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Messages - KidKamikaze10

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Perhaps, but if everything is just back, then what was the trip for?

The same thing most superhero comic stories to built for; taking a character, and have them overcome insurmountable odds.

He's both, but you're definitely leaning more on the "he's King. 

No, leaning toward one or the other diminishes who he is.

How so?  Every story he's been in leans at least on one end or the other, with both factoring in.  Some stories deal more with his role as King, others are more superheroic adventures. That's not a diminishment; that's the nature of the character, balancing two roles.

He was designed to be both King and hero.  Both need to be factored rationally into his characterization. Taking one aspect away, either one, culture or compulsion, reduces his uniqueness as whatever remains.  His being a King, the power and authority that goes with that has long been an aspect that was hard for some folks to swallow.  Being a hero, under
other heroes seemed more palatable for the masses.

I can deal with both aspects just fine.  Thing is, the genre the character is in makes it a given that he leans towards one aspect more than the other.  His royalty and culture provides a fresher perspective than most heroes, and that makes him appealing, yes.  But in the end, he's a superhero.  Has nothing to do with being "under other heroes".

So I'd seem him restored as King, so he could be both as he was intended to be.  It's T'Challa the King that has taken the bulk of the character's abuse.  Before you settle for him being "more hero" perhaps you should ask yourself why that is?



I'm fine with him being King or not, but I'm not settling for him being "more hero", I'm stating a reality of the genre he's in and his place in Marvel.  If he wasn't a  character with his own solo comic and identity, if he was just a team player, supporting cast member, or antagonist, I'm sure his king role would take more priority.  That was the case for Shuri.

But that's the double edge sword of getting a solo push by a superhero company. 

But again, mileage may vary.  You don't have to like the story, and I won't think any lesser of you if you don't agree with me.

I don't agree with you Kid and I don't think any less of you either other than my belief that you just don't get it!  By "it" I mean what it means to be the Black Panther.  You surmise that T'Challa being relieved of the formal mantle of BP absolved him of responsibility for the protection of Wakanda as his primary concern?  I don't know if you recall but T'Challa wanted his throne and the mantle of BP back.  Bast gave him a choice but indicated that being KOTD would give him the opportunity to save his people from annihilation, insinuating Shuri might die if he chose to be restored to the throne.  We see how that worked out.

No we haven't.  We'll see that by the end of Secret Wars aka the Salvation part.  The end of the multiverse, including Wakanda was inevitable. That was explained numerous times.  No salvation was to be had there.

T'Challa's primary concern isn't just Wakanda.  It's also the world Wakanda's living in.  He wouldn't have spied or worked with the Avengers if it wasn't.     

T'Challa's outside interests were retconned brilliantly when CJP revealed that he joined the Avengers to spy on them.  During his stint with the Avengers he became a hero to the world at-large however, his primary concern was Wakanda.  This restored him to Stan and Jack's vision, the superhero champion of Wakanda. 

And yet, he also helped save the world and the US numerous times.  So it wasn't just to keep eyes on them.  There's plenty of other ways to do that without outright helping out.

I don't actually have a problem with T'Challa not blowing up the GS world.  I have a problem with him on his knees, crying like a baby, disgraced in the eyes of his ancestors when all along he had the ability to create an alternate means for Wakandans to escape annihilation.

They were still trying to win at that point. To figure out what was going on and save the 616, including Wakanda.  Saving lives instead of running away.

The person to aim this at isn't T'Challa, but the person who actually knew what the end game was all along: Tony Stark.

As for the crying and such, yeah, that seems to be the thing that sticks out most to everyone.  Never mind Tony Stark trying to commit suicide and knowing the game was fixed without telling anyone (Illuminati included), Strange selling his soul and then doing worse, and Reed rejecting the one guy who was key to solving the problem due to a rivalry. 

The worst part was of course T'Challa showing vulnerability in what could have been the move that flipped him from hero to villain (like Namor).

Then of course using that means at Reed's behest to save others without a thought to remaining Wakandans?  This is contrary to what Bast's prophecy intoned.

Do you know who was on that list of people they tried to save?  You don't know how many Wakandans were in that list, and they only had a certain amount of people to save at that point.  Never mind that they were even able to reach the people on their list (because most of them died).

And again, the prophecy isn't over.

Hero or King?  I don't want him to be more King than hero.  I don't even draw such a distinction.  T'Challa/The Black Panther is both.  Wakanda is part of who he is.  I can see how he would be a hero to the people in the Life Raft and anyone else he may save from Doom going forward but tell me...who mourns for Wakanda?



