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Messages - sinjection

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976
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 29, 2006, 03:21:56 am »
I have no problem saying Hudlin's Panther is better than Kirby's solo run or Gillis's miniseries, but it can't hold a candle to McGregor, Priest, or the Lee/Kirby origin issues, IMO.

- Jer

Jer, we're all entitled to our opinions.

I have read the opinions of all the posters participating in this particular forum and I respect and have learned from those opinions, even those opinions that have been at variance with my own.

Now having said that, in my always humble opinion, not only could Hudlin's version of King T'Challa, the Black Panther of Wakanda "hold a candle" to the versions of the character as presented by McGregor, Priest and Lee/Kirby - excellent and exemplary creators all - Reginald Hudlin's version of the Black Panther outshines them all. Outshines them all! As for the Priest version of the Panther, Hudlin's version incinerates it and reduces it to nothing more than a mere afterthought.

Reginald Hudlin has put the "Mighty" in T'Challa, in Ororo, in Wakanda and in the Black Panther.

Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS the Black Panther.

'nuff said.

977
Black Panther / Re: World Tour Arc
« on: July 28, 2006, 01:27:41 pm »
Btw, Jean & Logan is dubbed "Jelo" by its fans.

Then consider me a fan of the "JeLo".

 Is it LoCal JeLo?

We don't want any love triangle between Logan, Jean and Callisto to crop up do we?

978
Black Panther / Re: World Tour Arc
« on: July 28, 2006, 01:25:40 pm »
Agreed.  Never liked Cyclops that much and his only reason for being there is because he was given the status of Field Leader by Professor X....in contrast, Storm earned it and even took it in a new direction during her XTreme XMen run and directly challenged Prof X and his new methodology.  

And yes Cyclops did allow Psylocke and Emma Frost to come on to him and he could have rebuffed both.  In fact, he didn't wait more than 6 months before he was sexing or dating another female during the original UXM #137-138 climax to the Dark Phoenix story.  He started dating a Blonde female around issue # 147...her name was Lee.  

Back on topic....Storm fought Dr. Doom way back in UXM #145-147 and he entombed her in some type of statue and she became enraged and almost caused an unstoppable & destructive weather blitz.  A re-match is overdue.

Summers is weak. Both Scott and Alex. They both are loved by fine women. They both have messed over those fine women while chasing the skirts of "Lucy-come-latelys". It appears that Polaris has given Havok the old heave ho and once she returns, Phoenix should do the exact same thing to Cyclops.

Really looking forward to the Honeymoon Tour. Doom is a true giant among Marvel Comics miscreants. He will be a stern test for the fledgling Wakandan Royal tandem. Even if they should lose, they're both so attractive that they'll look good in the losing  :D

979
Black Panther / Re: World Tour Arc
« on: July 28, 2006, 12:44:34 pm »
Agreed.  Wolverine even romanced Jean in the movie adaptation XIII (or at least was the love interest).  Think they would be more compatible as she is his true love or is it Yoriko (the Asian woman from UXM 171 & 172).

Scott has had multiple opportunities to be with and love Jean in the way a man who truly loves a woman should do.

Instead, Scott was telepathically seduced by Psylocke, even allowing himself to be mesmerized by that woman while in the presence of Jean. You all probably recall the X-Men issue in which that occurred. It was the same issue in which Gambit, meaning to hit Bishop with a pie that Rogue had baked, threw it at him and missed. Instead of hitting Bishop, Gambit succeeded in hitting Rogue smack in the face.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Emma Frost telepathically seduce and engage in what could only be described as "mind sex" with Scott while Jean was still living? If Scott allowed himself to be seduced in that manner, he has lost all of my respect and support. When Jean Grey is resurrected, she should give Logan the opportunity to give her everything she's missed with Scott Summers.

Count me as among the first on the "Lo-J" bandwagon. "Lo-J" It reads like the "bizarro" version of J-Lo doesn't it?

980
Black Panther / Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« on: July 28, 2006, 12:25:16 pm »
At the risk of sounding like a mutual admiration society supreme, I have to say that I've enjoyed every post of yours that I've read. There's always something "illuminating" about them.

