Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Comics => Black Panther => Topic started by: Wakandan561 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:50 pm

Title: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Wakandan561 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:50 pm
I haven't seen any official reviews yet for Doomwar # 4, but if you haven't picked it up, Get it!!!!! This issue was great, we get to see just about everybody in action. We actually get Storm and T'challa interacting a little bit. The Battle scenes between Shuri and the FF and the Doombots was awesome. Plus we finally get to see the Tension that was shown between T'challa and Shuri in Dw # 1 come to a head! and The Ending with Deadpool was genius lol
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 26, 2010, 05:41:34 pm
Well, Storm really didn't "go Hulk" this issue either but she definitely fought very well, though most of it was off-panel, and thus my only complaint.  So much action and we only get snippets of it.  Funny, most of the time Marvel stretches stories that don't need to be stretched, but I definitely wouldn't have minded more action pages here, even if we had another issue..
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Wakandan561 on May 26, 2010, 06:12:30 pm
I kno, I think we will probably get more action in Doomwar # 5, but Maberry made it clear that T'challa won't step into the ring until Doomwar # 6
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Emperorjones on May 26, 2010, 08:00:46 pm
I wasn't that impressed with Doomwar #4. As Kip alluded to, a lot of action took place off-panel or was given to us in bite size, and T'Challa and Reed pretty much stood around the whole issue, and talked without taking action. A big deal was made about Deadpool-with him even on the cover-and then he shows up in like the last two pages? I'm not a fan of Deadpool and don't think he needs to be in the mini at all, but since his inclusion was a selling point for this issue, it felt like a cheat to only have him show up at the end. We also have yet to see Storm truly cut loose. I think she deserves that after being put through the wringer.

I would like to actually see there be a real 'chess' game between Doom and T'Challa, so far Doom has bested T'Challa and the others at every turn. I got mixed feelings about that. On one hand I like the idea of a hero being pushed to his limits, of facing an overwhelming challenge. I think Mr. Maberry has done that part beautifully. I don't want the win to be easy, I want it to be hard, and really show the heart of the heroes. That being said, I was hoping we would see more signs of a comeback for the heroes in this issue, and we got some vague talk about shadow physics and then T'Challa supposedly bringing Deadpool into the game, but I would like to see more of two master strategists checking each other, and using people like pawns. Really that should've been T'Challa doing that instead of Shuri in this issue.

I also find it odd that there would be fighting in NY and the Avengers wouldn't be involved in some form or fashion. If Doom has become such a global threat, it seems like there would be more people lining up to fight him.

The book was fast paced though it felt like filler to me. Nothing really substantial happened in the book, just a bunch of jibber jabber about what each Doom and T'Challa were going to do, without much really being done. The biggest move was Deadpool's appearance, but that was at the end. I don't see how Deadpool can change the game anyway, if Doom is now so powerful.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: stanleyballard on May 26, 2010, 09:37:18 pm
Really enjoyed this issue....this is what the book could have spent years during (even tying in to Doom's appearance back in Black Panther #19 and becoming a sub-plot for years...like a 5 year type deal to make it more dramatic).  Mayberry is bringing the type of threat that T'Challa has not had in years in the form of Doom....this is the type of villain that he needed for quite some time and it is what makes a hero the best...he is judged by the villains who come to challenge him.  Hopefully, there will be an opportunity to create more threats of this caliber for Black Panther.

Think that whole thing with Storm cutting loose has been altered due to the added issue and should come further toward the end...it feels like the book was reworked to some degree as the readership grew and the sold out issues took their attention and caused some pacing to change.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 27, 2010, 02:56:35 am
Wakandan561, agree with what you said.  I think the issue is "less" because it all depends on where we go now.  If the story ends well, this works; if it doesn't, well...

(Don't care for DP either.)
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Vic Vega on May 27, 2010, 08:38:01 am
Now I'm really wondering about the abount of editorial "input" in this mini.

It seems like Mayberry was allowed to have either the X-Men or Deadpool as guest stars but not both at the same time.

It seems weird that the X-Men would just go about thier business after rescuing her. The Panthers could have certainly used them.

Other than that I'm still enjoying this.

Shuri seems to be willing to sacrifice her entire Dora army to get at Doom. T'Challa might be willing to go even farther(If I understand the implications of his mad scientist act).
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Wakandan561 on May 27, 2010, 10:25:53 am
I'm still wondering what Deadpool's purpose is though, I know that T'challa can't think that Deadpool could deffeat Doom By himself, maybe he will serve as a distraction. Plus maberry is supossed to Introduce a "Surprise Guest" in Doomwar # 5 wonder who thats going to be.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Jay on May 27, 2010, 11:04:18 am
I'm still wondering what Deadpool's purpose is though, I know that T'challa can't think that Deadpool could deffeat Doom By himself, maybe he will serve as a distraction. Plus maberry is supossed to Introduce a "Surprise Guest" in Doomwar # 5 wonder who thats going to be.


