Author Topic: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.  (Read 8859 times)

APEXABYSS

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2014, 11:46:25 pm »
Damn, APEXABYSS, not only can you draw so well to fill a page but you are deep!  8)

Cool, Battle! I’m super-appreciative for the shout-out! I think you guys & gals are far beyond my pubescence. I’m jus’ a student (of life & comic “penciling"). I'm trying to reach a level of mastery in all things. aren't we all! 
I’m a big fan of your “animated-avatars”(is that the right description?). I really dug the one with the purple puppy. Nice! The main-page? That’s deep, bredren!
You have no idea how much I look-up to the folks on the HEF. Yep!

Hey, Battle, any thoughts on the thread topic?

APEXABYSS

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 11:56:54 pm »
Apexabyss, I knew you would find the book review interesting.  ;D
As always you raise fascinating thoughts.

Oh, on the ping-pong analogy, I actually didn't make that up. The Talmud describes a vision of Hell as the soul being pounded from one end of the universe to the other, back and forth. But for a limited duration. As part of the cleansing process. Except for really really bad people, Hell is temporary.

I have no real views on these matters. Maybe Hell is "just" the revelation for all souls to see of everything you've ever done wrong. Contrasted with your potential. The ultimate in humiliation and shame. Arggg.


No diggity, michaelintp! I agree with your break-down. I figured you'd have something interesting to contribute. they don't come @ you hard for nothin'! lol

The Talmud but definitely not the Torah! Ha- that’s about all it says about the “judgment!”  Reward and punishment is still universal law.
But, yeah, the Quran also speaks of a temporary hell.

Okay, hell can be temporary but heaven is eternal? Right-on! 

Offline Battle

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2014, 08:43:11 am »
Damn, APEXABYSS, not only can you draw so well to fill a page but you are deep!  8)


Cool, Battle! I’m super-appreciative for the shout-out! I think you guys & gals are far beyond my pubescence. I’m jus’ a student (of life & comic “penciling"). I'm trying to reach a level of mastery in all things. aren't we all! 
I’m a big fan of your “animated-avatars”(is that the right description?). I really dug the one with the purple puppy. Nice! The main-page? That’s deep, bredren!
You have no idea how much I look-up to the folks on the HEF. Yep!

Hey, Battle, any thoughts on the thread topic?





Thanks for any of the compliments, APEXABYSS:)
I do Graphic Design not exactly animated avatars, however, I cannot take credit for someone else's work...  the animated puppy is actually a 'Zergling' interpreted by the talented Car Bot Animations for a computer video game:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarbotAnimations

All I did was insert all the key frames into Flash and did lay out the text which is what Graphic Designers do.  ;D


About the topic:

Whenever you have an argument about Hell between Christians and Atheists, you are arguing about constructs and belief systems.  I don't have an opinion other than encouraging the participants to be aware of the real issue:
Knowing the difference between religion and spirituality.

APEXABYSS

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2014, 06:07:11 am »
Damn, APEXABYSS, not only can you draw so well to fill a page but you are deep!  8)


Cool, Battle! I’m super-appreciative for the shout-out! I think you guys & gals are far beyond my pubescence. I’m jus’ a student (of life & comic “penciling"). I'm trying to reach a level of mastery in all things. aren't we all! 
I’m a big fan of your “animated-avatars”(is that the right description?). I really dug the one with the purple puppy. Nice! The main-page? That’s deep, bredren!
You have no idea how much I look-up to the folks on the HEF. Yep!

Hey, Battle, any thoughts on the thread topic?



About the topic:

Whenever you have an argument about Hell between Christians and Atheists, you are arguing about constructs and belief systems.  I don't have an opinion other than encouraging the participants to be aware of the real issue:
Knowing the difference between religion and spirituality.


Spirituality? My bad, my friend, but your words betray you. Lets break-down the word, shall we?
In ancient times they did not speak English so they did not use the new-age word “spirit.”

Words used before the English term was adopted.
Hebrew= ruach
Greek= aether (also means ‘burn’) “my soul’s on fire”
Egyptian (KMT)= Ka- Ba- Ib

Spire- or spirit originally meant “breathe”- “to breathe”-  “soul” or “wind/ air”

Here’s where it gets interesting
A “blade of grass” is known as a “spire” or “spear”.  The “steeple” of a church is also known as spire. KMT= obelisk or tekken

Spear/ spire= blade (Romans called it a “gladius”= Gladiator means “spear-men” or “swordsmen”.) Remember the t.v. show “American Gladiator”- they didn’t use any spears or swords so technically not gladiators. Well, they kinda used spears.

Sphere = body

Ritual- is an abbreviated term for “rites of passage” which literally means to “cut-away.” the term originally comes from the practice of circumcision when the for-skin is removed, using a spire/ spear/ blade.

Just about all ancient cultures practiced human-sacrifice, at one point or another. Sacrifices almost always involved cutting (cutting-away) the throat or piercing the side, with a, you guessed it- spire.
The poor bastards being sacrificed would die of suffocation. The breathe, wind/air or spire/ spirit would escape their body causing death. This was known as a “SPIRITUAL” or spire-ritual ( to cut-away the soul).

When jesus was pierced in the side, on the cross, that was symbolic of a spiritual.
Hey, say, what’s that soldier holding in his hand? Is that a- a- a spire/ spear?
 