With respect to "Contest Of Champions" I: Wolverine vs Black Panther, it's entirely possible that during their fight, T'Challa might have mentally assessed Wolverine's fighting prowess as being fierce, but to the best of my recollection, it wasn't as if the Panther was about to faint dead away. Although no one has ever written the Panther with the predatory confidence and elegance that Mr. Hudlin has imparted to the character, the T'Challa of "Contest Of Champions" I wasn't exactly a lightweight "pussycat". In fact after the fight, Wolverine made the comment that he was winning. Not impressed and not overly-concerned about Wolverine's boast, T'Challa simply reminded Loopy Logan that their fight was not yet over. T'Challa let Wolverine know then and there that he was far from beaten. Loopy Logan then responded with something like, "I had you licked six ways to Sunday". It was at that point that Ben Grimm said, "Runt, yours is one butt I'd like to boot from here to Boise". How am I doing Damon?

I hope there would be copies of the "Contest Of Champions" out there somewhere supreme. If so, I hope you are fortunate enough to find it and pick it up. The books feature the excellent early work of a still-developing John Romita, Jr. He was good then. Of course as we all know, he's much better now. And interestingly enough given the recent happy event in Wakanda, there is a panel in the first issue of the series showing the following characters standing near one another and chatting: Falcon, Cage, Brother Voodoo (I believe), another black character called "Talisman" was also featured if I'm not mistaken. He was a mystic sort of character who traveled in and made use of the "Dreamtime". However, also in this panel was the future King and Queen of Wakanda - T'Challa and Ororo. They were standing near one another and might have even been standing next to one another.

So you see discontented X-Fanatics and RoLo folks, the union of T'Challa and Ororo was something that was inevitable and meant to happen. Like it or not  :)

981
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 28, 2006, 09:45:09 am »
Have to say that after reading some of Priest's experiences at Marvel and DC as the first Black Editor/Writer that he has earned my respect....despite not liking his last year of writing BP during his tenure....he had the balls to get me interested and to do it his way...understand that the Americanization of BP was due to poor sales and he wanted to save the book.  Also, he could not get Storm on for more than three issues due to conflicts with the Editors of X-Men.

Back on topic, believe that Hudlin is building on BP from his own view and as most writers do he is bringing in elements that push his storyline along.  He has great ideas and execution and has not written a bad issue yet.  BP is the most unique title at Marvel IMO.

You're right Stanley. I respect every comic book professional out there. It isn't easy to do what they do and as it is with any public entertainer, it takes a measure of courage to put your work out there for thousands of consumers to judge. In my always humble opinion, Christopher Priest was (and is) an excellent writer. I disliked some of the things he did while on the Black Panther series and yes...it rankles me when some people claim that Priest's version of the Black Panther is the definitive Black Panther when already (and once again, in my always humble opinion), Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther is  head and shoulders above any and all versions of the Black Panther that has existed previously.

Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS the Black Panther.

982
Black Panther / Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« on: July 28, 2006, 09:30:08 am »
I heard that Wolverine whooped off on BP during that CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS thing,and I heard that Cap decisively won their encounter,not a narrow victory.But if what you say is true,and prior to REGINALD's run BP was 0-1-1 with throwdowns against CAP,then his overall record is 1-1-1...similar to the SUPER PATRIOT/US AGENT and right now,that CROSSBONES dude in Brubaker's Cap is 1-0 against Cap (yeah,Cap was going through the "mental time travel" extenuating circumstance,but still...)

Interesting how our fanbratti can accept CAP losing to CROSSBONES without much of a squawk at all, won't say a word when the ANTI-CAP is handing Cap his hat (remember PRIEST'S CAP&FALCON?),but will lose every particle of their minds if BP beats Cap.Somehow,I think that the louder shriek came when Cap lost to a Black man...but nope,that has NOTHING to do with racism.

