Author Topic: What If? Priest continued writing Panther  (Read 60608 times)

Offline Yaw

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What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« on: December 09, 2006, 12:30:57 am »
I just found this at http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=19379.  This is from PRiest himself.

Quote
As I mention in another thread, the logical progression for PANTHER would have been to turn him into a villain. To make Storm's prophecy come true and make him an enormous threat to the world.

Only to be redeemed in the end, of course.

The Once & Future King story had implications of this, including a bit I ripped off of Jack "King" Kirby's fabulous "Pact" from NEW GODS. King T'Challa has two kids, T'Charra and Faida (named after my friend, actress Oni Faida Lamphley: the woman shot in the head in the pilot episode of Homicide: Life On The Streets, and more recently seen as a spiteful police lieutenant on the CBS show Hack).

Faida was Malice's daughter (implying Malice is either now pregnant or has already given birth to T'Challa's daughter, something we were going to deal with in PANTHER), while T'Charra's parentage was not revealed (but, c'mon, who else could it be).

Had I continued on PANTHER, I would have explored the whole villain thing, married T'Challa off to Storm (it would not have worked out long-term, but it would help redeem Panther), and evolved the business of Panther's children (and the complex relationship between Ross and Monica).


So what are your thoughts on what could have been Panther?


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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2006, 06:58:24 am »
Quote
married T'Challa off to Storm (it would not have worked out long-term, but it would help redeem Panther)

Ah, yes. Another noble Negro sacrifice in which Storm doesn't get any. Again.

 ::)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 07:08:15 am by Jenn »

Offline Yaw

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2006, 07:03:15 am »
Personally, this furthers my convictions that Priest leaving the title may not have been a bad thing.  As far as Priest was concerned he was still writing about Black Panther in "The Crew."  For him Kasper WAS the Black Panther.  Priest did alot for T'Challa.  He turned T'Challa into a strong and formidable man like his first appearance in FF4.  However if he were allowed to continue writing T'Challa he would have turned him into a monster..

Not trying to spread Priest hate or anything ( cuz I do think he was a good writer) but when I read this I was sort of appalled.

Lets face facts:

1. BP would have impregnated the woman who killed or tried to kill everyone close to him.
2.  BP would have pushed Monica Lynne into the arms of ROSS.
3.  Storm would have been to blame for T'Challa going crazy and becoming obsessed with Magneto.
4.  BP would have become a villain (at least temporarily).
5.  BP would have married Storm temporarily and then would have divorced. (Hmm and this is not a gimmick?)

Is this what you would have wanted to see for the future of Black Panther?

Jenn

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2006, 07:08:42 am »
Funny how the fans would've been all for that, but not for Storm marrying BP for LOVE.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2006, 09:15:55 am »
Personally, this furthers my convictions that Priest leaving the title may not have been a bad thing.  As far as Priest was concerned he was still writing about Black Panther in "The Crew."  For him Kasper WAS the Black Panther.  Priest did alot for T'Challa.  He turned T'Challa into a strong and formidable man like his first appearance in FF4.  However if he were allowed to continue writing T'Challa he would have turned him into a monster..

Not trying to spread Priest hate or anything ( cuz I do think he was a good writer) but when I read this I was sort of appalled.

Lets face facts:

1. BP would have impregnated the woman who killed or tried to kill everyone close to him.
2.  BP would have pushed Monica Lynne into the arms of ROSS.
3.  Storm would have been to blame for T'Challa going crazy and becoming obsessed with Magneto.
4.  BP would have become a villain (at least temporarily).
5.  BP would have married Storm temporarily and then would have divorced. (Hmm and this is not a gimmick?)

Is this what you would have wanted to see for the future of Black Panther?

I've known this for quite some time,and I know from the various convos we've had on Priest's site that there is of course much,much more to this than just this basic outline.The Fact is,WAKANDA'S EXISTENCE IS A THREAT TOTHE WORLD,as the world is dominated by Western powers that drain the world of precious resources and pollute and contaminate the planet as a matter of course,all in the name of holy profit and unholy power.I believe--based upon BP#48 I think it was,when BP first started having real delusion of Magneto and faced off with Queen Divine Justice and the Man-Ape and Vibraxas--that what we were looking at happening is (typical of Priest) nowhere as simple and cut and dried as it seemed. BP and STORM would still love one another but they would have had a season that passed,like Storm and Forge.While I'm not thrilled at that--I would want them to STAY TOGETHER--it's part of thegrand storytelling style that I would expect from PRIEST...when he writes a tragedy,it's EPIC in scope and nature.And it's not that our incredible heroes are faultless,it's that when they mess up they find an incredible mess--and their character and mettle is tested further by overcoming problems and obstacles taht are at the core the results of their mistakes,of THEIR failures,that challenges the character,gives them both the edge of darkness and sadness and the epic,Iliad-like transcendant triumphs that end with redemption...

Bottom line,this storyline is something I would have loved to see.I remember how my heart felt so wrenched at Aida and Tcharra,thewhole Moncia and Ross thing...I mean...it was sad,teribly terribly sad...

