Author Topic: New Storm Ongoing Title  (Read 530137 times)

Offline sinjection1

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #645 on: July 24, 2014, 06:28:40 pm »
The thing that annoys me severely is the notion of erstwhile Abercrombie and Fitch  models Summers and Frost parading about with their entitled whining of oppression one and two that people would look at mutants differently than super powered folks period. Nobody would see Grimm Torch Spider-Man Danvers differently than Storm Frost Iceman or Magneto. It's ridiculous as is the fandom mentality. Not to mention you find kinship with folk because you can burp fire and this one can pass snow but your ethnic group means nothing to you.No.

Brilliant post.  8)

 Sunfire has always embraced his Japanese heritage first and homosuperiority secondarily. At least that's how it seemed to me. I got the same vibe from China's mutant, the Collective Man. White mutants have a sense of their nationality, ethnicity, and family to some greater or lesser degree.

It's almost as if when a mutant becomes involved with the mutant supremacy group a.k.a. the cult of the X-Men, they are encouraged to shed ties to nationality, ethnicity, family....sexuality? they get to retain that. The freakier, the better.

"Creep" wasn't having it.
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Offline Booshman

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #646 on: July 24, 2014, 06:47:22 pm »
Sunfire has always embraced his Japanese heritage first and homosuperiority secondarily. At least that's how it seemed to me. I got the same vibe from China's mutant, the Collective Man. White mutants have a sense of their nationality, ethnicity, and family to some greater or lesser degree.

It's almost as if when a mutant becomes involved with the mutant supremacy group a.k.a. the cult of the X-Men, they are encouraged to shed ties to nationality, ethnicity, family....sexuality? they get to retain that. The freakier, the better.

"Creep" wasn't having it.

Was that the same Sunfire that "dared" to tell Storm to respect his nation's borders. When he said that she wasn't allowed to just barge into Japan without proper authority, and then tried to prevent her from doing so? Where she promptly attacked him. She seems to have a problem respecting human borders. Wakanda, Japan, this latest issue, etc...etc...etc...

Offline Rutog98

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #647 on: July 24, 2014, 09:12:14 pm »
Sunfire has always embraced his Japanese heritage first and homosuperiority secondarily. At least that's how it seemed to me. I got the same vibe from China's mutant, the Collective Man. White mutants have a sense of their nationality, ethnicity, and family to some greater or lesser degree.

It's almost as if when a mutant becomes involved with the mutant supremacy group a.k.a. the cult of the X-Men, they are encouraged to shed ties to nationality, ethnicity, family....sexuality? they get to retain that. The freakier, the better.

"Creep" wasn't having it.

Was that the same Sunfire that "dared" to tell Storm to respect his nation's borders. When he said that she wasn't allowed to just barge into Japan without proper authority, and then tried to prevent her from doing so? Where she promptly attacked him. She seems to have a problem respecting human borders. Wakanda, Japan, this latest issue, etc...etc...etc...

Boy, you really stretch things far, don't you? Regarding the Storm/Sunfire thing, that was Storm going through some changes at that time. It was not normal Storm. With the Wakanda thing, that was Storm offering her assistance. Nothing wrong with that. Regarding the latest incident in Storm #1, Storm was doing the right thing. Seems to me you just shot yourself in the foot with the first part of your post dealing with Creep. She took Storm to task on the issue some of you are touching upon relating to Storm's ethnicity.

Going forward from that last thought, Sinjection offers a lot of passionate debate and has strong points. I find that I cannot refute much of what he says especially concerning the x-brats since I don't read about them. I know that Synch was in Generation X, but I did not read that title as I don't care about x-kids. I only read titles where Storm plays a prominent role.

