Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710: THE PROTOCOLS - Letitia Wright Speaks on Black Panther Sequel  (Read 1330206 times)

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1140 on: November 27, 2013, 09:48:52 pm »
New Avengers #12 concluded extremely well. The breadth and scale of what transpired coupled with the possibility of what lies ahead is simply very good story telling on Hickman's part. Deodato's art is outstanding, especially his renderings of all things Black Panther. I appreciate the rich complexions given to the Dora Milaje and Tchalla. So hats off to Frank Martin.

The Black Panther begins the book and holds on for nearly half the issue... uninterrupted. It this kind of detail to Tchalla and company that has Hickman on the short list of potential writers for a BP solo. Hickman's other talent concerning the Black Panther lies in doing things with Tchalla that I wouldn't sign off on; yet he makes them compelling enough for me to follow the bread crumbs.

I can see why many Black Panther fans support Tchalla being in the New Avengers and how after a couple of years of this level of story telling the benefits could be substantial and for the most part I agree. What Hickman has done thus far has been significant for the Black Panther but it can still stand a little tweeking in Wakandan cultural terms most of which would not compromise the Black Panther as much as enhance him.

In story Tchalla is often abandoned by his people. This happens way too often. Peter B. Gillis mini series, Maberry's Doomwar and now in the pages of Hickman's New Avengers. Where is the respect for and confidence in Tchalla? Someone who has single handedly saved Wakanda on multiple occasions? Where is the trust of those who know and love him? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla has a penchant for seeking outside assistance. The FF, the Avengers, Deadpool, the Illuminati. What did any of these guest stars deliver that Wakanda couldn't bring to the table by itself? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla confided as much if not more in Reed Richards, Matt Murdock, Everett K. Ross and Sofija as he did with Ororo, Shuri, his mother or the Wakandan council. After witnessing the events post Infinity what would it have cost Tchalla to have confided in his sister? Hell Maberry's Doomwar gave us that much. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla is too often depicted as a loser. He lost the Panther spirit, he lost to Doom, he lost the kingship of Wakanda he lost the vibranium, he lost his wife and recently he lost the keys to the Golden City. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

Are these the supposed circumstances that make it necessary for Reed to be chosen as a spirit brother? Is this the impetus that throws Tchalla into the arms of the Black Swan? Is this what coerces Tchalla to become indebted to the services Illuminati?

It doesn't make Wakandan cultural sense that Wakandans would work for, capitulate to or show excessive acts of mercy to the rapist, enemies and killers of their people. Anton Petoris, Red Skull, Achebe, Dr. Doom, the Kingpin, or Namor. I 'm not even sure Namor's contribution to the Illuminati would have been missed if Tchalla had indeed killed him before Thanos' invasion. Speaking of Thanos... trapped in amber and housed in the city of the dead. Irony for you. The Necropolis of Wakanda is getting ripe for a massive jail break with all the super villains that are housed there. Back to my point.

For all the lip service paid to cultural diversity and freedom of expression, conforming to the western norm remains paramount. Wakandans are not African Americans, Black Brits, Angolans, Senegalese, Bahamian, Rasta, Hebrew Israelite, Muslim or Christian. Wakandans are an Afrakan people who have not been under the yoke of non Afrakan cultural imperialism. They need to be written as such.

For a Black Panther ongoing series to maintain traction the culture of Wakanda must be understood and consistently displayed. This may mean more in house Black Panther action. Instead of Doom and the Red Skull create villains that can be dealt the full severity of Wakandan retribution. Demonstrate the advance scientific achievements of the many polymaths that exist in Wakanda. Show the Wakandan priest/priestess hood performing magic and rituals that would baffle Strange himself. Unleash the Wakandan defense fleet.

I would like to think if given the opportunity to write a BP solo concurrent with New Avengers Hickman would have significantly fleshed out all the Black Panther related activities.  Everything Hickman has done with the Black Panther in New Avengers would work well in a solo series. He just has to remember the culture of whom he is dealing with.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 10:06:26 pm by Ture »
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Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1141 on: November 27, 2013, 11:37:53 pm »

In story Tchalla is often abandoned by his people. This happens way too often. Peter B. Gillis mini series, Maberry's Doomwar and now in the pages of Hickman's New Avengers. Where is the respect for and confidence in Tchalla? Someone who has single handedly saved Wakanda on multiple occasions? Where is the trust of those who know and love him? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

And New York flip flops on Spider-Man, one minute they love him and the next he ain't worth a squirrel fart

I could throw in Mcgregor, Priest and Hudlin as counter points especially when bringing up Doomwar which went to Roy Thomas levels of train wreck

In story Tchalla has a penchant for seeking outside assistance. The FF, the Avengers, Deadpool, the Illuminati. What did any of these guest stars deliver that Wakanda couldn't bring to the table by itself? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

Whatever the story calls for minus the non available time to introduce a new character, we don't know if after T'Challa if there is another wakandan who out of thin air with no background story or previous mention rivals T'Challa in intellect and let us not forget that T'Challa himself ventured outside of Wakanda to expand his brain. Remember T'Challa when in charge was all about opening Wakandan borders to a certain point like his father

In story Tchalla confided as much if not more in Reed Richards, Matt Murdock, Everett K. Ross and Sofija as he did with Ororo, Shuri, his mother or the Wakandan council. After witnessing the events post Infinity what would it have cost Tchalla to have confided in his sister? Hell Maberry's Doomwar gave us that much. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

We saw as much what was going to happen when he would tell his sister that public enemy number one has come in and out of Wakanda more then once, there's nothing that comes out of that conversation with everything being close to ok and that's not even getting into the fact that public enemy number two the former queen and her sex partner after sneaking in also got to leave with a handshake and a thanks for coming.

