Poll

BP710 Story Ideas     Deadlines for selection: November 22, 2017

Death Be Not Proud-The final days of T'Chaka the Black Panther
1 (16.7%)
Lost in Space-The search for the Vibranium asteroid field
2 (33.3%)
Doomwar-The Black Payback: T'Challa v Doom as it should've been
0 (0%)
Black on Black violence-The on panel fight between the Black Panther and Black Dwarf
0 (0%)
Where is the Love-The romance of T'Challa and Ororo
0 (0%)
Sweat of the Panther-Steampunk Wakanda
1 (16.7%)
Beware Of Geek's Reply #4210 on: October 22, 2017, 07:39:29 am
1 (16.7%)
Battle's Supreme nomination  Reply #4208 on: October 22, 2017, 04:59:32 am
1 (16.7%)
Kickin' it with Kip Lewis Reply #4238 on: October 25, 2017, 08:21:20 pm
0 (0%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: November 22, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Author Topic: BP710:THE PROTOCOLS  (Read 1091485 times)

Offline Francisco

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2385 on: April 28, 2015, 04:21:54 pm »
Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

One of the realest posts on the subject of Shuri that I've seen in this thread so far.

It's like some cats have lost their damned minds up in here on some straight up misogynistic ish and don't even realise it. :smh:

Call it whatever you want. I'm glad she is dead. My only hope is that when the Marvel Universe is rebooted T'Challa is back as the only heir to the throne of T'Chaka as Kirby intended it. Jack Kirby the jew that fathered the Black Panther legend.
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Offline Daoud

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Shuri is good.
« Reply #2386 on: April 28, 2015, 07:22:34 pm »
Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.


Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

I always enjoy your post Ture but I had to comment on this one in particular and say; "Well said!" 

All I've read with Shuri has been enjoyable.  I dropped Doomwar by the third issue and have no inclination to read "Klaws..." but I enjoyed her in all of Reggie's run and the scans that Salustrade posts from New Avengers.

From what I've seen, I love both her appearances and what she represents to the Black Panther mythos.


Excelsior!

Daoud

Offline Daoud

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Stories don't write themselves.
« Reply #2387 on: April 28, 2015, 07:47:41 pm »
Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.




Shuri hasn't done a thing to hamper the Black Panther franchise.


LOL!! That gif is on point KidKamikaze! Really.  These characters don't write themselves.

Complaining about T'Challa being sidelined because of Shuri is like the X-writers saying they couldn't use Storm because she was married to T'Challa.  It doesn't stop them from using other X-men in multiple books! And the X-books and BP had the same executive Editor! (Alonso)

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Excelsior!

Daoud

Offline Daoud

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Marvel writes what they want.
« Reply #2388 on: April 28, 2015, 08:22:43 pm »









Shuri's very existence is an affront to the true Black Panther: T'Challa. It should have been T'Challa doing all those things not Shuri. I hope she stays dead so we can finally have the true Black Panther without crappy substitutes.


And your misogyny is an affront to all right thinking progressive people everywhere.


What up Maj,  :)

First, I love these pictures.

Second, I can only hope the the person you're quoting is joking.  As has been said many times on this board, the characters don't write themselves. 

T'Challa was not made a second rate Batman because of Shuri but because of a misguided attempt to increase BP's popularity by toning him down and essentially stripping him of what makes him unique as a character in the Marvel Universe.  That being the loving support of an all-powerful African nation.

Similarly, T'Challa's role in New Avengers would not have been different had the character Shuri not existed.  Going by Hickman's writing style, like T'Challa's offscreen defeat of that big orange dude, without Shuri, Wakanda's resistance probably wouldn't have been shown at all.  T'Challa would still be ...playing his part, in Hickman's story, sister or no sister.

Marvel has retreats where they brainstorm IE make up, what story they are going to tell and if said story goes against 40 years of even a major character's continuity or characterization (Civil War), they will write it if they think it will sell.



Excelsior!

Daoud

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2389 on: April 28, 2015, 10:00:42 pm »
@ Supreme and Kip.

One of the challenge with debating Tchalla's intellectual acumen in comparison to Victor, Reed and Tony is the wide breadth in between the Black Panther's scientific accomplishments. There was of course the precedent set by Lee and Kirby in Black Panther's 1966 Fantastic Four debut and 1968's Tales of Suspense.  While subsequent showings in Tchalla's early Avenger appearances showed signs of inventive genius it was during this time that the gulf between scientific inventions began to widen. There were almost no scientific inventions of notice during McGregor's  Panther's Rage, Panther vs. the Klan, Panther's Quest and Panther's Prey; nothing in Kirby's Black Panther series or Gillis' four issue limited series.

