Author Topic: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).  (Read 326534 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #855 on: October 04, 2013, 11:16:18 pm »
Quote
supreme illuminati:
Before I go any further? Let me acknowledge that point regarding Storm with Chris Claremont at the peak of his powers vs Storm in LITTLE GREEN MEN. Which actually makes my point further and more powerfully and more clearly. You travelled back in time some 28 years to produce a run...A RUN, NOT AN ARC...that rivals or surpasses what Storm did under RH in only one arc, just a few years ago. You know what that means they've been doing to Ororo over there in the X-Office? In a phrase: She's been screwed.

And Afro-Storm is far more who Ororo actually is by a long shot than Mohawk Storm. But that's just a matter of opinion...frocked by an affinity with the Black experience that Mohawk Storm and much of the dialogue in the X-Books strongly attempts to move Ororo away from. A Black African woman who is somehow not African or Black in X-Men books; but a quiltwork of humanity. Guess what? Being Black MEANS YOU'RE THE BLUEPRINT FOR ALL OTHER HUMANS, according to the most rigorous science; so asserting her Blackness simultaneously asserts her affinity with and for humanity. I think both Afro and Mohawk Storm are parts of Storm's complex personality, but most of the writers and most of the readers of Storm have been White. They relate to Mohawk Storm and are threatened by Afro Storm due to their ignorance and complete lack of affinity with the Black experience. They don't connect to the Blackness of Storm and the cultural links that [ especially given that time period ] would have made Afro Storm far far faaarrrr more realistic--and no less regal, no less poised, no less beautiful. It's impossible for Afro Storm to be wallpaper and wall flower and NEVER NEVER could she be a Logan jump-off. Afro-Storm is far more representative of a more dominant closer to the surface Storm than Wild Storm/Mohawk Storm is.

As for earthquakes and sleet/rainstorms in intestines? These and similar feats have been established for Storm for roundabout 20 years. Since just before and during THE ULTIMATE line's arrival. rutog could fill you in on that. We have an epic thread started by Rutog regarding how incredible Storm really is. There are real gems in there...check it out.

As for the comment of mine being dreamworks?  Yep. Of course what I've said is dreamworks, friend. Comics as a whole is dreamworks. Important dreamworks but...dreamworks still.

With that being said? Reflect upon the mere presence of STORM if she's in the hands of a strong writer who doesn't want to make her the center of say the N.A. battle vs Thanos Armies. Right away, we have someone who can and would draw the attention of Supergiant and/or Midnight. Right away we have someone with the power and skill set to shine in a battle of this magnitude, and bring more attention to the book.

I don't think that Storm would've been a maximally background character due to her position as a Queen, and X-Man, and the fact that she is Storm. Plus. How many ladies have you seen in The Illuminati? Yeah...me neither. So while I don't see her being an Illuminati, I DO see her playing a stronger role than she has  played of late in the X-Men...and doing it in a book that is more important to Marvel to boot. Remember, she's played a strong role in TChalla's life since they were children, before he was a King...and she did this because she is Storm. I absolutely disagree that even as Queen of Wakanda she would've done anything as a marital appendage of TChalla's. She became Queen because of who she is. TPG judged Storm worthy of the title of Queen because of who she is. She wouldn't go out on the battlefield, or the political arena, wave her scepter and that's that. Nope. Every victory won, every battle engaged, every problem solved, every bit of regality she effortlessly exudes, every drop of passion shown, every action she takes is because she is Ororo first. Ororo has always been a queen; as Queen of Wakanda? She would ostentatiously officially put the stamp on who she always has been; the incarnation of mystic legacy and life energy. Beautiful Black woman of amazing intellect, spirituality, strength, serenity, warriorship, passion. The love of TChalla's life. African Queen. And as Queen of Wakanda? She would not only be the most important mutant on Earth but she would also be an indispensable asset in any Wakandan conflict.

For the record? I despise the CC version of how Ororo and TChalla met. I absolutely love the EJD version. EJD, imo, was far far more realistic, and more respectful of both the legend, legacy and reality of Wakanda--which by far would be the most powerful legend and greatest and most respected, revered country in Africa; most especially by other Africans--as well as respectful and more realistic regarding TChalla and Ororo. And the Bull and everyone else, too. But that is merely my opinion on the matter. I am not attempting to belittle your position at all. I respect your position; I merely disagree.

And yes the spotlight and crux of NA's Wakandan actions would be on TChalla--even though Black Bolt seems poised to leapfrog passed TChalla in the book's importance. But Storm would definitely be more in the forefront than Medusa currently is [ I expect Medusa's role to exponentially increase in importance and whatnot over the next few months and Spring of 2014 ].

Well stated supreme illuminati. The bolden I particularly feel stand out. The issue of hair and how it relates to Afrakan people (especially Afrakan women) has been a cultural concern for far too long... as such I shall not go into it here. I definitely agree with your point on Afro vs Mohawk though.

In my imaginings Tchalla would have most certainly selected women for the Illuminati. I too liked the EJD mini on Storm's beginnings.

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Offline 4sake

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #856 on: October 06, 2013, 08:14:27 am »
The problem with this argument is that when Hudlin and Mcduffie was writing her she was literally a costar. It is not our problem that the rest of Marvel didnt want to write her like that.

The argument I made has nothing to do with what Hudlin or McDuffie wrote, I was pointing out the presumed premise of some posters I see on here that if she had continued to be married to BP, she would have been used in NA or in Infinity or Avengers prominently or at all.  And it most likely would not have been the case since logically she would not have fit in the Illuminati.  Its also not like Sue Storm is there with Reed nor is Medusa that involved at all.   I also dont think they would have used her in Uncanny Avengers or regular Avengers simply because she remained married to T'Challa.

The other part of my point was that even if that were the case, would it have been respectful to her character that she got in these groups based on the fact that she is married to Panther and not on her own credentials?that wouldnt jibe with the somewhat strong pseudo feminist stance that the Xwomen have portrayed over the years and that xfans value.  Its an interesting dynamic to look at though...

But we already know that Both JH & RR are on record saying that she would've been in both UA (in the main cast) & NA (as supporting character), but is not because she been used in to many other books/other had ''plans for here in WATX (following behind Logan, Kitty & etc) & UF (support Yellowface-locke).. JH & RR (who I think sucks half the time).. NA & UA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WATX & UF.

Is there a link for them saying that?  I'd like to see it.  I totally think Hickman would have used her as a supporting character in NA the same way Medusa is but that doesnt mean it would have been anything prominent nor would she have been Illuminati like some have speculated.  She would have been just that: a supporting character there for Panther as a part of his world.  Fans arguably would have rather see her lead an X team (like she's doing in adjectiveless Xmen, you forgot to mention her in Brian Wood's book) and in Uncanny Xforce.  And did you seriously just refer to Psylocke as "yellowface-locke?"  In any case, whats wrong with her supporting her friend and sister Xman?  I agree that I dont think she should be in Wolverine and the Xmen though.  I dont even think that book should exist.

Uncanny Avengers is interesting that Remender said that...did he want her instead of Thor?  The Team he currently has and the stories he's making i dont see Storm fitting in but who knows.  That would have been an interesting choice but with the make up of that team that probably would not have had anything to do with her being married to T'challa so they could have done it regardless, which is a good thing in a way.

Yes I did cause  that just what she is a white woman in yellow-face..
 
I didnt forget to mention X-men & for that matter All New X-Men.. I didnt mention them because she was going to be in those book regardless & what else going on..

