Author Topic: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).  (Read 530647 times)

Offline Maxine Shaw

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1245 on: May 17, 2014, 05:13:11 pm »
If Ororo is being portrayed in a sleazy manner, all blame lies with the writers and the editors who okay the finished product.

I don't think she's sleazy; I think she's stupid. Big difference. But like you said, it's the writers that are doing this sh*t. Even if Storm had had a moment of weakness, Wolverine shouldn't have let her do it. He took advantage of her in a moment of weakness, you know? Wolverine might have pulled that with any other chick in the world, but not Storm. Good God, who thought that was a good idea?

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The idea of a heterosexual marriage between an African man and African woman is anathema to many of them and to be frank, anyone who thinks that it's only white readers on this hate trip, is in for a rude awakening.

True, true. They ID her babydaddy yet?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 05:17:35 pm by Maxine Shaw »
She wanted attention and that's what she got. - more words of wisdom from HEF's favorite rape apologist TripleX

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1246 on: May 17, 2014, 05:17:54 pm »
The way Storm has been portrayed recently is not who she is at all. She was NEVER quick to fall in love and she was always deep thinking and reflective before she made big decisions. Prior to her marriage with Black Panther, I can't recall her kissing 7 times on panel in all of her existence. She may have kissed that many times, but I can't think of it off hand. Its as if Marvel is getting their female elemental characters mixed up. Storm is not Crystal of the Inhumans. Crystal REALLY gets around while Storm has always been very guarded when it comes to coming out of her emotional shell and giving her heart to somebody.


Well, as portrayed on page (over a period of time and by three seperate authors) Ororo's falling in love with T'Challa (prior to their marriage later on down the line) wasn't some fly by night affair.

Chris Claremont introduced the concept of a pre-marriage relatuionship between the two characters bac in the early 1980's which was further revisited and expanded upon by Christopher J. Priest during his tenure as Black Panther scribe in the late 1990's before finally culminating in the courtship and marriage of the two characters by Reginald Hudlin in the mid 2000's.

So even though it seemed like a quick/rushed development under Mr Hudlin's pen, it was merely a logical progression of something that had been hinted on by Chris Claremont in the 80's.

Mr Hudlin had Ororo properly calling out T'Challa for his brusque behaviour pre-marriage so it's not as if Hudlin had her falling head over heels with T'Challa without first giving him a right telling off for his leaving her in the days of their youth when he returned to Wakanda to take up his royal duties.





Storm is the type of character who finds fulfillment in just being who she is. She's never really needed a man to be happy. She was always portrayed as this untouchable, unreachable goddess when it came to dating and romance. Even from her early years on the X-Men, all of the other characters had romantic relationships: Colossus (with Kitty Pryde), Cyclops (with Jean Grey, Lee Forrester and Madelyne Pryor), Wolverine (with Yuriko...and longed for Jean Grey since day one), Nightcrawler (with Amanda Sefton), yet Storm was single. It was not until she lost her powers that she finally permitted herself to be vulnerable enough to have a relationship. That man, of course, was Forge. Prior to this, she shared a kiss once only with Arkon, ruler of Polemachus. After losing her powers, she became more "human" and walked like "ordinary folk." The issue she got her powers back (circa Uncanny 224), one her of fears was once more taking on the persona of the unreachable goddess. Of course, in many ways, she did and didn't fall in love again after that. (While Claremont saw the "Fall of the Mutants" story arc as being the end of her relationship with Forge, years later, when Lobdell came on board as the X-writer, he had Forge propose to her only to retract his offer before she could answer out of fear of her turning him down.)


And herein lies the revelation.

Out of all the X-Men why was Ororo portrayed as being the only one who was an "untouchable and unreachable Goddess" when she was neither a "goddess" or unreachably untouchable unless the suitor in question was Doom, Arkon or Dracula all monarchs of some sort or the other?

One would have thought that a much longer lived character such as Wolverine would have fitted the mold of unreachably untouchable a lot more realistically than Ororo just based off of his unnatural longevity but as we all know, Logan has been through a bevy of veritable bed partners all of whom he's professed to love nwithout being able to commit to any of them properly for any reasonable amount of time and he's also fathere hundreds of illegitimate bastard children along the way.

