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Messages - moneyspider

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1
Black Panther / Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« on: January 13, 2016, 10:21:16 pm »


uh, no! Terror? If BP wasn't connected to Bast & if Tchalla wasn't African royalty...
Warrior King? yes! I get the comment, but BP/Wakanda should be about overwhelming Power & intellectualism.
 
Terror
1. alarm, dismay, consternation. trepidation, horror, panic, fright all imply extreme fear in the presence of danger or evil.


I like the panther-suit. I just hope it has all the same gadgets as iron-man. more.


My first thought is that the "We are Wakanda. We will not be terrorized. We are terror, itself" statement is from The People, who Black Panther has to go up against.

2
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 15, 2014, 02:36:43 pm »

You are ASSUMING it does nothing. Have you ever tried it? If you did try it and you didn't get immediate results, you have to realize that the changes are not going to be immediate because we are battling DECADES of racist behaviors, racist ideas and racist attitudes, so the change WE WANT is not going to happen overnight.

If you DIDN'T try it, then how are you qualified to sit there and assume it won't achieve anything?


Why should I waste my time sending “positive photos” where I can purchase books from other writers and artists whom are doing it already? For example Ericka Alexander

Money talks and it will always be the determining factor. Your pictures have no power no weight to change their minds. Just google black relationships and you will see people angry at each other. Do I like the sight of it? No of course not. But at the same I am not going to bark at the moon. I would rather create the power base to discredit these images. Take your dollar elsewhere to people whom are already doing the work.

Does posting negative images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more negativity? Continuously posting negative images of fictional black women getting hit with hammers is not going to create positivity, because how would it?

Does posting positive images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more positivity? To think that only a “picture” creates some type of power for anyone to realize this isn’t good enough. Create the power and take the so called “trillion” spending dollars elsewhere.

Let’s say we take out the hammer, we suddenly have one of the few “mainstream” black couples fighting each other. Depending on the writer they were in love or hated each other. Why should I as a consumer continue to pay money for something like that? No

Sending positive imagery of black people to Marvel will get THEM used to seeing positive images if black people, and if THEY continue seeing positive images of black people on a CONTINUOUS basis, then HOPEFULLY change will come for the better for all non-white readers, because hopefully Marvel will get the hint and start portraying ALL non-white fictional characters in the same way that they feature the majority of their white fictional characters...IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE.
While you’re doing that, you’re ignoring some writers and companies that are doing that already. We as a base should make them work to get our support, not the other way around.
But I realize all of this requires FAITH, POSITIVITY and OPTIMISM, which a lot of people in the comic book reading-public and a lot of people on message boards DO NOT HAVE, because their first immediate reaction is to be pessimistic and always expect the worst, but keep complaining when the worst happens because they refuse to do what is necessary to TRY and change things for the better.

Complain? That is a wasted emotion. Instead I won’t and of course more will continue to purchase more and more and complain in why Marvel isn’t doing their part.

It's always easy to be pessimistic, and negative, and to assume the worst, and to assume such-and-such method to try and change things for the better won't work, and to assume reaching out to companies to express our displeasure won't work, and to laugh and ridicule fictional black women for the ways in which they are written by white men and handled by white editors, but it requires a lot more patience, dedication, perseverance and a tough, unwielding, relentless mindset to do the dirty work and do what actually needs to be done in order for POSITIVE, PERMANENT changes to the comic book industry to happen in terms of how non-white characters are portrayed.
For over 75 years they haven’t shown any true sense of characterization of PoC. Not even 3D characters. It is either they are Sidney Poitier or John Shaft; there is no middle ground.

It seems that it's always easier for a lot of people to spew hatred and venom at fictional black characters (male or female, for a variety of reasons) then to band together and support as many fictional black characters as they can. Even if we don't like the current direction in which non-white characters are being taken, we could still try to support these non-white characters and demand that they be taken in better directions, directions in which non-white characters aren't pitted against other non-white characters and have non-white comic book readers bashing fictional black women every chance they get.
That is called insanity sir. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The overall big picture is, if you want things to change, then you have to BE THE CHANGE and do what's necessary to change things instead of bickering, snickering, spewing hatred for fictional black women when we all know the same would NOT be done for a majority of fictional black men. Constantly complaining on message boards to people WHO ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE changes nothing...it just reminds comic book readers what the problems are and just keeps feeding negativity. It's more logical to CONSTANTLY COMPLAIN TO THE COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY CONSTANTLY CAUSING THE PROBLEMS.
I actually agree with you 100% however mailing pictures isn’t it. The changes are out there already as it is.

Midnight Tiger



Who said anything about continuing to BUY anything from Marvel? I said SUPPORT non-white characters, which can mean a variety of things. I've never suggested that people continue to give Marvel money for products they don't like or agree with. We can still SUPPORT non-white characters at Marvel in various ways without buying any of their books.

And the only indy book I am interested in at the moment is SUPERAFRICAN by musician Sila...so far there has only been one issue released and that was earlier this year. I'm waiting to hear back about when the second issue will be released (if it will be released at all). He released the first issue at the same time he released his new album of the same name, but I'm not sure how well the first issue of the comic book sold.

Mailing pictures is just one method and just one more tool in our tool belt. People in marketing and advertising know exactly how effective (whether positive or negative) pictures can be, so I wouldn't rule out sending in positive images of black people on a consistent basis. And let's not pretend that posting negative images on message boards is getting us the results we want.

Complaints are a wasted emotion? Tell that to all of the people who EVER complained to Marvel, or DC, or any other company, and received exactly the very things they asked for.

And I think it IS good to support indy books that are doing great things for non-white characters, but if for some reason those indy publishers go under, or discontinue those books, either we as non-white readers will have to give up reading comics (because some would refuse to go back to Marvel or DC), OR they would go back to Marvel and DC...which probably would not have gotten better at portraying non-white characters because no one stuck around to demand that Marvel and DC start portraying non-white characters better.


