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Politics => Vox Populi => Topic started by: Kristopher on May 21, 2010, 11:46:48 am

Title: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on May 21, 2010, 11:46:48 am
As the Huffington Post first reported Monday, Mark Williams, the national Tea Party leader, is at it again.

In a rant against a planned 13-story mosque to be built near the World Trade Center site, Williams claims that Muslims worship a "monkey god."

Unsurprisingly, this has angered Muslims nationwide.

From Williams' blog:
The monument would consist of a Mosque for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god (repeat: "the terrorists' monkey-god." if you feel that fits a description of Allah then that is your own deep-seated emotional baggage not mine, talk to the terrorists who use Allah as their excuse and the Muslims who apologize for and rationalize them) and a "cultural center" to propagandize for the extermination of all things not approved by their cult. It is a project of American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, essentially the same group of apologists (but under 2 different names) for terrorists and the animals who use it as a terrorist ideology. They cloak their evil with new age gibberish that suggests Islam is just misunderstood.

In a press release, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights and advocacy group, responded to the hate speech.
"It would be shocking if such ignorant comments failed to elicit a strong response not only from Tea Party leaders, but from other parties throughout the political spectrum," said CAIR National Legislative Director Corey Saylor.
Title: Tea Party Leader, Mark Williams Apologizes...to Hindus
Post by: Kristopher on May 21, 2010, 11:48:36 am
Tea Party leader Mark Williams, under fire for saying Muslims worship a "monkey god," has apologized -- to Hindus.

In another post on his blog, Williams writes:
A few days ago I wrote an article critical of a monument to the 911 hijackers to be built at Ground Zero and scheduled to open on 9/11/11. I can only assume the date is only to emphasize the perverted message of the monument. The only thing sicker is that Americans will not only allow it but that they will defend it.
In the course of the article I described the "god" worshiped by terrorists as "a monkey god". I was wrong and that was offensive. I owe an apology to millions of Hindus who worship Lord Hanuman, an actual Monkey God.
Moreover, Hanuman is worshiped as a symbol of perseverance, strength and devotion. He is known as a destroyer of evil and to inspire and liberate. Those are hardly the traits of whatever the Hell (literally) it is that terrorists worship and worthy of my respect and admiration not ridicule.
So, again, to my Hindu friends I offer my sincerest apologies for my horrible lapse and my insensitivity. It was unintentional, inexplicably ignorant and I am ashamed at my offense toward you.


He did not apologize to Muslims, and has since password-protected the original inflammatory blog post.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on May 22, 2010, 01:41:01 am
What kind of animal God do domestic terrorists worship?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on May 22, 2010, 11:34:42 pm
As you are well aware from our prior discussions on the HEF, Williams has been the recipient of strong criticism from other "Tea Party Leaders."  I don't care for the man.  Not at all.  While I don't think he is a "plant" ... he could not do a better job in undermining the Tea Party Movement, and sullying the motives of the decent men and women who are involved, if he tried.

Nor do I know enough about the Muslim organization he references (that wishes to build the "Cultural Center") to express an opinion, and based on the tone and tenor of his comments, I would seek independent verification of his charges,  rather than taking his word for it.  Though some of the wealthy organizations are funded with Saudi money, I have no knowledge of this specific organization, its funding, its ideology, or its geopolitics.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 23, 2010, 11:00:38 am
That's a pretty soft repudiation of a racist bastard. Perhaps there is a reason the vast majority of Tea Baggers are white.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on May 23, 2010, 11:43:47 am
Bullsh*t, Redjack.  Of course the man's reference to "monkey-god" was moronic, ignorant and bigoted, that goes without saying. Was it really necessary to state to obvious, to spell that out, for you? Sheesh. Why do you think I said what I said about him?

Really, man, put it back in your pants.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 23, 2010, 11:46:56 am
I think not.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on May 23, 2010, 11:57:02 am
No, you're right. Why abandon your own racial bigotry and stereotypes.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 23, 2010, 02:51:45 pm
I'm not a bigot, Michael. Nor do I engage in stereotype. I'm very sad for all the people who see the darkening of america and the loosening of religious control of our social structures as a thing to be feared. I'm sad for the people who buy into the whole "government is bad/corporations are just people trying to earn a living" mantra because they fear the alternative which is thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for their status as American citizens. I'm sad for people who've been made weary by the conversation about "race" and its implications and consequences.

I'm sad for them but I don't actually entertain for a moment that the "ideas" they present, all born of the fear of change and power loss, should be given respect or attention.

I can't help it if some people don't want to live in the real world but it's not my job to indulge their fantasies, only to prevent those fantasies from hurting the rest of us. Since you've thrown your lot in with these morons, you're going to have to eat the same crap they do. That's how it works until you wise up.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on May 23, 2010, 04:35:16 pm
Geoff, actually, your negative characterization reveals your bias.  One could just as easily say that those you "pity" who wish to view all of us as American Citizens, without regard to race or ethnicity, and it is the Left that is obsessed with ethnic fragmentation and division. That it is those whom you "pity" who cherish the liberty and religious freedom and the value of the individual.
 
It is all a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 23, 2010, 05:31:49 pm
Sure. Pity works too.

But please don't dress it up as desiring equality because that's a load of sh*t. These are precisely the people who turned hoses on us and give aid and support to the folks who kill "abortion doctors."

What they would like is for us to forget how this country treats and treated us and, brother, I wouldn't hold my breath. When the kicking stops, then we can talk about shaking hands.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on May 23, 2010, 06:58:03 pm
Hold on to it Geoff, hold onto it.  Never ever let it go.

Somehow, I've gotta wonder, when was the last time someone turned his hose on you ...?  Most likely when you were a youngster, playing in the sprinklers.  Which is, without a doubt, the only time anyone who attends a Tea Party Ralley these days turned his hose on anyone ... to play with his kids while watering the lawn. 

Talkin' about living in a fantasy world.  But don't let it go ...

Those damned white people ...

I feel sorry for 'em too.  ::)

Though it does make your talk about being a "tribe" and our being "American citizens" etc etc etc ... sound like a lotta hot air.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 23, 2010, 10:28:25 pm
Except, in my tribe, we have women and whites and asians and south asians and homosexuals and Christians and Muslims, hindus, Jews and Atheists. We have Buddhists and geeks. What we don't have is bigots. It's easy to attempt to reduce my arguments to some version of intransigent "reverse" racism or that I'm somehow mired in my own "angers" about "past" misdeeds.

Sadly, that dog won't hunt.

The teabaggers are a bunch of fear-crazed nutjobs who you had better pray don't get a foothold in this country's government.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on May 24, 2010, 08:33:22 am
Hold on to it Geoff, hold onto it.  Never ever let it go.

Somehow, I've gotta wonder, when was the last time someone turned his hose on you ...?  Most likely when you were a youngster, playing in the sprinklers.  Which is, without a doubt, the only time anyone who attends a Tea Party Ralley these days turned his hose on anyone ... to play with his kids while watering the lawn. 

Talkin' about living in a fantasy world.  But don't let it go ...

Those damned white people ...

I feel sorry for 'em too.  ::)

Though it does make your talk about being a "tribe" and our being "American citizens" etc etc etc ... sound like a lotta hot air.

Is it your view that racial discrimination is no longer significant?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on May 24, 2010, 11:01:06 am
Mark Williams is an asshole pure and simple. Who says something like that? I don't follow the faith but I'll be glad to "take one for the team" and punch him in his face where he stands. For crying out loud I just lost for words I mean HE IS A f*ckING ASSHOLE!! He is right up there with Pat Robinson, James David Manning, Rod Parsley, Steven Anderson, and many others with their "teachings". 
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Hypestyle on May 30, 2010, 01:21:36 pm
just recently a lawsuit was announced over a Detroit bus company's refusal to accept advertising from a conservative think-tank that seems to targets former muslims and those 'on the fence'-- http://tinyurl.com/2c5fyab

some background info:
In Detroit, there is a city-owned bus system that almost exclusively deals with Detroit proper, and separately there is a privately owned company, 'SMART', www.smartbus.org, that handles nearly all the surrounding suburbs..
Metro Detroit has a populous community of people of Arabic descent, many are muslim, some are christian (most typically ethnic Iraqis/chaldeans, who tend to be Catholic or eastern orthodox); also there is a significant demographic of African-American Muslims (and others)..

Thomas More Law Center: founded by Tom Monaghan, the ex-Domino's CEO, is a devout Catholic conservative, who since leaving the pizza firm has set out to establish a "christian city" in southern florida.. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article735109.ece

depending on how the lawsuit goes, it could end up setting a precedent..
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Jay on May 30, 2010, 03:34:36 pm
Welll .... Muslims haven't been getting good press lately.

In fact this prank call probably expresses how most people feel about Muslims

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad6_1215790857&c=1

^I must note that I don't share any of the views expressed in this video
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on May 31, 2010, 07:31:12 am
I think Mark Williams is an A-hole but I also think we're getting too "accommodating" to Muslims. The bottom of the truth is that Islam is a "barbaric" religion that has refused to evolve with the times. If we don't start growing a pair I do believe they're going to end up taking over. And trust me. You don't want to live under Muslim rule.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Lion on May 31, 2010, 08:35:17 am
Francisco. No offense. You're generally dead on... But that sounds like some paranoid bullsh*t right there.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Jay on May 31, 2010, 08:48:21 am
I also think we're getting too "accommodating" to Muslims. The bottom of the truth is that Islam is a "barbaric" religion that has refused to evolve with the times. If we don't start growing a pair I do believe they're going to end up taking over. And trust me. You don't want to live under Muslim rule.

That is paranoia but you're not wrong about being too accommodating ... but we're being too accommodating across the board to a lot of ethnic groups. Not just Muslims.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on May 31, 2010, 01:18:32 pm
I think Mark Williams is an A-hole but I also think we're getting too "accommodating" to Muslims. The bottom of the truth is that Islam is a "barbaric" religion that has refused to evolve with the times. If we don't start growing a pair I do believe they're going to end up taking over. And trust me. You don't want to live under Muslim rule.


Maybe you should read this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517H6A1CZTL.jpg)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 31, 2010, 02:03:48 pm
If Islam is a barbaric religion then so are Christianity and Judaism. They're all basically the same faith.

As an outsider, that is, a person who doesn't believe in magic, I have to say one of the more amusing/offensive things I get to see on a regular basis is the adherents of one magical belief system pointing fingers at the adherents of another and saying, "You're all idiots! backward-thinking idiots!"

If they are, kids, you are too.

Step back. Take another look.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 02:26:22 pm
If Islam is a barbaric religion then so are Christianity and Judaism. They're all basically the same faith.

As an outsider, that is, a person who doesn't believe in magic, I have to say one of the more amusing/offensive things I get to see on a regular basis is the adherents of one magical belief system pointing fingers at the adherents of another and saying, "You're all idiots! backward-thinking idiots!"

If they are, kids, you are too.

Step back. Take another look.

I agree
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on May 31, 2010, 02:33:01 pm
I think Mark Williams is an A-hole but I also think we're getting too "accommodating" to Muslims. The bottom of the truth is that Islam is a "barbaric" religion that has refused to evolve with the times. If we don't start growing a pair I do believe they're going to end up taking over. And trust me. You don't want to live under Muslim rule.
you sound like those minister i just named
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on May 31, 2010, 06:32:19 pm
Hang on guys. First of all I'm not Christian.. I'm not even a theist. And yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam with the key difference that we in the west don't allow our clergy (most of the time) to dictate law or rule over us since a few centuries ago. When you have a faith that actively calls its followers to wage war against the infidel, to stone women to death and/or force them to stay at home and to cover their faces it's pretty accurate to refer to it as barbaric.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on May 31, 2010, 06:44:38 pm
Francisco. No offense. You're generally dead on... But that sounds like some paranoid bullsh*t right there.
Non taken.

Allow me to elaborate more in what I mean by taking over. Just look at every country were Islam has been allowed to grow freely. While they are a minority everything is good and dandy until they amass enough numbers and then they try to force their religion upon everyone. The Philippines and Indonesia by instance. As soon as they have enough number they want to Islamize everything. My main issue with Islam is their apparent inability to secularize anything. Even Turkey which prides itself of being quite secularist is at its core dominated by Islam in ways no western nation is dominated by Christianity. Women may not be forced to cover their faces but if you're not Muslim you're not allowed to carry out a normal life or to aspire to public office.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 31, 2010, 07:33:37 pm
Hang on guys. First of all I'm not Christian.. I'm not even a theist. And yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam with the key difference that we in the west don't allow our clergy (most of the time) to dictate law or rule over us since a few centuries ago. When you have a faith that actively calls its followers to wage war against the infidel, to stone women to death and/or force them to stay at home and to cover their faces it's pretty accurate to refer to it as barbaric.

Perhaps you should re-read both the Torah and the Bible. You may be surprised at what you find. There are many interpretations of the word "jihad." Not all of them involve hurting people.

Also, as far as I know, no politician in the US can be elected if he or she doesn't proclaim a belief in the Judeo-Christian God. The "don't ask/don't tell" policy that may or may not be struck down soon is a direct result of religious idiocy in this nation as is our ludicrous policy on sex education and abortion. If you live in the West or in most of the so-called 3rd World, you do, very much, live under the rule of religious castes that have no basis in reality but which definitely have a negative effect upon it.

All of them believe in magic and, insofar as there is absolutely no such thing as magic, all of them are equally backward and equally barbaric.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on May 31, 2010, 08:15:52 pm
Does the American constitution allow for the stoning of women?
Are non-Christians, non monotheistic practitioners and atheist forced to pay more taxes than Christians or theists?
Are women forced to cover their faces and remain at home under the American Constitution?
Are women not allowed to vote under American constitution?
Are men legally allowed to marry prepubescent girls? (Mohamed married a 3 or so years old girl) (and less than a couple of years several middle aged men married a bunch of 7 to 10 year old girls in Saudi Arabia)


It doesn't matter how many different meanings the word jihad may have. The matter of the fact is that they chose the one with lots of death people over the other benign ones.

And yes they are equally back wards. The question is where would you rather live? In your flawed United States with its idiotic policies on sex education or in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or Iran? 
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on May 31, 2010, 08:51:32 pm
yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam

Quote from: Jesus Christ
'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

Yeah, that is pretty barbaric! ::)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Vic Vega on May 31, 2010, 08:58:57 pm
Lets make it simple: Poverty+Massive social inequality+inability to move up in social class=Barbarism.

Because the peons have to take it out on somebody.

The difference between THE MUSLIM WORLD and OVER HERE is that for is rigged as the game of social and economic advance is here its not utterly hopeless as it is in say Saudi Arabia.

There a peasant born, a peasant you stay til you die.

Religion gives folks something to think about other than how screwed they are. Were it possible to move between social strata in much of the Muslim world the populace would be too busy hustling for the come up to BE worried about stuff like if thier women talk back to them or not.

All that stuff does is give them folks somebody to push around since they have no means of effectively bettering themselves. Aside from emigration that is.

It is no surprise that the states  that abortion clinics are blowing up and abortion doctors are getting killed(by alleged Christians mind you) are dirt poor states. In the rich states folks are worrying about thier hustle or lack of it.

Its in every Imam interest over there to get and keep the Muslim world hopping mad about Israel and the Great Satan and God knows what else so that they don't ever start wondering why they are all so broke ass in an oil rich region.

They'd all get thier throats slit otherwise.  

But not for nothing, the only real difference between them and us is GNP.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on May 31, 2010, 09:11:04 pm
yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam

Quote from: Jesus Christ
'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

Yeah, that is pretty barbaric! ::)
If your brother wears two different pieces of clothing made of different fabrics you must stone him to death. That's the humane thing to do  ::)

The thing is that for every sound verse written in the bible there are at least 20 more calling to do crazy stuff.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 31, 2010, 09:21:31 pm
Hey. I've actually read the Bible and the Koran. I've read bunches of the Torah. Some of you all will want to do the same before getting snide and superior and snippy about it.

The POINT is you self-righteous Christians and Jews are, in fact, picking and choosing which verses you like & which you don't just as many, MANY, Muslims do. If you were to follow your books to the letter you would be the same people you're pointing at. And a great many of you do and are. It also amuses and saddens me that so many black americans are Christians at all considering how that faith was "given" to you. It's like the offspring of a child molester growing up and teaching how great it is to be a child molester.

Nearly none of you would be Christians now if not for your ancestors being enslaved by people whose bibles not only justify that enslavement but can be interpreted to mean that we, not being white, are all subhuman, bearing the mark of Cain. Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)

I'm mildly amused at how each sect justifies which verses they pick and choose to follow.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Islam. Nothing that isn't equally wrong with your own faiths.

You're all the same. Precisely the same.

I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable. They are. But you want to stay off that high horse when you're looking at Islam. You don't have ANYTHING over them. Not one thing.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: 4sake on May 31, 2010, 09:49:04 pm
Hey. I've actually read the Bible and the Koran. I've read bunches of the Torah. Some of you all will want to do the same before getting snide and superior and snippy about it.

The POINT is you self-righteous Christians and Jews are, in fact, picking and choosing which verses you like & which you don't just as many, MANY, Muslims do. If you were to follow your books to the letter you would be the same people you're pointing at. And a great many of you do and are. It also amuses and saddens me that so many black americans are Christians at all considering how that faith was "given" to you. It's like the offspring of a child molester growing up and teaching how great it is to be a child molester.

Nearly none of you would be Christians now if not for your ancestors being enslaved by people whose bibles not only justify that enslavement but can be interpreted to mean that we, not being white, are all subhuman, bearing the mark of Cain. Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)

I'm mildly amused at how each sect justifies which verses they pick and choose to follow.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Islam. Nothing that isn't equally wrong with your own faiths.

You're all the same. Precisely the same.

I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable. They are. But you want to stay off that high horse when you're looking at Islam. You don't have ANYTHING over them. Not one thing.

This is exactly how I feel also & COSIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  8)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on May 31, 2010, 10:48:36 pm
yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam

Quote from: Jesus Christ
'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

Yeah, that is pretty barbaric! ::)
If your brother wears two different pieces of clothing made of different fabrics you must stone him to death. That's the humane thing to do  ::)

The thing is that for every sound verse written in the bible there are at least 20 more calling to do crazy stuff.

"Crazy" is a subjective term, but I'll bite, name 20 then, just for fun. Let's make it easy, New Testament only.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on May 31, 2010, 10:58:19 pm
The entire Book of Revelations is the ravings of a madman.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 01, 2010, 06:50:52 am
Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)
Nice try.
Jesus never condoned the cruel and ruthless slavery that humans have brought upon one another.
The slavery Jesus "was cool with" was serving people with absolute selfless love, regardless what positions we are in: doctors, teachers, employers and employees, parents and children.
He taught that the two most important commandments are 1) love God, and 2) love others as you love yourself. It's that simple, but you know this don't you?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 01, 2010, 07:13:44 am
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "N¡gger". Never been called that before. :o ;D
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2010, 07:18:14 am
Both religions (Christianity and Islam) were introduced in Africa the same way.. (By war and enslavement)
There's even the story of an East African King that was kidnapped by Arab Muslims (after he helped them to repair their damaged boat) and taken to the middle east to be enslaved.
There he learned about Islam. Years later he escaped and traveled back to his land to teach his people the word of the prophet. A few years after his return, the same guys that had kidnapped him crashed their boat again and when they saw the same guy they had kidnapped and sold into slavery they almost sh*t their pants. But you know what happend? The King instead of killing the m f*ckers, thank them for allowing him to learn the words of the prophet.  ::)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 01, 2010, 07:48:36 am
Unfortunately, I don't have time to contribute futher to this conversaton, but wanted to share these couple of thoughts.

Regarding the comments on Christianity and Judaism: One cannot understand Christianity or Judaism without a complete understanding of the traditions of both faiths; in the case of Christianity, the effects of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, and in the case of Judaism an understanding that it is comprised of not only of the written Torah but also a wide body of Oral Law (revealed to Moses at Sinai) and also volumes upon volumes of rabbinic works. Any understand of either faith based on the "text of the Bible" is entirely incomplete. Also, in the context of the United States, one needs an understanding of the historical origins of our country and the American Constitutional framework vis a vis religion, giving rise to attitudes of far greater religious tolerance than found in other parts of the world.  

One also needs to understand the different strains of Islam and Islamic thought, and which ones are today getting major funding in the U.S. from foreign sources.

As to the proposal to build the mosque at the site of the World Trade Center: Would the New York City officials be so accommodating if, say, a group was proposing to build a Pentecostal or Baptist Church on the site? An Orthodox Synagogue? Would the reaction be different from Liberal and Leftist sources to such proposals?  Would there be the same degree of accommodation?

How will a mosque on the site of Ground Zero be perceived by the Islamists?  As a victory?  The destruction of the Temple of the West, to be replaced by a Mosque?

Where is the funding for this mosque coming from?  The Imam has said he will use U.S.-sourced funds, but he has already solicited funds in the Middle East, and no doubt this is where much of the funding will have to come from (given the cost) whether or not it is filtered through U.S. entities or given directly.  

He appears to adhere to a rather fundamentalist strain of Islam, though he also knows the parameters of acceptable public commentary.

Here is an example of an interview discussing the perspective of the Imam leading the effort to build the mosque:

Inside the Push for Ground Zero-Area Mosque
Friday, May 21, 2010
This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," May 20, 2010. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST: There has been great outrage following plans for a mosque set to be built just blocks from the site of 9/11's Ground Zero. And now the imam spearheading the building of this 13-story structure is defending his plans. Let's take a look:

(Begin Video Clip)

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, BEHIND GROUND ZERO MOSQUE: We have the right to build this building as a right. We don't need any zoning variations. We can just go ahead and build it without permissions or expressions of support from anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: But he may be much more radical than most Americans know.

Now in a book published back in 2004, "What Is Right With Islam," Feisal Abdul Rauf, he wrote of his fondness for Sharia Law and his belief that the U.S. can accommodate it. He argued, quote, that "the American political structure is Sharia compliant," continuing, quote, "For America to score even higher on the 'Islamic' or 'Sharia' compliance scale, America would need to do two things: invite the voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation's practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws."

I suppose that would mean allowing Muslims to have their own Sharia courts, Jewish people to have their own courts, Christians their own courts and so on and so on.

How very American? Constitutional?

