Author Topic: The Mighty Black Avengers.  (Read 48667 times)

Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2006, 05:32:24 am »
Quote
that's just it.

what does BLACK signify?

Yeah it is a 2 dimensional paradigm, Iam black you are white, not really grounded in reality since there is no skin tone that could scientifically called black. melanin is not black in color the darkest this energy molecule can become is a dark blue, but because of the color spectrum we see it as black. A 3rd dimensional paradigm shift in thought would focus on the facts of our collective consciousness as africans or people of soul, a common genetic ancestry. This goes all they way to the 9th dimension of thought which is the origin of all matter. So calling ourselves black in the 21st century is self-defeating. If people with less melanin want to call themselves white they have that right, doesn't make it FACTUAL but let them live in their delusional world.

Then again, we who refer to ourselves as "Black American" or "African-American" cannot truly ground ourselves in that identity either. There are individuals of European descent who because of their long presence on the African continent, have established family histories there. There have been instances of such people becoming naturalized citizens of the U.S. and telling "Black Americans" that they - though white - are by virtue of their birth on the African continent, more "African-American" than blacks who refer to themselves as "African-American" are.

Then, you always have those who just enjoy being difficult for difficulty's sake. White people who claim that since common theory states that mankind originated in Africa that they too are members of the "African Diaspora".

You see kitamuRe? They've got us coming and going  :D
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Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2006, 05:44:55 am »


John Stewart was basically the most popular character on Justice League by the time that show went off the air. He had more shows focused on HIM than almost any other character - PLUS you have to look at the age groups. When I was working with 4 and 6th graders a few summers ago, when JL was in it's first or second season as far as these kids knew Green Lantern was black. They didn't know anything else and it made perfect sense to them. There're always haters out there, but again, I'm just not into using a loud abrasive minority to impugn the majority. I think most people out there liked John Stewart as GL if they didn't he wouldn't have gotten so much airtime.

To believe that John Stewart had become the most popular character on Justice League by the time the series ended would be a stretch anyway you look at it. If a popularity poll was taken, I believe that Batman would emerge as the most popular character on the series, followed by Superman, followed by the Flash, J'onn J'onzz, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl and Green Lantern in that order. The only place where those poll results might show differently would be in this very forum. And given the sentiments expressed by some of our distinguished members, I wouldn't say that it would be a sure bet that Green Lantern would win "most popular JL member" here either  :D

You say that John Stewart was featured in most of the episodes and suggest that it was somehow connected to the character's growing popularity. I disagree. From some of the posts I've read on other boards, many fans wanted to see more Batman and less of everyone else, John Stewart in particular.

The reason for John Stewart's "frequent" appearances on the show - if such was the case - would be largely attributed to creator's preference. Bruce Timm has stated many times that of all the Green Lanterns, John Stewart is his favorite. James Tucker and Dwayne McDuffie like him too. So, there you go.
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Offline Wise Son

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2006, 06:11:17 am »
You say that John Stewart was featured in most of the episodes and suggest that it was somehow connected to the character's growing popularity. I disagree. From some of the posts I've read on other boards, many fans wanted to see more Batman and less of everyone else, John Stewart in particular.
Just shows how much of a divide there often is between fans and 'real people'. ;D

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Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2006, 06:26:19 am »
i say we call the team BLACK

What do you guys think?

i think it is kinda hot.

Well my friend, I'll tell you what I think.

There exists a television network called Black Entertainment Television.

Although there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of other television networks which deal primarily with issues, interests and diversions aimed primarily at the dominant European culture and their entertainment tastes, there are those white people who look at BET and will say....

"BET?! What the hell is that? A network for black people only?! Well, if 'they' can have 'their' BET, where is our 'WET"?

I hope you get my meaning  ;)
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Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2006, 08:34:16 am »
Hey.