Bro, have you ever received a written response from anyone at Marvel leading on from any of the letters and positive photo's you've snailmailed to them?

Real question.


I received ONE snail-mail letter from Joe Quesada years ago after I snail-mailed them my very first letter. Other than that, I have received zero feedback from them, nor do I expect to because not only do I send them way too much stuff for them to respond to each and every time, but those people most likely don't have the time to individually respond to all of the letters and e-mails that readers send to them on a daily basis.

That also does not mean that Marvel is NOT listening to what is being said to them, just because they don't respond to me (or anyone else) all of the time whenever they receive something from us. Unfortunately, this process is not like Tom Brevoort's Formspring account, where you may get answers from him (although he doesn't even answer every question that is posed to him on Formspring because he picks and chooses what he wants to answer or ignore).

Also, I have received more responses from DC executives to my snail-mail letters than I have from Marvel (which surprises me but I guess both companies have different ways of handling things). I received smail-mail responses from Geoff Johns and Diane Nelson, but their answers did not satisfy me, so I continue to contact them about my concerns.

As for the positive images of black people that I send to Marvel, I have not received any responses to those yet, and frankly I'm not expecting any snail-mail responses to them. I'm more interested in seeing positive reactions in the actual books than from some snail-mail responses from the company.

3
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 14, 2014, 04:20:14 pm »

You are ASSUMING it does nothing. Have you ever tried it? If you did try it and you didn't get immediate results, you have to realize that the changes are not going to be immediate because we are battling DECADES of racist behaviors, racist ideas and racist attitudes, so the change WE WANT is not going to happen overnight.

If you DIDN'T try it, then how are you qualified to sit there and assume it won't achieve anything?


Why should I waste my time sending “positive photos” where I can purchase books from other writers and artists whom are doing it already? For example Ericka Alexander

Money talks and it will always be the determining factor. Your pictures have no power no weight to change their minds. Just google black relationships and you will see people angry at each other. Do I like the sight of it? No of course not. But at the same I am not going to bark at the moon. I would rather create the power base to discredit these images. Take your dollar elsewhere to people whom are already doing the work.

Does posting negative images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more negativity? Continuously posting negative images of fictional black women getting hit with hammers is not going to create positivity, because how would it?

Does posting positive images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more positivity? To think that only a “picture” creates some type of power for anyone to realize this isn’t good enough. Create the power and take the so called “trillion” spending dollars elsewhere.

Let’s say we take out the hammer, we suddenly have one of the few “mainstream” black couples fighting each other. Depending on the writer they were in love or hated each other. Why should I as a consumer continue to pay money for something like that? No

Sending positive imagery of black people to Marvel will get THEM used to seeing positive images if black people, and if THEY continue seeing positive images of black people on a CONTINUOUS basis, then HOPEFULLY change will come for the better for all non-white readers, because hopefully Marvel will get the hint and start portraying ALL non-white fictional characters in the same way that they feature the majority of their white fictional characters...IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE.
While you’re doing that, you’re ignoring some writers and companies that are doing that already. We as a base should make them work to get our support, not the other way around.
But I realize all of this requires FAITH, POSITIVITY and OPTIMISM, which a lot of people in the comic book reading-public and a lot of people on message boards DO NOT HAVE, because their first immediate reaction is to be pessimistic and always expect the worst, but keep complaining when the worst happens because they refuse to do what is necessary to TRY and change things for the better.

Complain? That is a wasted emotion. Instead I won’t and of course more will continue to purchase more and more and complain in why Marvel isn’t doing their part.

It's always easy to be pessimistic, and negative, and to assume the worst, and to assume such-and-such method to try and change things for the better won't work, and to assume reaching out to companies to express our displeasure won't work, and to laugh and ridicule fictional black women for the ways in which they are written by white men and handled by white editors, but it requires a lot more patience, dedication, perseverance and a tough, unwielding, relentless mindset to do the dirty work and do what actually needs to be done in order for POSITIVE, PERMANENT changes to the comic book industry to happen in terms of how non-white characters are portrayed.
For over 75 years they haven’t shown any true sense of characterization of PoC. Not even 3D characters. It is either they are Sidney Poitier or John Shaft; there is no middle ground.

It seems that it's always easier for a lot of people to spew hatred and venom at fictional black characters (male or female, for a variety of reasons) then to band together and support as many fictional black characters as they can. Even if we don't like the current direction in which non-white characters are being taken, we could still try to support these non-white characters and demand that they be taken in better directions, directions in which non-white characters aren't pitted against other non-white characters and have non-white comic book readers bashing fictional black women every chance they get.
That is called insanity sir. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The overall big picture is, if you want things to change, then you have to BE THE CHANGE and do what's necessary to change things instead of bickering, snickering, spewing hatred for fictional black women when we all know the same would NOT be done for a majority of fictional black men. Constantly complaining on message boards to people WHO ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE changes nothing...it just reminds comic book readers what the problems are and just keeps feeding negativity. It's more logical to CONSTANTLY COMPLAIN TO THE COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY CONSTANTLY CAUSING THE PROBLEMS.
I actually agree with you 100% however mailing pictures isn’t it. The changes are out there already as it is.

Midnight Tiger



Who said anything about continuing to BUY anything from Marvel? I said SUPPORT non-white characters, which can mean a variety of things. I've never suggested that people continue to give Marvel money for products they don't like or agree with. We can still SUPPORT non-white characters at Marvel in various ways without buying any of their books.

And the only indy book I am interested in at the moment is SUPERAFRICAN by musician Sila...so far there has only been one issue released and that was earlier this year. I'm waiting to hear back about when the second issue will be released (if it will be released at all). He released the first issue at the same time he released his new album of the same name, but I'm not sure how well the first issue of the comic book sold.

