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Messages - A.Curry

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So...just watched that opening scene with TChalla and the traffickers again.

He didn’t do it alone.  Nakia helped, and Okoye came down and took out the last man while chastising him that he indeed “froze”.

This was his opening scene to his own movie.  There were hardly any fights he did alone outside of the one with Killmonger.  Actually, he didn’t really do that one entirely alone either.

First time Stark donned the red/gold IM suit, he took out an entire Arab holdover for hostages by himself, then took out a few fighter jets.  Cap went and freed and rescued an entire battalion of American soldiers from HYDRA by himself.  They both got to shine. Alone.  TChalla shared his shine.  This along with his sister “improving” his suit and then telling him how to frikkin’ use it.  Sigh.  In his first movie.

Oh and Ture?  Yinsen helped him build the suit but it was all Stark’s design and hell, Stark said he “needed” him to keep him alive and because he was wounded.  And Yinsen got killed so no possibility of him donning the armor lol.  And then?  Stark by himself IMPROVED on the design for the suit and his chest piece.


This is why they’re able to so easily replace him.  Coogler made this a “for the culture” thing and a “family” thing.  He made it so nearly anyone in his supporting cast can replace him.  People have been online saying everyone from Okoye to Nakia to Shuri to Mbaku to frikking Killmonger should don the suit.  Again, TChalla was made superfluous to his own franchise in the movie...

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Thing is that we have seen reboots, and recasts. Characters that have existed for so long should and will have different takes. If it's a character like say, Brian from the fast franchise where walker essentially defined the character for years. I still think that if walker passed after the first movie and the second was already green lit they would recast.



https://www.facebook.com/89650649583/posts/10158612385179584/

Maybe Shuri won’t get it after all since Letitia can’t play the Hollywood game right...there are stories now about M’Baku taking the role.  Killmonger too.  Sigh...just recast.

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@ Curry

Just to address something, of you go to the CBR forum, Redjack aka Geoffrey Thorne, has been talking about his one shot. And how's he has been talking, nah it's bot going to be passing the buck to Shuri. Basically it's going to be SWaD again with T'Challa unabated, and powerful


I’ll look Ezyo, what black Panther thread is this on and what page exactly?  I’d like to see.

Also..

.”Some wanted T'Challa gone/replaced long before Chad's death, and I fear they're using his passing as a launching pad. I urge actually Black Panther comic fans, and those simply fans of seeing our black boys and black girls both shine, to sign this petition and let it be known we wouldn't settle for one or the other.” -from the petition

I fully believe this and this is all I’ve been saying,  This is an opportunity for certain segments to take advantage and kill off TChalla, letting him die with Boseman so Shuri can take over and make Wakanda a mostly fierce black woman queendom and nation.  And it’ll mostly work in today’s climate where media and other outlets seem to really be uplifting black women, especially over black males.

I just argued with a friend who is for the recast who has daughters and believes Shuri should be given a chance.  Believes the hype about respecting Boseman’s legacy and not recasting and feels the other characters are strong and varied enough to explore further in the sequel,  Again, many are saying this.  And I do feel it’s because Tchalla’s supporting cast nearly outshone him in the movie.  Some liked and actually agreed with Killmonger so much that they think he should come back and redeem himself by taking the mantle and continue with his original plan in a more politically correct way.  TChalla was demonized a bit for not helping people outside of Wakanda in the movie, despite that he learned the error of this later.  The fact supporting characters were already doing this made him look clueless and oblivious to this.  I say again, a lot was given to the supporting characters and not enough to TChalla and this is why going on without him is plausible.  They made the movie a “family” thing and not one centered on the main protagonist.

You think they would have continued with Thor or Captain America without Thor or Steve Rogers?  Even with Jane Foster taking the mantle (which will likely prove not popular as it didn’t in the comics) Thor still exists.






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You said most but pointed out three specifically.

Anyway if Storm is already a part of the “progressive, woke” crowd by virtue of being an X Men why bother including Black Panther and Wakanda?

because black Panther and wakanda have an entire historical civilization of black people to play with. Way larger playing field.  Greater possibilities, plus already a billion dollar franchise.  And ones like Okorafor are interested in afrofuturism, which Wakanda represents.  But Ayala herself has already done both, so why wouldn’t they do both if given the opportunity? Didn’t Hudlin try to bring Storm over to try and be a part of the “black” crowd? Rhetorical.

How can we not be serious about Riri Williams when she has most of the attributes of Shuri?

yeah, except she’s not an afrofuturist princess of an advanced African civilization connected to a billion dollar franchise.  She’s a legacy character that hardly no one actually knows.

The princess of Wakanda too was castigated before she became the media darling by virtue of being in her brother's movie. So there's hope for M.

”hope” and “currently working” are two different things.  And I can guarantee most of them never heard of M.

I thought since Narcisse was brought in by Coates he reped the Woke crowd. 

was he?  From what I read Narcisse paid a lot more attention to TChalla and wrote him very well, so no, I didn’t consider him in that crowd.  Though I’m sure he’s supportive of them

The way you argued the “black feminists and WOKE” creatives perspective may have some thinking you're on their side but I know better.


Not if people have actually been paying attention to what I’ve been saying from the beginning.  But again, I’m not necessarily against the “woke” crowd.  A gay Dora Milaje couple was fine with me.  Hell, I don’t care if they actually made Shuri gay.  I just don’t want the erasure of TChalla and them taking too much advantage with that.

Marvel’s King In Black arrives in February

[color=red]I stand corrected on Thorne.  Maybe he will write Shuri as BP if they kill TChalla off in the comics as well.  We’ll see[/color][/color]



Written by Geoffrey Thorne with art by Germán Peralta

Of all we discussed in this thread it all comes back to the unprecedented display of film making; cultural and social impact; mass merchandising and financial success of an Afrakan superhero... T'Challa the Black Panther.

Afrakan people the world over celebrated this film for depicting an Afrakan man who was intelligent, compassionate and a leader not enthralled to western influences. They appreciated seeing strong and decisive Afrakan men. They rejoiced in seeing an Afrakan woman who was a technological genius and reveled in the fact that Afrakan women were working their own aesthetics. Marveled at seeing Afrakan men and women is supportive yet complex relationships.

Afrakan people the world over greatly admired this film for portraying a stunningly beautiful Afrakan nation untouched by Asian, Arab or European cultures nor suffered the horrors of invasion,colonization, captivity and enslavement. They embraced the righteous indignation of an Afrakan man seeking vengeance and desiring to free his suffering people through armed struggle. All this and more was the Black Panther.


And this is something they can't take away or undo.

So it doesn't matter what they do going forward. They can make Shuri the Black Panther, have her hang out with Hank Pym and acting humble and impressed by his big quantum realm. They can turn all the Dora Milaje into fierce lesbians with lots of on screen antics. They can have Okoye wearing wigs and appreciating it after divorcing W'Kabi. They can have Nakia fall in love with the sensitive, white boy social worker in her outreach program who happens to have a deep affinity for Wakandan culture. They can even have Wakanda experience drugs, poverty,tree house rape camps and military dictatorship. So what.

It just doesn't matter what they do.

With regards to the Black Panther, particularly the movie, the conundrum the “black feminists and WOKE” creatives find themselves in is one in which they are constantly reacting to and trying to overwrite something organically Afrakan from its inception as opposed to independently producing something inherently centered in their worldview. The “black feminists and WOKE” creatives can only corrupt what comes next in Black Panther while the Afrakan centered conscious crowd gave integrity to a film now considered a classic in the genre. The Afrakan centered conscious crowd already got their wishes fulfilled in spades.   

