Author Topic: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...  (Read 20270 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 10:28:54 pm »
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

Furthermore,I don't understand your contention that "it's just a comic book" is an EXCUSE.Lovecrafty.IT...IS...JUST...A...COMIC...BOOK.There is no escaping that central fact.You can expect certain things when you purchase a comic book for 3 bucks,but what you SHOULDN'T expect is for it NOT TO BE A COMIC BOOK.That...to use your own term...would be very VERY "kooky" indeed,lol.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 11:54:22 am by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2006, 10:45:58 pm »
I await your reply...
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Offline Wise Son

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2006, 02:59:40 am »
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.
Wakanda has shown previous interest in the outside world, and it's entirely plausible that it's inquisitive and daring people were directed into the fields of espionage and surveillance of the outside world. As for expansion, as I said, you could go for a No-Prize that previous Panthers had policies of population control in place in order to remove the need for expansion - T'Challa's a good king, but I can accept that previous kings were not.
Basically we have to accept the idea that .....-- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture. 
We know that Wakanda has never been conquered, and has been isolationist for more than a thousand years, but we don't know for sure that they have no history of peaceful interaction with the outside world, and it's never been explicitly stated whether there was a specific event that caused their isolationism. It could be that something happened that was significant enough to keep them isolated for so long. For instance, we've seen that their Panther God manifests in an undeniable way (if I lived in the DC or Marvel Universe, I wouldn't be an agnostic, I just wouldn't know which of the hundreds of Gods I've seen on the news to worship), so perhaps there was an explicit, holy ban. That would surely qualify as a suitably fantastic explanation.
And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.
Well, I don't think anyone's argued against Wakanda being a utopian ideal. I guess the question you're asking is, 'is this what people would be like if they actually did live in such a utopia?'
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.
Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.
 
Which is part of the reason we've had a few depictions of their day-to-day life, with hopefully more to come. And Hudlin's version is a necessary change from the version you could give to 10-year-olds. How could a 'typical nation' resist the same tidal wave of colonialism that swept Africa? To have done so, and to have never been conquered in the past, would have required more than just being a 'nation of badasses', it would require something fantastic, a hyper-advanced culture. Considering Lee and Kirby's original was just as far-fetched, and doesn't even stand up on it's own fantastic feet, at least we have an interpretation that is internally consistent now.
Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.
As you say, the lack of interest in Wakanda's history in the past makes it far more malleable now. Also, if Hudlin makes us believe that T'Challa is worthy of being the leader of this great country, especially at a time where it faces challenges it never previously has, T'Challa's stature as a leader and as a hero is perhaps raised higher than it ever has been before. The stakes are high.

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Offline sinjection

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 05:55:51 am »
Wow! It's BRIGHT in here! Well Illuminated, I'd say.  ;)

I see what I'll be doing from now until mid-to-late February '07.

Happy Holidays, everyone! That includes the "everybodies", too  :D

Be Safe!

Peace  :)
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2006, 06:49:31 am »
i love you guys.

this is some serious knowledge flyin' around!


Listen to my entertaining radio show, "The Takeover: Top 20 Countdown" at www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com.

Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 09:05:32 am »
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.
Wakanda has shown previous interest in the outside world, and it's entirely plausible that it's inquisitive and daring people were directed into the fields of espionage and surveillance of the outside world. As for expansion, as I said, you could go for a No-Prize that previous Panthers had policies of population control in place in order to remove the need for expansion - T'Challa's a good king, but I can accept that previous kings were not.
Basically we have to accept the idea that .....-- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture. 
We know that Wakanda has never been conquered, and has been isolationist for more than a thousand years, but we don't know for sure that they have no history of peaceful interaction with the outside world, and it's never been explicitly stated whether there was a specific event that caused their isolationism. It could be that something happened that was significant enough to keep them isolated for so long. For instance, we've seen that their Panther God manifests in an undeniable way (if I lived in the DC or Marvel Universe, I wouldn't be an agnostic, I just wouldn't know which of the hundreds of Gods I've seen on the news to worship), so perhaps there was an explicit, holy ban. That would surely qualify as a suitably fantastic explanation.
And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.
Well, I don't think anyone's argued against Wakanda being a utopian ideal. I guess the question you're asking is, 'is this what people would be like if they actually did live in such a utopia?'
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.
Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.
 