This chasm of non scientific genius arguably spans from 1971 to 1998. Unfortunately this not only holds true for Tchalla but for Wakanda as well. However during this same time period the pages of the Fantastic Four, Iron Man and where ever Dr Doom appeared are littered with great scientific achievements and advancements. It wasn't until Priest in 1998 that Tchalla became three steps ahead of his friends and enemies and not til Hudlin in 2005 that Wakanda became the unconquered nation.

Another challenge is how Tchalla does in direct competition with Reed, Tony and Victor. In regards to standard equipment, with their armors, both Iron Man and Dr Doom are far better prepared with a much greater range of protection, offensive and defensive capabilities, multiple environs and transportation than the Black Panther. If it weren't for Priest and Hickman (yes I said Hickman) the Black Panther would be little more than Liss' Man Without Fear. Notice I inferred Daredevil and not Batman, the latter to whom has constant upgrades, almost always saves himself and consistently has his own transportation.

Tchalla (and Wakanda) has been taking Ls from Victor since their inaugural meeting in  Astonishing Tales. Hudlin himself delivered one of the Black Panther's greatest defeats by Dr Doom, contradicting a previous prep upgrade he gave Tchalla in the light armor. Even McDuffie had to mention that Tchalla borrowed the idea of the cosmic ray harness from Victor. Dr Doom invents a time machine, the Black Panther has two stolen temperamental, temporal crossing frogs. Reed discovered the consistently used and constantly referenced Negative Zone while Tchalla has the single use plot device Nowhere Room.

These and many other examples are what make it difficult for the Black Panther to be seen on par with Richards, Stark and Doom. Priest is the only writer who got it right. He consistently delivered (much to the chagrin of some fanboys) a Black Panther that could be seen on the same level and in some cases exceeding said levels of Reed, Tony and Victor. Priest's secret lied in not just demonstrating the scientific intellectual ability of Tchalla but in accenting the shrewd and strategic manipulation he employed by mastering the psychology of others, due to his paramount motivation of preserving Wakanda at all cost.

Thanks for this brilliantly revealing post Ture.  8)


Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

One of the realest posts on the subject of Shuri that I've seen in this thread so far.

It's like some cats have lost their damned minds up in here on some straight up misogynistic ish and don't even realise it. :smh:


You're very welcome. Much appreciation and humble gratitude for the kind words Brother Sal.



Double triple and quadruple bravo.

But let us give RH the tech props of specifically mentioning and showing Wakanda's space program, specifically out tech'ing Namor since the times of Azziri the Wise, yes the aforementioned Light Armor, cho[ping Tony out of his armor, having OUR Ororo backing Tony down at HER Wakandan Embassy, and pretty mjuch every second of his run leading up to Doom nearly killing TChalla and Ororo and Shuri stepping up humongously behind that.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2390 on: April 28, 2015, 10:05:53 pm »
@ Supreme and Kip.

One of the challenge with debating Tchalla's intellectual acumen in comparison to Victor, Reed and Tony is the wide breadth in between the Black Panther's scientific accomplishments. There was of course the precedent set by Lee and Kirby in Black Panther's 1966 Fantastic Four debut and 1968's Tales of Suspense.  While subsequent showings in Tchalla's early Avenger appearances showed signs of inventive genius it was during this time that the gulf between scientific inventions began to widen. There were almost no scientific inventions of notice during McGregor's  Panther's Rage, Panther vs. the Klan, Panther's Quest and Panther's Prey; nothing in Kirby's Black Panther series or Gillis' four issue limited series.

This chasm of non scientific genius arguably spans from 1971 to 1998. Unfortunately this not only holds true for Tchalla but for Wakanda as well. However during this same time period the pages of the Fantastic Four, Iron Man and where ever Dr Doom appeared are littered with great scientific achievements and advancements. It wasn't until Priest in 1998 that Tchalla became three steps ahead of his friends and enemies and not til Hudlin in 2005 that Wakanda became the unconquered nation.

