Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS  (Read 1100651 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2415 on: May 07, 2015, 07:37:09 pm »
The reason he looks so shocked is because he just realized the Beyonders used HIS plans to destroy everything!  :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

TChalla's like: "Yall BIT my STEEZ!! Interuniversal HATAS!!"
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2416 on: May 08, 2015, 04:31:20 pm »
Kimoyo, the Wildcat reference was my attempt to point out the absurdity of Tchalla loosing some key components of his mythos. Plus I was trying to entertain Sal. Something told me write the What If Shuri piece in the Vibranium Trumpet.  ;D

Well, you definitely got my attention with that post Brotha Ture. :D

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2417 on: May 22, 2015, 07:26:17 pm »
The Black Panther Continues... or does he?

Secret Wars #5 variant

Now that New Avengers has concluded (at least for the time being), the remaining question is, was it worth it for Tchalla and the Black Panther franchise? Relative to the Black Panther portions of the story, in terms of execution and demonstrated (on panel) comprehension of who said character is... no. The standout moments for Tchalla were blunted (new tech and still lost three children from the gate), off panel (the infamous fight with Black Dwarf), done by Shuri (doing what giants do) and anti climatic (putting the dagger where it belonged).

On panel, Tchalla's inconsistent presence lacked the essential rectitude and resolve I've came to not only appreciate but expect from the Black Panther.  The losses prior to the final incursion were far too great. I refer to the respect of his ancestors, the slaying Shuri and the destruction of Wakanda. The faux pas was having Tchalla being the supposed moral compass of the story. The over arching objective of the Black Panther is the protection and advancement of Wakanda. I would have preferred witnessing Tchalla doing all he could to save Wakanda as his primary goal and the rest of the world by proxy i.e. his subtle manipulation of the Illuminati.

Am I now expected to muddle through Secret Wars and Battleworld with hopes of exotic Black Panther sightings?

An actual black panther next to a female Moon Knight. Really?


Supposed Panther peaking over Mandarin's left shoulder. Possibly not even Wakandan.


I think not.

The MCU notwithstanding, the Black Panther needs to stand alone to confirm his modus operandi  and firmly enrich his own back story. He needs to reestablish the mystique he had during the Priest era. Thank the Panther Spirit his compilations start dropping in August.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2418 on: May 23, 2015, 02:49:19 pm »
That is a good post. Let me get back to this in a minute...
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
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http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2419 on: May 24, 2015, 07:41:51 am »
That is a good post. Let me get back to this in a minute...

More Hickman caping perchance?

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2420 on: May 24, 2015, 09:59:57 am »
Are you sure that it's BP behind Manderin,  it looks like Ronin's mask to me.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2421 on: May 24, 2015, 02:50:12 pm »
Also, that warrior behind the Mandarin has a white arm/shoulder.

I share your succinct and well posited conclusions Brother Ture!

Peace,

Mont

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2422 on: May 24, 2015, 02:56:38 pm »
BTW - was in my LCS yesterday and saw a "SW: Battleworlds" with a faux BP collectible action figure variant cover despite the fact that BP is no where to be found in the issue, WTF Marvel!?!

Peace,

Mont

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2423 on: May 25, 2015, 03:35:41 am »
That is a good post. Let me get back to this in a minute...

More Hickman caping perchance?

We simply see matters differently, Salustrade. I seem to recall more than a few instances in which I disagreed with how Hickman did various things with BP and other characters. However, my disagreement with various specifics didn't detract from the appreciation I have for the overall story. And the deftness with which Hickman executed a multiyear multitiered story with multiple changing arcs and shockers that kept all of us...all...of...us...guessing until the end of each arc.

As I recall, I was one of the first on this board...in fact, THEE first...to guess that this story might very well be some far flung horror morality play. As a writer myself, I deeply appreciate the audacity of such daring plotting and execution. The maturity as a writer and the risk taking it takes to go to such unprecedented extremes. I recognize these things in Hickman, and give him his props.

