Talking Race: Getting into trouble on othere message boards for even doing so.

[Moose100]

This is a great site for black comics readers to discuss things they cannot discuss on other websites in general; kudos to Hudlin and his staff for this site!!!

Im new to this world of internet comic boards posting but decided to take the plunge when I read some racially charged commentary(not racist) on comicboards.com towards Hudlin's run on BP.  I never intended to go in and comment on race but the things I saw tipped my hand to say something. I was hearing stuff like.."he's too perfect", "hes too arrogant" "he talks down to everybody"... and so on. It just made me groan.

Heres the links to the white hot debate:

http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?trd=061216185607
http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?trd=061219012133
http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?trd=061220115715
http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?trd=061222012913

This was a large brouhaha that lasted about a week and a half. You be the judge.

Anyhow I have some questions for the sake of discussion:

1.) Why do you think that the characterization of blacks in a strong light is hard to accept by some whites?  You would think writing a black character as being an authentic black person being a real superhero and not just a sidekick or fodder for rescue/assistance would be more authentic across the board.

2.) Speaking of authenticity; and I say this with the utmost respect to the creator of these black charactors as they are truly legends..but do you think that whites writing a black character is equal to "comics blackface". ( Hopefully im not being to controversial!! lol) Or is it a matter of a writer being good enough and talented enough to write these black characters authentically.

3.)  I think the persons that are offended somehow by Hudlin's writng of this character as an "authentic african/african-american" takes non-blacks/those offended out of there comfort zones as the character and the book itself was written comfortably in terms of not offending these people.

I think that the things I find in Hudlins run as an African-American are refereshing because to me it comments in comics fashion on the things I and possibly other african-americans think about and experience on a daily basis. I feel like Im"at home" when I read this book.

BTW Im also new to the BP mythology in general and I have Hudlin to thank for my interest in this character.

What are your thoughts??

[Jenn]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

[supreme illuminati]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

On the issue of comic board combat,Jenn---aka the Mistress of Mayhem--is one of our most illustrious and knowledgeable.We have a veritable battalion here which includes--but is not limited to-- Yaw (the Lethal Logician),bluezulu (Chaka Zulu in Cerulean),Rutog (Oracle of All Things Ororo,Seer of the Storm),Mastermynd (the Mangler of Mental Midgets),sinjection (TheSable Skinned Slayer) and semi-retired OGs like Sam Wilson (Smoove Smack a Sukka Sam).I abstain from board-to-board battles...I don't care enough about the opinions of those "others" to bother.I DO enjoy debates of a civil and intelligent nature,but I tend to not employ the rock em sock em roughouse methodology of Jenn,and up-and-comers like kitamu Re (Krakka Killa) and Toya the Terrible,She Who Invented the Fiendish Philosophy of Brutalizing Brats by way of "Torture With Facts".

There are several other keyboard killahs all up in here,but I don't have time to single them out for their outstanding contributions...and they are more qualified to help you than I.Glad to see you dawg...keep it comin and stay with us.

[JLI Jesse]

As one of the few white people here (I'm assuming, but let me know if I am wrong) I can try to give me thoughts on your questions.  These might not necessarily be my views but instead how I think the majority of white readers might feel.  I'm just back from happy hour so bare with me if I ramble or if I'm not as clear as I should be.

1.) Why do you think that the characterization of blacks in a strong light is hard to accept by some whites?  You would think writing a black character as being an authentic black person being a real superhero and not just a sidekick or fodder for rescue/assistance would be more authentic across the board.

I'm not sure this is always the case.  Characters like Steel seem to have a strong following despite being back (again, I might be wrong, please let me know if I am).  Most have seemed to have enjoyed his part in 52 and race has not been a part of it.  I think what some white people might have a problem with is not the fact that a black character is strong, but that it might be presented in a way such as having a black character best a white character for the express purpose of showing that they are equal/superior.  Of course the bad guys come in all colors and shapes (damn, those skrulls) but sometimes (and again, I am not saying this about Reggies book) it seems like comic fans get beaten over the head that the black character beat the white character rather than the good guy beat the bad guy.  Of course race is always an issue but having a white character being racist or at the very least openly ignorant seems to be overused, when saying "see, they underestimate him but he is a strong black man/woman!"