All that said, the points Sinjection raises has nothing to do with the Storm/Black Panther situation, to be honest, nor does it have anything to do with Pak, and by extension, Storm's solo book. I'll get back to this later. First, I want to address the point about the White male X-Men. I already said that Wolverine was no good for Storm and am totally against that relationship. I never claimed Scott was any better either. If anything, he's worse than Logan, however, Warren is no pedophile. Bobby is a good guy, too. I have never seen Scott paired with a Black woman. Colossus, Warren, Nightcrawler, Cannonball and Bobby are all good guys, if you ask me. Sure, Gambit is a womanizer, but when he's in a relationship, he seems to be pretty monogamous and treats women he dates well. All that said, maybe CC sees the issues in some of the X-Men males that Sinjection pointed out which might be why he told me in an e-mail that nobody was good enough for Storm to pair her with. LOL!

Regarding the Bishop thing, that was Claremont who made him an Aborigine. He did so make him a descendant of Gateway to give him some kind of power with dream time or something. Even if one can prove that CERTAIN x-writers have a degree of animosity towards Black characters, it certainly cannot be universally applied to all writers of x-books. I think Bishop is still half Black and he's drawn Black with Black features and everything. Claremont LOVES diversity on his teams. He had Storm (Black), Thunderbird 3 (East Indian), Psylocke (Asian) and Bishop (half Black/half Aborigine) on his team which amounts to over half the line up. He even stated on comixfan that he felt Bishop *could* potentially be as iconic as Ororo Munroe and he did a lot to try and beef that character up. I can go into detail on this. He does not fit the mold for a writer who has hatred of Black men/characters of color. As a matter of fact, he seems to gravitate towards characters of color and women to give them prominent roles in his books. He tends to make them very powerful and strives to make them meaningful. Pak, if anything, appears to surpass even Claremont along these lines judging from Storm #1.  Pak has NO problem whatsoever with writing characters of color with the respect and decency they deserve.

Getting back to Storm/T'challa, Marvel bent over backwards to marry the two. It doesn't follow the narrative at all for what you guys are talking about. I understand why most fans were upset about the marriage and they have a lot of MAJOR points. For starters, the way the marriage was rushed and thrown together, it looked like Marvel was putting Ororo and T'challa together only because they were Black. That's just the truth and its not a good enough reason to get married. The two characters briefly shared a childhood friendship, but had no real interaction as adults save for maybe one story that lasted for two issues under Priest and another single issue story that both of which occurred over a period of about 30 years. Even if I missed a short story or two, there was no foundation whatsoever for them to get married. Dating for a couple of years, yeah, but married? No. Fan favorites for Storm to date like Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Gambit made MUCH more sense because she actually knows these characters well inside and out and they know her. They have grown together AS adults. They formed close bonds of friendship with each other AS adults. They've laughed together, cried together, experienced joy, sadness, success and hardship together for years as adults. They helped each other out through tough times in each other's lives and they relied on each other's strength when they were weak. They were in countless situations where their survival depended on each other as adults. Fans had their hearts set on her dating somebody she knew well and had chemistry with. Which X-Man would she end up with was a hotly debated topic for years on the internet. Then this whole T'challa thing came clear out of left field. I mean, Marvel came out and said something about them getting married and celebrating Black History month. Now, come on. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If Marvel wanted to marry Storm and the Black Panther (I think it was an EXCELLENT idea, by the way, but poorly executed), they should have either had the two characters join the same team, like Defenders, to let them grow together naturally OR given them a Storm and Black Panther 12-issue maxi series  (eventhen, it would feel kinda quick, but it would be much more preferable to what they did.)I repeat, personally, I think a Storm/Panther marriage is a GREAT idea if executed in a REALISTIC way. To try and make the marriage seem like a natural progression for the two characters, they totally devalued Storm and re-imagined the back story between her and T'challa in a way that totally destroyed who she is. She went from leading her own team (and, no, she was not taking orders from Xavier, Scott or Emma as she was the undisputed leader of her own X-team and did as she pleased. Scott had no control over her whatsoever) to being Robin to Black Panther's proverbial Batman as he was undoubtedly the leader in their relationship and on the missions that the two went on. Sorry, but she was not portrayed as his equal in marriage in that book. She was also portrayed much more powerfully under Claremont's pen right before she was taken out of his x-book and placed in BP. (To be fair, in terms of power, given the feats McDuffie gave Storm when she and T'challa joined the FF made the marriage worth it to me in regards of Storm feats!)

