Author Topic: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American  (Read 25900 times)

Offline Ammar

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2007, 12:07:03 pm »
And yet none of you have commented on the movie that was the idea for this thread. The movie directed by an african starring africans has so many elements of american culture, that it makes the fanboy's arguments fall flat.

That's the thing though, they are influenced by African-American culture.

Wakanda according to continuity isn't due to their xenophobia. So they don't really have any in-comic book reason to adapt anything from any culture that's not from the realm

except for the fact that BP was educated patially in the west,   and was also a school teacher in harlem, and somewhot opened up the country to westerners

I forgot about that, T'Challa yes (although I still don't see it being so considering T'Challa's background)

But doesn't the criticizim encompass ALL the Wakandans?

Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2007, 01:22:24 pm »
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron, another black person in another country would have.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 03:29:40 pm by Evasive1 »

Offline bluezulu

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2007, 02:07:14 pm »
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

Offline Yaw

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2007, 11:20:25 pm »
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?

Offline Wise Son

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2007, 02:04:37 am »
Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser.
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.

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Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2007, 11:53:45 am »
Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their native country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe have been going to the hair dresser.
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.
Actually, I think  there is a scene in Wakanda, during the Wedding arc I think, were there are some women in a beauty salon discussing the news of T'Challa's upcoming marriage to Storm. I guess that is where the criticism is coming from.

Offline bluezulu

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2007, 03:42:29 pm »
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?
-----------------------
Sorry for the jargon. Basicly she would become aroused when the staff would do her hair. The problem was that she was 10 and a sex offender and you don't want to make sex offenders sexualized if you can help it. What is worse? Nappy hair because you refuse to do it, or being retramatized by folks who should know better but don't because they can't put their own issues on hold.

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2007, 07:02:25 pm »
I have to ask, what exactly are the Americanisations that are being talked about here? It's a criticism I've only read couched in the vaguest terms, so I'd appreciate it if someone could point to the exact problems they have with it.

The most I've heard is that somehow, depicting Wakandans going to a hairdressers was 'too American', and I just have to assume there's more to it than that.

Every girl I knew who was Nigerian, Ethiopian, South African or from Sierra Leone went to the hairdresser in their home country and here. So what the heck would African women going to a hair dresser, in the modern age, have to do with too much African American culture. Black women all over the globe ahve been going to the hair dresser. I don't think you can put the cause solely on African Americans. We were influenced by Eurocentric values of beauty along with all the other blacks in the world. If Madame C J Walker hadn't invented the pressing iron another black person in another country would have.
------------------
The power of the black hair. You know I used to work with "troubled" youth and one kid would get sexualized when the staff would do her hair for her. She was old enough to do her own hair, but would just get into a power struggle to not do it so that the female staff would do it for her. Simple solution for me. Hey ladies don't do her hair. I even got the psychiatrist to write up Dr. orders to not do her hair. Man the sisters had a fit. They were about to lose their job and battle a Medical Doctor on why no white man ain't gonna tell me not to do a black girls hair. It was a major split and I had to go to him and tell him that the both of us can't battle 400 years of black women sitting between their momma laps and getting that "nurturing pain" that comes with getting that nappy hair straightened. Poor black women. Getting your hair fried in order to appeal to a european style of beauty. My sister grew up with white baby dolls, it was not until the generation under me that the black baby doll came into play. So I see what you  are saying bro.

what do u mean sexualized?  Why was it a problem inthe first place for female staff to do her hair?
-----------------------
Sorry for the jargon. Basicly she would become aroused when the staff would do her hair. The problem was that she was 10 and a sex offender and you don't want to make sex offenders sexualized if you can help it. What is worse? Nappy hair because you refuse to do it, or being retramatized by folks who should know better but don't because they can't put their own issues on hold.

waaaaaaiiiiit,waaaaaiiiit,waaaiiit!!