T'Challa was written as ultimately for saving the universe he would have to betray everything he holds dear

In story Tchalla is too often depicted as a loser. He lost the Panther spirit, he lost to Doom, he lost the kingship of Wakanda he lost the vibranium, he lost his wife and recently he lost the keys to the Golden City. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

And he is also depicted as a winner, the vibranium was never really lost so I don't know why bringing up Doomwar again does as the ending to that was quickly changed by Hickman and even a little bit by Liss. Let's not forget that T'Challa also owned Kingpin in a game of wits which is rarely a way the Kingpin has been depicted as being beaten, he broke Red Skull's jaw after telling him he would do so and he's helped stop incursions. Doom is the unfans fav mary sue( and some writers fav mary sue as well ) with the only one to ever get a clean one up on him that was accepted by unfans is the loss to Squirrel Girl and that should tell you something and he didn't lose Storm since she lost him and then claimed to not know the why of it all( and you could make a case for her being gone as a good thing ).


Are these the supposed circumstances that make it necessary for Reed to be chosen as a spirit brother?

They've always been close the only difference now is that it's being played up more then just getting a quick mention and then moved away from

Is this the impetus that throws Tchalla into the arms of the Black Swan?

Who knows

Is this what coerces Tchalla to become indebted to the services Illuminati?

He wouldn't be in their debt, back in the tail end of the first issue he makes a point in his narration box to mention that by bringing together this group he walked away from that he has damned himself no matter what

And that is why T'Challa shined here and Hickman is deserving of the praise he's been getting no matter how much some fans want to throw hissy fits and complain

It doesn't make Wakandan cultural sense that Wakandans would work for, capitulate to or show excessive acts of mercy to the rapist, enemies and killers of their people.

Which is what T'Challa was written as knowing and why he kept Namor being there a secret, the Doras in the second issue even mention they fear how Shuri and the people of Wakanda would react if they found out Namor was there and with this issue we found out, that type of lazy writing my fly over in the x-world but outside of that the creative team involved tend to hope that their fans are more receptive to great storytelling then half assedness

I 'm not even sure Namor's contribution to the Illuminati would have been missed if Tchalla had indeed killed him before Thanos' invasion.

Then that would have altered things as Thanos wouldn't have come to Wakanda and gotten hold of the bombs, Namor is one guy who's writting checks that his ass soon won't be able to cash anymore

The Necropolis of Wakanda is getting ripe for a massive jail break with all the super villains that are housed there. Back to my point.

And who ever said they were to be there permanently as the Illuminati have been basically jumping from trouble spot to trouble spot with a rare break few and between, there's also the fact that someone might ask who is that they're bringing in when again the goal is secrecy

For all the lip service paid to cultural diversity and freedom of expression, conforming to the western norm remains paramount. Wakandans are not African Americans, Black Brits, Angolans, Senegalese, Bahamian, Rasta, Hebrew Israelite, Muslim or Christian. Wakandans are an Afrakan people who have not been under the yoke of non Afrakan cultural imperialism. They need to be written as such.

This is mainly about T'Challa any and all full things Wakandan would need to be handled in a solo series which this is not

For a Black Panther ongoing series to maintain traction the culture of Wakanda must be understood and consistently displayed. This may mean more in house Black Panther action. Instead of Doom and the Red Skull create villains that can be dealt the full severity of Wakandan retribution. Demonstrate the advance scientific achievements of the many polymaths that exist in Wakanda. Show the Wakandan priest/priestess hood performing magic and rituals that would baffle Strange himself. Unleash the Wakandan defense fleet.

New Avengers isn't a T'Challa solo title, wanting all of that in a title called New Avengers is a wasted effort

In fact Hickman and company don't even have to write T'Challa as well as they have been doing let alone the linchpin of this comic

I would like to think if given the opportunity to write a BP solo concurrent with New Avengers Hickman would have significantly fleshed out all the Black Panther related activities.  Everything Hickman has done with the Black Panther in New Avengers would work well in a solo series. He just has to remember the culture of whom he is dealing with.

With that said I don't know why you're nitpicking things you know given about the book, that's like me going on about how Mighty avengers hasn't built up Blue Marvel like it's his solo title

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1142 on: November 28, 2013, 03:04:24 am »
If anything, I'd be more inclined to worry about about how this ends for Shuri then B.P.

Remember, without T'challa, she is just stuck with her own resources and the insurrectionist
knuckleheads that never liked her in the first place.

Its not like the Hatut Zeraze have a history of loyalty, or anything.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1143 on: November 28, 2013, 04:03:10 am »
Well I just got done reading New Avengers #12 and all I can say is that T'Challa had it coming.

