Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710: THE PROTOCOLS - MOST DANGEROUS  (Read 1273997 times)

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2325 on: April 12, 2015, 06:02:14 am »
I don't like how he is writing Namor more.  Turning him into a genocidal maniac makes him being un-redeemable unless this time line is erased.   

But I can still enjoy the story,  depending on how it ends.

For BP, we disagree.  I don't see breaking down as weakness and I don't see him writing T'challa as second fiddle.  I just think that is what happens in team books.

Shuri...I less liked how he handed her.   But again,  I expect get to come back,  unless the new writers of BP don't want her.   

Wakanda... it 's destruction was inevitable.   Here is the thing about comics.   The second someone creates an absolute,  another writer will destroy it.   Kirby makes the Celestials the top dogs, Shooter undoes it twice (Korvacs then Beyonder. )  Hulk is strongest one of all,  until someone creates Red Hulk and says he's the strongest one of all and has him knock down the Watcher.  The Living Tribunal is the MOST POWERFUL BEING, and someone kills him.  Captain America's shield is unbreakable,  So multiple writers break it.   The minute Priest and Hudlin reminded everyone that Wakanda had never been conquered,  someone was going to write the story where they are conquered.  And like Cap's shield,  expect it to keep happening,  because Wakanda is now the measuring stick for how powerful the bad guy is.  Just wait, next time someone wants to show how dangerous Kang the Conqueror is, he's going to invade Wakanda and win.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 07:21:08 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2326 on: April 12, 2015, 08:11:08 am »
I don't like how he is writing Namor more.  Turning him into a genocidal maniac makes him being un-redeemable unless this time line is erased.   

But I can still enjoy the story,  depending on how it ends.

For BP, we disagree.  I don't see breaking down as weakness and I don't see him writing T'challa as second fiddle.  I just think that is what happens in team books.

Shuri...I less liked how he handed her.   But again,  I expect get to come back,  unless the new writers of BP don't want her.   

Wakanda... it 's destruction was inevitable.   Here is the thing about comics.   The second someone creates an absolute,  another writer will destroy it.   Kirby makes the Celestials the top dogs, Shooter undoes it twice (Korvacs then Beyonder. )  Hulk is strongest one of all,  until someone creates Red Hulk and says he's the strongest one of all and has him knock down the Watcher.  The Living Tribunal is the MOST POWERFUL BEING, and someone kills him.  Captain America's shield is unbreakable,  So multiple writers break it.   The minute Priest and Hudlin reminded everyone that Wakanda had never been conquered,  someone was going to write the story where they are conquered.  And like Cap's shield,  expect it to keep happening,  because Wakanda is now the measuring stick for how powerful the bad guy is.  Just wait, next time someone wants to show how dangerous Kang the Conqueror is, he's going to invade Wakanda and win.

And as I've said before, none of these protocols apply to characters like Doom and the rest of the chosen.

I'm sure the irony of a Priest/Hudlin (two Black men) Wakanda written properly being destroyed by Maberry/Hudlin (two White men) hasn't escaped you.

At the end of the day, it is what it is.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2327 on: April 12, 2015, 08:39:19 am »
What do you mean it hadn't happened to characters like Doom?  Doom is always beaten and humbled. This isn't the first time Hickman gave Doom ultimate power.  Lat time he had ultimate power,  he still ended up falling and a toddler had to rescue him.    Not one of his schemes ever really worked.   And sometimes he fails in embarrassing ways.   Squirrel Girl beat him with squirrels!

Even this scheme is going to backfire or fail for Doom.  The best he can hope for us go out in a blaze of glory and then reset.

Hickman wrote Reed regularly being upstaged by a two year old, declaring she was already smarter than him.    Actually that two year regularly manipulates Doom like a marionette.