2.) Speaking of authenticity; and I say this with the utmost respect to the creator of these black charactors as they are truly legends..but do you think that whites writing a black character is equal to "comics blackface". ( Hopefully im not being to controversial!! lol) Or is it a matter of a writer being good enough and talented enough to write these black characters authentically.

While not a creator of a black character, I'll give it a short answer.  I think all people have some trouble writing a character that is different from what they know.  I often cringe at TV shows featuring a jewish family.  It is easy to tell which shows have jewish creators and which do not.  Some writers (in tv, comics, and books) can write characters from different backgrounds and some can't.

[Gavri_El]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

......That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

Don't hold back sister!    Stronger than a triple expresso, but completely on point. 



_{Note to self.....  Don't ever piss off Jenn!}    Whew.

[Daoud]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

Exactly!  Jenn, your analysis is always a pleasure to read but this post was particularly incisive.

Many of the people who criticize Reg's BP over continuity remind me of those white people who insist the American Civil War was fought over states rights and the slavery thing was just incidental.  Just replace states rights with 'continuity' and slavery with 'a powerful black character'.  I find the respect T'challa presently recieves more inportant than minor continuity gaffes.

Though Reg, if you're reading this, watch you continuity.

Excelsior!
Daoud

[Mastrmynd]

All Hail Queen Jenn!!
For she speaketh the truth and the truth will set u all free.

*looks at Supreme*
Thanks bruh. I got a nickname. Finally.  I knew if i put in some work, you all would luv me... "you luv me, u really luv me."

Mastermynd (the Mangler of Mental Midgets)

(ps: there isn't an E in Mastrmynd)

[Curtis Metcalf]

This is a great site for black comics readers to discuss things they cannot discuss on other websites in general; kudos to Hudlin and his staff for this site!!!

Welcome aboard.  Glad you like it.  Tell your friends. 

1.) Why do you think that the characterization of blacks in a strong light is hard to accept by some whites?  You would think writing a black character as being an authentic black person being a real superhero and not just a sidekick or fodder for rescue/assistance would be more authentic across the board.

First off, I agree with Jenn except I'll go one further.  Beyond their level of comfort, I think that works like BP challenge some people's fundamental assumptions whether they're aware of them or not.  Some of them are able to adjust their world view, most get angry and irrational.  I remember the same kinds of criticism being leveled at Reggie when Boomerang came out.  Some critics charged that its black business world was unrealistic, a racist fantasy, without once questioning whether their reactions simply reflected their own ignorance.  I guess they had never heard of Fashion Fair cosmetics.  The most radical stance of all is not portraying white people as evil, it's simply ignoring them altogether. 

2.) Speaking of authenticity; and I say this with the utmost respect to the creator of these black charactors as they are truly legends..but do you think that whites writing a black character is equal to "comics blackface". ( Hopefully im not being too controversial!! lol) Or is it a matter of a writer being good enough and talented enough to write these black characters authentically.

Well, to extend that line of reasoning to its logical extreme, nobody could really write any character different from him or herself authentically.  Is writing a character of a different race fundamentally different than writing a character of say, a different gender?  So, I'm going to say that it is a matter of being talented enough -- imaginative, empathetic, and honest enough -- to do it well.   Those guys writing The Wire seem to be able to handle it, for instance.  Not saying it's easy...

By the way, I claim there is no such thing as too controversial for discussion.  It's having the discipline to do it respectfully that makes it work.  Thanks for asking thought provoking questions.