Joining me now with reaction is the director of JihadWatch.org, Robert Spencer, and the cofounder for 9/11 Families for a Safe and Strong America, Deborah Burlingame. Our friend is back with us.

Good to see you. Thanks for being here.


DEBORAH BURLINGAME, COFOUNDER, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR A SAFE AND STRONG AMERICA: Hi, Sean.

HANNITY: Good to see you. Thanks for being here.

All right. Sharia Law compliant?

ROBERT SPENCER, DIRECTOR, JIHADWATCH.ORG: What he's saying is that America has put no roadblocks in the place of the implementation of Sharia. And this is why we're having a rally on June 6 against this mosque. Pamela Geller and I and Stop the Islamization of America, we're having a rally to protest against this mosque. Because Sharia is at variance with the American law in numerous ways and with American freedoms — the freedom of speech, the freedom of conscience, the equality of rights of women with men, the equality of rights of all people before the law.

Sharia denies all that. Feisal Abdul Rauf is for all that.

HANNITY: What he's saying here is that — and look, this is the guy — this is right next to nine — you know, Ground Zero.

SPENCER: Yes.

HANNITY: All right. So they're going to build a 13-story mosque. But what he's saying here is religious communities in America, forget the U.S. Constitution, you know, equal justice under the law and constitutional principles. He's saying that they ought to be allowed to judge themselves and use Sharia Law here in America. Is that your take, Deborah?

BURLINGAME: It is. It's my take, it's his take.

HANNITY: That's a great point.

BURLINGAME: And in fact he's really trying to get Sharia, sneak it in, hoping that Americans aren't familiar with their own Constitution. Americans do understand the concept of the separation of church and state. And Muslims here in this country understand — who have embraced the American way of life, have embraced the concept of separation of mosque and state.

But look what he's doing when he goes abroad. This book...

HANNITY: You — I wanted to point this out. You brought this — this is in this book. This is the imam that is — is spearheading the effort to build the mosque. These are his words. He's the one that has argued that Sharia Law could be used in the U.S., because they can have their own courts and religious leaders, correct?

BURLINGAME: Yes. But — but when he published this in 2007 in the Muslim world, he didn't call it "What's Right With Islam" and a later title, "What's Right with America." He called it "A Call to Prayer From the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Da'wah From the Heart of America..."

HANNITY: Meaning?

BURLINGAME: "... Post-9/11." Robert, tell him what da'wah means.

SPENCER: Da'wah is Islamic proselytizing. And in the Islamic law, da'wah precedes jihad. You call the nonbelievers to Islam. And if they refuse to accept it, then you initiate the jihad against them. But the whole goal of both da'wah and jihad is to impose Islamic law or Sharia upon the nonbelievers as a political system, not as a religious one.

HANNITY: What about the controversy — controversy involving his father?

SPENCER: The controversy involving his father involves the Muslim Brotherhood and the fact that this guy has ties to this group that is, in its own words, "dedicated to eliminating and destroying western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house."

HANNITY: So you both believe — and as I read this, this is becoming more and more alarming to me. And you have been very nice to give me a copy of the book and tell me about the translation when it was first published, you know, in other countries — that he would want to impose or at least allow for Muslims to have the ability to transcend the American court system.

SPENCER: Oh, yes.

HANNITY: Explain Sharia Law. Why don't we go into in just a little detail in the short time we have?

SPENCER: Well, Sharia Law denies equality of rights...

HANNITY: To women.

SPENCER: ... to non-Muslims, to women.

HANNITY: Right, right.

SPENCER: And it does not allow for them to operate in an equal system.

See, the thing about Sharia is unlike — you mentioned Jewish courts in the beginning, Sean. The thing, the difference is, is that no other religious system makes rules for people who are outside the religion. But Islamic law does. And it mandates, institutionalizes the subjugation of non-Muslims. And so that's what Feisal Abdul Rauf is actually calling for.

BURLINGAME: And let me also add, this man has close ties to the Malaysian government. The Cordova Initiative, his — his operation that's going to build this mosque, is funded by the Malaysian government. He has offices in Malaysia. That's where he published this book.

And in Malaysia, in the Sharia courts, Sharia courts are mandated. No Muslim can go into a civil court. They have to have their things adjudicated in these courts. There are penalties for converting to Christianity there.

HANNITY: You lost your brother. Your brother was the pilot of the American Airlines flight that hit the — the Pentagon.

BURLINGAME: Right.

HANNITY: All right. Mayor Bloomberg just raced out there, at least through a spokesman and others. And all of this is fine, these people that are opposing this, this is outrageous.

BURLINGAME: I don't think that's what he said, Sean. To give him credit, his — his remark was very neutral. What he said was...

HANNITY: They have a right to...

BURLINGAME: They — they have lawfully purchased this property. And they have a right to build. In other words, he wasn't endorsing the project. Imam Rauf and his wife are saying that. But he has uttered no such thing.

HANNITY: Listen, if all of this is true and with the relationship of his father, should he even be in the U.S.? I'll ask both of you quick.

SPENCER: Feisal Abdul Rauf needs to be questioned with his followers as to whether his loyalty is really with the U.S. Constitution or not.

HANNITY: Do you think — what do you suspect?

SPENCER: Oh, I don't think he is at all. I think he wants to impose Islamic law here. He's very explicit about that, in fact.

BURLINGAME: I believe he does embrace the Constitution, and he knows if he gets enough Muslims voting in the voting booth he can change the Constitution to accept Sharia and create Sharia courts right here. That's what da'wah will do.

HANNITY: We'll continue to follow the story. Guys, thanks very much. We appreciate it
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 01, 2010, 08:32:46 am
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 08:34:21 am
Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)
Nice try.
Jesus never condoned the cruel and ruthless slavery that humans have brought upon one another.
The slavery Jesus "was cool with" was serving people with absolute selfless love, regardless what positions we are in: doctors, teachers, employers and employees, parents and children.
He taught that the two most important commandments are 1) love God, and 2) love others as you love yourself. It's that simple, but you know this don't you?

Yeah. No. In fact Jesus said a lot of stuff and some of it was crap. Just like Mohammed and the prophets of the OT/ Torah. Depending on the era and location, so-called believers have picked and chosen which bits they like and will support and which they don't and won't. I'm always stunned at how these choices are made considering the whole book- whichever one you're using- is supposed to have come from God. It's a neat trick.

This isn't a theological debate. It's an ethical one.

While the slavery practiced in the ancient world was not the same sort we had here in the US , the kind Jesus was used to was no less brutal. There's no such thing as sweet slavery. There is no version of it that falls under the heading of benign or loving. Sorry. It's not a "nice try." It's an accurate understanding of the world in which your savior lived and the people to whom he was preaching his Good News.

You don't get to rewrite that in order to make him sweeter. When he was talking about slaves, he was talking about actual human beings who were considered property. He was fine with the concept and the practice and there's no getting around it. What has changed since then is not the words but the people in the real world. Those words, those particular words, had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 08:36:37 am
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "N¡gger". Never been called that before. :o ;D

No, I'm not. I'm not trying to get a rise out of them. I've been surrounded by Believers my entire life. I think their world view is sweet when it makes them do good works and sh*tty when it makes them intolerant, judgmental pricks. Most people who claim to follow a faith haven't even done the minimum necessary to understand it  i.e. reading the foundational documents and knowing what their Gods have asked them to do. I have read those books and many more besides so, far from belittling them, I'd like to understand how they get to point the finger. More than that, I'd like them to stop.

If you're going to call Islam a barbaric faith, you'd better be doing it from somewhere other than a christian or jewish position.

I don't actually care about the magic in itself, only what belief in it makes one do.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2010, 09:12:33 am
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 


You just let them get enough numbers and they will start waging war against the infidel. That's how it works. (Ask Indonesia and every other Asian country were Islam has been allowed to prosper) So they want to build a mosque near ground zero? Fine, let them have it. So they want to instate communities under their own sharia laws? No f*cking hell no!! Secularism is the right way to go if they don't like it then they can go back to the middle east. As simple as that.

If we can have Jesus fighting Hitler in the octagon with no one getting killed for been a blasphemer we should be able to watch a south park episode depicting Mohamed without anybody receiving death treats or been killed as well.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 01, 2010, 09:22:43 am
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "N¡gger". Never been called that before. :o ;D
If he isnt saying anything new then the question is why would some still follow the faith is his point. No it doesnt come across as snide. It is a very serious question to be asked. And honestly most don't have the proper answer.


Quote
If we can have Jesus fighting Hitler in the octagon with no one getting killed for been a blasphemer we should be able to watch a south park episode depicting Mohamed without anybody receiving death treats or been killed as well.
That is a fair assessment to have
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: moor on June 01, 2010, 09:28:27 am
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "N¡gger". Never been called that before. :o ;D

No, I'm not. I'm not trying to get a rise out of them. I've been surrounded by Believers my entire life. I think their world view is sweet when it makes them do good works and sh*tty when it makes them intolerant, judgmental pricks. Most people who claim to follow a faith haven't even done the minimum necessary to understand it  i.e. reading the foundational documents and knowing what their God's have asked them to do. I have read those books and many more besides so, far from belittling them, I'd like to understand how they get to point the finger. More than that, I'd like them to stop.

If you're going to call Islam a barbaric faith, you'd better be doing it from somewhere other than a christian or jewish position.

I don't actually care about the magic in itself, only what belief in it makes one do.



Without belittling any of the points you made, Red, I have to say that my experience is this is true no matter what informs a person's world-view.  It's like you said, people who claim to follow a faith can give any number of reasons for justification of their actions.  I don't know that human behavior is necessarily the best barometer for spiritual doctrines, at least when you're referring to Christianity and Judaism.  I know the Koran views the aspect of "original sin" a lot differently, but I'd gather it gets short-changed in that respect as well.

If you ask 9 out of 10 people to define "faith", most would probably give you an inadequate explanation.
 

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 10:01:12 am
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 


You just let them get enough numbers and they will start waging war against the infidel. That's how it works. (Ask Indonesia and every other Asian country were Islam has been allowed to prosper) So they want to build a mosque near ground zero? Fine, let them have it. So they want to instate communities under their own sharia laws? No f*cking hell no!! Secularism is the right way to go if they don't like it then they can go back to the middle east. As simple as that.

No. That's a load of sh*t, actually.

The asian nations have no tradition of democratic culture and, moreover, for the most part, have a cultural bias against the rights of the individual in favor of those of the family or group. There are millions of muslims in the USA right now, the vast majority of whom are simply living the same lives as everyone else.

Like any magical belief system, it depends on who's using it.

The "them" you're talking about is a massive and diverse group of people who you are judging solely by their most extreme and, frankly, nutty examples.

The KKK is a Christian organization; so is Christian Identity. Do you honestly feel like judging all Christians by their example? Because, when you use the extremes to define the whole, you're doing just that.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 01, 2010, 12:00:55 pm
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "N¡gger". Never been called that before. :o ;D
If he isnt saying anything new then the question is why would some still follow the faith is his point. No it doesnt come across as snide. It is a very serious question to be asked. And honestly most don't have the proper answer.
Bmore, What is a "Proper Answer" for a collective group of people? Every individual has their own answer. Not every one of them will be able to articulate the reason(s) to your/our satisfaction. We all can't write as well as Redjack :D. Personally, I used to be an Atheist, up until about 10 years ago. What brought me into Christianity? No one particular thing or event, that would make sense to you/anyone else.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 01:11:09 pm
I'm not an atheist. I just don't believe in magic.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 01, 2010, 01:31:38 pm
Bmore, What is a "Proper Answer" for a collective group of people? Every individual has their own answer. Not every one of them will be able to articulate the reason(s) to your/our satisfaction. We all can't write as well as Redjack :D. Personally, I used to be an Atheist, up until about 10 years ago. What brought me into Christianity? No one particular thing or event, that would make sense to you/anyone else.
That is my point there is no proper answer. You clarified it perfectly
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 01, 2010, 01:51:21 pm
I don't believe in magic either, just Christ
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 02:05:22 pm
Magic: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source - webster's dictionary
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on June 01, 2010, 02:25:54 pm
I'm not an atheist. I just don't believe in magic.



Magic is interesting from an imaginative point-of-view in fictional literature.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2010, 04:44:24 pm
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2010, 05:23:33 pm
No. That's a load of sh*t, actually.

The asian nations have no tradition of democratic culture and, moreover, for the most part, have a cultural bias against the rights of the individual in favor of those of the family or group. There are millions of muslims in the USA right now, the vast majority of whom are simply living the same lives as everyone else.

Like any magical belief system, it depends on who's using it.

The "them" you're talking about is a massive and diverse group of people who you are judging solely by their most extreme and, frankly, nutty examples.

The KKK is a Christian organization; so is Christian Identity. Do you honestly feel like judging all Christians by their example? Because, when you use the extremes to define the whole, you're doing just that.

No.. The them I'm talking about are the extremists that think the world has to be a Muslim world. And it all comes down to the ideology itself. Islam is the single religion that includes war as a way to spread its message. Buddhism doesn't Christianity doesn't not even Hinduism does it. Christ never talked about war neither did Prince Sidarta.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 05:34:11 pm
It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Christians have been murdering non-Christians for centuries based upon the words in that book and there's no way around it. Christians have a stranglehold on our political structure  in the US. Jews, Christians and Muslims have been kicking the crap out of each other over "the holy land" for nearly a thousand years now.

 By definition extremists don't have the numbers necessary to present the threat you seem to be worried about. Sure they can blow up a car or a building or even crash some planes but, in terms of bringing down an entire society?

Forget it.

if you want to combat this problem, if anyone really does, they have start from the position that all the world's faiths are basically equal. Because they are. Especially the Big Three as they all come from the same root.

And, just for the record, i was raised in a Buddhist and Episcopal household.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 01, 2010, 06:59:39 pm
It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Christians have been murdering non-Christians for centuries based upon the words in that book and there's no way around it.

It does matter and it does matter a lot. Those massacres done by Christians against non-Christians have no justification. They deviated from the teachings of Jesus in order to do it. No where in the bible does Jesus says to kill your enemy or to kill those who didn't listen to his teachings. While Mohamed expressly calls for the murder and/or enslavement of every single "infidel". The Japanese expressly created their own version of Buddhism so the Samurai could keep up killing people but nowhere else did Prince Siddhartha aka Buddha said it was OK to kill people. In other religions the fanatics just ignore stuff so they can justify their atrocities while in Islam they just have to follow the teachings of Mohamed. It is OK to kill non-Muslim for Mohamed said so, it is OK to be a pedophile since Mohamed was one. It is OK to force women and sexually harass them. It is OK to stone them to death if a large enough group of men decide to do so. You can kill your sister if you want. All those practices are sanctioned under Islam. Do you remember the part where Jesus said "He who's free of sin to toss the first stone"? Well as far as I know there's no equivalent in Islam.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 01, 2010, 07:46:34 pm
It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Christians have been murdering non-Christians for centuries based upon the words in that book and there's no way around it.

It does matter and it does matter a lot. Those massacres done by Christians against non-Christians have no justification. They deviated from the teachings of Jesus in order to do it. No where in the bible does Jesus says to kill your enemy or to kill those who didn't listen to his teachings. While Mohamed expressly calls for the murder and/or enslavement of every single "infidel". The Japanese expressly created their own version of Buddhism so the Samurai could keep up killing people but nowhere else did Prince Siddhartha aka Buddha said it was OK to kill people. In other religions the fanatics just ignore stuff so they can justify their atrocities while in Islam they just have to follow the teachings of Mohamed. It is OK to kill non-Muslim for Mohamed said so, it is OK to be a pedophile since Mohamed was one. It is OK to force women and sexually harass them. It is OK to stone them to death if a large enough group of men decide to do so. You can kill your sister if you want. All those practices are sanctioned under Islam. Do you remember the part where Jesus said "He who's free of sin to toss the first stone"? Well as far as I know there's no equivalent in Islam.

You're talking about these things as if they are more than just words. They aren't. The Bibles, the Torah, the various forms of Buddhism, the variants of Hinduism blah blah, NONE of it is more than words written by men (mostly men). According to Jesus' actual teachings, there are almost no Christians in the world. Nearly NONE of his "followers" do ANY of what he preached nor, it must be said, have they ever. So invoking the Bible as a superior document to the Koran, (which, by the way has not been edited unlike the other Big Books) is sort of Quixotic since Christians themselves mostly ignore its fundamental teachings. They can't even keep the stuff from the Sermon on the Mount straight.

Clearly it doesn't matter what Jesus actually said. Certainly not to the vast majority of "Christians."

Muhammed, by contrast to Jesus (a carpenter from an occupied province and a member, at best, of its tradesman class) was a merchant, fairly prosperous, who travelled the world and saw a great many things including the violence that exists in pretty much every human culture. The Koran reflects this but, as has been pointed out by MANY Muslim scholars, while ti does condone violence against the infidel, it also admonishes Muslims to convert via spreading the Word and to put away their swords in pretty much every situation.

Jihad means Struggle. That's it. It can be interpreted to mean physical battle or it can mean the struggle to follow Allah's commandments.

Yes, violence is on the table for Muslims but it hasn't made them MORE bloodthirsty than Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or anyone else.  

Indeed, there would be no western civilization without Islam. Zero. Considering their base documents, they've been remarkably restrained.

If there was an "army" of Christians actually walking the walk, yes, you would have a point to make but there isn't so you don't. What you have is a superiority complex that gets in the way when trying to have a real discussion about these things.

I wish Believers, just for one second, could sit in our shoes, those of us who live in the world that doesn't have Magic in it and have to watch them screaming and fighting and killing each other over what, to us, is a bunch of really great stories. It would be like watching Star Wars fans and Star trek fans murdering each other on sight.

There is no difference between these faiths.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 02, 2010, 06:04:03 am
Magic: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source - webster's dictionary

I don't believe in magic, just Christ - Kristopher M. Mosby
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 02, 2010, 06:07:12 am
It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Christians have been murdering non-Christians for centuries based upon the words in that book and there's no way around it.
Damn that Mother Theresa and her murdering ways!!!!!!!! ML King Jr., too
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 02, 2010, 06:42:10 am
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

C'mon dude! That's like saying that if some current military Aircraft flew fast enough to break the time barrier and appeared 2,000 years in the past, folks would think that the craft was "magic" simply because they have no knowledge/understanding of 21st century physics????
That's just crazy, man. They'd know it was science, the minute they saw it AND could explain, perfectly, what that aircraft was in about an hour or so. Nice try Francisco! Pick another quote, sir.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 02, 2010, 08:06:28 am
It doesn't matter what Jesus said. Christians have been murdering non-Christians for centuries based upon the words in that book and there's no way around it.
Damn that Mother Theresa and her murdering ways!!!!!!!! ML King Jr., too

Really? That's the best you've got?

You think it's was King's Christian-ness rather than, oh, his American-ness or his Human-ness that let him know that segregation was maybe a bad idea? Even if it was his Christian-ness, he doesn't represent the whole of Christianity any more than the guy who's running around shooting "abortion doctors" does.

IOW: you don't get to wear the gold medal just because Usain Bolt is black.

That's why I said things like "most" and "the vast majority." These phrases are to let you know that I don't mean the VERY few actual Chriatians who have showed up but rather the mass of so-called Christians who aren't.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 02, 2010, 08:52:22 am
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

C'mon dude! That's like saying that if some current military Aircraft flew fast enough to break the time barrier and appeared 2,000 years in the past, folks would think that the craft was "magic" simply because they have no knowledge/understanding of 21st century physics????
That's just crazy, man. They'd know it was science, the minute they saw it AND could explain, perfectly, what that aircraft was in about an hour or so. Nice try Francisco! Pick another quote, sir.

You're kidding, right?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 02, 2010, 09:20:34 am
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

C'mon dude! That's like saying that if some current military Aircraft flew fast enough to break the time barrier and appeared 2,000 years in the past, folks would think that the craft was "magic" simply because they have no knowledge/understanding of 21st century physics????
That's just crazy, man. They'd know it was science, the minute they saw it AND could explain, perfectly, what that aircraft was in about an hour or so. Nice try Francisco! Pick another quote, sir.

You're kidding, right?

Curtis, do you think for one minute, that if most people from, say, the 3rd century A.D. saw a working portable DVD player, they would be stupid enough to think it was magic?








Yeah, I'm kidding. Today's "magic" is tomorrow's science. 200 years ago Type 1 Diabetes was a death sentence, go back and give folks a shot of insulin, and your performing a "miracle". Most of us, today know the science behind the miracle, to past folks, it's unexplained, "magic". Why is it that when a small portion of transplant patients stop taking their immunosuppressants, the transplanted organ doesn't reject?. I don't know, no one knows. It's magic.....for now. :)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on June 02, 2010, 11:57:43 am
Yeah, I'm kidding. Today's "magic" is tomorrow's science.



That's an interesting thought...
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 02, 2010, 03:30:31 pm
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.

C'mon dude! That's like saying that if some current military Aircraft flew fast enough to break the time barrier and appeared 2,000 years in the past, folks would think that the craft was "magic" simply because they have no knowledge/understanding of 21st century physics????
That's just crazy, man. They'd know it was science, the minute they saw it AND could explain, perfectly, what that aircraft was in about an hour or so. Nice try Francisco! Pick another quote, sir.

You're kidding, right?

Curtis, do you think for one minute, that if most people from, say, the 3rd century A.D. saw a working portable DVD player, they would be stupid enough to think it was magic?








Yeah, I'm kidding. Today's "magic" is tomorrow's science. 200 years ago Type 1 Diabetes was a death sentence, go back and give folks a shot of insulin, and your performing a "miracle". Most of us, today know the science behind the miracle, to past folks, it's unexplained, "magic". Why is it that when a small portion of transplant patients stop taking their immunosuppressants, the transplanted organ doesn't reject?. I don't know, no one knows. It's magic.....for now. :)


No.

This is what people who don't understand science often say and it's not right.

There is a reason, a physical reason, that these people and others like them have "miraculous" recoveries and it's never, not even for one second, considered to be magical in nature. The things, the miracles described in the various bibles display not only a complete lack of ability to accurately observe the natural world but even to extrapolate from what can be observed certain basic facts.

The miracles in the bible will never be re-designated as scientific events because they aren't.  They are magic. Which is fine as far as it goes. Faith isn't about proof anyway.

But you don't get to substitute it for science or even put it in the same list. It's not.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 02, 2010, 04:42:42 pm
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke.


