Author Topic: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed  (Read 29827 times)

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2007, 11:09:12 am »
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.

Nope.  Not here.

Then I just have to shake my head.


Dawg,you're taking it a trifle too far.For my part,there's no denying that the symbolism is powerful in the ROCKY movies,but I was poking fun at Stallone's movies.He masterfully played upon the complex psychological issues and history and allat other stuff...but at the end of the day,man...do I LIKE the movies? YES.Most of them,anyway...
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Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2007, 11:19:47 am »
No, I'm not taking anything too far.  I'm voicing my opinion that it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving white superiority.

Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2007, 11:31:54 am »
No, I'm not taking anything too far.  I'm voicing my opinion that it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving white superiority.

Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!! Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.
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Offline sinjection

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2007, 11:47:39 am »
*blinks*

I'm just going to assume the posts on how ROCKY was in part about proving black inferiority are joking.
-------------------------------
Naw I think Stallone had to show just how bad a** rocky was by beating arc types of the baddest men on the planet at the time. One was the muhammad ali type and the second was the mike tyson type although rocky III was before tyson went pro and the fight against the russion was just propaganda. So yea the guys are reaching. Instead of hate stallone was giving us props by making us shown as the ultimate to have the itallion stallion come out on top.

I was joking. "Half-joking".

So, maybe Stallone was paying a measure of tribute to the skills and stature of Muhammad Ali and Tyson. But to me, it seems that tribute was back-handed at best and did more to satisfy the un-realized desire by many white boxing fans to see a white boxer defeat the "brash" "Louisville Lip", a black man who stood up to the U.S. government and its court system defending the principles he believed in rather than going to Vietnam to kill people who had never wronged him, for this still-racist nation who was at that time, prosecuting an unjust war. Muhammad Ali was proven to be right. Wasn't he?

The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

When jazz singer Diana Krall produces an album that is in tribute to Duke Ellington, then that is exactly what it is. As an artist and lover of jazz music, Krall has an understandable respect and admiration for those jazz greats who came before her and performs their music as a way of honoring them. Many of Diana Krall's white fans, promoters and critics on the other hand seem to want it known that it is a white woman making that jazz music. They often refer to her as the "Platinum Lady of Jazz" or something like that....so that the audience who might not have ever seen Krall before would know from the description that she is a blonde haired, blue-eyed white woman. eminem received the same treatment. He bleached his hair blonde and those promoters of his music made sure to work the fact that he was a blonde haired white rapper into as many discussions about him as they could. Krall and eminem both peform genres of music that were created by black Americans.

So, I don't necessarily believe that Stallone was paying props to Ali or Tyson by having the Italian Stallion defeat both "The Master Of Disaster" Apollo Creed or Clubber Lang, anymore than Elvis' coronation as the King of Rock and Roll is meant ot pay props to Little Richard, Chuck Berry or Fats Domino. I think Balboa's victory over Creed and Lang accomplished the same thing that eminem's defeat of the "upper class" black opponent in the movie "8 Mile" - a movie I DIDN'T and WON'T watch by the way - accomplished. That being to give white audiences a "happy ending" of white people overcoming some stiff opposition of black people.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 12:07:01 pm by sinjection »
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2007, 12:10:40 pm »
Must I quote RH DOOM in BP #19 on you,dawg? "Touchy subject,Jonathanos?" Hahahaha!!

Um, no.  Why would you think so?

Quote
Look,you voiced your opinion.Your opinion has been heard...er,"read". You feel it's ridiculous to suggest that ROCKY had anything to do with proving White superiority.There are quite a few of us who disagree,including me...

So what exactly was "taking it a trifle too far"?  Disagreeing with you?

Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.

Quote
I remember the skit that EDDIE MURPHY did spoofing how crazy White folx would act as ROCKY beat the Black fighters,whereas in real life brothas were whoopin off on everybody who stepped into the ring with them...including other brothas. I personally have experienced some questionable commentary by Wite people when they're talking amongst themselves when discussing how Rocky beat Clubber Lang ( "...and then he f*ckin goes and kicks that big f*ckin nigger's ass! IT WAS THE GREATEST sh*t I EVER SAW!" ...Other White guy:"OHHHH!! That sounds f*ckin KILLER!"  FIRST WHITE GUY:"GO SEE IT!  Go see the movie man,it's the greatest f*ckin sh*t you can ever f*ckin do! If Marciano was fukin alive,he'd kick ali's f*ckin ass AND he'd kick the livin sh*t outta Holmes too!"  OTHER WHITE GUY: "f*ckin right!'   you tend to remember exchanges like that when you're a kid and you don't see that many White folx where you live at AND you've been watching boxing since you were 3,practicing boxing and martial arts since you were 6 and 8,respectively.)