He's both, but you're definitely leaning more on the "he's King.  Wakanda over all" end.  Wakanda is part of who he is.  Part, not all.

And if he is the Salvation Bast says (and when Hickman foreshadows something, it usually comes to pass one way or another), then there will be no need to mourn for Wakanda.  It'll be back, like the rest of the universe.  Which we know for certain due to the All-New All-Different Marvel.

Hey Kid, I agree with the statement that creating the Life Raft is a "huge feat," but Sal is right, contextually, Hickman's T'Challa is a failure.  His foremost responsibility as a member of the royal family of Wakanda is to Wakanda.

And I think that's where the divide is.  You guys want him to be more King than Hero, I would rather see him lean more hero than king (despite ultimately failing at both by the end of the 616, much like everyone else).  And that's part of what Hickman was trying to show, that T'Challa is a different king, not the type that would commit mass genocide without a blink.  And that makes him worse in some situations, better in others.  Arguably, this situation needed a Shuri more than a T'Challa. 

To me, him not destroying the GS world may have been "failure" to Wakanda (though everyone failed 616 Earth, Namor included), but what he's doing now could do more than compensate for that.

The royal family and Black Panthers were supremely responsible for the safety and security of Wakanda and Wakandans; more so, I would argue, than Doom would be responsible for Latverians.  (This is why I feel this story would've made more sense with T'Challa in Doom's role - though not as a self-proclaimed god).

Completely disagree.  You really see T'Challa more as a builder of Battleworld and the killer of the Beyonders?  Sure, it'd be quite the visual, but that very much is a Doom thing (an outright homage to the Original Secret Wars), and T'Challa is not Doom.  Plenty of stories have shown this.

Yes, the role of the Black Panthers is the safety and security of Wakanda and Wakandans, but T'Challa has always looked beyond that.  Again, that's what makes him different.  The others did not.

And if we're going with the "set up like Great Destroyer" role, I also disagree because Doom got that role from being outright rejected by the Illuminati and figuring it out on his own.  BP was the first to find out what happened.  Would it make sense for him to not convene with the Illuminati?  Possible, but not the story Hickman wanted to tell, mileage may vary.

In the face of the end of everything, T'Challa, especially with the ability to commune with all previous Black Panthers, should have been focused on saving as much of Wakanda as possible.  It is not in character for him to act in any other way.

Again, within this context, that's more Shuri or T'Chaka.  Though he tried to defend Wakanda later on, I don't see BP as the type to commit mass murder. For Wakanda or not.

Strange has confirmed that very little of Wakanda survived and that much was saved by Doom!  Hickman's T'Challa/Black Panther is a failure at what it means to be the Black Panther and a member of the royal family of Wakanda.  Any remaining Wakandans would rightly see him as a sell out.  (Interestingly Marvel intends now to pair him with Blue Marvel?)  I don't see how this fundamental fact - his failure as BP - changes regardless of what "cool" thing has Hickman him do next?

My two cents. 



None of the Wakandans even exist right now, and if he's the one that brings Wakanda back in full, are they really going to call him a sell out?  Never mind being "right" (it's not), would they even remember?

To wrap this up though, Shuri was the head of the Royal Family at that point and the main BP.  She did her duty fine, despite BP wrongfully undermining it.  BP's role was to follow Bast prophecy.  T'Chaka and the others may have seen other wise, but most likely they will be proven wrong.

I don't feel bad still enjoying Hickman's story despite it's flaws and despite how low T'Challa went (though other Illuminati did FAR worse. See Tony Stark, who will most likely have NO effect on how Secret Wars gets resolved, and died fighting Steve Rogers).  I just hope the resolution is even better.

But again, mileage may vary.  You don't have to like the story, and I won't think any lesser of you if you don't agree with me.

Another point to Supreme.  There's a series of panels that a lot of people aren't noticing in Secret Wars #4.

Dr. Strange, before the last part of the issue, provides a knowledge transfer magic to T'Challa before the survivors are sent away. Not Reed, not all the survivors, but just T'Challa.

I have a feeling that T'Challa may be the only guy in the story that actually knows the secrets to Battleworld.

Besides God Emperor Doom of crouse.

I heard about these panels, man. I'm gonna buy SW4 tomorrow, God willing. Lol. And read the whole book myself. I hinted in issue 2 that I think I see a tiny part of where Hickman is going here. But I'll keep my yap shut until issue 7.

