Author Topic: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).  (Read 530640 times)

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1260 on: May 17, 2014, 07:49:27 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field. The two of them should have gotten to know each other as ADULTS better over the period of at least a year. The whole business about EJD butchering Storm's character his "Storm" mini stands as proof of that. To accept that mini as part of a build up to an Ororo/T'challa marriage isn't going to fly as the only real thing it accomplished was devaluing Storm's character. It alienated Storm's fanbase...and with good reason. It only served to turn people who really know and love the character, Ororo, against the marriage.  As far as I'm concerned, that was an alternate reality Storm EJD wrote there.


But here's the thing.

I'm yet to read of a single Black panther fan who endorsed or accepted EJD's mini series or the retcon that it embodied so the real question that should be asked as to why said retconwas authorized should really have been addressed towards Marvel Editorial themselves as opposed to segments of X-fandom accusing Reginald Hudlin of being a racist just because he married two of the 616 MU's most prominent African characters.

Your repeatedly harping on about the EJD Storm mini as if it's the primary catalyst that's sustained the hatred aimed at T'Challa even post AvX doesn't even begin to justify the level of lunatic vitriol that Mr hudlin has had aimed in his direction for years post his writing of the Black Panther solo book and it definitely doesn't justify the online trolling and abuse that BP enthusiasts have had to put up with on forums like CBR in particular and other similarly themed forums in general.

EJD's Storm mini is just the convenient excuse some like to pose as their primary reason for not supporting the union between these two magnificent characters so let's not mince words here.

2) Storm was very much the unreachable goddess. Its not her fault if Dr. Doom, Dracula and Loki were in awe of her and wanted her for themselves as a lover. As you can see, she didn't end up with either of them. In fact, she told Loki off. You can't fault those men for having good taste in women.  ;D




As evidenced in the scan above, Ororo was never a "goddess" by any stretch of the imagination.

According to Charles Xavier, Ororo was merely a mutant who he expected to leave behind her "fantasy" life in Africa where she was revered and appreciated by the people there, to join him on a journey to the USA, where she'd be expected to lend her powers to the defense of a world that "feared and hated mutants."

Thus began Ororo's following the lead of others who seemed to think that they knew what was best for her and it's a trend that's continued all the way to the present day where Storm is portrayed in the X-books as someone who can't make any decisions without referring to the counsel of others.

The fact that the same fans who claimed to have a problem with T'Challa and Ororo being married still celebrate "what might have been" when characters like Doom and Dracula were in the frame says a lot to me about where some of these fans true alliegance lies in more ways than one but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because it's pretty clear to all but the willingly deluded that Marvel Editorial really messed up when they allowed former X-Office editor, Nick Lowe to run the X-franchise into the ground with his divisively mean spirited and short sighted agenda.

3) I recall John Byrne stating on a message board (IIRC) or an interview that as far as he was concerned, Storm's and BP
s relationship ended as children. He stated that Storm was too good of a character to be in a relationship with BP, though he felt they could be friends. I vaguely remember this. That may be why nothing was explored further.


What?

You mean the same notoriously racist John Byrne?

Why would any self respecting comic book enthusiast take him seriously or even give any credence to his opinion?

Byrne's statements as to whatever relationship T'Challa and Ororo had (past, present and future) is manifestly irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion.

However, since a number of your posts on this forum have pointed to your stated belief that being paired with T'Challa "devalues" Ororo as a character it comes as no suprise to me that you'd quote John Byrne as some sort of support to your argument without seeing the irony in Byrne's racism as a possible influence on his opinion of T'Challa as a character of substance.

That said, I'm going to defend Claremont, here. When he came on board to write the X-Men, the second generation team was already put together. He did not write Giant-Sized X-Men #1. It was an international team of mutants, so they had one from Africa, one from Ireland, one from Germany, and one from Canada with Cyclops leading the team.


I'm sure the irony of the fact that Storm was the only mutant of African descent on a team that was (at the time) 99% ALL WHITE is totally lost on you.             

During his run on X-Treme X-Men, Claremont took over the writing of Bishop. I remember him stating on a message board that he felt Bishop could join the ranks of the premier X-Men like Storm and Wolverine with the right development. He sought to move Bishop in that direction. He made him like a cop, boosted his telepathic defenses to such an extent that his mental defenses were second only to Storm's and Sage's on the team. He also gave Bishop a power boost by adding on new dimensions to Bishop's powers. Originally, Bishop could only absorb energy and throw it back at you as an energy blast. When CC got ahold of him, he enabled Bishop to use the energy to increase his physical strength, stamina and reaction speed. He also tried to establish Bishop as being one of the most formidable X-Men/mutants around. He established that since Bishop was from the future, he's had the opportunity to study the mutants in the present to learn of their battle strengths and weaknesses and to be able to take advantage of those weaknesses to use against them in battle. Claremont tends to write women and characters of color as premier characters. Characters of color were never just tokens under CC's pen.


None of which changes the fact that post Chris Claremont, the X-books are still bereft of any non-white characters in positions of authority or meaninful leadership roles. (especially Black male mutants)

Where is Bishop now?

4) It was not that CC could not be bothered by giving Storm a relationship interest that stopped him from giving her a BF for years, it was just a part of her character. Not only was she very much the unreachable goddess, this is a woman who also kept her emotions in check for fear of affecting weather patterns as they echo her emotions. The whole unreachable goddess thing played hand-in-hand with her keeping her emotions on a tight leash for fear of causing damage. It is my assertion that keeping her single played on that dynamic.


And that's a supposition (on your part) that hasn't exactly been borne out to any real meaningful effect or impact within the 616 MU.

Has Thor ever exhibited any problems controlling the weather when in the throes of passion? But then, I suppose that as an actual mythological deity as opposed to a mere mortal plasking make believe "goddess" he actually has more of a handle on things of this nature than the Windrider would.


Me:

I agree that it would have been both in-character AND mature for both Storm and Black Panther to take some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX, however, keeping the two as a married couple would have been a BAD idea. It alienated too much of the readership.


Keeping both characters married only alienated readers, writers and editors who were biased against the union of both characters right from day one so citing this supposedly alienated readership is quite disingenuous to say the least.

You may not realise this yourself, but based on conversations that I've had with many a BP enthusiast posting both here as well as on CBR a lot of us where Storm enthusiasts as well long before her link to T'Challa was revisited first by Priest and then Reginald Hudlin so I personally find this continual reference to Storm's X-fanbase as being the only one in existance that matters, exceedingly disrespectful but fully to be expected from a fanbase that actively supports and endorses active discrimination against anyone whom they percieve as not being sufficiently submissive to the X-Agenda.

As I've stated time and again, too much damage was done to Storm's character at the beginning of the whole ordeal (going all the way back to that HORRIBLE mini) to prop up BP and the marriage thing that sent her fanbase running for the hills.


And I stay refuting this assertion of yours because I'm yet to see where one writers misstep supported by editorial falling aslep at the wheel, justifies the wholesale vitriol that was (and still is) aimed at a writer who had nothing to do with EJD's mini series.

Christopher revisited the relationship during his tenure as BP scribe but was not allowed to develop it further by the selfsame Marvel Editorial who acquiesced to Mr Hudlin's proposed storyline to revisit what Priest (and Claremont before both of them) had touched upon so to continuously push this false "EJD was to blame for my hatred of BP & Storm as married couple" meme as something worthy of recognition and support really renders your argument null and void.

No one else uses such a hackneyed argument to opt out of reading about characters but I've come to accept the fact that some X-readers live in an alternate reality where common sense and a balanced appreciation for nuance in well written stories are rarely appreciated as long as their favored character gets to strike a pose and shoot directed lightning bolts at her former husband or talk smack about him in general.

They were never going to come back and they were very loudmouth about their resentment of the union. I think the two characters should have remained good friends, though. Also, I feel the break up happened in a way that was unseemly and unbefitting of either character. It was beneath the dignity of both characters.


And I say good riddance to such fickle readers who use triviliaties to cloud the true nature of the divisive and bigoted nature because let's face it, a lot of the hatred that the marriage of T'Challa and Ororo generated amongst some of these readers was purely racist in nature.

It's just unfortunate that some of the Black readership who joined the bandwagon were (and still are) blinded to this reality on some straight up Stockholm Syndrome ish.

T'Challa and Wakanda are being portrayed with the dignity that should always have been their portion in the 616 MU if not for the deconstructionist efforts to destroy both concepts by the likes of Jonathan Maberry via Doomwar and every single X-writer who disrespected the marriage during Reginald Hudlin's BP run all the way through to AvX and beyond.

