Author Topic: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...  (Read 20147 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Yo,Yaw,Wise Son,LovecraftyVic Vega,bluezulu,Curtis The Main Man Metcalf,and any other interested party...let us continue our discussion here and NOT pollute Jenn's thread with our talk.That's rude.Plus,Jenn ain't the Mistress of Mayhem for nothing,she'll mess around and pay a visit to us with a shottie,a MP-10,Lucia Rijker,the WNBA players,the Black GI JANE (call her GI TAMIKA,lol) and her crazy homegurl who climbed the fence to beat the holy bejabbers outta her drug-dealing boyfriend in tow.

So,get tuh postin and debating...CIVILLY.Thanx.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 05:29:07 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2006, 05:31:36 pm »
Just to bring us back up to speed,here's most of page 14 of Jenn's thread...

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      Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #195 on: Today at 07:27:36 AM » 

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Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to, but my keyboard broke last nigt (!?!) and I'm using my roommate's laptop, which makes long replies difficult.  I hope to have everything back to normal in a day or so, and will reply in greater length then.
This is a short reply?

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
The problem is that you've just cited four men from four entirely different countries seperated by vast distances in time.  What you're doing is comparing all of Europe, America and the Mediterranean to a small African nation.   None of the men you've mentioned could have made their discoveries without the discoveries of others, frequently from other cultures.  Western European scientists would have been lost without the accumulated knowledge of the Greeks, Romans, Phonecians, etc.  Newton could have never discovered his mathmatics without Arabic algebra.  It goes on and on.
This is assuming the Wakandans didn't a) Discover this for themselves, which is possible, and/or b) didn't have access to the same educational resources, through spies, or through capturing and examining explorers from the outside world.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
So, if we accept this as the case, then we're left with one inescable conclusion:  the Wakandans are not humans.  The simple fact is that no kingdom the size of Wakanda could produce so many geniuses in such a short period of time if the population was composed of normal humans.  This has nothing to do with race, but rather population size and density, and time.  People like Einstein and Newton occur only one out of every million people. 
A great many huge scientific advances come from non-geniuses discovering stuff by accident. Also, studying the history of science makes each discovery seem rather inevitable - a lot of Newton's discoveries were simultaneously discovered by other scientists. Newton did have the uncommon mind that allowed him to make connections others couldn't see, but those same discoveries would have been made eventually with or without him.
Also, you're obviously using '1 in a million' as an expression rather than a literal figure, but another little logic excercise to follow is: If Einstein or Newton had been raised in an environment that didn't give them access to mathematics and science, would they have made their discoveries? Obviously not. Using this principle, it becomes very likely that there are a great many potential geniuses out there and through history that never got the chance to use their talents. Genius is a large part luck, and I'm willing to accept that the Wakandans were lucky before I accept them being aliens.  If we presume Waknda was lucky in terms of resources and militarily strong, they could have created a society that allowed several potential geniuses to become actual geniuses, and give them the advances shown - from longbows to Kirby-weapons. And once an advance is made, it makes it more likely that the next advance will happen, and sooner.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
To achieve the level of sophistication that the Wakandans show in the 1800s, they would need a historical population much, much greater than than that of Europe, the Middle-East and America combined.  Additionally, they would need a society capable of supporting intellectuals.  This means they would need a large, industrial base of workers to provide the support structure necessary to free up the best and brightest to engage in exploration and discovery.  They would need an economy that was equivalent in scale to that of the European economy that gave rise to the Industrial Revolution.
Considering we can deal in 'plausible-fantasies', what about a communist-monarchy type society, where everyone works to the best of their abilities for the greater glory of the kingdom? Those that display intellectual gifts are channelled into those areas, and those that display more physically practical talents become workers. There is also the possibility of a certain amount of slave labour from captured invaders, but with Waknada's reputation, they'd probably be few and far between.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
Basically, if the Wakandans were as advanced as they are being portrayed, then they would have conquered the world a long, long time ago.  They would have had to, in order to fund the growth and development of their society.
To avoid using up all teir resources? Environmentally-friendly technology seem rather important to modern Wakandans, on a philosophical level, so perhaps they have always been consscious oftheir resources. If they observed the death of other great empires, they may have tried to identify what caused it (beyond 'the Gods were angered'), and tried to adapt their society to persevere.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
What Mr. Hudlin has done is create a society that defies all rational explanation, a society that simply cannot exist in the real world.  There is no possibility that we would ever find a small, isolated population group that was signifigantly more advanced than the most advanced nations in the world.
It seemed to work fine for the Atlanteans and Inhumans.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This is why Wakanda doesn't make sense.  If it's far in advance of the rest of the world, then it should be larger and more powerful than the rest of the world.
Not expanding means that thery can keep their need for resources more constant (possibly through som eform of population control - I don't think all of the previous kings were as ethical as T'Challa and his Dad), and they are more powerful than the rest of the World. They just don't feel the need to show it off.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak.  Each of those men wer born and raised in socities that had no super-technology.  Each of those men were progenitors of super-technology.  T'Challa, conversely, was born into a society that had developed super-technology hundreds of years before he was born.  T'Challa my be a genius, but he can never qualify as a super-genius, because he comes from a society where super-technology already is commonplace.  To qualify as a super-genius, one must be a progenitor of super-technology.
So, in a super-technological society, there can be no super-geniuses?