Mailing pictures is just one method and just one more tool in our tool belt. People in marketing and advertising know exactly how effective (whether positive or negative) pictures can be, so I wouldn't rule out sending in positive images of black people on a consistent basis. And let's not pretend that posting negative images on message boards is getting us the results we want.

Complaints are a wasted emotion? Tell that to all of the people who EVER complained to Marvel, or DC, or any other company, and received exactly the very things they asked for.

And I think it IS good to support indy books that are doing great things for non-white characters, but if for some reason those indy publishers go under, or discontinue those books, either we as non-white readers will have to give up reading comics (because some would refuse to go back to Marvel or DC), OR they would go back to Marvel and DC...which probably would not have gotten better at portraying non-white characters because no one stuck around to demand that Marvel and DC start portraying non-white characters better.


4
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 14, 2014, 11:25:07 am »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office, but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create, and the more these negative images invite the vocal bashing of Storm in this thread and several other threads on this site. I can understand the critiques and criticisms of how her character has been handled by various white writers and editors in the past, but a lot of this is still teetering in the territory of bashing Storm as though she is a real flesh-and-blood woman who made her own bizarre life choices as opposed to several white writers and several white editors MAKING her go down the paths they have shown her embarking on.

This is one of the MAIN problems with how Africans and African Americans are depicted...there are way too many negative images of us being floated around and posted, and there aren't enough POSITIVE images or depictions of us continuously being posted.

Instead if us gleefully posting images of Storm (a fictional African woman) getting her ass kicked, perhaps we should refrain from doing that, because we sure wouldn't be gleefully posting images of Black Panther (a fictional African man) getting his ass kicked, and laughing about it.

I think I've said this before, but the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther, only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did, and not because of something that the CHARACTERS actually did themselves, as though they are real people in real life.

I think the amount of venom spewed from both fan bases (against the other fan base's favorite character) over the years over CHARACTERS WHO DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST is atrocious and doesn't help or solve anything...it just makes matters worse.


Meanwhile those who like to say they're fans of both like to try and talk down to everybody else while supporting current writers and editors who like the folks before them ain't worth a damn either and neither is this character who's only significance now that we are to "see as golden and what makes a character awesome" is a mohawk and the ability to electrocute folks with a tan


Storm aka the comic book version of Condi Rice

Yes, I am a fan of both, Genki Sudo, and if you weren't so busy being so damn passive-aggressive in nearly all of your posts on here and CBR you would probably learn a lot of things about how readers SHOULD handle Marvel whenever they have complaints against the company, or any comic book company that is not handling non-white characters they way they should be handled.

I don't and never have bought into this whole "Black Panther fans vs. Storm fans" bullsh*t that has permeated various websites for years. That kind of mentality serves no useful purpose and just shows how we need to start acting like adults instead of "choosing sides."

And I'm not talking down to anyone, I'm speaking from my heart with what I feel is the truth. If you think I'm talking down to you, than that says a lot more about you than it does me. Don't blame me if you feel like you are being victimized by what I'm saying. If anything, I'm trying to help not only me but you and everyone else, to try and get us all to do what we need to do.

But as usual you have chosen to express negativity, pessimism and outright stubborness while actually doing nothing to change anything.

And YOU are one of the posters who likes to spew venom at Storm, but would hop on your "Hooligan" bandwagon if anyone spewed venom at Black Panther. In my eyes, that makes you a hypocrite.

I'm not sure how I missed this post but here are my thoughts on the subject.

Any "venom that's being spewed at Storm" should be seen as justified dissaproval aimed squarely at the current arbiters of her character within the X-books as well as the so-called fans who have been more than happy to sit back while her character has been systematically slutted out and generally made to look like a straight up fool within said X-books post AvX.

Practically all of the BP enthusiasts that I know on and offline, celebrated Ororo' awesomness and elevated importance within the 616 MU under Reginald Hudlin's pen and saw her as a solid counterpoint to T'Challa as a olidly humanizing character who was never afraid to steer her husband in the right direction.

We revered her character and loved what both Hudlin and McDuffie did with the Royal Couple across the Black Panther and Fantastic Four books that both of these magnificent writers were responible for writing at the time.

Mr Hudlin had Ororo being a total BOSS putting Tony Stark and Reed Richards in their respective places during the Marvel Civil War long before some X-Wankster had her mouthing this "X-Men are elite" BS recently, so let's not get too carried away here.

I personally hate X-related product and the office that spews forth the X-related filth that stinks up and derails every other part of the 616 MU that it touches.

I see the X-Office as being a hotbed of creators who are virulently anti the positive portrayal of Black heterosexual characters (specifically Black males) and definitely anti-Black heteroexual relationship and as such, I have zero time for anyone championing the support of product that disrepects things that I personally feel very trongly about.

Genki Sudo (like yourself) is consistent and forthright with his opinions on the way Storm has been handled and like myself, remains resolute in not giving Marvel any monies spent on product that blatantly disrespects us with each and every publication that emanates from within the X-office.

He is no hypocrite.

I disagree, and I stand by my assessment of him.

Fair enough.

But if he doesn't spend money on products he feels uncomfortable with how does that make him a hypocrite?

That's not why I called him a hypocrite, or why I think he is one. I already told him why I think he's a hypocrite.

5
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 14, 2014, 08:26:50 am »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office, but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create, and the more these negative images invite the vocal bashing of Storm in this thread and several other threads on this site. I can understand the critiques and criticisms of how her character has been handled by various white writers and editors in the past, but a lot of this is still teetering in the territory of bashing Storm as though she is a real flesh-and-blood woman who made her own bizarre life choices as opposed to several white writers and several white editors MAKING her go down the paths they have shown her embarking on.

This is one of the MAIN problems with how Africans and African Americans are depicted...there are way too many negative images of us being floated around and posted, and there aren't enough POSITIVE images or depictions of us continuously being posted.