Does anyone remember, or is anyone even aware of Marvel Comics' "Young Gods"?

http://www.marveldirectory.com/teams/younggods.htm

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/brightsword.htm

They were created by Odin through the agency of a being known as Ego-Prime. I remember the book because if featured outstanding work by the late, great John Buscema AND, the Young Gods included a black man. He's just visible in a graphic in one of the links provided.

Ah, here he is. His name is Genii.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/geniiyoung.htm
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 08:36:55 am by sinjection »
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Offline Rockscissorspaper

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2006, 02:14:30 pm »
If all white teams form and it's not seen as "forced" then a group of blacks getting together should be okay as well.
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Offline kitamu Re

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2006, 02:16:58 pm »
I agree 100%.

Offline mr. irrelevant

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2006, 02:55:29 pm »
If all white teams form and it's not seen as "forced" then a group of blacks getting together should be okay as well.

As long as they're not called something stupid like "The Super Soul Brothers", I'm okay with it.  It should be something cool and universal.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 05:16:18 pm by mr. irrelevant »
what the hell are you doing reading this?

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2006, 03:55:34 pm »
no, they're gonna be called The FUNKtastic Force!

*sigh*

can you image all the afros, peace pics and daishikis that team will be sportin'?


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Offline blkyoda

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2006, 05:04:41 pm »
You say that John Stewart was featured in most of the episodes and suggest that it was somehow connected to the character's growing popularity. I disagree. From some of the posts I've read on other boards, many fans wanted to see more Batman and less of everyone else, John Stewart in particular.
Just shows how much of a divide there often is between fans and 'real people'. ;D


Exactly Wise Son!!!! Comic fans can be a particularly cranky and bitchy and possessive when it comes to thier characters. (Hey did I just diss myself ;D  ? But seriously, regular people, who just watched cartoons and enjoyed them - I'm assuming they were pretty into GL. Like I said, none of my students collected comic books (i know cuz I asked them before I brought in my collection ;D and they were ALL about Green Lantern. Nothing is cooler to me than being on a playground and seeing a black boy and white boy arguing over WHO gets to be green lantern on the playground. Checking out comic forums to see how regular people thought of  JLU is like asking Republican Primary voters what they think of abortion, prayer in schools and the War in Iraq and assuming they're reflective of anybody else who voted for George Bush in 2004.

The writers could like him all they wanted but if Green Lantern wasn't popular with the viewers then he wouldn't have shown up so much. Batman and Superman had already had a 5 and 3 year solo television run so of course they were more popular but as far as Justice League ITSELF goes, I'm pretty certain GL was more popular than the rest of the cast.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2006, 07:51:25 pm »
To believe that John Stewart had become the most popular character on Justice League by the time the series ended would be a stretch anyway you look at it. If a popularity poll was taken, I believe that Batman would emerge as the most popular character on the series, followed by Superman, followed by the Flash, J'onn J'onzz, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl and Green Lantern in that order. The only place where those poll results might show differently would be in this very forum. And given the sentiments expressed by some of our distinguished members, I wouldn't say that it would be a sure bet that Green Lantern would win "most popular JL member" here either  :D

You say that John Stewart was featured in most of the episodes and suggest that it was somehow connected to the character's growing popularity. I disagree. From some of the posts I've read on other boards, many fans wanted to see more Batman and less of everyone else, John Stewart in particular.

The reason for John Stewart's "frequent" appearances on the show - if such was the case - would be largely attributed to creator's preference. Bruce Timm has stated many times that of all the Green Lanterns, John Stewart is his favorite. James Tucker and Dwayne McDuffie like him too. So, there you go.

Let's see J'onn was so popular they removed him from the series for a year and did anyone notice?  Hawkgirl was removed and again, did anyone really notice.  Superman and Batman's popularity (and to a lesser degree Wonder Woman's) can't be compared to John Stewart's because they're popularity originates outside of the series.  John, Hawkgirl, J'onn and Flash's TV popularity are solely the products of the series.  (And Flash was probably the least popular of all--he was the humor for the most part.)

Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2006, 06:15:03 am »
 :)

Fellas, let's look at the "fans" or "fanatics",  and the "regular folks".

Hockey Fan(atics) go to the games and support the sport.

Regular Folks don't seem to particularly care for Hockey. They don't go to the arenas to watch the games. When Hockey is televised, regular folks aren't watching. As a result, Hockey has become like Soccer or Bowling. Last fall, more television viewers watched the Women's Collegiate Softball Championship Series than watched Hockey's Stanley Cup Playoffs.

In this case, your view that the opinion of "regular folks" hold more sway over that of the "fan(atic) holds water.

Now on the other hand, "regular folks" might enjoy watching American Idol on television. However, the American Idol fan(atic) watches the show and participates in the nature of the program. In this case, an American Idol contestant receives no assistance whatsoever from those "regular folks" who might have favored him or her, because the "regular folks" just watch the program. The American Idol fan(atic) will pick up a phone and vote for the Idol contestant of their choice  :) Now let me break it down for you.

American Idol contestant Chuck Berry vs American Idol contestant Elvis Presley. Most viewers and most importantly, most fan(atics) of the program are of the European persuasion. Now we all know who would win the contest don't we? Huh Uh. Don't even try it yoda. I see you over there calculating and cogitating...trying to find someway to convince me that those fans would find some way to judge those two contestants on the merits of their talent rather than basing their judgement on certain other physical, psychological and socialogical characteristics :D  The fan(atics) would certainly vote for Elvis, The King of Rock and Roll  :D

Now with respect to Bruce Timm's Justice League program.

The fan(atics) of the program expressed an opinion that was probably shared by many other viewers. The "many other viewers" would be those fan(atics) who simply felt it wasn't worth their time to express their opinions in online forums discussing the program. The remainder of the viewing segment would be the "regular folks" who might have watched the program to blow off stress or share some time with their children.

If the fan(atics) had, had their way...and Bruce Timm and James Tucker were the shrinking violent types....("shrinking violent types"...what the hell??!!! :D :D :D :D make that shrinking violet types) , the Green Lantern, John Stewart would have been replaced straight away by Kyle Rayner and Hawkman would have replaced Hawkgirl. The fan(atics) seemed to dislike John Stewart as much as Bruce Timm liked him. Like those critics of Mr. Hudlin who find and pick at anything they consider problematic with his effort, the fan(atics) of the Justice League program railed against John Stewart. He could do nothing right. Stewart was too bossy. He was too mean. He wasn't imaginative enough to utilize the awesome potential of his Power Ring (see Bruce Timm's comments about the "big green boxing gloves"). They hated him  :)

While Timm and Tucker were absolutely committed to the John Stewart character, to Shayera Hol and to the plans they had for those two, they did make some concessions to the fan(atics). You who viewed the program regularly will remember how in later issues, John Stewart began to make more energy constructs with his Power Ring. Read Timm's remarks about fan reaction and his admissions that he and his team might have miscalculated on some aspects of their series in the publication "Modern Masters Volume Three: Bruce Timm" or for those of you who purchased the Justice League DVD set for Season One, take a listen to Timm and Tucker's comments in the "special features". You will see that the fan(atic) exercised a great deal of influence on the decisions made by the Justice League creative team.

Now yoda, you who are among Mr. Hudlin's staunchest critics, I believe you would describe yourself as a comic book fan(atic) and a Black Panther fan(atic) wouldn't you? You're behavior in this forum mirrors almost exactly that of the Justice League fan(atics) in forums dealing with their pet program  :D

You expect the Panther fan(atic) to have a voice in making positive change (so-called postive change, that is), in this current run by highlighting Mr. Hudliin's supposed deficiencies in the hope that it might somehow "wake him up" and nudge him to write a Black Panther more to your liking don't you?