Another challenge is how Tchalla does in direct competition with Reed, Tony and Victor. In regards to standard equipment, with their armors, both Iron Man and Dr Doom are far better prepared with a much greater range of protection, offensive and defensive capabilities, multiple environs and transportation than the Black Panther. If it weren't for Priest and Hickman (yes I said Hickman) the Black Panther would be little more than Liss' Man Without Fear. Notice I inferred Daredevil and not Batman, the latter to whom has constant upgrades, almost always saves himself and consistently has his own transportation.

Tchalla (and Wakanda) has been taking Ls from Victor since their inaugural meeting in  Astonishing Tales. Hudlin himself delivered one of the Black Panther's greatest defeats by Dr Doom, contradicting a previous prep upgrade he gave Tchalla in the light armor. Even McDuffie had to mention that Tchalla borrowed the idea of the cosmic ray harness from Victor. Dr Doom invents a time machine, the Black Panther has two stolen temperamental, temporal crossing frogs. Reed discovered the consistently used and constantly referenced Negative Zone while Tchalla has the single use plot device Nowhere Room.

These and many other examples are what make it difficult for the Black Panther to be seen on par with Richards, Stark and Doom. Priest is the only writer who got it right. He consistently delivered (much to the chagrin of some fanboys) a Black Panther that could be seen on the same level and in some cases exceeding said levels of Reed, Tony and Victor. Priest's secret lied in not just demonstrating the scientific intellectual ability of Tchalla but in accenting the shrewd and strategic manipulation he employed by mastering the psychology of others, due to his paramount motivation of preserving Wakanda at all cost.

Thanks for this brilliantly revealing post Ture.  8)


Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

One of the realest posts on the subject of Shuri that I've seen in this thread so far.

It's like some cats have lost their damned minds up in here on some straight up misogynistic ish and don't even realise it. :smh:


You're very welcome. Much appreciation and humble gratitude for the kind words Brother Sal.



Double triple and quadruple bravo.

But let us give RH the tech props of specifically mentioning and showing Wakanda's space program, specifically out tech'ing Namor since the times of Azziri the Wise, yes the aforementioned Light Armor, cho[ping Tony out of his armor, having OUR Ororo backing Tony down at HER Wakandan Embassy, and pretty mjuch every second of his run leading up to Doom nearly killing TChalla... and every second after the Doom thing. Including showing the interplay between Ramonda and Shuri, including Ororo making sure that Shuri gets the shot at BP and Shuri stepping up humongously, etc.
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2391 on: April 29, 2015, 07:55:31 am »
Thanks for the kind words brothers Daoud and Supreme.

Quote
Call it whatever you want. I'm glad she is dead. My only hope is that when the Marvel Universe is rebooted T'Challa is back as the only heir to the throne of T'Chaka as Kirby intended it. Jack Kirby the jew that fathered the Black Panther legend.    Francisco


Let us not forget the Afrakan (so called African American) who grandfathered the Black Panther, Orrin Cromwell Evans.





Quote
But let us give RH the tech props of specifically mentioning and showing Wakanda's space program, specifically out tech'ing Namor since the times of Azziri the Wise, yes the aforementioned Light Armor, cho[ping Tony out of his armor, having OUR Ororo backing Tony down at HER Wakandan Embassy, and pretty mjuch every second of his run leading up to Doom nearly killing TChalla... and every second after the Doom thing. Including showing the interplay between Ramonda and Shuri, including Ororo making sure that Shuri gets the shot at BP and Shuri stepping up humongously, etc.    Supreme


No doubt there Supreme. Hudlin gave both the continental and diasporac Afrakans a culturally relevant voice in the pages of Black Panther; not to mention his Who is the Black Panther is the best retelling of the origin story. Hudlin had enough foresight to flesh out the threat facing Wakanda. He gave it more scale. Compare Kirby's Klaw and a handful of mercenaries to Hudlin's Klaw being backed by another nation armed forces, three meta humans and two highly trained assassins.

However here in lies the conundrum. If the Black Panther legacy is as formidable as we are led to believe, how do you kill one? How does the world's most technologically advanced nation get invaded? No iteration of Klaw thus far comes close to accomplishing such a feat. By all logic Azzuri and T'Chaka should still be alive. For all their advancement there isn't even a hint that Wakandans are longed lived.  The complexity of the Black Panther character requires writers and editors who subscribe to detail.