C'mon dude! That's like saying that if some current military Aircraft flew fast enough to break the time barrier and appeared 2,000 years in the past, folks would think that the craft was "magic" simply because they have no knowledge/understanding of 21st century physics????
That's just crazy, man. They'd know it was science, the minute they saw it AND could explain, perfectly, what that aircraft was in about an hour or so. Nice try Francisco! Pick another quote, sir.


You're kidding, right?


Curtis, do you think for one minute, that if most people from, say, the 3rd century A.D. saw a working portable DVD player, they would be stupid enough to think it was magic?








Yeah, I'm kidding. Today's "magic" is tomorrow's science. 200 years ago Type 1 Diabetes was a death sentence, go back and give folks a shot of insulin, and your performing a "miracle". Most of us, today know the science behind the miracle, to past folks, it's unexplained, "magic". Why is it that when a small portion of transplant patients stop taking their immunosuppressants, the transplanted organ doesn't reject?. I don't know, no one knows. It's magic.....for now. :)



No.

This is what people who don't understand science often say and it's not right.

There is a reason, a physical reason, that these people and others like them have "miraculous" recoveries and it's never, not even for one second, considered to be magical in nature. The things, the miracles described in the various bibles display not only a complete lack of ability to accurately observe the natural world but even to extrapolate from what can be observed certain basic facts.

The miracles in the bible will never be re-designated as scientific events because they aren't.  They are magic. Which is fine as far as it goes. Faith isn't about proof anyway.

But you don't get to substitute it for science or even put it in the same list. It's not.


Okay Geoff, I DO understand science, my wife works closely with the Director of The National Human Genome Center at Howard University (http://www.genomecenter.howard.edu/units/molecular_gen/default.htm). I started as a Biology major before I switch to my calling...Art. I also tutor my daughters and their friends in Math, so you're not the only "science buff" in these parts.. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek here, because it's just not that serious imho! In 1998, I was in a head on collision (compact car), jaws of life, the whole 9 yards, according to "Scientists" at Maryland Shock Trauma,  I should be dead, all I have is a very slight limp. A hundred years from now, science may be able to explain it, but for now, it's a friggin' a miracle! Christ walked on water, but we now have "scientific" reasons to explain how this may have been accomplished. "Thixotropy" anyone?

We'll just have to agree to disagree, bro.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 02, 2010, 08:02:03 pm
Then you should know better. There is no such thing as a miracle. Good fortune does not = miracle. Just as bad fortune doesn't =  demon attack.

Just as some of us are born with broken bits of DNA, sabotaging any part of us from brain to toenails, so there are those of us born with superior DNA, people who can fight off "terminal" illness and injury, live past a century while smoking and drinking, etc. There is no supernatural intervention possible because there is nothing outside of nature. Nature is another word for Reality.

Maybe your mind needs it to be a miracle because that makes you feel better. Magical thinking is certainly not restricted to people without scientific training. What you've espoused, the magic depicted in the Bible as some sort of hyper-advanced technology, is not only anti-Christian (God don't use tech. He just wants it to happen and it does.) it has been the basis for a stack of scifi novels and stories for decades. No.

The point of this isn't to mock Christianity; it's to point out to you and others that you don't have the moral high ground to point the finger at Islam.  A lot of beautiful stuff has come out of Christianity. But not MORE stuff than from Islam. And a lot of ugly stuff has come from it too. Just not LESS than from Islam. Much much more, in fact. You're all the same is the point. Exactly the same. If you start from that position, you'll get further on the journey.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 03, 2010, 05:06:18 am
it's to point out to you and others that you don't have the moral high ground to point the finger at Islam.

Hold Up, you must be referring to another "you", because I've done no such thing. Not here or anywhere else!!!!! I wasn't raised that way, pal. Perhaps you need to get off your "Moral high ground".

Done with this!
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 03, 2010, 07:53:21 am
Then why were you arguing? The only position I took was "you're all the same." You seemed to take that as an insult and we've had a couple pages of argument as a result.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 04, 2010, 06:32:10 pm
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 

It is an issue to the Jihadists and to those who sympathize with them.  A titty bar is not a victory for Islam (in their eyes).  A Fundamentalist Islamic Mosque at Ground Zero certainly is.

They will have achieved a victory here.  This is how it will be seen.

Just as they achieve a victory every time a writer or producer or network or publisher censors references to Muhammad or Mecca or Islam for fear of being subjected to a fatwa of death. (See the discussion of not portraying the destruction of Mecca in the film "2012" or the censorship of the Muhammad satire in South Park, a frickin' television cartoon show). We are psychologically subjugated already. More so in Europe, but here in the States as well. 

My purpose for citing the fundamentalist views of the Imam in question and his family connections to the Muslim Brotherhood was to give a sense of where he is coming from. 

I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed worldwide by Muslim Extremists today, in the name of Islam. 
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 05, 2010, 07:18:06 am
Guess I'm just too indoctrinated in that whole American idea of freedom of religious expression.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 05, 2010, 11:45:38 am
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 

It is an issue to the Jihadists and to those who sympathize with them.  A titty bar is not a victory for Islam (in their eyes).  A Fundamentalist Islamic Mosque at Ground Zero certainly is.

They will have achieved a victory here.  This is how it will be seen.

Just as they achieve a victory every time a writer or producer or network or publisher censors references to Muhammad or Mecca or Islam for fear of being subjected to a fatwa of death. (See the discussion of not portraying the destruction of Mecca in the film "2012" or the censorship of the Muhammad satire in South Park, a frickin' television cartoon show). We are psychologically subjugated already. More so in Europe, but here in the States as well. 

My purpose for citing the fundamentalist views of the Imam in question and his family connections to the Muslim Brotherhood was to give a sense of where he is coming from. 

I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed worldwide by Muslim Extremists today, in the name of Islam. 
I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed nationwide by groups/people like the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Brotherhood and Dick Cheney, in the name of Christianity.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 05, 2010, 03:16:56 pm
We are psychologically subjugated already.

No. I don't think we are.   

Quote
I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed worldwide by Muslim Extremists today, in the name of Islam. 

No. We simply don't conflate a bunch of violent nutjobs with the faith they claim to espouse.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 06, 2010, 01:02:13 am
No. We simply don't conflate a bunch of violent nutjobs with the faith they claim to espouse.

They do. So do millions of their supporters worldwide. Just ask the leadership of the Islamic Republic of Iran, if you have any doubt in that regard.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 06, 2010, 01:06:29 am
I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed nationwide by groups/people like the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Brotherhood and Dick Cheney, in the name of Christianity.

And what kind of global support is there for the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood?  Do they have tens of millions of supporters and sympathizers worldwide, who drink their hate speech like milk from their mother's breast, and proclaim them heroes? 

The KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood are viewed by virtually everyone as deraged sick losers. They are not seen as representatives of Christianity.

What major acts of terrorism have been perpetrated in the past decade by Christians worldwide, in the name of Christianity?  I think the only incident one might cite is the killing of the abortionist, and that action was roundly condemned by virtually everyone (including by Christian pro-life activists).

As to Cheney ... now he's in the league with the KKK and the Aryan Brotherood?  What are you smokin?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 06, 2010, 05:04:22 am
No. We simply don't conflate a bunch of violent nutjobs with the faith they claim to espouse.

They do. So do millions of their supporters worldwide. Just ask the leadership of the Islamic Republic of Iran, if you have any doubt in that regard.

For the sake of argument, say that's so. And therefore, what?

You seem to be suggesting that we should compromise one of our fundamental principles because we're worried about the impression it will make on some extremists who already hate us. To me, that would be psychological submission.

Now I don't really think that's what you mean, just how it seems. I would like to hear your clarification if you're willing.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 06, 2010, 09:05:20 am
I am simply pointing out the consequences of building a fundamentalist mosque at the site of the World Trade Center attack.  It is the denial of those consequences that saddens me, because such denial reveals how psychologically subordinated we really have become.  

Now, if the City of NY would not have to give permission for the erection of such a structure, or any other $100 million structure, if the structure has any religious affiliation, then that answers the question.  If any citizen or organization has a "fundamental right" to build a massive house of worship anywhere they wish, that answers the question.  Whatever the procedures for approval are, I don't think they should be any different because we are dealing with a mosque vs. a church or synagogue, though I do wonder if approval for the construction of a large church or synagogue would be automatic. If so, that answers the question as well.

My personal view is that if the Muslim organization owns the underlying property, it has a right to do with it as it pleases, so long as it engages legal activities, complies with zoning and all building requirements.  That doesn't take away from the fact of how this will be perceived by the jihadists worldwide.  We need to keep our eyes wide open.

And of course, if people choose to protest the fundamentalist mosque at the site of Ground Zero, that is their exercise of their fundamental right as well.  Because while it may be permitted, I can also understand why it would upset people who lost loved ones and friends.  People talk about showing "sensitivity" to others ... but it seems to be a one way street.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 06, 2010, 09:55:01 am
One way street?  It seems your Tea Party friends express themselves quite frequently and get a quite a bit of news coverage when they do.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 06, 2010, 10:51:52 am
Quote
I am simply pointing out the consequences of building a fundamentalist mosque at the site of the World Trade Center attack.  It is the denial of those consequences that saddens me, because such denial reveals how psychologically subordinated we really have become.
What is the difference of building a massive church in the middle of this same area? I can bet that there wouldnt be any animosity at all towards the construction of it. Building the mosque should be viewed as a good thing because the leaders of muslim faith want to demonstrate that they are attempting to separate themselves from those 19 men. Once again this country is placing over a billion believers of the muslim faith as terrorists based on 19 MEN 19 MEN!!

It didn't help that Hollywood and the news outlet have negative images of Muslims for decades. It demonstrates the arrogance of of christian leaders and believers.


A number of attacks or incidents that happened on US soil was automatically assumed to be of Muslim jihadists: Oklahoma City. "US Govt sources say that it has Middle Eastern terrorism written all over it" Are you sh*tting me. 15 years ago ladies and gents. I would love to have audio of rush limbaugh at this time. There is actual footage out there floating.


I don't remember the others but my point is that we are in a dangerous path in this country. It isn't fair on what is happening to these people of the Muslim faith. I now have a stronger sympathy since I was dating a woman following the faith this past summer.



Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 06, 2010, 01:38:13 pm
I find it interesting the extent some jump through hoops to turn a blind eye to the horrors committed nationwide by groups/people like the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Brotherhood and Dick Cheney, in the name of Christianity.


And what kind of global support is there for the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood? 

(http://www.whiteknightseuropa.de/grafics/pics/ImpKludd.jpg)
http://www.whiteknightseuropa.de/ImpKludd.html
Now, I don't speak or read Nazi, but those look like...Bible verses on that flier. Anyone know for sure?

Do they have tens of millions of supporters and sympathizers worldwide, who drink their hate speech like milk from their mother's breast, and proclaim them heroes?

Don't know how many. Would you like to volunteer to do a head count? I'd go, but you know, the whole..."n¡gger/mud people" thing and all.


What major acts of terrorism have been perpetrated in the past decade by Christians worldwide, in the name of Christianity?

The unprovoked attack against Iraq.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 07, 2010, 07:19:57 pm
Reginald, your comment has nothing to do with Jihadists intimidating Western writers, movie producers, publishers, television networks, and the like, with these writers (etc) immediately caving to the threats (or caving in advance to the feared threats that they know will arise).  That we accept this intimidation as sickening, in revealing the extent to which these tactics are successful in stifling free expression (in the United States and of course in Europe).  And here, I'm not talking about "stifling" general anti-Muslim bigotry (which we all oppose) but rather stifling the condemnation of the bigotry and sexism and hate inherent in radical Islam, or just intimidating those engaged in satire (as in "South Park"), or even banning innocent portrayals (like the destruction of Mecca NOT portrayed in "2012" along with the destruction of the Vatican).  Of course not everyone is intimidated, but many are - particularly those who would normally be inclined to stand up against bigotry and hatred, but who are now afraid that they themselves we be accused of the same and be threatened with dire consequences.

It is certainly "one-sided" when Muslim activists demand "sensitivity" (often as a pretense for demanding the censorship of those they disagree with) while they show no sensitivity to the victims of 9/11.  Because, truthfully, a large mosque could be constructed anywhere in N.Y. (and there are many many mosques already in N.Y.).  The purpose for a massive fundamentalist mosque, at this site, is to create an international "statement" ... and the message is a troubling one. It is the fulfillment of jihadist ideology. Destruction of the Twin Towers symbolizing the corrupt West, to be replaced with a fundamentalist Islamic Mosque.

Which is not to say that our First Amendment should in any way be compromised (as I explained above).  Just suggesting we keep our eyes wide open. 

Also, I imagine a fair argument can be made that the site of the World Trade Center attack should represent "ground zero" for all New Yorkers and all Americans and should not be allowed to become a place exploited by any single faith.  On that basis, a reasonable argument can be made that no major house of worship of any single faith should be permitted on those grounds, because of the unique character of that site.  Whether the City would be legally permitted to make such a determination is something that one would need to look into; though it is clear that religious groups are not permitted to build major structures anyplace they choose.  This might, however, require that the surrounding land be acquired by the public.  In any event, this question is hypothetical, since the City immediately approved the mosque project. Nor am I sure how I would decide the issue, were it entirely up to me, as I do respect private property rights, and thus (absent public condemnation and acquisition of the property) I tend to be wary of Government restrictions on the use of private property.

BmoreAkuma, as to expressions of bigotry (like those of radio talk show host Mark Williams, that started this thread) there is no legitimate place for the expression of those kinds of ignorant bigoted sentiments, period. Honestly, were he a leftist plant, he could not do a better job in undermining those who express legitimate concerns regarding Islamic extremism. There are plenty of Muslims who do not embrace the same form of fundamentalist Islam embraced by the Jihadists.  Of course to paint them all with one broad brush would be terribly unfair. As I've commented before, one way to combat bigotry is to think of people you are fond of, who belong to the targeted group, and no doubt you will be repulsed by the bigotry, even if you are not a member of that group. 

It is unfortunate that the Jihadist ideology is derived from a religion, as opposed to being a "mere" secular ideology of hate and oppression (like Fascism or Nazism or Communism), and that it does have widespread support world wide. I wish that were not the case, but it is. But of course one should never taint all Muslims with the pronouncements and actions of a significant/influential minority, as there are many strains of Islam out there. It is just that some are today better funded than others, in large part due to Saudi wealth and Iranian influence.  Those "19 Men" who took down the Twin Towers were soldiers for an Ideology and a Movement that is very much out there, very powerful and influential -- an alliance of similary-minded Muslim extremists, crossing Sunni and Shi'ite lines (notwithstanding their "internal" ideological differences), united against the West. 

While these fundamentalists do NOT by any means represent the whole of Islam, they do derive their ideology from respected Islamic sources, dating back to the time of Muhammad and thereafter, with clerical scholarly support for their world view.  From an "Islamic perspective" they are not a bunch of "crackpots" who are distorting or hijacking "true Islam."... rather, they represent a very real strain of Islamic thinking.  Which is why they are almost never referred to as apostates, by those who disagree with them. Though again, there are of course other more tolerant and open strains of Islamic thought as well (that are, as it so happens, condemned by the fundamentalists), and thus one cannot assume that just because someone is a Muslim that he or she embraces the ideology of radical Islam.     

But one should not dismiss the threat either, by equating Muslim extremists with, for example, contemporary devout Christians.

All I am suggesting is that we not delude ourselves with wishful thinking.  The world simply isn't as we would like it to be.

Kristopher: Finding some stupid-ass neo-Nazi, Skinhead or KKK site in a foreign language (German) only shows that there are German fringe groups.  Nobody in their right mind would claim that the international level of support for such nutjobs in any way parallels the massive level of global support for "radical Islam."  Nor would anyone in their right mind claim that these fringe racist and antisemitic groups in any way represent Christianity or are viewed by any meaningful segment of people as representing true Christianity. The same is clearly not true in the case of radical Islam, where very large numbers of people do hold it to be the true expression of their Faith.

(Oh, and by the way, Cheney was not portraying himself as a soldier for "true" Christianity, so any comparison of him to the Jihadists is wholly invalid - even if one believes the war in Iraq was unjustified).

It is odd that I'm the one defending Christianity on the HEF, but hey, someone's gotta be fair here. 

Anyway, there's nothing more for me to say on this topic, without repeating myself.  You know my position on the issue.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 09, 2010, 07:57:17 am
Ran across this.  Relevant to our discussion. See comments by Tavis Smiley in his interview of Hirsi Ali.  Smiley was doing somersaults though hoops of self-delusion and denial, in equating Christianity with Radical Islam in order to minimize the threat posed by the latter.

For the full text of the article, you can click the link.

June 4, 2010 | 2:02 pm
Tavis Smiley and Willful Ignorance
Posted by Joe R. Hicks
http://www.jewishjournal.com/thewideangle/item/tavis_smiley_and_willful_ignorance_20100604/

However, Smiley wasn’t in the mood to hear Hirsi Ali’s critical views of extremist Islam.  He seemed intent on asserting the shop-worn and politically-correct notion that Islam is always and everywhere “a religion of peace.”

Apparently irritated with Hirsi Ali’s contention that radical Islam poses a danger far more serious than other world religions, the left-leaning Smiley said:

“I guess I’m trying to understand where the evidence is that suggests that all of us who happen to be Christians or enlightened in some way need to take on Muslims here in the West.”

Looking incredulous, Hirsi Ali patiently forged ahead:

“Okay, I think first and foremost what we have to acknowledge is we’re not going to get a monster with horns, blue in the face, looking like a dragon called jihad coming in and terrorizing us.  The people engaged in terrorist activities look like you and me.  They look like everybody else here.  Major Nidal Hasan, the military guy who in November shot 13 of his colleagues and injured 32 … the young man, Faisal Shahzad, in Times Square who tried to blow innocent people he didn’t know up, these guys are acting on conviction.  Somehow, the idea got into their minds that to kill other people is a great thing to do and that they would be rewarded in the hereafter.”

Now appearing even more agitated, Smiley says to Hirsi Ali:

“But Christians do that every single day in this country.”

Hirsi Ali responds with:

“Do they blow people up?”

Not content with making a completely baseless argument, Smiley stuck his foot even deeper in his mouth:

“Yes, Oh, Christians, every day, people walk into post offices, they walk into schools, that’s what Columbine is – I could do this all day long … There are so many more examples, Ayaan, of Christians who do that than you could ever give me examples of Muslims who have done that inside this country, where you live and work.”

Realizing finally that she’s got a clueless television show host on her hands, Ali simply replies:

“Well, I think you and I disagree …”

The sweeping ignorance, or political blindness, of Smiley’s claims that “… Christians (commit acts of terror) every single day in this country” is nothing short of jaw-dropping.

Unlike Islam, present day interpretation of Judeo-Christian scripture does not guarantee Paradise to those who kill in the name of their faith.  However, the Koran does offer the fruits of Paradise to those who kill for Allah.  Suicide bombers have been lured to their deaths with the promise, and the offer, that they will be free from the fires of hell if they kill an infidel and, in the process, die.

However the attempt to establish a moral equivalency between the acts of Islamic jihadists and Christian fundamentalists is hardly new.  Rosie O’Donnell, a former host on ABC’s “The View,” once argued that “Radical Christianity is just as dangerous as radical Islam.”  Now, a supposedly more thoughtful Tavis Smiley has wondered into the same intellectual weeds.

Smiley’s smear of Christians was so appalling that Michael Getler, the PBS Ombudsman, issued a statement taking issue with what Smiley had said.  In a decidedly understated way, Getler’s statement in part said, “I don’t think he (Smiley) made his case.”  Getler noted that the only example Smiley offered of Christian terrorism was the Columbine shootings, which he rightly said, “had nothing to do with Christianity.”

Especially disgusting is Smiley’s attempt to somehow transform the actions of the two punks who shot 13 of their fellow students to death in the 2000 Columbine massacre into an act of “Christian terror.”  Apparently Smiley’s among the rare individuals who have managed to forget that the Columbine killers thought that it was a big joke that some of their victims pleaded for God to save them – before shooting them.

The bottom line is this: Tavis Smiley showed that he’s incapable of approaching a serious and complex topic like Islamic extremism with intellectual openness and curiosity.

Instead, he chose to play fast and loose with the facts and slander seventy-five percent of the American population who identify as Christians.  If that wasn’t bad enough, he also lost a battle of wits with and insulted a woman whose life bears the scars of Islam and its connection to terror.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 09, 2010, 11:47:37 am
You have issues, Michael.

It is, quite frankly, unAmerican to smear an entire faith based upon the actions of a tiny subset of extremists. What the loony jihadists have done is a drop in the bucket compared to the crimes of Christians over the course of this nation's history. Not even a blip on that radar and everyone here, Christian or not, knows that history pretty damned well. Intimately I might say.

Smiley is not my favorite person. I think he's egotistical, self-aggrandizing and, frankly nowhere near as bright as he thinks he is, but, on this score, he's got it right.

What you'd like is to pit American's sense of american-ness (freedom of worship, of ideas) versus their [mostly] Christian-ness such that they line-up with you against Islam. It ain't gonna happen. Not with black people anyway. WAY too much evidence to keep it from happening.