A 10 year old Girl was getting sexually aroused because some one was doing her hair? And the People who were doing her hair would not stop because they hated to see her walk around with her hair not done?

....Damn,Bluzulu I could not write something like that if I tried  :o :o :o

Offline Loren

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2007, 08:19:36 pm »
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2007, 08:37:10 pm »
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV.


Nice link,Loren.What Reg said was:
Oh no, I"m mindfully bashing here.

Not liking black pop culture has nothing to do with race. There are quite a few black people who don't like hip hop in general, and even more who don't like the current direction of hip hop culture. 

As for Shuri, as I said, a young woman in the technologically advanced culture in the world has cable.  "

To me this makes perfect sense.In Japan,there have been horrifically violent movies and anime for decades.For decades (until just very recently,after 60 plus years of massive U.S.A. influence due to the aftermatch of WW2) they haven't had the problems with crime that the USA has.Amsterdam has legalized drugs...and eliminated the epidemic that sweeps the streets of the USA.Both of these places have hiphop...yet,I doubt very seriously that they have Crips,Bloods,La Emme,Jamaican Posse,Skinheads and the like all warring with each other and staking out territory on the streets on a scale anything like that of the USA.So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.
"
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Offline The Evasive 1

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2007, 08:43:22 pm »
Exactly, and I've never even seen a Wakandan with straight hair. That's why I don't even understand the accusation that Hudlin's Wakanda is americanised. I really want someone to explain t me what makes the critics think this, as I don't see it.


I naturally can't speak for everyone, but I saw it in the dialogue.  Some on the aforementioned beauty parlor opening page ("Are you saying Storm isn't beautiful?" "Er, ah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying..." "Uh-huh. That's what I thought!"), but perhaps most significantly all the way back in #2, with the ringside commentators.  They felt about as natural to the scene as the wisecracking alien commentator in "Phantom Menace."  One of them even said "As if."

And on the subject of dialogue, some months back when Jer said that he thought characters sounded too "American," Reggie's answer wasn't to say "No they don't" so much as to explain that they sound that way because they watch American TV.


Many Africans that I know use slang. In fact, people from other countries period that  I personally know and have met, use American slang . Some I would suspect do get it from TV, but others have picked it up from people they come in contact with. I'm sure I don't have to go into the whole discussion of how HIP hop has spread across the world through media and person to person interaction. Kids from other countries use American slang in English and even in their own language. Language period spreads from region to region, country to country and morphs itself into peoples everyday use. It's been that way since the first human spoke. I look at the statement Pantherfan made in the thread your link leads to:

I remember listening to Paul Mooney's comedy album and he said that Black Americans are instrumental in music, clothing, gesture and language. It's not far fetched for Africans or any other group wanting to emulate current trends in pop culture."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is far fetched that modern Wakandans would use American Slang. Now the Africans who were try to attack Wakanda in the past in the "Who is the Panther Arc" that dialogue I didn't think made sense. I could agree with that point.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 08:47:03 pm by Evasive1 »

Offline Loren

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2007, 09:00:58 pm »
So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.


If we were talking about another country, I'd probably agree.  And it's never been my opinion that Wakanda should be "negatively influenced" by Western culture.  They're certainly above that.

But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak: ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2007, 09:17:42 pm »
Apparently RH has a different perspective vis-a-vis how Wakandans view specifically the issue of cable and certain aspects of "slang" than does PRIEST. And since PRIEST on several instances enthusiastically supported RH publicly,I would hypothesize that PRIEST finds nothing wrong with RH's script.Or at least not anything significant enough to have doubts about.