He should never have kept the matter of the Incursions, the Illuminati and Namor from his sister especially as the Necropolis is within Wakandan borders.

Namor was able to direct Proxima Midnight and the rest of Thanos's forces to Wakanda ecause of the Illuminati having their base of operations there so it goes without saying that T'Challa has been responsible for Wakanda getting smited twice in rapid succession.

Under the circumstances, he's luky that Shuri didn't just make an attempt at slaping the stupid off of him rather than opting to go bury the valiant dead who paid for T'Challa's folly with their lifeslood.

Now the Dora  Milaje and the Hatut Zeraze stand united under Queen Shuri while T'Challa stands alone with the soundtrack of Namor's mocking laughter on continuous loop in the background.

Hickman has done a masterful job of illustrating the imperfections that lie at the centre of T'Challa's much vaunted poker faced ingenuity and in doing this, he has paved the way for T'Challa to really evolve into something greater and much more dangerous than he's ever been before.

As always, Black Swan remains supremely intriguing and very compelling as a character who is a solid equal to any and all of the Illuminati and as such, an incredibly powerful character in her own right.

The sight of her looking up at an amber encased Thanos and Proxima Midnight was quite illuminating and illustrative of the fact that Princess Yabbat Ummon Tarru see's a picture much bigger than Thanos petty quest to exterminate his progeny.

For in the end, what are the petty small minded pogroms of a Mad Titan and his motley crew when set against the tapestry of the end of all realities by way of the Great Destroyer?

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1144 on: November 28, 2013, 06:52:11 am »
If anything, I'd be more inclined to worry about about how this ends for Shuri then B.P.

Remember, without T'challa, she is just stuck with her own resources and the insurrectionist
knuckleheads that never liked her in the first place.

Its not like the Hatut Zeraze have a history of loyalty, or anything.

there are a couple of ways this could play out.  One is Civil War, because I can't imagine that all of Wakanda will side with her.  Your point about the HZ and then there is T'Challa.  Plus, there are those rival tribes in Wakanda that have always tried to take over.  This is prime time.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1145 on: November 28, 2013, 07:04:18 am »
Well I just got done reading New Avengers #12 and all I can say is that T'Challa had it coming.

He should never have kept the matter of the Incursions, the Illuminati and Namor from his sister especially as the Necropolis is within Wakandan borders.

Namor was able to direct Proxima Midnight and the rest of Thanos's forces to Wakanda ecause of the Illuminati having their base of operations there so it goes without saying that T'Challa has been responsible for Wakanda getting smited twice in rapid succession.

Under the circumstances, he's luky that Shuri didn't just make an attempt at slaping the stupid off of him rather than opting to go bury the valiant dead who paid for T'Challa's folly with their lifeslood.

I don't think the Illuminati's base being there had any play in Namor's retaliation.  I mean, he told them the Infinity Gem was in Wakanda, and it wasn't.  It is just that once they arrived, they found the Illuminati's stuff, but they didn't come for that stuff.

I think Ture brings up an interesting point, what does Namor bring to the table now?  BP spared Namor's life because as King of Atlantis and holder of an infinity gem, he brought something to the table.  Now, he has neither Atlantis nor the Gem; so what does he bring to the table.  BP could seek vengeance now; and they could replace Namor with Thor who would bring much more to the table in terms of power and resources.

Another thing that has got my interest going on this storyline is Shuri's reasoning.  It bothers me that she would invade Atlantis when Namor wasn't there.  Why would she do that?  Surely she knew that Namor would retaliate.  (True, she probably didn't think he could send something she couldn't handle.  There was no way for her to predict that he would trick Thanos into attacking Wakanda.)  But surely she knew he would retaliate.  Though, from her comments after fighting Black Dwarf, she does seem to think that everyone backs off if they get their hands slapped. 

The wise thing to do is to take Atlantis when Namor was there and take them both out at once so neither one can seek vengence; (I mean either kill him or bring him in for Wakandan justice/courts.)  I can think of two reasons, strategically, to attack when Namor wasn't around is either, a) they didn't think they could win against both Namor and Atlantis, or b) they couldn't find him/reach him, so they cut off his heart and resources.  But the idea that they couldn't find Namor is fascinating.  Wakandan intelligent services have few rivals.  So, was T'challa actually not just brining Namor there, but shielding him from Wakandan intelligent services?  No wonder Shuri is mad.

Offline A.Curry

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1146 on: November 28, 2013, 07:56:41 am »
If anything, I'd be more inclined to worry about about how this ends for Shuri then B.P.

Remember, without T'challa, she is just stuck with her own resources and the insurrectionist
knuckleheads that never liked her in the first place.

Its not like the Hatut Zeraze have a history of loyalty, or anything.

I'd agree, but I dunno...the Hatut Zeraze seem pretty loyal to her now considering the actions of that one soldier T'challa slapped down. (though it could be a concerted effort to turn Shuri against her brother) and not the Dora Milaje have turned on him as well and sold him out to his sister.
If she rules the golden city and the Hatut and Dora are with her, she's pretty much got all the resources she needs. 