Given the strength of her personality, I can't see Storm not being an equal partner in any relationship. Its just not who she is. While she would not ride roughshod over her lover or be controlling of him, she would certainly be who she is and being in a relationship would not and should not diminish her sense of self and strong personality. I don't care for the Storm/Forge relationship to be frank (he's too old for her and she needs somebody more attractive like T'challa), but at least under CC's pen (Lobdell messed it up), she certainly remained true to herself and her own strength of character while in that relationship. I've gone on and on about the Claremontian Storm.

When Hudlin took over the writing duties for this character, his Storm was being matched against Claremont's in the minds of the fans. Read X-Treme X-Men "Invasion Arc" or "Schism". (Invasion Arc also has good Bishop moments as when Storm is taken out of commission, its Bishop who steps up  and proves to be a natural leader. Another good story that showcases Bishop is "Prisoner of Fire". If you read "Prisoner of fire", you will see just how much respect Claremont gives Bishop, a Black man who is part Aborigine. ) In the "Invasion Arc" and "Schism", you'll see just how ferociously formidable Storm is as a leader and a fighter. After X-Treme X-Men was over, Claremont took over Uncanny X-Men and continued writing pretty much the same team Storm had in X-Treme with Storm as the leader and beholden to nobody. Again, read "Invasion Arc" and ask yourself "Was Storm portrayed as this strong a leader in Black Panther as she was in these stories?" The answer is "no" hence the Batman/Robin analogy I made. Fans perceived a diminishment in her character as a result of a forced, unrealistic marriage. It is because of this diminishment that they called Hudlin a misogynist. (Well, that PLUS the way her mini was rewritten to where T'challa saved her. Though Dickey wrote the mini, Hudlin got stuck with part of the blame.) I bought every issue of Black Panther when he and Ororo was married all the way to the end of "Doom War." I am the ultimate Storm fan. I read comics just to read about this character and I know her inside and out. When I tell you that the Claremontian Storm has a much stronger presence that Hudlin's Storm and was portrayed as being much more formidable, you can take that to the bank. This is coming from someone who really pulled for the marriage to work.

Now, I think part of the reason for this is Hudlin was new to her character. As I have maintained, he genuinely likes Storm and his writing of her got better and better as the issues went on. By the last 6 issues of his run, he TOTALLY nailed her personality. If he had written her like that from day one, there would not have been such a fan uprising to the marriage. Well, they would not have let go about the mini, but they would have probably moved beyond that as time went on. He just had to find his way with the character and get used to her. That's all. He would not do anything to hurt the character intentionally. Other x-writers have commented on how difficult it is to write Ororo and to really understand her character.

Regarding the D-list character they called T'challa, the X-Men is Marvel's biggest franchise and Storm is the premier female character of the X. There is no disputing this fact. Her popularity among the x-characters, on average, is second only to Wolverine's and occasionally Gambit's. If you compare Storm's stardom in the X-Men to T'challa's in the Avengers, Storm totally wins out. She's universally viewed as not only one of the premier female characters in all of comicdom, but also the premier Black character in all of comicbook history. The "D-list" jab at T'challa was just a frustrated response from many of her fans who viewed Storm as being written in a less formidable fashion than what they are accustomed to be his sidekick.

