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Messages - sinjection1

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It is just the norm for the rules of magic; if you know the answer, the word, pass the test, then you get a pass/you win.  This is within the very old tradition of magic questions/quests..

hmmmmmm.... :-\

Bast did say:"...All that exists is this moment and the question of purity."

But I'm not so sure it's that simple. If it was just a simple answer to a simple question or a password Bast required...if it was as simple as having Doom navigate a maze or run an obstacle course of some sort, I could see this. Bast required something more; a lot more in my view.

Bast went on to say: "I will look into your soul, Victor Von Doom. If you lie to me, if your heart is impure, if your motivations are tainted by greed or hatred, I will know...Lie to me, Doom and I will devour you!"

Bast knew Doom was foul. She said: "Can you count the numberless dead who have perished for your dreams? Can you tally the harm you have done to those you hate and those you love? You are a monster, Doom!"

To this point, Bast is on her game. Earlier Bast told Doom that if his heart was tainted by greed or hatred, she would know. When Bast asked Doom if he could tally the harm he has perpetrated against those he loves and those he hates, she knew then and there Doom's heart was tainted by hatred. Bast correctly identified Doom as a "monster" and should have devoured him then and there.

If Bast wasn't sure Doom's heart was tainted by hatred at that point (she sure seemed to be) when Doom went on to ask Bast "Do you know why I despise Richards and T'Challa?", that question should have been the clincher that Doom's heart was tainted by hatred.  Let's look at that word despise. One word used in common when defining the words hatred and despise is aversion. Aversion describes an intense dislike for a person or a thing and a desire to avoid the person or thing so disliked. Doom's heart was tainted with an aversion, a contempt, a hatred for both T'Challa and Reed Richards on a personal level. Bast should have eaten him right then.

If this isn't enough to convince you, recall Shuri's trial to become the Black Panther. When Shuri made her case before the Panther God, she told Bast that she was "ready for this", she had trained her entire life for this...basically, Shuri's case to Bast was that being the Black Panther was her "destiny". Bast dismissed Shuri telling her she was no Black Panther, turned her back on her and stalked away. Shuri had to prove herself worthy of the Panther mantle in battle against Morlun, not for personal glory, but to protect her nation from an unspeakable threat. When she did so, she became the Black Panther.

Doom basically used that same "destiny" approach on Bast and she seemed prepared to reject it, but inexplicably allowed Doom to continue making his case. We all know by now that though Bast rejected Shuri's "destiny" approach, she accepted Doom's. That's when Bast succumbed to her "Maberry moment" and did the unthinkable, granting Wakanda's greatest resource besides the Panther and her people, to a murdering meglomaniac.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Neither Ra or Horus would have let Doom get away with it.

Ra might not have allowed Doom to get away with it; Horus might not, but Set....Set would have let Doom slide by. That's the thing with having a pantheon of deities. Some of them might be for those who worship them, others might be against those who worship them, while the rest really couldn't care less about those who worship them.

Set = Loki. Odin was angry at Midgard because those who worshipped the gods of Asgard had turned their backs to them; Ra was in a similar boat with his followers and they were subsequently punished. Eventually, Ra left the world's affairs in the hands of Horus who had to deal with the enmity of his brother Set. This relationship mirrors that of Thor and Loki. Odin was indifferent toward Midgard. Thor was protective of Midgard. Loki wanted to mess things up for Midgard, Asgard, the Texas Tech nose guard, a can of Right Guard....Loki just wanted to mess things up for everybody and everything whenever it was possible to do so. Set is very much like Loki in this regard.

Ra has moved beyond the concerns of mortals, having charged Horus with that task. Set has animus for Horus and attacks mortals, particularly those who worship him, to discomfort Horus. I could see Doom knowing enough about this contentious relationship between the godly brothers to take advantage of it. It's possible that appealing directly to Set, Doom could have absconded with Ra-Horus-worshipping-Wakanda's vibranium. Maberry could figure out a way to get that done.

If you want to blame somebody, just blame the Wakandan ancestors for worshipping the wrong gods.  ::)

I think the monotheistic Wakandans are ahead of the game. Polytheistic peoples have to satisfy the whims of multiple gods, appeal to one god and risk angering another. Worshipping one god is easier than trying to appease 20 gods, wouldn't you say? Doom just happened to catch the Panther God while she was having a "Maberry moment". How else to explain her bizarre decision to turn over Wakanda's refined vibranium to a murdering meglomaniac?

Interesting points.

Maybe the Panther God demands self reliance from his avatar (BP)only. The proof of fitness is not a one time deal it has to be proven at every turn.

I think that ultimately, it is up to whoever is writing the story to decide what the Panther God demands of T'Challa or Wakanda at any given time. T'Challa has proven himself to be self-reliant on many occasions. Although he might suffer from feelings of inadequacy whenever he compares himself to his father T'Chaka, T'Challa has been a magnificent King of Wakanda in his own right. Not only did T'Challa show himself to be self-reliant when he single-handedly and without aid of Bast (given Bast's attitude toward T'Challa in Cry The Accursed Country, her Wakandan avatar could have died and she wouldn't have blinked an eye as she intended to kill him herself if he proved himself unfit in their final battle) he had proven his self-reliance and worthiness many times previous to that episode and since that episode.

