Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710: THE PROTOCOLS-REQUIEM IMMATURA  (Read 1913613 times)

Offline BlackRodimus

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1590 on: August 08, 2014, 06:28:52 am »
So T'Challa cries, gets disowned by the spirit of his own father, cries in IMPOTENT RAGE as Hitler flies away (cause's Namor is basically Hitler now) while T'Challa's own teammates hold him back from giving him the death he so richly deserves...

Yet when Doom held a gun to his wife's head after killing his uncle, T'Challa looked downright bored.

Don't remind me.  :-\

...I'm not even sure Marvel likes Black Panther at this point.
"don't fight the power, be the power" - Reginald Hudlin

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1591 on: August 08, 2014, 09:42:48 am »
Yet when Doom held a gun to his wife's head after killing his uncle, T'Challa looked downright bored.
Don’t forget those nanites too that were placed in his wife. Oh oh oh I know “defending a random city in New York is harder than defending an entire kingdom” according to this guy.  Oh yeah he snapped at his wife for helping him while being in NY.
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1592 on: August 08, 2014, 01:05:16 pm »
Yet when Doom held a gun to his wife's head after killing his uncle, T'Challa looked downright bored.
Don’t forget those nanites too that were placed in his wife. Oh oh oh I know “defending a random city in New York is harder than defending an entire kingdom” according to this guy.  Oh yeah he snapped at his wife for helping him while being in NY.

Don't remind me.

I'm going to go get the books I missed...the last two NA meaning the one before this one and this one here where TChalla stomps Namor...then come back nd drop my thoughts on the books
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1593 on: August 08, 2014, 01:19:28 pm »
I wish we had an artist who could draw better than this.

At best I call this this fight cartoonish. 

Come to think of it, a better artist might have made for giving us a different impressionfrom BP breaking down last issue. It might not have looked like he was bawling.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1594 on: August 08, 2014, 03:41:48 pm »
I wish we had an artist who could draw better than this.

At best I call this this fight cartoonish. 

Come to think of it, a better artist might have made for giving us a different impressionfrom BP breaking down last issue. It might not have looked like he was bawling.

Fair points.

Peace,

Mont

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1595 on: August 08, 2014, 07:28:26 pm »
I just read issues #21 and #22.

Issue #21 was NOT the emasculating book that I was lead to believe it was. Right there within the first 10 pages of the book was the clear foreshadowing of what would happen in the forthcoming book, and for the first time right there in print uner Hickman's pen was TChalla acknowledging the destruction of his marriage and why he sacrificed it.


I completely disagree with the assertion that TChalla was completely chumped out in that book.

He WAS acting what imo is HELLA OUT OF CHARACTER in both books by yelling and crying. That was...and still is...anus. TChalla is just not that guy.

But other than that? Right away...right away...TChalla was doing exactly what Hickman said he would do under his pen: he is the moral center of THE ILLUMINATI, and he is a very brave man. He straight up defied his ancestors, he didn't kowtow to them...he did what he thought was the right thing to do. Despite the very sensible arguments that make taking monstrous actions seem less monstrous, more sensible...but the inescapable fact is that destroying the Earths is simply not acceptable. As was previous stated by one of our illustrious HEFfas, hereos should always find another way.

There's a lot more I have to say...a lot more...but I don't have time for it.

"This is how you will be remembered, Namor..."

...so. Anyone suspect Maximus of plotting treachery? Maybe he's the villain that frees Thanos or some such? Nah. Not even Maximus is that Mad.

...right?
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1596 on: August 09, 2014, 07:52:16 am »
I completely disagree with the assertion that TChalla was completely chumped out in that book.

He WAS acting what imo is HELLA OUT OF CHARACTER in both books by yelling and crying. That was...and still is...anus. TChalla is just not that guy.

But other than that? Right away...right away...TChalla was doing exactly what Hickman said he would do under his pen: he is the moral center of THE ILLUMINATI, and he is a very brave man. He straight up defied his ancestors, he didn't kowtow to them...he did what he thought was the right thing to do. Despite the very sensible arguments that make taking monstrous actions seem less monstrous, more sensible...but the inescapable fact is that destroying the Earths is simply not acceptable. As was previous stated by one of our illustrious HEFfas, hereos should always find another way.

It has never been my intention to ruin/actually "spoil" or takeaway another reader's enjoyment of a piece of.......work, S.I.  Mine is a protest of what in my eyes is the continuing deconstruction of a favorite character.  As it has been said and I agree, this is not about a loss of "Hyper-masculinity" or a standard of masculinity for that matter.  It is about T'Challa's standing as the credible, inscrutable, planner, strategist and leader.  Where has that guy been?  CJP or Hudlin T'Challa, as the moral center of the Illuminati would have gone through with this whole anti-incursion exercise as a ruse to reveal which of the group's so called "heroes" would have actually pulled the trigger (not actually exploding the alternate Earth) and to expose Namor's treachery, which T'Challa would have already deduced, giving him the sovereign right to remand Namor for execution as a war criminal.  He then would have revealed the super heroic resolution to the incursions, which he and Reed would have worked out, and again disavowed the Illuminati. 

I don't think anyone here wanted him to actually destroy another planet, to kill or harm innocents and he didn't have to be all of what I described above to be a credible, viable and interesting character, after all NA is not his book alone.   For the record I do not care for the characterizations of Reed or Namor either.   But T'Challa was supposed to be the lead and the "moral center" of the group, not the blow hard who acts tough and makes bold pronouncements that he has no chance of backing up.  Instead, we get the flipped out, overly emotional "moral center" being restrained by the group as he screams "I'm going to kill you Namor!"  T'Challa's rep is one of being the inscrutable, premiere strategist, planner, one of the most creative intellects in the MU and yes heroes should always find another way.  Well, on top of all the yelling and bawling, being disowned by Wakanda and his KOTD subjects, he also failed to find another way.

