Author Topic: BEAUregard or NO Regard?  (Read 12431 times)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« on: April 01, 2013, 12:53:35 am »
Reggie,

 

An article in the March 28, 2013 issue of the New York Times titled “Memphis Drops Confederate Names From Parks, Sowing New Battles” highlights again the extremely divergent views held by the descendants of slaves and the descendants of slaveholders regarding Confederate memorabilia, monuments, Southern war heroes, etc., etc.  For example, organizations like the Sons of Confederate Veterans view General P. G. T. Beauregard as a heroic military strategist who defeated Union forces at the First Battle of Bull Run in 1861 and at Petersburg in 1864.  The descendants of slaves, however, view him not as General Beauregard, but as a general holding No regard for the humanity and personhood of enslaved African Americans.  His views, like most Southerners, coincided with the opinion of Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court Roger Brooke Taney in the 1857 Dred Scott Case:  “They [Negroes] had for more than a century before been regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect,…”

 

As long as the descendants of slaveholders extol the likes of Beauregard and seemingly hold no regard for the painful memories of the descendants of slaves and victims of Jim Crow, the problem will be insoluble.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Dave

=

Offline Maxine Shaw

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 07:49:52 pm »
Uhhh...why, exactly, are Southerners so quick to defend blatant treason?
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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 08:10:47 am »
Uhhh...why, exactly, are Southerners so quick to defend blatant treason?
I don't get it either. Also the "It was about states' rights, not slavery" brand of bullsh*t.
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2013, 08:28:59 am »
Uhhh...why, exactly, are Southerners so quick to defend blatant treason?

Its hard enough to get Southerners to accept that forming the Confedracy was blatant treason in the first place.


Offline michaelintp

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 06:55:11 am »
The quote above from Justice Taney demonstrates such a common human trait -- rationalization. To abuse another group of persons, one must dehumanize and/or vilify them. Most decent folk raised in a culture that extolls the value of individual liberty won't say, "Oh yes, I'm oppressing and brutalizing perfectly decent folk who are just like me, depriving them of their freedom because lining my pockets is more important than the principles we cherish."

As to the treason point, though, today we take it for granted that an independent state that voluntarily joins a union of other independent states is irrevocably bound to that union for all time, no matter what.  At the time of the formation of the Federal Government it was not clear, up front, that once an independent sovereign state joined the union it forever relinquished its freedom to withdraw from that union. I believe this was a question that reasonable people could differ on. 

Think about whether withdrawal from a political union is, in itself, morally wrong. For example, if the South had been able to dominate the Federal Government and (through legislation or Constitutional Amendment) mandate slavery throughout the entire Union, and if as a result some Northern States elected to withdraw from the Union, I question whether such an act would constitute "treason."  Or you can imagine other circumstances where some states in a union are dominating and subjugating others, and the disadvantaged states therefore exercise their right to withdraw from what they voluntarily joined.

The real moral problem for the South wasn't "treason," in my mind, but rather the reason the Southern States chose to withdraw. Because, when push came to shove, it really was all about slavery. 

Still, as I understand it, many (most?) Southern whites did not own slaves.  Some no doubt really did believe they were defending themselves from the armies of the invading Northern States, and felt they were protecting their homeland.  Again, such a concept in and of itself is not morally repugnant.  What is repugnant are the underlying reasons the Southern States withdrew from the Union (the shifting balance of economic and political power, ultimately all surrounding the issue of slavery).

Anyway, I can't speak for the views of some Southern whites today. I grew up with the view that we (the North, the Union) were the good guys and Abraham Lincoln was a hero, the President who freed the slaves. I imagine in the South the schools taught a different narrative decades ago. Focusing on Northern domination, the rights of their sovereign states, and self-defense, while downplaying and whitewashing the issue of slavery.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 08:37:58 am by michaelintp »
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Offline Lion

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 11:38:30 am »
Not on topic, but not completely unrelated...

My nephew is in Nashville. Last week, his fourth grade teacher told the class "Slavery wasn't that bad. They had a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs."

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 11:45:04 am »
Good God.

I'm not sure why I'm surprised tho.

