Author Topic: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well  (Read 8952 times)

Offline Magic Wand

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Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 07:58:11 am »
Wandi, you know I love ya, but the first one isn't racist.  It's in response to President Obama's line during the debates.  That cartoon would have been made about any candidate who said that.

President Obama: We Have Fewer Horses and Bayonets


The second one, however, IS racist (she admits it) and she's a moron.  It is disgusting and she should be ashamed.

Offline Magic Wand

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 09:49:43 am »
Wandi, you know I love ya, but the first one isn't racist.  It's in response to President Obama's line during the debates.  That cartoon would have been made about any candidate who said that.


May be.
Perhaps the original intent isn't racist, however African-Americans are very sensitive to these sorts of images.
It's just a LOT too real for us.
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 12:22:24 pm »
Wandi, you know I love ya, but the first one isn't racist.  It's in response to President Obama's line during the debates.  That cartoon would have been made about any candidate who said that.

Jesse, it's possible that both are simultaneously true, i.e. you're right that a similar cartoon would have been made about another candidate AND it's racist.

And another thing, intent on the part of the cartoonist is not necessary for something to be racist. Sometimes a lack of awareness is all it takes.
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Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 01:23:09 pm »
And another thing, intent on the part of the cartoonist is not necessary for something to be racist. Sometimes a lack of awareness is all it takes.


Curtis,  I know that since I'm not black, I might not see or interpret things likethis the same way many on this board.  But I honestly do not see this as racist.  To use a somewhat silly argument (it's the first that came to mind), if Indiana Jones in a movie used his trademark whip (which he used dozens of times on people of different races and backgrounds) on a "bad guy" who happened to be black, would that be racist?  I hope it doesn't sound like I am being flippant, because I'm really not trying to be. In this situation, it seems the same as those images of the Sesame Street characters wanted to kick the crap out of Mitt Romney.  I didn't take it literally that it was advocating an attack on Governor Romney, just that they took a notable soundbite and ran with it.  If the President had said we have less pies now than we used to, the cartoon would have been of Romney throwing pies and Obama. 



I can try put it into perspective from my side.  Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown is running against Josh Mandel, who is Jewish.  In an ad, Sherrod Brown's commercial stated that Mandel has "become the candidate of the Big Lie.  The Big Lie was an expression created by Hitler regarding a lie so big that no one would believe that someone made it up.  He used that to blame the Jews for Germany's troubles prior to WWII.  Now some people tried to make that out to be anti-Semitic.  As a Jewish guy, I thought that was nonsense.  The intent was obvious.  To make Mandel look bad.  There wasn't any anti-Semitic intent, even though some said they could see it.  I look at the Romney/Obama cartoon the same way.

TV ad: "Pants on Fire"


I hope I don't come off as argumentative because I really do like having an open debate on this.  Always welcome to get different perspectives and ideas  :)

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 02:00:56 pm »
Jesse, I appreciate your reply and the discussion.

Here's the image in question:


To me, that does smack of runaway slave imagery which is, almost by definition, racist. While that may not have been the conscious intent of the cartoonist, I most certainly perceive it that way. And frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical that the cartoonist was unaware of the imagery. Maybe s/he thinks it's provocative and somehow OK. I agree that it's provocative.

And I do agree with you that the basis of the cartoon is from the clip you posted. But I can't shake the feeling that if it were another candidate, the cartoonist would have somehow found different imagery to make his/her point.

Likewise, I suspect that by choosing that particular language, Senator Brown's campaign is multi-tasking -- making their central point of calling Mr. Mandel a liar and simultaneously reminding voters that are sensitive to it that, by the way, you do remember that Mr. Mandel is a Jew. Maybe they didn't mean it that way, nevertheless, there it is. And frankly, I'm noting the possibility that the reference is inadvertent out of intellectual discipline only.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 03:13:46 pm by Curtis Metcalf »
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
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Offline michaelintp

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 07:19:45 am »
Perspectives.

The conscious or unconscious expression of racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry does exist. The mistaken perception of imagined racial, ethnic and religious bigotry also exists. Knowingly false allegations of racial, ethnic or religious bigotry also occur. These perceptions and expressions are caused by different personal and/or collective traumas/insults and/or behavior that has proven personally, collectively and/or politically advantageous and/or protective.