Point is - when someone tells me their spiritual & not religious or that there's a difference, I agree. There is a huge difference. They are basically saying they’re ready to be sacrificed or have already been sacrificed. I’m not spiritual, at all! Nor religious!

Again, don’t get caught-up in words, names or titles. They mean nothing.  “what’s in a name?” ~Shake-speare 

I know, I go hard. I’ll chill

(my #1 fav movie)
everybody needs somebody. U-U-U-

in the morninin'....
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 06:08:51 am by APEXABYSS »

Offline Battle

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2014, 03:45:19 pm »
>>>APEXABYSS


Like I've written before...

You're deep!  ;D


How about religion?  Can you break religion down?


EDIT:  Whooops!   Disregard my last question.  Looks like you already answered that question!  :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 10:06:49 pm by Battle »

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 11:23:24 am »
I don't know about spirituality. To me, it sounds like a desire to enjoy the feel-good benefits of religion, without any of the obligations or responsibilities.

Of course, I am half-kidding. There are people who are in touch with the Divine Spirit, mystics and the like.  Though I think a lot of people who describe themselves as "spiritual" do not fit into this category.
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 11:35:07 am »
No diggity, michaelintp! I agree with your break-down. I figured you'd have something interesting to contribute. they don't come @ you hard for nothin'! lol

 ;)

Interesting that the Qur'an also describes Hell as temporary. While I've read it a couple of times, I didn't recall that. Of course as time goes on I seem to recall less and less, haha.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 11:36:50 am by michaelintp »
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

APEXABYSS

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 01:16:30 am »
Well, it’s the zeitgeist. When a person says they’re “spiritual“- we totally understand what they mean. there was a time when they used the term “spirited”-  jus’ by changing the suffix... the nature of the word changes. we know words, terms & interpretations can change over time & that it’s all about context.

The origin of the word addresses a specific brand of belief- which is sacrifice. It’s no nitpicking it’s showing a broader scope.

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2014, 08:32:21 pm »
(my #1 fav movie)
everybody needs somebody. U-U-U-
in the morninin'....

Oh, hahahaha,just opened this on my computer ... didn't notice it on my phone. 

I'm doin' cartwheels!  8)
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Atheist and Christian argue about hell (in a Starbucks). Atheist wins.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2014, 08:34:41 pm »
Apexabyss, it makes sense that "spirit" is related to breath. One need only look to the Biblical account of the creation of Man, where God imparted the "breath of life" into Adam. So too, "self-sacrifice" is not alien to religious belief. The concept is the acknowledgement of a Higher Authority (above the wants and desires of the individual). Thus in Judaism an "Eved Hashem" is a slave to God, and in Islam a "Muslim" is a person who submits to God. A Jew must be willing to give his life rather than commit the three major sins of idolotry, murder, and forbidden sexual relations. Otherwise, the Jew is obligated to preserve life even if compelled to commit other lesser sins (in order to serve God, to perform mitzvot, in the future). These concepts all came into play in times of Jewish persecution. Many Jews did die rather than betray their faith.

Of course there is also the concept of the joyous service of God. It is not all self-sacrifice.

While the origins of the word "spiritual" that you describe are very interesting, I believe you recognize above that is not how the word is used today. Rather, the focus is on the intangible "spirit" or "soul" that is integrally connected with its Source. Many people today who use the term strip it of any sense of religious duty or responsibility. Often in a self-absorbed feel-good New-Age way that is the opposite of self-sacrifice or submission to the Will of God or Divine service. For some it has become a form of self-worship; the Diefication of Narcissim.

This may well be the idolatry of our New Age.





The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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I always felt people who said they were spiritual were folks who had rejected traditional religious practices for any number of reasons but still have feelings beyond the material world.

Offline michaelintp

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Reg, you're such a nice guy. I guess I come across as a little harsh at times, hahaha. Yeh, I don't disagree with you ... though I do think some of what I described is also goin' on.  I had in mind folks like Madonna, though I don't know her personally and she may in fact be a lovely spiritual person.
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline michaelintp

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... though a reason a lot of people reject traditional religious practices is because such practices and obligations can be burdomsom and restricting - preventing people from doing what they "want" to do when they "want" to do it, while requiring them to do other things that they don't "feel" like doing.

I believe for a lot of folk, the name of God is not Jesus or Hashem. The name of God is ...
DICK.   ::)
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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... though a reason a lot of people reject traditional religious practices is because such practices and obligations can be burdomsom and restricting - preventing people from doing what they "want" to do when they "want" to do it, while requiring them to do other things that they don't "feel" like doing.

I believe for a lot of folk, the name of God is not Jesus or Hashem. The name of God is ...
DICK.   ::)
There''s PLENTY of people who claim to be faithful while violating the word or spirit of their belief system.

Offline michaelintp

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There's PLENTY of people who claim to be faithful while violating the word or spirit of their belief system.

True. The question is whether they are honest and attribute their lapses to human weakness, laziness, or indifference, or whether they feel the need to rationalize their conduct by redefining themselves as "spiritual"  or with some similar laudatory description. I imagine doing the latter is easier on the ego.
The spirit of emptiness is immortal.
It is called the Great Mother
because it gives birth to Heaven and Earth.
It is like a vapor,
barely seen but always present.
Use it effortlessly.

Tao Te Ching, Ch. 6