck = shorter Wolverine (both short & hairy)
Shaman = Canadian Thunderbird with Magic powers
Heather MacNeil = kind of the Canadian Wasp (got her powers from her bf/Husband like Wasp did)
Marrina Smallwood = Canadian Female Namor (While he lived with his mother ppl, she lived with her adopted father ppl)

More than like that petty much what he saw them as till gave them more depth, there own character traits & etc.


Had either Shaman or Pathway been homosexual as well, the reader would not have noticed this added aspect of "minority" status unless they learned of it through the character's public or private thoughts or statements on the matter or through intimate interaction with a character of their same gender.


Very True..

...just too damn scary to be gay? I'm aware of the "lipstick lesbian" and super-fine gay male stereotypes out there. Throw the metrosexual in there too. Walter Langkowski wasn't "just too damn scary" to bed the beautiful Jeanne-Marie Baubier.


He was smart enuff no that it may upset some fans & the gay was the monster lookin-like as well. Thats something Brubaker & Tan didn't take note when he created Darwin (why ever on the look human but the half-black, half-latino).. its just like that.. But I most put the blame of Tan than Bribaker (but I'm not really a fan of his work) because Darwin was atleast this brown/browinish & still had a few human like features  before he started drawing without those features & gery.. But lucky Pad & his art teams came along eventually fix & address the really like Darwin got lighter & etc (his power was unconsciously trying make him fit in around his surrounding.. which was mostly white guys & aliens).. Now he usually look like for the most part :

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1230061-dawin.o_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dawin/105-1230061/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/24656/1010184-darwin_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/darwin/105-1010184/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1230062-dawin.1_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dawin/105-1230062/)

Every member of Alpha Flight was interesting; however, it seemed to me that Northstar was gaining in fan popularity at a faster rate than the others. I remember confirmed Northstar's homosexuality making t.v. national news reports. Looking back on Jean-Paul's earliest civilian appearances, he did seem aloof of the female attention he received. At the time, I chalked it all up to his being an arrogant ass. Eventually however, I did pick up on certain clues - the interaction between himself and Aurora when they both believed Langkowski to have been killed and his "mysterious illness" that appeared to me to be the A.I.D.S. virus at that time.


Good points..

Recently, I learned that the character Shatterstar is homosexual although his creator says he did not create him as such.


Yeah he bi now & probably the best thing to ever happen to him..
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5648/886990-6290_548225925331_164002150_32296180_4342736_n_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/6290_548225925331_164002150_32296180_4342736_n/105-886990/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/1054378-xfactnxos001_page_10sdsd_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/xfactnxos001_page_10sdsd/105-1054378/)

He never been written better imo

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56503/1071309-entertained_large.png) (http://www.comicvine.com/entertained/105-1071309/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/56503/1182704-shat_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/shat/105-1182704/)

These scans are the most attractive illustrations of Bling I"ve seen to date. Like Jessica Jones (who was looking quite fetching legs crossed and wearing bunny slippers) it appears some artists have decided to give Bling a break from the ugly stick.


Very true.. Those last 2 scan of from X-Men Legacy 228-230.. The main plot is Bling! is kidnapped by Emplate (Monet evil older bro) & Rogue try to recuse her..  The art is by Daniel Acuña.
The 1st is from  Dark Avengers/Uncanny X-Men: Utopia #1 art by Marc Silvestri..

Really? Worth investigating in my spare time. Marvel doesn't seem shy about hooking up attractive black female characters with white male characters and at least 2 of those white characters have killed their black female lovers: Calypso/Kraven The Hunter - I believe Kraven killed Calypso. Nekra (black, although her skin is chalk-white)/Grim Reaper - Reaper killed Nekra. Wolverine has kissed Storm once or twice. Misty Knight pregnant and engaged to Danny Rand. Celia Reyes/Hank McCoy. Glory Grant (J.J. Jameson's erstwhile secretary) dated the hispanic characters Hector Ayala and Eduardo Lobo


Its was Kraven The Hunter II/Alyosha Kravinoff  the 1st Kraven the Hunter. crazy.bi-polar son who killed Calypso..

BTW Celia Reyes recently kind of rejoined the X-Men

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/62544/1165759-sans_titre_1_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/sans_titre_1/105-1165759/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/62544/1165760-sans_titre_2_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/sans_titre_2/105-1165760/)

Before that she was seen in NYX : No way home helping out the NYX kids

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/3347/602610-ceci_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/ceci/105-602610/)  (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/18265/645808-cecilia2_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/cecilia2/105-645808/)

I don't follow the mutants anymore, but I do have a vague awareness of the characters. I see an illustration of Dust without her veil. Never saw that before.


That Scan is of Dust in her room talking to her roommate X-23 with the door close. (so no guy saw without it on in that seen)

He another & also the reason why she wears it

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/958710-scan0019_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/scan0019/105-958710/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5599/144175-182767-dust_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/182767-dust/105-144175/)

Knowing Marvel's and the x-writer's penchant for getting their white male characters into the pants of all female characters - white/non-white/extraterrestrial/extra-dimensional, etc...- I expect the rest of Dust's clothes will join her discarded veil and she'll find her completely naked body in the arms of some male X-Man not named Nezhno or Prodigy very soon, if not sooner.


 (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26874/1188121-dustii8_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dustii8/105-1188121/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/10390/390022-127429-dust_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/127429-dust/105-390022/)

Now let you what happen here X-23 knock Dust out & took her Outfit because Dust as about to walk into a trap & was going to killed by the Purifiers.. X-23 try to reason with her & tell her it was trap (Dust gotten a call from Jay Guthrie.. her former teammate/a guy she thought about dating.. he went cut after M-day & let the Purifiers cut off his wings because William Stryker  told him his wings "back to God" his friends would be saved & etc.. He later saw Stryker was lieing called Dust right before WS killed him.. WS wanted him to call her & get to come where they were because she is/was the one of more/most powerfully members of the New X-Men & his plan could only work unless she was dead.. X & her talking later after (I think)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5599/144173-67740-dust_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/67740-dust/105-144173/)

But she rarely takes it off/show with off (that is when she not in her sand from) the only other times I think she did was when she crying to Miss Guthrie about Jay death & during the HoM (where never wore at all because she grew in the US in that Universe..)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/987299-dusttodusts_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dusttodusts/105-987299/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/987300-dusttodustsd_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dusttodustsd/105-987300/)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/33603/987301-dusttodustsds_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/dusttodustsds/105-987301/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/29010/803041-af_6_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/af_6/105-803041/)

  Cool. I hope Prodigy doesn't manage to get himself killed off by an x-writer anytime soon.


I think I'd be little shock if they even took the time out to kill him lol..

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 17, 2010, 12:59:08 am
Sorry it took so long to get back to you SI.

In fairness to the Doctor I don't think BP and company constantly trumped Doom, that honor belongs to Reed and family. Tchalla's scrimmages with Victor were usually too abbreviated to be conclusive.

Doom hasn't bought anything new to the game. Nanites are so 20th century.
Wakandans have a plan for Galactus but none for nanites. This is simply poor plotting.

The problem with S'Yan is he did nothing remotely interesting. No hidden stash of weapons, no fight showing his prowess to such a degree that Doom had to try another tactic. S'Yan didn't so much as save BP's mother's life as he just got himself killed. After S'Yan was shot what was preventing her death? Nothing, Doom just didn't want to kill her. Again poor story telling.

Your ideas and enthusiasm are commendable. Palavers with TPG, vibranium tweaked EMPs. I hope Maberry visits this forum. As far as reconciling the continuity conflict within the BP mythos I would credit Reg for that. I think what Maberry is more responsible for is stated rather well by Mr Majestik.

"When I look at T'Challa now, I see a broken failure of a character stumbling from one disaster to another whilst he's betrayed by his god and left having to rely on the help of others to overcome a foe to whom he's on an equal mental footing with. There's something fundamentally wrong with this picture."

I'm still underwhelmed by the upgrades. I think an intelligently written Black Panther supersedes the need for such. I would prefer Tchalla finding some way to neutralize Doom's magic utilizing his resources prior to the upgrade. The way he used his tech and spiritual connections to handle Mephisto. Something like the thrice blessed armor being highly resistant to magic. The one new idea I did like was vibranium's amplification of mystical energies. Imagine the thrice blessed armor made from that. There has to be more panel time devoted to showing Tchalla's abilities being on par with Victor's.  Again Mr Majestik. "Please forgive my scepticism at Marvel's handling of T'Challa and his world."

A pleasure as always SI.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on May 17, 2010, 07:20:01 am
Again poor story telling.

I hope Maberry visits this forum.



Yeah, he has been absent from HEF as of late...


Where is Maberry?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Shade on May 17, 2010, 07:57:14 am
Again poor story telling.

I hope Maberry visits this forum.



Yeah, he has been absent from HEF as of late...


Where is Maberry?

Well he has been posting in the CBR forums.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 17, 2010, 11:24:32 am
"When I look at T'Challa now, I see a broken failure of a character stumbling from one disaster to another whilst he's betrayed by his god and left having to rely on the help of others to overcome a foe to whom he's on an equal mental footing with. There's something fundamentally wrong with this picture."

See, the trouble is that, nothing in the stories suggests that T’Challa is on an equal footing with Doom. Tony Stark maybe. But not Doom. The character of Doom is on the apex of Marvel’s great villains both in canon and in fan esteem. However, T’Challa is not on the apex of Marvel’s great heroes both in canon and in fan esteem. There is a far better case to be made for T’Challa fighting out of his weight class than challenging a peer. After all T’Challa’s greatest foe is a shirtless steroid abuser. The rest of T’Challa rogues are perennial lackeys when they show up anywhere else. Of course he’s going to have trouble with Doom. Doom’s actually dangerous.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 18, 2010, 12:23:19 am
When Richards fought Doom in FF#200 he was out of his weight class. When Stark battled Doom in IM#s149-150 he was out of his weight class. This was evident by the struggles and statements each made respectively.
When the Black Panther fought Doom in BP#19 though punched twice and in a choke hold, a conclusive "out of his weight class" could not be determined due to Storm's intervention.

<<After all T’Challa’s greatest foe is a shirtless steroid abuser.>> 
That's what they said about Bane and he went on to do great things. ;)

The heaviest criticism levied against Maberry's writing is how inept Tchalla appears. He fights Doom with as much effectiveness as Daredevil.

The actualization of the character's potential and its consistency in story telling is the genesis and foundation of what is to become the character's canon. This starts with the character's origin. A great origin clearly defines the character's most essential core elements.
This is where we find their motivation. Batman's motivation arguably revenge, Spiderman's motivation arguably guilt, Doom's motivation arguably control and Tchalla's motivation arguably obligation. Over the years and with different writers, these motivations evolve and become more complex. These motivations are also able to contextualize into the zeitgeist of the era... war, civil rights, pop culture, etc. So Batman's motivations expands to include control and fear, which then can further expand into mistrust maybe even envy. The tighter the origin, the clearer the motivations that lend themselves to canon.

Tchalla's motivations didn't expand until Priest took the helm. He worked within existing continuity and had a comprehensive grasp of the complexities of Tchalla's motivation. Priest was able to chart its progress. He expanded, adding to obligation, control, fear and burden.  Tchalla began to utilize the resources at his disposal. The Black Panther had reemerged as a formidable and respected superhero.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on May 18, 2010, 01:34:00 pm


The actualization of the character's potential and its consistency in story telling is the genesis and foundation of what is to become the character's canon. This starts with the character's origin. A great origin clearly defines the character's most essential core elements.
This is where we find their motivation. Batman's motivation arguably revenge, Spiderman's motivation arguably guilt, Doom's motivation arguably control and Tchalla's motivation arguably obligation. Over the years and with different writers, these motivations evolve and become more complex. These motivations are also able to contextualize into the zeitgeist of the era... war, civil rights, pop culture, etc. So Batman's motivations expands to include control and fear, which then can further expand into mistrust maybe even envy. The tighter the origin, the clearer the motivations that lend themselves to canon.




You have so many ideas, Ture,  I'd love to read what treatment you'd write in a Black Panther comicbook because right now this DOOMWAR series is less satifying to me as a  Black Panther comicbook reader.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 21, 2010, 10:16:57 am
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Francisco on May 23, 2010, 09:49:55 pm
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...
The Lord of N'Jaka village is no joke. (He is bad T'Challa) The thing is he never had the chance to shine outside of the Pantherverse. I think killing him off was a mistake. He should have showed up first in other books fighting other people (and doing well) and then appearing on the BP series as T'Challa's main bad guy.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 24, 2010, 04:44:15 am
Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw.  The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.

Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on May 24, 2010, 01:04:45 pm
I agree with KIP...bring Klaw back...

But also bring back Killmonger and actually define him...put him on the Raft...let him join the Thunderbolts or something...Marvel's version of Anabisi at the Raft...with 10-15 ton range strength (or more), giving Cage hell...like Anabisi on OZ....None of the Peak human BS...please.  He would be Superhuman...and a genius...and it would show why T'challa had issue with thim...That's part of the issue with T'challa right now...you have fanboys that continue to limit the dude, or place this limatations that they simply do not place on Steve Rogers.


I still think that the best T'challa would simply be Priest upgrade (V-mesh habit, energy daggers, K-card, and the Ghal/Batman thing) with a superhuman upgrade(Speed, Agility, Strength, Reflexes)....put him on Ult. Capt. America level...Just shut up the haters...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 27, 2010, 03:57:08 am

My apologies Battle for not writing sooner. We share similar sentiments regarding Doomwar. I would like to write a treatment for BP and see how some of these ideas might work. Maybe I'll put something together for Fan Fic. Here is something else I was thinking about in my attempt to sophisticate the Black Panther.

The ritual for pantherhood would include detailed mental and spiritual components as well as physical. Not only must one be the best fighter but they must be the most gifted intellectually, and be selected by the Panther spirit to undergo a sacred ordeal.

The line of Bashango would be the longest uninterrupted line of Panthers in Wakandan history. Tchalla would have the distinction of being the first and only one to engage all challengers to the crown on the same day where as prior to him it was spread out over a week.

There would be five levels to Pantherhood, Tchalla would have completed them faster than any other in Wakandan history.

Tchalla wouldn't practice magic per se as much as he would spirituality. The tricks of the trade would be acquired through ritual and communion with the Panther Spirit. Somewhere between Dr. Strange (quantitatively speaking) who uses incantations and ancient artifacts and Odin (qualitatively speaking) who is the power itself. 

To M'Baku and the worshipers of the White Gorilla the ritual is sacrilegious, to others like Solomon Prey it is superannuated. Killmonger would find the ritual otiose.

Just a few ideas, let me know what you think.


I agree with you Francisco and co sign on Seven's suggestions about upgrades.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 27, 2010, 04:06:06 am
Doomwar #4 was another exercise in futility that left me plagued with concerns and questions for our beleaguered Black Panther and his companions.

The Fantastic Four were utterly useless and thus far unnecessary. They brought absolutely nothing to the table. With the exception of Nightcrawler teleporting Tchalla and Shuri neither did the Xmen. Hell, they didn't even bother to show up after issue two. Deadpool didn't high tech his way into Doom's castle via his teleportation device, no sir. He uses the old fashioned disguised my self as a gypsy to get past the guards routine. He made it look easier than the Punisher did years ago. Again this was superfluous.

A couple of questions that begs the asking are... Why hasn't Tchalla called in some of his eighty thousand troops? Where are the Hatut Zeraze and their much needed cloaking technology? Without cloaks you're just wasting Dora Milaje. Doomwar could have easily been done utilizing just the characters from Black Panther. It would have made the story more personal and given a greater sense of authenticity to war between Tchalla and Victor.

The best thing about Doomwar #4 for Tchalla was the alternate Heroic Age cover. If I have to see another picture of Tchalla hunched over face down, while his less experienced, intellectually inferior younger sister explains warfare to him I don't know what I'll do. The writer and editors are bitching Tchalla, threatening his marriage and decimating his nation. And for what?  To give us Doomwar. The only reason that is plausible to me lies in the way Reg (and Priest before him) wrote Black Panther. Tchalla an indomitable genius, physically peak human (perhaps super human) prep master who is almost always triumphant (as a hero is supposed to be), married to the powerful and unremitting Storm, while living in an unconquered Afrakan country that happens to be one of the most advanced nations on earth. I think a few somebodies were not very satisfied with these happenings and decided not tolerate it any longer. They probably surmised the best way to dismantle the Black Panther was to have him fight the unbeatable foe. They concocted a story line, hired a writer and gave us Doomwar.

For all those who complained about Reg not adhering to continuity where are those voices now that Doomwar ignores the fact that Wakanda could take Latveria, which means taking Doom.
 
I keep reading how the Black Panther needs this challenge. How he needs a villain by which to measure himself by. If the converse is true then Doom is being jipped big time.

What is meant by Wakanda's cultural arrogance? How did it bring them to the brink?

Why aren't Tchalla and Ororo King and Queen respectively?  Shuri was not sanctioned by the Panther spirit. Tchalla has fully recovered from his injuries and he and Ororo are still married.

Why the focus on Shuri? At best she is a good support character with some potential.

Why does Shuri refer to Ben and Johnny as Mr. Grim and Mr. Storm while she (a princess regent) is called by her first name?

Is Tchalla's only hope of winning this war tackling Victor through an open door that leads to another universe?

Aside from Scott Eaton's great art work and Maberry's well written Doom I am left with nothing but questions.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 27, 2010, 12:39:44 pm
"Giving a Power Ring to John Stewart is like giving an old lady the keys to the Batmobie." I happened upon this ridiculous comment while scanning opinions posted to that other forum. The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members.

And yet, in the opinion of more than a few members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, John Stewart is somehow less deserving than Rayner and Gardner of wielding a Power Ring. Many of those same members are likely of the opinion that Jericho Drumm's ascension to Sorcerer Supreme is just so much Affirmative Action nonsense placing the under-qualified Drumm in a position best served by the white Dr. Stephen Strange. I see DC's character Firestorm is once again a white male, the black male relegated to the subordinate position/condition.

Any opinion holding that John Stewart is unqualified to wield a Power Ring obviously has no basis in fact. Hal Jordan - who most might claim to be the greatest Green Lantern - has conceded that Stewart's Ring constructs are more solid than his own and that Stewart is not only superior to him as a flyer, but is the best of the entire Corps. That "fan's" opinion stems from the type of prejudice and bias which all too often is the basis for the obnoxious, inaccurate, stupid comments which serve to diminish not only John Stewart, but Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Bishop, and many other Black comicbook characters.

T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence. Keep bringing it strong, Ture. Your comments as always, are right on point.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: The Cat on May 27, 2010, 12:48:34 pm
Interesting post Ture. I made a rant over at cbr pretty much about the same thing...  ;)

I'm got to admit that I'm almost done with Marvel. I do salute those African writers who have tried to bring Marvel into the 21st Century, despite the constant problems which came there way. But it is always difficult to engage and change the personalty of a thing, when it was devised to uphold and reinforce another peoples culture.

It's a shame really that the Milestone effort from a few years age was not able to get more fans. Because when it comes down to how we are presented in this medium. The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman ( and I  am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms"  >:( )
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 27, 2010, 01:23:15 pm
The Fantastic Four were utterly useless and thus far unnecessary. They brought absolutely nothing to the table.

Aside from preventing Shuri from committing suicide by Namor, Richards was able to defeat Doom's/Declun's video ruse which had Shuri and her team chasing shadows. Richards was able to show Shuri Namor had been framed. Richards, Thing, and Torch did accompany Namor, Shuri and her team to confront Declun's diversionary team and presently, while Richards assists T'Challa in strategy  ::) the Invisible Girl has joined the Torch and the Thing in fighting alongside Shuri, Storm, and the Dora Milaje against Doom's foot soldiers.

Quote
With the exception of Nightcrawler teleporting Tchalla and Shuri neither did the Xmen. Hell, they didn't even bother to show up after issue two.


Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Colossus did contribute in the effort by supporting Shuri in engaging Doom's forces inside what had previously been the Desturi stronghold. Of course, and unfortunately, Doom had foreseen these events, planned for them and had already acquired the Vibranium before T'Challa was able to make his way to the vault. Maberry is writing an infuriating story to be sure. And he's obviously enjoying himself. Doom had better lose his left eye when this is all over. That's my thinking on it.

Quote
Deadpool didn't high tech his way into Doom's castle via his teleportation device, no sir. He uses the old fashioned disguised my self as a gypsy to get past the guards routine. He made it look easier than the Punisher did years ago. Again this was superfluous.

Personally, I wish Deadpool hadn't been used at all. I've never liked the character, don't find him the least bit funny or entertaining and I can't help but feel that T'Challa has been even further diminished by having to enlist his aid. Maberry is writing a story the larger comicbook-reading demographic can thoroughly enjoy, but one which has rankled many hardcore Black Panther fans. The story shows a T'Challa in a position many writers with the exception of Hudlin have often put him in, which is getting the shiznit kicked out of him. Wakanda has been ripped apart by traitors and what many white fans have inaccurately remarked time and again, their "racist xenophobia". This isn't a Black Panther story. This is a Dr. Doom story and that is one very significant reason why so many in the larger comicbook-reading demographic are supporting the series.

Quote
A couple of questions that begs the asking are... Why hasn't Tchalla called in some of his eighty thousand troops? Where are the Hatut Zeraze and their much needed cloaking technology? Without cloaks you're just wasting Dora Milaje. Doomwar could have easily been done utilizing just the characters from Black Panther. It would have made the story more personal and given a greater sense of authenticity to war between Tchalla and Victor.

Was the Hatut Zeraze ever mentioned or featured during Hudlin's run? Did Hunter ever make an appearance? I have to think those elements have not been added to the story for clarity's sake.

Quote
The writer and editors are bitching Tchalla, threatening his marriage and  decimating his nation. And for what?  To give us Doomwar.

WELL SAID, TURE! Too many T'Challa haters love seeing him humbled, would love to see Storm leave her marriage to T'Challa childless so that (a) she can either become Yukio's lesbian lover, so that (b) she can become yet another woman in the MU (Yukio included) impregnated by Wolverine, or both. Black Power, Black Beauty don't sit well with many within the larger comicbook-reading demographic and that's why the Black Panther has been hindered and hated for so long.


Quote
The only reason that is plausible to me lies in the way Reg (and Priest before him) wrote Black Panther. Tchalla an indomitable genius, physically peak human (perhaps super human) prep master who is almost always triumphant (as a hero is supposed to be), married to the powerful and unremitting Storm, while living in an unconquered Afrakan country that happens to be one of the most advanced nations on earth. I think a few somebodies were not very satisfied with these happenings and decided not tolerate it any longer. They probably surmised the best way to dismantle the Black Panther was to have him fight the unbeatable foe. They concocted a story line, hired a writer and gave us Doomwar.


The only way I could see the larger comicbook-reading demographic accepting the type of Black Panther you've described and married to Storm is if that Black Panther was a blonde-haired/blue-eyed aryan underneath his Panther's cowl. Black popular music has appealed to white audiences for decades. It has crossed over and once enough white artists mastered that particular Black-created genre of music, white audiences appropriated and expropriated the music. The comicbook industry was created by and remains dominated by whites. While the media has crossover appeal to many in the Black community, it isn't such that might sustain Black characters...Black characters who have we have seen, do not always cross over to white readers, unless that character is someone like Storm whom more than a few white readers do not consider Black, but an amalgam of all races based upon some stupid story written by C. Claremont.

I'd better quit. I seem to be on the verge of becoming "exercised".

Quote
Aside from Scott Eaton's great art work and Maberry's well written Doom I am left with nothing but questions.


Eaton's artwork is outstanding. Maberry's writing is enjoyable although it is telling a story that hasn't left me with questions as much as it has left me becoming increasingly irritated.

[/quote]
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 27, 2010, 02:50:37 pm
Couple of points I wanna make here, guys.

Firstly, the Fantastic Four has never stood on ceremony with T’Challa and have always called him by his first name, so there’d be no reason for them to stand on ceremony with Shuri. And for her part, the FF are her brother’s oldest friends so she’d naturally afford them a certain amount of respect.

The Hatut Zeraze haven’t been an issue since Priest left the book. While they were shown in the Yost-penned Storm mini but that was plainly an error, since T’Challa clearly kicked them out of Wakanda during Priest’s run.

As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).

While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).

While Doom’s taken over Wakanda by proxy, the Panthers took it back two days later. Doom stole the Vibranium. In the newest issue of Doomwar we learn that the Panthers and the F.F. are destroying Doom’s bases all over the world. Doom’s waxing the good guys’ forces. T’Challa got something for that too: an unkillable psycho assassin and a dangerous new type of physics.

This fight is not all that one sided.              
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 27, 2010, 08:36:29 pm
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...
The Lord of N'Jaka village is no joke. (He is bad T'Challa) The thing is he never had the chance to shine outside of the Pantherverse. I think killing him off was a mistake. He should have showed up first in other books fighting other people (and doing well) and then appearing on the BP series as T'Challa's main bad guy.

I agree with KIP...bring Klaw back...

But also bring back Killmonger and actually define him...put him on the Raft...let him join the Thunderbolts or something...Marvel's version of Anabisi at the Raft...with 10-15 ton range strength (or more), giving Cage hell...like Anabisi on OZ....None of the Peak human BS...please.  He would be Superhuman...and a genius...and it would show why T'challa had issue with thim...That's part of the issue with T'challa right now...you have fanboys that continue to limit the dude, or place this limatations that they simply do not place on Steve Rogers.

I really wouldn't call what RH did as killing him off per say. He kind of dead & kind of alive at the same time imo.. (I also think that was best place to put KM for now).. Also he easy brought back & their already in story reason on how to do so (some of his followers give up there life energy put it in him & he go as new.. like in CJP run)... I would personally bring him back in the way CJP did but with a few MUCH needed revelations (not a recton).. The  revelation who explain why T'Challa has had so much trouble fighting/hand-to-hand-wise with a someone who really shouldn't be but a lil stronger than Hawkeye (who T'Challa 2 or 3 time as strong as with his Bast powers)..  

The revelations would be the Bat de-powered T'Challa strength wise during McGregor ( :P) run (explain he wrote T'Challa getting his ass beat ALL the time) & That only reason Killmonger can fight T'Challa (with full Bast powers like in CJP & RH runs) & not have T'Challa break off his arm & put where the sum don't shine is because more of his ppl who give up there like energy for to come back from dead the more powerfully he is..  Like if 10-15 ppl give up there lives to bring him back than goes from human/peak human to about Class 10-15.. If  20-25 of his followers give him there life energy Class 20-25...If 30-35 ppl then he becomes 30-35 class & so on..    

Also we learn that Killmonger had a 2nd/another Altar of Resurrection/Resurrection Altar build in the N'Jadaka village/tribe area in Wakanda.  Also another good idea imo is to have look at how lost to T'Challa & say that not way beat him & have got at him in a different way. Such having him focus on making the N'Jadaka tribe stronger & trying to grain favor with the Bast so that he have most powerfully tribe in  Wakanda & getting in the position the BP (protector/figure-head of the hold nation)..  

That helps both characters imo & add that with his intellect/charisma & its make KM all the better/cooler..

Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw.  The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.

Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.

I agree..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 28, 2010, 04:28:10 am
<<The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members>>

Something to keep in mind; it is something comic book fans tend to forget, myself included.  Just because Hal said it, doesn't make it true.  Hal is just a human in the book who is speaking about a friend and someone he respects.  He can be wrong.  He could be downplaying his own strengths and he doesn't know each and every member of the Corps so he can't actually say John's the best flier.

If a Guardian said these things it has more weight.  If the All-knowing narrator says these things, it has more weight, but when a character says it, it's his opinion at that time (under that writer), but it doesn't make it so.

What makes it so is when nearly every writer of these characters writes them this way.  If they don't, it's not necessarily true.

(This is something I've been thinking about Wakanda; how much of Wakandan glory is reality and how much is hype?  But that's another post.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 28, 2010, 05:49:55 am
Couple of points I wanna make here, guys.

Firstly, the Fantastic Four has never stood on ceremony with T’Challa and have always called him by his first name, so there’d be no reason for them to stand on ceremony with Shuri. And for her part, the FF are her brother’s oldest friends so she’d naturally afford them a certain amount of respect.

I can some what agree with this, but I all can understand why some ppl would have a prob with that because Shuri is not T'Challa ... So I see she wanting to called by her title by ppl she herself aren't that close with.. 

As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).

I can some what agree with this, but I don't see how ''we hate outsiders lots/cultural arrogance'' has effected DoomWar/what it has to do with DoomWar.. ???

This fight is not all that one sided.              

Well currently come off as more sided then evenly match.. Also a few things are coming off as unnecessary, forced & inconstant..

Heres a few things that are & even used a few of you own examples :

the FF are her brother’s oldest friends

Inconsistent

Why is T'Challa telling Reed they lost contact with his friends.. Now I don't know about John, but I petty sure T'Challa consider Ben & Sue along with Reed as friends..Also it been show as such previously up to this point.. NOT a huge thing but still inconstant.

Doom’s taken over Wakanda by proxy,

Inconsistent

When did this happen? Because take over the house of T'Challa/T'Chaka/Panther cult/tribe DOESN'T = talking over all of Wakanda.. It (Panther tribe maybe the best/strongest), but their 17 other tribes that need take over for all of  Wakanda to be taken over.. Doom with un-loyalist help took over the Panther Clut not all of  Wakanda.. I think that a prob alot written have which they either don't get or know or understand that all Wakandans don't live in the Panther cult/tribe area of Wakanda/ that there other ppl in Wakanda beside the members of the Panther cult/tribe.. 

Forced & Inconsistent

That whole Bast/Doom convo

Bast characterization was/is way off

Unnecessary, Forced & Inconsistent

S'yan showing up out of no where just to get shot/maybe die/badly injured (again) Especially when one of the main prob./complaints with the BP book has having a stable & consistent supporting cast.. So ur answer to this is to maybe kill/hurt badly one of the few consistent one that still has alot to offer the myths.. Like I've said before if just want to kill off/ hurt a supporting cast member who story petty much done/does have alot to offer anymore.. Such as : Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru & Omoro.. But If is dead I have easy/good way for Zuri & him come back.. If any write wants to use it I won't sue..

Forced & Unnecessary

Emps all of Wakanda/taking it back to the Dark Ages.. Are honestly supposed to believe that 2 of marvel top smartest (Reed & T'Challa) couldn't figure out a way to defeat the Nanites of another member of that top 8 (Doom)? That was just a lil to much for me.. But let go with it.. If there going then their should been a lil bit back & forth between T'Challa, Storm & Shuri deciding what to do.. Just a few pages & not the rush job we got thur the recap pages.. Now if T'Challa told go ahead & do because always make/build Big W tech better/rebuild the big W even better then it wouldn't come off as forced & unnecessary, but so far that not the case.. Atleast so far...
 
Inconsistent & Forced

T'Challa, Ororo & Shuri forgetting that they have other ppl in the nation that can fight other than the DM & mwany of there other allies   

the Panthers took it back two days later. Doom stole the Vibranium. In the newest issue of Doomwar we learn that the Panthers and the F.F. are destroying Doom’s bases all over the world. Doom’s waxing the good guys’ forces. T’Challa got something for that too: an unkillable psycho assassin and a dangerous new type of physics.

So those are few reasons this fight has came off one sided... Atleast imo

This I agree with...

While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).

I don't think any saying he  ordinary mark or that he isn't the 1 or 2 marvel villain in marvel.. Now Correct me I'm wrong but that problem many having it the way T'Challa, Ororo & Wakanda are being written..

For me personalty I'm at the point where I need this story to make up it mind on what it actually is.

Is it : Doom with the help un-HOT loyalist taking over the The Panther tribe for a few days (what being  written on the pages for the most part imo) or Is It : Doom with the un-HOT loyalist taking over all of Wakanda/the hole nation of Wakanda (what this story 1st mention to be & some what been said on the pages)...  Now if the 1st, then way T'Challa & Wakanda some what more tolerable, but if it 2nd it make him look kind stupid.. So personality i need this story to give straight answer on which it is.. If the 1st option than its been ok , but if its the 2nd this whole series has been half ass..

This is why : let say Doom with the Desturi take over Wakanda & T'Challa & etc took it back & are not going to war with Doom..  Then :

1. Where is the rest of the Wakanda Army/ground forces/front lines forces? (T'Challa now using the any his resources make him look stupid).. I love the DM, but Wakanda has got more ppl that are good at frighting then them.. 

2. Where is Ka-Zar (& the She-Devil) - the person T'Challa & Ororo singed agreement JUST for this type of thing (some try to take over either country & try to take the Vibranium).. T'Challa & Ororo forgetting that singed a agreement for this very thing make them look dumb imo..
                                           
3.  If Doom actually took over Wakanda then where are piss off leaders/reps for other 17 tribes? I know that they all don't get along time/like T'Challa all the time, but i this D & D taking over W are we honestly supposed to believe that no 1 wants to go kick his @ss as much Shuri does.. Honestly? Also this would be a perfect time to create some new characters that actually service a good purpose (Show who the leaders of the Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult & etc..What they plan to do about Desturi/Doom & them combining their efforts with T'Challa in some way & make references to old characters coming back (QDJ to takeover the White Gorilla at some point after DoomWar)...       
 
So the problem is not Doom being bad ass its T'Challa being written as if he's forgotten half of his resources is this actually supposed to be a War .. Now if this was more personalty conflict (such as Doom just take over the Panther tribe) then I understand T'Challa & some of the other Leaders/reps not getting together one this or Ka-Zar not coming to help out, but other wise this kind off...
 
I don't think Cage or Cloak & Dagger battle with him were rectoned in being Doombots.. (just mentioning)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 28, 2010, 06:43:09 am


The ritual for pantherhood would include detailed mental and spiritual components as well as physical. Not only must one be the best fighter but they must be the most gifted intellectually, and be selected by the Panther spirit to undergo a sacred ordeal.

This have a problem with.. I like that for most part we know what set most of the BPs a part from each other & I see no need for everyone to be a genius/super genius.. The ones we know about (Azzari, T'Chaka, S'Yan, T'Challa & Shuri)

Azzari - VERY wise (maybe a combination his Panther powers & the way his mind work let some waht see the future.. more or less ), very smart, was married & used the DM.

T'Chaka - biggest heart, strongest physical (maybe) usually drawn to a bigger man than T'Challa who's listed at about 6'0/6'1.. So I'd say he was atleast 6'3,  didn't used the DM, married twice (N'Yami & Ramonda), has most kids, started the Hatut Zeraze.. Had lot of loss & death effected his life alot & his decsion making..

S'yan - the fastest/swiftest, not as strong his older brother, but made for with speed & book smarts (but not a genius/super genius either), used the DM, more than likely used the Hatut Zeraze also, I'm leaning toward never married, good father to T'Challa & Shuri but to T'Shan not so much.. Some times comes off as blaming himself for his older bro. death (which probably why he help raised up his kids better than his own one).. I'd personality reveal that T'Shan is the son of S'yan & Aneka.. Think Star Wars Anakin Skywalker/Padmé Amidala just without the death & etc.. Meaning they dated & like each other, but couldn't be together because of there roles/duties for there nation.. (I could go into more detail, but  I won't useless some wants me to/wants to know more)

T'Challa - wise like Azzari, but not as wise, big heart/nice like father, but to a point where it hurt him as it did T'Chaka, the best fighter/hand-to-hand combat, smart like his uncle, just at a super genius level/smarter (which would some what explain why they but heads at times) making him the smartest ever to be the BP, used the DM, married (but change the way they rules  of the system), I think wants kids & we know the rest 

Shuri- very aggressive, has alot to live up to, started her own group (P.R.I.D.E.),  some what uses the DM, not a genius/super genius, but average/maybe a lil above average in smart area..

So yeah I'd don't like the idea of them all needing genius/super genius or etc..

Also this is another idea of mine if I were to ever right BP for marvel, I'd make the BP before Azzari the wise.. Azzari's mother/T'Challa great-grandmother.. but that just me...   
   

There would be five levels to Pantherhood, Tchalla would have completed them faster than any other in Wakandan history.

This sounds interesting what would they be... Can you go into more details?




Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 28, 2010, 11:25:52 pm
Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw.  The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.

Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.

I just wanted to point out for the interested that Klaw makes an appearance in the Dazzler one shot that came out this week.

Dazzer disposes of him in two pages.

T'Challa's arch foe, Ladies and Gents.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 28, 2010, 11:28:46 pm
This week's Doomwar quotable brought to you by...
Sinjection1 - “T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence.”
and by...
The Cat - "The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman (and I am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms").”

Great post, to you both. I noticed a similar occurrence when discussing Star Trek Sinjection1. Due to the complexity of the plot, character maturation and developmental scope, DS9 is arguably the best Star Trek. When this is debated most of the people contesting the opinion have either a) never watched the show or b) only viewed a few episodes. Comments range from “I couldn't get into it.” to “It deviated from the original too much.” Being in a circle of sci-fi and comic heads who don't do PC some of them said they couldn't get into a black captain whose acting was poor. Black is one thing but poor acting is something you just can't accuse Avery Brooks of.

Sinjection1, what I am trying to emphasize about the Fantastic Four, XMen and Deadpool is that everything they did could have been done by the Black Panther or some other Wakandan. Some examples follow.

Tchalla could have prevented Shuri from committing suicide by Namor. That would have at least given Tchalla an excuse to converse with Namor.  The video ruse could have been handled by Taku, thus reminding Shuri and her scientist N'iix why Tchalla and his core of specialist are the best. Tchalla could have developed a means to teleport them into the palace or at least show them a secret passage.

I found little evidence of Reed's acumen in strategy. In the fight against Doom's foot soldiers in Doomwar #4, the FF with their much vaunted powers were not very effective. Sue was overwhelmed by two Doombots 3rd panel page 2. Ben was knocked out cold by page 4 and Johnny had to be saved by Storm page 1.

