Hudlin Entertainment Forum

Quote from: A.Curry on December 20, 2017, 05:56:19 am

We can both agree Priest isn't a revolutionary or nationalist or a man that committed to his people...I seriously dont think he even thinks along those lines, nor along the lines of thinking he's promoting the superiority of the white male. He's merely a writer that wants to write white characters because his whole career he's only mainly been offered black characters, simply because he's black.  This doesn't mean he sees black characters as inferior, however.  Though yes, I’ve said in my posts on this before that he seems, for whatever reason, overly preoccupied and embarrassingly thankful about writing “white” characters.

This statement (particularly your 2nd sentence) is actually quite damning, ironically supportive of Ture's position (and mine) despite being offered by you in rebuttal A.C.. We have never prospered from giving clever folks the benefit of the doubt because they didn't actually say we weren't as as good as, profitable enough or worthy.

"This doesn't mean he sees black characters as inferior, however." Yes, it absolutely does!

Peace,

Mont

Nah brah, it really doesn’t.  You’re doing the same thing Ture is doing, but at least with him he admits he’s implying.  You can read into and pull a statement apart and rearrange/add to it to fit the argument you want to make, but nowhere in that statement you highlighted does it support Ture’s argument or your stance.  Though at least Ture is saying he’s “implying”...you say it “absolutely” does means he thinks they’re inferior, and the only way you can say absolutely is if the man actually said that. 

Wanting white characters to be an option to you as a writer isn’t thinking black characters are inferior, or “not as good as, or worthy”, and calling out the fact that, as a writer, you’ve been offered mostly one demographic of characters for most of your career because it’s the demographic you belong to, (which is arguably racist or at least prejudiced) and no longer wanting to do just that one demographic, isn’t thinking they’re inferior.  It’s wanting that entire wheelhouse available to you, especially the bigger, more popular characters that, because of various reasons, happen to be white. Especially since your peers were offered that various times.  And of course it was because of racism...having read Priest along with David and others, their talent is no greater than his.  Matter of fact, he taught David how to plot and write better.

I’ve admitted already Priest needs to express himself better, but yeah, he can be given the “benefit of the doubt” when not only has he spent the better part of his career writing and in many cases elevating black characters (arguably still the best BP to date, despite the usage of Ross) but also addressing in his own way political and social issues regarding race and being black (he did this in his Panther run and his Power Man/Iron Fist run) and has not only used existing black characters in even his recent work on Deathstroke when he probably didn’t have to, but is using to a great extent the current black characters in JL while even introducing a new one and bringing in his Panther analogue Red Lion.

Plus, I doubt he’d be friends with Hudllin or work with Milestone if he thought black characters were inferior.

What some actually want is for Priest to be excitedly committed to writing black characters and elevating them in the ways Ture has expressed that some of his peers have done with other characters...and he’s tried and done that somewhat in the past...but he’s just not that guy for that anymore for possibly a number of reasons...one of which could be that that’s for the most part all he’s been offered his career.  We think as a black man he should be committed to that responsibility and WANT to write just the black characters, when he’s already done that.

THIS isn’t saying being “black” is a limitation or being a “black” writer is limiting as Ture felt the need to explain...actually, in the context of a profession, putting your race before your profession can be limiting not because being “black” is limiting, but being seen as a “black’ writer does strongly imply to people that you are qualified or interested in only writing about black characters and about the black experience.  This would be limiting if I wanted to write Aquaman or an episode of the HBO show “GIRLS”, because what’s implied is that, yes, I’m obviously black, but I only write about black characters and the black experience.  So I’m probably not being offered Aquaman or GIRLS, but Cyborg or “Empire” instead.  That doesn’t mean one “wouldn’t” write those characters, but it does imply that you can’t, or aren’t interested, in writing others.  And it doesn’t matter who or what “allows” who to impose this implication on them...most of these people, like Priest, work in industries where putting your race first defines not only you, but you’re output and interest. 