So for the time being, most BP enthusiasts will continue to watch events as they develop in the hope that Ororo is given a true opportunity to grow as a character after having been devalued by the very office that claimed to have such "Big Plans" for her post AvX.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 07:55:00 pm by Salustrade »

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1261 on: May 17, 2014, 08:25:20 pm »
Y'know, looking at those 3 panels drawn by Dave Cockrum really made me regret that john byrne took over the The Uncanny X-Men title because now I appreciate his drawings.   Mr. Cockrum was brilliant in conveying mood and he could really draw females very well.  ;)

Offline Salustrade

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1262 on: May 17, 2014, 08:31:32 pm »
Y'know, looking at those 3 panels drawn by Dave Cockrum really made me regret that john byrne took over the The Uncanny X-Men title because now I appreciate his drawings.   Mr. Cockrum was brilliant in conveying mood and he could really draw females very well.  ;)

Mr. Cockrum was definitely on the ball.

His work had an almost Gil Kane type quality to it.

Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1263 on: May 17, 2014, 10:25:00 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field. The two of them should have gotten to know each other as ADULTS better over the period of at least a year. The whole business about EJD butchering Storm's character his "Storm" mini stands as proof of that. To accept that mini as part of a build up to an Ororo/T'challa marriage isn't going to fly as the only real thing it accomplished was devaluing Storm's character. It alienated Storm's fanbase...and with good reason. It only served to turn people who really know and love the character, Ororo, against the marriage.  As far as I'm concerned, that was an alternate reality Storm EJD wrote there.


But here's the thing.

I'm yet to read of a single Black panther fan who endorsed or accepted EJD's mini series or the retcon that it embodied so the real question that should be asked as to why said retconwas authorized should really have been addressed towards Marvel Editorial themselves as opposed to segments of X-fandom accusing Reginald Hudlin of being a racist just because he married two of the 616 MU's most prominent African characters.

Your repeatedly harping on about the EJD Storm mini as if it's the primary catalyst that's sustained the hatred aimed at T'Challa even post AvX doesn't even begin to justify the level of lunatic vitriol that Mr hudlin has had aimed in his direction for years post his writing of the Black Panther solo book and it definitely doesn't justify the online trolling and abuse that BP enthusiasts have had to put up with on forums like CBR in particular and other similarly themed forums in general.

EJD's Storm mini is just the convenient excuse some like to pose as their primary reason for not supporting the union between these two magnificent characters so let's not mince words here.

2) Storm was very much the unreachable goddess. Its not her fault if Dr. Doom, Dracula and Loki were in awe of her and wanted her for themselves as a lover. As you can see, she didn't end up with either of them. In fact, she told Loki off. You can't fault those men for having good taste in women.  ;D




As evidenced in the scan above, Ororo was never a "goddess" by any stretch of the imagination.

According to Charles Xavier, Ororo was merely a mutant who he expected to leave behind her "fantasy" life in Africa where she was revered and appreciated by the people there, to join him on a journey to the USA, where she'd be expected to lend her powers to the defense of a world that "feared and hated mutants."

Thus began Ororo's following the lead of others who seemed to think that they knew what was best for her and it's a trend that's continued all the way to the present day where Storm is portrayed in the X-books as someone who can't make any decisions without referring to the counsel of others.

The fact that the same fans who claimed to have a problem with T'Challa and Ororo being married still celebrate "what might have been" when characters like Doom and Dracula were in the frame says a lot to me about where some of these fans true alliegance lies in more ways than one but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because it's pretty clear to all but the willingly deluded that Marvel Editorial really messed up when they allowed former X-Office editor, Nick Lowe to run the X-franchise into the ground with his divisively mean spirited and short sighted agenda.

3) I recall John Byrne stating on a message board (IIRC) or an interview that as far as he was concerned, Storm's and BP
s relationship ended as children. He stated that Storm was too good of a character to be in a relationship with BP, though he felt they could be friends. I vaguely remember this. That may be why nothing was explored further.


What?

You mean the same notoriously racist John Byrne?

Why would any self respecting comic book enthusiast take him seriously or even give any credence to his opinion?

Byrne's statements as to whatever relationship T'Challa and Ororo had (past, present and future) is manifestly irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion.

However, since a number of your posts on this forum have pointed to your stated belief that being paired with T'Challa "devalues" Ororo as a character it comes as no suprise to me that you'd quote John Byrne as some sort of support to your argument without seeing the irony in Byrne's racism as a possible influence on his opinion of T'Challa as a character of substance.

That said, I'm going to defend Claremont, here. When he came on board to write the X-Men, the second generation team was already put together. He did not write Giant-Sized X-Men #1. It was an international team of mutants, so they had one from Africa, one from Ireland, one from Germany, and one from Canada with Cyclops leading the team.


I'm sure the irony of the fact that Storm was the only mutant of African descent on a team that was (at the time) 99% ALL WHITE is totally lost on you.             

During his run on X-Treme X-Men, Claremont took over the writing of Bishop. I remember him stating on a message board that he felt Bishop could join the ranks of the premier X-Men like Storm and Wolverine with the right development. He sought to move Bishop in that direction. He made him like a cop, boosted his telepathic defenses to such an extent that his mental defenses were second only to Storm's and Sage's on the team. He also gave Bishop a power boost by adding on new dimensions to Bishop's powers. Originally, Bishop could only absorb energy and throw it back at you as an energy blast. When CC got ahold of him, he enabled Bishop to use the energy to increase his physical strength, stamina and reaction speed. He also tried to establish Bishop as being one of the most formidable X-Men/mutants around. He established that since Bishop was from the future, he's had the opportunity to study the mutants in the present to learn of their battle strengths and weaknesses and to be able to take advantage of those weaknesses to use against them in battle. Claremont tends to write women and characters of color as premier characters. Characters of color were never just tokens under CC's pen.


None of which changes the fact that post Chris Claremont, the X-books are still bereft of any non-white characters in positions of authority or meaninful leadership roles. (especially Black male mutants)

Where is Bishop now?

4) It was not that CC could not be bothered by giving Storm a relationship interest that stopped him from giving her a BF for years, it was just a part of her character. Not only was she very much the unreachable goddess, this is a woman who also kept her emotions in check for fear of affecting weather patterns as they echo her emotions. The whole unreachable goddess thing played hand-in-hand with her keeping her emotions on a tight leash for fear of causing damage. It is my assertion that keeping her single played on that dynamic.


And that's a supposition (on your part) that hasn't exactly been borne out to any real meaningful effect or impact within the 616 MU.

Has Thor ever exhibited any problems controlling the weather when in the throes of passion? But then, I suppose that as an actual mythological deity as opposed to a mere mortal plasking make believe "goddess" he actually has more of a handle on things of this nature than the Windrider would.


Me:

I agree that it would have been both in-character AND mature for both Storm and Black Panther to take some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX, however, keeping the two as a married couple would have been a BAD idea. It alienated too much of the readership.


Keeping both characters married only alienated readers, writers and editors who were biased against the union of both characters right from day one so citing this supposedly alienated readership is quite disingenuous to say the least.

You may not realise this yourself, but based on conversations that I've had with many a BP enthusiast posting both here as well as on CBR a lot of us where Storm enthusiasts as well long before her link to T'Challa was revisited first by Priest and then Reginald Hudlin so I personally find this continual reference to Storm's X-fanbase as being the only one in existance that matters, exceedingly disrespectful but fully to be expected from a fanbase that actively supports and endorses active discrimination against anyone whom they percieve as not being sufficiently submissive to the X-Agenda.

As I've stated time and again, too much damage was done to Storm's character at the beginning of the whole ordeal (going all the way back to that HORRIBLE mini) to prop up BP and the marriage thing that sent her fanbase running for the hills.


And I stay refuting this assertion of yours because I'm yet to see where one writers misstep supported by editorial falling aslep at the wheel, justifies the wholesale vitriol that was (and still is) aimed at a writer who had nothing to do with EJD's mini series.

Christopher revisited the relationship during his tenure as BP scribe but was not allowed to develop it further by the selfsame Marvel Editorial who acquiesced to Mr Hudlin's proposed storyline to revisit what Priest (and Claremont before both of them) had touched upon so to continuously push this false "EJD was to blame for my hatred of BP & Storm as married couple" meme as something worthy of recognition and support really renders your argument null and void.