The XMen. Ahhhh, the XMen. They did some cutting, they did some punching, they even blocked a few bullets. Every little bit helps I guess. I personally think Shuri and the Dora Milaje looked more impressive. Again what the XMen brought to the war the Wakandans could match, even an underwritten Tchalla did as much.

Tchalla vs Mephisto, no help required. Tchalla engaging the Hulk, no assistance asked for. Tchalla vs the Silver Surfer no abetting. Any and all assistance required came from his own resources. However when it comes to Doomwar Tchalla's in a last desperate act must unleash... the N'Yami battle cruisers, no. The Prowlers? No. Some new technology? No. Deadpool.

The Dora Milaje army was never mentioned during Reg's run. Aneka never made an appearance. Are these elements making the story less clear?

They have already proofed those waters Sinjection1, just peruse the third volume of the Ultimates. In this the post racial era we need no longer concern ourselves with ethnic and cultural identity. Yes in this era our evolved sensibilities permit a dalliance with the genome. We can envision a white man being the Black Panther. After all a “black” child can be Annie. One day soon we may even see a “black” Kryptonian donning the S crest. Everyone reading this please know I am being highly sarcastic.

Being a little more serious, we started this confusion when we allowed ourselves to be defined by the misnomers and parameters set by others. For example, slaves were not taken from Afraka, Afrakans were taken from Afraka. These ethnic families (a few of whom are mentioned) included the Yoruba, the Ibo, Hausa, Fulani not coloreds, negros or blacks. This is something that the general populace, many of us and the general comic book reader/buyer may not comprehend the full extent of the complexities involved.

Like you Sinjection1 I'd better quit. I too seem to be on the verge of becoming “exercised”.

Hey Vic, I have to co sign with 4sake on your first comment. You are correct that Tchalla has removed the Hatut Zeraze from Wakanda but  Hunter being the loyalist fanatic he is, would most definitely have involved himself in something as serious as the war with Doom. As for the cultural arrogance like 4sake said “I don't see how ''we hate outsiders lots/cultural arrogance'' has effected DoomWar/what does it has to do with DoomWar? It is not about exalting the Black Panther as much as it is about keeping the consistency necessary for a protracted conflict between Tchalla and Victor. Tchalla's personality and demeanor, his preparation and cunning are all off.

Good points about Killmonger 4sake. Excellent breakdowns on the inconsistencies. In regards to the ritual I was trying to suggest some sophistication about how an advance nation such as Wakanda would choose its leadership. It would seem illogical if only the best physical fighter was chosen to rule. When I complete the outline on the five levels I will post them.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 29, 2010, 04:39:46 am
<<Being in a circle of sci-fi and comic heads who don't do PC some of them said they couldn't get into a black captain whose acting was poor. Black is one thing but poor acting is something you just can't accuse Avery Brooks of.>>

You need to find other sci-fi fans.  The guys I've associated with (even being in a ST club) and while they're all white, most consider DS9 to be the best series of the modern ST era.  (The original always gets points for nostaligia.). But everyone loved Brooks.  I never heard a negative word about him.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 29, 2010, 05:25:46 am
<<I just wanted to point out for the interested that Klaw makes an appearance in the Dazzler one shot that came out this week.Dazzer disposes of him in two pages.T'Challa's arch foe, Ladies and Gents.>>

Ah, Dazzler is Klaw's kryptonite, but this is why I said Klaw needs to be revamped.  Besides,  being beat all the time and by silly means hasn't stopped Dr. Doom from being the most popular bad guy.  (Most popular villains probably suffer from the same thing, especially since they're supposed to loose.  Remember Kazar beating Thanos?  Use of Doombot-style storytelling fixed that, but still it was written as if it was serious.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on May 29, 2010, 05:40:57 am
Well, I'm also on the Trektoday boards and I see occasional negative comments about Brooks, his acting, and I've heard it said more than once that people, generally white I am assuming, who have said over the years that they couldn't get into DS9 but not adequately explain why they couldn't. To be fair, there are a lot of people, many white I am assuming, who loved DS9 and liked Brooks as Sisko. I also had a black friend back in the day who loved TNG and just couldn't get into DS9.

But one thing I've noticed keeps coming up from time to time at Trektoday is this idea that Sisko was racist for not wanting to go into a holodeck program based on a 1960s club that likely would've discriminated against blacks, or that Sisko shouldn't have African art, or criticized Sisko for dating only black women (granted the last two mainly came from one guy, on his website, whom I won't name; he didn't have much to say when I pointed out that every Trek captain, with the exception of Archer, and possible exception of Kirk, dated within their racial group; even with Kirk he was forced to kiss Uhura, he was being mind-controlled by the Asiatic woman in the Elaan of Troyius episode, and he had amnesia or something when he was Kirok and had a child with the Native American woman). But the one about the holodeck has come up on the Trektoday boards.

I've also read about criticism about Brooks interjecting and altering the end of DS9. The original intention was to kill him off, but Brooks didn't like the idea of black man leaving his family behind, expressed his views and a compromise was made, to send him away with the promise that he would return. Some fans, generally white, I'm assuming didn't understand why this was a big deal and seem to believe that Trek is a legitimate vision of the future where race doesn't play a role at all. I've never bought this idea. To me, Trek is a show about today, but using the future setting to minimize controversy. But some fans felt that Brooks was injecting race into the show regardless.

There has also been discussion of Sisko's acting. I think there was some moments that were odd, some facial expressions. I personally think Avery Brooks wasn't too keen on the character initially, but grew into him over time. When he shaved his head, I thought he took ownership of the character and Sisko became a great captain in his own right.

Race might have played a factor in all the anti-DS9 criticisms as well as the support. Sisko being black did make me want to support the show even before it really gelled. Sisko was the first black character to head a Trek show, and to my knowledge a sci-fi show, and one of the few to head a drama. Though DS9 has been off the air over a decade now, Sisko remains at or near the top in terms of a fully developed black character in sci-fi, and sadly, in all of TV.

There might have been other things besides race that led to anti-DS9 sentiment. Perhaps Trek fatigue, at the time DS9 came out, TNG was wrapping up, and then they went to the movies which ran concurrently with DS9. Also, DS9 barely had any time alone as the Trek series before VOY came on the air and a lot of promotion and attention went to it. Also, I think the change from the ship-based TNG to the station-based DS9 is a reason some cite for not getting into the show. They felt it wasn't enough about exploration, which shows that they didn't watch the show all that much, because it had a fair amount of exploration. I'm sure that some people didn't care for the DS9 characters, Sisko and the others, because they occupied more gray areas than the TNG characters, though it is this reason that I came to really like the DS9 characters. I also loved the Dominion and DS9 taking on issues of war, genocide, nation building, racism, religious fanaticism, etc. It was a show ahead of its time and was the true heir to TOS IMO. Another thing DS9 had to contend with was more competition, particularly from shows like B5. VOY and ENT also had to face stiff competition in a way that TNG didn't. TNG was largely allowed to build up an audience without having to compete against other genre shows, because there were very few during the majority of its run.

I can't help but feel that some white fans don't like Sisko because of Avery Brooks. I think there is a feeling that Brooks is too remote, that he's not all ra-ra about DS9 and that turns some fans off. He's not dissing the show, but he's not waxing poetic about it either, IMO. And when a black person isn't smiling and going 110% in cheerleading something, it might make some white people feel that Brooks has an attitude. I also do feel that Sisko being black turned off some fans. They might not even realize why they don't 'get' Sisko, but I think its because of the inability of some whites to identify with a black character. They can't see blacks as equals, as fully dimensional human beings. Some might be able to admire physical feats or singing or blacks abilities to entertain them, but they still aren't putting these people on the same plane as they are. And for the intellectual blacks, they are often seen as 'exceptions'.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 29, 2010, 07:35:50 am
The sci-fi fans I mentioned are ok Kip, as the majority like DS9. The few who don't are entitled to an incorrect opinion  ;). I didn't go into a lot of depth about it but fortunately Emperorjones did. My gratitude and praise to the emperor, I could not have worded it better.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 29, 2010, 12:37:52 pm

I can't help but feel that some white fans don't like Sisko because of Avery Brooks. I think there is a feeling that Brooks is too remote, that he's not all ra-ra about DS9 and that turns some fans off. He's not dissing the show, but he's not waxing poetic about it either, IMO. And when a black person isn't smiling and going 110% in cheerleading something, it might make some white people feel that Brooks has an attitude. I also do feel that Sisko being black turned off some fans. They might not even realize why they don't 'get' Sisko, but I think its because of the inability of some whites to identify with a black character. They can't see blacks as equals, as fully dimensional human beings. Some might be able to admire physical feats or singing or blacks abilities to entertain them, but they still aren't putting these people on the same plane as they are. And for the intellectual blacks, they are often seen as 'exceptions'.

black person isn't smiling and going 110% in cheerleading something, it might make some white people feel that Brooks has an attitude.


Yep, I've seen alot of that kind of thinking on few comics broad I've posted on.. Like black fans should be just happy/down right joyfully that T'Challa, Cage, & etc even app. on panel.. How dare we complain if they well written or not or drawn well or not or etc.. Because its a medium (what they mean is a medium for them.)..

They can't see blacks as equals, as fully dimensional human beings. they still aren't putting these people on the same plane as they are.

Same ways for many of the characters :

I seen a poster say basically if Cage didn't have his powers that he would a bum barley fit to pump said poster gas.. While a guy Steve R would be same with or without powers.. some how I think going from like 5'8-5'10 98-125 pounds to 6'2/6'3 helped  220-240 help Steve a whole alot because without his powers he more than likely be a struggle artist (Steve like to drawn/doing art)..But that just me..

That its ridiculous, must have some something to with affirmative action, forced, race baiting, reverse racism for T'Challa to consider one of the smartest ppl in the marvel u by marvel (top 8 ) & being just as smart reed & doom when SL & JK created him as atleast smart as if not smarter than Reed: making him 3rd smartest at a minimum.. Personally I find it petty ''funny''  Tony S., Hank Pym, B.Banner & etc have all written as getting smarter over the years while T'Challa got dumb down for a while..  Maybe some writers (like some fans) just found to hard to believe a person of color be that smart or actually equal..

Also that Jericho Drumm becoming Sorcerer Supreme had something to with Obama becoming Prez in real life lol... :D Even thought hints/seeds of Dr. Strange losing the tilte/role started around off & on around 2005..   

Also I find it ''interesting'' the only writer I ever seen out rite accused as raciest/of racism by fans just happen all be RH, CJP, D-Mc & G.Pak (all non-whites 3 Black & 1 Asian).. The one white writer I seen some indirectly accused as being raciest/of racism by fans is BMB because his use of Cage & Doc V..
 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on May 29, 2010, 01:17:54 pm
Thanks guys. What I noticed about some responses to Sisko was that him being proud to be black was considered racist, and him being cognizant of his racial heritage as being unnecessary, something to get over, or that Brooks had a chip on his shoulder. I can only chalk this up to a view I personally think many whites hold that black people truly have nothing to be proud of, unless its tied to them in some fashion.

On the surface there might be a fear, I don't really believe in white guilt, of talking about the past will indict white people and its something they don't want to hear, because it interferes with the wonderful image beamed about white people from almost every segment of the media. Slavery, segregation, etc. is something that has to be seen as 'ancient' history and something only done by a very small segment of white extremists. If you hear some white folks tell it, no one white benefited from slavery, all of their ancestors came from elsewhere or came after slavery. And black people shouldn't exhibit any sense of anger over the past. Which is funny that it's perfectly okay to cheer Braveheart or the Patriot loping off the heads of Englishmen, or Jews blowing the Nazis to hell, but I doubt we would get the same reaction if there was a movie about Nat Turner or the Haitian revolution. Of course the only way those movies could be made in America was to base them around a white character-real or imagined.

The feeling I get from some of the sighing about black history is that black people should just forget about it some white people might say or think, and blacks should be happy they are here. Because our pain isn't as worthy as others, our experiences are valued less, as have been our lives.


Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 29, 2010, 04:22:56 pm
Sinjection1, what I am trying to emphasize about the Fantastic Four, XMen and Deadpool is that everything they did could have been done by the Black Panther or some other Wakandan. Some examples follow.


True the only thing the (X-Men or Deadpool) that a one of the other Wakandan characters (not name T'Challa can/could do) is maybe bring more sale/marve more money with 1 of the reasins their here. But key to bring in guest stars is balance (between sales & in story reasons & etc)

Tchalla could have prevented Shuri from committing suicide by Namor. That would have at least given Tchalla an excuse to converse with Namor.  The video ruse could have been handled by Taku, thus reminding Shuri and her scientist N'iix why Tchalla and his core of specialist are the best.


I agree & another key charchers missing form all this is Namor, I don't know wasn't going with marvel, but if anyone should be here (in DoomWar) its him.. 

Tchalla could have developed a means to teleport them into the palace or at least show them a secret passage.
I think Kurt was one only X-Men who was used petty well, but its goes back the balance where you don't have the guest showing so the main stars. So yeah T"Challa showing them a secret passage in the place he build would better, but ALOT of the story seem rush. So who know maybe he did.. Tie-in wouldn't help this story out alot..   

In the fight against Doom's foot soldiers in Doomwar #4, the FF with their much vaunted powers were not very effective. Sue was overwhelmed by two Doombots 3rd panel page 2. Ben was knocked out cold by page 4 and Johnny had to be saved by Storm page 1.
 

This I don't mind villain gota win some of the early rounds in a battle/war for the story to work..

The XMen. Ahhhh, the XMen. They did some cutting, they did some punching, they even blocked a few bullets. Every little bit helps I guess. I personally think Shuri and the Dora Milaje looked more impressive. Again what the XMen brought to the war the Wakandans could match, even an underwritten Tchalla did as much.
For the most part X-Men were also very missed used in this series also (atleast so far)..

1st you want to break want break Storm out of jail & you don't bring Gambit (who she has a closer friendship with that Kurt & Logan.. atleast imo)- 1st misuse or should I say lack of use (It helps in pick guest stars that make most in story sense to in place)

In Both BP (Volume 3) & Wolverine (Volume 3)- Logan & T'Challa have been shown to respect each other, atleast like each where maybe one day be friends (I'd say T'Challa has more of a relasionship with Logan then he has with John S... but that just me. Not saying he doesn't like Hohn,but just that they really don't have anything to talk about or anything that make then be friends that than T'Challa being friends with other 3 members of the FF) - But they barley talked acted in DoomWar.. Also we didn't she  any other the X-Men (Kurt, Peter, Logan & Ororo talk after she was freed.) But like said the couldn't help this series alot because a few thing seem very rushed.. - So misuse # 2 (Guest are supposed to remind the read just how cool/bad ass/what they like/respect about main stars & should atleast be shown taking care of the goal/task they were brought in the story in the 1st place)

Piotr - After Magik/Illyana, is Ororo his closer thing to having living family (his parents dead & his older bro crazed & dead atleast for the most part).. They called age other sister & brother many time in story & She see him as her young brother (Also its been theorized by some fans that she may see him as kind of replacement for more than likely un-born young brother or sister died in at same time her mother & father did. (Dave Cockrum said N'Dare was pregnant when she die).. She could told Ororo that she was, but it just one of those things that was never followed up on.. But back to point - Misuse # 3 because barely talks or saying anything about Ororo & his relationship or beat the hole hell out the villains (the only time Piotr really turns it on/written as being 100 class when he either really pissed or when his fam is in danged) & he should both here & not show as either.. Just same old same old.. He stand their & says DA.

(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q251/stormchyald/storm/hilitecockrum.jpg)

Kurt- Was used petty well- His only misuse just like Logan & Peter is not showing reacting with Ororo once snice she become freed.. 

The FF are in the story because they have a good in story reason (dislike Doom & he's trying to do something really evil, 3 out of 4 are good friends of T'Challa/ Reed & Sue consider T'Challa & Ororo family/ Sue & Ororo have some what become friends.)

(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1208505-mr.___mr.r._large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/mr/105-1208505/) (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/32791/1244503-fam_large.jpg) (http://www.comicvine.com/fam/105-1244503/)

The Dora Milaje army was never mentioned during Reg's run. Aneka never made an appearance. Are these elements making the story less clear?


I don't know if they make less clear or not, but Aneka is basically (imo) a cooler looking of version of the woman for CJP that QDJ trian with for an issue or 2. A DM Army was mention per say or out right, but they ill hints/seeds (imo) of one because of their concept (base on a real life Mino/Dahomey Amazons), also there were atleast 3/4 of them during RH.. The most at one show on a panel during his run was I think 4 DM.. I'd say their were atleast 4 (maybe 6 at the most different ones) show RH 1st BP run & D-Mc FF & RH 2nd BP run.. Also I petty sure those 2 from worlds apart weren't the same as ones RH & DM'C used..   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons

Hey Vic, I have to co sign with 4sake on your first comment. You are correct that Tchalla has removed the Hatut Zeraze from Wakanda but  Hunter being the loyalist fanatic he is, would most definitely have involved himself in something as serious as the war with Doom.


Hunter petty much not in this because no 1 all that interested in writing him or about him (it petty much the same with T'Challa other dead bro. Jakarra, T'Shan, & Josh Itobo the 4 petty much serve the same role.. Un-mind T'Challa/think they rule better, there only difference is the level a-holeness they are willing to go.)

Personally never cared to much for the character himself (Hunter), but I thought the concept (a young T'Chaka & N'Yami adopted an orphan out lander) was ok idea.. (I wouldn't prefer he was half black/had one black birth parent or atleast had a Wakanda name..) Now if got revamp a lil & then brought back I think he''d work better also (giving a lil more info what kind of ppl his birth parents were where they were from, his time with N'Yami & etc)

Good points about Killmonger 4sake. Excellent breakdowns on the inconsistencies.


Glad you think so..

In regards to the ritual I was trying to suggest some sophistication about how an advance nation such as Wakanda would choose its leadership. It would seem illogical if only the best physical fighter was chosen to rule.


True, but I don't being a genius is a requirement/should be a requirement.. Not saying you if can barely  read & write can be BP either.. I think they have to be of average intellect atleast.. I thinking maybe a balance of fighting abilities, brains, leadership ability, charisma, passion, selflessness/unselfishness, approval of the Bast & maybe few other things..

When I complete the outline on the five levels I will post them.


Cool  8)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 29, 2010, 05:40:02 pm
"Giving a Power Ring to John Stewart is like giving an old lady the keys to the Batmobie." I happened upon this ridiculous comment while scanning opinions posted to that other forum. The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members.

And yet, in the opinion of more than a few members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, John Stewart is somehow less deserving than Rayner and Gardner of wielding a Power Ring. Many of those same members are likely of the opinion that Jericho Drumm's ascension to Sorcerer Supreme is just so much Affirmative Action nonsense placing the under-qualified Drumm in a position best served by the white Dr. Stephen Strange. I see DC's character Firestorm is once again a white male, the black male relegated to the subordinate position/condition.

Any opinion holding that John Stewart is unqualified to wield a Power Ring obviously has no basis in fact. Hal Jordan - who most might claim to be the greatest Green Lantern - has conceded that Stewart's Ring constructs are more solid than his own and that Stewart is not only superior to him as a flyer, but is the best of the entire Corps. That "fan's" opinion stems from the type of prejudice and bias which all too often is the basis for the obnoxious, inaccurate, stupid comments which serve to diminish not only John Stewart, but Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Bishop, and many other Black comicbook characters.

T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence. Keep bringing it strong, Ture. Your comments as always, are right on point.

I petty much agree with this..

Interesting post Ture. I made a rant over at cbr pretty much about the same thing...  ;)

I'm got to admit that I'm almost done with Marvel. I do salute those African writers who have tried to bring Marvel into the 21st Century, despite the constant problems which came there way. But it is always difficult to engage and change the personalty of a thing, when it was devised to uphold and reinforce another peoples culture.

It's a shame really that the Milestone effort from a few years age was not able to get more fans. Because when it comes down to how we are presented in this medium. The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman ( and I  am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms"  >:( )


Good points.. IMO the best way to save/fix the BP book is to get Dwayne McDuffie or Jason Aaron or both co-writing it with some good rotating artist (Ken Lashley, Scot Eaton, Jefte Palo, Diogenes Neves, Paul Pelletier, Koi Turnbull, also bringing back Mark Bright, Sal Velluto & Bob Almond would be good atleast for a arc or 2 each, also Frank Cho or & Mike Choi & or Mark Brooks would be great).. Not that J.Maberry isn't a good/ok writer but he turn off BP core fan base with writing (& with very very new readers jumping on the book  & the only way to get said fan base back & to maybe add some more is with a new writer/writers.

Also having the 1st arc  be about T'Challa becoming BP again & fixing Wakanda, T & O interacting with each other, reminding readers T'Challa friendships/relationship with Iron Man, Steve R., Cage, Ben G., & Wolverine (Also reminding readers friendships/relationship with Doc.V, Sceptre, Namor, Falcon, Ka-Zar & Deathlok would be good also).

A few Ororo centric issues (reminders friendships/relationship with Gambit, Kitty, Piotr, Magneto, Jubilee, Rouge & Cannonball), Having her react to Kurt death (maybe T'Challa makes Kurt birthday holiday in Wakanda), Also more of her & Sue friendship/relationship .. Her leading the Wakanda forces in battle both with & without T'Challa..

Ororo getting know/maybe becoming friends/associates with other woman in the Marvel U (Black Widow, Ms.Marvel/WarBird, Sceptre, Misty Knight,  Dagger & etc) . ... But that just my imo..

An once you taking care of Main characters you throw a few subplots in the books for supporting cast.
In BP case you need rebuild/make the supporting cast a stable & consistent again..Which would be using characters that fit/set role in the story & bring back one that still have role/need for in the book, but that doesn't mean getting rid of the new charterers either (the members of the pride, the concept of the DM army & etc) it just less focus on them more focus on the main characters & the supporting one who actually a some what of a fan base...

Shuri - is a great characters but she can't make book hold readers (especially the ways comics are sale'in  in this day & age ), but with push marvel gave her she move up from 4-6 best supporting character in atleast the 3 most important in the BP book..  So she need some important subplots that can/could turn into main plots a Shuri centric issue after like every 3-12 T'Challa & Ororo centric would be good/great imo..  Next bring back & used other supporting characters who some what have fan base & have history in the BP myths (S'yan, Zuri, QDJ, The DM, Queen Mom & N'Gassi)

Next revamp petty much all ppl old villains form McGregor ( :P ) run (Madame Slay,Sombre, Lord Karnaj & Salamander K'ruel. ) Bring in new ones like Moses Magnum, A new leader/ruler of the Lion Cult/Tribe, A new Leader of Crocodile Cult, & etc.. Revamp both Killmonger & White Wolf bring them back having Killmonger act T'Challa in a differentway them usual & WW back because T'Challa & Shuri unbanned the Hatut Zeraze turn they into something more than a wetworks group as act in honoring their father.. (just idea).. Also bring the Deviants, Malice/Nakia & Kiber The Cruel back .. Also Graviton, Damon Dran, Jinku the Vava witchdoctor, Solarr/Silas King, & a modern Carnivore/Andreas Zorba would be interesting.      

The setting - Split time between Wakanda, NY & other places in world similar to CJP run..

Reminds Readers (both fans & haters)- that Wakanda is a WORLD POWER in the Marvel U.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 29, 2010, 05:56:30 pm
<<I agree & another key charchers missing form all this is Namor, I don't know wasn't going with marvel, but if anyone should be here (in DoomWar) its him.. >>

I said something similar before DW started.  T was hurt while visiting Namor; he would take personal offense that Doom attacked his visitor.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 29, 2010, 08:13:48 pm
<<I agree & another key charchers missing form all this is Namor, I don't know wasn't going with marvel, but if anyone should be here (in DoomWar) its him.. >>

I said something similar before DW started.  T was hurt while visiting Namor; he would take personal offense that Doom attacked his visitor.

Yeah I remember  :D  8)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on May 30, 2010, 03:21:56 am
I also co-sign on Namor. I wondered where he was. Namor and FF should definitely be involved Doom War, even more than the X-Men, despite their ties to Storm. The one X-Man that should definitely be a part of it is Nezhno IMO.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 30, 2010, 11:59:16 am
As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).

This so-called "cultural arrogance" was apparent in Don McGregor's Panther's Rage depending upon the interpretation of any individual reader of the story, at least IMO. You see, I now wonder if Maberry isn't writing more to the perceptions many in the larger comicbook-reading demographic might have regarding Wakanda's reluctance in welcoming strangers or foreign customs/cultures. Mjumbak was a simple Wakandan farmer. He wasn't culturally "arrogant", nor was his wife (widow). However, Mjumbak's wife didn't try to hide her disapproval of T'Challa's romance with the "outworlder" Monica Lynne.

Are Wakandan's culturally arrogant or are they rather, a truly xenophobic people? "Wakanda is a tiny nation in the midst of a vast continent that has never known true peace. Our culture, our art, our technology--none of it would exist, noe of it could have survived were we not willing to defend it, fiercely and decisively." - Shuri, Princess Regent of Wakanda/the Black Panther. I didn't detect "cultural arrogance" in Shuri's statement.

Arrogance as I've seen it defined is an exaggeration of one's self worthiness/importance accompanied by a rude and overbearing air. The Wakandans are proud of their nation, their culture, their independence, their self-reliance. I have never seen in any comicbook featuring the Panther or everyday Wakandans exhibiting true arrogance. Wakandans have traveled the world and befriended peoples of different nations, cultures, races. At least one of those Wakandans managed to become impregnated by a Russian. It seems to me that a person from an arrogant culture - one who believes themselves unmatched by any other in the world - wouldn't ever entertain the notion intimate intercourse with a member of a culture considered to be inferior. Killmonger recruited the "outworlder" Horatio Walters into his army of insurrection as a trusted lieutenant.

IMO then, the Wakandans aren't culturally arrogant, they are xenophobic; they are mistrusting of foreigners and for very good reason. Throughout their history as a sovereign nation, Wakanda has had to repel invaders intent on conquering them, destroying their way of life and stealing their resources. Wakanda's great King T'Chaka was just one of many thousands of Wakandans to die defending their right to exist. Xenophobia does not equal cultural arrogance.

Quote
While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).

Hudlin might be the one and only writer who has ever "exalted" T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda and he caught hell for it. Write a strong Black Panther, one that doesn't always agree with the larger comicbook-reading demographic's "status quo" understanding of how that character is to be portrayed and it wounds their sensibilities to the extent that some of them have gone so far as to malign Hudlin as a racist. Meanwhile in a recent Daredevil one-shot featuring a "fight" between he and Luke Cage, Daredevil is able to stun Luke Cage with martial arts strikes and draw blood. Daredevil, a character who has no physical super-strength is able to do Cage what usually only bullets and those characters possessed of physical super-strength might achieve. How many members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic regard Daredevil's success against Cage as bad writing or something that is beyond the scope of Daredevil to accomplish?

T'Challa has often been written as beaten to a pulp before he is able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. This has been true whether his opponent has been Killmonger, the Azanian Super-soldiers, the kkk. The time this didn't occur was the Hudlin-penned story which had T'Challa and Wakanda repelling an invasion by Klaw, the Rhino, Batroc, the Radioactive Man, and the fake Black Knight...not to mention the U.S. Needless to say, DOOMWAR is more to the liking of the larger comicbook-reading demographic than was T'Challa's/Wakanda's victory over Klaw and his minions. Dr. Doom is no tougher than any "top echelon" villian in the MU. T'Challa decked Mephisto and ripped the heart from his chest. Luke Cage and Cloak both defeated Dr. Doom in his own home. The only reason Doom is considered as so dangerous is because he has had the benefit of being written as such. Write T'Challa in that same manner and risk the wrath of many in the larger comicbook-reading demographic complaining that the Black Panther is "too perfect".

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This fight is not all that one sided.

 :) Vic, every Muhammad Ali/Joe Frazier fight were not one-sided affairs. Still, Joe always emerged from those battles looking the loser, even in the one fight he happened to win. Right now I'd say that Joe gave a better account of himself in every fight he waged against The Greatest than T'Challa has given to this point against Doom. Maberry is allowing Doom to land haymakers left and right, while T'Challa has been covering, weakly counterpunching and most recently, lectured by his younger sister on how to properly fight a war. Like Ali, Doom has been catching most of our heroes blows on his arms and shoulders, rendering them mostly ineffective. I can't even say T'Challa's counterpunches because so far, T'Challa hasn't done much in the way of fighting against Doom --- he's left the fighting to the women of Wakanda it seems). Meanwhile, it's been our heroes who have been catching all of the lumps.             
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 30, 2010, 12:19:14 pm
<<At least one of those Wakandans managed to become impregnated by a Russian. It seems to me that a person from an arrogant culture - one who believes themselves unmatched by any other in the world - wouldn't ever entertain the notion intimate intercourse with a member of a culture considered to be inferior. >>

Tell that to millins of racist men who had no problem bedding Black woman.

But I think the comment had more to do with the fact that because the Wakandan have never been beaten has given them an arrogance that they never can be beaten. 

But in a general prediction, I suspect that JM plans for BP to pull a "hail mary" victory.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 30, 2010, 01:17:58 pm
<<At least one of those Wakandans managed to become impregnated by a Russian. It seems to me that a person from an arrogant culture - one who believes themselves unmatched by any other in the world - wouldn't ever entertain the notion intimate intercourse with a member of a culture considered to be inferior. >>

Tell that to millins of racist men who had no problem bedding Black woman.

Yes indeed. 2 such come immediately to mind: Thomas Jefferson and Strom Thurmond. Jefferson was a vile and hateful racist. He hated Black people to the core. He once said Black men lust after white women in much the same way an orangutan (ape), lusts after the black woman--an example of the male of an inferior type lusting for the female of the more highly-evolved species. I believe most of us are somewhat aware of the legacy of racist virulence left by Thurmond. Jefferson was said by some who believe he had sex with Sally Hemmings (many believe Jefferson did not father Hemming's children) that he didn't see her as a black female but as biracial, the white aspect of her humanity made her appealing to him while her black aspect was repugnant to him. Thurmond seduced a 16 year old black female domestic and fathered her child. It's true. Racist white men have had access to black females in this nation for the centuries we've been here.

Nezhno's situation may be different. Until we learn the nature of the relationship between his Wakandan mother and his Russian father we won't know the circumstances of his conception. What we do know is that as written, Nezhno's Wakandan mother despises and disowns Nezhno as her son. This seems to follow the "campaign" if you will, if some writers depicting Wakanda or at least some Wakandans, as being "culturally arrogant", racist, and absolutely intolerant of all humanity outside Wakandan borders. It's as if Marvel's editors and writers aren't satisfied with the Wakandans being a culture of xenophobes, they seem determined to make them a culture of misanthropes. Yet, there are Wakandans who would allow themselves to be basely used by Dr. Doom?

Quote
But I think the comment had more to do with the fact that because the Wakandan have never been beaten has given them an arrogance that they never can be beaten.
 

On the other hand, the Wakandans have come close to defeat so often that their xenophobia could very well stem from their fear that one of the invaders would "get lucky". Doom was able to find Wakandan traitors to facilitate his "conquest" of Wakanda. How many members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic are asking about the "how", the "why" and the "wherefore" of Doom's ability to achieve this? Not many I would guess. They're too busy enjoying the spectacle of Doom kicking T'Challa's behind to care about the "small stuff".

Quote
But in a general prediction, I suspect that JM plans for BP to pull a "hail mary" victory.

I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead", for Wakanda to reform under a new ruler and a new "more open" reality --- one that will see foreigners crawling over the Wakandan carcass like flies on carrion, and long enough for Storm to leave Wakanda, rejoin the X-Men and become the plaything --sexual and otherwise-- of the editors, writers and characters there. After this has happened, T'Challa will return to find a completely different Wakanda and his Queen impregnated by Wolverine or in a hot sex affair with Yukio.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 30, 2010, 01:24:58 pm
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on May 30, 2010, 03:21:53 pm
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)

That never works.

But yeah, I will add to the saying .... where is Namor heck come to think of it. The X-men was mysteriously absent when the BP forces and the FF was taking that beat down from Doom.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 30, 2010, 04:31:07 pm
@EJ: The knock on DS 9 was that the first 2 seasons weren't that good. But when it got good it was brillant.

To be fair I can see where a HARD CORE TREKKIE would have problems with the show, seeing as 1)it is NOT about the federation as a utopia. They screwed over the Maquis, they have a secret service that spies on its own citizens and  they built warships like the Defiant. B)Sisko unlike every other Starship captain is NOT a cultural assimilationist he doesn't change Bajor, Bajor changes him.

There are reasons ths stuff would discomfit the typical Star Trek fan. The classic show is practically a love letter to imperialism.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on May 30, 2010, 05:11:05 pm
Great Convo going on here.

Like I said on the other board...T'challa fans will not be happy with Doomwar. I personally think Doomwar is fine...I like it. But I don't like T'chlla's role. He is simply not a character that can be pushed a side like Tony Stark or Steve Rogers...who have tons and tons of good comics featuring them.

As Sin pointed out...T'challa was pretty much ruined for 30 or so years...I loved Priest Run with the Batman/Ghal angel...and what I loved best about Hudlin run...is that T'challa was not second fiddle...hell during that run you had Jason Aaron out line for other writers how to tackle him (T'challa)...just combine Priest and Hudlin Panther's and T'challa is fine.

I like Mr. Maberry a lot...he very talented. But I believe that the mandate to push Shuri and the pushing the comic to 6 issues has hurt the event. Doomwar was supposed be about T'challa taking on Doom. That is the way it was talked about, then it has suddenly changed over the past few months. I give him major props for getting him Enhanced...but so far it's been meaningless...

So I meanly blame Marvel. T'challa should still be the Panther now...then he could have walked away from the title *AFTER*...and Shuri could have proved herself during Doomwar and took the title then...or something. But they did all that after Hudlin's 6 issues.


4 Sake is right...lots of T'challa fans are turned off.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Jay on May 30, 2010, 06:16:36 pm
I agree but I don't blame Mayberry. I blame Joe. Quesada probably doesn't think that much of the Black Panther hence the current Doomwars story.

I can see him saying ... Oh you got to have FF if Doom's going to be in it.

I think that's mainly the reason for Namor's and the X-men's disappearance in this story. Or why T'Challa not the main character vs Doom.

I mean .... "One More Day" anyone! 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 31, 2010, 05:05:59 am
 ???
When was the Desturi first revealed? The first mention of the Desturi was in Black Panther #10 written by Maberry wasn't it?

Now waitaminnit. It's entirely possible that I very well might have missed some significant thread(s) of the fabric of this story along the way but I'm trying to reason something out here. And please forgive me if I'm rehashing a discussion which may have already occured or is now in progress somewhere else in this great forum.

Many Wakandans, most certainly the Desturi and for that matter, a great deal of MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY opponents sprinkling the larger comicbook-reading demographic - not part of the Doomwar story to be sure but definitely sharing the same sentiment of those Wakandans and the Desturi - were/are none too pleased with T'Challa's love for Ororo and her love for him, with their decision to marry, with the fact that the MARRIAGE would make Ororo Queen of all Wakanda; with the fact that these events written by Hudlin and approved by Marvel's powers that be, would install Storm as a permanent and integral element of the Black Panther comicbook. For one thing, they disliked all of this because is seemed forced to them.

Much has been made of the Wakandan nation's so-called "cultural arrogance", their belief perhaps that the long-established circumstances of their eons of existence marked by independence and excellence prove them to be better than the "outworlders". The Wakandan nation doesn't need nor does it want for intercourse of any kind with the outside world unless Wakanda are the initiators of such intercourse. Wakanda will send its scholars and spies abroad to stay abreast of world and galactic events but it jealously resists and discourages any inteference or incursion by outsiders. All Wakanda has ever needed, prayed for, and accepted is the protection and when necessary, the intercession of the Panther God in matters concerning their continued existence.

Storm is Kenyan and probably Swahili isn't she? How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? No, possibly for the sake of expediency an African word was used to express a concept adopted by Wakandan revolutionaries. Nevermind that the African word is not of Wakandan origin, but derives from the very culture of the Queen hated by those Wakandan revolutionaries. If I were of the same thinking of those..."But it makes no sense to have Bishop and Monica Rambeau involved romantically. The romance would seem forced because they are both black"...members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, I would say that Wakandan revolutionaries using a Swahili word to describe their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" insurrection is inconsistent at least, forced at worst.

The fact that Doom was somehow able to infiltrate this Desturi movement so quickly, completely and effectively without the leaders of the Desturi having the slightest inkling that something was amiss seems fortuitous for Doom and those of the LCB-RD thoroughly engrossed in and enraptured by Maberry's annihilation of Great Wakanda and his humbling of King T'Challa; however, speaking as one proud fan of the Black Panther and all things (or at least most things) Black Panther, I could see where the case could be made that much about the story Maberry is telling is forced, forced; forced.

Doom had better be seriously physically maimed when this story reaches its conclusion. Damnit.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 31, 2010, 06:22:19 am
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 31, 2010, 07:24:49 am
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?

 Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 31, 2010, 07:51:16 am
Sin, I think part of the problem is Wakanda only works if it is a mysterious, hidden, unknown people.  The minute you take away veil and try and explain Wakanda as a real nation, it doesn't work.  Or rather, the mystique gets lost and contradictions and logic flaws pop up.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 31, 2010, 08:02:19 am
Sin, I think part of the problem is Wakanda only works if it is a mysterious, hidden, unknown people.  The minute you take away veil and try and explain Wakanda as a real nation, it doesn't work.  Or rather, the mystique gets lost and contradictions and logic flaws pop up.

Agreed. I have always liked the Wakandan mystique that seemed to exist until very recently. Strange, interesting, and fantastic things can happen in Wakanda; dinosaurs still exist, Resurrection Altar, the as yet not fully understood and amazing effects direct exposure to raw Vibranium can cause, etc... But now we learn of this mysterious, hidden, unknown people that the Swahili dialect is not one of a foreign "outworlder" nation, but one which has always existed as part of the Wakandan language.