These are the reasons the overwhelming majority of Storm fans were turned off by the marriage. For a few of them, there may have been a racist element, but to be fair, it was not the main thing by a mile. Personally, I was open minded to it for several reasons. 1) It was an opportunity for Storm's role in the MU to extend beyond the X-bubble. 2) There was too big a risk of her casual dates with Wolverine and Kurt getting serious with Logan prior to the marriage. While she could have just as easily ended up with Kurt instead of Wolverine, I DO NOT want Storm with Logan. I don't even want to take the risk of that happening. 3) With the BP main cast being much smaller than a team of X-Men (the main cast in BP would be limited to just two, T'challa and Ororo), I figured it would also be a better opportunity to see more of her as there were less people to share the writing space with per issue with. I mean, imagine Storm being written at her fullest potential in a book with a cast of only 2 people! That would beat the HECK out of her being written in a team dynamic where there are 5-7 characters on the book's roster. 4) I would like to see Black Panther, a Black male, elevated to a status equal to that of Tony Starks and Reed Richards as far as being a Marvel icon. I think Marvel should make it a point to have a Black male character in that category for the sake of diversity. I saw this marriage, as an opportunity to unite the fanbases of both characters to achieve all of this.

Long breath!!!

All of this said, I can understand why many of you would like to see a Black power couple in Marvel. I'd like to see it too. Thing is, for it to go over well with the readership, the marriage has to make sense. It can't look like you just threw two people together in a marriage because they are Black. Many readers will call that racist and its just not a good thing. While it would be nice to do more with the ethnic dimension of Storm's character, it should feel to the readership like you're only adding more layers onto an already rich character rather than adding that layer, but making her less of a leader by having her take on more of the role of a sidekick to another character. Also, a character should be more than just the color of their skin. Storm's ethnicity should not overshadow all that she is. I don't want to fault Hudlin too hard for the sidekick thing. To be honest, this sidekick approach would work for just about any woman including most of the Claremontian women. It would work for Sue Richards, Crystal, Rogue, Psylocke, Polaris, even Jean Grey as none of them are even half the leader and tactician Storm is.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:07:09 am by Rutog98 »
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Princesa

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #648 on: July 25, 2014, 10:00:27 am »
Rutog

You know I love you right? But 90% of that was bullsh*t.

Offline Rutog98

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #649 on: July 25, 2014, 10:03:53 am »
Rutog

You know I love you right? But 90% of that was bullsh*t.

Well, lets discuss it. What was wrong with what I said? Call me out on it. I'm kinda busy now, but I'll try and get back to you this evening. If not then, definitely tomorrow.
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Princesa

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #650 on: July 25, 2014, 10:14:58 am »
...This all reminds me why I DON'T want BP/Storm reunited and hoping Kymera is NOT his, I do not want to go down that dry hole again. It's too mess and neurosis inhabiting the X Verse and it's fandom. Oh I see why the writers are intrigued: he offers royalty and mysticism elitism --like Aaron said Batman with his own religion. They want the essence of him but NOT him. They want Kymera fighting for a spot in the Kingdom for her and her future boyfriend Hans. And in future projections she is dead and Hans of Slovakia is ruler of Wakanda.

Offline Rutog98

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #651 on: July 25, 2014, 11:03:52 am »
...This all reminds me why I DON'T want BP/Storm reunited and hoping Kymera is NOT his, I do not want to go down that dry hole again. It's too mess and neurosis inhabiting the X Verse and it's fandom. Oh I see why the writers are intrigued: he offers royalty and mysticism elitism --like Aaron said Batman with his own religion. They want the essence of him but NOT him. They want Kymera fighting for a spot in the Kingdom for her and her future boyfriend Hans. And in future projections she is dead and Hans of Slovakia is ruler of Wakanda.

Personally, I don't want Storm with anyone. According to a poster on another board, "Hickman wanted to use Storm (the X-verse said no) and have T'Challa secretly sleeping with her behind the scenes = so to Wakanda they are broken up, but they would still be together. Hickman didn't want to use Storm IN the Illuminati, but he wanted to use her as a glorified booty call."