What I do think is that she's head-strong and not savvy or smart enough to know who is her enemy and who is her friend.  If an insurrection or planned overthrow of her is planned, then she will need T'challa...

Offline A.Curry

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1147 on: November 28, 2013, 10:29:56 am »
New Avengers #12 concluded extremely well. The breadth and scale of what transpired coupled with the possibility of what lies ahead is simply very good story telling on Hickman's part. Deodato's art is outstanding, especially his renderings of all things Black Panther. I appreciate the rich complexions given to the Dora Milaje and Tchalla. So hats off to Frank Martin.

The Black Panther begins the book and holds on for nearly half the issue... uninterrupted. It this kind of detail to Tchalla and company that has Hickman on the short list of potential writers for a BP solo. Hickman's other talent concerning the Black Panther lies in doing things with Tchalla that I wouldn't sign off on; yet he makes them compelling enough for me to follow the bread crumbs.

I can see why many Black Panther fans support Tchalla being in the New Avengers and how after a couple of years of this level of story telling the benefits could be substantial and for the most part I agree. What Hickman has done thus far has been significant for the Black Panther but it can still stand a little tweeking in Wakandan cultural terms most of which would not compromise the Black Panther as much as enhance him.

In story Tchalla is often abandoned by his people. This happens way too often. Peter B. Gillis mini series, Maberry's Doomwar and now in the pages of Hickman's New Avengers. Where is the respect for and confidence in Tchalla? Someone who has single handedly saved Wakanda on multiple occasions? Where is the trust of those who know and love him? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla has a penchant for seeking outside assistance. The FF, the Avengers, Deadpool, the Illuminati. What did any of these guest stars deliver that Wakanda couldn't bring to the table by itself? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla confided as much if not more in Reed Richards, Matt Murdock, Everett K. Ross and Sofija as he did with Ororo, Shuri, his mother or the Wakandan council. After witnessing the events post Infinity what would it have cost Tchalla to have confided in his sister? Hell Maberry's Doomwar gave us that much. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla is too often depicted as a loser. He lost the Panther spirit, he lost to Doom, he lost the kingship of Wakanda he lost the vibranium, he lost his wife and recently he lost the keys to the Golden City. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

Are these the supposed circumstances that make it necessary for Reed to be chosen as a spirit brother? Is this the impetus that throws Tchalla into the arms of the Black Swan? Is this what coerces Tchalla to become indebted to the services Illuminati?

It doesn't make Wakandan cultural sense that Wakandans would work for, capitulate to or show excessive acts of mercy to the rapist, enemies and killers of their people. Anton Petoris, Red Skull, Achebe, Dr. Doom, the Kingpin, or Namor. I 'm not even sure Namor's contribution to the Illuminati would have been missed if Tchalla had indeed killed him before Thanos' invasion. Speaking of Thanos... trapped in amber and housed in the city of the dead. Irony for you. The Necropolis of Wakanda is getting ripe for a massive jail break with all the super villains that are housed there. Back to my point.

For all the lip service paid to cultural diversity and freedom of expression, conforming to the western norm remains paramount. Wakandans are not African Americans, Black Brits, Angolans, Senegalese, Bahamian, Rasta, Hebrew Israelite, Muslim or Christian. Wakandans are an Afrakan people who have not been under the yoke of non Afrakan cultural imperialism. They need to be written as such.

For a Black Panther ongoing series to maintain traction the culture of Wakanda must be understood and consistently displayed. This may mean more in house Black Panther action. Instead of Doom and the Red Skull create villains that can be dealt the full severity of Wakandan retribution. Demonstrate the advance scientific achievements of the many polymaths that exist in Wakanda. Show the Wakandan priest/priestess hood performing magic and rituals that would baffle Strange himself. Unleash the Wakandan defense fleet.

I would like to think if given the opportunity to write a BP solo concurrent with New Avengers Hickman would have significantly fleshed out all the Black Panther related activities.  Everything Hickman has done with the Black Panther in New Avengers would work well in a solo series. He just has to remember the culture of whom he is dealing with.

wow...these are excellent points and your love for the series is apparent.  Count me in thinking though that this membership in the NA is one of the best things to happen to T'challa and I havent enjoyed him on the drawn and written page this much since the Priest run.  Hickman is my top choice if a Panther series was to emerge from this.

It seems that a hero who has political standing being abandoned by all or some of his/her people makes for great conflict and drama in story telling.  It happens to Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and others.  It seems lately to be happening a LOT with T'Challa though, and Im surprised Hickman went there again.  But as Salustrade implied on here, he's kinda been asking for it.   I agree with his need to have Namor and the Illuminati around, but keeping it secret for as long as he did...he was gonna get found out sooner or later.  I actually think Don McGregor shines out as the one that showed Wakandans being loyal to him the most out of other writer's runs.


As for the guest stars and help from others...NA is a team book so they are going to show T'challa working with and confiding in other members in the team he is close with for the sake of keeping up the appearances of a team book.  Also, since he isnt king anymore, maybe he doesnt have the relations or trust with his inner council the way he once had.  Also, even when he has a solo or in a story centered around him, guest stars can help sell a book.  I believe many times Panther is not a character that always can sell well on his own, and having guest stars, especially high-profile ones, involved in his machinations and book not only shows him being a part of the larger MU, it quite posibly helps sell his books.  Doomwar probably wouldn't have sold as much, for instance, if the Xmen were not involved.