The fact that he's gone on to kill everyone of his offspring with his own hands makes him a monster in every sense of the word but one who the supposedly noble and righteous Storm was portrayed as having no qualms about jumping into bed with and shedding hot tears over when he left her high and dry. (You know, the type of tears she was never shown shedding over the end of her marriage to a man whose boots an animal like Wolverine is not fit to even lick)






Ororo was portrayed as being perrenialy "single" because Claremont couldn't be bothered to actually give her a love interest within the X-Men or even outside of that group for much the same reasons as is the case today.

There were no Black X-men for her to be paired up with because Claremont and Co never bothered to create any and even when Claremont even hinted at a relationship between Ororo and T'Challa, he closed it off with this inately ridiculous reasoning....



Who in the hell closes off a potential story opportunity in such an inexplicably stupid manner?

For her to be with someone, it would mean he must be somebody really special to her and someone who touches her on an emotional level that is very profound to bring her out of her emotional shell. Wolverine COULD have been that guy, but I will NEVER support a Storm/Wolverine pairing even without this bad episode I have recently learned of through scans on this thread. This is a guy who has always pined after Jean Grey. He would only date Storm IF Jean was totally unavailable to him. Its not fair to Storm to make her somebody's second pick. She needs to be with a man who holds her as his FIRST pick.


There is nothing in Wolverine's history as a 616 MU character that qualifies him as being the sort of individual to have been capable of bringing Ororo out of her emotional shell so I find your statement to this effect somewhat puzzling.

As you yourself have pointed out, Logan was and will always have Jean Grey as his one, true love which automatically relegates Ororo and any other woman Logan sleeps with to jump off status by default.

Bottom line, for Storm to be out there slapping lips so quickly with these guys is TOTALLY out-of-character for her and shows a lack of understanding of who she is by the writers. What would have been IN-CHARACTER for Storm would have been for her to go back into her emotional shell AFTER the marriage was ended and to once more assume the persona of the "unreachable goddess." Of course, during this time, she would be hurt emotionally from the way things turned out with T'challa, but she would have tried to hide it from the team. What would have been good writing and true to their history would have been if Logan, sensing Storm's inner turmoil, approached Ororo about her feelings and asked her, "Do you want to talk about it?" Storm would have responded with something like, "Its something I need to deal with, my friend, but I will be fine." She probably would have made some kind of analogy with an experience she had dealing with lions on the Serengeti Plains back when she was powerless and went back to her native land appropriate to what she's going through.  Logan would have thought to himself in thought bubbles, "'Ro's tough, she'll pull through. If she ever needs a shoulder to lean on or a listening ear, I'll be there for her. She knows that." Their friendship is so close that while those words would be in thought bubbles for our sakes as readers, they would not have needed to be spoken aloud by Wolverine as their bond of friendship is so strong that she would automatically know this. This is the way the Storm/Wolverine thing should have played out AFTER the marriage, not by her rebounding hard and getting with him.


What would have been more in character for Ororo, would have been for her to have taken some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX and actually sit down to have a heart-to-heart adult discussion with T'Challa (once tempers had cooled) to discuss how their relationship could be rekindled in a manner similar to what transpired between Sue and Reed Richards in the aftermath of the Marvel Civil War but since one of the prime objectives of AvX was to split T'Challa and Ororo up, such an adult resolution between the two characters was never on the cards.

Having Ororo jump into bed so willingly with Wolverine was a deliberate act on the part of the X-writer concerned (Jason Aaron) to permanently cement the rift between T'Challa and Ororo as well as spite Black Panther enthusiasts who had been rooting for the couple since the inception of their relationship.







As you well know, there are many X-readers (at least those actively posting on CBR) who celebrate (to current date) all of the events that took place during AvX from the X-Men coming onto Wakandan soil without invite to Ororo physically assaulting T'Challa before Namor delivered the coup de grace with his genocidal flooding of T'Challa and Shuri's homeland






But it's pretty much obvious that Marvel Editorial are now beginning to realize just how divisive their mandated annulment of Ororo and T'Challa's union has become which is why we're now getting to see stuff like this....



with Ororo actually acknowledging Kymera as her daughter just prior to the launch of Storms proposed solo outing where her adventures will have the sort of world spanning scope that Reginald Hudlin envisioned for her within the Black Panther solo book that many X-fans never read but were so quick to criticize.