And you believe the "regular folks" held more sway than did the "fan(atics)" who were in Bruce Timm's grill all the time? Come on, man  ;)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 06:24:49 am by sinjection »
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Offline blkyoda

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2006, 09:28:48 am »
:)

Fellas, let's look at the "fans" or "fanatics",  and the "regular folks".

Hockey Fan(atics) go to the games and support the sport.

Regular Folks don't seem to particularly care for Hockey. They don't go to the arenas to watch the games. When Hockey is televised, regular folks aren't watching. As a result, Hockey has become like Soccer or Bowling. Last fall, more television viewers watched the Women's Collegiate Softball Championship Series than watched Hockey's Stanley Cup Playoffs.

In this case, your view that the opinion of "regular folks" hold more sway over that of the "fan(atic) holds water.

It's kindof a spurious comparison. Sports are dependant on the DIEHARD fan because they're the ones (well, them and corporate sponsors) who actually buy seats and tickets. T.V. money is T.V. money, Hockey was losing money because they couldn't fill their seats, that was a problem LONG before the Television ratings started to tank. I'm not sure where you're going with this....



Now on the other hand, "regular folks" might enjoy watching American Idol on television. However, the American Idol fan(atic) watches the show and participates in the nature of the program. In this case, an American Idol contestant receives no assistance whatsoever from those "regular folks" who might have favored him or her, because the "regular folks" just watch the program. The American Idol fan(atic) will pick up a phone and vote for the Idol contestant of their choice  :) Now let me break it down for you.

Still not understanding.....


American Idol contestant Chuck Berry vs American Idol contestant Elvis Presley. Most viewers and most importantly, most fan(atics) of the program are of the European persuasion. Now we all know who would win the contest don't we? Huh Uh. Don't even try it yoda. I see you over there calculating and cogitating...trying to find someway to convince me that those fans would find some way to judge those two contestants on the merits of their talent rather than basing their judgement on certain other physical, psychological and socialogical characteristics :D  The fan(atics) would certainly vote for Elvis, The King of Rock and Roll  :D


Oh c'mon now :D I'm not a sophist. I know that Elvis would beat ouf Chuck Berry amongst Baby Boom white folks. But to be fair, 'merits of thier talent' is pretty subjective. We had this huge debate at a party I was at awhile back about who was a better singer Justin Timberlake or Usher. Even if we had someone in the room who was a trained singer I would've been a subjective assesment as to who was Better. Singing is a heart, thing, an emotional thing, so saying who's BETTER or WORSE is all a matter of personal choice. Still don't see where you're going with this....


Now with respect to Bruce Timm's Justice League program.

The fan(atics) of the program expressed an opinion that was probably shared by many other viewers. The "many other viewers" would be those fan(atics) who simply felt it wasn't worth their time to express their opinions in online forums discussing the program. The remainder of the viewing segment would be the "regular folks" who might have watched the program to blow off stress or share some time with their children.

Wait, so you're creating 3 different categories of viewers? Fanatics who express themselves on computer forums, the fans that likely agree with them that just don't go on forums and then 'regular folks' who don't care? That's MUCH more complicated (and I don't see how this relates to sports.) It's a MAJOR leap to assume that the people who scream and yell on message boards represent anybody other than themselves. To assume they're speaking for the masses of other 'fanatics' who just don't have the time to speak their equal complaints is fairly presumptuous. Like I said, a better example is GOP primary voters and those who voted for Bush in 2004. The passionate minority is just that: A passionate MINORITY, if they really represented what everyone else thought then they wouldn't be a minority. John McCain was more popular than George Bush in 2000 amongst ALL Americans GOP and Dems. However, the people who vote in primaries are HARD care right wingers and they preferred Bush. The point being, you cater to extremists to get where you want to get, then you moderate when you have to speak to a large audience. If JLU wanted to cater to fanboys only they'd have had Kyle Raynor or Hawkman but they knew that thier bread was going to be buttered by the LARGER fan population and THOSE people would want a team with more than one woman and a team with at least one minority character. At the end of the day, fanboys may get your show on the air (or get your movie to a good opending weekend) but what SUSTAINS your comicproduct is being able to get people to watch or consume your stuff that aren't die hard fans.
Fanboys didn't have THAT much sway - they can be listened to but they don't run the show, or control the show. You seem to be focusing on the college age to 30 somethings that watched JLU or taped it on a Saturday night. That was NOT the main demographic that Cartoon network wanted. That was a nice way to bring in Buick advertisers and such, but the fan base they SOUGHT was 6 to 14 year old kids who'd watch the cartoon and buy toys and merchandising....