As for the loser part, no doubt, he has lost a lot in the past few years.   In a way though, with this newest development, Im seeing Hickman stripping things down further before a big comeback and shift in Panther's world.  And yeah, he could have confided in Shuri, but Shuri really is too headstrong and not a calm and diverse thinker...everything for her is a straight line to duty and Wakanda's invincibility.  She would have reacted and wanted Namor's head on a pike immediately, incursions or no.

In the end, I get the importance to some of showing a consistent and fully realized and autonomous picture of Wakandan culture that has little to no need of outsider help...but will this sell books?  Are there enough fans interested in that to actually buy a book centering around it, even if its a BP solo?  A character like T'Challa, especially one as controversial and, unfortunately, as polarizing as he is to some sells more as an idea and character to others "not initiated" through his interactions on the page with other characters they like.

Offline Moose100

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1148 on: November 28, 2013, 12:23:02 pm »
New Avengers #12 concluded extremely well. The breadth and scale of what transpired coupled with the possibility of what lies ahead is simply very good story telling on Hickman's part. Deodato's art is outstanding, especially his renderings of all things Black Panther. I appreciate the rich complexions given to the Dora Milaje and Tchalla. So hats off to Frank Martin.

The Black Panther begins the book and holds on for nearly half the issue... uninterrupted. It this kind of detail to Tchalla and company that has Hickman on the short list of potential writers for a BP solo. Hickman's other talent concerning the Black Panther lies in doing things with Tchalla that I wouldn't sign off on; yet he makes them compelling enough for me to follow the bread crumbs.

I can see why many Black Panther fans support Tchalla being in the New Avengers and how after a couple of years of this level of story telling the benefits could be substantial and for the most part I agree. What Hickman has done thus far has been significant for the Black Panther but it can still stand a little tweeking in Wakandan cultural terms most of which would not compromise the Black Panther as much as enhance him.

In story Tchalla is often abandoned by his people. This happens way too often. Peter B. Gillis mini series, Maberry's Doomwar and now in the pages of Hickman's New Avengers. Where is the respect for and confidence in Tchalla? Someone who has single handedly saved Wakanda on multiple occasions? Where is the trust of those who know and love him? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla has a penchant for seeking outside assistance. The FF, the Avengers, Deadpool, the Illuminati. What did any of these guest stars deliver that Wakanda couldn't bring to the table by itself? THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla confided as much if not more in Reed Richards, Matt Murdock, Everett K. Ross and Sofija as he did with Ororo, Shuri, his mother or the Wakandan council. After witnessing the events post Infinity what would it have cost Tchalla to have confided in his sister? Hell Maberry's Doomwar gave us that much. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

In story Tchalla is too often depicted as a loser. He lost the Panther spirit, he lost to Doom, he lost the kingship of Wakanda he lost the vibranium, he lost his wife and recently he lost the keys to the Golden City. THIS IS NOT GOOD WAKANDAN CULTURE.

Are these the supposed circumstances that make it necessary for Reed to be chosen as a spirit brother? Is this the impetus that throws Tchalla into the arms of the Black Swan? Is this what coerces Tchalla to become indebted to the services Illuminati?

It doesn't make Wakandan cultural sense that Wakandans would work for, capitulate to or show excessive acts of mercy to the rapist, enemies and killers of their people. Anton Petoris, Red Skull, Achebe, Dr. Doom, the Kingpin, or Namor. I 'm not even sure Namor's contribution to the Illuminati would have been missed if Tchalla had indeed killed him before Thanos' invasion. Speaking of Thanos... trapped in amber and housed in the city of the dead. Irony for you. The Necropolis of Wakanda is getting ripe for a massive jail break with all the super villains that are housed there. Back to my point.

For all the lip service paid to cultural diversity and freedom of expression, conforming to the western norm remains paramount. Wakandans are not African Americans, Black Brits, Angolans, Senegalese, Bahamian, Rasta, Hebrew Israelite, Muslim or Christian. Wakandans are an Afrakan people who have not been under the yoke of non Afrakan cultural imperialism. They need to be written as such.

For a Black Panther ongoing series to maintain traction the culture of Wakanda must be understood and consistently displayed. This may mean more in house Black Panther action. Instead of Doom and the Red Skull create villains that can be dealt the full severity of Wakandan retribution. Demonstrate the advance scientific achievements of the many polymaths that exist in Wakanda. Show the Wakandan priest/priestess hood performing magic and rituals that would baffle Strange himself. Unleash the Wakandan defense fleet.

I would like to think if given the opportunity to write a BP solo concurrent with New Avengers Hickman would have significantly fleshed out all the Black Panther related activities.  Everything Hickman has done with the Black Panther in New Avengers would work well in a solo series. He just has to remember the culture of whom he is dealing with.

This is a great post. I agree with the sentiment. But this is a team title. Also I think Wakanda is a good focus because they are formidable. Anything you see regarding the seeking for outside assistance to me enhances the narrative that this is an unprecedented and dire situation. Secondly, we must remember that T'challa will always have Wakanda in his heart but he is not king and doesn't have access to the resources he once had. Who else besides the Illuminati in Wakanda could tackle this problem? This is a circle of his peers who for the most part are equals in intellectual capacity and resources. It makes sense.