(And it looks like they plan to reboot her as a teenager because I guess they are realizing how stupid it is for a toddler to manipulate Reed and Doom.   But just watch,  a future writer will write her brain missing something important and making her fail big time. )

Cap has been played as a fool in this entire story.   Captain America is supposed to be the "god of winning."   Nobody is supposed to out think Cap.  And Reed plays him effortlessly.  Yeah,  Reed is the one guy who can do it,  But Cap comes off looking like a fool. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 08:47:47 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2328 on: April 12, 2015, 09:20:35 am »
What do you mean it hadn't happened to characters like Doom?  Doom is always beaten and humbled. This isn't the first time Hickman gave Doom ultimate power.  Lat time he had ultimate power,  he still ended up falling and a toddler had to rescue him.    Not one of his schemes ever really worked.   And sometimes he fails in embarrassing ways.   Squirrel Girl beat him with squirrels!

Even this scheme is going to backfire or fail for Doom.  The best he can hope for us go out in a blaze of glory and then reset.

Hickman wrote Reed regularly being upstaged by a two year old, declaring she was already smarter than him.    Actually that two year regularly manipulates Doom like a marionette.

(And it looks like they plan to reboot her as a teenager because I guess they are realizing how stupid it is for a toddler to manipulate Reed and Doom.   But just watch,  a future writer will write her brain missing something important and making her fail big time. )

Cap has been played as a fool in this entire story.   Captain America is supposed to be the "god of winning."   Nobody is supposed to out think Cap.  And Reed plays him effortlessly.  Yeah,  Reed is the one guy who can do it,  But Cap comes off looking like a fool.

You still don't get it do you? :smh:

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2329 on: April 12, 2015, 11:01:46 am »
Eh, Bendis (or the artist) having T'challa break his neck while falling is worse than anything Hickman does.   Not only does he reduce T'challa to the level of Canonfodder, but he had him fail in the most basic and know of his powers-agility.

The fact that Hickman has portrayed T'Challa as the tactical buffoon responsible for Wakanda's demise as well as cheerleader/backing singer to Reed Richards within New Avengers for close to three years now trumps whatever Bendis did in ONE issue of Age of Ultron.

Thanks for the laugh though.

Reed is the first hero of the modern Marvel Age.  (His family are basically his side kicks)  Correctly written,  he belongs to the mold of Doc Savage, not the absent minded professor.  He is the smartest man on earth, and that is not just limited to the sciences.

His tactical mind had been proven over and over again.   The FF is one of the weakest teams out there and they constantly defeat forces far beyond their power level and that is all because of Reed's scientific and tactical mind.

Second to Reed is not an insult.   Written correctly Reed is that good. 

When Hickman makes Reed second to a toddler, that is an insult.

The difference between me and you is that I would never seek to justify the dumbing down of one character to prop another which is why you'd be hard pressed to find any posts from me denigrating Reed Richards or his recognized attributes.

Unfortunately, where T'Challa is concerned, there are many who see no problem downgrading his character or having play 2nd, 3rd or 8th fiddle behind everyone else despite the fact that when he was created in 1966 by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee he was launched as an intellectual on par with reed Richards and second to no one.

What is it about T'Challa as a character that has even some of his supposed fans so quick to cape for writers who take great pride in watering down his attributes?

I find it most puzzling.

Two reasons,  until the story is done we don't know what we are seeing yet.   Last page I read Namor shows up with BB as Reed's surprise.  What if all or some of what we have seen between BP and Namor was staging And nothing is real?  It may not be,  but until it is over it is still in play.

Two good story writing puts the heroes through hell  and didn't have then operating at their best asl the time.

Three,  I can seperate the parts I like from the parts I don't like and still enjoy the story.   i like stories of massive destruction.

Does anything you've typed here change the fact that Hickman has written T'Challa as a tactical failure across the freaking board?

No it doesn't but hey, if Hickman's take on T'Challa is what floats your boat, more power to you.

I on the otherhand, expect better and unlike some, see no reason to settle foer scraps from massa's table.


Almost the entire MCU is being obliterated. EVERYONE is tactically failing across the board. tThat was the premise that Hickman is working with. Many people are still resistant to this basic reality. Okay, that's their choice.

There are periodic wins of various skirmishes and battles for the heroes, but Pym made it clear. He saw the murder of The Living Tribunal. by a single Beyonder. It's now crystal clear to the heroes that there is no ifs ands or buts: the war is lost.