No one else uses such a hackneyed argument to opt out of reading about characters but I've come to accept the fact that some X-readers live in an alternate reality where common sense and a balanced appreciation for nuance in well written stories are rarely appreciated as long as their favored character gets to strike a pose and shoot directed lightning bolts at her former husband or talk smack about him in general.

They were never going to come back and they were very loudmouth about their resentment of the union. I think the two characters should have remained good friends, though. Also, I feel the break up happened in a way that was unseemly and unbefitting of either character. It was beneath the dignity of both characters.


And I say good riddance to such fickle readers who use triviliaties to cloud the true nature of the divisive and bigoted nature because let's face it, a lot of the hatred that the marriage of T'Challa and Ororo generated amongst some of these readers was purely racist in nature.

It's just unfortunate that some of the Black readership who joined the bandwagon were (and still are) blinded to this reality on some straight up Stockholm Syndrome ish.

T'Challa and Wakanda are being portrayed with the dignity that should always have been their portion in the 616 MU if not for the deconstructionist efforts to destroy both concepts by the likes of Jonathan Maberry via Doomwar and every single X-writer who disrespected the marriage during Reginald Hudlin's BP run all the way through to AvX and beyond.

So for the time being, most BP enthusiasts will continue to watch events as they develop in the hope that Ororo is given a true opportunity to grow as a character after having been devalued by the very office that claimed to have such "Big Plans" for her post AvX.



Offline moneyspider

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1264 on: May 18, 2014, 01:45:56 pm »


 ??? :-[  :-\ :)

Logan hit it and quit it. Great Job Marvel!!!



 8) The "RoLo" in the hay is over.


Exactly...and there was no wall to wall X-Fan wailing about Ororo looking weak and out of character and subservient when she said :"...Logan, please!" as she kissed him, begged him to stay...and he walks out on her anyway. While she's very distraught.


My take for what little it might be worth, my Dear Brother, Supreme...
The "X-Fan" couldn't care less about Ororo. I say, the "X-Fan" could not care less about Ororo, about Bishop, about Synch, about any so-called Black mutant. Back in the day when Ororo was their "patchwork quilt" everything, anything except so-called Black she was all the rage.

Take the so-called Black male mutant Prodigy. The "X-Fan" treated his character with the same disdain accorded any so-called Black mutant...especially the male. It wasn't until Prodigy was revealed to be very, very; very bi-sexual (just planting a smooch on another male's lips without warning or proper invitation), that the "X-Fan" and in particular, the seX-Man Fan, showed interest in him.

Ororo and every so-called Black reader of Marvel Comics had to be punished for audacious act of lifting Ororo above anything the seX-Men writers had ever done with her character when she was elevated to Queen of Almighty Wakanda, wife of T'Challa, the Black Panther and the "most important mutant" on Earth. seX-Men fans and creators demanded satisfaction. The Marriage was anulled, Storm told everybody who could read that T'Challa wasn't "chit" and if a person couldn't read, they couldn't miss her punching him in the face. This act accomplished, Ororo couldn't wait to spread her legs for nasty, hairy, stinky Logan.

And there were many - some of them in our own circle - who didn't see "RoLo" as a problem. Indeed, they supported the move. And now, it's not Ororo "humiliating" T'Challa but rather Ororo being dogged by a troll. She went from a Queen sitting a throne to a "nut bucket" content to sit in in her tiny chair while her beloved troll sat at the big desk. And now, having tired of her, the troll walks away from her leaving Ororo in much the same emotional state she was in when the other "love of her life" Forge walked out on her. And people prefer this Ororo to Queen Ororo, wife of the Black Panther and most important mutant on Earth.

I hope Ororo's humiliation continues. I imagine the seX-Man fantatics want to see their Ororo/Yuck-io lesbian fantasy realized before Wolverine turns up with some very hot white female character with whom he is having a hot relationship the likes of which Ororo could only have dreamed of. The hot white female character will put the smack down on Ororo leaving her in a shivering heap watching Wolvering walking away from her once again with her conqueror on his arm.


You actually want the humiliation of a fictional black woman to continue? Instead of wanting it to end and for these white writers and white editors and Hispanic editors-in-chief and Hispanic chief creative officers to start writing and showcasing fictional black characters well, you want the humiliation of a fictional black woman to CONTINUE? WHY?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 02:09:45 pm by moneyspider »

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1265 on: May 18, 2014, 03:44:42 pm »
Aside from the coded,  racial heckling the post-Hudlin writer's storytelling reveals, another viewpoint could be that here is this African American man who earns 1000 times more money than all of those salaries of a comicbook writer, comicbook editor, comicbook editor-in-chief, comicbook chief creative officer... combined.  Maybe those guys feel intimidated and need to get his attention to not feel so... inadequate.   Hanging on a string by demonstrating to what little power they've got left.

Offline JRCarter

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1266 on: May 18, 2014, 06:23:18 pm »
A few things:

1) The Storm/Black Panther marriage was rushed. It came way out from left field. The two of them should have gotten to know each other as ADULTS better over the period of at least a year. The whole business about EJD butchering Storm's character his "Storm" mini stands as proof of that. To accept that mini as part of a build up to an Ororo/T'challa marriage isn't going to fly as the only real thing it accomplished was devaluing Storm's character. It alienated Storm's fanbase...and with good reason. It only served to turn people who really know and love the character, Ororo, against the marriage.  As far as I'm concerned, that was an alternate reality Storm EJD wrote there.


But here's the thing.

I'm yet to read of a single Black panther fan who endorsed or accepted EJD's mini series or the retcon that it embodied so the real question that should be asked as to why said retconwas authorized should really have been addressed towards Marvel Editorial themselves as opposed to segments of X-fandom accusing Reginald Hudlin of being a racist just because he married two of the 616 MU's most prominent African characters.

Your repeatedly harping on about the EJD Storm mini as if it's the primary catalyst that's sustained the hatred aimed at T'Challa even post AvX doesn't even begin to justify the level of lunatic vitriol that Mr hudlin has had aimed in his direction for years post his writing of the Black Panther solo book and it definitely doesn't justify the online trolling and abuse that BP enthusiasts have had to put up with on forums like CBR in particular and other similarly themed forums in general.

EJD's Storm mini is just the convenient excuse some like to pose as their primary reason for not supporting the union between these two magnificent characters so let's not mince words here.

2) Storm was very much the unreachable goddess. Its not her fault if Dr. Doom, Dracula and Loki were in awe of her and wanted her for themselves as a lover. As you can see, she didn't end up with either of them. In fact, she told Loki off. You can't fault those men for having good taste in women.  ;D




As evidenced in the scan above, Ororo was never a "goddess" by any stretch of the imagination.

According to Charles Xavier, Ororo was merely a mutant who he expected to leave behind her "fantasy" life in Africa where she was revered and appreciated by the people there, to join him on a journey to the USA, where she'd be expected to lend her powers to the defense of a world that "feared and hated mutants."

Thus began Ororo's following the lead of others who seemed to think that they knew what was best for her and it's a trend that's continued all the way to the present day where Storm is portrayed in the X-books as someone who can't make any decisions without referring to the counsel of others.

The fact that the same fans who claimed to have a problem with T'Challa and Ororo being married still celebrate "what might have been" when characters like Doom and Dracula were in the frame says a lot to me about where some of these fans true alliegance lies in more ways than one but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because it's pretty clear to all but the willingly deluded that Marvel Editorial really messed up when they allowed former X-Office editor, Nick Lowe to run the X-franchise into the ground with his divisively mean spirited and short sighted agenda.

3) I recall John Byrne stating on a message board (IIRC) or an interview that as far as he was concerned, Storm's and BP
s relationship ended as children. He stated that Storm was too good of a character to be in a relationship with BP, though he felt they could be friends. I vaguely remember this. That may be why nothing was explored further.


What?

You mean the same notoriously racist John Byrne?

Why would any self respecting comic book enthusiast take him seriously or even give any credence to his opinion?

Byrne's statements as to whatever relationship T'Challa and Ororo had (past, present and future) is manifestly irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion.

However, since a number of your posts on this forum have pointed to your stated belief that being paired with T'Challa "devalues" Ororo as a character it comes as no suprise to me that you'd quote John Byrne as some sort of support to your argument without seeing the irony in Byrne's racism as a possible influence on his opinion of T'Challa as a character of substance.

That said, I'm going to defend Claremont, here. When he came on board to write the X-Men, the second generation team was already put together. He did not write Giant-Sized X-Men #1. It was an international team of mutants, so they had one from Africa, one from Ireland, one from Germany, and one from Canada with Cyclops leading the team.


