Author Topic: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...  (Read 20198 times)

Online supreme illuminati

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2006, 02:22:35 pm »
The fact of the matter is that people are people, and people are all the same.  Whether they are African, European, Asian, or American (meaning first peoples, not citizens of the USA), the only meaningful differences are cultural.  Because of this, all human socities show patterns.  Socities that are progressive -- that are developing new technologies -- are expansive, domineering, conquering societies, imposing their progressive worldview on neighboring socities.  And expansive, domineering socities inevitabley become soft and complacent and collapse into decadence.  The whole of human history works like.  Just like mankind started in Africa and spread out across the world, the progressive leading edge of civilization began in Africa, move into Eurasia, and then split into two locii of civilization, one Eastern and one Western.  The Western locii moved from Ethiopia, to Egypt, to Rome, to Franco-Germany, to England, then America.  America in turn has been in a steady state of decline, and the progressive edge is moving into the "Third World"

^^^lovecrafty



This is largely true; in fact,you will be hard pressed to find a branch of science that espouses and defends this positon more powerfully than African Studies does...however,we recognize that the intellectual and moral pogrom conducted along with Europe's ascenscion in power worldwide has victimized everyone,duping and harming everyone except the European power elite,whom profit from the propaganda and indoctrination which passes as education in most of the "developed countries" on the planet.The fact taht African Studies has been spectacularly successful in shedding these strictures and shining exactly the kind of light that they do not wish upon the odious conduct,shoddy scholarship,immoral greed and endless power lust of those whom require that 99% of the world remain submissive for their personal aggrandizement.This is also well known.

More to the point...let us not digress upon the tangent of your entirely incorrect (mis)understanding of African studies.Let us remain focused upon the salient questions which can and should be answered without reference to DR.WILLIAMS' work.Please answer those questions.

I await your response.
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2006, 02:48:22 pm »

 
supreme illuminati
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     Re: Black Panther: Hudlin, Storm, & the fear of (real) black love
« Reply #207 on: Today at 02:49:53 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us begin with a fact that many of us HEFfers have not specifically stated because to us this fact is a given,but to many of RH's detractors it is an issue of the most intense dispute,and that fact is: RH BP IS THE BLACK PANTHER.By Marvel's own acknowledgement and support,RH IS WRITING THE DEFINITIVE BP.Whatever has gone before,where it contradicts RH BP,RH BP takes precedence.If you have any doubt of this,then I suggest you re-read the solicitations for BP after it was transformed from the miniseries it was initially planned to be into an ongoing monthly.Prior to RH BP becoming a series,as was pointed out earlier in an excellent post by either Yaw or Wise Son,RH BP was happening in what amounted to a self-contained Hudlinverse.There have been quite plausible explanations for the existence of two Ebony Blades as well,and these explanations have been given by industry insiders.Recall that the answers to many issues of seeming contention have been answered in the series itself,and RH is constrained on various points not to give answers to certain questions or fully rebut certain previously popular erroneous conclusions due to the need to prevent spoilers.Therefore,we cannot proceed in a definite manner toward complete resolution until we consciously acknowledge what we already know to be fact already.

With those basics out of the way,allow me to directly dispel several issues of contention rather simply:

Quote from lovecrafty:
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak...

Response from Yaw:

That is fine.  I never viewed T'Challa in such a light personally.  This is probably because I read all of the old versions of the character after Priest's run.  So to say that Hudlin has made him less or that Hudlin is ignoring the FAntastic Four introduction, you are erred...

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


It is unfortunate that you have stopped reading RH BP for two reasons: One,it means that you are literally speaking in ignorance about a book when you haven't the data to substantiate your claims.THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE SHARED COMMONALITY OF HUDLIN DETRACTORS,THEY DON'T READ THE BOOK AND MAKE CLAIMS AS IF THEY DO.This isn't a diss. If you had known what you were talking about,you would NEVER HAVE SAID THIS:

Quote
Except he's not on par with Doom, Reed or Strak..."

Because RH literally devotes issue #20,to disproving this by having BP outduel DOOM technologically.Furthermor,it was established that BP developed light armor while 12 years old--a preteen--and DOOM didn't perform that task until DOOM reached 15 years of age.This issue being cited is especially apropos,because DOOM makes a comment that Wakandans must be the exception to the rule about Africans,by implying that the intellectual prowess of Wakandans is an aberration...and hypothesizes that there might be a low-grade mutant strain amongst Wakandans that delivers them from the intellectual basement that most Africans are permanently assigned to.BP then counters with (a historically rigorously proven fact) the statement that Africans have been charting stars while Europeans were literal cavemen,and DOOM replies:"Toucy subject,Panter..? Perhaps too much time playing "TONTO" to Captain America?" DOOM's comments and argument presage your argument about Wakandans being "other than human." Therefore,we have proof of TCHALLA's super-intellect by contrast and comparison...he literally outperformed one of the men whom you claim to be a super-genius and flatly stated BP was not on par with.And this reenforces my point about being conversant with the material before you make blanket statements.

