BP710: THE PROTOCOLS 2020 - AVENGE THE FALLEN

[KIP LEWIS]

Aw, Francisco, you have no idea the hornet's nest you've just stirred.

Just telling it like it is. T'Challa should've never been replaced as the Black Panther. He doesn't need siblings. The only one who worked well for the mythos was the White Wolf due the dynamic of their relationship.

This is the only thing that will keep Shuri from returning after this story.  From the last I heard, Hickman is not writing for Marvel after Secret Wars is over.  Which means, what happens to BP and his personal world might be decided by whoever is going to write BP next.  If the new writer wants a clean slate, or is like Francisco and doesn't like Shuri, then her death along with the rest might not be undone.   Or she could return but in a different form.

OF course, this assumes there is even a new writer chosen to take BP at this point.  Hickman might leave a lot of things in Limbo, because he has no idea what Marvel plans to do with BP next.  He might even have been told to clear the board, so BP can start all over to match the movies.

[Ture]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Just telling it like it is. T'Challa should've never been replaced as the Black Panther. He doesn't need siblings. The only one who worked well for the mythos was the White Wolf due the dynamic of their relationship.

I wasn't into major characters being replaced by subordinates. Batman/ Azrael, Spider-man/ Scarlet Spider, Captain America/ USAgent and Superman and the faux four that stood in for him during his "death". I'm not even into Miles Morales' Spider-man, Sam Wilson's Cap or David Zavimb's Batwing.

Even Rhodey's stint as Iron Man during Tony's battle with alcoholism didn't work for me. Organically however Rhodey made some sense.  He was in the pages of Iron Man comics long enough to develop his own voice and long enough in story context to become familiar with Stark Tech. That's how Rhodey came into his own as War Machine.

Just like Rhodey, Shuri was retconned. She was evolving as a character and had her own voice. I thought her evolutionary path as a character with her own identity lied as president and CEO of Wakandan Design Group rather than as queen of Wakanda. From there she could have worn her high tech panther armor and called herself Wildcat. She could have had a secret identity and became Central Wakanda's (the Golden City) first official, traditional, friendly neighbor hood super heroine.

Wildcat and War Machine could have hooked up for business, high tech adventure and romance.



The comic world would have went crazy. First he Black Panther and Storm, then  Shuri and Rhodey. What's next? I'll tell you... the Falcon and Misty Knight.

Shuri makes more sense than Hunter the White Wolf origin wise. Priest's talent as a writer is what made characters like Hunter, Casper and even Ross work in the pages of Black Panther but his penchant to alleviate what he perceived as the discomfort of LCB or so called white readership proved unnecessary. He may have lost nothing making those characters Afrakan (so called black) and may have even gained something by showing the range of ethnic diversity within Afrakan people.

Hunter an Afrakan, orphaned because of his parents political influence and royal lineage in one of Wakanda's neighboring countries. Ross an Afrakan (so called African American)  top graduate from the finest HBCUs in the country, lawyer, US government liaison and card carrying member of the Boule. Casper an Afrakan (so called African American), light skinned but not bi-racial urban dweller representing the intelligence and consciousness of the Hip Hop generation.

Imagine the insightful and complex word play that could be written for these characters. Combine them with Queen Divine Justice, the Dora Milaje and Monica Lynne; W'kabi, Taku, Zuri and uncle S'Yan and witness a true supporting cast.

I think the discomfort some may have with Shuri arises from how she became queen in conjunction with how Tchalla brutally fell to Doom and supposedly lost the mantles of kingship and Black Panther. I f anyone, Storm should have become the Black Panther as she was already queen.

It was teased.


Also it would have been a given that Storm as the Black Panther for the Deadliest of the Species arc was most certainly temporary.

[Salustrade]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

And your mysogyny is an affront to all right thinking progressive people everywhere.

[supreme illuminati]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Just telling it like it is. T'Challa should've never been replaced as the Black Panther. He doesn't need siblings. The only one who worked well for the mythos was the White Wolf due the dynamic of their relationship.

I wasn't into major characters being replaced by subordinates. Batman/ Azrael, Spider-man/ Scarlet Spider, Captain America/ USAgent and Superman and the faux four that stood in for him during his "death". I'm not even into Miles Morales' Spider-man, Sam Wilson's Cap or David Zavimb's Batwing.

Even Rhodey's stint as Iron Man during Tony's battle with alcoholism didn't work for me. Organically however Rhodey made some sense.  He was in the pages of Iron Man comics long enough to develop his own voice and long enough in story context to become familiar with Stark Tech. That's how Rhodey came into his own as War Machine.

Just like Rhodey, Shuri was retconned. She was evolving as a character and had her own voice. I thought her evolutionary path as a character with her own identity lied as president and CEO of Wakandan Design Group rather than as queen of Wakanda. From there she could have worn her high tech panther armor and called herself Wildcat. She could have had a secret identity and became Central Wakanda's (the Golden City) first official, traditional, friendly neighbor hood super heroine.