...but I'll be damned if PRIEST didn't rip one helluva homer on this series.I mean,the battle with Tcharra was unbelievable,the opener wherein he TACKLES A FULL GROWN BLACK RHINO WHEN TCHALLA IS LIKE 50 YEARS OLD is UNBELIEVABLE,the way that arc ended--with Achebe coming out of nowhere at TCHALLA's behest,shows once again that NO MATTER HOW DIRE AND DARK the circumstances appear,no matte how HORRIBLE things are...

...man,lemme say it how PRIEST had THE BLACK DRAGON in ROSS' body say it in his run #30:"THIS IS THE BLACK PANTHER.EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED."
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Yaw

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2006, 09:45:22 am »
Personally, this furthers my convictions that Priest leaving the title may not have been a bad thing.  As far as Priest was concerned he was still writing about Black Panther in "The Crew."  For him Kasper WAS the Black Panther.  Priest did alot for T'Challa.  He turned T'Challa into a strong and formidable man like his first appearance in FF4.  However if he were allowed to continue writing T'Challa he would have turned him into a monster..

Not trying to spread Priest hate or anything ( cuz I do think he was a good writer) but when I read this I was sort of appalled.

Lets face facts:

1. BP would have impregnated the woman who killed or tried to kill everyone close to him.
2.  BP would have pushed Monica Lynne into the arms of ROSS.
3.  Storm would have been to blame for T'Challa going crazy and becoming obsessed with Magneto.
4.  BP would have become a villain (at least temporarily).
5.  BP would have married Storm temporarily and then would have divorced. (Hmm and this is not a gimmick?)

Is this what you would have wanted to see for the future of Black Panther?

I've known this for quite some time,and I know from the various convos we've had on Priest's site that there is of course much,much more to this than just this basic outline.The Fact is,WAKANDA'S EXISTENCE IS A THREAT TOTHE WORLD,as the world is dominated by Western powers that drain the world of precious resources and pollute and contaminate the planet as a matter of course,all in the name of holy profit and unholy power.I believe--based upon BP#48 I think it was,when BP first started having real delusion of Magneto and faced off with Queen Divine Justice and the Man-Ape and Vibraxas--that what we were looking at happening is (typical of Priest) nowhere as simple and cut and dried as it seemed. BP and STORM would still love one another but they would have had a season that passed,like Storm and Forge.While I'm not thrilled at that--I would want them to STAY TOGETHER--it's part of thegrand storytelling style that I would expect from PRIEST...when he writes a tragedy,it's EPIC in scope and nature.And it's not that our incredible heroes are faultless,it's that when they mess up they find an incredible mess--and their character and mettle is tested further by overcoming problems and obstacles taht are at the core the results of their mistakes,of THEIR failures,that challenges the character,gives them both the edge of darkness and sadness and the epic,Iliad-like transcendant triumphs that end with redemption...

Bottom line,this storyline is something I would have loved to see.I remember how my heart felt so wrenched at Aida and Tcharra,thewhole Moncia and Ross thing...I mean...it was sad,teribly terribly sad...

...but I'll be damned if PRIEST didn't rip one helluva homer on this series.I mean,the battle with Tcharra was unbelievable,the opener wherein he TACKLES A FULL GROWN BLACK RHINO WHEN TCHALLA IS LIKE 50 YEARS OLD is UNBELIEVABLE,the way that arc ended--with Achebe coming out of nowhere at TCHALLA's behest,shows once again that NO MATTER HOW DIRE AND DARK the circumstances appear,no matte how HORRIBLE things are...

...man,lemme say it how PRIEST had THE BLACK DRAGON in ROSS' body say it in his run #30:"THIS IS THE BLACK PANTHER.EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED."
'

BUT where is the redemption?  THere was no redemption in any of the run.  Panther was on a downward spiral from the beginning and never saw an ascension (until Kasper became BP).  The future story arc proves to me that in the end T'Challa was a loser.

Offline Ed

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2006, 09:51:07 am »
I wonder if that was his plan before or after he created Kasper. He probably saw the end in sight and forgot about the whole thing and then decided to do the whole Kasper thing.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2006, 01:05:44 pm »
Personally, this furthers my convictions that Priest leaving the title may not have been a bad thing.  As far as Priest was concerned he was still writing about Black Panther in "The Crew."  For him Kasper WAS the Black Panther.  Priest did alot for T'Challa.  He turned T'Challa into a strong and formidable man like his first appearance in FF4.  However if he were allowed to continue writing T'Challa he would have turned him into a monster..

Not trying to spread Priest hate or anything ( cuz I do think he was a good writer) but when I read this I was sort of appalled.

Lets face facts:

1. BP would have impregnated the woman who killed or tried to kill everyone close to him.
2.  BP would have pushed Monica Lynne into the arms of ROSS.
3.  Storm would have been to blame for T'Challa going crazy and becoming obsessed with Magneto.
4.  BP would have become a villain (at least temporarily).
5.  BP would have married Storm temporarily and then would have divorced. (Hmm and this is not a gimmick?)

Is this what you would have wanted to see for the future of Black Panther?