Offline michaelintp

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2013, 12:24:07 pm »
Wow. Lion, your comment is totally on point. Revealing the psychology involved. The downplaying and whitewashing of slavery is still taking place. In order to minimize what is, in reality, an insurmountable moral problem.
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
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because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
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Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline Battle

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 12:37:48 pm »
Not on topic, but not completely unrelated...

My nephew is in Nashville. Last week, his fourth grade teacher told the class "Slavery wasn't that bad. They had a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs."



Was the teacher white?

Offline michaelintp

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 12:45:04 pm »
Not on topic, but not completely unrelated...

My nephew is in Nashville. Last week, his fourth grade teacher told the class "Slavery wasn't that bad. They had a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs."



Was the teacher white?

Haha Battle, I didn't even bother asking that question. I would be really shocked were a black or Latino to make that statement. Only Southern whites would feel the emotional "need" to downplay slavery, as it only reflects negatively on their history (not black or brown Southerners)  Still, it is fair question to pin down.  Lion?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 01:02:00 pm by michaelintp »
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline Lion

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 01:02:48 pm »
Yes, Battle. She is White. She's in her 50's, which makes it even worse given that she's probably been teaching for 30 years.

At the time I was growing up in this town, there was usually maybe 1 other minority in the classroom the entire time. When we got to the unit on Colonial America, it was basically "slavery happened" and glossed right over the nitty gritty. I had books at home. That didn't bother me. Not once did I ever hear anything like what my nephew's teacher said. Then again, I live and grew up in OH.

I tend to support teachers... but I swear to God if that had been my son instead of my nephew, I would go out of my way to make sure that woman didn't have a job. Teaching that sentiment to White children is bad enough, but it is shows absolute callous disregard for the humanity of Black children. "Yeah... We supplied you food, shelter, and employment and your ungrateful asses started a war over it!"

What encourages me, however, is that my nephew's classmates are furious. They've even told him that the teacher has been treating him mean. (Which she has... but that's another subject.)

Offline michaelintp

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 01:16:53 pm »
Good kids!  Let's hope they report back to their parents.   :)
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 02:39:51 pm »
It was not about slavery…

it was about taxation & nationalism vs. federalism. We live under a federal government which is the U.S.A. (keywords- united states). The north & south had very different ways of circulating their economies. Slaves did not pay taxes nor did they make taxed-purchases (goods, services, investments, etc) or contribute directly to universal-capitalism & consumerism. This means millions of people (southern slaves) lived tax free.  It was more profitable to include rather than exclude millions of people from individual taxation.

Name a person in this country that doesn’t pay taxes?  Wesley Snipes?  Slaves didn’t...
 


Not to mention the West had yet to be won. Do you see all that 'grey-area' in the image above? It's the grey-areas they never talk about. They were playing for higher stakes & Lincoln knew it. The south wanted a piece of the bigger pie. Emancipation what? Just a more efficient way to exploit, all citizens.

Before all of that… the French owned most of the south & mid amerigo. Creole, anyone? They bought/purchased it back & that’s what planted the seed for all the Beauregards to come. Had it not been for the slave revolt in Haiti, Napolean would not have sold-out to the U.s.
 


Inferiority? Knowledge was born in Africa.
 

Offline michaelintp

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2013, 06:05:07 pm »
I'm not following your point about taxes as there was no Federal Income Tax back then. I'm not suggesting you are wrong. Just not following.

But to the extent you are right and secession was really not about slavery but over something else (you suggest a hoped-for territorial land grab) then to that extent we are just talking about economics and natural resources divorced from the stigma of slavery. Things that the descendants of Southern Confederates might not find to be as morally problematic today. So viewed, Southern whites today may argue that their ancestors still deserve to be honored as they were just pursuing what what was in their States' best interest. No?  I'm not embracing this hypothetical argument, but I can see it being made if it really "was not about slavery."
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

APEXABYSS

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Re: BEAUregard or NO Regard?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2013, 06:38:33 pm »
I'm not following your point about taxes as there was no Federal Income Tax back then. I'm not suggesting you are wrong. Just not following.


CORRECT!! There was no federal tax (not really) but state taxes or tariffs existed. Federal taxes are not State taxes… that’s why we pay both. They were pushing for Fed taxes since the 1700s & didn’t succeed until the 1900s. thanks to the participation of millions of ex-slaves.

nationalism vs. federalism