And yes, that same limitation would apply if white writers went by the term “white writer”...if Bendis called himself a “white writer”, many would think he was a Richard Spencer type who is only interested in writing about white people and the white experience.  But he’s obviously not since he not only elevated Luke Cage, but created Miles Morales.  Shonda Rhimes, arguably and currently the most powerful woman, maybe person, in television currently, doesn’t call herself a “black” writer, but she absolutely defines herself as black by race.  Yet she’s created shows featuring a diverse racial make-up (Grey’s Anatomy) and a very popular one centering on a black woman (Scandal)

 Coates for instance is seen as a “black intellectual” and is probably fine with that, but that’s because his work and his interest solely centers on race and being black and the black experience regarding social and political issues. Nothing else. Same with Cornel West. And at this point that’s what’s expected of them. But that’s not what Priest is or wants to be.  He wants to be a writer “in general”.  Nothing wrong with that.

As far as the ridiculous inference that anyone said being “Black” is limiting, that’s not what was said.  It’s a numbers game in that having mostly ONLY black characters available to you is limiting, especially when, for whatever reason, the most popular and iconic ones are white. This does not mean being black in itself is limiting. But if I enter a room with 60 people in it and 30 of them are black, and somehow I’m allowed to only talk to the ones who are black, that cuts me off from 30 other people I might be interested in talking to, when I could have all 60 available to talk to.  I get it though, in this metaphor, we want the person to be cool with and satisfied and even committed to only talking to the 30 people in the room who are black...we want Priest to be cool with and committed, as a black man, to writing and elevating only black characters for a number of reasons.  He isn’t though...he has done that and is still doing that and wants other choices that he’s into and probably even relates to just as much as blackness (the man is married to a white woman, so...)

As far as the profit thing, again, that’s not saying black characters are inferior, but because of a number of reasons, racism being one, black characters in comics with the big 2 haven’t and don’t sell as much as many white ones. He was just telling the truth on that. BP over the last decade just became A-list and a high-seller. He’s kinda the only one in Marvel or DC at this point.  Cyborg, despite an over decades push and membership in the JLA, still can’t keep a book.  Cage, who is enjoying a higher profile now than he ever has, also just got canceled...again. Falcon basically has to take over being Captain America and still struggles.  Can we name one black (or even minority or gay) hero in Marvel or DC that is a high-seller other than T’challa?

As for you Ture, 1) if Priest thought black characters were inferior, again, why would he use them at all when he doesn’t have to?  Black “sidekicks” and analogues aside, he does use, highlight, and even introduce black characters even in his current work writing white characters...hell, he even brought in a host of other black characters in his Panther run (Cage, Brother Voodoo, Falcon, Nightshade, Storm, QUEEN DIVINE JUSTICE, Vibraxis) and you’re being disingenuous about the Ross thing...again, nowhere did he say he used Ross because he thought Panther as a black character was inferior...he did say he wanted to attract white readers and we can argue/agree about the fallacy in that way of thinking...but this doesn’t mean he thought Panther was inferior. It means, from his experience, that black characters often aren’t as marketable to a greater number of readers. Again, even now there’s evidence of that. He also said he wanted to juxtapose a white character and use him as an analogue to show the stereotypical ways some white people see blacks, and make fun of it.  Along with wanting Panther to be more mysterious and not a guy who talked a lot...thus he had Ross for a narrator.  It would be hard to believe the guy actually though T’Challa was inferior with the respectful way he wrote him.

2) I would be pissed if they told me I could ONLY write Sandman in his African incarnation...though I’d be interested in writing an african story with him in that incarnation.

3) The Crew and WOW were just terrible....I can’t say the board was responsible for that ending,  and didn’t Coates himself bring on these other writers like Narcisse and so forth?  Many don’t seem too impressed with Nnedi.  Isn’t it just as arguable that Panther is getting this much more story and attention due to the movie?  Or that other writers just like him?  I’m just as happy for the attention but come on...also, if you’re referring to Coates taking down his twitter, he did that because of the argument with West and the fact Richard Spencer came on his feed commenting about it, not because of Black Panther fans.  I’m sure he’s reacted to and notice quite a few fans don’t like what he’s doing, but he’s somehow still on the book and getting, still, a certain level of critical acclaim for it.  I don’t see it personally because I don’t like what he’s doing in the book either...but there it is.