Highly-advanced, secretive, fabulously wealthy, militarily magnificent, and seemingly aloof of the rest of the world; Wakanda seemed to wear on the sensibilities of the LCB-RD, especially when Hudlin's writing seemed to make the nation and their Black Panther seem "too perfect". Now the LCB-RD is being pacified by this story written by Maberry showing the mysterious magnificence of Wakanda stripped away, their weaknesses exposed, their great leader humbled, it's female warriors carrying the fight to their nation's "conqueror".
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 31, 2010, 08:18:37 am
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.

Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”

Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.

Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.

You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be  the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.

These are the decrees of doom. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 31, 2010, 08:58:43 am
<<Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there.>>

SI was anything BUT that.  In stuff I read before SI, the writer said, Wakanda could not beat the power of Skrull army so he had to remove the Skrull edge.  He took away their tech, ignored their shape shifting powers, and magic and had them fight a blade war.  This is a fighting style the Skrulls had no (little) experience in.  Beating that isn't impressive as it sounds. That might be a fine story, but it really shows the Wakandans as the weakest of the 3 nations.  (And he gives them 3 super-skrulls to fight; one of which has a weakness no other skrull seemed to have.  Other SS seemed to use multiple powers sets at the same time.  But BP can only beat his enemy because he can't.)

Now look at the other fronts in this war.  Skrulls attack England with multiple Super-skrulls, high tech and high magic.  England's magic beats everything about the Skrulls.  The enemy came in full-force and by making a deal with the devil, England wins.  and even before the deal, England was rallying around the reformed Captain Britan.

Then the US  fights hundreds of Super-skrulls, even a Galactus Skrull.  They do battle with space ships.  Then with only a fraction of the full American force (not even all the super-heroes and only SHIELD) they beat the Skrulls.  The Marines didn't even need to show up.  The US can beat Skrull technological edge.  The British beat Skrull tech n magic.  The Wakandans beat Skrull spears???  And that is supposed to be impressive?

The writers of those books saw ways for England and US to win without neutering and hamstringing the Skrulls.  But apparently that was the only way the Wakandans could win.  (Personally, I don't think so, but the writer apparently did.)

It was not a good show for Wakanda.

And being an unconquered nation isn't as impressive as it sounds.  Beating back colonial forces doesn't mean they are military equals to this European Nations.  It just means when they have the home field advantage, a small invasion forces can't win.  For example, beating a company or 2 of British soldiers doesn't mean they could have beaten the entire British Empire.  Or take the Nazi's.  Wakanda handly defeats their invasion parties, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could beat the Nazi's in Europe or that they could beat Hitler if he sent everything against Wakanda instead of only a hundred or so men. 

Now, understand it also doesn't mean they couldn't; I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying being "unconquered" is impressive only to a certain degree.  Yes, they are unique in Africa, but that just makes them mightiest of Africa, not necessarily the world.

If they want to show Wakanda as the mightiest, best warriors, then show them in a war against something more impressive than raiding parties.  (And that's all we've ever really seen.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on May 31, 2010, 09:42:15 am
We've been taking about where Wakanda is supposed to be for ages here.  Kirby version was in a valley somewhere. I'm fairly cetain that in the 70's it was landlocked (which makes sense) Marvel is keeping its options open (because folks thinks its cool for them be seaside to have a Navy).

Priest's T"challa only spoke to the Dora's in HAUSA. Hasut Zeraze is (I think) Swahili for Dogs of War.

The writers want to use real African words when they can for flavor's sake. I see nothing wrong with it.  Better that then them making up a corny sounding dialect.

Certain aspect of Wakanda make no sense, certain aspects do. It really depends on what any particular wrter thinks is cool.

Priest separated the Kingship from B.P. dom. So even if T'Challa was no longer B.P. he was still the king.  Everybody else including Stan and Jack had it lose the costume lose the throne. The stakes are higher than way and face it, even in the Priest's run the only two known members of the Black Panther cult were T'challa and Kasper. So its not like the leadership of the BPC mattered ever. There nobody in the damn thing.  

The proper term for Wakanda is Isolationist. They don't care what happens to you and they don't want to care either. The central Wakandans, like the Royals are quite a bit more open minded. They let in Romonda and Venomm and accepted Ross. There is a strong Xenophobic streak among the Wakandans also. They tried to frame Monics Lynn for murder to keep her from marrying T'challa. T'Challa's fought Wakandan Xenophobes and anti tech factions since the silver age. Man Ape started out a xenophobe and became a separatist via retcon.

The Desturi needed arms and financal backing.  So they violated thier principles to get it. They just didn't tell thier followers. This is complely realistic. They just wanted to be in charge they didn't care how. They'd of taken arms and money from Killmonger but he's dead.

The Doras have been repurposed during Mayberry's run as T'Challa elite commandos. The last mention of the regular army has them quashing small pockets of Desturi resistors. So they're busy and the Doras are more fantically loyal to T'Challa anyway. If you need an explaination for why Hunter isn't in Doomwar, that's it. The HZ are fanatically loyal to Hunter, not T'challa or Shuri. They don'twant him anywhere NEAR this.

It intrests me greatly to see hom many folks are determined to find offense with what Marvel has done with Doomwar. After all not even Priest was invested in doing a Black Nationalist Power Fantasy.

Mayberry is doing 24. He's playing to his strengths. Dude's last project for Marvel was a Punisher one shot, his next is a Punsher Mini. Dude just really likes stories about folks running around shooting other folks.

We can argue about Shuri til we drop but the fact is that had Power been markets as a Dark Reign tie in folks would have bought it. It
wasn't so it didn't. The standalone non crossover issues of Reg's run didn't sell either.

As I said way back when all this started Marvel's only mistake was in not pandering ENOUGH. I'd of given Shuri's costume a bare midriff and ingnored all the resuting fan whining. I'd of had as many Norman Osborne apperance as the editors would let me get away with.

The mainstream fans ONLY read this book when there are crossovers involved. The Jason Arron arc was a crossover arc. Nobody would have cared about it otherwise.

And Arron used Storm far worse than Mayberry dd (she wasn't even in costume!) so much for cosistancy.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on May 31, 2010, 11:21:35 am
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.

Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”

Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.

Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.

You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be  the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.

These are the decrees of doom. 

There is very little if anything to dispute here in Ture's observation. This comment accurately recounts the general course of Hudlin's run. Black Panther fans were delighted to see Marvel's premier Black characters finally joined together in a significant, loving and powerful relationship while many Storm fans, most members of the LCB-RD, and nearly every x-geek offering an opinion on the issue were disgusted.

When it comes to squeaky wheels, the LCB-RD's wheels squeak loudest. Marvel and Maberry will do that which will best satisfy the wishes of that demographic. Ture's dire prediction for the Panther, Storm and Wakanda may be a prophesy to be fulfilled in a very short period of time.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Princesa on May 31, 2010, 12:07:28 pm
I don't there were ever any plans of returning T'Challa to being Black Panther. If there were it would certainly be done now more than ever as Shuri has shown she isn't ready to carry a title. In the vain of Steve Rogers I can live with that--if there are T'Challa plans. We talk about Namor. A reason not for him to be involved maybe  is while he is T'Challa's friend he is also  Doom's ally. Doom has had his back for a good while now so maybe Namor is being neutral. If you recall Doom fell out with Osborn over Namor.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 12:32:55 pm
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?

 Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.

Confirmed : Wakandian, Yoruba, Swahili & English.. There a few others also more than likey..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 12:39:11 pm
I don't there were ever any plans of returning T'Challa to being Black Panther. If there were it would certainly be done now more than ever as Shuri has shown she isn't ready to carry a title. In the vain of Steve Rogers I can live with that--if there are T'Challa plans. We talk about Namor. A reason not for him to be involved maybe  is while he is T'Challa's friend he is also  Doom's ally. Doom has had his back for a good while now so maybe Namor is being neutral. If you recall Doom fell out with Osborn over Namor.

Good point, but it should be mention om the book so where if that case.. (Also around the same time Doom was doing that he also brought Attuma back to life to kill Namor because he knows Namor can't be control if Doom did take over world.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on May 31, 2010, 04:42:27 pm
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)

I posted that idea of their disappearnce weeks ago. Hopefully it won't come true.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Princesa on May 31, 2010, 05:36:06 pm
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)

I posted that idea of their disappearnce weeks ago. Hopefully it won't come true.


Hopefully this is not the case, just have T'Challa decide it's Shuri's time and he and Ororo leave Wakanda for NY/SF or wherever ...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 31, 2010, 05:50:49 pm
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers?  So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.

There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Princesa on May 31, 2010, 07:28:43 pm
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers?  So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.

There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.

I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point. I could see T'Challa as a part of the X Men with this "I am an X Man" stuff. You have three or four title with the same cast, take one like languishing Astonishing and have Xavier re-establish his work with Ororo, T'Challa, Kitty , Omega Sentinel, Draken to start...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 31, 2010, 07:39:39 pm
<<Princess: I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point.>>

Not so much as parnoid but expecting a cliche.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 07:56:24 pm
<<Princess: I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point.>>

Not so much as parnoid but expecting a cliche.

I agree
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on May 31, 2010, 08:27:11 pm
I concur with much of what you wrote about the Wakandan/Skrull battle during Secret Invasion, Kip. My point was BP's episode of SI was well received and I heard comments that it was the most entertaining of the crossover event. I did state and do again that all this is debatable.

<<the writer said, Wakanda could not beat the power of Skrull army so he had to remove the Skrull edge. He took away their tech, ignored their shape shifting powers, and magic and had them fight a blade war.>>

I think the writer should have kept all those elements in the story. It would have added texture and complexity to an already fine read. The writer would have had to build on the “magic” of the Panther Spirit to ferret out the Skrull infiltrators and show the Panther Spirit combating Skrull magic. Since the Wakandans developed a means to “shape shift” (or maybe just cloak/alter their appearance) that could have been expanded story wise to being some form of transmitter that prevented all except Super-Skrulls from shape shifting.

I was really hoping to see the Wakandan armada in action. I was hoping for a splash page that rivaled Priest's (actually Sal and Bob's) BP#49. This would have been an excellent opportunity to showcase Wakanda's off world outposts, orbital battle platforms, N'yami battle cruisers and their much vaunted Wakandan army,navy and marines. The writer could have included combative robotics like the Prowlers or even introduced a secret robot army Tchalla had hidden in the techno jungle. The only limits lied in the writer's imagination, and of course how he viewed the BlackPanther and Wakanda.

Tchalla's battle with the Super-Skrulls could have been done much more effectively if he utilized his light and thrice blessed armors. What better time than in an all out war. This was the perfect place to highlight his speed, strength and agility. Show off his martial arts prowess and sword play.

<<And being an unconquered nation isn't as impressive as it sounds. Beating back colonial forces doesn't mean they are military equals to this European Nations. It just means when they have the home field advantage, a small invasion forces can't win. For example, beating a company or 2 of British soldiers doesn't mean they could have beaten the entire British Empire. Or take the Nazi's. Wakanda handly defeats their invasion parties, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could beat the Nazi's in Europe or that they could beat Hitler if he sent everything against Wakanda instead of only a hundred or so men. Now, understand it also doesn't mean they couldn't; I'm not saying that. I'm just saying being "unconquered" is impressive only to a certain degree. Yes, they are unique in Africa, but that just makes them mightiest of Africa, not necessarily the world.If they want to show Wakanda as the mightiest, best warriors, then show them in a war against something more impressive than raiding parties. (And that's all we've ever really seen.)>>

Again I agree.

While Secret Invasion's misfires weren't as blatant they exist none the less. These have been my complaints through out Doomwar. That the writer(s) have been under utilizing Black Panther's talents and resources and have de-powered and dumbed down a truly remarkable character. The only question is why.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 08:30:28 pm
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers?  So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.

There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.


I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point. I could see T'Challa as a part of the X Men with this "I am an X Man" stuff. You have three or four title with the same cast, take one like languishing Astonishing and have Xavier re-establish his work with Ororo, T'Challa, Kitty , Omega Sentinel, Draken to start...


That could work (Daken will more than like never a x-man..Erista maybe, but I doubt will ever see Daken on the X-Men & Carey said he has plans for Omega Sentinel, but I'd love to see her on a team again)..

Astonishing - seems to be a either official or unofficial rule that this book must a have famous/known name (both in & out comics) writer. An the only current working for marvel or would work for marvel are Mark Millar (current is with marvel again), Dwayne McDuffie (more than likely would work for marvel), & our forums host Reginald Hudlin (current is with marvel).. BMB said before that he'd like to write the X-Men at some point & since he's marvel top writer so I could see letting him write Astonishing also if he wanted to...

I personally want see what both D-Mc & RH would do with an X-book/X-Men.. :D ;D 8)      

Also Ellis is leaving after this arc, so the book maybe open for a new writer to take over, if marvel doesn't cancel it.

http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=7158&page=1#Item_0


ASTONISHING X-MEN: probably some delays coming? Short ones? I don't even know anymore. My third arc has been repurposed into the ASTONISHING X-MEN: EXOGENETIC miniseries. That will be my last ASTONISHING X-MEN project.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 01, 2010, 02:30:34 am
We've been taking about where Wakanda is supposed to be for ages here.  Kirby version was in a valley somewhere. I'm fairly cetain that in the 70's it was landlocked (which makes sense) Marvel is keeping its options open (because folks thinks its cool for them be seaside to have a Navy).

"...talking about where Wakanda is supposed to be for ages here." Which goes to one of many points I've attempted to establish about not only the Black Panther/Wakanda, but to other Black characters as well; that point being that those characters are often ill-defined or in a state of incompletion. This works when the character is intended to be enigmatic as was T'Challa and Wakanda when featured in the character's earliest appearances in the Avengers. At that time, he was the most mysterious member of the team - visually exciting, outfitted entirely in black garb with an exotic and mostly-secretive background. However, when the character is used more often enigma becomes problematic. Enigma becomes ambiguity. The enigmatic character, his/her powers, origin, base of operation, et al, are subject to the whims of whatever editor, writer, artist is using the character. Enigma/ambiguity works for characters like Wolverine whose "Snikt" among other things, made him a superstar. For many reasons we could debate forever, the Black Panther has never had the fan interest enjoyed by Wolverine. Enigma worked for T'Challa, but he has not been well served by obscurity/ambiguity.

Wolverine's enigmatic/obscure/incompleteness as a character allowed editors and writers to slap him with a severe case of amnesia. When the layers of that amnesiac fog was cleared from his mind, Wolverine was revealed to be not the ill-tempered, foul, undisciplined fighter he appeared to be in his early days with the X-Men, but actually, a hero who served alongside Captain America in WWII, a Samurai with knowledge and skills far beyond what was evidenced during the early X-Men days when he constantly referred to Ororo as a "broad". Not only that, because of the wild fan reaction the character had received when his popularity took off, Wolverine's mutant healing factor made him virtually immortal, capable of recovering from the most catastrophic injuries imaginable. I understand that Wolverine's body was once ripped in two by the Hulk and his top half went off in search of his bottom half. Why he didn't simply regenerate a new bottom half and save himself the trouble of searching for the pelvis and legs Hulk ripped away and hurled to who-knows-where never made sense to me. The fact is, he was able to do it. It was only when Wolverine regenerated from a single drop of blood his fanatics finally began to say, "Okay, enough is enough." This is how enigma/obscurity/ambiguity served Wolverine.

What do I know of Atlantis? It lies somewhere beneath some vast body of water. Recently, 4Sake shared with me that it lies under the Utopia Island or something like that. Enigmatic, undefined...what did I ever care about it? Not much. The opinion I have of Namor and Atlantis closely mirrors what many members of the LCB-RD have of T'Challa and Wakanda I suspect. Until very recently, I was a big fan of the Inhumans. They were created as enigmatic characters and intended to remain so. Their Great Refuge/Atillan has existed all over the place. What works for Atlantis and Atillan doesn't work for Wakanda. Since the "Jungle Action" days, I'd always understood Wakanda to be land-locked. It wasn't until Priest (admittedly, a run I didn't follow as closely as I should have done) featured a Wakandan navy that it occurred to me that Wakanda must have had some access to the sea. Later, Hudlin had zombified-U.S. Marines launch a sea-borne operation/invasion of Wakanda which confirmed to me that Wakanda had such access. As you say, land-locked Wakanda makes more sense seeing as it is supposed to be located in the middle of 5 other African nations. Having access to the sea however, gives Wakanda options a land-locked nation doesn't have.

Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability. NYC doesn't move around. Hell's Kitchen doesn't move around. The U.S. doesn't move around. Most of Marvel's superhero action takes place in NYC and the U.S. Locations and characters are often solidly defined. This is not always true for the black characters. Luke Cage has steel-hard skin and super strength and yet, Daredevil is able to stun Cage with martial arts strikes and make Cage bleed when often bullets fail to accomplish those things? T'Challa and Wakanda were enigmatic/obscure which rendered them ambiguous. What the LCB-RD chose to accept of T'Challa's characterization was his lack of super strength, the fact that he was genius-level intellect but not as smart as Richards, Stark, or Doom, and that in fights, T'Challa usually gets beat up, cut up, until he's barely able to get up. Hudlin began to change some of that which as Ture has stated so eloquently, was one of his "many mistakes". Hudlin made T'Challa and Wakanda "too perfect" for many of the LCB-RD. Maberry IS writing a story - a story which isn't a Black Panther or even a Shuri story, but is in fact, a Dr. Doom story - which is busting T'Challa back to levels recognized and appreciated by the LCB-RD and even moreso seeing as T'Challa has been humbled and Wakanda invaded, conquered, and bombed back into the stone ages with the rest of Africa. Enigmatic, obscurity, ambiguity works for Wolverine, the X-Men and any other character held in favor by the LCB-RD. Try that stuff with T'Challa however and the LCB-RD will not buy the book and harass the writer.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on June 01, 2010, 01:23:35 pm
Personally, I wish Deadpool hadn't been used at all. I've never liked the character, don't find him the least bit funny or entertaining and I can't help but feel that T'Challa has been even further diminished by having to enlist his aid.





I agree.

When I saw this character on the cover of the next issue page, I just rolled my eyes and sighed. ::)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 01, 2010, 02:59:21 pm
Well said Sinjection1.  Defining and evolving Wakanda is a task that would require the writer to have a understanding of historical and contemporary Afraka, the nations, empires and civilizations that did and do comprise it, the ecological and geographical determinants. Of particular need is the thorough comprehension of the people and their culture prior to European, Arab or Asian influence especially in the areas of religion, politics and socialization. It wouldn't hurt to be a little Afrakan centered.

All this is the prerequisite necessary for constructing a fictional sovereign Afrakan country that has never been conquered.

The next phase would require the writer to be imaginative and creative in the attempt to do in fiction what is not readily accessible in reality. The writer must research the nations, empires, civilizations, communities and the people that have actually existed. The writer must then develop the means, strategies, sciences, technologies, spirituality, government and philosophy that would maintain an autonomous society. This is when being Afrakan centered pays off, by facilitating all the references and properly contextualizing them.

The write maybe able to draw inspiration from the never colonized Afrakan nations of Ethiopia and Liberia, from the obscure yet exemplary leadership of Queen Nzinga and the people of Angola. There are many excellent examples of sovereignty and resistance. The independent Afrakan communities like the Maroons of Jamaica and the Quilombos of Brazil provide excellent fodder. Inspiration can be found in the USA with towns like Boley, Oklahoma and the self liberating Gabriel Prosser, Denmark Vessey and Nat Turner. The cultures of Kemet, Nubia, the Akan and the Yorubas can facilitate a connection to antiquity. These are but a few of the many examples that a committed writer can draw from in the attempt to create and give dimension to Wakanda.

<<After all not even Priest was invested in doing a Black Nationalist Power Fantasy.>>  Vic Vega

Maybe he should have been. Fortunately for some (rather intentionally or unintentionally) the Priest Black Panther had some of those undertones. The writer bears the responsibility to remain true to the character's core essence (which I think Priest did). The Black Panther out of origin and evolving necessity would address such issues as Black Nationalism, Civil Rights, Racism, Colonization, Captivity and Enslavement of Afrakans. Apartheid, Ethnic Cleansing, Female Mutilation, Corrupt Governments and the pilfering of Afraka's Natural Resources would also be addressed.

BE WARNED...The writer who does engage in addressing some of these issues, does so at great professional peril.  

<<Hudlin might be the one and only writer who has ever "exalted" T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda and he caught hell for it. Write a strong Black Panther, one that doesn't always agree with the larger comicbook-reading demographic's "status quo" understanding of how that character is to be portrayed and it wounds their sensibilities to the extent that some of them have gone so far as to malign Hudlin as a racist.>> Sinjection1
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on June 01, 2010, 03:22:35 pm
I concur with much of what you wrote Kip about the Wakandan/Skrull battle during Secret Invasion. My point was BP's episode of SI was well received and I heard comments that it was the most entertaining of the crossover event. I did state and do again that all this is debatable.

<<the writer said, Wakanda could not beat the power of Skrull army so he had to remove the Skrull edge. He took away their tech, ignored their shape shifting powers, and magic and had them fight a blade war.>>

I think the writer should have kept all those elements in the story. It would have added texture and complexity to an already fine read. The writer would have had to build on the “magic” of the Panther Spirit to ferret out the Skrull infiltrators and show the Panther Spirit combating Skrull magic. Since the Wakandans developed a means to “shape shift” (or maybe just cloak/alter their appearance) that could have been expanded story wise to being some form of transmitter that prevented all except Super-Skrulls from shape shifting.

I was really hoping to see the Wakandan armada in action. I was hoping for a splash page that rivaled Priest's (actually Sal and Bob's) BP#49. This would have been an excellent opportunity to showcase Wakanda's off world outposts, orbital battle platforms, N'yami battle cruisers and their much vaunted Wakandan army,navy and marines. The writer could have included combative robotics like the Prowlers or even introduced a secret robot army Tchalla had hidden in the techno jungle. The only limits lied in the writer's imagination, and of course how he viewed the BlackPanther and Wakanda.

Tchalla's battle with the Super-Skrulls could have been done much more effectively if he utilized his light and thrice blessed armors. What better time than in an all out war. This was the perfect place to highlight his speed, strength and agility. Show off his martial arts prowess and sword play.

<<And being an unconquered nation isn't as impressive as it sounds. Beating back colonial forces doesn't mean they are military equals to this European Nations. It just means when they have the home field advantage, a small invasion forces can't win. For example, beating a company or 2 of British soldiers doesn't mean they could have beaten the entire British Empire. Or take the Nazi's. Wakanda handly defeats their invasion parties, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could beat the Nazi's in Europe or that they could beat Hitler if he sent everything against Wakanda instead of only a hundred or so men. Now, understand it also doesn't mean they couldn't; I'm not saying that. I'm just saying being "unconquered" is impressive only to a certain degree. Yes, they are unique in Africa, but that just makes them mightiest of Africa, not necessarily the world.If they want to show Wakanda as the mightiest, best warriors, then show them in a war against something more impressive than raiding parties. (And that's all we've ever really seen.)>>

Again I agree.

While Secret Invasion's misfires weren't as blatant they exist none the less. These have been my complaints through out Doomwar. That the writer(s) have been under utilizing Black Panther's talents and resources and have de-powered and dumbed down a truly remarkable character. The only question is why.

I'm going to disagree with KIP on SI. Axel just told Aaron that he wanted a 300 like war story...and that is what he wrote. Yeah he ignored the shape shifting powers...and had both of the knock out there powers...but Wakanda was outnumbered 4 to 1.

Even then the Skrulls are weakend by Vibrianum...so that is a good excuse as to why they could not shift.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 01, 2010, 03:40:01 pm
<<I'm going to disagree with KIP on SI. Axel just told Aaron that he wanted a 300 like war story...and that is what he wrote. Yeah he ignored the shape shifting powers...and had both of the knock out there powers...but Wakanda was outnumbered 4 to 1. Even then the Skrulls are weakend by Vibrianum...so that is a good excuse as to why they could not shift. >>

But it didn't.  Skrulls were using shape-shifting powers for infiltration; but they didn't use them for combat, which is the way Skrulls fight hand to hand.

As far as 300 idea, I read Aaron saying that he was the one who wanted to write Braveheart.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Princesa on June 02, 2010, 12:48:56 pm
Haven't there been some indications from Bevoort that BP may end up on the Avengers?  So maybe T won't vanish at end of DW.

There is another possibilty--T'challa returns to Wakanda to repair the nation while Shuri carries on the duties of BP on an international scale.


I don't think he vanishes at all be we're all a tad paranoid at this point. I could see T'Challa as a part of the X Men with this "I am an X Man" stuff. You have three or four title with the same cast, take one like languishing Astonishing and have Xavier re-establish his work with Ororo, T'Challa, Kitty , Omega Sentinel, Draken to start...


That could work (Daken will more than like never a x-man..Erista maybe, but I doubt will ever see Daken on the X-Men & Carey said he has plans for Omega Sentinel, but I'd love to see her on a team again)..

Astonishing - seems to be a either official or unofficial rule that this book must a have famous/known name (both in & out comics) writer. An the only current working for marvel or would work for marvel are Mark Millar (current is with marvel again), Dwayne McDuffie (more than likely would work for marvel), & our forums host Reginald Hudlin (current is with marvel).. BMB said before that he'd like to write the X-Men at some point & since he's marvel top writer so I could see letting him write Astonishing also if he wanted to...

I personally want see what both D-Mc & RH would do with an X-book/X-Men.. :D ;D 8)      

Also Ellis is leaving after this arc, so the book maybe open for a new writer to take over, if marvel doesn't cancel it.

[url]http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=7158&page=1#Item_0[/url]


ASTONISHING X-MEN: probably some delays coming? Short ones? I don't even know anymore. My third arc has been repurposed into the ASTONISHING X-MEN: EXOGENETIC miniseries. That will be my last ASTONISHING X-MEN project.


I think McDuffie would be especially perfect for an X Men series like Astonishing and he does fit the criteria. Nobody handles a cast better.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 03, 2010, 11:24:43 am
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?

 Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.

Confirmed : Wakandian, Yoruba, Swahili & English.. There a few others also more than likey..

Which again, goes back to my question/statement. The confirmed languages are Wakandian, Yoruba, Swahili & English. What is the Wakandian language? By some estimates, there are over 800 languages spoken on the African continent, but as these languages derive from a smaller "family" of languages, it would seem likely that communication between people speaking different, yet related languages would come fairly easily. Still, many of these languages are spoken only by peoples living in specific regions. I think Ture would be able to expound on or clarify this point...or correct it if I am wrong. If indeed there is a Wakandian language and the "Desturi" say "Wakanda for Wakandans!", why not use a word of the Wakandian language as the name of their initiative? The creators of Star Trek created an entire language for the Klingons so that they could use phrases native and specific to them alone. Would the creation of an African-based Wakandan language be "corny"? What's corny was Roy Thomas writing all the Wakandans speaking as if they were the spawn of William Shakespeare. I believe that the creation of a Wakandan language would go toward lending stability and legitimacy to the nation. It's supposed to be a small, secretive, isolationist nation (so called culturally arrogant) and yet, they would rather use a word of a language spoken by peoples of continguous nations and cultures to define their nationalist movement rather than use a word from their own Wakandian language which we've yet to see in evidence in any book the Black Panther has ever appeared in.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 03, 2010, 12:16:25 pm
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.

Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”

Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.

Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.

You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be  the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.

These are the decrees of doom. 

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

A careful reading of any one of Ture's posts will knock the scales from the eyes of anyone blinded to the irrefutable facts of how T'Challa, Ororo, Black comicbook characters, and Black comicbook creators are often perceived and "received" by the larger comicbook-reading demographic, the LCB-RD. All we need do is compare what Hudlin did with the characters Ororo and T'Challa to what happened to these two characters once they were "Ultimized".

Hudlin outraged many LCB-RD by removing Ororo from her ambiguous, under-appreciated role with the X-Men and made her wife of T'Challa, Queen of All Wakanda, and as Prof X put it to Storm on her WEDDING OF THE CENTURY day, the most important mutant on the planet. Before Hudlin rescued Ororo, she was initially so "ignorant" of civilized customs that she would in her early days with the X-Men, shock them into embarrassment by going about nude. Jean Grey had to tutor Ororo on the propriety of wearing clothes and took her out shopping to ease her into the concept, before the two were attacked by Vindicator of Alpha Flight. Storm then went from seemingly the asexual character who was content to water her plants in her attic-level quarters at the X-Mansion, to possibly bisexual. I've yet to see any evidence of sensual contact with Yukio or any other female character, but many x-geeks adamantly contend that Ororo did have such contact with Yukio. Ororo was involved in lip-locks with a very "patriotic" sampling of male characters, meaning those characters were Red, White, and Blue, but NEVER Black. When Hudlin's MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY became reality, those "RoLo" shippers howled for months, and many continue their howling to this day.

But those shippers got their "RoLo" in the Ultimate Marvel format, didn't they?

Ultimate Ororo is not Kenyan, but Moroccan. More than once, I've seen LCB-RD fanatics, usually x-geeks, claim that Ororo is not Black. Morocco is not Sub-Saharan Africa (Black Africa), but "upper-Sahara" (white/Arab Africa). The first thing they did when they "ultimized" Ororo was to make her "caucasoid" while maintaining the exotic appearance which has made Storm one of the most physically attractive female characters in the entire comicbook industry. There are those who will say, "What about black Nick Fury?" What about him? After re-creating Ororo as a "white African", she then began a series of "relationships" with white characters. Hank McCoy was first, Angel was next and then...the "RoLo" crowd finally got what they were looking for. Ororo was attracted to Wolverine and pursued him shamelessly. She was Wolverine's anytime/anyplace booty, but Wolverine rejected Ororo. Wolverine had the hots for Jean Grey. This is pretty close to what many x-geeks would have liked to see happen with 616 Ororo. Hudlin had a better idea.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 03, 2010, 05:53:12 pm
After reading all 14 pages, I finally decided to post. Great post ladies and gents. It has been 5 years since I started reading comics again (thanks to hudlin) and well it is a decent ride. But honestly I may not come back once my DD subs is up. I like DnA but I just didn't have the time to read. Nothing so far has intrigued me. The many potential greatness of BP is no longer there and i grow tired of the bendisverse. I need something new and refreshing to read. The same old rehash of 40 plus years of continuity bores me. For example, spider man was great imo once he don the black suit again. He was on the run and he was pissed. The "angry and frustrated" part of parker I enjoyed. Even the robotic suit he had was nice and something fresh. But too many people didn't want a change and were complaining. Marvel just lost a "new reader" in me. I just can't do it.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 03, 2010, 10:14:51 pm
Sinjection1, what I find most satisfying in your missives about the Black Panther is that you comprehend the depth necessary for the true maturation of the character. I am in complete agreement that Wakanda should have its own language. I also concur with you that the Desturi would be the first to insist upon its usage. We must have a telepathic link of some kind because my wife and I were discussing that very topic. During the discussion I too used the Klingons as an example. The producers of Star Trek the Motion Picture first introduced the Klingon language in 1979. They brought in a trained linguist named Dr. Marc Okrand. He created a complete language, with its own vocabulary, grammar, and usage. There is even a dictionary. This demonstrated an enormous commitment of resources and a strong desire for authenticity. The Black Panther's popularity would have to reach Spider-man, or at least Ironman levels and Wakanda would have to be as admired and sought after in much the same way the Klingon Empire is before Marvel would commit the kind of support needed for the development of an original Wakandan language. It is also possible that a writer may just take the time to create it and give this deserving people a voice all their own.

While Priest was writing BP he would include brackets to indicate when the characters were speaking another language. The brackets were asterisked with a caption that would read translated from the Wakandan or what ever language they were using at the time.

There are many clever ways a writer could acknowledge the existence of the Wakandan language. One could make the Wakandans an ancient people, contemporaries of the Kemetic or Atlantean people, thus being among the first to develop a written language. One could make the argument that Yoruba and Swahili evolved out of the Wakandan language due to ancient Wakandan migrations and settlements. This would explain why these languages are spoken in Wakanda.






 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 04, 2010, 02:31:35 am
Didn't we have this language discussion before? Would Marvel want a writer to spend time developing a Wakandan language? Film is a very different level from comic books.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on June 04, 2010, 12:24:13 pm

Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.


I think that work kind of well in story because most-all non Afrikan nation shouldn't know where to put Wakanda on a map.. So they just guess where to put it when they make maps/etc & assume its land locked or in a valley & etc... The ppl who know where place Wakanda on a map/actually know how to draw Wakanda map are Wakandan & a few of there neighboring nation.. So I just look at the moving around of Wakanda/ being land lock/not being in a valley/being in a valley/being land lock things.. As westerns & other nation trying figure how to put Wakanda on one there map/guessing what it look like..

But A cool thing to do would to have T'Challa visiting/coming to a group of Wakandan kid class room & telling they the history of Wakanda & showing them what Wakanda on a map atually look like.. That way both we readers & the characters who should only know where it is. know   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on June 04, 2010, 12:41:28 pm
Sinjection1, what I find most satisfying in your missives about the Black Panther is that you comprehend the depth necessary for the true maturation of the character. I am in complete agreement that Wakanda should have its own language. I also concur with you that the Desturi would be the first to insist upon its usage. We must have a telepathic link of some kind because my wife and I were discussing that very topic. During the discussion I too used the Klingons as an example. The producers of Star Trek the Motion Picture first introduced the Klingon language in 1979. They brought in a trained linguist named Dr. Marc Okrand. He created a complete language, with its own vocabulary, grammar, and usage. There is even a dictionary. This demonstrated an enormous commitment of resources and a strong desire for authenticity. The Black Panther's popularity would have to reach Spider-man, or at least Ironman levels and Wakanda would have to be as admired and sought after in much the same way the Klingon Empire is before Marvel would commit the kind of support needed for the development of an original Wakandan language. It is also possible that a writer may just take the time to create it and give this deserving people a voice all their own.

While Priest was writing BP he would include brackets to indicate when the characters were speaking another language. The brackets were asterisked with a caption that would read translated from the Wakandan or what ever language they were using at the time.

There are many clever ways a writer could acknowledge the existence of the Wakandan language. One could make the Wakandans an ancient people, contemporaries of the Kemetic or Atlantean people, thus being among the first to develop a written language. One could make the argument that Yoruba and Swahili evolved out of the Wakandan language due to ancient Wakandan migrations and settlements. This would explain why these languages are spoken in Wakanda.

I doubt any currently working for marvel would take the time to come up with a full language for the  Wakandans, but using those brackets again would work well & a few words/phase hinting at a Wakandan would great & probably the closest thing we'd ever get to see a Wakandan language. Like somethin like ihy = hey or Luvoe = love  or something...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 04, 2010, 03:42:19 pm

Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.


I think that work kind of well in story because most-all non Afrikan nation shouldn't know where to put Wakanda on a map.. So they just guess where to put it when they make maps/etc & assume its land locked or in a valley & etc... The ppl who know where place Wakanda on a map/actually know how to draw Wakanda map are Wakandan & a few of there neighboring nation.. So I just look at the moving around of Wakanda/ being land lock/not being in a valley/being in a valley/being land lock things.. As westerns & other nation trying figure how to put Wakanda on one there map/guessing what it look like..


But when governments discuss Wakanda's location they're bound to use satellites and updated maps. Unless the country has its own cloaking device they could pinpoint it. Its architecture would stick out.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on June 04, 2010, 05:25:29 pm

Moving Wakanda all over the place doesn't do much to give the place stability.


I think that work kind of well in story because most-all non Afrikan nation shouldn't know where to put Wakanda on a map.. So they just guess where to put it when they make maps/etc & assume its land locked or in a valley & etc... The ppl who know where place Wakanda on a map/actually know how to draw Wakanda map are Wakandan & a few of there neighboring nation.. So I just look at the moving around of Wakanda/ being land lock/not being in a valley/being in a valley/being land lock things.. As westerns & other nation trying figure how to put Wakanda on one there map/guessing what it look like..


But when governments discuss Wakanda's location they're bound to use satellites and updated maps. Unless the country has its own cloaking device they could pinpoint it. Its architecture would stick out.

In both CJP & RH runs T'Challa was shown to be able to hide/cloak diffrent type of Wakanda planes/aircraft without the US knowing about, In CJP run Hunter/Hatut was showing using advanced cloaking in his costume/habit when T'Challa was around 8-12 & the Hatut Zeraze were show costume/habits in CJP runs also.. So I think they have high tech enuff cloaking to hide Wakanda from other nations satellites and updated maps.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 04, 2010, 06:11:39 pm
In both CJP & RH runs T'Challa was shown to be able to hide/cloak diffrent type of Wakanda planes/aircraft without the US knowing about, In CJP run Hunter/Hatut was showing using advanced cloaking in his costume/habit when T'Challa was around 8-12 & the Hatut Zeraze were show costume/habits in CJP runs also.. So I think they have high tech enuff cloaking to hide Wakanda from other nations satellites and updated maps.

But they'll have to retcon how countries don't know where it is. Also Wakanda's neighbors would tell others where it is since they're not friendly with Wakanda. It's good for a complete restart, but not in today's continuum. Whether it's landlocked or not, there isn't much African land today that isn't revealed in the maps. "Dark Africa" doesn't exist anymore, except to a bunch of romantic fools who wish it to remain mysterious.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on June 04, 2010, 06:25:25 pm
In both CJP & RH runs T'Challa was shown to be able to hide/cloak diffrent type of Wakanda planes/aircraft without the US knowing about, In CJP run Hunter/Hatut was showing using advanced cloaking in his costume/habit when T'Challa was around 8-12 & the Hatut Zeraze were show costume/habits in CJP runs also.. So I think they have high tech enuff cloaking to hide Wakanda from other nations satellites and updated maps.

Also Wakanda's neighbors would tell others where it is since they're not friendly with Wakanda.