I've known this for quite some time,and I know from the various convos we've had on Priest's site that there is of course much,much more to this than just this basic outline.The Fact is,WAKANDA'S EXISTENCE IS A THREAT TOTHE WORLD,as the world is dominated by Western powers that drain the world of precious resources and pollute and contaminate the planet as a matter of course,all in the name of holy profit and unholy power.I believe--based upon BP#48 I think it was,when BP first started having real delusion of Magneto and faced off with Queen Divine Justice and the Man-Ape and Vibraxas--that what we were looking at happening is (typical of Priest) nowhere as simple and cut and dried as it seemed. BP and STORM would still love one another but they would have had a season that passed,like Storm and Forge.While I'm not thrilled at that--I would want them to STAY TOGETHER--it's part of thegrand storytelling style that I would expect from PRIEST...when he writes a tragedy,it's EPIC in scope and nature.And it's not that our incredible heroes are faultless,it's that when they mess up they find an incredible mess--and their character and mettle is tested further by overcoming problems and obstacles taht are at the core the results of their mistakes,of THEIR failures,that challenges the character,gives them both the edge of darkness and sadness and the epic,Iliad-like transcendant triumphs that end with redemption...

Bottom line,this storyline is something I would have loved to see.I remember how my heart felt so wrenched at Aida and Tcharra,thewhole Moncia and Ross thing...I mean...it was sad,teribly terribly sad...

...but I'll be damned if PRIEST didn't rip one helluva homer on this series.I mean,the battle with Tcharra was unbelievable,the opener wherein he TACKLES A FULL GROWN BLACK RHINO WHEN TCHALLA IS LIKE 50 YEARS OLD is UNBELIEVABLE,the way that arc ended--with Achebe coming out of nowhere at TCHALLA's behest,shows once again that NO MATTER HOW DIRE AND DARK the circumstances appear,no matte how HORRIBLE things are...

...man,lemme say it how PRIEST had THE BLACK DRAGON in ROSS' body say it in his run #30:"THIS IS THE BLACK PANTHER.EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED."
'

BUT where is the redemption?  THere was no redemption in any of the run.  Panther was on a downward spiral from the beginning and never saw an ascension (until Kasper became BP).  The future story arc proves to me that in the end T'Challa was a loser.

Dawg,he flat out said that Panther would be redeemed,and it would happen WHILE HE IS MARRIED TO STORM,ya know? So he'd return to the cunning,calculating,quiet,ultra-tricky,super-maniplulative "Gepetto with his strings" BP that we have always known and loved.He'd also not be EVIL,in the sense of say...THE RED SKULL.He'd be "evil" in the sense that classic Chris Claremont MAGNETO was 'evil"...a person who never though of himself as a "villain" or the capes as "heroes",but whom took effectively the Malcolm X stand to Xavier's Martin Luther King Jr. There is a great deal of sense,of nobility even,in that stance...even if you disagree with Malcolm's philosophy.One of the main purposes of turning BP into a villain would be to underscore jsut how truly brilliant,dangerous,mysterious and even tortured he is.This would've been a spectacular thing,the lieks of which is reserved for adults who like multilayered stories filled with depth,meaning,irony,humor,wit,tragedy,pain,love,rage,death,life...the near complete and absolute ruin of all that the main character is and holds dear...and then his incredible,defying the odds AND the gods comeback.It's Chaka Zulu suddenly returning from the hinterlands and banishing the Boers,it's Queen Nzinga wrathfully returning from the grave and rallying her dismembered countrymen,then personally leading them to everlasting glory as they hurled out the rapacious Portuguese and Dutch slavers (this is historically accurate,Queen Nzinga did in fact pull this feat off,lol,but that's another story),it's Captain America leading the worldwide counterattack against the shapeshifting aliens...it's Napolean returning from banishment and Waterloo for one last dazzling,death defying,immortality bringing triumph that lands him back on the throne of France...it's the ever brilliant Touissaint L'Ouverture outthinking and outfighting and out-politicking the greatest minds and generals and politicians of his time combined...it's Dessaline leading his soldiers and defying an army 10 times its size...it's Zumbi dos Palmares of Brazil striking down the slavers from his quilombo and freeing the slaves in dazzling,daring,cunning,cutthroat capoeira combat amid night raids and ambushes wheerin he and his warriors appeared from nowhere and just as suddenly vanished into nothing at all...it's Gloria Richardson with her guns...


...it's the stuff of legends.It's the spirit and mind and man Rudyard Kipling glimpsed in his imagination that inspired him to write his classic poem:"A MAN".It's Batman proving to be the most hopeful of superheroes in the follou-up to FALL OF THE DARK KNIGHT,wherein shazam dies and Superman and Wonder Woman's daughter comes to the fore.It's the kind of epic that inspires and impresses and travels the whole gamut of human emotion and experience,from the most damning and horrifying of darkest travails and faliures and despair and madness....to the literal ultimate summit of all that is good within us.