On another issue...and as probably one of the highest profile PRIEST BP lovers on this site...I cannot understand how alleged PRIEST supporters could love PRIEST BP and yet think so little of PRIEST'S opinions that they not only don't support RH BP after PRIEST gave it a blessing,but turned around and decry RH BP and the writing quality even after PRIEST called RH a quality writer.I simply conclude that this matter of preference is one of STYLE,not necessarily a distinction of quality.Holyfield beat Tyson,yet Tyson's STYLE made him a higher profile fighter than HOLYFIELD...specifically TYSON's violent and explosive knockouts.But both are amongst thel last people you wanna see on the opposite side of you when they were in their fighting prime.
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Offline Yaw

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2007, 09:49:18 pm »
So I figure the author of fictional Wakanda has plenty of wiggle room should he/she determine that the world's most technological country with the world's most pure and powerful culture can watch international cable and not be negatively influenced.


If we were talking about another country, I'd probably agree.  And it's never been my opinion that Wakanda should be "negatively influenced" by Western culture.  They're certainly above that.

But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak: ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.


As I said in my original post, Wakandans do sound and act too AMerican but this isn't something that was started by  Hudlin.  Priest Wakandans may not have sounded American but they sure did look it.  Clothes, jail cells, exercise equipment, guns, etc. all represented a Western influence imo.  Queen Divine Justice wearing karate gi while training in Wakanda.  I know she didn't bring that in luggage.  The look of the Dora Milaje. Come on now, seriously.

This is why I find arguments of Hudlin making Wakandans "too American" to be ridiculous.  Since they have been created they have always been influenced by Americans.  It would take alot of time and effort to truly create an African nation that has not been influenced by the West in no way shape or form.  That is something that no author has taken the time to really explore.  Despite the overall poor depiction of Wakanda in the move Ultimate Avengers 2 and the reliance on alien technology, I thought they were heading in the right direction.  Needless to saythey get an overall  D+.

Offline voodoochild

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Re: For anyone who thinks that Hudlin's Wakanda is too American
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2007, 11:53:20 pm »
But the notion of piping in Western culture at all is just at odds with the nature of Wakanda.  Priest described the Wakandans this way:

"Their culture is hundreds of years older than ours and is largely undiluted, an unconquered race that has, until very recently, lived in total isolation. We, and I include African Americans in this, are mongrels to the Wakandans. Uneducated and barbaric. A land of David Lettermen...I think outsiders are *tolerated,* but are seen as morally bankrupt, immature, and somewhat underdeveloped."

They're not going to watch American TV and Hollywood movies because they look down on us.  They have their own literature and film and pop culture that they find infinitely superior to anything we produce.  It's part of the reason why it irked me to see BET featured in #18; why wasn't the focus on *Wakandan* broadcasters?  After all, that's what everyone in Wakanda would be watching.  Their response to American culture ought to be like my response to Leetspeak: ugh.

When this discussion happened once before, it was suggested that Wakandans absorb American culture the same way Americans watch "Jerry Springer;" as a lowbrow form of entertainment, laughing at people they can feel superior to.  Which is a possibility...but it does nothing to answer the original question of why the Wakandans would emulate American dialogue or culture.  Rather, it does the opposite, since people are less likely to imitate something they find beneath them.


That was Priest's version.  This is Hudlin's version. 

The Wakandans sound "American" because they are written by Americans for an American audience.  What, should Hudlin create a Wakandan language and script all of their dialogue in that language and put english translations at the bottom of the page?  They use Americanized slang.  So what?  All languages have slang.  Again, what do you expect the writer to do, make up some just for authenticity's sake?  Or would it be better if they all used that stilted, contraction-free speak so popular in older comics and bad Star Trek series (and in Priest's version coincidently). 

I never saw the Wakandans as absorbing American culture.  I took it as Hudlin attempting to humanize the Wakandans and make them easier to relate to.  Hudlin is a screenwriter.  He writes conversationally, the way people actually speak.  That's one thing that annoyed the hell out of me with Priest's run(well, two things with Ross being #1 ;D).  He determined to make Tchalla and the Wakandans as foreign to African-Americans as possible (but then turns around and gives them overly westernized looks).  I hate that sh*t.  Like there isnt enough division between us as a people...