T'Challa didn't pray to Bast for the wisdom to create his techno-jungle; he went out, became highly-educated and earned the brilliant mind which enabled him to achieve such a remarkable feat. It was in that techno-jungle the Panther was able to defeat the Azanian who Bast had possessed, but not the goddess/god itself. I would say T'Challa more than Bast, has been responsible for Wakanda's security and success. T'Challa placed his faith in what to this point is a Jonathan Maberry-created false god who would abandon her avatar and the people who have faithfully worshipped her all on the basis of hypocrisy and deceit of an outworlder who couldn't give a damn about her, her avatar, Wakanda, Egypt and all the cats living there, or the world in general. It's a case of "writer's choice" here. If Ture were writing DW, Bast would have remained true to the Panther and her Wakandans and Doom would be Bast poop by now. The greater comicbook-reading demographic would have hated it. The book probably would have been a smashing failure, but at least Bast wouldn't look as stupid, gullible and traitorous as she appears to some of us. I for one, would have gladly put the $3 in Ture's pocket for writing a Bast that Panther fans would have expected.

The Azanian incident was provoked due to T'Challa inaction rather than Bast having any especial interest in black Azanians.

I don't happen to have an issue of that series handy right now and admittedly, my memory isn't as sharp as it used to be; however, I seem to remember Bast referring to the Azanians as her "people", accusing the Panther of ignoring Azanian cries for assistance and angry because while T'Challa would send money and covert assistance, it wasn't enough in Bast's judgement. I believe she said something to the effect that T'Challa's money couldn't cover the scars on their backs or something like that. In any case, IIRC, Bast did have more than a passing interest in the Azanians. T'Challa was doing exactly what Bast should have expected him to do. As King of Wakanda, he was responsible for keeping Wakanda safe, secure and powerful; this he did. Was T'Challa also responsible for freeing black citizens of a foreign country? According to Peter Gillis' representation of Bast, T'Challa certainly was held responsible. J. Maberry's Bast however, chooses to take the words of a known liar, thief, and murderer over her faithful servant. He has made a ton of Black Panther-hating comicbook fans happy which = money in his pocket I would suspect. I like the upgrades he has made to T'Challa so far and those he plans on making in the future. I just want to see those upgrades in action on Doom, preferrably humiliating and physically maiming him in the process.

And now in Doomwar the PG wants to know what is T'Challa going to do to take what is his back.

I hope Maberry doesn't have T'Challa taking the same path as Bast. Having T'Challa surrendering to Doom and telling him that he now sees the wisdom of the Panther God, that what Doom took from Wakanda wasn't truly Wakanda's to have in the first place, and finally, asking Doom if he could be a general in his army of Doomworld or at least, chief domestic of his castle butler and maid staff.

Writers have to start giving T'Challa the dignity his character deserves. The decision to do so might make for a poor-selling product as it appears many if not most of the denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" prefer their Black Panther as a subordinate rather than as the powerful character he was created to be.

Maybe Bast is like Conan's Crom.. If you're not fit enough to survive on your own he would just simply let you die rather than interfere on your behalf.

But then, how would that explain Bast's actions in Black Panther:Cry The Accursed Country ?

In that story, Bast was so disgusted with T'Challa's seeming lack of action against the racist regime of Azania, that she abandoned him and entered the body of a black Azanian political prisoner being tortured at the time. Possessed by Bast, that prisoner then went on a killing spree within Azania which terrified the white populace, excited the black populace and gave both reason to believe that the killings were being committed by the Black Panther preparatory to a possible invasion by the Wakandan military.

The black Azanians were unable to throw off the yoke of oppression visited upon them by the white minority. Black Azanians knew of the Black Panther, the Black Panther cult, and the might of Wakanda, but black Azanians didn't worship Bast. Why then should Bast take up the cause of people who didn't worship her? On the other hand, T'Challa was able to defeat 5 white super-powered agents of Azania without the aid and guidance of the Panther God, proving that he was indeed "fit enough to survive" on his own.

What did you think of that Cloak character & Dagger 1 shot that came out recently? 

CLOAK and DAGGER one shot:

The artwork was very nice. Mark Brooks renders a very nice Cloak. The coloring was strong as well. I liked the way Dagger actually appeared to exude "light". I wasn't especially pleased with Tyrone's hair coloring. I liked the braids very much. I once suggested that since Ty and Tandy have been on the run for so long, that Ty probably has not had much opportunity to visit the barber. For that matter, Tyrone would have to expend a lot of effort to make himself appear normal for the duration of his haircut.