[Yaw]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

I agree and want to add that its not just whites.  There are plenty other non-whites who fall into that line of thinking, especially good ol knee-grows who want to fit in and avoid race topics.

[bluezulu]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

------------------------
Wow I believe you are my long lost twin sister seperated at birth that I never knew about. I would like to add something to this thread but jenn said everything I would have said, exactly like I would have said it but better. lol.

[bluezulu]

Disclaimer: the following observation is not an observation on the entire white race. I shouldn't have to say "some white people" every two minute. That being said, if what I say offends you, then you're probably one of the crackerbrats that I can't stand anyway.

In a sentence, segregation is okay as long as white people are okay with it.

To expound: white people feel comfortable in their comfort zone. They feel as long as they don't say "nigger", they're not racist (at the same time, completely ignoring institutionalized racism). And Because they're not racist, we should all be basking to glow in the white man's tender love. Anything less than that gets their asses up. Back when I was an X-Fan moderator, there were people who were angry, calling me a racist because I attended a historically black college (Florida A&M). I mean, how DARE I attend an institution that's predominately black! Why wouldn't I want to go to school with white people? And that in itself is a racist mindset. These are the same people who will fiercely argue against white privilege, or support "colorblindness", and will label anyone who doesn't fit their Black History Month By Way of Burger King pattern of a good Negro as "part of the problem", or "an embarrassment to your race" (see: lovecrafty).

Hudlin, who helps run a black channel, writes black movies and writes a comic for a black audience is the thorn in these people's asses. Why? Because he can. Because he doesn't kiss lily white ass, he's deemed a racist. What the hell racist has Hudlin ever said? Reginald Hudlin alive and breathing pisses off crackerbrats. People like them don't see the difference between Hudlin and OJ. Oh, they WANT to like him. They really do. That's why they can't stop reading the comic. And oh God, if he would just smile a little more, be a little more gentle, bow a little more, scrape a little more...they'd love him. But he doesn't, and he's STILL one of the most talked about writers in the business, good or bad. And that's why you can't talk about race on comic boards. Because we all know what's up, but they'll never admit to it.

I agree and want to add that its not just whites.  There are plenty other non-whites who fall into that line of thinking, especially good ol knee-grows who want to fit in and avoid race topics.

--------------------
And you know I hate giving the haters on other board extra shine. Hey shine that is exactly the case of the poster effect who is proud to say he is black but goes all out to bash reg's panther run despite never reading it. He even goes so far to have it in his sig line that the black panther is the worse book and needs to be cancelled. Now come on just because your black does not mean you have to like this book, but come on having working black talent at the big two can't be nothing but positive as long as the writers intent is to show us in a positive light, and who can say reg, has not done that. So if you are black and go out your way to hate on this and other black work...what does that say about you?

[D- Ruck]

2.) Speaking of authenticity; and I say this with the utmost respect to the creator of these black charactors as they are truly legends..but do you think that whites writing a black character is equal to "comics blackface". ( Hopefully im not being to controversial!! lol) Or is it a matter of a writer being good enough and talented enough to write these black characters authentically.

With me it's always more about the quality of work rather than the ethnicity of the writer.  If a writer is talented and sincere in his depiction of a character then there's no problem at all.   For instance, I was amazed with Bendis's depiction of Cage in the New Avengers.  I don't think I'd want anybody else writing Cage but Bendis.  He displays every facet of Cage's character perfectly, being blackman is a major part of who Cage is, but he brings out the unwavering sense of justice and willingness to take stand against almost anything to do the right thing.  Anyway, I'll shut up, lol.

[Yaw]

--------------------
And you know I hate giving the haters on other board extra shine. Hey shine that is exactly the case of the poster effect who is proud to say he is black but goes all out to bash reg's panther run despite never reading it. He even goes so far to have it in his sig line that the black panther is the worse book and needs to be cancelled. Now come on just because your black does not mean you have to like this book, but come on having working black talent at the big two can't be nothing but positive as long as the writers intent is to show us in a positive light, and who can say reg, has not done that. So if you are black and go out your way to hate on this and other black work...what does that say about you?