REASON NUMBER TWO THAT YOU SHOULDNT'VE STOPPED READING RH'S BP BEFORE SLAMMING IT:

In the issue #21,the Sub-Mariner clearly stated that TCHALLA's grandfather and father foresaw the future..the coming of the Cold War,Namor's attck o nthe surface  world superheroes and the way the world would change because of it,including the conflict between superteams nad insecure human governments...and planned accordingly.

ON WAKAND

I quote THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION,pg. 146-47:

"I am saying that the Blacks not only seemed to have lost the grand vision of the future,but also (what should have been) the unforgettable lessons of the past.The pattern of Caucasion conquest had been cut out and made clear throughout 37 centuries of their history.After they had allowed the Asians ( these are the White Asians,aka Arabs.<--Supreme Illuminati's point of clarification) to infiltrate and then overrun all of Lower Egypt,the Blacks drew a firm boundary line between the Two Lands beyond which the whites were not allowed to settle.Those were the days when the Africans were not so trusting that they were not unable to perceive that the Caucasians were eternally restless unless they were the masters of every situation whatsoever.They were therefore barred from settlement in Black Upper Egypt until Narmer and Menes united Lower and Upper Egypt (thereby returning Egypt to its original Black African inhabitanats...again,my emphasis.SUPREME ILLUMINATI).If there was every a Pyrrhic victory in history,it could not have been more disastrous than that of Menes over the Asians in 3100 B.C.,because the decline of Black civilization,not only throughout Egypt but throughout Africa,can be traced to that period despite all of its monumental achievements afterwards.The termites of its destruction,slow but steady,had been sown under the laudable dream of black-white brotherhood.The long,drawn out process of penetration and eventual domination was both visible and invisible.yet from these tiny footholds,the Asian population grew and grew until the Blacks were not only outnumbered by Asians but overwhelmed. Substantially,the same pattern was followed throughout every town,city and village throughout Egypt.

The record of the 5,000 years that ended with the European conquest of the whole continent in the nineteenth century shows that every African state remained relatively secure and independant as it maintained a strict policy of exclusion of foreigners from settlement within its borders.This same record makes it clear that whenever the policy was abandoned and Eurpeans were admitted under any pretext whatsoever,the eventual doom of that state was certain..."

It is this record--now let me emphasize that there are RECORDS of this,clearly demonstrating that the aggressors were the Asians and the Europeans,not initially the Africans--it is this same record which Wakanda was presumably aware of,and which Jenn was referring to when she pointed out that we Blacks have been our own worst enemy by basically not taking offense to and becoming offensive with our race enemies.Well,it can be easily inferred,the Wakandans not only held to that record,but they also very rapidly reached the conclusion that they couldn't forever prevent the outside world from noting their presence at some time,so they did what more than 5000 years of their history told them they must do:


1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...and all backed by the most inarguable real world science and historical facts.

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it.



TCHALLA'S EDUCATION ABROAD


Very simply answered.He was going to be King,therefore he had to become conversant with the kinds of people whom he had to protect the world against. It is part and parcel of the plans of his grandfather,fathe and himself.Again,the fact that BP is indeed an Avenger,and the fact that the PRIEST exlanation for BP's actions hasn't been retconned is completely made obvious in the books you have failed to read,thereby exposing your literal ignorance and imploding your contentions along these issues.Again,this isn't a diss...it's a correction. This also is implied in BP#21 in his conversation with Namor...and again this leads us back to the fallacy of denigrating a writer and material that you haven't become familiar with and whom you can't properly quote when it comes to a quote that offended you in the first place and lead to your decision not to pick up his material thenceforth.

Btw,I don't think it's cooler of TCHALLA to have singlehandedly created the entirety of Wakandan advanced technology...I find that to be insulting both to Africa (Wakandans were xenophobic backward tribesmen until they sent one of their number to be educated by White folks,and lo...he returns,bearing the manna of White Man Knowledge,and then uses it as a springboard to revolutionize ignorant tribesmen...all to the awed:"ooogah boogahs!" of the backward Wakandans) and overly arrogant of the Western powers.Every other race and country can find it within themselves to advance and not be gainsayed,however fantastic the explanation (DOOM,by the way,could be looked at as continuing the line of super-intellects like TONY STARK,REED RICHARDS,THE LEADER,Einstein,Nobel,Hawkins,et al. TCHALLA would have sprung full grown from an area devoid of intellectual ability,and TCHALLA would only be molded and stimulated intellectually by White genius,and would go on to be defeated by every White male superhero and most of his villains under the pens of everyone not named D-MAC,PRIEST,or RH...and you think that this is COOLER than our current version of BP,wherein TCHALLA is infinitely more respected,a major player in the MU,more powerful by utilizing the resources of an extraordinary Wakanda combined with his own supergenius,and he puts down the onehittaquitta on people like KARNAK and beheads SABERTOOTH? He slices TONY STARK out of his armor,out thinks DOOM,leads a team of Black superheroes to defeat the vamps,and  he's NOT AS COOL as the guy who gets his ass kicked and dragged away in almost every fight,stays in the back of the Avengers' pictures,never uses in fights the very same advanced technology that you laud him for creating,loses to every white male superhero every time they cross swords,relies on outworlders to educate him when he's descended from the people who CREATED education? Okay,we have very divergent opinions here,lol).