And with Jason Aaron's Original Sin event having started, it's worth noting how Reginald Hudlin had the Watcher being an integral part of the T'Challa and Ororo's marriage as evidenced below...




This is just one of the viable story opportunities that the X-Office squandered in their quest to relegate Ororo to the bcak of the proverbial bus whilst disrespecting fans of the marriage in general.

Reginald Hudlin wrote Ororo with the kind of respect that not one single writer pre, during and post AvX ever did inckuding Claremont because he had her reconciled to her ethnic heritage as an African as well as her phsically empowered status as a mutant without the type of conflict of interest that plagues the mutants in practically all of the X-books.




Mr Hudlin gave Ororo a legitimate voice on the political grand stage that eclipses everything going on in the X-books as far as the "Schism" is concerned so it's for this (amongst many other reasons) that I have ZERO respect for any X-writers past, present and for the forseeable future.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1247 on: May 17, 2014, 05:23:33 pm »
If Ororo is being portrayed in a sleazy manner, all blame lies with the writers and the editors who okay the finished product.

I don't think she's sleazy; I think she's stupid. Big difference. But like you said, it's the writers that are doing this sh*t. Even if Storm had had a moment of weakness, Wolverine shouldn't have let her do it. He took advantage of her in a moment of weakness, you know? Wolverine might have pulled that with any other chick in the world, but not Storm. Good God, who thought that was a good idea?

Quote
The idea of a heterosexual marriage between an African man and African woman is anathema to many of them and to be frank, anyone who thinks that it's only white readers on this hate trip, is in for a rude awakening.

True, true. They ID her babydaddy yet?

Definitely agreeing with you on the Ororo not being sleazy tip. As I said previously, all blame lies with the the writers and Nick Lowe who as the previous overall editor for the X-Office allowed the story in the first place.

As for who Kymera's father is, no one's bothered to reveal that as of yet.

Maybe it will be broached in Storm's proposed solo series or even Original Sin.

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1248 on: May 17, 2014, 05:45:13 pm »
Maybe it will be broached in Storm's proposed solo series...




Dude, you're on a roll and I agree with most of your assessment on the decline of Storm's character but...

Please don't help promote that BS title...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 05:55:00 pm by Battle »

Offline Maxine Shaw

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1249 on: May 17, 2014, 05:49:09 pm »
Well, as portrayed on page (over a period of time and by three seperate authors) Ororo's falling in love with T'Challa (prior to their marriage later on down the line) wasn't some fly by night affair.

Storm told BP under Priest that there could come a day when he spoke her name and she would never leave his side. That's all. He spoke her name.  It went down exactly the way it was supposed to.
She wanted attention and that's what she got. - more words of wisdom from HEF's favorite rape apologist TripleX

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1250 on: May 17, 2014, 06:07:39 pm »
Maybe it will be broached in Storm's proposed solo series...




Dude, you're on a roll and I agree with most of your assessment on the decline of Storm's character but...

Please don't help promote that BS title...

Bro, I won't even front.

If the Storm solo actually explores Ororo's character in a manner that genuinely progresses her importance to the 616 MU then I'll celebrate that.

But if on the otherhand it turns out to be another in the long line of X-office spawned assassination runs on T'Challa and Wakanda then Pak will get every ounce of ire that all haters that came before him.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1251 on: May 17, 2014, 06:09:57 pm »
Well, as portrayed on page (over a period of time and by three seperate authors) Ororo's falling in love with T'Challa (prior to their marriage later on down the line) wasn't some fly by night affair.

Storm told BP under Priest that there could come a day when he spoke her name and she would never leave his side. That's all. He spoke her name.  It went down exactly the way it was supposed to.

That single quote from Priest's BP was just so solid which made Marvel's annulment of the eventual marriage between the characters all the more disgraceful and disrespectful of Mr Hudlin's contributions to the BP/Storm mythos.