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
(Some people seem to be confused by my use of these terms.  In the Marvel Universe, a super-genius is a person who is a progenitor of super-technology.  Super-technology is, in turn, technology that does not and cannot exist in the real world: anti-grav cars (such as the one T'Challa invented and impressed Reed with in FF #52, a story Hudlin has completely ignored and destroyed), force fields, time machines, featherweight metals harder than steel, etc.)
Why has FF #52 been ignored and destroyed? T'Challa hasn't been shown meeting the FF a different way, so it still happened, so T'Challa still built the anti-grav car, so T'Challa is still a super-genius. Also, the armour T'Challa used when fighting Doom cannot be built in the real world. Light-weight metal armour that can disappear underneath cloth and spring out at a moment's notice, also with the hint of an on-board integrated electronics (OBIE ) system? Not real, my friend, otherwise we'd all have one. T'Challa = super-genius, by your own definition.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This also raises the question of why T'Challa was educated in the west.  Coming from Wakanda, it makes no sense for T'Chaka to have sent his son to the west to be educated.  That would be like Donald Trump sending his children to a one-room schoolhouse in the poorest regions of Mexico to get an education.  Why would anyone disadvantage their child so?  Wakanda is so clearly far in advanced of the West that T'Challa would get an incredibly sub-pat education there -- he would be effectively an imbecile in a society of geniuses.  Unless of course Hudlin has rewritten the past to remove that aspect of the character (which in turn destroys the integrity of a great many other tales, including things written by Kirby, MacGregor, and Priest).
I think T'Challa attended school in the West, but after being schooled in Wakanda (building the afore-mentioned armour as a child implies he was getting serious Wakandan schooling). I think in this interpretation, it was more of a cultural education - the fact that T'Chaka met with the Bilderberg group implies he was planning to break with Wakanda's isolationist traditions, and he possibly intended for T'Challa to get some schooling overseas to better understand the outside world - it was education for T'Challa as a future king, rather than as a scientist. There - Hudlin is intact, and so is Priest, Macgregor, et al.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
This is basically why I wish Marvel would fire Hudlin and get him off the series.  He has absolutely no respect for the fact that the Marvel Universe is a shared universe that existed long before he was on the scene.  And he keeps making these changes that have these snowball effect that turns the entire Black Panther mythos -- and in turn parts of the Fantastic Four and Avengers mythos -- into nonsense.   There are stories in which T'Challa meets up with ex-college girlfriends, for example, that now make no sense at all because it's utterly silly to suggest that a super-advanced society would send it's children off to be educated by primitives.

The only contradictions come from the first arc which was written originally as a stand-alone mini, not fully in-continuity - a Hudlinverse, if you will. Even then, the contradictions are minor, the only one that's really hard to reconcile is at what stage T'Challa joins the Avengers, most of the others can be no-prized away. From issue #7 onwards, it's hard to find anything in BP that contradicts continuity.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
He may not have said "White fans" (though it was certainly implied),
Wait, even though you didn't have a link, I'd thought you were directly quoting. Seriously, try to find an actual direct quote or let this go. Lots of people have looked for a direct quote of Reggie calling White fans racist, from before HEF1.0 was destroyed, and it was never out there, although they all swore blind it was. As for implications, Reggie and others have stated quite plainly that some fans, White and otherwise, have issues with a strong, Black portrayal of Panther, but no one has ever said that every complaint comes from that motivation, or that every White fan is like this. Lots of people did react to this as if it was a blanket condemnation of every White person, or every person who didn't like Hudlin's Panther, but that was over-reaction, plain and simple.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
I remember it quite strongly, because it was upon reading that comment that I made my decision to never buy another Hudlin penned comic again.
All power to you, but IMHO, it's your loss.

Quote from: lovecrafty on December 18, 2006, 05:53:17 PM
And as a white guy who cites "Soul on Ice" as one of the most important books he's ever read, I took a bit of offense to the fact that Hudlin was dismissing legitimate fan concerns by accusing every white guy who disagreed with him of being a closet racist.  That's irresponsible, dismiissive, and speaks volumes about Mr. Hudlin's ego

It also didn't happen. But hey, what's that really matter? 
 