I believe I have covered every salient issue that you have raised.Between this point and my lengthy post a few pages back,literally every question you have posted has been factually answered.Now the only question is would you accept this data as true and incontrovertible? And do you have other questions that aren't the ones that you have already asked?

In closing,I have to belabor the obvious: THIS IS A COMIC BOOK THEREFORE THE WAKANDANS ARE OF COURSE "FANTASTIC" IN THE FICTITIOUS SENSE OF THAT WORD.If your requirement for a "fantastic explanation" is all you that you needed to annoint the Wakandans with in order to "credit" them,then the very fact that they exist nowhere else except on the pages of a comic book should have sufficed so thoroughly that it shouldn't've been a point of contention at any time.But real world history makes them seem a little less fantastic,when one is aware of it...
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:01:12 PM by supreme illuminati »  Report to moderator    72.197.145.21 
 
 
 

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lovecrafty

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2006, 03:05:42 pm »
lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.


I know how to recognize fringe theories when I see them -- generally one can look at the criticism of any work and tell whether it is fringe or not from those alone -- and Dr. Williams book is fringe theory.  this is not biases, this is simply skepticism.

Quote
To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.


Pffft, sorry, no, that's simply not true.  Irish Celts are genetically different from Scottish Celts precisely because of centuries of raape and enslavement by Scandanvians.  My own family arrived in America in the early 18th century because British aristocrats decided our ancestral lands would be better used for wool production and foricibly dislocated us to America as indentured servents (http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1272&id=1927552005).  The Romans made slaves of everyone they conquered, and most of the Roman expansion was northwesternly, conquering Germanic and Gaullish people.  The primary reason that the locus of civilization moved into Western Europe is because of the Roman conquest and enslavement of Western Europeans.  For the vast majority of civilized history the vast majority of people -- all people, of all "races" -- were slaves to various groups of aristocrats.

The model you're describing, of exclusive focus on blacks as a source of slaves was a very late development, a result of the development of the philosophies of racism and merchantilism.  It also ignores the attempted enslavement of native American people (this was largely unsuccessfull due to the relative differences in disease immunity in tthe two population groups.  Essentially Africans have a higher resistance to European diseases than native Americans did, so African slaves were less likely to die in droves after coming into contact with Europeans).
Quote
Because it gives a historical framework for Wakanda's actions: the xenophobia,the advanced science,the population control,the unequaled military power,and the injunction against expansion,as Wakanda would seek to prevent enemies from finding them or even thinking much about them if at all possible,and then exterminate any attempt to subjugate them with the most extreme prejudice,leaving only one person alive to tell the tale (as RH himself put it in the sticky called THE VISION at the top of this page) warning against trying to mess with the Wakandans.Again,the wisdom of this policy is evidenced not only by the singular achievement of never being conquered or compromised in their entire history,but also by instances both fictional and factual: the fictional being the events as Namor told TChalla that TChalla's grandfather and father foresaw in BP #21 (which you never read,and thus didn't know that your concerns on this matter had already been addressed within the run) which ranged from WW II to Namor's attacks on the surface world and every salient event leading to the Civil War,as well as the return of slavery to Namibia and the Sudan in the real world.There is no arguing with the rigorousness of the policy that Wakanda established for itself--EXACTLY AS STAN LEE AND KIRBY WANTED IT TO BE FAR BACK IN THE 60s WHEN THEY COULDN'T REMOTELY FORETELL THE EVENTS OF THE CURRENT DAY.So remonstrate with STAN LEE about the origins of the isolationist policy and why he created it...just be sure to point out that this same policy has been proven to be the wisest policy for Wakanda's survival and continued rapid upward development to this very day.So you may ignore with impunity the entire work of DR.CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS,and still be compelled by undeniable fact to reach the same conclusions as he did about the behaviour of the aggressors,and the behaviour of the aggressed upon.This is not a matter of "angry Black folks" or is it a matter of a scholar  spouting "racist nonsense" as you put it,nor is this an issue of afrocentrism.Isolaltionism is a very reasonable response to a situation like slavery,and this factual historical event is the ultimate sanction for such an action,as the actions of STAN LEE and KIRBY are the ultimate sanction for RH's stance.


You're still ignoring the very simple fact that an isolationist culture that seeks only to perserve it's own heritage will always be a stagnant culture, and there is simply no way that the Wakandans can be both progressive and isolationist.

Quote
Even without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.


This isn't fair, I thought we agreed to drop this.  Since the old forum is gone, there is no way to recall Mr. Hudlin's exact quotes, this argument boils down to I remember this, you remember that, and neither of us can prove anything.  I remember posting to this forum in it's original form when BP first appeared, and I remember being very upset by the dismissive and race-baiting arguments that Mr. Hudlin used to justify ignoring continuity.  And honestly, I wouldn't exactly take the word of "Muddy Boots" on what he did or did not say, because his own behavior calls his ability to be honest and self-critical into doubt.

Quote
I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.


Hudlin's Black Panther is not set in a new universe, it's set in the 616 universe, so i don't understand your point here at all.  I don't know anything about this Lee/Kirby Silver Surfer graphic novel.  I've never heard of it, never read it, and never seen it referenced anywhere but Mr. Hudlin's letter.  Also, Silver Surfer's origin never did involve the FF, so it's a rather moot point.  The fact is that T'Challa took out the FF before he took out Klaw, as a warm-up excercise (but they escaped due to the fact that T'Challa hadn't prepared for Wyatt Wingfoot).  If Mr. Hudlin wanted to completely rewrite the history of Black Panther, he should have done as Mr. Card did, and created ULTIMATE Black Panther.