I recognize that there are some adversaries that even the mighty Black Panther TChalla cannot overcome alone. Some of our esteemed HEF brethren seem to be unwilling to face this clear and obvious truth. While I do take exception to TChalla not defeating Black Dwarf on page, and I take exception to quite a few other points as well, I do NOT disagree wit hthe idea that TChalla can e defeated and he CANNOT defeat the freakin Beyonders. Period.

Oh. Some of you would like me to give examples of just a few things that I disliked that Hickman did while very much liking overall the story that Hickman wrote? Okay. Howzabout:

TChalla not using his ubertech much earlier and sooner, not flashing his vaunted uberprep to the max, even in a failing effort, which would make the stakes, the triumphs and the eventual loss of everything facing the Illuminati and their failure to save the MCU even more compelling

The rather repugnant sight of Reed pulling a TChalla planning wise and uberprep wise. Not that Reed or any of The Illuminati are not incredibly skilled prep geniuses, my gripe lies in the fact that nobody in the MCU is as good as TChalla is when it comes to uberprep. Uberprep is TChalla's thing, that's one of his trademark calling cards. He should have been all up the wazoo and out the Yin Yang and around the sun dial and glowing with the Ka of uberprep from page one.

My intense intense intense dislike of TChalla saying to essentially "Batman" in the alternate Golden Society universe that this Batman is probably abetter fighter than he is [ even though, we must recall, that Priest himself was the first to say that Batman would probably win a fightg between himself and TChalla so that TChalla could achieve the goal that TChalla was ACTUALLY gunning for, and Priest was given essentially a major pass for such a statment, whereas Hickman is raked over the coals for essentially incarnating in a story the sentiments that Priest expressed ]. For the record? I think that TChalla even when he's NOT The Black Panther would kick the living crap out of Batman AND Bane. As The Black Panther? TChalla would storm them both at the same time.

TChalla not having a far ranging highly nuanced multilayered backup plan including everything from the new stuff he picked up from Shadow Physics to the protocols he had in place to defeat The Marvel Zombies modified to face this current threat, all the way to plans involving heroes and characters like both The Blue Marvel AND Doctor/Brother Voodoo, as well as Blade, Photon, Drake [ a later teacher of Elektra, who one sidedly whooped Elektra's tail, who allegedly was killed by the Hand; in my fanfic, we learn that TChalla saved her, kept her tucked away with the Dora Milaje and Midnight Angels, sent her on the mission which eventuated in her interaction with Elektra, and her "death" gives her a terrific cover as one of the leaders of the many crack superteams that TChalla has performing multiple subtle missions round the world at all times. Drake leads a team that TChalla has executing a few important specific missions, including Deadpool, Taskmaster, Elektra, and a few other surprise characters in the performance of a subtle mission with multipronged objectives that plays a significant part in the story ] War Machine, Taskmaster, and a few other oddball characters that would make perfect sense for TChalla to use in the pursuit of his goals.

TChalla not exploring what being The King of the Dead means [ which I do in my fanfic ] and accessing the colossal collective abilities of The Panther Spirits. In my fanfic I point out that The Panther Spirits are in essence are a combo of The Council of Reeds, an army of Captain Americas, a guild of druids clerics and sorcerers, something on the order of literally 1000 tech super geniuses equivalent to or just shy of Tony Stark and Hank Pym [ I cannot see how they could be in the main LESS intelligent than Stark and/or Pym ], Ka warriors equivalent to a blend of Emma Frost and Shang Chi with a strong emphasis on Natural Law harmony rockin weapon skills superior to Hawkeye in every way, and more. Exploring this ability of TChalla's and having characters like Beast and Reed and Tony and Cho comment upon what TChalla chooses to reveal would be an eye opener in a major way for all involved. We'd see once and or all that TChalla defines his own intellectual/spiritual/ka/psionic/warrior/tech/philosophical/etc reality. I would have included twists and turns and fleshed out foreshadowings from ORIGINAL SIN in TChalla's character, too. Which makes TChalla a much more formidable opponent who would have tumbled to Doom being Rabum Alal and a few other things as well, yet he would still fail to defeat The Beyonders. Also in my fanfic I point out that prior to TChalla ascending to his station as King of the Dead, TChalla...and all previous and current Panthers...can commune with The Panther Spirits in The Panther Pavilion, but only TChalla as King of the Dead can literally incarnate the collective knowledge and ability of them all; either one at a time or in rare instances of great peril he can elect to incarnate the collective abilities of all of the Panther Spirits at the same time. His choice. This gives TChalla the terrifying ability to wield Hulk like strength, somewhere in the area of faster than Quicksilves but slower than Photon level speed, Celestial Madonna level hand to hand skills, Contemplater level Ka and/or Psionic abilities, Thor level experience with facing and defeating cosmic threats in hand to hand battle, employ ubermagnificent tactics aided by flashes of Precognition, etc. [ Remember, TChalla acquired clairvoyance and probably ESP during the King Kirby run ].  Of course, becoming the receptacle for the collective Panther Spirits' abilities would prove to be insanely draining [ making by contrast Storm's off handed housing of the essence of Eternity all the more dazzling ], and therefore be an option that TChalla would actively seek to avoid unless pressed into the most unanswerable of extremes.

