Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closes: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS - New Black Panther, New Black Power, Ourstory!  (Read 634861 times)

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 08:40:52 am »
I have returned from the void.

Let all funny style/double-speak TROLL's be on notice.

For the record, every member of the Illuminati that went up against Terrax got their asses handed to them.

T'Challa was the only one who actually got to lay what would have been a mortal wound on anyone other than a cosmically imbued being so I'm not sure what the problem is here?

I agree with the general spirit of Ture's post for the most part, but find that some of the expectations being placed on him at this juncture are a bit over the top.

And as for the King of The Dead angle, let's just say that it provides an interesting divergence from what has actually gone before with T'Challa now being powered up to levels that should have been mainstays of his abilities right from the get go or at least, as a evolutionary character standpoint over a period of time.

It would be cool if Hickman is given the opportunity to first build T'Challa's character back up via the New Avengers title enough to gain the momentum required for a possible solo BP monthly in the future as opposed to just sitting back and picking holes in what he's done so far.

And as for Black Swan or (B-Swizzle as some on CBR have taken to calling her) let's just say that she's a much more intriguing character to me than Storm is as currently portrayed in the X-books so yeah, her profiling on the seat of Bast isn't a problem to me at all.

She tends to make anything she sits on look like a throne even when she's "locked" within an energy cell.

Ahhh, it's good to be back.


Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 12:46:26 pm »
For me, BmoreAkuma, it was just a simple case of everyone falling back and letting Blackbolt handle the business of defeating Terrax; because some members are familiar with Terrax, I would like to think that they would know how to best utilize their collective abilities against him.

On the solo tip I think Dr. Strange maybe able to succeed. He did after all stun Galactus by making him witness/feel all the deaths he has caused. Tchalla maybe able to succeed with prep time and the cosmic energy draining harness he used against Galactus' first herald.  The same maybe said of Reed and Tony and quite possibly Hank.

Welcome back Salustrade.

My wife pointed out that very fact and I agreed with it. No problem. I just would have preferred Tchalla leaping off Terrax's back instead of being swatted off. If Tchalla is as smart as we claim, he simply could have attacked Terrax from a distance.

I have very few expectations where the Black Panther is concerned and thus leesen the opportunity for disappointment. I am however interested in nuance and details and I think Hickman is too. He has done a good enough job so far that I am intersted in what follows.

"
Quote
And as for the King of The Dead angle, let's just say that it provides an interesting divergence from what has actually gone before with T'Challa now being powered up to levels that should have been mainstays of his abilities right from the get go or at least, as a evolutionary character standpoint over a period of time.

I agree and await demonstration of these power ups.

I think Hickman has been given the opportunity to build up the Black Panther and is doing a credible job thus far. His story telling is like reading a science fantasy novel featuring  my favorite superhero.

As for Black Swan, again Hickman is developing her into an intriguing character. If Black Swan were Afrakan (with aesthetics and heritage earmarking such) I would have some interest in them as a romantic couple. I just don't want Black Panther to go all House of Lies.

As for Black Swan profiling on the throne of Bast; Black Panther should have demonstrated that collar he gave her had an obedience setting (think Star Trek TOS episode Gamester of Triskelion) and had her presumptuous ass wipe her spittle off the floor. Again not a problem... just having some fun. ;D ;D ;D

I despise what has been done to the marriage of Tchalla and Ororo and am greatly disappointed with Storm's current status. Hickman demonstrating what he could have done with a Black Panther and Storm pairing would have been interesting. Maybe someday in the near future he may get the chance.

I also think I would appreciate Hickman creating a new Dora Milaje for Tchalla; with the same attention to detail that has been given to Black Swan she could be a hit.  She could be both insular to the greater Marvel U and unencumbered by its continuity.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 02:30:41 pm »
So basically "they didnt use enough of their mind" to take this guy down. If it wasnt for BP Iron Man would've been cut in half. What more do you want? I get it if BP for some reason had some type of a back up prep time gadget sitting around then it is all good.


I have no problem with Black Bolt being the Powerhouse component of the team, but this is supposed to be a badass team of capable individuals not to be trifled with.  While Terrax is a powerful entity and a credible enemy he is not someone that anyone of these Avengers couldn't conceivably figure out how to handle alone.  The scenario presented did not appropriately represent the abilities of this team.