Now? The unthinkable choices of bare knuckle survival are forced upon the heroes.  The horrors that Black Swan said "crushes that which is decent within us".

This is the ultimate ultimate test of heroism.

It's pretty easy to be heroic when the given result is that you will "win". But. What happens when it becomes truly apparent even to heroes that they absolutely cannot win? Will they break? Will they cease being heroes? Will they become villains?

Do they have a truly heroic soul wherein they cannot be anything else, even in the worst of imaginable circumstances?

Even though I don't like how Hickman showed it with TChalla crying like a punk...he showed that even under the worst of circumstances. The worst of all possible imaginable circumstances. TChalla will make the heroic choice. He will try to find the heroic way.

Tony, however, will become The Superior Iron Man. Heroic still. But less so. A cross between Tony and von Doom.

Reed IS originally imagined as more Doc Savage than the absentminded professor. But. Imo TChalla is the undisputed uberprepbeast of the MU and the difference between himself and Reed are several and very major. I really think that...head to head, alone...Reed and T'Challa are on par with each other intellectually. But. TChalla has physical skills and abilities superior to Captain America. This gives a dimension and a advantage to TChalla that Reed can compute and challenge severely but cannot overcome. And. T'Challa has much stronger spiritual and cultural resources than does Reed. T'Challa imo also has a wealth of magic, ka, and psionic [ clairvoyance from the Kirby run, for example ] abilities that he keeps below the radar. Not flashy stuff, but definitely very effective and very difficult to defend against. More stealth, transport, knowledge gathering, manipulation, speed, etc. stuff. Not the throw magic bolts around stuff...although he can learn to do that, if he wants. More the..."I will deflect/negate/block/use against you all of your magic curses/possession powers/summoning/observation/scrying/eldritch/psionic disciplines and bolts" stuff.   

Also Imo T'Challa is also more ruthless than Reed, and this aggregate T'Challa is the T'Challa that I write in my fanfic.

With the link to his ancestors? It's a wrap. TChalla is many times smarter than Reed by himself is. Reed would have to be spiritually linked to The Council of Reeds to equal T'Challa's collective intelligence...and would still fail in the spiritual strength and warrior skill department.

Given the premise for Hickman's book? I would presume that we are looking at pure unassisted TChalla and Ultimate Reed and 616 Reed insofar as pinnacle unmitigated geniuses are concerned. The 8 months jump ahead I presume stripped TChalla [ shown on panel having the Spirits of TChaka and the other Panthers turn their backs on him for not destroying a planet ] and Reed [ he's not shown hobnobbing with The Celestials and/or The Watchers which he has done before in circumstances far less extreme than this one ] of any other inner resources than the inner resources that they have of their own.

True heroes. Beings truly dedicated to their cause. Will give everything they have even in circumstances that they absolutely cannot win slow stop reverse or halt. True heroes will continue to be heroic in the face of not only absolute knowledge that they will fail but also in the face of the reality that those who are NOT heroic or being LESS heroic are actually succeeding more at achieving their goals. The way that Samurai write they will in their haiku, for instance.

Has anyone wondered how Thanos will react to the near destruction of everything? And if Thanos will be in Secret Wars and Battleworld?

My favorite take on TCHALLA is the CJP+RH+MCDUFFIE take. I've repeatedly stated this. My position hasn't changed. I don't know what the favorite interpretations of others are.

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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2330 on: April 13, 2015, 03:42:32 pm »
Two reasons,  until the story is done we don't know what we are seeing yet.   Last page I read Namor shows up with BB as Reed's surprise.  What if all or some of what we have seen between BP and Namor was staging And nothing is real?  It may not be,  but until it is over it is still in play.

Two good story writing puts the heroes through hell  and didn't have then operating at their best asl the time.

Three, I can seperate the parts I like from the parts I don't like and still enjoy the story.   i like stories of massive destruction.


Excellent response.