Historically whenever Afrakn people had organizations or mass movements grounded in their traditions the enemies of such (some within, most from outside) put forth counter measures to retard, subvert or dismantle such efforts. If there was Pan-Africanism then there was Socialism and Communism to counter. When Afrocentricism was posited it was met with Multiculturalism and Feminism. Currently it is Afrakan autonomy being blindsided by inclusion and representation. As this is a cultural conflict, it is one of spirit and ideology.

We've been here before in the pages of the Black Panther comic book. What Priest, Hudlin, McDuffie, Liss, Aaron and Narcisse did is written and printed. Its all over the internet. It can't be undone despite the efforts of Maberry, Hickman, Aaron, Coates, Gay, Harvey and Okorafor. If history is to repeat itself we shall witness the same chain of events manifest in film. The Boseman, Coogler, Cole and Russo era versus what ever comes next. The qualifier for all things Black Panther is based on how well Afrakan people and their traditional ancestral culture is represented despite the foibles. This is what Afrakan centered science fiction, speculative fiction and historical fiction should be grounded in. What is being the Black Panther is what is being Afrakan sans the corruption and perversions historically inflicted upon them. This is what in fact is the film Black Panther.


This is Afrakan excellence.



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How does an Afrakan goddess/omega level mutant and former queen sound? We know she's got nothing but potential. Some might say she has Xcellent potential.
Ororo Monroe aka STORM!

I didn’t skip over the obvious, that’s why I said “most”.  Storm is an excellent character for their imprint.  But from what we’ve been seeing, Storm will eventually be handled as well by “woke” black women (isn’t Vita Ayala already being praised for her recent handling of her stealing a sword out of Wakanda and furthering a rift between her and TChalla?) And honestly, Storm is already a part of the “progressive, woke” crowd being an X man, especially with their even more current social politics that’s going on in those books. I have no doubt she’s a part of their agenda, but it still doesn’t compare to an already made billion dollar franchise that encompasses an entire country with its own set of fierce, black female warriors, an African princess and ACTUAL queen by lineage in waiting who also will become the head of the franchise by taking the mantle.  That’s a lot more to work with and already set than a “former” queen and goddess with no actual followers or nation behind her.

How about a genius level scientist, inventor, engineer; former vigilante, adventurer and monarch of Latveria with a potential for gender neutrality and on page lesbian kiss compare? Lets not forget her connects with Stark, always a plus in the MCU.  This is a black Disney princess just waiting to be introduced.
Riri Williams aka IRON HEART!

Lol.  You cant be serious.  But sure, I’m sure they’re gonna find a black woke woman to work on her as well if they haven’t already.  But again, why wouldn’t they also go for the already built in billion dollar franchise and advanced nation with a potential queen at its helm?  Especially when Coates and others already opened the gates for that years ago?

What if we go with a bilingual, genius level intellect with perfect memory, superhuman intuitive skills, virtually invulnerable (at least enough to withstand common firearms at long range and direct blows of the vastly more powerful Hulk). Add to that she is a formidable hand-to-hand combatant at Class 10 strength. She even has a healing factor. Let me continue. She is a telepath with the ability to read minds, project her thoughts into the minds of others, and defensively mask her mind against telepathic intrusion. She is able to psionically levitate and move herself in the air by force of will, allowing her to fly at supersonic speeds approaching Mach 3 and she manifested minor telekinetic capabilities.
Monet Yvette Clarisse Maria Therese St. Croix aka M

Sigh. You’re really digging deep now.  Again, why dig into an honestly 3rd rate Xman and member of another franchise whom many don’t know about when Marvel themselves have opened the doors over the past few years to the far more popular and known franchise with a literal existing all black female army and queen/tech genius/action hero?  Especially when woke feminists have already been putting their imprint on it?


Two out of the three even have direct connects to continental Afrakan countries. Did I neglect to mention that all these woman are "black" with long flowing hair and the potential for interracial relationships? And you are telling me that “black feminists and WOKE” creatives would not want to write these women? Are you implying some elitist sensibilities are in use regarding “black feminists and WOKE” creatives? Or is all about them wanting to change Black Panther and Wakanda at the behest of the A.G.E.N.D.A.? [/b][/i][/size]

Im saying they likely would want to write all of them, given the opportunity.  But they have been writing the Black Panther’s world and currently that is the in the now and greater prize.  Also, of course I’m saying their are elitist sensibilities in use.  Most academics and “woke” people who come out of that crowd are highly elitist and intellectually arrogant.  And yes, I’ve said it’s about them likely wanting to change or see the potential in making Black Panther’s world more conducive to their “agenda” as you put it. Just like most everything else.  More “inclusive”, “progressive” and all the other buzz words. Marvel itself has been trying it for years so why wouldn’t they with Black Panther?  They already have been doing it.  And with Feige’s recent decision, it’s highly likely they’re going further with that route 

"Hell, it’s the same reason we are more interested in Black Panther than we are Falcon or War Machine." Interesting how both are now being developed into Disney+ series while T'Challa the Black Panther faces oblivion. Kind of funny how the “black feminists and WOKE” creatives weren't active during the late 90s when the Dora Milaje were introduced or in early 2000s when Shuri debuted.

Lol, yes. A Disney+ series...not actual billion dollar movie franchises.  A streaming service show vs. a billion dollar movie franchise.  So much faith in Sam and Rhodes lol.  Even Natasha after death got an actual movie. And remember, “Black Panther” doesn’t face oblivion, only TChalla.  Black Panther will go on along with “her” rich and varied world according to Feige.  Or whoever they decide to put in the suit since anyone can be the Black Panther.

And unfortunately, it’s not funny.  Marvel WENT AFTER the woke crowd when they asked Coates to write the character and his world, and he opened that world up to that crowd when he got Roxanne Gay and others into writing it.  Just because some of these efforts didn’t prove lucrative financially doesn’t mean they aren’t paying attention to it any longer nor see potential in the MCU world





Well no one can say that ole BP didn't give the feminist and woke creatives their shot at the title. Ta-Nehesi Coates, Roxanne Gay, Yona Harvey, Nnedi Okorafor all took a swing at bat and were struck out. Curious once again who you choose to omit. No mention of another member of that team, Evan Narcisse. He out wrote all of them.

I “omitted” Evan Narcisse because I don’t consider him a part of the woke crowd.  So why would I put him in their company?  This wasn’t about “who out wrote who”, this is about charting the agenda that’s led us to TChalla being made superfluous to the franchise and being replaced by his little sister, who many of the woke crowd potentially would rather deal with.  This is about how all of this leads to Feige’s recent decision.  There have been more “woke” writers in the comics franchise of late than there have been Evan Narcisses.  And Coates, who writing of the franchise is still coming out, has had several years of influence on it that is being paid attention to.

You’re also framing the discussion as if im on the “woke” crowd’s side in this.  Remember, I want TChalla recasted.  I don’t want Shuri taking the mantle and won’t go see the movie if she does.  But Feige has made his decision and this potentially will lead to the woke crowd getting mostly everything they want to see in the franchise, including a female BP.  That’s definitely what is partially affecting his decision with all of the pushing in pop culture lately for black female and woke representation.  And the comics likely will follow suit with TChalla dying with Boseman.  I still think if they had focused more on TChalla the character, there would be no question of letting him die with Boseman and going on with the franchise without him.  But I believe that’s what Coogler unconsciously did and allowed. They believe these supporting characters can carry the franchise without T’Challa.  And as popular as they made them, maybe they can, and it’s unfortunate.