Instead if us gleefully posting images of Storm (a fictional African woman) getting her ass kicked, perhaps we should refrain from doing that, because we sure wouldn't be gleefully posting images of Black Panther (a fictional African man) getting his ass kicked, and laughing about it.

I think I've said this before, but the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther, only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did, and not because of something that the CHARACTERS actually did themselves, as though they are real people in real life.

I think the amount of venom spewed from both fan bases (against the other fan base's favorite character) over the years over CHARACTERS WHO DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST is atrocious and doesn't help or solve anything...it just makes matters worse.


Meanwhile those who like to say they're fans of both like to try and talk down to everybody else while supporting current writers and editors who like the folks before them ain't worth a damn either and neither is this character who's only significance now that we are to "see as golden and what makes a character awesome" is a mohawk and the ability to electrocute folks with a tan


Storm aka the comic book version of Condi Rice

Yes, I am a fan of both, Genki Sudo, and if you weren't so busy being so damn passive-aggressive in nearly all of your posts on here and CBR you would probably learn a lot of things about how readers SHOULD handle Marvel whenever they have complaints against the company, or any comic book company that is not handling non-white characters they way they should be handled.

I don't and never have bought into this whole "Black Panther fans vs. Storm fans" bullsh*t that has permeated various websites for years. That kind of mentality serves no useful purpose and just shows how we need to start acting like adults instead of "choosing sides."

And I'm not talking down to anyone, I'm speaking from my heart with what I feel is the truth. If you think I'm talking down to you, than that says a lot more about you than it does me. Don't blame me if you feel like you are being victimized by what I'm saying. If anything, I'm trying to help not only me but you and everyone else, to try and get us all to do what we need to do.

But as usual you have chosen to express negativity, pessimism and outright stubborness while actually doing nothing to change anything.

And YOU are one of the posters who likes to spew venom at Storm, but would hop on your "Hooligan" bandwagon if anyone spewed venom at Black Panther. In my eyes, that makes you a hypocrite.

I'm not sure how I missed this post but here are my thoughts on the subject.

Any "venom that's being spewed at Storm" should be seen as justified dissaproval aimed squarely at the current arbiters of her character within the X-books as well as the so-called fans who have been more than happy to sit back while her character has been systematically slutted out and generally made to look like a straight up fool within said X-books post AvX.

Practically all of the BP enthusiasts that I know on and offline, celebrated Ororo' awesomness and elevated importance within the 616 MU under Reginald Hudlin's pen and saw her as a solid counterpoint to T'Challa as a olidly humanizing character who was never afraid to steer her husband in the right direction.

We revered her character and loved what both Hudlin and McDuffie did with the Royal Couple across the Black Panther and Fantastic Four books that both of these magnificent writers were responible for writing at the time.

Mr Hudlin had Ororo being a total BOSS putting Tony Stark and Reed Richards in their respective places during the Marvel Civil War long before some X-Wankster had her mouthing this "X-Men are elite" BS recently, so let's not get too carried away here.

I personally hate X-related product and the office that spews forth the X-related filth that stinks up and derails every other part of the 616 MU that it touches.

I see the X-Office as being a hotbed of creators who are virulently anti the positive portrayal of Black heterosexual characters (specifically Black males) and definitely anti-Black heteroexual relationship and as such, I have zero time for anyone championing the support of product that disrepects things that I personally feel very trongly about.

Genki Sudo (like yourself) is consistent and forthright with his opinions on the way Storm has been handled and like myself, remains resolute in not giving Marvel any monies spent on product that blatantly disrespects us with each and every publication that emanates from within the X-office.

He is no hypocrite.

I disagree, and I stand by my assessment of him.

6
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 13, 2014, 11:48:02 am »
Quote
I send Marvel Entertainment positive images of black people every chance I get.
What does this achieve exactly? It does nothing. I refuse to even attempt to get on a bus where I am not wanted. I would rather walk. Based on what they have done historically I'm good.

You are ASSUMING it does nothing. Have you ever tried it? If you did try it and you didn't get immediate results, you have to realize that the changes are not going to be immediate because we are battling DECADES of racist behaviors, racist ideas and racist attitudes, so the change WE WANT is not going to happen overnight.

If you DIDN'T try it, then how are you qualified to sit there and assume it won't achieve anything?

Does posting negative images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more negativity? Continuously posting negative images of fictional black women getting hit with hammers is not going to create positivity, because how would it?

Sending positive imagery of black people to Marvel will get THEM used to seeing positive images if black people, and if THEY continue seeing positive images of black people on a CONTINUOUS basis, then HOPEFULLY change will come for the better for all non-white readers, because hopefully Marvel will get the hint and start portraying ALL non-white fictional characters in the same way that they feature the majority of their white fictional characters...IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE.

But I realize all of this requires FAITH, POSITIVITY and OPTIMISM, which a lot of people in the comic book reading-public and a lot of people on message boards DO NOT HAVE, because their first immediate reaction is to be pessimistic and always expect the worst, but keep complaining when the worst happens because they refuse to do what is necessary to TRY and change things for the better.

It's always easy to be pessimistic, and negative, and to assume the worst, and to assume such-and-such method to try and change things for the better won't work, and to assume reaching out to companies to express our displeasure won't work, and to laugh and ridicule fictional black women for the ways in which they are written by white men and handled by white editors, but it requires a lot more patience, dedication, perseverance and a tough, unwielding, relentless mindset to do the dirty work and do what actually needs to be done in order for POSITIVE, PERMANENT changes to the comic book industry to happen.

It seems that it's always easier for a lot of people to spew hatred and venom at fictional black characters (male or female, for a variety of reasons) then to band together and support as many fictional black characters as they can.

The overall big picture is, if you want things to change, then you have to BE THE CHANGE and do what's necessary to change things instead of bickering, snickering, spewing hatred for fictional black women when we all know the same would NOT be done for a majority of fictional black men. Constantly complaining on message boards to people WHO ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE changes nothing...it just reminds comic book readers what the problems are and just keeps feeding negativity. It's more logical to CONSTANTLY COMPLAIN TO THE COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY CONSTANTLY CAUSING THE PROBLEMS.