Unfortunately, I felt the story was lacking somewhat, but it wasn't the worst I've seen. I do like the fact that Tyrone was involved with a young lady other than Tandy. While at the CBR, I suggested that Tyrone should get a new female love interest, one resembling Rihanna. Lo and behold, Tia did have a little Rihanna "something" about her. I read some of the comments posted by a few CBR members who'd read the book. One member was a bit put out because this time the script was flipped. It wasn't Tyrone pining for Tandy. After her allowing herself to be kissed by Spider-man while in the presence of Cloak, after carrying on flirtatiously with Bill Clayton, this time it was Tandy who had to deal with the possibility that Tyrone had found someone else. I believe their relationship has been established and now for the future benefit of Cloak and Dagger, it should be put on the back burner. No more stories about Cloak's unrequited love for Dagger. No more insisting that Tyrone and Tandy be rendered in an actual kiss or more. I sense a reluctance in writers to write something like that because seeing black Tyrone kissing blonde-haired/ blue-eyed, pure and glowing white Tandy might not sit too well with some denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans".

I really enjoyed how they depicted Cloak's teleportation effect and how his "darkness" is able to extend beyond his cape to ensnare an opponent and draw that opponent into the cape. No more needing to extend the cape over his target. I also appreciated how Cloak is able to will himself to a normal appearance. A flesh and blood Tyrone has many, many possibilities.

What frustrates me is the following:

- Why is it Cloak is usually intangible until he is somehow "disabled" during a battle? Whenever something happens to Cloak during an attack (having his cape ripped from him by a super-powered little girl mutant, for instance) causes Cloak to revert back to Tyrone as if his being Tyrone is a bad thing. Cloak should be able to become Tyrone at will and vice versa.

- Darkness is the natural state. Light is transitory. When our sun burns itself out, it will become a black hole and darkness will claim the part of the universe it once illuminated. People have to light torches, use flashlights or lanterns to see their way through dark passages. The space around them is lighted, but all around them darkness holds sway. Cloak should be far more powerful than Dagger and yet, she has been able to absorb Cloak's powers - albeit with Tyrone's help in one instance. Cloak has not yet been written to his fullest potential and really, has not been fully developed as a complete character IMO.

- Cloak and Dagger SHOULD be mutants. The story written by Ed Hannigan is the best explanation for why Tyrone and Tandy have their powers. To simply say their powers are a result of the experimental drug's interaction with something in their DNA is weak and leaves too many holes. Tyrone and Tandy were much like the mutants Mandrill and Nekra whose powers didn't manifest until they came into close proximity to one another. This is what happened with Ty and Tandy in Hannigan's version.

According to Hannigan, Ty and Tandy were latent mutants whose powers might never have manifested if the two had never encountered each other. They did encounter each other however and when they were threatened at the docks by the men who who would take them to Ellis Island, their mutant powers should have manifested then and there. The demon D'Spayre suppressed that manifestation, choosing instead to make the teens believe their powers were the result of the experimental drug. Only when this happened, did D'Spayre allow their powers to manifest, but even then he played a cruel trick on them. Tandy was supposed to have the powers of darkness, while Tyrone was supposed to have the powers of light.

Ed Hannigan's story makes infinitely more sense than does any other explanation given for Cloak and Dagger's powers.

So to answer your question 4Sake, I was pleased overall with the one-shot and I hope Marvel gives Cloak and Dagger another limited series in the near future.

And Polaris (who has basically the same power as his, but with a few differences..), Also Thanks for kind words, and I read all of Yaw, Daoud posts I find at cbr & most of Magneto X....

Oh yeah. I had completely forgotten about Polaris. Thanks again, 4Sake.

Yeah I mostly agree with most this.. I thought #1 was petty good & 2 expect for the confusing ending.

Questions about DW#2 which came to mind after I read it were:

- How was the Wakandan war party (T'Challa, Shuri, and a significant force of Dora Milaje) able to penetrate "Utopia" air space, land and deploy without being detected by the X-Men?

- For how long did the Desturi exist within Wakanda as a potential threat before Wakandan Intelligence - once said to be superior to the CIA and the Mossad - encountered "rumors" of its existence? According to T'Challa, Wakandan Intelligence had been "tracking rumors" of the Desturi for just over one year...just over one year? This is Wakandan Intelligence who - for those of us who've already read Flags Of Our Fathers #1 - have learned what they are capable of in terms of intelligence gathering sophistication. This is Wakanda who had plans in place for combatting an invasion by Galactus. How did the Desturi - a domestic threat - go undetected by Wakandan Intelligence until it was too late to stop them?

- Once Wakandan Intelligence discovered the existence of the Desturi, it lacked the ability to identify key members of the group even while knowing those members had infiltrated the government, the military, the press..."everywhere"? A question vexing to me in particular; T'Challa had not a clue Doom was orchstrating this entire attack until his covert methods became very overt in an attack by Doom on T'Challa which nearly cost the Black Panther his life? Just what in hell is going on here?

In trying to decipher the ending of DW#2, I get the idea that Doom had already fooled Bast with his hypocrisy and despicable deceit, dressed, procured the Vibranium, and simply wanted to hang around until T'Challa arrived so that he could twist the knife as it were...subjecting T'Challa to a torturous choice - either give him the key to the last lock or watch him blow Ororo's head off. It was just another example of Doom being the bastard he is and that Bast through her "judgement", allowed him to continue to be.

There are many more questions starting with DW#1 through to DW#3 I hope are answered by the conclusion of the story.