Peace,

Mont
They are a "badass team of capable individuals" for earthlings. This is a herald of galactus.  You cannot convince me that any other minus Black Bolt can handle him alone. I would call BS for anyone of them all.

Doctor Doom handled a Herald and The Beyonder from Secret Wars himself. Doctor Doom stole Galactus' power.

Every single person in The Illuminati can handle Doctor Doom...

...and for the record? I really and truly believe that Namor's intelligence is sharply underwritten. We don't seen his IQ in action in practically any incarnation, and we only get rare glimpes of what should be a steady diet of genius with Hank.

Both Thor and Hercules would've acquired literally immortal battle genius over their millenia of battling immortal opposition. Their wisdom and battle acumen are hugely underplayed. I would write them as true immortals.

In short? The Illuminati is all that and then some. I agree with Kimoyo.
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Offline sinjection1

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2013, 04:19:09 pm »
And Doom is very much overdo for a beatdown, but I don't see Hickman letting Doom getting merked by TChalla.

Unless it's a Doombot, I concur with you Dear Brother. Hickman is an employee of Marvel Comics and as such, answerable to the preferences of the LCB-RD. Historically, this demographic has proven to be largely indifferent to the Panther while Dr. Doom is a perennial favorite. I seem to recall reading a few sour LCB-RD-written posts expressing disdain for the Hudlin-written results of the first meeting/fight between Captain America and T'Chaka. They weren't happy campers. Money talks and in this case, money = LCB-RD preference. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say LCB-RD favor would be thus: Doom > Black Panther; Namor > Black Panther.....Power Pack > Black Panther.

Quote
Maybe a good smacking after they all jointly halt the Incursion. I am actually very much looking forward to this issue, because I can see how the scheming TChalla may forego laying a finger on Doom because TChalla's needs--saving the planet and this universe--vastly outweigh his wants--putting Doom in a box for his incursion on Wakanda.

Again - aside from scant information gleaned through previews of the book and chit chat in internet forums, I am completely ignorant of the New Avengers story. I have neither purchased nor read a comicbook in years. IMHO however, this T'Challa "King of the Dead" reminds me of the old Transformers story of Optimus Prime's return from the dead.

All existence was threatened by a malevolence which dwarfed that of the Decepticons. Indeed, if I remember correctly, the Autobots and Decepticons  combined forces to combat the menace. To defeat said menace, Optimus Prime had to exhaust the near-infinte resources of the Matrix, taking unto himself all the knowledge of every leader of the Autobots. This enabled the Autobot/Decepticon forces to overcome the menace. Victorious, Galvatron (formerly Megatron -not Calvin Johnson), expressed his respect - if not friendship - for Optimus Prime, leaving in peace to fight again another day. I surely hope the New Avengers story won't end with T'Challa being satisfied with saving the earth and in gratitude, sending Doom and Namor off to live their lives with nothing more than a snarl and stern warning not to cross him again...or else



Quote
Even though TChalla already humbled Doom in front of the whole world with a flick of the switch. Everybody forgets that about Doomwar. TChalla clowned Doom in the end with a flick of a switch. That's...embarrassing. Not anywhere near as satisfying a much deserved, much needed to give TChalla his props, thorough beatdown and comprehensive humbling of Doom FOLLOWED BY a flick of the switch neutralizing all of Doom's advances across the world.

In retrospect, it seems to me that Maberry's intent might have been to elevate Shuri as Black Panther while not necessarily emasculating T'Challa in the process. But I can't get past the fact that T'Challa spent most of Doomwar in a cave while females carried the battle to Doom. I can't get past the fact that when T'Challa finally met Doom on the field of battle, he essentially complemented him - telling him that he was one of the greatest minds on the planet and a benevolent leader of his people before detailing the egregious offenses he committed against the Wakandan people including the murder of his uncle not to mention the torment he inflicted on his Mother and wife. He then asked Doom to "stand down" in the "name of peace and sanity". This is how the LCB-RD likes the Black Panther. They don't want him "arrogant" and "confident" as he is currently being written. They enjoy seeing him get in exactly 2 punches on Doom before being beaten down physically.

Yes, T'Challa thwarted Doom's plans but not before receiving a lecture on the hubris of the Black Panther and Wakanda where their Vibranium was concerned. After conceding that Doom was correct about himself and Wakanda, it was then T'Challa flicked the switch - stopping Doom, but destroying Wakanda's chief asset and throwing his nation into and even more chaotic situation.