If the fan(atics) had, had their way...and Bruce Timm and James Tucker were the shrinking violent types....("shrinking violent types"...what the hell??!!! :D :D :D :D make that shrinking violet types) , the Green Lantern, John Stewart would have been replaced straight away by Kyle Rayner and Hawkman would have replaced Hawkgirl. The fan(atics) seemed to dislike John Stewart as much as Bruce Timm liked him. Like those critics of Mr. Hudlin who find and pick at anything they consider problematic with his effort, the fan(atics) of the Justice League program railed against John Stewart. He could do nothing right. Stewart was too bossy. He was too mean. He wasn't imaginative enough to utilize the awesome potential of his Power Ring (see Bruce Timm's comments about the "big green boxing gloves"). They hated him  :)

I don't get it. You're still talking about a small minority of loudmouth people. Essentially 'the comicbookstoreguy' from the simpsons who never likes ANYTHING but always watches/reads/orbuys it anyways. They didn't have their way. That's like saying the people who have been screaming to dump Donovan McNabb for the last 6 years have any REAL sway in how the team works. Nope, the owners of the Eagles know what they're doing.


While Timm and Tucker were absolutely committed to the John Stewart character, to Shayera Hol and to the plans they had for those two, they did make some concessions to the fan(atics). You who viewed the program regularly will remember how in later issues, John Stewart began to make more energy constructs with his Power Ring. Read Timm's remarks about fan reaction and his admissions that he and his team might have miscalculated on some aspects of their series in the publication "Modern Masters Volume Three: Bruce Timm" or for those of you who purchased the Justice League DVD set for Season One, take a listen to Timm and Tucker's comments in the "special features". You will see that the fan(atic) exercised a great deal of influence on the decisions made by the Justice League creative team.

Dude, you've got to be kidding me. I never said fans don't MATTER. I was saying that fans aren't going to substantially alter the plotting and plans of a cartoon show. You're weakening your won argument. If this small band out angry people was all that important than 1.) Stewart never would've been selected 2.) Green Arrow probably would've been a regular instead of Hawkgirl and 3.) the show would not have moved to a half hour format and it would STILL be on the air. Listening to fans who want more creative uses of the powering, and introducing that to the cartoon is the normal give and take between fans and a show. Fans wanted Ross and Rachel to finally tie the knot on the friends, but the writers knew that it would work better if they dragged it out. I still don't see your point.



Now yoda, you who are among Mr. Hudlin's staunchest critics, I believe you would describe yourself as a comic book fan(atic) and a Black Panther fan(atic) wouldn't you? You're behavior in this forum mirrors almost exactly that of the Justice League fan(atics) in forums dealing with their pet program  :D

Not sure where you're going, I'm going to need mapquest in a minute....


You expect the Panther fan(atic) to have a voice in making positive change (so-called postive change, that is), in this current run by highlighting Mr. Hudliin's supposed deficiencies in the hope that it might somehow "wake him up" and nudge him to write a Black Panther more to your liking don't you?