Imagine. The African Council of Reeds aka The Panther Spirits, TChalla, Reed, Tony, the Illuminati as a whole, The actual Council of Reeds, The Contemplaters of various dimensions, all working together to solve The Incursions and reach beyond them to The Beyonders. And failing to defeat The Beyonders. Losing everything. Reeds in the Council that we like, start dying. Contemplaters get killed. The Illuminati may even be called upon to battle and destroy Earths and realities that their former allies inhabit. Talk about a truly terrible moral quandary!!

The Panther Spirits provide an incredibly multifaceted, spiritual, unique to BP, African, uberbrilliant uber-lethal resource who in and of themselves also present unique challenges and dangers with their communion. Nobody has explored this, and the truly extraordinary jaw dropping knowledge etc which such a spiritual link confers upon and conveys to TChalla. Exploring that past of TChalla's provides all kinds of ripe territory for magnificent storytelling. How does TChalla reply to threat of Thanos? Well a good writer could conceive of something like what I have in my fanfic when I say...7000 years ago his ancestor the Black Panther known in her time as Sansakhenaton the Star Seeker came across Thanos, managed to thwart the Mad Titan's plans at that time and narrowly escaped with her life. Ever since then, she not only inaugurated the practice that led to the specific cultural manifestation of the kids who died at the hands of Black Swan's henchmen in New Avengers 1, but she also specifically plotted and planned to defeat and outwit both Thanos AND The Celestials. She knew she couldn't defeat them alone, or even with the collective knowledge and power of Wakanda during her time, but constantly planning and preparing for these threats specifically for 7000 years gives Wakanda the best chance by far of all Earth civilizations to defeat Thanos. This is the kind of thinking that I would have poured into each of the Illuminati, including the criminally underused Beast, Doctor Strange, and vastly underplayed massive battle tech megagenius and combat megagenius of TChalla himself, much less TChalla The King of the Dead. Imo beyond question The Panther Spirits in the Panther Pavilion provide invaluable opportunities to explore the Africanness of TChalla while establishing beyond question that having The Panther Spirits as guides and consultants gives EVERY living Panther [ I'm looking at you, Shuri and Syan the Swift ] the equivalent of The Council of Reeds, Council of Captain Americas, Council of Brother Voodoos, Contemplaters, etc to confer with; the distinction of access and whatnot being directly connected to the Royal Rank of the supplicant Panther. Therefore, Shuri Queen of Wakanda can access more Panther Spirits at once and command more complete obeisance, and confer with them for longer, than Syan the Former King of Wakanda, current High Prince and Esteemed Panther [ the first Panther to ever hold all of these titles with two simultaneous positions in the history of Wakanda ]. And Syan can confer with more Panther Spirits than Mendinao and Zawaviri, as each of these men are High Priests whose rank is below the Arch High Priest stations and gradients available only to Panthers who are also Royalty. In my fanfic, the Queen Mother cannot By Right confer with the collective Panther Spirits, however, she may confer By Right with the Spirit of TChaka alone. Etc etc. Hickman, imo, missed incredible opportunities to write how amazing The Panthers are and how jaw dropping TChalla is, and thereby truly convey the massive menace of his villains by having his villains overcome The Panthers along with the rest of the MU. As this was a horror story the heroes would never win and weren't supposed to win, the heroic resistance and genius in resistance shown by these heroes would be all the more impressive and the gripping page turning tension and fear and sense of inevitable loss would be all the more palpable imo if the heroes pulled out all the stops and fought tooth and nail in ways that the most ardent fans of each character would agree is the maximum expression of each hero...and the heroes collectively...AND THEY STILL LOST.