This,too,is THE BLACK PANTHER...and we're seeing glimpses of him as RH continues to write his book.
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Yaw

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2006, 03:17:25 pm »


Dawg,he flat out said that Panther would be redeemed,and it would happen WHILE HE IS MARRIED TO STORM,ya know? So he'd return to the cunning,calculating,quiet,ultra-tricky,super-maniplulative "Gepetto with his strings" BP that we have always known and loved.He'd also not be EVIL,in the sense of say...THE RED SKULL.He'd be "evil" in the sense that classic Chris Claremont MAGNETO was 'evil"...a person who never though of himself as a "villain" or the capes as "heroes",but whom took effectively the Malcolm X stand to Xavier's Martin Luther King Jr. There is a great deal of sense,of nobility even,in that stance...even if you disagree with Malcolm's philosophy.One of the main purposes of turning BP into a villain would be to underscore jsut how truly brilliant,dangerous,mysterious and even tortured he is.This would've been a spectacular thing,the lieks of which is reserved for adults who like multilayered stories filled with depth,meaning,irony,humor,wit,tragedy,pain,love,rage,death,life...the near complete and absolute ruin of all that the main character is and holds dear...and then his incredible,defying the odds AND the gods comeback.It's Chaka Zulu suddenly returning from the hinterlands and banishing the Boers,it's Queen Nzinga wrathfully returning from the grave and rallying her dismembered countrymen,then personally leading them to everlasting glory as they hurled out the rapacious Portuguese and Dutch slavers (this is historically accurate,Queen Nzinga did in fact pull this feat off,lol,but that's another story),it's Captain America leading the worldwide counterattack against the shapeshifting aliens...it's Napolean returning from banishment and Waterloo for one last dazzling,death defying,immortality bringing triumph that lands him back on the throne of France...it's the ever brilliant Touissaint L'Ouverture outthinking and outfighting and out-politicking the greatest minds and generals and politicians of his time combined...it's Dessaline leading his soldiers and defying an army 10 times its size...it's Zumbi dos Palmares of Brazil striking down the slavers from his quilombo and freeing the slaves in dazzling,daring,cunning,cutthroat capoeira combat amid night raids and ambushes wheerin he and his warriors appeared from nowhere and just as suddenly vanished into nothing at all...it's Gloria Richardson with her guns...
I respectfully disagree.

In all of the examples you give, the essential element that you give is that the each of the protagonists has a clear enemy that has played a significant role in causing the downfall of the protagonist.  Also each of those protagonist's still has a strong sense of nobility backing them (save for Napolean) that makes their near defeat but inevitable win all the more satisfying. This is not the case for T'Challa whose dementia and turn to villiainy is in large due to his own actions and decisions. 

As far as redemption, yes Priest said he would be redeemed.  My only issue is that in 49 issues of T'Challa we see him go from a respectable ruler of a powerful nation to mentally unstable, paranoid recluse who abandons his throne and by the end of the series technically does not have the right to call himself the Black Panther.  We saw T'Challa fall and never rise up, we just got a replacement in some loser from New York.  Let's not even consider the fact that the future in store for T'Challa is yet again a tale of misery.  I'm not saying I don't want drama but goddamn don't destroy the character.  Maybe if BP was an A-list character like Iron Man, a temporary and somewhat misguided negative portrayal would be fine.  However the facts are that BP is NOT A-list and that kind of portrayal can kill the character or at least set the way for a total reconstruction of his history if he is to be brought back. 

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2006, 03:48:41 pm »


Dawg,he flat out said that Panther would be redeemed,and it would happen WHILE HE IS MARRIED TO STORM,ya know? So he'd return to the cunning,calculating,quiet,ultra-tricky,super-maniplulative "Gepetto with his strings" BP that we have always known and loved.He'd also not be EVIL,in the sense of say...THE RED SKULL.He'd be "evil" in the sense that classic Chris Claremont MAGNETO was 'evil"...a person who never though of himself as a "villain" or the capes as "heroes",but whom took effectively the Malcolm X stand to Xavier's Martin Luther King Jr. There is a great deal of sense,of nobility even,in that stance...even if you disagree with Malcolm's philosophy.One of the main purposes of turning BP into a villain would be to underscore jsut how truly brilliant,dangerous,mysterious and even tortured he is.This would've been a spectacular thing,the lieks of which is reserved for adults who like multilayered stories filled with depth,meaning,irony,humor,wit,tragedy,pain,love,rage,death,life...the near complete and absolute ruin of all that the main character is and holds dear...and then his incredible,defying the odds AND the gods comeback.It's Chaka Zulu suddenly returning from the hinterlands and banishing the Boers,it's Queen Nzinga wrathfully returning from the grave and rallying her dismembered countrymen,then personally leading them to everlasting glory as they hurled out the rapacious Portuguese and Dutch slavers (this is historically accurate,Queen Nzinga did in fact pull this feat off,lol,but that's another story),it's Captain America leading the worldwide counterattack against the shapeshifting aliens...it's Napolean returning from banishment and Waterloo for one last dazzling,death defying,immortality bringing triumph that lands him back on the throne of France...it's the ever brilliant Touissaint L'Ouverture outthinking and outfighting and out-politicking the greatest minds and generals and politicians of his time combined...it's Dessaline leading his soldiers and defying an army 10 times its size...it's Zumbi dos Palmares of Brazil striking down the slavers from his quilombo and freeing the slaves in dazzling,daring,cunning,cutthroat capoeira combat amid night raids and ambushes wheerin he and his warriors appeared from nowhere and just as suddenly vanished into nothing at all...it's Gloria Richardson with her guns...
I respectfully disagree.

In all of the examples you give, the essential element that you give is that the each of the protagonists has a clear enemy that has played a significant role in causing the downfall of the protagonist.  Also each of those protagonist's still has a strong sense of nobility backing them (save for Napolean) that makes their near defeat but inevitable win all the more satisfying. This is not the case for T'Challa whose dementia and turn to villiainy is in large due to his own actions and decisions. 