ANX =  Logan team of The ''main'' X-Men written by X-book lead writer.. But that book is mostly/to only about Kitty, Jean/05, Beast, Logan & to a lesser level Iceman & Storm (who do petty much nothing into other stand around/say a few lines that aren't important in the long run..

X-Men = Top x-women all in a book together, Jubs finally retuning to the X-Men (& not written sucky)/start of a big push by the x-office), with Rachel petty much place holding for Jean/getting written non-sucky before they get rid of her again, with O, Kitty, Rogue,  Monet (soon to be) Yellowface-lock, & Wood fav x-kids as support.. O has no on going story in that book other then arguing Rachel & Wood trying save face with actually showing O as headmistress of Logan school (logan's school really marvel) because both JA & BMB have done a sucky job of showing her doing it in their books both which are more important in the meting-pot of the x-world the Woods (Which why they both have two books & he has 1)..

So being in X-men or ANX is not what stop her from being in NA or UA it was JA (& other less x-writers who have followed his lead) & WATX (which was the lead X-book at the time of AVX with him being the Lead writer in the x-office.. He # 2 now with BMB being their now)..

She supporting character in both Yellowface-lock book UXF & Logan's WATX both which she written badly imo.. So it would be better for her to a supporting character in NA to T'Challa where she would have been written well/good..

Supporting character in marvel top book (NA) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spporting character in now the at best 3rd/4th important x-book (WATX) & the  maybe at best the 6 or 7 important x-book Uncanny X-Force..

Their nothing wrong O supporting her friend (other then the fact I think yellowface-lock is a horrible charterer being a white woman in yellow face in all) just like their should be nothing wrong her supporting T'Challa (but for alot of ppl their is) & just like their nothing wrong with her supporting her other friends Jubilee & Kitty .. The problem is the x-office after saying they have these big plans for her & saying her being married prevented them from doing said plans & all their being plans amount to is her helping & supporting others (which she could have done married to T'Challa).. The only plans they show her doing that she couldnt do while being married is dating Logan & thats not a big plan or a push at all..

The problem is why won't x-office let her be the lead in a x-book (something else she couldn't have done while married to T'Challa).. why must she only support only x-characters in their books.. Why could Amazing X-Men or X-men Legacy or Astonishing X-Men been giving to her as the lead character.. Why is that marvel wouln't let Wood go with his Mutantes Sans Frontières idea for O, but approve of Aaron Idea of Storm being Logan gf, headmistress of Logan School & leader of one of Logan's teams (another thing is also could do while married since that the excuse that use alot)..

Also I'll find the links & post them..
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #857 on: October 14, 2013, 08:28:29 am »
OK, this is one of the best cosplay Storms I have seen.  She is the last one.  You made need to go to the second page.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/12/showbiz/gallery/costumes-of-nyc-comic-con/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

Offline A.Curry

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #858 on: October 14, 2013, 09:26:58 am »
supreme illuminati,

all that being said, its still mostly dreamworks...you're mostly creating scenes about what "could" have been done with Storm or Queen Ororo or what you would like to see and not speaking of what was done or most likely would have been done.  "See Wakanda and Die" was a great story and a good example to pull from.  But just because Hudlin (and Aaron in that one story) used her in various and prominent ways in his Panther Book still doesnt mean she wouldve been a part of all that is happening with Infinity now in any prominent way.  And even if she was, it still would have been not on her own credentials but on just being married to Panther.  Everything she would have gotten or did get, being Queen, being in the Avengers, being involved with Infinity, even the wish or presumption by some posters of her being in the Illuminati (which would have made no sense, as Storm, if one were to remain consistent with her character, would never approve of the group, and the awkwardness created by having a married couple in it would be obvious) would be because of being married to Panther.  In this she would always be second to him no matter what she did because it would all be because of him.

But I maintain that its presumptious to think she would have been in the Illuminati or an Avenger or involved in Infinity that much if they were still married.  Definitely she would have been seen helping to defend Wakanda when Black Dwarf attacked but the spotlight and crux of it still would be T'Challa.

Now, thats not to say that is necessarily a bad thing, but to some readers Storm deserves greatness on her own and not because she married the king of Wakanda.  I personally have always liked their relationship from back when Chris Claremont first wrote that small back up story, though I do dislike Dickey's re-telling of it and felt Jerome Dickey did a small disservice to Ororo with how he changed their initial meeting.  I didnt even mind the marriage though it was surprising but felt that in some ways it could have been handled better.

By the by, Im pretty sure Storm cant create earthquakes.  That's geological manipulation not weather. And I dont think her powers work in the way of disrupting the electricity in someone's brain or creating sleet storms in their intestines.  But maybe an instance of those happened that I dont know about?  Always room for error.

I also have to disagree that she did more in "Little Green Men" (a story that, despite all of the many great things Mr. Hudlin has produced, I disliked) than literally everthing combined than she's done under everybody else combined.  It's been a long time since he wrote an X-book, but Storm's initial greatness was definitely achieved under Chris Claremont, who had her involved in and do many great things for a number of many years.  That can't be ignored even with the arguably lackluster things she may be involved with now in the x-books.

Hah, and Afro-Storm with the Black Panther Party look and pose was a cool looking novelty concept no doubt, but not something I would like to see as a look for her in the actual comics.  Its just not her.

Before I go any further? Let me acknowledge that point regarding Storm with Chris Claremont at the peak of his powers vs Storm in LITTLE GREEN MEN. Which actually makes my point further and more powerfully and more clearly. You travelled back in time some 28 years to produce a run...A RUN, NOT AN ARC...that rivals or surpasses what Storm did under RH in only one arc, just a few years ago. You know what that means they've been doing to Ororo over there in the X-Office? In a phrase: She's been screwed.

And Afro-Storm is far more who Ororo actually is by a long shot than Mohawk Storm. But that's just a matter of opinion...frocked by an affinity with the Black experience that Mohawk Storm and much of the dialogue in the X-Books strongly attempts to move Ororo away from. A Black African woman who is somehow not African or Black in X-Men books; but a quiltwork of humanity. Guess what? Being Black MEANS YOU'RE THE BLUEPRINT FOR ALL OTHER HUMANS, according to the most rigorous science; so asserting her Blackness simultaneously asserts her affinity with and for humanity. I think both Afro and Mohawk Storm are parts of Storm's complex personality, but most of the writers and most of the readers of Storm have been White. They relate to Mohawk Storm and are threatened by Afro Storm due to their ignorance and complete lack of affinity with the Black experience. They don't connect to the Blackness of Storm and the cultural links that [ especially given that time period ] would have made Afro Storm far far faaarrrr more realistic--and no less regal, no less poised, no less beautiful. It's impossible for Afro Storm to be wallpaper and wall flower and NEVER NEVER could she be a Logan jump-off. Afro-Storm is far more representative of a more dominant closer to the surface Storm than Wild Storm/Mohawk Storm is.

As for earthquakes and sleet/rainstorms in intestines? These and similar feats have been established for Storm for roundabout 20 years. Since just before and during THE ULTIMATE line's arrival. rutog could fill you in on that. We have an epic thread started by Rutog regarding how incredible Storm really is. There are real gems in there...check it out.

As for the comment of mine being dreamworks?  Yep. Of course what I've said is dreamworks, friend. Comics as a whole is dreamworks. Important dreamworks but...dreamworks still.

With that being said? Reflect upon the mere presence of STORM if she's in the hands of a strong writer who doesn't want to make her the center of say the N.A. battle vs Thanos Armies. Right away, we have someone who can and would draw the attention of Supergiant and/or Midnight. Right away we have someone with the power and skill set to shine in a battle of this magnitude, and bring more attention to the book.