Black Panther vs Wolverine - "Contest Of Champions":

It's been awhile since I'd read that series and - as Damon's correction of my erroneous recounting of events demonstrated - my memory of what actually happened is hazy. I must have lost the brain cells in which the information regarding these particular events were stored. However, I do think my memory serves in this instance. Wolverine did not "whoop" the Panther in their encounter. As with T'Challa's encounter with Cap in "Contest Of Champions II", it appeared that he wasn't going all out against Wolverine...who conversely, was going all out. Because of this disparity in comparative efforts between the two combatants, Wolverine did achieve somewhat of an advantage, but T'Challa had him in check. By no means was T'Challa ever over-matched by Wolverine. "The troll" went into something approaching his over-played, over-hyped "berserker rage" and unsheathed his adamantium claws...like an idiot. T'Challa asked, "Wolverine, this is only a game. Why do you unsheath your claws?" Loopy Logan then responded with something like, "This is a fight and any fight I'm in is a fight worth winning." I probably didn't quote Wolverine verbatim. I'm sure Damon could straighten me out on the details. But if Wolverine was in fact in his "berserker rage", T'Challa was handling him. Yes, T'Challa was on his back. However, he had Wolverine by both wrists and was preventing him from pressing any advantage he might have gained by losing his mind. Had the fight continued to its conclusion, there is no doubt in this Black Panther fan's mind that T'Challa would have literally wiped up the floor with Wolverine. In "Contest Of Champions II", T'Challa was stalking Captain America who was straining his every sense to maximum to try to detect his presence, which he did at the last possible time. Both Cap and T'Challa executed well enough in their "bout", but T'Challa's inner conflict between the part of his nature that is "predator" and the other part which recognized Captain America as a noble person and a personal friend proved to be the difference that allowed Cap to gain the eventual "narrow victory".

Now back to Wolverine for a minute. This character is either a perpetual retcon or one that is constantly evolving. Initially, Wolverine's "berserker rage" and "snikt" was what defined him. Cyclops illustrated this best when after the X-Men had been put through the ringer and badly shaken by Moira McTaggert's mutant son, "Proteus", Cyclops staged an impromptu battle to "test" the battle readiness of those X-Men affected, Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Storm. Cyclops was able to goad Wolverine into attacking him and was pleased when Wolverine reacted like the savage he was at that time. To paraphrase Cyclops, "That's it fella. No subtlety at all to his attack. Just a head-on charge." Wolverine was all adamantium claws, bad attitude and mayhem at that time. But after having journeyed to Japan and meeting Mariko, another side of Wolverine not seen before, began to surface. For some reason...in some way, this berserker "Weapon X" lunatic became something of a Samurai warrior, complete with methods of meditating for inner peace and refined fighting techniques....somethng he didn't have when he fought T'Challa in "Contest Of Champions I". The rough-talking, rough-housing malcontent Wolverine suddenly becomes Kitty Pryde's "sensei" and ushers her into her "Shadowcat" persona.

What-is-up-with-that?

As for the Panther's encounter with Cap during WWII, obviously that couldn't have been T'Challa. If it had been T'Challa, he would have to be as old as Cap (and the Patriot), are today. That would be pretty doggone old. The Black Panther who fought Cap to a draw in Priest's "First Contact" was and the Black Panther who won a decisive victory over Cap in Hudlin's version was T'Chaka, not T'Challa.

This being the case, it would be T'Chaka 1 - 0 - 1 against Cap while his son T'Challa would be 0 - 1 - 1.

983
Black Panther / Re: World Tour Arc
« on: July 28, 2006, 05:52:00 am »
Logan loves Callisto. It's a love match! I will begin beating the drums for a Logan/Callisto romance and wedding right now  :D

Do my eyes deceive me. The bile is raising, how dare you desercrate the name of RoLo with such a indespicable, insurrmountable, incoherent, illogical, ill-informed, and ignit claims. Ugh, I am speechless.

 :D

Now, now. Calm yourself. I meant no offense.

Truly, I have only the best interests of Logan and Callisto at heart when I suggest that they might actually find a measure of happiness with one another. Afterall, they have so much in common already.

Both Logan and Callisto are hairy, homicidal and homely. I'd be willing to bet hard-earned money that LoCal would produce a drop-dead gorgeous offspring that would put this "Kendall Munroe" to shame.

Just pretend my idea is like the hair on Wolverine's back. Give it a chance to grow and let's see what develops.

I'm just having a little fun with ya Toya  ;)

Digressing for just a moment from King T'Challa and his lovely bride, Queen Ororo....I'd like to say something about Logan and his love life. I believe that Scott Summers has insulted Jean Grey one too many times and that when she is resurrected, she and Logan should become a serious item. I wouldn't mind one little bit if someday soon, we could be seeing Luke Cage, Nightcrawler and T'Challa planning a bachelor party for Wolverine on the eve of his marriage to Jean Grey.