Which is part of the reason we've had a few depictions of their day-to-day life, with hopefully more to come. And Hudlin's version is a necessary change from the version you could give to 10-year-olds. How could a 'typical nation' resist the same tidal wave of colonialism that swept Africa? To have done so, and to have never been conquered in the past, would have required more than just being a 'nation of badasses', it would require something fantastic, a hyper-advanced culture. Considering Lee and Kirby's original was just as far-fetched, and doesn't even stand up on it's own fantastic feet, at least we have an interpretation that is internally consistent now.
Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.
As you say, the lack of interest in Wakanda's history in the past makes it far more malleable now. Also, if Hudlin makes us believe that T'Challa is worthy of being the leader of this great country, especially at a time where it faces challenges it never previously has, T'Challa's stature as a leader and as a hero is perhaps raised higher than it ever has been before. The stakes are high.
Wow! It's BRIGHT in here! Well Illuminated, I'd say. ;)

I see what I'll be doing from now until mid-to-late February '07.

Happy Holidays, everyone! That includes the "everybodies", too :D

Be Safe!

Peace :)


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i love you guys.

 


Much love and thanks you guys,we all appreciate it.I was beginning to think that the rest of the site would avoid this thread like the plague,lol...
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 09:31:26 am »
Another very interesting post by our friend lovecrafty lifted from the Vision thread sticky at the top of this page,and a SUPREMELY ILLUMINATING response.You will enjoy this one and find it to be an important facet to this discussion.Lovecrafty,if you would please respond to the posts I made on this page,the previous page,this new post right now,and Wise Son's most recent post as a whole...even if it takes several posts to do so...I would appreciate that.In this manner we may get a more accurate,more comprehensive understanding of your positions and your concerns...



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     Re: The Vision.
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 11:55:27 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 04:32:53 AM
Quote
The fist six issues will essentially be my versions of what the BLACK PANTHER MOVIE should be. But no matter what happens with the movie, or if the movie ever happens, there will be a TPB that people can pick up and see the character done right. No matter how horrible the Joels Schumacher Batman movies are, they cannot erase the greatness of The Dark Knight Returns or Batman: Year one. Hopefully, this book will do the same for T'challa.

This right here is the sole reason I don't like Hudlin's run.  Marvel is not DC.  Marvel continuity is a fairly smooth line from the silver age to the modern age.  There has never been a reboot of the entire Marvel universe.  Marvel does not do Year One stories, because Marvel's Year One was 1962.

Look at the two stories Hudlin cites: The Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One.  Both are DC titles, not Marvel titles.  DKR is set out of continuity and is not part of the official, canon Batman story.  It is essentially an Elseworld book (that came out before DC invented the Elseworlds line).  Batman: Year One followed Crises on Infinite Earths and was part of a company wide reboot of the DC line.  DC's continuity had become so confused that it needed to be rebooted.

When Frank Miller wanted to rewrite Daredevil's origins, Marvel wouldn't let him.  He managed to write Man Without Fear and tell a different, more complex and deeper version of the origin that doesn't completely contradict the original story (there are some slight differences, but nothing on the scale that Hudlin has done).  I don't see why Hudlin couldn't have achieved all of the goals he listed and still respected the work that Lee and Kirby did.  I don't see why he had to tell a new origin story that contradicts the original origin story -- which happens to still be in continuity!  He could have introduced all these ideas as retcons without signifigantly altering the original stories, and then there wouldn't be this huge problem of two conflicting stories of the same event.


Well,lovecrafty,if this is the sole reason that you dislike Hudlin's run,then I have to remonstrate with you...as you have made other statements indicating that you dislike Hudlin's run because of BP's invincibility and other things.You seem to be either shifting your justifications as to why you dislike HUDLIN's run,but you seem to always be returning to the fact that you dislike Hudlin's run.Almost as if you are searching for reasons to CONTINUE to dislike Hudlin's run as each of your own avowed reasons get shot down.