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 05:36:51 pm »
Quote
All in all, I think this convo is moot.  The fact remains that this is a fictional nation that doesn't exist.  And while you say that alien technology can only explain Wakandan technology you are partially right.  Wakanda is highly advanced because of an alien mineral that their nation was founded on.  That is the key element that you are missing in all of this.  Their advanced technology extends from their study of vibranium.  They have known it contains special properties since the beginning of the civilization.  You are also forgetting that the Wakandan nation is 10000 years old.  THERE IS NO HOMOSAPIEN CIVILIZATION THAT IS KNOWN TO HAVE LIVED THAT LONG IN REALITY. Thus due to the age and years of study of vibranium, Wakandans should be effing ETERNALS by now.

Okay.  I still think it's ridiculous and completely unbelievable, but whatever.  A 10,000 year old civilization more advanced than any on Earth, that is still mired in primitive tribalism, xenophobia, and isolationism?  Sorry, i just don't buy it.

You are terrible. I'm done here because you just played yourself.  First you come to this post discussing how terrible Hudlin is for destroying the character now you are saying that you can't accept the original premise of the character which you call "ridiculous and completely unbelievable" but yet it predates Hudlin.  THe "history of Wakanda is the history of vibranium," those are Jack Kirby's words.  This means that Wakanda was founded on the study, cultivation, and use of the most advanced metal in the world.  You can't believe in the existence of a machine that causes guns to blow up but you fail to realize that the fictional nation was born out of the use of a metal that does not exist. It is not suppose to make sense in a real world setting because it is a fictional metal.  Please get that through your head.  

The fact that you refuse to excuse Wakanda for what it is really brings into play the most logical reason why a Westerner can't accept an African nation being more advanced than any Western nation independent of Western knowledge.  A guiding savior that is a super-genius through the teachings of the Western world that brings the light to his dark nation is easily acceptable.  A noble chieftain who bridges his ancient highly independent and arrogant nation to the outside world bringing it within the gloabal community is totally unbelievable despite the fact that the nation itself is 10000 years old (older and longer lasting than any currently known civilization) and explicitly based on a mineral that is not only foreign to Earth but possesses qualities that no known mineral possesses.  

This is another reason why race issue comes into play.  For some reason people make unreasonable complaints about Hudlin but in reality the issue is with the character itself.  you can blame Hudlin all you want but the real issue you are having predates him.  Anyways, I'm done here because you have proven that a discussion with you is pointless.    
 
 
 
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 05:38:12 pm »
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     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #201 on: Today at 11:34:47 AM »   

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Quote from: Yaw on Today at 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: Vic Vega on Today at 09:52:10 AM



Let me get this straight.

We're talking about the genre with teleporting dogs and flying men in spandex and you have a problem with accepting the technical superiority of an African nation-state(Wakanda)!!!

But the guy who can fly by means of tiny little wings on his ankles I assume you have no problem with.

Is the concept of African hyper-technical advancement due to a colonialism-free enviroment more bizarre that the guy who turns green when you piss him off?     

Its easier for you to believe that one man single-handedly dragged an entire pre-technological nation into the 22 Century in around 10 years than just being the advanced product of an advanced society?   

What?  Was T'Challa commisioning and designing publics works project at the age of 10?

Fantasy Africans developing lasers in the 1800? Absurd.

Flying men in Spandex? That works for you, though.

Jesus.


His comments are reflective of the underlying belief and practice of African/Black inferiority of American institutions.  This is practiced in all American insitutions and affects all races of people.  He only reacting to what he's been taught.  This is one of the reasons I don't believe a movie on Black PAnther could or would ever be successful.   Calling a fictional character "unbelievable" in a comic world is simply ridiculous.  Black superiority independent of Western intervention is too unbelievable to suspend one's belief.


Unfortunately,there is a great deal of truth in these posts,as the underlying premise that formed the indoctrination for these kinds of arguments have been taught far and wide as the gospel truth for many centuries now...so even the most well-meaning of people are affected by the insidious lies of amoral power mad imperialists. whom dominate the world society.I don't particularly think that lovecrafty is himself an advocate of racism...however,I find his arguments to be steeped in the common theme of intellectual denigration of Black people,with Wakanda as the example of such.I think the proper approach here is to provide empirical data from primary sources,or else this discussion could conceivably drag on interminably.Therefore,my next posts will be devoted to providing said empirical data. I believe that lovecrafty may very well be swayed by the presentation of this information,as he seems to be a man of reason whom is actively attempting to acquire knowledge,and has acquired knowledge already which he seeks to employ and bring to bear in the relevant discussions.I think both you,Vic,and you,Yaw,have made posts worthy of signification consideration and reflection.What shall follow will be one of my better examples of empirical data permanently resolving any and all of the questions previously asked,by all parties.
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 05:39:09 pm »
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    Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #202 on: Today at 11:56:47 AM » 

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Quote from: supreme illuminati on Today at 11:34:47 AM
Quote from: Yaw on Today at 10:46:15 AM
Quote from: Vic Vega on Today at 09:52:10 AM



Let me get this straight.

We're talking about the genre with teleporting dogs and flying men in spandex and you have a problem with accepting the technical superiority of an African nation-state(Wakanda)!!!