As a Black Panther fan, I would rather have seen Doom savagely attacked and seriously maimed by a righteously-vengeful T'Challa. Now, I understand Namor flooded Wakanda recently, killing untold thousands. When Phoenix-possessed Jean Grey destroyed a planet, she had to pay with her life. Wakanda isn't a planet, but Phoenix-possessed Namor killed thousands of African people whose champion is a character much of the LCB-RD regards with indifference.

I don't see Namor getting off any worse than did Doom, I'm afraid to say.
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Offline sinjection1

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2013, 05:23:38 pm »
Welcome back Salustrade.

Seconded!

Quote
My wife pointed out that very fact and I agreed with it. No problem. I just would have preferred Tchalla leaping off Terrax's back instead of being swatted off. If Tchalla is as smart as we claim, he simply could have attacked Terrax from a distance.

From what I've gathered, Terrax - a herald of Galactus - put a serious whupping on this powerful team of superheroes. T'Challa's attack was of its usual, stealthy, cat-like character, but ineffectual against Terrax. Something to be expected, perhaps...but I seem to remember Spider-Man taking down Firelord - another herald of Galactus - by himself. No Avengers. No Black Bolt. Spider-Man went toe-to-toe against Firelord and won.

T'Challa has the ability to cloak his presence and has been imbued with the knowledge and strength of every Black Panther who has existed before Shuri and himself. Roy Thomas' version of the Black Panther might have executed the same tactic against a being like Terrax. The only possible difference is that Thomas' Panther might not have had the physical strength to embed the blade into Terrax' back.

If Spider-Man could take down Firelord, I certainly hope T'Challa is able to present a stern test to Namor at least. Like you Brother Ture, I hope these "power ups" evidence something more than Maberry's "enhancements". If these "super abilities" are to be of any character-upgrade significance, T'Challa has to be able to do more than kick down massive steel reinforced security doors and survive being swatted away by a herald of Galactus.
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Offline Moose100

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2013, 06:26:54 pm »
I love the New Avengers Title. If it wasn't for Hickman leading the charge. I would of charged Marvel to the game.

The only thing I want to point out is that Hickman was handed a compromised Panther by the likes of Maberry taking that title away from him. Hickman probably saw this as an opportunity to augment the character in a n organic and forward way.

HIckman tells his story nice and slow. All of what he has written isn't really getting into the emat of his story yet. We are still more or less in a prelude phase.

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2013, 06:32:18 pm »


I guess squirrel girl should be able to handle the Illuminati.
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2013, 09:45:30 pm »
For the record, every member of the Illuminati that went up against Terrax got their asses handed to them.

T'Challa was the only one who actually got to lay what would have been a mortal wound on anyone other than a cosmically imbued being so I'm not sure what the problem is here?

I agree with the general spirit of Ture's post for the most part, but find that some of the expectations being placed on him at this juncture are a bit over the top.

Simply put, T'Challa's tactical and physical abilities should make him very difficult to swat especially when he is fresh and rested or unimpaired.  I agree that what was portrayed was a recap of the battle but that fact in itself was somewhat disappointing after the tease from the last ish.  I see no reason why the recap couldn't have shown T'Challa avoiding Terrax's swat, deftly setting him up for Black Bolt.  BB gets the bucket but BP gets the assist.  This would have been reasonable, logical and a welcome departure from an old unflattering stereotype.

For whoever calls BS on T'Challa taking down Terrax on his own, I seem to recall a clever brother laying out a scientific explanation for a pre-King of the Dead T'Challa knocking out Mephisto with one punch.  With a little imagination Batman can take out Superman and the whole Justice League but BP couldn't possibly take out Terrax!?!  BS right back at ya!

Peace,

Mont

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2013, 10:28:35 pm »
Don't get it twisted Bmoreakuma. I have no respect for jobbing out superheroes. The embarrassment Doom suffered under Squirrel girl attack was insultingly ridiculous, it even lacked levity. The same goes for Luke Cage beating Doom. It was the height of insult to witness Batman kicking the Hulk in the solar plexus thus making him inhale knock out gas. Storm troopers being beaten by teddybears, I mean Ewoks! I could go on ad nauseum.

In agreement with you Moose100.

And for you brother Sinjection 1 I present a preview of the issue under discussion:

http://pulllist.comixology.com/previews/feb130505/0/


Now witness the Black Panther's rebirth as the King of the Dead.