For instance,Marvel has precedence for what rewriting/rectifying origins,as cited in this very pitch that RH wrote.Didn't you read this pitch? Or did you scan it looking for a reason to cry:"Foul"? Lee/Kirby retold SILVER SURFER without the FF in the 70s.Now,that right there is the ULTIMATE sanction for RH's actions,and even if it wasn't done BP has been so horribly written that the character DESPERATELY NEEDED what RH and PRIEST have done.STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY--the most iconic of icons in the whole history of Marvel,the leaders and trendsetters and tone makers--did what you said Marvel doesn't do.How can you jsutify that in even the most minute fashion? One can argue that for quite some time,STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY WERE MARVEL PERSONIFIED.To me,that annihilates any aspersions against RH doing what Lee/Kirby did when all RH did was follow in the footsteps of these hallowed legends about 30 years later.From this perspective,slamming RH for his actions is either the epitome of literal ignorance (as in the RH haters literally don't know what they're talking about) or it smacks of racism and/or a stupidity so extreme that it is odious.

Puts me in mind of that CAPTAIN AMERICA fan who attempted to assault me at the comic book shop...
 
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 09:34:44 am »
Taken from pg.13 of Jenn's thread,another post (the one I waas referring to on page one) which lovecrafty overlooked somehow or failed to respond to...



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     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #181 on: December 18, 2006, 08:04:11 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Jenn on December 18, 2006, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
And as a white guy who cites "Soul on Ice" as one of the most important books he's ever read...

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Sorry, y'all. I had to do it. HAD to!

AHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!


Quote from: Vic Vega on December 18, 2006, 09:39:59 AM
Good God.

I stay away from the internet for a couple of days any look what happens... 

It's my fault, Vega. Next time I come home, I'll close the gate behind me.

More fun with ol' lovecrafty here:

I'm not normally one for race-baiting, but considering who you are, I suspect that the sole reason you like this storyline is because Reggie Hudlin calls anyone who disagrees with him a racist, and that makes a crazy little bigot like you all moist.

I mean if you're going to make it so obvious that you are black, and shout "I'M BLACK!!!" from every rooftop, you should try to be more of a credit to your people.

I'm just saying, if you don't want people to see you that way, maybe you should try to develop an actual personality, rather than simply being an internet paraody of an angry black woman.

lol. Her hatred of white people is pretty obvious. She may like you, you're a "good cracker" I'm sure, but I'm willing to bet she doesn't like you or trust you nearly as much as you think..

I already have several black friends who have told me I'm more "down" than they are, so my liberal white guilt is assuaged-- just as I'm sure yours is by the fact that you get to be angry black woman's special white friend.

No, Jenn doesn't like me because she's a racist and I'm a white guy who believes in racial harmony (and consider MLK Jr. a hero, something which prompted her to call me an idiot, MLK Jr. a retard, and racial harmony bullsh*t in a previous conversation).

(Sadly, when asked for proof of this conversation, LC had to admit that he just made that part up.)

But sure, he's not here to troll at all! He is totally interested in discussion! And black people LOVE him, especially with statements like that!



EDIT: THIS POST WAS WRITTEN SUBSEQUENT TO THE POST I HAVE QUOTED AND PRIOR TO THE POSTS ON PAGE 12 THAT FOLLOW THE POST OF LOVECRAFTY'S THAT I HAVE QUOTED.UNFORTUNATELY,MY POST DIDN'T ACTUALLY POST ONSITE UNTIL NOW...

I very much look forward to continuing my conversation with you as well,lovecrafty...this is reminiscent of the talks and debates I have had with my friends whom major in history and archeology and economics,anthropology and the various related sciences...including logic. I enjoy them.

However,before we go any further,I feel constrained to strenuously recall to you that civility is a REQUIREMENT here,and that none of us--not even you or Jenn--could in any way possibly benefit from the recreation of an environment similar to that which you and Jenn both have acknowledged is prevalent whenever you two discuss issues on LiveJournal.I am not the Admin and I don't presume to speak for the Admin or moderator here--both of whom are possessed of formidable intellect and command of the language,making them far more capable of speaking for themselves than I ever could should I make the arrogant presumption to do so--but based upon what they have both strenuously stated,flaming will not be tolerated.By anyone.Our very own Mistress of Mayhem Jenn may be possessed of a flare for sarcasm,but she has not flamed you on this thread to my knowledge...she simply supplied links to some of your more controversial statements,and "rubbed it in" with her blade-like verbal thrusts.You allowed your irritation to overcome your calm and poise and reason,and you began to vent upon her by calling her a nutjob,prior to regaining your sense of equilibrium and indicating thatyou "do make an effort to learn,understand,and appreciate other people." <--That is laudable,the last part of your quote.The former is not...and I feel,sir,that regardless of your dislike of Jenn,that you could have approached the matter with more aplomb,more discipline,more logic,more taste...and that you overstepped those boundaries with your response.