See, I don't get this line of thinking ('the story's not done yet so we don't know what we've got') at all!?!  This is comics, not a television serial.  Words and pictures have been set out in print, published twice a month or more for three years at a cost of $3.99 per issue!  What more do you need to see!?!  If what's printed turns out to not be real do I get a refund for the books I bought before I got fed up with this non-sense?  This is all we've had for years!  Are we to keep waiting and hoping that despite not getting a product that we enjoy and feel good about on it's own merits Hickman the Omniscient will sum it all up with an issue that magically absolves all the dreck we've suffered through; that even supporters admittedly don't like or don't feel good about, rendering those issues sitting in our collections either null and void or miraculously relevant?  He already wrote what he thinks makes up for Wakanda being destroyed and that's by being King of the Dead, T'Challa get's to carry Wakanda with him wherever he goes.  Jokes on us, T'Challa's "upgrade" to K.O.T.D. means we got portable ghost Wakandans!?!  Someone can come along and wipe this all out and take everything back to where it was (ngh - not gonna happen) and it still would not wipe away this three year stain which culminated years of deconstruction before it. 

Consider this; God forbid over this period and prior to any Wakandan resurrection any one of us succumbs as did Dwayne McDuffie or one of our very own Hef'ers?  Undoubtedly a BP fan somewhere has passed on during Hickman's run.  What solace would it be then that what is being done is likely to be undone?  God forbid!

Peace,

Mont

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2331 on: April 13, 2015, 04:22:43 pm »
Basically I am enjoying what I have read. ..I like alternate reality,  mass destruction, etc.   Yes there are parts I don't like and hope will be erased.   But I like the execution of the story.

But how they end it could taint the whole story,  making me unwilling to read it again.

Civil War is like that.   On one level,  It is a good read,  On another level I despise it so I evetually got rid of it.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2332 on: April 13, 2015, 04:48:57 pm »
That is your right my friend!

I  have to wonder though....if we didn't have the movies and the Superhero TV shows would people be as patient with Hickman's long-winded universe-encompassing, hubristic disaster opus?

Peace,

Mont


Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2333 on: April 13, 2015, 06:56:43 pm »
I totally commend your passion Kimoyo.

First the rallying cry was the Black Panther needed more guest stars, this was followed by he needed a better power set. Later it was Tchalla needed to be more than tangentially involved in major events and cross overs. 

The Black Panther needs to have a big name writer. Tchalla is too perfect, he needs a flaw. The Black Panther is not relatable enough to a white male demographic. Then came the outcry that the Black Panther needs to be part of a the Avengers.

The Black Panther can't win. If he were to lay down and say walk on me, some fool would say roll over on your other side.

What the Black Panther needs is to be left alone by all those who fail to comprehend the complexity of his personality and nuances that uniquely define the character. If you can't commit to writing the Black Panther don't apply for the job.
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Offline JRCarter

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2334 on: April 13, 2015, 07:33:10 pm »
So, who's left to write him the right way?

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2335 on: April 13, 2015, 08:06:34 pm »
So, who's left to write him the right way?

Nobody will be given the chance to do that. No matter how gifted the writer...under the current circumstances with the current majority of consumers buying comics who are a mix of fanboys that are wholly apathetic, uninterested in and racially hostile to TChalla? TChalla will fail. The best chance TChalla, Ms Marvel, Black Widow, Doc Strange, Ant Man, Miles Morales, and a host of other new heroes like SILK have is that they are pitched at a new and growing fanbase that are eager to have them. And in an overall market that WELCOMES their presence, even if those heroes aren't their favorite by a mile. That  kind of multicultural more accepting and more inclusive of women fan base is actively recruited by Marvel Cinemas and the MCU.

Then and only then can outstanding writers like CJP, RH, etc get a real chance to write their book without interoffice hate and LCBRD racist hatin backlash.

Look. New Avengers lost sales when TChalla was the clear moral center and badass of the book. Hickman was writing his ass off with TChalla. TChalla laid the smack down on Black Swan. Nobody else did that. He ripped apart a guy. He was on Namor's butt. He was sexin up Storm. Etc etc. What happened? From what I understand, sales went through a slow but steady decline before stabilizing.