I don't think that Storm would've been a maximally background character due to her position as a Queen, and X-Man, and the fact that she is Storm. Plus. How many ladies have you seen in The Illuminati? Yeah...me neither. So while I don't see her being an Illuminati, I DO see her playing a stronger role than she has  played of late in the X-Men...and doing it in a book that is more important to Marvel to boot. Remember, she's played a strong role in TChalla's life since they were children, before he was a King...and she did this because she is Storm. I absolutely disagree that even as Queen of Wakanda she would've done anything as a marital appendage of TChalla's. She became Queen because of who she is. TPG judged Storm worthy of the title of Queen because of who she is. She wouldn't go out on the battlefield, or the political arena, wave her scepter and that's that. Nope. Every victory won, every battle engaged, every problem solved, every bit of regality she effortlessly exudes, every drop of passion shown, every action she takes is because she is Ororo first. Ororo has always been a queen; as Queen of Wakanda? She would ostentatiously officially put the stamp on who she always has been; the incarnation of mystic legacy and life energy. Beautiful Black woman of amazing intellect, spirituality, strength, serenity, warriorship, passion. The love of TChalla's life. African Queen. And as Queen of Wakanda? She would not only be the most important mutant on Earth but she would also be an indispensable asset in any Wakandan conflict.

For the record? I despise the CC version of how Ororo and TChalla met. I absolutely love the EJD version. EJD, imo, was far far more realistic, and more respectful of both the legend, legacy and reality of Wakanda--which by far would be the most powerful legend and greatest and most respected, revered country in Africa; most especially by other Africans--as well as respectful and more realistic regarding TChalla and Ororo. And the Bull and everyone else, too. But that is merely my opinion on the matter. I am not attempting to belittle your position at all. I respect your position; I merely disagree.

And yes the spotlight and crux of NA's Wakandan actions would be on TChalla--even though Black Bolt seems poised to leapfrog passed TChalla in the book's importance. But Storm would definitely be more in the forefront than Medusa currently is [ I expect Medusa's role to exponentially increase in importance and whatnot over the next few months and Spring of 2014 ].


Sorry for responding to this so late...been busy.

supreme you make SOME good points but some definitely built on personal bias, especially where you are saying that "Afro-Storm" is Storm's true self.  You say it is opinion and it most definitely is especially since the only person that can say who their true self is the person in question.  It would be the height of arrogance and condescension for anyone to factually tell someone who their true self is.  In terms of a black comic book character it gets a bit more erroneous since they are fictional, but in Storm's case as in any character's case one would have to look at how they have been definitively portrayed since inception and in any case, one definitely cannot define "one's true self" by something as simple as a hairstyle.  Its an entire package.  But when I was talking about that novelty pic of Storm on that cover I was speaking on more than her having an Afro.  It was the entire package.

Point is, despite being African, Storm isnt and has never been portrayed as the type of black or African woman that cover suggests, which along with the afro and clothing and brothas in berets standing behind her suggested a more militant black panther party type.  There is nothing wrong with it or that type of African woman (and I get the novelty of the cover and look and how it fit into the story and the time they were in) but one must merely accept there are different ways african and/or black people exist.  And Storm has always been a lot more "Iman" than she has been "Lauryn Hill" or "Assata Shakur" or even "Coffy".   Misty Knight would fit the "Coffy" bill more...but in any case if one were to suddenly make Storm what that picture suggests in the MU it wouldnt be her if one looked at her personality over the past decades of her existing.  And arguably it is a strong and definitive history.  Fans can tell when Storm is written out of character.  And some fans desire to take Storm, because she is African, and make her their own view of being "more black" and whatever that entails is more about culturally and visually assimilating her to a certain perspective than it is about writing or approaching the character for who she is since she was created and written four decades ago.

Opinions on Storm and how her "blackness" should be portrayed also reminds me of how some of us judge black people who arent "black enough".  And I wonder if you would say a black woman who is into punk and rocked a pink mohawk would be more her "true self" if she got an Afro and listened to The Last Poets?   I dont think the mohawk or the Afro is Storm's "true self" as I dont think a hairstyle can do that fully, but the mohawk has a lot more history and was arguably done well when it was presented, and of course is a fan favorite.  Do white fans connect with her more that way?  Maybe but I would say its more about X-fans, who can be a rabid bunch, connecting with her more that way due to how popular it was when Claremont first did it.  Being black and an old school X-fan, I can say I definitely like it better.  That's not to say Storm with an Afro wouldnt work but it would have to be written well and made to fit the character, not the character re-made to fit IT.  Thus far though, it remains a novelty concept on a cover and a look not even Hudlin dared to actually do mainstream-wise during his run.  I say this because you speak as if "Afro-Storm" was actually written in the books, even by Hudlin.  And lets not pretend Storm with an Afro could not be written the same way Storm with long hair or a mohawk could or would be.  That is up to the writer.  In any case, Mohawk Storm as she was back in the day was not a pushover, wallpaper, or weak.  She actually became stronger during that period.  And she is an Xman and always will be to fans first and foremost in any case.  And all the Xmen have intra-group affairs, though I still agree on not liking her getting with Logan.  Though calling her a "jump-off' simply smacks of slut-shaming her.

As for the CC version of their meeting compared with the Dickey one, i agree with Princesca that Dickey's version made Storm a "damsel in distress" in order to make T'Challa look like "the man" and the hero which in a common sexist way fits a romance novel better.  At least the CC version in that one instance made them BOTH look capable and strong.  Heck, T'Challa looked like he was going to beat "The Bull" and his men by himself before Storm came along in the CC version anyway before Storm decided to help him.  It would be dishonest if one cannot say they see the unbalanced and glaring difference in the Dickey version in favor of T'Challa.

I will say you were honest in implying to Princesca that there may be bias on your part due to being male when judging that scene.  Imsure to a certain extent guys on here live vicariously through the great adventures of a character like BP and want to picture themselves through him saving "the girl".  But seeing how it was originally portrayed in comparison, it definitely comes off a sexist re-interpretation made to make the man look more the hero.

Also, you cant definitely say how Storm's prescence in NA would be if she were still with T'Challa.  No one can.  As for Medusa's role increasing, we will see.  As for now, she's simply the wife of the king and Illuminati member.


Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #859 on: October 14, 2013, 08:21:40 pm »
supreme illuminati,

all that being said, its still mostly dreamworks...you're mostly creating scenes about what "could" have been done with Storm or Queen Ororo or what you would like to see and not speaking of what was done or most likely would have been done.  "See Wakanda and Die" was a great story and a good example to pull from.  But just because Hudlin (and Aaron in that one story) used her in various and prominent ways in his Panther Book still doesnt mean she wouldve been a part of all that is happening with Infinity now in any prominent way.  And even if she was, it still would have been not on her own credentials but on just being married to Panther.  Everything she would have gotten or did get, being Queen, being in the Avengers, being involved with Infinity, even the wish or presumption by some posters of her being in the Illuminati (which would have made no sense, as Storm, if one were to remain consistent with her character, would never approve of the group, and the awkwardness created by having a married couple in it would be obvious) would be because of being married to Panther.  In this she would always be second to him no matter what she did because it would all be because of him.

But I maintain that its presumptious to think she would have been in the Illuminati or an Avenger or involved in Infinity that much if they were still married.  Definitely she would have been seen helping to defend Wakanda when Black Dwarf attacked but the spotlight and crux of it still would be T'Challa.