This is the kind of detail and thinking and a lot more that I would have poured into Hickman's story. Who knows? Given the breadth and space and perhaps double the size of each book, Hickman may have worked with these things. Idk. I only know that I would have done this.

But. Despite my differences with Hickman. I have seen for years now that he's going toward an end goal that will be vastly superior to anything that came prior to his penning his MU changing and expanding story.

We already know that TChalla is almost guaranteed his own solo in 2016. The author of his solo is likely to be a Black scribe. This much was pretty strongly inferred by the link to CBR that you, Salustrade, provided us with.

So let's see. ,Thanks to Hickman? The whole MU...not just TChalla, but EVERYONE...is getting a top to bottom makeover. We the readers have no frickin clue as to how this megamonster blockbuster story will end, beyond a few really critical key things for TChalla and others. Garth Ennis and writers like him...who are not fans of spandex rockin superheroes...get to write incredible works of fiction in the old comic book style. Stories of high adventure rendered via pictures and story without any superpowers needed. And it's all good.

What do I mean by that? How could this be 'all good" for TChalla? Well, there's:

TChalla onscreen in Captain America Civil War? Check. TChalla being written by a Black writer circa 2016 or early 2017 [ a Black writer scribing TChalla was specifically mentioned in the article that you, Salustrade, linked us to. An article which was posted on CBR. We know that there aren't many Black writers around and even less Black comic scribes around, so whoever this writer is...s/he is gonna be good and will have TChalla do superfly stuff. It's almost certain that the writer will be someone who's NOT from the comic book industry. If the Black writer has written in the comic industry before? We're looking at a very short list inclusive of our own RH, Kevin Grevioux, and stalwarts like Priest himself being called back to the book that he made cool ]after a multiyear absence? Check. TChalla getting his turn in the Avengers roundabout summer 2017? Check. TChalla's solo movie trilogy starting round 2018? Check. 

This is going to end up well. Period. And that's a good thing for TChalla the character. Period. So. While you, Salustrade, Ture, and other of my esteemed brethren on HEF and even I at various points am not thrilled with every twist and turn of the BP saga [ let's not pretend that we all loved every atom of Priest's and RH's run either ], the overall end result isn't even remotely in doubt that TChalla and all of the more inclusive, more diverse MCU will vastly vastly benefit and be vastly more inclusive for the first time ever. And that's a good thing all around. That is THEE thing that our heroes like Priest and RH have specifically called for and championed.

In the face of this? Our particular dislikes of specific events and specific characterizations simply pale into insignificance. In the grand order of MCU schemes? This new path is the way to go.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 04:00:23 am by supreme illuminati »
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
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Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2424 on: May 25, 2015, 04:45:55 am »
The Black Panther Continues... or does he?

Secret Wars #5 variant

Now that New Avengers has concluded (at least for the time being), the remaining question is, was it worth it for Tchalla and the Black Panther franchise? Relative to the Black Panther portions of the story, in terms of execution and demonstrated (on panel) comprehension of who said character is... no. The standout moments for Tchalla were blunted (new tech and still lost three children from the gate), off panel (the infamous fight with Black Dwarf), done by Shuri (doing what giants do) and anti climatic (putting the dagger where it belonged).

On panel, Tchalla's inconsistent presence lacked the essential rectitude and resolve I've came to not only appreciate but expect from the Black Panther.  The losses prior to the final incursion were far too great. I refer to the respect of his ancestors, the slaying Shuri and the destruction of Wakanda. The faux pas was having Tchalla being the supposed moral compass of the story. The over arching objective of the Black Panther is the protection and advancement of Wakanda. I would have preferred witnessing Tchalla doing all he could to save Wakanda as his primary goal and the rest of the world by proxy i.e. his subtle manipulation of the Illuminati.