We'll find out next issue, I gather. However, you must note that Deadpool is crazy and he can't be killed. It was probably his idea to go up to Latervria and bust Doom himself. But me thinks he's there just to get some valuable information for T'Challa and Reed not to actually defeat Doom.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Vic Vega on May 27, 2010, 03:05:05 pm
Deadpool can't be killed and Doom can't reason with him.

Having an unstoppable manaic running around Doom's home killing everybody who he runs into should serve as a distraction for Doom at absolute worst.

Its interesting to note thst while Shuri's rashness has Team Doom off guard, the only person who can actually stop him is T'Challa and his Shadow Physics.

Although I'm not sure I like where this heading for T'Challa personally.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Jay on May 27, 2010, 06:15:14 pm
Deadpool can't be killed and Doom can't reason with him.

Having an unstoppable manaic running around Doom's home killing everybody who he runs into should serve as a distraction for Doom at absolute worst.

Its interesting to note thst while Shuri's rashness has Team Doom off guard, the only person who can actually stop him is T'Challa and his Shadow Physics.

Although I'm not sure I like where this heading for T'Challa personally.

Doom can actually hold Deadpool prisoner if nothing else.

I like where T'Challa is going with this though. Shuri's rashness doesn't have Toom off guard, it seems to me like Doom was expecting it though. If he was really off guard Doom would have been more worried towards the end of that story but it seemed to me Doom was more then ready for Shuri impulse decision.

Shadow Physics?

However, T'Challa was being too analytical. Shuri was right about one thing. They had to be more reactive to the situation at hand. So maybe this time T'Challa will turn the tables on Doom. 
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Naki on May 28, 2010, 03:41:41 am
FYI

DoomWar #4 Review
Doom takes on... Deadpool?
May 26, 2010
by Tyler Parker DoomWar has quickly become a very frustrating book to read. What started as a potentially unique take on both the implications of Vibranium and Dr. Doom himself, has quickly diminished into an overlong bore fest. Let's just be honest – six issues is way too long for this miniseries. It's becoming fairly clear that there was never enough story content to justify six installments of DoomWar and this issue is proof.

I should probably start by saying that Jonathan Maberry is actually a quite talented writer. In the first two issues of the series he displayed his competence of the characters and gave some compelling dialogue to progress the story. The problem now is… well, the story has disappeared. I'm aware that Wakanda is at war with Dr. Doom, but this is the second issue in a row where absolutely nothing has happened.

I'll be fairly amazed if many people make it to the end of this issue without completely losing interest. The most interesting reveal comes at the conclusion of the issue when we witness Black Panther's plan to stop Dr. Doom – Deadpool. Yes, that's right. T'Challa's grand plan and last resort to stop Dr. Doom is to send in Deadpool. It's so absurd that it actually works and was, in my case, laugh inducing. I'm sure that Wade Wilson is only part of T'Challa's scheme, but his inclusion in the story is still unnecessary and feels out of place. It also marks a dramatic shift in the tone of the story. What was once a hard-boiled, gritty tale of war has turned into a book of one-liners featuring Wade. Needless to say, I was quite baffled but also relieved at his appearance. The rest of the book was so boring that Deadpool was almost a welcome respite.

In summation, the first 30 pages of the book showcase the Wakandan forces fighting Doom's new, vibranium-enhanced Doombots. They're losing the battle until suddenly they have the brilliant revelation to use their own vibranium weapons – then they're winning the battle. Then Doom puts on a new helmet and suddenly the good guys are losing again, at which point T'Challa sends in Deadpool. The narrative is unforgivably flawed in this issue and also suffers from some defective logic. I'm guessing that Doom's new helmet was supposed to equip him with more power, but there is no explanation whatsoever.

I was fairly confused by the end of the issue, but I'm not sure I care anymore. At one point I thought this mini-series might be worth a look in the trade department, but I'm not sure about that anymore either. There's always a possibility that Maberry and Eaton can put together an entertaining conclusion to DoomWar, but there's no changing the fact that the middle portion of the story has been fatally squandered.