As far as redemption, yes Priest said he would be redeemed.  My only issue is that in 49 issues of T'Challa we see him go from a respectable ruler of a powerful nation to mentally unstable, paranoid recluse who abandons his throne and by the end of the series technically does not have the right to call himself the Black Panther.  We saw T'Challa fall and never rise up, we just got a replacement in some loser from New York.  Let's not even consider the fact that the future in store for T'Challa is yet again a tale of misery.  I'm not saying I don't want drama but goddamn don't destroy the character.  Maybe if BP was an A-list character like Iron Man, a temporary and somewhat misguided negative portrayal would be fine.  However the facts are that BP is NOT A-list and that kind of portrayal can kill the character or at least set the way for a total reconstruction of his history if he is to be brought back. 

I agree that at the point wherein the story stopped,TChalla HAD lost the chieftanship,he had a whole host of negatives to deal with,not to mention the inoperable brain anuerysm due to his throwdown with Iron Fist...but I disagree that we find TCHALLA victimized by dementia.If anything,I think his world class brilliance and nobility was displayed by his selection and manipulation of Kasper and al lthe forces around Kasper..which resulted in his resumption of the throne.I have no doubt that TCHALLA was manipulating circumstances from the background,and we wouldn't be aware of it until the interplay of other characters essential to the book brought this fact to light.We were seeing it already with his reintroduction to the book via Kasper,and his handling of Killmonger's attempt to corrupt Kasper.Yeah,I really liked Kasper,not only in his own right but also as a new set of eyes through which to view TChalla.Remember,a great deal of what was to come simply didn't get a chance to come off as PRIEST would have preferred it,and other issues of sale and office politics and the like had an enormous impact on the entire situation,becoming the catalyst that prompted Priest to introduce Kasper in the first place.That was a beautiful storyline..we get to see some of the  truly extraordinary things that set TChalla apart from all of the rest of us,and through the eyes of another exceptional human being,and that person is Kasper.

I don't think that PRIEST's depiction of TCHALLA's descent into darkness would result in the destruction of the character or open the door to massive retcon and reshaping,as I'm sure that PRIEST himself rejected those possiblities so thoroughly that he wouldn't embark upon a story that would do either to BP.I think that PRIEST would have pulled off what he was aiming for,given sufficient time...as he would have with CAF,I am sure.
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Ed

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 08:24:39 am »
I am a huge fan of panther but I actually think it would have been a great story to see him lose everything like he did and then become a villian. That's the best thing about Marvel, it shows the characters as real people and sometimes people go bad. It would have made sense to me because the panther would not have seen himself as a villian. It's not like he would run around New York robbing banks. That's why I liked Priest's panther more then Hudlin's panther, Hudlin's story shows T'challa perfect in every way ( not that I don't understand or enjoy the series, because I really do), Priest's showed him as having prefection and losing at every turn. It was like tragic hero status.

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 11:31:33 am »
I am a huge fan of panther but I actually think it would have been a great story to see him lose everything like he did and then become a villian. That's the best thing about Marvel, it shows the characters as real people and sometimes people go bad. It would have made sense to me because the panther would not have seen himself as a villian. It's not like he would run around New York robbing banks. That's why I liked Priest's panther more then Hudlin's panther, Hudlin's story shows T'challa perfect in every way ( not that I don't understand or enjoy the series, because I really do), Priest's showed him as having prefection and losing at every turn. It was like tragic hero status.

Much respect, Ed. But to have a character of T'Challa's history and stature "go bad" and become a villian would probably be one of the worst things that could happen to him. Ironically, I have a feeling that those anti-Hudlin/anti-"perfect, indomitable and always victorious" Black Panther non-fans probably would have loved seeing T'Challa descend to such an ignominious depth. When Captain America lost faith in a corrupt U.S. government and assumed the Nomad identity, he didn't have to "go bad" to pull it off. When Peter Parker created 4 different identities for the purpose of clearing his name, he didn't have to "go bad" to make it work for him. When Daredevil - using the Punisher's own weapon - shot the Punisher in the arm, he didn't see it as going bad. He was preventing an out-of-control vigilante from comitting a murder. Has there ever been a major character of either Marvel or DC Comics who has ever gone "bad"?

I have to agree with everything Yaw has posted thus far. Hudlin's Panther is magnificent. He is a flawed human, but not so flawed that he has reached to the point of insanity. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the Panther is a positive role model for young black readers of comicbooks. He is a work of fiction. But I believe it would be very depressing and destructive in a way if Hudlin had adopted the concept of allowing T'Challa to be portrayed as a "tragic hero" who despite his best efforts, was destined to lose "at every turn." Too many young, black urban youths see that act played out in real life. It's Tupac Shakur's "So Many Tears". It's James, Florida, J.J., Thelma and Michael Evans in the Chicago projects in an episode of "Good Times".

I'd hate to see T'Challa, the Black Panther portrayed as a "nut" who "went bad" and wasn't aware of the fact that he had gone bad. He is fine as he is.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 11:34:46 am by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Yaw

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 12:11:32 pm »
I am a huge fan of panther but I actually think it would have been a great story to see him lose everything like he did and then become a villian. That's the best thing about Marvel, it shows the characters as real people and sometimes people go bad. It would have made sense to me because the panther would not have seen himself as a villian. It's not like he would run around New York robbing banks. That's why I liked Priest's panther more then Hudlin's panther, Hudlin's story shows T'challa perfect in every way ( not that I don't understand or enjoy the series, because I really do), Priest's showed him as having prefection and losing at every turn. It was like tragic hero status.