The book's overall sales went up...so I am told...when Reed became the center of the book. And then that dropped too as Hickman pissed off Reed's fans. But the drop isn't anywhere near as sharp as when TChalla was in the lead.

Hickman's multiverse killing universe changing opus will permanently change that. And all writers in all of the MU. All of them. Are ALREADY COMMITTED TO THIS CHANGE. Read Hickman's interview. THIS CHANGE IS PERMANENT. Books are ALREADY BEING MADE with THE PERMANENT BADASS TCHALLA AS BATMAN OF THE MU A EDITORIAL MANDATED AND CREATOR SUPPORTED REALITY. Again. Read Hickman's interview on CBR. Part 2.

In this environment? And ONLY in this environment. Will BP finally. Finally. Thrive.

Hell. We might even get CJP back for BP. Or. Some other amazing writer. Mark Millar said he wanted to give TChalla a go a while ago.

It would be far too much of a fangasm to get RH back. But. To say I'd love that is a humongous freakin understatement.

 Hope springs eternal.


 
I totally commend your passion Kimoyo.

First the rallying cry was the Black Panther needed more guest stars, this was followed by he needed a better power set. Later it was Tchalla needed to be more than tangentially involved in major events and cross overs. 

The Black Panther needs to have a big name writer. Tchalla is too perfect, he needs a flaw. The Black Panther is not relatable enough to a white male demographic. Then came the outcry that the Black Panther needs to be part of a the Avengers.

The Black Panther can't win. If he were to lay down and say walk on me, some fool would say roll over on your other side.

What the Black Panther needs is to be left alone by all those who fail to comprehend the complexity of his personality and nuances that uniquely define the character. If you can't commit to writing the Black Panther don't apply for the job.



Again. This hellacious long story isn't over. And again. Good writers are SUPPOSED TO take their characters through believable wringers that have their readership questioning if their favorite character will win, and if so...at what cost? Their should be real threat of real loss that really happens so that the character really has to come back and triumph that much more magnificently.

And there should be a real serious chance that the character may not come back at all.

That's what good writers do.

And you know what? Each of the characters have the most amazing and compelling reasons for doing the unthinkable things they are doing.

When Namor destroyed the other Earth? His reasons for doing so were spot on. He was RIGHT to denigrate the Illuminati for having the hubris, the arrogance, to place their self righteous morality above the importance of the lives of all things in existence. He WAS RIGHT to make that point.

He was simply wrong in his method.

However...what other choices were there, at that time? The horrid answer is....there were no other answers that the Illuminati found at that point.

Doctor Doom is not wrong in his aim. He IS WRONG in his methods. But. He could not find another choice to make. No other even remotely successful option remained. Same thing with Doctor Strange.

And Kip is 100% right. Wakanda's destruction was inevitable, the moment that she became impregnable. How many times has Asgard been the home of unrivaled power? And how many times have we seen her bright spires shattered and broken?

At one time, The High Evolutionary was considered to be smarter than Reed Richards. Look what happened to him.

First we had Hulk. Then Sentry. Red Hulk. Blue Marvel. Hyperion. Always an attempt to or a successful achievement of one-upping the power of the previous "best".

Yes, the "chosen" have also lost a lot. Sue Richards was killed. Johnny Storm was killed. Wolverine was killed. Prof X was killed many times. Magneto was killed several times over. Bruce Banner was killed. Storm even killed Hulk momentarily with her lightning. Thor has been killed repeatedly. Surfer died. Peter Parker died. Steve Rogers died. Matt Murdock. Bruce Wayne. Superman. Most of "The Chosen" in BOTH major comics publishers have died and/or suffered major losses many times. How many times has Wonder Woman lost her Amazons?

But again. That's what good writers DO. They really put their characters in real danger and really make their fanbase really react with real concern. Hickman has taken this ploy and ran it to never before seen heights of horror and reality with consequences previously unimagined for the MCU.