But the guy who can fly by means of tiny little wings on his ankles I assume you have no problem with.

Is the concept of African hyper-technical advancement due to a colonialism-free enviroment more bizarre that the guy who turns green when you piss him off?     

Its easier for you to believe that one man single-handedly dragged an entire pre-technological nation into the 22 Century in around 10 years than just being the advanced product of an advanced society?   

What?  Was T'Challa commisioning and designing publics works project at the age of 10?

Fantasy Africans developing lasers in the 1800? Absurd.

Flying men in Spandex? That works for you, though.

Jesus.


His comments are reflective of the underlying belief and practice of African/Black inferiority of American institutions.  This is practiced in all American insitutions and affects all races of people.  He only reacting to what he's been taught.  This is one of the reasons I don't believe a movie on Black PAnther could or would ever be successful.   Calling a fictional character "unbelievable" in a comic world is simply ridiculous.  Black superiority independent of Western intervention is too unbelievable to suspend one's belief.


Unfortunately,there is a great deal of truth in these posts,as the underlying premise that formed the indoctrination for these kinds of arguments have been taught far and wide as the gospel truth for many centuries now...so even the most well-meaning of people are affected by the insidious lies of amoral power mad imperialists. whom dominate the world society.I don't particularly think that lovecrafty is himself an advocate of racism...however,I find his arguments to be steeped in the common theme of intellectual denigration of Black people,with Wakanda as the example of such.I think the proper approach here is to provide empirical data from primary sources,or else this discussion could conceivably drag on interminably.Therefore,my next posts will be devoted to providing said empirical data. I believe that lovecrafty may very well be swayed by the presentation of this information,as he seems to be a man of reason whom is actively attempting to acquire knowledge,and has acquired knowledge already which he seeks to employ and bring to bear in the relevant discussions.I think both you,Vic,and you,Yaw,have made posts worthy of signification consideration and reflection.What shall follow will be one of my better examples of empirical data permanently resolving any and all of the questions previously asked,by all parties.


But what empirical data?  There is nothing that you can post to convince him otherwise.  Using real-world theories to prove an obviously fictional premise is an argument in futility.  The fact remains that the original writers made based a fictional nation on an imaginary substance and made said nation over 6000 years older than any known society.  We are talking about a long continuous history of people that have never been conquered.  There is simply no real-world precedence there.  IF he can't accept those two bases then he simply can't accept the story for what it is.  My only issue here is that he is trying to use those premises as a reason to find fault with Hudlin's work.  He can talk about lack of continuity and his dislike for Hudlin's storytelling style all day and I won't argue with him.  However the issues that he brings up have nothing to do with Hudlin and everything to do with the character and his history.

Oh BTW, the historical inaccuracies by lovecrafty are his erroneous arguments about when the Industrial REvolution occurred in relation to the scene in BP #1 where the White men go to Wakanda to invade it but have their guns blown up in their faces.
 
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 05:40:09 pm »
 
 
supreme illuminati
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Posts: 261


     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #207 on: Today at 02:49:53 PM »   

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Let us begin with a fact that many of us HEFfers have not specifically stated because to us this fact is a given,but to many of RH's detractors it is an issue of the most intense dispute,and that fact is: RH BP IS THE BLACK PANTHER.By Marvel's own acknowledgement and support,RH IS WRITING THE DEFINITIVE BP.Whatever has gone before,where it contradicts RH BP,RH BP takes precedence.If you have any doubt of this,then I suggest you re-read the solicitations for BP after it was transformed from the miniseries it was initially planned to be into an ongoing monthly.Prior to RH BP becoming a series,as was pointed out earlier in an excellent post by either Yaw or Wise Son,RH BP was happening in what amounted to a self-contained Hudlinverse.There have been quite plausible explanations for the existence of two Ebony Blades as well,and these explanations have been given by industry insiders.Recall that the answers to many issues of seeming contention have been answered in the series itself,and RH is constrained on various points not to give answers to certain questions or fully rebut certain previously popular erroneous conclusions due to the need to prevent spoilers.Therefore,we cannot proceed in a definite manner toward complete resolution until we consciously acknowledge what we already know to be fact already.

With those basics out of the way,allow me to directly dispel several issues of contention rather simply:

Quote from lovecrafty:
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak...

Response from Yaw:

That is fine.  I never viewed T'Challa in such a light personally.  This is probably because I read all of the old versions of the character after Priest's run.  So to say that Hudlin has made him less or that Hudlin is ignoring the FAntastic Four introduction, you are erred...

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


It is unfortunate that you have stopped reading RH BP for two reasons: One,it means that you are literally speaking in ignorance about a book when you haven't the data to substantiate your claims.THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE SHARED COMMONALITY OF HUDLIN DETRACTORS,THEY DON'T READ THE BOOK AND MAKE CLAIMS AS IF THEY DO.This isn't a diss. If you had known what you were talking about,you would NEVER HAVE SAID THIS:

Quote
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak..."