I'm sure the irony of the fact that Storm was the only mutant of African descent on a team that was (at the time) 99% ALL WHITE is totally lost on you.             

During his run on X-Treme X-Men, Claremont took over the writing of Bishop. I remember him stating on a message board that he felt Bishop could join the ranks of the premier X-Men like Storm and Wolverine with the right development. He sought to move Bishop in that direction. He made him like a cop, boosted his telepathic defenses to such an extent that his mental defenses were second only to Storm's and Sage's on the team. He also gave Bishop a power boost by adding on new dimensions to Bishop's powers. Originally, Bishop could only absorb energy and throw it back at you as an energy blast. When CC got ahold of him, he enabled Bishop to use the energy to increase his physical strength, stamina and reaction speed. He also tried to establish Bishop as being one of the most formidable X-Men/mutants around. He established that since Bishop was from the future, he's had the opportunity to study the mutants in the present to learn of their battle strengths and weaknesses and to be able to take advantage of those weaknesses to use against them in battle. Claremont tends to write women and characters of color as premier characters. Characters of color were never just tokens under CC's pen.


None of which changes the fact that post Chris Claremont, the X-books are still bereft of any non-white characters in positions of authority or meaninful leadership roles. (especially Black male mutants)

Where is Bishop now?

4) It was not that CC could not be bothered by giving Storm a relationship interest that stopped him from giving her a BF for years, it was just a part of her character. Not only was she very much the unreachable goddess, this is a woman who also kept her emotions in check for fear of affecting weather patterns as they echo her emotions. The whole unreachable goddess thing played hand-in-hand with her keeping her emotions on a tight leash for fear of causing damage. It is my assertion that keeping her single played on that dynamic.


And that's a supposition (on your part) that hasn't exactly been borne out to any real meaningful effect or impact within the 616 MU.

Has Thor ever exhibited any problems controlling the weather when in the throes of passion? But then, I suppose that as an actual mythological deity as opposed to a mere mortal plasking make believe "goddess" he actually has more of a handle on things of this nature than the Windrider would.


Me:

I agree that it would have been both in-character AND mature for both Storm and Black Panther to take some time out to reflect over what happened during AvX, however, keeping the two as a married couple would have been a BAD idea. It alienated too much of the readership.


Keeping both characters married only alienated readers, writers and editors who were biased against the union of both characters right from day one so citing this supposedly alienated readership is quite disingenuous to say the least.

You may not realise this yourself, but based on conversations that I've had with many a BP enthusiast posting both here as well as on CBR a lot of us where Storm enthusiasts as well long before her link to T'Challa was revisited first by Priest and then Reginald Hudlin so I personally find this continual reference to Storm's X-fanbase as being the only one in existance that matters, exceedingly disrespectful but fully to be expected from a fanbase that actively supports and endorses active discrimination against anyone whom they percieve as not being sufficiently submissive to the X-Agenda.

As I've stated time and again, too much damage was done to Storm's character at the beginning of the whole ordeal (going all the way back to that HORRIBLE mini) to prop up BP and the marriage thing that sent her fanbase running for the hills.


And I stay refuting this assertion of yours because I'm yet to see where one writers misstep supported by editorial falling aslep at the wheel, justifies the wholesale vitriol that was (and still is) aimed at a writer who had nothing to do with EJD's mini series.

Christopher revisited the relationship during his tenure as BP scribe but was not allowed to develop it further by the selfsame Marvel Editorial who acquiesced to Mr Hudlin's proposed storyline to revisit what Priest (and Claremont before both of them) had touched upon so to continuously push this false "EJD was to blame for my hatred of BP & Storm as married couple" meme as something worthy of recognition and support really renders your argument null and void.

No one else uses such a hackneyed argument to opt out of reading about characters but I've come to accept the fact that some X-readers live in an alternate reality where common sense and a balanced appreciation for nuance in well written stories are rarely appreciated as long as their favored character gets to strike a pose and shoot directed lightning bolts at her former husband or talk smack about him in general.

They were never going to come back and they were very loudmouth about their resentment of the union. I think the two characters should have remained good friends, though. Also, I feel the break up happened in a way that was unseemly and unbefitting of either character. It was beneath the dignity of both characters.


And I say good riddance to such fickle readers who use triviliaties to cloud the true nature of the divisive and bigoted nature because let's face it, a lot of the hatred that the marriage of T'Challa and Ororo generated amongst some of these readers was purely racist in nature.

It's just unfortunate that some of the Black readership who joined the bandwagon were (and still are) blinded to this reality on some straight up Stockholm Syndrome ish.

T'Challa and Wakanda are being portrayed with the dignity that should always have been their portion in the 616 MU if not for the deconstructionist efforts to destroy both concepts by the likes of Jonathan Maberry via Doomwar and every single X-writer who disrespected the marriage during Reginald Hudlin's BP run all the way through to AvX and beyond.

So for the time being, most BP enthusiasts will continue to watch events as they develop in the hope that Ororo is given a true opportunity to grow as a character after having been devalued by the very office that claimed to have such "Big Plans" for her post AvX.



Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1267 on: May 19, 2014, 09:52:00 am »
The panel that was posted by Moneyspider made me feel alot better that Marvel isnt getting a dime out of me. So far I have been giving support to the smaller indie gents. Already purchased 2 books by Redjack and Brandon Thomas. The same will be done for Easton.

Hell there is a small comic set named "Unstoppable Comics"

http://unstoppablecomics.com/

They have a kickstarter where depending on what amount you pay you will get a copy of a video game for one of their characters.

The Stormchasers Video Game from Unstoppable Comics


Are you kidding and this is an indie company?

Game needs some work but this is the sh*t we as people of color are missing out.
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1268 on: May 19, 2014, 10:05:14 am »
http://unstoppablecomics.com/

They have a kickstarter where depending on what amount you pay you will get a copy of a video game for one of their characters.

The Stormchasers Video Game from Unstoppable Comics

Are you kidding and this is an indie company?

Game needs some work but this is the sh*t we as people of color are missing out.




I'm impressed at the way lighting is handled in that game; where the light source is cast from above and the way cast shadows lay off the characters. Nice.   

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1269 on: May 20, 2014, 07:05:45 pm »
I am going to say this again...

...EJD WROTE AN EXCELLENT MINI REGARDING THE MORE REALISTIC INTERPRETATION OF BP AND ORORO'S RELATIONSHIP GIVEN THE NEW [ AND FAR MORE REALISTIC, AND VASTLY VASTLY OVERDUE ] INVINCIBLE SIGNIFICANCE THAT HUDLIN GAVE TO WAKANDA AS THE UNDISPUTED, UNDEFEATED, UNTIED, PREMIER HUMAN CIVILIZATION IN EVERY REGARD IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY.

The issues that people who dislike the mini tend to bring up is the devaluation of Storm as a character. When pressed about exactly what did they mean by "devaluation", they tend to assert their belief that Ororo should have been the leading light visavis TChalla at any and every time, ever since they first met.


This reasoning is solidly in line with the old MU which saw fit to comprehensively devalue TChalla in every regard and kept Wakanda as a largely backward nation that got its first taste of supertech due to TChalla traveling abroad and learning in The White Man's Universities then bringing said manna from heaven back to Wakanda...then displaying the combination of TChalla's native supergenius with the ubereducation he received from the best [ White ] universities of the world in order to propel the backward but psirigtual savages of Wakanda into the modern era of supertech.

Let's skip the racist underlying concept of all of that.

Nevermind. Let's NOT do that. Let's acknowledge that and kick all that rubbish in the teeth.

Ya know, exactly like RH did.

And EJD took to writing his minseries using the new official history sanctioned by Marvel Editorial which Reginald Hudlin wrote for both Wakanda and TChalla.

Remember...RH is the sole creator of the new, vastly more respectful, concept of taking the idea of African countries which already lead the world in all areas of civilization and spiritual development, and then hypothesizing the kind of supercivilization that would have resulted in the modern era had our premier African civilizations never yielded our lead over the rest of the world.

It's that civilization which EJD wrote about. And truthfully, looking at TChalla since his introduction in the F4...since his time under CJP who did the work for TChalla and Wakanda that was laid down as the foundation for the character since his introduction fighting and defeating the F4, using supertech, and more...Priest, EJD and RH wrote the TChalla that we all should have known from day one.