And yes. Everyone and any one is JUSTIFIED in calling it quits on BP now if they so wish. Yet in the same breath, there is no question that doing so is exactly equivalent to bailing out on a book because your favorite protagonist is being dragged through the wringer by the bad guys in the middle of the book. It's like going through "The War To End All Wars"...that was WWI...and bailing on the story of World War II because the Axis Powers keep winning back to back battles and smashing on the good guys.

You never find out that The Allies win in the end...at extremely severe, world changing cost...because you bailed on the story. And all of your arguments will literally be the opinions which you have the right to hold. And  your opinions will e permanently steeped in literal and willful ignorance of the entire story because you bailed.

It took thirty years for CJP to come along. It took a few more years after that for RH BP to come along.

I can wait three years so Hickman can reset the MCU with TChalla PERMANENTLY ENSCONCED AS THE BATMAN OF THE MCU. And setting things so that from now freakin on the CJP's, the RH's, the MCDUFFIE's of the future are welcomed with open arms and encouraged to take TChalla, Falcon [ remember that CJP's Falcon is BY FAR THE BEST FALCON ] Luke Cage [ RH's Luke Cage is the best Cage, hands down period ] and hosts of other amazing characters of color with untapped massive potential. Triathlon. Battlestar. Ororo. Photon. Blue Marvel. The new Power Man. Night Thrasher. Patriot. Ororo's daughter. Etc. etc.

But I won't have to wait three years. Neither will you. Know how I know? Because...

...I saw some advanced black and white artwork for the upcoming Civil War in Secret Wars. TChalla is leading the charge of heroes aligned with Captain America against the charging heroes aligned with Tony. Or at least if he's not leading? He's in the front. Maybe he's just FASTER than everyone else is or whatever it is.

And.

TChalla survives both Secret Wars AND Battleworld. That means that somehow he and Reed and Strange and Doom turn the tables or exploit something or whatever of the Beyonders.

And I can't help but think that Thanos and The Cabal are in this up to their necks.

You know what? We might actually have...TChalla vs Namor 2.

And the big throwdown?

TChalla vs Thanos. For vengeance for Shuri, the death of Wakanda, and for ensuring the safe stable return of and future fate of Wakanda. I wouldn't be one ounce surprised to find that TChalla somehow or other turns Rabum Alal against The Cabal or all the heroes turn on The Cabal and somehow beat them. With TChalla playing a major part.

As much of a BP fanboy that I am? I don't see him overpowering Thanos in any way. I see him playing Thanos. Outsmarting Thanos by exploiting the only real weakness that Thanos has [ if you're not Eternity, The Celestials, The Living Tribunal, The Beyonder, Galactus, etc ]...and that is? Turning Thanos on Thanos.

I shouldn't say this but...in my fanfic? TChalla channels the Celestial Madonna combined with Moondragon combined with The Panther Dragon combined with Adam Warlock to halt a universe devouring threat. In my mind, that's the only kind of surprise that TChalla could have...power wise...that could catch a threat like Thanos unprepared.  It's too much to hope...by far...that Hickman even remotely considered something megacool like that for BP in his book.

However, all that is fair game for BP's new writers in the new MCU. They will write the very best combo of BP in all his incarnations plus whatever their imaginations conjure plus whatever the Marvel Cinemas conjure in a BP Witch's Brew post Battleworld and from thence on.

When I asked my secret informer about this? He was stone silent. The only other time he was stone silent? Was when I asked him about New Avengers being a horror story. As this very thread shows, some months ago I began to suspect that we were reading a super cosmic horror morality play splashed with universe spanning and multiverse killing action. That was the only other time he was stone silent.

I was right the last time he was stone silent.

We'll see if I'm right about any part of what I suspect now in the future.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 08:23:13 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2336 on: April 14, 2015, 03:43:20 pm »
The level of delusion that it takes to still be praising Hickman after all of the crap he's pulled with the BP mythos is thankfully, something I'll never be able to comprehend.


Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2337 on: April 14, 2015, 04:46:39 pm »
And Kip is 100% right. Wakanda's destruction was inevitable, the moment that she became impregnable. How many times has Asgard been the home of unrivaled power? And how many times have we seen her bright spires shattered and broken?