Which immediately brings to mind two points which are directly applicable not only to this instance,but which could give you the tiniest modicum of appreciation of what RH has had to endure from countless fans for more than a year now:

Jenn's links to your quotes enflamed your passions to the extent that you made the posts that you have...both here and on LiveJournal.Now imagine that there are hundreds of posts aimed at you from numerous different sites,most of which come from people whom acknowledge at some point that they never actually read your quotes to begin with,and were thus responding out of the abysmal ignorance that comes from netgeeks whom are swayed by the opinions of other netgeeks.Would it not stand to reason that perhaps your irritation would increase proportionately with the ignorance and venom thus espoused? Reginald Hudlin had to deal with that for more than a year...and he usually responded with his own screen name,thus baring himself for all to see (and deliberately misquote him). Because of his public profile and some professional concerns,he is not allowed to have the freedom that these most ignorant of netgeeks have to gleefully fling about the most preposterous accusations and howls of protest that aren't ennobled by even the most minute approximation of fact and truth. I submit to you,lovecrafty,that if you came to this site partially to determine if your good name was slandered,and/or that your quotes were being twisted and taken out of context only to happily discover that your fears are unrealized,imagine how irritating it would be to arrive at a site only to have your fears and irritation magnified because the situation was many times worse than you feared it might be? I can give you my word as I have witnessed this evidence with my own eyes,and I rue the fact that the old HEF board was hacked,because there were many links on that board that proved exactly this point.Judging by the increasingly short and acidic remarks that you have made toward Jenn,your tolerance for verbally jousting with her has gotten lower and lower as the two of you continued to dance with each other...even to the extent of making the illadvised post that I have quoted above.Now imagine how short of temper you would be if there were 100s of "Jenns" out there defaming both you and your work...but at least our Jenn has the nerve to gird her verbal weaponry with facts and links.These "other" Jenn's feel no need to bother with nonessentials like facts,links,nor any form of empirical data like reading the book that they are slamming.

The above facts lead directly to my second edifying point,which is: you would get fed up with the b.s.Each and every one of us would.And you would strike back...with less and less willingness to explain to those whom have shown that their outrage ultimately has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHARACTER OR THE WRITER.These frothing fanboys were nowhere to be seen or heard when BP was regularly being treated as a third rate Affirmative Action brownie point.they came out of the woodworks with invectives and expletives when PRIEST returned him to the BP that STAN and KIRBY introduced to the world in FF#52...and they went completely and utterly mad at RH  when he had BP defeat CAPTAIN AMERICA,and then decapitate SABERTOOTH in the House of M thing.Again,I give you my word that this is the case,and although we don't know each other,I can assure you that my word and my good name is as dear to me as yours is to you...I do not lightly invoke either.And all of this is by way of simply explaining WHY our RH went to the lengths that he has with the answers he has given.After dealing with hundreds of ignoramuses whom are only vested in slamming BP because he is "too powerful" and is now defeating their favorite heroes,you start dishing out what you're getting.If ignorant fanboys start to knuckle up,you chin check them.And that's what RH did.

Reginald himself frequently is online here.If you wish to know the truth of the matter about his opinions...SIMPLY ASK THE MAN.He will respond.And then you have to ask yourself...whom would you think is the ultimate authority on what RH thinks.You or him? If he flatly denies the accuracty of your recollection,and then clarifies what he said and/or meant...would you be willing to drop your previous opinion? Or would you cling to that opinion,which would be based upon something that you don't rightly recall and which the author of the quote that you don't rightly recall not only refutes but corrects? It's something to think about...

Lovecrafty,whether or not you agree with or like Jenn,you should apologize for the content of a portion of your previous post simply because it is inappropriate,and hopefully below your usual standards of behaviour.

At which point we can continue with our conversation,as I look forward to sharing with you a few historical facts that are of the first importance and that would shed a great deal of light on the matter of Wakanda and other issues of mutual interest.I look forward to it...

Yours,

The Ever Civil,The Ever Logical...