In addition here are the covers to the first issue





and finally of things to come.







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Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 01:56:21 am »
For the record, every member of the Illuminati that went up against Terrax got their asses handed to them.

T'Challa was the only one who actually got to lay what would have been a mortal wound on anyone other than a cosmically imbued being so I'm not sure what the problem is here?

I agree with the general spirit of Ture's post for the most part, but find that some of the expectations being placed on him at this juncture are a bit over the top.

Simply put, T'Challa's tactical and physical abilities should make him very difficult to swat especially when he is fresh and rested or unimpaired.  I agree that what was portrayed was a recap of the battle but that fact in itself was somewhat disappointing after the tease from the last ish.  I see no reason why the recap couldn't have shown T'Challa avoiding Terrax's swat, deftly setting him up for Black Bolt.  BB gets the bucket but BP gets the assist.  This would have been reasonable, logical and a welcome departure from an old unflattering stereotype.

For whoever calls BS on T'Challa taking down Terrax on his own, I seem to recall a clever brother laying out a scientific explanation for a pre-King of the Dead T'Challa knocking out Mephisto with one punch.  With a little imagination Batman can take out Superman and the whole Justice League but BP couldn't possibly take out Terrax!?!  BS right back at ya!

Peace,

Mont
I guess you're cool with Deathstroke handling of the justice league too. He is a Batman rouge so yea totally. Just cause one thing happen it must happen for another no matter how bogus it is. So again Squirrel girl need to be apart of the Illuminati just cause she defeated Doctor Doom and other "major villians"


Don't get it twisted Bmoreakuma. I have no respect for jobbing out superheroes. The embarrassment Doom suffered under Squirrel girl attack was insultingly ridiculous, it even lacked levity. The same goes for Luke Cage beating Doom. It was the height of insult to witness Batman kicking the Hulk in the solar plexus thus making him inhale knock out gas. Storm troopers being beaten by teddybears, I mean Ewoks! I could go on ad nauseum.
That is pretty much where I was coming from. The utter ridiculousness of many of these "fighting encounters" is truly bogus and laughable. "well so and so defeated so and so, so he/she should defeat so and so".
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 05:21:49 am »
I am a confirmed Black Panther enthusiast with extensive knowledge of the character and his mythos.

Like most of you posting in this thread and the forum at large, I've followed T'Challa's ups and downs under different writers dating back to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's original launch of the character back in 1966 all the way through to Jonathan Hickman's current portrayal of T'Challa in New Avengers so all I'm going to say at this juncture is that heads need to excercise a lot more patience with Hickman than seems to be the case at present.

No one twisted Hickman's arm to get him to include T'Challa in his take on New Avengers or even go further to make the character and his ancient nation central to the group (unlike others who only remember to use Wakanda when they need a convenient nation to annihilate.) so yeah, I do take some of the criticism and mistrust Hickman is facing from some quarters with a pinch of salt.

Hickman has stated quite clearly, that he actually wanted to have T'Challa and Ororo still involved with each other leading on from David Liss's Black Panther: Most Dangerous Man Alive book but guess what, he was blocked by the X-office in much the same way that David Liss was blocked fro including Ororo in T'Challa's adventures so it's not as if he wasn't interested in writing them as a married couple.

The X-office wasn't having it, and after all of the anti-Wakanda events that occured during AvX and the continued subliminal disses in associated X-books featuring Storm, it becomes quite clear why the X-office refused to allow both Liss and Hickman to feature Ororo interacting favourably with her (then) husband.

So lets place the blame where it's most warranted thank you very much.

If Jonathan Hickman continues to develop T'Challa as he's currently doing in New Avengers, it's more than likely that a Black Panther monthly solo joint may once again become a viable proposition.

For right now, T'Challa is part of an ensemble cast and as such, he can't be expected to carry the day on his lonesome all the time.

I have no doubt that Hickman has some interesting times in store for T'Challa as the pace of action increases so lets sit back and observe as a master scripter brings T'Challa to the fore kicking crazy amounts of enemy ass.

Patience my friends, patience.