But again. That's what good writers DO. They really put their characters in real danger and really make their fanbase really react with real concern. Hickman has taken this ploy and ran it to never before seen heights of horror and reality with consequences previously unimagined for the MCU.

And yes. Everyone and any one is JUSTIFIED in calling it quits on BP now if they so wish. Yet in the same breath, there is no question that doing so is exactly equivalent to bailing out on a book because your favorite protagonist is being dragged through the wringer by the bad guys in the middle of the book. It's like going through "The War To End All Wars"...that was WWI...and bailing on the story of World War II because the Axis Powers keep winning back to back battles and smashing on the good guys.

You never find out that The Allies win in the end...at extremely severe, world changing cost...because you bailed on the story. And all of your arguments will literally be the opinions which you have the right to hold. And  your opinions will e permanently steeped in literal and willful ignorance of the entire story because you bailed.

Another really unfortunate analogy.
"Kip is 100% right"?  Wrong!  The idea that the destruction of Wakanda was inevitable is not an explanation, its a justification.  I'm sure we've all seen that people can find a way to justify whatever they like.  However, that justification may as well have been industry sponsored by the letters "F" and "U" because through the rather common gift of hindsight it justifies a "F"uture "U"niverse which just shed itself of a significant percentage of the character diversity which was "implanted" by its creators back in the 1960's.  "Implanted" yes, Vic was not right either in saying Shuri did not have a right to persist because of being recently implanted.  This medium has sorely lacked diversity and characters of color with weight and gravitas and folks here on the Hef are justifying the reduction of diversity!   
 
It took thirty years for CJP to come along. It took a few more years after that for RH BP to come along.

I can wait three years so Hickman can reset the MCU with TChalla PERMANENTLY ENSCONCED AS THE BATMAN OF THE MCU. And setting things so that from now freakin on the CJP's, the RH's, the MCDUFFIE's of the future are welcomed with open arms and encouraged to take TChalla, Falcon [ remember that CJP's Falcon is BY FAR THE BEST FALCON ] Luke Cage [ RH's Luke Cage is the best Cage, hands down period ] and hosts of other amazing characters of color with untapped massive potential. Triathlon. Battlestar. Ororo. Photon. Blue Marvel. The new Power Man. Night Thrasher. Patriot. Ororo's daughter. Etc. etc.

But I won't have to wait three years. Neither will you. Know how I know? Because...

...I saw some advanced black and white artwork for the upcoming Civil War in Secret Wars. TChalla is leading the charge of heroes aligned with Captain America against the charging heroes aligned with Tony. Or at least if he's not leading? He's in the front. Maybe he's just FASTER than everyone else is or whatever it is.

And.

TChalla survives both Secret Wars AND Battleworld. That means that somehow he and Reed and Strange and Doom turn the tables or exploit something or whatever of the Beyonders.

When I asked my secret informer about this? He was stone silent. The only other time he was stone silent? Was when I asked him about New Avengers being a horror story. As this very thread shows, some months ago I began to suspect that we were reading a super cosmic horror morality play splashed with universe spanning and multiverse killing action. That was the only other time he was stone silent.

I was right the last time he was stone silent.

We'll see if I'm right about any part of what I suspect now in the future.

So S.I. you are not as in the dark as the rest of us, as expected.  I welcome a restored T'Challa.  I've been waiting for him for several years now.  But while you are busy counting as yet unrealized chickens, I am simply reflecting on the horrific mangled remains of actual hatchlings.

Peace,

Mont
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 05:05:33 pm by Kimoyo »

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2338 on: April 14, 2015, 04:57:03 pm »
And Kip is 100% right. Wakanda's destruction was inevitable, the moment that she became impregnable. How many times has Asgard been the home of unrivaled power? And how many times have we seen her bright spires shattered and broken?

But again. That's what good writers DO. They really put their characters in real danger and really make their fanbase really react with real concern. Hickman has taken this ploy and ran it to never before seen heights of horror and reality with consequences previously unimagined for the MCU.