I say this knowing EXACTLY what you mean about characters that are not European needing to be "rescued" by their European peers.

Also as a side note, we have seen the Hatut Zeraze have a more legitimate position in Wakanda than we have seen since the Priest run. I wonder if we will see Hunter. Some one needs to bust him out of jail stat!!

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1149 on: November 28, 2013, 03:06:01 pm »
Reply to Genki Sudo

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And New York flip flops on Spider-Man, one minute they love him and the next he ain't worth a squirrel fart I could throw in Mcgregor, Priest and Hudlin as counter points especially when bringing up Doomwar which went to Roy Thomas levels of train wreck

New York flip flopping on Spider-man is culturally consistent especially due to the media campaign launched by JJJ. Precisely why McGregor, Priest and Hudlin were not mentioned.

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Whatever the story calls for minus the non available time to introduce a new character, we don't know if after T'Challa if there is another wakandan who out of thin air with no background story or previous mention rivals T'Challa in intellect and let us not forget that T'Challa himself ventured outside of Wakanda to expand his brain. Remember T'Challa when in charge was all about opening Wakandan borders to a certain point like his father

The story calls for whatever the writer chooses to write. They can write the Black Panther being in need or autonomous. What non available time? New characters are introduced ad nauseam. Ross, Zuri, Hunter, Achebe, the Dora Milaje, the Hatut Zeraze, Casper Cole, Shuri, Sofija. What in story benefit was derived from opening Wakandan boarders to a "certain point?"

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We saw as much what was going to happen when he would tell his sister that public enemy number one has come in and out of Wakanda more then once, there's nothing that comes out of that conversation with everything being close to ok and that's not even getting into the fact that public enemy number two the former queen and her sex partner after sneaking in also got to leave with a handshake and a thanks for coming.

T'Challa was written as ultimately for saving the universe he would have to betray everything he holds dear

Tchalla confiding in Shuri would have removed the betrayal felt by her, the Dora Milaje and the Hatut Zeraze. Could he not have been written saving the universe without betraying everything he holds dear? Could he have been written instead betraying Namor? Of course, writer's preference.

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And he is also depicted as a winner, the vibranium was never really lost so I don't know why bringing up Doomwar again does as the ending to that was quickly changed by Hickman and even a little bit by Liss. Let's not forget that T'Challa also owned Kingpin in a game of wits which is rarely a way the Kingpin has been depicted as being beaten, he broke Red Skull's jaw after telling him he would do so and he's helped stop incursions. Doom is the unfans fav mary sue( and some writers fav mary sue as well ) with the only one to ever get a clean one up on him that was accepted by unfans is the loss to Squirrel Girl and that should tell you something and he didn't lose Storm since she lost him and then claimed to not know the why of it all( and you could make a case for her being gone as a good thing ).

The bolden part of your statement supports my argument. If he is to be seen as both winner and loser, the loses have often had the greater impact. I didn't just bring up Doomwar, I brought examples of his loses. The Kingpin was a credible victory as was the Red Skull. As far as Doom is concerned Hyperstorm,Tiger Wylde, Terrax and Kristoff Vernard have gotten some work in. If the  Punisher, Cloak and Dagger and Luke Cage can score one in the win column... the point being Tchalla should have never suffered such a loss in the manner he did. Bottom line with Storm, no marriage, no royal lineage, no power couple and the loss of such great potential. Yea Tchalla lost something special despite how Ororo is being depicted in the Xmen.

These characters don't write themselves, which is why I try to seperate in story logic from the often unknown motivations of the writer.

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They've always been close the only difference now is that it's being played up more then just getting a quick mention and then moved away from

Reed was inconsequential during Tchalla receiving the mantle of King of the Dead. Their commonality always lied in science not spiritual matters of which Reed is in a deficit.

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He wouldn't be in their debt, back in the tail end of the first issue he makes a point in his narration box to mention that by bringing together this group he walked away from that he has damned himself no matter what

And that is why T'Challa shined here and Hickman is deserving of the praise he's been getting no matter how much some fans want to throw hissy fits and complain

So Tchalla and the Golden City are not indebted to the Illuminati for saving the latter. From the battles scenes I've seen I'm not sure how much more superior fire power they brought. We agree Tchalla does shine in New Avengers. I haven't been privy to some fans throwing hissy fits and complaining about Hickman's BP.

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Which is what T'Challa was written as knowing and why he kept Namor being there a secret, the Doras in the second issue even mention they fear how Shuri and the people of Wakanda would react if they found out Namor was there and with this issue we found out, that type of lazy writing my fly over in the x-world but outside of that the creative team involved tend to hope that their fans are more receptive to great storytelling then half assedness
Again we agree on how Hickman handled the Wakandans ( Shuri, The Dora Milaje and the Hatut Zeraze) response to Tchalla haboring Namor.