I'm a very positive person in my personal life.

However, I've come to terms with the fact that the mainstream comic book business is institutionally racist and as such, I expect nothing more from them other than the rubbish they've pushed for decades that denigrates anything that isn't lily white are Oreo'd.

I've also come to the terms that the mainstream comic book business is institutionally racist, but if we don't do anything to try and change that, then nothing is going to change and if comic books continue to exist, the generations that come AFTER us are going to be facing the exact same problems WE are facing right now.

And it's not just about US, it's about our kids and grandkids, etc. who might want to read comic books and will have to face the SAME EXACT fight we are facing now, because we didn't try and do anything to change things for the better.

By doing NOTHING except complaining on message boards, than constantly looking around for ways in which Marvel wronged non-white characters and non-white readers, we aren't doing anything constructive at all.

This is us:

Marvel pisses us off, we complain but do nothing, thus paving the way for Marvel to keep pissing us off. Then we pissed off at Marvel again because they pissed us off again because we paved the way for them to piss us off again.

We have been in this cycle for years, and it never gets us ANYWHERE. We're stuck because we do absolutely nothing of significance.

If we think that the people at Marvel (and DC) are going to wake up one day and suddenly say to themselves "Gee, we really need to stop being racist and treating non-white characters like crap!", that's most likely not going to happen. They will continue to push their pro-white, anti-non-white attitudes, beliefs and practices for as long as they are allowed to get away with it (as long as WE allow them to get away with it).

Since we all DO want change, we are going to have to FIGHT for it. If we don't put up a constant fight, then we will never win.

But a lot of us aren't even TRYING.

7
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 13, 2014, 11:41:59 am »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

In this topic alone I've seen two flattering/positive images of Storm; one included in a post by Marvelous, the other in a post by Apexabyss. Then there are the unlettered page preview for the ongoing featuring Ororo dispatching a cadre of armed men with frightfully-impressive ease. This last may get at the conundrum which gives rise to your observation: the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther, only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did, and not because of something that the CHARACTERS actually did themselves, as though they are real people in real life. This statement is part fallacy and part fact.

Speaking for myself and from what I've observed: "...the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther..." I respectfully disagree. From a character's standpoint - general appearance, powerset and potential - I would feel confident in saying Storm is favorably regarded by the HEF. "..., only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did,..." Yes and ...not yes  :) I think that when some of us have posted something suggesting that Ororo was a "nut bucket", or seeming to ridicule her by name for sitting in the little chair beside the large, imposing desk of authority where Wolverine was sitting, we weren't showing a dislike for Storm or blaming her directly for beginning sexual relations with Logan almost immediately after her annulled MARRIAGE or for showing something of a subservience by sitting in the small chair rather than the big desk. Referring to Ororo as if she were entirely to blame for this foolishness was something like a "shorthand method" of saying what we really thought and what comprises the "yes" portion of your statement. We weren't blaming Storm. She's a fictional comicbook character who exists because writers, editors, and illustrators bring her to life. We are therefore, blaming the writers, editors, and illustrators for the things we dislike in their depiction of Storm's character.

So, to the conundrum I mentioned earlier. There are those who looking at how easily Storm dispatched that armed force confronting her in the preview pages would regard those images as powerful and positive images of Storm's character. Then there are those of US who see this confrontation as a continuation of the x-writer's preference where Storm's interaction with black people - and black males in particular - is concerned. One person's treasured positive image of Ororo in action is another person's trashy negative image of white writer's depicting Ororo beating the hell out of black men yet another time.

Quote
The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office,

Yes it does, and quite nicely too.

Quote
but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create,


I wouldn't put it past a smarty-pants writer who might happen to look in on the HEF from time to time and who upon viewing any negative image and accompanying derisive commentary to decide to troll us a bit by injecting more of the very type of activity we find distasteful into his/her stories. How many heterosexual black male mutants survive in the x-verse? How many of those enjoy exposure or a relationship with a female? How many bisexual or heterosexual black males have we seen in the x-verse while black female mutants like Joanna Cargill and Monet St Croix crave the attention of white male mutants? Do you remember what happened between Quentin Quire and the black male mutant "Slick"? Do you remember what "Slick's" girlfriend's reaction was after that incident?


Now, is it really fair to ask us to play nice with people who want to play us?

I don't really know anything about Quentin Quire, other than Marvel paired him up romantically with a black woman.

And as for playing nice, I don't recall actually using the phrase "playing nice" with Marvel...I believe all I have been saying is we have to have an open dialogue with Marvel at all times if we want them to start portraying non-white characters respectfully. I certainly have not been "nice" when I contact Marvel...in fact, I've often times been quite pissed off while writing to them, but I do believe that we do need to maintain professionalism when addressing Marvel so that they take us more seriously, just like we would want to be addressed respectfully and professionally if we worked at companies and customers were complaining to us about our products or our treatment of something they wanted.

8
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 13, 2014, 11:37:26 am »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office, but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create, and the more these negative images invite the vocal bashing of Storm in this thread and several other threads on this site. I can understand the critiques and criticisms of how her character has been handled by various white writers and editors in the past, but a lot of this is still teetering in the territory of bashing Storm as though she is a real flesh-and-blood woman who made her own bizarre life choices as opposed to several white writers and several white editors MAKING her go down the paths they have shown her embarking on.

This is one of the MAIN problems with how Africans and African Americans are depicted...there are way too many negative images of us being floated around and posted, and there aren't enough POSITIVE images or depictions of us continuously being posted.

Instead if us gleefully posting images of Storm (a fictional African woman) getting her ass kicked, perhaps we should refrain from doing that, because we sure wouldn't be gleefully posting images of Black Panther (a fictional African man) getting his ass kicked, and laughing about it.