Much respect, Ed. But to have a character of T'Challa's history and stature "go bad" and become a villian would probably be one of the worst things that could happen to him. Ironically, I have a feeling that those anti-Hudlin/anti-"perfect, indomitable and always victorious" Black Panther non-fans probably would have loved seeing T'Challa descend to such an ignominious depth. When Captain America lost faith in a corrupt U.S. government and assumed the Nomad identity, he didn't have to "go bad" to pull it off. When Peter Parker created 4 different identities for the purpose of clearing his name, he didn't have to "go bad" to make it work for him. When Daredevil - using the Punisher's own weapon - shot the Punisher in the arm, he didn't see it as going bad. He was preventing an out-of-control vigilante from comitting a murder. Has there ever been a major character of either Marvel or DC Comics who has ever gone "bad"?


Thanks sin.

You know what that is the real question.  Who are the major characters that have gone bad in Marvel or DC?

I'm really curious about this.  On top of who went bad, what were the circumstances leading to the conversion?  I know a hero going bad is a common motif you fin din superhero comics however also just as common is the fact thatt the hero went bad due to external factors (ie. mind-control, brainwashing, externally-induced insanity) as opposed to internal factors (i.e. personal decisions, natural loss of sanity).

I find it interesting that people are willing to accept these horrendous circumstances for the sake of reading a "good story" when other more popular heroes never reason equal treatment.  Why must T'Challa be the "tragic hero?"  Here I thought that being a member of the most advanced nation in the world would afford one some luxuries.  I guess I was wrong.  :-\

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 12:30:12 pm »
I am a huge fan of panther but I actually think it would have been a great story to see him lose everything like he did and then become a villian. That's the best thing about Marvel, it shows the characters as real people and sometimes people go bad. It would have made sense to me because the panther would not have seen himself as a villian. It's not like he would run around New York robbing banks. That's why I liked Priest's panther more then Hudlin's panther, Hudlin's story shows T'challa perfect in every way ( not that I don't understand or enjoy the series, because I really do), Priest's showed him as having prefection and losing at every turn. It was like tragic hero status.

Much respect, Ed. But to have a character of T'Challa's history and stature "go bad" and become a villian would probably be one of the worst things that could happen to him. Ironically, I have a feeling that those anti-Hudlin/anti-"perfect, indomitable and always victorious" Black Panther non-fans probably would have loved seeing T'Challa descend to such an ignominious depth. When Captain America lost faith in a corrupt U.S. government and assumed the Nomad identity, he didn't have to "go bad" to pull it off. When Peter Parker created 4 different identities for the purpose of clearing his name, he didn't have to "go bad" to make it work for him. When Daredevil - using the Punisher's own weapon - shot the Punisher in the arm, he didn't see it as going bad. He was preventing an out-of-control vigilante from comitting a murder. Has there ever been a major character of either Marvel or DC Comics who has ever gone "bad"?

I have to agree with everything Yaw has posted thus far. Hudlin's Panther is magnificent. He is a flawed human, but not so flawed that he has reached to the point of insanity. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the Panther is a positive role model for young black readers of comicbooks. He is a work of fiction. But I believe it would be very depressing and destructive in a way if Hudlin had adopted the concept of allowing T'Challa to be portrayed as a "tragic hero" who despite his best efforts, was destined to lose "at every turn." Too many young, black urban youths see that act played out in real life. It's Tupac Shakur's "So Many Tears". It's James, Florida, J.J., Thelma and Michael Evans in the Chicago projects in an episode of "Good Times".

I'd hate to see T'Challa, the Black Panther portrayed as a "nut" who "went bad" and wasn't aware of the fact that he had gone bad. He is fine as he is.