   SUPREME ILLUMINATI
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 08:07:04 PM by supreme illuminati » 
 
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 12:31:54 pm »
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2006, 01:04:13 pm »
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 

Who didn't see this coming?

Offline Mastrmynd

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2006, 01:22:35 pm »
this was a short topic.

so.... what do we now?

parchesi anyone?


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Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2006, 01:48:08 pm »
Who didn't see this coming?

Don't get me wrong.  This conversation as given me a lot to think about, and has been very interesting, but at the end of the day historians who attempt to describe history as a struggle between "whites" and "blacks" are indulging in racism, and I'm not interested in that sort of history.  That sort of history is part of the systematic revision of my own people's history -- the very concept of "whiteness" was invented to delude people like mine, the Scots, into thinking that the gains of "white people" (ie. Anglo-Saxxons, not Celts) were "their" gains while Celtic culture, language, and history was destroyed.

Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.  The very concept of "black" and "white" didn't exist until 17th century (in the 16th century, the first visions of racism were an attempt to explain why Anglo-Saxxon culture had conquered and suppressed Celtic-Gaullic culture), and the attempt to portray history as a struggle between whites and blacks is simply not accurate, it's an attempt to project rather noxious modern ideas into a past where they did not exist.

The fact of the matter is that people are people, and people are all the same.  Whether they are African, European, Asian, or American (meaning first peoples, not citizens of the USA), the only meaningful differences are cultural.  Because of this, all human socities show patterns.  Socities that are progressive -- that are developing new technologies -- are expansive, domineering, conquering societies, imposing their progressive worldview on neighboring socities.  And expansive, domineering socities inevitabley become soft and complacent and collapse into decadence.  The whole of human history works like.  Just like mankind started in Africa and spread out across the world, the progressive leading edge of civilization began in Africa, move into Eurasia, and then split into two locii of civilization, one Eastern and one Western.  The Western locii moved from Ethiopia, to Egypt, to Rome, to Franco-Germany, to England, then America.  America in turn has been in a steady state of decline, and the progressive edge is moving into the "Third World".

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2006, 02:02:40 pm »
Quote
Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.

I can tell you haven't read much african hsitory. that's ok supreme will illuminate you :D

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2006, 02:11:51 pm »
As for the historical examples that I cited,I pointed out the historical empires of Africa starting with Menes' rule and then again I mentioned that this pattern was echoed in almost every Black state since.Furthermore,to keep the issue centered on RH's BP,I cited his works that refute several of your contentions rather squarely,and emphasize the unwisdom of debating a point when you don't have the dominant facts available.You don't have the dominant facts available or else you wouldn't've made the contentions that you have which the book itself flatly contradicts PRIOR to your making the post here with the false contentions.I don't know how to make a more powerful historical reference if it referring to THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF A CIVILIZATION is somehow and magically not a historical reference,lol.

I guess this conversation is over then, because you are a citing a work that strikes me as racist nonsense, but I'm not really interested in getting into an argument about afrocentrism with people who are strongly invested in that idea. 

lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.This treatment lasted hundreds of years for Europeans,nearly a thousand years when White Arabic aggression is added to the mix.Unless you would care to dispute the authenticity of the slave trade itself,then you must concede this point.Why is this important? Because it gives a historical framework for Wakanda's actions: the xenophobia,the advanced science,the population control,the unequaled military power,and the injunction against expansion,as Wakanda would seek to prevent enemies from finding them or even thinking much about them if at all possible,and then exterminate any attempt to subjugate them with the most extreme prejudice,leaving only one person alive to tell the tale (as RH himself put it in the sticky called THE VISION at the top of this page) warning against trying to mess with the Wakandans.Again,the wisdom of this policy is evidenced not only by the singular achievement of never being conquered or compromised in their entire history,but also by instances both fictional and factual: the fictional being the events as Namor told TChalla that TChalla's grandfather and father foresaw in BP #21 (which you never read,and thus didn't know that your concerns on this matter had already been addressed within the run) which ranged from WW II to Namor's attacks on the surface world and every salient event leading to the Civil War,as well as the return of slavery to Namibia and the Sudan in the real world.There is no arguing with the rigorousness of the policy that Wakanda established for itself--EXACTLY AS STAN LEE AND KIRBY WANTED IT TO BE FAR BACK IN THE 60s WHEN THEY COULDN'T REMOTELY FORETELL THE EVENTS OF THE CURRENT DAY.So remonstrate with STAN LEE about the origins of the isolationist policy and why he created it...just be sure to point out that this same policy has been proven to be the wisest policy for Wakanda's survival and continued rapid upward development to this very day.So you may ignore with impunity the entire work of DR.CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS,and still be compelled by undeniable fact to reach the same conclusions as he did about the behaviour of the aggressors,and the behaviour of the aggressed upon.This is not a matter of "angry Black folks" or is it a matter of a scholar  spouting "racist nonsense" as you put it,nor is this an issue of afrocentrism.Isolaltionism is a very reasonable response to a situation like slavery,and this factual historical event is the ultimate sanction for such an action,as the actions of STAN LEE and KIRBY are the ultimate sanction for RH's stance.