I think I've said this before, but the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther, only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did, and not because of something that the CHARACTERS actually did themselves, as though they are real people in real life.

I think the amount of venom spewed from both fan bases (against the other fan base's favorite character) over the years over CHARACTERS WHO DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST is atrocious and doesn't help or solve anything...it just makes matters worse.


Meanwhile those who like to say they're fans of both like to try and talk down to everybody else while supporting current writers and editors who like the folks before them ain't worth a damn either and neither is this character who's only significance now that we are to "see as golden and what makes a character awesome" is a mohawk and the ability to electrocute folks with a tan


Storm aka the comic book version of Condi Rice

Yes, I am a fan of both, Genki Sudo, and if you weren't so busy being so damn passive-aggressive in nearly all of your posts on here and CBR you would probably learn a lot of things about how readers SHOULD handle Marvel whenever they have complaints against the company, or any comic book company that is not handling non-white characters they way they should be handled.

I don't and never have bought into this whole "Black Panther fans vs. Storm fans" bullsh*t that has permeated various websites for years. That kind of mentality serves no useful purpose and just shows how we need to start acting like adults instead of "choosing sides."

And I'm not talking down to anyone, I'm speaking from my heart with what I feel is the truth. If you think I'm talking down to you, than that says a lot more about you than it does me. Don't blame me if you feel like you are being victimized by what I'm saying. If anything, I'm trying to help not only me but you and everyone else, to try and get us all to do what we need to do.

But as usual you have chosen to express negativity, pessimism and outright stubborness while actually doing nothing to change anything.

And YOU are one of the posters who likes to spew venom at Storm, but would hop on your "Hooligan" bandwagon if anyone spewed venom at Black Panther. In my eyes, that makes you a hypocrite.

9
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 13, 2014, 11:18:43 am »
Quote
I send Marvel Entertainment positive images of black people every chance I get.
What does this achieve exactly? It does nothing. I refuse to even attempt to get on a bus where I am not wanted. I would rather walk. Based on what they have done historically I'm good.

You are ASSUMING it does nothing. Have you ever tried it? If you did try it and you didn't get immediate results, you have to realize that the changes are not going to be immediate because we are battling DECADES of racist behaviors, racist ideas and racist attitudes, so the change WE WANT is not going to happen overnight.

If you DIDN'T try it, then how are you qualified to sit there and assume it won't achieve anything?

Does posting negative images of black people on message boards achieve anything, other than more negativity? Continuously posting negative images of fictional black women getting hit with hammers is not going to create positivity, because how would it?

Sending positive imagery of black people to Marvel will get THEM used to seeing positive images if black people, and if THEY continue seeing positive images of black people on a CONTINUOUS basis, then HOPEFULLY change will come for the better for all non-white readers, because hopefully Marvel will get the hint and start portraying ALL non-white fictional characters in the same way that they feature the majority of their white fictional characters...IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE.

But I realize all of this requires FAITH, POSITIVITY and OPTIMISM, which a lot of people in the comic book reading-public and a lot of people on message boards DO NOT HAVE, because their first immediate reaction is to be pessimistic and always expect the worst, but keep complaining when the worst happens because they refuse to do what is necessary to TRY and change things for the better.

It's always easy to be pessimistic, and negative, and to assume the worst, and to assume such-and-such method to try and change things for the better won't work, and to assume reaching out to companies to express our displeasure won't work, and to laugh and ridicule fictional black women for the ways in which they are written by white men and handled by white editors, but it requires a lot more patience, dedication, perseverance and a tough, unwielding, relentless mindset to do the dirty work and do what actually needs to be done in order for POSITIVE, PERMANENT changes to the comic book industry to happen in terms of how non-white characters are portrayed.

It seems that it's always easier for a lot of people to spew hatred and venom at fictional black characters (male or female, for a variety of reasons) then to band together and support as many fictional black characters as they can. Even if we don't like the current direction in which non-white characters are being taken, we could still try to support these non-white characters and demand that they be taken in better directions, directions in which non-white characters aren't pitted against other non-white characters and have non-white comic book readers bashing fictional black women every chance they get.

The overall big picture is, if you want things to change, then you have to BE THE CHANGE and do what's necessary to change things instead of bickering, snickering, spewing hatred for fictional black women when we all know the same would NOT be done for a majority of fictional black men. Constantly complaining on message boards to people WHO ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE changes nothing...it just reminds comic book readers what the problems are and just keeps feeding negativity. It's more logical to CONSTANTLY COMPLAIN TO THE COMPANIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY CONSTANTLY CAUSING THE PROBLEMS.

10
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 12, 2014, 12:56:59 pm »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office, but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create, and the more these negative images invite the vocal bashing of Storm in this thread and several other threads on this site. I can understand the critiques and criticisms of how her character has been hanled by various white writers and editors in the past, but a ot of this is still teetering in the territory of bashing Storm as though she is a real flesh-and-blood woman.

This is one of the MAIN problems with how Africans and African Americans are depicted...there are way too many negative images of us being floated around and posted, and there aren't enough POSITIVE images or depictions of us continuously being posted.
Then create them.

Here is something for some good measure.

This happened last night. It is the second annual men unity march in baltimore. I was in the back doing security patrol









I have access to tons of these.



It is out there. We just have to create it. There is nothing else to it. I do not accept that point I will never accept it. That victim crap has to end.

I send Marvel Entertainment positive images of black people every chance I get.

11
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 12, 2014, 12:34:52 pm »
Instead of continuously posting images of Storm getting bashed in the face with Valkyrie's hammer and continuously posting negative images of Storm that we can just about all AGREE ON that these were not good looks for her character, can we PLEASE START POSTING POSITIVE IMAGES OF STORM?