Don't kill me Toya.  Please don't kill me  :D

984
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 28, 2006, 05:36:21 am »
if priest is cool with Reggie, then you should be too.

What, I'm not entitled to my own opinion of the work...?

Quote
last but not least, BP is popular.  Isn't that what we've always wanted?  A well written Panther being beloved by the masses?

Last I saw, Hudlin's numbers were in the same range as Priest's issue for issue, excluding crossovers.  A little bit lower than Priest's, actually.  And I don't share your opinion that Hudlin's Panther is well written.

Quote
Again, thanx for your time... and who is to say that Doom and T'challa will be fighting EACH OTHER?
hmmmm?

The cover's a wee bit suggestive, wouldn't you say...?

And why wasn't Tork at the wedding? Any of you feel free to help a brotha out on this one if I happen to be mistaken, but didn't the "hallowed" Christopher Priest kill Tork?

No, Tork wasn't killed, though it looked that way for a while.

Quote
In addition, I don't remember Tork being close to T'Challa.

They worked together a few key times, and T'Challa had enough of an interest in him to help him fake his death and nudge Kasper along.

Quote
Until I see any indication to the contrary, I will simply conclude that the majority opinion from that quarter is prejudiced and bigoted where Mr. Hudlin is concerned.

What, 18 issues isn't enough source material to draw a meaningful judgment from?  What would be enough...?

- Jer

Ah. Tork wasn't killed. I see.

Well, in my always humble opinion, Tork should have been killed. I don't want to come off as overly-critical or bloodthirsty, but just as it was with Everett K. Ross, Tork always seemed to annoy me. I am one who believes that Ross, Tork and Kasper Cole were not conspicuous by their absences.

Hudlin is writing a new and better Black Panther. This Panther has no need for a bumbling, big-mouthed, bureaucratic buffoon, a dirty long-haired detective who looks as if he is hopelessly stuck in the 1960s hippy era; nor does this Black Panther have need of a Black Panther wannabe who isn't even Wakandan. Let Priest insert "White Tigers" into a religious cult of a people who probably have never seen a tiger before because the tiger itself is not indigenous to Africa. Let Priest insert a "White Wolf" into a book about the Black Panther when, like the tiger, the wolf is not an animal indigenous to Africa. For a book titled the Black Panther, it seems to me that Priest did his level best to introduce as much "white" into his run as he could. No, this isn't a racial or racist commentary. This is an observation I have made based on Priest's work.

Many of Hudlin's critics have displayed what has appeared to me as a negative attitude and opinion of Hudlin before and certainly shortly after the onset of his run on the project. Those people didn't have the benefit of 18 issues as a basis from which to draw their conclusions. They relied on their prejudices where Hudlin's writing ability is concerned. Now that Hudlin's Panther is in full swing, the prejudice evinced by many of his critics has become bigotry as they search for reasons to criticize any adjustment for the better that Mr. Hudlin has made to the Panther, based upon versions that some of them aren't particularly familiar with in the first place.

985
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 28, 2006, 05:08:52 am »
...sinjection, and just let me add something:

LONG LIFE TO HUDLIN'S BLACK PANTHER


I second that emotion.

Long Life to Hudlin's Black Panther.

Long Life to the union of King T'Challa and Queen Ororo.

Long Life to a QUALITY product Marvel Comics can be proud of.

986
Black Panther / Re: World Tour Arc
« on: July 27, 2006, 08:02:21 pm »
Dropping in quick to say...

Mm, change is in the air Panther fans. Us Storm folks are invading muahahhaha. Nah, Just playing.

Did anyone else notice that Scot Eaton is leaving? Or was it just me?  :-\

You "Storm folks" aren't "invading". You're merging  Afterall, now that the lovely Ororo is married to King T'Challa, you "Storm folks" are family  ;)

Ahhhhh, but the RoLo faithful....

Once those RoLos accept the fact any sensual roll of thunder in the distance they might hear in the future is not the sound of "Kendall Munroe" under construction but is more likely heralding the arrival of a brand-spanking new "T'Charming" Royal Wakandan bundle of Joy, they'll be just fine  :)

I hope Mr. Eaton is simply taking a well-deserved vacation following what I anticipate will be a masterstroke of artistic genius in Black Panther #18.