Another point to Supreme.  There's a series of panels that a lot of people aren't noticing in Secret Wars #4.

Alternatively, readers like myself well familiar with the effects of Maberry'ism don't give a frak about a few panels when juxtaposed against a backdrop of character negation and non-stop deconstruction.

Dr. Strange, before the last part of the issue, provides a knowledge transfer magic to T'Challa before the survivors are sent away. Not Reed, not all the survivors, but just T'Challa.

So what?

Does any of what you've stated here change the fact that Hickman wrote T'Challa as a tactical ignoramus and all round failure?

I have a feeling that T'Challa may be the only guy in the story that actually knows the secrets to Battleworld.

Besides God Emperor Doom of course.

Pity T'Challa forgot the secret of Wakandan resilience and ingenuity in the face of sustained aggression.

My position remains unchanged as regards the way in which the Black Panther Mythos have been mismanaged post Hudlin so while others seek to crow about supposed predictions coming true whilst rubbing Hickman's semen into their faces on some gleeful fanboy sh*te, I'll wait until the finished product actually drops later on this year to make up my own mind as to whether T'Challa's place in the MU is vastly improved.

Skipping the whole Hickman semen thing...I congratulate you that you are now at least willing to wait until the finished product actually drops later this to make up your mind. Which has been my repeated refrain, and which is the ultimate beginning determinant of what's poppin for TChalla anyway. Realistically? Looking at how books are written now, and as they shift to that TV seasonal model? It'll take about 6 issues of UTLIMATE AVENGERS to see whwere TChalla is visavis the team, and we'd have to wait a like number of issuesa after CA CW propels TChalla's solo book in summer or fall of 2016 [ fingers crossed that Marvel launches the book next year ].

Plus, everything T'Challa has ever done in the past pales in comparison to what he's done when he's been a "failure".

He's one of only two people to make a solution to escape the death of the multiverse.  Only Doom through outright killing gods and usurping their power matches up.  Despite Val and Reed having a hand in the plan, T'Challa's the one who engineered the Life Raft. It worked so well The Cabal had to COPY it to survive. And this is a group with a guy more intelligent than anyone in Marvel Earth, Thanos.

That is a huge feat.

Another point to Supreme.  There's a series of panels that a lot of people aren't noticing in Secret Wars #4.

Dr. Strange, before the last part of the issue, provides a knowledge transfer magic to T'Challa before the survivors are sent away. Not Reed, not all the survivors, but just T'Challa.

I have a feeling that T'Challa may be the only guy in the story that actually knows the secrets to Battleworld.

Besides God Emperor Doom of crouse.

Black Panther / Re: Secret Wars
« on: May 13, 2015, 08:05:32 am »
Yeah that has nothing to do with Secret Wars, remove that.

Also, SW #2 had no T'Challa (but it did have Bast).  T'Challa did appear in Mighty though.

Black Panther / Re: Secret Wars
« on: May 10, 2015, 12:28:37 pm »

Did anyone else pick up on the way Doom and Molecule Man used the same language as Shuri and T'Challa ("put the knife where it belongs") about writing history and causing the universal collapses?

As I saw it, the exchange reminded me about an old Christopher Priest statement was T'Challa was the 'good' version of Doom in the MU. The constant replays about Shuri wounding Proxima Midnight (as well as T'Challa stabbing Namor) make me wonder about the longer term effects of being stabbed with vibranium.

There is an interesting narrative triangle that MU has created between Reed, T'Challa, and Doom. I think it may be at the center of the Secret Wars plot.

What do you think?

Great Catch! I knew he words were familiar but didnt catch that. He said Tchalla was important despite my dissappointment. I have been hopeful hed shine in SW because he wasnt myuch in the second act. (Avengers New Avengers)

Did I read correctly that the different issues of Secret Wars will have different writers? That is Hickman isn't writing the entire series?  I thought Aaron was writing one issue.  I hope not; whenever they do that, the story reads choppy and sometimes even conflict.  (Plus, not good for BP, if other writers take over now.)

All Hickman.  Everyone else is writing other stories.  Some may have little impact in the main, the vast majority will not.

Black Panther / Re: Secret Wars
« on: May 06, 2015, 08:55:32 am »
So basically Manifold chumped out Storm for Cyclops AND Lady Thor, by not letting her come aboard the arc.


sh*t, nevermind those two (at least they are packing heat), she got chumped over STAR LORD!