That TChalla meeting the still developing, as yet-novice Ororo in his capacity as Heir To The Throne Of The Greatest Civilization of the World And Pride of Africa...would result in exactly the kinds of things that EJD wrote. And wrote very well, indeed. Very, very well.

Whoa. Ororo and TChalla had sex at age 13-16. So what? Cast a look at America's youth. We've been doing that for DECADES. I lost my virginity in that exact same age range, too.

Guess what else? From the AFRICAN general perspective, such activities ARE NOT looked at from the sometimes schizo American cultural perspective. The fans ranting and raving about that? Yeah...most of them are not only Americans, almost 100% of them would fall into the following categories:

1. They don't know much or anything about TChalla at all...and of the few who do know anything of TChalla, most of them dislike him. Most...not all, but most...disliked him due to the shabby third rate way that Marvel has routinely treated TChalla. Hell, I can't be mad at them. I'd be mad if my ace female heroine was matched with that moron who ran around, talked a lot and bled even more in PANTHER'S RAGE, or got beat up by nonsuperpowered teenage thugs, or basically was a capital bee-eye-itch throughout almost every incarnation except for when Gillis CJP Thomas Mcduffie and Hudlin got their mitts on him. But even before that? They, as a whole, already dislike TChalla/Black Men of power authority independence, capable of defeating White Heroes and not kowtowing to their fantasy heroes/Ororo being with anybody not a hero in the X-Verse.

2. Most already don't like Black heroes except for Ororo anyway. And they liked Ororo because she was pitched as NOT BEING BLACK so they could look passed her Blackness and claim her as the exotic beauty for White and any other non-Black non-mutant male as an extension of their own inner desires distinctly second rate to the White alpha females, and perpetual wallflower-mammy role good for an occasional lightning bolt and rescuing.

3. The haters were largely wholly resistant to AND ignorant of RH's TChalla. Much of the LCBRD were already up in arms regarding RH because RH had already had T'Chaka beat down Cap and carry him off in HIS VERY FIRST ISSUE [ which sold 72k copies or so, which is a world record for a nonWhite lead male hero, thanks ]. The addition of Ororo [ who was NOT DOING A DAYAMN THING IN THE X-BOOKS, THANKS ] simply rankled them further. Because...let's not mince words here...most of them were a combination of:

a. Racist

b. Already indoctrinated by Marvel to dislike TChalla via their shabby treatment of TChalla and all characters like him [ remember how horribly they had Luke Cage talking...FOR DECADES? ]

c. Ignorant

d. Indoctrinated with the belief that comics are primarily White male power fantasies and all books should reflect revere and kowtow to this reality

e. Did I mention racist?


So yeah. The very idea that TChalla and Ororo might even be in a relationship is heatedly opposed by the very same LCBRD who oftentimes claim that they would have been more accepting of THE MARRIAGE had RH not "rushed" matters, etc etc.

No. By and large they WOULD NOT do so.

For every Rutog, Princesa, and Maxine there are 18 Lovecrafties...if you pitch primarily to THE SAME fanboy populace. If, however, you reach out to the VASTLY LARGER AND SUPERIOR IN NUMBER BOOK READING DEMOGRAPHIC, you would discover and retain large portions of the same demographic that propelled Blade to superstardom as they would also love TChalla. The same people who loved TChalla on THE AVENGERS cartoon series would love TChalla in a comic book, too.

However.

By and large, THERE IS NO CIRCUMSTANCE that would appease the LCBRD,[  which is a very very narrow readership ] because THEY DO NOT EVER ACCEPT THE IDEA OF A BLACK SUPERCOUPLE WITH GREATER POWER THAN ANY WHITE COUPLE OR SINGLE WHITE MALE HERO. Period. Because they're racist and privileged. Period. And they feel that we have encroached upon their sacrosanct power fantasy territory.

I don't think that we encroached upon their sacrosanct power fantasy. I think that they have never even considered that people of color and "minorities"  have all had our own superhero fantasies, and compounded that ignorance with the arrogance of privilege and their own natural cape fantasies and elevated their supercape ideas as the single sole existing power fantasy. Or at least...that's my hypothesis.

So. I know some of our HEF Leading Ladies thought the EJD mini was abominable. Clearly, Rutog thought there was some solid reason for criticizing The Marriage handling and execution. Okay.

That's a whole lot different than being in opposition to The Marriage from jump...because the very idea of Ororo marrying TChalla [ and being permanently removed from her mammy/fetish object/wallflower role in the X-Verse ] was appalling to them.

Now. I like most of the dissenters here on HEF. I like their posts overall. I especially like Salustrade, Rutog, Maxine, Princesa etc [ apologies to whoever I missed ].

However. I think we can revisit EJD's mini and make our specific positions on the matter clear. Very few dissenting positions actually work out to disliking the marriage, so we can jettison that discussion...unless yall wanna scrap about that topic, too.

I think EJD's work was a triumph. The fact that it pissed off so many of the LCBRD is proof that it's a great read. As I recall, most of EJD's readership and mopst of the people who read prose fiction who also read this EJD miniseries had THE EXACT OOPOSITE OPINION of the haters of EJD's work...and they outnumbered the haters, to boot.

Unfortunately, they aren't consistent comic book consumers...but with repeated pitches to them? Enough of them and their children would become so. And we'd see a slow, steady, consistent switch expansion and change in readership demographic [ which is SORELY NEEDED, imo ].

So yeah. Somebody open up a threado n EJD's mini if yall wanna throwdown about it or discuss it rationally as we are wont to do.

SUPREME ILLUMINATI= PRO EJD MINI.

Who's with me? Who's against me?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:40:55 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1270 on: May 20, 2014, 07:55:04 pm »
Well if Marvel does go ahead with the reboot,  all of this might not matter.   Wakanda, BP/Storm's history,  even their own personal history,  powers,  etc.  Could all be wiped clean and started over again making all these debates moot.

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1271 on: May 20, 2014, 10:57:07 pm »
I am going to say this again...

...EJD WROTE AN EXCELLENT MINI REGARDING THE MORE REALISTIC INTERPRETATION OF BP AND ORORO'S RELATIONSHIP GIVEN THE NEW [ AND FAR MORE REALISTIC, AND VASTLY VASTLY OVERDUE ] INVINCIBLE SIGNIFICANCE THAT HUDLIN GAVE TO WAKANDA AS THE UNDISPUTED, UNDEFEATED, UNTIED, PREMIER HUMAN CIVILIZATION IN EVERY REGARD IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY.

The issues that people who dislike the mini tend to bring up is the devaluation of Storm as a character. When pressed about exactly what did they mean by "devaluation", they tend to assert their belief that Ororo should have been the leading light visavis TChalla at any and every time, ever since they first met.


This reasoning is solidly in line with the old MU which saw fit to comprehensively devalue TChalla in every regard and kept Wakanda as a largely backward nation that got its first taste of supertech due to TChalla traveling abroad and learning in The White Man's Universities then bringing said manna from heaven back to Wakanda...then displaying the combination of TChalla's native supergenius with the ubereducation he received from the best [ White ] universities of the world in order to propel the backward but psirigtual savages of Wakanda into the modern era of supertech.

Let's skip the racist underlying concept of all of that.

Nevermind. Let's NOT do that. Let's acknowledge that and kick all that rubbish in the teeth.

Ya know, exactly like RH did.

And EJD took to writing his minseries using the new official history sanctioned by Marvel Editorial which Reginald Hudlin wrote for both Wakanda and TChalla.

Remember...RH is the sole creator of the new, vastly more respectful, historically more embracing of the premier civilizations of Africa and then asking oneself what kind of supercivilization would have resulted in the modern era had our premier African civilizations never yielded our lead over the rest of the world.

It's that civilization which EJD wrote about. And truthfully, looking at TChalla since his introduction in the F4...since his time under CJP who did the work for TChalla and Wakanda that was laid down as the foundation for the character since his introduction fighting and defeating the F4, using supertech, and more...EJD and RH wrote the TChalla that we all should have known from day one.

That TChalla meeting the still developing, as yet-novice Ororo in his capacity as Heir To The Throne Of The Greatest Civilization of the World And Pride of Africa...would result in exactly the kinds of things that EJD wrote. And wrote very well, indeed. Very, very well.

Whoa. Ororo and TChalla had sex at age 13-16. So what? Cast a look at America's youth. We've been doing that for DECADES. I lost my virginity in that exact same age range, too.