Because RH literally devotes issue #19,to disproving this by having BP outduel DOOM technologically.Furthermor,it was established that BP developed light armor while 12 years old--a preteen--and DOOM didn't perform that task until DOOM reached 15 years of age.This issue being cited is especially apropos,because DOOM makes a comment that Wakandans must be the exception to the rule about Africans,by implying that the intellectual prowess of Wakandans is an aberration...and hypothesizes that there might be a low-grade mutant strain amongst Wakandans that delivers them from the intellectual basement that most Africans are permanently assigned to.BP then counters with (a historically rigorously proven fact) the statement that Africans have been charting stars while Europeans were literal cavemen,and DOOM replies:"Oooh,hit a sore spot have I,TChalla?" DOOM's comments and argument presage your argument about Wakandans being "other than human." Therefore,we have proof of TCHALLA's super-intellect by contrast and comparison...he literally outperformed one of the men whom you claim to be a super-genius and flatly stated BP was not on par with.And this reenforces my point about being conversant with the material before you make blanket statements.

REASON NUMBER TWO THAT YOU SHOULDNT'VE STOPPED READING RH'S BP BEFORE SLAMMING IT:

In the issue #21,the Sub-Mariner clearly stated that TCHALLA's grandfather and father foresaw the future..the coming of the Cold War,Namor's attck on the surface world superheroes and the way the world would change because of it,including the conflict between superteams nad insecure human governments...and planned accordingly.

ON WAKANDA

I quote THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,pg. 146-47:

"I am saying that the Blacks not only seemed to have lost the grand vision of the future,but also (what should have been) the unforgettable lessons of the past.The pattern of Caucasion conquest had been cut out and made clear throughout 37 centuries of their history.After they had allowed the Asians ( these are the White Asians,aka Arabs.<--Supreme Illuminati's point of clarification) to infiltrate and then overrun all of Lower Egypt,the Blacks drew a firm boundary line between the Two Lands beyond which the whites were not allowed to settle.Those were the days when the Africans were not so trusting that they were not unable to perceive that the Caucasians were eternally restless unless they were the masters of every situation whatsoever.They were therefore barred from settlement in Black Upper Egypt until Narmer and Menes united Lower and Upper Egypt (thereby returning Egypt to its original Black African inhabitanats...again,my emphasis.SUPREME ILLUMINATI).If there was every a Pyrrhic victory in history,it could not have been more disastrous than that of Menes over the Asians in 3100 B.C.,because the decline of Black civilization,not only throughout Egypt but throughout Africa,can be traced to that period despite all of its monumental achievements afterwards.The termites of its destruction,slow but steady,had been sown under the laudable dream of black-white brotherhood.The long,drawn out process of penetration and eventual domination was both visible and invisible.Yet from these tiny footholds,the Asian population grew and grew until the Blacks were not only outnumbered by Asians but overwhelmed. Substantially,the same pattern was followed throughout every town,city and village throughout Egypt.

The record of the 5,000 years that ended with the European conquest of the whole continent in the nineteenth century shows that every African state remained relatively secure and independant as it maintained a strict policy of exclusion of foreigners from settlement within its borders.This same record makes it clear that whenever the policy was abandoned and Eurpeans were admitted under any pretext whatsoever,the eventual doom of that state was certain..."

It is this record--now let me emphasize that there are RECORDS of this,clearly demonstrating that the aggressors were the Asians and the Europeans,not initially the Africans--it is this same record which Wakanda was presumably aware of,and which Jenn was referring to when she pointed out that we Blacks have been our own worst enemy by basically not taking offense to and becoming offensive with those whom have displayed hostility toward Blacks wherever we reside.Well,it can be easily inferred,the Wakandans not only held to that record,but they also very rapidly reached the conclusion that they couldn't forever prevent the outside world from noting their presence at some time,so they did what more than 5000 years of their history told them they must do:


1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...and all backed by the most inarguable real world science and historical facts.

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it.



TCHALLA'S EDUCATION ABROAD


Very simply answered.He was going to be King,therefore he had to become conversant with the kinds of people whom he had to protect his world (Wakanda) against,and with whom he would be compelled to be proactive with,interactive with,and reactive to...whether friend,foe or indifferent. The international excursion under the "cover" of higher education is part and parcel of the plans of his grandfather,father and himself.Again,the fact that BP is indeed an Avenger,and the fact that the PRIEST exlanation for BP's actions hasn't been retconned is completely made obvious in the books you have failed to read,thereby exposing your literal ignorance and imploding your contentions along these issues.Again,this isn't a diss...it's a correction. This also is implied in BP#21 in his conversation with Namor...and again this leads us back to the fallacy of denigrating a writer and material that you haven't become familiar with and whom you can't properly quote when it comes to a quote that offended you in the first place and lead to your decision not to pick up his material thenceforth.