Quote
So,if you're halting this discussion purely because of your objection to DR. WILLIAMS' work and your contention
This is not REMOTELY what afrocentrism is.I am going to receive my Ph.d. in Afrocentrism,so please have a care as to what scholars you cite and how you define scholarly pursuits.The ACTUAL definiton of Afrocentrism is:"centered on Africa or on African-derived cultures, as those of Brazil, Cuba, and Haiti,etc."  The purpopse of this branch of study is to literally undo the damage of Eurocentric "scholarship" with its assumption of European divinely given dominance,and to undo the damage that this policy has done to the minds and people of everyone everywhere.When we all are aware of the fact that there is no branch of the human family that exists that has not made significant contributions to the planet,then we will have more tolerant,more realistic,more fruitful,and less conflictful interactions amongst ourselves and with each other.Period.Have a care as to whom you speak about or for,especially when you don't have the relevant facts or information.


Well I apologize.

lovecrafty

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2006, 03:27:41 pm »
Fantasy people need a fantastic explanation. 
Alien meteor? Check.
Panther God? Check.

And this here is where I get to restate my original point:  Which makes Black Panther cooler and more powerful:

"T'Challa singlehandly rasied a typical African nation to the status of 21st Centruy Superpower in a decade."

"T'Challa was born into an advanced society that owes it's advanced state to the influence of an alien rock and a supernatural entity."

I can definitely understand why some people would prefer option B, especially black people who feel a connection to this image of a powerful, mythic Africa.   I really dug the show Roar (about Scottish resistance to Roman invasion) even though it was really quite bad, and so I understand how appealing that sort of story can be. Hopefully you can also understand why someone who found the rugged individualism of the original version a powerful concept but had no personal investment in the idea of a mythic Africa would prefer Option A.

It'd even be easy to resolve the difference between the two.  Who is the Panther God?  Where did he come from?  Perhaps someday we will see Black Panther: The End and find out that T'Challa eventually transcends mere mortality and the limitations of time and space and becomes the Panther God, guding his people throughout history.

On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.  Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom.  Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it).  I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 05:32:40 pm »


"Quote from: supreme illuminati on Today at 04:11:51 PM
lovecrafty,even if you doubt the scholarship of a book you never read and aren't aware of the arguments FOR the book,yet you seem to AUTOMATICALLY CREDIT ARGUMENTS CONTRARY to the positions taken by DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS--a very odd position to take,and one that in and of itself might smack of biased (if not racist) overtones alone--that by no means discounts the great majority of the argument that I and others presented to you.

I know how to recognize fringe theories when I see them -- generally one can look at the criticism of any work and tell whether it is fringe or not from those alone -- and Dr. Williams book is fringe theory.  this is not biases, this is simply skepticism."

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:


That is NOT skepticism,it's the endorsement of the opinions of detractors of a work which you have never read.however,you have no problem with reading the criticisms of detractors and instantly crediting their words. You not only ignored the word of supporters,you REFUTED the position of supporters of Dr. Chancellor Williams' work.Being skeptical is being doubtful of the truth or veracity of a particular position by literal definition.You,lovecrafty,JOINED THE OPPOSITION to Dr.Chancellor's work and used words like "cranky,kooky," and "fringe theory" when you haven't studied the field sufficiently to have an informed opinion on the matter.The very fact that you went online to observe the opinions of detractors and ADOPTED THEIR POSITION speaks volumes of your initial inclinations to discredit anyone who challenges your positions (at least in this situation),whether your positions are factually accurate or not.In this situation,we have empirical evidence that you cannot refute,because you were exposed to the existence of this book only after I--a supporter--cited its works in support of a possible hypothesis for fictional Wakanda being isolationist but not decaying.You then went online AND FOUND DETRACTORS WHOSE POSITION YOU ADOPTED.You didn't read the book.You didn't cite the positions of supporters other than me whom may have reached different conclusions.YOU FOUND DETRACTORS WHOM YOU INSTANTLY CREDITED WITH BEING CORRECT DESPITE BEING IGNORANT OF THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DECRYING.That,lovecrafty,is concrete evidence of prior bias,if not deeply subconscious racism.That is also typical of RH's detractors...they truculently cling to the absence of facts and do not relinquish their bulldog grip even when presented with incontrovertible evidence refuting their positions.


quote surpeme illuminati
"To make it crystal clear,then I will conceded the point of DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' works,and cite information which we all already know to be true: White Arabs and Europeans focused on Black people as their primary and exclusive source of slavery.

lovecrafty's response:

"Pffft, sorry, no, that's simply not true.  Irish Celts are genetically different from Scottish Celts precisely because of centuries of raape and enslavement by Scandanvians.  My own family arrived in America in the early 18th century because British aristocrats decided our ancestral lands would be better used for wool production and foricibly dislocated us to America as indentured servents (http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1272&id=1927552005).  The Romans made slaves of everyone they conquered, and most of the Roman expansion was northwesternly, conquering Germanic and Gaullish people.  The primary reason that the locus of civilization moved into Western Europe is because of the Roman conquest and enslavement of Western Europeans.  For the vast majority of civilized history the vast majority of people -- all people, of all "races" -- were slaves to various groups of aristocrats."