.IGN Ratings for DoomWar #4.
Rating Description
out of 10 Click here for ratings guide
5.0
OVERALL Meh
(out of 10)
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: 4sake on May 28, 2010, 06:50:27 am
Let's just be honest – six issues is way too long for this miniseries. It's becoming fairly clear that there was never enough story content to justify six installments of DoomWar and this issue is proof.

This I disagree with throw (even throw it IGN who dis anything BP related for past what 5-7 years.. they have point with the rest).. There more enuff story to fill a 6 issue main mini & a few tie-ins (atleast 7-10 tie-in issues), but for what ever reason that not the story we seem to getting here.. So the story is there it just not being written as such for whatever reason.. 
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 28, 2010, 09:40:43 am
First, a lot of stuff happened in the last two issues, mainly, Doom is on to step two of his plans--utilizing the tech with these new Doombots. 

But I again say the problem is that story should have focused on the fighting, instead of showing us snippits of the fight.  People read comics for super-powered fights. 

Yeah, T'challa is being too overly analytical, or too much a General rather than a warrior.  (It's also interesting that this issue, basically says everything T has done since his recovery was wrong-headed.  So much for BP having a plan for everything.)

Sometimes, it comes across as the kid who is uncool and average trying so hard to be Cool and Tough.  He's the kid who is saying "See, look what I did!  I'm cool, I'm tough;  Yes I am!", while all the other kids roll their eyes.  All this planning, all his scheming; he's trying too hard.  Writers need to stop obsessing on "the plans" and get to the action. (And this isn't the first time I've felt this.)
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Kimoyo on May 28, 2010, 03:31:18 pm
...But I again say the problem is that story should have focused on the fighting, instead of showing us snippits of the fight.  People read comics for super-powered fights. 

Yeah, T'challa is being too overly analytical, or too much a General rather than a warrior.  (It's also interesting that this issue, basically says everything T has done since his recovery was wrong-headed.  So much for BP having a plan for everything.)

Sometimes, it comes across as the kid who is uncool and average trying so hard to be Cool and Tough.  He's the kid who is saying "See, look what I did!  I'm cool, I'm tough;  Yes I am!", while all the other kids roll their eyes.  All this planning, all his scheming; he's trying too hard.  Writers need to stop obsessing on "the plans" and get to the action. (And this isn't the first time I've felt this.)

Amen brother, Aaaaymen!

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Emperorjones on May 29, 2010, 04:34:17 am
I feel what Kip is saying, but I don't totally agree. I think he is generalizing why people read comics. I think a lot of people read comics or other books for conflict, regarding comics its not always about super powered fights. There are successful comics out there, many in the Vertigo line, that don't have superheroes at all in them, like Scalped. Same with stuff like Walking Dead. Or other horror/sci-fi/or crime books.

It's conflict, whether internal or external for characters that keeps many people reading and coming back. As I said previously, I do agree that way too much action was off stage. But I disagree that a lot happened in issue 4. Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War. I really think its a bit much after Siege anyway. The same could be said for Fall of the Hulks. Too much crap happening at one time diminishes the impact of Doom War, the event I cared most about, but has gotten the shortest shrift compared to Siege and Hulks. And now the Heroic Age is upon us.

After reading more comments on this board, I'm even less sanguine about Issue #4 and this storyline. Even if the editorial board forced an extension of this series, I think they should make each issue relevant and present some type of change or challenge for the main characters. To some extent this was done I guess with T'Challa starting to at least talk about shadow physics. It would've been nice to actually see him do something about it, to actually begin experimenting with it as a closer as opposed to the Deadpool conclusion. Deadpool should've been more in the book itself since he was on the cover and his appearance had been hyped. What some other posters have suggested about the T'Challa-Storm face time is right on. I can also understand the argument that nothing the X-Men or FF have done couldn't have been done by a Wakandan.

Doom War was awesome at first, but now its becoming unraveled to me. At this point, I'm enjoying Flags of our Fathers more. It doesn't rely on unnecessary cameos and doesn't feel bloated. The Nazis' motivations are clear and their actions have been for the most part. I know that Doom is generally grandiose, but I think these creatures he's created are a bit much as is the way he seemed to want to conquer the world. There are other ways of doing that, economics, technology, bioweapons, etc. than just brute force. How about creating an economic/political system so enticing that people will flock to it? Or founding a new religion, or something. Take it to another level. If Doom is so great, why does he do the same old beat you into submission stuff? Don't get me wrong, I like action as much as the next person, but I would like to see something from Doom that lives up to his hype. Admittedly I've never been much of a Doom or FF fan. Though I've always liked Doom's costume and how he sometimes speaks in third person. Plus, he has one of the coolest names ever. But I've never followed his stories. So, I had hoped despite the title that T'Challa and the Wakandans would be the center of the story, but they are guest stars at best among an ensemble featuring the FF and X-Men, and might be further eclipsed by Deadpool in Issue #5. I'm curious to see how Maberry pulls it all together. I think he is a talented writer and I liked what he did as a run-up to Doom War, but my interest has waned in the series the more its focused on Doom pontificating at the expense of making this at least a shared major event for T'Challa as well, where we can see great moments and game changing character developments or actions for him too.