NEXT.

I loved COMING TO AMERICA and thought the barber shop scene was pure genius.  Murphy mocked both sides with that scene.  On the one hand, you had a white guy clinging to Marciano.  On the other, you had a black guy getting outrageous in his defense of Louis.  "Joe Louis was 87 years old!"  No matter how many times I see, I always laugh at that exchange.

I've experienced questionable and memorable commentary from people as well.  I'm going to remember this commentary about ROCKY, for example. ;)

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007, 12:42:10 pm »
Come on yall. I also remember the skit by Eddie Murphy that had the black guy go into the bank and get denied for the loan and then a shady white guy come in and the clerk looks to the left and then looks to the right and then without the white guy filling our any paper work, get a loan for as much as he wanted. This showed the genius of murphy as well as he was able to tell one joke and get both sides of the argument. Don't mind these two they are the two millitant midgets :) of the heffa forum. They keep us balanced and we try to keep them balanced as well. Rocky was the white/itallian man crack dream. Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible. I agree with our millitants on the board that some white guys probably took the movie too literlay but it is ironic that the tortoise and the hare fable comes true as we see the struggling white/ Russian/german/european boxer beat the lower of the totem pole black boxers not because they are straight up better but because we can actually make more money athletic wise in other endeavors. This fact more then any other support white folks notion that things are getting better for african americans when we barley have one black heavy weight. Secretly (whispering to yall) im glad. Imagine we don't have to get our brain beat out anymore to make a million. We can sing and dance to do it ;) just joking.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2007, 12:49:30 pm »
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.
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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2007, 01:00:08 pm »
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above. 

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.
-----------------------------
I don't think we have to know mr stallone to think that he would not employ black folks and say,you know what I am really trying to show in this scene the superiority of whites, so carl can you really play up my uberness and your limited ability. Ok so let's say that stallone "got away with this in rocky I and II," is mr. t of the gold wearing chain variety who did it as a statement about slavery going to say make me the canon foder for your movies. Well maybe, we did have step n fetchet but clearly imo stallone was indirectly pointing to the uberness of the black male fighter by making the arctypes of known boxers the standerd what which rocky had to overcome. He even made a pseudo statement abou the current state of boxing . I took mason dixon to be roy jones at his prime. As both were clearly good but did not have the competition to face. All boxing fans said if only he had fill in the blank to fight. Well that is what he gave us. Last point. Can any entertainer really make it 30 years in hollywood as a racist? Stallone aint at naacp dinners but I don't think he is at the support david duke ralleys either. Come on brothers let's put this energy some where else where it is more deserved.

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2007, 01:07:01 pm »
Quote
even if SYLVESTER himself doesn't subscribe to these notions,we aren't talking about him but the moviegoing public at the time.

Let's not try and pretend that you weren't talking about the movie-makers themselves as well.  Your post about ROCKY III wasn't especially subtle and you confirmed that it is a belief you hold.  That's fine.  You're entitled to that opinion.
Are you confusing your posters?  I don't recall supreme illuminati expressing an opinion about Rocky III much less one that is at odds with the underlined statement above.

Aren't we limited to talking about the movies and people's reactions to them?  Unless somebody knows Mr. Stallone personally.

It's on page 1.  He confirmed that he does believe there was a message of white superiority in the ROCKY movies.

I have no doubts that there are those who took satisfaction that a white man "beat that uppity negro's ass" in ROCKY II.  I also have no doubts that there are those who were ticked off that "a honkey mfer was shown beating a brother."  

What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.

Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2007, 01:14:50 pm »
Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible.

I agree with this 100%.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2007, 02:23:01 pm »
Stallion (sp) was paying us homage with the arctype of the ultimate man and was showing with hard work and determination you can do the impossible.

I agree with this 100%.

bluezulu, you're my moderator and one of the preeminent members of this forum. You have my respect all day long, everyday of the week.

The nazis referred to themselves as the "ultimate man" too, or something approximating that. WWII propaganda movies showing U.S. troops triumphing over the nazis served to illustrate to white America that if they just worked hard and were determined, they could "beat back the hun" and save the world. The same was true for the Russians. Remember the Soviet Red Army Hockey team and the U.S.A. Mike Eruzione-led Hockey team's so-called "Miracle On Ice"? Al Michaels nauseating call, "Do you believe in miracles??? Yes!!!!" If I never hear that again it will be too soon.