On another note, I'm really enjoying the interactions between T'Challa and Yabbat Ummon Tarru. (Black Swan)

I'm also enjoying this interaction for the fact that so many haters are whining about T'Challa and Black Swan teasing each other with some claiming that the likes of Strange, Doom and Namor would be more her style which kind of mirrors what was being said about Ororo, where most of these hating clowns felt Ororo would be better off with everyone from Doom to Dracula just because they couldn't stand the thought of her with T'Challa.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 07:57:23 am »
Not sure what the problem is.

Terrax is a Herald of Galactus. They are no joke.

The only person in the Illuminati that has anything for him physically is Black Bolt possibly Doc Strange.

The last time the Fantastic Four fought him they just called in the Silver Surfer to beat him up for them.

If those guys rush him as a group it goes down about the way it did.

Black Panther (and Reed for that matter) need prep to take on a Herald, without it he (and Reed) is a punching bag. The whole point of the FF is to take a beating while Reed build his anti whatever device. It's not like they ever beat Terrax outright.

If anybody Jobbed in that fight it was Sub Mariner and maybe Doc.

But even if they had done more they couldn't have stopped him.

Offline sinjection1

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 08:56:53 am »
Thank you brother Ture for the brilliant visual aids/bringing me further along in grasping the particulars of the current developments regarding the Black Panther...or is it simply T'Challa? As I recall, before stepping away from you my brothers and Dear Friends and this pasttime I once enjoyed, Shuri was the Black Panther. T'Challa was a cracked shell of himself who under self-imposed exile undertook a life-reevaluating course of action in which I suspicion, he accomplished nothing of any real consequence.

"King of the Dead", he is now. Ture, as I looked on the graphics you provided, my mind immediately returned to the very excellent title you gave this topic: New Avengers...okay. New Black Panther...maybe; maybe not. We'll see. New Black Power? And there it is! Since his creation, writers have tried to find and present the real essence of the Black Panther. As I indicated earlier, I'm inclined to believe that with the possible exception of Maberry who might have had greater interest in promoting Shuri as the new and viable Black Panther, every writer who tackled T'Challa, the Black Panther made a good faith attempt to portray a noble, regal, enigmatic, dynamic, formidable character. He was spoken of as being in the same class as Captain America.

This "King of the Dead" might have been accomplished years ago when in the story written by Peter Gillis, T'Challa was tested by the Panther God itself who was at that time, none too pleased with the Black Panther. The "King of the Dead" IMO is simply a different way of portraying the results of the Gillis story, a story in which T'Challa - bereft of the favor and power of the Panther God - defeated a team of super-powered white villians from the racist nation of Azania.

The Panther has always been a worthy character. The issue has always been this noble, regal, formidable black man bearing the name Black Panther has presented a symbol of black power in Marvel Comics and the comicbook industry as a whole and it is that reality which has worked to keep T'Challa a lesser character than we all know he deserves. Marvel Comics has demonstrated through its treatment of the Black Panther and most of the black male mutants it has created, that LCB-RD power trumps black power everytime.

In nature, a cheetah < a leopard < a lion < a tiger. In short, the most powerful tiger will always win out. In Marvel Comics, Daredevil < Luke Cage. Daredevil has no true super power. He does not have steel-like skin. Cage has both of those attributes Daredevil lacks, but I have a book in which Daredevil and Cage sparred and Daredevil was able to raise lumps and bruises on Cage and not only that...cause Cage to bleed. Cage has been gunshot point blank and those wounds produced no blood, at most, only an indentation where the impact occurred. Why was DD able to accomplish this? Because the writer wrote it so. Who's to complain about Cage being "jobbed"? Black folks don't buy comics in the numbers of the LCB-RD. This is why when given the "Marriage Of The Century", those fans of the marriage could not sustain it as much of the more demonstrative LCB-RD, many of those being x-fans, despised the marriage and wanted it ended.

Nobody is saying T'Challa should have beaten Terrax single-handedly...good lord, we're not saying that. Remember the LCB-RD outrage when the Panther was able to apply an arm-bar hold on the Silver Surfer. I'm saying that unless the LCB-RD attitude toward black characters is that they will actually support that character with their dollars, it doesn't matter how formidable T'Challa, the Black Panther becomes, he will always be lesser than Wolverine, lesser than Hawkeye, lesser than Irredeemable Ant Man; lesser than other characters which IMHO, he is superior to in every respect.
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Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 09:18:54 am »
Especially when many of these readers call him a "Marty Stu"
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline sinjection1

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2013, 09:40:24 am »
Especially when many of these readers call him a "Marty Stu"

A...who?
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.