And yes. Everyone and any one is JUSTIFIED in calling it quits on BP now if they so wish. Yet in the same breath, there is no question that doing so is exactly equivalent to bailing out on a book because your favorite protagonist is being dragged through the wringer by the bad guys in the middle of the book. It's like going through "The War To End All Wars"...that was WWI...and bailing on the story of World War II because the Axis Powers keep winning back to back battles and smashing on the good guys.

You never find out that The Allies win in the end...at extremely severe, world changing cost...because you bailed on the story. And all of your arguments will literally be the opinions which you have the right to hold. And  your opinions will e permanently steeped in literal and willful ignorance of the entire story because you bailed.


Another really unfortunate analogy.
"Kip is 100% right"?  Wrong!  The idea that the destruction of Wakanda was inevitable is not an explanation, its a justification.  I'm sure we've all seen that people can find a way to justify whatever they like.  However, that justification may as well have been industry sponsored by the letters "F" and "U" because through the rather common gift of hindsight it justifies a "F"uture "U"niverse which just shed itself of a significant percentage of the character diversity which was "implanted" by its creators back in the 1960's.  "Implanted" yes, Vic was not right either in saying Shuri did not have a right to persist because of being recently implanted.  This medium has sorely lacked diversity and characters of color with weight and gravitas and folks here on the Hef are justifying the reduction of diversity!   
 
It took thirty years for CJP to come along. It took a few more years after that for RH BP to come along.

I can wait three years so Hickman can reset the MCU with TChalla PERMANENTLY ENSCONCED AS THE BATMAN OF THE MCU. And setting things so that from now freakin on the CJP's, the RH's, the MCDUFFIE's of the future are welcomed with open arms and encouraged to take TChalla, Falcon [ remember that CJP's Falcon is BY FAR THE BEST FALCON ] Luke Cage [ RH's Luke Cage is the best Cage, hands down period ] and hosts of other amazing characters of color with untapped massive potential. Triathlon. Battlestar. Ororo. Photon. Blue Marvel. The new Power Man. Night Thrasher. Patriot. Ororo's daughter. Etc. etc.

But I won't have to wait three years. Neither will you. Know how I know? Because...

...I saw some advanced black and white artwork for the upcoming Civil War in Secret Wars. TChalla is leading the charge of heroes aligned with Captain America against the charging heroes aligned with Tony. Or at least if he's not leading? He's in the front. Maybe he's just FASTER than everyone else is or whatever it is.

And.

TChalla survives both Secret Wars AND Battleworld. That means that somehow he and Reed and Strange and Doom turn the tables or exploit something or whatever of the Beyonders.

When I asked my secret informer about this? He was stone silent. The only other time he was stone silent? Was when I asked him about New Avengers being a horror story. As this very thread shows, some months ago I began to suspect that we were reading a super cosmic horror morality play splashed with universe spanning and multiverse killing action. That was the only other time he was stone silent.

I was right the last time he was stone silent.

We'll see if I'm right about any part of what I suspect now in the future.


So S.I. you are not as in the dark as the rest of us, as expected.  I welcome a restored T'Challa.  I've been waiting for him for several years now.  But while you are busy counting as yet realized chickens, I am simply reflecting on the horrific mangled remains of actual hatchlings.

Peace,

Mont


Well said brotha Kimoyo.


Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2339 on: April 14, 2015, 05:39:19 pm »
Another really unfortunate analogy.
"Kip is 100% right"?  Wrong!  The idea that the destruction of Wakanda was inevitable is not an explanation, its a justification. 


Actually it isn't either an explaination or justification.   It is merely a statement about modern comic book writing.   Many modern comic book writers feel a need to put their mark on their books because everyone wants to write the next "Death of Phoenix" story.  One way they do that is by breaking the unbreakable.   It isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing.   It is just the reality of situation.   Just wait,  someone will come along an undue everything Hickman is trying to create.  Then someone will undo that.  And so on.

If we want to read comics,  this is what we have to put up with, because it isn't going away.  (It is a big reason so many people are leaving comics. )
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 06:34:45 pm by KIP LEWIS »