Yes, the Soviets were great. They were dominant. There is a penchant by many in this country for casting themselves as "David" to someone else's "Goliath". Recall the 1985 NCAA Basketball Championship between Rollie Massamino's Villanova team - which featured black and white players - vs John Thompson's "intimidating"  all-black Georgetown Hoya basketball team. They called it "Hoya Paranoia". The game took place years ago, but I can still remember Brent Musburger's enthusiastic call of the game that favored the underdog Villanova Wildcats. I thought that old man was going to have a sexual orgasm on t.v. after Villanova pulled off the upset of Georgetown.

I'm sure you remember the movie "Hoosiers". I never watched the movie all the way through, but I do remember that at the end, the team proved its mettle and redeemed its embattled coach by defeating an all-black high school basketball team in the climactic contest. The movie "8-Mile" was just another version of one of those stupid Rocky movies. The only difference being that the battling was done on a stage rather than in a boxing ring.

Do you remember the 1987 NBA Eastern Conference Finals, game 5 I believe it was, when Larry Bird's steal of an Isiah Thomas inbounds pass led to a Celtic victory over the Pistons and afterward when the mostly-white reporters were gushing about Bird's accomplishment, Isiah Thomas - who had heard more than enough of the praise for Bird - quipped that the reporters (and probably much of white America), must believe that black basketball players emerge from their mother's wombs dribbling basketballs. Thomas was saying that while white basketball players are often credited with being brainy and skilled players, that black players are dismissed as being "naturally gifted". That almost sounds like being called the "archtype of the ultimate man" to me. Many whites always set that standard. They go in to such contests against black opponents in athletic endeavors believing themselves to be the underdog because while they "work hard" and are "determined" they are often going against black athletes who are "naturally gifted, archtypes of the ultimate man."

What? Michael Jordan didn't have to work hard to become the best ever?
Muhammad Ali didn't have to work hard to become "The Greatest Of All Time"?

That's what many white people would have us believe.

Did you happen to watch the movie "Friday Night Lights"? The Dallas Carter High School football team - all-black naturally - were portrayed as big, powerful, athletic, arrogant, naturally-gifted bruisers who probably didn't have to work hard at all to be as great as they were. They were black athletes after all. Conversely, here's poor, "hard-working" and "determined" mostly-white Odessa Permian High School bravely bucking the odds and giving it all they have to defeat the "archtype of the ultimate man" in the guise of high school football players.

I'm going to leave this alone now. As you've said, I should get back to discussing the Panther and Panther-related topics. But I for one will NEVER believe that Stallone was attempting to  portray Creed and Lang as the "archtype" of anything other than what much of white America viewed Ali and Tyson to be. One was a flashy, unbeatable big mouth and the other was an unstoppable destroyer. Stallone's intent was to thrill white audiences by allowing them to indulge in the fantasy of watching both of those types of fighters receive their comeuppance at the hands of a white, Italian club brawler.

I'm done now  ;)
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2007, 03:41:23 pm »
What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.
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Offline Jonathanos

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2007, 04:28:08 pm »
What I doubt is that there was an underlying message of white superiority in the ROCKY films.
My point is that intent is not required for such a message to be perceived.  So, in a sense, the message is in the eye of the beholder.

If you go in looking for something you'll find it.

Offline sharcque

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2007, 04:33:00 pm »
Tyson wasn't even really big-time yet when Rocky III came out, was he?

Offline sharcque

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Re: Black Panther vs Apollo Creed
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2007, 04:42:08 pm »
The white man was unable to defeat Muhammad Ali in the boxing ring, nor were they able to do so in their courts of law where all of the odds were stacked in their favor. So where else could those white people who desperately wanted to see a white man deliver a beat down to Muhammad Ali turn to in order to see this happen? The realm of fantasy is where. Rocky Balboa - a character Stallone based upon the club fighter Chuck "The Bleeder" Wepner (who still maintains that he wasn't adequately compensated by Stallone for the use of his true life experience as the basis for the Rocky movies...that have become beyond nonsensical at this point if you ask me) - twice fights Apollo Creed - a character clearly based on Muhammad Ali. The first fight ends in a narrow victory for Creed. The rematch ends in a manner that is even more unbelievable and more stupid than the ending of their first fight. However, the result allowed those white fans who simply HAD to see Muhammad Ali - or someone enough like Ali to BE Ali - lose to a white fighter, to revel in that fantasy come true on the big screen.

I think you're giving Stallone way too much intellectual credit.  Dude didn't put any symbolism into his movies.  He's too dumb for that.