I'd think they make a lil to afraid to do, because that may mean what & they know what happen when you got to war with the Wakandans i.e bad thing would happen to them..but that just imo.. :D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 04, 2010, 06:33:45 pm
I'd think they make a lil to afraid to do, because that may mean what & they know what happen when you got to war with the Wakandans i.e bad thing would happen to them..but that just imo.. :D

They wouldn't be afraid if those groups first gave them weak promises for support. Wouldn't be the first time an African country got screwed by foreign powers. Once that deal is made, the secret is out. Those neighboring countries would just end up abandoned to their fates.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 04, 2010, 08:56:38 pm
It has been rumored that Wakanda is hidden. That it was very difficult to find. The last time I heard such rumors was early May,1989. “No one knows its exact location. Manages to keep his little nation secret even from satelite probes and all the sophisticated telemetry that orbits the planet. How he manages that is beyond me.”  Anton Pretorius commenting on the genius of Tchalla the Black Panther.

This is one of those things about Wakanda that is often ignored but it doesn't have to be. The writers were left with the task of explaining how Klaw found Wakanda if the entire country is hidden. Simply upgrade Klaw to super genius (after all he has a Ph.D. in physics and is an expert physicist specializing in applied sonics and he did build a machine that could convert sound into mass constructs). Have him be one of the few people (like Dr. Myron MacLain) in possession of a small amount of vibranium and let him  build the first Vibranium Tracker. For further incursions into Wakanda explain the tracker fell into the hands of the Nazis who sold the technology to other countries like Azania. It is then stolen by the Howling Commandos and given to the U.S. Government.

For those thousands of years prior to being able to hide their country, they simply defeated every invader who came their way.

Since Wakanda is so devastated by Doomwar, it would only make since that Tchalla make some defensive improvements. Obviously their ability to hide their country has been severely compromised. So in order to rebuild Wakanda strong again, Tchalla upgrades the Protection Totems to extend a cloak around the entire country. This cloak could work like Doom's refractory technology used in Ironman #149. Another plausible explanation is Tchalla using “Shadow Physics.” He could have Wakanda shift dimensionally, something akin to K'un L'un or the infamous island of Lost. Finally a new writer could simply just explain what  Anton Pretorius described.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 05, 2010, 01:51:00 am
So that would just completely cut off Wakanda from the world, like Themyscira. Except Wakanda has trade relations with other countries. To cut it off like that would undermine their representation and standing as part of the global community. If T'Challa (and Shuri) were to do that, then they have to give up a lot to isolate Wakanda.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 05, 2010, 10:53:06 am
Not necessarily. Wakanda wouldn't be cut off from the world just preemptively protected from the worst parts. Wakanda could still continue its trading through the Wakandan Design Group. Their representation and standing with the global community should remain intact. After all the global community should understand given Wakanda's history and such. Besides the global community still covets vibranium. Think less isolation and more protection.


 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 05, 2010, 04:34:09 pm
Not necessarily. Wakanda wouldn't be cut off from the world just preemptively protected from the worst the parts. Wakanda could still continue its trading through the Wakandan Design Group. Their representation and standing with the global community should remain intact. After all the global community should understand given Wakanda's history and such. Besides the global community still covets vibranium. Think less isolation and more protection.


The world would not see it that way. Having strict limited contact with the outside is no better than isolation. History has proven that countries suffer from closing itself off from the world. People would have less reason to trust Wakanda, and it would lose its voice on world issues. Like Themyscira and Attilan, the world would have less reason to believe its vision of the future if it remains so exclusive. Africa wouldn't look to if it behaves like that. They'd be stuck listening to men like Gaddafi on Africa's future.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 10, 2010, 12:14:18 am
But those shippers got their "RoLo" in the Ultimate Marvel format, didn't they?

Ultimate Ororo is not Kenyan, but Moroccan. More than once, I've seen LCB-RD fanatics, usually x-geeks, claim that Ororo is not Black. Morocco is not Sub-Saharan Africa (Black Africa), but "upper-Sahara" (white/Arab Africa). The first thing they did when they "ultimized" Ororo was to make her "caucasoid" while maintaining the exotic appearance which has made Storm one of the most physically attractive female characters in the entire comicbook industry.

I didn't collect Ultimate X-Men. But I'm using a black Arab singer as a facial reference for my Storm drawings. Her and Pam Grier.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 10, 2010, 05:55:23 am
But those shippers got their "RoLo" in the Ultimate Marvel format, didn't they?

Ultimate Ororo is not Kenyan, but Moroccan. More than once, I've seen LCB-RD fanatics, usually x-geeks, claim that Ororo is not Black. Morocco is not Sub-Saharan Africa (Black Africa), but "upper-Sahara" (white/Arab Africa). The first thing they did when they "ultimized" Ororo was to make her "caucasoid" while maintaining the exotic appearance which has made Storm one of the most physically attractive female characters in the entire comicbook industry.

I didn't collect Ultimate X-Men. But I'm using a black Arab singer as a facial reference for my Storm drawings. Her and Pam Grier.

I couldn't have been paid anything less than a fortune to collect any of Marvel's "x-crement" --  Ultimate or otherwise. I know what I know of Ultimate X-Men from the internet and one comic I found in the trash which I kept because it was illustrated by Adam or Andy Kubert and I happen to enjoy their style.

Good luck on your artistic endeavors. I saw a YouTube feature showing beautiful Black women of various nations and ethnicities. In my always humble opinion, you could not have gone wrong using the facial features of any one of those lovely angels as your reference for Storm.

The only "good" I ever saw in the Ultimate U was the first 2 or 3 issues of Ultimate Capt. Marvel and Brandon Peterson's spectacular artistic effort on Ultimate Vision. Otherwise, as far as I am concerned, the entire Ultimate franchise is just so much cow dung fertilizer and at the top of the list is that abomination called Ultimate Storm.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 10, 2010, 01:59:42 pm
(Ultimate Spider-man line is very good; the only Spidey I buy nowadays.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 14, 2010, 05:32:46 am
Regardless of the final out come of Doomwar, one thing remains become clear. To compare Dr. Doom to the Black Panther is only setting Victor up for yet another humiliating defeat.

Tchalla is respected at home and abroad as a benevolent monarch, while Victor is often seen as a cruel dictator. Doom has repeatedly abused his powers to inflict misery and death upon his own subjects. Doom has retarded the progress of the Latverian people. Everything and everyone serves at the behest or whim of Doom. He has essentially privatized the entire population of Latveria.

We rarely hear about how technologically advanced Latveria is. They appear to be stunted somewhere around the 17th century. Wakanda on the other hand is heralded as one of the most the most technologically advanced nations in the world.

In further regards lets look at two people who know both Victor and Tchalla well. First Prince Namor. He has far greater trust in Tchalla's leadership abilities than he does Victor. This he demonstrated by seeking Tchalla's council during the superhero civil war and the dark reign of Norman Osborn.

Second, Reed Richards, who has more respect for Tchalla as a leader of a nation than he has ever had for Victor's leadership. Reed never went to Wakanda with the intent to liberate the people but he has saw fit to do so in Latveria.

There is also the nation of Inhuman's king Blackbolt, who demonstrated his faith in Tchalla's leadership when he asked Tchalla to intercede on their behalf in their impending war with humanity. Captain America believed in Tchalla's enough to ask him to join the Avengers, quell a potentially riotous crowd and seek his aid during the superhero civil war.

Tchalla is emotionally and mentally stable. Doom can conquer the world then relinquish it due to boredom. Mentally weak. Doom's language is laden with disparaging comments about women mutants, aliens, Afrakans and just about anyone he encounters. A sure sign of inferiority complex. Doom is an extremely insecure man. Just look at his irrational hatred and sick obsession with Reed Richards and his abuses of women and children. Doom has never had a queen as co regent. He has never married and would rather clone himself than produce an heir with a woman.


He is obviously anti-family. Doom doesn't even know how to have a healthy relationship as evident by his lack of friends and a social life. Doom is antisocial. He surrounds himself with automatrons and yes men.

Doom may have suffered more defeats and setbacks than any other character in Marvel history. Doom has had so many losses at the hands of the FF that he wound up joining them. Doom lost his kingdom to a child then came to Tchalla begging for help.

Doom has never conquered Wakanda. Never. He has never occupied the throne. He organized a coup d'etat (with the help of the dissident group Desturi) so he could stay safe in the background (because he's a coward), he stole some vibranium (because he's an unscrupulous thief), he murdered innocents (because he's a callous killer) but he never conquered Wakanda. However Tchalla did shut down Latveria's automated military defense with only one ship using an emp.

Simply put Doom is a racist, sexist, ego maniacal, self serving, polymath with delusions of grandeur. Who in their right mind would want to live under his rulership?

This brief examination clearly demonstrates who is the better man. Congratulations Tchalla.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 14, 2010, 07:55:22 am
<<Doom has never conquered Wakanda. Never. He has never occupied the throne.>>

Unless you think conquer means miltary, Doom did rule Wakanda (and rest of the world) in Emperor Doom graphic novel.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 14, 2010, 05:59:43 pm
(Ultimate Spider-man line is very good; the only Spidey I buy nowadays.)

I have absolutely no interest in that character and most like him whether it be in the Ultimate or 616 format. I DO plan to pull Ultimate X #3 but only because of the very interesting looking winged black character featured in the book. The rest of the book seems to focus on the perverse obsession many writers and most of the LCB-RD apparently has for the wolverine sexually-tinged pursuit of Jean Grey.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 14, 2010, 06:11:21 pm
Ultimate Wolverine is dead.  And it doesn't look like he's coming back.  Though they have introduced his son who seems to be nothing like the old man.  For one thing he looks normal.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 14, 2010, 06:22:09 pm
Ultimate Wolverine is dead.  And it doesn't look like he's coming back.  Though they have introduced his son who seems to be nothing like the old man.  For one thing he looks normal.

Yes, I saw that Ultimate Wolverine was dead. I also saw that his son "Jimmy Hudson" was popping claws in played-out wolverine fashion, that Jimmy was taller and blonder than his pop, closer to Jean Grey's age and ready to take up where his dad left off with regard to the wolverine lust for Jean Grey. I can do without that and without most of the repetitive storylines of the "major characters" of the Ult. or 616 format. I'm picking up Ultimate X #3 for the winged brother.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 15, 2010, 12:11:14 pm
Hey Kip, it would seem that there was some confusion on the details of that event. There seems to be no real evidence that Wakanda was ever under Doom's influence. Not one panel or reference to Wakanda. I hypothesize that Wakandans are immune to the Purple Man's power. In addition the supposed events of Emperor Doom takes place during 1987. It is documented that post Klaw's invasion through 1989 that Wakanda was so difficult to find that no one knew its exact location. No one. Wakanda managed to keep itself hidden from satelite probes and all the sophisticated telemetry that orbits the planet. This cloaking field may also be responsible for protecting Wakanda from Kilgrave's affects.  Not to mention that Wakanda never referenced the event. A nation that was never conquered would surely document such a happening, especially now that they are at war with Doom.



 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 15, 2010, 01:18:08 pm
Doom knew about Wakanda, but the reason we know the Wakandans fell is the reason Doom gave up this scheme.

Doom was bored with the administrative duties of running a mind-controlled world.  When Wonder Man showed up immune to purple man's powers, Doom was excited about the idea of a challenge.

So if the Wakandans remained free of Doom's control, he'd have his challenge and would never have given up control.

Oh, the story may have been published in 87, but with Marvel's sliding time scale, it happened after the West Coast Avengers came into existance.  And that was long after the world knew about Wakanda.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 15, 2010, 02:42:15 pm
Doom knew about Wakanda, but the reason we know the Wakandans fell is the reason Doom gave up this scheme.

Doom was bored with the administrative duties of running a mind-controlled world.  When Wonder Man showed up immune to purple man's powers, Doom was excited about the idea of a challenge.

So if the Wakandans remained free of Doom's control, he'd have his challenge and would never have given up control.

Oh, the story may have been published in 87, but with Marvel's sliding time scale, it happened after the West Coast Avengers came into existance.  And that was long after the world knew about Wakanda.

That not even the first time he pulled the plantetary mind-control scheme.

The FIRST time he used a gas of some sort that made everybody who breathed it subject to Dooms will.

After a while, he freed Magento out of boredom and challenged him to a contest for the world(notice he didn't free Reed, Doom was bored not stupid).

After finding that Doom had mind controlled the Avengers, Magento of course went to the X-men but couldn't find them so he then went to the Champions and got them to help him. Doom's guys (the Avengers) were beating Magneto's guys (the Champions) then to add insult to injury Doom took over the Champions too as he could have done all along (but didn't cuz he just wanted a good fight).    

Mistake.

See at that time Ghost Rider was a member ofthe Champions, and doesn't need to breathe (being a demon and all). He was the only guy there not affected by Doom's mind control gas. So G.R. Fireballed Doom in the face, forcing Doom to take off his now red hot mask.

With its built in gas filters.

So Doom's affected by the mind control gas too. Since the gas made everybody who breathed it subject to Dooms will, ol' Vic freaked out screaming for orders that weren't coming, as he was the guy who was supposed to give them.  Since Doom's was now schizo everybody else was freed from his control.

After essentally pointing and laughing at Doom's plight, Magneto...just leaves as he is in such a good mood at having screwed over Doom that he doesn't even bother to take advantage of the situation.

Eventually the gas wore off and everybody forgot the entire thing ever happened including Doom.

It is  why Doom pulled the same trick twice.

He didn't REMEMBER doing it the first time.

Doom ALWAYS has the upper hand.

...until he loses.

If he wins anything substantial in Doomwar it will be something of a first for him.

Doom has 2 more issues of Doomwar to slip on a banana peel like he always does.

It's why I can't get worked up over his alleged good showing.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 15, 2010, 11:49:40 pm
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

The answer is quite simple. That is not the real Tchalla aka the Black Panther. It is a robot. More specifically a Tchalla-bot.

If we examine the evidence we find the last time the real Tchalla appeared was during the Skrull's Secret Invasion. After crushing their attempt to conquer Wakanda he personally led a squadron of  Wakandan shock troopers into deep space to confront the remaining Skrulls now in rout.

Tchalla has obviously learned a few tricks from his many confrontations with Victor. One was how to steal the power cosmic and the second was the use of surrogates.

Think about it. Could the Shadow King have taken over the real Tchalla. No. Due to his connection with the Panther Spirit and mental prowess the latter of which even impressed Cable.

Storm knew it was a Tchalla-bot and preferred not to interact with it any more than necessary. She was informed that she would have to go through several trials as queen during Tchalla's absence. The first to be willing to sacrifice her self, the second commune with the Panther Spirit and finally be willing to relinquish the throne if she chose not to be the BP.
 
The Tchalla-bot also explains why Shuri was not accepted by the Panther Spirit.

“The book won't end the way a lot of people think it will. And I may get burned at the stake for how I end things, but I maintain that it is the best way to end this story.”  Maberry ;) ;D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 16, 2010, 05:35:59 am
Nope, not a Pantherbot (though I have wondered if he has them).

No what really happened is worse.  We're going to find out that the Skrulls actually won.  What we didn't see was right after the final page when all Wakandan tech was still down, the next wave of Skrulls showed up with all their working weapons and ships and vaporized the nearly Wakandan military.  The Desturi are actually the true Wakandans and their rebelling against the Skrulls.  BP, Shuri and Storm are Skrulls.

(The sad thing is someone might actually write this.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 16, 2010, 10:08:46 am
That would the dumbest written retcon I will ever read in my life. Retcons are apart of comics but they also have to make sense.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on June 16, 2010, 02:36:29 pm
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong.  (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)

Ture was being ironic.

I'm suprised so many of you including Reginald Hudlin failed to realise this.

My understanding of what Ture was doing was that he was actually complimenting the great things that Mr Hudlin did with T'Challa, Ororo and Wakanda as a whole whilst exposing the hypocrisy of the haters who criticise all the things Hudlin brought to the integrity of the central character.

Ture was actually giving Mr Hudlin rightly deserved props.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Mastrmynd on June 16, 2010, 02:57:58 pm
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

The answer is quite simple. That is not the real Tchalla aka the Black Panther. It is a robot. More specifically a Tchalla-bot.

If we examine the evidence we find the last time the real Tchalla appeared was during the Skrull's Secret Invasion. After crushing their attempt to conquer Wakanda he personally led a squadron of  Wakandan shock troopers into deep space to confront the remaining Skrulls now in rout.

Tchalla has obviously learned a few tricks from his many confrontations with Victor. One was how to steal the power cosmic and the second was the use of surrogates.

Think about it. Could the Shadow King have taken over the real Tchalla. No. Due to his connection with the Panther Spirit and mental prowess the latter of which even impressed Cable.

Storm knew it was a Tchalla-bot and preferred not to interact with it any more than necessary. She was informed that she would have to go through several trials as queen during Tchalla's absence. The first to be willing to sacrifice her self, the second commune with the Panther Spirit and finally be willing to relinquish the throne if she chose not to be the BP.
 
The Tchalla-bot also explains why Shuri was not accepted by the Panther Spirit.

“The book won't end the way a lot of people think it will. And I may get burned at the stake for how I end things, but I maintain that it is the best way to end this story.”  Maberry ;) ;D

a tchalla bot? hmmm. u really believe this? i could come around to your thinking just as long as tchalla was the real tchalla when he married ororo
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Kimoyo on June 16, 2010, 06:30:58 pm
Nope, not a Pantherbot (though I have wondered if he has them).

No what really happened is worse.  We're going to find out that the Skrulls actually won.  What we didn't see was right after the final page when all Wakandan tech was still down, the next wave of Skrulls showed up with all their working weapons and ships and vaporized the nearly Wakandan military.  The Desturi are actually the true Wakandans and their rebelling against the Skrulls.  BP, Shuri and Storm are Skrulls.

(The sad thing is someone might actually write this.)

Damn Kip, I'm tempted to campaign for your "Honorary Wakandan" status to be revoked for suggesting this might happen!  But since I know of Marvel's policy of staying away from any fan generated story ideas you just might be our hero!?!   :)

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 16, 2010, 08:51:10 pm
No Kip the truth is even uglier. This is the clone of Luke Charles, a retired teacher who found an ancient Mayan amulet in the sewers of New York. It had a cracked head and a missing paw. So Kip gets to keep his "Honorary Wakandan" status Kimoyo.
You know it was the real Tchalla when he married Ororo, Mastermind. Just look at all those passionate love scenes. Thanks Reg.
Salustrade you are quite right.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on June 17, 2010, 07:37:50 am
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 18, 2010, 06:13:33 am
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...


With apologies to the great Isley Brothers: 

It's their thing.
They do what they want to do.
Neither you, nor I...nor any other non-LCB-RD sort\
may tell them who to sock it to.

Therefore, they've been socking it to T'Challa and most every other black comicbook character for a long time and will continue to do so as long as it puts the duckets in their buckets.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on June 18, 2010, 01:21:52 pm
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...


With apologies to the great Isley Brothers: 

It's their thing.
They do what they want to do.
Neither you, nor I...nor any other non-LCB-RD sort\
may tell them who to sock it to.

Therefore, they've been socking it to T'Challa and most every other black comicbook character for a long time and will continue to do so as long as it puts the duckets in their buckets.

I don't get how T'challa isn't the star of Doomwar. But for some odd reason...we are getting news about everyone else except him. Storm, Doom who is the title star, Shuri, The FF, War Machine, Deadpool....

But T'challa "I'm not the Star of Doomwar" for some reason there is no news.

I don't see how this is a "big year" to T'challa. It's been almost two years...and he is no where in Sept. Solits.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 19, 2010, 05:23:40 am
Doomwar has left many readers bewildered. Some have commented on how strange Tchalla has been acting. “This is not the way Tchalla would  confront Doom.”  “Tchalla is a master strategist but he is not acting like one.” During the Power story line, Tchalla had very little interaction with Storm supposedly due to her infestation with nanites. If we look back during Deadliest of the Species we see a Tchalla that is caught unaware. He was unprepared and incapable of dodging a single blast from Dooms gauntlet. When we examine Worlds Apart we see a Tchalla who is taken over mentally by the Shadow King. What is going on?

Agreed. T'challa has been owned since August 2008...and had done NOTHING AT ALL since then but be owned by others. You see the same in Fall of Hulks...come on Marvel...what the F is going on? Oh, I forget he's perfect...


With apologies to the great Isley Brothers: 

It's their thing.
They do what they want to do.
Neither you, nor I...nor any other non-LCB-RD sort\
may tell them who to sock it to.

Therefore, they've been socking it to T'Challa and most every other black comicbook character for a long time and will continue to do so as long as it puts the duckets in their buckets.

I don't get how T'challa isn't the star of Doomwar. But for some odd reason...we are getting news about everyone else except him. Storm, Doom who is the title star, Shuri, The FF, War Machine, Deadpool....

But T'challa "I'm not the Star of Doomwar" for some reason there is no news.

I don't see how this is a "big year" to T'challa. It's been almost two years...and he is no where in Sept. Solits.

I don't know what to say, Seven. Supreme has seen something which has him excited about the future of T'Challa - an excitement I'm sure extends to Storm and to Shuri as well. In light of Supreme's optimism my only counsel is patience at this point. Events aren't going to move any faster than we want them to. We won't learn what is to become of T'Challa, Storm, Shuri, et al until it happens. If we are displeased with what transpires in the future, at that point we should try to give anyone who reads this great forum the greatest magnitude of HEF HELL imaginable.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 19, 2010, 11:47:40 pm

Waiting for the "Hail Mary" issue number six is setting one's self up for a major disappointment. Writing Doomwar should have been analogous to playing both sides of the chessboard. Strategies that mask moves, immediate sacrifices for future gains, tactical defenses setting up counter offenses. As with most “things” Black Panther, Doomwar  should have been one for the record books. These “things” are the, World War Hulk tie in, Worlds Apart and the lead in to Doomwar, Power. Instead they were missed opportunities for the Black Panther to really showcase his areas of expertise. Thankfully however we did get The Bride, World Tour, Black To The Future and Secret Invasion.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 21, 2010, 09:20:06 pm
Another insightful poster Onyenkwere had this to say:

"It's a race based issue. End of story.
The fictional Wakandans are African and for some strange "unknown" some readers can't bring themselves to accept Wakanda and her people as viable entities without also attaching all manner of negatives to their character."

"This is clearly illustrated in the persistent and pronounced questioning of any and all feats achieved by T'Challa as the Black Panther with some readers frothing rabidly at the proverbial mouth anytime T'Challa is accurately portrayed as the charismatic, mysterious and exceedingly able protagonist that he is."

"Very few heroes in the MU are placed under the intense scrutiny that T'Challa is and after awhile, one gets really fed up of the blatant double-standards that seem to obtain whenever Wakanda and T'Challa are in the frame."

"I guess some folks don't like the concept of a totally self-sufficient and advanced sovereign African nation fictional or otherwise."

NUFF SAID
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 22, 2010, 03:33:39 am
Not disagreeing, but there is an additional factor--something I have seen in the last 20 years and isn't limited to comics.  I call it the "tarnishing of Heroes"

On Deep Space Nine, Odo was a man of utmost integrity, until they decide to tell a story to show us that he doesn't shine so bright--he didn't always have integrity; he cheated the system once.

Recently, we have seen Professor X turned from an honest man who sought the best for his students and the world to a cold Machevellin manipulator who got a team of mutants killed and hid it.  Then he knowingly enslaves a new form of life to serve his purposes.  (Edited/Addition: I think no one has been humiliated, jerked around and written down as much as Xavier.  He was once "George Washington"--the hero of his people, the man with the Dream, the one they all trusted and looked up to.  Now he is a cross between Nixon and George W Bush.  He has betrayed them, betrayed his "son" and they no longer trust him as their leader.)

Tony Stark became such a jerk that the only way to save the character as a hero was erase his memory and start over.

Reed Richards takes his absent mindedness to abanding his principles and he and Tony build Clor that kills Goliath.

Doctor Strange starts making so many mistakes (bad ones) he's fired.

Then there is the whole Illumanti buisness--it was written to tarnish the great heros.

Then Peter makes a deal with the devil.

Thor went insane with the Odin-power and took over the earth.

There is a group of fans/writers who cannot bear "perfect" high-standard heroes, so they have to taint them.  

Look at the movies, Superman is a peeping tom and Batman let's his enemy die when he could have saved him.  "I don't have to save you" he says.  Batman, the superhero, would because he is "better than us."

The excuse they use is "better drama" or "Perfect is boring" or "more realistic", but the truth is, they cannot see the possibility of or advantages of having nobler heroes.

So, if they cannot accept perfect in the "big guys", and for some,when you add in racist attitudes, then of course they cannot accept perfect Wakanda.

(BTW, these comments are meant as generalizations, not absolutes; some people may want more drama in Wakanda for other reasons.  Nor am I saying that "perfect is boring" is necessarily wrong.  Sometimes I think that, but I also think that making sure no one "shines" isn't healthy either.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 22, 2010, 07:36:04 am
"Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum." -Gregory "Pappy" Boyington.

So there's a real world component to this thinking in the media.

Look, Batman who has more issues than a comic book store is generally considered to be far more interesting than Superman who doesn't have these issue (in print, anyway).

D.C. also made Hal Jordan a drunk driver.

They made Katar Hol (Hawkman) an alcholic.

Oliver Queen is a serial womanizer who cheats on his super-heroing girlfriend.

This stuff is supposed to make characters more interesting.

Even if the Wakandans were all White and not in Africa writers would eventually be bored
with writing about near-utopia and would start to mess with it. Paradise Island and Aquaman's
Atlantis get blown up so often that its funny.






Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 23, 2010, 03:39:17 am
I don't think it's funny that Paradise Island keeps getting attacked. The constant destruction of certain places is one of the reasons I'm tired of this post-80's trend for edgier stories. You could pull it off in a movie because it's a different medium. But a serials leads to make the reader wonder WTF is wrong with these people. I don't read DC anymore partly because of that. Doesn't matter to me who inherits the mantle or who comes back. It's become insane.

What exactly are these heroes fighting for if they must make grevious mistakes that tarnish their image? I wouldn't mind if Wakanda kept using landmines, or executed traitors, as long as they frame the issue as part of the country's progress. Writers can't just bring these things up and forget them later because those are important issues.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 27, 2010, 10:52:40 pm
I agree with you Kip. The dismantling of the superhero image is a reality we have to consider in the modern age of comics. The concepts of morality, and integrity appear dated. The courage of facing overwhelmingly superior odds at great personal sacrifice seems outmoded. I remember what they did to Tony Stark making him an agent of Kang and then killing him in a last ditch effort at some kind of redemption. The mockery they made of Peter Parker during Civil War was disheartening.

I recall 2 women discussing who they would want to be saved by. They were comparing Superman and Wolverine. The women decided on Wolverine.  I asked them why, stating the obvious power differentials and described a variety perils they could find themselves in.  They said they chose Wolverine because after being saved they could have a threesome. They made other sexual  comments inappropriate to print on this site. Suffice it to say they think Superman is boring and possibly gay. They hate the iconic uniform and prefer a hero in tight jeans, who gets drunk and kills anyone that gets in his way.

The concept that Marvel pioneered about the superhero being more realistic and relatable or being infirmed or having some of the same challenges and circumstances as the common everyday citizen has been repurposed.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 27, 2010, 11:46:09 pm
Do those same women also prefer Edward Cullen over Jacob Black? Or do they prefer the much older Lestat?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 04:37:05 am
Thank you, Ture. Thank you, Onyenkwere.

Another insightful poster Onyenkwere had this to say:
"It's a race based issue. End of story.

This very succinct, accurate and irrefutable statement completely and conclusively summarizes the discussion of why "black comics" can't sell and why the Black Panther and other black comic characters continue to languish in near obscurity and are often regarded with disdain and in many cases, with open hostility by a significant segment of the LCB-RD. The Black Panther is the first modern-era "black superhero". Luke Cage was Marvel Comics' first "black-American superhero". However, it has been Storm who has enjoyed unprecedented acclaim where black comicbook characters are concerned.

I am convinced that Storm's exotic appearance is a major reason for her success and widespread acceptance. Indeed, it has been Storm's exotic appearance which many LCB-RD types insist upon as proof that Storm is not truly black and it is this - Storm's not being "truly black" - combined with the fact that until fairly recently, her character has been surrounded by mostly white characters, which is responsible for her character being catapulted to heights never achieved by the Panther, Cage, or the Falcon. The 3-part Contest Of Champions featured a small panel showing Storm in the company of T'Challa, Cage, the Falcon, and the Australian character Talisman - whose power was the "Dreamtime" - is one of the few times I can remember her character in the company of other black Marvel superheroes. The only other times I remember Storm being in the company of black characters were always negative in nature. There were 2 such instances. The first featured Ororo walking along a city street in civilian clothes and being approached/"accosted" by a black male wearing a white, wide-brimmed hat with a feather in the band - the formula it seems, for depicting black male "streetwise" types. Clearly, the young man was only attracted to Ororo and did not seem to be inappropriate in manner. Ororo drenched him with a mini-rainshower to indicate her disinterest. The second was when Luke Cage and Misty Knight attempted to help Ororo in finding her U.S. family members. Their search led the trio to a filthy, crack-addict infested house which used to belong to Ororo's Aunt.  

"Race-based issue" is absolutely correct. When whites write the stories, you have Ororo swooning when kissed by Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Forge, and Thor. When approached by a young black male however, she dismisses him with a mini-typhoon. When whites write the stories you get situations like a so-called "racist" Wakandan woman being impregnated by a Russian male, giving birth to her mutant son and then rejecting that son because although Nezhno was the fruit of her womb, in her white male-written mindset, her own son was a detestable out-worlder. This is the device used by that white writer to show LCB-RD readers of that x-crement publication, how Wakanda's rejection of him drove Nezhno back into the fold of "the only people who ever seemed to care for him." This and other devices - such as creating notoriously weak black characters when compared to more powerful white characters (Blue Marvel was a recent departure from this practice) is how black characters are kept in lesser positions to their white counterparts, as if their black skin wasn't enough of an obstacle for them to overcome in this still very-racist world we all call home.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 05:19:48 am
Another insightful poster Onyenkwere had this to say:

"It's a race based issue. End of story.
The fictional Wakandans are African and for some strange "unknown" some readers can't bring themselves to accept Wakanda and her people as viable entities without also attaching all manner of negatives to their character."

"This is clearly illustrated in the persistent and pronounced questioning of any and all feats achieved by T'Challa as the Black Panther with some readers frothing rabidly at the proverbial mouth anytime T'Challa is accurately portrayed as the charismatic, mysterious and exceedingly able protagonist that he is."

"Very few heroes in the MU are placed under the intense scrutiny that T'Challa is and after awhile, one gets really fed up of the blatant double-standards that seem to obtain whenever Wakanda and T'Challa are in the frame."

"I guess some folks don't like the concept of a totally self-sufficient and advanced sovereign African nation fictional or otherwise."

NUFF SAID

Let's take the fictional into the world of non-fiction. In my always humble opinion (IMAHO) art continues to imitate life.

Quote
The fictional Wakandans are African and for some strange "unknown" some readers can't bring themselves to accept Wakanda and her people as viable entities without also attaching all manner of negatives to their character."

The Georgetown Hoyas Basketball team is very much a non-fictional and profoundly-viable entity. A decade removed from Texas Western's stunning NCAA Championship victory over Adolph Rupp's Kentucky team (Texas Western started and played 5 black players the entire game shattering yet another white racist myth that the black player was too undisciplined to defeat a skilled white team) this racist banner "John Thompson the n----r coach must go" hung from the rafters in the arena where the Hoyas played basketball. The white racist who hung the banner was obviously disturbed about Thompson's Hoya's .500 record that year and the fact that his team fielded only black players.

After steady improvement, GU played UNC's Tarheels for the NCAA Championship, still fielding an entirely black team. They lost the game in the final moments, but the ascendancy of the program was in full swing. In 1984, Georgetown would defeat Hakeem Olajuwon and the Houston Cougars to win the championship. Along the way, GU would play and humiliate an all-white Brigham Young U team. GU's physical play, rugged defense and athleticism caused many observers to label the team as thugs and Thompson a thug as well, "attaching all manner of negatives to their character." Georgetown's basketball program has remained one of the nation's best now for a quarter century. Throughout, the program has been dogged by race-based negatives.

This sort of race-based scrutiny doesn't only manifest in athletics and entertainment, but in every endeavor where a significant segment of the white population is threatened by anything that seems to smack of black unity, black excellence, black pride; black power. Nothing in the comicbook industry says black pride, black power as loudly and proudly as T'Challa, the Black Panther. T'Challa has always been and will always be subjected to intense negative scrutiny, criticism and open hostility by a large segment of the LCB-RD. "Poison pen" comments by LCB-RD types who don't even buy his books will always serve to discourage any member of the LCB-RD who might be interested in the character and purchasing the book from doing so.

Quote
"I guess some folks don't like the concept of a totally self-sufficient and advanced sovereign African nation fictional or otherwise."

Some folks don't like the concept nor the reality of proficiency, excellence; success evidenced by black people. It's the element of that warped race-based perception which permeates all that is largely responsible.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 05:38:13 am
Not disagreeing, but there is an additional factor--something I have seen in the last 20 years and isn't limited to comics.  I call it the "tarnishing of Heroes"

On Deep Space Nine, Odo was a man of utmost integrity, until they decide to tell a story to show us that he doesn't shine so bright--he didn't always have integrity; he cheated the system once.

Recently, we have seen Professor X turned from an honest man who sought the best for his students and the world to a cold Machevellin manipulator who got a team of mutants killed and hid it.  Then he knowingly enslaves a new form of life to serve his purposes.  (Edited/Addition: I think no one has been humiliated, jerked around and written down as much as Xavier.  He was once "George Washington"--the hero of his people, the man with the Dream, the one they all trusted and looked up to.  Now he is a cross between Nixon and George W Bush.  He has betrayed them, betrayed his "son" and they no longer trust him as their leader.)

Tony Stark became such a jerk that the only way to save the character as a hero was erase his memory and start over.

Reed Richards takes his absent mindedness to abanding his principles and he and Tony build Clor that kills Goliath.

Doctor Strange starts making so many mistakes (bad ones) he's fired.

Then there is the whole Illumanti buisness--it was written to tarnish the great heros.

Then Peter makes a deal with the devil.

Thor went insane with the Odin-power and took over the earth.

There is a group of fans/writers who cannot bear "perfect" high-standard heroes, so they have to taint them.  

Look at the movies, Superman is a peeping tom and Batman let's his enemy die when he could have saved him.  "I don't have to save you" he says.  Batman, the superhero, would because he is "better than us."

The excuse they use is "better drama" or "Perfect is boring" or "more realistic", but the truth is, they cannot see the possibility of or advantages of having nobler heroes.

So, if they cannot accept perfect in the "big guys", and for some,when you add in racist attitudes, then of course they cannot accept perfect Wakanda.

(BTW, these comments are meant as generalizations, not absolutes; some people may want more drama in Wakanda for other reasons.  Nor am I saying that "perfect is boring" is necessarily wrong.  Sometimes I think that, but I also think that making sure no one "shines" isn't healthy either.)

On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well...very well in fact. From his humble beginnings as a short, squat, ill-tempered, berserk/undisciplined fighter with an ugly addiction to smokes and alcohol and an even uglier face, Wolverine has become just a bit taller, just a bit better proportioned. He isn't as ill-tempered as he was first depicted. Today, Wolverine is a sensei, a Zen master. He has been endowed with a healing factor which slows his aging and apparently, improves his homely facial appearance. He has gone from a savage shrimp to an elegant eternal. Because he has lived so long and has experienced so much in that expanded lifetime, Wolverine is an expert in all fighting disciplines and has acquired a genius intellect.

The man can heal from an injury so devastating that it reduces the whole of what he is to a single drop of blood.

Perfection, thy name is Wolverine.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 28, 2010, 06:04:56 am
However, doesn't anybody find it strange there are so many Superman-based characters that deconstruct the 2D nobility of superheroes? It's fair to say the 80's cynicsm has already done irreparable damage to any good superhero.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 28, 2010, 06:28:43 am
<<On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well>>

Which proves my point--the reason Wolverine wasn't tarnished was that he was always tanrished.  Some of the things they added, like making him a samuraii, was to shine him up a bit, but ultimately, his sucess is due in large part to the fact that he was what people wanted--tarnished heroes.  He was heroic because it was a job, he's a tad crazy, he liked to fight but never, or rarely, have we seen Wolvie esposing a "higher calling".  (Which, btw, BP does and it works against him in a society that expects all leaders to be corrupt.  If BP was actually secretly corrupt, people might like him better, but being the nobliest hero, works against him in an era that doesn't believe in heroes.)

Of course, all this happened because super-hero comics forgot that these guys have to be relatable to kids, and kids understand and want noble heroes.  And it is the kids audience that will sustain comics into the future.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 28, 2010, 06:55:02 am
So if a black Superman was as flawed as the Homelander in "The Boys", or any of the other parodies, would readers like him better? I doubt that. Movie Blade was cool because he was the lone hero in a world that didn't know vampires were the rulers. Writers just need to better describe the setting of the conflict. That will show why heroes need to be good and noble in the midst of the chaos.

In one of my favorite fanfiction stories, Domino was discussing the mentality of Colossus against his fellow X-Men. Claremont and others never really took into account how much a Soviet Slavic upbringing could shape that young man. The writer said Colossus fought because he didn't think there was anything better. His fellow X-Men fought because they do believe the World can become better.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 07:13:12 am
<<On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well>>

Which proves my point--the reason Wolverine wasn't tarnished was that he was always tanrished.  Some of the things they added, like making him a samuraii, was to shine him up a bit, but ultimately, his sucess is due in large part to the fact that he was what people wanted--tarnished heroes.  He was heroic because it was a job, he's a tad crazy, he liked to fight but never, or rarely, have we seen Wolvie esposing a "higher calling".  (Which, btw, BP does and it works against him in a society that expects all leaders to be corrupt.  If BP was actually secretly corrupt, people might like him better, but being the nobliest hero, works against him in an era that doesn't believe in heroes.)