Again Hudlin touched on this but a lot more work has to be done to consistently qualify the Black Panther as the Most Dangerous Man Alive. If Marvel Cinema is seriously considering Ernie Hudson as T'chaka then I have some serious reservations about the direction the BP movie is headed. For that to have any serious chance at success they would have to make Chadwick Boseman's Tchalla the discoverer of the heart shaped herb and the first Black Panther.

So before one gives Tchalla away "so to be educated abroad at some of the finest universities in Europe and the USA " remember Wakanda's education programs should be among the best in the world. Besides I've yet to hear Richards, Stark, Doom, Banner, Pym, McCoy, Cho, agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. , Hydra, A.I.M. lauding any Afrakan institutions of higher learning.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 09:28:03 pm by Ture »
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Offline Francisco

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2392 on: April 29, 2015, 08:42:55 am »
Wakandans are normal humans. They are not gods they're not perfect and they can be prey of hubris like many other great civilizations of the past. Wakanda was never supposed to be invincible neither is the Black Panther (because that would be boring). T'Chaka needed to die for T'Challa to become king and to avenge his father. It is all part of the narrative. Those guys haven't acknowledged any higher learning institutions from Africa because in the real world there are none (of prestige) and in the Marvel Universe Wakanda is supposed to be an isolationist nation. Few or perhaps none foreigners are accepted in their educational institutions.


By the way no one grandfathered anything T'Challa belongs to the mind of Jack Kirby with some contribution from Stan Lee, 2 jews. Marvel is a publisher owned by white people. T'Challa was created by whites and owned by whites. He's part of a larger universe with other characters whom also happen to be smart and powerful. He can't school them all and win all the time. When he loses it doesn't mean that white writers are racists and want to see him down and humiliated. It just means he's not an A-lister and that he is part of a larger universe with characters who are more relevant than he is.

How would I  write T'Challa and Wakanda? T'Challa is a warrior but he is also and intellectual a genius. There's no reason for him to scuffle with Captain America, Dare Devil and/or The Wolverine. Those are guys he should disable by pressing a button. Yeah from time to time he could exchange some punches to release some steam. But it should always end with those guys falling down to T'Challa's superior mind. Now against guys like Von Doom and Stark things are different. Those guys are as smart or smarter than T'Challa. Their tech could also be marginally better but different from them T'Challa is a warrior a general he's got the mind of a military tactician and despite having a minuscule technological disadvantage he is willing to do things those 2 wouldn't even consider.


I'm comfortable with the idea that T'Challa is the first Black Panther to bring advanced technology (super science) to Wakanda and that he had access to higher education in America and Europe. That doesn't detract at all from the myth the same way it doesn't detract from the accomplishments of real life scientific heroes like Cornel West and Neil deGrasse Tyson. The nature of the Black Panther is mystical like the ninjas from Japan or the ancient Masai warriors of Kenya. If the Wakandans were so "friggin" advanced yet allowed the continent to be ravaged by europeans and arabs, then they are villains no matter how you juggle it. It is better when it is established that Wakanda's survival was the result of guile/good leadership and not superior fire power. They just outsmarted an enemy they couldn't beat. Wakanda is the most technologically advanced nation in the planet now in the 21 the century thanks To T'Challa the Black Panther.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 09:36:19 am by Francisco »
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2393 on: April 29, 2015, 11:58:50 am »
Wakandans being "normal humans" depends on how one defines normal humans. While they are not gods nor perfect (because Thor and company demonstrate the fallacy of gods being seen as perfect) and yes can fall prey to hubris, the fact remains that they have been inconsistently portrayed.

Don't confuse Wakanda's unconquered status with one of invincibility. If the Black Panther is a legacy then it absolutely not necessary for T'Chaka to die for Tchalla to become Black Panther. Killmonger did it. Shuri did it. Technically Tchalla did it with his uncle S'Yan.

The challenge lies in the narrative itself. The slaying of a parent isn't the impetus and motivation for becoming a Black Panther; being the best at protecting and leading Wakanda is.

Again this is comic books. If a writer had a mind to there could be dozens, hundreds of universities, think tanks, scientific and technological institutions and organizations showcased through out Afraka. Might give the real world something to aspire to.

If Wakanda is so isolationist why would they risk contamination by sending their best and brightest to study abroad? Again another problem with the narrative.

Paternity results pending, Tchalla the Black Panther is indeed credited to the Lee and Kirby. Tchalla the Black Panther is indeed the legal proerty of Marvel. As far as being created in terms of original concept and acrediting Tchalla the Black Panther to whites... that may be analogous to crediting the creation and construction of the Meru (so called pyramids) to that land's most visible and current inhabitants.