Now, thats not to say that is necessarily a bad thing, but to some readers Storm deserves greatness on her own and not because she married the king of Wakanda.  I personally have always liked their relationship from back when Chris Claremont first wrote that small back up story, though I do dislike Dickey's re-telling of it and felt Jerome Dickey did a small disservice to Ororo with how he changed their initial meeting.  I didnt even mind the marriage though it was surprising but felt that in some ways it could have been handled better.

By the by, Im pretty sure Storm cant create earthquakes.  That's geological manipulation not weather. And I dont think her powers work in the way of disrupting the electricity in someone's brain or creating sleet storms in their intestines.  But maybe an instance of those happened that I dont know about?  Always room for error.

I also have to disagree that she did more in "Little Green Men" (a story that, despite all of the many great things Mr. Hudlin has produced, I disliked) than literally everthing combined than she's done under everybody else combined.  It's been a long time since he wrote an X-book, but Storm's initial greatness was definitely achieved under Chris Claremont, who had her involved in and do many great things for a number of many years.  That can't be ignored even with the arguably lackluster things she may be involved with now in the x-books.

Hah, and Afro-Storm with the Black Panther Party look and pose was a cool looking novelty concept no doubt, but not something I would like to see as a look for her in the actual comics.  Its just not her.


Before I go any further? Let me acknowledge that point regarding Storm with Chris Claremont at the peak of his powers vs Storm in LITTLE GREEN MEN. Which actually makes my point further and more powerfully and more clearly. You travelled back in time some 28 years to produce a run...A RUN, NOT AN ARC...that rivals or surpasses what Storm did under RH in only one arc, just a few years ago. You know what that means they've been doing to Ororo over there in the X-Office? In a phrase: She's been screwed.

And Afro-Storm is far more who Ororo actually is by a long shot than Mohawk Storm. But that's just a matter of opinion...frocked by an affinity with the Black experience that Mohawk Storm and much of the dialogue in the X-Books strongly attempts to move Ororo away from. A Black African woman who is somehow not African or Black in X-Men books; but a quiltwork of humanity. Guess what? Being Black MEANS YOU'RE THE BLUEPRINT FOR ALL OTHER HUMANS, according to the most rigorous science; so asserting her Blackness simultaneously asserts her affinity with and for humanity. I think both Afro and Mohawk Storm are parts of Storm's complex personality, but most of the writers and most of the readers of Storm have been White. They relate to Mohawk Storm and are threatened by Afro Storm due to their ignorance and complete lack of affinity with the Black experience. They don't connect to the Blackness of Storm and the cultural links that [ especially given that time period ] would have made Afro Storm far far faaarrrr more realistic--and no less regal, no less poised, no less beautiful. It's impossible for Afro Storm to be wallpaper and wall flower and NEVER NEVER could she be a Logan jump-off. Afro-Storm is far more representative of a more dominant closer to the surface Storm than Wild Storm/Mohawk Storm is.

As for earthquakes and sleet/rainstorms in intestines? These and similar feats have been established for Storm for roundabout 20 years. Since just before and during THE ULTIMATE line's arrival. rutog could fill you in on that. We have an epic thread started by Rutog regarding how incredible Storm really is. There are real gems in there...check it out.

As for the comment of mine being dreamworks?  Yep. Of course what I've said is dreamworks, friend. Comics as a whole is dreamworks. Important dreamworks but...dreamworks still.

With that being said? Reflect upon the mere presence of STORM if she's in the hands of a strong writer who doesn't want to make her the center of say the N.A. battle vs Thanos Armies. Right away, we have someone who can and would draw the attention of Supergiant and/or Midnight. Right away we have someone with the power and skill set to shine in a battle of this magnitude, and bring more attention to the book.

I don't think that Storm would've been a maximally background character due to her position as a Queen, and X-Man, and the fact that she is Storm. Plus. How many ladies have you seen in The Illuminati? Yeah...me neither. So while I don't see her being an Illuminati, I DO see her playing a stronger role than she has  played of late in the X-Men...and doing it in a book that is more important to Marvel to boot. Remember, she's played a strong role in TChalla's life since they were children, before he was a King...and she did this because she is Storm. I absolutely disagree that even as Queen of Wakanda she would've done anything as a marital appendage of TChalla's. She became Queen because of who she is. TPG judged Storm worthy of the title of Queen because of who she is. She wouldn't go out on the battlefield, or the political arena, wave her scepter and that's that. Nope. Every victory won, every battle engaged, every problem solved, every bit of regality she effortlessly exudes, every drop of passion shown, every action she takes is because she is Ororo first. Ororo has always been a queen; as Queen of Wakanda? She would ostentatiously officially put the stamp on who she always has been; the incarnation of mystic legacy and life energy. Beautiful Black woman of amazing intellect, spirituality, strength, serenity, warriorship, passion. The love of TChalla's life. African Queen. And as Queen of Wakanda? She would not only be the most important mutant on Earth but she would also be an indispensable asset in any Wakandan conflict.

For the record? I despise the CC version of how Ororo and TChalla met. I absolutely love the EJD version. EJD, imo, was far far more realistic, and more respectful of both the legend, legacy and reality of Wakanda--which by far would be the most powerful legend and greatest and most respected, revered country in Africa; most especially by other Africans--as well as respectful and more realistic regarding TChalla and Ororo. And the Bull and everyone else, too. But that is merely my opinion on the matter. I am not attempting to belittle your position at all. I respect your position; I merely disagree.

And yes the spotlight and crux of NA's Wakandan actions would be on TChalla--even though Black Bolt seems poised to leapfrog passed TChalla in the book's importance. But Storm would definitely be more in the forefront than Medusa currently is [ I expect Medusa's role to exponentially increase in importance and whatnot over the next few months and Spring of 2014 ].



Sorry for responding to this so late...been busy.

supreme you make SOME good points but some definitely built on personal bias, especially where you are saying that "Afro-Storm" is Storm's true self.  You say it is opinion and it most definitely is especially since the only person that can say who their true self is the person in question.  It would be the height of arrogance and condescension for anyone to factually tell someone who their true self is.  In terms of a black comic book character it gets a bit more erroneous since they are fictional, but in Storm's case as in any character's case one would have to look at how they have been definitively portrayed since inception and in any case, one definitely cannot define "one's true self" by something as simple as a hairstyle.  Its an entire package.  But when I was talking about that novelty pic of Storm on that cover I was speaking on more than her having an Afro.  It was the entire package.

Point is, despite being African, Storm isnt and has never been portrayed as the type of black or African woman that cover suggests, which along with the afro and clothing and brothas in berets standing behind her suggested a more militant black panther party type.  There is nothing wrong with it or that type of African woman (and I get the novelty of the cover and look and how it fit into the story and the time they were in) but one must merely accept there are different ways african and/or black people exist.  And Storm has always been a lot more "Iman" than she has been "Lauryn Hill" or "Assata Shakur" or even "Coffy".   Misty Knight would fit the "Coffy" bill more...but in any case if one were to suddenly make Storm what that picture suggests in the MU it wouldnt be her if one looked at her personality over the past decades of her existing.  And arguably it is a strong and definitive history.  Fans can tell when Storm is written out of character.  And some fans desire to take Storm, because she is African, and make her their own view of being "more black" and whatever that entails is more about culturally and visually assimilating her to a certain perspective than it is about writing or approaching the character for who she is since she was created and written four decades ago.