I'll match your Vita Ayala against Geoffrey Thorne. See you in February.

Lol, again, she’s not “my” anything.  Ezyo himself pointed out that she’s the “woke” writer of the moment and she’s getting good attention. And if they go with a Shuri led Black Panther book eventually she’s likely a shoe in for it.  She’s also CURRENTLY working with Marvel.  Is Thorne?  Last I saw he’s over at DC getting ready to write John Stewart.

While Shuri is a millennial she's all Afrakan, Wakandan if you will. There's nothing Hispanic about her. Gender neutral, and gay? Naw miss Shuri with that.


if Ayala gets to write her I’m not sure you or I will have much to say about that.  I’m sure she, or “they” as she prefers, won’t necessarily make her Hispanic, but I’m certain they don’t look at being Afrakan or Wakandan in the same way and chooses to see it as “more diverse and inclusive” and Shuri more “fluid”.  And Coates already introduced a gay couple that almost made it into the movie in Wakanda.  With The MCU’s new woke direction now? A lot of things are likely.



"Lol...get ready for Shuri to explore all this in the comics. Not like her (or “their”, as I believe “they” will be referred to soon) sexuality has been defined yet." Whoa, slow down there aquatic sea person. Her gender was defined at the time she was created as a female, a sister and a daughter. Sheesh you can look at her and see that.

well, I was joking really, but in the woke world, and the current social politics now, gender is fluid and can be redefined and even changed! Lol. Not saying I entirely agree, but hey, again, who knows what Ayala may write if she gets her hands on her?  Iceman wasn’t always gay.  There were no gay Dora Milajes up until a few years ago.  In the current climate, why wouldn’t a writer like Ayala choose to introduce these things into Shuri?

Again, I’m just pointing out what I’ve seen coming for a while now, and it’s cemented with them potentially killing off TChalla in the MCU, which I don’t want.  But we’ll see what happens once the movie comes out and whatever else happens afterwards.  To me, going on with the franchise without T’Challa makes him superfluous (to them) to the franchise.  I don’t agree with it and would rather they recast or don’t do the movie at all.  Nothing more for me to say anymore on any of this so I’m out for now.  We’ll just see what happpens, but I actually do hope Feige changes his mind.  But he’s already opened the door on the expectations.






 
 









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Salutations Mr. Curry. This missive serves to inform you that you failed to reply to Post #3355 sent Yesterday at 09:08:43 pm. While we at the Wakandan Office of State recognize this was just a minor oversight on your part, we would appreciate your feedback. We thank you in advance and await your response.

WAKANDA FOREVER



Most everything in that post I already addressed in one way or another in my other posts, and even in my last.  As for female inclusion, hey, I agree with you.  I don’t think going forth with Shuri as BP for “greater female inclusion” is necessary.  I never cared for Shuri nor thought she was ever necessary in the first place.  And I liked the original concept of the Dora way better. 

My point was that the “black feminist and WOKE” creatives is going to take all advantage of this, writers like Vita Ayala and others who have been way more interested in the supporting women characters of Wakanda, fans online who are all for Shuri being BP and NOT recasting TChalla who argue “she took the mantle in the comics, so it was gonna happen anyway” and “anyone can be black Panther” and “let a QUEEN rule” and so forth.  Those who are for recasting and saying TChalla’s story was not finished being told are being shamed for not being okay with Shuri taking the mantle.  (Funny enough, it seems it’s mostly black women and white men who are doing this and for Shuri taking the mantle and letting TChalla die with Boseman.  I do see this as related to Coogler expanding so greatly on the other characters, especially the female ones, in the franchise and now? The writers who have not been very interested in TChalla and moreso in Shuri, Okoye, and others will have their chance.  All I’m saying. 

As for Harry Potter, there were plenty of arguments about how more black people needed to be in the franchise, and there has been a heavy movement since the movies in making Hermione black, saying she was like a white girl who used “black girl magic” and there have been theatrical productions where they’ve made Hermione black.  Lol there’s even a spoken word video on how Hermione is really a black girl.  And Rowling is cool with it,  Guarantee you, if they ever redo Potter Hermione will be a black girl.

But you can’t replace “Harry Potter” because that’s literally who he is.  Apparently, again, Black Panther can be anyone. So can Batman, but Bruce Wayne is so tied pathologically to the character it would be hard to do.  And he always comes back,  In the current MCU, hey are letting TChalla die with Boseman,  they likely will follow suit in the comics too.


Mr. Curry, thank you for the prompt reply. May I call you A.? I am in agreement with you on the original concept of the Dora Milaje. Just tweek it a bit. Two age appropriate women who are going to marry the king. A queen, of course, would have the Doro Milaje and two age appropriate men she was intent on marrying.

What is your opinion A. on why “black feminists and WOKE” creatives are so interested in Black Panther with such fervor. Surely their time could be better spent working on...









Why aren't “black feminists and WOKE” creatives storming Themyscira?



Simple. And for various reasons.  Most of the characters you have above don’t have the same cultural importance, power, world, or impact that BP and the world of Wakanda does. What’s Monica Rambeau or Misty Knight or Vixen compared to a black Disney princess who is also the tech leader in the world’s most advanced and all black civilization?  Especially one who, in the comics, had the mantle before and can again? Or a bald, black, female general who leads her own all black female army in that same world? Who cares about Wonder Woman and her mostly white amazons when you’ve already got it’s equivalent ready made in wondrous Wakanda? The playing field is vast and already there and ripe for the stories they want to tell.  Hell, it’s the same reason we are more interested in Black Panther than we are Falcon or War Machine.  And why the hell has Marvel not gotten Night Thrasher out of slumber if it’s so much about diversity truly?

Also, Marvel with it’s heavy focus over the last few years on diversity and inclusion has swung open those gates for women of color, but especially black women and especially with Black Panther.  Starting with the feminist and woke slant that Ta-Nehesi took, and all the social fanfare and goodwill a writer of his stature created, it bought in Roxanne Gay, Yona Harvey, Nnedi Okorafor, and who knows how many other black feminist woke writers to work on this, with, as Ezyo said I believe, Vita Ayala being the one of the moment.  Vita, who is millennial, black and Hispanic, gender neutral, and gay. Lol...get ready for Shuri to explore all this in the comics. Not like her (or “their”, as I believe “they” will be referred to soon) sexuality has been defined yet. 

None of these writers have shown much interest in T’Challa as much as they have the supporting characters.  Also, funny, none of them from what I know have been asked or shown interest in even writing Wonder Woman, Ms. Marvel, Misty Knight, or others. Wakanda, not necessarily Black Panther but Wakanda, is where it’s at.  (That being said, there is a new Wonder Woman being introduced that is a “woman of color”)

Also, as others made a good point on here, it’s not always about the money.  There is a paradigm shift happening in popular and social culture right now and a lot of it is focusing on black people with the advent of BLM and all (started by black, woke women) but a heavy shift on that is on academic, educated black women in particular.  Black women creatives, activists, politicians, and so forth are hot right now and with a “black” woman one step away from the presidency now, it’s made even bigger.  “Black girl magic” is everywhere, even with a new 007 as one.  And to a certain extent, it’s being done along with the demonizing and dismissal of black men quite a bit.