And, by the way, I don't know this for sure but I'd be willing to bet a few hundred bucks that Smiley is, himself, a Christian. Last I checked, you can't slander yourself.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 09, 2010, 01:13:47 pm
I'll just repeat what I said.

this country is placing over a billion believers of the muslim faith as terrorists based on 19 MEN



Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 09, 2010, 04:12:16 pm
I'll just repeat what I said.

this country is placing over a billion believers of the muslim faith as terrorists based on 19 MEN





If you believe that, then you either have a short memory or you're too young to remember the Oklahoma City bombing. Even after McVeigh was arrested and the government identified two white males as perpetrators, CNN's Wolf Blitzer insisted that "there is still a possibility that there could have been some sort of connection to Middle East terrorism. One law enforcement source tells me that there's a possibility that they (the Caucasian suspects) may have been contracted out as freelancers to go out and rent this truck that was used in the bombing."
A lot of people seemed to agree with this media speculation. Within two days after the Oklahoma City bombing, there were hundreds of recorded instances of harassment and hate crimes against Muslims, Arabs, Iraqis, people who appeared to be Muslims, and Muslim organizations and buildings. Two days after the explosion, Timothy McVeigh was arrested. But the anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, and anti- Iraqi attacks continued for weeks.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 09, 2010, 04:29:36 pm
Not only did the slave trade occur without universal protest of the Christian Church, one of the rationalizations for it was they were introducing these savages to Christ.  And the Christians who did object were hated. 
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 09, 2010, 04:34:17 pm
Not only did the slave trade occur without universal protest of the Christian Church, one of the rationalizations for it was they were introducing these savages to Christ.  And the Christians who did object were hated. 
Muslims in Africa still have slaves.. Dharfur anyone???
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 09, 2010, 05:07:16 pm
If you believe that, then you either have a short memory or you're too young to remember the Oklahoma City bombing. Even after McVeigh was arrested and the government identified two white males as perpetrators, CNN's Wolf Blitzer insisted that "there is still a possibility that there could have been some sort of connection to Middle East terrorism. One law enforcement source tells me that there's a possibility that they (the Caucasian suspects) may have been contracted out as freelancers to go out and rent this truck that was used in the bombing."
A lot of people seemed to agree with this media speculation. Within two days after the Oklahoma City bombing, there were hundreds of recorded instances of harassment and hate crimes against Muslims, Arabs, Iraqis, people who appeared to be Muslims, and Muslim organizations and buildings. Two days after the explosion, Timothy McVeigh was arrested. But the anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, and anti- Iraqi attacks continued for weeks.
actually I posted a point about that earlier in the thread.

Quote
I am simply pointing out the consequences of building a fundamentalist mosque at the site of the World Trade Center attack.  It is the denial of those consequences that saddens me, because such denial reveals how psychologically subordinated we really have become.
What is the difference of building a massive church in the middle of this same area? I can bet that there wouldnt be any animosity at all towards the construction of it. Building the mosque should be viewed as a good thing because the leaders of muslim faith want to demonstrate that they are attempting to separate themselves from those 19 men. Once again this country is placing over a billion believers of the muslim faith as terrorists based on 19 MEN 19 MEN!!

It didn't help that Hollywood and the news outlet have negative images of Muslims for decades. It demonstrates the arrogance of of christian leaders and believers.


A number of attacks or incidents that happened on US soil was automatically assumed to be of Muslim jihadists: Oklahoma City. "US Govt sources say that it has Middle Eastern terrorism written all over it" Are you sh*tting me. 15 years ago ladies and gents. I would love to have audio of rush limbaugh at this time. There is actual footage out there floating.


I don't remember the others but my point is that we are in a dangerous path in this country. It isn't fair on what is happening to these people of the Muslim faith. I now have a stronger sympathy since I was dating a woman following the faith this past summer.

See
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 09, 2010, 06:29:08 pm
Not only did the slave trade occur without universal protest of the Christian Church, one of the rationalizations for it was they were introducing these savages to Christ.  And the Christians who did object were hated. 
Muslims in Africa still have slaves.. Dharfur anyone???

The global slave trade is supported by americans, europeans, asians, africans, south americans and, i'll bet, not a few australians.

Being Muslim is not a factor. Being a bastard is.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 09, 2010, 08:16:05 pm



Being Muslim is not a factor. Being a bastard is.



And this fundamental truth is why your argument is so wrong and irritating, Michael.  Asshole knows no race, creed or color.  But you keep trying act otherwise.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 09, 2010, 09:13:37 pm
See previous post about Christianity as a justification for the trans Atlantic slave trade.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 10, 2010, 12:05:51 am
See previous post about Christianity as a justification for the trans Atlantic slave trade.

Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade:  Last time I checked, it does not exist in the 21st Century, nor for that matter did it exist in the 20th, nor in most of the 19th. We are having this conversation on June 9, 2010, not June 9, 1800.

Reginald, we are talking about contemporary Christianity and contemporary Islam today.

I am not bashing "all Muslims" as Redjack suggests.  I am simply stating the fact that there is a very real strain of Islam that exists in the real world in the 21st Century (call it what you will), wildly popular among a large number of people, that is motivating the jihadist activities, terrorist acts, fatwas, intimidation (and the like) around the world, and that strain is very narrow, very bigoted, very sexist, very totalitarian, and very aggressive. It is a radical ideology, just as Nazism was an ideology and Communism was an ideology. And yes, vicious ideologies can foster vicious conduct. 

In response, you resort to pulling some reference to how some Christians justified the slave trade over 200 years ago. Is it your position that large numbers of Christians in 2010 are advocating reestablishment of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade? If you don't know how irrelevant your comment is to the world we live in today ...

Well, you've rendered me speechless.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 10, 2010, 12:14:21 am
Oh, I didn't know there was statue of limitations on hard feelings about kidnapping, rape, slavery and murder.  Is 200 years the limit?  Or is 50 years enough?  Because maybe we should let that whole Holocaust thing go too. 

Great goods and great evils have been done in the name of religion.  So maybe, maybe it's not the religion, but the people who are good or evil. 
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 10, 2010, 01:46:13 am
See previous post about Christianity as a justification for the trans Atlantic slave trade.

Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade:  Last time I checked, it does not exist in the 21st Century, nor for that matter did it exist in the 20th, nor in most of the 19th. We are having this conversation on June 9, 2010, not June 9, 1800.

Reginald, we are talking about contemporary Christianity and contemporary Islam today.

I am not bashing "all Muslims" as Redjack suggests.  I am simply stating the fact that there is a very real strain of Islam that exists in the real world in the 21st Century (call it what you will), wildly popular among a large number of people, that is motivating the jihadist activities, terrorist acts, fatwas, intimidation (and the like) around the world, and that strain is very narrow, very bigoted, very sexist, very totalitarian, and very aggressive. It is a radical ideology, just as Nazism was an ideology and Communism was an ideology. And yes, vicious ideologies can foster vicious conduct.  

In response, you resort to pulling some reference to how some Christians justified the slave trade over 200 years ago. Is it your position that large numbers of Christians in 2010 are advocating reestablishment of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade? If you don't know how irrelevant your comment is to the world we live in today ...

Well, you've rendered me speechless.

We don't need to look so far back as that. All we need do is watch the 700 CLUB and look into the ongoing attempts by a LARGE number of CHRISTIANS to roll back the advances, both social and scientific, made by secular thinkers. WE can look at the Promise Keepers and the Straight Edge movement, both neo-fascistic, both entirely homegrown and both fairly large in number. We can look at modern evangelicals, not all certainly, but a significant number who believe in and work towards the goal of the Chrsitan church melding with our government and imposing their version of Sharia Law on the rest of us, including you my non-Christian friend.

And I could go on of PAGES about the radical Right Wing Chrisitian in the USA. Collectively they are a much bigger and much scarier threat than the measely population of extreme jihadists will ever be.

And, as I said earlier, what the hell makes you think the slave trade ever stopped? It's practiced on every continent, in every nation, by christians, buddhists, muslims, jews, atheists, shintoists, taoists and at least one of everybody else. Women are involved in the buying and selling of women. Blacks sell blacks, asians sell asians, whites sell whites etc. Should I pick a Faith or ethnicity at random and judge the whole by the example of these scumbags? No.

Faith may be the focal rallying point for these nutjobs but they are NUTJOBS. If it wasn't Faith it would be something else. The class and economic distinctions in the rest of the world are like something out of Orwell and nowhere more so than in the Middle East. You think all those Western companies pumping oil out of the desert, supporting and enriching a brutal overclass and leaving nearly nothing for the rest of the population is going to breed happiness to see an American or a Brit? I know Africans who can't hear the words Belgium or France without spitting on the ground. And rightly so.

If you're going to be this worked up and have this conversation, pay attention to the REAL factors that lead to fundamentalism both here and abroad. usually it boils down to a lack of options. And, if I'm smart enough to understand who took my options away, you can bet I'm going to be pretty pissed off at them.

Obviously, it's not Faith. It's a really aggressive case of low self-esteem and napoleonic complex mixed with legitimate rage about a host of injustices. Those loonies hate us because we won and their former greatness is LONG gone. If you think, absent Islam, that they wouldn't still hate the West for what both they and we did to their former glory, you aren't paying attention.

And out of that mix come a few crazies.

In a population of over seven billion humans, you sort of have to expect that some of us are going to have some bad wiring.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 10, 2010, 07:52:20 am
Oh, I didn't know there was statue of limitations on hard feelings about kidnapping, rape, slavery and murder.  Is 200 years the limit?  Or is 50 years enough?  Because maybe we should let that whole Holocaust thing go too.  

Great goods and great evils have been done in the name of religion.  So maybe, maybe it's not the religion, but the people who are good or evil.  

If this thread were a discussion of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, it would be fine to bring up the various rationales that people used to justify it (even though their primary motivation was obviously to turn a profit, with no concern for the suffering imposed in the process).  This would include the religious justifications some used.  Justifications that have been wholly rejected by all Christians today (except perhaps some minuscule racist fringe groups that are so disregarded that they are not part of the picture of Christianity today). The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade has nothing to do with contemporary Christianity.

A person who blows himself up in pizza shop, killing scores of innocent people (including our friend's daughter), or blows himself up in a truck next to a building, killing hundreds of people, or flies jet aircraft into two towers in New York, killing thousands of people, is motivated by an ideology. They do not profit from their act. They die. With the promise of eternal reward.  It just so happens that their ideology is a religious one. I wish it were not.  But it is.  All Muslims do not embrace this ideology, this fundamentalist strain of Islam, but some, a meaningful number, do, with clerics providing scholarly justification, relying on sources in the Kur'an, the Hadith (respected recordations of Muhammad's statements), and subsequent Islamic sources.  Unlike Christianity during Christ's time, Islam was originally spread by Muhammad (and his successors) in part by warfare, through jihad, not just through gentle persuasion. To deny this is to deny historical reality. Which is why the scholars who embrace radical Islam have source material to point to (though there are, of course, other ways to interprete that material, as reflected in the more open and tolerant strains of Islamic thought).

Furthermore, in response to Redjack's point, some of those who have engaged in suicidal terrorist acts are relatively affluent and well educated, not desperate or poor.  The 911 hijackers are an example of this. As is Major Hasan.

Not all Muslims today embrace this fundamentalist strain of Islam. I would posit that the majority do not. There are beautiful mystical traditions in Islam, and beautiful sentiments to care for the poor, the widow, and the orphan, for example. But to deny that radical Islam exists, and to deny that it exists today as a contemporary ideology, is to deny reality itself.  Even Redjack does not deny that it exists.  He posits reasons why someone might find the ideology appealing, but he does not deny that it exists. If you wish to call them "nutjobs" that is fine ... but there are tens of millions of such nutjobs in the world today. Some of them run governments. One is on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons. Reginald, your denial that this ideology exists is an example of one elevating his own wishes, his own personal ideology, over the facts before his very eyes.

Oh, Redjack, and the last time I checked, nobody from the 700 Club flew an airplane into an office tower or blew himself up in a pizza shop, to kill innocent people, or ordered the execution of an author who wrote a book the host didn't like.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 10, 2010, 08:05:27 am
Doesn't seem like you're going to hear this point EVER.  So I'm done.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 10, 2010, 08:23:42 am
Doesn't seem like you're going to hear this point EVER.  So I'm done.

So am I.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 10, 2010, 08:33:52 am
I'm only continuing this so you don't think you made points that stopped the conversation, Michael.

You live in a state of fear of these people and I don't. There are a BILLION muslims in the world. A seventh of the world's population. There are NOT tens of millions of them willing to kill or die to bring down the "great satan." If there were we would already be engaged in a conflict bloody enough to make WW2 look like a street gang squabble from the 1950s.

Your fear of the president of Iran is ludicrous. He has NO POWER. he is a figure-head. Nothing he says, good or ill, not one thing, matters. The fact that people continue to trot out his rants as if they have real world meaning is just an Orwellian manipulation of public sentiment. Iran isn't going to nuke anyone. They would instantly be obliterated if they did and they know it. They know it the same as that idiot freak in North Korea and he is a LOT more likely to do something stupid.

The biggest worry over a  nuclear strike happening and spinning out into a war comes from the conflict between India and Pakistan. It's Muslims vs Hindus, yes, but, in that case, the bad feelings originate from the crappy treatment the muslims got at the hands of the hindus for centuries when the two countries were one. That treatment is precisely why there is a Pakistan in the first place. Now it's a lot of sabre-rattling and stupid posturing but it COULD erupt. That is what a real threat looks like.

Iran is NOT going to go that route. They simply have too much to lose.

Meanwhile we continue to prop up repressive governments all over the world, those that serve the economic interests of multinational corporations. We continue to turn a blind eye to the narcotics traffic that is largely sustained by demand in the USA and which also creates the sort of oppression in the world that no one here can really conceive.

Let me put it to you this way: in the last 100 years, American Christian terrorists have killed and/or mutilated more Americans than Muslim terrorists  by a wide margin. Over the last 200 years it becomes something so hideous it's not even worth mentioning. Christianity was also spread by the sword, Michael. And so, according to your own documents, was your faith. Ask the Canaanites. Oh, wait. We can't. All dead. I'm not being flip here. But, if you're pointing the finger, you'd better learn to have a more objective eye about where you're pointing it from.

And yet no laws have been enacted to restrict the movements of Christians. No war has been declared on their Faith. No one is truly nervous that the loonies will take over the shop (even though they used to run it), not because they don't want to, not because they aren't trying every day to do so, but because, at the end of that day, we are watching them and we are more numerous.

The same is true for the Muslim loonies.

Live in fear if you want, Michael, but be fearful of the right stuff and watchful over the real enemies.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 11, 2010, 07:47:02 am
In the United States, the significant majority of hate crimes and incidents directed against members of a religious faith are directed against Jews, not Muslims. Feel free to look up the statistics. Our Government, from the days after 9/11 to the Present, has made great efforts not to paint all Muslims with the "Radical Islamist" brush, and to vigorously condemn hate crimes and incidents directed against Muslims.

I really wonder if other people on the Forum agree that Radical Islam (or Islamofascism or Fundamentalist Islam or Islamism or whatever name one wishes to call it) is an imagined threat, notwithstanding 9/11 and the numerous other attempts at terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad, some successful, many others not.

As to Redjack's characterization of Judaism: From its inception, Judaism has never been about conversion of all people to the faith. Sure, 3,200 years ago there was a war to conquer the Land of Israel.  Limited to the Land of Israel. Not global conquest. For more than 2,000 years Jewish tradition and philosophy has evolved in an environment where Jews were dispersed and usually persecuted (to one degree or another), developing an inward-focus and an emphasis on scholarship. As to Christianity: Jesus was no temporal government leader, he was a spiritual leader. He championed no armies, he conquered no territory. What was done later, in the name of Christianity, had more to do with the Roman Empire (that for political reasons adopted Christianity as the State Religion), and its successors.  Though I won't deny that looking back, terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity unconnected to the actual faith as preached by Jesus. But what is relevant in 2010 is Christianity as it exists today, not as it existed centuries ago. Attempts to equate Radical Islam with contemporary Christianity represent nothing but a whitewash.

Islam, from inception to nearly the present, represented a melding of Faith and Empire. The unity of Mosque and State. This is why one of the goals, indeed the primary goal, of Osama bin Laden and those who agree with him, is the reestablishment of the Caliphate.  Do all Muslims embrace this goal?  Do all Muslims embrace the other extremist strain of Islam represented by the Mullahs who rule Iran?  No.  But do the math.  You reference over a billion Muslims in the world. Assume a mere ten percent sympathize with or actively support the extremists (with their personal efforts, wealth, and propaganda). Do the math.

As to the threat posed by a nuclear armed Iran: The founding spiritual father of the Islamic Republic, Ayatollah Khomeini, summarized his view when he stated, "We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah.  For patriotism is another name for paganism.  I say let this land [Iran] burn.  I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world."
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 11, 2010, 08:03:05 am
I really wonder if other people on the Forum agree that Radical Islam (or Islamofascism or Fundamentalist Islam or Islamism or whatever name one wishes to call it) is an imagined threat, notwithstanding 9/11 and the numerous other attempts at terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad, some successful, many others not.

The threat is a terrorist criminal conspiracy. Because it is criminal behavior. Thoughtcrime is still mostly Orwellian fiction.

Islam, from inception to nearly the present, represented a melding of Faith and Empire. The unity of Mosque and State. This is why one of the goals, indeed the primary goal, of Osama bin Laden and those who agree with him, is the reestablishment of the Caliphate.  Do all Muslims embrace this goal?  Do all Muslims embrace the other extremist strain of Islam represented by the Mullahs who rule Iran?  No.  But do the math.  You reference over a billion Muslims in the world. Assume a mere ten percent sympathize with or actively support the extremists (with their personal efforts, wealth, and propaganda). Do the math.

You'll need to provide some evidence beyond your paranoia to convince me that your assumption isn't absurd. If there were 100 million folks gunning for us, we wouldn't need to guess about it.

Even if we accept your sweeping characterization of Islam for the sake of argument, so what? Our constitution calls for separation of church and state and I, along with the vast majority of Americans, support that fully (though there are plenty of Christians wanting to establish their religion as the state religion). I also support folks arguing for whatever foolishness they like. You know, freedom of speech, the American way and all. Of course, we get to argue back...
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 11, 2010, 09:03:28 am
You can't "do the math" without evidence.

100 million people is a HUGE number. That's 10 Los Angeleses.

100 million angry people could do a LOT more damage than has been done not only by Muslim terrorists  but by ALL terrorists combined.

I'm not getting into a debate about Israel with you, Michael but, if you think jews are exempt from gutting their enemies, wholesale, on religious grounds or have never engaged in terrorism to further their religious/ethnic goals, you're deluding yourself. No one in the world has clean hands when it comes to this. NO ONE.


EDIT:

corrected math. wow. that makes it even worse.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 11, 2010, 09:31:22 am
Ten million angry people could do a LOT more damage than has been done not only by Muslim terrorists  but by ALL terrorists combined. Where are you getting that ten million figure? It's made up, that's where. It's the smallest large number you can uses to scare yourself.

Actually, Michael said "Assume a mere ten percent sympathize with or actively support the extremists".
10% of 1 billion = 100 million
Presumably, that's what he means by do the math.  ::)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Vic Vega on June 11, 2010, 01:36:19 pm
Mike, I'd guess that when Khomeini said "Let this land burn" he probably had his bodyguards with him. He might very well be willing to see all that he surveys go up in global jihad, but I doubt he expects to be going anywhere. There's nowhere to run from Nukes that isn't as worse in its own way than being in ground zero. I never doubt the Leader's willingness to set others up to die but to die themselves is another matter.

Or to put it another way: Bin Laden didn't ask to take control of the stick on 9/11.

If the angry Muslim hordes numbered 100 million we would know about it in short order, I imagine. According to Wiki (which means nothing, really) there are about 2.5 million to 7 million Muslims in the U.S.A. I realize you guys were taking about worldwide numbers but since the last 3 attempts here in NYC were tried by guys who already lived here, the emblematic angry Yemeni, is the very least of my worries.

More so during a recession as folks look for things to take out their frustrations on. ITs the social losers who radicalize first. If you have a house, a job, a car and your girl looks like Kim Kardashian you aren't going to off your self no matter how much you hate Uncle Sam. When your job goes and the house, the car and Kim go right after that is when these guys start getting ideas (or acting on the one they have). 

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 11, 2010, 07:02:46 pm
The only point I was making regarding the number is that the number is huge worldwide; I chose 10% as a hypothetical number. That would still mean that 90% of Muslims worldwide do not buy into Fundamentalist Islam.

Not every sympathizer is in a position to do something about his or her sympathies, but some are.  Particularly those with the resources (in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, more broadly in the Middle East, etc).  I am not being paranoid.  I am simply being realistic.  Taking the Islamists at their word.  You are the ones being unrealistic (and in my view, a bit condescending toward them) by denying that they mean what they say.  And yes, that does include the Mullahs who rule Iran, as well as Osama's buddies. 

I was particularly responding to those who seem dedicated compare Radical Islam to Christianity, when contemporary Christians are nothing like Jihadists.  Because, it seems do me, some of you are just compelled to engage in a whitewash of what Radical Islam is all about. Which is particularly odd, given that the Radical Muslims reject much of you purport to stand for.  Were some bigoted sexist group to advocate a secular ideology with similar views, I would imagine many of you would be up in arms.

OH, and Curtis, I am not advocating repeal of the First Amendment.  ;)

Just that we not bury our heads in the sand.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 12, 2010, 03:42:39 pm
Quote
The only point I was making regarding the number is that the number is huge worldwide; I chose 10% as a hypothetical number. That would still mean that 90% of Muslims worldwide do not buy into Fundamentalist Islam.
Unfortunately it is still bogus. I have a feeling that the "jihadists" aren't any larger than the KKK. The funny part was that the KKK actually reach in the millions at one point and majority of them were concentrated in Indiana if I'm not mistaken. But coming up with a bogus number without proof screams delusion.

Quote
Not every sympathizer is in a position to do something about his or her sympathies, but some are.  Particularly those with the resources (in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, more broadly in the Middle East, etc).  I am not being paranoid.  I am simply being realistic.  Taking the Islamists at their word.  You are the ones being unrealistic (and in my view, a bit condescending toward them) by denying that they mean what they say.  And yes, that does include the Mullahs who rule Iran, as well as Osama's buddies. 
What realism are you discussing? The "realism" of what hollywood has demonstrated for decades regarding Muslims in "arabland"?  ::)
Awesome Documentary that discusses what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSPUQjxQem0

For decades we have created narrow viewed images of these people and these images had effects on US policy.
Quote
I was particularly responding to those who seem dedicated compare Radical Islam to Christianity, when contemporary Christians are nothing like Jihadists.  Because, it seems do me, some of you are just compelled to engage in a whitewash of what Radical Islam is all about. Which is particularly odd, given that the Radical Muslims reject much of you purport to stand for.  Were some bigoted sexist group to advocate a secular ideology with similar views, I would imagine many of you would be up in arms.
The radicals of islam isnt any different than the radicals of Christianity.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on June 12, 2010, 09:00:25 pm
For decades we have created narrow viewed images of these people


Don't you think you're exaggerating just a little?
(http://luchins.com/dickery/UXM_57_camel_jockey.jpg)
Ooops, maybe you aren't :-[
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 16, 2010, 07:27:38 pm
Comments regarding the stereotyping of Muslims are not relevant to the issue of how many radical Islamists are really out there. They are two separate issues.