I ought to rip yer head off!!! Kendall shall rise in 616, the daughter of Ororo and Logan!!111. Rawr. :D *wipes froff from keyboard*

Seriously though, I still like RoLo and T'Ro. It's all good. Maybe I jumped the gun on the whole Scot Eaton depature thing. Hope I'm wrong, plus Garcia's pencils look awesome.


Maybe the RoLo faithful should change their dietary preferences. Try something low cal.  ;D "Low cal". That's it! LoCal

Logan loves Callisto. It's a love match! I will begin beating the drums for a Logan/Callisto romance and wedding right now  :D

Garcia does look very nice. I believe that the majority of talent out there today is probably the best that it has ever been. Reading a comic book today is often a veritable feast for the eyes.

987
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 27, 2006, 07:36:33 pm »
god i know it's hopeless and i am wasting my time. geez those 5 minutes i wasted making that post but i couldnt take it. im over at comic book resources reading those fanboys reaction to black panther #18 and i had to sound off (in really tame way magic wand and curtis would be proud). i could not take the double talk and hypocritical nature of those fanboys just flip and take out of context the work of reg. my post:

Help me understand.


Don't sweat those fanboys b-z.

Until I see any indication to the contrary, I will simply conclude that the majority opinion from that quarter is prejudiced and bigoted where Mr. Hudlin is concerned. I'm not saying the prejudice and bigotry is racial. I'm saying this. Now that Mr. Hudlin has given us a regal, confident, magnificent, independent and powerful black man who now dons the sacred Black Panther garb and rules mighty Wakanda, some of those fanboys long for the days of Priest's Panther even though some might admit to not being particularly interested in the Priest run on the book.

For too many fanboys and fangirls out there  :)  there is evidence of a prejudgement where Mr. Hudlin's ability to effectively write the Black Panther is concerned, and now that Mr. Hudlin has proven to be successful at writing the character, those fanboys and fangirls out there are unwilling to accept the positive changes and/or adjustments made to the character. They are bigoted against Hudlin's T'Challa as they long for the days of the T'Challa of the immortal Jack Kirby's "Solomon's Frogs" and  the T'Challa of the Avenger's writer Roy Thomas.

Those same fanboys and fangirls will rant on and on about how comics characters need to "get with the times". They criticize the costumes. They criticize the ideals and morals of today's characters as being rooted in the past. Still, they refuse to accept that the Panther has had a marvelous upgrade and is a Panther for today's comic fan. Those prejudiced and bigoted fanboys and fangirls want the Panther to remain rooted in the past.

I read one bit of sheer stupidity that claimed that Hudlin had turned Storm into a cold-blooded killer.

What about the Storm who stabbed Callisto through the heart? What about the Storm who stabbed Marrow throught he heart? What about the Storm that other white writers had traipsing through this or that "arena", scantily-clad and engaging in wild, lecherous, debauchery...and enjoying it? Those white writers had given us a Storm who appeared to enjoy a life of decadence and violence for violence sake....and might have even been willing to experiment with a little bi-sexual activity to boot.

Those fanboys and fangirls want the equivalent of a step-n-fetchit T'Challa and an Ororo that is nothing more than a sexual plaything who gets off on things like a more violent form of arena mud-wrestling with other female characters. Mr. Hudlin has elevated T'Challa and Ororo to regal status. They are the sparkling, powerful rulers of one of the mightiest nations on the face of Marvel Comic's planet Earth. They have the potential to become the most unique and exciting married couple the Marvel Universe and comics in general, has ever seen. They can be bigger than Superman and Lois. They can be bigger than Reed and Sue, Peter and Mary Jane. Unless Underdog marries Sweet Polly Purebred, I don't see another couple out there that can even begin to challenge them  :D



If you must read the comments of those fanboys and fangirls brother b-z, do as I do. Laugh at them  ;)

988
Black Panther / Re: Black Panther 18 The Wedding
« on: July 27, 2006, 07:14:04 pm »
BP #18 is the first issue of Hudlin's run that I've bought in over a year. I planned on just skimming it in the store, but the scene with Cap and IM looked interesting, and I liked the return of the Texeira outfit as T'Challa's formal duds, so I bought the issue so I could give it an honest read.