Offline Rutog98

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1252 on: May 17, 2014, 06:20:06 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field. The two of them should have gotten to know each other as ADULTS better over the period of at least a year. The whole business about EJD butchering Storm's character his "Storm" mini stands as proof of that. To accept that mini as part of a build up to an Ororo/T'challa marriage isn't going to fly as the only real thing it accomplished was devaluing Storm's character. It alienated Storm's fanbase...and with good reason. It only served to turn people who really know and love the character, Ororo, against the marriage.  As far as I'm concerned, that was an alternate reality Storm EJD wrote there.

2) Storm was very much the unreachable goddess. Its not her fault if Dr. Doom, Dracula and Loki were in awe of her and wanted her for themselves as a lover. As you can see, she didn't end up with either of them. In fact, she told Loki off. You can't fault those men for having good taste in women.  ;D

3) I recall John Byrne stating on a message board (IIRC) or an interview that as far as he was concerned, Storm's and BP
s relationship ended as children. He stated that Storm was too good of a character to be in a relationship with BP, though he felt they could be friends. I vaguely remember this. That may be why nothing was explored further. That said, I'm going to defend Claremont, here. When he came on board to write the X-Men, the second generation team was already put together. He did not write Giant-Sized X-Men #1. It was an international team of mutants, so they had one from Africa, one from Ireland, one from Germany, and one from Canada with Cyclops leading the team. During his run on X-Treme X-Men, Claremont took over the writing of Bishop. I remember him stating on a message board that he felt Bishop could join the ranks of the premier X-Men like Storm and Wolverine with the right development. He sought to move Bishop in that direction. He made him like a cop, boosted his telepathic defenses to such an extent that his mental defenses were second only to Storm's and Sage's on the team. He also gave Bishop a power boost by adding on new dimensions to Bishop's powers. Originally, Bishop could only absorb energy and throw it back at you as an energy blast. When CC got ahold of him, he enabled Bishop to use the energy to increase his physical strength, stamina and reaction speed. He also tried to establish Bishop as being one of the most formidable X-Men/mutants around. He established that since Bishop was from the future, he's had the opportunity to study the mutants in the present to learn of their battle strengths and weaknesses and to be able to take advantage of those weaknesses to use against them in battle. Claremont tends to write women and characters of color as premier characters. Characters of color were never just tokens under CC's pen.

4) It was not that CC could not be bothered by giving Storm a relationship interest that stopped him from giving her a BF for years, it was just a part of her character. Not only was she very much the unreachable goddess, this is a woman who also kept her emotions in check for fear of affecting weather patterns as they echo her emotions. The whole unreachable goddess thing played hand-in-hand with her keeping her emotions on a tight leash for fear of causing damage. It is my assertion that keeping her single played on that dynamic.

Salustrade: What would have been more in character for Ororo, would have been for her to have taken some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX and actually sit down to have a heart-to-heart adult discussion with T'Challa (once tempers had cooled) to discuss how their relationship could be rekindled in a manner similar to what transpired between Sue and Reed Richards in the aftermath of the Marvel Civil War but since one of the prime objectives of AvX was to split T'Challa and Ororo up, such an adult resolution between the two characters was never on the cards.

Me:

I agree that it would have been both in-character AND mature for both Storm and Black Panther to take some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX, however, keeping the two as a married couple would have been a BAD idea. It alienated too much of the readership. As I've stated time and again, too much damage was done to Storm's character at the beginning of the whole ordeal (going all the way back to that HORRIBLE mini) to prop up BP and the marriage thing that sent her fanbase running for the hills. They were never going to come back and they were very loudmouth about their resentment of the union. I think the two characters should have remained good friends, though. Also, I feel the break up happened in a way that was unseemly and unbefitting of either character. It was beneath the dignity of both characters.
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Rutog98

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1253 on: May 17, 2014, 06:24:00 pm »
Well, as portrayed on page (over a period of time and by three seperate authors) Ororo's falling in love with T'Challa (prior to their marriage later on down the line) wasn't some fly by night affair.