Wildcat and War Machine could have hooked up for business, high tech adventure and romance.



The comic world would have went crazy. First he Black Panther and Storm, then  Shuri and Rhodey. What's next? I'll tell you... the Falcon and Misty Knight.

Shuri makes more sense than Hunter the White Wolf origin wise. Priest's talent as a writer is what made characters like Hunter, Casper and even Ross work in the pages of Black Panther but his penchant to alleviate what he perceived as the discomfort of LCB or so called white readership proved unnecessary. He may have lost nothing making those characters Afrakan (so called black) and may have even gained something by showing the range of ethnic diversity within Afrakan people.

Hunter an Afrakan, orphaned because of his parents political influence and royal lineage in one of Wakanda's neighboring countries. Ross an Afrakan (so called African American)  top graduate from the finest HBCUs in the country, lawyer, US government liaison and card carrying member of the Boule. Casper an Afrakan (so called African American), light skinned but not bi-racial urban dweller representing the intelligence and consciousness of the Hip Hop generation.

Imagine the insightful and complex word play that could be written for these characters. Combine them with Queen Divine Justice, the Dora Milaje and Monica Lynne; W'kabi, Taku, Zuri and uncle S'Yan and witness a true supporting cast.

I think the discomfort some may have with Shuri arises from how she became queen in conjunction with how Tchalla brutally fell to Doom and supposedly lost the mantles of kingship and Black Panther. I f anyone, Storm should have become the Black Panther as she was already queen.

It was teased.


Also it would have been a given that Storm as the Black Panther for the Deadliest of the Species arc was most certainly temporary.

Aw, Francisco, you have no idea the hornet's nest you've just stirred.

Just telling it like it is. T'Challa should've never been replaced as the Black Panther. He doesn't need siblings. The only one who worked well for the mythos was the White Wolf due the dynamic of their relationship.

This is the only thing that will keep Shuri from returning after this story.  From the last I heard, Hickman is not writing for Marvel after Secret Wars is over.  Which means, what happens to BP and his personal world might be decided by whoever is going to write BP next.  If the new writer wants a clean slate, or is like Francisco and doesn't like Shuri, then her death along with the rest might not be undone.   Or she could return but in a different form.

OF course, this assumes there is even a new writer chosen to take BP at this point.  Hickman might leave a lot of things in Limbo, because he has no idea what Marvel plans to do with BP next.  He might even have been told to clear the board, so BP can start all over to match the movies.

Aw, Francisco, you have no idea the hornet's nest you've just stirred.

Just telling it like it is. T'Challa should've never been replaced as the Black Panther. He doesn't need siblings. The only one who worked well for the mythos was the White Wolf due the dynamic of their relationship.

I have no problem with Shuri as BP. And the reality is? Had RH's run still selling very well at the time that Ledkilla came onboard? Shuri still WOULD NOT have been BP. TChalla would be gallivanting about the MU pimp slapping people and have contributed in mighty ways to every corner of the MU. Imagine Age Of Apocalypse with the Marriage Of The Century still intact and strong.  TChalla and Ororo would have been all up in the X-Men and in the F4 and in the Avengers and in every major event [ including that FEAR ITSELF thing ] front and center.

Let me repeat this: I'm still a 100% life long fan of the Marriage Of The Century. I'm a perpetual enemy of why and how it was dismantled, and how the haters dissed both Ororo and TChalla from that point to this.

I also don't mind Hunter being Afrakan. That whole tableau of Afrakan supporting cast as Ture imagined it would be really good to have. Um. Can we have more props for The Queen Mother and Uncle T'Syan? Thanks. We need that. Okay. And howzabout a return of T'Chan and The Cannibal and Brother Voodoo to Wakanda? Moon Knight would also be a natural. Jousting with Mordo and the corrupt archangel Zadkiel who manipulated the 7 Spirits of Vengeance would be called for. A final throwdown with The Death Tiger and a much needed beatdown of Killmonger needed to jump off. And a return of Photon/Spectrum, Blade, Rhodey, Falcon...and Beta Ray Bill. No. We need a BLACK Thor. I heard that Beta Ray was originally supposed to be the Black Thor from soembody, but they changed things up...a Black Thor at that time would have been too controversial.

Basically TChalla would have been able to get together a whole lot of dope underused characters. Shang Chi. Moondragon. The Celestial Madonna. Taskmaster. High Evolutionary. Run freakin circles around The Leader. The Sentry's alter ego, The Void. And still run with the big dawgs in every book.  Show him sparring against Wolverine Elektra Gambit and Longshot...at the same time...and winning. Then giving them advice. Hahahaha. Show him sparring against Blade. Everyone would love that.

Show him sparring against Josiah X. Win. [ No way does Josiah have the experience and h2h training that TChalla has. We don't even have to talk about intellect ].