Guess what else? From the AFRICAN general perspective, such activities ARE NOT looked at from the sometimes schizo American cultural perspective. The fans ranting and raving about that? Yeah...most of them are not only Americans, almost 100% of them would fall into the following categories:

1. They don't know much or anything about TChalla at all...and of the few who do know anything of TChalla, most of them dislike him. Most...not all, but most...disliked him due to the shabby third rate way that Marvel has routinely treated TChalla. Hell, I can't be mad at them. I'd be mad if my ace female heroine was matched with that moron who ran around, talked a lot and bled even more in PANTHER'S RAGE, or got beat up by nonsuperpowered teenage thugs, or basically was a capital bee-eye-itch throughout almost every incarnation except for when Gillis CJP Thomas Mcduffie and Hudlin got their mitts on him. But even before that? They, as a whole, already dislike TChalla/Black Men of power authority independence, capable of defeating White Heroes and not kowtowing to their fantasy heroes/Ororo being with anybody not a hero in the X-Verse.

2. Most already don't like Black heroes except for Ororo anyway. And they liked Ororo because she was pitched as NOT BEING BLACK so they could look passed her Blackness and claim her as the exotic beauty for White and any other non-Black non-mutant male as an extension of their own inner desires distinctly second rate to the White alpha females, and perpetual wallflower-mammy role good for an occasional lightning bolt and rescuing.

3. The haters were largely wholly resistant to AND ignorant of RH's TChalla. Much of the LCBRD were already up in arms regarding RH because RH had already had T'Chaka beat down Cap and carry him off in HIS VERY FIRST ISSUE [ which sold 72k copies or so, which is a world record for a nonWhite lead male hero, thanks ]. The addition of Ororo [ who was NOT DOING A DAYAMN THING IN THE X-BOOKS, THANKS ] simply rankled them further. Because...let's not mince words here...most of them were a combination of:

a. Racist

b. Already indoctrinated by Marvel to dislike TChalla via their shabby treatment of TChalla and all characters like him [ remember how horribly they had Luke Cage talking...FOR DECADES? ]

c. Ignorant

d. Indoctrinated with the belief that comics are primarily White male power fantasies and all books should reflect revere and kowtow to this reality

e. Did I mention racist?


So yeah. The very idea that TChalla and Ororo might even be in a relationship is heatedly opposed by the very same LCBRD who oftentimes claim that they would have been more accepting of THE MARRIAGE had RH not "rushed" matters, etc etc.

No. By and large they WOULD NOT do so.

For every Rutog, Princesa, and Maxine there are 8 Lovecrafties...if you pitch primarily to THE SAME fanboy populace. If, however, you reach out to the VASTLY LARGER AND SUPERIOR IN NUMBER BOOK READING DEMOGRAPHIC, youhe same people who liked Blade would love TChalla. The same people who loved TChalla on THE AVENGERS cartoon series would love TChalla in a comic book, too.

However.

By and large, THERE IS NO CIRCUMSTANCE that would appease the LCBRD,[  which is a very very narrow readership ] because THEY DO NOT EVER ACCEPT THE IDEA OF A BLACK SUPERCOUPLE WITH GREATER POWER THAN ANY WHITE COUPLE OR SINGLE WHITE MALE HERO. Period. Because they're racist and privileged. Period. And they feel that we have encroached upon their sacrosanct power fantasy territory.



So. I know some of our HEF Leading Ladies thought the EJD mini was abominable. Clearly, Rutog thought there was some solid reason for criticizing The Marriage handling and execution. Okay.

That's a whole lot different than being in opposition to The Marriage from jump...because the very idea of Ororo marrying TChalla [ and being permanently removed from her mammy/fetish object/wallflower role in the X-Verse ] was appalling to them.

Now. I like most of the dissenters here on HEF. I like their posts overall. I especially like Salustrade, Rutog, Maxine, Princesa etc [ apologies to whoever I missed ].

However. I think we can revisit EJD's mini and make our specific positions on the matter clear. Very few dissenting positions actually work out to disliking the marriage, so we can jettison that discussion...unless yall wanna scrap about that topic, too.

I think EJD's work was a triumph. The fact that it pissed off so many of the LCBRD is proof that it's a great read. As I recall, most of EJD's readership and mopst of the people who read prose fiction who also read this EJD miniseries had THE EXACT OOPOSITE OPINION of the haters of EJD's work...and they outnumbered the haters, to boot.

Unfortunately, they aren't consistent comic book consumers...but with repeated pitches to them? Enough of them and their children would become so. And we'd see a slow, steady, consistent switch expansion and change in readership demographic [ which is SORELY NEEDED, imo ].

So yeah. Somebody open up a threado n EJD's mini if yall wanna throwdown about it or discuss it rationally as we are wont to do.

SUPREME ILLUMINATI= PRO EJD MINI.

Who's with me? Who's against me?


Whassup Brotha Supreme Illuminati.

To me, it's not really a matter of who's with or against you, but more of respecting the different interpretations of T'Challa and Ororo's first meeting as written by Chris Claremont and Eric Jerome Dickey respectively.

Chris Claremont's version of their original meeting was in no way disrespectful of T'Challa as a character or Wakanda as a concept and in fact, showed that the meeting of the two young characters had a positive impact on both that was fully expressed in the panels below...






Ororo was portrayed as a young African woman grown strong in her sense of self and the usage of her powers to help others in need of assistance and it goes without saying that young T'Challa was shown to be quite capable of holding his own against a much larger opponent.

However, it was never in doubt that Ororo's decision to intervene on T'Challa's behalf was a heroic move on her part that revealed a strong moral center and attendant abhorrence for injustice.

The short saga written by Claremont was ended on a rather odd cliffhanger that said more to his desire to keep Ororo away from male involvement outside of the (at that time) nascent X-franchise, than to any real appreciation of the benefits inherent in utilizing the potential for great story possibilities within a shared creative universe.



Eric Jerome Dickey's retcon of the aforementioned meeting between the two characters completely turned the idea of both of them being equally dynamic in their own unique ways on its head by reducing Ororo into a damsel in distress whilst positioning T'Challa as an individual who did not require any assistance, and as far as I'm concerned, this was a very wrong and unnecessary retcon.

It was disrespectul to what Claremont had already established in his own short story and reeked of the type of freelance arrogance that many of us abhorred when Jonathan Maberry diminished T'Challa , Ororo and Wakanda during Doomwar.

Reginald Hudlin's accomplishments on his Black Panther run were borne out of his recognition and appreciation for Christopher J. Priest did in the run that preceded Mr Hudlin's and both esteemed writers obviously drew their collective inspiration for T'Challa and Wakanda from the foundations layed by the OG Archictects Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

EJD's retconning of T'Challa and Ororo's first encounter was less of a celebrsation of Wakanda's greatness but more of a millstone around the neck of Hudlin's magnum opus marriage of two of Marvel's most magnificent characters.

A millstone which pissed of genuine fans of Ororo and provided haters of T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept with ample opportunity to spew their racist bile under the cover of faux outrage at the diminishment of Ororo's character clearly depicted in EJD's mini.

The fact that as you put it "EJD's mini pissed of many of the LCBRD" was less of an indicator of any excellence on the part of his storytelling skills and more of a clesar pointer to the fact that his needless retcon was an exceedingly stupid reinterpretation of Ororo and T'Challa's first meeting that actually diminished both characters.

EJD inane and clumsy tamperings were completely superflous to T'Challa and Ororo's respective histories as characters and in no way added to the overarching backdrop of Wakanda's status within the 616 MU so I cannot in good concience accept EJD's work as any kind of acceptable addition to the BP mythos.

I read that mini and shook my head in serious dissapointment, so it goes without saying that I do not endorse EJD's Storm mini.

The retcon was unnecessary and ended up facilitating damage to Mr Hudlin's excellent work on the Black Panther mythos that most of us are still reeling from post AvX.

I couldn't care less about the opinions of haters but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to the actions of one of the primary contributors to a lot of the ill will that Mr Hudlin's excellent marriage of T'Challa and Ororo recieved.

EJD was the willing catalyst and Marvel Editorial where the lackadaisical facilitators.

And we the genuine enthusiasts, remain the collateral damage alongside what could (and should) have been.....




The above scans clearly illustrate to me that Mr Hudlin did not need to resort to diminishing Ororo as a character and it's quite obvious to me that he would have been a much better choice to have authored the Storm mini as opposed to EJD.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 11:22:36 pm by Salustrade »

Offline Battle

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1272 on: May 21, 2014, 04:49:17 am »
Well if Marvel does go ahead with the reboot,  all of this might not matter.   Wakanda, BP/Storm's history,  even their own personal history,  powers,  etc.  Could all be wiped clean and started over again making all these debates moot.





