Author Topic: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly  (Read 15211 times)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 09:17:39 am »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2012, 09:11:39 am »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Ah, the King of Pop. This kind of parallels the top 5 women R&B discussion. Despite his preferred moniker, is MJ a R&B legend? I say yes. Much of his material is R&B that he made popular.
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Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2012, 09:06:33 pm »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Michael Jackson will be on the upcoming top 10 pop stars of all time.

OFF THE WALL gets MJ an honorable but no placement on the R&B countdown!

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2012, 05:04:00 am »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Michael Jackson will be on the upcoming top 10 pop stars of all time.

OFF THE WALL gets MJ an honorable but no placement on the R&B countdown!
Yes, Michael was a pop star, as in embraced by the world, but that doesn't determine the quality of his music. Just listen to him sing Smokey's WHO'S LOVIN' YOU while still a child...how many adults could squees that much feeling out of a song? 

Michael's template was James Brown and did a spot on impersonation of him while only 8 years old.

Offline Battle

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2012, 05:33:20 am »
Michael's template was James Brown and did a spot on impersonation of him while only 8 years old.





Yep!

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2012, 08:55:31 pm »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Michael Jackson will be on the upcoming top 10 pop stars of all time.

OFF THE WALL gets MJ an honorable but no placement on the R&B countdown!
Yes, Michael was a pop star, as in embraced by the world, but that doesn't determine the quality of his music. Just listen to him sing Smokey's WHO'S LOVIN' YOU while still a child...how many adults could squees that much feeling out of a song? 

Michael's template was James Brown and did a spot on impersonation of him while only 8 years old.


C'mon, Reggie you really want to argue this?

Lets see I conceded OFF THE WALL so it is everything after.

THRILLER- A great mix of pop and R&B but it leans more toward pop. 49% R&B. 51% POP

BAD- MJ jumped off the R&B ship completely.90% POP.

DANGEROUS- Teddy Riley is R&B personified so I will be generous in my breakdown. 76% POP. You can reduce it by 10% for the New Jack Swing

HISTORY- 100% POP!

INVINCIBLE- 98% POP.

This is too much pop for even you to deny.

Michael Jackson is DISQUALIFIED from placement in the R&B countdown.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2012, 05:20:13 am »
Before I even argue the silly "stats" you apply to his adult solo career, are you really trying to ignore his work with the Jackson 5, the Jacksons and his youth solo career? You can take any one of those and crush most artists with depth and breath of output. 

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2012, 08:04:42 am »
Let's not confuse music sales categories with music categories. Remember, Pop doesn't define a genre of music. It's short for Popular and comprises whatever is selling. There have been plenty of R&B records on the pop charts. 
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2012, 10:12:18 am »
Before I even argue the silly "stats" you apply to his adult solo career, are you really trying to ignore his work with the Jackson 5, the Jacksons and his youth solo career? You can take any one of those and crush most artists with depth and breath of output. 

The Jackson 5, Jacksons and the 3 solo youth albums aren't really a hallmark of the essential Michael Jackson. The MJ that truly had agency in his music and later total control in terms of material is the one involved in OFF THE WALL to INVINCIBLE. Sure, Jackson was always a tremendous entertainer and singer but the ARTIST emerged from the albums I listed.

While Jackson would never deny his musical origins I seriously doubt he wanted his talent judged by his youth career over his true adult solo legacy.

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2012, 10:34:12 am »
Let's not confuse music sales categories with music categories. Remember, Pop doesn't define a genre of music. It's short for Popular and comprises whatever is selling. There have been plenty of R&B records on the pop charts. 

This is just wrong.

Every Black artist from Little Richard has been keenly aware of what "Pop" means.  To define it is pretty hard but from the perspective of Black artists and fans I believe it can be described as the following.

Pop- Music devoid of just enough Soul/Funk as to be palatable to a cross-section of White fans.

Now a clear caveat would have to be that the definition is pre-Rap as that genre changed the game completely. Rappers never conformed and actually forced the White execs and White fans to accept their music in its most raw form.

To Michael Jackson, during his youth career he was under the tutelage of a man who is nothing short of an alchemist in finding the ratio between soul/funk and pop, Berry Gordy. Gordy figured out just how much soul to extract from a Black song to make it a cross-genre hit. This practice wasn't lost on Jackson and he utilized it in his own career.

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2012, 10:37:54 am »
No one put Michael Jackson on this list?

Michael Jackson will be on the upcoming top 10 pop stars of all time.

OFF THE WALL gets MJ an honorable but no placement on the R&B countdown!


Michael's template was James Brown and did a spot on impersonation of him while only 8 years old.


I meant to refer to this earlier.

Michael's PERFORMANCE template was James Brown not his music.

Michael's career from the Jackson 5 to INVINCIBLE was devoid of pure funk and Soul.

How can someone utilize a James Brown template when its devoid of funk?

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2012, 11:37:36 am »
Let's not confuse music sales categories with music categories. Remember, Pop doesn't define a genre of music. It's short for Popular and comprises whatever is selling. There have been plenty of R&B records on the pop charts. 


This is just wrong.

Every Black artist from Little Richard has been keenly aware of what "Pop" means.  To define it is pretty hard but from the perspective of Black artists and fans I believe it can be described as the following.

Pop- Music devoid of just enough Soul/Funk as to be palatable to a cross-section of White fans.


Well, Aretha Franklin had 41 Top 40 Pop hits including two #1s. Oh, and James Brown, The Godfather of Soul, he had a few too.

Calling Pop a musical genre is like calling Box Office Hits a movie genre.

To Michael Jackson, during his youth career he was under the tutelage of a man who is nothing short of an alchemist in finding the ratio between soul/funk and pop, Berry Gordy. Gordy figured out just how much soul to extract from a Black song to make it a cross-genre hit. This practice wasn't lost on Jackson and he utilized it in his own career.


It's true that he learned form Gordy. But are you seriously claiming that that Motown is not R&B?
And the term is cross-over hit. Just because something sells doesn't make it lesser. 
Black comes in different flavors, ya know.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 11:49:18 am by Curtis Metcalf »
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Battle

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2012, 12:22:40 pm »
Interesting thing about Motown is that it was the only American black-owned independant record company/label (that did R&B) to be able to preserve thier entire music catalogue and be able to be bought out by larger entertainment entity (Universal) whereas there were many R&B (some black-owned, some not) independant labels out there at the time that Motown started that went bankrupt and all of thier hit songs went missing. :-\

Offline The Griot

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2012, 05:43:30 am »
Marvin Gaye.
"Happiness is dancing when the drumming is good."

Offline stanleyballard

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Re: Marvin Gaye or R Kelly
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2012, 06:38:31 pm »
Is this thread real?  LOL  ;D

Marvin Gaye ....even if it was just his divorce CD containing "Just To Keep U Satisfied"...phenomenal & inspired work.