The Black Panther was very noble in Avengers #52 when after defeating the Grim Reaper and saving Avengers Hawkeye, Wasp, and Goliath, he accepted the official invitation to join the Avengers with these words: "Then let the word go forth...that today, you have gained a new ally...one who has given up a throne, that he may better serve a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself! For now, the Panther is truly an Avenger!!"

I would think T'Challa's sentiment expressed by that emphatic statement would have garnered the character LCB-RD fans who would be loyal to present day. This is a T'Challa who was willing to leave Wakanda, surrender his throne, to serve what his character stated was "a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself!" The LCB-RD seems to want their Black Panther both ways, all ways, because in truth, many of the LCB-RD doesn't want the Black Panther at all. Some say T'Challa only cares for Wakandans primarily, perhaps black people secondarily..and if you happen to be a white out-worlder you're just S.O.L. Here is a T'Challa who was overjoyed and honored to have become an Avenger and was willing to spend most of his waking hours in the U.S. fighting alongside the Avengers in defense of a kingdom "greater" than Wakanda.

But wait, Christopher Priest - a brilliant writer to be sure - introduces Panther stories told through the perceptions of a white man, introduces T'Challa's white half-brother who leads a secret police organization outfitted in white Black Panther habits. Priest's T'Challa had a serious romantic involvement with a white woman - something that seems to tarnish black males and at least 2 black superheroes - Hancock and John Stewart - both of whom had their onscreen smooches with white women roundly criticized in some circles. Christopher Priest writes a T'Challa who is slowly losing his mind and prone to grievous errors in judgement, but the topper is this:

Christopher Priest wrote a Panther who completely trashed the reputation and "good will" of the T'Challa in Avengers #52 and other earlier issues of the book. Christopher Priest tarnished T'Challa's image by having the character admit that the only reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. That "secret" agenda of spying on people he'd pledged his honor to as an ally seems a sufficiently "corrupt" act to have tarnished T'Challa to the point where the perception of his nobility would be irrevocably altered. In some cases, I'm sure T'Challa's admission did tarnish him in the eyes of some fans, those fans who didn't already consider him tarnished, that is.

T'Challa was already tarnished in the eyes of many of that certain segment of the LCB-RD. Priest's further tarnishing of the character didn't seem to improve T'Challa's standing with them, nor did it seem to help him with the LCB-RD overall.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 28, 2010, 09:35:42 am
All the above did was to make B.P.'s joining of the Avengers more "logical" in retrospect.

It doesn't make Black Panther a true anti-hero like Wolverine and the Punisher are (the only reason that the Punisher doesn't have a bigger mass media imprint than he does is the fact that he's suffered from two really bad movies-the Thomas Jane movie was the only decent one and he wasn't in the sequel). Those guy follow thier own hyper-violent code of justice. So does Batman but his code stops short of killing (at least in the Comics-Tim Burton's Batman kills and Nolan's Batman refused to save Ras Al Ghul). But in many ways he is as ethically dark as Wolverine and Punisher are.   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on June 28, 2010, 09:43:55 am
<<On the other hand, Wolverine has done quite well>>

Which proves my point--the reason Wolverine wasn't tarnished was that he was always tanrished.  Some of the things they added, like making him a samuraii, was to shine him up a bit, but ultimately, his sucess is due in large part to the fact that he was what people wanted--tarnished heroes.  He was heroic because it was a job, he's a tad crazy, he liked to fight but never, or rarely, have we seen Wolvie esposing a "higher calling".  (Which, btw, BP does and it works against him in a society that expects all leaders to be corrupt.  If BP was actually secretly corrupt, people might like him better, but being the nobliest hero, works against him in an era that doesn't believe in heroes.)

The Black Panther was very noble in Avengers #52 when after defeating the Grim Reaper and saving Avengers Hawkeye, Wasp, and Goliath, he accepted the official invitation to join the Avengers with these words: "Then let the word go forth...that today, you have gained a new ally...one who has given up a throne, that he may better serve a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself! For now, the Panther is truly an Avenger!!"

I would think T'Challa's sentiment expressed by that emphatic statement would have garnered the character LCB-RD fans who would be loyal to present day. This is a T'Challa who was willing to leave Wakanda, surrender his throne, to serve what his character stated was "a greater kingdom...the whole of mankind itself!" The LCB-RD seems to want their Black Panther both ways, all ways, because in truth, many of the LCB-RD doesn't want the Black Panther at all. Some say T'Challa only cares for Wakandans primarily, perhaps black people secondarily..and if you happen to be a white out-worlder you're just S.O.L. Here is a T'Challa who was overjoyed and honored to have become an Avenger and was willing to spend most of his waking hours in the U.S. fighting alongside the Avengers in defense of a kingdom "greater" than Wakanda.

But wait, Christopher Priest - a brilliant writer to be sure - introduces Panther stories told through the perceptions of a white man, introduces T'Challa's white half-brother who leads a secret police organization outfitted in white Black Panther habits. Priest's T'Challa had a serious romantic involvement with a white woman - something that seems to tarnish black males and at least 2 black superheroes - Hancock and John Stewart - both of whom had their onscreen smooches with white women roundly criticized in some circles. Christopher Priest writes a T'Challa who is slowly losing his mind and prone to grievous errors in judgement, but the topper is this:

Christopher Priest wrote a Panther who completely trashed the reputation and "good will" of the T'Challa in Avengers #52 and other earlier issues of the book. Christopher Priest tarnished T'Challa's image by having the character admit that the only reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. That "secret" agenda of spying on people he'd pledged his honor to as an ally seems a sufficiently "corrupt" act to have tarnished T'Challa to the point where the perception of his nobility would be irrevocably altered. In some cases, I'm sure T'Challa's admission did tarnish him in the eyes of some fans, those fans who didn't already consider him tarnished, that is.

T'Challa was already tarnished in the eyes of many of that certain segment of the LCB-RD. Priest's further tarnishing of the character didn't seem to improve T'Challa's standing with them, nor did it seem to help him with the LCB-RD overall.

Priest had the right idea. Everything he did was not correct, but they were moves that pretty much shut down a lot of B.S. I had no issue with Hunter. He was irony at it’s best…and pretty much kills the notion that “wakandans are racist” he was a super-partiot and was not actually wakandan.

The reason Priest run, like others did not get love is because despite those things. T’challa was a complete bad ass during his run. He wasn’t a clown. He had flaws…but he was still the most dangerous man in Marvel U.  He made Ironman look *stupid*…totally and he even had G. Johns on board with that characterization. He clowned the Avengers and walked away like it was nothing. He brought Starks company with a phone call. Beat the Devil and so on… Priest T’challa was basically his verions of Batman. To the day it’s still the most critically acclaimed run for this character. That’s why they didn’t like it…

Sadly, G. Johns left the Avengers and Priest run on BP was cancelled. Marvel messed up by changing BP to Kasper Cole.

I will have to side with K.I.P on this one. I don’t want noble-doormat T’challa, I want flawed-bad ass T’challa.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 10:45:22 am
All the above did was to make B.P.'s joining of the Avengers more "logical" in retrospect.

Not saying Priest's twist on the circumstances made the Panther's joining the Avengers logical or illogical, but I would like to know what about Priest's re-working of the motivation the Panther had for joining the Avengers makes sense beyond what has already been put out there, i.e. T'Challa's desire to keep his enemies close and his friends closer lest those friends become super-powered threats to his Wakanda.

Rabid anti-MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY types decry the lack of a proper "build-up" over time in the romantic relationship of T'Challa and Ororo. They claim this lack of backstory evidence of a growing affection between the two characters makes the MARRIAGE nothing but a sham, "forced", "rushed" attempt to link a popular character to a less popular character, the fact the characters were of different genders and both were black being the ultimate reason for this "farce".

In Avengers #51, Cap contacts the Avengers after having left the team in ish #47. Cap tells Hawkeye, Goliath, and Wasp that he is on an island near Africa with a special friend of his adding that with their permission, that HE...that CAP suggested he join the Avengers as his replacement. He introduces his special friend as T'Challa, the Black Panther. The three Avengers reply, "If you vouch for him, Cap...he's as good as in." Positioned near Cap, T'Challa muses, "I'm known by so few outside my native land. Who could blame them if they refuse..?" I suppose supporters of Priest's twist might view these musings as T'Challa silently wondering how his then-future plans to spy on the Avengers could come to fruition if at that time, the 3 Avengers had replied, "You want us to accept some joe we've never seen, never heard of...just on your say so? No wonder you've got tiny wings on your cowl, you wingNUT. Hell no. We don't just accept any bozo off the street."

In Avengers #52, T'Challa joins the Avengers and is proud to do so. T'Challa did leave the Avengers for brief periods to return to Wakanda and his regal duties there, but he always returned to the Avengers. As with other Avengers, T'Challa often questioned if being an Avenger was right for him. During his early romance with Monica Lynne, T'Challa often seemed stung by her suggestion that the Black Panther's status with the "high and mighty Avengers" made him aloof to and separated from "his people". Monica wasn't referring to the Wakandans. She was referring to black Americans. However, in issue #112 following another battle with the Lion God, T'Challa seemingly renews the vow made to the Avengers way back in ish #52: " I cannot limit myself solely to my African Kingdom. If I am to fight evil, I must be able to fight it on any part of the globe! That is why--the Black Panther will remain an Avenger." And T'Challa remained an Avenger up to and through the time when the Avengers fought the Defenders and was present in Avengers #177 when the entire team was killed by Korvac.

Not once during that entire time was it even intimated that the Panther was an Avenger for the purposes of spying on them. Besides, how would the death of their King in the service of a foreign superhero organization possibly be of any benefit to Wakanda? There were real opportunities where T'Challa could have been killed, the Avengers' battle alongside Captain Marvel against Thanos being one and again, T'Challa did actually die in the battle against Korvac. Does taking such a risk seem like something a master strategist and devoted king to his nation would do?

When the MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY naysayers start with their lack of proper build-up of a relationship nonsense, I'd respond that all build-ups aren't helpful or necessary. Who wants a build up of wax in their ears or a build up of fungus under their toe nails? The build up of the relationship between Ororo and Forge would have yielded a similarly nasty and repugnant result. Forge and Wolverine are both woefully inadequate when it comes to husband or even lover material for Ororo. T'Challa fits that bill..."perfectly". Conversely, I'm having a hard time seeing the sense of retroactively making T'Challa's Avengers service into one long spy mission. However, Priest wrote it such and it is what it is. I tend to think that spying on the Avengers does make the Black Panther an even darker, mysterious, and potentially menacing character. I believe the admission should have had the effect of tarnishing his so-called perfect and noble image and that he is an anti-hero in that respect.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 28, 2010, 11:11:20 am
All the above did was to make B.P.'s joining of the Avengers more "logical" in retrospect.

Not saying Priest's twist on the circumstances made the Panther's joining the Avengers logical or illogical, but I would like to know what about Priest's re-working of the motivation the Panther had for joining the Avengers makes sense beyond what has already been put out there, i.e. T'Challa's desire to keep his enemies close and his friends closer lest those friends become super-powered threats to his Wakanda.

Rabid anti-MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY types decry the lack of a proper "build-up" over time in the romantic relationship of T'Challa and Ororo. They claim this lack of backstory evidence of a growing affection between the two characters makes the MARRIAGE nothing but a sham, "forced", "rushed" attempt to link a popular character to a less popular character, the fact the characters were of different genders and both were black being the ultimate reason for this "farce".

In Avengers #51, Cap contacts the Avengers after having left the team in ish #47. Cap tells Hawkeye, Goliath, and Wasp that he is on an island near Africa with a special friend of his adding that with their permission, that HE...that CAP suggested he join the Avengers as his replacement. He introduces his special friend as T'Challa, the Black Panther. The three Avengers reply, "If you vouch for him, Cap...he's as good as in." Positioned near Cap, T'Challa muses, "I'm known by so few outside my native land. Who could blame them if they refuse..?" I suppose supporters of Priest's twist might view these musings as T'Challa silently wondering how his then-future plans to spy on the Avengers could come to fruition if at that time, the 3 Avengers had replied, "You want us to accept some joe we've never seen, never heard of...just on your say so? No wonder you've got tiny wings on your cowl, you wingNUT. Hell no. We don't just accept any bozo off the street."

In Avengers #52, T'Challa joins the Avengers and is proud to do so. T'Challa did leave the Avengers for brief periods to return to Wakanda and his regal duties there, but he always returned to the Avengers. As with other Avengers, T'Challa often questioned if being an Avenger was right for him. During his early romance with Monica Lynne, T'Challa often seemed stung by her suggestion that the Black Panther's status with the "high and mighty Avengers" made him aloof to and separated from "his people". Monica wasn't referring to the Wakandans. She was referring to black Americans. However, in issue #112 following another battle with the Lion God, T'Challa seemingly renews the vow made to the Avengers way back in ish #52: " I cannot limit myself solely to my African Kingdom. If I am to fight evil, I must be able to fight it on any part of the globe! That is why--the Black Panther will remain an Avenger." And T'Challa remained an Avenger up to and through the time when the Avengers fought the Defenders and was present in Avengers #177 when the entire team was killed by Korvac.

Not once during that entire time was it even intimated that the Panther was an Avenger for the purposes of spying on them. Besides, how would the death of their King in the service of a foreign superhero organization possibly be of any benefit to Wakanda? There were real opportunities where T'Challa could have been killed, the Avengers' battle alongside Captain Marvel against Thanos being one and again, T'Challa did actually die in the battle against Korvac. Does taking such a risk seem like something a master strategist and devoted king to his nation would do?

When the MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY naysayers start with their lack of proper build-up of a relationship nonsense, I'd respond that all build-ups aren't helpful or necessary. Who wants a build up of wax in their ears or a build up of fungus under their toe nails? The build up of the relationship between Ororo and Forge would have yielded a similarly nasty and repugnant result. Forge and Wolverine are both woefully inadequate when it comes to husband or even lover material for Ororo. T'Challa fits that bill..."perfectly". Conversely, I'm having a hard time seeing the sense of retroactively making T'Challa's Avengers service into one long spy mission. However, Priest wrote it such and it is what it is. I tend to think that spying on the Avengers does make the Black Panther an even darker, mysterious, and potentially menacing character. I believe the admission should have had the effect of tarnishing his so-called perfect and noble image and that he is an anti-hero in that respect.

But it wasn't "one long spy mission" as you put it.

While Priest's T'Challa may have JOINED the Avengers to see if they were a possible threat to the realm, he STAYED because he liked it there. Prest didn't retcon out the "Luke Charles" school-teacher stuff you will notice. While some comics fans will want everything painfully spelled out for them, it shoud be fairly clear that by the time T'challa decides to take up a secret I.D. in the states he trusts the Avengers completely (if he didn't trust them he'd of stuck closer to the mansion to keep an eye on them).  

The Retcon only purpose was to give T'Challa some cred as being a guy who ALWAYS has his own agenda, at least at first.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 12:41:43 pm
But it wasn't "one long spy mission" as you put it.

While Priest's T'Challa may have JOINED the Avengers to see if they were a possible threat to the realm, he STAYED because he liked it there. Prest didn't retcon out the "Luke Charles" school-teacher stuff you will notice. While some comics fans will want everything painfully spelled out for them, it shoud be fairly clear that by the time T'challa decides to take up a secret I.D. in the states he trusts the Avengers completely (if he didn't trust them he'd of stuck closer to the mansion to keep an eye on them).  

The Retcon only purpose was to give T'Challa some cred as being a guy who ALWAYS has his own agenda, at least at first.

My knowledge of Priest's Panther run is patchy; I readily confess. As always, it's not for a book's writer but for the art that I'll buy that book. Joe Jusko was the magnet that pulled me into Priest's run. Once in, I began reading the story. I quickly developed a dislike for Everett Ross which proved insurmountable and as he was an integral character, was an ever-present obstacle to any enjoyment I might otherwise have had for the books' stories. Priest's T'Challa is the best I've seen. He was handsome and elegant. His tango with Nakia was more classy and more sensual than any of the bedroom scenes featuring Peter Parker, Matt Murdock, Tony Stark, weaselman, et al. Priest's T'Challa was capable of strolling into an apartment, decking Mephisto with one punch and ripping the heart from his chest. This same T'Challa could then be overwhelmed in a kitchen fight with Kraven the Hunter. To this day I'm not sure if T'Challa lost that fight on purpose or not.

I mention this because I am aware of only one instance when Priest's T'Challa was in the company of the Avengers and he didn't seem all that pleased to see them, nor did the Avengers seem likewise pleased to see T'Challa. For all I know, Priest's T'Challa had ulterior motives for joining the Avengers. It was the pre-Priest Black Panther who STAYED because he liked it there. The pre-Priest T'Challa didn't join the Avengers to spy on them either. Pre-Priest T'Challa seemed to be down with the Avengers' program of sacrificing personal agendas for the greater good of uniting their forces against opponents no one superhero might overcome alone.

Priest wrote what he wrote. His adjustments and retcons give some readers the impression that T'Challa emerges as "bad-assed". If this is the case, then Kip's suggestion that T'Challa's "higher calling" and sense of nobility has hurt him and that tarnishing his image might help, has been satisfied. T'Challa does not come off as noble with his admission that he joined the Avengers to spy on them and to determine if they could/would become a threat to Wakanda in the future. Has this retcon helped T'Challa? Did the retcon help T'Challa? I would have to say it has not. The Black Panther being who and what he is, his character will always encounter rough sledding where the LCB-RD is concerned.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 28, 2010, 12:59:51 pm
Priest had the right idea. Everything he did was not correct, but they were moves that pretty much shut down a lot of B.S. I had no issue with Hunter. He was irony at it’s best…and pretty much kills the notion that “wakandans are racist” he was a super-partiot and was not actually wakandan.

I agree, Seven. Priest may not have done everything correct or that which was to everyone's liking, but even I as a one-time vehement critic of his approach, have come to respect his talent and the effort he put into enhancing many aspects of the Black Panther as a character. I still believe that Priest flooded his Panther run with a veritable blizzard of white with hopes of attracting a larger segment of the LCB-RD. Hunter seemed unnecessary to me. I did enjoy his exchange with Killmonger, telling Killmonger he could kill him on his coffee break and in his sleep. But as a device to prove the Wakandans weren't racist, if that was indeed the objective, I'm not sure it was reached. IIRC, Hunter - though the son of T'Chaka - was still shunned by the general run of Wakandan citizens. That's not to say the Wakandans were racist, just that as always, Wakandans are wary of outworlders...even those who are infants when adopted by their King.

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I will have to side with K.I.P on this one. I don’t want noble-doormat T’challa, I want flawed-bad ass T’challa.

Not TOO flawed. T'Challa's flaws is the reason he is getting his "flawed bad ass" getting kicked in by Dr. Doom.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 28, 2010, 01:44:42 pm
Priest wrote what he wrote. His adjustments and retcons give some readers the impression that T'Challa emerges as "bad-assed". If this is the case, then Kip's suggestion that T'Challa's "higher calling" and sense of nobility has hurt him and that tarnishing his image might help, has been satisfied. T'Challa does not come off as noble with his admission that he joined the Avengers to spy on them and to determine if they could/would become a threat to Wakanda in the future. Has this retcon helped T'Challa? Did the retcon help T'Challa? I would have to say it has not. The Black Panther being who and what he is, his character will always encounter rough sledding where the LCB-RD is concerned.

Priest's run is a mixed bag.  It should have made BP more fitting for the modern audience.  Back in the 60s nobility was seen in leaving your homeland to protect the greater part of the world; today that would be seen as selling-out.  In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage.  Shoot, to go to the extreme, we can now accept the Super-Skrull as a hero.  And nothing's changed--he didn't see the light, we just have more open multi-cultural view and can accept that Skrull's POV is different than ours. 

But I think a few things hampered Priest's idea.

First off, Priest run while it sold well in terms of BP sales, it wasn't a big seller so not too many people got direct info on what was happening except through word of mouth.  One of the things Priest did along with the "tough guy" premise is try and make BP formidable again.  If people weren't reading BP, they didn't see that, all they heard about was the betrayal. 

And that's a second thing, betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character."  It's making someone untrustworthy.  That can work on some characters, but it's a fine line.  Batman did the same thing, but he walked the line better because a) inside the story they dealt with his betrayal.  It nearly tore the JLA apart and then they came to peace with it.  It took about a year or two to settle down.  Unless you read Priest's run, you didn't have any idea what was happening except betrayal.   b)  Batman was already a fan-favorite by the time this storyline appeared, so it was considered just part of the story.  CP was trying to re-establish BP but he didn't have the number of readers reading the story and seeing how he dealt with it.  Word of mouth is not the way this information gets passed among, correctly.

So for Black Panther, all that got passed along is--betrayal.  Then you have to add into this Wakanda.  The word of mouth is the Wakandans went from being allies to, at the best, enemies.  They were no long a open people working and going to college in the Western World, they were xenophobic.  And these were the people that BP betrayed Captain America for.  Now inside the story, that might work, but the word of mouth touches more people than actual readers, it ends up emphazing the wrong thing.

If sales of BP were better or if he had a higher presense in better selling books, the "tarnishing" might have worked.  (The same with the idea that Priest tried to re-establish BP as a supreme fighter and the ultimate planner.  If not enough people read the story, so they won't buy it from word of mouth.)

(You realize how weird this thread is going?  We got on to the topic--why do writers tarnish Black heroes or Wakanda?  Now we're onto why didn't it help BP's sales when it's obvious the direction people want.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Open palm on June 28, 2010, 03:31:05 pm
Whatever happened to hope for a better world?

And BTW: how would people feel if a black Superman was like the Homelander in "The Boys"? Is that tarnished enough for you?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 29, 2010, 05:15:22 am
I don't see a problem with his reasoning in joining the Avengers. Any person with common sense could see the United States with these "powers" as a threat. What I'm trying to figure out is how does it make sense for a man to place his country on the line for the "greater good"? How is it greater good if your country is at risk? "hey we saved threat that attack the United States, but sh*t is going down back at home"
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 05:42:32 am
I don't see a problem with his reasoning in joining the Avengers. Any person with common sense could see the United States with these "powers" as a threat.

A person suffering from paranoia might see the Avengers as agents of the U.S. and as such, a threat. However, the Avengers weren't known as "The United State's Mightiest Heroes" were they? They were regarded as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". Had the Avengers constituted a threat to Wakanda at that time, what could the Black Panther have done to avert it? One highly-skilled, physically-enhanced human being against the likes of beings capable of growing to a height of 25ft, physical strength growing in proportion to his height, an Asgardian or an Olympian "god",  (take your pick, or choose both) an android capable of intangibility or increasing his atoms to immeasurable mass, etc...? Did Wakanda have contigency plans in place to deal with Galactus and the Avengers as well? The better-prepared Wakanda of today has been taken apart by the machinations of Dr. Doom and is teetering on the brink of destruction. And T'Challa's joining the Avengers to spy on them to assess if they were a potential threat to his Wakanda would have accomplished just what exactly?


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What I'm trying to figure out is how does it make sense for a man to place his country on the line for the "greater good"? How is it greater good if your country is at risk? "hey we saved threat that attack the United States, but sh*t is going down back at home"

When Thanos attacked the earth, he didn't make a beeline for Wakanda with the objective of taking them out first, if at all. Thanos was a world threat. The Lion God attacked T'Challa twice while he was an Avenger and twice, T'Challa was able to defeat the Lion God with the aid of the Avengers. In Avengers #61, the Avengers - the Black Panther, Hawkeye, the Vision, and the Black Knight - had to assist Dr. Strange in defeating the global threat of "fire and ice" posed by the fire demon Surtur, and the ice demon Ymir. While Surtur was melting Antarctica, Ymir was in Africa freezing the Wakandans into icicles. That's right, Ymir chose to attack Wakanda. So, you ask "How is it the greater good if your country is at risk?" My answer to you was provided by T'Challa's and the Vision's spirited defense of Wakanda which lead not only to Wakanda being saved, but the world as well.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 06:14:52 am
Priest's run is a mixed bag.  It should have made BP more fitting for the modern audience.  Back in the 60s nobility was seen in leaving your homeland to protect the greater part of the world; today that would be seen as selling-out.  In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage.

How should Priest's run had made Black Panther "more fitting for the modern audience" ...that audience being dominated now as it has always been by the LCB-RD? Priest threw everything white at that segment of the modern audience except perhaps, for the white kitchen sink. The LCB-RD was seemingly unimpressed. So what else might Priest have done to appeal to "the modern audience"? Priest's run had sex - the Dora Milaje Nakia and Okoye were foinne. Priest's run had action and high-level intrigue. Priest's Black Panther even had a biracial U.S. citizen operating as the Black Panther, and not just as the Black Panther, but as an anti-hero Black Panther. Kasper Kole wore a way-cool trench coat similar to what Gambit was wearing, only cooler, and Kole carried a gun, ala the Punisher. The LCB-RD remained seemingly unimpressed.

"In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage." Would "the modern, multi-cultural era" include the early '70's or so? T'Challa was standing strong for his heritage way, way, waaaay back when. In Avengers #73, T'Challa stood strong for his heritage as a BLACK MAN when he demanded the Avengers allow him to take down the Sons Of the Serpent on his own. Why? As T'Challa put it: "Those are MY PEOPLE the Serpents have been beating and killing! And I claim the right to take them ALONE!" When T'Challa said, "My people", he wasn't referring to the Wakandans. T'Challa was referring to black Americans. Later in that issue he told Monica Lynne he was her "Soul Brother". How's that for standing strong for his heritage?





Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 29, 2010, 06:32:05 am
<<Would "the modern, multi-cultural era" include the early '70's or so? T'Challa was standing strong for his heritage way, way, waaaay back when. In Avengers #73, T'Challa stood strong for his heritage as a BLACK MAN when he demanded the Avengers allow him to take down the Sons Of the Serpent on his own. Why? As T'Challa put it: "Those are MY PEOPLE the Serpents have been beating and killing! And I claim the right to take them ALONE!" When T'Challa said, "My people", he wasn't referring to the Wakandans. T'Challa was referring to black Americans. Later in that issue he told Monica Lynne he was her "Soul Brother". How's that for standing strong for his heritage?>>

I wasn't clear, I mean putting heritage above the "greater" need.  I don't mean, being proud or acting from your hertiage. 

That is, in the 60s and 70s he saw serving the world as the best way, But now he puts Wakanda above the world.  (Well, at least until the current storyline.  Now his pride seems more important than either.). Or look at this way, 60s Black Panther would have joined the Illuminati with noble goals of helping the world.  Where Priest's BP would have joined them to keep an eye on them. And Reggie's avoided it all as a bad idea.  (Though it might have helped his sales if he did join them.)

In the SoS storyline we see him joining the greater global community, "all black man are his people.". The modern day BP ignores worse tragedies in his neighbors, who are also Black men.  (Or there is subtle, utimately meaningless help)  Why? Because national heritage is more important than the global community.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 06:45:25 am
And that's a second thing, betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character."  It's making someone untrustworthy.

 ??? Come again?

"...betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character."  It's making someone untrustworthy.

When fmr President Richard Nixon resigned his Office on the heels of the Watergate Scandal, his legacy was forever tarnished by that event. People remember Nixon's diplomatic trip to China, but they remember Watergate more. The American people saw Watergate and Nixon's alleged involvement in the scandal as a betrayal. If most Americans weren't certain of Nixon's guilt or innocence, they certainly viewed him as untrustworthy. History will remember Nixon as a "less than pristine character".


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That can work on some characters, but it's a fine line.  Batman did the same thing, but he walked the line better because a) inside the story they dealt with his betrayal.  It nearly tore the JLA apart and then they came to peace with it.  It took about a year or two to settle down.  Unless you read Priest's run, you didn't have any idea what was happening except betrayal.   b)  Batman was already a fan-favorite by the time this storyline appeared, so it was considered just part of the story.  CP was trying to re-establish BP but he didn't have the number of readers reading the story and seeing how he dealt with it.  Word of mouth is not the way this information gets passed among, correctly.

T'Challa isn't Bruce Wayne. The Black Panther isn't Batman, nor should he be. The Black Panther doesn't need to be a second-rate Batman to be relevant. The Black Panther is a magnificent character in his own right and it's past time he should be regarded and respected as such.

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So for Black Panther, all that got passed along is--betrayal.
 

And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house  :D

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Then you have to add into this Wakanda.  The word of mouth is the Wakandans went from being allies to, at the best, enemies.  They were no long a open people working and going to college in the Western World, they were xenophobic.  


I can't remember a time when the Wakandans were regarded as anybody's ally. Yes, the Wakandans sent their young people to Western nations to be educated in disciplines not indigenous to Wakanda. Wakanda also sent spies all over the world. Lastly, the Wakandans as a people, have always been xenophobic.

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And these were the people that BP betrayed Captain America for.  Now inside the story, that might work, but the word of mouth touches more people than actual readers, it ends up emphazing the wrong thing.

There is nothing at all improper about T'Challa - the King of Almighty Wakanda - looking out for and serving his people. If I spied on someone or some organization to assess if they posed a threat to me or not, and I was able to do so undetected, why on earth would I later admit to that person or to that organization that I ever spied on them? For one thing, I might need to spy on that person or organization in the future. Admitting to them that I spied on them would make any future spying impossible. For another, having admitted that I spied on that person or organization, I now invite that same scrutiny to be applied to me. In basketball there is a saying, "Teams that press don't like to be pressed." Nations who spy don't like to be spied on.

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(You realize how weird this thread is going?  We got on to the topic--why do writers tarnish Black heroes or Wakanda?  Now we're onto why didn't it help BP's sales when it's obvious the direction people want.)

SOME people want to see a tarnished T'Challa. I want to see a proud, powerful, paragon of virtue T'Challa
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 07:05:19 am
I wasn't clear, I mean putting heritage above the "greater" need.  I don't mean, being proud or acting from your hertiage.

If that's the case, T'Challa did put heritage above the "greater need" in the example I gave to you. The "greater need" was to eliminate the threat posed by the Sons Of The Serpent. The most expedient course toward that end would have been a full-force attack by the Avengers. T'Challa wasn't having any of that. T'Challa put his BLACK heritage above the "greater need" by demanding the Avengers stand down and respect his right as a BLACK MAN to take down that snake pit of white racists....and one black racist lunatic...alone. Actually, the leaders of the Sons Of The Serpent (one black, one white) were out for themselves. They meant to start a race war and share the benefits of the aftermath.

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That is, in the 60s and 70s he saw serving the world as the best way, But now he puts Wakanda above the world.  (Well, at least until the current storyline.  Now his pride seems more important than either.). Or look at this way, 60s Black Panther would have joined the Illuminati with noble goals of helping the world.  Where Priest's BP would have joined them to keep an eye on them. And Reggie's avoided it all as a bad idea.  (Though it might have helped his sales if he did join them.)

T'Challa puts Wakanda above the world, but puts his friendship with the FF above Wakanda? After the Civil War, Reed and Sue needed a little "alone time" during which they asked T'Challa and Ororo to "substitute" for them as members of the FF. T'Challa could have respectfully declined, "Sorry Reed ol' boy, but can't waste my time with the FF. Wakanda comes first don't you know. If Ororo and I sub for Sue and yourself as members of the FF, we might have to do something like save the world or maybe the entire universe, and you know that as the Black Panther, I can't be bothered with saving the world or the universe. It's all about Wakanda, Reed. It's all about Wakanda."

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In the SoS storyline we see him joining the greater global community, "all black man are his people.". The modern day BP ignores worse tragedies in his neighbors, who are also Black men.  (Or there is subtle, utimately meaningless help)  Why? Because national heritage is more important than the global community.

Priest's T'Challa certainly didn't recognize any kinship between himself and black Americans. Where as Stan Lee's/Roy Thomas' Black Panther regarded black Americans as his people, Priest's Black Panther would tell Captain America that those black Americans who came to see and be recognized by Wakanda's Black Panther, that they were "his people". Typical of the Priest approach, he who introduced as much white into his run while practically divorcing T'Challa from his previous close feelings for black Americans. Who knows? Maybe this was another story device to attract a larger segment of the LCB-RD by demonstrating to them that like them, the Panther could take or leave black Americans.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 29, 2010, 07:56:11 am
<< And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house  :>>

That's my point!  Tarnishing (as I'm using the term) takes a piece of gold and ruins some of its shine, but it stays gold.  Betrayal can say,  "this aint gold, it's fool's gold". 
It got in the way of establishing him ""bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none.". Especially when most of this came word of mouth, rather than thru actual reading.

<<T'Challa puts Wakanda above the world, but puts his friendship with the FF above Wakanda? After the Civil War, Reed and Sue needed a little "alone time" during which they asked T'Challa and Ororo to "substitute" for them as members of the FF.>>

I came away with the impression that he did that with an alterior motive, one of which was to stick it to Tony because Storm wouldn't register.  (And he wanted them gone, I think.) And the other involved something that never seemed to manifest; so it may have been me reading too much into it.  But the FF seemed like (in part) a cover, possibly to figure out how the new status quo effects everyone.   

But either way, I didn't see that as putting FF above Wakanda, because there was no crisis as home at that moment and  didn't he also stay because of the bombing of his embassy?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 08:11:13 am
<< And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house  :>>

That's my point!  Tarnishing (as I'm using the term) takes a piece of gold and ruins some of its shine, but it stays gold.  Betrayal can say,  "this aint gold, it's fool's gold".  
It got in the way of establishing him ""bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none.". Especially when most of this came word of mouth, rather than thru actual reading.

The betrayal didn't damage T'Challa's fan image because aside from his core audience, there isn't that much interest in the Black Panther as a character. There is more LCB-RD interest in Hawkeye than there is in the Black Panther. The Panther would have to become a super-villian for the LCB-RD to take notice. If T'Challa were to die, there would be a relatively brief celebration among a certain segment of the LCB-RD; Storm would return to her subordinate/sexual plaything role with the X-Men until she was either impregnated, depowered, or killed off and life would go on for the MU and the LCB-RD.

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<<T'Challa puts Wakanda above the world, but puts his friendship with the FF above Wakanda? After the Civil War, Reed and Sue needed a little "alone time" during which they asked T'Challa and Ororo to "substitute" for them as members of the FF.>>

I came away with the impression that he did that with an alterior motive, one of which was to stick it to Tony because Storm wouldn't register.  (And he wanted them gone, I think.) And the other involved something that never seemed to manifest; so it may have been me reading too much into it.  But the FF seemed like (in part) a cover, possibly to figure out how the new status quo effects everyone.  

But either way, I didn't see that as putting FF above Wakanda, because there was no crisis as home at that moment and  didn't he also stay because of the bombing of his embassy?

IIRC, at the time Storm and the Black Panther were substituting for Sue and Reed with the FF, the Cannibal was on the loose and the Skrull Brother Voodoo was among one of many Skrulls laying the groundwork for their invasion of Wakanda. And now, as we Panther/Storm fans have become painfully aware, the Desturi was very likely becoming a very real and dangerous threat, possibly with Dr. Doom's help at that time. I wouldn't think the Panther and Storm's prolonged absence from Wakanda would escape Doom's notice, especially seeing as the Panther and Storm were subbing for his most hated enemies. The Wakandan Royals were away from Wakanda for a very, very long time. Regardless of why he did so, T'Challa put he and Ororo's presence in the FF at a higher priority than returning to Wakanda. The real reason for the Wakandan Royal's FF adventures was likely to keep them connected to the MU proper.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 10:09:22 am
That is, in the 60s and 70s he [T'Challa] saw serving the world as the best way, But now he puts Wakanda above the world.  (Well, at least until the current storyline.  Now his pride seems more important than either.).

I disagree with the final statement. I haven't seen a single example of T'Challa making this battle with Doom a matter of his personal pride. Throughout, it has always appeared to me that Wakanda's survival was the Black Panther's uppermost concern even if Wakanda's survival was paid for with the lives of those he loves and holds most dear. Having effectively wrested control of Wakanda away from the Desturi, T'Challa didn't turn his attention to gaining personal revenge on Doom to satisfy his wounded pride and body. T'Challa immediately recognized the extreme peril facing the entire world because of Doom's plan and has dedicated his efforts to stopping Doom at any and all cost.

T'Challa isn't gnashing his teeth because his pride has been hurt due to Doom's utter command of the battle so far. T'Challa is agonizing over the realization that Doom has and continues to anticipate his every counter move and because Doom has been able to do such with such devastating effect, Wakandan warriors are being slaughtered, his wife and his sister, as well as the lives of his closest friends could be snuffed out at any moment. If T'Challa were motivated by selfish pride, he would not cede anything whatsoever to Doom. Yet, on more than one occasion, T'Challa has acknowledged Doom's mastery of artificial intelligence, adaptive robotics, and sorcery.

T'Challa readily conceded that in order to combat Doom, he was forced to alter his usual methods of operation. He sought out his own sorceror and attempted to make his body more resistant to Doom's sorcerer's attacks. T'Challa had expected to fight Doom again in direct confrontation, not because he wanted to satisfy his personal pride, but because that's the result his mental algorithm of the battle's progress up to that point spit out at him. T'Challa miscalculated because that's how Maberry has been writing the story. I haven't seen any evidence of personal pride obscuring T'Challa's efforts.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 29, 2010, 10:12:11 am
<<IIRC, at the time Storm and the Black Panther were substituting for Sue and Reed with the FF, the Cannibal was on the loose and the Skrull Brother Voodoo was among one of many Skrulls laying the groundwork for their invasion of Wakanda. And now, as we Panther/Storm fans have become painfully aware, the Desturi was very likely becoming a very real and dangerous threat, possibly with Dr. Doom's help at that time. I wouldn't think the Panther and Storm's prolonged absence from Wakanda would escape Doom's notice, especially seeing as the Panther and Storm were subbing for his most hated enemies. The Wakandan Royals were away from Wakanda for a very, very long time. Regardless of why he did so, T'Challa put he and Ororo's presence in the FF at a higher priority than returning to Wakanda. The real reason for the Wakandan Royal's FF adventures was likely to keep them connected to the MU proper. >>

The real reason was external to the storyline.  But as far as the in-story reason, he knew nothing about all those bad things happening/about to happen in Wakanda.  The thing on his mind is a) the US just did a major change; deputizing every super-hero.  For a national leader, that requires investigation.  Plus B) his embassy was bombed.  Those in-story reasons both served Wakandan interests.  So, again, I don't see it as putting FF before Wakanda.  Mostly I see it as another example of T'challa making a wrong decision.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 10:47:44 am
<<IIRC, at the time Storm and the Black Panther were substituting for Sue and Reed with the FF, the Cannibal was on the loose and the Skrull Brother Voodoo was among one of many Skrulls laying the groundwork for their invasion of Wakanda. And now, as we Panther/Storm fans have become painfully aware, the Desturi was very likely becoming a very real and dangerous threat, possibly with Dr. Doom's help at that time. I wouldn't think the Panther and Storm's prolonged absence from Wakanda would escape Doom's notice, especially seeing as the Panther and Storm were subbing for his most hated enemies. The Wakandan Royals were away from Wakanda for a very, very long time. Regardless of why he did so, T'Challa put he and Ororo's presence in the FF at a higher priority than returning to Wakanda. The real reason for the Wakandan Royal's FF adventures was likely to keep them connected to the MU proper. >>

The real reason was external to the storyline.  But as far as the in-story reason, he knew nothing about all those bad things happening/about to happen in Wakanda.