Now, how disrespectful to Storm is this? This shows a TOTAL disrespect of Black women. Look, things were getting better with Storm and T'challa under Hudlin before he was replaced by Maberry...then things hit an all-time low with Storm playing second fiddle to a third string character like Shuri. If Marvel had allowed Hickman to get Storm just to be Panther's booty call, that would have been terrible. Look at how Storm is viewed when she leaves the x-office? She may be sleeping with Logan right now, but they are in a relationship at least. (Ugh). Its not like she's sleeping with somebody who wants to keep his thing with her on the down low like Hickman wanted to. Why can't Storm and T'challa be written as the characters that they are without one character having to be written down for the other? I mean, really? This is not rocket science, folks! Since Marvel can't seem to do it, then the two characters don't need to be in a relationship together, but should remain as close friends and should be able to share adventures together sometimes.

To be fair, not all x-writers are fair to Storm. Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle comes to mind as well as the x-writers post Claremont after she married Panther like that TERRIBLE Matt Fraction. On the other hand, Claremont/Yost/Davis/Pak are all x-writers who write a wonderful Storm.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:17:41 am by Rutog98 »
Ex-X-Writer and Ex-X-editor Ann Nocenti writes on Storm:

"At her command, oceans rise, breezes cool, rains pummel, tornadoes destroy, sun dries, seas part."

Take from page 24 or 26 of her novel, "Prisoner X"

Pretty nifty! ;)

Offline Princesa

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #652 on: July 25, 2014, 11:34:26 am »
Well obviously in X Verse delusion a Black woman and her Black ex HUSBAND reconciling is a horror.

Offline Mad Coco G

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #653 on: July 25, 2014, 11:41:49 am »
The thirst and mental hurdles

Offline Princesa

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #654 on: July 25, 2014, 11:52:42 am »
Many Storm fans remind me of Samuel L Jackson in D'Jango. You have to know when to fold you hand.

Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #655 on: July 25, 2014, 12:24:17 pm »
At this point, I can't ven begin to fathom why most of you guys continue to feed this troll.

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #656 on: July 25, 2014, 01:29:21 pm »
...This all reminds me why I DON'T want BP/Storm reunited and hoping Kymera is NOT his, I do not want to go down that dry hole again. It's too mess and neurosis inhabiting the X Verse and it's fandom. Oh I see why the writers are intrigued: he offers royalty and mysticism elitism --like Aaron said Batman with his own religion. They want the essence of him but NOT him. They want Kymera fighting for a spot in the Kingdom for her and her future boyfriend Hans. And in future projections she is dead and Hans of Slovakia is ruler of Wakanda.

Personally, I don't want Storm with anyone. According to a poster on another board, "Hickman wanted to use Storm (the X-verse said no) and have T'Challa secretly sleeping with her behind the scenes = so to Wakanda they are broken up, but they would still be together. Hickman didn't want to use Storm IN the Illuminati, but he wanted to use her as a glorified booty call."

Now, how disrespectful to Storm is this? This shows a TOTAL disrespect of Black women. Look, things were getting better with Storm and T'challa under Hudlin before he was replaced by Maberry...then things hit an all-time low with Storm playing second fiddle to a third string character like Shuri. If Marvel had allowed Hickman to get Storm just to be Panther's booty call, that would have been terrible. Look at how Storm is viewed when she leaves the x-office? She may be sleeping with Logan right now, but they are in a relationship at least. (Ugh). Its not like she's sleeping with somebody who wants to keep his thing with her on the down low like Hickman wanted to. Why can't Storm and T'challa be written as the characters that they are without one character having to be written down for the other? I mean, really? This is not rocket science, folks! Since Marvel can't seem to do it, then the two characters don't need to be in a relationship together, but should remain as close friends and should be able to share adventures together sometimes.