I think we're not actually taking into account the WHOLE CONCEPT of this particular arc.This isn't the "Panther is a villain" arc,it's Panther's descent into darkness,his struggle,and his noble and epic,triumphant ascendance to a point higher and greater than ever before.How many characters have done this? Well,Frank Miller's Daredevil has done this...and remember just recently that DD became the Kingpin of Crime,and still didn't lose his essential goodness.Panther would not be doing things that he thinks are evil...he would essentially become a sort of "anti-hero." Who's the most famous example of this?  BATMAN. He's fought what he regarded as the bad guys with an unremitting,unmerciful intensity that resulted in the literal deaths of many "villains".The most recent example of this is TONY STARKS,who genuinely and honestly believes that his perspective is the CORRECT perspective,despite the massive internal conflict and agony it causes him.How does the recent IDENTITY CRISIS grab ya,wherein the very memories of villains and heroes were tampered with and changed by heroes? How heroic is THAT? I might refer you to the example that PRIEST himself gave,when CC humanized the deadly Magneto,and also had many heroes acting in decidedly unheroic fashion.Magneto's stance became understandable,his goals clear...we just differed with him in methodology,and our difference was NOT rooted in the fact that he had every understandable reason to react how he has to the incessant,unjustifiable genocide being practiced against mutants.That's why I used the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King analogy...Magneto was more Malcolm than Martin,and so would the Panther become.One of Panther's hallmarks was that at heart he was a pacifist,prefering the peaceful solution to the more combative solution.I recall a time when Professor X himself began to question and momentarily eschewed his pacifistic philosophy,and I remember back in the 80s a time when the XMEN stopped turning over "evil" mutants for imprisonment and eventual escape.I remember the "evil" mutants themselves taunting the XMEN about that...and being shocked outta their gourds when the XMEN decided to take matters into their own hands and end issues themselves.How about Wolverine's recent AGENT OF HYDRA/AGENT OF SHIELD saga as told by MARK MILLAR? Yes I know that Wolverine was killed and then brought back from the dead and reprogrammed,but the fact is that Wolverine ALREADY HAD THAT RED STREAK OF MURDER IN HIM...he'd been literally killing dozens of people for years and years and years...but nobody questions the essential "goodness" of Wolverine.Why? Because Wolverine struck down people whom we couldn't stand either,and he atoned for his transgressions to a certain extent.But what if a hero had the nerve to believe in something that we all know is wrong but he went out and fixed it? Not by incessant chatter which never seems to work,not by incessantly locking up bad guys who would escape and murder some more people...what if he went about and used that methodoloy across the board even with those of us whom support controversial policies like the war in Iraq and its inevitable expansion throughout the Middle East to countries we don't like...and we don't like them because they won't follow our policies.That decision has cost hundreds of innocents their lives and destabilized even more a region with millions of people whom haven't done a thing to us...innocents whose lives are irreparably harmed by our narrow minded decisions.

Remember that time in CIVIL WAR when Director Hill told Cap about the conversation that she had with one of her subordinates? They had just picked up the Green Goblin for the gazillionth time after he rampaged and murdered people,destroyed property and sewn terror...AGAIN...and the agent said to Director Hill:"When does this become Spider-Man's fault? I mean,he has had the Goblin by the throat a dozen times and more...and each time the Goblin uses the system and escapes and does this again.If Spider-Man has the ability to end this every time it happens,and each time he doesn't do it,the Goblin comes back and kills again...when does Spider-Man or one of these capes become responsible for NOT PERMANENTLY STOPPING THE GOBLIN?" That's not the conversation verbatim,but that's the gist of it. Well,imagine what happens when other countries,other people,take that stance with the USA for its worldwide dominance,its willful use of power to compel all other countries--or as many countries as it can--to kowtow to its will.You know what we get? A world wherein the USA's leadership is challenged,and that challenge gets translated to the citizens of the USA as direct threat to us because some European,Arabic,or Asian country doesn't like us. Never mind that US policy has caused international havoc for so long that it has built up a heavy karmic debt of dislike that will come back on this country,and nevermind that the US citizenry doesn't give a damn about anybody unless they're doing something TO us or FOR us.Most of the citizenry of this country is blithely ignorant,and takes no willful actions to alter that condition.

In short,Panther--even in the grip of a dementia brought on by the brain aneurysm that came about by being struck repeatedly by Daniel Rand's vaunted Iron Fist--would not join up with Red Skull.He wouldn't be down with HYDRA or THE DAWN OF THE WHITE LIGHT or DR. DOOM.he wouldn't be in a corner somewhere with THE HAND,going:"Mwahahahahaha!!" Nope...he'd do something like what he did during the conflict with the Jabari Clan and Queen Divine Justice.He'd stand against US and/or international policy that violated what he belives to be right.He'd be drawn into inevitable conflict with various heroes as well,whom would not understand why BP was doing what he was doing.And STORM--our beloved STORM--would be the only one to reach him,see the nobility still so evident in him,grasp the fact that he is dealing with nearly impossible pressures from within and without...and doing so masterfully.But he has sealed himself off from everyone and everything in the process,and her love would enable him to see that.And he--still being the noble soul that he always has been and even then still was--would redeem himself...and in the process lose the love of his life.Dizzying triumphs merged with torpedoing tragedy.He soars on the wings of gospel spirituality,even though those wings are held together by the blues.That's an epic story...and NOT a yarn wherein a good and noble man becomes mired in the despicable depths of villainy in the sense that many of us seem to see that word and understand that concept.He wouldn't be misled,as he is reacting in NEW WAYS to LONG STANDING BEHAVIOURS AND SITUATIONS...much of which are indeed unjust and unsavory.It's how HE REACTS TO THEM and most especially HOW EVERYONE ELSE REACTS TO HIM that has changed...

And that would've been one helluva story.Let's not forget that when Martin Luther King first came out,Bush Sr. or his dad called MLK "a radical and possibly Communist inspired." Says something about one's perspective,doesn't it?
I am a huge fan of panther but I actually think it would have been a great story to see him lose everything like he did and then become a villian. That's the best thing about Marvel, it shows the characters as real people and sometimes people go bad. It would have made sense to me because the panther would not have seen himself as a villian. It's not like he would run around New York robbing banks. That's why I liked Priest's panther more then Hudlin's panther, Hudlin's story shows T'challa perfect in every way ( not that I don't understand or enjoy the series, because I really do), Priest's showed him as having prefection and losing at every turn. It was like tragic hero status.