It's clear to me that you don't have a problem disclosing disappointing news about all of the black comicbook characters here at HEF.  If the material is published, printed and distributed, it's official. You're going to have a VERY hard time trying to convince those readers of terms like 'reboot' and 'retcon' when they already have it in their minds what is considered canon and what is not.  Wanna know why?
Because I was never one to be convinced of made-up, arbitrary terms like 'retcon' and 'reboot' when it comes to comicbooks.  Again, I see things from my point of view.

So, let the debates continue...

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1273 on: May 21, 2014, 07:15:15 pm »
I am going to say this again...

...EJD WROTE AN EXCELLENT MINI REGARDING THE MORE REALISTIC INTERPRETATION OF BP AND ORORO'S RELATIONSHIP GIVEN THE NEW [ AND FAR MORE REALISTIC, AND VASTLY VASTLY OVERDUE ] INVINCIBLE SIGNIFICANCE THAT HUDLIN GAVE TO WAKANDA AS THE UNDISPUTED, UNDEFEATED, UNTIED, PREMIER HUMAN CIVILIZATION IN EVERY REGARD IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF HUMANITY.

The issues that people who dislike the mini tend to bring up is the devaluation of Storm as a character. When pressed about exactly what did they mean by "devaluation", they tend to assert their belief that Ororo should have been the leading light visavis TChalla at any and every time, ever since they first met.


This reasoning is solidly in line with the old MU which saw fit to comprehensively devalue TChalla in every regard and kept Wakanda as a largely backward nation that got its first taste of supertech due to TChalla traveling abroad and learning in The White Man's Universities then bringing said manna from heaven back to Wakanda...then displaying the combination of TChalla's native supergenius with the ubereducation he received from the best [ White ] universities of the world in order to propel the backward but psirigtual savages of Wakanda into the modern era of supertech.

Let's skip the racist underlying concept of all of that.

Nevermind. Let's NOT do that. Let's acknowledge that and kick all that rubbish in the teeth.

Ya know, exactly like RH did.

And EJD took to writing his minseries using the new official history sanctioned by Marvel Editorial which Reginald Hudlin wrote for both Wakanda and TChalla.

Remember...RH is the sole creator of the new, vastly more respectful, historically more embracing of the premier civilizations of Africa and then asking oneself what kind of supercivilization would have resulted in the modern era had our premier African civilizations never yielded our lead over the rest of the world.

It's that civilization which EJD wrote about. And truthfully, looking at TChalla since his introduction in the F4...since his time under CJP who did the work for TChalla and Wakanda that was laid down as the foundation for the character since his introduction fighting and defeating the F4, using supertech, and more...EJD and RH wrote the TChalla that we all should have known from day one.

That TChalla meeting the still developing, as yet-novice Ororo in his capacity as Heir To The Throne Of The Greatest Civilization of the World And Pride of Africa...would result in exactly the kinds of things that EJD wrote. And wrote very well, indeed. Very, very well.

Whoa. Ororo and TChalla had sex at age 13-16. So what? Cast a look at America's youth. We've been doing that for DECADES. I lost my virginity in that exact same age range, too.

Guess what else? From the AFRICAN general perspective, such activities ARE NOT looked at from the sometimes schizo American cultural perspective. The fans ranting and raving about that? Yeah...most of them are not only Americans, almost 100% of them would fall into the following categories:

1. They don't know much or anything about TChalla at all...and of the few who do know anything of TChalla, most of them dislike him. Most...not all, but most...disliked him due to the shabby third rate way that Marvel has routinely treated TChalla. Hell, I can't be mad at them. I'd be mad if my ace female heroine was matched with that moron who ran around, talked a lot and bled even more in PANTHER'S RAGE, or got beat up by nonsuperpowered teenage thugs, or basically was a capital bee-eye-itch throughout almost every incarnation except for when Gillis CJP Thomas Mcduffie and Hudlin got their mitts on him. But even before that? They, as a whole, already dislike TChalla/Black Men of power authority independence, capable of defeating White Heroes and not kowtowing to their fantasy heroes/Ororo being with anybody not a hero in the X-Verse.

2. Most already don't like Black heroes except for Ororo anyway. And they liked Ororo because she was pitched as NOT BEING BLACK so they could look passed her Blackness and claim her as the exotic beauty for White and any other non-Black non-mutant male as an extension of their own inner desires distinctly second rate to the White alpha females, and perpetual wallflower-mammy role good for an occasional lightning bolt and rescuing.

3. The haters were largely wholly resistant to AND ignorant of RH's TChalla. Much of the LCBRD were already up in arms regarding RH because RH had already had T'Chaka beat down Cap and carry him off in HIS VERY FIRST ISSUE [ which sold 72k copies or so, which is a world record for a nonWhite lead male hero, thanks ]. The addition of Ororo [ who was NOT DOING A DAYAMN THING IN THE X-BOOKS, THANKS ] simply rankled them further. Because...let's not mince words here...most of them were a combination of:

a. Racist

b. Already indoctrinated by Marvel to dislike TChalla via their shabby treatment of TChalla and all characters like him [ remember how horribly they had Luke Cage talking...FOR DECADES? ]

c. Ignorant

d. Indoctrinated with the belief that comics are primarily White male power fantasies and all books should reflect revere and kowtow to this reality

e. Did I mention racist?


So yeah. The very idea that TChalla and Ororo might even be in a relationship is heatedly opposed by the very same LCBRD who oftentimes claim that they would have been more accepting of THE MARRIAGE had RH not "rushed" matters, etc etc.

No. By and large they WOULD NOT do so.

For every Rutog, Princesa, and Maxine there are 8 Lovecrafties...if you pitch primarily to THE SAME fanboy populace. If, however, you reach out to the VASTLY LARGER AND SUPERIOR IN NUMBER BOOK READING DEMOGRAPHIC, youhe same people who liked Blade would love TChalla. The same people who loved TChalla on THE AVENGERS cartoon series would love TChalla in a comic book, too.

However.

By and large, THERE IS NO CIRCUMSTANCE that would appease the LCBRD,[  which is a very very narrow readership ] because THEY DO NOT EVER ACCEPT THE IDEA OF A BLACK SUPERCOUPLE WITH GREATER POWER THAN ANY WHITE COUPLE OR SINGLE WHITE MALE HERO. Period. Because they're racist and privileged. Period. And they feel that we have encroached upon their sacrosanct power fantasy territory.



So. I know some of our HEF Leading Ladies thought the EJD mini was abominable. Clearly, Rutog thought there was some solid reason for criticizing The Marriage handling and execution. Okay.

That's a whole lot different than being in opposition to The Marriage from jump...because the very idea of Ororo marrying TChalla [ and being permanently removed from her mammy/fetish object/wallflower role in the X-Verse ] was appalling to them.

Now. I like most of the dissenters here on HEF. I like their posts overall. I especially like Salustrade, Rutog, Maxine, Princesa etc [ apologies to whoever I missed ].

However. I think we can revisit EJD's mini and make our specific positions on the matter clear. Very few dissenting positions actually work out to disliking the marriage, so we can jettison that discussion...unless yall wanna scrap about that topic, too.

I think EJD's work was a triumph. The fact that it pissed off so many of the LCBRD is proof that it's a great read. As I recall, most of EJD's readership and mopst of the people who read prose fiction who also read this EJD miniseries had THE EXACT OOPOSITE OPINION of the haters of EJD's work...and they outnumbered the haters, to boot.

Unfortunately, they aren't consistent comic book consumers...but with repeated pitches to them? Enough of them and their children would become so. And we'd see a slow, steady, consistent switch expansion and change in readership demographic [ which is SORELY NEEDED, imo ].

So yeah. Somebody open up a threado n EJD's mini if yall wanna throwdown about it or discuss it rationally as we are wont to do.

SUPREME ILLUMINATI= PRO EJD MINI.

Who's with me? Who's against me?


Whassup Brotha Supreme Illuminati.

To me, it's not really a matter of who's with or against you, but more of respecting the different interpretations of T'Challa and Ororo's first meeting as written by Chris Claremont and Eric Jerome Dickey respectively.

Chris Claremont's version of their original meeting was in no way disrespectful of T'Challa as a character or Wakanda as a concept and in fact, showed that the meeting of the two young characters had a positive impact on both that was fully expressed in the panels below...