To be fair, not all x-writers are fair to Storm. Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle comes to mind as well as the x-writers post Claremont after she married Panther like that TERRIBLE Matt Fraction. On the other hand, Claremont/Yost/Davis/Pak are all x-writers who write a wonderful Storm.


In response to the bolded...I don't believe for a flashing second that Hickman would reduce Ororo to TChalla's booty call.  Having the two have sex and stuff? Yes. I can see that all day. I can even see it as a preview to both playing a role in teams outside of Wakanda and The X-Men. Like...Uncanny Avengers. [ I haven't read the Uncanny Avengers book, but I think you know where I'm going with this ].

It would give both of them interesting options to explore and keep the hot button topics hot...which equals sales a lot of times...and keep both prominent in the MU. It would have stopped Storm from being with Kurt or anyone else...including TChalla...as a featured serious single relationship.

Also? TChalla and Storm being married simply trumps anything else. Storm? Most powerful mutant on Earth? Personification of Xavier's dream, which she believes in too?  Most powerful married couple in comics? Premier couple of color in world history? I think that RH's actual book wherein TChalla and Storm get married, and the subsequent books where the subject got brought up, really answered that question well. In love since children? Check. Sparks fly when meeting as adults? Check.

Robin to TChalla's Batman? Not really. New to role as Queen of Wakanda contrasted with lifelong training to be King of Wakanda combined with being wildly popular amongst all Wakandans? The same Wakandans who have 10,000 years of reasons to distrust outsiders...and their Queen is an outsider? Yeah...that's a better comparison, I would say.

Would playing out all of the ramifications...as a couple and for the MU, with [ at the time ] collaboration from X-verse writer CC in X-Treme X-Men in addition to the X-Writer of the WILD KINGDOM arc,  in addition to a 12 issue Max Miniseries for TChalla and Storm...have really smashed on any legit reason to hate the Marriage while keeping sales high? And follow with TChalla and Storm in all the big Marvel events, McDuffie's F4, Worlds Apart, SEE WAKANDA AND DIE, etc etc have crushed haters and inflated sales?

Yeah, I think so.

Was that possible given the agenda of writers and various Offices and behind the scenes office politics? Prolly not.
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Offline Salustrade

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #657 on: July 25, 2014, 01:41:52 pm »
Quote
Originally Posted by Kasper Cole
If Storm was show to struggle even slightly with a tsunami during Hudlin's run some people would have complained that she was being made to look weak to make T'Challa look better.

If Storm had said "It's all good" during Hudlin's Black Panther run people would have complained that she doesn't talk like that or say Storm was being "Ghettoized".

If Storm was shown letting something that someone else said get to her during Hudlin's Black Panther run all we'd have seen was some Storm fans saying "Storm's above things like that, she doesn't care what people think".

If Storm was shown acknowledging intersectionality in any way shape or form we'd hear "Storm just sees herself as a mutant first and foremost".

Just shows how full of crap some people were doing that whole thing.

Agreed 100%

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #658 on: July 25, 2014, 01:44:03 pm »
Quote
Originally Posted by Kasper Cole
If Storm was show to struggle even slightly with a tsunami during Hudlin's run some people would have complained that she was being made to look weak to make T'Challa look better.

If Storm had said "It's all good" during Hudlin's Black Panther run people would have complained that she doesn't talk like that or say Storm was being "Ghettoized".

If Storm was shown letting something that someone else said get to her during Hudlin's Black Panther run all we'd have seen was some Storm fans saying "Storm's above things like that, she doesn't care what people think".

If Storm was shown acknowledging intersectionality in any way shape or form we'd hear "Storm just sees herself as a mutant first and foremost".

Just shows how full of crap some people were doing that whole thing.

Agreed 100%


What they said^^^.
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Offline Maxine Shaw

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Re: New Storm Ongoing Title
« Reply #659 on: July 25, 2014, 01:47:05 pm »
Jenn's "....black and f***ing" slogan

Nicked that from Hudlin.
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