The problem with Tchalla studying abroad lies in the writer. If the writer views Tchalla's university years immersed in studying and complaining about tests, skateboarding, getting high, rhyming, tagging, getting inked, playing sports and dating white girls then they're missing the point. With regards to Cornel West and Neil deGrasse Tyson, Tchalla should follow their example as they both studied and earned their respective intellectual acclaim in the land of their birth.

Quote
If the Wakandans were so "friggin" advanced yet allowed the continent to be ravaged by europeans and arabs,     Francisco

Yet...

Quote
Wakandans are normal humans. They are not gods they're not perfect and they can be prey of hubris like many other great civilizations of the past. Wakanda was never supposed to be invincible neither is the Black Panther.  It is all part of the narrative.     Francisco

Four words...



Again it comes down to the writer (and of course the editors and parent company etc.) and how they choose to view an autonomous Afrakan people. The logical narrative for Wakanda of course would have been to secure all of continental and diasporac Afraka.
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Offline Kimoyo

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2394 on: April 29, 2015, 04:25:07 pm »
Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Beat me to it Brother Ture!  This couldn't have been said any better!

Peace,

Mont

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2395 on: April 29, 2015, 04:47:57 pm »
Shuri's is one of the most important contributions not only to the Black Panther franchise but the comic book industry itself; as such, her creation should not be called into question. It wasn't Shuri who took anything from Tchalla, it was Maberry, Arron, Hickman and if I'm being honest Hudlin.
 
Shuri is unique among so called black characters. Unlike Storm who was created to be a so-called minority character, designed to help diversify a predominately white male team while simultaneously morphing into a white fanboy's fetish symbol; Shuri represented a sovereign cultural integrity exemplified by royal familial bonds that gave Afrakan women and girls a heroine to identify with.

Unfortunately Ororo was a cultural time bomb ready for detonation the moment she came in proximity to any other Afrakan (so called Black). Reggie's attempts to defuse Storm were undermined once he stopped writing her. However it was under Hudlin (and the artists with him during much of his tenure) that Shuri  (and the re-imaged Dora Milaje) helped to redefine and promote an often under valued aesthetic.  Shuri came to epitomize not only the warrior but responsible ruler-ship, a true Black Panther.

For all the lip service paid to such concepts as diversity and so called minority representation it seems natural to have a Shuri, Queen Divine Justice and Dora Milaje as much as a Ororo, Monet St Croix and a Misty Knight.

Thus a more credible argument would be structured around the lack of detail in outlining Wakandan ascendancy to the throne and the consistency in maintaining such. A broader approach to that argument would be the fleshing out of the entirety of Wakandan society and culture.

Beat me to it Brother Ture!  This couldn't have been said any better!

Peace,

Mont

High praise indeed. Appreciate that Brother Kimoyo

And to keep this thread honest... here is a dose of Hickman courtesy of CBR's Biclopcicle .

Quote
Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*
First Scene:
we get the flashback of where Tony meets with Cap to try and make amends (this is after Cap remembers being mindwiped and after Tony was inverted during Axis). Tamara, Captain Universe is a waitress at the diner and is serving them. Tony "promises" cap that there is a solution to the Incursion problem. Capt Universe gets angry and lashes out because she knows that Tony is lying- he doesn't really believe there is a solution to the incursion problem. The Avengers Machine was all a smokescreen to occupy the worlds heroes as they all tumbled to their doom. Tony escapes before Cap can really do much of anything

Second Scene:
The galactic fleet is headed towards earth and about to wax it. The Rogue planet shifts phase with the earth to protect it and Tony turns on Sol's Hammer and almost completely vaporizes the galactic fleet. Sol's hammer breaks down in the process but Tony survives as he activates his suit helmet.

Third Scene (Earth 1610):
Maker has called Fury and Hawkeye to the City to discuss the incursions. Fury is incredulous, but he meets the Cabal, they tell him they're from another universe. To further help Fury understand, City uproots itself so that Fury can witness the incusion firsthand...

Fourth Scene back to 616:
Tchalla meets with the president and basically tells him the end of the world is here and there's nothing that can be done about it. He also throws in a jab about how the world's powers let the cabal destroy Wakanda

5th Scene (1610):
-They see the incursion. Thanos tells them its 616 and "the greatest heroes you have ever seen" are there. They plan a full-out assault...