Now if any of you X-Men would like to assist let me kno & we'll come pick up & etc.. Also as person who reads the X-Men have a prob. with only 3 of her friends came  because majority of X-Men on the island hate living on it & would gladly leave it for even an hour even if meant going to fight a war...

Here, I think we get a sense of the order of Cyclops' priorities. T'Challa allowed his wife and his mother to suffer torment and arrest at the hands of the Desturi because as the former Black Panther put it: "I had to choose between my wife's life and the future of my entire country...I chose my country." Cyclops is recognized - recognized by the X-Men at any rate - as the leader of mutant kind; and that reminds me - if I may digress for a moment. What happened to Storm being "the most important mutant on Earth" due to her marriage to T'Challa (a homosapien, not homosuperior, and King of one of the world's wealthiest, mightiest, most influential nations) as stated by Prof X on the eve of the WEDDING OF THE CENTURY? Once again, we see the wisdom of Ture. The WEDDING story was written by Hudlin. Thus, the story is likely considered a "mistake" abomination is more like it... by those denizens of "the bizarro world of comicbook fans" who have been persistent and relentless in their objections to everything Hudlin has done and will ever do in the comicbook industry.

Back to the point, as the "leader" of mutantkind, Cyclops likely felt he could not commit any of his people to Storm's rescue as mutantkind is on the verge of extinction and fighting an enemy determined to wipe them out. It would make more sense however, for Cyclops to have sent a few of his people to free one of Earth's mightiest mutants so that she could take part in their war of survival. I don't read anything connected to Marvel's X-franchise, but I don't doubt that Storm is "in there pitching". X-writers seem all too willing to ignore Storm's marriage to the Black Panther and her regal duties as Queen of Wakanda. Of course as we now know, Cyclops left the door open for Storm's closest friends in the X-Men (Wolverine, Colossus, and the great Nightcrawler) to assist in her rescue.

Also a few things just came as unnecessary to me like S'yan getting shot & him may or may not being dead because killing/making it look like he may die (again) & killing T'Challa & Shuri main/current father-figure when there father T'Chaka is dead & when T'Challa bio. mother is dead.. It come of as unnecessary & annoying.. It like how many parents do these ppl need to lose.. It doesn't better the story or there character development.. I felt the same way about Zuri death.. If you just need to bring a supporting cast member or royal out of limbo just to be kill then just used one : that a who death still can some effect the the main character/s & who story petty much run it course. Like Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru, Omoro & etc..

I am in total agreement with you here, 4Sake. Well said!

I'd didn't have a prob. with W'Kabi or M'Baku deaths because the both came off as a means to a ends.. W'Kabi had to die or either early retirement for Shuri to became both the T'Challa #2/#3 &to be the main Regent of the big W..

M'Baku was a black male in a Gorilla/Ape outfit.. yeah not the most well thought off concept.. Plus his Death open of a few possible plots such as Ce'Athauna/QDJ coming back, leading the Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult & geting powers. She bringing lasting peace to Wakanda or atleast to the Panther tribe & to Jabari tribe.. Also you could build up a rivalry & friendship between her & Shuri similar to that to BP/Iron Man or better a Gaara/Naruto like friendship & rivalry..

I agree here as well. It's sort of sad to see W'Kabi go. Aside from Zuri, W'Kabi was the last of what seemed to be T'Challa's most intimate and trusted advisors. Taku is dead isn't he? Zatana was killed very early in Panther's Rage. At the moment, T'Challa's most trusted and closest advisors appear the be the beautiful women in his life; Ramonda, Ororo, Shuri, and Aneka.

Which leads me to my next point.. Another prob. I have with a story like DoomWar & or BP SI is that taking over/ attacking Panther Cult doesn't it = taking over Wakanda because there are 17 other tribes/Cults in Wakanda.. Taking over 1 tribe even with it being the best/strongest doesn't mean taking the whole nation..

So nice nod to what the White Gorilla Cult, N'Jadaka tribe, Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult, mountain tribe & etc are doing when ppl attack Panther Cult would be nice.. (just a small panel of them killing/fighting some skrulls or Desturi when they show up at there house saying we here to take over)...

Very good point. I like the idea of Wakanda putting aside their religious/cult differences/disagreements when the whole of Wakanda is attacked and afterall, the Black Panther cult is the dominant and ruling cult of Wakanda. I think seeing the other cults in action would make for a "fuller" story.

Also so far I'm disappointed with the lack of Namor (but more than likely that not JM fault), the lack of Ka-Zar (& Shanna) because they have an alliance with T & O saying if you attack one you attack the other..

This probably goes to trying to keep the story from developing too many branches and becoming bogged down by complexities. I would think however, that Namor would be eager to learn why Doom ostensibly framed him, seeming to make it appear that he was responsible for the near-fatal attack on the Black Panther.

Also I was disappointed the way the loyalist vs non -loyalist to the house of Bashenga/TīChaka/T'Challa battle ended. It seemed kind of rushed.. I wish something cool happen like T'Challa,, Ororo, Shuri, S'yan & Queen Mom were riding on top  of a Prowler or in a N'Yami class battle cruiser given both (with T & O on prowler & S, S & QM in the cruiser) with T'Challa Ororo & Shuri give a speech to sway the ppl to stop the fighting and saying something to the effect of there will be changes here & etc but 1st we must take action against Doom.. long live Wakanda

Now that would have been outstanding!