Quite true, Kip. The reason why T'Challa knew nothing about the multiple perils facing Wakanda was because he was too busy hanging out with the FF. Had he and Ororo returned to Wakanda immediately following their side's defeat in the Civil War, they might have learned earlier of the Desturi's despicable and dastardly doings. As it happened, Storm's and the Panther's absence from Wakanda didn't seem to hurt them too badly where the Skrulls were concerned. They seemed prepared, Bast was on "it's" game and saw the Skrull imposters for what they were and Wakanda delivered a devastating defeat to the Skrull invaders.

Still, T'Challa was largely ignorant of the Desturi's doings because he was too busy putting the Silver Surfer in arm locks, tangling with one of the FF's oldest enemies Psycho-Man, zombies, dealing with the unpredictable Solomon's Frogs which had them landing on a planet of Skrulls where the Black Panther and Storm had the pleasure of meeting the Skrull lookalikes of Dr. King and Malcolm X before they finally returned to Wakanda. Even then, as soon as they return home, Storm is off to help those X-Men with something. T'Challa's extended absence from Wakanda because of the superhero Civil War and his time with the FF - both having priority over Wakanda - left him unprepared to deal with the multiple crisis brewing.

You said:
But either way, I didn't see that as putting FF above Wakanda, because there was no crisis as home at that moment and  didn't he also stay because of the bombing of his embassy?

You and T'Challa were in the same boat. Neither of you could see that indeed there was not just "a" crisis, but three.

So, again, I don't see it as putting FF before Wakanda.  Mostly I see it as another example of T'challa making a wrong decision.

You know what that wrong decision was? T'Challa's putting the Civil War and his and Ororo's substituting for Reed and Sue in the FF, putting both at higher priorities than their duties to Wakanda. T'Challa and Ororo didn't have much time to investigate the bombing of their embassy or attempting the ramifications - if any - the deputizing of super-heroes would have on Wakanda while they were in Psycho-Man's clutches, T'Challa having nightmarish illusions of Storm being devoured by the Panther God as punishment for challenging "It" after she and those other x-freaks were discovered having a sexual orgy in a sacred Wakandan glade.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 29, 2010, 10:51:27 am
A person suffering from paranoia might see the Avengers as agents of the U.S. and as such, a threat. However, the Avengers weren't known as "The United State's Mightiest Heroes" were they? They were regarded as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes". Had the Avengers constituted a threat to Wakanda at that time, what could the Black Panther have done to avert it? One highly-skilled, physically-enhanced human being against the likes of beings capable of growing to a height of 25ft, physical strength growing in proportion to his height, an Asgardian or an Olympian "god",  (take your pick, or choose both) an android capable of intangibility or increasing his atoms to immeasurable mass, etc...? Did Wakanda have contingency plans in place to deal with Galactus and the Avengers as well? The better-prepared Wakanda of today has been taken apart by the machinations of Dr. Doom and is teetering on the brink of destruction. And T'Challa's joining the Avengers to spy on them to assess if they were a potential threat to his Wakanda would have accomplished just what exactly?
That is simple. A group of superpowers that "just so happened" to live in the United States, that "just so happened" to be US citizens and "just so happened" to be HQ'd in NYC bonding together for one common goal? And that doesn't place fears or concerns in any other country out there? Are you kidding me? This team suddenly came out of nowhere and they decided to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" Who told them or allowed them to claim that title? Superpowers were in the UK, Canada, Wakanda (kind of), Atlantis, Japan and other nations so why none of these countries had a representative to be considered "earth's mightiest heroes"

Yes I know of the need to fight Loki to assist Thor, but once the dust settles why didnt they seek out for other heroes in other nations? There was no international flavor until five years of stories later.

When Thanos attacked the earth, he didn't make a beeline for Wakanda with the objective of taking them out first, if at all. Thanos was a world threat. The Lion God attacked T'Challa twice while he was an Avenger and twice, T'Challa was able to defeat the Lion God with the aid of the Avengers. In Avengers #61, the Avengers - the Black Panther, Hawkeye, the Vision, and the Black Knight - had to assist Dr. Strange in defeating the global threat of "fire and ice" posed by the fire demon Surtur, and the ice demon Ymir. While Surtur was melting Antarctica, Ymir was in Africa freezing the Wakandans into icicles. That's right, Ymir chose to attack Wakanda. So, you ask "How is it the greater good if your country is at risk?" My answer to you was provided by T'Challa's and the Vision's spirited defense of Wakanda which lead not only to Wakanda being saved, but the world as well.
Yes he is a world threat but T'challa didn't have to be an avenger to seek out assistance neither. Most likely the Avengers would have gotten in contact with all of the superpowers that weren't Avengers for their aid.  Or since they were "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" they would have showed up to his country anyway to combat this villain.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 29, 2010, 11:22:49 am
That is simple. A group of superpowers that "just so happened" to live in the United States, that "just so happened" to be US citizens and "just so happened" to be HQ'd in NYC bonding together for one common goal? And that doesn't place fears or concerns in any other country out there? Are you kidding me?

The Black Knight didn't seem too concerned about the Avengers. Granted, he wasn't a monarch either. Still, when given the opportunity, the citizen of the United Kingdom joined this group of superheroes who were not known as "The United State's Mightiest Heroes", but as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" whose expressed and public declaration for banding together was for the protection of the entire world against threats no one superhero could be expected to cope with alone. Hercules was one of the earliest Avengers. He's a U.S. citizen? That's news to me and would be news to Hercules as well. Those superheroes were all HQ'd in the U.S. in one of its' major cities. Why should the U.S. not be living in fear of those same superheroes? Afterall, it's not the streets of Wakanda, the buildings of Wakanda being destroyed in most of their battles with super-powered miscreants. Rather, it's the people of NYC being terrorized by giant people, tiny people, people in gaudy costumes and masks some endowed with fantastic powers, battling aliens, super-powered terran villians and sometimes, each other. If there was a house on fire two city blocks from mine, I'm not going to worry too much about my house catching fire. The people living in the house on fire have the problem. The super-heroes were not in Wakanda and had no designs on Wakanda. The superheroes were HQ'd in the U.S. and did most of their damage in and to the U.S. As it happened, the Avengers never had any aspiriations whatsoever of invading Wakanda or any other world nation, unless they invaded Latveria and I don't know about it.

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This team suddenly came out of nowhere and they decided to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" Who told them or allowed them to claim that title? Superpowers were in the UK, Canada, Wakanda (kind of), Atlantis, Japan and other nations so why none of these countries had a representative to be considered "earth's mightiest heroes"


"This team" decided to become "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" because there was a clear and present need for them and for their services. Would you rather the Avengers be like Superman, fighting only for "Truth, Justice, and the "American Way"? The Avengers could have said, "Okay world, we're super-powered people capable of repelling all manner of extra-terrestrial, extra-dimensional, and all other types of super-powered threats to the planet, but we've decided that we're just going to concern ourselves with protecting the U.S. and maybe Europe. The rest of you are just S.O.L." The Avengers didn't do that. They allowed an Olympian god, an Asgardian god, and a synthetic man to join their team. There's no doubt in my mind that heroes from other countries would have been welcome to join. The earth is a big place. The Avengers would have welcomed all the help they could get protecting it. When given the opportunity, they accepted a superhero from Africa with open arms only to have that African superhero be the ONE and ONLY member of the team to admit he joined the Avengers to spy on them. The Vision's first contact with the Avengers was as an enemy, but he very quickly realized that the Avengers should be his allies, not his enemies. The Vision then led the Avengers to Ultron where he assisted the Avengers in defeating him.

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Yes I know of the need to fight Loki to assist Thor, but once the dust settles why didnt they seek out for other heroes in other nations? There was no international flavor until five years of stories later.


Maybe because there weren't that many international heroes in existence at that time? Just a guess. They accepted the African Black Panther SIGHT UNSEEN because Captain America sponsored his membership. The Black Knight would add a little of that "English Tea" flavor to the Avenger's mix. The point is, when it became apparent to the Avengers that there was a world-wide resource of like-minded allies to choose from, the Avengers accepted them as members. The Black Widow - a Russian - was a member, so was the Mantis - a Vietnamese woman. Clearly, the Avengers were not interested in world conquest, only in preserving world peace and security.

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Yes he is a world threat but T'challa didn't have to be an avenger to seek out assistance neither. Most likely the Avengers would have gotten in contact with all of the superpowers that weren't Avengers for their aid.  Or since they were "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" they would have showed up to his country anyway to combat this villain.

But that's not the way it happened is it? T'Challa was an Avenger when Ymir threatened Wakanda DIRECTLY. His fellow Avenger the Vision aided the Black Panther in repelling Ymir and ultimately, saving the world. That's what the Avengers were created for, not to invade this nation, that nation, or the other nation. What would you rather have, a Black Panther who has to wait until the Avengers contact him for assistance against a world threat, or a Black Panther who is in the loop as an Avenger, in the first line of defense, not as a subordinate (at least not in the earliest issues), but as a member who was responsible for designing the Avengers' first mode of group transport and who barked out as many orders as he may have executed?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 29, 2010, 01:39:08 pm
Priest's run is a mixed bag.  It should have made BP more fitting for the modern audience.  Back in the 60s nobility was seen in leaving your homeland to protect the greater part of the world; today that would be seen as selling-out.  In the modern, multi-cultural, era, we see positives in someone standing strong for their heritage.

How should Priest's run had made Black Panther "more fitting for the modern audience" ...that audience being dominated now as it has always been by the LCB-RD? Priest threw everything white at that segment of the modern audience except perhaps, for the white kitchen sink. The LCB-RD was seemingly unimpressed. So what else might Priest have done to appeal to "the modern audience"? Priest's run had sex - the Dora Milaje Nakia and Okoye were foinne. Priest's run had action and high-level intrigue. Priest's Black Panther even had a biracial U.S. citizen operating as the Black Panther, and not just as the Black Panther, but as an anti-hero Black Panther. Kasper Kole wore a way-cool trench coat similar to what Gambit was wearing, only cooler, and Kole carried a gun, ala the Punisher. The LCB-RD remained seemingly unimpressed.

By the time Anti-Hero Kaspar Cole shows up, the Black Panther's sales were ALREADY below 19,000. Nobody was reading the damn thing by then. So who was to know there was an Anti-hero Black Panther in the cat suit?

The readers didn't just leave because Kaspar was now the Panther, either. The title tended to lose about 1000 readers a month well before Kasper ever showed up. While Preist's run was longer on Black Panther, Reg can rightly say he sold more issues of Black Panther monthly than anybody
(To be fair Doomwar is outselling Flags Of Our Fathers by about 7K now, but that is mini versus mini-Reg's run of the B.P relaunch outsold Mayberry's also).

Fans might have LOVED Kasper Cole if they had any idea that he exists. And there's no reason to think they do. The Crew (the only other book in which Cole appears) got cancelled after 6 issues.   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: 4sake on June 29, 2010, 02:47:30 pm
And that's a second thing, betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character."  It's making someone untrustworthy.

 ??? Come again?

"...betrayal isn't tarnishing someone into a "less than pristine character."  It's making someone untrustworthy.

When fmr President Richard Nixon resigned his Office on the heels of the Watergate Scandal, his legacy was forever tarnished by that event. People remember Nixon's diplomatic trip to China, but they remember Watergate more. The American people saw Watergate and Nixon's alleged involvement in the scandal as a betrayal. If most Americans weren't certain of Nixon's guilt or innocence, they certainly viewed him as untrustworthy. History will remember Nixon as a "less than pristine character".


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That can work on some characters, but it's a fine line.  Batman did the same thing, but he walked the line better because a) inside the story they dealt with his betrayal.  It nearly tore the JLA apart and then they came to peace with it.  It took about a year or two to settle down.  Unless you read Priest's run, you didn't have any idea what was happening except betrayal.   b)  Batman was already a fan-favorite by the time this storyline appeared, so it was considered just part of the story.  CP was trying to re-establish BP but he didn't have the number of readers reading the story and seeing how he dealt with it.  Word of mouth is not the way this information gets passed among, correctly.

T'Challa isn't Bruce Wayne. The Black Panther isn't Batman, nor should he be. The Black Panther doesn't need to be a second-rate Batman to be relevant. The Black Panther is a magnificent character in his own right and it's past time he should be regarded and respected as such.

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So for Black Panther, all that got passed along is--betrayal.
 

And that "betrayal" didn't do a thing toward establishing T'Challa as a "bad-ass" having an agenda all his own and answerable to none. IMAHO, the "betrayal" did little for T'Challa except for making him look like an "untrustworthy" sneak, a dishonorable spy, a Black Panther in the hen house  :D

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Then you have to add into this Wakanda.  The word of mouth is the Wakandans went from being allies to, at the best, enemies.  They were no long a open people working and going to college in the Western World, they were xenophobic.  


I can't remember a time when the Wakandans were regarded as anybody's ally. Yes, the Wakandans sent their young people to Western nations to be educated in disciplines not indigenous to Wakanda. Wakanda also sent spies all over the world. Lastly, the Wakandans as a people, have always been xenophobic.

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And these were the people that BP betrayed Captain America for.  Now inside the story, that might work, but the word of mouth touches more people than actual readers, it ends up emphazing the wrong thing.

There is nothing at all improper about T'Challa - the King of Almighty Wakanda - looking out for and serving his people. If I spied on someone or some organization to assess if they posed a threat to me or not, and I was able to do so undetected, why on earth would I later admit to that person or to that organization that I ever spied on them? For one thing, I might need to spy on that person or organization in the future. Admitting to them that I spied on them would make any future spying impossible. For another, having admitted that I spied on that person or organization, I now invite that same scrutiny to be applied to me. In basketball there is a saying, "Teams that press don't like to be pressed." Nations who spy don't like to be spied on.

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(You realize how weird this thread is going?  We got on to the topic--why do writers tarnish Black heroes or Wakanda?  Now we're onto why didn't it help BP's sales when it's obvious the direction people want.)

SOME people want to see a tarnished T'Challa. I want to see a proud, powerful, paragon of virtue T'Challa

T'Challa spy/took notes on Avengers, before Batman spy/took notes on JLA...  The story with T'Challa was written in 98/99 & Batman in 04/05/06 (I think).. So he be did it 1st in story the comic world/in story & in the real world/written 1st.. 8) Batman/the bat writers copied him (BP/CJP)/ would ne 2nd rate if anything in this case..
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 29, 2010, 03:25:54 pm
<<T'Challa spy/took notes on Avengers, before Batman spy/took notes on JLA...  The story with T'Challa was written in 98/99 & Batman in 04/05/06 (I think).. So he be did it 1st in story the comic world/in story & in the real world/written>>

Actually, the Tower of Babel was published in 2000.   But while BP came first, Mark Waid (the writer of Tower of Babel) used the idea first on Martian Manhunter in JLA; Year One, which he wrote in 97/98.  So he may have just been mining his own work.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on June 30, 2010, 05:24:26 am
By the time Anti-Hero Kaspar Cole shows up, the Black Panther's sales were ALREADY below 19,000. Nobody was reading the damn thing by then.

Yes, Vic. That's why Kaspar Cole was one of the last things listed of what Priest's run had to offer. By the time Kaspar Cole showed up I was gone. I couldn't stand it any longer.

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So who was to know there was an Anti-hero Black Panther in the cat suit?

"Who was to know...?" Who was there to care there was an anti-hero Black Panther? That would be the more appropriate question to ask. The Black Panther has always had difficulty attracting a significant number of LCB-RD fans. Many of them may believe the Panther is a cool character; but in a comment posted by one LCB-RD member which I believe is indicative of a great many LCB-RD fans it was stated that a character might be visually compelling, potentially exciting, and be featured in very well-written, provocative stories...if fans don't connect to that character, that character will never reach the highest levels of recognition and success.

Christopher Priest gave the LCB-RD what he thought they wanted, an anti-hero Black Panther who was so light complexioned, his nickname was "Kaspar" as in Casper the Ghost. Cole was practically the "white" Black Panther more than a few LCB-RD expressed an interest in seeing developed...and he even carried a gun. The LCB-RD didn't know about this anti-hero Black Panther because they had practically no interest in the heroic Black Panther. T'Challa doesn't connect with that demographic in the way Hawkeye, Moon Knight; Daredevil does. What with the LCB-RD not buying the book to begin with and a great deal of the Panther's core audience driven away by the developments taking place in the book, it's no surprise "nobody was reading the damn thing."

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The readers didn't just leave because Kaspar was now the Panther, either. The title tended to lose about 1000 readers a month well before Kasper ever showed up.


It wasn't just Cole who sent me packing. It was all I could do to keep purchasing the book knowing that when I opened it, there would be that damned Everett K Ross yammering his nonsense and being his annoying, obnoxious self. T'Challa had the patience of a saint putting up with that fool.


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Fans might have LOVED Kasper Cole if they had any idea that he exists.


That's certainly debatable. I would argue from the "LCB-RD fans would have been indifferent towards Cole" perspective.

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And there's no reason to think they do. The Crew (the only other book in which Cole appears) got cancelled after 6 issues.   

No surprise there. The LCB-RD likely had as much interest in Kasper Cole and The Crew as they did Milestone Comics. The general run of the LCB-RD will not read about characters they feel no connection to.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 30, 2010, 07:43:32 am
Just to clear things up the closest The original Avengers ever got to being an international team was in the 70 when B.P., Black Widow (who was from Russia) and later Mantis were members.

Unfortunately Black Panther, Black Widow and Mantis were never members at the same time. Black Widow quit before Mantis joined.

Besides, Mantis is now green (don't ask  ::)) and resembles an alien more than an Asian.   

We've never really SEEN a TRUE international Avengers team.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 30, 2010, 08:56:24 am
Given that the Avengers are a team with top secret clearances, access and such, having BP (let alone an international crew) is a stretch.  The Avengers are sortof a private firm that works for the US's DOD. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on June 30, 2010, 09:09:58 am
Given that the Avengers are a team with top secret clearances, access and such, having BP (let alone an international crew) is a stretch.  The Avengers are sortof a private firm that works for the US's DOD. 

In the Ninties and the Aughts (what am I supposed to call this decade anyway?) the Avengers actually were a U.N funded outfit. That ended when Bendis took over.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on June 30, 2010, 09:59:14 am
The UN funded didn't run the full time.  It ran from around 310 for few years, then dropped, then came back right before Geoff Johns (or in his first story) and ended during Dissassembled.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on June 30, 2010, 05:49:36 pm
*************SPOILERS*******************SPOILERS*****************SPOILERS*****************SPOILERS***************


DOOMWAR issue #5 begins what should have occurred at the onset of this series. Tchalla unbowed, unapologetic, appearing passionately determined to eradicate Doom by any means necessary. Maberry gets one major point for having Tchalla develop a new field of science called Shadow Physics. Through this new science Tchalla has created a contained field that allows for the simultaneous state of nonexistence and omniexistence. He calls this the Nowhere room. Now it can truly be said that Tchalla has contributed something not only major but unique to the Marvel universe. I hope Tchalla and future writers will develop this concept, for it has infinite possibilities.

Shuri is a character whom I like but is certainly not cable of carrying the mantle of the Black Panther whether in story or as a title. Storm is so perpetually under used it is cliche. Reed hasn't shown me a reason as to why he is even involved in Doomwar other than to make a phone call to Warmachine. Rhodey hands over the obligatory Stark tech which just happens to turn the tide in Shuri's favor, though I have to admit that I wouldn't mind seeing the two of them interacting more. Deadpool was a plot device that I just let be. Doom not caring about loosing resources because he is about to become the most powerful being in the worldis another cliche that should have been avoided. The Midnight Angels....we will just have to wait until the next issue to see how bad they are.

Doomwar would have worked much better if the superfluous guest stars were never introduced. This should have been Tchalla, Ororo, Shuri and Wakanda versus Doom, the Desturi, the Broker and Latveria. Like Secret Invasion Doomwar could have been more intimate and personal. Tchalla's mechanizations against Victor's mechanizations, Queen Ororo dismantling the Desturi, forever removing any doubt as to why she is queen of Wakanda and Shuri getting down and dirty with the Broker.

The art by Eaton was good as usual. I liked the in-house add for the cartoon Black Panther: Who is the Black Panther. However it is now considered a motion comic instead of an animated series. Go figure.

 

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on July 01, 2010, 05:40:35 am
Given that the Avengers are a team with top secret clearances, access and such, having BP (let alone an international crew) is a stretch.  The Avengers are sortof a private firm that works for the US's DOD. 

Well, a "stretch" it was. In fact, the Avengers stretched their priviledge beyond the international - those members being at any given time, the Black Panther, the Black Widow, the Mantis, Crystal (of the Inhumans), the Black Knight - to the other-dimensional - Hercules, Thor - to the extraterrestrial. Starfox of Titan was a full-fledged Avenger. Apparently, one of his super-powers cost him his superhero status and presumably, his Avenger's membership. Before I stopped reading Marvel's mainline characters and titles, I was aware that Henry Gyrich was attempting to enforce governmental control over the team; but that's where my knowledge and interest in the Avengers effectively ceased to exist.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on July 02, 2010, 05:24:41 am
Deadpool was a plot device that I just let be. Doom not caring about loosing resources because he is about to become the most powerful being in the worldis another cliche that should have been avoided. The Midnight Angels....we will just have to wait until the next issue to see how bad they are.

".... Shuri getting down and dirty with the Broker."

Shuri may or may not be getting "down and dirty with the Broker" in the future, but it certainly looked as if the "plot device" definitely has that goal in mind where the Midnight Angels are concerned. It may not be necessary to wait until the next issue to see just how bad the elite Dora Milaje is. They can't be all that if their lack of focus is any indication. Wakanda is at war. Their former King, their "beloved" T'Challa is having to pull out all stops to defeat Wakanda's enemy. Wakanda's former Queen Ororo, the Princess Regent and Black Panther Shuri and their Dora Milaje sisters are in vicious combat with this despicable enemy, many have died in battle. And rather than the Midnight Angels giving T'Challa their undivided attention, they are gathered around Marvel Comics' superhero hybrid answer to Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck though not as funny and not nearly as entertaining as they. And what is this? One of the Midnight Angels actually appears to be entertaining Deadfool's flirtatious foolishness....during a time of extreme peril for Wakanda?  

These are the Midnight Angels?

What happened to the infamous Wakandan "xenophobia"? This stupid outworlder no sooner sets his eyes on the Midnight Angels than he is already primed and ready to try to get into their pants. And apparently, one of the Midnight Angels seems all too eager to let him have a go at it. That Midnight Angel is set to become Deadfool's "undercover angel, midnight fantasy". Disgusting. Disgusting.

It's looking more and more as if T'Challa's victory - if indeed he will even achieve a victory at all - will not be one his fans will find satisfactory.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on July 02, 2010, 06:10:27 am
I am almost wondering if this final will be double sized. After going thru all the trouble of introducing War-Machine and Midnight Angels, you'd assume they are going to get some play next issue, esp the ladies.  But we also want to see some serious BP/Doom battling and then there is Storm.  And there is the other battle front between Shuri and the Broker.  That's a lot to include and give sufficent time to everyone.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on July 02, 2010, 06:23:48 am
On CBR Mayberry said the finale would not be double sized.

I think characters like the Midnight Angels are meant to pay off in Mayberry's upcoming Panther-related works.  He first  talked about introducing them here.

Doc Doom is tough enough to give a entire superteam trouble in a stand up fight. And this is Super Sayan Doc Doom.

The Panthers and Storm plus the F.F. and War Machine will have to take him on together to even have a chance.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: sinjection1 on July 02, 2010, 07:07:18 am
Doc Doom is tough enough to give a entire superteam trouble in a stand up fight.

Doc Doom is so tough, soooooo tough. And yet, when Doc Voodoo punched Doc Doom in the nose and told him, "Fight's over. You lost. Go home." Doc Doom picked himself up, opened himself a space temporal (whatever) portal of some sort, and carried his broke behind home.

It's not that Doom is "so tough". It's just that he's been written "so tough" especially in this instance. Maberry is writing a nearly perfect Doom who has out-performed T'Challa from the beginning. Maberry himself posted that Doom is a "monster". Who is the LCB-RD rooting for in this "fight"? Doom has humiliated and effectively emasculated T'Challa in this story and the LCB-RD is eating it up.

When Hudlin made the "mistake" of writing T'Challa the Black Panther in the way the character was intended, the LCB-RD said, "He's too perfect!" Maberry is writing a perfect, perfectly monstrous Dr. Doom and the LCB-RD couldn't be any happier.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on July 02, 2010, 07:31:55 am
Doc Doom is tough enough to give a entire superteam trouble in a stand up fight.

Doc Doom is so tough, soooooo tough. And yet, when Doc Voodoo punched Doc Doom in the nose and told him, "Fight's over. You lost. Go home." Doc Doom picked himself up, opened himself a space temporal (whatever) portal of some sort, and carried his broke behind home. It's not that Doom is "so tough". It's just that he's been written "so tough" especially in this instance. Maberry is writing a nearly perfect Doom who has out-performed T'Challa from the beginning. Maberry himself posted that Doom is a "monster". Who is the LCB-RD rooting for in this "fight"? Doom has humiliated and effectively emasculated T'Challa in this story and the LCB-RD is eating it up.

When Hudlin made the "mistake" of writing T'Challa the Black Panther in the way the character was intended, the LCB-RD said, "He's too perfect!" Maberry is writing a perfect, perfectly monstrous Dr. Doom and the LCB-RD couldn't be any happier.

You talk like all those issues of the F.F. where he takes them to the brink annihilation single-handedly didn't happen.

The F.F. sure as heck outpower Doc Voodoo. Doom's gone head to head with the freaking Avengers singlehandedly.  THEY outpower Doc Voodoo.
You could make a better case for Doom's being misrepresented in that Dr. Voodoo story than the other way around. 

   
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on July 02, 2010, 08:13:03 am
Doom's like Storm, like Thor, like Superman--he's written inconsitently.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on July 13, 2010, 08:48:30 am
Deadpool was a plot device that I just let be. Doom not caring about loosing resources because he is about to become the most powerful being in the worldis another cliche that should have been avoided. The Midnight Angels....we will just have to wait until the next issue to see how bad they are.

".... Shuri getting down and dirty with the Broker."

Shuri may or may not be getting "down and dirty with the Broker" in the future, but it certainly looked as if the "plot device" definitely has that goal in mind where the Midnight Angels are concerned. It may not be necessary to wait until the next issue to see just how bad the elite Dora Milaje is. They can't be all that if their lack of focus is any indication. Wakanda is at war. Their former King, their "beloved" T'Challa is having to pull out all stops to defeat Wakanda's enemy. Wakanda's former Queen Ororo, the Princess Regent and Black Panther Shuri and their Dora Milaje sisters are in vicious combat with this despicable enemy, many have died in battle. And rather than the Midnight Angels giving T'Challa their undivided attention, they are gathered around Marvel Comics' superhero hybrid answer to Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck though not as funny and not nearly as entertaining as they. And what is this? One of the Midnight Angels actually appears to be entertaining Deadfool's flirtatious foolishness....during a time of extreme peril for Wakanda?  

These are the Midnight Angels?

What happened to the infamous Wakandan "xenophobia"? This stupid outworlder no sooner sets his eyes on the Midnight Angels than he is already primed and ready to try to get into their pants. And apparently, one of the Midnight Angels seems all too eager to let him have a go at it. That Midnight Angel is set to become Deadfool's "undercover angel, midnight fantasy". Disgusting. Disgusting.

It's looking more and more as if T'Challa's victory - if indeed he will even achieve a victory at all - will not be one his fans will find satisfactory.

Doomwar in its entirety has been nothing more than a total character assassination on T'Challa and Wakanda.

Heads really need to recognize that that's what this eries has been all about from day one.

The introduction of Shuri started the ball of T'Challa's destruction rolling and Doomwar is the hammer that'll put the final nail in the coffin for this character.

Mark my words..  >:(
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on July 13, 2010, 10:53:36 am

Doc Doom is so tough, soooooo tough. And yet, when Doc Voodoo punched Doc Doom in the nose and told him, "Fight's over. You lost. Go home." Doc Doom picked himself up, opened himself a space temporal (whatever) portal of some sort, and carried his broke behind home.

It's not that Doom is "so tough". It's just that he's been written "so tough" especially in this instance. Maberry is writing a nearly perfect Doom who has out-performed T'Challa from the beginning. Maberry himself posted that Doom is a "monster". Who is the LCB-RD rooting for in this "fight"? Doom has humiliated and effectively emasculated T'Challa in this story and the LCB-RD is eating it up.

When Hudlin made the "mistake" of writing T'Challa the Black Panther in the way the character was intended, the LCB-RD said, "He's too perfect!" Maberry is writing a perfect, perfectly monstrous Dr. Doom and the LCB-RD couldn't be any happier.
As Kip stated there are inconsistencies. For example didn't it take spiderwoman the skrull queen with her "new powers" to defeat him in one of the mighty avengers issues?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Seven on July 13, 2010, 11:14:37 am
T'challa's great Victory!!!

(http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/content/13204storystory_full-9033121..jpg)
(http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/content/13204storystory_full-9033111..jpg)

This is getting old. How many times are we going to see this? I mean I am sick of seeing my favorite character treated like sh*t, all the time. At least During Hudlin's run we did no get that. Jason Aaron proved that fans of the character don't want to see it.

Where is T'challa's revenge? This has been so onesided that it not even funny or enjoyable. They are doing a great job pushing Panther fans futher alway.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on July 13, 2010, 02:03:10 pm
too early to determine
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on July 13, 2010, 06:15:31 pm
This is what Tchalla has been reduced to. Some generic looking "black guy" (the future look of all "black male" heroes, cue Luke Cage) in a muscle shirt with a simple military grade utility belt, seemingly defeated in front of his wife, the Dora Milaje, the Fantastic Three and Warmachine. From Black Panther to Black Guy. Reg wrote circles around Maberry when it comes to the characterizations of Black Panther.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Kimoyo on July 13, 2010, 07:19:16 pm
too early to determine

Agreed!  The preview would never show the climactic T'Challa/Doom confrontation.  After the ambush, all this build-up and what glimpses we have of T'Challa's future amongst the big boys, it doesn't make sense.  I don't believe Jon would wrap it up this way either.  I'm actually encouraged to see that T'Challa got out of the cave and confronts Doom.  I just hope we don't see the tired, T'Challa rescued by Wakandan waif, wife or fan fav forner wife candidate (Photon).  T'Challa needs to handle Doom himself!  That last shot of the preview kinda looks like that fight you had in the school yard where everyone just sat back and waited for someone to clearly emerge as the winner?  I'm hopeful.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 05, 2010, 11:02:17 am
If there was ever any doubt about Doomwar being an attempt to correct the many "mistakes" of Hudlin there aren't anymore. With the arrival of this the final issue we can conclude this with great certainty. Doomwar #6 did not disappoint. On the very first full page of art we see a bruised and battered Tchalla laying at the feet of Doom. Next not only does Tchalla have to explain himself to Shuri he is reprimanded by her. After all he has done, all he has sacrificed, this novice who has done little more than demonstrate her temerity (under Maberry's pen) has the gall to chastise one whom should command her obeisance. This is Maberry's stock and trade when it comes to Black Panther, he causes an unnatural dislike for a character I intrinsically like. Again I witness Maberry plying another facet of his trade when it comes to Ororo. His ignoring or under utilizing her is palpable. Maberry's denigration of Storm is so inexcusable he should not be allowed to ever use the character. The misdirection with all the guest appearances does not go unnoticed. The Fantastic Four especially Reed were so inconsequential they do not warrant further mentioning. Deadpool gave a slightly better showing.

Maberry's fiction is bordering close to delusional. First the nanites, then that nonsense with the Panther god, and now Doom accuses Tchalla of spilling a river of blood. A river of blood! Maberry's creative license may have to be revoked. The final pages have Tchalla eek out a minute victory while thanking Doom. Thank you for attacking my people, thank you for murdering my uncle and friends, thank you for showing us how weak we Wakandans are,  but most of all thank you for kicking my ass and crippling me. After all you have done Dr. Doom me and my's won't be pressin' any charges. Tchalla was acting like a characiture of some stereotypical slave confronted by his equally stereotypical master. I don't even get why Maberry had Doom on his knees, in front of Shuri no less, after Tchalla rendered the vibranium inert. I have to give Maberry credit however. He, like Reg before him, has created his own truly unique version of Tchalla. Inspired by the genetic wizardry of Stewie Griffin, Maberry having acquired a cell sample of Reg's Black Panther was able make a clone. This clone was inferior to the original but deadlines being what they were Maberry gave the world Bitch Tchalla.

(http://pyakule.com/ture/bitch_tchalla.jpg)
 
Doomwar was an exercise in duplicity. Maberry's premise that Tchalla was seen as "too perfect" had too many holes in it to come from some one who was supposedly a fan of the character. The climactic Black Panther vs Dr. Doom confrontation was a deception from the very beginning. It was an ambush for unsuspecting Black Panther fans hoping to witness the conclusion to what Reg had started in the Deadliest of the Species arc. Through out this entire series promises were made and not delivered on. Storm never got off. Ororo's frustrations at Maberry's cock blocking are only matched by Tchalla's outrage at Maberry making him impotent. Simply put Maberry cannot write a decent Black Panther nor a decent Storm.

What makes Doomwar so disappointing to me is that Maberry had Tchalla looking so pathetic through out the first five issues only to have him be the only one who could thwart Doom's intentions in the end. All the training, increase in strength, the protection against magic developed during the Power arc were not fully exploited. All the guest stars with the possible exception of Deadpool were superfluous. Tchalla received little to no help in developing the Nowhere Room or Shadow physics. Thus Tchalla begging for help is now seen for what it was truly meant to be. The so called "too perfect" Tchalla of Maberry's imaginings was in fact the thinly veiled inability and non-desire to see Tchalla as confident, self reliant, happily married (with a healthy sex life), king of a mega power nation. The Black Panther of the Hudlin era. The blatant attempt to remove Wakanda's unconquered status and its position as one of the richest, most technologically advanced nations was another misfire. Far as the rest of the world knows Tchalla and family were victims of a coup d' etat. Their ousters were in fact Wakandan not outsiders. As for Doom's involvement with the Desturi he used them as a distraction so he could procure the vibranium. Doom never occupied the throne. Wakanda remains unconquered. In regards to the vibranium, Tchalla as an alchemist, can always convert the vibranium back to its original state.

Storm as the damsel in distress with an occasional panel appearance of her shooting a lightening bolt was ridiculously insulting and short sighted. All of Shuri's words and deeds would have been better suited for Storm. Doomwar's principals should have been Tchalla, Ororo and Victor, it was truly their conflict from the start. Post Doomwar Tchalla and Ororo should be on adventures around the world and off planet. There should be cross overs aplenty with the Xmen. Wait isn't that what Reg did? It would make sense, however making sense is not the intent here. The distancing of Tchalla and Ororo is. All the ideas and upgrades given to Shuri should have been invested in Tchalla. Shuri should have been relegated to a developing support character, given the proper time and circumstances to fully evolve without being parasitic to Tchalla or Ororo. Through out Maberry's Power arc and Doomwar (presumably Klaws of the Panther) Shuri has leeched what should have been Tchalla's and Ororo's collectively. This is why I said this was Maberry's stock and trade. Under Maberry Shuri has become the unwitting tool of Tchalla's deconstruction. 

In conclusion I have to say I am quite pleased that Flags of Our Fathers, ran concurrent with Doomwar. It gave me a chance to contrast two very different interpretations of the Black Panther lore. Reg succeeded in 4 issues where Maberry failed to deliver in 6. Everything Doomwar tried to take from the mythos of the Black Panther were subtlety reinforced in Flags of Our Fathers with less hype and fewer guest appearances.  Flags of Our Fathers succeeded with empathy, commitment and a true understanding of who is truly the Black Panther.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on August 05, 2010, 11:38:23 am
<<I don't even get why Maberry had Doom on his knees, in front of Shuri no less, after Tchalla rendered the vibranium inert.>>

I wondered that too until I realized with his armor deactivated, he was too heavy to stand.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 07, 2010, 09:39:28 am
That maybe true Kip, however Doom being the polymath and strategist he is, would have planned for such. When Tchalla depowered his armor in the World Tour arc, Doom was still able to move.