Much respect, Ed. But to have a character of T'Challa's history and stature "go bad" and become a villian would probably be one of the worst things that could happen to him. Ironically, I have a feeling that those anti-Hudlin/anti-"perfect, indomitable and always victorious" Black Panther non-fans probably would have loved seeing T'Challa descend to such an ignominious depth. When Captain America lost faith in a corrupt U.S. government and assumed the Nomad identity, he didn't have to "go bad" to pull it off. When Peter Parker created 4 different identities for the purpose of clearing his name, he didn't have to "go bad" to make it work for him. When Daredevil - using the Punisher's own weapon - shot the Punisher in the arm, he didn't see it as going bad. He was preventing an out-of-control vigilante from comitting a murder. Has there ever been a major character of either Marvel or DC Comics who has ever gone "bad"?


Thanks sin.

You know what that is the real question. Who are the major characters that have gone bad in Marvel or DC?

I'm really curious about this. On top of who went bad, what were the circumstances leading to the conversion? I know a hero going bad is a common motif you fin din superhero comics however also just as common is the fact thatt the hero went bad due to external factors (ie. mind-control, brainwashing, externally-induced insanity) as opposed to internal factors (i.e. personal decisions, natural loss of sanity).

I find it interesting that people are willing to accept these horrendous circumstances for the sake of reading a "good story" when other more popular heroes never reason equal treatment. Why must T'Challa be the "tragic hero?" Here I thought that being a member of the most advanced nation in the world would afford one some luxuries. I guess I was wrong. :-\
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Offline Yaw

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Re: What If? Priest continued writing Panther
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 12:32:26 pm »

I agree that at the point wherein the story stopped,TChalla HAD lost the chieftanship,he had a whole host of negatives to deal with,not to mention the inoperable brain anuerysm due to his throwdown with Iron Fist...but I disagree that we find TCHALLA victimized by dementia.

We see T'Challa victimized by dementia after his future counterpart is killed.  There is a reason his officer gives him a shot to the neck after he mutilates Queen Divine Justice.  In the future storyline Monica Lynne also give him a shot to the neck when he is older after seeing Faida dead.  I personally have to assume that these fits are more common than not if Monica Lynne can pull a needle out of nowhere to give T'Challa a shot to calm him down.

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If anything,I think his world class brilliance and nobility was displayed by his selection and manipulation of Kasper and al lthe forces around Kasper..which resulted in his resumption of the throne.I have no doubt that TCHALLA was manipulating circumstances from the background,and we wouldn't be aware of it until the interplay of other characters essential to the book brought this fact to light.

The Kasper storyline honestly makes little sense.  When Kasper comes around T'Challa has given power to the throne to the Wakandan Council.  HE is nowhere to be found.  IF anything dealing with KAsper redeems T'Challa and is not a tell-tale sign of his nobility, but maybe his brilliance.  It felt to me like grooming Kasper gave T'Challa the will to DO SOMETHING again.  PErsonally I found it sad that some n00b in NY gave T'Challa a will to be active when he has an entire nation of countrymen who need his guidance and leadership.


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We were seeing it already with his reintroduction to the book via Kasper,and his handling of Killmonger's attempt to corrupt Kasper.Yeah,I really liked Kasper,not only in his own right but also as a new set of eyes through which to view TChalla.Remember,a great deal of what was to come simply didn't get a chance to come off as PRIEST would have preferred it,and other issues of sale and office politics and the like had an enormous impact on the entire situation,becoming the catalyst that prompted Priest to introduce Kasper in the first place.That was a beautiful storyline..we get to see some of the  truly extraordinary things that set TChalla apart from all of the rest of us,and through the eyes of another exceptional human being,and that person is Kasper.

I'd be lyin gif I said I didn't like Kasper and the storyline.  I found it interesting.  however I found T'Challa utterly irrelevant.  It's funny because Priest said the same in a post.  He claimed that he hadn't written T'Challa since issue 49.  Therefore by his own admission T'Challa was nothing more than a cheap plot device in order to make way for a new Panther.

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I don't think that PRIEST's depiction of TCHALLA's descent into darkness would result in the destruction of the character or open the door to massive retcon and reshaping,as I'm sure that PRIEST himself rejected those possiblities so thoroughly that he wouldn't embark upon a story that would do either to BP.I think that PRIEST would have pulled off what he was aiming for,given sufficient time...as he would have with CAF,I am sure.

As far as opening the way for a huge retcon well inadvertently he did.  Hudlin's run is proof of this.  In one sense I hate that a good chunk of Panther's history can't have existed but on the otherhand I glad that is doesn't.  Alot of things in this run wouldn't be possible if Priest's run were to be continued directly.  Personally I liked Priest's run up until the early 30s.  After that, blah.

I do agree that Hudlin's Panther needs some more obstacles in his life but whatever, the series is still relatively new.  I mean we started off with a Wakanda invasion but since, the threats have been relatively minimal in the sense that he could not get involved and not face imminent danger ( ie. Wild kingdom, Civil War) although he maybe affected by repercussions of the conflicts in the future. Nevertheless I find the degree to which Priest wanted to effectively destroy T'Challa to be somewhat excessive and wholly unnecessary.  It almost feels as if he doesn't like the character and to be honest looking at his run I don't believe he does but that is another story.