<<You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? >>

Yeah; when Kingpin found out who DD really was--no holds bar dismembering of his life

I see. Obviously, these DD developments happened after I decided to drop the title along with Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America ... in short, all of Marvel Comics' signature titles. I haven't purchased a Spider-Man title of any sort for more than a decade now; I don't miss the character or his stories at all.

Once, I was a fan of every title I've mentioned. John Buscema pencilled many of the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and Thor titles I purchased. John's brother Sal pencilled Captain America, I think he holds a record for consecutive issues of the title that he pencilled. I've always been more about the art than the writing. I really enjoyed DD when it was both written and pencilled by Frank Miller, inked by Klaus Janson. I stayed with the title during the period JR, Jr. took over the pencilling, but dropped the title shortly thereafter, returning to it briefly when Joe Quesada was pencilling the book. I saw DD put through some changes during that time to be sure, but never to the extent to what T'Challa and Storm have been subjected to in DW. But I defer to your more complete knowledge here.

Like most Marvel Comics fans, I once considered X-Men to be the best thing going. I'd always loved the concept. Jack "King" Kirby was responsible for many, if not most, of Marvel's greatest concepts. The X-Men, the Inhumans, the Eternals, the Fantastic Four...our own Black Panther were all Kirby and to hear him tell it, Stan Lee. The Claremont/Byrne run on the X-Men was when I really got heavily into the title and yet, even then, I was annoyed that the X-Men never seemed to win any battle outright or without suffering some significant loss in the course of gaining a victory: ex. Banshee nearly burning out his power in the battle against Moses Magnum in Japan.

I still hope T'Challa delivers one hellacious beating to Doom which results in Doom being humiliated and permanently maimed. It's the price he must pay for being the only invader to ever succeed in conquering Great Wakanda.

Black Panther / Re: CBR's Greatest Black Panther Stories Ever Told
« on: May 02, 2010, 02:27:29 pm »
Brian Cronin is running a "Greatest Black Panther Stories Ever Told"  poll on his blog Located Here

Thus far I'm thinking of putting The Client, Priest's Storm/T'Challa arc, Deadliest of the Species, the New Orleans arc, Secret Invasion, and T'Challa's first Fantastic 4 debut.

"Panther's Rage" is certainly a worthy candidate. Black Panther:"Cry The Accursed Country" is another.

Humilate Doom like that and the "next" Doom writer will reveal (read recont) this Doom was never the real Doom.  And some writers may go so far as to have Doom get his real revenge and vaporize Wakanda or worse.  And since there is no BP ongoing any more, there is no one protecting BP's legacy.

Here's the thing;  this is Marvel--Villains are supposed to win the early rounds.

Doom once attempted to skip out on a debt he owed Luke Cage for services rendered; Cage - acting as his own collection agency - broke into FF headquarters, procured intercontinental transportation, traveled to Latveria to beard the "great and mighty" Doom in his own den. Cage found Doom arrogant as usual and recalitrant as well. Indignant, Cage set upon Doom whereupon he proceeded to pummel the miscreant in the chest region. Doom's vaunted armor cracked, actually gave way under Cage's pounding. The damage to Doom's armor left the villain stunned and defenseless and thus, vulnerable to an attack by a third party having a grievance to settle with Doom. Cage defeated this new player, saving Doom's bacon. Afterward, Doom actually tried to secure the services of Cage as his bodyguard; Cage declined. Naturally, those "Doombutts" in the larger comicbook-reading demographic were nettled and some went so far as to suggest the Doom cage confronted wasn't actually Doom at all, but a Doombot instead. To my knowledge, the story of Doom's beatdown at the hands of Cage in his own Latverian crib has not been retconned. Doom's humiliation at the fists of Luke Cage has stood as canon for years. Of course, this story has been largely ignored by the larger comicbook-reading demographic.

Traveling back to the U.S. after tracking a drug cartel to France, an exhausted Cloak paused on a Latverian mountain; his passengers (Dagger and her companion Bill Clayton) emerged from the folds of Cloak's Cape Of Darkness. Doom happened to be working on a diabolical weapon - using intense light as its power source - at the exact moment Dagger stepped out of the Dark Dimension. Attracted to and fascinated by this light, Dagger persuaded a wary Cloak to investigate. As written, the Cloak character (always eager to please Dagger  ::)) relented and the trio of travlers found themselves the guests of Doom. Soon, they discovered how Doom planned to use the project he'd been working on and decided to stop him. Ultimately, it was the young Cloak who confronted Doom in the castle chamber housing this weapon of mass destruction, and who bravely enveloped Doom in his great cape knowing Doom would unleash his armor's weapons to gain freedom from the Dark Dimension. As Doom prepared to do just that, Cloak pivoted and opened his cape at the exact moment Doom opened fire. Instead of finding a target in the Dark Dimension however, Doom's weapons destroyed his nearly-completed weapon. Cloak had single-handedly defeated Dr. Doom. Of course, the larger comicbook-reading demographic dismissed this story as "having never happened" or that Cloak likely defeated a Doombot, not the real deal.