Am I now expected to muddle through Secret Wars and Battleworld with hopes of exotic Black Panther sightings?

An actual black panther next to a female Moon Knight. Really?


Supposed Panther peaking over Mandarin's left shoulder. Possibly not even Wakandan.


I think not.

The MCU notwithstanding, the Black Panther needs to stand alone to confirm his modus operandi  and firmly enrich his own back story. He needs to reestablish the mystique he had during the Priest era. Thank the Panther Spirit his compilations start dropping in August.



Okay. Good post above, Brother. If you are not down to read BW? Okay, cool.

I didn't know that TChalla's compilations start dropping in August. Idk they were dropping AT ALL. Good lookin out.

Regarding Moon Knight being in the company of an actual black panther? Not surprising to me. Remember back awhile ago when we were pointing out the many instances of massive ignorance, the large stupidities contradictions gaps and errors regarding African pantheons? When the Greeks arrived, Bast added to her profile the role of Moon goddess. Which is right up Khonshu's alley. Bast has had many roles in addition to her Panther Goddess role. She was the Lady of Ointments, Goddess of the Sun, Sensuality, healing, fertility, War, and several other important domains.

It is entirely possible that Moon Knight could worship one aspect of Bast and TChalla worship another aspect of her. This kind of thing was commonplace in Pharaohnic Ptahmerrian. Priest was the first to write with soe knowledge and affinity for both characters that herre was a history and a link between Moon Knight and TChalla the Black Panther. This expression of having TChalla the Lord of Lower Egyptia while Moon Knight rules Upper Egyptia in Battleworld is actually closer to historical truth. Also the visual contrast between the [ I assume still ] white garbed Moon Knight and the Black wreathed Black Panther is striking  and dramatic.

I wonder if this Black Panther is the BP of 616 who survived the Life Raft? I wonder what the identity of this new Moon Knight is? Wouldn't it be sweet to find out that this new Black Panther or this new Moon Knight...if it IS a new Moon Knight...was ACTUALLY SHURI? That would be SWEET. Lol. Mark Spector was Moon Knight last, wasn't he? Am I wrong, here? Somebody please help me out.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 03:38:47 pm by supreme illuminati »
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2425 on: May 25, 2015, 05:16:02 am »
The rather repugnant sight of Reed pulling a TChalla planning wise and uberprep wise. Not that Reed or any of The Illuminati are not incredibly skilled prep geniuses, my gripe lies in the fact that nobody in the MCU is as good as TChalla is when it comes to uberprep. Uberprep is TChalla's thing, that's one of his trademark calling cards. He should have been all up the wazoo and out the Yin Yang and around the sun dial and glowing with the Ka of uberprep from page one.


You want to know why BP is not written as the Uberprep genius you think?  Because for the most part, I don't think people believe he is.  Priest added this element into the character, but it really hasn't been followed up upon, sufficiently to make it a recognized characteristic by the bulk of Marvel's writers and the general audience. Priest's work though critically praised, was not an wide-reaching title and didn't influence enough writers to adopt all those changes.   DC's route for showing Batman as the uberplanner was to have someone steal his plans and use them successfully to take down the JLA.  Plus it was a very popular and widely read series that has been used into an animated movie.  Now, most DC writers accept this as part of who Batman is, and more importantly, the general comic book audience does too, not just Batman fans. 

For BP to truly be an uberprep character, he needs widely read stories where his plans stop Galactus, stop Thanos, stop Ultron or even to take down the Avengers like Bats took down the JLA.  (But then people would accuse them of stealing Batman.)  When the general audience expects BP to be the uberprep hero, then he truly will be.

With this reboot that isn't a reboot, they could fix this, if they think being an uberprep character is what they want.  (Actually given that article where Waid commented on what he would write, gives me the impression Marvel doesn't have any idea of what they are going to do with BP post-Secret Wars.  They have vague plans, but until they get a writer, they don't have anything specific.)

BTW, you keep referencing Marvel Zombies; you probably should check the time line, because the Zombies did make it to earth.  I think after BP's encounter with them, but that was so long ago, I don't remember which happened first.  But if the Zombies reached earth after BP made the statement, it means he failed or didn't get a chance to do it.)

« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 05:46:14 am by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2426 on: May 25, 2015, 07:25:48 am »
Kimoyo, the Wildcat reference was my attempt to point out the absurdity of Tchalla loosing some key components of his mythos. Plus I was trying to entertain Sal. Something told me write the What If Shuri piece in the Vibranium Trumpet.  ;D

Well, you definitely got my attention with that post Brotha Ture. :D

These things I do try Brother Sal8)

Are you sure that it's BP behind Manderin,  it looks like Ronin's mask to me.


I'm not sure at all Kip. Some at CBR have stated such however.

Also, that warrior behind the Mandarin has a white arm/shoulder.

I share your succinct and well posited conclusions Brother Ture!

Peace,

Mont

One mind brother KImoyo, one mind. That is why I said he's possibly not Wakandan.



This is precisely my point. I am unwilling to search through issues trying to find panels of  ambiguous BP reinterpretations and character references.
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2427 on: May 25, 2015, 10:27:40 pm »
Brother Supreme, while your post # 2423 was a response to Sal I would like to comment on some of it.

Yes, Tchalla the Black Panther can in fact be beaten, he can loose. He has done such on too many occasions. The problem resides in the means by which said losses occurs. As a connoisseur of the Black Panther, I insist on a consummate interpretation of the Black Panther, expressed through whatever medium (comic book, animation, live action etc.) that demonstrates a comprehensive and well researched character study. 

Kip points to the elephant in the room.
Quote
You want to know why BP is not written as the Uberprep genius you think?  Because for the most part, I don't think people believe he is.

The inconsistency in expressing the raison d'etre of the Black Panther is why he suffers such ignominious defeats.

Thus one cannot long sustain the argument that Tchalla is a scientific and technological peer of Reed and Tony if through out much of his comic book existence he is not seen creating and advancing in these fields. This is why I posit the prerequisites that justify Tchalla's genius lie in his introduction in FF#52, Tales of Suspense #s 97-99 and his early Avengers appearances. Astonishing Tales #s 6-7 followed by Jungle Action #s 6-24 were the first to contradict this.

I quote Priest.
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Stripped of his advanced tech, that Reed Richards marveled at in Panther's first appearance, a mindset evolved that Panther, for some odd reason, created incredible advanced technology while eschewing the use of  the same. I believe someone explained it to me that Panther feels a true warrior doesn't need bullet-proof costumes or global positioning communicards. That, to prove himself a man and a true warrior, Panther would go into battle side by side with the likes of Thor and Iron Man, and not take so much as a flashlight.
 

However Kip is incorrect when he states...
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Priest added this element into the character

As evidenced by the Black Panther's appearances in the above mentioned titles the precedence for preping was Tchalla's from the outset. Priest simply did the wise thing in returning him back to status quo but I'll let Priest speak for himself.

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Expletive-laden rants came in from people who know nothing about Panther, never really bought Panther on any regular basis, and who, frankly, think Panther is lame but who have bought into the severely errant illogic of the day—  the de-evolution of a very clever and very unique character created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Again and again I was asked, "How dare you change Panther!", to which I replied, "I didn't change Panther—  other writers over the years changed Panther, losing sight of FF #52. *I* changed him back."

Onto a different but not unrelated front; If you think Tchalla is on Doom's intellectual level but cannot conceive of a way to defeat a Beyonder when  Victor has done so previously what does that say of Tchalla? I was of the opinion that Doom was the pinnacle of the popular scientific community followed by Reed, Stark, Pym, Tchalla, Banner etc. While on par with these greats Tchalla's unique advantage over them lied in his superior strategic and tactical capabilities coupled with his psychological manipulations that lead others to underestimate him.

Addressing some of your other comments in the order they were received; regarding the Dark Knight, I think Priest was implying Tchalla would let Batman win.

Hickman has given us the absolute meaning of Tchalla King Of The Dead status...just take a look at Wakanda pre and post incursion. Nothing but death and destruction and more death.
 