Some of you were contesting my numbers.  Some of you were asking for proof.  I’m not sure if those requests were sincere or just rhetorical forms of argument.  But since I became curious and looked into it, I’ll share with you what I found.

My 10% estimate for the number of “radical Islamists” was, as I thought, reasonable and quite conservative.  The 2008 Gallop study, “Who Speaks for Islam” found that 7% of the world’s Muslims believe the 9/11 attacks were completely justified.  This translates to 91 million individuals.  The study also concludes that 1 out of 10 Muslims are radical (or, put another way, 9 out of 10 Muslims are moderate). That would translate to 130 million individuals.

The Gallop study was six years in the making, involved 50,000 interviews representing 1.3 Billion Muslims who reside in 35 nations that are predominantly Muslim or have sizeable Muslim majorities.  The tenor and tone of the study is very sympathetic to Muslims worldwide.  It was conducted by Professor John Esposito, the founding director of the Saudi-financed Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, and Dalia Mogahed, executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies.  Given where Esposito and Mogahed are coming from, and given their restrictive methodology for classifying individuals as “radical” (see below), the numbers cited above should be viewed as quite conservative.

The way that  Esposito and Mogahed have framed their analysis, to minimize the number of respondents whom they classify as “radical” (or using their terminology, the passive voice “radicalized”), has been subject to reasonable criticism.  I cite an article below that suggests that, based on the actual data, the number of radicals (or those with radical sympathies) is nearly twice the number computed by the authors, if not more:  7% of the respondents said the 9/11 attacks were “completely” justified (the only group classified in the study as “radicalized”), but another 6.5% said the attacks were “largely” justified.  Combining these two groups, the 13.5% response translates to 175.5 million people. The full data from the 9/11 question show that, in addition to the 13.5%, there is another 23.1% of respondents – 300 million Muslims –  who told pollsters the attacks were in some way justified.

The 7% and even the 13.5% figure are substantially less than what polls reflected immediately after 9/11, and in the few years after that horrific attack.  What might have motivated any decline in support for terrorism?

The answer might be found in the following example.  For some radical Islamists, it reflects not a change in ideology or long-term objective, but rather a change in tactics. Al-Qaeda's once-leading theorist has publicly repudiated terrorism and adopted political means. Sayyid Imam al-Sharif (b. 1950, also known by the nom de guerre Dr. Fadl) was accused of helping assassinate Sadat. In 1988 he published a book that argued for perpetual, violent jihad against the West. With time, however, Sharif observed the inutility of violent attacks and instead advocated a strategy of infiltrating the state and influencing society.

In a recent book, he condemned the use of force against Muslims ("Every drop of blood that was shed or is being shed in Afghanistan and Iraq is the responsibility of bin Laden and Zawahiri and their followers") and even against non-Muslims (9/11 was counterproductive, for "what good is it if you destroy one of your enemy's buildings, and he destroys one of your countries? What good is it if you kill one of his people, and he kills a thousand of yours?").  

What is interesting about this comment are its implications. The Bush Administration’s policy of “taking the fight to the enemy” may have indeed paid off. Perhaps some have recognized that violent terrorist acts will not be rewarded with American capitulation and isolationism, as originally envisioned by Bin Laden. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, characterized as fronts in the War on Terror, were not “wins” for Al-Qaeda.  Everyone loves a winner (and shuns a loser). It may also be the case that by “taking the fight” to Afghanistan and Iraq, the people of those countries (and fellow Muslims) are increasingly becoming turned off to the radical jihadists, who with their suicide bombings and other attacks are disproportionately killing Muslims (many of whom are innocent civilians).  Perhaps some of the radicals are now recognizing that this is counterproductive to the advancement of their cause.

Sharif's evolution from theorist of terrorism to advocate of lawful transformation echoes a much broader shift. Other once-violent Islamist organizations in Algeria, Egypt, and Syria have recognized the potential of lawful Islamism and largely renounced violence. One also sees a parallel shift in Western countries.

Of course, lawful and violent activity are not mutually exclusive.  Lawful Islamists may soften up the enemy, allowing violent elements to seize power. The Hamas takeover of Gaza proved that such a combination can work: win elections in 2006, then stage a violent insurrection in 2007. Similar processes are possibly underway in Pakistan.

In any event, the Gallop study confirms that the number of radical Islamists and their sympathizers is sizeable.  

As I mentioned above, some criticize the authors of the study for manipulating their own data to understate the present size of the threat. Though there has probably been some decline in support for terrorism from the heady days of September 11, 2001. The following articles provide critiques of the Gallop study:
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 16, 2010, 07:27:58 pm
Just Like Us! Really?
Gallup says only 7 percent of the world's Muslims are political radicals. Yet 36 percent think the 9/11 attacks were in some way justified.
BY Robert Satloff
Weekly Standard
May 12, 2008, Vol. 13, No. 33

On the inside back cover of books published by Gallup Press there is the following breathtaking statement:
Gallup Press exists to educate and inform the people who govern, manage, teach and lead the world's six billion citizens. Each book meets Gallup's requirements of integrity, trust and independence and is based on a Gallup-approved science and research.

Don't be distracted by the bad grammar. Focus instead on Gallup's "requirements of integrity, trust and independence." Thanks to a remarkable admission by a coauthor of Gallup's new bestseller Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, we are now able to know precisely what Gallup's "requirements" really are.

Who Speaks for Islam? is written by John L. Esposito, founding director of Georgetown University's Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, and Dalia Mogahed, executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. As the authors state at the outset, the book's goal is to "democratize the debate" about a potential clash between Western and Muslim civilizations by shedding light on the "actual views of everyday Muslims"--especially the "silenced majority" whose views Esposito and Mogahed argue are lost in the din about terrorism, extremism, and Islamofascism.

This majority, they contend, are just like us. They pray like Americans, dream of professional advancement like Americans, delight in technology like Americans, celebrate democracy like Americans, and cherish the ideal of women's equality like Americans. In fact, the authors write, "everyday Muslims" are so similar to ordinary Americans that "conflict between the Muslim and Western communities is far from inevitable."

Similar arguments have been made before; some of this is true, some is rubbish, much is irrelevant. The real debate about the "clash of civilizations" is about whether a determined element of radical Muslims could, like the Bolsheviks, take control of their societies and lead them into conflict with the West. The question often revolves around a disputed data point: Of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, how many are radicals? If the number is relatively small, then the fear of a clash is inflated; if the number is relatively large, then the nightmare might not be so outlandish after all.

What gives Who Speaks for Islam? its aura of credibility is that its answers are allegedly based on hard data, not taxi-driver anecdotes from a quick visit to Cairo. The book draws on a mammoth, six-year effort to poll and interview tens of thousands of Muslims in more than 35 countries with Muslim majorities or substantial minorities. The polling sample, Esposito and Mogahed claim, represents "more than 90 percent of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims." To back up the claim, the book bears the name of the gold-standard of American polling firms, Gallup.

The answer to that all-important question, the authors say, is 7 percent. That is the percentage of Muslims who told pollsters that the attacks of September 11, 2001, were "completely" justified and who said they view the United States unfavorably--the double-barreled litmus test devised by Esposito and Mogahed to determine who is radical and who isn't.
The authors don't actually call even these people "radicals," however; the term they use is "politically radicalized," which implies that someone else is responsible for turning these otherwise ordinary Muslims into bin Laden sympathizers. By contrast, Muslims who said the 9/11 attacks were "not justified" they term "moderates."

More than half the book is an effort to distinguish the 7 percent of extremist Muslims from the "9 out of 10," as they say, who are moderates and then to focus our collective efforts on reaching out to the fringe element. With remarkable exactitude, they argue: "If the 7 percent (91 million) of the politically radicalized continue to feel politically dominated, occupied and disrespected, the West will have little, if any, chance of changing their minds." There is no need to worry about the 93 percent because, as Esposito and Mogahed have already argued, they are just like us.

There is much here to criticize. The not-so-hidden purpose of this book is to blur any difference between average Muslims around the world and average Americans, and the authors rise to the occasion at every turn. Take the very definition of "Islam." From Karen Armstrong to Bernard Lewis--and that's a pretty broad range--virtually every scholar of note (and many who aren't) has translated the term "Islam" as "submission to God." But "submission" evidently sounds off-putting to the American ear, so Esposito and Mogahed offer a different, more melodious translation--"a strong commitment to God"--that has a ring to it of everything but accuracy.

Or take the authors' cavalier attitude to the word "many." How many is many? Thirty percent of the vote won't get Hillary Clinton nominated for president, but it would be a lot if the subject were how many Americans cheat on their taxes or beat their wives. At the very least, one might expect a book based on polling data to be filled with numbers. This one isn't. Instead, page after page of Who Speaks for Islam? contains such useless and unsourced references as "many respondents cite" this or "many Muslims see" that.

Or take the authors' apparent indifference to facts. Twice, for example, they cite as convincing evidence for their argument poll data from "the ten most populous majority Muslim countries," which they then list as including Jordan and Lebanon, tiny states that don't even rank in the top 25 of Muslim majority countries. Twice they say their 10 specially polled countries collectively comprise 80 percent of the world Muslim population; in fact, the figure is barely 60 percent.
These problems would not matter much if the book gave readers the opportunity to review the poll data on which Esposito and Mogahed base their judgments. Alas, that is not the case. Neither the text nor the appendix includes the full data to a single question from any survey taken by Gallup over the entire six-year period of its World Poll initiative. We, the readers, either have to pay more than $20,000 to Gallup to gain access to its proprietary research or have to rely on the good faith of the authors.

Or, more accurately, we have to rely on Gallup's good name--the "integrity, trust and independence" cited above. Public comments by Mogahed at a luncheon I hosted at the Washington Institute on April 17 show exactly what that is worth.
Here's the context: As the event was about to close, Mogahed was pressed to explain the book's central claim that radicals constitute 7 percent of the world's Muslim population. A questioner focused on the critical distinction between the 7 percent of respondents who said the 9/11 attacks were "completely justified" and the other 93 percent. How many of those 93 percent, Mogahed was asked, actually answered that the attacks were "partly," "somewhat," or even "largely" justified? Were those people truly moderates?

In her answer, transcribed below, Mogahed refers in pollster code to numbers ascribed to the five possible answers to the poll question about justifying 9/11. Although she and Esposito never discuss the details of this question in their book, they did expound on them in a 2006 article in Foreign Policy magazine, which described a five-point scale in which "Ones" are respondents who said 9/11 was "totally unjustified" and "Fives" those who said the attacks were "completely justified."

In that article, she and Esposito wrote: "Respondents who said 9/11 was justified (4 or 5 on the same scale) are classified as radical." In the book they wrote two years later, they redefined "radical" to comprise a much smaller group--only the Fives. But in her luncheon remarks, Mogahed admitted that many of the "moderates" she and Esposito celebrated really aren't so moderate after all.

MOGAHED: I can't off the top of my head [recall the data], but we are going to be putting some of those findings in our [updated] book and our website.

To clarify a couple of things about the book--the book is not a hard-covered polling report. The book is a book about the modern Muslim world that used its polling to inform its analysis. So that's important: It's meant for a general audience, and it's not meant to be a polling report. One very important reason why is because Gallup is selling subscriptions to its data. We are a for-profit company; we are not Pew. We are Gallup. So this isn't about it was not meant for the data to be free since we paid $20 million to collect [the data] that we paid all on our own. So just to clarify that.
So, how did we come up with the word "politically radicalized" that we unfortunately used in the book? Here's why: because people who were Fives, people who said 9/11 was justified, looked distinctly different from the Fours. At first, before we had enough data to do sort of a cluster analysis, we lumped the Fours and Fives together because that was our best judgment.

QUESTIONER: And what percent was that?

MOGAHED: I seriously don't remember but I think it was in the range of 7 to 8 percent [actually, 6.5 percent].
QUESTIONER: So it's seven Fours and seven Fives?

MOGAHED: Yes, we lumped these two and did our analysis. When we had enough data to really see when things broke away, here's what we found: Fives looked very different from the Fours, and Ones through Fours looked similar. [Mogahed then explained that, on another question, concerning suicide bombing, respondents who said 9/11 was only partially justified clustered with those who said it wasn't justified at all.] And so the Fives looked very different; they broke, they clustered away, and Ones through Fours clustered together. And that is how we decided to break them apart and decided how we were to define "politically radicalized" for our research.

Yes, we can say that a Four is not that moderate. I don't know. You are writing a book, you are trying to come up with terminology people can understand. You know, maybe it wasn't the most technically accurate way of doing this, but this is how we made our cluster-based analysis.


So, there it is--the smoking gun. Mogahed publicly admitted they knew certain people weren't moderates but they still termed them so. She and Esposito cooked the books and dumbed down the text. Apparently, by the authors' own test, there are not 91 million radicals in Muslim societies but almost twice that number. They must have shrieked in horror to find their original estimate on the high side of assessments made by scholars, such as Daniel Pipes, whom Esposito routinely denounces as Islamophobes. To paraphrase Mogahed, maybe it wasn't the most technically accurate way of doing this, but their neat solution seems to have been to redefine 78 million people off the rolls of radicals.

The cover-up is even worse. The full data from the 9/11 question show that, in addition to the 13.5 percent, there is another 23.1 percent of respondents--300 million Muslims--who told pollsters the attacks were in some way justified. Esposito and Mogahed don't utter a word about the vast sea of intolerance in which the radicals operate.

And then there is the more fundamental fraud of using the 9/11 question as the measure of "who is a radical." Amazing as it sounds, according to Esposito and Mogahed, the proper term for a Muslim who hates America, wants to impose Sharia law, supports suicide bombing, and opposes equal rights for women but does not "completely" justify 9/11 is "moderate."
Could the smart people at Gallup really believe this? Regardless, they should immediately release all the data associated with their world poll and open all the files and archives of their Center for Muslim Studies to independent inspection. With a dose of transparency and a dollop of humility, the data just might teach something useful to the world's six billion citizens.

Robert Satloff is the executive director of the Washington Institute
for Near East Policy.


Who Speaks For Islam? Not John Esposito
By: Jonathan Gelbart
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
If the Georgetown University Prof represents Islam, the world’s Muslims are in trouble.

Georgetown University Professor John Esposito is the media’s favorite go-to man for questions about Islam. As the founding director of the Saudi-financed Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown, he is also notorious for downplaying radical Islam. Stanford University hosted his latest round of apologetics on May 13.

Esposito, who spoke at Stanford last year, was on campus to promote the film version of his recent book (co-authored with Dalia Mogahed of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies), Who Speaks For Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think. He was joined by the film’s executive producer, Muslim convert Michael Wolfe. The 55-minute film claims to present the results of the “largest, most comprehensive study” of Muslim opinion ever done. The crowd’s political leaning were evident in the audible hisses that greeted the cinematic image of former President George W. Bush. 

A question and answer session with Esposito and Wolfe followed the screening. Don Emmerson, director of the Southeast Asia Forum at the Walter H. Shorenstein Asia-Pacific Research Center at Stanford and an affiliated scholar with the Abbasi Program in Islamic Studies, was the first to offer up a challenge. Emmerson pointed out a question posed in the film, “Do you believe a woman should be allowed to work in any job she is qualified for?” is answered affirmatively by large majorities of Muslim men and women, but that the film never clarifies for what exactly the respondents believe women to be qualified. Thus, Emmerson concluded, “No quality control is evident in either the film or, if I may say so, in the book.” Esposito had no response.

Emmerson went on to question the film’s claim that “[the term] ‘jihad’ always has positive connotations for Muslims.” “I can attest,” he said firmly, “that this is simply not true.” Emmerson continued, “In Indonesia...Muslims try to avoid the word ‘jihadi’ because they know that it means somebody who engages in violence, and they don’t want to be identified [with that].” Esposito responded with classic academic hair-splitting, claiming that, “If you really listen to what [the woman] is saying when she refers to jihad, she refers to a specific set of data on jihad. And that’s referring to a particular poll that was done and the data that comes out of that poll.”

In answering the next question, Esposito repeated his decade-old claim that radical Islam poses little to no national security threat to the United States. Citing the allegedly “small” number of post-9/11 arrests that resulted in terrorism charges, Esposito, with palpable disdain, told the audience, “I run into Americans all the time who ask me, ‘How many embedded cells do you think there are?’” (In fact, the 9/11 Commission cited inadequate FBI investigation of these very cells as a contributor to the September 11, 2001 attacks.)   

Esposito downplayed radicalism in American mosques, recounting a lecture where an audience member brought up the statistic of 80 percent and attributing the figure to a “Muslim basher.” A number of counterterrorism experts and Islam scholars have cited the 80 percent figure, but in doing so, they are usually referring to the number of American mosques whose leadership is influenced by Saudi-funded Wahhabi extremism. As an alleged expert, one would expect Esposito to be aware of this fact, even if it is rather inconvenient.   

Shifting his focus to Europe, Esposito cited a recent, unnamed Gallup study on European Muslims to make the outlandish claim that, “the vast majority of Muslim Europeans, are far more open to their society and far more pluralistic in their hopes and their aspirations than indigenous, liberal, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.” Assuming Esposito was referring to the May 7, 2009 study by Gallup and the U.K.-based Coexist Foundation, his conclusions were way off the mark. The study merely demonstrates that general European populations tend to perceive “ambiguous allegiances” among Muslims based on the elevated importance of the latter’s “religious identities,” a suspicion that is hardly without basis. But for Esposito, it comes down to picking and choosing facts that best fit his narrative.
   
The most memorable exchange of the night occurred between Esposito and a man who identified himself as an Arab Muslim living in the U.S. The latter raised serious problems with the interpretation of the data presented in the film, as when he demolished the film’s laughable conclusion that women in Muslim countries wear the hijab (head scarf) because they have an “amazing idea of the distinction between its internal and external meanings.”The majority of Muslim women wear the hijab, the questioner said, because of cultural and religious pressure, and he feared that the documentary would, as he put it: 

Decrease pressure on movements for women’s rights, reforming Islam, and democracy, [because] the image we get from this movie is that there is a utopia in the Islamic world that we don’t know about. But the reality is that there is no utopia.

Esposito dodged the question by responding that one must distinguish between religious and secular Muslim women. “It’s about what women want,” he asserted. “Interviewing secular women who speak good English doesn’t mean they reflect what Muslim women want.” But, apparently, Esposito’s conclusions do?

The views presented in the film, as well as Esposito’s answers, reflect an interpretation of Islam and Muslims that does not jive with reality. Esposito’s obfuscation when faced with tough questions, his dismissal of the threat of Islamic terrorism, and his refusal to take seriously points of view different from his own reveals an anti-intellectualism that is detrimental to the field of Middle East studies. If Esposito and his ilk are “speaking for Islam,” the world’s Muslims are in trouble.

Jonathan Gelbart is an international relations major at Stanford University and the current features editor of the Stanford Review, an independent publication. He wrote this article for Campus Watch, a project of the Middle East Forum.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 16, 2010, 08:39:13 pm
Quote
The 2008 Gallop study, “Who Speaks for Islam” found that 7% of the world’s Muslims believe the 9/11 attacks were justified.  This translates to 91 million individuals.  The study also concludes that 1 out of 10 Muslims are radical (or, put another way, 9 out of 10 Muslims are moderate). That would translate to 130 million individuals.

Michael, I'm not trying to poke you but, as a conservative (fundamentalist) jew, you qualify as "radical." The vast majority of Jews do not fall under that heading and, among Americans of Faith in general the percentage is even smaller. That's what "radical" means.

Such studies do not show correlation between "radical" political views and terrorism. You're making a MASSIVE leap in logic by connecting the two.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 17, 2010, 06:43:20 am
Quote
The 2008 Gallop study, “Who Speaks for Islam” found that 7% of the world’s Muslims believe the 9/11 attacks were justified.  This translates to 91 million individuals.  The study also concludes that 1 out of 10 Muslims are radical (or, put another way, 9 out of 10 Muslims are moderate). That would translate to 130 million individuals.

Michael, I'm not trying to poke you but, as a conservative (fundamentalist) jew, you qualify as "radical." The vast majority of Jews do not fall under that heading and, among Americans of Faith in general the percentage is even smaller. That's what "radical" means.

Such studies do not show correlation between "radical" political views and terrorism. You're making a MASSIVE leap in logic by connecting the two.

I'm not making a massive leap.  I've quoted a study, and cited two articles, regarding those who support Islamist terrorism. Geoff, seriously, often you respond not to what I've actually written, but what you imagine I have written or wish that I had written.

I believe the following is clear: Anyone who supports the terrorist acts of September 11, 2001, is "radical" by any definition that should be used by Americans.

You seem obsessed with deflecting the conversation onto Jews, when we are discussing the threat posed by terrorism and Muslim attitudes toward it (and no, virtually no Jews, except maybe a small handfull of some twisted radical leftists, support the World Trade Center bombing). 

Despite your innuendo: I am not confusing religious Muslims with radical jihadist Muslims. My original speculation (which turned out to be quite conservative) was that 90% of Muslims worldwide, which include a large number of religious Muslims, are not "radical" by the standard set forth above.

But a significant number are.  In terms of the absolute number of individuals. From the actual data of the Gallop study, cited above, the percentage that supports the 9/11 attacks is actually higher than I estimated.

I have documented the numbers involved with the "proof" people requested. Some on the forum first denied the number. Even with this documentation, some may still wish to look the other way. Others may try to change to subject. Such attitudes are irresponsible. The truth should not be ignored simply because it doesn't comport with one's preconceptions, prejudices or wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 17, 2010, 10:24:10 am
I have documented the numbers involved with the "proof" people requested. Some on the forum first denied the number. Even with this documentation, some may still wish to look the other way. Others may try to change to subject. Such attitudes are irresponsible. The truth should not be ignored simply because it doesn't comport with one's preconceptions, prejudices or wishful thinking.

The definition of "radical" is central to the discussion in my view.

But how about a different track: for the sake of discussion, even if we differ about its magnitude, let's say there is a significant terrorist threat related to radical Islamist theology. What should be done to protect ourselves and diminish the threat in your view?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 17, 2010, 12:01:25 pm
No, not "jews."

If you were a fundamentalist Christian expressing the same views I would focus on that. The reason you're so focused on the extremes is because you live there. We don't. By "we" I mean most people.

To me Israel is just one more nation that is not the US. No more important than Mexico or Australia and no less.