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Then that would have altered things as Thanos wouldn't have come to Wakanda and gotten hold of the bombs, Namor is one guy who's writting checks that his ass soon won't be able to cash anymore

Indeed it would have altered things entirely. It may haved spared the Golden City and Tchalla would not have lost respect.

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And who ever said they were to be there permanently as the Illuminati have been basically jumping from trouble spot to trouble spot with a rare break few and between, there's also the fact that someone might ask who is that they're bringing in when again the goal is secrecy

I never said they would be there permanently. It just a massive powder keg with the anti-matter bombs, Terax, Thanos and Proxima waiting for Black Swan to lite the fuse. I favor the idea of Tchalla having to engage in such a situation.

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This is mainly about T'Challa any and all full things Wakandan would need to be handled in a solo series which this is not. New Avengers isn't a T'Challa solo title, wanting all of that in a title called New Avengers is a wasted effort. In fact Hickman and company don't even have to write T'Challa as well as they have been doing let alone the linchpin of this comic

My comments are mindful and more directed towards a Black Panther solo series.

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With that said I don't know why you're nitpicking things you know given about the book, that's like me going on about how Mighty avengers hasn't built up Blue Marvel like it's his solo title

I am not nick picking Genki. I remember the first time I read Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Alan Moore's Watchmen and Neil Gaiman's Sandman; they were perfect reads to me. Masterful in every detail. I felt an almost overwhelming sense of comic book satiety. They set a standard for me. I desire to achieve that same level of satisfaction with the Black Panther.

No Genki it isn't nick picking. God is in the details. I think some writers read our comments and find value in them. That among other reasons is why I post critical insight. No Genki it isn't nick picking, its simply a request.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1150 on: November 28, 2013, 03:11:50 pm »
We've been following breadcrumbs to T'Challa's redemption for years!  How much longer?  While I agree that Hickman's story is well-written, it is supposed to be in the superhero genre.  I read different kinds of literature for different reasons and with different expectations.  I remain frustrated with the amount of action happening "off-panel" which for this genre I find off-putting, especially when the art is so stunningly rendered. 

At this point I'm not sure what assurance we can have that T'Challa will ever regain any of his former luster, any of the swagger that resonated so well with many of us?  He has incurred loss after loss after loss.......  Some of us decry MacGregor's lyrical iteration of a similarly challenged T'Challa which for it's time was actually quite groundbreaking.  I enjoyed JA T'Challa more than many here but don't relish the idea of revisiting him.  I enjoyed T'Challa's growth as a schemer and tactician, the guy who accounted for all the angles and never got caught with his pants down.  This reflects a level of competence for this Afrikan character that is important to me as an African-American.  Lately among the Illuminati he has seemed more like a third to Reed and Tony rather than a team leader.  Fourth even if you consider Black Bolt's importance and the revelation of his own designs.  Can we be sure with this shift to an Inhuman emphasis that T'Challa will even maintain a presence in the book?  If so, will it be anything more than as the custodian of Necropolis?  If he remains in NA fine, but while I have no reason to believe another solo BP book is in Marvel's plans, the last thing I'd want to see is it penned by Hickman or any non Afrikan/African-American writer. 

I think we all reasonably expected some type of resolution to the T'Challa/Namor conflict within the confines of the Infinity storyline.  Who knows if it will ever come.  I for one am not content to continue collecting bread crumbs.  I pay to eat.  Hickman's story has not been a bad one, but I won't be buying the TPB.  This is not quite the superhero story I bargained for.

My two cents.

Peace & Happy Thanksgiving,

Mont       

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1151 on: November 28, 2013, 04:43:40 pm »
As I was writing a response to Kip, Arthur and Moose I saw your post Kimoyo. Your post was well written and heart felt. Strong and inarguable. I co-sign with complete confidence. New Avengers is a good comic but what I want is a great Black Panther character for the ages expressed in comics, animation, film and merchandising.

I too was first introduced to the Black Panther by way of McGregor through the pages of Jungle Action. When I matured enough to understand what he was writing I thought it was sheer poetry. McGregor's Panther had something for that time ('70s). It was Priest whom I thought gave us a timeless Black Panther. He and Hudlin ushered in the cultural nuances that possibly only an Afrakan (so called Black) would find the necessity to do.

While Hickman is on the short list for writers for what may develop into a BP solo he still lacks the historical and in-story cultural reference points needed for the Black Panther. This is why I think your point about an Afrakan (Afrikan/African-American) writer is valid. I will not neglect to mention the possibility of said Afrikan/African-American writer also being incapable of the necessary historical and in-story cultural reference points.

This why the writer must be well researched in Afrakan culture that remains largely intact and reflecting little to no European, Arab, Asian, etc... cultural influences (For those who would seek to challenge this, use the converse of this statement and bare witness to how Europeans, Arabs and Asians maintain their cultural integrity). This should be combined with serious study in sovereign Afrakan communities that have existed even during nadir of Afrakan history.

Again very solid post Kimoyo.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1152 on: November 28, 2013, 05:10:53 pm »
Thank you brother Ture!