I will tell you the truth. My concerns about BP are mostly venting. I would be SHOCKED if ANYTHING I said on this board had a substantive impact on how this comic gets written or drawn. I would require a complete overhaul of certain things and I sincerely doubt that Reginald Hudlin gives a crap about what I think on MAJOR issues. Now, if for months fans started complaining that BP doesn't use enough Wakanda tech in his adventures I can see maybe down the road the artist or the writer finds more ways to bring in Wakanda tech but that's about as deep as GL using more creative constructs. It's a suggestion that's fan friendly and fairly easy to integrate without changing the overall goal the artist is hoping to create.


And you believe the "regular folks" held more sway than did the "fan(atics)" who were in Bruce Timm's grill all the time? Come on, man  ;)

Of COURSE they Did. Why do you think JLU is off the air? If fanatics had that much sway the show would still be on. At the end of the day the big money people at Warnerbrothers decided that the show was not delivering the demographic that they wanted (kids) to the places that they wanted (toystores.) All of the post 18 fans in the world don't mean squat if the 13 year olds would still rather have Madden 2005 than a 12 pack of JLU figures for their birthday. Fans may move a show, fans may interest creators but fans do NOT change what happens on a show. At least not fanatics. Do you think that the Spiderman movies have made all of this loot because 20% of the people who go to the theatres KNOW the significance of Amazing Fantasy # 15? Nope, it's because it got my old girlfriend, a valedictorian at Spelman, a Phd candidate in English who'd never looked at a comic book in her life, to actually GO to a COMIC book movie with me and say afterwards that 'it wasn't THAT bad'. I have no illusions about fan power when it comes to comic related movies and projects, or even the comics themselves. Hudlin doesn't care about what anybody thinks of his work really, until those numbers start to slide, THEN he may start to do some changes, until then who cares what I think?

Offline sinjection

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2006, 10:54:10 am »
:)

Fellas, let's look at the "fans" or "fanatics",  and the "regular folks".

Hockey Fan(atics) go to the games and support the sport.

Regular Folks don't seem to particularly care for Hockey. They don't go to the arenas to watch the games. When Hockey is televised, regular folks aren't watching. As a result, Hockey has become like Soccer or Bowling. Last fall, more television viewers watched the Women's Collegiate Softball Championship Series than watched Hockey's Stanley Cup Playoffs.

In this case, your view that the opinion of "regular folks" hold more sway over that of the "fan(atic) holds water.

It's kindof a spurious comparison. Sports are dependant on the DIEHARD fan because they're the ones (well, them and corporate sponsors) who actually buy seats and tickets. T.V. money is T.V. money, Hockey was losing money because they couldn't fill their seats, that was a problem LONG before the Television ratings started to tank. I'm not sure where you're going with this....



Now on the other hand, "regular folks" might enjoy watching American Idol on television. However, the American Idol fan(atic) watches the show and participates in the nature of the program. In this case, an American Idol contestant receives no assistance whatsoever from those "regular folks" who might have favored him or her, because the "regular folks" just watch the program. The American Idol fan(atic) will pick up a phone and vote for the Idol contestant of their choice  :) Now let me break it down for you.

Still not understanding.....


American Idol contestant Chuck Berry vs American Idol contestant Elvis Presley. Most viewers and most importantly, most fan(atics) of the program are of the European persuasion. Now we all know who would win the contest don't we? Huh Uh. Don't even try it yoda. I see you over there calculating and cogitating...trying to find someway to convince me that those fans would find some way to judge those two contestants on the merits of their talent rather than basing their judgement on certain other physical, psychological and socialogical characteristics :D  The fan(atics) would certainly vote for Elvis, The King of Rock and Roll  :D


Oh c'mon now :D I'm not a sophist. I know that Elvis would beat ouf Chuck Berry amongst Baby Boom white folks. But to be fair, 'merits of thier talent' is pretty subjective. We had this huge debate at a party I was at awhile back about who was a better singer Justin Timberlake or Usher. Even if we had someone in the room who was a trained singer I would've been a subjective assesment as to who was Better. Singing is a heart, thing, an emotional thing, so saying who's BETTER or WORSE is all a matter of personal choice. Still don't see where you're going with this....


