Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS  (Read 1091209 times)

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1125 on: November 23, 2013, 05:56:16 am »
It was T'Challa's giving the Avengers refuge in Wakanda during AvX that led to Namor's near genocidal attack on the nations sovereign soil and it's T'Challa's invitating the Illuminati into Wakanda via the backdoor of the Necropolis, that led to Thanos and his death merchants visiting war upon Wakanda once again leading to the loss of many lives.

...............

Actually Thanos came partially because Shuri destroyed Atlantis.  Namor was so devastated that he told Thanos' commander that what they sought was in Wakanda.  If she had agreed to the peace offering from Namor, he would never have surrendered that information and lie.   Without that lie Thanos might have waited till later to invade and Thanos initial attacks had nothing to do with the Illuminati's actions.  Thanks attacked initially looking for his son and the stones that the previous Illumunati collected.   BP was not one of them.

Where are the Illuminati currently based?

Who invited them onto Wakandan soil without seeking permission from or even informing Queen Shuri?

Shuri was under no obligation to do anything other than hear Namor's so-called peace proposal which even T'Challa admitted he would have rejected so ultimately, Namor's overture was doomed right from the start as he was really in no position to make an offer of peace following the atrocity he commited against Wakanda and her people during AvX.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1126 on: November 23, 2013, 06:40:23 pm »
It was T'Challa's giving the Avengers refuge in Wakanda during AvX that led to Namor's near genocidal attack on the nations sovereign soil and it's T'Challa's invitating the Illuminati into Wakanda via the backdoor of the Necropolis, that led to Thanos and his death merchants visiting war upon Wakanda once again leading to the loss of many lives.

...............

Actually Thanos came partially because Shuri destroyed Atlantis.  Namor was so devastated that he told Thanos' commander that what they sought was in Wakanda.  If she had agreed to the peace offering from Namor, he would never have surrendered that information and lie.   Without that lie Thanos might have waited till later to invade and Thanos initial attacks had nothing to do with the Illuminati's actions.  Thanks attacked initially looking for his son and the stones that the previous Illumunati collected.   BP was not one of them.

Where are the Illuminati currently based?

Who invited them onto Wakandan soil without seeking permission from or even informing Queen Shuri?

Shuri was under no obligation to do anything other than hear Namor's so-called peace proposal which even T'Challa admitted he would have rejected so ultimately, Namor's overture was doomed right from the start as he was really in no position to make an offer of peace following the atrocity he commited against Wakanda and her people during AvX.

I had another answer in mind,  but something hit me.   We might be reading Hickman's intent differently.   The way I am reading this,  I think he is setting her up to fail.  I wouldn't be surprised if when it is all said and done,  T'Challa is the only Black Panther.  Her decisions are bad and T'Challa  are right because that is the route Hickman is going.

I could be wrong,  but he started this title by saying T'Challa was the moral center and you can't be the moral center of you are in the wrong.   But maybe he will turn out to be wrong and she is right.   Or they both will turn out to be partly right and partly wrong; these next couple of issues should show us what way this is going.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 06:42:13 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1127 on: November 24, 2013, 03:18:11 am »
It was T'Challa's giving the Avengers refuge in Wakanda during AvX that led to Namor's near genocidal attack on the nations sovereign soil and it's T'Challa's invitating the Illuminati into Wakanda via the backdoor of the Necropolis, that led to Thanos and his death merchants visiting war upon Wakanda once again leading to the loss of many lives.

...............

Actually Thanos came partially because Shuri destroyed Atlantis.  Namor was so devastated that he told Thanos' commander that what they sought was in Wakanda.  If she had agreed to the peace offering from Namor, he would never have surrendered that information and lie.   Without that lie Thanos might have waited till later to invade and Thanos initial attacks had nothing to do with the Illuminati's actions.  Thanks attacked initially looking for his son and the stones that the previous Illumunati collected.   BP was not one of them.

Where are the Illuminati currently based?

Who invited them onto Wakandan soil without seeking permission from or even informing Queen Shuri?

Shuri was under no obligation to do anything other than hear Namor's so-called peace proposal which even T'Challa admitted he would have rejected so ultimately, Namor's overture was doomed right from the start as he was really in no position to make an offer of peace following the atrocity he commited against Wakanda and her people during AvX.