This is the last post I’ll react to as we could go in circles for months guessing, implying, and inferring what Priest thinks or doesn’t think about race and black characters...I’m just saying for various reasons, there’s plenty of room for doubt when implying that he thinks black characters, or even people, are inferior.

CHEERS.

Quote from: A.Curry on December 19, 2017, 05:09:46 am

Funny thing is on many black sites people are saying West is just hating on Coates cause he's no longer the most lauded black voice...the same way he started hating on Obama cause Obama didn't kisst the rings of him and Smiley...I personally don't think it's that simple.

truths probably somewhere in the middle

Surprised that no one has brought up, or is talking about, Coates taking down his twitter due to the controversy over all this.  The man really doesn’t seem to like confrontation much...

Priest has no problem using his Panther in DC though...





justice league cover


tell me how this really makes any sense lol

Red Lion sounds like a worse guy than T’Challa, while Priest has a bit of fun poking fun at this being an obvious copy.  But he can do things with this guy he, as a professional writer, couldn’t do with Panther.

I”ve thought before it would be cool if DC/Marvel allowed him to do some meta-sh*t and Red Lion was “happy pants” panther from priest’s run that T’challa hid away...and he escaped to another plain of existence called “The DC”.  Then Panther would have to come into “The DC” to retrieve him, and maybe get into a fight with Deathstroke, along the way...

Quote from: Mortal Man on December 16, 2017, 08:35:45 pm

Quote from: Salustrade on December 16, 2017, 07:13:12 pm

Quote from: Kimoyo on December 16, 2017, 06:53:11 am

Mortal Man thank you for you brilliant and dead on the money commentary over CJP's disappointing, and frankly very disheartening comments!  You and brothers Sal, Ture and 4Sake have echoed all of the thoughts and feeling I've had in reading CJP's interview.  I remain grateful for what he did for BP and will try to hold on to that, but it is very difficult to appreciate him, even historically after hearing all he has to say, not the least of which is that he is a fan of what TNC has done to BP.  Words like self-loathing, pompous, shady and disingenuous come more immediately to mind.

My Two Cents.

Peace,

Mind

The thing that irks me the most is that some people still stay disrespecting Reginald Hudlin's wholly much more appropriate take on the BP Mythos whilst praising Priest wishy washy Ross centric BP like it was the second coming.

This is a fair point.  As much as some people like to throw shade at Hudlin's work, lets not act like Priest's work couldn't get that smear campaign bidnzess too if we looked past the big picture impact of it and instead got as granular with it as some like to do with Reginald's.

We could have a field day just about the Ross "problem" itself... let alone the troublesome origin/purpose of the Doras -which was just begging for a writer like Ta-Neisha to use against the mytho-, or Hunter/White Wolf... or all the cumbersome text on page that would make Adam Brasheer and his overtly verbose-laden soliloquies blush.

The good and impactful far outweighs the bad but I'd say the same holds true for Hudlin's run.  Shuri and his depiction of the Doras will now reign supreme in pop culture, forever.

These points up here are very well said. Very well said.

But I was there. On deck. When CJP wrote BP. You should have SEEN the HATE he was getting...from people who would NEEEVER read the book. I'm sayin...these fools were saying that BP shouldn't act like a King. I mean...LITERALLY saying that. Not just inferring it or making an argument TANTAMOUNT to it. They were LITERALLY like: "He's not really a King, so he shouldn't act like it."

LITERALLY. HUNDREDS of them were saying this. To CHEERS. Imagine CBR times a zillion. Yeah. That's what CJP dealt with.

I remember when he had BP defeat KRAVEN. Them racist White guys? Lost EVERY BIT of their minds. I'm serious. I remember hearing how BP should lose to KRAVEN because BP worshipped a Panther and Kraven had a lion pelt on him, and since lions can beat panthers? Kraven should ALWAYS defeat BP.

He made that argument and got a ring of applause for it.

R to the H got lotsa hate. His BLACK Panther? Got even more hate. His BLACK Panther is just STOMPIN fools depictions [ which still give me Panther-gasms and curled toe Panther talons today ]? Got even more hate. Most of us remember that. We know for sure that R to the H remembers every bit of that.