The continuous posting of negative images just reinforces everything we see as wrong with the X-Office, but the more these negative images are continuously posted, the more negativity they will create, and the more these negative images invite the vocal bashing of Storm in this thread and several other threads on this site. I can understand the critiques and criticisms of how her character has been handled by various white writers and editors in the past, but a lot of this is still teetering in the territory of bashing Storm as though she is a real flesh-and-blood woman who made her own bizarre life choices as opposed to several white writers and several white editors MAKING her go down the paths they have shown her embarking on.

This is one of the MAIN problems with how Africans and African Americans are depicted...there are way too many negative images of us being floated around and posted, and there aren't enough POSITIVE images or depictions of us continuously being posted.

Instead if us gleefully posting images of Storm (a fictional African woman) getting her ass kicked, perhaps we should refrain from doing that, because we sure wouldn't be gleefully posting images of Black Panther (a fictional African man) getting his ass kicked, and laughing about it.

I think I've said this before, but the Black Panther fan base is slowly but surely becoming just like the many Storm fans who dislike Black Panther, only a lot of the Black Panther fan base seems to dislike Storm because of stuff that past WRITERS and EDITORS did, and not because of something that the CHARACTERS actually did themselves, as though they are real people in real life.

I think the amount of venom spewed from both fan bases (against the other fan base's favorite character) over the years over CHARACTERS WHO DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST is atrocious and doesn't help or solve anything...it just makes matters worse.

12
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 11, 2014, 09:04:35 am »
If they really wanted to make Storm transcend the X-Universe,  this is what I would do.   Move her out of X- housing into a place on her own, maybe near her family.   

 :D ....maybe near her family.... :D

What family?  ;D






The one that is being created as you type this!  ;)

I was thinking of the family Reggie introduced us to.    Hmmm....thinking about it, since mutants seem to run in families, it seems she should have a mutant cousin or two.

uh oh....introducing anything Storm-related that smacks of Hudlin's enhancements to her character could spell quick and certain doom for this ongoing.

Yeah.

X-DWEEBS AFTER READING A GREAT STORM BOOK THAT INCLUDES RH'S BACKSTORY FOR STORM'S FAMILY: "She has a Black family? Dang. That might mean that STORM is ACTUALLY BLACK.


Nooooooooooooo!!!!

hatehatehatehatehatehatehatehate!!!"

Yep, something along those lines, possibly followed by: "They went and made Nick Fury black; then, they made the movie version of Alicia Masters black. They made a black Spider-Man. What's next...a black Johnny Stor....ummm..."

Well, that Black Johnny Storm is faintly possible because Sue Storm is Latina and the original Johnny Storm is now Captain America sooooo...

...but WAIT. Why not just introduce TChalla in the F4 as Stan Lee did, then swing him over to The Avengers via The X-Men? GRRREEEAAAT trio of launch pads for his own solo movie franchise, plus it adds much needed diversity to the first two franchises without straying too far from the comics premise. But naaahhh...that's too good of an idea.

I think the only problem with that is the Fantastic Four are with Fox and the Avengers are with Marvel Studios.

What REALLY needs to be done is for Marvel Studios to get the rights to ALL of Marvel characters for movies so that ALL of their characters will be under the Marvel Studios umbrella, but I don't know how likely that would be. However, if Marvel Studios was able to make an Avengers movie that included Spider-Man, are were able to make a Marvel Studios "Secret Wars" movie, the company would probably make oodles of more money.

I've never been a fan of various Marvel superheroes being sent to different movie studios, but I'm not a business man.

13
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 03, 2014, 03:27:19 pm »
Supreme Illuminati,

I'm really confused by some of your posts in this thread.

It's almost as if you're looking for any excuse to avoid looking at the elephant in the middle of the room.

The mere fact that the X-Office remained resolute in their decision to leave Reginald Hudlin to carry the weight of chronicling Ororo and T'Challa as a married couple should be a clear indication to anyone with a descerning eye to see exactly what agenda they were (and still are) pushing.

Posting multiple cans of Ororo doing battle with random mooks doesn't change anything.

allow me to clear up that confusion, my brother.

I am aware that the X-Office's agenda has been overall definitely and decisively anti-Black and most especially anti-Black mutant.

What I am trying to discern is if they have been 100% that way, so that I don't paint EVERYONE with the same broad brush.

The evidence that can provide a counterargument to the "100% hatas without exceptions" approach is/are books and works that show contrary evidence.

I labor under zero illusions regarding the overall, dominant, and consistent pattern of behavior that I have been aware of regarding the X-Office.

Actually that cover to Astonishing X-Men did come with a story as a alternate universe Storm was sacrificing multiple alternate universe Cyclops', the first issue even lead into that as alt universe Storm set her sights on 616 Cyclops with a kiss

Written by Pak and drawn by McKone


See? I didn't know that. I haven't bought X-books with any consistency in literally decades. Good catch, Genki Sudo the Neo Samurai.

I still think that Pak's amazing WAR MACHINE run destroys arguments that he has a pronounced or even visible anti-Black male disposition.

I will check out the STORM books and decide for myself if I see evidence justifying a change in my opinion.

There does seem to be a difference in how writers write black characters OUTSIDE of the X-Office's influence, and how those same writers write black characters WITHIN the X-Office's influences.

For instance, when Jason Aaron wrote Black Panther in "See Wakanda and Die", it was brilliant because he was writing outside of the X-Office and under the supervision of the rest of Marvel. However, when he wrote Black Panther a few times in X-books under the influence of the X-Office, he catered to Jerry Springer-type shenanigans and catered to haters of Black Panther/haters of the union between Storm and Black Panther. Jason Aaron made Storm and Black Panther look ridiculous (aside from "See and Wakanda and Die)" because the X-Office was involved.

14
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 01, 2014, 06:35:25 pm »

The weasel known as Logan has never been and never will be good enough for Storm. He literally stinks as a character, as evidenced as canon in a very recent X-Men book where Beast said he might be able to come up with a way to make the weasel have a less offensive odor.