Recently, Dr. Doom and Dr. Voodoo went toe to toe. I would guess we all know how that worked out for Doom.

You're right, Kip; villains are supposed to win the early rounds. It's the "how" of the winning that some of us take issue with in the case of DW. Had/has the Kingpin ever dominated his battles with Daredevil as completely as Doom has in his battle against the Panther? Granted, the title of this tale is DOOMWAR. Daredevil never confronted the Kingpin in a series called "KINGPINWAR". Daredevil was never set up as the "maybe-antagonist" in his battles with the Kingpin as the Panther, Storm and Shuri have been in their battle against Doom - the only successful invader and conqueror of Wakanda. As far as the larger comicbook-reading demographic was concerned, the battle lines were clearly defined when it was Kingpin vs DD. In the case of DW however, more than a few members of that demographic see Doom as a noble figure and relish the fact that T'Challa and Wakanda are finally "getting what they deserve". It's not enough that yet another Black Panther title has been cancelled, they want T'Challa eradicated. As you alluded to and once again Kip, your observation buttresses what I've been saying about "writers choice/reader's preference". The "next Doom writer" can always satisfy the "reader's preference" in this regard.

However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

I would expect many denizens of the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - especially those who have an open hostility for the Black Panther and Wakanda - to root for Doom. That Maberry has written a T'Challa (a character we all know to be a master strategist and brilliant warrior possessed of genius-level intellect) to be caught so completely off guard...that Maberry has written a Storm so powerless that at one point, she seemed to be cowering before Doom cradling the Queen Mother of Wakanda in a protective embrace...that Maberry has written a proud warrior king - who didn't need the Avenger's help to knock the shiznit out of Mephisto and rip the heart from his chest - running to the X-Men of all people for help... these developments were entirely unexpected and as evidenced, largely unappreciated by many Storm/T'Challa/Wakanda fans. As Ture so eloquently put it, this hasn't been a pitched battle between equals but something so much to the contrary it almost defies description. This is Wakanda, a highly advanced warrior nation that had remained unconquered for over a 1000 years. To see Doom so easily accomplish what even the Skrulls could not all the while showing utter contempt for T'Challa, Storm and the Wakandans - some of those Wakandans being traitorous fools who addressed this "outworlder" as "my lord" - is very, very hard to stomach. Maberry is giving every Wakanda-hating fanboy/girl exactly what they want. Doom has become the champion of this story.

I'm with you supreme, as I usually am. However, this stunning victory I expect Shuri and her allies to enjoy over Doom at the climax/conclusion of this story needs to be such that it has significant, long-lasting effect that will reverberate through the whole of the MU. Doom surely won't lose his life, but as a Panther/Storm/Wakanda fan I won't be satisfied unless Doom loses a limb (an arm or a leg) or at the very least one of his eyes. T'Challa should drag Doom through every room of his Latverian castle and bash his face against the walls and floors of every room of that castle, turn his already ruined face to bloody paste. And after Doom's humiliation, T'Challa, Storm and Shuri should have a very long talk with Bast.

Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.

Now sinjection's systems are fully operational; locked and loaded. It's very good to see you both, both of you keeping the faith not only with our T'Challa and our Ororo but in the comicbook entertainment medium overall. The thorny issues crop up now and again regarding the characterization of not only the principals of the BLACK PANTHER (T'Challa and Ororo) but indeed, with most if not all black characters/characters of color in the industry and what Vic so fittingly dubbed "the bizarro world of comicbook fans." It's through your contributions (solid, factual information and opinions shared with intelligence and good humor) that we HEF members are all reconnected to the true intent of comicbooks...escapist entertainment.

Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.

To briefly address in this post the many fine points you made in your comments regarding DW supreme, I'll say that I've been both entertained and tortured by this story. I'll expound in the next post. Seven and 4Sake, you honor me with your comments. I can only hope that what I tried to convey about the often neglectful and/or shoddy way black characters are regarded both by creators and consumers is clear enough. I do ramble on and on. Be sure to read comments posted by Daoud and Magneto X if you can. There might even be a few surviving comments posted by Yaw to be found. Right now, Jenn, Vic, 4Sake, Umbra, RolandJP, Shadey are putting on a masterful display. Their posts are carrying on what I tried to do and then some.


Great story telling would have the conversation between the Panther spirit and Doom go a little like this: "You have assaulted my followers, even corrupted some of my children. For this you have earned the enmity of Bast. In this game you are playing know that the consequences will be most dire for you. Know you are playing a master, a master who you cannot conquer. A master who is betroved to one who will stop at nothing short of your death."

Instead we get this....

...a Panther god ready to lick Doom's naked ass!

 ;D YES!!!  Say it plain, Ture!   :D

Having seen my fair share (and then some), of the anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin's Black Panther posts - some of them from our own Yoda - I had no trouble discerning your fine post for exactly what it was. You're right, Ture. This is not simply and solely a black/white racial issue. "Those arguments were constructed to fail and self destruct". As many times as I have experienced this very thing, I've no doubt but that you are correct. On the other hand, there's bluezulu saying something I have posted myself more than once: "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book". Realistically, a black man writing a black book is not the panacea some of us might like to think. Still, bluezulu expresses a frustration I suspect most of us are able to relate to on some level.