 And who would benefit moreso by letting die the most powerful black male comics character in comics, period, and letting a “less threatening” woman take over?  White men. It’s no coincidence to me that the major people I see wanting no recast and Shuri to take the mantle are mostly black women and white men


Again the demand for Shuri taking the mantle comes from a insular perspective and is vocal in certain spheres orbiting in the ether-verse. There are other domains in cyberspace insistent on maintaining the status quo concerning Black Panther. With regards to Harry Potter it wouldn't take much to produce Harriet Potter or create a new character with the same birth right as her predecessor and be the first woman to be a wizard at Hogswart. Kind of like what they may do to James Bond.


I think you’re underestimating that demand for Shuri, also the woke politics that are going along with it and the goodwill it can buy.  Again, if the case were different Feige would just recast.  Or hold off for awhile.  Don’t tell me this is all out of SO much respect for Boseman when there are ways you can spin it to recast and show Boseman respect.

As for Potter, true.  But at that point you’re creating a whole other character with no history behind it, you’re just changing his sex. They’d probably do better just giving Hermione her own movie, who was almost if not just as popular as Harry in the movies and books.  But that’s the difference, Black Panther is a mantle, Harry Potter is an actual person.  And it’s too easy for a Shuri to just take on that mantle wherein changing Harry’s sex would be more complicated.
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Salutations Mr. Curry. This missive serves to inform you that you failed to reply to Post #3355 sent Yesterday at 09:08:43 pm. While we at the Wakandan Office of State recognize this was just a minor oversight on your part, we would appreciate your feedback. We thank you in advance and await your response.

WAKANDA FOREVER


Most everything in that post I already addressed in one way or another in my other posts, and even in my last.  As for female inclusion, hey, I agree with you.  I don’t think going forth with Shuri as BP for “greater female inclusion” is necessary.  I never cared for Shuri nor thought she was ever necessary in the first place.  And I liked the original concept of the Dora way better. 

My point was that the “black feminist and WOKE” creatives is going to take all advantage of this, writers like Vita Ayala and others who have been way more interested in the supporting women characters of Wakanda, fans online who are all for Shuri being BP and NOT recasting TChalla who argue “she took the mantle in the comics, so it was gonna happen anyway” and “anyone can be black Panther” and “let a QUEEN rule” and so forth.  Those who are for recasting and saying TChalla’s story was not finished being told are being shamed for not being okay with Shuri taking the mantle.  (Funny enough, it seems it’s mostly black women and white men who are doing this and for Shuri taking the mantle and letting TChalla die with Boseman.  I do see this as related to Coogler expanding so greatly on the other characters, especially the female ones, in the franchise and now? The writers who have not been very interested in TChalla and moreso in Shuri, Okoye, and others will have their chance.  All I’m saying. 

As for Harry Potter, there were plenty of arguments about how more black people needed to be in the franchise, and there has been a heavy movement since the movies in making Hermione black, saying she was like a white girl who used “black girl magic” and there have been theatrical productions where they’ve made Hermione black.  Lol there’s even a spoken word video on how Hermione is really a black girl.  And Rowling is cool with it,  Guarantee you, if they ever redo Potter Hermione will be a black girl.

But you can’t replace “Harry Potter” because that’s literally who he is.  Apparently, again, Black Panther can be anyone. So can Batman, but Bruce Wayne is so tied pathologically to the character it would be hard to do.  And he always comes back,  In the current MCU, hey are letting TChalla die with Boseman,  they likely will follow suit in the comics too. 


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Exactly.  And do we think they’d go on with the next movie without him if they thought they still couldn’t make billions of dollars?

You think Aquaman sequels would be made if Jason Momoa died?  They probably would, but would recast him.  Why?  No one in that movie (no matter how dumb I thought Momoa’s acting was) can do what Arthur Curry does or outshined the lead character.  Mera might be the closest, but Aquaman didn’t have some little sister that made a suit for him or gave him his powers, didn’t have supporting characters so layered and with the ability to fight almost to his level that they were as memorable as he was, and so forth.  And AQ didn’t have half the cultural impact or importance Black Panther did.  But what they lost is that TCHALLA AS BLACK PANTHER is necessary.  But the way things were set up after the movie, and before it honestly? Anyone can be Black Panther.

Which is why they’re forging ahead without him.


No one did what T'Challa could do in his movie. For example, rip through the roof of a SUV; claw off a tire on a high speeding vehicle; bulldog a charging rhino; defeat M'Baku, Kill Killmonger; out run speeding cars on a highway in Bucharest, not to mention out distancing everyone else save Cap in the battle of Wakanda. T'Challa was not out shined by any supporting character.

Aquaman didn't make his suit either. It was a centuries old hand me down of Atlan’s gifted to him by the Karathen, who allowed Arthur to grab the Trident, which then caused Atlan’s body to disintegrate and thus Arthur getting some new, old clothes.  Shuri didn't give T'Challa any powers, she merely gifted him an updated  design of his Black Panther suit.

one that she had to instruct him on using, and a missed opportunity to show Tchalla’s engineering genius by transferring it on to her, something she never had in the comics. It made TChalla more of a bullet than the actual gun. And it took yet another thing away from him to make a supporting character great. And look, Aquaman is not as great as Panther. He’s not as smart or learned, so no one expects him to create a suit, but his powers and prescience are unique.  So is Tchalla’s, but they didn’t show enough of that in the movie to make it undeniable that he IS the franchise and that it shouldn’t go on without him..

Are you serious? Supporting characters so layered not to mention with the ability to fight almost to his level that they were as memorable as Aquaman? You didn't see this? First there was Atlanna in the lighthouse, Mera in Italy, Black Manta once he got outfitted with Atlantean armor, Orm in the arena

yet none of those characters were allowed to be on the level of the main character in terms of promotion, marketing, or action in the movie.  He was the center at all times and you knew it.  Hell, Okoye and Shuri were in marketing images for the avengers films!  Why?  They’re not even Avengers or marquee characters!  You didn’t see Iron Man or Cap supporting characters up there with the rest of the Avengers in marketing images..

How could Aquaman have half if not any of the cultural impact or importance that Black Panther had? It brought very little original or usable material necessary for that caliber of impact. The necessity of T'Challa was all through Black Panther. He spared M'Baku's life and made him an ally. Tried the same with Killmonger. He saved Shuri's life. It was T'Challa who told his father and ancestors they were wrong for not helping the rest of the world and it was T'Challa who initiated programs to do such and told the UN Assembly that Wakanda would join the community of nations.

all of these were subtle points that were not big or action oriented enough to really hit home that the character was the main star of the franchise.  Yes, he’s kind and shows humility.  He’s also flanked by everyone from Nakia to his mother to Okoye to Shuri instructing him and doing things almost as great as him. It just should’ve focused more on him and gave him everything he had in the comics.  Or were you for Shuri being made the one responsible for Wakanda’s advances and not T’Challa?  And of course Aquaman didn’t have the same cultural impact, it was at best a mediocre movie with an actor in the lead part with little range or depth.  That wa my point but I see you felt the need to elaborate on it lol. But again, I’ll bet if Momoa died, they wouldn’t just go on with “Aquaman 2” without the lead character.  How could they?

"Anyone can be Black Panther", you say that as if it is a bad thing. Yet and still no one did what T'Challa did. The removal of T'Challa from the sequel has nothing to do with what you stated. How do we know, because... Kevin Feige said so.

“I wanted to acknowledge the devastating loss of a dear friend and member of the Marvel Studios family,” Feige said. “Chadwick Boseman was an immensely talented actor and an inspirational individual who affected all of our lives professionally and personally. His portrayal of T’Challa the Black Panther is iconic and transcends iteration of the character in any other medium from Marvel’s past. It’s for that reason that we will not recast the character.”