I had another answer in mind,  but something hit me.   We might be reading Hickman's intent differently.   The way I am reading this,  I think he is setting her up to fail.  I wouldn't be surprised if when it is all said and done,  T'Challa is the only Black Panther.  Her decisions are bad and T'Challa  are right because that is the route Hickman is going.

I could be wrong,  but he started this title by saying T'Challa was the moral center and you can't be the moral center of you are in the wrong.   But maybe he will turn out to be wrong and she is right.   Or they both will turn out to be partly right and partly wrong; these next couple of issues should show us what way this is going.

You pose some interesting questions regarding Hickman's endgame intent for T'Challa and Shuri but lets also consider the fact that even though T'Challa is touted as being the "moral centre" of the book, that doesn't necessarily translate into him being automatically right.

He's still as fallible as other people which is probably something that Hickman will further explore as the story progresses.

Solid post. :)

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1128 on: November 24, 2013, 02:26:52 pm »
While I cannot intelligently discuss the yet to happen conclusion of the Infinity saga and the next direction of the Panthers...

Quote
I'm more interested in seeing where Hickman is planning to take Shuri as a character.  Salustrade

Herein lies one of Tchalla the Black Panther's conundrums. Hickman has Tchalla's supporting character behaving in a manner best applied to him and achieving the accomplishments that should be exclusively his. While this makes for an interesting Shuri it leaves Tchallla wanting.

"What giants do" can't be attributed to Tchalla if he doesn't fight his own battles nor when he does, we don't get to see it on panel.

Shuri should have been given her own name... Wild Cat, given her own costume... Panther armor, given her own responsibilities... head of Wakandan Design Group and do things like reinstating the Hatue Zeraze.

Tchalla should have been written as having reclaimed the rulership of Wakanda.Tchalla should have been written pursuing Namor and devestating Atlantis. Tchalla should have been written as manipulating the Illuminati to serve his ends. Tchalla is a giant and this is what giants do.

As for his being the moral center... this position has castrated the Black Panther one too many times. During the Korvac Saga in Avengers he wouldn't attack a woman. In Panther's Quest he let the kidnapper and rapist of his mother walk away scott free. At the conclusion of Doomwar, Doom is allowed to leave with a stern warning. The same stern warning was given to the Red Skull.

These and other instances are what cause the fibrillations in the perception of the Black Panther. Pre and Post Priest (whom some may feel gave Tchalla his aura of invincibility) most writers of the Black Panther have presented Tchalla in over his head or outright ignored his prowess and potential in a given situation.

Quote
At what point will T'Challa be portrayed taking responsibility for his many mistakes as regards always seeming to put the interests of outsiders before those of his fellow Wakandans?

This right here. This is the preeminent question. Why is Tchalla written in such a mannner? Apparently some writers of the Black Panther don't want him to be a giant, just a more flawed and conflicted character. This in tune makes him more relatable to some undisclosed demographic.

I feel confident that major comic book company writers visit the messageboards and fan fiction sites. Why not there is a plethora of ideas waiting to be mined.
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Offline Seven

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1129 on: November 25, 2013, 08:19:38 am »
Marvel is always going to skew toward the flawed hero, that's the Marvel way. The difference is will he be bad ass and compelling.
There is a great article on Comicalliance about D.C wanting to be Marvel and how Marvel characters are and their core premise.  Which is why you see Superman snapping necks, and bunch of evil supermans currently (Earth-2, Injustice, Ultraman), how Frank Millar's Batman was just Daredevil and so on.

I think we are on the right track.


Peter Parker is dead. Spiderman is one of Peter's biggest villains and a black/latino kid (Miles). So Shuri being Queen is perfectly fine imho. T'challa is finally in a position that is not easily ignored. That matters more to me. This is a long term plan and it's still early.

For all the talk about Wakanda and Shuri being Queen. This is what T'challa being King meant.




Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1130 on: November 25, 2013, 02:42:31 pm »
Completely random but when Hickman was writing the Ultimates I wanted him to fix Ultimate T'Challa

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1131 on: November 26, 2013, 07:15:14 pm »
I'm online lazy.  Where would a person get a copy of Hickman's Panther?