I wish that Doom War had remained its original length and packed more punch into each installment, like War of the Supermen did. Though the Superman books did suffer from rushed battles and off-stage action as well, I guess to fit within a four issue miniseries. With War of the Supermen at least Superman/Kal-El stayed the main character despite it being about the "Supermen". I wish Doom War had kept T'Challa as the main character, since it was originally billed as a Black Panther event and the rebooted series pretty much was the prologue for it.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: KIP LEWIS on May 29, 2010, 04:51:59 am
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".

<<Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War.>>

A lot did happen, but they rushed over the "lot" to get to the techno-babble.  See normally in this stage 2 senerio, the heroes struggle for an issue or two to try and stop the villain from using what he stole in stage 1.  They use this stage to build suspense that this is "BAD".  But JM jumped stage 2 and had the heroes immediately fight the "new" Doombots and thus you lost that feeling of danger.  So I think we're both right.  Stuff happened to move the story forward, but it wasn't the best way to build the story flow.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Open palm on June 04, 2010, 07:30:22 pm
I haven't had much time to fully read this issue. I came back from Hawaii and I'm busy preparing for my move 'Down Under'.

Action-wise it wasn't as spectacular as the previous issues. Maybe the conservative use of space denies some great parts more flare. Having the Thing wrap some Vibranium around his fists was cool, but maybe it needed that "Image Comics" touch. The same could have been done with Shuri appearing in her battle armor.

There's a lull in the plot, as we see Doom still winning against them. I like how Shuri's persistence ironically is standing up to Doom's plans. Pointing out that Doom is a day away from winning is a nice touch. But I love seeing how T'Challa thinks like a war leader while Mr. Fantastic is still very much a scientist. He pulls the same stunt Batman did when he hired Mirror Master to betray Lex Luthor. Deadpool was irritating, but it proves how far T'Challa is willing to go. Maybe if we knew how Doom will act with this new Vibranium power would help build the suspense. For now it's just tit-for-tat.
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Seven on June 07, 2010, 11:45:51 am
I feel what Kip is saying, but I don't totally agree. I think he is generalizing why people read comics. I think a lot of people read comics or other books for conflict, regarding comics its not always about super powered fights. There are successful comics out there, many in the Vertigo line, that don't have superheroes at all in them, like Scalped. Same with stuff like Walking Dead. Or other horror/sci-fi/or crime books.

It's conflict, whether internal or external for characters that keeps many people reading and coming back. As I said previously, I do agree that way too much action was off stage. But I disagree that a lot happened in issue 4. Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War. I really think its a bit much after Siege anyway. The same could be said for Fall of the Hulks. Too much crap happening at one time diminishes the impact of Doom War, the event I cared most about, but has gotten the shortest shrift compared to Siege and Hulks. And now the Heroic Age is upon us.

After reading more comments on this board, I'm even less sanguine about Issue #4 and this storyline. Even if the editorial board forced an extension of this series, I think they should make each issue relevant and present some type of change or challenge for the main characters. To some extent this was done I guess with T'Challa starting to at least talk about shadow physics. It would've been nice to actually see him do something about it, to actually begin experimenting with it as a closer as opposed to the Deadpool conclusion. Deadpool should've been more in the book itself since he was on the cover and his appearance had been hyped. What some other posters have suggested about the T'Challa-Storm face time is right on. I can also understand the argument that nothing the X-Men or FF have done couldn't have been done by a Wakandan.