LOL!!  Feige’s lip service in this statement is ALL about Boseman, not the character of TChalla!!  It’s about his portrayal, his iteration, all about the actor, not the character.  That’s what I’ve been saying, Boseman the actor, his portrayal, was made to be greater than the character itself. Feige in this is praising Boseman, not the character.  And the fact he believes the franchise can go in without the character speaks volumes to him and others not seeing the character as necessary to its future success.  That’s a problem.  If they did, they would’ve recasted.

the proof is in the actions.  They are going ahead with Black Panther without...the Black Panther.  But hey, since anyone can be the Black Panther, I suppose it doesn’t matter

https://www.superherohype.com/movies/490421-kevin-feige-says-tchalla-wont-be-recast-for-black-panther-2

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Brethren.

They're GOING TO BRING T'CHALLA BACK. No matter WHAT they're saying right now. Because? Nobody who stays in business says NO to a MULTIBILLION DOLLAR FRANCHISE. Especially because if they don't keep T'Challa poppin? The OTHER studios...who all stood at attention when BP broke all the barriers and records, who lust after creating such success for themselves [ DCEU is already testing the waters with a "light brown not yet Black" safe bet in The Rock/Dwayne Johnson's BLACK ADAM ]...will leap upon this multibillion dollar dropped ball from Marvel and run with it.

If we trust in nothing else from the racist House of Mouse? Trust in their greed.

T'Challa will be back. Literally BANK on it.

Taking a quote from CBR:

"Disney is sad enough to not recast T'Challa, but greedy enough to continue the franchise without him"


Exactly.  And do we think they’d go on with the next movie without him if they thought they still couldn’t make billions of dollars?

You think Aquaman sequels would be made if Jason Momoa died?  They probably would, but would recast him.  Why?  No one in that movie (no matter how dumb I thought Momoa’s acting was) can do what Arthur Curry does or outshined the lead character.  Mera might be the closest, but Aquaman didn’t have some little sister that made a suit for him or gave him his powers, didn’t have supporting characters so layered and with the ability to fight almost to his level that they were as memorable as he was, and so forth.  And AQ didn’t have half the cultural impact or importance Black Panther did.  But what they lost is that TCHALLA AS BLACK PANTHER is necessary.  But the way things were set up after the movie, and before it honestly? Anyone can be Black Panther.

Which is why they’re forging ahead without him.

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Brethren.

They're GOING TO BRING T'CHALLA BACK. No matter WHAT they're saying right now. Because? Nobody who stays in business says NO to a MULTIBILLION DOLLAR FRANCHISE. Especially because if they don't keep T'Challa poppin? The OTHER studios...who all stood at attention when BP broke all the barriers and records, who lust after creating such success for themselves [ DCEU is already testing the waters with a "light brown not yet Black" safe bet in The Rock/Dwayne Johnson's BLACK ADAM ]...will leap upon this multibillion dollar dropped ball from Marvel and run with it.

If we trust in nothing else from the racist House of Mouse? Trust in their greed.

T'Challa will be back. Literally BANK on it.

Except for one thing.  They’re not saying no to a multi billion dollar franchise.  They’re still going forward with a multi billion dollar franchise...just without T’Challa.  To them, to Feige, T’Challa is not necessarily the “multi billion dollar franchise”...Wakanda is.  If they actually believed the character was the franchise, they’d recast him. They’re not going to.  I know we on this board believe T’Challa IS the franchise, but a lot of people outside of here, including now Disney apparently, believes otherwise.  Believes the character can be laid to rest with Boseman and the franchise, the still VERY BLACK, VERY AFRAKAN, franchise can go on with Shuri or whomever in TChalla’s place and all the other “rich, varied characters” that make up Wakanda. That’s what’s being done.   The studios have spoken.

Will T’Challa be back if a new iteration of the MCU happens a generation or so from now?  Maybe.  But for now, they’re going ahead with the franchise without him.  Unless the numbers are SO TERRIBLE for this sequel without TChalla that it forces them to think otherwise...

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Quote
But here’s the thing: they’re gonna ask you why a black woman, or Shuri in particular, can’t do the same or similar thing for you.  Why can’t a black woman be the Black Panther and why is that unacceptable to you? (or me) when hey, it already happened in the comics anyway?  And don’t black girls need heroes too?

My point that some have been arguing against earlier is that despite however way we see it, a lot of time and energy was given to T’Challa’s supporting cast, to the detriment of TChalla I still believe. Especially the women.  Not entirely surprising, as I remember people on here complaining that Aneka and Ayo in Coates run was given too much time along with other supporting cast in the comic.  My point is, many people are not gonna be robbed of that feeling as you say because Wakanda and all the other characters in it will continue and while they liked or loved TChalla, they can invision the franchise continuing without him with his sister, Okoye, and all these other “rich, varied” characters that they like.  As some online are saying, “anyone can be the black Panther!”  So what’s the problem?  A woman can’t be Black Panther?

I literally had a guy tell me I must hate black women because I didn’t want to see Shuri replace TChalla as the Black Panther. Seriously.

In another sense?  For certain writers like Vita Ayala and other younger, feminist, woke crowd members, this is an opportunity to give Wakanda the black feminist woke slant they’ve been trying to create and write in the franchise for a while now.  And if you speak out against it you’ll be accused of not supporting black women when they’ve always supported you.  It’s like a playbook at this point.  Boseman is dead, out of respect let TChalla die with him and let his sister, who created his suit anyway, and who took the mantle in the comics (always thought that was a mistake too) take the role.  Why would you be against that?  (Hypothetical to make a point question)

I honestly saw this coming because I do believe the movie and the comics themselves for years were making the culture of Wakanda and the surrounding cast in it as big if not bigger than TChalla..  Boseman’s death has just sped up the process.  And with the rise of black women in media, business, and even the White House (Kamala to them is a black or at least brown woman and she’s been getting praised as such) they will feel this is timely.  Hypothetical question again:  why can’t you get the same feeling with Shuri as BP that you did with TChalla?  And don’t black girls need heroes too?

Posted by: A.Curry
« on: Today at 01:57:41 pm


I wonder who is asking these questions and if the reverse is true... why a "black" man, or T'Challa in particular, can’t do the same or similar thing for them?  Why can’t a "black" man be the Black Panther and why is that unacceptable to them (or you) when hey, it already happened in the comics anyway? Hell the comic book started and continues with him. Don’t "black" boys need heroes too? So why get rid of T'Challa?

This is why I feel the wrong questions are being posited. MCU Shuri is inspiring and did so in the same film as T'Challa without wearing the Black Panther habit and without replacing him. A so called black women can be the Black Panther and that is not unacceptable. As far as the comics go not only was Shuri the Black Panther but she was killed as such. I mean if you're staying true to comic canon go all the way. This dividing Afrakans up with females on one side and males on the other is artificial and non productive. MCU Shuri is inspiring not just to Afrakan girls but to Afrakan boys, Afrakan mothers, Afrakan fathers and Afrakan people.

The questions that should be asked is why Marvel is removing T'Challa from the sequel? Why can’t T'Challa the Black Panther continue his adventures? Don't Afrakan (so called black) girls, Afrakan (so called black) boys, Afrakan (so called black)  mothers, Afrakan (so called black)  fathers and Afrakan (so called black) people need Afrakan (so called black) heroes? Why are they removing one of these rare icons and why is that acceptable to you? If Ryan Reynolds passed away would there be the same response with regards to Deadpool?