Respect,

Mont

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1597 on: August 09, 2014, 09:29:47 am »
I just read issues #21 and #22.

Issue #21 was NOT the emasculating book that I was lead to believe it was. Right there within the first 10 pages of the book was the clear foreshadowing of what would happen in the forthcoming book, and for the first time right there in print uner Hickman's pen was TChalla acknowledging the destruction of his marriage and why he sacrificed it.


I completely disagree with the assertion that TChalla was completely chumped out in that book.

He WAS acting what imo is HELLA OUT OF CHARACTER in both books by yelling and crying. That was...and still is...anus. TChalla is just not that guy.

But other than that? Right away...right away...TChalla was doing exactly what Hickman said he would do under his pen: he is the moral center of THE ILLUMINATI, and he is a very brave man. He straight up defied his ancestors, he didn't kowtow to them...he did what he thought was the right thing to do. Despite the very sensible arguments that make taking monstrous actions seem less monstrous, more sensible...but the inescapable fact is that destroying the Earths is simply not acceptable. As was previous stated by one of our illustrious HEFfas, hereos should always find another way.

There's a lot more I have to say...a lot more...but I don't have time for it.

"This is how you will be remembered, Namor..."

...so. Anyone suspect Maximus of plotting treachery? Maybe he's the villain that frees Thanos or some such? Nah. Not even Maximus is that Mad.

...right?

Bro, there was nothing in NA#21 that was a good look for T'Challa and as far as Hickman finally referencing the breakdown of T'Challa and Ororo's marriage, that was irrelevant and even disingenuous because the annulment of the marriage had nothing to do with any in universe 616 continuity business.

It was editorially mandated and then facilitated by X-writers via AvX.

Hickman bringing it up 21 #'s later was quite pointless.

Offline Princesa

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1598 on: August 09, 2014, 11:10:04 am »
Personally I thought NA 21  was outstanding. I've enjoyed the whole of Hickman's run.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1599 on: August 09, 2014, 11:41:27 am »
Personally I thought NA 21  was outstanding. I've enjoyed the whole of Hickman's run.

What was it exactly that you found so compellingly impressive about NA#21?

Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1600 on: August 09, 2014, 01:39:39 pm »
Ahhh, New Avengers 21 and 22. The drama. If Tchalla were an actor and delivered this performance he would have earned an Oscar. Namor too, for best supporting actor. Hickman gave the "new" Avengers such a weighty task, facing insurmountable odds, the likes of which none of them have ever faced before. It is truly amazing that only one of them broke down. This is the kind of event that wold drive a man to drink. The kind of event that sends a dedicated scientist to retreat in his lab ignoring all familial cares and hygiene. The kind of event that make one so angry, they hulk out. The kind of event that makes one want to scream.

Sarcasm over.


Hickman wrote a compelling story but his Tchalla narrative diverted from this...


to this...


I can understand it is about the cumulative effect of past events, however I prefer to think Tchalla would have handled matters in a more manipulatively discrete manner. I also agree with Kimoyo, Kip and Supreme that the art did not help matters.
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1601 on: August 09, 2014, 06:46:07 pm »
Ahhh, New Avengers 21 and 22. The drama. If Tchalla were an actor and delivered this performance he would have earned an Oscar. Namor too, for best supporting actor. Hickman gave the "new" Avengers such a weighty task, facing insurmountable odds, the likes of which none of them have ever faced before. It is truly amazing that only one of them broke down. This is the kind of event that wold drive a man to drink. The kind of event that sends a dedicated scientist to retreat in his lab ignoring all familial cares and hygiene. The kind of event that make one so angry, they hulk out. The kind of event that makes one want to scream.

Sarcasm over.


Hickman wrote a compelling story but his Tchalla narrative diverted from this...


to this...


I can understand it is about the cumulative effect of past events, however I prefer to think Tchalla would have handled matters in a more manipulatively discrete manner. I also agree with Kimoyo, Kip and Supreme that the art did not help matters.


Salustrade salutes you for this rather succinctly devastating post.

How anyone could read NA #'s 21-22 and not see how OOC T'Challa was portrayed is completely beyond me.

The cartoony artwork of Schitty and Walker back-to-back didn't help matters much either but overall, Hickman has really deviated away from the intially strong portrayal of what should have been a much more pragmatic and darker T'Challa, to what now amounts to nothing more than a babbling child prone to inchoate howling and even more empty promises. :smh:

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1602 on: August 09, 2014, 07:28:39 pm »
We are completely in agreement Sal!  Ture, thank you so much for those definitive scans!  They demonstrate very clearly the digression in T'Challa's characterization, just from the earliest issues of Hickman's own story.  I do think it is possible that Hickman, for all his supposed planning and maybe because of it, wrote himself into a corner, but that does not make what has been done to T'Challa any less egregious IMO.

Peace,

Mont

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1603 on: August 09, 2014, 08:02:20 pm »
If they follow the traditional Marvel method,  I am curious what Hickman originally wrote compared to what was drawn.   He could have written. .
"BP is visually upset by his choice" and the artist turned it into that.   Then after he got the artwork,  he adds dialogue that fits it.   Then again he could have write. .. draw this and the artist did exactly what he asked.   That is why I am curious.

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #1604 on: August 09, 2014, 08:17:17 pm »
Being that this is the story Hickman planned, I'd have go with the latter.

Peace,

Mont