Show TChalla talking with The Contemplator and evaluating his intellect against the other Top 9 Intellects of the MU. For the record? Imo TChalla is the MU's most balanced megagenius AND the MU's undisputed uberprepbeast. Reed can be the greatest intellect of the MU but he got his intellect via cosmic rays. And he lacks the spiritual strength cultural maturity combat skills etc that TChalla has. And Reed isn't smarter than TChalla+The Panthers who augment him spiritually with their knowledge and intellect. TChalla by himself is Reed's equal in intellect [ and still Reed's superior in uberprept, spiritual strength, cultural maturity, combat skills etc ] but TChalla as THE BLACK PANTHER with the augmented intellect of the undefeated supergeniuses of THE BLACK PANTHER line? Runs circles around Reed. TChalla as THE BLACK PANTHER is the walking equivalent to The Council of Reeds incarnated in one person.

This allows us to really explore the difference between TChalla WITHOUT the powers of THE BLACK PANTHER and TChalla AS THE BLACK PANTHER. TChalla the man is not as powerful as TChalla THE BLACK PANTHER.

[KIP LEWIS]

Reed can be the greatest intellect of the MU but he got his intellect via cosmic rays. And he lacks the spiritual strength cultural maturity combat skills etc that TChalla has.

Mainstream Reed didn't get his intellect via the cosmic rays.   Ultimate Reed's intellect increased because of the change but mainstream Reed's intellect is all natural.   (Just like his father who is in their league for intellect. )

[KidKamikaze10]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Shuri hasn't done a thing to hamper the Black Panther franchise.

[Francisco]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Shuri hasn't done a thing to hamper the Black Panther franchise.

Other than been at the forefront and taking the name of the Black Panther.



By the way is not misogyny is just that I don't like her character. She is not T'Challa. Had they replaced T'Challa with a man it would be the same for me: Crap. I didn't like it when Christopher Priest did it back then and didn't like it later on when they shoved Shuri into continuity out of nowhere.

[Ture]

Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

[Francisco]

Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Shuri is just a retcon that undermined T'Challa in every possible way. Dark meat for the Wolverine to feast upon. Don't delude yourself.

[Salustrade]

Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.

Shuri hasn't done a thing to hamper the Black Panther franchise.

Other than been at the forefront and taking the name of the Black Panther.



By the way is not misogyny is just that I don't like her character. She is not T'Challa. Had they replaced T'Challa with a man it would be the same for me: Crap. I didn't like it when Christopher Priest did it back then and didn't like it later on when they shoved Shuri into continuity out of nowhere.

Of course she's not T'Challa.

That's the whole freaking point.

And as far as the misogyny thing goes, I feel that that's the case for a lot of guys who have problems with Shuri as a character.

You say that this isn't the case with you so I'll just have to take it on faith, but suffice it to say that complaining about Reginald Hudlin launching a viable female character way before Marvel decided that increased diversity was all the rage, kind've reeks of extremely biased myopia to say the least.

Shuri represents that straight edge Wakandan pragmatism that for the most part, has been lacking from T'Challa's character post Doomwar and that's no ones fault but the writers post Hudlin (with the exception of David Liss) who decided to write T'Challa as a prize chump.

[Francisco]

Marvel didn't need a viable female character. It had dozens of viable female characters it has Storm and it has Monica Rambeu. We only have one T'Challa one black male of African origin and they took him away and replaced him with a new honey for Wolverine. Every line uttered by Shuri every scene and every adventure she was involved was screen time taken from T'Challa. By the way she was chumped too. So much that she's dead.

[KIP LEWIS]

Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Shuri is just a retcon that undermined T'Challa in every possible way. Dark meat for the Wolverine to feast upon. Don't delude yourself.

The only way that statement could be true is if Reggie created her to dilute BP and. ..I won't dignify the rest. 

Yes,  she is a recont.   Marvel let Reggie do a soft reboot on BP.  Got rid of the tumor,  gave him a sister.  So.   Not the first recont.  Won't be the last.   That is standard fare for comics.

[Francisco]

Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Shuri is just a retcon that undermined T'Challa in every possible way. Dark meat for the Wolverine to feast upon. Don't delude yourself.

The only way that statement could be true is if Reggie created her to dilute BP and. ..I won't dignify the rest. 

Yes,  she is a recont.   Marvel let Reggie do a soft reboot on BP.  Got rid of the tumor,  gave him a sister.  So.   Not the first recont.  Won't be the last.   That is standard fare for comics.

What is more dilution than having him crippled and replaced by his sister? I don't think that was Hudlin's intention when he originally created the character but it was exactly what happened.

[Salustrade]

Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Shuri is just a retcon that undermined T'Challa in every possible way. Dark meat for the Wolverine to feast upon. Don't delude yourself.

You must have Shuri mixed up with Storm as far as that Wolverine mess is concerned.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about to be quite frank.

[KIP LEWIS]

A) Reggie really didn't get to finish it.
B) This is what serial fiction is about.   Batman,  Superman,  Iron Man,  etc. , all have been laid up.   All have been replaced.  Simple truth is if you can't put BP through the ringer, rip him up,  and put him through hell,   and more,  then he is useless comic book character.