That time and energy given to T’Challa’s supporting cast is what enriched the film experience. It beautifully displayed  Afrakan men and women in a manner hither to unseen in film or television. Regarding Coates' run, Aneka and Ayo were given all that time and still their story went nowhere and thus worthy of complaint and criticism. However remember the central and consistent complaints here at the HEF were what Coates did to T'Challa and Wakanda. Yea we had to make some noise about that nonsense.

"So what’s the problem?  A woman can’t be Black Panther?" Again wrong question. Women have been Black Panther, another courtesy first dropped by Shuri's creator. The question begging the answer is why get rid of T'Calla? It's not even being asked if there can be two Black Panthers simutaneously? It happened in the comic books.
.



I literally had a woman tell me that "Shuri is perfect as she is and has so much room to grow so why cant we have both as it is already in the first movie? Why do they  want to keep killing Black men. I'm so sick of this!" Whoa, nuff said.

Again in trying to make sense of things, for certain writers like Geoffrey Thorne and other "Black" culture conscious constituents, this is an opportunity to add to Wakanda and the Black Panther the "Black" excellence slant they’ve been trying to create and write in franchises not of their own making for quite some time now. What does it say about a person or any number of people who speak out against "Black" excellence?

It’s all A.G.E.N.D.A. at this point.  Chadwick Boseman passing away was the emotional lynchpin needed to enliven their artificial position of necessitating the removal of T'Challa and by proxy inserting Shuri. The insidious nature of this usurpation is the illusion that we must have one over the other where in fact the first film and following appearances proved this form of reasoning to be utterly false.

Fortunately the writing is on the wall or dare I say in the comic books. Marvel comic pushed Shuri as Black Panther in three series - Deadliest of the Species, Power and Klaws of the Panther; Marvel gave Wakanda its own ongoing series - World of Wakanda; Marvel added queer folk to the Dora Milaje - Aneka and Ayo; they hired a black feminist writer Roxane Gay; they even hired a black female writer of fantasy and science fiction, Nnedi Okorafor... and the results speak for themselves.

So let's start answering the right questions. Has T'Challa the Black Panther previously and continuously headed this franchise for the past 54 years? Yes. Does T'Challa need to be removed from the sequel in order for Afrakan women to see themselves represented? No. Can Shuri and T'Challa be Black Panther? Yes. Did T'Challa the Black Panther's first feature film set an all new, never before achieved standard of excellence? Yes.

So why mess up a good thing?


Why indeed?  Except they have. Apparently, Chadwick Boseman is just THAT irreplaceable in the role. The actor was allowed to become bigger than the character.  The movie was made to be more than just “T’Challa the Black Panther’s first feature film” and now the sequels will be “the Black Panther” without T’Challa.  Apparently, a large part of the moviegoing populace and Kevin Feige himself believe that “The Black Panther” can continue without T’Challa.   What does that tell you about what they think?

Understand, I would have rather he be recast.  But they aren’t doing that. (And I’m NOT going to see the movie without him in it) They’re going on without him and letting the character die with Boseman.  And since “anyone can be the Black Panther” as some are defending the decision online, they’ve made him superfluous.  But of course, it’s labeled as “out of respect for Boseman”

As for the part about black women, sure.  Hell, I think black women were heavily represented in the movie already and quite a few black women let me know that is the main reason they went to see it, because THEY were represented.  But this isn’t about “does T’Challa need to be removed for black women to be represented”, because of course he doesn’t. This is about them seeing an opportunity for even greater representation by a woman (most likely Shuri) becoming the lead character.  This is about them believing for some reason that the greatest way to respect Chadwick is to let the character die with him, but go on with the franchise. 

Again, I agree with you and Ezyo (except about the part that the movie was centered enough on T’Challa, and spent too much time overexposing his supporting cast.  Which, ironically, has now led to the franchise going on with his “supporting cast” and not him) but unfortunately, Feige, the MCU, and a large part of moviegoers don’t.

I’d personally rather they not do anymore sequels without him.

That being said, how many of you are going to support the sequels without T’Challa?  I’ve already made my intentions clear...








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Sharing my post from the CBR so people know where I stand

Quote from: Ezyo1000
Heres the thing, and don't take this the wrong way as in just explaining my own opinion.  It's like I said, there are people who don't understand, not truly, WHY Black Panther resonated so well. People read about or see images of kids and grown adults at the theater in tears when watching black panther and they don't fully grasp the magnitude of how important this franchise is to people if you haven't experienced it first hand what it's like to see yourself represented like that.

I remember as a kid I used to wish I was white sometimes just so that I could feel that same feeling my friends who were white felt when they saw Spiderman, Batman, superman, and pretty much any hero or just character in general doing cool sh*t who also looked like them.

When you have it all the time it's easy to, well take it for granted. I'm not a long time Black Panther fan, I actually didn't learn about the character till I was browsing online one day in 2014 and happened upon him and then started researching him. Instantly I was intrigued and immediately after reading his wiki page I started looking online for any Black Panther comics I could get my hands on to buy. I couldn't believe that such a character existed.

I became an instant fan. So while I haven't waited my entire life to see BP specifically on sense of following his comics, I have been waiting my entire life to see a character who is truly one I want to aspire to be like.

This is more than just seeing him go to war with atlantis or joining the Avengers, or interacting with certain characters. This is about seeing T'Challa the man who from his franchise comes from a fantastical place, change it for the better, he is a King among kings, a warrior among warriors the GOAT.

And it's about exploring this character, who has a ton of history and importance behind HIM, as he was the one who was holding his franchise together, now as a fan and a person who's waited for such a character, have that taken away.

First there's the tragedy of a truly wonderful person, I don't get star struck or really care to meet any celebrities but Chad was one of very few on my list, but then also by this idea that there can only be one Black person occupying a certain space. Chadwick talked about that, wanting to break that mindset. But now exactly what he was working hard to break has just happened.

The a Black male led franchise with the potential (we already seen what it can do) to hit Spiderman, Batman, Superman, and Bond  levels of success and household recognition, had had that very rare spot removed and it's going to try and split it between characters that frankly don't have any sort of weight behind them.

The one with the most, is M'Baku and he is nothing like his comic counterpart. They are trying to say Wakanda is bigger than T'Challa, he becomes a footnote in his own franchise while they try and make it work without any real Established.. anything to go off. Be it comics or even he MCU itself.

Every actor will always be compared to their predecessor when playing characters like T'Challa or Peter. That's just how it is, but at the same time none of these characters are beholden to any actor.

Chadwick realised how important T'Challa was to people. You don't need to see an interview with his spoon feeding it to know this, actions speak louder that words. When he talks about all my children and how his characters backstory, he could of kept quiet and got paid, instead he fought for change and more than stereotypes, he got fired but that led to his successor MBJ to get the character with  better foundation and depth to him which led him to success.

In 42 Chad studied Robinson videos to see how he moved and slid into bases so he could get it right, and argued with the directors about how the stunt double wasn't sliding how Robinson did in real life and they agreed to let him do it himself. For Black panther he fought to not have Wakandan speaking with a British accent and was willing to walk away if they didn't relent. He turned down endorsements that he felt would hurt T'Challas positive image for young kid's.

He's done all of that worked so hard.. do you think he would really be cool with T'Challa dieing with him? After all that work? To rob people of that feeling they had wheb they left the theater for the the solo movie? Straight up, Disney f*cked up. This announcement was in bad taste. They waited less than 4 months after his passing and announced not only are they going to start filming next year but T'Challas out.