Opinions on Storm and how her "blackness" should be portrayed also reminds me of how some of us judge black people who arent "black enough".  And I wonder if you would say a black woman who is into punk and rocked a pink mohawk would be more her "true self" if she got an Afro and listened to The Last Poets?   I dont think the mohawk or the Afro is Storm's "true self" as I dont think a hairstyle can do that fully, but the mohawk has a lot more history and was arguably done well when it was presented, and of course is a fan favorite.  Do white fans connect with her more that way?  Maybe but I would say its more about X-fans, who can be a rabid bunch, connecting with her more that way due to how popular it was when Claremont first did it.  Being black and an old school X-fan, I can say I definitely like it better.  That's not to say Storm with an Afro wouldnt work but it would have to be written well and made to fit the character, not the character re-made to fit IT.  Thus far though, it remains a novelty concept on a cover and a look not even Hudlin dared to actually do mainstream-wise during his run.  I say this because you speak as if "Afro-Storm" was actually written in the books, even by Hudlin.  And lets not pretend Storm with an Afro could not be written the same way Storm with long hair or a mohawk could or would be.  That is up to the writer.  In any case, Mohawk Storm as she was back in the day was not a pushover, wallpaper, or weak.  She actually became stronger during that period.  And she is an Xman and always will be to fans first and foremost in any case.  And all the Xmen have intra-group affairs, though I still agree on not liking her getting with Logan.  Though calling her a "jump-off' simply smacks of slut-shaming her.

As for the CC version of their meeting compared with the Dickey one, i agree with Princesca that Dickey's version made Storm a "damsel in distress" in order to make T'Challa look like "the man" and the hero which in a common sexist way fits a romance novel better.  At least the CC version in that one instance made them BOTH look capable and strong.  Heck, T'Challa looked like he was going to beat "The Bull" and his men by himself before Storm came along in the CC version anyway before Storm decided to help him.  It would be dishonest if one cannot say they see the unbalanced and glaring difference in the Dickey version in favor of T'Challa.

I will say you were honest in implying to Princesca that there may be bias on your part due to being male when judging that scene.  Imsure to a certain extent guys on here live vicariously through the great adventures of a character like BP and want to picture themselves through him saving "the girl".  But seeing how it was originally portrayed in comparison, it definitely comes off a sexist re-interpretation made to make the man look more the hero.

Also, you cant definitely say how Storm's prescence in NA would be if she were still with T'Challa.  No one can.  As for Medusa's role increasing, we will see.  As for now, she's simply the wife of the king and Illuminati member.





Whassup, bruh. Glad you responded.

Okay I'm going to jump in first regarding the story that CC wrote regarding Ororo and TChalla first meeting. For those of us who don't recall the story in its entirety? This link is pretty much it:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/06/23/the-abandoned-an-forsaked-so-how-did-storm-and-the-black-panther-first-meet-exactly/

A.Curry. I like and respect you. However. If you and Princesa...who will probably flambe me for saying this...and anybody else thinks that this few sets of panels actually trumps EJD's 6 books on the subject? If you actually think that a few panels written by CC as a throwaway story and drawn by his artists trumps the quality work that EJD showed, the characterization, the pacing, the dialogue? We irreconcilably disagree.

But I do think that we can agree that our disagreement centers around the fact that CC and EJD wrote for characters with vastly different back stories, vastly different office politics, and in vastly different times. The differences these factors make cannot be overstated.

CC was writing a TChalla who basically distinguished himself by learning the manna of European education, bringing this knowledge back to noble but backward Wakanda, and single-handedly engineering a super civilization with supertech so advanced that it was very impressive to Reed Richards. However, even the manna of European superior education wasn't sufficient to fully propel Wakanda to the status of supertech saturated supercivilization [ even though it was for Reed, Doom, The Leader, and literally every other supertech hero or villain ]. TChalla and Wakanda relied extremely heavily upon the uberpresence of vibranium. Time after time, it was made clear that Wakanda would suffer a steep, steep decline in special significance...such that it was...should the country run out of Vibranium. And TChalla was constantly having to enlist the help of White heroes to help him regain his lost Vibranium from some low level wakk White criminal who nevertheless ran circles around TChalla, stole his Vibranium, and would have kept it and done whatever nefarious things he/she/they wanted unless the White heroes condescended to help TChalla in his perpetual hour of need.

Oh yeah. TChalla was consistently written as never taking advantage of this supertech that HE CREATED which is so prevalent in Wakanda due to his ubergenius; the best he was regularly shown with was knockout gas from his gloves and occassionally his TechnoJungle. Do you remember the howling flaming tirade tsunamis from LCBRD members who never read or cared about TChalla when Priest gave TChalla a Kimoyo card, energy daggers, vibranium weave in his suit, and other superbasic, super common sense upgrades that he should have had? Me, too.

Remember the White author written TChalla? You remember THAT TChalla...physically subpar to Captain America...was written as being beaten up by teenagers. I said...TEENAGERS. That TChalla? He was being regularly smashed by low level villains and constantly needing to be rescued by White heroes. Male and female.

Now. Ororo is written as being of royal Kenyan blood, raised in New York with her two Black biological parents...but not only literally written as being genetically closer to White people than Black people, but also as an elemental beauty mixing nobility serenity and niavete who is a distinct second to the White alpha mutant females. Especially her "sister" Jean Grey. All this done shortly after both the Civil Rights AND Black Power Movements...as Storm first showed up in 1975.

Given the events of that time period...from Jomo Kenyatta to Biko to King to Malcolm, from the MAU MAU to Mandela to The Black Panthers and Organization Us, from Rhodesia becoming Zimbabwe to Hurricane Carter languishing in jail, from Freedom Riders to Muhammad Ali. From Cinque and Patti Hearst to Tookie Williams, from Pamela Grier to Cleopatra, from Gloria Richardson to Rosa Parks, from Winnie Mandela to Coretta Scott King...Afro Storm is clearly, undoubtedly, thoroughly, truly, culturally and racially more reflective of the realities, the affinities, the history, the attitudes and aspirations of the Black community than Mohawk Storm. In my opinion, at least. I find it very, very, very hard to factually assert the ascendancy of Mohawk Storm over Afro Storm in any comparison and contrast given the actual reality of the Black community during that time period. So would you and anybody else. Especially since the Mohawk is a reflection of a largely White countercultural movement that started roundabout the Seventies but didn't gain traction in the public eye til around the Eighties. Mohawk Storm is not even reflective of the popular Black African Mandinka hairstyle of very similar appearance preceding it rocked by Mr. T.

And yet. CC wrote the Ororo that we all know and love...and his doing so WAS A RISKY THING TO DO AT THAT TIME. He wrote Ororo as essentially being Black and African on the outside, yet White and a mutant on the inside...AND THAT WAS A RISKY THING TO DO AT THAT TIME.

Nobody blinked twice at White Irish Banshee, though. Remember him? Banshee's ethnicity played a heavy role in his characterization. Also remember...in the Eighties, nobody knew for sure if Natasha Romanoff the Black Widow was a mutant or not. But she suuurre was RUSSIAN. Red headed, too. Remember Elektra broke out big under Frank Miller's pen...and she was and is still clearly Greek.

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #860 on: October 14, 2013, 08:22:21 pm »
But the LCBRD would have felt threatened by and not identified with African Storm rocking her African Mandinka Mohawk. We know this because literally every single Black character at that time and in Marvel period until Priest reworked TChalla was mostly ignored [ TCHALLA ], known as being mostly a stereotype [ Luke Cage ], essentially wholly unknown [ BLADE ] and mostly a REFORMED stereotype [ SAM WILSON ] who redeemed himself as a sidekick to a far more popular, far more legendary White hero. And CC smartly ensured Ororo's longevity by essentially writing the tamest exotic accessible Black woman he could write.