ANYONE who writes BP as he is meant to be in the 616 pre-Coogler? Will receive hate out of all proportion than if they took some underused White character like say...TASKMASTER, MOCKINGBIRD, DAZZLER, DOC SAMSON, WONDER MAN, SILVER FOX, TIGRA or LONGSHOT...and really made them the dopeness they're SUPPOSED TO BE.

As surprising as it was to see...even LISS and HICKMAN wasn't immune to the hate. Especially Hickman. Most especially Hickman. I knew he'd get side swiped for his initially prominent and uncompromising depictions of T'Challa, but the "Swiper No Swiping" that he got surprised me. Caused him to change some plotlines, I bet [ or at least that was the belated word of my at that time "insider" and ever ubiquitous secret informant ]. And this is hate piled atop of Hickman, who wrote a BP that we all had serious vomitous reactions to, at times [ and Sal probably from the moment that RH was removed from the book ]. HIckman, who most definitely didn't write as unflinchingly formidable a BP as either CJP or RH wrote.

 But CJP? By far got the most hate. By far. Not close. Even worse? He got alllll that hate...coupled with by far THE LEAST DEFENDERS. Because he did it in the smallest pond, with the most concentrated hate, the least possible restrictions on the forms of said hate, the strongest possible Editorial "I don't give a damn-isms", and more.  I mean, the word is really strong [ and confirmed ] that names like Chris Claremont told CJP to his face that his book wouldn't make it to 12 issues. And BET on it.

Right there is where the X-Office hate started. Cuz CJP went 5 plus years.

Then. To get THE CREW just dismissively canceled like that? No notice? Had to be told by outside sources that his joint was assassinated before it could even get 3 issues out? Hell naw. That? Is iodine, wax, and Harpy's poison in the open wounds.

So, yeah. CJP is a funny book vet. A legend, even. And he knows how to make the right noises to placate teh righ theads in order to smooth out where he wants to go. And ya know what? His last BP series was Ross-centric, too. And that CJP series? Was literally iconic, ground breaking, mold breaking, game changing...and the mandatory prerequisite to BP being in any movies, period. Unadulterated props and respect due.

If he wrote a 12 page joint centered on Ross...so? He kilt a 64 book series that was mostly Ross centered. He'll kill 12 pages, no problem. And won't diss TCHALLA in the process. I think we need to laud him for his relentless creativity, humor, and absolutely incredible writing chops. Not diss him because he's going back to a character...Ross...which was the POV character that put TCHALLA on the map FOR REAL. And made all this plausible, if not possible, in the first place.

Supreme, all this is well said and true...(and your post before citing mine made some great points that echoed mine too) and that's NOT to say Priest doesn't seem to have some issues involving race...he does...along with the way he expresses himself and this seemingly desperate need to write "white characters"...but let me address some things...

It would do well to ask or at least try to interpret, what people say, or the language being used, correctly without pulling a meaning out of it that wasn't intended.  "Normalcy" and "Mainstream" are not placeholders for "white".  Will Smith is mainstream.  Viola Davis is mainstream.  So is Kevin Hart and movies like "Girls Trip" and shows like "Scandal". Right now, the Black Panther is mainstream.  When Priest took on his book years ago, he wasn't.  It can be argued he always should've been, but he was not on the level of popularity that Daredevil, Spidey, and Batman were.  And the truth with comics, especially companies like Marvel and DC at the time, and even now, is that the major, most popular, most iconic characters in their possesion were not given to Priest in all his years to take steward of.  And yeah, most if not all of those characters happen to be white. And they outnumber all other races of characters in those companies by a HUGE percentage. 

And therein lies the problem and why, despite how he's expressing himself, and his own apparent issues, he has a point.

Steward of.  Writing "Captain America and the Falcon" is.not taking steward of Cap, being given the Captain America book is.  Writing a one-shot or limited issue book with Batman isn't being given steward of Bats, being given the BATMAN book is.  Writing "Justice League Task Force", a team of mostly C and D listers, isn't the same as writing JLA.  And who ever really gave a sh*t about The Ray?