Afrakan council of Reeds? No.  Afrakan council of Afrakan ancestors only? Yes. The problem with Hickman's ancestors is they are tabula rasa. They have no true history or back story, they are just a underdeveloped, poorly executed plot device. Think of it this way, if Tchalla gets his answers from them, doesn't that diminishes his own  intellectual acumen.  Hell, for that matter why isn't Tchalla levitating?

A Vulcan mind link reveals Hickman's logic. First New York is threatened, then the planet. Let go bigger and threaten the star system then the universe. How about the multiverse itself? For next years encore, we travel back in time, through all the ages and epochs where Black Panther fans can witness the different incarnations of their favorite hero before I destroy the very first moment.  Such standouts as Politically Correct Panther, Black Power Panther, Civil Rights Panther, Jim Crow Panther, the ever popular Slave Panther, Primitive Jungle Panther, Roman Panther, Greek Panther and  finally Egyptian Panther.

Secret Wars and Battleworld have the potential to be just as bad if not worst for the Black Panther than New Avengers.  Hell, Cap gets to go to Planet Hulk and I bet it isn't to prove himself. So it is not a question of being down to read Secret Wars or Battleworld Brother Supreme but one of fatigue for the inexcusably poor handling of the Black Panther.

PS
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That is a good post.  Okay. Good post above, Brother.
Much appreciation for the kind words Supreme.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 10:34:06 pm by Ture »
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2428 on: May 25, 2015, 10:34:51 pm »
The rather repugnant sight of Reed pulling a TChalla planning wise and uberprep wise. Not that Reed or any of The Illuminati are not incredibly skilled prep geniuses, my gripe lies in the fact that nobody in the MCU is as good as TChalla is when it comes to uberprep. Uberprep is TChalla's thing, that's one of his trademark calling cards. He should have been all up the wazoo and out the Yin Yang and around the sun dial and glowing with the Ka of uberprep from page one.


You want to know why BP is not written as the Uberprep genius you think?  Because for the most part, I don't think people believe he is.  Priest added this element into the character, but it really hasn't been followed up upon, sufficiently to make it a recognized characteristic by the bulk of Marvel's writers and the general audience. Priest's work though critically praised, was not an wide-reaching title and didn't influence enough writers to adopt all those changes.   DC's route for showing Batman as the uberplanner was to have someone steal his plans and use them successfully to take down the JLA.  Plus it was a very popular and widely read series that has been used into an animated movie.  Now, most DC writers accept this as part of who Batman is, and more importantly, the general comic book audience does too, not just Batman fans...

For BP to truly be an uberprep character, he needs widely read stories where his plans stop Galactus, stop Thanos, stop Ultron or even to take down the Avengers like Bats took down the JLA.  (But then people would accuse them of stealing Batman.)  When the general audience expects BP to be the uberprep hero, then he truly will be.

Marvel sanctioned a continuation of T'Challa as the "uberprep" strategist  (remember Kip this started with Stan and Jack having T'Challa prepare for and take down the FF) in the Avengers "Red Zone" story when T'Challa brought Doom in to consult on the problem and out maneuvered Tony Stark to acquire a blood sample.  I believe Geoff Johns was the writer.  Even though Johns jumped to DC shortly thereafter, Marvel editorial still had to approve how T'Challa was used which did continue the "uberprep" character trait.

Peace,

Mont

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2429 on: May 26, 2015, 03:59:09 am »
Ok... when I say uberprep king that Priest added I am talking about his room of files to deal with every problem that could possibly come up.  That is uberprep.  Normal genius prep is planning how to solve a current situation problem like when he prepared traps for the FF in his first appearance.  The Priest version would have made those plans ten years prior to the event. 

And if we take SI's take on things,  those plans are perfect and will actually always work.   That is where I take issue,  never we have not actually seem him use enough of these plans to prove they work consistently.  That is why I don't think people see him as prep-king SI keeps describing, because it hasn't happened enough to make his defining characteristic.

But true, we haven't gotten to see enough of normal regular prep type work like we see with Reed or Steve; he is always playing second to someone.  He's never the one in charge of making these plans when he stands among a gathering of heroes.  And that's why people don't see him that way; because they don't get any real repeated opportunity to see his mind at work.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 04:35:24 am by KIP LEWIS »