Ororo was portrayed as a young African woman grown strong in her sense of self and the usage of her powers to help others in need of assistance and it goes without saying that young T'Challa was shown to be quite capable of holding his own against a much larger opponent.

However, it was never in doubt that Ororo's decision to intervene on T'Challa's behalf was a heroic move on her part that revealed a strong moral center and attendant abhorrence for injustice.

The short saga written by Claremont was ended on a rather odd cliffhanger that said more to his desire to keep Ororo away from male involvement outside of the (at that time) nascent X-franchise, than to any real appreciation of the benefits inherent in utilizing the potential for great story possibilities within a shared creative universe.



Eric Jerome Dickey's retcon of the aforementioned meeting between the two characters completely turned the idea of both of them being equally dynamic in their own unique ways on its head by reducing Ororo into a damsel in distress whilst positioning T'Challa as an individual who did not require any assistance, and as far as I'm concerned, this was a very wrong and unnecessary retcon.

It was disrespectul to what Claremont had already established in his own short story and reeked of the type of freelance arrogance that many of us abhorred when Jonathan Maberry diminished T'Challa , Ororo and Wakanda during Doomwar.

Reginald Hudlin's accomplishments on his Black Panther run were borne out of his recognition and appreciation for Christopher J. Priest did in the run that preceded Mr Hudlin's and both esteemed writers obviously drew their collective inspiration for T'Challa and Wakanda from the foundations layed by the OG Archictects Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

EJD's retconning of T'Challa and Ororo's first encounter was less of a celebrsation of Wakanda's greatness but more of a millstone around the neck of Hudlin's magnum opus marriage of two of Marvel's most magnificent characters.

A millstone which pissed of genuine fans of Ororo and provided haters of T'Challa as a character and Wakanda as a concept with ample opportunity to spew their racist bile under the cover of faux outrage at the diminishment of Ororo's character clearly depicted in EJD's mini.

The fact that as you put it "EJD's mini pissed of many of the LCBRD" was less of an indicator of any excellence on the part of his storytelling skills and more of a clesar pointer to the fact that his needless retcon was an exceedingly stupid reinterpretation of Ororo and T'Challa's first meeting that actually diminished both characters.

EJD inane and clumsy tamperings were completely superflous to T'Challa and Ororo's respective histories as characters and in no way added to the overarching backdrop of Wakanda's status within the 616 MU so I cannot in good concience accept EJD's work as any kind of acceptable addition to the BP mythos.

I read that mini and shook my head in serious dissapointment, so it goes without saying that I do not endorse EJD's Storm mini.

The retcon was unnecessary and ended up facilitating damage to Mr Hudlin's excellent work on the Black Panther mythos that most of us are still reeling from post AvX.

I couldn't care less about the opinions of haters but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to the actions of one of the primary contributors to a lot of the ill will that Mr Hudlin's excellent marriage of T'Challa and Ororo recieved.

EJD was the willing catalyst and Marvel Editorial where the lackadaisical facilitators.

And we the genuine enthusiasts, remain the collateral damage alongside what could (and should) have been.....




The above scans clearly illustrate to me that Mr Hudlin did not need to resort to diminishing Ororo as a character and it's quite obvious to me that he would have been a much better choice to have authored the Storm mini as opposed to EJD.



TERRIFIC RESPONSE.

One of the top 4 responses from the critics of EJD's work that I have ever read.

Even though I disagree with some points [ as expected ], I feel where you're coming from.

Expect a SUPREMELY ILLUMINATING response soon...I'm training now...
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Offline Rutog98

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Re: The sad return O'oroe O'Snooks Thomas (The demise of Ororo Munroe).
« Reply #1274 on: May 21, 2014, 08:36:49 pm »
Couple of things I would like to clear up:

1) I NEVER said that Storm being with BP devalues her just by her being with him. Salustrade, stop making false accusations about my assertions. What I said was Storm was devalued for the sake of propping BP up and for the sake of building the marriage. I used the EJD mini as an example of this. Storm did not have to be devalued to make this thing happen. Honestly, I LIKE the idea of a Storm/BP marriage and I think it would have worked for the long haul like the marriage of Reed and Sue if it weren't for mistakes that were made concerning Storm's characterization at the BEGINNING of the ordeal.

2) Kudos to Salustrade for posting the original story. Upon rereading it, T'challa was not losing the fight when Storm jumped in to help him out. He was holding his own very well. Storm just offered a lending hand. That was all. The original story did not devalue Ororo or T'challa at all. There was no reason at all to rewrite the story. Instead, the original story should have been expounded upon, or, better yet, there should have been a 12-issue maxi series with the two facing a huge threat together as adults. At the end of the story, T'challa could have proposed to Storm. Marvel could have kept this big ending as a surprise till the last issue and wowed everyone. That would have been an appropriate build up to the marriage. CC would have been a great writer for this maxi, not EJD.

3) I don't know Byrne well enough to say that he is racist. I don't really keep up with him. In fact, my whole comic hobby revolves around the character, Storm. If she is being written in a way that I can enjoy, I read comics. If she's being written as wallpaper, I drop comics. Simple. Regarding the treatment of BP fans on boards like CBR, its not something I really encounter, so I can't speak on that. When I go on CBR, I spend my time on the "Storm" threads and I post my opinions about her powers, character and how writers are treating her. That's pretty much it. Not since learning about the creation of the Storm ongoing have I even spent too much time there as I spent most of my time on these boards.  I cannot affirm or refute your claims regarding CBR and Byrne.

4)  I never claimed that Storm was a goddess, but she had the demeanor and was portrayed as the "untouchable goddess".

5) I never stated that people were JUSTIFIED in the all out hatred they spewed towards Hudlin. Storm was handled badly at the beginning of the project and whoever the writer of the BP comic was at the time was going to be blamed and criticized harshly for it. It just so happened that Hudlin was the writer at the time. A lot of those people ended up turning against BP as a result because they saw their favored character being written poorly to prop up this other character they don't follow. So, when Storm's character was being hurt, many of her fans turned on the character they percieved her being damaged to promote and against the writer of that character. They even blamed the mini on Hudlin eventhough he did not write it. Hudlin, to his credit, cares for Storm and he always tried to do right by her. As he learned more about the character, the better his portrayal of her became. That said, many of the posters I know who criticized the marriage and all LOVED the Priest story of Storm and T'challa. Many of them were open to a Storm/BP relationship, however, they instantly turned on the idea of it when Storm's character got hurt early on in the process.

6) You can attack the composition of the X-Men for not having many Blacks on the team when CC came on board all you want, but I would like to make two comments: 1) CC did not put the team together. That was already done in Giant-Sized issue 1 BEFORE he came on board. 2) Anytime CC is given a Black character to write (or any woman/character of color), he always tries to build the character up. For instance, look at the way he portrayed young T'challa in the original telling of the Storm/BP story. He also portrayed T'challa well in the Contest of Champions 2 where he fought Captain America. In the original Storm/ BP story, he wrote both characters with all the dignity and self-assurance they deserve. Also, while there was only one Black character on the X-Men roster during CC's run, the way he developed that Black character, Storm, was the crowning achievement of his whole X-Men career. His single greatest story might have been arguably "The Dark Phoenix Saga", but his greatest accomplishment in his whole comicbook writing career to date was to take Storm, who was a fresh, new character, and to make her one of the deepest, richest, most profound characters in all of comicbook history backed by an interesting and scary powerful set of superhuman abilities. Why are you trying to minimize that, Salustrade? Also, when the second generation of X-Men came into being, it was during the 70s, a racist point in American history. So, putting a Black female on the team was a big stride. Making her leader of said team was an even bigger stride. Add to that making her the most powerful member of the team (only contested during the brief time the Phoenix Force was on the team) and giving her character the best of the writer's creativity and story telling making her the richest, most interesting member of the team character wise during the point in American history when all this took place is huge.

7) Supreme Illuminati, you claim that EJD's retcon of Storm/s early meeting with T'challa was more realistic, but that simply is not true. Its not true to the spirit of Storm's character. As a Storm fan, there was nothing present whatsoever in his portrayal of Storm that even begins to resemble the character that I fell in love with. It was like reading about a total stranger who looked like this character that keeps me in the hobby. It was very hard to see that and I was/am very upset about it. Thing is, when the overwhelming majority of Storm fans who follow the character maintains that she was mischaracterized in that story, then the problem is with the story, not the Storm fans. Storm has always had an "old soul" and she was very confident and self-assured as a child as illustrated in the original telling of the story.

 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 11:06:40 pm by Rutog98 »
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)