"The bolden part of your statement supports my argument. If he is to be seen as both winner and loser, the loses have often had the greater impact. I didn't just bring up Doomwar, I brought examples of his loses. The Kingpin was a credible victory as was the Red Skull. As far as Doom is concerned Hyperstorm,Tiger Wylde, Terrax and Kristoff Vernard have gotten some work in. If the  Punisher, Cloak and Dagger and Luke Cage can score one in the win column... the point being Tchalla should have never suffered such a loss in the manner he did. Bottom line with Storm, no marriage, no royal lineage, no power couple and the loss of such great potential. Yea Tchalla lost something special despite how Ororo is being depicted in the Xmen."

No doubt we are on the same page my friend!

"I am not nick picking Genki. I remember the first time I read Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Alan Moore's Watchmen and Neil Gaiman's Sandman; they were perfect reads to me. Masterful in every detail. I felt an almost overwhelming sense of comic book satiety. They set a standard for me. I desire to achieve that same level of satisfaction with the Black Panther."

Priest's "Enemy of the State" thru the wonderful "Sturm und Drang" did this for me and Reg has been the only one since to uphold the standard.  Hickman has flirted, even in an ensemble venture, but has not brought home the A list competency and command that we seek, that you allude to above.  Can he do it, perhaps?  It is the inclination I have to wonder about?

Peace,

Mont 


Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1153 on: November 28, 2013, 07:06:29 pm »
As I was writing a response to Kip, Arthur and Moose I saw your post Kimoyo. Your post was well written and heart felt. Strong and inarguable. I co-sign with complete confidence. New Avengers is a good comic but what I want is a great Black Panther character for the ages expressed in comics, animation, film and merchandising.

I too was first introduced to the Black Panther by way of McGregor through the pages of Jungle Action. When I matured enough to understand what he was writing I thought it was sheer poetry. McGregor's Panther had something for that time ('70s). It was Priest whom I thought gave us a timeless Black Panther. He and Hudlin ushered in the cultural nuances that possibly only an Afrakan (so called Black) would find the necessity to do.

While Hickman is on the short list for writers for what may develop into a BP solo he still lacks the historical and in-story cultural reference points needed for the Black Panther. This is why I think your point about an Afrakan (Afrikan/African-American) writer is valid. I will not neglect to mention the possibility of said Afrikan/African-American writer also being incapable of the necessary historical and in-story cultural reference points.

This why the writer must be well researched in Afrakan culture that remains largely intact and reflecting little to no European, Arab, Asian, etc... cultural influences (For those who would seek to challenge this, use the converse of this statement and bare witness to how Europeans, Arabs and Asians maintain their cultural integrity). This should be combined with serious study in sovereign Afrakan communities that have existed even during nadir of Afrakan history.

Again very solid post Kimoyo.

While I definitely can see the merit in what you are saying,  I do believe it was Stan Lee who said something like  that is one of the reasons they use fictional nations is so they don't have to get cultural/history/etc. right..   He didn't say this but with Wakanda, they could always say,  "while that might be true for the rest of Africa,  that isn't true in Wakanda. " 

Yeah,  it is the easy way out,  but that is one of the reasons for using fictional nations; you don't have to research to get it right.  I doubt that will ever change.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 07:55:44 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1154 on: November 28, 2013, 08:11:54 pm »
I think Ture brings up an interesting point, what does Namor bring to the table now?  BP spared Namor's life because as King of Atlantis and holder of an infinity gem, he brought something to the table.  Now, he has neither Atlantis nor the Gem; so what does he bring to the table.  BP could seek vengeance now; and they could replace Namor with Thor who would bring much more to the table in terms of power and resources.

Another thing that has got my interest going on this storyline is Shuri's reasoning.  It bothers me that she would invade Atlantis when Namor wasn't there.  Why would she do that?  Surely she knew that Namor would retaliate.  (True, she probably didn't think he could send something she couldn't handle.  There was no way for her to predict that he would trick Thanos into attacking Wakanda.)  But surely she knew he would retaliate.  Though, from her comments after fighting Black Dwarf, she does seem to think that everyone backs off if they get their hands slapped. 

Thats the thing Kip. I don't see what Namor ever brought to the table. He a great antogonist for Tchalla and an original member of the Illuminati but aside from raw power his skill set is lacking. I think Shuri is being depicted as seeing warfare one dimensionally. This is most certainly going to cost her in the future if she doesn't wise up.

While I definitely can see the merit in what you are saying,  I do believe it was Stan Lee who said something like  that is one of the reasons they use fictional nations is so they don't have to get cultural/history/etc. right..   He didn't say this but with Wakanda, they could always say,  "while that might be true for the rest of Africa,  that isn't true in Wakanda. " 

Yeah,  it is the easy way out,  but that is one of the reasons for using fictional nations; you don't have to research to get it right. 

True that, but that 's why I also reference in story culture as well. What would be the psychology and philosophy of an unconquered, noncolonized Afrakan nation that witnessed centuries of atrocities heaped upon their fellow Afrakans? What ideology and spiritual beliefs would they practice? What would be their idea of a celebration? Would the man have to get down on one knee and unveil a marquis cut diamond ring to propose marriage?

If the writer doesn't get  the "cultural/history/etc. right.." they do a disservice to the character as well as the reader. This could lead down the slippery slope of insulting caricatures and negative stereotypes. Authenticity is very much the hallmark of high quality good fiction.
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