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1132 on: November 26, 2013, 08:14:52 pm »
You can purchase a digital download of New Avengers from Marvels website. Here is a link to the newest issue coming out tomorrow as well as previous issues. http://marvel.com/comics/issue/43526/new_avengers_2013_12

If you want to find a comic store near you try this link.
http://www.comicshoplocator.com/Home/1/1/57/575
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1133 on: November 26, 2013, 10:07:45 pm »
Marvel is always going to skew toward the flawed hero, that's the Marvel way. The difference is will he be bad ass and compelling.
There is a great article on Comicalliance about D.C wanting to be Marvel and how Marvel characters are and their core premise.  Which is why you see Superman snapping necks, and bunch of evil supermans currently (Earth-2, Injustice, Ultraman), how Frank Millar's Batman was just Daredevil and so on.

I think we are on the right track.


Peter Parker is dead. Spiderman is one of Peter's biggest villains and a black/latino kid (Miles). So Shuri being Queen is perfectly fine imho. T'challa is finally in a position that is not easily ignored. That matters more to me. This is a long term plan and it's still early.

For all the talk about Wakanda and Shuri being Queen. This is what T'challa being King meant.






Seven, we agree on the skew of Marvel. My interpretation of their flawed hero is defined as an often infirmed (DD, Iron man), humanistic (FF), everyman (Spider-man), who is sometimes morally challenged while remaining honorable (Wolverine). In addition they are socially relavent and often in flow with the zeitgeist of the time. At their best Marvel heroes are all this and "compelling bad asses."

I also concur with you that Hickman is on the right track. The train however has missed a couple of stops and avoided the tunnel. The fight with Black Dwarf, Tchalla himself ordering the destruction of Atlantis; and as of this date with 13 issues in (this is the tunnel), the title King of the Dead remains nebulous, and  undefined. I know we are only a year in with much more to come but BP fans are too often placed in hurry up and wait mode.

Peter Parker has reached the pinnacle of what it is to be a comic book superhero. Spider-man is iconic. The primary reason for his status is Marvel's editors and writers very rarely blunted the core elemnts that defined the character. Tchalla's core elements have often been in flux post his introduction. From Deadliest of the Species up to (but not including) New Avengers the Black Panther's core elements - kingship, prep master and the inviolability of Wakanda have been so obfuscated that becoming guardian of Hell's Kitchen was not only tenable but became the preferred choice of vocation.

I think the true difficulty in writing the Black Panther's core elements lies in interpreting an autonomous Afrakan society. In a climate of political correctness and a pretense of all inclusiveness which in fact cloaks many Eurocentric mores, true cultural diversity is subsumed more so than expressed. This manifests as an ignorance or dismissal of certain historical and cultural facts that would need to be predicated upon in order for this Afrakan ruler (the Black Panther) to exist. The matter becomes more complicated when the errors, hypocrisies, paradoxes (which all people go through) of the Afrakan are filtered through the lens of racism and bigotry.

Hickman's train will be entering a new station soon and I am looking forward to a few more stops that will be definitive in establishing the Black Panther.

Completely random but when Hickman was writing the Ultimates I wanted him to fix Ultimate T'Challa


I'm with you on that one Genki.

Let's see what tomorrow brings.



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« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 02:16:07 pm by Ture »
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Offline A.Curry

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1134 on: November 27, 2013, 08:31:49 am »
Im eagerly awaiting seeing what some of you, given what you are looking to come out of the Panther in this run, will think of this morning's New Avengers.

Not what I was expecting at all, and it looks like the trials and tribulations for T'challa are just starting...

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1135 on: November 27, 2013, 12:56:16 pm »
Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1136 on: November 27, 2013, 12:59:38 pm »
I don't want to spoil anything yet but I see one of two courses coming. .. both could be fascinating.   Both may require me to change what I thought was coming and my interpretation of previous events.

Right now this is the best title out there.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 01:18:08 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Seven

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1137 on: November 27, 2013, 01:13:56 pm »
I don't want to spoil anything yet but I see one of two courses coming. .. both could be fascinating.   Both may require me to change what I thought was coming and my inspiration of previous events.

Right now this is the best title out there.

I agree with you 100 %. Some may not like it, but I love it. This is pretty much the best thing Marvel is doing. T'challa is right in the middle of it.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1138 on: November 27, 2013, 01:20:59 pm »
Btw Infinity the Hunt seems to take place in Wakanda and has serious ramifications to the Wakanda/Atlantis situation.

Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1139 on: November 27, 2013, 08:39:25 pm »
This had me all messed up this morning

Since the first issue of NA the clouds of this formed over his head

In this issue that downpour came

I'm happy that despite T'Challa doing what he did for the greater good he knew the heavy price and when the time to pay that debt came in he paid it

Where it goes from here is both exciting and frightening