Most will agree that the expression of bigotry is wrong. Most will agree that false allegations of bigotry are wrong. The problem is that so often we are in that netherworld where different perspectives wholly drive perceptions. Creating wholly different snapshots of reality. The expression of differing perspectives and perceptions can promote understanding but, at times, can also foster misunderstanding.

Arggggg. 

As to what's going on with the specific examples of the cartoon and "big lie" reference: I don't know. We're in the netherworld.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:07:45 am by michaelintp »
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 02:57:38 pm »
Perspectives.

The conscious or unconscious expression of racial, ethnic, or religious bigotry does exist. The mistaken perception of imagined racial, ethnic and religious bigotry also exists. Knowingly false allegations of racial, ethnic or religious bigotry also occur. These perceptions and expressions are caused by different personal and/or collective traumas/insults and/or behavior that has proven personally, collectively and/or politically advantageous and/or protective.

Most will agree that the expression of bigotry is wrong. Most will agree that false allegations of bigotry are wrong. The problem is that so often we are in that netherworld where different perspectives wholly drive perceptions. Creating wholly different snapshots of reality. The expression of differing perspectives and perceptions can promote understanding but, at times, can also foster misunderstanding.

Arggggg. 

As to what's going on with the specific examples of the cartoon and "big lie" reference: I don't know. We're in the netherworld.
I'm Curtis Metcalf and I approve this post.  :D
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
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Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 09:42:19 pm »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.
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Offline Tanksleyd

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Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 06:53:42 pm »
In America EVERYTHING is racist.. From where we live, to where high schoolers eat, to the dolls that children want to play with.

The factors that made the Nationalist Europeans who killed each others children for millennia and to this day (Russian/Georgian Conflict of today, Bosnian/Croation conflict of the 80's/90's), the factors that made the English and French from Canada come to America and homogenize have never been articulated or discussed in America, lest people discover that EVERYONE in America is Racist....Do Euro-Americans here in America and today's France, who turned away from the SS St. Louis during World War Two's early days, do those Whites play the Jew card? Yep, this is an election and EVERYONE is playing every ethnic card they can get their hands on.

Is the cartoon "racist" (perhaps with a small "R") adding to the perception that Blacks (for lack of a better word) are sub-human and Europeans (the perfect word) are "smart"? Of course it is...But so is Gangster Rap (Acid Rock) and inner-city crime (Mafia).

Racism is what made America great...No need to take up arms at this late date.
That's so common.


Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 09:16:41 pm »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.

House is staying republican.  Senate could go either way but I think it will most likely stay dem.

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 11:10:22 pm »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.

House is staying republican.  Senate could go either way but I think it will most likely stay dem.

...with this notion in mind-- sigh-- I'm wondering just if Prez O. re-ups, then what is going to be his approach to the inevitable adversarialism this time?  I don't know how many olive branches can be re-extended time and again.. what type of legislation-- if any-- will be able to get past stage 1? Ah, well...  :-\
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Offline Tanksleyd

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Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2012, 04:58:39 am »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.

"They will never admit it"...Alistair Cooke, 1972.

Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2012, 06:21:35 am »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.

House is staying republican.  Senate could go either way but I think it will most likely stay dem.

...with this notion in mind-- sigh-- I'm wondering just if Prez O. re-ups, then what is going to be his approach to the inevitable adversarialism this time?  I don't know how many olive branches can be re-extended time and again.. what type of legislation-- if any-- will be able to get past stage 1? Ah, well...  :-\

No matter who wins, it's going to be gridlock for at least two years.  Harry Reid has already said (and I'm paraphrasing) Romney is crazy if he thinks the senate wi work with him to pass his agenda.

Offline Battle

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Re: Arm up folks. This election ain't gonna end well
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2012, 06:26:30 am »
any updates on how the house/senate elections are shaping up?  It seems to be a neglected story.



I believe President Obama will earn his re-election and bring in a considerable influx of House of Representatives and Senate Democratic seats in his slipstream.