Under honoring a character Chad fought hard to get to the big screen. No ones allowed to play the character. Sure it sounds nice when they pretty up the words but they have just said that this character is not important enough to continue and what he brings to the table isn't worth exploring. They say they want to Honor Chad while ignoring WHAT Chad was doing which was setting this character up for others to continue what he started and continue to inspire millions like he did.

You say they love the rich culture.. but not the Character, the Man who inspires greatness, the KING who inspired that greatness. Name another black hero that even matches up to T'Challas stature. No drugs, no baby mamas no gangs, or pimps, a good man with a good heart. People love Cap Because he represents american values. Well people love T'Challa Because he represents Black excellence and they took that character away from us because hey wanted to rush announcements and not let people have time (fans and the crew alike) to properly mourn


Beautiful post.  But here’s the thing: they’re gonna ask you why a black woman, or Shuri in particular, can’t do the same or similar thing for you.  Why can’t a black woman be the Black Panther and why is that unacceptable to you? (or me) when hey, it already happened in the comics anyway?  And don’t black girls need heroes too?

My point that some have been arguing against earlier is that despite however way we see it, a lot of time and energy was given to T’Challa’s supporting cast, to the detriment of TChalla I still believe. Especially the women.  Not entirely surprising, as I remember people on here complaining that Aneka and Ayo in Coates run was given too much time along with other supporting cast in the comic.  My point is, many people are not gonna be robbed of that feeling as you say because Wakanda and all the other characters in it will continue and while they liked or loved TChalla, they can invision the franchise continuing without him with his sister, Okoye, and all these other “rich, varied” characters that they like.  As some online are saying, “anyone can be the black Panther!”  So what’s the problem?  A woman can’t be Black Panther? 

I literally had a guy tell me I must hate black women because I didn’t want to see Shuri replace TChalla as the Black Panther. Seriously. 

In another sense?  For certain writers like Vita Ayala and other younger, feminist, woke crowd members, this is an opportunity to give Wakanda the black feminist woke slant they’ve been trying to create and write in the franchise for a while now.  And if you speak out against it you’ll be accused of not supporting black women when they’ve always supported you.  It’s like a playbook at this point.  Boseman is dead, out of respect let TChalla die with him and let his sister, who created his suit anyway, and who took the mantle in the comics (always thought that was a mistake too) take the role.  Why would you be against that?  (Hypothetical to make a point question)

I honestly saw this coming because I do believe the movie and the comics themselves for years were making the culture of Wakanda and the surrounding cast in it as big if not bigger than TChalla..  Boseman’s death has just sped up the process.  And with the rise of black women in media, business, and even the White House (Kamala to them is a black or at least brown woman and she’s been getting praised as such) they will feel this is timely.  Hypothetical question again:  why can’t you get the same feeling with Shuri as BP that you did with TChalla?  And don’t black girls need heroes too? 



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My problem with the cw performance was that he didn't actually accomplish much at all. Yeh he looked badass but when you break it down, what did he actually do? Fail to kill Bucky like 3 times, got out into a headlock by hawkeye, and was the only one trying to actually kill anybody and failed.

Whereas he movie? Wrecks an entire trafficking crew at the start of the movie. Beats M'Baku and shoes his morality and forward thinking by still showing his defeated opponent Mercy and to think of his people. Wrecks klaw and crew, shredding cars like it's nothing.

I have to say, I was never that much impressed with him breaking up a bunch of traffickers in that opening scene.  Nakia was already planning to do that and likely could’ve done it on her own.  They’re just...traffickers. Thugs.  Cap’s opening scene in Winter Soldier, for instance. Taking out a ship full of hydra agents and then beating down Batroc intentionally without his shield made for a much cooler scene.  And he had Shuri’s and Okoye’s help in taking down Klaw. That’s the scene where she had to instruct him on releasing the energy from his suit. Again, the argument isn’t that he didn’t do anything in the movie, it’s that his supporting cast did almost just as much and got nearly equal shine, in some ways arguably more

Even against Erik in the warrior falls fight, he could of killed him twice had he chose to, despite being completely shook. When he was gone it was clear that only M'Baku was the only person who was even close to being able to challenge Erik and even he knew he wasn't the right direction for Wakanda and taking on Erik.

I don’t see what this has to do with anything.  The point is these other characters had prescence and even if M’Baku knew he wasn’t the right way to go in defeating Killmonger, the fact is he likely could have.  That’s not including that Killmonger just walked in and took over Wakanda as easily as he did.

Yes he wasn't as much in Terminator mode (except probably during the car chase and he was savage there) but he actually was able to accomplish so much more and show just how deadly he was. And he was the only solo hero character who has killed his villain in an non-debatable clear cut victory without any assistance or the villain Killing themselves. I think honestly his supporting cast wasn't that over developed really, but marvel does such a poor job of developing a characters cast (see thor's warrior's 3) that their focus seemed like they overshadowed T'Challa when they didn't.

again, all of this is notable, but it doesn’t take away the fact that even you say it “seemed” like the supporting characters in BP overshadowed the main protagonist.  Most fans of the movie views it with less scrutiny, and to them the other characters were just as notable as BP was.  If T’Challa was this important overall to them and the franchise, they would just recast.  But the arguments have been more about Boseman’s performance as T’Challa, not T’Challa himself!  And there’s more arguments for Shuri taking over than recasting him.  There’s even arguments for Killmonger coming back from the dead and taking the mantle.  T’Challa should have been made important enough where none of these arguments would hold weight.  And they obviously think there’s enough to work with in the next movie without T’Challa.  This shouldn’t be the case

I think at this point they are rushing the sequel. If the took a minute and actually delayed the movie (especially since Letitias recent tweets) and waited till says 2022 to start filming, it would give time to pass for a recast to not be such an unimaginable option and the guise of honoring Chad wouldn't be an excuse anymore.

yeah, I’d rather they do this.  But a lot of people are for passing the mantle to Shuri and letting T’Challa die with Boseman. What does that tell you about the overall importance of T’Challa to the franchise to them?


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I don't find an argument with Black Panther being T'Challa's story, his movie and yes his franchise. While one of his pertinent skill sets were transplanted to another character, everything was centered around T'Challa the Black Panther. Shuri was T'Challa's sister; Killmonger was T'Challa's enemy; Nakia was T'Challa's love interest; Okoye was T'Challa's general and Wakanda was T'Challa's home. No other way to cut it. There is or was so much to build upon.

Shuri wasn’t just T’Challa’s sister, she was also Wakanda’s lead scientist in tech and was made responsible for most of if not all of Wakanda’s advances. Also the one who designed his suit and was made to look like she knew more about handling it than he did. Okoye wasn’t just his general, she was made to look like she was his teacher by guiding him in ways (don’t freeze) and having nearly as much on screen fighting and action as he did. And Wakanda isn’t JUST T’Challa’s home, it’s all of their home...even Killmonger’s by right of royal decree being part of the actual family. You’re right, there is so much to build upon that doesn’t necessarily need T’Challa to do so because all of these other characters have so much to work with without him. Which is exactly what the MCU is going forward with.