The model you're describing, of exclusive focus on blacks as a source of slaves was a very late development, a result of the development of the philosophies of racism and merchantilism.  It also ignores the attempted enslavement of native American people (this was largely unsuccessfull due to the relative differences in disease immunity in tthe two population groups.  Essentially Africans have a higher resistance to European diseases than native Americans did, so African slaves were less likely to die in droves after coming into contact with Europeans)."
.
Quote


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:
Have a care to whom you speak,lovecrafty...you have stepped into an arena of combat that you are ill prepared for.The fact remains that there ARE minute genetic differences between the European Irish Celts and Scottish Celts but both have phenotypes which are significantly and obviously more Caucasian in the classic sense than are Africans of any stripe.This is one of two reasons why using persons of Caucasoid phenotype faiiled because those whom were pressed into indentured servitude could do more effectively two things that neither the various native populaces nor the African populace could do: stir up greater public sympathy from the general Caucasian masses because--regardless of the cultural differences which softened somewhat over time--the similarity of the skin of the oppressed and the oppressors could evoke public sympathy more readily,and this same similarity of skin would aid recalcitrant indentured servants in escape attempts as they could more easily blend into crowds.You are also making the enormous mistake of blending the practice of making slaves of prisoners of war--an ancient tradition that is not exclusive to race,all you have to do is be on the losing side to qualify--indentured servitude,which is defined in the following manner:"An Indentured Servant is a bonded labourer - a labourer under contract to work for an employer for a specific amount of time, about 7-8 years, to pay off a passage to a new country or home. Typically the employer provided little if any monetary pay, but was responsible for accommodation, food, other essentials, and training."  and treatment of Blacks.General slavery of the African had as its most salient feature the literal denial of the humanity of the African,and imposed NO MORAL OBLIGATION ON THE OWNER OF THE AFRICAN.Indentured servants were still regarded as human.Africans were regarded as subhuman.There can be no more fundamental a difference than this. Furthermore,your statements about slavery are historically inaccurate.European general enslavement of the African was launched because a friar named Las Casas was an advocate of the rapidly dying native people whom were very dark of skin (often times referred to as Moros--Moors,Blacks--by the Spaniards whom encountered them,and oftentimes referred to as "negritos"--little Black people--as well,so even that often used ploy of disguising many natives as not being Black themselves reenforces my argument when the truth is revealed) and rapidly dying under the brutal strain of European slavery.Las Casas pleaded with the King of Spain to spare the native populace,and hit upon the expedient of importing the more robust Africans in 1517. The horrific events of the Celts I recall to have occurred in the late 18th century,early 19th century...like 1780 something up to 1850 something I think it was.African slavery occurred solidly 200 years prior to this,and was still ongoing in various parts of the world at the time that you cite this deplorable behaviour by the Celts whom you specify.However,they are unquestionably still White and Caucasian,and thus would NEVER BE treated as Africans were and are by their contemporary Caucasian counterparts.When you show me records authenticating Celts being forced through the Middle Passages and more,then we'll have something remotely similar to what Africans have endured.To opine anything remotely contrary is not only shoddy scholarship,it's classically ignorant.

What you and the people whom you seem to have aligned yourself with continue to either be ignorant of (in your case,you literally haven't a clue of what I am about to say) or present to shield and advance your racism (everybody else whom I have encountered during these kinds of discussions) is this: Arabic slavery predated European slavery.Furthermore,the White Arabs themselves were checked and countered in the very midst of the Africans whom these Arabs were also enslaving...thus their cries of brotherhood are historically false,and are instead the cries of the conqueror being bereft of his prey and being likewise reduced to the conqueredThis slavery of their commenced prior to recorded history,and is exemplified in the stele of Pharoahs like Narmer and Menes.My mother's great great great grandfather's people are directly descended from many of the people whom resisted the Arabs in ancient Africa,and she took a picture standing next to the stele depicting the scenes that I just indicated to you that took place.Furthermore,the ancient (and first) city of Memphis that Menes erected is a literal tribute to exactly this resistance,and no matter how much you or anyone else may wish to the contrary the truth of this is etched in death defying stone.The White Asian slave raids and invasion was ameliorated only by the steadfast resistance of Africans themselves and the colossal success of "Islamized' Africans like the Almohades and the Almoravids.This ignored chapter of history is of the first importance,because it is HERE that slavery first takes on the specific characteristics of racism.Europeans simply intensified it and placed their own cultural spin on it.I do separate you from those whom deliberately advance this agenda of obfuscation by hiding these facts,however your own actions--by instantly repudiating DR. WILLIAMS without reading his works,and then endorsing those whom denounce his work--clearly brands you as a supporter of this mindset,whether it's intentional or not.

Quote by lovecrafty:

"You're still ignoring the very simple fact that an isolationist culture that seeks only to perserve it's own heritage will always be a stagnant culture, and there is simply no way that the Wakandans can be both progressive and isolationist."

SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

I answered this directly several times.I am beginning to wonder if you read the entirety of my posts.Here is my response to you:"1) The first and most overwhelmingly important issue was the security of their state.This meant developing warriors whom could withstand ANY threat,maintaining the utmost secrecy as to the very existence of Wakanda itself,and developing the military art (including spy networks) to the finest point.This same circumstance made it MANDATORY TO THEIR SURVIVAL that they also don't help their African neighbors whom in any way advocated anything that would compromise the security and secrecy of their nation.This includes the traditional African friendliness to foreigners.In one fell swoop you have the answer to both the technological superiority of Wakanda AND her xenophobia...

2) .They already had the advantage of superior knowledge as passed down to them by their ancestors,and then they had the advantage of the vibranium meteorite at some point in their history to amplify their advantage. Their natural energy expressions would be what we would miscall "green technology" and amplified by the unique inventions made possible by a commingling of their superior science and their access to vibranium.And population control? Lovecrafty,WAR IS AN EXCELLENT MEANS OF POPULATION CONTROL.We can be assured that Wakanda has used the ancient practice of sending spies and envoys to live amongst neighbors under assumed identities,reporting back to Wakanda but rarely returning to LIVE in Wakanda after having been exposed to the outside world for so long.As for kids, I am very much of the mindset that they  mandated more effective versions of birth control pills and shots earlier than the rest of the world. I remind you that the Industrial Revolution got its impetus from the labor that was provided by slavery,thus amplifying their need for manpower and tying much of their technological growth to it."

Now,if you simply disagree,then we have reached an impasse on this issue of Wakanda's history,but NOT because I haven't given a very plausible response which squares with the history of the region,but instead because you refuse to accept that a fictional people might have benefitted from real world events and altered their behaviour accordingly.

Quote of supreme illuminati
Even without citing DR. CHANCELLOR'S work,you didn't answer the fact that your "justifications" for your dislike of RH and RH BP continued to evolve as subsequent discussions proved detrimental to the positions you previously took.You flatly stated that RH made a blanket statement denigrating all White readers of BP.I have never read such a post or even such an inclination from RH about "all White" anybody,and you couldn't recall specifically what he stated.You just remembered the part about dissing all White fans of BP.Well,I invited you to ask the ultimate authority on all things RH...the man himself.Simply ASK.He reads this forum...IT'S HIS FORUM.You never availed yourself of this option.This too you can and should answer without doing yourself and us the disservice of trying to narrow my arguments to only one of the sources I have cited,when in fact I have made multiple presentations each aimed at what I felt could be positions of yours that could be empirically refuted.

lovecrafty's response:
This isn't fair, I thought we agreed to drop this.  Since the old forum is gone, there is no way to recall Mr. Hudlin's exact quotes, this argument boils down to I remember this, you remember that, and neither of us can prove anything.  I remember posting to this forum in it's original form when BP first appeared, and I remember being very upset by the dismissive and race-baiting arguments that Mr. Hudlin used to justify ignoring continuity.  And honestly, I wouldn't exactly take the word of "Muddy Boots" on what he did or did not say, because his own behavior calls his ability to be honest and self-critical into doubt.


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:

So,you're saying that you don't remember what Mr. Hudlin said exactly,but you hold that his INTENTIONS are still the same.I am of the opinion that when it comes to a man's intention,if we face an absence of concrete evidence,then we go to the source to determine the truth.What you're saying is that you wouldn't credit Mr. Hudlin's word even when it comes to his own intentions,something which nobody on this planet can ever know as well as he does.Okay,we disagree.Immensely.If someone told me that you are intentionally racist,and you told me that you're not and here's why,I would pay greater attention to your INTENT,even if you took unwise ACTION.Furthermore,your clarification would go a long way toward resolving the issue and dropping it,for me anyway.You are saying that you are determined to hold a grudge against RH no matter what he says or does from now on.That,lovecrafty,is evidence of precisely the kind of intractible illogic that you claim to despise.It also fits nicely with the pattern of behaviour that you have displayed so far,which is:

1. Slamming RH BP without having read the book.At what point did you stop reading the series? Whatever that point was,your subsequent conclusions have been largely refuted by the series itself. Slamming something that you have little knowledge about is generally a very ignorant thing to do,in the classical sense.

2.Slamming DR. WILLIAMS' book--which you likewise haven't read--as being "fringe theory",simply based upon the opinions of detractors,at least one of whom was so far gone as to say that DR. WILLIAMS' notes aren't annotated,when I am looking at 4 pages of annotations as I type this post.This also is indefensible ignorance,for at least the online detractors READ THE BOOK,you however couldn't be bothered with doing so prior to taking up a hardline position which you continue defend as if it's in any way defensible,plausible,ethical,moral,honest,or laudable to do so.

3.Misconstruing indentured servitude for slavery and the odious treatment of Celts as being remotely similar to the subhuman treatment of Africans.