Rutog...the mighty oracle of all things Ororo...made it clear that there are multiple takes on the history and specifics of Ororo's powers and their development. He holds to Ororo having an innate understanding and mastery of her powers since their manifestation as a teen. I think that EJD kept her powers manifesting as a teen but caught her AND TChalla at a clearly YOUNGER age than CC wrote both of them. And EJD wrote much more realistic Black characters with much more respectful canon due directly to Black writers writing them and reworking the offensive garbage.

Put bluntly...both of those previous White written characterizations were designed to appeal to the sensibilities of the LCBRD. And all of the characters that wish to survive in the largely LCBRD world of comics must follow suit or perish. Which says all that needs to be said about both the preferences of the writers in general in all of comics AND the general comic book consumer.

EJD wrote the post Priest, A-List RH Black Panther...AND WAKANDA. The unstoppable presence of Wakanda is the operative difference here. What if African civilization had never felt the yoke of civilization and never surrendered it's multiple millenia cultural scientific spiritual and everything else lead over the rest of the world? Frankly, nobody except Asgard and Olympia could hott box with her. And that's the Wakanda that RH wrote and that's the Wakanda that figured prominently in EJD's work.

Remember. Our Maestro Dwayne was doing his incomparable work on the F4 at that time, too. His Ororo? Yeah, she housed the essence of ETERNITY. Warren Ellis' Ororo clowned The White Queen with a single speech. Yost's Ororo stared down TPG. RH Ororo? Queen, most important mutant on Earth, incarnation of the highest dreams of Professor X, stuck a lightning bolt up TChalla's tail, she was smashin people left and right, backed down Tony Stark at her Embassy, squared off with Clor.

The X-Office Ororo? Yeah, she housed the essence of...basically house mammy chump being ignored and not used anywhere near to her staggering potential.

Like I said. EJD wrote totally different characters in TChalla and Storm by much more respectfully, realistically, identifying with and literally making more true to the Black experience and Black aspirations every relevant detail of the characters and relating them to the specifics of the story that he wished to tell.

EJD wrote Storm as being the decisive factor in defeating The Bull. I like that version better than the version written by CC. EJD wrote Ororo very decisively saving TChalla's life.

TCHALLA. DID NOT. SAVE ORORO'S LIFE IN THAT WHOLE ADVENTURE. He saved her from the degradation of essentially slavery. Not death. And that was the first of TWO TIMES that Ororo saved TChalla's life. Yet the people dissin EJD's work rather conveniently forget that about his story.

And frankly, EJD wrote everything else better, more realistically and more respectfully than CC's version, too. The grown  RH+EJD BP wouldn't even find himself condescending to smash mere henchmen. He wouldn't even do battle with The Bull. None of those guys are worthy of BP's personal attention, nor would they even withstand a rush by a squadron of Wakanda's armed forces. They wouldn't even rate the attention of the Hatute Zerazi or The Dora Milaje. They are literally not worth mentioning as even the mildest of irritants. Teenage TChalla SHOULD dispense with them all with ease. And for the most part...he did. Teenage Ororo...even a young teen Ororo just stirring with the awakening of her powers and womanhood...would dispense with them too, and she did.



Now. Back to the "Blackness" of Storm...

...there are many manifestations of Blackness. Pink Mohawked Ororo is cool and could be Black as space during a power outage. However. Reading the X-stories of Ororo? None of the actual manifestations of Blackness [ not even going back to Africa, which Ororo did at one time in the mutant saga, to reacquire her spiritual equilibrium ] equates with the primary way in which Storm has been written. Storm has been written, as I said, as Black African on the outside and White mutant on the inside. Period point blank. And there was little other option for her while she resides on that plantation; written any other way? She would have speedily declined in significance and faded into the background of the X-Men...or been killed...long ago.

QUICK. NAME ONE SIGNIFICANT, LEADING BLACK CHARACTER GETTING SIGNIFICANT ACTION, CHARACTERIZATION, SHINE, ETC IN ALL OF THE X-MEN, WHO IS WRITTEN AS BEING CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY AFRICAN OR AFRICAN-WHATEVER AS BANSHEE IS IRISH.

That's what I thought.

Now. Find ONE Black character in all of Marvel who is close to as prominent and cool as TChalla is. Better not say Luke Cage, neither. Not yet, anyway. He would've been a good answer...WHEN RH WAS WRITING HIM. Falcon would've been a good answer...WHEN PRIEST WAS WRITING HIM. So who does that leave?

That's what I thought.

Now name 5 really cool White superheroes who are all the way White, American and say...New York'd out.

Hawkeye. Matt Murdock. Peter Parker cuz we know he's coming back. Captain America...both of em. Tony Starks. You can't name them fast enough. And you can't name enough of them.

And there ya go.
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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #861 on: October 15, 2013, 09:02:11 am »
That was flawless, supreme illuminati. Simply flawless. I completely co-sign. I was addressing a similar point in post #1070 of New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power.
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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #862 on: October 15, 2013, 10:01:53 am »
As far as EJD story I thought it was simply horrible. First of all it was boor-ing with a capital B. It droned on and on. And yes. I do feel he made her a damsel-in-distress. But oh no, the female can't come to his aide (as the REAL story told) he has to be the heroic one. I was offended. The art was terrible. Why they picked EJD in the first place is beyond me the only good thing he didn't make T'Challa "downlow" like he tends to do in his stories with male Black men characters. Did I say I thought it horrible?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 10:04:23 am by Princesa »

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #863 on: October 15, 2013, 10:08:19 am »
Don't forget the under age sex issue! :o


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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #864 on: October 18, 2013, 01:23:08 pm »
As far as EJD story I thought it was simply horrible. First of all it was boor-ing with a capital B. It droned on and on. And yes. I do feel he made her a damsel-in-distress. But oh no, the female can't come to his aide (as the REAL story told) he has to be the heroic one. I was offended. The art was terrible. Why they picked EJD in the first place is beyond me the only good thing he didn't make T'Challa "downlow" like he tends to do in his stories with male Black men characters. Did I say I thought it horrible?

Okay, I understand that you think it was horrible. I respectfully disagree, as I'm sure you've gathered, so I'll leave most of your post alone...

...but how exactly is Ororo the damsel in distress when she literally saved TChalla's life...and TChalla didn't save hers? Seems to me that...despite TChalla's absolutely insanely staggering advantages...Ororo very clearly established herself as being an equal in all the areas that count in superheroic throwdowns--that's the throwdown with the Boss Bad Guy, in this case THE BULL--by saving herself, saving the son of the top Warriors Supreme on planet Earth, disposing of a superhuman enemy, and forcing her rival to flee and "not be the slowest zebra" [ for Ororo was now the lioness ] when TChalla failed to accomplish all of these feats on his own?

Initially, TChalla enjoyed all of the logical advantages that he should enjoy. He whooped on the White hunters and whatnot at first, because he IS the son of TChaka...AND the hunters weren't aware of who and what he is. He commanded the adoration and respect of his fellow Africans, as he should. He is literally the Crown Prince of the greatest civilization in human history, destined to be annointed by TPG himself. If anything, TChalla was written down more than he very conceivably been written in order to allow the story to proceed for 6 issues. The ubergenius TChalla had already developed Light Armor 4 years prior to his Walkabout. He would have stomped the very brains out of those guys in just a few panels...should he have chosen. He would not have failed to use his knowledge of superhuman anatomy to apply a series of nerve strikes to The Bull and put him down for the count; and that "count" would have been whatever count that TChalla wanted.