Marvel saw fit to rip Ororo out of the arms of a black man who smelled great and throw her into the arms of a white man who smells like a dead wet dog. And now that THAT fling is kaput, they'll show her with her hand on Forge's shoulder, because, you know...
Yeah, at least she's not with a Black man.

*sigh* I really didn't want to talk about this, but I will. The whole Ororo/Logan pairing did not come out of left field. Storm fans have been clamoring for years for these two to get together. I have always been against this pairing for reasons I have already discussed at length on this board. For Wolverine, Jean Grey will always be his first pick, though he is NOT her first pick. If he were her first pick, she would have married him instead of Cyclops. Pairing Storm (or any woman) with Logan makes her a consolation prize. She's too good of a character for that. One of the reasons I was open to the idea of Storm and BP being rushed into marriage is prior to that, she and Logan were going on dates and stuff.  They were not yet an item as she was also going on dates with Nightcrawler, but the risk of her being with Logan loomed on the horizon for me. I don't want that. When Panther and Storm broke up, Marvel simply resumed the budding relationship that was brewing between Storm and Logan (Nightcrawler was dead at the time...he's gotten over that now, lol) and put a twist on it to jab a Panther. This was done not because Panther is Black, but because there was a certain enmity between the two men concerning Ororo's affections. So, pairing Storm with Logan had multiple uses for Marvel. 1) It would appease much of the Storm fanbase who hated the marriage and have wanted Storm and Logan to get together since WAY before a Storm/Panther marriage was even a concept. 2) There was already a foundation for the two of them to date prior to the marriage plus they share a long and profound friendship which is always good to build a relationship off of. 3) It adds a touch of drama/interest for those who follow Storm/Logan as it brings up the enmity between the two men. 4) Its a good way of letting readers know that the marriage is truly over because of reasons 2 and 3 on my list.

Pairing Storm with Logan has nothing to do with Marvel wanting her to be with "anybody but Black." If that were the case, they would not have allowed to marriage to happen in the first place. Even when sales were dipping on the title, they tried to preserve the marriage and title by bringing on Maberry. The focus on Shuri was the final nail in the coffin as that killed any hope the book/marriage had of rebounding.

All that said, it's out of character for Storm to just go into a relationship so soon after the break up. She's very slow to give her heart. Despite her and Logan going on dates prior to the marriage, it wasn't very serious at all. I still maintain that Logan is just the rebound guy.

The fact is that for DECADES Marvel has been pairing Storm up with numerous white men. That is the OVERALL picture here. I already know WHY Marvel does what it does...right nowI'm looking at the company DOING IT in the first place.

You could come up with a million reasons why Marvel enjoys having its black female characters in romantic relationships with white male characters and at the end of the day, the fact remains that Marvel is purposely keeping black women and black men apart, just like DC Comics does, and just like movies and television do. White men think about white men having sex with any ethnic female on Earth, and Storm to them is no exception.

If you were REALLY paying attention, you would have noticed this.

And what are your excuses for Misty Knight? Oya/Idie?

And what are your excuses for the black male characters at Marvel who are in relationships (if they are in relationships at all) with women who AREN'T black? Luke Cage? Falcon? Miles Morales?

And isn't it odd how Christopher Priest and Reginald Hudlin (two black men) wanted to put Storm and Black Panther together (Priest was told he couldn't and Hudlin was told he could a few years later), but any white writer putting Storm in romantic situations ALWAYS put her with white men (aside from Forge)?

Claremont started the romance thing between Storm and BP, but of course under him the romance never went anywhere and they were supposed to have parted, and years later when they met again they parted as "just friends." Then decades later when Claremont wrote that X-Men Forever crap, he had Storm kill Black Panther.

Isn't it also odd how AFTER Hudlin was no longer writing Black Panther, Marvel immediately did everything they could to keep Storm and Black Panther apart and THEN purposely destroyed the marriage, AFTER WHICH STORM IMMEDIATELY HOPPED INTO BED WITH another white man AFTER she was shown to be physically attacking her then-still husband?

Again, let's look at what Marvel has been doing to Storm for DECADES, and continues to do to her AFTER her marriage to a black man.

Also, Shuri had NOTHING to do with Storm and Black Panther's marriage being destroyed or rebounding. Storm and Black Panther could have been shown to go on a second honeymoon somewhere outside of Wakanda and Shuri could have still been in charge of the country, so I don't see your point about that at all.

The marriage "failed" because Marvel WANTED IT to, just like they WANTED Spider-Man's marriage to fail, and just like Marvel WANTS the Susan/Reed Richards marriage to succeed.

And your statements about how fans wanted to see Storm and the weasel hook up just shows that a LOT of Storm fans would rather have Storm under white men than a black man (Thor, Weasel-man, Nightcrawler, Namor, Cyclops, Dracula, etc. etc.) And your response just shows that Marvel caters to that type of crap.

15
Black Panther / Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« on: July 01, 2014, 04:14:38 pm »
Come to think of it...how many times has Storm gone up against and wiped out an entire evil human army (where you can see their faces), and not have said army be black men?




Most of this issue...



And a bunch more.

Just to bring the point home? The recent RoLo pairing and breakup ain't the first time they swapped spit.



I wasn't a major fan of it back then, either. I always thought she should be with TChalla, but moreso...as much as I liked Logan back then...I didn't think he's a good enough person for her. Back then, I couldn't shake the feeling that he'd have one berserker rage too many and he'd do something like this to her:




The weasel known as Logan has never been and never will be good enough for Storm. He literally stinks as a character, as evidenced as canon in a very recent X-Men book where Beast said he might be able to come up with a way to make the weasel have a less offensive odor.

Marvel saw fit to rip Ororo out of the arms of a black man who smelled great and throw her into the arms of a white man who smells like a dead wet dog. And now that THAT fling is kaput, they'll show her with her hand on Forge's shoulder, because, you know...

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