Fast forward a few hrs to the time of the final incursion and the CAbal are plotting something sinister (naturally) but it isn't quite clear. They're definitely using Fury...

meanwhile Fury rallies the troops and SHIELD gets ready for the final incursion

6th Scene (616)
-at the BAxter Building, the Illuminati and SHIELd avengers are planning whos gonna go in the life raft. They agree that Tony has become something different and he can't be trusted on the raft. And then Rogers goes to take him out.

7th Scene:
-Cap is in modified War Machine armor and confronts Tony. They have a monster brawl. Rogers basically wants Tony to admit what Captain Universe said was true- that the Avengers Machine was all a smokescreen and Tony lied about its creation. He beats down Tony,(who catches the shield in his face!) and gets him to admit that to be the case. But then tony rebuts with that he wouldnt have done it any differently. Blasts Rogers in the face and .... a helicarrier falls on them!

« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 06:06:50 am by Ture »
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2396 on: April 30, 2015, 01:57:07 pm »
So basically Cap and Iron Man die fighting like two year olds over hurt feelings. 

Other spoilers. ...

Hickman apparently had Doom fail miserably then kills him along with Doctor Strange.

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2397 on: April 30, 2015, 11:42:02 pm »
So basically Cap and Iron Man die fighting like two year olds over hurt feelings. 

Other spoilers. ...

Hickman apparently had Doom fail miserably then kills him along with Doctor Strange.

I bought both books. We don't see either man dies, as their battle is not conclusive and is...shall we say...DWARFED by the serious arrival of new foes at the last pages of the book.

And yeah DOOM, STRANGE and MOLECULE MAN challenge The Beyonders with...crazy power unleashing on the last page.

I reserve my personal final judgement regarding the fate of the characters until I see...the actual end fate of the characters in this story.
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2398 on: May 01, 2015, 06:10:27 am »
A panel discussion set up as a clash of ideologies between left-leaning Mark Waid and the conservative Bill Willingham on a full range of topics vital the future of the medium... here is the Black Panther related part

"Are white, hetero male writers done?"

"It's a real thorny one," Waid began hesitatingly. He discussed talking about Black Panther at Marvel. "We were all sitting around talking about what we love about Black Panther, a room full of writers, and how that character really deserves his own book again. And I'm sure he'll have it again. I was the one most passionate about what was cool about Black Panther. I wasn't campaigning for the gig, but at the end of my speech, somebody said, 'Man, I wish you were black. In the sense of, 'then we'd give you the book.'" Waid, clearly uncomfortable telling the story, continued. "But I understood it, I didn't take umbrage at, 'what, I'm not allowed to write this book because I'm white?' I actually think, with a character like that, you should either not publish it or hold off until you've found the right voice with the right passion for it and most likely it's going to be an African American. I understood that. That is not the same as to say, 'always look at their ethnicity first and their talent second.' These are apples and oranges, in my opinion. But more and more, you are having to look at both."

Willingham referred to a campaign of "messages to straight white men" at this year's Association of Writers and Writing Programs conference, in which writers of various ethnicities held up signs with disparaging messages like "Sit down and let us abolish you." "I'm getting older, so I will sit down often. I don't want to let you abolish me, and I don't think that by continuing to tell stories from whatever my perspective is is not in any way harming your ability to tell stories in any way you want, too."

But, he said, "I think it's absolutely fine" to publish anthologies united by gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and soforth. "If I'm publishing an anthology of emerging black writers, it is entirely correct to refuse a white writer, no matter how good."

Willingham said, though, that he does object to a "bean-counting" approach of having to have certain types of writers for certain kinds of projects. He did say the best talent should win out, but "to my knowledge I have not been denied work because I'm the wrong color."

The full article is here.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/c2e2-waid-and-willingham-attempt-to-fix-comics
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Offline Ture

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Re: New Avengers, New Black Panther, New Black Power???
« Reply #2399 on: May 01, 2015, 07:17:33 pm »
"CIVIL WAR" AMIDST MARVEL'S "SECRET WARS"



Tchalla's seen too much of late to have his eyes opened that wide.  :-[ However the art is nice.

Full story here.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/soule-discusses-inciting-a-civil-war-amidst-marvels-secret-wars
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 07:54:50 am by Ture »
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