LOL, when I typed that I thought of mentioning his name but decided against it.  But let's be clear here, being black and not supporting Hudlin's work doesn't speak any less of you.  I clearly understand being a PRiest fan and feeling that Hudlin has somehow negated or in someway belittled your favorite artist's work.  I can also understand simply not liking his style of writing.  I've said it before that I don't like Priest's style very much.  But as you stated, its the extent to which the poster Effect goes to as well as other things he says.  Plenty of Black posters on BP message board don't really  care for Hudlin's work but at the same time do not go to extraordinary lengths to degrade the book or the author.  Effect makes it known all the time that he is Black and that he hates the book and thinks Hudlin should be fired but admits to not knowing JACK about BP history.

WHAT PART OF THE GAME IS THIS???

Like you said, you have to question that sort of behavior.  It reminds me of the time-honored house negro mentality.  I mean damn if you don't read a book, know nothing about its history and dislike the author's writing style, WHY CONTINUE JOINING IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT?  If I'm not mistaken he even said he wasn't a big Storm fan so even that avenue is closed.  There is no reason for him to even think about that book yet he makes his opinion known about how terrible it is in every post.  sadly this is the type of behavior despite race that is evident amongst so many BP haters.  Everytime I mention this, detractors will say I'm using the "strawmen" argument. 

"SHEEEEEEEIIITTTT!"  (c) Clay Davis

I can make a list of BP haters who have admitted to not faithfully reading every issue but continue to post negative thoughts on the book.  The sad part is that many of them post on multiple posts across various boards.

[Yaw]

2.) Speaking of authenticity; and I say this with the utmost respect to the creator of these black charactors as they are truly legends..but do you think that whites writing a black character is equal to "comics blackface". ( Hopefully im not being to controversial!! lol) Or is it a matter of a writer being good enough and talented enough to write these black characters authentically.

With me it's always more about the quality of work rather than the ethnicity of the writer.  If a writer is talented and sincere in his depiction of a character then there's no problem at all.   For instance, I was amazed with Bendis's depiction of Cage in the New Avengers.  I don't think I'd want anybody else writing Cage but Bendis.  He displays every facet of Cage's character perfectly, being blackman is a major part of who Cage is, but he brings out the unwavering sense of justice and willingness to take stand against almost anything to do the right thing.  Anyway, I'll shut up, lol.

I agree, Bendis wrote the first depiction that I liked.  Even Priest's Cage was shallow to me.  Reggie's brief depiction seemed to stem from Bendis so I liked that as well.  However I disagree that I only want Bendis writing him.  I liked Reggie's version alot and think the vernacular flowed a little more naturally.  Sometimes Cage's vernacular under Bendis feels a little forced and inauthentic.  Also Bendis married Cage to a white woman  .  While I liked the evolution of their relationship (because Bendis is a good writer) I still have my qualms about it.  For one, I would like to see more Black intraracial marriages.  Also Cage being presented as a man who possesses a strong sense of Black community awareness as well as a strong Black identity, seems to fall short when looking at his wife.  I mean it is not as if it doesn't happen in reality (yes I know it does) but that sort of thing always seems to be an oxymoron (in reality).  Sistas can't get no love? I would have been all over Monica Rambeau or Misty Knight.

[stanleyballard]

Agree with the earlier comment that some people have an issue with BP being royalty and being a gentleman....they prefer stereotypical images...there was a similar comment recently under BP # 23's comment thread on www.uncannyxmen.net where one said. "......now if BP starts to have lots of imperfections and starts to beat his wife."  Somehow that hypothetical synopsis was acceptable if he became abusive and disrespected women; It's sad and pathetic that anyone would think that is the only way to make BP interesting or acceptable to them.

@ Yaw...agree 100%!