I do think Preist likely has some self-hate issues, but if most of his career the books he's been given actual steward of are
mostly, if not all, the most popular black characters, is that not cutting him off from a huge percentage of other characters and especially the ones that are far more popular and iconic?  Who, yeah, happen to be white?

The comparison is disengenuous when white writers have taken on black characters while still having the greater amount of, and more popular, white characters open to them and a black writer doesn't.  Bendis can afford to take on Luke Cage when nearly every damn Marvel charactee has been given to him to take steward of. It also says something when, as pointed out before, one's contemporaries like Waid, David, and others have been given steward of these more popular, iconic characters when a Preist with his resume and time put in, hasn't. 

And SUPREME, you bought up and excellent point regarding the difference between a Preist and Hudlin...Hudlin can afford to come in and only be concerned with writing BP, putting him on the map, and this isn't an argument about his run being good or not good, it's that the dude is a millionaire and gets money from many avenues, while writing comics isn't even his main profession.  THIS IS Priest's profession, and has been for years, and being given the opportunity to write more popular, more well known characters like the Daredevils and Batmen not only raises his profile to a greater.height in the profession, but creates him more revenue.  Any writer writing BATMAN or AVENGERS is going to make more money than writing the FALCON.  This doesn't mean one refuses the Falcon because he's black, but one should have these other characters, who happen to be white, open to them as well.

As great of a job and focus as Priest did with BP, it still didn't sell as well or was as popular as DD at the time (the book he really wanted) and that meant less revenue for him.  And we can talk about the responsibility of being a black man and taking it upon oneself to write,create, and make more popular and iconic, black characters, which the man has tried to do and will be doing with Milestone, but why shouldn't he be concerned with raising his profile and bank account by writing these other characters he's never been given as well?

And he comes back after all these years, and he's given CYBORG?  Not only does the pattern continue, but who really wants to write Cyborg?

In the end, even im a bit disappointed he doesn't seem as interested in writing T'Challa again as he does Ross. Though even when he was wrting Ross and having him narrate, it was still in regards, through a second party, of showing and telling how awesome Panther truly was.  Panther was still the vehicle that drove the narrative.  And maybe he really doesn't have anything more to say with Panther now.

But after all this time, he's being given steward of the actual books of the more popular characters he's wanted to write and never did because yeah, he was largely only seen as a "black" writer and mostly given the books of the bigger black characters to take stewrd of while his contemporaries were seen as just "writers" and had everything, including the more popular, iconic characters, who yeah, are white, open to them.  If this is your profession, than its not about seeing black characters as inferior, but about your opportunities being limited in the work you're given.

I remember CAPTAIN AMERICAN and THE FALCON, but that's still not being given the actual Captain America book, which instead went to Brubaker, to helm.  And let's be honest, he was given it because of the Falcon.  Which is what he ended up with after all was said and done.

And I do remember him being editor on a lot of books back in the day, but that's still not the same as writing them.  With his history and background, Priest should've been given cart blanche to helm the books of characters the way his contemperaries like Peter David, Mark Waid, and Kurt Busiek have been given.

Also, I actually like Ross and wouldn't mind at all seeing him return as I enjoyed his character in the Priest book and mythos, just a little surprised Priest is basically more interested in writing Ross than Panther.  Though I do see him still wanting to use Ross...as he always loved that character and he's able to use him for snark and comic relief in ways he can't use Panther without writing him too out of character.

Most of what Priest is saying there makes a lot of sense, and I get why he would want to write other characters and not be pigeonholed...but geeze...his gleeful "thankfulness" towards the DC editors letting him write white characters is embarassing...like dude, calm down.

Frankly, I'd love to see a new, competent writer take on T'Challa since Priest is no longer interested and though I respected his ideas, was not the biggest fan of Hudlin's take. For instance, I'd LOVE to see what Tom King, who is doing amazing work on Batman and other books like Mister Miracle, would do with T'Challa.