Btw,I don't think it's cooler of TCHALLA to have singlehandedly created the entirety of Wakandan advanced technology...I find that to be insulting both to Africa (Wakandans were xenophobic backward tribesmen until they sent one of their number to be educated by White folks,and lo...he returns,bearing the manna of White Man Knowledge,and then uses it as a springboard to revolutionize ignorant tribesmen...all to the awed:"ooogah boogahs!" of the backward Wakandans) and overly arrogant of the Western powers.Every other race and country can find it within themselves to advance and not be gainsayed,however fantastic the explanation (DOOM,by the way,could be looked at as continuing the line of super-intellects like TONY STARK,REED RICHARDS,THE LEADER,Einstein,Nobel,Hawkins,et al. TCHALLA would have sprung full grown from an area misrepresented as being devoid of intellectual ability,and TCHALLA would only be molded and stimulated intellectually by White genius,and would go on to be defeated by every White male superhero and most of his villains under the pens of everyone not named D-MAC,PRIEST,or RH...and you think that this is COOLER than our current version of BP,wherein TCHALLA is infinitely more respected,a major player in the MU,more powerful by utilizing the resources of an extraordinary Wakanda combined with his own supergenius,and he puts down the onehittaquitta on people like KARNAK and beheads SABERTOOTH? He slices TONY STARK out of his armor,out thinks DOOM,leads a team of Black superheroes to defeat the vamps,and  he's NOT AS COOL as the guy who gets his ass kicked and dragged away in almost every figh OF HIS OWN SERIESt,stays in the back of the Avengers' pictures,never uses in fights the very same advanced technology that you laud him for creating and which he dispenses without a thought to his super comrades,loses to every white male superhero every time they cross swords,and whom relies on outworlders to educate him when he's descended from the people who CREATED education? Okay,we have very divergent opinions here,lol).

I believe I have covered every salient issue that you have raised.Between this point and my lengthy post a few pages back,literally every question you have posted has been factually answered.Now the only questions left are: would you accept this data as true and incontrovertible? And do you have other questions that aren't the ones that you have already asked?

In closing,I have to belabor the obvious: THIS IS A COMIC BOOK THEREFORE THE WAKANDANS ARE OF COURSE "FANTASTIC" IN THE FICTITIOUS SENSE OF THAT WORD.If your requirement for a "fantastic explanation" is all  that you needed to annoint the Wakandans with in order to "credit" them,then the very fact that they exist nowhere else except on the pages of a comic book should have sufficed so thoroughly that it shouldn't've been a point of contention at any time.But real world history makes them seem a little less fantastic,when one is aware of it...
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:01:12 PM by supreme illuminati »  Report to moderator    72.197.145.21 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 07:44:33 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 05:46:04 pm »
I await your replies with interest,Lovecrafty...
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 06:45:12 pm »
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.

Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakandan culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures. Take for example, Superman. If Planet Krypton was so advanced, deemed itself to superior, why didn't they conquer Earth? Any Age version knew of its existence. Kryptonians could enjoy great powers under a yellow sun. And yet, in the Modern Age, we're to believe they stopped space travelling and isolated themselves? They even modified their DNA to make it impossible to survive outside of Krypton. It sounds like nonsense, but we were supposed to accept that. We're also expected to believe in Superman's American upbringing ensured his moral fortitude. But with American pop culture it's easier to believe it.  So thank you Ma an Pa Kent. You raised him well.

Then there is DC's Themyscira. How could we believe a group of Amazons could repel a Greek army led by Herakles, son of Zeus? In the Silver Age version how could we believe they'd have a Science Island with advanced technology? How can we believe the Modern version has a cure for cancer, but does not wish to share it? How can we believe they enjoy paradise without men? Maybe some don't buy into it, but it's never become a major debate.

We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 07:43:31 pm by Open palm »
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 08:02:04 pm »
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.

Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakandan culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures. Take for example, Superman. If Planet Krypton was so advanced, deemed itself to superior, why didn't they conquer Earth? Any Age version knew of its existence. Kryptonians could enjoy great powers under a yellow sun. And yet, in the Modern Age, we're to believe they stopped space travelling and isolated themselves? They even modified their DNA to make it impossible to survive outside of Krypton. It sounds like nonsense, but we were supposed to accept that. We're also expected to believe in Superman's American upbringing ensured his moral fortitude. But with American pop culture it's easier to believe it.  So thank you Ma an Pa Kent. You raised him well.

Then there is DC's Themyscira. How could we believe a group of Amazons could repel a Greek army led by Herakles, son of Zeus? In the Silver Age version how could we believe they'd have a Science Island with advanced technology? How can we believe the Modern version has a cure for cancer, but does not wish to share it? How can we believe they enjoy paradise without men? Maybe some don't buy into it, but it's never become a major debate.

We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different. 