If they do things that help us, great, they are allies. If they work against us, to hell with them because they are not allies. I don't start from the premise that ANY nation beyond this one, the one I live in and am a citizen of, deserves any particular stance from the US. As a result, these firebrand reports and alarmist conclusions fall a bit flat with  with me and, I think, some of the others because our experience and world views not only don't but can't line up with yours.

The data in the studies you cite doesn't add up to much more than a basic antipathy for the US's policies as they apply to the Muslim world and, frankly, we haven't done so well there. There are plenty of legitimate gripes for them to have with us and that's long before you even have to mention the whole Israel/Palestine thing.

Taking a sober look at all factors in the new cold war, assessing all players rationally does not add up to 100 million terrorists.

It simply doesn't.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 17, 2010, 06:56:31 pm
I have documented the numbers involved with the "proof" people requested. Some on the forum first denied the number. Even with this documentation, some may still wish to look the other way. Others may try to change to subject. Such attitudes are irresponsible. The truth should not be ignored simply because it doesn't comport with one's preconceptions, prejudices or wishful thinking.

The definition of "radical" is central to the discussion in my view.

But how about a different track: for the sake of discussion, even if we differ about its magnitude, let's say there is a significant terrorist threat related to radical Islamist theology. What should be done to protect ourselves and diminish the threat in your view?

The first step is for wishful thinkers to stop deluding themselves regarding the scope and magnitude of the problem.

The second step is for those people to stop trying to delude others.

If those things are not done, as a start, we will go nowhere in terms of reducing the threat at home and the risks abroad.

What amazes me here is that I have provided significant substantiation for the numbers, not mere opinion but hard data, generated by people who have no axe to grind against Muslims (indeed, Dalia Mogahed is a religious Muslim woman).  And yet you still suggest the we differ as to the magnitude.  As to the 7%, and really the 13.5%, how can you differ with the results of the study?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 17, 2010, 07:48:20 pm
So what would be third on your list since the first two "actions" are not.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 18, 2010, 07:48:32 am
So what would be third on your list since the first two "actions" are not.


One thing at a time. I really would like us not to get sidetracked, but rather stay focused on the present point under discussion. Rather than moving on to a different, possibly broader, topic.   

Or, as the Brain used to say,

(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/Christmas/pinky-and-the-brain_400.jpg)
                    "Focus, Pinky, Focus!"

In this discussion, some forum members denied the nature, magnitude and scope of support for radical Islam.  We also heard suggestions that those who raise the issue are motivated by bigotry or adhering to bigoted stereotypes, rather than just trying to get a realistic picture of what actually exists in the real world. (There were also some other comments that have no bearing on the issue we are discussing, or on the facts I shared with you, at all).

I would really like to know what the reaction of people is to the Gallop study.  Support or sympathy for the terrorist actions of radical Islamists, including support for the terrorist murder of thousands of innocent American civilians, is greater thoughout the Muslim world than many of you believed. (I'm not trying to put words in other's mouths; my comment here is simply based on what was posted by others, above, who were disagreeing with me on this point).

Curtis, what is your reaction to the two articles and the statistics I cited?   

What is your reaction to the Gallop study authors' manipulating their definitions to understate the problem, despite the data that was actually collected?  Furthermore, did it occur to you that to get a realistic picture, more precise questions could have been asked?  See, for example, the discussion above, regarding women working. For another example, instead of just asking about suicide bombing generically, wouldn't it have been more revealing to ask the respondents how they rate their support for the suicide bombing of Muslims, then a second question as to Christians, then a third question as to Jews (and so forth). It would be much more productive to ask questions in an effort to obtain nuanced understandings of attitudes, rather than merely seeking to paint a preconceived picture.  Finally, what I find interesting is that, despite the slant of the authors, the data they collected on the "9/11 issue" was quite disturbing.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 18, 2010, 10:36:57 am
Curtis, what is your reaction to the two articles and the statistics I cited?   

Interesting polling data. Not conclusive of much.

We can agree that there is a terrorist threat and that there is a radical Islamist ideology advocating terrorism.
I have no interest in debating speculation about the number of folks meeting whatever definition of radical is in play here.
One hundred million Muslim "radicals" strikes me as pretty unlikely. There's more than zero though.

So, what do folks think we should do to diminish the terrorist threat?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Hypestyle on June 19, 2010, 01:04:57 pm
Conflict with missionaries leads to arrests at Detroit Arab-American Festival.. http://tinyurl.com/29soeu9
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 20, 2010, 07:04:29 am
Curtis, what is your reaction to the two articles and the statistics I cited?  
Interesting polling data. Not conclusive of much.

Not conclusive of much?!!! Why do you say that? Support for the vicious terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, is a very strong reflection of the attitudes and allegiances of the persons being interviewed. The data is quite conclusive.

We can agree that there is a terrorist threat and that there is a radical Islamist ideology advocating terrorism.
I have no interest in debating speculation about the number of folks meeting whatever definition of radical is in play here.
One hundred million Muslim "radicals" strikes me as pretty unlikely. There's more than zero though.

Why does it strike you as unlikely, when there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world? (A huge population base).

Why does the existence of extremism and hatred in the world, adhered to by a large number of people, seem so unlikely to you, so impossible for you to accept as fact?

Even with the large absolute number of extremists and their sympathizers, this still means that the majority of Muslims in the world are not radical Islamists.  The majority do not support the jihadists.  

Anyway, the reaction I've received in the above posts to the hard statistical data is pretty much as I anticipated; that the request for "proof" was really not at all sincere, but rather was a mere rhetorical device to dismiss what I was saying (which, as is evident by your response, is still the reaction).

Oh well. I'm not surprised. Just demonstrates what a waste of time it was to research the facts and share the findings. Because, really, the facts don't matter.  I don't see the value in now shifting to yet another topic of "discussion."
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 20, 2010, 10:05:38 am
It's not that people are ignoring or dismissing the data, Michael. It's only (for different reasons, mind you) we don't think it adds up to what you think it does.

Polls, even the best ones, are soft data, open to interpretation.

I see those numbers and I think, "Duh. Of course the arab world (as opposed to the muslim world) has a basic antipathy for the US in specific and the West, in general. We haven't treated them well over the last two centuries."

You read it and see it as a horde of barbarians poised to attack the gate. I see no practical, real-world evidence of this horde. A FEW nutjobs have made a lot of noise over the last few years but they are not representative of this MASSIVE army of like-minded nutjobs that seems to worry you so. No horde, no reason to set my hair on fire.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 20, 2010, 05:09:43 pm
It's not that people are ignoring or dismissing the data, Michael. It's only (for different reasons, mind you) we don't think it adds up to what you think it does.

Polls, even the best ones, are soft data, open to interpretation.

Exactly. One can register Michael's evidence without reaching the same conclusions. There are competing hypotheses to say the least.   
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 20, 2010, 08:56:46 pm
Actually, anyone who supports the September 11th attacks (and comparable terrorist attacks) ... supports those terrorist attacks. In this respect the poll responses certainly do not constitute "soft" data ... they say what they say. Were this poll conducted by some neo-conservative pundits, who framed the questions to bring out the most harsh responses possible, I would concede that you might have a valid objection (depending on the quality of the poll). However, in this case, the pollsters were just the opposite - a professor who is dependent on the Saudis for his bread and butter, and a devoutly religious hijab-wearing Muslim academic. They clearly did not craft their questions to elicit (nor probably to even seek out) negative statistics. On the contrary, their agenda appears to have been just the opposite, to portray Muslims in the most favorable light possible. Therefore, to the extent the data is negative (reflecting support for terrorism) it is very solid.  And yes, the absolute numbers are huge. That is not a matter of interpretation. That is not a matter of opinion. That is a matter of fact.

Of those who expressed support for the September 11th attacks, some are militants/terrorists; some are active supporters through their personal efforts and finances and propaganda, and some represent a sympathetic population from which the terrorists can operate, and who express their support. And some ... make it their goal both overseas and in America to whitewash the nature of the movement to minimize the public perception of the threat, to undermine prudent vigilance. 

This does not mean that all Muslims are culpable.  On the contrary, viewed in terms of percentages of the Muslim population, most do not support such terrorism. But, unfortunately, a huge absolute number of them do.

Unlike Geoff, I have not used the expressen "hordes" (and so forth ... that is his dismissive parody of what I said). To dismiss reality by way of parody is ... absurd. Unless, of course, that's all one has to go on, to serve whatever agenda one has that is motivating one's obfuscation of reality.     

Look guys. I've told you this before regarding the level of support for terrorism in the Muslim World. I DID NOT BELIEVE this to be the case prior to 9/11. Even after 9/11 I initially didn't believe it ... until the polling data kept rolling in and rolling in. With numbers even higher than those reflected above. There comes a point when any responsible and honest person must pull his head out of the sand and recognize what really exists, like it or not.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 20, 2010, 09:40:33 pm
Polls are soft data, Michael, regardless of the results or how the questions are framed. Why? Because they are just talk and there's no way to verify if any of the talk is mathced with actions. Oh, wait, yes there is.

When people ask if Americans want smaller government, most will say some version of "yes." But when they VOTE, most do not vote to get rid of the things that qualify as big government.

If a hundred white people are asked if they believe racism is nearly gone and non-whites have an even chance in this society, a good number will say, "Yes, all that's pretty much over." But, in their home buying patterns, you can easily see that so-called White Flight from the urban centers never really stopped.

Talk is cheap. Worthless, really.

The reason you're being treated as an alarmist is because there is nothing in the actual BEHAVIOR of "those people" to indicate that they will do or have actually done anything to support terrorism.

Do they feel happy that America got a bloody nose on 9/11? Sure. Does that translate into raising their sons and daughters to strap on explosives or hijack planes?

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that their words of support translate into deeds.

So no one is hiding their heads. We're actually using them.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 20, 2010, 11:16:41 pm
You all asked for proof. In measuring attitudes, polls are not meaningless. They are the best measure of widespread attitudes. Particularly given that terrorist cells and organizations do not advertise their membership in the yellow pages.

Redjack, we were discussing Muslim attitudes, worldwide (not only in the Arab world). To evaluate if those attitudes are indeed comparable to those of contemporary Christians, for example.  You claimed I said, though I never said, that all those who are supportive of terrorism are strapping suicide bombs to their chests. That is your silly parody again.  

What the poll does reveal is attitudes far different from those of contemporary Christians, in supporting the mass murder of innocent civilians on September 11, 2001. Not a "bloody nose." Mass murder. This data suggests the degree of support the jihadists obtain and more broadly radical Islamists may garner, through various means from a supportive element of the population, through the sympathetic media, and through financial support. These facts are relevant to what is taking place in the real world today. This was touched upon in the longer article I posted above. Read it again.

On top of that, Redjack, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  Sure, in being asked questions by a pollster, some people may falsely deny that they support vile acts or attitudes (whatever those may be -- for example, to the question as to whether one supports racism or racial discrimination). However, you can be sure that those who answer in the affirmative mean it. So too here, you can be sure that those who answered that the attacks of September 11th were justified meant what they said. Your point actually suggests that some might have denied viewing that act of murder of innocents as justified, thinking that the negative answer was what the pro-Muslim pollsters were after for public dissemination, when the interviewee really supported the act of terrorism. If anything, your point would suggest that the results understate support for the September 11th attacks. I'm not suggesting that was the case with the Gallop poll, but that possibility logically follows from you comment.  

In any event, the numbers are very real. To deny them is to deny reality itself.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 21, 2010, 06:10:55 am
The fact that someone is not willing to go out and lynch black people, burn down black churches and Synagogues doesn't mean that they aren't as bigoted and racist as KKK and Aryan brotherhood member. Those folks may not become suicide bombers and plane hijackers but at the same time they don't see anything wrong with that. They think it is a legitimate way of weighing war.

At this moment Islam is at the same level Christianity was 300 years ago when they decided it was good to burn people at the stake for reading books.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 21, 2010, 07:21:41 am
The fact that someone is not willing to go out and lynch black people, burn down black churches and Synagogues doesn't mean that they aren't as bigoted and racist as KKK and Aryan brotherhood member. Those folks may not become suicide bombers and plane hijackers but at the same time they don't see anything wrong with that. They think it is a legitimate way of weighing war.

At this moment Islam is at the same level Christianity was 300 years ago when they decided it was good to burn people at the stake for reading books.

I wonder if that was the point Reginald Hudlin was making when we were discussing the Islamists, when he kept pointing to Christians hundreds of years ago using their faith to justify the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.  Maybe I misunderstood his point.  ???
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Princesa on June 21, 2010, 07:32:44 pm
Except, in my tribe, we have women and whites and asians and south asians and homosexuals and Christians and Muslims, hindus, Jews and Atheists. We have Buddhists and geeks. What we don't have is bigots. It's easy to attempt to reduce my arguments to some version of intransigent "reverse" racism or that I'm somehow mired in my own "angers" about "past" misdeeds.

Sadly, that dog won't hunt.

The teabaggers are a bunch of fear-crazed nutjobs who you had better pray don't get a foothold in this country's government.


I'm late but brilliant and on the money post Red.

In semi-related news after the PR Day parade last week I am now as brown as a berry and persona non grata in 28 states.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on June 22, 2010, 07:38:28 am
I wonder if that was the point Reginald Hudlin was making when we were discussing the Islamists, when he kept pointing to Christians hundreds of years ago using their faith to justify the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.  Maybe I misunderstood his point.  ???



Of course you missed his point.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade colonized the Americas. By today's civilized  standards, that method would appear as an atrocity, so why deny the accusation?
Who could blame the christians?
Quite frankly, if my ancestors have historically participated and benefitted in the greatest swindle against an entire race of people the world has ever known, I'd use every excuse in 'the good book' to clear my conscience, too.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Francisco on June 22, 2010, 08:03:05 am
I wonder if that was the point Reginald Hudlin was making when we were discussing the Islamists, when he kept pointing to Christians hundreds of years ago using their faith to justify the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.  Maybe I misunderstood his point.  ???



Of course you missed his point.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade colonized the Americas. By today's civilized  standards, that method would appear as an atrocity, so why deny the accusation?
Who could blame the christians?
Quite frankly, if my ancestors have historically participated and benefitted in the greatest swindle against an entire race of people the world has ever known, I'd use every excuse in 'the good book' to clear my conscience, too.

Muslims did the exact same thing. That's how Islam got into Africa. Worst yet they still practice slavery in Africa and it is not illegal. Today Christians build hospital and schools.. Muslims cut the clitoris of girls.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on June 22, 2010, 08:19:21 am
Muslims did the exact same thing. That's how Islam got into Africa. Worst yet they still practice slavery in Africa and it is not illegal. Today Christians build hospital and schools.. Muslims cut the clitoris of girls.


Which countries in Africa?  ...because there are at least 50.


Do Muslims build hospitals and schools, too?   ...or not?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 22, 2010, 08:21:25 am
I wonder if that was the point Reginald Hudlin was making when we were discussing the Islamists, when he kept pointing to Christians hundreds of years ago using their faith to justify the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.  Maybe I misunderstood his point.  ???



Of course you missed his point.

The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade colonized the Americas. By today's civilized  standards, that method would appear as an atrocity, so why deny the accusation?
Who could blame the christians?
Quite frankly, if my ancestors have historically participated and benefitted in the greatest swindle against an entire race of people the world has ever known, I'd use every excuse in 'the good book' to clear my conscience, too.

Muslims did the exact same thing. That's how Islam got into Africa. Worst yet they still practice slavery in Africa and it is not illegal. Today Christians build hospital and schools.. Muslims cut the clitoris of girls.

No.

AFRICANS do that. There is nothing in Islam about castrating women. That is a tribal custom that has been folded into some African versions of Islam just as African Animism mixed with Christianity is called Voodoo in the United States..

And, once again, plenty of Christians are involved with the global slave trade that exists today. Lots and lots and lots.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a Muslim and there is nothing wrong with Islam that isn't equally wrong with all the other magical belief systems. South Africa was a Christian nation through all the years of Apartheid. The nations of central and south America are all Christian and the vast majority of them treat their Native and African-descendant peoples like sh*t.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Gooch on June 22, 2010, 12:22:08 pm
using editorials to win your argument reaks of intellectual dishonesty
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 22, 2010, 01:40:00 pm
using editorials to win your argument reaks of intellectual dishonesty

Not sure what you mean here, Gooch.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 22, 2010, 09:18:45 pm
I wonder if that was the point Reginald Hudlin was making when we were discussing the Islamists, when he kept pointing to Christians hundreds of years ago using their faith to justify the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.  Maybe I misunderstood his point.  ???
Of course you missed his point.
The Trans-Atlantic Slave trade colonized the Americas. By today's civilized  standards, that method would appear as an atrocity, so why deny the accusation?
Who could blame the christians?
Quite frankly, if my ancestors have historically participated and benefitted in the greatest swindle against an entire race of people the world has ever known, I'd use every excuse in 'the good book' to clear my conscience, too.

Battle: Haha, you totally missed my point. I was in no way justifying the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. To the best of my knowledge my "ancestors" did not participate in the slave trade. Here is my point: Above Francisco compared Islam today to the barbaric strain of Christianity that existed hundreds of years ago, used to justify burning people at the stake and the like (I would add the mass murders committed during the Crusades as well). Reginald similarly made references to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade that took place hundreds of years ago, that was justified on religious grounds by some Christians (even though I believe that most of those whom participated in the slave trade were motivated by the desire for profits).  My question was whether Reginald's point was the same as Francisco's.  It seems that Reginald was saying that contemporary Islam (or at least contemporary radical Islam) is like the more barbaric strains of Christianity that existed hundreds of years ago.  Since he was referencing Christian practices not in 2010, but rather 200 to 400 years ago.   

Redjack:  You routinely equate religions with the phrase "magical thinking" and those who are devoutly religious as "fundamentalist" and in the course of so doing lump all religions, and all devout practitioners of religions, into one big bucket. As though they are all equivalent, indistinguishable, morally and otherwise. Slapping on simplistic labels doesn't provide clarity. It fosters intellectual confusion and misunderstanding of the facts. The Jihadists and their sympathizers are simply not the same as your average Evangelical Christian, even though some apply the label "fundamentalist" to both.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 22, 2010, 10:34:23 pm
You are all the same. you beleive in magic. It doesn't matter what kind of magic floats your boat, the fact is you reject aspects, empirically observable and quantifiable aspects of reality in favor of magic. You fill in the blanks left by "I don't know" and "I don't understand" with magic. You call that magic, God.

Which is absolutely your right.

But it is also my right to- accurately- describe you as having a bent that prevents you from understanding the reality of certain events and situations whenever those situations bump up against your Faith. This is one of those times. I respect your right to believe as you choose but i do not respect your actual beliefs as anything firm or real. To me they are fairy tales. Some of them are awesome; some are helpful life lessons but, as facts and as a means of interpreting most of reality, they are no more real than a Shakespeare play.

If I want advice on how to be a good dad, I'm just as likely to ask you as any other father, Believer or not. If I want input on geopolitical and social conflicts, the LAST person I would ask would be a fundamentalist believer in any magical tradition. It doesn't matter which one.

Your and Francisco's descriptions of "Islam" do not, despite your attempt to appear balanced in terms of your figuring, describe actual Islam. The conclusions you've drawn from the soft data provided by polling can be interpreted in several ways but, invariably, you choose the one that paints the entire faith and, by extraction, its adherents in the worst possible light. That's not sound reasoning. It is passionate rather than dispassionate.

So, rather than seeking to insult, I'm simply pointing out that all of you, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, share the same root faith. All your faiths share at least one of the same foundational books and all, ALL, have behaved hideously towards your fellow human beings under the umbrella of "God says I can." None of your faiths are exempt. None of you get to point the finger. Not in the past and not currently.

You are not superior to the Muslims (which is what this thread and your opinions are really about: moral superiority). Not even the ones who hate the US. You are the same as them in the way you interact with reality. Precisely the same. You live in a world with spirits and demons and magical anthropomorphic deities. You make real-world decisions based upon what you believe are the edicts laid down by that deity. None of that qualifies as rational and therefore opinions formed on that basis should not be considered when rationality is required.

It's not an insult to describe you all as magical thinkers. Faith is, by definition, irrational.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Reginald Hudlin on June 22, 2010, 10:52:14 pm


You are not superior to the Muslims (which is what this thread and your opinions are really about: moral superiority). Not even the ones who hate the US. You are the same as them in the way you interact with reality. Precisely the same.

The always brilliant Redjack is really on fire in this thread, but I pulled this quote because THIS is why you're not getting the response you want out of this thread.  You keep looking for affirmation of your moral high ground over Islam and you're not getting it.

Believer or not, too many of see the hypocracies of all religions to co-sign you.  And this is not some "long time ago" thing.  This includes right now.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 22, 2010, 11:09:57 pm
Your and Francisco's descriptions of "Islam" do not, despite your attempt to appear balanced in terms of your figuring, describe actual Islam. The conclusions you've drawn from the soft data provided by polling can be interpreted in several ways but, invariably, you choose the one that paints the entire faith and, by extraction, its adherents in the worst possible light. That's not sound reasoning. It is passionate rather than dispassionate.

You are now lying.  I have never painted Islam with a broad brush; I have consistently recognized that there are different strains of Islam. The numbers speak for themselves. The data, that I cited above, indicates that the majority of Muslims do not support the Jihadist's 9/11 attacks and similar acts of terrorism, and certainly "all" do not. The mystical Sufis certainly do not. It just so happens that we are talking about a massive population base, 1.3 billion individuals, so that even a fraction of that population results in an incredibly large absolute number of people who are supporters of Jihadist terrorism.

Look at your emotional response. I say emotional as revealed in your need to openly distort what I have said, also revealed in your truly intolerant attitude toward people of faith and your need to lump all strains of all contemporary religious faiths together as though they were indistinguishable. Tainting the innocent and whitewashing the guilty with one broad brush. Geoff, your understanding is incredibly superficial, and your attitude hostile. Anti-religious bigotry is a form of bigotry; it represents the antithesis of the principle of religious tolerance that our Nation was founded on.