Iron Man got three solo films and primary roles in four Avengers films; was the main antagonist in a Captain America film; and had a prominent outing in the first Spider-man movie and was hero worshiped in the second. Same basically applies to Cap and Thor sans the Spidey movies. And yet none of their solo films had greater cultural impact nor made as much at the box office as Black Panther. T'Challa  proved himself in a very big way on his first solo outing and yet somehow he's superfluous? Really, not really. The push to replace T'Challa has little to nothing to do with any supporting character being bigger than T'Challa.

of course the movie had a greater cultural impact overall because the movie was as much about an entire advanced African nation and it’s people than it was about the protagonist. “Wakanda forever” isn’t about T’Challa, it’s about the entire nation and all in it. Black women particularly, and people in general, went to see characters like Shuri and the Dora Milaje just as much, if not moreso, than they went to see T’Challa.  Iron Man focused on Iron Man, he didn’t have his little sister responsible for his suit or all of the tech in Stark Industries, or lecturing him on how “everything can be improved”. He didn’t have a cabal of warriors and a general who was fighting and in the action almost as much as he was. Black Panther was as much about the surrounding family and characters and nation as it was about T’Challa when it should have been the other way around. Which is why they feel they can make the next movie without him. No one would’ve made “Iron Man 2” without Tony Stark.  Yet they feel these other characters can carry the movie without T’Challa because Wakanda, with or without T’Challa, is still of interest. How does that not make him superfluous?



Other super heroes have had far worst done to them than the migration of some of their talents to their supporting cast. Nolan's Batman trilogy is a good example of the gutting a character. Batman didn't show any complex fighting abilities; no detective skills nor escape artistry; no master of disguise nor tactical or strategic acumen. He was basically a brute and the Joker told him such. Lets again be clear, Ledger's Joker simply outclassed Batman while Jordan's Killmonger simply held a righteous indignation over T'Challa's head. And yet there is no cry for the non-necessity of Bruce Wayne aka the Batman. He just keeps getting recast and having different iterations presented.

As you’ve stated before, Batman has had decades of development and advances in his storytelling in movies, cartoons, and comics, so a weak showing by him doesn’t hurt as much, but in the end he was still the focus of heroism in the Nolan movies.  Outside of the villains, he didn’t share as much time with supporting characters that were as dynamic and colorful and skilled as everyone from Shuri to the Doras to Okoye to Nakia was. Gordon and Lucius were not a part of the action in the ways those characters were.  I agree that Batman in the Nolan trilogy was a weak Batman, but he was still the focus.  Plus, Batman at this point is Batman.  The world outside of the comics was just getting to know T’Challa 

Its like T'Challa is being penalized for having well developed three dimensional supporting characters that didn't rely on gimmicks or sex to prove their worth. Again to show who was the center piece let look at the following. Shuri's BP suit while having the advantage of easy storage and kinetic energy discharge was easily disrupted by sonic stabilizers due to its nanite design. T'Challa's design may not have this vulnerability. Not to mention T'Challa figured out that design flaw not Shuri.

T’Challa isn’t being penalized for this, the makers of the movie are. And in the end, it doesn’t matter if T’Challa figured out a design flaw in Shuri’s BP suit in a singular moment in the movie...the over arching theme is that she invented the suit and she is responsible for the advances in tech in Wakanda, not T’Challa.  T’Challa’s design “may not” have had this design flaw but we never got to see that.  Of course, none of this would matter if it was shown that T’Challa himself invented the BP suit and was the one majorly responsible for the recent advances in tech in Wakanda. No one is arguing with Stark about his suit because he and he alone invented it and evolved it.  This is made very clear in his movies.

Okoye could be the greatest warrior while T'Challa was thought to be dead by Nakia. However what we saw was Okoye and three Dora Milaje loose their fight with Killmonger as did the Nakia and Shuri tag team. It was T'Challa who beat Killmonger by himself. As far as activism is concerned, it was T'Challa who bought the buildings in Oakland to set up the tech exchange and social outreach. And again it was T'Challa who spoke before the world assembly at the UN on global unity. This is the genius of Coogler's Black Panther... its subtlety.

Didn’t Shuri help T’Challa in his fight with Killmonger by starting the trains up or something like that?  I remember him telling her to turn something on during the fight.  And yes, T’Challa bought the buildings in Oakland and set these things up after being shamed by Nakia for not doing more and as a reaction to what his father did to Killmonger. The character is reacting to what others are showing him when he should already be informed and acting on these things due to his awareness and intelligence about the world.


The debilitating aspects of T'Challa the Black Panther that often go unmentioned occurred in Civil War and Infinity War. It was in these two films where we see T'Challa's ineffectiveness as protector and poor judgement as a king. The former resulted in King T'Caka's death not to mention the capture and release of Zemo ... the man responsible. The latter sees Wakanda being invaded by a hoard of aliens. What kind of king invites a galactic threat to his doorstep and jeopardizes his people and their nation to save an android's personality?

Have to agree with you on most of this, but I think the overall thing in those movies is that he “looked cool” and was not outshined in any way by his supporting cast, especially in Civil War, since they were not yet present.


15
Marvel Won’t Recast Black Panther; Plots ‘Fantastic Four’ Reboot; Casts Christian Bale in ‘Thor 4’

http://variety.com/2020/film/news/marvel-black-panther-fantastic-four-reboot-casts-christian-bale-thor-4-1234851345/[/

Definitely agree with a lot of what you're saying here. Any comic book character, most especially those that have been around for decades, are 'bigger' than the actors who play them, even those who give what many might consider definitive performances like Boseman, Christopher Reeve, or Wesley Snipes.

The issue you had with how T'Challa was made sort of unnecessary in his film was one I had as well. I thought T'Challa had a better outing in Civil War. He was formidable, relentless, and cunning. But in his own film he often had to share space or take a backseat to other characters in ways that made his character less important to the goings on. In Civil War he got to be one of those dynamic characters and perhaps got such a role in order to sell him to the audience. But in his own film, it's like they wanted to also sell the supporting cast and Wakanda, the idea and the nation. I'm just glad they twisted the story back around by the end to make it where only T'Challa could defeat Killmonger.

When I was looking at Fiege going over all the upcoming MCU stuff what he said about Mr. Boseman's take on the character, as surpassing (my words) all over versions didn't sit well with me. No disrespect to Boseman, but I liked Priest and Hudlin's takes on the characters, especially the Machiavellian Panther of Priest's run, a lot more than the MCU depiction. Though I imagine that millions around the world were first introduced to the character through Boseman and the BP film, that alone, as well as its popular doesn't supersede the other takes on the character IMO. Cloaking the decision to not recast in that kind of language is a bit suspect to me, even though I get it, and have argued for not recasting myself to honor what Boseman brought to the role and perhaps to teach a lesson to all of the young BP viewers about the fragility of life. But I've never thought that Boseman's take was the definitive one. As much as I love Christopher Reeve's Superman, I can't even say his is the definitive one, though I definitely love what he did. In time I've come to accept most of the others who put on the cape and I also think in time many can also do the same if T'Challa was recast.

The big issue here is though is that black characters don't get those kind of second and third chances much, and so I can understand the trepidation that not recasting T'Challa might mean him being sidelined for a long time or written all the way out of his own franchises.


Totally agree about TChalla in Civil War vs the Black Panther movie...its the main reason why the film is not as great to me as some made it out to be...the main protagonist pretty much was the most uninteresting and uninspiring character in it.  It’s the reason why I’ve never watched it again since it was in theaters.  And all due respect to Boseman, but I don’t think his take was that definitive and another actor might even do better.  I think the only reason they are so hard on that point now is because he died.  Not entirely his fault, they didn’t give him much to do.

That being said, I was all for the recast as I was hoping they improved their take on TChalla and would’ve loved to have seen JDW in the role.   But I figured this would happen and if you’ve been paying attention, most writers of BP or Wakanda post Coates take very little interest in TChalla the character and moreso in Black Panther and Wakanda as a concept.  Thats why Mind of Shadow’s observation on the BP boards at CBR makes sense.

And mark my words, if they go through with this Tchalla’s days in the comics will be numbered as well.


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