Prior to Doomwar, with the notable exceptions being Priest's superb interpretation of Black Panther, Reg's culturally relevant Black Panther, Jason Aaron and Geof Johns, there exists evidence of a consistent almost conspiratorial declawing of the Black Panther. Too few writers have shown Tchalla the Black Panther mete out the proper justice for the offenses he, his wife, his family and country have suffered. What justice was served to the rapist Anton Pretorius, who abused Tchalla's mother for decades? What justice was served to Klaw, the man that killed Tchalla's father (keeping in mind Reg's retcon in Who is the Black Panther?)? What justice was served to Achebe for attacking the Queen mother and torturing a Dora Milaje? What justice was served to the Red Skull for invading Wakanda and killing Wakandan citizens? This final affront upon the personage of the Black Panther contains some of the most heinous of offenses to date. These includes the espionage, funding of dissidents, kidnapping both former and current queens, murder and attempted murder of former current regents, and the pilfering of natural resources. Doom has done all these things, yet Tchalla's response leaves one thinking not only has he been declawed, he has been neutered.

Tchalla engaging in retribution seems to be something that many stories shy away from. It is reminiscent of tales about Afrakans during captivity or under apartheid that stare clear of any notion of revenge or taking back what was stolen, just reconciliation and forgiveness. It  is clear in reality why an oppressor would deceive the oppressed. In a country of free speech however why in fiction is Afrakan retribution so little discussed? The answer I believe is equally lucid. One of fiction's most remarkable traits is its ability to influence reality. I recall reading how the movie The Spook Who Sat By The Door was removed from theaters very soon after its release for fear it might incite undesirable behaviors in Afrakans. The point being this movie shows Afrakans taking the responsibility needed for their liberation. It showed them pulling no punches and ends on positive note. This is an example of  Afrakan retribution in fiction. A more contemporary example is Guy Johnson's Standing at the Scratch Line.

Doomwar's first four issues could have concluded what was done in six issues, leaving the remaining two issues for the trial of Doom, the conviction of Doom and the Punishment of Doom. Doomwar could have given us an emotional and intimate war with Tchalla and Ororo engaging Victor on all fronts. The physical confrontation between  the Black Panther and Dr. Dom could have ranked with Fantastic Four #200 or Ironman #s 149 & 150. Tchalla's Shadow Physics could have trapped Doom in his own armor; then Tchalla could have  banished Doom to the Nowhere Room, believing this would be sufficient enough to imprison him. However Doom being Doom, uses the time in captivity to study Tchalla's Shadow Physics. Doom learns just enough to escape in time for his next encounter with the Fantastic Four.

Umbra of CBR had this to say.
"It was Hudlin who started this mess. It was this writer who took the title away from T'challa, killed the doras, killed wkbi and Zuri. It was this writer who totally stomped out T'challa and did not have a story that would hold, with Doom who is a *barrowed* character from the FF. That is sort of poor and sloppy writing. Hudlin did not have to do that. He could have wrote T'challa actually fighting and have him lose in a close fight. Instead he wrote one of the most lop sided scenes I have ever seen in my life. And folks are bashing Doomwar. That has me baffled. So when Mr. Maberry's bosses say hey these are the rules...guess what...those are the rules. Doom was never going to be treated like Hudlin treated T'challa! It's that simple." (#448 on CBR's DOOMWAR #6 Review/Discussion /*Spoilers)  

Did not Reg have the same bosses as Maberry? Could they have said - We want Tchalla to loose big time so we can introduce Shuri as the lead Black Panther. Why is Maberry given the benefit of the doubt when he has gone on record promising thing that he has failed to deliver on. Reg delivered on the things he said he was going to do with the Black Panther. As for Doom being treated like Tchalla. Did not Doom get his body totally destroyed when the Silver Surfer and Terrax slammed into it.

In conclusion I'll let Mr Majestic of CBR have the closing remarks.
Wakandan technological advances had been growing at a steady rate for 10,000 years straight yet according to Mr Maberry they never discovered the magical properties of Vibranium until Dr Doom came on the scene. You just have to laugh at the assinine presumption inherent in this scenario. Wakanda's unique excellence and T'Challa and Ororo's integrity as compelling characters of long standing within the MU were simply sacrificed on the altar of expediency as a blood offering to the great deity known as majority fandom who apparently can't handle the concept of an independent (albeit fictional) African nation ruled by an African king who also happens to be one of the confirmed geniuses in the MU and his Queen who is one of the most powerful mutants on the face of the MU depicted earth. As I've said previously, Doomwar is simply the ultimate deconstruction of a character and his culture for the benefit of a specific segment of readership that the author of Doomwar has actually acknowledged exists. These people never liked T'Challa in the first place or Wakanda as a concept because it didn't fit in with their bigoted real world view of Africa and the fact that Wakanda is fictional was irrelevant to them. (#475 on CBR's DOOMWAR #6 Review/Discussion /*Spoilers)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: CKW on August 09, 2010, 10:35:20 am
Ture as much as I like your insightful posts, I have to point out that Doom is a gypsy. He is (fictionally) from one of the most vilified groups in the history of Europe. At this very moment gypsies are still being segregated and in some instances culturally purged.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on August 09, 2010, 10:50:24 am
<<Wakandan technological advances had been growing at a steady rate for 10,000 years straight yet according to Mr Maberry they never discovered the magical properties of Vibranium until Dr Doom came on the scene.>>

This part might not be such a stretch.  In MU, magic is extremely varied so the magics that Wakandans used and the magics Doom used may be so different that the effects they have on vibranium might be radically different.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 09, 2010, 10:53:45 am
Ture as much as I like your insightful posts, I have to point out that Doom is a gypsy. He is (fictionally) from one of the most vilified groups in the history of Europe. At this very moment gypsies are still being segregated and in some instances culturally purged.

What relevance does this have to anything Ture said?

Most people familiar with Doom's cultural heritage know this but that hasn't stopped Doom from being recognized as the premier MU supervillain.

Ture is on point with his observations and correlations of Marvel's treatment of T'Challa as a character and the de-evolution of Wakanda at the hands of some so-called "fans" of T'Challa who have written him as a chump in Doomwar.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: CKW on August 09, 2010, 01:07:21 pm
Quote
What relevance does this have to anything Ture said?

You're too trigger happy, slow down.

Quote
Tchalla was acting like a characiture of some stereotypical slave confronted by his equally stereotypical master.


I read that and then I remembered that Doom was a gypsy.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 09, 2010, 01:20:30 pm
Quote
What relevance does this have to anything Ture said?

You're too trigger happy, slow down.

Quote
Tchalla was acting like a characiture of some stereotypical slave confronted by his equally stereotypical master.


I read that and then I remembered that Doom was a gypsy.

Sorry if I came off abrasive.

I'm just tired of people making excuses for Doom and Doomwar.

Peace.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 12, 2010, 03:46:34 am

While it maybe true CKW that the Gypsy people are vilified, they have in Doom a person of supreme self mastery and someone who is able to exact revenge to its fullest extent upon those who did him wrong. Tchalla the Black Panther is (fictionally) from one of the most besieged people on earth. Afrakans have had their some of their homelands looted, some of their religious  sites desecrated and some of their people enslaved for centuries. It would have been worth while to see the Black Panther (being the supremely self mastered man he is) exact some righteous retribution to those who wronged him.

Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that. Dr. Doom mastery of it in a couple of days…insulting.

Salustrade I feel you man.

Doomwar is part of Maberry's trifecta (Power, Doomwar and Klaws of the Panther) that will continue to dismantle the in story integrity of the Black Panther. The  deconstruction of Tchalla and Wakanda are in full effect, next comes the assault on the marriage of Black Panther and Storm. The disintegration of the marriage actually began in Worlds Apart where the writer set precedents to encourage the separation of Storm and Black Panther. Maberry has further significantly contributed to this with his first two works. During Reg's run Ororo and Tchalla were happy. They were in a good place with their marriage. There were of course some challenges to overcome which added the necessary tension. Overall they appeared in love and were sexually active. Under Reg's pen Tchalla and Ororo thought producing an heir was a high priority. Following this Storm to say the least, has not had a pleasant stay in Wakanda. The Power arc made Ororo and Tchalla strangers to each other and Doomwar made them pathetic victims each being forced to view how ineffective the other was. One can only imagine what awaits them in Klaws of the Panther.

Another possible trap about to be sprung is found in the rumor of Tchalla the Black Panther becoming The Man Without Fear, a Daredevil stand in. Collateral damage being the further deconstruction and distancing of Tchalla from the mantle of the Black Panther, Tchalla being removed from Wakanda and becoming another crime fighter in New York, and the continued dismantling of the Black Panther/Storm union. This will result in another failed attempt at making the Black Panther palatable to the LCB.

I hypothesize that the Black Panther is not popular with the LCB for two reasons. The first is that the Black Panther has been inconsistent in development. From Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Roy Thomas and Don McGregor to Priest, Hudlin and Maberry there has yet to be a tangible congruency. It maybe difficult for the LCB to have an affinity with a character whose core essence is so mutable. The Black Panther's mannerisms and style shift from confident and controlled to passive and congenial, from manipulative and calculative to contrite and broken. All this may make him difficult to grasp. The LCB may look at him as being given certain tributaries that he hasn't earned. He is one the eight smartest men on the planet but he hasn't had the consistent track record of comparable  scientific breakthroughs and technological developments that are on par with Richards, Stark or Doom. The Black Panther is considered one of the world's greatest combatants, yet is rarely seen accomplishing the physical feats of Captain America, Wolverine or Daredevil. Tchalla should at least be mention worthy (in the company of Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo) when it comes to magic and sorcery. The mystical component that should be inherent in the Black Panther has all but been ignored until recently. The LCB may have been more supportive of the marriage if they witnessed more adventures with the Xmen, that put Tchalla and Ororo in romantic and sexual situations culminating in an conflict with both Forge and Logan.

The second reason I hypothesize is that the LCB which is mostly Caucasians does not find it necessary to identify with Afrakan superheroes. They have not been conditioned to accept in others what they cannot find in themselves. Caucasians will not see an Afrakan characters as superior or relatable when there are white characters to do so with. They create their A list and discern who should qualify for it. I don't see them as racist or morally wrong for doing such. They are in fact correct.  The confusion occurs when their actions (as defined by them) are considered universal when in fact they are just Eurocentric.

Afrakan people have been the Black Panther's staunchest supporters. Our requirements differ from those of the LCB in regards to why the Black Panther is so popular with us. We read between the lines and what is off panel to fill in what years of inconsistent publishing have left out. This is essential, because all Marvel's so called top tier characters have been given structurally sound core character development since their inception, compounded with decades of consistent character evolution. So even when experimentation with a character goes awry the foundational attributes of the character draw it back to its center. It is centering on the core essence of the Black Panther that is required not deconstruction. Priest, Reg and McDuffy because of who they are, infused into the Black Panther some of the core cultural values and sensibilities that distinguish us from the LCB. This is why the Black Panther is an A list character, it is our list.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 12, 2010, 12:03:22 pm

While it maybe true CKW that the Gypsy people are vilified, they have in Doom a person of supreme self mastery and someone who is able to exact revenge to its fullest extent upon those who did him wrong. Tchalla the Black Panther is (fictionally) from one of the most besieged people on earth. Afrakans have had their some of their homelands looted, some of their religious  sites desecrated and some of their people enslaved for centuries. It would have been worth while to see the Black Panther (being the supremely self mastered man he is) exact some righteous retribution to those who wronged him.

Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that. Dr. Doom mastery of it in a couple of days…insulting.

Salustrade I feel you man.

Doomwar is part of Maberry's trifecta (Power, Doomwar and Klaws of the Panther) that will continue to dismantle the in story integrity of the Black Panther. The  deconstruction of Tchalla and Wakanda are in full effect, next comes the assault on the marriage of Black Panther and Storm. The disintegration of the marriage actually began in Worlds Apart where the writer set precedents to encourage the separation of Storm and Black Panther. Maberry has further significantly contributed to this with his first two works. During Reg's run Ororo and Tchalla were happy. They were in a good place with their marriage. There were of course some challenges to overcome which added the necessary tension. Overall they appeared in love and were sexually active. Under Reg's pen Tchalla and Ororo thought producing an heir was a high priority. Following this Storm to say the least, has not had a pleasant stay in Wakanda. The Power arc made Ororo and Tchalla strangers to each other and Doomwar made them pathetic victims each being forced to view how ineffective the other was. One can only imagine what awaits them in Klaws of the Panther.

Another possible trap about to be sprung is found in the rumor of Tchalla the Black Panther becoming The Man Without Fear, a Daredevil stand in. Collateral damage being the further deconstruction and distancing of Tchalla from the mantle of the Black Panther, Tchalla being removed from Wakanda and becoming another crime fighter in New York, and the continued dismantling of the Black Panther/Storm union. This will result in another failed attempt at making the Black Panther palatable to the LCB.

I hypothesize that the Black Panther is not popular with the LCB for two reasons. The first is that the Black Panther has been inconsistent in development. From Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Roy Thomas and Don McGregor to Priest, Hudlin and Maberry there has yet to be a tangible congruency. It maybe difficult for the LCB to have an affinity with a character whose core essence is so mutable. The Black Panther's mannerisms and style shift from confident and controlled to passive and congenial, from manipulative and calculative to contrite and broken. All this may make him difficult to grasp. The LCB may look at him as being given certain tributaries that he hasn't earned. He is one the eight smartest men on the planet but he hasn't had the consistent track record of comparable  scientific breakthroughs and technological developments that are on par with Richards, Stark or Doom. The Black Panther is considered one of the world's greatest combatants, yet is rarely seen accomplishing the physical feats of Captain America, Wolverine or Daredevil. Tchalla should at least be mention worthy (in the company of Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo) when it comes to magic and sorcery. The mystical component that should be inherent in the Black Panther has all but been ignored until recently. The LCB may have been more supportive of the marriage if they witnessed more adventures with the Xmen, that put Tchalla and Ororo in romantic and sexual situations culminating in an conflict with both Forge and Logan.

The second reason I hypothesize is that the LCB which is mostly Caucasians does not find it necessary to identify with Afrakan superheroes. They have not been conditioned to accept in others what they cannot find in themselves. Caucasians will not see an Afrakan characters as superior or relatable when there are white characters to do so with. They create their A list and discern who should qualify for it. I don't see them as racist or morally wrong for doing such. They are in fact correct.  The confusion occurs when their actions (as defined by them) are considered universal when in fact they are just Eurocentric.

Afrakan people have been the Black Panther's staunchest supporters. Our requirements differ from those of the LCB in regards to why the Black Panther is so popular with us. We read between the lines and what is off panel to fill in what years of inconsistent publishing have left out. This is essential, because all Marvel's so called top tier characters have been given structurally sound core character development since their inception, compounded with decades of consistent character evolution. So even when experimentation with a character goes awry the foundational attributes of the character draw it back to its center. It is centering on the core essence of the Black Panther that is required not deconstruction. Priest, Reg and McDuffy because of who they are, infused into the Black Panther some of the core cultural values and sensibilities that distinguish us from the LCB. This is why the Black Panther is an A list character, it is our list.

Ture, your post more or less sums up how I feel about Doomwar in its entirety.

Thanks for keeping it real and really breaking stuff down for folks.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 13, 2010, 01:16:08 am
You are more than welcome Salustrade, and thank you.



Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on August 13, 2010, 05:22:13 am
<<Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that.>>

Why?  1st, we have seen that T'challa and who knows how many previous BP's surpressed some fields of magic.  B) to be masters of all vibrabium magic means they would have to know every kinds of magic.  It is very clear in the MU, magic is very varied.  Maybe this only works when combined with Dark Elf Norse Magic which the PG would not tolerate in his lands.  Magic is too "wild" in the MU to assume that they should have known. C) Wakandans weren't warmongers so either they never even to purse this or they could have discovered in 9000 yrs ago then promptly erased all records of it and forbade that type of research.  D) this is standard storytelling--the outsider sees something the long term experts missed.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 13, 2010, 02:11:39 pm
You are more than welcome Salustrade, and thank you.





Not a problem my bro.  8)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Mastrmynd on August 13, 2010, 02:53:10 pm
Bravo Ture. Bravo.
that was a great post.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 13, 2010, 03:55:33 pm
Kip, I don't think the suppression of magic is organic to the core values of the Black Panther or to Wakanda. Traditional Afrakan spiritual practices have involved what maybe termed as magic or more accurately spiritual science. The instances of suppressing Traditional Afrakan spiritual practices occurred when European and Arab invaders forced their respective religions on the Afrakan. This did not occur in Wakanda.

I said that Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Thus they are not required to know every kind of magic. Like earth's former sorcerer supreme Dr. Strange may not know Asguardian magics or the magics of a Babalawo of Ifa.

If in ten thousand years the Wakandans, who for the most part are the sole possessors of vibranium, do not have a mastery of its magical properties then how would it make sense that Doom would in a significantly shorter period of time? What you assert in section C Kip is feasible and if mentioned in story would have given more credibility to Doom's mastery of vibranium based magic. There would also be a need to explain in story the lack of practitioners in Wakanda.

On your last point Kip if any one is cable of seeing what others miss it would be Doom.


Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 13, 2010, 04:04:56 pm
Thank you Mastrmynd. Always a pleasure to hear from you.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 13, 2010, 05:45:51 pm
<<Kip the problem with that elephant in the room is that despite your assertion Wakandan sorcerers should be the pinnacle when it comes to all things based on vibranium magic. Ten thousands years should at the very least grant them that.>>

Why?  1st, we have seen that T'challa and who knows how many previous BP's surpressed some fields of magic.  B) to be masters of all vibrabium magic means they would have to know every kinds of magic.  It is very clear in the MU, magic is very varied.  Maybe this only works when combined with Dark Elf Norse Magic which the PG would not tolerate in his lands.  Magic is too "wild" in the MU to assume that they should have known. C) Wakandans weren't warmongers so either they never even to purse this or they could have discovered in 9000 yrs ago then promptly erased all records of it and forbade that type of research.  D) this is standard storytelling--the outsider sees something the long term experts missed.

Why not?

Dr Strange maybe the Master of Mystic arts but what does he know about Vodoun?

Why should the Wakandan Sorcerers need to be masters of (or have knowledge) all other forms of existing magic within the MU?

Did Doom have to have knowledge of all forms of magic before plundering and using the Vibranium to enhance his mystic abilities?

The answer as you very well know is a resounding NO!

Doom did not have to show any prior evidence of having any such knowledge because he's Doom, the uber-dude that can do virtually anything fawning fanboys an creators portray him doing?

It's really odd seeing some people virtually falling over themselves to justify the unjustifiable and make sense out've the nonsensical where Doom and Doomwar are concerned.

Prior to Doomwar were there any other references to "Vibranium Particles" permeating the lenght and breadth of the planet? But in the series finale we find Maberry raising the bar of outrageous ridiculousness(sp) to give Doom every single sort've edge (hitherto) unavailable over T'Challa in a rushed manner that said more about the hodge-podge execution of a weak story based upon an exceedingly false premise that assumed T'Challa's supposed "perfectness" warranted another round of gleeful deconstruction.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 17, 2010, 02:27:57 am
My apologies for taking so long to post. There is no evidence of vibranium particles to my knowledge prior to Doomwar, Salustrade.

Maberry has contributed two potentially interesting concepts. Tchalla independently discovering Shadow Physics and his creating the Nowhere Room. These are excellent additions to Panther lore. The question is will they get any use. The Techno Jungle and N'yami battle cruisers continue to be ignored. I think any writer of the Black Panther should give the characters breathing room. By that I mean challenging adventures based upon canon and a clear understanding of who the characters are in relation to one another. For example...

The idea of the Black Panther vs Dr. Doom I believe would work better if it were a cold war, more indirect. Two genius monarchs of two very powerful nations engage in a political game of one-up menship where the consequences have global and trans dimensional affects. The Black Panther and Dr. Doom physically confronting each other should occur rarely and when they do be the climax of of a major story arc. The success or failure would lie in the purpose of what brought them to a conflict and the skillful execution of their interactions.  The success or failure would also be determined by how well the writer understands the underlying motivations of both characters. In future Black Panther vs Dr. Doom episodes I hope this will be the case.

The comparison of Tchalla and Shuri I believe would work better if there were clearer distinctions between them. These distinction would not however be at Tchalla's expense. I cite the following: Tchalla would wear the habit as created during Priest's run. This habit would include the light armor Reg introduced as well. Shuri would wear the armor first introduced in the Power arc as her permanent costume. Shuri would pride herself on being better prepared and more on the cutting edge.  For all her bravado, she and her team cannot figure out how Tchalla's costume morphs or shifts to armor mode. The techno jungle would be Tchalla base of operation away from state affairs. Shuri would use the Caves of Bast which were designed and built by Tchalla with her in mind.  Shuri of course would have made some modifications to suit her needs but is endlessly impressed with her brother's genius. Tchalla would have the Hatut Zeraze and the Dora Milaje while Shuri had the Mid Night Angels and her P.R.I.D.E. Basically Shuri is trying to mirror Tchalla and every step along the way she finds it more difficult to keep up. Tchalla is king and the Black Panther period. His primary duties keep him in Wakanda while Shuri now known as Panthera (I know, I know but it's after 4:00 AM) is put in charge of the Wakandan Design Group. She being a free spirit and not wanting to be in Tchalla's shadow travels around the world as WDG's CEO, doing business and insuring Wakanda's proprietary technology and intellectual property. This to me is a win/win situation.

Tchalla and Ororo. Reg had the best concept for them during the World Tour arc. Arguably the most powerful couple in the superhero community the King and Queen of Wakanda should be seen handling the state affairs and interacting with the Xmen on a regular basis. Forget the Avengers (the cartoon is a separate matter). Ignore The Man Without Fear nonsense. The Black Panther needs to be with the Xmen simply by virtue of who his wife is. The conflicts arising from Tchalla not fully trusting the Xmen and them not really welcoming him for much the same reason. With Ororo caught in the middle, Emma Frost does her best to create a rift between Tchalla and Storm. This would provide excellent fodder. The Black Panther vs the Xmen slowly brews as tensions between Scott and Tchalla reach a crisis point when the death of a young mutant on Wakandan soil pushes the Xmen to the brink when the Black Panther won't let them investigate for some unknown reason that only he and Storm know. The inevitable fisticuffs ensues. Manipulating situations and circumstances from behind the scenes is Mr. Sinister. Ororo demonstrates her wisdom as she shows each of them they have a lot more in common than they know. Another situation erupts when the Black Panther and Storm who are visiting Egypt celebrating their anniversary when they come across an ancient artifact that the Panther spirit wants them to protect from Apocalypse. A foe that is most certainly up to the challenge of Marvels newest power couple. Meanwhile back in Wakanda, the newly resurrected Killmonger, is informed that his usurpation of Tchalla's throne has failed because in his absence an inexperienced yet ambitious would be conquerer has lead the Desturi to defeat. Killmonger learns that his organization the Desturi fell into the hands of Doom after his death. The remnants of the Desturi follow Killmonger to Canaan where Eric teams up with Mosses Magnum for another attempt at taking over Wakadan. Black Panther/Xmen another win/win.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 17, 2010, 05:31:16 am
My apologies for taking so long to post. There is no evidence of vibranium particles to my knowledge prior to Doomwar, Salustrade.

Maberry has contributed two potentially interesting concepts. Tchalla independently discovering Shadow Physics and his creating the Nowhere Room. These are excellent additions to Panther lore. The question is will they get any use. The Techno Jungle and N'yami battle cruisers continue to be ignored. I think any writer of the Black Panther should give the characters breathing room. By that I mean challenging adventures based upon canon and a clear understanding of who the characters are in relation to one another. For example...

The idea of the Black Panther vs Dr. Doom I believe would work better if it were a cold war, more indirect. Two genius monarchs of two very powerful nations engage in a political game of one-up menship where the consequences have global and trans dimensional affects. The Black Panther and Dr. Doom physically confronting each other should occur rarely and when they do be the climax of of a major story arc. The success or failure would lie in the purpose of what brought them to a conflict and the skillful execution of their interactions.  The success or failure would also be determined by how well the writer understands the underlying motivations of both characters. In future Black Panther vs Dr. Doom episodes I hope this will be the case.

The comparison of Tchalla and Shuri I believe would work better if there were clearer distinctions between them. These distinction would not however be at Tchalla's expense. I cite the following: Tchalla would wear the habit as created during Priest's run. This habit would include the light armor Reg introduced as well. Shuri would wear the armor first introduced in the Power arc as her permanent costume. Shuri would pride herself on being better prepared and more on the cutting edge.  For all her bravado, she and her team cannot figure out how Tchalla's costume morphs or shifts to armor mode. The techno jungle would be Tchalla base of operation away from state affairs. Shuri would use the Caves of Bast which were designed and built by Tchalla with her in mind.  Shuri of course would have made some modifications to suit her needs but is endlessly impressed with her brother's genius. Tchalla would have the Hatut Zeraze and the Dora Milaje while Shuri had the Mid Night Angels and her P.R.I.D.E. Basically Shuri is trying to mirror Tchalla and every step along the way she finds it more difficult to keep up. Tchalla is king and the Black Panther period. His primary duties keep him in Wakanda while Shuri now known as Panthera (I know, I know but it's after 4:00 AM) is put in charge of the Wakandan Design Group. She being a free spirit and not wanting to be in Tchalla's shadow travels around the world as WDG's CEO, doing business and insuring Wakanda's proprietary technology and intellectual property. This to me is a win/win situation.

Tchalla and Ororo. Reg had the best concept for them during the World Tour arc. Arguably the most powerful couple in the superhero community the King and Queen of Wakanda should be seen handling the state affairs and interacting with the Xmen on a regular basis. Forget the Avengers (the cartoon is a separate matter). Ignore The Man Without Fear nonsense. The Black Panther needs to be with the Xmen simply by virtue of who his wife is. The conflicts arising from Tchalla not fully trusting the Xmen and them not really welcoming him for much the same reason. With Ororo caught in the middle, Emma Frost does her best to create a rift between Tchalla and Storm. This would provide excellent fodder. The Black Panther vs the Xmen slowly brews as tensions between Scott and Tchalla reach a crisis point when the death of a young mutant on Wakandan soil pushes the Xmen to the brink when the Black Panther won't let them investigate for some unknown reason that only he and Storm know. The inevitable fisticuffs ensues. Manipulating situations and circumstances from behind the scenes is Mr. Sinister. Ororo demonstrates her wisdom as she shows each of them they have a lot more in common than they know. Another situation erupts when the Black Panther and Storm who are visiting Egypt celebrating their anniversary when they come across an ancient artifact that the Panther spirit wants them to protect from Apocalypse. A foe that is most certainly up to the challenge of Marvels newest power couple. Meanwhile back in Wakanda, the newly resurrected Killmonger, is informed that his usurpation of Tchalla's throne has failed because in his absence an inexperienced yet ambitious would be conquerer has lead the Desturi to defeat. Killmonger learns that his organization the Desturi fell into the hands of Doom after his death. The remnants of the Desturi follow Killmonger to Canaan where Eric teams up with Mosses Magnum for another attempt at taking over Wakadan. Black Panther/Xmen another win/win.

Brother Ture,

Do you write professionally?

I only ask because your story ideas are indeed astounding and really make more sense than the rubbish Marvel have put out recently.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 17, 2010, 10:17:01 pm
Thank you once again Salustrade, I appreciate what you said. I am glad to see that over at CBR you are getting some much deserved vindication.

I do not write professionally but I have a strong affinity for the Black Panther that goes back many years. My very first Black Panther comic was Jungle Action #13, The God Killer written by Don McGregor. Back in the day I would buy comics from our neighborhood candy store where they came three in a bag without covers. So the first thing I saw was this man leaping, his costume in tatters which was a good thing because it made him look cooler in that snowy environment. His brown flesh peaking out through the tears in his uniform gave me a sense of instant and total identification. The artwork enveloped me and I was immediately immersed into this world of the Black Panther. The colors gave depth and sound to Tchalla's desolate trek across the Wakandan artic. The graphic detail of Tchalla gutting a slain wolf, his gouging out the eyes of a white gorilla, and then that same white gorilla's death by impalement were indelibly etched on the canvas of my young mind.

The writing was beyond my scope at the time. When I reread this story in my teen years I was awe struck. The prose were lyrical and read as if they were taken from some piece of literature. "It is a night when a man can reach and believe he can touch the stars--that he is a part of the cosmological scheme of things. A night when a man could believe he is an integral part of the universe. Not omnipotent. Not superior. Just unique and unto himself." Poetry, sheer poetry. The comic concludes with " It would be a terrible agony for a man to meet his gods... especially gods that he never believed in! It would be Hell if that man had to slay those gods. And the question lingers: If he does succeed what does that make him?"

I was so enthralled, so entertained that no other hero hit me quite the same there after. I know some say Don McGregor is too wordy or that he de-powered Tchalla or worst yet had him getting beat down far too often... but back in the day #13 was just magical.





Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 18, 2010, 12:04:44 pm
Thank you once again Salustrade, I appreciate what you said. I am glad to see that over at CBR you are getting some much deserved vindication.

I do not write professionally but I have a strong affinity for the Black Panther that goes back many years. My very first Black Panther comic was Jungle Action #13, The God Killer written by Don McGregor. Back in the day I would buy comics from our neighborhood candy store where they came three in a bag without covers. So the first thing I saw was this man leaping, his costume in tatters which was a good thing because it made him look cooler in that snowy environment. His brown flesh peaking out through the tears in his uniform gave me a sense of instant and total identification. The artwork enveloped me and I was immediately immersed into this world of the Black Panther. The colors gave depth and sound to Tchalla's desolate trek across the Wakandan artic. The graphic detail of Tchalla gutting a slain wolf, his gouging out the eyes of a white gorilla, and then that same white gorilla's death by impalement were indelibly etched on the canvas of my young mind.

The writing was beyond my scope at the time. When I reread this story in my teen years I was awe struck. The prose were lyrical and read as if they were taken from some piece of literature. "It is a night when a man can reach and believe he can touch the stars--that he is a part of the cosmological scheme of things. A night when a man could believe he is an integral part of the universe. Not omnipotent. Not superior. Just unique and unto himself." Poetry, sheer poetry. The comic concludes with " It would be a terrible agony for a man to meet his gods... especially gods that he never believed in! It would be Hell if that man had to slay those gods. And the question lingers: If he does succeed what does that make him?"

I was so enthralled, so entertained that no other hero hit me quite the same there after. I know some say Don McGregor is too wordy or that he de-powered Tchalla or worst yet had him getting beat down far too often... but back in the day #13 was just magical.







Brother Ture,

It's obvious to me now that you truly area dedicated fan of the Black Panther and well written prose/literature as well.

Your recollection of years gone by mirrors my own to such a degree that I was overwhelmed with nostalgia for a time when things where much more innocent and creators were a lot more honest in their desire to really deliver solid material for an eager audience.

I was a major fan of writers such as Don McGregor and Jim Starlin back in the 1970's and really got drawn into the unique worlds that both of these gentlemen created for Marvel back in those days.

Don McGregors's Jungle Action and Killraven stories really blew my mind as a youngster alongside the cosmic madness Jim Starlin unleashed via his seminal run on Adam Warlock so I can definitely dig where you're coming from in praising Don Mcgregor's excellence.  :)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on August 18, 2010, 05:21:37 pm
Well I have heard alot of good things about starlin. So what books should I cop other than Adam Warlock? My cosmic experience is annihilation. I really loved what DnL has done with Nova in particular. They have really expanded the cosmic side. It is unfortunate that both books are in hiatus and it isnt looking good. That is basically my last books i get other than the left over subs for DD.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 19, 2010, 07:54:59 pm
Well I have heard alot of good things about starlin. So what books should I cop other than Adam Warlock? My cosmic experience is annihilation. I really loved what DnL has done with Nova in particular. They have really expanded the cosmic side. It is unfortunate that both books are in hiatus and it isnt looking good. That is basically my last books i get other than the left over subs for DD.

Jim Starlin wrote an excellent cosmic tale called the Metamorphosis Odyssey which was serialised in an anthology magazine published by Marvel back in the early eighties. He also wrote Cosmic Odyssey for DC which featured Jon Stewart, Superman, Batman and the New Gods.

I think you'll find both stories to your liking.  ;D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Catch22 on August 21, 2010, 05:25:59 pm
I agree with Salustrade.  Jim Starlin's Metamorphosis Odyssey ran in Epic Illustrated back in the day when Marvel Published magazines like Savage Sword of Conan and the Hulk Magazine.  MO also was the "birthplace" of Jim Starlin's Dreadstar...which was my favorite cosmic title in the 80's.  It was published first by Marvel through it's Epic imprint, then by First Comics, then I think he took it to Dark Horse.  It's worth taking a look at if you can find the back issues.  Vanth Dreadstar was a BAAAAD man!  ;D  As a matter of fact, most of the Marvel Magazines from the early 80s were pretty good...more mature than regular comics of the time.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 24, 2010, 08:24:31 am
I would be remiss in discussing my first Black Panther experience if I did not mention artist extraordinare Billy Graham. His artwork more so than McGregor's writing attracted me to the Black Panther. The visuals were overwhelming and kept me searching for more. I discussed Jungle Action #13 in the above post, I would like to share some more examples of Billy Graham's exceptional artistry. Jungle Action #16 gave comics one of its greatest romantic love scenes. For five pages we witness a truly beautiful intimacy. Tchalla and Monica diving under the sea while riding giant sea turtles. The silhouettes of them holding one another, the kissing, the intensity is sheer romantic bliss. Jungle Action #18 is an example of perfect Black Panther posturing. The poses Billy Graham uses are unique and organic, accentuating the lithe form that so predicates who Tchalla is. Finally I give you Jungle Action #21. The crucifixion of the Black Panther. Just witnessing Tchalla strapped to a burning cross as Klansmen watch invoked strong emotion. The scenes with Tchalla in the swamp were so vivid that you could smell the cypress and hear the cicada. Billy Graham's attention to detail (notice Tchalla's defiantly clenched fist as he tries to break his bonds on page 2, only to be released as if surrendering to the torment on page 3) lends itself to a mature rendering of an unfortunate reality rarely seen in super hero comics at that time.

In conclusion I leave you with this: Buzz Maverick wrote in Ain't It Cool News, "I know the [Jungle Action] artist, Billy Graham, was black. His cool Marvel Bullpen name was 'The Irreverent' Billy Graham. For me, even though I later learned that Jack Kirby created the Panther, Graham will always be the definitive Panther artist. His art, even more than McGregor's writing, made T'Challa one of what I call the 'grown men' of the Marvel Universe.

Hey Salustrade, what was your first Black Panther comic and experience? This question is up for all HEF posters. Reg :D.

BmoreAkuma, one of my favorite Jim Starlin works was DC Comics Presents #29 Superman and the Specter. The story title is Where No Superman Has Gone Before. A superb demonstration of the man of steel's abilities, representing the full spectrum of his awesome power. With all he has going he is still outmatched by the Specter who is a direct agent of the most high whose mission is to prevent Superman's trespass. Another Starlin favorite was Marvel Two In One Presents The Thing and Spider-man King-Sized Annual #2. The concept of personifying order and chaos, an unrequited love for death, cosmic genocide, all in a Star Wars level space opera starring the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Aunt Petunia's favorite blue eyed nephew and your friendly neighborhood wall crawler. Let's not forget Batman The Cult, the first time Batman was "broken". Last but far from least, is the classic The Death of Captain Marvel. A serious and methodic fictional tale that strikes too close to reality to be ignored.

You brought back memories with The Hulk Magazine Catch22.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Catch22 on August 24, 2010, 09:39:41 am
I fortunate enough to have brothers who bought comics before I was into the hobby.  My first experience with BP was from Avengers #62, when he first fought the Man-Ape.  Here was a black man that rescued the team from the Arctic and whisked them away on his own jet to his African kingdom.  It blew my fragile little mind! I still have that issue, btw.  The art was done by Avenger's stalwart Big John Buscema and I think it was written by Roy Thomas. 

Ture, yeah...Hulk Magazine was the truth, but some of it was out there.  Where else could you see Banner almost getting raped in the YMCA causing his transfomation into the Hulk!?  :-X
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on August 24, 2010, 10:09:57 am
I would be remiss in discussing my first Black Panther experience if I did not mention artist extraordinare Billy Graham.

Hey Salustrade, what was your first Black Panther comic and experience? This question is up for all HEF posters. Reg :D.

BmoreAkuma, one of my favorite Jim Starlin works was DC Comics Presents #29 Superman and the Specter. The story title is Where No Superman Has Gone Before. A superb demonstration of the man of steel's abilities, representing the full spectrum of his awesome power. With all he has going he is still outmatched by the Specter who is a direct agent of the most high whose mission is to prevent Superman's trespass. Another Starlin favorite was Marvel Two In One Presents The Thing and Spider-man King-Sized Annual #2. The concept of personifying order and chaos, an unrequited love for death, cosmic genocide, all in a Star Wars level space opera starring the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Aunt Petunia's favorite blue eyed nephew and your friendly neighborhood wall crawler. Let's not forget Batman The Cult, the first time Batman was "broken". Last but far from least, is the classic The Death of Captain Marvel. A serious and methodic fictional tale that strikes too close to reality to be ignored.

You brought back memories with The Hulk Magazine Catch22.

As for Billy here is a funny on his wiki

Quote
In a 2005 newspaper interview, Warren mentions tweaking a Rolling Stone reporter who asked about his decision to hire an African-American art director, a rarity in comics at the time: "'What!?' mock-screamed Warren. 'Is Billy black? I didn't know that. Get him in here! Billy, are you black? You're fired!'


As for first BP experience. It was the "controversial" one

(http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/black-panther-1998/8-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 24, 2010, 11:06:12 am
Catch22 I remember that issue and still have it. That was a good one. The Hulk was out there for its day. I just thought of the scene when Johnny Bates was raped and said one magic word. Miracleman was another comic milestone.

Oh yea it was controversial BmoreAkuma, an excellent introduction to the Black Panther. The following issue #9 was one of my all time favorites. That issue helped defined Tchalla the Black Panther from then on. Check the dialogue: Scarlet Witch- "I think what he's saying is we should trust him... Black Panther- "Your trust is irrelevant to me, and I am not asking you for anything."
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Catch22 on August 24, 2010, 11:12:38 am
Catch22 I remember that issue and still have it. That was a good one. The Hulk was out there for its day. I just thought of the scene when Johnny Bates was raped and said one magic word. Miracleman was another comic milestone.