I've said repeatedly that I wish the current geopolitcal threat we are now facing, supplanting Nazism and Communism, did not originate from the strain of a religious faith. It is much easier to go after a totalitarian secular philosphy and those who advocate it. You know, those folks who didn't believe in "magic" but somehow still managed to murder tens and tens and tens of millions of innocent people.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 22, 2010, 11:29:49 pm

You are not superior to the Muslims (which is what this thread and your opinions are really about: moral superiority). Not even the ones who hate the US. You are the same as them in the way you interact with reality. Precisely the same.

The always brilliant Redjack is really on fire in this thread, but I pulled this quote because THIS is why you're not getting the response you want out of this thread.  You keep looking for affirmation of your moral high ground over Islam and you're not getting it.

Believer or not, too many of see the hypocracies of all religions to co-sign you.  And this is not some "long time ago" thing.  This includes right now.

I would hope that most of us hold the moral high ground over the Jihadist terrorists and their supporters.

Really, Reginald, you can do better than that. You are now resorting to the same lie as Redjack, substituting "Islam" whenever I make reference to the Jihadists and their supporters. They are not one and the same. I would have expected more from you.     

On this Forum, for the most part I'm getting the response I anticipated: Apologia and whitewash.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 23, 2010, 12:28:54 am
Michael. You refuse to distinguish between the people who SAY things and the people who DO things. That means, despite your "agreeing" that Islam, on the whole, is not very evil, you're still tarring a significant portion of the Muslim population, millions, with the terrorist brush. There is nothing to support that, not even these polls.

Polls are about talking and that is all. Once again, if the numbers of Muslims who THINK negatively about the US and the WEST was anywhere near the number of those who DO things to hurt us you'd have a point.

It's not, so you don't. The reason you're alarmed about all of this is because you filter all the data of that region through your Faith-colored goggles. Some of us aren't so encumbered and so do not lean towards the extreme interpretation of the data that you are presenting.

While 9/11 was a hideous tragedy perpetrated by self-described Muslims, the fact is there were only 19 of them. Even if you extrapolate out their support mechanism to 1000 Muslim extremists, that's still not a number high enough to warrant much attention. Most of the subsequent terrorists have not been part of cells but have been lone gunmen. Nutjobs. Tim McVeigh and his extended pack of loonies are a much more significant threat to this country and NO ONE is squawking about them even though it's a proven fact that as economic hardship increases, fascistic and racist groups gain membership and boldness.

The bottom line is you're living in fear of these hordes (anything over 1000 counts as a horde I think) of angry misguided people but you have no evidence outside a couple of polls to support that fear. So what's fueling it? There are no barbarians at these gates or, if there are, there are so many varieties of barbarian that the Muslim ones can take a number. We'll get to them.

People are allowed to hate us. They're just not allowed to DO anything about it.

So far nearly no Muslims have done ANYTHING to hurt the US or its citizens. Why should we be overly concerned about them? Millions of Americans are Muslims.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on June 23, 2010, 06:03:38 am
After the oklahoma and atlanta bombings, the clown that flew a plane into an irs building, anthrax, Holocaust Memorial in DC, and numerous others that happen here in US soil you would think that maybe just maybe we are taking things too far over.

Here is a treat  ;D

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9236/militant_extremists_in_the_united_states.html

Quote
Yes, according to U.S. law enforcement officials. The September 11 attacks—the biggest and deadliest terrorist plot ever executed in the United States—were carried out by foreigners, but the twenty-four terrorist incidents that occurred between 2002 and 2005 were carried out by domestic extremists, according to the FBI.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: moor on June 23, 2010, 06:44:25 am
using editorials to win your argument reaks of intellectual dishonesty

Not sure what you mean here, Gooch.

I have to agree with Gooch, on both sides, this issue is barely treading water.  I'm literally reading the same argument having just transposed the wording.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Gooch on June 23, 2010, 06:54:54 am
using editorials to win your argument reaks of intellectual dishonesty

Not sure what you mean here, Gooch.

Some of the sources Michael cited
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 23, 2010, 07:22:13 am
Gooch, yes it is very "intellectually dishonest" to rely on facts cited in an article, and on what was probably the most extensive poll of Muslims in the world. Reliance on facts ... intellectually dishonest. Oh brother. I would hope, in response to your comment, that Reginald Hudlin will take your words to heart and cease posting editorials.

Actually Moor, I agree there is nothing more productive to be said. The same thing on this thread is now being said over and over again. I've already explained my position clearly. We'll see what happens throughout the Middle East, Iran, Pakistan, Europe and yes, here at home, over the next 20 years. To see the extent to which that hate is transformed into action, again. Those of you who wish to believe that the global Islamist movement is nothing but a figment of my imagination (or for the antisemites amoung you, the "Jewish" imagination) go right ahead. Nothing anyone can say will change your mind.

By the way, my hat is off to the FBI and Department of Homeland Security personnel who prevented major terrorist attacks in the United States after September 11th.

I've also responded to what Reginald posted. Nothing more to say to him either.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on June 23, 2010, 07:39:25 am
Those of you who wish to believe that the global Islamist movement is nothing but a figment of my imagination (or for the antisemites amoung you, the "Jewish" imagination) go right ahead.


Heh. ;D
That remark didn't take long to put out there...

...or did you accuse any of us several threads ago?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 23, 2010, 09:37:21 am
The issue here (and not necessarily elsewhere) isn't Jewish-ness. It's Beleiver-ness.

We have data that says a reasonably significant population of Muslims has real antipathy for the US and the West. No one is arguing that these people were lying when they expressed themselves. LOTS of people in the so-called 3rd World have MASSIVE antipathy for the West. The West has been f*cking them over for centuries. They would be MORONS if they didn't, on some level, hate us a little bit.

We have data that there are radical Madrassa's and underground terrorist groups that recruit people from all economic brackets to to function as soldiers or bombers in what they consider to be a war. No argument there.

The disconnect comes when we make the leap that the two things are automatically connected and that the larger group, the ones who verbally express negative feelings about the West, have either the time or the inclination to assist the terrorists in anything like a meaningful way. There is NO EVIDENCE that they are helping them. There is, in fact, ample evidence that the "Islamist" or "Jihadist" movement is either remaining static in its percentage among muslims or, in fact shrinking.

The fastest growing religion on Earth is Islam. If the percentage of Islamist terrorists is not rising at the same rate as that of general membership in that faith, the conclusion MUST be that, regardless of answers to polling questions, REAL-WORLD SUPPORT for Jihadist terror is not catching on.

As I've said repeatedly: I don't have any particular affection for Islam. I don't have any particular dislike of Christianity or Judaism. To me they're all the same thing. What i don't like is cracks like "They worship a monkey god" or the implication that they are all or even that a lot of them are waiting to crash planes into our buildings or gas us in our subways. There are simply too many decent, law-abiding, patriotic people in this country who happen to be Muslims for these fears of the global jihadist boogeyman to hold too much weight.

It's a serious issue, yes. Absolutely something to keep an eye on. But getting alarmed about it? Considering it to be on the level of the Cold War?

No. That is too far.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 23, 2010, 11:04:42 pm
Geoff, I see you at least acknowledge some of the facts that are beyond dispute regarding the global Islamist Movement.  But you still fail to see the difference between individuals expressing opposition to some policies of the United States, or even feeling antipathy toward the United States (a separate question in the poll), and affirmatively stating that the terrorist murder of thousands of innocent civilians in the most brutal way imaginable is justified. The significance I place on this distinction, which you do not, lies to the core of our disagreement. 

I also differ with you on your roseate picture of developments in the Islamic world. We see developments in Turkey, and elsewhere, and they do not comport with your happy picture. Nor should one place great comfort in a mere change in tactics by some jihadist theoreticians to rely on infiltration of the West (as part of a two-pronged approach, or as a temporary suspension of terrorist attacks). This infiltration strategy should, in fact, give us reason for pause.

But, in any event, we will never agree on this issue. That is clear. Further discussion will result in nothing but further repetition.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on June 24, 2010, 01:38:44 am
Infiltration.

And exactly how would we guard against this "infiltration," Michael? How exactly could we differentiate between normal Muslims and those who are out to kill us? There is only one way to be "safe" and that is to target ALL Muslims.

But what do they look like? What countries do they come from? What languages do they speak?

America is not, despite some political parties wanting it to go that way, a police state.

I don't agree with those people who think 9/11 was justified. I think it was hideous and, ultimately, meaningless if the goal was to scare us (it didn't) or to get us to stop supporting Israel (we didn't) or to leave the Muslim world alone to get on with its own affairs (we won't).

But, again, one would have to be a complete moron not to understand the very legitimate POV that allows someone from that side of the world to look at the US and think we deserve a smack for all the crap we dish out. Such people don't have to be Jihadists.  I hated Boers for decades. I couldn't even hear the accent without wanting to beat one of those monsters senseless with a baseball bat.

But I didn't.

However, when the odd African blew up some of the Apartheid-Supporting cops or murdered one or two in a tavern, I was not only fine with it, I took it as a score for our side.

Was i right to feel that way? That's up to me.  Did feeling that way cause me to send one dime to the ANC or to any of the various guerilla groups that sprang up to fight the system there? Nope. Not a penny.

Sympathy and attitudes, even ones we hate, are the right of every human being. You don't line people up for what they think about a subject, even if it's horrible. You only line them up when they DO something that crosses the line.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of Muslims have never crossed the line so there's neither the reason nor the right to treat them as if they have.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on June 25, 2010, 04:40:57 am
I am simply stating an inconvenient fact that some would rather not hear. The infiltration tactic is openly advocated by an influential theoretician respected by Al Qaeda. This is a fact. A war is fought on many fronts.

Anyone who justifies the terrorist attack against the World Trade Center will likely support Islamists in their home country as well, empowering those who wish to impose Sharia at home and jihadist activity overseas.

As a Jihadist sympathizer one can affect policy by one's vote if given the opportunity, by one's expression of support for Islamist movements, by how one spins the news in the Media, by the programming provided on television and radio, by the slanted films produced, the books written, by efforts to undermine the existing non-Islamist government, by mass rallies, by the military and intelligence services one funds (in an Islamist state) and/or infiltrates (in a non-Islamist state or a state one wishes to further radicalize), by the nuclear bombs one builds once in power or that are seized once power is captured, by the funding of funamentalist mosques and other institutions and groups that advocate the narrow rigid Islamist interpretation of the Faith, by the creation of a network of front organizations and charities, as well as by the military and terrorist activities one directly engages in.

Geoff, of course by the expression of attitudes and opinions, and through other means, a large number of people (or even a relatively smaller percentage of the population that is dedicated) can have a significant effect. Your assertion that attitudes have no real-world effect does not comport with reality. Support for Jihadist terrorism is relevant, when held by enough people. Here, we are talking about a very large absolute number of people, and on average a group of people who are probably more motivated to action than the "silent majority" in terms of expressing their support for their cause. What percentage of Russians were Bolsheviks in 1917?  What percentage of Germans were Nazis in 1933?  What percentage of Chinese were Communists in 1948?

Just think about the relatively small percentage of the poplulation that actively participated in Vietnam Era Anti-War Protests or the Civil Rights Movement, and the effect they had, in influencing opinion, and the effect that opinion shift had. 

I believe that public opinion is important; you apparently do not. I believe that propaganda and hate speech can have an effect; you apparently do not. The Jihadists do not hold to your narrow conception of their struggle. For you, it seems, the only relevant person is the one who pulls the trigger, hijacks the airplane, or ignites the bomb. On this point, we fundamentally disagree. This is, I believe, our second core disagreement on this issue.

With regard to infiltrators and similarly-minded activists and apologists, what should we do? We must keep our eyes and ears open. We must be aware of who is funding whom. And who is affiliated with whom. We must try to discern the motivation of those who seek to undermine efforts to identify terrorists here at home, of those who oppose efforts to counter the spread of radical Islamic ideologies abroad, and of those who condemn efforts to support more moderate Muslim democratic movements in countries like Iran. We must critically discern the agenda of those who promote isolationism, appeasement, and American weakness. We must recognize whitewash when we see it. We must understand what is said for public consumption, and what is said behind closed doors. We must not be intimidated by those who toss vile names at responsible individuals who wish to honestly discuss the threat.

What can we as average Americans do? We need to educate ourselves as to the history and goals of the Jihadists, how their ideology differs from mainstream Islam, and how they have attempted to spread their Islamist ideology worldwide.

Finally, we need to be astute and critical listeners. Despite our good natures and wishful thinking, we must guard against becomming unknowing dupes.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on June 25, 2010, 06:35:07 am
Just think about the relatively small percentage of the poplulation that actively participated in Vietnam Era Anti-War Protests or the Civil Rights Movement, and the effect they had, in influencing opinion, and the effect that opinion shift had. 
Of course those movements had the great virtue of being right. Call me crazy but I really don't think there is much chance of radical Islamist theology becoming mainstream. Or of Islam becoming more than one of the major religions in the US.

Finally, we need to be astute and critical listeners. Despite our good natures and wishful thinking, we must guard against becomming unknowing dupes.
Or oppressive alarmists. I agree with the astute and critical part though.

I have faith in our country's ability to discern and protect our national interests. It is necessarily a messy process.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 02, 2010, 06:11:42 pm
Curtis, I believe you are being unrealistic.  A very significant percentage (some say as high as 80%) of mosques in the United States receive funding from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi view of Islam, Wahabism, was traditionally viewed as an extremist fundamentalist strain of the faith. However, after WWI, when they captured the Muslim holy places and later were “blessed” with incredible oil wealth, they proceeded to export their ideology worldwide. This penetration had been taking place for decades. Academic institutions in the United States receive massive funding from the Saudis, distorting Middle East Studies programs, and thus distorting the advice given by academics to our Government. We saw an example of this in the distorted spin in the Gallop study discussed above. Which must give us some pause, if we believe our Government is truly in a position to protest us – while listening to advisors who are beholden to the Saudis for their paychecks.

9/11 Eight Years Later
Walid Pharis
http://204.96.138.161/upload/wysiwyg/article%20pdfs/NSPP1/Stanton%20Book%20-%2004%20Phares.pdf

Relevant quotes:

Denial is the quickest and surest pathway to defeat.  If this confrontation is not about Jihadist ideology, then there no “war of ideas.” If there is no ideology to foment Jihad, then there is no Jihad. To suggest otherwise in the face of a vast and growing body of evidence to the contrary, amounts to sociopolitical suicide. If we will but acknowledge the ideology that continually spawns new Jihadists and the Jihad, we will already be halfway down the road to victory. We must begin to focus our attention and efforts on the ideology. We must learn everything there is to know about the ideology so we can field effective ideological countermeasures.



Those of us fighting the War of Ideas have gone back and forth trying to figure out what is going on. We are in a war with the terrorists, but every time we come close to identifying the Jihadi and Saflifists or the Jihadi Khomeinists as an ideological threat to our national security there is a blockade in Washington, DC and Brussels. I understand this to be the phenomenon that transformed the war from an offensive struggle during the first two years, to a stalemate fought in the trenches. 

What kept the United States from completing the task of flushing the Jihadists who had penetrated our defenses? What kept us from supporting other friends of democracy and the primary victims of Jihad, women and minorities? We were not permitted to identify the ideological nature of the battle because as it is the ideology of al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Jamaa Islamiya, and the Taliban, it is also the ideology of the oil-producing regimes that have been funding its propagation for decades.  If we try to project democracy in the region, we threaten those interests as well.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 03, 2010, 09:37:07 am
This is because you've missed the point of the "war of ideas."

AMERICA is the idea. You can't win the war of ideas by changing America into something other than what it is.  One of the things we are is the bastion of freedom of thought and speech. ANYONE can think or say anything here, however bizarre or hateful, and they get to continue their lives unmolested provided they abide by the Law.

The draconian nation you would require to ferret out the Evil Thinkers that fright you so much would transform us into Israel, i.e., a nation under siege that must function as an armed camp exercising deFacto apartheid in order to keep itself safe. Bush/Chaney did what they could to get us there and, as a result, thousands of us have died in two ridiculous, useless conflicts that have made things worse for us and the world, rather than better. As a result, our basic civil rights have been eroded by the unconstitutional Patriot Act.

A population living in fear is capable of HORRIBLE things. We are too powerful a force in the world to succumb to that level of fear.

We are not that nation. Frankly, despite our many historical (and current) faults, we are a better nation.  Superior in every way. The second we become that nation we stop being America and lose the "War of Ideas." This planet, the human species, cannot afford that loss.

This nation is this planet's best hope for equality and uplift, you can see why a room full of people who are the offspring of the architects of that status would take a dim view of any calls for police actions based on Orwellian Thought Crime.

There is no evidence of action taken by these masses of people that don't like us that warrants the level of paranoia and hysteria you advocate. If you want us that scared, your boogeymen will REALLY have to step up their game.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Curtis Metcalf on July 03, 2010, 01:44:43 pm
Well stated, Redjack.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 03, 2010, 10:45:24 pm
Yes, living in denial is so much more comfortable ... for the time being.

Though I doubt you really care, moderate Muslims are also the victims here. 

Triple Suicide Bombing in Pakistan Kills 40
Attack During Late-Night Prayers Targets Shrine of Majority Sufis; Officials See Backlash Among Moderate Muslims

Wall Street Journal
By TOM WRIGHT And ZAHID HUSSAIN
July 2, 2010

ISLAMABAD—Three suicide bombers blew themselves up inside a popular Sufi shrine in the eastern Pakistan city of Lahore on Thursday, killing at least 40 people, a brutal continuation of attacks by extremists targeting followers of one of Pakistan's popular and more moderate versions of Islam.

Thousands of devotees were inside the Data Gunj Bakhsh complex, a turquoise-domed shrine to an 11th-century Persian Sufi saint, when two bombers detonated themselves inside the marbled hall. A third attack took place outside the gate, police and witness said.

The attackers threw grenades on the crowd as it concluded late-night prayers, and then detonated themselves. Pakistani television showed images of blood smeared on the shrine's marble floor. "There was a huge blast and there was complete pandemonium," a witness told private GEO TV news.

Investigators and security officials at the Data Gunj Bakhsh complex in Lahore, Pakistan, after three suicide bombers attacked the Sufi shrine during late-night prayers Thursday.

In addition to the 40 dead, some 175 were injured, a city official said. Rescue workers said the toll could rise given the number of the wounded who were critically injured.

The shrine, of the Persian Sufi saint Syed Ali Hajwairi, is known for colorful festivals in which dervishes dance, a practice deemed un-Islamic by hard-line Sunni militants. Members of the militant Islamist Taliban consider Sufis, who constitute the majority of Pakistan's population, as heretics and have regularly attacked Sufi shrines.

Police said they suspect Taliban were behind Thursday's attack; no group immediately claimed responsibility.

The attack was the second on a religious site in Pakistan's second-largest city within a month. In late May, militants with assault rifles and grenades attacked a pair of Lahore mosques belonging to the tiny Ahmadi sect, killing more than 95 people.

Al Qaeda-linked extremists, who follow an austere, Saudi Arabian-inspired version of the faith, have stepped up attacks against adherents of several strains of Islam.

Among them is the more moderate Sufi strain, which is widespread in Pakistan and can be either Sunni or Shia, and puts emphasis on the mystical nature of the faith. The Taliban was suspected of blowing up the shrine of a 17th-century Sufi poet in March last year. No one died in that incident.

Sectarian groups have also for years singled out members of Pakistan's minority Shia community. In February, militants hit a Shia religious procession in Karachi, the financial capital, killing more than 20 people.

The Pakistan Taliban have also stepped up suicide bomb attacks on shops, police stations and government buildings in Lahore and other cities in the past year, in retaliation for a Pakistan army offensive against their strongholds in the northwest.

Other groups, including Punjabi-based militants financed and trained by Pakistan military intelligence in the 1990s to fight against India in Kashmir, have also stepped up attacks on targets inside the country.

Government and security officials say that as ordinary Pakistanis become increasingly weary of regular attacks, militants could become subject to backlash from the country's more moderate majority.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 03, 2010, 11:35:40 pm
let me get this straight.

the taliban are the minority who are angry at the majority of moderate muslims in pakistan of which group the largest majority is the Suffis who the taliban REALLY hate.

They keep attacking the shrines of the more numerous group, killing members of the majority with whom they disagree which is making the majority both bored with them and increasingly unhappy and will cause them to start to kick back at the taliban.

And why is any of this my problem?

From your own description, in Pakistan, at least, it seems the taliban's tactics are backfiring.


Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 04, 2010, 10:29:43 am
Yes, the radicals who support 9/11 and Jihadist terrorism are the minority of Muslims worldwide, albeit a large absolute number of people and a supportive base.  A minority can still do significant damage.  As took place and is taking place in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq and Iran. Those strongly holding minority views can destabilize and even take over governments, as you well know. Those who are steeped in radical neo-Wahabi ideology, one of the most extremist strains of Sunni Islam out there, or who are adherents to the Khomeinist view of Shia Islam, pose a very real threat, both to moderate Muslims and to members of other faiths, as well as to those of us in the West and particularly in the United States.

All I am objecting to is willful ignorance, denial, apologia and whitewash.  While Jihadists may use respect for "religion" to cloak their activities, that does not mean that we are required to wear blinders or support the agenda of those who wish to forcibly blind us.

As to why you should give a sh*t about anyone but yourself ... well, I really don't care whether you do or you don't. Your attitude and admitted uninvolvement with helping others (as in your reference to South Africa years ago), is reflective of your perspective. It is a perspective that we do not share.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 04, 2010, 10:41:08 am
What is your game plan, Michael?

Right now all I'm seeing is a guy who wants us all to be scared of something that, frankly, isn't that scary and is not a direct physical threat to us or our well-being.

I've pitched in plenty over the years, thank-you very much. More than any five people you might meet, I'll wager. But I can tell the difference between an American problem and an Indian one. Some things are none of our business. Not unless we'd welcome, oh, Belarus, unilaterally sending troops to Idaho to ferret out all the armed white supremecists there "on our behalf."

Pakistanis blowing up Pakistanis is a Pakistani problem and, as your own article seems to say, the Pakistanis are on the verge of handing out a fairly severe smackdown.

According to you I'm meant to be fearful of a group of people I can't separate from the others who share similar views, ethnicities and nationalities based solely on what those people THINK and what they SAY.

Describe your game plan for isolating the people who DO things from those who SAY things or THINK things [that I might not like] and you will have, at the least, a BEGINNING of a conversation.