4.An avowed willingness to hold a de facto grudge against RH no matter what he says to you,as you have stated in your

Quote supreme illuminati
I refer you to THE MIDNIGHT SONS UNIVERSE,the current NEW UNIVERSE,and THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE lines...all of which can be looked at as what they are: new universes with an entire universe of Year One stories,including (in the case of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE) complete and more modern reimaginings of current heroes and heroines.I might also recall to your mind that STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY did exactly what you berate RH for and RH cited them as inspirations for his approach when LEE/KIRBY re-did the SILVER SURFER'S origin WITHOUT THE FF.How can you reconcile your positions with empircal fact when you are surrounded with such potent and concrete evidence to the contrary? And note,DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS' work is nowhere in sight..and neither are your answers to these burning questions.

lovecrafty's response
Hudlin's Black Panther is not set in a new universe, it's set in the 616 universe, so i don't understand your point here at all.  I don't know anything about this Lee/Kirby Silver Surfer graphic novel.  I've never heard of it, never read it, and never seen it referenced anywhere but Mr. Hudlin's letter.  Also, Silver Surfer's origin never did involve the FF, so it's a rather moot point.  The fact is that T'Challa took out the FF before he took out Klaw, as a warm-up excercise (but they escaped due to the fact that T'Challa hadn't prepared for Wyatt Wingfoot).  If Mr. Hudlin wanted to completely rewrite the history of Black Panther, he should have done as Mr. Card did, and created ULTIMATE Black Panther.


SUPREME ILLUMINATION:
You don't understand my point here? Well,you misquoted me in the first place.My point was to refute the fact that contend that Marvel doesn't do Year One stories,and I pointed out that they invent literally whole universes of Year One stories.Even you conceded this point with your reference to Mr. Card and ULTIMATE BLACK PANTHER.Please read my post again with this in mind and my intentions will become transparently clear.




« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 05:37:23 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2006, 05:38:37 pm »
ummm,my responses to your post,lovecrafty,are unfortunately within the purple box,they are labeled under SUPREME ILLUMINATION.As I finished the post,I read your response to Wise Son,and...

quote by lovecrafty:
"On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist. You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief. I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though. Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom. Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it). I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
Quote

This post is excellent news,lovecrafty.I look forward to talking to you after you have actually read the back issues and caught up.And NO lovecrafty,I NEVER said DOOM was racist nor did I say that RH said that DOOM was racist.In fact in our PM we BOTH AGREED THAT DOOM IS "ELITIST" AND FEELS THAT ANYONE WHOM IS NOT DOOM IS BY DEFINITION INFERIOR TO HIM.You indicated that the Wakandans were other than human.I pointed out that DOOM hypothesized that Wakandans may have a low-grade mutant strain in them.Now,if you opining that Wakandans are other than human because of their achievements despite their isolationism but feel that YOU'RE NOT RACIST,how then can you conclude that DOOM WAS BEING PORTRAYED AS A RACIST WHEN HE SAID THE SAME THING YOU DID? I never implied that either of you are racist. Our point of diversion about your unwillingness to "suspend disbelief" has been bridged by Wise Son,and basically that's all I wanted. I don't care how you got there,just consider a different opinion,whether it's closer to mine or Wise Son's or W'kabi's,I don't car
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Offline kitamu Re

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2006, 06:16:16 pm »
Quote
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.

do you want a cookie

Quote
I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.

another person who hasn't read the book but wants to talk ad naeusm about something he hasn't read in over a year. what's wrong with this picture people :-\

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 12:09:23 am »
kitamu Re said..."do you want a cookie". ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Wise Son

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2006, 01:59:39 am »
And this here is where I get to restate my original point:  Which makes Black Panther cooler and more powerful:

"T'Challa singlehandly rasied a typical African nation to the status of 21st Centruy Superpower in a decade."

"T'Challa was born into an advanced society that owes it's advanced state to the influence of an alien rock and a supernatural entity."

I can definitely understand why some people would prefer option B, especially black people who feel a connection to this image of a powerful, mythic Africa.   I really dug the show Roar (about Scottish resistance to Roman invasion) even though it was really quite bad, and so I understand how appealing that sort of story can be. Hopefully you can also understand why someone who found the rugged individualism of the original version a powerful concept but had no personal investment in the idea of a mythic Africa would prefer Option A.
I think maybe even us option B people could go for A if it ended there, but find the fact that T'Challa had to go to learn from the White Man  in order to 'civilise' his country annoying. It's also a repeating theme, one step removed from Tarzan (White baby is left in the Africa jungle and becomes the single-most powerful creature there), and carries in it's structure and repetition a pretty demoralizing subtext. If it was just that T'Challa was this awesome individual, and only went abroad to better understand the outside world's culture, it would be easier.
It'd even be easy to resolve the difference between the two.  Who is the Panther God?  Where did he come from?  Perhaps someday we will see Black Panther: The End and find out that T'Challa eventually transcends mere mortality and the limitations of time and space and becomes the Panther God, guding his people throughout history.
That could be a good idea, though I'd taken a Pratchett-type view of the Panther God - that it wouldn't be powerful if it's worshippers weren't powerful and numerous. I see the Panther God as being strong because the Wakandans worship it, rather than just being one bad-ass God. But yeah, T'Challa is having to do more than any previous Panther, maybe eventually earning a status as the greatest of them all, so God-hood would be a great climax to his personal story, while Wakanda's goes on.
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
Excellent! Everyone's a winner!  ;DYou won't regret it, especially if you stopped after the first arc. It's been a pleasure watching Reggie grow as a writer with each issue, and the Two The Hard Way and Wedding arcs really do improve issue-on-issue, as well as benefitting from brilliant art. Soul Power in The House of M is also a really fun one-off. Also, like I said, the continuity gets a lot better afterwards, as Reggie is writing the title as a proper part of the 616 universe, rather than a completely independent mini-series (as the Who Is The Black Panther arc was originally intended). Despite all the continuity complaints, I don't know that I've heard one that didn't originate from that first arc.
I'm also glad because this has been a good discussion, and your opinions on current and future issues would be interesting as well.
I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though.  Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom.  Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it).  I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
Sure, read it, that's the best. FWIW, it has been discussed extensively here, and Yaw provided concrete evidence that Reggie's Doom was in-continuity and in-character. Not sure which thread it was, though, but if you skim the longer threads in the BLack Panther section, you'll probably find the scans Yaw posted.