Oh yea it was controversial BmoreAkuma, an excellent introduction to the Black Panther. The following issue #9 was one of my all time favorites. That issue helped defined Tchalla the Black Panther from then on. Check the dialogue: Scarlet Witch- "I think what he's saying is we should trust him... Black Panther- "Your trust is irrelevant to me, and I am not asking you for anything."


DANG, Ture!  Man, bringing up that old Miracleman stuff...I can almost smell the comic book store I use to frequent to buy that stuff.  :D  Miracleman was WAY ahead of its time.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on August 25, 2010, 03:35:35 pm
I would be remiss in discussing my first Black Panther experience if I did not mention artist extraordinare Billy Graham. His artwork more so than McGregor's writing attracted me to the Black Panther. The visuals were overwhelming and kept me searching for more. I discussed Jungle Action #13 in the above post, I would like to share some more examples of Billy Graham's exceptional artistry. Jungle Action #16 gave comics one of its greatest romantic love scenes. For five pages we witness a truly beautiful intimacy. Tchalla and Monica diving under the sea while riding giant sea turtles. The silhouettes of them holding one another, the kissing, the intensity is sheer romantic bliss. Jungle Action #18 is an example of perfect Black Panther posturing. The poses Billy Graham uses are unique and organic, accentuating the lithe form that so predicates who Tchalla is. Finally I give you Jungle Action #21. The crucifixion of the Black Panther. Just witnessing Tchalla strapped to a burning cross as Klansmen watch invoked strong emotion. The scenes with Tchalla in the swamp were so vivid that you could smell the cypress and hear the cicada. Billy Graham's attention to detail (notice Tchalla's defiantly clenched fist as he tries to break his bonds on page 2, only to be released as if surrendering to the torment on page 3) lends itself to a mature rendering of an unfortunate reality rarely seen in super hero comics at that time.

In conclusion I leave you with this: Buzz Maverick wrote in Ain't It Cool News, "I know the [Jungle Action] artist, Billy Graham, was black. His cool Marvel Bullpen name was 'The Irreverent' Billy Graham. For me, even though I later learned that Jack Kirby created the Panther, Graham will always be the definitive Panther artist. His art, even more than McGregor's writing, made T'Challa one of what I call the 'grown men' of the Marvel Universe.

Hey Salustrade, what was your first Black Panther comic and experience? This question is up for all HEF posters. Reg :D.

BmoreAkuma, one of my favorite Jim Starlin works was DC Comics Presents #29 Superman and the Specter. The story title is Where No Superman Has Gone Before. A superb demonstration of the man of steel's abilities, representing the full spectrum of his awesome power. With all he has going he is still outmatched by the Specter who is a direct agent of the most high whose mission is to prevent Superman's trespass. Another Starlin favorite was Marvel Two In One Presents The Thing and Spider-man King-Sized Annual #2. The concept of personifying order and chaos, an unrequited love for death, cosmic genocide, all in a Star Wars level space opera starring the Avengers, Captain Marvel, Aunt Petunia's favorite blue eyed nephew and your friendly neighborhood wall crawler. Let's not forget Batman The Cult, the first time Batman was "broken". Last but far from least, is the classic The Death of Captain Marvel. A serious and methodic fictional tale that strikes too close to reality to be ignored.

You brought back memories with The Hulk Magazine Catch22.

Hey Ture!  ;D

My first introduction to the Black Panther was the Panther's Rage written by the incomparable Don McGregor with the extraordinary art of Billy Graham.

I was a bit young at the time when those books originally came out but even back then, I could tell that there was something very different aboutthe writing.

I'm stilltrying to figure out who Mokadi was. LOL!

Back then, Marvel actually used to put out books that actually made you think.

Jim Starlin's Adam Warlock, The Master of Kung Fu, and even Steve Gerbers Howard the Duck were just mindblowing to say the least.  8)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on August 29, 2010, 02:30:19 am
It seems our introductions to the Black Panther share a common origin Salustrade. Those were the times when comics had narrations and one could read the very thoughts of a character. Without a doubt Panther's Rage written by McGregor put Tchalla through a gamut of abuse. It was the writing and artwork that gave the story so much stamina.

The rogues gallery from Panther's Rage remains full of unexplored potential. As with most villains updates and clear motivations for their actions are all that's needed. For all the criticism they received they were not that bad. It was the seventies after all ;D. Spiderman had to deal with the Vulture, Rhino and Mysterio, not to mention having difficulty with Tarantula a Hispanic with drugged tipped pointy shoes, the Jackal, Peter Parker's very mature looking college professor, the Grizzly a washed up wrestler and Kangaroo. Batman had some challenges too. There was the Penguin, the Riddler and the Calendar man to suffer under and adding insult to injury there were the Mad Hatter, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum and last but not least Crazy Quilt.

I feel you Catch22. It seems that our days back then were full of superheroes and comic books. Hey Salustrade and Catch22 in memory of Saturdays past and those after school hours when we were wishing for a Black Panther cartoon.


(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa1.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa2.jpg)
The silent era. A brief cameo with the X-Men.
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa18.png)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa10.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa9.jpg)
The Fantastic Four are The Prey Of The Black Panther.
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa3.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa11.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa5.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa6.jpg)
Rise of the Ultimate Black Panther.
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa24.png)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa27.png)
Guest starring in the armored adventures of Iron man
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa12.jpg)
Superhero Squad couple of the year.
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa19.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa20.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa21.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa22.jpg)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa23.jpg)
The only animated feature to answer the question Who is The Black Panther?
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa14.png)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa15.png)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa17.png)
(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/bpa16.png)
Panther rages on in the new Avengers cartoon.










Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on September 04, 2010, 07:30:19 pm
Hey Ture, those are some cool scans of T'Challa.

Thanks for posting them.  ;D
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Greg on September 05, 2010, 11:38:47 am
What episode was that X-Men cameo in? I don't remember that one. So that means he had two cameos, because I recall another episode where he showed up.

And I nearly don't want to reference Ultimate Avengers 2. He was a joke in that.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: JRCarter on September 05, 2010, 02:34:13 pm
What episode was that X-Men cameo in? I don't remember that one. So that means he had two cameos, because I recall another episode where he showed up.

It was a two-part episode called "Sanctuary".
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on September 22, 2010, 01:45:02 pm
Now that Doomwar is history, I wanted to address this notion that Maberry"s sales were higher than Reg's. I read that Doomwar had higher sales than Black Panther. I quote RolandJP #4705 at CBR "Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." I took the liberty of reviewing ICv2's comic index and compared the two.

Hudlin's last 5 BP issues  
BP#34- 23,395
BP#35- 21,332
BP#36- 20,841
BP#37- 19,989
BP#38- 19,459

Mayberry's last 5 BP issues
BP#8-   23,020
BP#9-   20,346
BP#10- 19,147
BP#11- 17,989
BP#12- 17,881

Hudlin's Deadliest of the Species
BP#1- 46,699
BP#2- 33,755
BP#3- 33,356
BP#4- 30,984
BP#5- 29,762
BP#6- 29,727

Mayberry's Doomwar
DW#1- 43,241
DW#2- 30,555
DW#3- 27,859
DW#4- 28,307
DW#5- 26,041
DW#6- 24,797

The numbers speak for themselves. Maberry did not out sell Reg.

I also did some thinking about Tchalla's and Ororo's interaction during the Power arc and Doomwar. It would appear that we have not seen the real Black Panther and Storm since the end of Secret Invasion.

The real Tchalla and Ororo are on a mission in deep space. It was they and a battalion of Wakandan warriors that piloted that Skrull ship from the secret invasion back to its homeworld remotely from the bridge of the T'Chaka class flagship. Accompanying them is a cloaked fleet of N'Yami battle cruisers.

They left behind clones of themselves which had the same spiritual essences as the originals. Shuri was made privy to this and later assumed the Panther mantle due to injuries the clone of Tchalla suffered.

It would appear that Tchalla has learned more than just how to take the power cosmic of the Silver Surfer from Doom. He too uses stand-ins when the story goes astray. ;)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 22, 2010, 01:53:04 pm
If Tom Bevoort is to be believed, we the public have never seen the real sales numbers, because Marvel doesn't release all their numbers to public.  (Of course, he said this to justify the apparent lose of sales after One More Day.)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on September 22, 2010, 02:39:06 pm
If Tom Bevoort is to be believed, we the public have never seen the real sales numbers, because Marvel doesn't release all their numbers to public.  (Of course, he said this to justify the apparent lose of sales after One More Day.)
Hmmm I wonder to the stockholders have access to this?
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Catch22 on September 22, 2010, 05:33:20 pm
I promise you, if I ever get to write BP*...all of this Doomwar stuff will be chalked up to one thing.  Panther-bots!  If Doom can have Doombots, all of the Panther's choke outs by Doom will be attributed to Panther-Bots or Wakandan LMDs if you will! This I Swear!!!!














*seeing that I'll never write BP, this is the emptiest of empty threats.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on September 22, 2010, 05:37:26 pm
Actually Doomwar was a dream of Miller-enhanced Dr. Doom.  All a Dream, but since that Doom is cosmic, the dream had consequences, but also since it was a dream it can be undone.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on September 24, 2010, 12:28:55 pm
Despite it all, in the end Doomwar was an exercise in futility. Wakanda was never conquered. They can't be financially ruined as they have scores of untapped resources. Not to mention the fact that it has not been stated that all their technology was vibranium based i.e. the vehicle the Black Panther sent to the FF in his first appearance, the Quinjets they manufactures for the Avengers, the undersea vehicles and their  space flight technology. Besides in Maberry's own words he said " All the Processed Wakandan vibranium. Gone. Transformed into a useless and inert form." Tchalla being the master strategist he is can more than likely reverse the process.  He'll probably do so after he and Ororo return from the Skrull  homeward and he removes his Tchallabot from Hell's Kitchen. You heard it first here at the HEF.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on September 24, 2010, 01:10:27 pm
Despite it all, in the end Doomwar was an exercise in futility. Wakanda was never conquered. They can't be financially ruined as they have scores of untapped resources. Not to mention the fact that it has not been stated that all their technology was vibranium based i.e. the vehicle the Black Panther sent to the FF in his first appearance, the Quinjets they manufactures for the Avengers, the undersea vehicles and their  space flight technology. Besides in Maberry's own words he said " All the Processed Wakandan vibranium. Gone. Transformed into a useless and inert form." Tchalla being the master strategist he is can more than likely reverse the process.  He'll probably do so after he and Ororo return from the Skrull  homeward and he removes his Tchallabot from Hell's Kitchen. You heard it first here at the HEF.

Maberry in my opinion, is the worst thing to have ever happened to the BP mythos and I really prayfor the day that all the nonsense he introduced gets reversed by a truly gifted writer with genuine affection for T'Challa, Ororo and Wakanda.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: excelsior on September 24, 2010, 05:44:46 pm
Now that Doomwar is history, I wanted to address this notion that Maberry"s sales were higher than Reg's. I read that Doomwar had higher sales than Black Panther. I quote RolandJP #4705 at CBR "Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." I took the liberty of reviewing ICv2's comic index and compared the two.

Hudlin's last 5 BP issues  
BP#34- 23,395
BP#35- 21,332
BP#36- 20,841
BP#37- 19,989
BP#38- 19,459

Mayberry's last 5 BP issues
BP#8-   23,020
BP#9-   20,346
BP#10- 19,147
BP#11- 17,989
BP#12- 17,881

Hudlin's Deadliest of the Species
BP#1- 46,699
BP#2- 33,755
BP#3- 33,356
BP#4- 30,984
BP#5- 29,762
BP#6- 29,727

Mayberry's Doomwar
DW#1- 43,241
DW#2- 30,555
DW#3- 27,859
DW#4- 28,307
DW#5- 26,041
DW#6- 24,797

The numbers speak for themselves. Maberry did not out sell Reg.

I also did some thinking about Tchalla's and Ororo's interaction during the Power arc and Doomwar. It would appear that we have not seen the real Black Panther and Storm since the end of Secret Invasion.

The real Tchalla and Ororo are on a mission in deep space. It was they and a battalion of Wakandan warriors that piloted that Skrull ship from the secret invasion back to its homeworld remotely from the bridge of the T'Chaka class flagship. Accompanying them is a cloaked fleet of N'Yami battle cruisers.

They left behind clones of themselves which had the same spiritual essences as the originals. Shuri was made privy to this and later assumed the Panther mantle due to injuries the clone of Tchalla suffered.

It would appear that Tchalla has learned more than just how to take the power cosmic of the Silver Surfer from Doom. He too uses stand-ins when the story goes astray. ;)


I was comparing Maberry's sales of Doomwar to Flags of our fathers. To douse the flames of maberry hate. Not to slam Hudlin. I bought Both books. Flags and Doomwar.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on September 24, 2010, 09:36:52 pm
I posted those sales numbers to counter the some of the comments about Maberry's Doomwar outselling Hudlin's Black Panther. This is not about hating Maberry. It's about respecting the Black Panther enough to be critical of his misrepresentation by Maberry. I was saving Flags of Our Father to compare with Klaws of the Panther, although admittedly I'm not sure how to classify Flags, other than being written by Reg. Since Cap got top billing is it to be considered a Panther book?  ;)
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on September 25, 2010, 02:20:17 am
I was comparing Maberry's sales of Doomwar to Flags of our fathers. To douse the flames of maberry hate. Not to slam Hudlin. I bought Both books. Flags and Doomwar.

What Maberry hate?

Having utter contempt and disdain for what Maberry has done with the Black Panther mythos cannot be characterized as hate.

As far as I'm concerned, it's justifiable commentary directed at an individual who's done more to damage T'Challa and Wakanda as viable concepts than anyone in recent history.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 08, 2010, 12:41:42 am
You know Salustrade, I don't think the "hate" will be abated anytime soon especially now that Klaws of the Panther is out.

Upon reading some of  posts over at CBR, I wanted to make sure that I did not miss quote RolandJP. He said  "Because there is a fan base. look at the initial launch of the Panther series under Hudlin and the second. Jason Aaron's 3 story arc. And Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." From that I extracted " Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." RolandJP never mentioned Flags of Our Fathers in that entire thread.

While I don't think RolandJP was "slamming Hudlin", I do think the Maberry outselling Hudlin is often misapplied. Commentary that lends itself to the concept that "the Black Panther can't hold a title" or that the book has poor sales, need serious evaluation. Examine the fact that some books may not have sales in the twenty thousand or even ten thousand range but are still published continuously. For example: In August, the following posted these sales figures.

Hellblazer #270 - 9,928
Simpsons #169- 7396
Savage dragon #163 - 5,447
Archie #612 - 4,530

All 4 of these titles have sales below those of the Black Panther during Reg's run. What justifies their ongoing publication if the bottom line is the bottom  line? Even such a luminary as Batman had low sales to the point that the publishers not only considered canceling the book but killing off the character. Needless to say they did neither.

Marvel gets a point for promoting and keeping the Black Panther in a series. However that does not mean they are immune to criticism for their execution of such. The increased exposure the Black Panther has received in the new millennium must be credited to Priest, Almond, Velutto, and the other artists and contributors of that series. Credit must go to Reginald Hudlin, Romita Jr.,Lashley, Portela and all those who made creative contributions to that volume. Jason Aaron, Jefte Palo for putting the Black Panther on the New York Times Bestseller's List. Reginald Hudlin must get a second meritorious mention for the animated series.

Speaking of animating the Black Panther here is a link to the micro episode of BP in the upcoming Avengers cartoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA)

The challenge for the throne needs some updating. There should intellectual, political and spiritual  requirements that precede the physical contest. Leadership for a nation as advanced as Wakanda should be based on more than who is the best pugilist. The Man Ape needs a new name (I favor Silver Back) and a new costume. Above all else the Man Ape must sound intelligent. None of the observers noticed Tchaka writhing in pain? Tchaka's senses did not alert him to the presence of Klaw? Why wasn't the contest over as Man Ape was clearly defeated? These are the questions that should not have had to be asked if the Black Panther and his country were taken more seriously. Details, God is in the details.



Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Emperorjones on October 08, 2010, 02:05:39 am
To be fair, they did give Man Ape a new name, White Gorilla. Or at least they emphasized he came from the White Gorilla tribe. I thought that was what he was also called in the Flags of our Fathers mini. I like WG better than Man Ape. I las

I also wondered why know one else sensed the presence of Klaw or heard the noise, but I assumed it was a frequency specifically for T'Chaka. I also wondered why no one didn't respond/react to T'Chaka's writhing. But I'll chalk that up to this being a cartoon, geared to kids and young adults. I don't disagree that there should be more that goes into leadership than a big fight (would like to see that handled more in the comics), and that they could upgrade WG's intelligence, but for a cartoon I think the fight works on a visceral level as does WG's brutishness. It underscores that he is a bad guy and that any likely reign under him will be brutal.

From the micro episode, I think they've handled BP better than the Ultimate Avengers cartoon. At least he's not a were-panther.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on October 08, 2010, 07:27:39 am
You know Salustrade, I don't think the "hate" will be abated anytime soon especially now that Klaws of the Panther is out.

Upon reading some of  posts over at CBR, I wanted to make sure that I did not miss quote RolandJP. He said  "Because there is a fan base. look at the initial launch of the Panther series under Hudlin and the second. Jason Aaron's 3 story arc. And Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." From that I extracted " Doomwar sales were higher than Panthers." RolandJP never mentioned Flags of Our Fathers in that entire thread.

While I don't think RolandJP was "slamming Hudlin", I do think the Maberry outselling Hudlin is often misapplied. Commentary that lends itself to the concept that "the Black Panther can't hold a title" or that the book has poor sales, need serious evaluation. Examine the fact that some books may not have sales in the twenty thousand or even ten thousand range but are still published continuously. For example: In August, the following posted these sales figures.

Hellblazer #270 - 9,928
Simpsons #169- 7396
Savage dragon #163 - 5,447
Archie #612 - 4,530

All 4 of these titles have sales below those of the Black Panther during Reg's run. What justifies their ongoing publication if the bottom line is the bottom  line?

All these books are either from smaller companies (Simpsons-Bongo Press) boutique line from bigger companies (Hellblazer) or are a product of the small press (Savage Dragon-at this point Larsen is a small press operator) in all but name.

Arichie's a special case. They make thier real dough with the digests. The individual comics are just source material for the digests.

You can't compare any of these to a Marvel Super Hero comics that's expected to at the very least 20+K a month.

If Black Panther was a D.C. character that would be another matter. They'll keep a Superhero book running even it if drops below 18K.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on October 08, 2010, 08:08:22 am
<<If Black Panther was a D.C. character that would be another matter. They'll keep a Superhero book running even it if drops below 18K.>>

I don't think you can even compare DC to Marvel, because different companies have different financial situations, goals and plans.  DC may be comfortable and secure with an 18K book, but Marvel might not be able to afford it or have shareholders that aren't willing to accept the risk. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 08, 2010, 08:32:28 am
I concur Emperorjones, the title White Gorilla is preferable to Man Ape. IRC the tribe has often been referenced by the White Gorilla. Priest gave the tribe its ancestral name Jabari. I like the concept that the nation of Wakanda has different ethnic groups as well as conflicting spiritual beliefs. I want it fleshed out more and given some maturity as well as some complexity. I believe an animated interpretation of a character can achieve this. Look at Batman the animated series, the Justice League and Reg's Black Panther the animated series.

Wakandans need to be depicted as having superior mental/intellectual faculties in comparison to the rest of the world's population. Their lifespans should also reflect this by being double if not triple that of the world's population. Their technology should be generations ahead of the worlds nations (notable exception notwithstanding). The antagonist must be capable of circumventing and compensating for these advantages followed by the protagonist's counter and eventual victory. These are some of the details that need to be brought forth in both comic and cartoon.

No further comment on what Klaw got away with. I am in agreement with you Emperorjones that the fight works on a visceral level. So far the micro episode is in proximity to the opening sequence of the Ultimate Avengers cartoon. I was taken aback by the were- panther and favor its discontinuance.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: BmoreAkuma on October 08, 2010, 05:34:24 pm
I can see what you are talking about regarding ultimate avengers but I also trust Yost. Yost is a good writer and writes Tchalla very well.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 08, 2010, 11:44:28 pm
Hey Vic, would Marvel Knights be comparable to Vertigo? If so, do you see any strategies that Marvel could adopt that would be useful in prolonging the longevity of titles like Black Panther?

Kip, I think you brought up an excellent point in trying to compare the two companies. I was attempting to instigate some discourse in hopes of isolating some of the particulars for continual publication and thus see if they would be applicable to the Black Panther.

BmoreAkuma I'm hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on October 09, 2010, 05:44:24 am
I wonder if a team book centered on BP and Storm would have more long term sucess than a solo/couple series.

But in this era of "the singer is more important than the song"-(JB) I think that unless a fan favorite is writing the book, it won't crack the fan favorites, event or fad book ceiling. (Do you really think the Avengers would be selling so well without Bendis?)

It also has to be the right fan favorite.  The "lesser" fan favorite can't always get thru the highiest n safe levels. Look at DnA; constantly praised by the fans and none of their books except their event books sold well enough to keep their books alive.  (And in my opinion Nova was a better book than half the top 20 books.). Why? DnA aren't Bendis, Johns, etc.

Right now, the only way BP can be made a safe, long term book is if Bendis started writing or through some stunt that becomes a fad.  (This is where the New DarePanther series might actually work.)

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Vic Vega on October 09, 2010, 11:20:58 am
Hey Vic, would Marvel Knights be comparable to Vertigo? If so, do you see any strategies that Marvel could adopt that would be useful in prolonging the longevity of titles like Black Panther?

Kip, I think you brought up an excellent point in trying to compare the two companies. I was attempting to instigate some discourse in hopes of isolating some of the particulars for continual publication and thus see if they would be applicable to the Black Panther.

BmoreAkuma I'm hoping for the best.

Ture, if im not mistaken,  Vertigo has smaller print runs than standard DC books and I think the creators are compensated differently too. They get less for the individual issues but more for the trades.

Such a approach could work for BP but i think the character could do better than being a niche book. All that gets you is a book that editoral leaves alone. Which might make the purists happy....

I been sayng for awhile that Marvel should try BP/Storm as a team (team books garner more interest than solo books on average) but I can see where the new direction is an attempt to place the Tchalla character from an less popular genre (political thriller) to a more popular one (crime noir).

So this is an attempt to mainstream BP.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 13, 2010, 09:58:38 am
Thank you Vic. I was unaware of those differences about Vertigo.

Kip and Vic, do you think a team centered book would have to be based outside of Wakanda? I think there is so much to explore in the many regions of the Wakandas that a team book could in fact work there. The next question is who would fill out the roster?

I think approaching the series as an anthology would be a novel idea. "The Black Panther's Wakanda". This series would feature an ensemble cast that guest writers under the guidance of a tight editorial team of say Reg, McDuffy, Priest and Aaron could use to tell a variety of stories centered around the Black Panther. It goes without saying that any of the editorial team could write should they choose to. ;D

"The Black Panther's Wakanda" could tell the tales of King Tchalla the Black Panther and Queen Ororo the Storm as they refortify the nation of Wakanda. Witness them battling top tier villains and mingle with their fellow "A Listers".
 
A globetrotting Shuri aka Panthera (females who acquire the mantle have a distinguishing title). Shuri's habit would be a high tech armor ( which further distinguishes her from Tchalla). As head of WDG she and her P.R.I.D.E. have high tech adventures that show case Wakandas brilliant technology. The inevitable clash and romance with War Machine will definitely be on the horizon.

Casper Cole aka the Ghost Panther gives us the urban grit and the man on the street view of an outsider who is on the periphery of the Wakandan society. Casper and Hunter form a bond as Casper joins the Hatut Zeraze. The 66Bridges and Casper's half brother and father are the main antagonist.

After the death of her cousin the Man Ape, QDJ and Vibraxis try to reform the clan of the White Gorilla. QDJ appoints a new religious leader named Silverback a woman who unknown to her has nothing but revenge in her heart.

Killmonger has made N'Jaka city the political base of the Desturi (which he has always had control of). Their's is an ongoing battle as they attempt to seize political control of Wakanda. Here we get to see the brilliance of Killmonger as a leader and strategist.

This series could also tell the tales of past Black Panthers thus expanding the Panther mythos in scope and dimension.

The one constant through out the entire series would be Tchalla the Black Panther. He would be ubiquitous, his presence felt on and off panel.

The team, Black Panther, Storm, Panthera, Ghost Panther, QDJ, Vibraxis and Silverback. A team as diverse as they are Panther centered.

Imagine the possibilities!!!
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: KIP LEWIS on October 13, 2010, 07:26:11 pm
Team located in Wakanda, may very well depend upon what kind of Wakanda the artist brings.  If Wakandan cities looks like every other major city in the world, it might not make a difference.  A Wakanda that looks like a cross between "Lost Kingdoms" of Tarzan and Kirby super-cities, it might look too unfamilar for long term.

I think more important is the cast and kind of adventures.

Membership can include a couple "lesser known" characters, but really if you want a BP/Storm team to suceed, you need members with major name recognition with BP and Storm.

But as important as members are, this book will only succeed if you have a major writer and a top notch artist.  You need an artist capable of handling the grander of space, high tech and other worlds.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on October 14, 2010, 11:08:18 am


Speaking of animating the Black Panther here is a link to the micro episode of BP in the upcoming Avengers cartoon.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBSKjGXr0mA[/url])





*ugh!*
The second I saw that anime/Bruce Timm styled animation, I closed the window.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 18, 2010, 06:28:50 am

I think Wakanda has to go with a futuristic look. The architecture should be exotic and reflective of a culture that developed independently and free of the outside world's influence due to its self imposed isolation. I think the trick is to have some consistency. There should be certain locales that are constantly used and referred to so the reader can visually and emotionally connect with them. For example Batman has the Batcave, Wayne manor and Crime Alley. Marvel's New York has had the Baxter Building, the Sanctum Sanctorum, Daily Bugle, Stark Industries (Stark International, Stark Enterprises etc.) and of course the new home of BP Hell's Kitchen.

With Wakanda consistently depicted the next step would require the writer to create a unique culture that is analogous to those things familiar to the reader but distinctly Wakandan. For example Wakandan teens needn't ride skateboards, play basketball or write graffiti. They could however ride hover disks (see Panther's Prey for design ideas), play Atakwepa Mpira a dodgeball game played with multiple balls (a game I made up years ago and gave a Swahili name to) or since combat is so important to them they could "tag" the sky after a victory only to have it overwritten by an opposing team or opponent. These are some of the ways they could express their youthful vigor and teen angst and have it be uniquely Wakandan.

The cast and their adventures are of prime importance. I think the success comes more from a good writer telling a very good story that demonstrates a comprehensive understanding of the characters, their motivations and challenges. Add a meaningful support cast, a threatening rogues gallery, a few guest appearances and you have some of the makings of a successful comic. Other components would be artist, editorial and promotion. IMO that is what made Spider-man, Xmen, Hulk, Daredevil and the FF to name a few the successes they are today.

I feel you on that Battle. One of the many things I liked about Reg's BP cartoon was the animation. Its art style was unique by virtue of being modeled after Romita Jr.'s, thus rendering an Afrakan-esque aesthetic. The idea of moving away from Anime into something akin to Kirikou and the Sorceress is very appealing to me.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Battle on October 18, 2010, 06:54:49 am
I feel you on that Battle. One of the many things I liked about Reg's BP cartoon was the animation. Its art style was unique by virtue of being modeled after Romita Jr.'s, thus rendering an Afrakan-esque aesthetic. The idea of moving away from Anime into something akin to Kirikou and the Sorceress is very appealing to me.





That animation style of Black Panther: The Animated Series can be improved with each episode/season as the animators really dig into what works and what doesn't.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 19, 2010, 08:59:45 pm
Since we were on the subject of animation, heres a little something RolandJP of CBR presented in celebration to his 13,000 post. While not animated this is a strikingly beautiful piece of art. Here's to the next 13,000 Roland.

(http://pyakule.com/ture/blackpanther/Black_PantherRolandJP2.jpg)

"A good friend of mine posted these comments."

"Don McGregor gets a lot of stick for putting T'Challa through a gamut of pain and torturous scenarios during his Panther's Rage magnum opus but it's now obvious to me that Mr McGregor was incredibly passionate about T'Challa as a character as well as the world he hailed from. (Wakanda)"

"Once again for those who just love to obfuscate and bury their heads in the proverbial sand....."

Don McGregor:

"In those days you could read every book with a character before starting to write a series. It would become part of what I would try to do. Learn what I liked and learn what I didn't, and see what I could bring to a character without violating its own mythos."

"I immediately felt that the stories had to be about Wakandans, that already the Black Panther character had been compromised. Why would an African chieftain decide to be a school teacher in Harlem? And leave his people adrift, without leadership?"

"I also realized that Wakanda was a concept, but detailing how that country worked had never been explored. On top of that it would make me shake my head at how many white villains manage to locate this super secret society."

"That meant if the stories were situated in Wakanda, all the major characters would have to be Wakandan. And that meant all the characters save one would be black. Now along the way, issue after issue, editorial wanted to know where the white people were. Always "Where are the white people?" And my response was, "This is a hidden technologically advanced African nation. Where are the white people supposed to come from?!" They wanted the Avengers in there. They wanted white people helping black people out. It was my decision. I did not want the black hero to have to rely on white heroes to save the day for him. I stood firm on it, then. I stand firm on it now."


"McGregor's T'Challa may not have been as tech enhanced as Kirby or Priest's versions but he was just as burdened with responsibility for his peoples welfare and conflicted by the divergent nature of his Wakandan heritage and connections to the West via his relationship with Monica Lynn and membership within the Avengers."

"Don, crafted a solid tale that stands head and shoulder's above almost everything else any other writers have written featuring T'Challa and Wakanda. Dwayne McDuffie has referenced McGregor's take on the Black Panther mythos as being highly influential and contributory to his own understanding of T'Challa as a character and a vibrantly viable entity integral to the MU's rich mosaic."

"Don McGregor's thoughts and ruminations on T'Challa and Wakanda predate the internet or sales demographics but are just as relevant today as they were when he first penned them so it goes without saying that I personally don't give a frak for any of the usual excuses that get bandied about when the usual apologists for the current status quo peddle their wares."

"Marvel dropped the ball the minute they started allowing "celebrity" writers come in and start crafting tales around T'Challa that ignored the preceding works of the originators and innovators in favour of appealing to the lowest common denominators who frankly speaking, will never give a damn about T'Challa regardless of how watered down he becomes."

"Wakanda is part of the MU so why some writers and readers keep trotting out this "T'Challa works best in NYC" bollocks at the drop of a hat when all that's really required is a creative team with the uncompromising vision of Don McGregor, gleeful experimentation of Christopher Priest and the empathy of Dwayne McDuffie to do T'Challa and his people justice through well thought out and logically presented tales of heroism and high adventure."

"Basically....."

I hope you're peeping this Sin.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on October 24, 2010, 10:45:18 pm
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE. 

Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos. 

Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.

Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: supreme illuminati on October 25, 2010, 04:22:48 pm
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE. 

Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos. 

Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.



Fourthly,whoever wwrote this is tremendously passionate about TCHALLA and the BLACK PANTHER

Fifthly,whoever wrote this completely ignored the RH TCHALLA who is,without a doubt,the hardest,BLACKEST,most NON-APOLOGETIC TCHALLA that has ever been crafted in a series.Period.RH BP sold morethan any other BP author ever,was the first and OLNLY BP that featured more than 3 Black superheroes in the same book in the same panel at the same time without needing help from White compatriots,and RH pulled off the Marriage of the Centurey and is SINGLE HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EDITORIAL AT MU ELEVATING BP TO "A-LISTER" STATUS.Period.Jason Aaron would have probably broke sales records wide open if he did more than just write an arc starring BP,and his BP is probably the SECRET SUCCESS FORMULA for keeping BP in his own series that is widely embraced by all.D-MAC (Dwayne Macgregor) didn't get a full series in with his BP+ORORO F4 so even though we all know that THE MAESTRO is MADNESS? He hasn't run it like RH has.IfJason Aaron's BP isn't the secret? D-Mac's or J.A.+D-Mac's+CJP+RH+JM--yes Jonathan Maberry--is.

But if you COMBINE these BP's,do you know what you get? CONTINUITY.Jussayin.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Ture on October 26, 2010, 07:36:26 am
Reg, first, we agree on the insanity of the BP artwork by RolandJP, second we agree that Don McGregor was in fact crucial to the Black Panther mythos. However I am of the opinion that the poster I quoted does not have a "bias against writers who do anything except write comics." It is my opinion that the poster was being critical of Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar and tentative about David Liss' Black Panther: Man Without Fear. I believe those are the two celebrity writers the poster was referencing.

I agree with you Supreme Illuminati about Reg's contributions and while it is not my station at this time to speak for another, it is my opinion that the poster I quoted would also agree. 
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on October 26, 2010, 08:54:45 am
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE. 

Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos. 

Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.



Mr Hudlin,

Since I was the original author of the post you've criticized I feel it necessary to clarify things for you directly.

I dropped my original post over in the CBR under another pseudonym (known to a few posters over here in the HEF) and most heads like Ture, know exactly whom I'm referring to when I talk about "celebrity" writers.

I've made no secret of the fact that though I recognize Jonathan Maberry as a talented and able writer based on his personal work on his own stuff (Patient Zero, Bad moon Rising ) I found his work on Doomwar below standard and totally at odds with what most true fans of T'Challa and Ororo would have expected following on from the murderous assault/ambush by Doom upon T'Challa that you penned shortly before Maberry took over the writing duties on the Black Panther monthly.

Doomwar was all about the greatness of Dr Doom as opposed to providing T'Challa with an opportunity to get revenge against the villain who was responsible for almost killing him, actually killing two of his Dora Milaje's and funding a Desturi led coup in his nation with the ultimate aim of stealing Wakanda's Vibranium reserves.

Maberry crafted a tale that rendered Ororo virtually powerless, had Bast, the Panther deity acquiescing to Doom's warped logic as well as portraying T'Challa as an ineffectual chump stumped at every turn by Doom's "superior" intellect.

And in-between all this, Maberry alongside some readers took to describing Shuri (your creation) as being an out of control train wreck of a character and thug to boot which seemed quite odd things to say as he was penning her fighting alongside her brother to reclaim Wakanda from the Desturi usurpers.

In Doomwar's aftermath, all of Wakanda's Vibranium is gone by T'Challa's hand and Doom (supposedly immune from justice by decree of Marvel editorial) has returned to Latveria to plan his next world dominating plot whilst T'Challa has supposedly fled to Hell's Kitchen to run a coffee shop and get bottles smashed over his head by random hoodlums.

Ironically, Black Panther: Man Without Fear is being penned by David Liss, another "celebrity" writer (and personal friend of Jonathan Maberry's)who admits to having limited knowledge as to who T'Challa is which probably explains a lot of his comments to the effect that T'Challa will be fighting crime in Daredevil's usual stomping grounds sans equipment, contacts or access to Wakandan resources in an adventure that sounds more like some sort of lame Batman:Year One knock off than anything truly suited to a character of T'Challa's stature and pedigree.

Tom Breevoort has stated that T'Challa's being transpanted to Hell's Kitchen is Marvel's response to "fans" supposedly complaining that they've found it hard to identify with T'Challa due to his having been tucked away in Wakanda for too long. But to this I ask, is Wakanda not part of the MU?

Why is it that most writers at Marvel or DC find it more easy to craft tales around alien characters hailing from other galaxies, mutants, demi gods and supernatural beings but find it nigh on impossible to write about an African Monarch hailing from an albeit fictional African nation that also happens to be amongst the most technologically advanced in the Marvel Universe?

My bias against celebrity writers such as Jonathan Maberry, David Liss and Marc Guggenheim stems more from their penchant for ignoring pre-established canon in favour of introducing out of continuity concepts and ideas that invariably lead to much confusion and (in some cases) total derailment of the mythos and characters concerned.

Your introduction of Shuri as T'Challa's ret-conned little sister really grated but at least you made her a compelling character unlike Jonathan Maberry who is now making her out to be an out of control and irresponsible character with anger management issues. 

So Mr Hudlin, far from me having some sort've "cornball bias against writers who do anything apart from writing comics" I've merely made my observations known as is my right to do as a discerning reader.

To do less would be truly idiotic.

Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
Post by: Salustrade on October 26, 2010, 09:05:59 am
First of all, that piece of art is INSANE. 

Second of all, Don McGregor did crucial work on creating the Panther mythos. 

Third, whoever wrote this has a real cornball bias against writers who do anything except write comics, which is idiotic.



Fourthly,whoever wwrote this is tremendously passionate about TCHALLA and the BLACK PANTHER

Fifthly,whoever wrote this completely ignored the RH TCHALLA who is,without a doubt,the hardest,BLACKEST,most NON-APOLOGETIC TCHALLA that has ever been crafted in a series.Period.RH BP sold morethan any other BP author ever,was the first and OLNLY BP that featured more than 3 Black superheroes in the same book in the same panel at the same time without needing help from White compatriots,and RH pulled off the Marriage of the Centurey and is SINGLE HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EDITORIAL AT MU ELEVATING BP TO "A-LISTER" STATUS.Period.Jason Aaron would have probably broke sales records wide open if he did more than just write an arc starring BP,and his BP is probably the SECRET SUCCESS FORMULA for keeping BP in his own series that is widely embraced by all.D-MAC (Dwayne Macgregor) didn't get a full series in with his BP+ORORO F4 so even though we all know that THE MAESTRO is MADNESS? He hasn't run it like RH has.IfJason Aaron's BP isn't the secret? D-Mac's or J.A.+D-Mac's+CJP+RH+JM--yes Jonathan Maberry--is.

But if you COMBINE these BP's,do you know what you get? CONTINUITY.Jussayin.

You can rest assured that I most definitley did not ignore any of Reginald Hudlin's contributions to the Black Panther mythos.

At the time of my posti