My impression after reading it is mixed. Most of the pieces of a good story are here, and there are a lot of nice moments (the Cap/IM scene, the Ororo/Xavier scene, etc.), but I think this issue is where karma finally came back and bit Hudlin in the ass over his reboot of the character. Why? Because every attempt at emotional resonance was undercut by the swiss cheesing of T'Challa's history.

The scene with Cap, Iron Man, and T'Challa would have been really powerful if they'd actually had the shared history we'd seen them have before the reboot. And, in fact, Hudlin writes the scene as if that history still exists -- but as we've seen in the pages of his own book, it doesn't exist anymore, so the scene makes no sense.

But for the moment, let's pretend that T'Challa still has all of his pre-Hudlin history, since that seemed to be the way Hudlin was approaching this issue. If that's the case, where's Everett K. Ross? I can't believe he'd miss the wedding. Where's Sgt. Tork? Where's Kasper Cole? And why on earth would Man-Ape be on the invitation list when he killed the time-displaced version of T'Challa and sparked a Wakandan civil war so recently? If any Jabari were going to be invited, wouldn't Queen Divine Justice be the obvious choice? And yet she's nowhere to be seen. Let's not forget Dr. Doom at the end, either. Before the reboot he and T'Challa were on cordial terms, but now he's acting like there's leftover animosity between them. Huh?

No -- sadly, Hudlin's reboot is in full effect here, and he just sidesteps it when he feels like tapping into the character's real history. That's nothing but a parlor trick -- lazy writing of the worst kind. Either the character's history was worth keeping or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. And yet, Hudlin still tries to -- and in the process he just confuses readers both new and old because he can't maintain consistency even within his own stories.

This certainly isn't the worst book on the shelves, but it's still got serious problems, and I think T'Challa deserves a lot better. It's a shame that an event as big as the character's wedding had to happen in the middle of this muddled mess -- and it's even more of a shame that there were elements of a good story here that were completely overshadowed by the side effects of Hudlin's hubris.

Needless to say, I won't be buying #19. :-\

- Jer

I could not have been happier that that gadfly Everett K. Ross was not at the wedding. Good riddance to bad rubbish is what I say.

And why wasn't Tork at the wedding? Any of you feel free to help a brotha out on this one if I happen to be mistaken, but didn't the "hallowed" Christopher Priest kill Tork? Now, unless Sgt. Tork has the power to rise from the dead,  I don't believe he would be in any shape to attend a wedding or anything else for that matter. In addition, I don't remember Tork being close to T'Challa. He was the gum on the bottom of Falcon's shoe as I recall.

Mr. Hudlin is doing an outstanding job with the Panther. I must say that - in my always humble opinion of course - that Mr. Hudlin's Panther is the best I've seen since the McGregor "Panther's Rage" arc.

989
Black Panther / Re: Hulk and BP
« on: July 27, 2006, 11:03:00 am »
The Black Panther and the Hulk have fought one on one once.  The Panther didn't fare very well, I'm sorry to say.

http://milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=05856107888%202




Well, you know what they say...."any fight against the Hulk you can walk away from...."


990
Black Panther / Re: Captain America and Black Panther
« on: July 27, 2006, 10:55:47 am »
Actually, its correct that Black Panther and Cap have fought twice.  However, they did not fight each other in CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS #1.  In that series, Cap fought Shamrock (superhero from Ireland) and Black Panther fought Wolverine.  Cap and the Panther did fight in CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS #2.

The Grandmaster was involved in their first fight however.  It took place in AVENGERS #71 (volume 1), when he sent the Panther, Yellowjacket, and the Vision back to the early 1940s.  That fight basically ended in a tie between the Panther and Cap.

Aha!!!

You're right Damon. The Panther did fight Wolverine in the first Contest Of Champions. You've refreshed my memory so much so, that I can even recollect Ben Grimm's comment to Wolverine. Wasn't it something like, "Runt, yours is one butt I'd like to boot from here to Boise?"

And now that you mention it, I now remember the Avengers #71 circumstance as well. It was Panther, Yellowjacket and Vision vs Sub-Mariner, the Original Human Torch and Captain America.....I think.

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