For instance, in my view, too many white Marvel Comics fans having too little knowledge of the Black Panther and Wakanda will always dismiss the character as a perennial B-list product. What they know of Wakanda is that it's a xenophobic, racist nation. And yet, a white man - Horatio Walters a.k.a. Venomm - came to Wakanda as an invader, a lieutenant to Killmonger. After befriending Taku, Walters had a change of heart and to my knowledge, never left Wakanda but remained there evidently living there as a Wakandan citizen. I do remember seeing Venomm leading a column of Wakandan troops marching against the Jabari tribe during Priest's run. Priest, a black writer, chose to show Venomm, a white character, in what appeared to be a position of prominence and command over what many white fans might say were racist Wakandan troops.

Like bluezulu, I have "fallen away" from purchasing the traditionally strong Marvel Comics titles. The characters no longer seem to appeal to me as much as they once did. The culture of the books have changed as well and not always to my liking. In recent months, I'd been purchasing Doctor Voodoo which as we all know has been cancelled. I purchased Black Panther, now cancelled. I picked up the Cloak and Dagger one-shot; Cloak is my favorite character. Presently, I'm buying Flags Of Our Fathers and DOOMWAR. That's it. I mention this because I had no idea that the Wakandan X-Man Nezhno was bi-racial until recently.

Apparently, Kyle Yost, a white writer, chose to create (or to re-create), Nezhno as a bi-racial character. I remember a CBR discussion started by the member Magneto X. He was questioning why it was the Wakandan mutant Nezhno was rendered in one illustration having brown eyes, but in another identical illustration having blue eyes. As I recall, the issue of Nezhno's bi-racial heritage was not once mentioned in that exchange and I'm assuming Nezhno's racial heritage wasn't mentioned because at the time of that exchange, Nezhno may not yet have been bi-racial.

If that is the case and Nezhno's bi-racial heritage is a recent development I have to ponder the question why. I had been a proponent of Nezhno leaving the X-Men and returning with Storm to Wakanda. Through bits of information here and there, I've learned that Nezhno did in fact return to Wakanda and wanted very much to fit in. The story as written by Kyle Yost, had Nezhno being rejected by every Wakandan including his own mother. Nezhno saves the life of his brother - whom I'm assuming he didn't know he had until that very moment - and was recognized by his mother who rejected Nezhno on the spot. How could it be that this xenophobic, racist Wakandan woman could put aside those attitudes long enough to allow herself to become inseminated by a Russian, an "outworlder"? Further, how could this Wakandan woman be so cold and heartless to reject the son she carried to term and gave birth to? Why didn't she simply abort Nezhno if she hated him so? How could she love the Russian father, but hate her Russian/Wakandan son?

Because Kyle Yost wanted it that way. He wanted to write a story about how a willing Nezhno returned to Wakanda hoping to find acceptance and a home there, but instead was rejected even by his own mother. So Nezhno, having experienced bitter rejection and hostility from the Wakandans began to yearn for the X-Men and the life he shared with them. This is the sort of situational writing, the creation of circumstances, I am trying to call attention to when I mention white writer's choice/white reader's preference. The way I see it, the white writer chose to write Nezhno's story so that it could not possibly conclude any other way except that to be expected and possibly preferred by the predominant X-Fan readership, many of whom probably couldn't care less if Nezhno ever appeared in another X-book just so long as the character wasn't ever accepted in Wakanda as a Wakandan.

By the way, I'd always believed it was the female mutant who carried and passed on the mutant gene. In Nezhno's case, it appears he received his mutant gene from his Russian father. Is this so?


As always, it's good to be back.

And right off the bat, I've have the pleasure of reading and re-reading your fine comments, attempting to gather as many pearls of wisdom to be found there...certain to be enriched in my personal opinions through the perspective you bring to the given topic. And there's the ever-steady, ever-sensible Daoud as well. I see you there, Daoud.

Vic, your evaluation of Maberry's run being a product of "writing to his strengths" rather than a deliberate intent on his part to "castrate" the characters hit squarely on the nail head IMO and yet, I am completely empathetic with those who might suspect otherwise. Afterall, our heroes were so off-balance and completely fooled by Doom and "the Broker" that Shuri was convinced Namor was responsible for the near-fatal attack on T'Challa, a mistake that certainly would have cost Shuri her life if not for the timely intervention of Reed Richards. After Reed saved the day, we Panther/Storm fans had to sit through Richards explaining to our heroes and Namor how they had both "been played." Reed then said he could prove conclusively that Namor was not attacked on his island. Shuri asked how this could be possible as N'iix had run the video files through Wakanda's "most sophisticated equipment." Reed's reply: "No offense to you, Princess, or to you, Professor N'iix, but I daresay I have better equipment." When N'iix begins to take issue..."Wakandan technology is second to...", Ben and Johnny quickly pipe up and basically tell N'iix that Reed ain't braggin'. Reed has a "brain the size of a planet."  More brain power than exists in all Wakanda I would suspect. Ouch.