EVen without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.

Fact: You opined in the "VISION" thread the following:

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 19, 2006, 04:32:53 AM
Quote
The fist six issues will essentially be my versions of what the BLACK PANTHER MOVIE should be. But no matter what happens with the movie, or if the movie ever happens, there will be a TPB that people can pick up and see the character done right. No matter how horrible the Joels Schumacher Batman movies are, they cannot erase the greatness of The Dark Knight Returns or Batman: Year one. Hopefully, this book will do the same for T'challa.

This right here is the sole reason I don't like Hudlin's run.  Marvel is not DC.  Marvel continuity is a fairly smooth line from the silver age to the modern age.  There has never been a reboot of the entire Marvel universe.  Marvel does not do Year One stories, because Marvel's Year One was 1962.


I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.

So,if you're halting this discussion purely because of your objection to DR. WILLIAMS' work and your contention that this is/may evolve into a debate/discussion of afrocentrism,accept my assurances to the contrary.We can jettison any mention of DR. WILLIAMS' work for the duration of  the discussion,and we can ban any mention of afrocentrism either directly or indirectly....and you STILL have quite a bit of work to do in answering the questions posed.

Please do so.If not,then one could very well be constrained to believe that the reasons you didn't respond boil down to one:

YOU DON'T HAVE A CONCRETE FACTUAL POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If you are of the opposite mindset,then please demonstrate this by presenting your arguments along with the empirical data that reenforces your position.I,for one,would be interested to see if such a position as yours can be defended and justified with compelling fact,as opposed to articulate opinion.I acknowledge your right to have and voice the latter,but to claim that you arrived to the latter by way of the former is an entirely different position that I for one have never seen borne out by objective fact or ennobled by logic.

I look forward to your reply...

EDIT:

as I attempted to post this,I became aware that lovecrafty and Mastermynd posted before me.I shall now include lovecrafty's post in this response:

"Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.  The very concept of "black" and "white" didn't exist until 17th century (in the 16th century, the first visions of racism were an attempt to explain why Anglo-Saxxon culture had conquered and suppressed Celtic-Gaullic culture), and the attempt to portray history as a struggle between whites and blacks is simply not accurate, it's an attempt to project rather noxious modern ideas into a past where they did not exist."

This is not REMOTELY what afrocentrism is.I am going to receive my Ph.d. in Afrocentrism,so please have a care as to what scholars you cite and how you define scholarly pursuits.The ACTUAL definiton of Afrocentrism is:"centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti,etc."  The purpopse of this branch of study is to literally undo the damage of Eurocentric "scholarship" with its assumption of European divinely given dominance,and to undo the damage that this policy has done to the minds and people of everyone everywhere.When we all are aware of the fact that there is no branch of the human family that exists that has not made significant contributions to the planet,then we will have more tolerant,more realistic,more fruitful,and less conflictful interactions amongst ourselves and with each other.Period.Have a care as to whom you speak about or for,especially when you don't have the relevant facts or information.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2006, 02:13:06 pm »
Quote
Afrocentric history requires one to acceptr the delusion that "white people" exist and have always existed, when this simply not the case.  It also requires one to accept the idea that "black people" exist, but that concept is equally fictious.

I can tell you haven't read much african hsitory. that's ok supreme will illuminate you :D

you are exactly correct,kitamu Re,and thank you very much for the props...
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
Sub my YouTube with the world's first and only viral "capoeira" gun disarm technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5F_qg2oFw