Right now all I see is the foundation being laid for across-the-board bigotry and persecution and, in this "room" at least, that dog won't hunt. Been there. Done that.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 04, 2010, 04:14:48 pm
I'm frankly sick and tired of the cry of "bigotry" against anyone who condemns the Jihadist ideology that has driven the September 11th attacks, the suicide bombings, the beheadings, the persecution and killings of religious and ethnic minorities, the enslavement of fellow human beings, outright genocide, the intimidation and killing of moderate Muslims, and the oppression of women. The enemy has no difficulty in identifying who were are. Yet we wriggle and squirm and claim we are fighting some vague war against a tactic ("terrorism") instead of against a vicious bigoted totalitarian ideology.

If one is not willing to even acknowledge Jihadist Ideology for what it is, and acknowledge that worldwide it is not some trivial insignificant thing, in the same way that most were able recognize the ideologies of Nazism and Communism, then there is no starting point. Condemnation of Jihadism should be viewed as a moral imperative comparable to the condemnation of Racism. That is what I am calling for.

Whether or not many, or only a few, on the Forum agree with me is ... not very significant. Fortunately, one or two people on the Hudlin Entertainment Forum are not the arbiters of basic human decency in this world.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 04, 2010, 04:17:06 pm
So....

 No actual solution to the problem of separating people who TALK and THINK hateful things from those who DO something about those thoughts.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 04, 2010, 04:54:57 pm
Those who propagandize or work behind the scenes or provide funding to further the cause of Jihad, to further its spread, as well as to further specific terrorist operations, need to be monitored. Both in the United States and abroad. Before actual operations are implemented. As to the specifics, I would leave that to the experts with the Department of Homeland Security, and overseas with the CIA, the military, and sister organizations in other nations. Strong support for moderate Muslims in the greater Middle East, and both overt and covert support for more liberal pro-democracy movements, is also very important.

For the broader public, what I am calling for is education and awareness.

When dealing with other racist or bigoted groups, you have no reservations in this regard. Jihadism should be treated not differently than any other extremist ideology of hate.

In any event, no doubt you will insist on the last word ... you always do. So have it.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 04, 2010, 05:50:56 pm
you're going to have to find a quote where i said it was okay to round up people who think things i don't like or, in your case, people who think things similar to those who think things i don't like. otherwise accusing me of having some weird double standard when it comes to jihadists (which, even in this thread, it's clear i don't) is unsupported.

i don't actually give a damn about jihadists one way or the other. but i care about the wellbeing of innocent people, millions of them, who happen to share superficial characteristics in common with jihadists.

the leader of your little tea party referred to Allah as a "monkey god." That's not only faith-based bigotry, it's racist against, that's right, folks like me.

it's going to be difficult to drum up support for that amongst a group of people who've been under that shadow for quite some time.

i don't need the last word. the first ones won this "debate." what i would like is for you to open your eyes and, just for a little while at first, try and see the world through a lens that isn't one of  faith.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Kristopher on July 05, 2010, 02:16:04 pm
Damn y'all, come on, now.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 05, 2010, 03:18:41 pm
I've heard no reservations on this Forum with regard to closely monitoring white racist hate groups in the United States. I have heard only the contrary, that such groups (rightly) merit very close watching. The same standard should be applied to the Jihadists.

It is a common tactic for terrorists and radicals to hide among a more moderate population with "similar characteristics" (as you say). As a dramatic example, the Jihadists' use of human shields is well known, as is their use of the moderate majority to shield their activities in the United States. By doing so, they are doing a grave disservice to the majority of Muslims in America who do not support their hatred and violence. At the same time, the Jihadist radicals are always on the lookout for impressionable individuals, including converts who may lack the sophistication to understand the nuances of Islam and the different strains of thought in that faith (particularly when they are exposed only to the heavily-financed fundamentalist Wahabi version that portrays itself as the only legitimate interpretation of Islamic doctrines).

Finally, Geoff, your repeated references to my "faith" are wholly misplaced (revealing your own agenda). One does not have to be a person of faith to be opposed to bigotry, hatred, acts of terrorism (including those that took place on September 11th), suicide bombings, mass murder, genocide in Africa and planned genocides elsewhere, slavery in Sudan, religious persecution of non-Muslims and moderate Muslims, fatwas of death, beheadings, oppression of women, and totalitarianism. One just has to be a person with open eyes, not blinded by the Jihadist propaganda and attempts to sidetrack the focus away from the Jihadist threat. Osama bin Laden has stated that America is "innahum tajammuh umam" - a "gathering of nations" not a true nation. A part of the Islamist stragegy is to infiltrate, divide and conquer, by weakening America from the inside.  If your comments regarding the views of other readers on this forum were correct, it would reveal to extent to which this stragegy has proven successful. However, I don't think you give forum members sufficient credit.

And of course, I actively condemned the racist and bigoted comment that you allude to, as you well know, as any decent person should. Long ago the moronic "monkey-god" comment was bypassed on this thread, to discuss more serious matters. That you would attribute his attitude to me is absurd, and you of course know that as well. Looks like you'll use any tactic to divert attention from what we are now discussing.

But hey, wait, maybe I've got it all wrong.  Lemme think, lemme try to open my eyes, without the use of any lense
I SEE! I SEE THE TRUTH! AT LAST! ... 

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
The Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
The Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in
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Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
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Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
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Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in ...

(http://www.historylink.org/db_images/hair.JPG)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 06, 2010, 10:57:08 pm
I wasn't planning on posting any more on this topic, but then tonight ran across this article that is quite relevant to our discussion. So, in case you are interested:

Terror — and Candor
The administration’s denial of “radical Islam” is dangerous, dishonest, and demoralizing.


Charles Krauthammer
July 2, 2010 12:00 A.M.

The Fort Hood shooter, the Christmas Day bomber, the Times Square attacker. On May 13, the following exchange occurred at a hearing of the House Judiciary Committee:

Rep. Lamar Smith (R.,Texas): Do you feel that these individuals might have been incited to take the actions that they did because of radical Islam?

Attorney General Eric Holder: There are a variety of reasons why I think people have taken these actions. . . .

Smith: Okay, but radical Islam could have been one of the reasons?

Holder: There are a variety of reasons why people—

Smith: But was radical Islam one of them?

Holder: There are a variety of reasons why people do these things. Some of them are potentially religious-based.

Potentially, mind you. This went on until the questioner gave up in exasperation.

A similar question arose last week in U.S. District Court when Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square attacker, pleaded guilty. Explained Shahzad: “One has to understand where I’m coming from. . . . I consider myself a mujahid, a Muslim soldier.”

Well, that is clarifying. As was the self-printed business card of Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter, identifying himself as “SoA”: Soldier of Allah.

Holder’s avoidance of the obvious continues the absurd and embarrassing refusal of the Obama administration to acknowledge who out there is trying to kill Americans and why. In fact, it has banned from its official vocabulary the terms “jihadist,” “Islamist,” and “Islamic terrorism.”

Instead, President Obama’s National Security Strategy insists on calling the enemy — how else do you define those seeking your destruction? — “a loose network of violent extremists.” But this is utterly meaningless. This is not an anger-management therapy group gone rogue. These are people professing a powerful ideology rooted in a radical interpretation of Islam, in whose name they propagandize, proselytize, terrorize, and kill.

Why is this important? Because the first rule of war is to know your enemy. If you don’t, you wander into intellectual cul-de-sacs and ignore the real causes that might allow you to prevent recurrences.

The Pentagon report on the Fort Hood shooter runs 86 pages with not a single mention of Hasan’s Islamism. It contains such politically correct inanities as “religious fundamentalism alone is not a risk factor.”

Of course it is. Indeed, Islamist fundamentalism is not only a risk factor. It is the risk factor, the common denominator linking all the great terror attacks of this century — from 9/11 to Mumbai, from Fort Hood to Times Square, from London to Madrid to Bali. The attackers were of various national origin, occupation, age, social class, native tongue, and race. The one thing that united them was the jihadist vision in whose name they acted.

To deny this undeniable truth leads to further absurdities. Remember the wave of speculation about Hasan’s supposedly secondary post-traumatic stress disorder — that he was so deeply affected by the heart-rending stories of his war-traumatized patients that he became radicalized? On the contrary. He was moved not by their suffering but by the suffering they (and the rest of the U.S. military) inflicted on Hasan’s fellow Muslims, in whose name he gunned down 12 American soldiers while shouting “Allahu Akbar.”

With Shahzad, we find the equivalent ridiculous — and exculpating — speculation that perhaps he was driven over the edge by the foreclosure of his home. Good grief. Of course his home went into foreclosure — so would yours if you voluntarily quit your job and stopped house payments to go to Pakistan for jihadist training. As the Washington Post’s Charles Lane pointed out, foreclosure was a result of Shahzad’s radicalism, not the cause.

There’s a final reason why the administration’s cowardice about identifying those trying to kill us cannot be allowed to pass. It is demoralizing. It trivializes the war between jihadi barbarism and Western decency, and diminishes the memory of those (including thousands of brave Muslims — Iraqi, Pakistani, Afghan, and Western) who have died fighting it.

Churchill famously mobilized the English language and sent it into battle. But his greatness lay not just in eloquence but in his appeal to the moral core of a decent people to rise against an ideology the nature of which Churchill never hesitated to define and describe — and to pronounce (“Nahhhhzzzzi”) in an accent dripping with loathing and contempt.

No one is asking Obama or Holder to match Churchill’s rhetoric — just Shahzad’s candor.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 09, 2010, 05:09:13 pm
Yeah. it doesn't add anything.

It's just another guy expressing the opinion that leads to bigotry and persecution of all muslims.

It ain't gonna happen in this country. Too many of us have been under that boot.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 11, 2010, 06:01:14 pm
... and the ... um ... "loose network of violent extremists" ... as the Administration calls 'em ... are only Africa's problem ...

2 bomb attacks in Uganda; 30 feared dead
USA Today
7/11/10
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-07-11-uganda-bombs_N.htm

Turf the terrorists out
Regional powers in the Horn of Africa work towards alternative politics in Somalia, writes Gamal Nkrumah
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2010/1006/re03.htm
7/8/2010

Their victims know who the perpetrators are. They know who their radical Jihadist enemy is. Those of us who pretend that we do not know ... give those extremists tacit support to operate without interference.  By failing to clearly identify the enemy, we fail to shine a bright spotlight on his operations, his fanatic ideology, and his ultimate mission. 

This has nothing to do with bigotry, as moderate Muslims are killed more than any others. If there is any bigotry, it is on the part of those who dismiss the mass murder of moderate Muslims and non-Muslims in Africa, in the Near East, and elsewhere in the world. Moderate Muslims, here and elsewhere, oppose these hateful Jihadist terrorists. 

This is about reality, and the maturity to see reality as it is, in order to do meaningful work to change that reality. It will not help, and will do a great deal of harm, to pretend that reality does not exist.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 11, 2010, 06:07:30 pm
I'm still not sure what you're calling for here beyond paranoia, Michael. What more, practically, can we do about these fringe-dwellers PRIOR to any attack that doesn't involve contravening the borders of other nations (ILLEGAL and IMMORAL under ANY circumstance without a declaration of war against or an invitation from the nation in question) or reducing our domestic population to US and THEM?

Once again, those moderate muslims you claim to give a sh*t about are, on the surface, indistinguishable from their more radicalized cousins. The difference exists inside their heads. Exactly how are we supposed to separate them PRIOR to any wrongdoing further than they are, apparently, already separate?

We'd have to round all of "THEM" up or keep all of "THEM" under surveillance. Oh, I know; maybe we could hand out IDs that say "Good Muslim" and "Bad Muslim" so that cops and border personnel can tell at a glance who's who. And then, maybe we could proscribe the movements of Muslims to facilitate easy identification and monitoring. Y'know: maybe only allow them to live and work in certain areas and only allow them to exit those areas when they can PROVE they have business on the Good side. That would make us safer, wouldn't it? And it's a small price to pay for any truly loyal American muslim, right? Why aren't more of them suggesting things like this?

I wonder...

As I've pointed out before, we are NOT under siege in this country. We do NOT take our lives in our hands when we go to public places or to other nations. If you think otherwise you are, simply, WRONG. Americans, in their tens of thousands, go abroad daily. They wander around the planet with the same freedom, ignorance and thickheadness they have always done with little or no consequence.

Once in a long while something unfortunate happens but, PLEASE get this clear, NOT at a higher rate or ratio than those of the awful things that happen here at home. Many, many, many, more of us maim and kill more of us than any fifty cells of radical muslims could hope for in their wildest freaking dreams.

Islam can never and will never erode our Constitution. Christianity has been trying for centuries with almost ZERO success. Islam has no shot. Period.

There has been ONE significant attack by foreign terrorists on this nation's soil. It was hideous, brutal and heartbreaking in every way imaginable but it does not define us nor should it. We are both bigger and better than that single event and we always will be.

Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 11, 2010, 07:55:29 pm
Geoff, equally horrific attacks to those on September 11th were prevented. That does not mean more are not in the works. The Jihadists have made their intentions clear. Their time-frame is not the 24-hour news cycle. Unlike us, they are not wedded to immediate gratification. And their attacks continue worldwide, as does their infiltration. As an example, look to the Pakistani intelligence service. Significant developments are on the horizon ... and they are not good. Nobody likes to talk about "weapons of mass destruction" but we do live in a world in which they do exist, and are proliferating.  Osama bin Laden, and those who agree with him, have made clear that one of their primary goals is to obtain such material.

You tend to go off on silly "strawman" characterizations of what I am saying. I've never once advocated "rounding people up" (only one person on this forum that I recall ever proclaimed that "they should be rounded up" ... and the reference was not to Muslims, but rather to another group he disagrees with ... and I've gotta believe that statment was made in a state of emotion, not to be taken seriously). Nor have I advocated passing out "good Muslim" "bad Muslim" I.D. cards. You are just being silly.

Of course there are intelligence gathering techniques that can be, and should be, used, with human intelligence being the most valuable. But that has not been the main thrust of my comments on this thread, nor is it that my main thrust at all. I will leave that to the experts.

All I am advocating is that we not be afraid to state who the Jihadist enemy is, and what about his ideology we find repugnant (and there is plenty ... that has nothing do with the beliefs held by religious moderate Muslims). In other words, all I am saying is that we should not be afraid to be honest. There is nothing "bigoted" in honestly describing the Jihadist ideology for what it is. While clearly distinguishing that ideology from the faith held by the majority of Muslims who reject that extremism, and who are the primary victims of it.

If we to do so, we would merit greater respect. And have better shot at working with moderate Muslims worldwide in their development of moderate alternatives to that extremism. And things stand now, we just look like a bunch of fools.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Redjack on July 11, 2010, 08:16:16 pm
I'm not being silly.

If you're calling for our intelligence services to do the job they've been tasked with, well, guess what, they are.

If you want to ratchet up the level of hysteria in both the West and the Muslim world AS A WHOLE, he simplest easiest way would be for the leader of the West, a non-Muslim, to stand on a pedestal and start pointing fingers at who and ho is not a "jihadist."

One person's terrorist is another person's activist and it's extremely simplistic thinking to suppose the sort of basic declarations you advocate would do more good than harm. What they would do, in reality, is further cement the ties between those who are on the margins of Muslim society and those in the center. It would FURTHER exacerbate the US vs THEM (ALL of them) mentality that already has too much purchase in too many minds.

I don't make silly arguments, Michael. Not one time, ever, in my life have I made such an argument. Not even when I was a child.

I'm pointing out, by the use of obviously ludicrous examples, the end point of your assertions or the basic illogic of any attempt to bring them into the real world.

America will never see itself as under siege until the entire world is lined up against us and working to bring us down. That's not going to happen and it's certainly not in effect now so calls for increased hysteria and ratcheted up paranoia are, to me, calls for us to actually become the Monster Nation that too many around the world already believe us to be.

Sorry, man. I love my country far too much for that.



Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 11, 2010, 08:51:15 pm
I disagree with you, you disagree with me.  We will never convince one another.

You think I'm paranoid, am fostering bigotry and jeopardizing freedom in America and I think you are whitewashing the scope and magnitude of the threat, denying facts and making it much easier for the Jihadists to operate.

We will never agree.

Honest, why don't we just call it a day. I'm sure at this point nobody else is reading this damned thread anyway.  ::)
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: BmoreAkuma on July 12, 2010, 05:29:33 am
Yep we stopped reading this thread maybe 2 weeks ago or so.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on July 12, 2010, 06:32:31 am
You think I'm paranoid, am fostering bigotry and jeopardizing freedom in America and I think you are whitewashing the scope and magnitude of the threat, denying facts and making it much easier for the Jihadists to operate.


Y'mean, you're not paranoid?   ...or fostering bigotry?  ...jeopardizing freedom in America?




What exactly were you doing here in HEF for the last 3.5 years, mike?
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 12, 2010, 07:52:05 am
3 1/2 years?!!!  I was on the HEF while your mother was still changing your diapers.

Gee Battle, one would think you were trying to hurt my feelings, hahahahaha.  ;D
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on July 12, 2010, 08:07:20 am
3 1/2 years?!!!  I was on the HEF while your mother was still changing your diapers.

Gee Battle, one would think you were trying to hurt my feelings, hahahahaha.  ;D



One thing you should have learned about me here at HEF is that I don't 'hurt anyone's feelings'  ?   
I offer you 'insight'.


Say, maybe you can answer this question for me 'cause I've always wanted to know:

When it comes to certain kinds of discussions dealing with race, politics and (mainly race) why do white folks say things like,

"...I don't wanna hurt your feelings but..."
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: michaelintp on July 13, 2010, 06:39:50 am
3 1/2 years?!!!  I was on the HEF while your mother was still changing your diapers.

Gee Battle, one would think you were trying to hurt my feelings, hahahahaha.  ;D
One thing you should have learned about me here at HEF is that I don't 'hurt anyone's feelings'  ?  
I offer you 'insight'.
Say, maybe you can answer this question for me 'cause I've always wanted to know:
When it comes to certain kinds of discussions dealing with race, politics and (mainly race) why do white folks say things like,
"...I don't wanna hurt your feelings but..."

Battle, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, but do you really believe you are offering insight? ;)

Hahahahahaha! OK, Battle, you've put a smile on my face.  ;D

As to your question regarding white people saying "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." -

First, I've gotta say, if I hear one more silly thing about "white people" on this Forum I think I'm gonna throw up. :P

But, putting that aside, *urp!* ... I would imagine someone says "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." when they are afraid what they are about to say may be disturbing to the other person. If they really are concered about the other person's feelings. Or they want to communicate that they don't have bad intent. Some white folk have been so cowed by the fear of not being politically correct that they feel uncomfortable even talking about controversial issues surrounding race with someone who is black, particularly issues surrounding "problems in the black community" and so on, for fear that they will be unfairly perceived to be racist, or unfairly accused of racism, or racial insensitivity, or some such thing. But really, I dunno. You would have to explain the context of what you are talkin' about.

It is hard for me to identify with this attitude, since I find the concern regarding political correctness when talking to a "person of color" to be patronizing at best and condescending at worst. I don't see why mature adults, as individuals, can't honestly discuss any issue, by just laying the facts, and their opinions, on the table. Race should play no role in causing "self-editing" of the discussions.

I imagine sometimes someone might also say, "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." in reference not to the race of the listener, but rather to what they perceive to be the intelligence of the person they are addressing. Even where both persons of the same race are debating an issue, one might say this to the other ... as a slam on the other person's capacity for insight. Kind of like, "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ... you're a real idiot." The "I don't want to hurt your feelings' is said in a tone of sarcasm.

I would have to know more about the context to figure out what the person was trying to tell you.

I guess it is worth noting that the phrase you cite is different than somone saying "Sorry to tell you this but ..." or "I hate to say this but ..." as those phrases are usually said by someone who really does want to say what he is about to say, and may be saying it in exasperation or ... maybe just with a smirk.
Title: Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
Post by: Battle on July 14, 2010, 06:04:57 am
3 1/2 years?!!!  I was on the HEF while your mother was still changing your diapers.

Gee Battle, one would think you were trying to hurt my feelings, hahahahaha.  ;D
One thing you should have learned about me here at HEF is that I don't 'hurt anyone's feelings'  ?  
I offer you 'insight'.
Say, maybe you can answer this question for me 'cause I've always wanted to know:
When it comes to certain kinds of discussions dealing with race, politics and (mainly race) why do white folks say things like,
"...I don't wanna hurt your feelings but..."

Battle, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, but do you really believe you are offering insight? ;)

Hahahahahaha! OK, Battle, you've put a smile on my face.  ;D

As to your question regarding white people saying "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." -

First, I've gotta say, if I hear one more silly thing about "white people" on this Forum I think I'm gonna throw up. :P

But, putting that aside, *urp!* ... I would imagine someone says "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." when they are afraid what they are about to say may be disturbing to the other person. If they really are concered about the other person's feelings. Or they want to communicate that they don't have bad intent. Some white folk have been so cowed by the fear of not being politically correct that they feel uncomfortable even talking about controversial issues surrounding race with someone who is black, particularly issues surrounding "problems in the black community" and so on, for fear that they will be unfairly perceived to be racist, or unfairly accused of racism, or racial insensitivity, or some such thing. But really, I dunno. You would have to explain the context of what you are talkin' about.

It is hard for me to identify with this attitude, since I find the concern regarding political correctness when talking to a "person of color" to be patronizing at best and condescending at worst. I don't see why mature adults, as individuals, can't honestly discuss any issue, by just laying the facts, and their opinions, on the table. Race should play no role in causing "self-editing" of the discussions.

I imagine sometimes someone might also say, "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ..." in reference not to the race of the listener, but rather to what they perceive to be the intelligence of the person they are addressing. Even where both persons of the same race are debating an issue, one might say this to the other ... as a slam on the other person's capacity for insight. Kind of like, "I don't want to hurt your feelings but ... you're a real idiot." The "I don't want to hurt your feelings' is said in a tone of sarcasm.

I would have to know more about the context to figure out what the person was trying to tell you.

I guess it is worth noting that the phrase you cite is different than somone saying "Sorry to tell you this but ..." or "I hate to say this but ..." as those phrases are usually said by someone who really does want to say what he is about to say, and may be saying it in exasperation or ... maybe just with a smirk.






Nah...

It must be a regional expression 'cause I've only that kind of remark since I arrived in South Carolina several years ago.   I've lived in California, Illinois, Maine, New York,  a bit of Texas, even Mississippi but I've never that expression until I came to South Carolina.