Upon the heels of Reed's flat-out statement that his equipment was "better" than that of the Wakandas, Ben and Johnny took it upon themselves to very gently (Johnny Storm prefaced his statement with "Hate to say it, friend..."), school Wakanda's Chief Of Security about the ease with which highly-skilled superhero types could circumvent/outwit even the mightiest of armies after Zakar had stated how Wakanda's vibranium was under it's powerful military's protection. By now, we know that it's likely both Shuri and T'Challa were aware of the dire straits Wakanda was in, but that didn't stop Ben from reminding Zakar that he couldn't put his trust in the loyalty of his army asking Zakar the question: "Haven't you been watchin' your own TV news? Wakanda's a boilin' pot on a high flame." Ouch, two times.

Lastly, Doom has had T'Challa's number from the get-go in this whole affair. It would seem that "mano e mano", Doom has proved himself to be the better "mano". T'Challa and Shuri have had to scramble around trying to muster up as much help as possible to do something that T'Challa couldn't seem to do by himself, defeat Doom. So, I agree with you, Vic. I wouldn't say Maberry has castrated T'Challa, Storm, Wakanda...even Bast, but it does appear that at times, Maberry is holding the snipping scissors in one hand and the requisite genitalia of our not-yet-castrated heroes in the other. Still, I'm optimistic about T'Challa's newfound powers and technological advances while still anticipating that in the end, T'Challa will put a whuppin' on Doom the MU won't ever forget.

And as you say Vic, there is more than one kind of A-List. It is a popularity - a universal recognition transcending the comicbook medium - enjoyed by certain comicbook characters.  Unfortunately, this popularity has yet to manifest itself in the "bizarro world of comic book fans" - and I quite agree with your characterization - where Blade and the Black Panther are concerned. Black Panther, a splendid character and beloved by his niche audience, continues to languish because the majority demographic of that "bizarro world" is able to vote for their favorite characters with their buck$. And for a few - thankfully it would seem, a very few - denizens of that "bizarro world of comic book fans", they would sooner cast their vote for someone like the Irredeemable Ant-Man, than for a character who rules a xenophobic, "racist" African nation, who also happens to share his name with that of the Black Panther Party and who although they may consider him to be a cool character, they cannot identify with.

After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Ture, your post is simply brilliant. While a member of the CBR, I ruffled more than a few feathers discussing what I defined as "white writer's choice" and "white reader's preference". Your strong observations go straight to the very heart of the concept I tried to convey back then.

During such exchanges, it was clear from the responses I received that the T'Challa/Storm/Wakanda portrayed in DOOMWAR was considered by those fans as being the more realistic, more entertaining. Hudlin's T'Challa was "arrogant" and "too perfect". Storm was a "broodmare" and little more than T'Challa's "doormat" or "stepping stone" to A-List status. Wakanda was racist, xenophobic and boring. Today, some of those fans are celebrating Doom's brilliance in how he has so completely "handed T'Challa his butt. They are making cases for Doom being a noble anti-hero and actually rooting for Doom to emerge the victor from this battle. Conversely, I've no doubt that if those same members were discussing Bishop and his battle against Cable and Hope, Bishop would be reviled as the villian.

Is the Doom of DOOMWAR the same Doom who battled Doctor Voodoo? I wonder how Doom's DOOMWAR fans might answer this question. I happen to think Maberry is writing a good story, a very entertaining story. I understand the frustration of Black Panther fans and especially those Storm fans with how the story is going and how those characters have been depicted. I do believe that through all that has happened, T'Challa has maintained a nobility that has been untouched by Doom's despicable onslaught. Shuri has emerged as a strong character in my opinion. Storm has not been written in character and that needs to be corrected asap.

The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.

And how many times was it I mentioned the ways of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" and white writers writing stories designed primarily to entertain a predominantly white male audience? Arisen from oblivion, this is sinjection. This is what woke me from eternal hibernation; my CBR epitaph:

Brian Cronin
10-28-2009, 10:02 AM
sinjection was interesting in the sense that he often had fairly reasonable complaints, and I thought he often got reactions that did not fit his original positions due to the over-sensitivity when it comes to race.

That said, he would then go way past the original reasonable complaint and just act like a jerk.


One CBR member thought it would be a good thing to re-post what he called "sinjection's greatest hits". Doing so would crash their forum as EVERYTHING I posted over there WAS a hit, which often hit them where it hurt them most. And so now bluezulu says, "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book." I was saying this same thing - among others - during my time @ the CBR. Cronin is a good person, a fair-minded fellow, who understood that it was often the over-sensitivity of many members of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" to racial issues in comicbooks that drove their idiotic kneejerk reactions which in turn caused them to suffer "sinjection correction".

I've no doubt that many white readers are onboard DOOMWAR because they perceive it as a Dr. Doom story, not a Black Panther story and thus far, T'Challa is getting his black behind bruised. So good to see the cream of the HEF crop representing at the CBR now, which is all I ever wanted. Since my resurrection, I've been "lurking" there and am very pleased with what I've seen. Jenn is there. Oh lordy  ;)

I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.

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