Now with respect to Bruce Timm's Justice League program.

The fan(atics) of the program expressed an opinion that was probably shared by many other viewers. The "many other viewers" would be those fan(atics) who simply felt it wasn't worth their time to express their opinions in online forums discussing the program. The remainder of the viewing segment would be the "regular folks" who might have watched the program to blow off stress or share some time with their children.

Wait, so you're creating 3 different categories of viewers? Fanatics who express themselves on computer forums, the fans that likely agree with them that just don't go on forums and then 'regular folks' who don't care? That's MUCH more complicated (and I don't see how this relates to sports.) It's a MAJOR leap to assume that the people who scream and yell on message boards represent anybody other than themselves. To assume they're speaking for the masses of other 'fanatics' who just don't have the time to speak their equal complaints is fairly presumptuous. Like I said, a better example is GOP primary voters and those who voted for Bush in 2004. The passionate minority is just that: A passionate MINORITY, if they really represented what everyone else thought then they wouldn't be a minority. John McCain was more popular than George Bush in 2000 amongst ALL Americans GOP and Dems. However, the people who vote in primaries are HARD care right wingers and they preferred Bush. The point being, you cater to extremists to get where you want to get, then you moderate when you have to speak to a large audience. If JLU wanted to cater to fanboys only they'd have had Kyle Raynor or Hawkman but they knew that thier bread was going to be buttered by the LARGER fan population and THOSE people would want a team with more than one woman and a team with at least one minority character. At the end of the day, fanboys may get your show on the air (or get your movie to a good opending weekend) but what SUSTAINS your comicproduct is being able to get people to watch or consume your stuff that aren't die hard fans.
Fanboys didn't have THAT much sway - they can be listened to but they don't run the show, or control the show. You seem to be focusing on the college age to 30 somethings that watched JLU or taped it on a Saturday night. That was NOT the main demographic that Cartoon network wanted. That was a nice way to bring in Buick advertisers and such, but the fan base they SOUGHT was 6 to 14 year old kids who'd watch the cartoon and buy toys and merchandising....


If the fan(atics) had, had their way...and Bruce Timm and James Tucker were the shrinking violent types....("shrinking violent types"...what the hell??!!! :D :D :D :D make that shrinking violet types) , the Green Lantern, John Stewart would have been replaced straight away by Kyle Rayner and Hawkman would have replaced Hawkgirl. The fan(atics) seemed to dislike John Stewart as much as Bruce Timm liked him. Like those critics of Mr. Hudlin who find and pick at anything they consider problematic with his effort, the fan(atics) of the Justice League program railed against John Stewart. He could do nothing right. Stewart was too bossy. He was too mean. He wasn't imaginative enough to utilize the awesome potential of his Power Ring (see Bruce Timm's comments about the "big green boxing gloves"). They hated him  :)

I don't get it. You're still talking about a small minority of loudmouth people. Essentially 'the comicbookstoreguy' from the simpsons who never likes ANYTHING but always watches/reads/orbuys it anyways. They didn't have their way. That's like saying the people who have been screaming to dump Donovan McNabb for the last 6 years have any REAL sway in how the team works. Nope, the owners of the Eagles know what they're doing.


While Timm and Tucker were absolutely committed to the John Stewart character, to Shayera Hol and to the plans they had for those two, they did make some concessions to the fan(atics). You who viewed the program regularly will remember how in later issues, John Stewart began to make more energy constructs with his Power Ring. Read Timm's remarks about fan reaction and his admissions that he and his team might have miscalculated on some aspects of their series in the publication "Modern Masters Volume Three: Bruce Timm" or for those of you who purchased the Justice League DVD set for Season One, take a listen to Timm and Tucker's comments in the "special features". You will see that the fan(atic) exercised a great deal of influence on the decisions made by the Justice League creative team.