That is a helluva post,Open Palm...I think I can guess some of Lovecrafty's response,but it will be interesting to read his thoughts about the issue anyway.
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2006, 08:10:17 pm »
Here's my turn now. Lovecrafty, this is not National Geographic. You do bring up many valid questions as to the history and behavior of Wakanda. But this is a comic book. Marvel hasn't had a reason to write the full history and culture of Wakanda. Right now the stories must deal with the present. That means the title hero, Black Panther, must direct his efforts to current problems like the Civil War.


The excuse "It's a comic book." might have been acceptable when the average comic book reader was a ten year old kid spending his dollar allowance on comics, but the modern comic book reader -- who is generally an adult -- demands a higher level of sophistication than that.  At $3/32 pages, I think it's fair to have some expectation

Quote
Supreme Illuminati's answers are very reasonable. And these past two years there have been other titles that further expose the Wakanda's culture. Notably there is Avengers: Illuminati (no relation to Supreme Illuminati) which demonstrates why Black Panther is not a conqueror, why Wakanda does not wish to rule Africa. I'm surprised that you'd start to question a country's self-determination, given the past examples of Wakandan heroes like Beshenga and T'Challa's grandfather. When country's boast of their history the heroes are commonly mentioned. They speak of men like George Washington. It's only later do they mention the inventors and philosophers like Edison and Confucius. Someday, maybe Marvel will mention exact moments of Wakandan advancement. But those stories haven't been written yet.

It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.

Basically we have to accept the idea that Wakanda is full of inquisitive, daring people who aren't curious about the world outside them, aren't entrepreneurial, and that -- despite the fact that we know there are evil Wakandans -- they have never in 10,000 years experienced the desire to expand their nation, to share their culture.  And we can[/i] accept that, but we have to recognize that the Wakandans are not typical human beings.  They think quite differently than regular people, being signifigantly smarter and more enlightened than the average population group.  They are fantasy people, not real people.

Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation.  The Inhumans were contacted by aliens and given alien technology and wisdom, essentially advanced by outsiders, and have only stagnated since.  The Eternals were created by the Celestials, and haven't changed at all in their whole existence.  The Atlanteans were the dominant superpower of the Atlantean Age, which means they've been around for tens of thousands of years (making the Wakandans seem young in comparison).  The Atlanteans have also been in a slow inexcorable decline for thousands of years, and are a slowly dying race.  K'un L'un is a city displaced in time, and also has a stagnant, unprogressing culture.

Quote
I want to direct your doubts to similar superheroes and fictional cultures.

I'm more or less unfamiliar with the DC universe.  I only read Marvel comics, and a few Indies.  A large part of that is that I have found DC comics that I have read, with few exceptions, to be really stupid and hard to get into (also I loathe Batman).  My response to your examples is basically "Yeah, I agree.  DC is stupid."

Quote
We can put the same doubt on Marvel's Inhumans and Eternals. They now stay separated from human civilization but they also enjoy a powerful, advanced culture. We accept their ways and Wakanda should be no different.

Well, actually, that is my entire point.  Reggie Hudlin's changes to Wakanda have changed them from a typical African nation with an exceptional king to an exceptional/fantastic African nation more akin to the Inhumans.  Which makes them seem alien and "other than human" in the same way the Eternals, Inhumans and Atlanteans are other than human.  Now, this is not retroactive continuity, this is a retroactive alteration. 

Retroactive alterations have ripple effect, especially if their big changes.  Because the exact history of Wakanda was never a major plot point in most of the MU, this is a relatively small change, but it does have some powerful effects on Black Panther.  One can no longer say that T'Challa is a man who single handly advanced a relatively disadvantaged nation into a world superpower.  If we accept Hudlin's new history, then the stature of Wakanda and past Black Panthers is raised, but at a cost to T'Challa's individual stature.

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2006, 09:14:39 pm »
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.
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Offline kitamu Re

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 10:03:23 pm »
Quote
It's more that I question that a nation could exist for 10,000 years without having an expansive conquering phase, and not be stagnant.  To advance a society has to be inquisitive and daring, and any society that breeds inquisitive and daring people -- which Wakanda obviously does -- is going to be curious about the world outside, and is going to be expansive -- increases in technology increase lifespans, increase population growth, and force expansion.


you sound european or caucasian..or more aptly a wolf in sheeps clothing..me personally I prefer the strormfront troopers to the rockefellers..it's always nice to know the ingerdeients I am cooking with ;D

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 10:11:50 pm »
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.

I would strongly disagree that you have answered any of concerns conclusively.  To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your argument at all.  What historical examples did you cite?  Is the book you quoted an actual scholarly work?  Because the language in that quote is very...cranky.  Kooky?  Some quick internet research indifcates that it is not historically accurate, and is more polemic than genuine description of history.  One review of the book had this interesting comment to make: "Finally, Chancellor Williams can't bring himself to admit the simple truth as to why ancient African civilizations collapsed: they collapsed for the same reason all the others did--they overextended themselves, grew decadent, and left themselves wide open for invaders. Williams insists that the blacks were too trusting of outside forces. But the same could be said about the Romans trusting the barbarians (whom they allowed into their armies) who eventually destroyed Rome."  Other comments indicate that much of Williams research is unverifiable, and that his claims can't be checked due to poor annotation.