Storm told BP under Priest that there could come a day when he spoke her name and she would never leave his side. That's all. He spoke her name.  It went down exactly the way it was supposed to.

What should have happened is there should have been about a year's worth of storytelling of Storm and T'challa sharing time together in a 12 issue maxi series AS ADULTS instead of that EJD story. Just the two of them. No other X-Men, no other Avengers. What Priest did in the story you guys are referencing is what should have been help up as the model for the maxi. At the end of the maxi, T'challa could have proposed to Storm and it would have felt very natural to the readership and everyone.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 06:39:22 pm by Rutog98 »
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1254 on: May 17, 2014, 06:25:42 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field.







I stopped reading right there.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1255 on: May 17, 2014, 06:32:20 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field.







I stopped reading right there.


Basically.

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1256 on: May 17, 2014, 06:45:52 pm »
Salustrade has pointed out, as others have numerous times, shown tangible if not veritable evidence where the inspiration for the T'Challa & Ororo romance came from.   

Readers from the old school here at HEF, such as myself, have read and seen the T'Challa & Ororo romance building up for over 30 years! 

The only relevant X-Men stories is really the Chris Claremont/john byrne run between 1977 - 1981.  Everything else after that is an absolute joke. 

The only relevant Black Panther stories are really the ones where he makes an appearance in every MARVEL story since Fantastic Four.



Kids today... *sigh*

Offline Rutog98

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1257 on: May 17, 2014, 06:47:42 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field.







I stopped reading right there.


Basically.


You guys are being unreasonable. Storm and T'challa had not spent ANY significant time together since they were CHILDREN of about 12. (Storm would have been 12 at around that time.) That is NOT a realistic foundation to build a marriage off of. While I will NEVER advocate a romantic relationship between Storm and Wolverine, one thing advocates of a relationship between the two can claim is that Ororo and Logan have known each other for a very long time. They know each other very well and have a profound friendship upon which to build a relationship. That said, Storm doesn't need to be with a man who would really rather be with another woman, ergo, she shouldn't be with Wolverine in that capacity.

The marriage WAS rushed.
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Rutog98

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1258 on: May 17, 2014, 06:53:33 pm »
Salustrade has pointed out, as others have numerous times, shown tangible if not veritable evidence where the inspiration for the T'Challa & Ororo romance came from.   

Readers from the old school here at HEF, such as myself, have read and seen the T'Challa & Ororo romance building up for over 30 years! 

The only relevant X-Men stories is really the Chris Claremont/john byrne run between 1977 - 1981.  Everything else after that is an absolute joke. 

The only relevant Black Panther stories are really the ones where he makes an appearance in every MARVEL story since Fantastic Four.



Kids today... *sigh*


You have not seen a 30 year build up for a marriage between Storm and Black Panther. That's going WAY too far. The only thing you have seen is a hint here and there was the POTENTIAL for a solid friendship between the two characters. In other words, it merely opens the realm of possibility of having the two characters from two different books spending some time together to see what develops from there.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 06:59:41 pm by Rutog98 »
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1259 on: May 17, 2014, 07:10:36 pm »
Salustrade has pointed out, as others have numerous times, shown tangible if not veritable evidence where the inspiration for the T'Challa & Ororo romance came from.   

Readers from the old school here at HEF, such as myself, have read and seen the T'Challa & Ororo romance building up for over 30 years! 

The only relevant X-Men stories is really the Chris Claremont/john byrne run between 1977 - 1981.  Everything else after that is an absolute joke. 

The only relevant Black Panther stories are really the ones where he makes an appearance in every MARVEL story since Fantastic Four.



Kids today... *sigh*


You have not seen a 30 year build up for a marriage between Storm and Black Panther. That's going WAY too far. The only thing you have seen is a hint here and there was the POTENTIAL for a solid friendship between the two characters. In other words, it merely opens the realm of possibility of having the two characters from two different books spending some time together to see what develops from there.







Do not presume what I have seen and what I have not.

30+ years ago is exactly what all the X-Men movies have gleaned their stories from, so what're talkin' about? ?

It would be reasonable to assume that the T'Challa & Storm romance follows the same timeline where the idea came from.