Black Panther / Re: Secret Wars
« on: May 06, 2015, 08:53:41 am »
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.

I've seen Reed lose a lot of things but I haven't gotten Secret Wars #1 yet. Which loss of Reed's are you referring to?

He watched his whole family die (as far as he knows).

This issue was jam packed, and it's great to see T'Challa as not just one of the survivors, but practically the leader of the survivors (Reed's going to be a bad place for a while).

Black Panther / Re: Secret Wars
« on: May 06, 2015, 06:00:28 am »
Well, we DEFINITELY can't say Reed hasn't lost anything now.

f*cking yikes.

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Shuri hasn't done a thing to hamper the Black Panther franchise.

Hard Choices / Re: DEBARGE vs THE JACKSONS
« on: April 03, 2015, 12:25:18 pm »
Or if we're going international, DeBarge versus Five Star.

Between DeBarge and the Jacksons though?  Definitely the Jacksons, I even like some of their songs without Michael. 

Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: March 31, 2015, 05:43:25 pm »
All I'm saying is Storm's solo book could have been much better and much more electrifying this year. Pak is a good writer, but he just chose the wrong way to debut the book.
I'm reminded of a quote from Moneyball:
"If he's a good hitter, how come he doesn't hit good?"

Warren Ellis couldn't put over Storm.

And that guy was able to get a cult series out of Son of Satan.

Blaming Pak for the Storm series failure is like blaming Rex Ryan for the Jets' failures.

Given with what they both had to work with, neither of them had a chance.

With what an inferior writer (Fraction) did with Hawkeye and Iron Fist (or maybe it was more Aja), I can't buy it.

Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: March 31, 2015, 05:08:18 am »
And Storm road the popularity of the X-Men.  If she wasn't a member of the X-Men during their height,  she would be as popular as Hellcat.

And see that is the problem.   No matter how popular you think she is,  1/2 of that popularity is because of the team,  not her as a character.   In fact that is why she never was given a solo run until now and it's falling.   She was never designed to be a solo player.   

(It is also the reason she isn't strongly identified with the Black community.   She isn't Black hero who is an X-Men,  she is an X-Men first,  a mutant second,  a woman third and then if there is any story room left,  she is Black.   A solo title didn't change that. )

This is not true. At the time Storm joined the ranks of the X-Men, the book was just being ressurected after being cancelled for years. Storm and Wolverine were the two characters that soared to the top in terms of popularity in the title. As a matter of fact, during the X-Men's greatest era, Storm's character was the driving force behind the title.  It was very obvious that Storm was CC's favorite character and she was the center of the book during what most would call the best era in terms of the writing of the book. Storm did NOT ride on the coat tails of the X-Men because those coat tails were non-existant when she came onboard. In many ways, she carried the book and made the stories great. What CC did with her character brought a certain depth of characterization and writing to the book that remains unparalled at any other time in X-histoy to this day.

The problems with the title are as I have already outlined in the previous two pages of this thread.

Your claim that Storm was never designed to be a solo character is not true. While it may not have been Marvel's intention, with the diverse canon/back story establshed about her in canon, there is more than enough material there for Storm to carry her own solo title even moreso than Wolverine. Your claims would hold true about an X-Man not having enough material to carry their own title if they were applied to Cyclops or Jean Grey, but not Ororo. I've gone on at length about this months ago in this thread.

Also, many Black readers DO like Storm.

If she was designed to be a solo character, she would have started off as one.  Or shortly after.

Like Hawkeye, she could have been built as one.  Pak instead used the X-Men as her crutch.  Compare the two.  Hawkeye had references and Avengers showing up in his title.  But his title was about him.  It wasn't about further pushing the Avengers agenda, thus making his book redundant.  It was about him being him.  The hero, the man himself, and the lives he directly effects.

In contrast, Pak decided to try to make Storm "action packed", without truly building roots within the title.  The direction, the threats, the goal; they all felt derivative with the rest of the X-Titles.  Before having her go on a world tour, saving humans and mutants alike, Pak chose not to establish Storm as Storm.

She was just Storm, member of the X-Men.  Without the Avengers, Hawkeye still has plenty of work with.  Without the X-Men, Wolverine has more than enough to work with.  Without the X-Men, what is Storm?

Pak chose not to clearly answer that.  And thus, people didn't see the title as must read.  Instead, it was filler.

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