You're not really talking about "real world history" when you cite books like, anymore than feminists are talking about real history when they cite Mary Daly (the woman who invented the term "The Burning Times", she claims that 9 million women were killed in the 14th-16th century in Europe in witch burnings, though all other research places the number at closer to 150,000). You're talking about an agenda driven polemic, which is quite different than real history.

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 10:13:33 pm »
you sound european or caucasian..or more aptly a wolf in sheeps clothing..me personally I prefer the strormfront troopers to the rockefellers..it's always nice to know the ingerdeients I am cooking with ;D

I'm of Scottish descent, but I'm an American, not a European.  I don't know how one would "sound caucasian".

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 10:26:38 pm »
lovecrafy,you completely ignored my post which thoroughly answered your concerns using real world examples of such.Literally historical examples about people whom the fictional Wakandans would have learned from,given the time period and all of that.Every question which you are harping upon has been conclusively answered in my post to you above Open Palm's post and my latest PM to you.Please read them,and you will discover that the empirical data thus supplied effectively ends factual questioning along the lines you proposed.If you add Open Palm's post to mine,one might opine that we have a literal case of factual overkill here...and I don't mean that in a demaeaning way.Read the posts and you will see what I mean.Please reply to my post and my PM to you here,Thank you.

I would strongly disagree that you have answered any of concerns conclusively.  To be honest, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding your argument at all.  What historical examples did you cite?  Is the book you quoted an actual scholarly work?  Because the language in that quote is very...cranky.  Kooky?  Some quick internet research indifcates that it is not historically accurate, and is more polemic than genuine description of history.  One review of the book had this interesting comment to make: "Finally, Chancellor Williams can't bring himself to admit the simple truth as to why ancient African civilizations collapsed: they collapsed for the same reason all the others did--they overextended themselves, grew decadent, and left themselves wide open for invaders. Williams insists that the blacks were too trusting of outside forces. But the same could be said about the Romans trusting the barbarians (whom they allowed into their armies) who eventually destroyed Rome."  Other comments indicate that much of Williams research is unverifiable, and that his claims can't be checked due to poor annotation.

You're not really talking about "real world history" when you cite books like, anymore than feminists are talking about real history when they cite Mary Daly (the woman who invented the term "The Burning Times", she claims that 9 million women were killed in the 14th-16th century in Europe in witch burnings, though all other research places the number at closer to 150,000). You're talking about an agenda driven polemic, which is quite different than real history.

lovecrafty,here you are being hamstrung by your honest lack of knowledge about the area of scholarship here,because every single one of CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' points are not only annotated--I have them right here in front of me--very little of it is different from the discoveries of other scholars.In fact,MUCH OF ITS EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED IN THE SCHOLARSHIP OF OTHERS WHOM DRAW EXTREMELY DUBIOUS CONCLUSIONS.The persons whom decry Chancellor's work are the same people whom have insisted that there was Caucasian influence guiding Egyptian culture,utterly ignoring these salient facts because acknowledging them would implode the widely held position of Caucasian superiority and anteriority at that time:

1) Egypt is older than every single Caucasian civilization,therefore they COULD NOT be affected by an a priori Caucasian civilization
2) Egypt was a part of the Ethiopian civilization for much of its existence,tying it permanently to Black Africa.
3) Lastly,over the last 30 years,there wasn't a single statement that Chancellor made that hasn't been verified over and over again.

Please have a care as to whom you credit for accurate scholarship,lovecrafty.DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' book was literally ahead of its time,and the detractors are simply individuals whom support the notion that CHANCELLOR said something that he didn't say.If they read the book--and just as importantly,if YOU read the book--you would see that CHANCELLOR isn't being cranky,he's simply being honest.When others invade your homeland and follow a distinct and clearly discernable pattern,it's HONEST SCHOLARSHIP if you point it out as such.I might remind you that this approach lead directly to the "divide and conquer" approach and the "priests first,guns next" approach that Europe used to conquer nonwhites the world over.Chancellor lays plenty of blame at the feet of Black leaders as my excerpt of his work shows,but he DOES NOT allow the shoddy scholarship that would opine that Whites were in Africa prior to Blacks to continue with the preposterous conclusions that they have used to pool the wool over the eyes of most of the world.This is not kooky.What would be kooky is the ridiculous belief that many Whites held and STILL hold about Egypt being in the Middle East,and the Pharoahs being anything other than Black.

The situation for Blacks in Africa is NOTHING like the situation in Rome.No Romans or Caucasians were targeted by another race as their sole source of slaves.This should be so transparently obvious that to even intimate anything like what the reviewers you quote wrote should make you INSTANTLY SUSPICIOUS OF THE REVIEWERS,NOT CHANCELLOR...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 10:42:14 pm by supreme illuminati »
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