Doom War was awesome at first, but now its becoming unraveled to me. At this point, I'm enjoying Flags of our Fathers more. It doesn't rely on unnecessary cameos and doesn't feel bloated. The Nazis' motivations are clear and their actions have been for the most part. I know that Doom is generally grandiose, but I think these creatures he's created are a bit much as is the way he seemed to want to conquer the world. There are other ways of doing that, economics, technology, bioweapons, etc. than just brute force. How about creating an economic/political system so enticing that people will flock to it? Or founding a new religion, or something. Take it to another level. If Doom is so great, why does he do the same old beat you into submission stuff? Don't get me wrong, I like action as much as the next person, but I would like to see something from Doom that lives up to his hype. Admittedly I've never been much of a Doom or FF fan. Though I've always liked Doom's costume and how he sometimes speaks in third person. Plus, he has one of the coolest names ever. But I've never followed his stories. So, I had hoped despite the title that T'Challa and the Wakandans would be the center of the story, but they are guest stars at best among an ensemble featuring the FF and X-Men, and might be further eclipsed by Deadpool in Issue #5. I'm curious to see how Maberry pulls it all together. I think he is a talented writer and I liked what he did as a run-up to Doom War, but my interest has waned in the series the more its focused on Doom pontificating at the expense of making this at least a shared major event for T'Challa as well, where we can see great moments and game changing character developments or actions for him too.

I wish that Doom War had remained its original length and packed more punch into each installment, like War of the Supermen did. Though the Superman books did suffer from rushed battles and off-stage action as well, I guess to fit within a four issue miniseries. With War of the Supermen at least Superman/Kal-El stayed the main character despite it being about the "Supermen". I wish Doom War had kept T'Challa as the main character, since it was originally billed as a Black Panther event and the rebooted series pretty much was the prologue for it.



Doomwar missed the boat when it ignored T'challa getting revenge on Doom. That is how it was setting up...then they just changed it and it has suffered because of it. The Story would have been epic if they would have just did that...and if T'challa was doing what Shuri is now...

Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Kimoyo on June 08, 2010, 01:26:36 pm
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".

Kip, I couldn't agree with you more!  One of my hopes for BP/T'Challa, when I heard Jon had become involved, knowing Jon and his martial arts background, was that we would see T'Challa kicking some serious tail, hand-to-hand much like we have seen from Shuri.  Given the popularity of the MMA and UFA, what better way to entice a larger audience for BP than to give the existing fans what they've longed for and tie into a major interest for so many that is totally credible given T'Challa's abilities and station as the warrior-King of Wakanda?  Add a revenge motive that includes a near death experience, an invasive deployment of technology in Wakanda that threatened the life of his wife, mother, uncle...,the death of close friends and advisors in part due to his incapacitation and the overthrow of the Wakandan government all at the hands of Doom. 

I think Marvel missed an opportunity to really take BP/T'Challa to the next level.  I would have preferred T'Challa's upgrades to be the additional benefit of an Alchemic procedure that was intended as the potentially leathal but only option for to getting him back fully functioning, but the biggest opportunity missed is the possibility of boosting sales of the book by tying into the popularity of ultimate fighting.  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Seven on June 08, 2010, 01:46:10 pm
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".


I agree with K.I.P here also...but have we see that. If I was a new reader...there is no way I would pick up the Black Panther comic...because they are doing *nothing* cool of note. That's Doomwar...Doom is the winner here...he is the one that looks cool here...at the expense of T'challa.

Contrast that with Jason Aaron's S.I "See Wakanda and Die"...critically acclaimed, made the New York Best sellers list….With T’challa being totally bad ass…with T’challa taking names and kicking ass.

That had people pumped up for volume 5...and Mr. Huldin rocked it...and Doomwar wasted it (with regards to T'challa).

Doomwar is awesome...but I don't see it getting people to read Black Panther.

You want people to read Black Panther...treat him just like you would if you were writing Batman. That's basically what Jason Aaron did, and what Priest and G.Johns did...
Title: Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
Post by: Kimoyo on June 08, 2010, 03:27:19 pm
Doomwar is awesome...but I don't see it getting people to read Black Panther.

Agreed, at least not as of issue #4 even considering that Shuri is the Black Panther.  As kick-a$# as she has been
I personally don't see her standing out in a way that would drive people to the "Black Panther" title.  All the action is incredibly taking a back seat to the chess match, IMO.

You want people to read Black Panther...treat him just like you would if you were writing Batman. That's basically what Jason Aaron did, and what Priest and G.Johns did...

Jon has a unique gift for writing action that lends itself well to comics as a medium.  The visual representation of strikes and manuevers executed by Shuri in the "Power" arc and even a couple early on in "Doom War" did stand out even though I found myself wishing it was T'Challa that had been depicted as executing them.  This is what I believe T'Challa needed as BP.  T'Challa has not engaged in any sustained, physical, hand-to-hand-to-foot action in recent memory including Aaron's excellent "See Wakanda and Die!"  You'd have to go back to Reg's turn with "Little Green Men."   IMO, Marvel had the right man and took the wrong direction.  T'Challa executing some vicious hand-to-hand followed by a Gracie-esque submission might just have been the kind of thing the Doctor ordered.

Peace,

Mont