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Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2006, 05:04:35 am »
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
He is a persuasive bastard, isn't he?  He is, after all, an Honorary Wakandan.  Welcome to Black Panther.  Remember, Hudlin's Black Panther is the Black Panther. ;)  Seriously, I hope you like it.

I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2006, 05:16:18 am »
On a sidenote, Wise Son, I have to tell you that you're arguments have been extremely persuassive and you've convinced me that Hudlin's Wakanda could exist.  You have sucessfully overcome whatever it was that was preventing me from suspending belief.  I still think the continutity problems of the series are problematic (because I'mm a continuity junkie), and I still think Mr. Hudlin's actions as a comic writing professional have been troubling, but I think you've convinced me to resubscribe to Black Panther.
He is a persuasive bastard, isn't he?  He is, after all, an Honorary Wakandan.  Welcome to Black Panther.  Remember, Hudlin's Black Panther is the Black Panther. ;)  Seriously, I hope you like it.

 :D lovecrafty has nothing to hang his head about there. I went round and round with Wise Son some time back about something I've since forgotten about, but I haven't forgotten that I was made to yeild to his persistent persuasive argument  :D
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2006, 05:43:02 am »
Ok this thread relates to the black panther comic book only because of the use of wakanda, tchalla and the wakandans intelligence and technology. Sigh why can't these long hybrid political threads be moved to the politics section. You all have maintained civility and good discussion.

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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2006, 07:36:35 am »
We're now running in circles here, guys.
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2006, 10:38:09 am »
Ayo,I made some powerful points in the post I have with the purple box on this page,and in regards to DOOM..for the third time now,let me repeat exactly what I said (which is ALSO on this page.Maybe lovecrafty should read what I actually said before carrying on about what I didn't say...exactly how he did with DR. WILLIAMS' works and up until now,RH BP.Thanx,Wise Son,for encouraging our hopefully soon-to-be-reborn BP fan,lovecrafty) with precisely my unchanged positiion on the subject:


Quote:lovecrafty
"I'm still a bit pisssed off about what Supreme Illuminati has told me about Doom's appearance though. Dr. Doom is the guy who end apartheid and mandated racial harmony when he successfully conquered the world in the early eighties, before voluntarily cedeing control of it (having decided that trying to conquer the world was more intellectually interesting that managing his own personal utopia) in Emperor Doom. Of course, one can always say "Doombot with a glitch that caused it to be racist." (the idea of a racist AI is actually kinda funny when you think about it). I should probably read the issue though, rather than rely on second-hand accounts.

Quote SUPREME ILLUMINATION

This post is excellent news,lovecrafty.I look forward to talking to you after you have actually read the back issues and caught up.And NO lovecrafty,I NEVER said DOOM was racist nor did I say that RH said that DOOM was racist.In fact in our PM we BOTH AGREED THAT DOOM IS "ELITIST" AND FEELS THAT ANYONE WHOM IS NOT DOOM IS BY DEFINITION INFERIOR TO HIM.You indicated that the Wakandans were other than human.I pointed out that DOOM hypothesized that Wakandans may have a low-grade mutant strain in them.Now,if you opining that Wakandans are other than human because of their achievements despite their isolationism but feel that YOU'RE NOT RACIST,how then can you conclude that DOOM WAS BEING PORTRAYED AS A RACIST WHEN HE SAID THE SAME THING YOU DID? I never implied that either of you are racist. Our point of diversion about your unwillingness to "suspend disbelief" has been bridged by Wise Son,and basically that's all I wanted. I don't care how you got there,just consider a different opinion,whether it's closer to mine or Wise Son's or W'kabi's,I don't care."
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Re: SUPREME ILLUMINATI'S CIVIL DISCUSSION WITH LOVECRAFTY AND ANY OTHERS...
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2006, 02:24:32 pm »
I picked up the TPB of "The Bride", and issues #19-22 this morning and have finished them.  I might eventually go back and fill in the rest of the hole in my collection (#7-#13), but there was no trade for #7-9 (title?) at my LCS, and since "Bad Mutha" is about vampires (I hate vampires, I wish Marvel had left them extinct) it's not high priority (I will probably end up picking it up simply because it has both Brother Voodoo and Luke Cage, and how awesome is that?).

I'm going to write a seperate post about issue #19, which I found highly entertaining.