What TChalla couldn't do is fly. Or command any bit of weather. And once they were bound and hounded in that helicopter? That was all Ororo doing the heavy lifting.

Ororo finished The Bull...causing the spinal injury which later was the primary contributor to his physical death...with her powers. She saved TChalla and herself. She ended the drought and tended the crops of her people, whereas Wakanda and TChalla did not.

I don't see a damsel in distress anywhere in all of that.

I see a star crossed duo feeling love for the first time and falling in love with each other--their greatest love resting inevitably in each other, come what may--and I see the youthful energy, intensity, and energy in it. The all consuming passion in it. I see in Ororo not a damsel in distress, but a Goddess, a elemental, a Queen, a warrior of literally galactic standing aborning.
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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #865 on: October 19, 2013, 05:33:56 pm »
I just realized the best stories of Ororo's strong character are really shown when she didn't have her powers.
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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #866 on: October 19, 2013, 05:39:16 pm »
It's simple. As I recall the original story was she happened upon him beset by evildoers and she came to his assistance and the revamp was the opposite. That's the story. Sure she got a spot or two in the drawn out remix by EJD. That was a given it was supposed to be their story. But Mr Supreme it is kind of all moot now...unless you're one of the yet remaining hopeful...Don't let Bendis pull you back in with that offspring of the them stuff.

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #867 on: October 26, 2013, 12:14:27 pm »
It's simple. As I recall the original story was she happened upon him beset by evildoers and she came to his assistance and the revamp was the opposite. That's the story. Sure she got a spot or two in the drawn out remix by EJD. That was a given it was supposed to be their story. But Mr Supreme it is kind of all moot now...unless you're one of the yet remaining hopeful...Don't let Bendis pull you back in with that offspring of the them stuff.

I would think that the original story was really a shard of a story...Ororo came upon TChalla battling evildoers. But how did the evildoers beset TChalla? Why was TChalla without his tech, his warriors, etc? At what point in time could henchmen of any ilk hold even the slightest candle to TChalla even at his worst? How did the evildoers NOT get intercepted and dispensed with by the Wakandan Defense Forces? Etc etc etc. The story was much more complete from Ororo's POV, but that's all. EJD told the whole story, providing a far more believable context for everyone involved. ADULT TChalla and ADULT Storm could hardly be bothered by such unremarkable criminals. TChalla would overwhelm them effortlessly in any way that he chose and so would Ororo...as she could eliminate them using any of her powers at their lowest settings or even elect to beat them all down hand to hand. With ease, no less.

So yeah, we respectfully but irreconcilably disagree with each other. And itsallgood. Still luv ya.

Never fear...I had completely forgotten about that Bendis thing until you mentioned it, and in about 10 minutes Bendis and most things X-related will fade away from anywhere near the forefront of my thoughts and memories again.
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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #868 on: October 30, 2013, 08:34:33 am »
But the LCBRD would have felt threatened by and not identified with African Storm rocking her African Mandinka Mohawk. We know this because literally every single Black character at that time and in Marvel period until Priest reworked TChalla was mostly ignored [ TCHALLA ], known as being mostly a stereotype [ Luke Cage ], essentially wholly unknown [ BLADE ] and mostly a REFORMED stereotype [ SAM WILSON ] who redeemed himself as a sidekick to a far more popular, far more legendary White hero. And CC smartly ensured Ororo's longevity by essentially writing the tamest exotic accessible Black woman he could write.

Rutog...the mighty oracle of all things Ororo...made it clear that there are multiple takes on the history and specifics of Ororo's powers and their development. He holds to Ororo having an innate understanding and mastery of her powers since their manifestation as a teen. I think that EJD kept her powers manifesting as a teen but caught her AND TChalla at a clearly YOUNGER age than CC wrote both of them. And EJD wrote much more realistic Black characters with much more respectful canon due directly to Black writers writing them and reworking the offensive garbage.

Put bluntly...both of those previous White written characterizations were designed to appeal to the sensibilities of the LCBRD. And all of the characters that wish to survive in the largely LCBRD world of comics must follow suit or perish. Which says all that needs to be said about both the preferences of the writers in general in all of comics AND the general comic book consumer.

EJD wrote the post Priest, A-List RH Black Panther...AND WAKANDA. The unstoppable presence of Wakanda is the operative difference here. What if African civilization had never felt the yoke of civilization and never surrendered it's multiple millenia cultural scientific spiritual and everything else lead over the rest of the world? Frankly, nobody except Asgard and Olympia could hott box with her. And that's the Wakanda that RH wrote and that's the Wakanda that figured prominently in EJD's work.

Remember. Our Maestro Dwayne was doing his incomparable work on the F4 at that time, too. His Ororo? Yeah, she housed the essence of ETERNITY. Warren Ellis' Ororo clowned The White Queen with a single speech. Yost's Ororo stared down TPG. RH Ororo? Queen, most important mutant on Earth, incarnation of the highest dreams of Professor X, stuck a lightning bolt up TChalla's tail, she was smashin people left and right, backed down Tony Stark at her Embassy, squared off with Clor.

The X-Office Ororo? Yeah, she housed the essence of...basically house mammy chump being ignored and not used anywhere near to her staggering potential.

Like I said. EJD wrote totally different characters in TChalla and Storm by much more respectfully, realistically, identifying with and literally making more true to the Black experience and Black aspirations every relevant detail of the characters and relating them to the specifics of the story that he wished to tell.

EJD wrote Storm as being the decisive factor in defeating The Bull. I like that version better than the version written by CC. EJD wrote Ororo very decisively saving TChalla's life.

TCHALLA. DID NOT. SAVE ORORO'S LIFE IN THAT WHOLE ADVENTURE. He saved her from the degradation of essentially slavery. Not death. And that was the first of TWO TIMES that Ororo saved TChalla's life. Yet the people dissin EJD's work rather conveniently forget that about his story.

And frankly, EJD wrote everything else better, more realistically and more respectfully than CC's version, too. The grown  RH+EJD BP wouldn't even find himself condescending to smash mere henchmen. He wouldn't even do battle with The Bull. None of those guys are worthy of BP's personal attention, nor would they even withstand a rush by a squadron of Wakanda's armed forces. They wouldn't even rate the attention of the Hatute Zerazi or The Dora Milaje. They are literally not worth mentioning as even the mildest of irritants. Teenage TChalla SHOULD dispense with them all with ease. And for the most part...he did. Teenage Ororo...even a young teen Ororo just stirring with the awakening of her powers and womanhood...would dispense with them too, and she did.



Now. Back to the "Blackness" of Storm...

...there are many manifestations of Blackness. Pink Mohawked Ororo is cool and could be Black as space during a power outage. However. Reading the X-stories of Ororo? None of the actual manifestations of Blackness [ not even going back to Africa, which Ororo did at one time in the mutant saga, to reacquire her spiritual equilibrium ] equates with the primary way in which Storm has been written. Storm has been written, as I said, as Black African on the outside and White mutant on the inside. Period point blank. And there was little other option for her while she resides on that plantation; written any other way? She would have speedily declined in significance and faded into the background of the X-Men...or been killed...long ago.