Dude, you've got to be kidding me. I never said fans don't MATTER. I was saying that fans aren't going to substantially alter the plotting and plans of a cartoon show. You're weakening your won argument. If this small band out angry people was all that important than 1.) Stewart never would've been selected 2.) Green Arrow probably would've been a regular instead of Hawkgirl and 3.) the show would not have moved to a half hour format and it would STILL be on the air. Listening to fans who want more creative uses of the powering, and introducing that to the cartoon is the normal give and take between fans and a show. Fans wanted Ross and Rachel to finally tie the knot on the friends, but the writers knew that it would work better if they dragged it out. I still don't see your point.



Now yoda, you who are among Mr. Hudlin's staunchest critics, I believe you would describe yourself as a comic book fan(atic) and a Black Panther fan(atic) wouldn't you? You're behavior in this forum mirrors almost exactly that of the Justice League fan(atics) in forums dealing with their pet program  :D

Not sure where you're going, I'm going to need mapquest in a minute....


You expect the Panther fan(atic) to have a voice in making positive change (so-called postive change, that is), in this current run by highlighting Mr. Hudliin's supposed deficiencies in the hope that it might somehow "wake him up" and nudge him to write a Black Panther more to your liking don't you?

I will tell you the truth. My concerns about BP are mostly venting. I would be SHOCKED if ANYTHING I said on this board had a substantive impact on how this comic gets written or drawn. I would require a complete overhaul of certain things and I sincerely doubt that Reginald Hudlin gives a crap about what I think on MAJOR issues. Now, if for months fans started complaining that BP doesn't use enough Wakanda tech in his adventures I can see maybe down the road the artist or the writer finds more ways to bring in Wakanda tech but that's about as deep as GL using more creative constructs. It's a suggestion that's fan friendly and fairly easy to integrate without changing the overall goal the artist is hoping to create.


And you believe the "regular folks" held more sway than did the "fan(atics)" who were in Bruce Timm's grill all the time? Come on, man  ;)

Of COURSE they Did. Why do you think JLU is off the air? If fanatics had that much sway the show would still be on. At the end of the day the big money people at Warnerbrothers decided that the show was not delivering the demographic that they wanted (kids) to the places that they wanted (toystores.) All of the post 18 fans in the world don't mean squat if the 13 year olds would still rather have Madden 2005 than a 12 pack of JLU figures for their birthday. Fans may move a show, fans may interest creators but fans do NOT change what happens on a show. At least not fanatics. Do you think that the Spiderman movies have made all of this loot because 20% of the people who go to the theatres KNOW the significance of Amazing Fantasy # 15? Nope, it's because it got my old girlfriend, a valedictorian at Spelman, a Phd candidate in English who'd never looked at a comic book in her life, to actually GO to a COMIC book movie with me and say afterwards that 'it wasn't THAT bad'. I have no illusions about fan power when it comes to comic related movies and projects, or even the comics themselves. Hudlin doesn't care about what anybody thinks of his work really, until those numbers start to slide, THEN he may start to do some changes, until then who cares what I think?


yoda  :D

Glad to see you're getting the handle of this "quote" function thing. Obviously in this post, you were still in the "getting the handle on it" phase.

I'm sure there are excellent points in there somewhere so it will be worth the effort to brave the chaos you have wrought here to find them.

Practice makes perfect buddy. I'm still trying to figure out the multiple quote function myself.

S.O.S. to anyone from sinjection and yoda....HELP US TO MASTER THE QUOTE FUNCTION.....please. Otherwise our botched attempts will continue to drive everyone crazy.
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Toya

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Re: The Mighty Black Avengers.
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2006, 02:18:59 pm »
Scrolling down from the reply box, one may(or may not) notice a synthesis version of previously made posts. Located on right of each is: "Insert Quote". That is the key to multiple quoting. Practice makes near perfect.
...Rassclaat.