I do think the language for the petition charge is unnecessarily inflammatory, but I guess the petitioner was into his feelings I guess, and he was being open, honest, and raw. When you put words like 'kill' in there that's too far. I mean, it's almost like blurring a line between reality and fantasy. T'Challa is not real and we don't need him to be to critique Coates's poor, demeaning take on the character.

Yes, it was hyperbolic to the point where it might not be taken very seriously at all...calling Coates “evil” was quite a bit much.  If the man himself reads it he’d probably laugh and shake his head thinking “crazed fan boys...”

Quote from: Emperorjones on July 02, 2017, 03:26:37 am

Quote from: Ture on June 27, 2017, 04:44:10 pm

So Coates's is to be rewarded for his lackluster, piss poor portrayal of the Black Panther and Wakanda (which he did on the eve of the greatest media event a comic book character can ask for) by getting to write Captain America. That figures.

Watch what a outstanding job he does respecting truth, justice and the American way while implicating the need for so called blacks to apologize to the white supremacists for all their transgressions in fighting captivity and enslavement; have some avian person of color character suggest making amends for not working hard enough and begging for civil rights; all the while spinning concept that the only thing holding minorities back is themselves. And I still bet the Falcon and Harlem will fair better than Black Panther and Wakanda did under his pen.

I just hope this means Coates is leaving Black Panther all together and much sooner than later. Get him off the BP main title by September if possible; let the movie hype stimulate the need for a new Black Panther comic all the way through to December.  Then announce the triumphant return of the Black Panther family of comics in January under the writers that made him a modern day legend and inspired the movie... Priest writing Black Panther and the Crew limited series and Hudlin writing Black Panther World of Wakanda limited series. Then drop a Guy Johnson - a respected so called black literary writer (since that seems Marvel's way, meaning literary writers) on the new on going  Black Panther title.

Let the healing begin.

I fear that your scenario describing how Coates is going to kneel before Captain America and show him proper respect, really over respect, in comparison to how he treated Panther and his legacy and the symbolism of that character, is going to happen. I also think that maybe Wilson and Harlem will be handled better by Coates. The urban US scene is a bit more in his lane. That being said, Wilson will likely be chin checked by Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Claire Temple, Nightshade, or perhaps someone of Coates's own creation to reinforce Wilson's beta status vis-a-vis Rogers.

Crazy thing is? Wilson ALREADY gets beat up by Misty Knight in his own book! I saw that happening and was like...hell naw! Yes. I get it. Misty is a true badazz, and had the IIF as her bf for years. But. Wilson is a acrobat and was the main sidekick to Steve Rogers CA forever. Personally trained by CA when he was considered hands down  the best in the biz. Misty should not have beaten Wilson, and if she did? It shouldn't be the thoroughly one-sided shellackin he got.



This pic above combined with this pic below, of Sam Wilson Captain America getting "talked down to pep talk" from Misty Knight, and being ordered around by her? Probably gave TNC a clitoral orgasm:



He couldn't wait to leave T'Challa right then and there, in order to further tear down and diss anutha brutha.

Gotta say supreme...that scene with Sam and Misty wasn't so bad, especially considering the part you didn't show...which was the practice fight ending with Misty on top of him flirting with him and looking like she was about to kiss him.  I got a Green Arrow/Black Canary vibe out of that scene...it always
Made sense that Canary was a more skilled fighter than Arrow and it makes sense that Misty, with her years of training in martial arts and having dated Danny Rand, (not to mention her bionic arm) would be a better fighter than Sam.  No shame there, plus she's always been quite aggressive.

Plus Sam put down and personally delivered Crossbones to Maria Hill in that book too...something I wasn't to sure about, but there you go.

Misty giving Sam tough talks to get his head together really wasn't a bad choice either, being that Sam was going through everything from living up to Cap's name and the public perception around him from doing it HIS way, to his outing with SHIELD, to all else he was dealing with and wasn't sure about.  Issues aside with Spencer, he still came off the main hero in that book, and the choice of Misty being a voice of reason and/or motivation to him displayed a cool friendship/slightly intimate relationship between a black man and woman that honestly...Misty herself isn't known much for.

Was better than Cap giving him a rallying speech all the time...