QUICK. NAME ONE SIGNIFICANT, LEADING BLACK CHARACTER GETTING SIGNIFICANT ACTION, CHARACTERIZATION, SHINE, ETC IN ALL OF THE X-MEN, WHO IS WRITTEN AS BEING CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY AFRICAN OR AFRICAN-WHATEVER AS BANSHEE IS IRISH.

That's what I thought.

Now. Find ONE Black character in all of Marvel who is close to as prominent and cool as TChalla is. Better not say Luke Cage, neither. Not yet, anyway. He would've been a good answer...WHEN RH WAS WRITING HIM. Falcon would've been a good answer...WHEN PRIEST WAS WRITING HIM. So who does that leave?

That's what I thought.

Now name 5 really cool White superheroes who are all the way White, American and say...New York'd out.

Hawkeye. Matt Murdock. Peter Parker cuz we know he's coming back. Captain America...both of em. Tony Starks. You can't name them fast enough. And you can't name enough of them.

And there ya go.

Hi Supreme, again, excuse my lateness in answering this. 

First, back on the "blackness" of Storm...

Let me say first that we honestly disagree on how anything "cultural" can and should manifest themselves and also how people react to it. Firstly, the characters you mentioned before, outside of Captain America whom I will get back to, I dont and most people dont see as manifestations of "all the way white and American" whatever that is?  Hawkeye, Matt, Stark, and Parker are obviously white, but how do they manifest white or American culture in ways similar to how you think Storm should manifest African culture?  The main characteristics of all 4 are ones that everyone, regardless of color, can relate to and Im wondering how you see these strong manifestations of white and American culture coming out of them.  The 4 from my readings don't tend to manifest a strong commitment to America, they dont talk about being white or America as a proud part of their identity nor do they manifest it in ways clearly seen.  Like most northeastern Americans, they are American sure but they dont tend to give it much thought or show much basic loyalty to it.  They just are. So again, Im not sure how they are all the way white or American or what that even means when the only thing shown as a part of this is that they are visually white and live in New York.  Stark maybe, if you want to say him being an American capitalist underscores this, then fine, but it still begs the question of how that makes him "all the way white" or even American since he is just about promoting business and the future and making money.  None of these characters wear their "whiteness" or "American-ness" on their sleeve the way you seem to want Storm to wear her "African-ness" on hers.

As for Captain America, you do realize their is a huge segment of fandom whom are very uncomfortable with the character and his very outright in your face symbolism of America, right?  Xmen fans in particular HATE the character and find him corny, outdated, preachy, offensive in his percieved over the top loyalty to his country, and possibly even fascist and racist.  I had a friend whom isnt even into comics who actually liked all the Avengers movies but wouldnt go see his because she percieves him and his outright symbolism for America to be preachy and fascist.  Cap and his over the top American-ness doesnt always do the character good.  He's not always considered "cool" because of that.  Hawkeye and the others you mentioned are moreso considered cool simply because they DON'T manifest these in your face examples of being white and American in the way that he does.

And Banshee??  You used a third rate Xman as an example? Why do you think he hasnt been used much over the years? You do know many fans, including Irish ones, considered Banshee a stereotype, right?  The only thing Irish about him was his accent and that he stereotypically smoked a pipe and was named after a cultural mythic figure.  But most people, or fans today, who dont necessarily wear their culture on their sleeve would consider him a parody of an Irish character.  Same with characters such as Thunderbird and in a way even Sunfire, whom are not at all popular Xmen (like Banshee) and Sunfire is getting play in Uncanny Avengers but is now being shown moreso as a complex character without going into his whole "son of Nippon" thing he used to play out.

So no, I cant name a black character in the Xmen that fits the example you gave above.  But given the examples that espouse the cultural virtues you seem to want Storm to have, and their total lack of popularity, that arguably wouldnt help said character. 

If you look at these across the board examples, youd probably see in a practical sense that portraying Storm in the way you wish, which is similar to the examples above, would satisfy a small segment of fans but turn off many others (including believe it or not, some black ones) and especially old Xmen fans not only because its not how she's been portrayed and thus not what they are used to, but because it most likely wouldve taken over her character and made her unrecognizable to what honestly is her core base.

Storm is clearly African and has been shown relating to it and having fondness for it numerous times.  She has returned there for enrichment even in the Claremont series twice and yes, Ellis has touched upon this remarkably as well.  But when these stories were written, she didnt need an Afro for it
nor did she need to wear her culture and race on her sleeve or espouse black politics or honestly, though I didnt mind it, be married to an African king.  Again, when people say "black african on the outside, white mutant on the inside" I'm not sure what that means.  She is a mutant.  That is her primary role in the MU and what she was created as and is for.  Making her being black as her primary role would change the character too much.  As for what makes her white on the inside, why?  Cause she has more white friends than black?  cause she doesnt espouse black politics or hairstyles?  When has she ever espoused white politics?  Again, not sure what this means.

 She's not political so her taking on black politics, or any politics, would be out of her character.  Even for mutants she's not political in the way Cyclops is.  I do think because she is such a popular character who happens to be black many black fans are putting a weight on her to be this example of a "strong African queen" which she never was.  And mentioning characters who honestly came off as parodies doesnt help the argument. 

As for your example of the era she came out of, not sure what that has to do with anything.  Not every black person in the 60's was being a revolutionary or espoused black politics or afrocentric-thinking.  This includes some musicians and actors and people who had a platform or notoriety.  A person like Storm couldve came out of that era as easily as a person like Assata Shakur could have.  In fact, Iman, whom is African, (and whom Ive always seen Storm as being more like) did come out of that era and though was African rarely if ever espoused being african or got into black politics.

Also you asked to name one black character whom is as close to cool or as prominent as T'challa...Im not sure again what that has to do with your point, unless youre saying "cool" and being prominent is linked to how "black" or African they are being shown.  Most of the things I find cool about the Panther isnt because he's African, yet it is cool to see a black man be portrayed that way.  I actually like Cage as shown by Bendis, though I did like RH's rendition too.  Agree about Falcon as i think he's rarely shown as being cool as he could be though the Geoff Johns Avengers tale came close.  Yet Panther was still cooler.

But youre not gonna find a black character as cool as he is because none are as smart, resourceful, has his tech, and are as enigmatic as he is.  Its like trying to find somone cooler in the JLA or heck, DC for that matter, than Batman.  you can't.

As for the EJD story and the CC version, I agree with Princesca, EJD didnt have to change that one instance, which was a major point of some fans, so much as to make Ororo a damsel in distress so T'challa could be shown as being the man.  It was definitely an example of downplaying her to upplay him and I can see from a character standpoint, and especially a feminist standpoint, how that looks.  But we can agree to disagree on that.  Though I cant see how in that instance where she was shot down by the bull and passed put crying and was later picked up and cradled by T'Challa after he defeated all of her attackers how you honestly can sit there and say she was not, in that instance, a "damsel in distress".


« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 09:41:56 am by A.Curry »

Offline A.Curry

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #869 on: October 30, 2013, 08:40:18 am »
I just realized the best stories of Ororo's strong character are really shown when she didn't have her powers.

I agree.  That time in CC's Xmen run, when she lost her powers and STILL worked as an Xman and used skill and smarts to beat foes, and even beat a fully powered Cyclops for leadership, was to this day the strongest time and showing of the character.  She had the mohawk at the time so its probably why many fans have fondness for  it.  And Lifedeath 1 and 2 remain to of the most beautifully written and illustrated stories published in Xmen lore.
I will admit these days they are not doing half as much with her and the character needs another renaissance as such.

Halle Berry did no favors for the character portraying her in Xmen either...